00:01:28 <sbp> * sbp wonders where the logs go now
00:01:32 <sbp> .time
00:01:32 <datum> Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:01:32 GMT
00:01:53 <sbp> ah, 11. good
00:03:07 <thelsdj> its funny that in moving to arizona, i'm not as much bothered by being 2 hours off from EST (where i used to live) but that i'm 7 hours of GMT rather than 5
00:04:15 <sbp> heh!
00:04:27 <sbp> what's most affecting you about being further off of GMT?
00:05:02 <thelsdj> for one thing i'm used to the essential mix being on at 9pm but now i have to remember its 7pm lol
00:05:33 <thelsdj> ie 2am in england
00:05:44 <AaronSw> great, now the locking isn't working at all
00:05:45 <sbp> that's so great
00:05:52 <sbp> I should make you an honourary European
00:05:55 <sbp> well, Brit
00:06:20 <thelsdj> i've been plotting how to get out of this damn country
00:06:40 <sbp> * sbp found that a plane ticket worked for him
00:06:43 <AaronSw> oh, never mind. ir was lockf
00:07:58 <sbp> Aaron: I'm doing the experiment about folder uniqueness that you mentioned on my own websites
00:08:37 <sbp> hmm... what's the easiest way to print out duplicate lines in a sorted file...
00:08:47 <sbp> ah, uniq -d
00:09:19 <thelsdj> whats this folder uniqueness experiment?
00:09:49 <sbp> $ wc -l web-folders.txt
00:09:49 <sbp> 613 web-folders.txt
00:09:52 <sbp> $ uniq -d web-folders.txt | wc -l
00:09:52 <sbp> 79
00:09:57 <sbp> hang on and I'll explain...
00:10:15 <AaronSw> ok, but a lot of that's stuff like index.html and style.css
00:10:24 <sbp> $ python -c "print (79.0/613)*100"
00:10:25 <sbp> 12.8874388254
00:10:31 <sbp> no. it only counts the directories
00:10:50 <sbp> I did find web -name '*' -type d
00:11:24 <AaronSw> that doesn't sound right. what's uniq -cd say?
00:11:44 <AaronSw> err uniq -cd | sort -rn
00:12:05 <sbp> mainly two
00:12:08 <sbp> the most is nine
00:12:20 <sbp> nine "test" folders, nine "notes" folders
00:12:39 <AaronSw> hm. it'd be cool if you published the output
00:12:46 <AaronSw> i'd be curious to see it
00:12:51 <sbp> sure. hang on
00:13:25 <sbp> http://infomesh.net/200X/web-dupes-count.txt
00:13:50 <AaronSw> if most of them are 2 then you can slap a 2 on the end of the name and be fine
00:13:52 <sbp> this is across 11 sites
00:13:55 <sbp> heh, heh
00:14:22 <AaronSw> oh, this is 13% duplicated, so most of the time you're fine
00:14:36 <AaronSw> across sites isn't really fair either
00:14:54 <AaronSw> but 87% success is pretty good
00:14:57 <sbp> it's pretty fair. I'm doing this because I'm thinking about just having one account
00:15:01 <sbp> spin!
00:15:06 <sbp> 87% fat free!
00:15:11 <sbp> :-)
00:15:32 <AaronSw> seriously, if you only needed to think about a better name 13% of the time, i think that's success
00:15:36 <sbp> www doesn't really count--you can strike that one
00:15:47 <sbp> yeah, it's not *bad*
00:15:49 <AaronSw> neither do all the date dirs
00:15:55 <AaronSw> right?
00:15:59 <sbp> plus I wouldn't actually be having it completely flat
00:16:02 <sbp> nope, they don't either
00:16:16 <sbp> though there's only two, oddly
00:16:28 <AaronSw> i see more than 2
00:16:34 <sbp> months don't count
00:17:14 <AaronSw> why do you have two pwyky dirs
00:17:23 <AaronSw> and a lot of these are duplications across months which would be one dir normally
00:17:27 <AaronSw> so those don't count
00:17:31 <AaronSw> nor do duplications across sites
00:17:33 <sbp> one on infomesh for the code, one on f2o for the test
00:17:46 <sbp> that's a possibility
00:17:49 <AaronSw> that doesn't count
00:17:58 <sbp> I'd guesstimate that the actual figure would be a half, maybe a third of this
00:18:05 <sbp> yeah it does
00:18:05 <AaronSw> i don't think many of these are real conflicts
00:18:11 <sbp> I *would* want two dirs for pwyky
00:18:18 <AaronSw> why?
00:18:23 <AaronSw> oh, i see
00:18:27 <sbp> compare http://infomesh.net/2... right
00:18:43 <sbp> pwyky-doc would be good, or pwyky-test
00:18:59 <sbp> my-pwyky for pwyky-test
00:19:03 <sbp> * sbp shrugs
00:19:11 <AaronSw> i declare victory
00:19:18 <sbp> the problem is, if you choose a crap name, you're stuck with it for years
00:19:21 <AaronSw> but i still hate flock, grr
00:19:30 <AaronSw> sbp, redirects
00:19:36 <sbp> I really just want to rm -rf everything and start again
00:19:37 <sbp> bleh
00:19:42 <sbp> then I have to maintain old and new
00:19:47 <sbp> through fiddly redirects
00:19:48 <AaronSw> ?
00:20:00 <sbp> I mean, delete all the websites, not the stuff
00:20:04 <sbp> and make a new structure
00:20:34 <AaronSw> i don't understand the old and new complaint. you put a couple things in msci, realize it'd be better called misc, move the things to misc and redirect msci to misc
00:20:54 <sbp> so you have to maintain the redirect file
00:20:54 <AaronSw> (if mod_speling doesn't do it for you)
00:20:57 <sbp> heh
00:21:12 <AaronSw> maintain the redirect file? you add a line each time you rename a directory
00:21:14 <AaronSw> not hard
00:21:21 <sbp> you must admit it'd be cleaner if you got it right the first time
00:21:35 <AaronSw> or, if you have an ideal web server, you do:
00:21:35 <AaronSw> mv msci misc
00:21:35 <AaronSw> ln -s misc msci
00:21:46 <sbp> then people don't have to worry about which location is definitive, or update their links if the redirect is via HTTP perm moved response
00:21:50 <AaronSw> of course it's cleaner not to leave msci around, but i don't see it as a problem
00:22:11 <sbp> might be if you want to use msci in the future
00:22:23 <sbp> it's not so much a problem for me, but look at a site the size of W3C
00:22:27 <AaronSw> so then you just redirect those files
00:22:28 <sbp> and it could be a problem for me
00:22:34 <sbp> I need to go through this list more carefully
00:22:42 <sbp> hmm
00:22:56 <sbp> then you have two projects sharing one directory
00:22:58 <thelsdj> i have my rss file scp'd to my hosting provider hourly from my home machine and then ln -s'd like 3 times because i changed my weblog a few times before and changed the directory hah
00:23:12 <AaronSw> you don't have two projects, you have a project and a ghost
00:23:17 <AaronSw> it's a haunted directory
00:23:21 <sbp> hehheh
00:23:33 <sbp> * sbp likes the concept, and likes thelsdj's illustration
00:23:52 <sbp> I don't know what it is about haunted directories...
00:23:55 <sbp> they just spook me
00:24:01 <AaronSw> heh
00:24:16 <AaronSw> thelsdj, with ln -s you should only need to do it once
00:24:34 <thelsdj> between 2 websites i have 7 duplicates but basically they are just mirrors of what i have on my home machine's /var/www
00:25:15 <sbp> I like how vorpal has a web folder. I have that too but in a different place
00:25:23 <sbp> neither of us use apache's default location
00:25:31 <sbp> nor do we use each other's location
00:25:37 <thelsdj> hah
00:25:40 <thelsdj> i use the default on debian
00:25:59 <sbp> and plenty of people can't decide between /usr/local/bin and /usr/bin and /opt for e.g. firefox
00:26:42 <thelsdj> i've always said /opt is evil
00:27:06 <thelsdj> if i install from a binary package for my distro then it goes in /usr if its from source or a 3rd party binary its /usr/local
00:27:09 <sbp> in fact, now I just ln it to my home tools directory, so that it doesn't have root priviliges
00:27:25 <AaronSw> when i do-over vorpal, i'm going to use /public
00:27:27 <AaronSw> ala djb
00:27:28 <sbp> but that's a problem since to install XPI extensions you have to run a su copy
00:27:35 <sbp> do-over?
00:27:42 <AaronSw> sorry, redo
00:27:43 <sbp> thelsdj: I agree that /opt is evil
00:28:01 <thelsdj> who's silly idea was opt in the first place?
00:28:13 <sbp> thelsdj: so where would you put python? where would you put firefox?
00:28:34 <sbp> $idiot
00:28:52 <thelsdj> depends on how i install it, i haven't installed firefox because i'm waiting for a debian package
00:29:01 <thelsdj> i also have python installed from debian package
00:29:04 <thelsdj> so its all /usr
00:29:08 <sbp> I think I prefer web, Aaron. why /public? just because djb's using it?
00:29:18 <AaronSw> yes
00:29:19 <sbp> hmm
00:29:23 <thelsdj> small apps that compile to just like 1 binary file i usually put in ~/bin
00:29:31 <AaronSw> and because it's not just for web
00:29:33 <thelsdj> or scripts i've written
00:30:02 <sbp> I'm quite disappointed I got sbp instead of miscoranda.com
00:30:07 <thelsdj> i have some weird scripts in my ~/bin that i don't even remember the purpose of
00:30:13 <sbp> it's like "you're never getting another folder here ever. muahahahaha!"
00:30:27 <sbp> plus I can never remember
00:30:32 <sbp> plus I use domain names
00:30:36 <sbp> but really I should use /http
00:30:42 <sbp> instead of /web... I think
00:30:58 <sbp> thelsdj: ooh!
00:30:58 <thelsdj> hmmm ripper.py now whats that
00:31:06 <sbp> publish them, publish them, publish them
00:31:15 <sbp> I'm obsessed with people's ~/bin scripts lately
00:31:43 <sbp> I have about 100, and I'm currently going through them and smartening them up for release
00:31:49 <thelsdj> ah ok, now i remember, it takes an mp3 and two time signatures and outputs a wav file of the audio between the time sigs (currently you have to put in the exact # of milliseconds
00:32:02 <sbp> oh great!
00:32:09 <sbp> see that's the kind of thing I wanna see :-)
00:33:01 <sbp> cd && tar -cf bin.tar bin && gzip -9 bin.tar && send-to-www-archive bin.tar.gz
00:33:32 <sbp> echo K PLZ THX
00:33:59 <thelsdj> ok now i have no fucking clue what this one is
00:34:17 <thelsdj> http://jane.no-ip.com/BINiebabies/findstrange.pl
00:34:26 <sbp> * sbp thinks this is a lesson to document your code
00:35:06 <thelsdj> ooh right
00:35:17 <thelsdj> it looks at a list of mp3 filenames and outputs the ones that don't fit to known naming standards
00:35:41 <sbp> odd. I think someone on #joiito was asking us to debug some very similar code recently
00:38:09 <thelsdj> http://jane.no-ip.com/BINiebabies/ is the scripts in my ~/bin that i wrote, theres lots of other weird scripts all over my ~/ and /var/www
00:40:11 <sbp> thanks!
00:40:14 <thelsdj> i took too long to release intelliaudio, just the other day i noticed an app in debian that does the exact same thing
00:40:22 <verbosus> *** verbosus has quit ("Client exiting")
00:40:35 <thelsdj> and probably much better heh
00:41:01 <thelsdj> actually i think intelliaudio has a freshmeat page, along with one i wrote called projdiary
00:41:30 <thelsdj> projdiary took a look at an advogato project and output an html pages of the last N diary entry for each memeber of the project
00:42:19 <AaronSw> sbp, should I publish my currently reading list?
00:42:27 <Jaramir> hello there :o)
00:42:52 <sbp> * sbp finds his proxy MIME$ hack working wonderfully
00:42:56 <sbp> AaronSw: of course!
00:42:58 <sbp> hi there Jaramir
00:43:25 <Jaramir> :o)
00:44:33 <AaronSw> http://www.allconsuming.net/xml/users/currently_reading.aaronsw.js
00:44:53 <sbp> er
00:45:01 <Jaramir> document.write?
00:45:13 <sbp> * sbp uses text/html$ on it... so great
00:45:46 <AaronSw> MIME$?
00:45:46 <sbp> try http://allconsuming.net/weblog.cgi?url=http://www.aaronsw.com/
00:45:50 <sbp> yeah
00:46:30 <sbp> I set up proxy so that when I come across a file like http://example.org/perl.pl and it's being served with some very stupid MIME type, I can visit http://text_plain$example.org/perl.pl to rectify the problem
00:46:35 <Jaramir> cool, "watches weblogs for books" :o)
00:46:36 <sbp> dirty, dirty hack but it works so well...
00:46:55 <Jaramir> just curios how many are reading LoTR..
00:46:57 <AaronSw> hm, the js is missing a book
00:47:02 <sbp> read it
00:47:03 <sbp> yeah
00:48:12 <AaronSw> Hm, I don't get the cover of this map book
00:48:33 <thelsdj> ah interface
00:48:36 <thelsdj> that book rocks
00:48:49 <thelsdj> make sure to check out the other "stephen bury" book cobweb
00:52:04 <Jaramir> seeya!
00:52:07 <AaronSw> Douglas Allchin: '
00:52:07 <AaronSw> By the end, the reader is well prepared to appreciate the cover image: a shadow of Pinnochio's profile cast across the arcadian "Meadowdale Estates," surrounded by poisionous sites.'
00:52:15 <sbp> hmm. perhaps the best classification scheme is the one that results in the least cross-directory links for other classifications
00:52:20 <Jaramir> *** Jaramir is now known as Jara[zZ]
00:52:24 <sbp> c'ya Jara[zZ]
00:52:52 <sbp> * sbp wonders how to easily measure that
00:53:20 <AaronSw> hierarchical classification schemes are stupid
00:54:14 <AaronSw> rave reviews: "This book was my sole reading material on a camping trip, and if it hadn't been a gift from a friend, I would have used it, page by page, to add heat to the campfire."
00:55:10 <AaronSw> Another review is entirely about the overuse of the elipse in the book
00:55:25 <thelsdj> bahaha
00:58:28 <thelsdj> http://allconsuming.net/weblog.cgi?url=http://jane.no-ip.com/blog/
01:00:05 <sbp> ah, it seems that you need subsets in order to optimize
01:00:28 <sbp> because it doesn't matter how *many* are cross-categories, it's how many cross-categories there are
01:02:08 <sbp> this is my test set: [[[
01:02:08 <sbp> n3s - sw code
01:02:09 <sbp> swintro - sw doc
01:02:09 <sbp> htmlhistory - other doc
01:02:09 <sbp> bproxy - other code
01:02:09 <sbp> wypy - other code
01:02:11 <sbp> cwminfo - sw doc
01:02:13 <sbp> swhackfaq - other doc
01:02:15 <sbp> pwyky - other code
01:02:17 <sbp> enquire - other doc
01:02:19 <sbp> pyrple - sw code
01:02:21 <sbp> ]]]
01:02:25 <sbp> and my two example classifications:
01:02:27 <sbp> i.
01:02:29 <sbp> /sw - n3s swintro cwminfo pyrple
01:02:31 <sbp> /other - htmlhistory bproxy wypy pwyky enquire swhackfaq
01:02:33 <sbp> ii.
01:02:35 <sbp> /doc - swintro htmlhistory cwminfo swhackfaq enquire
01:02:37 <sbp> /code - n3s bproxy wypy pwyky pyrple
01:03:42 <deltab> there's a discussion on xdg-list at the moment about whether mathematics is a science
01:03:53 <deltab> sbp: makes sense
01:04:08 <thelsdj> what is xdg-list's normal topic?
01:04:08 <sbp> of course, the /doc page could be split up across sw and other... hmm...
01:04:22 <sbp> .google xdg-list
01:04:23 <datum> xdg-list: https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/xdg-list
01:04:41 <sbp> that sounds pretty hillarious
01:04:52 <deltab> thelsdj: freedesktop standards
01:05:41 <thelsdj> haha
01:06:14 <thelsdj> hmm the archives don't show february
01:06:51 <sbp> * sbp tries https://listman.redhat.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=mathematics+science&ps=20&o=0&m=all&wm=wrd&wf=222210&ul=%2Farchives%2Fxdg-list to no avail
01:07:33 <sbp> hmm
01:07:48 <sbp> perhaps I could have a central list of project names and their keywords
01:08:12 <sbp> so for example, I could then have n3s at /n3s, but because its profile is "sw code", it'd also appear in /sw and /code
01:08:32 <sbp> (and display its other keywords and links to those lists)
01:08:43 <deltab> you could replace 'other' by 'needs better categorization'
01:08:51 <sbp> heh. yes...
01:09:08 <sbp> though then it'd turn up in /needs, /better, and /categorization :-)
01:09:35 <sbp> in fact, other could just be deleted
01:10:01 <sbp> so "swintro - sw doc; htmlhistory - doc; pwyky - code" etc.
01:10:28 <sbp> as long as they turn up on *one* of the pages, that's fine
01:10:50 <sbp> so really it's classes and instances
01:11:03 <sbp> /n3s is an instance folder, belonging to both /sw and /code
01:11:21 <sbp> which implies that I should have a /folder class... :-)
01:11:36 <sbp> (actually, that's not a bad idea: but /categories or /keywords would be better)
01:11:57 <sbp> ugh. class plural problem
01:12:46 <thelsdj> http://euclid.trentu.ca/math/sb/misc/mathsci.html
01:15:44 <sbp> hmm. /index
01:18:26 <thelsdj> the root directory of my website is such a mess, the one on my home box has 139 files/dirs at the first level
01:18:41 <sbp> yeah. that's a problem with this scheme
01:18:45 <sbp> mess at the first level...
01:18:57 <sbp> the problem is: 7+/-2
01:19:05 <sbp> or is that 5+/-2...
01:19:09 <thelsdj> the one on my hosting service has 112 at the first level heh
01:19:26 <sbp> in any case, anything in double digits is bad for choosing and browsing
01:19:41 <thelsdj> basically my problem is i just drop stuff in there so people can see it and never really bother to sort it much
01:19:44 <sbp> and anything in 1,2,3 is a waste of space
01:19:56 <sbp> yeah
01:20:02 <sbp> I guess that's what 200X is for
01:20:12 <sbp> and misc for d8uv, and 2002 for Aaron since he doesn't increment
01:20:27 <sbp> more of a problem for local filesystems, though
01:20:41 <sbp> since on the web you rarely see straight directory lists
01:20:54 <sbp> well, you do, but they're stupid and not required
01:21:15 <thelsdj> that'd be interesting, always have the front page of your website be basically a directory listing to force yourself to sort it
01:21:25 <sbp> hmm. yeah
01:21:46 <sbp> I've always admired Hickson and Syrreni's sorting procedures
01:21:48 <deltab> a good thing about folders on the Mac and Amiga is that you can visually group icons
01:21:53 <sbp> but their sites still look horrid
01:22:10 <deltab> Windows too? I can't remember
01:22:12 <sbp> hmm. screenshot example, deltab?
01:22:19 <sbp> you can group icons by type
01:22:24 <thelsdj> OS X isn't as good as mac used to be for that because it wastes too much space between icons
01:22:38 <sbp> (type meaning file extension)
01:22:47 <deltab> I mean you can move them into a clump
01:23:21 <sbp> there's no fixed grid if that's what you mean...
01:23:27 <deltab> right
01:23:37 <sbp> (unless you turn on auto-arrange)
01:23:41 <deltab> and things stay where you put them
01:23:44 <sbp> yeah
01:23:47 <thelsdj> windows only does that well on the desktop i think
01:23:55 <sbp> yeah...
01:24:49 <thelsdj> i wonder if anyone is still using the rss scraper i wrote for suprnova.org months ago, i'm not even sure it still works
01:24:55 <sbp> we need huge flexible 150 degree 3ft high touch screen monitors, really
01:25:00 <sbp> it'd allow some great interfaces
01:25:02 <thelsdj> definatly
01:25:23 <deltab> I once read about making pipelines using Mac folders
01:25:43 <sbp> .google pipelines using Mac folders
01:25:44 <datum> pipelines using Mac folders: http://www.osxfaq.com/Tutorials/LearningCenter/
01:25:52 <sbp> doesn't look promising
01:26:07 <deltab> you put the filters in a line, then drop something onto the program at the end
01:26:32 <deltab> the programs examine the window they're in and their names to work out what to do
01:26:42 <deltab> it was a DDJ article
01:28:22 <sbp> aha: http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=961/ddj9605b/
01:28:56 <arcon> what's wrong with heirarchal classification?
01:29:06 <arcon> doh, damn scroll bar ;P
01:29:11 <sbp> hierarchies are evil
01:29:22 <arcon> how so?
01:29:37 <thelsdj> i think hierarchies are only evil if the interface to access them is evil
01:29:40 <sbp> see above!
01:29:46 <arcon> damn ;P
01:29:57 <sbp> more accurately, being forced to use hierarchies is evil
01:30:07 <sbp> some applications are naturally hierarchial
01:30:20 <sbp> but for things like website organization, keywords seem to be much more natural
01:30:32 <sbp> arcon: look at my sw & other vs. code & doc example
01:30:40 <sbp> and my proposed keyword-ish solution
01:30:43 <deltab> I've also set up pipelines on the icon bar in RISC OS; but the programs weren't connected: I had to drag the output of each into the next
01:30:59 <sbp> hehe. manual pipelining
01:31:46 <deltab> yeah, but easier because the icons were in order :-)
01:31:57 <deltab> less far to drag too
01:32:09 <sbp> that should've been an article
01:32:32 <sbp> I think that now you've released code, the next thing you need to do is an article
01:32:52 <sbp> and I want to see Python code too
01:33:06 <deltab> about what?
01:33:29 <arcon> so the problem with heirarchies are the lock you into a solid definition?
01:33:40 <sbp> hey, you can write the next miscoranda post about hierarchives and file organization if you want :-)
01:33:48 <sbp> * sbp tries to think of a serious suggestion...
01:33:56 <sbp> I'm not sure. what're you into at the moment?
01:34:16 <deltab> sbp: that's something I've thought about quite a bit
01:34:19 <sbp> arcon: yeah. you only expose one possible view of the system, and often you want a different view
01:34:36 <sbp> then you should have a good answer!
01:34:43 <deltab> sbp: most recently in response to http://bigfractaltangle.com/archive/2004/02/09.jsp
01:34:46 <arcon> so what if you use a heirarchial tree for storing with a semantic map on top?
01:34:56 <arcon> like a database with views
01:35:16 <deltab> arcon: why have the tree?
01:35:28 <arcon> because you need a way to store the data without duplication?
01:35:50 <arcon> for example, I use a heirarchy to store files locally
01:35:52 <sbp> sorry, I misunderstood what you were responding to
01:35:59 <arcon> Images, Movies, Notes, Programs, etc.
01:36:01 <sbp> but still... that's even more interesting
01:36:29 <arcon> I have been playing with giving the fles semantic references so I can browse them by meaning instead of heirarcy
01:36:45 <arcon> I could store them by meaning but initially (before they are given meaning) I won't have a place to store them
01:36:56 <arcon> heh , s/fles/files/
01:37:15 <sbp> also, people are loathe to add metadata
01:37:22 <arcon> plus, if a file has multiple meanings it would have to be stored in two locations...
01:37:28 <sbp> Seth Nickell found this with GNOME storage: you have to glean the data from the files themselves
01:37:51 <arcon> isn't a heirarcy like a minimal for of metadata?
01:37:55 <sbp> so my advice is that, for example, Notes is redundant because each note you make should just be in a file that has two attributes: its creation time and its content
01:38:00 <sbp> yes
01:38:08 <sbp> but it's a bad one
01:38:18 <arcon> what would be a better way to store my files?
01:38:31 <sbp> probably nothing on current OSes
01:38:34 <sbp> I have to sadly admit
01:38:37 <arcon> heh
01:38:45 <arcon> continue witht eh NOtes bit, I'm interested
01:38:50 <deltab> sbp: depends on the interface - if it's lots of fill-in-this-form, yes
01:38:56 <arcon> currently my notes are just a date and content, the date is the file name
01:38:56 <sbp> well, for example, I have this program on my computer:
01:39:14 <sbp> [[[
01:39:14 <sbp> $ cat note
01:39:15 <sbp> #!/bin/sh
01:39:15 <sbp> # Don't forget that cygwin sh is actually ash--irritating
01:39:15 <sbp> DATETIME=$(date +%Y%m%d-%H%M%S)
01:39:15 <sbp> echo "$@" > ${HOME}/notes/${DATETIME}.txt
01:39:17 <sbp> echo Made note at ~/notes/${DATETIME}.txt
01:39:19 <sbp> ]]]
01:39:31 <sbp> snap
01:39:41 <arcon> ok, that's very similar to my process
01:39:56 <sbp> I didn't always do it that way, though
01:40:06 <sbp> in fact, I have an entire article floating about on the "other" way
01:40:29 <sbp> in fact, I worked solidly for half a year on the notes problem
01:40:40 <arcon> hehe, I am just starting to fuss over it
01:40:41 <sbp> produced thousands of lines of code to try to get somewhere on it
01:41:00 <deltab> sbp: wow, you're worse than Morbus :-)
01:41:04 <arcon> hehehe
01:41:10 <arcon> that's bad
01:41:30 <sbp> it basically came down to discussing it with shellac et al. in Bristol and realising that I needed to rewrite the OS
01:41:34 <arcon> I am currently working on something to 'glue' together my 'cruft' - notes, misc files, etc.
01:42:04 <arcon> since I host some sites locally my plan was to have my notes be fed into an app that would make them simple xml fragments
01:42:07 <sbp> arcon: did you see what I was talking about the other day, attempting to annotate files based on their iNodes?
01:42:11 <sbp> er, inodes. heh
01:42:14 <sbp> Mac moment there
01:42:20 <arcon> then the files would be in a dir and a script would throw it all onto a webpage
01:42:29 <arcon> sbp, nope, I missed that
01:42:29 <sbp> well, Apple
01:42:33 <arcon> I was in and out a lot yesterday
01:42:41 <sbp> XML fragments? hmm
01:42:59 <arcon> like, the xml would be <note date="xxxx"></note>
01:43:03 <sbp> anyway, the basic idea is that you'd be able to assign notes and keywords and so forth to files
01:43:06 <arcon> with something in the note of course
01:43:12 <sbp> please... don't both with XML for *that*
01:43:14 <arcon> and an xsl to transform that into a page
01:43:14 <sbp> er, bother
01:43:17 <sbp> ew
01:43:30 <thelsdj> sbp, i think 200_ would be good instead of 200X heh
01:43:39 <arcon> I was tring to keep it 'code free'
01:43:41 <sbp> <date> <space> <entry> would be so much easier
01:43:46 <sbp> XSLT is code
01:43:52 <arcon> I could just have it spit out html fragments
01:43:55 <sbp> thelsdj: suggestion noted... :-)
01:44:22 <sbp> xalan sometransform.xsl is no different to perl somescript.pl
01:44:25 <thelsdj> its a lot better than 200- or 200 i think
01:44:25 <arcon> I've been doing a craplod of playing around with xml/xslt and it kind of leaked in to be honest
01:44:45 <sbp> * sbp advises strongly against it
01:44:52 <arcon> I waws planning on having the browser parse it
01:45:04 <sbp> using XML where XML is not needed is a very bad thing to get started on
01:45:08 <sbp> even worse for RDF
01:45:11 <arcon> hehe
01:45:33 <sbp> huge Keep It Simple Stupid violation
01:45:44 <arcon> so then if I stick with a flat file and the date as the name, and use something to parse that into a web page of all my notes that's fine
01:45:49 <sbp> XML is the anti-KISS
01:45:57 <arcon> the concept is a bigger concern than the implementaiton
01:45:58 <sbp> yeah
01:46:02 <deltab> sbp: except where is n't, yes
01:46:04 <sbp> yeah
01:46:10 <arcon> true dat, XML is never simple
01:46:23 <deltab> it can be simpler than the alternative
01:46:24 <sbp> yeah. XML is useful sometimes...
01:47:05 <deltab> if you want to combine data from many files, it's probably easy if they're in XML rather than each in its own format
01:47:19 <deltab> er, easier
01:47:27 <sbp> hmm
01:47:29 <arcon> in this case they would all be in text format, I rarely find the need for markup of notes
01:47:39 <arcon> they are 90% brain dump before I forget it
01:48:00 <sbp> not so sure about that. if you look at complex XML applications that need to be merged, you find you still basically need an application for parsing each of them into a better condition
01:48:18 <sbp> format probably makes it a little worse
01:48:30 <sbp> I'm just saying it's not as much of a solution as it seems
01:48:43 <sbp> I think back to the infoset-in-RDF things...
01:48:44 <arcon> xml enforces parsing standardization, not content standardization
01:48:56 <arcon> tha'ts the problem I run into
01:49:01 <sbp> yeah
01:49:15 <deltab> why do you want to describe an infoset in RDF?
01:49:42 <sbp> deltab: because then you can manipulate XML files using RDF rules
01:49:48 <sbp> it's pure joy
01:50:00 <deltab> yeah, but is someone actually doing that?
01:50:05 <sbp> yeah me
01:50:07 <sbp> and Connolly
01:50:11 <deltab> ah, what for?
01:50:25 <sbp> well it never really worked all that well because CWM is so buggy
01:50:31 <sbp> but I was aiming for validation
01:50:42 <sbp> not sure what DanC was doing--a hundred and one things
01:50:45 <deltab> * deltab nods
01:50:53 <deltab> makes sense
01:51:15 <deltab> validation being about whether something satisfies rules
01:51:22 <sbp> I even wrote a schema language for it, and it wasn't bad. I think it was back when you had DTD or WXS, and so I aimed somewhere in between--I guess I got roughly into RELAX NG territory
01:51:24 <sbp> right
01:51:38 <sbp> it's like schematron, done properly
01:51:52 <sbp> .google XSLIR
01:51:53 <datum> XSLIR: http://infomesh.net/2002/03-10xslir/README.html
01:52:03 <sbp> there you go. implementation bad, concept good
01:52:18 <deltab> what benefits does it bring?
01:52:32 <sbp> the schema language is documented here: http://infomesh.net/2002/03-10xslir/xslir.n3
01:52:47 <sbp> actually, I think that the main benefit was just in that the schema language didn't suck
01:52:58 <sbp> the RDF side of it was a terrible pain in the ass, obviously, because it didn't work
01:53:06 <sbp> on the other hand: the model had to be made very clear
01:53:11 <sbp> so it wasn't as arbitrary
01:53:47 <deltab> and it didn't work because of problems with cwm?
01:53:56 <sbp> RDF forces you to think from the model first, and that's much better than retrofitting meaning to a syntax. for example, even the infoset itself was created *after* XML 1.0 syntax, and I think if the infoset had come first, it would've lessened a lot of the PI etc. crap
01:53:59 <sbp> yes
01:54:17 <sbp> there were some horrible list handling bugs which probably haven't even been fixed yet
01:54:35 <sbp> I filed some bugs when I started to run into them, but the deeper I got, the worse the bugs
01:54:43 <sbp> and eventually there was no way to work around it
01:54:51 <deltab> what sort of things?
01:55:08 <sbp> [[[
01:55:08 <sbp> There are a few little workarounds in the code (some of them due to
01:55:08 <sbp> quite severe bugs in CWM)
01:55:13 <sbp> ]]] - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-logic/2002Mar/0008
01:55:16 <sbp> just searching... 'ang on
01:56:07 <sbp> this looks like one relevant one: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2002Mar/0024
01:57:16 <deltab> * deltab watches Enterprise
01:57:26 <sbp> don't blame you
01:57:59 <arcon> heh, time to go find some dinner and hack on some stuff ;)
02:01:34 <thelsdj> I so hate people who don't provide a feed that has the full text of their posts
02:02:03 <sbp> heh, yeah
02:02:13 <sbp> * sbp is glad to say that he provides the full text of his
02:02:19 <sbp> but I worry that it's too much
02:02:20 <sbp> oh well
02:02:22 <thelsdj> yes you do
02:02:24 <thelsdj> * thelsdj pets
02:02:28 <sbp> heh, heh
02:02:54 <thelsdj> hmm up to 24 subscriptions in my latest attempt at following my aggregator
02:03:12 <sbp> cool
02:06:32 <thelsdj> * thelsdj continually reloads the usps.com tracking page
02:07:57 <Ash> splodge: stop
02:13:22 <sbp> hi Morbus
02:13:28 <sbp> * sbp blogs Jim's PUT wiki: http://miscoranda.com/88
02:13:29 <Ash> splodge: OFF
02:13:35 <Ash> splodge: OFF
02:13:48 <sbp> splodge: on
02:13:50 <Ash> splodge: on
02:13:51 <Ash> splodge: on
02:13:51 <Ash> splodge: on
02:13:51 <sbp> heh, heh
02:13:51 <Ash> splodge: on
02:13:51 <Ash> splodge: on
02:13:54 <Ash> splodge: on
02:13:59 <Ash> splodge: on
02:14:01 <Ash> splodge: on
02:14:07 <Ash> are you logging or what, splodge
02:14:09 <Ash> MAKE UP YOUR MIND
02:14:11 <sbp> Morbus: your call has been registered
02:14:21 <sbp> Morbus: please call back later for confirmation
02:14:29 <sbp> * sbp waits for Ash to be done
02:14:39 <sbp> ...
02:14:41 <sbp> ...
02:14:43 <sbp> ...
02:14:46 <sbp> lalala
02:14:48 <sbp> LALALALALA
02:15:02 <sbp> splodge, grep LALALALA
02:15:07 <splodge> I'm logging. I found 2 answers for 'LALALALA'
02:15:08 <splodge> 0) 2004-02-11 02:15:02 <sbp> splodge, grep LALALALA
02:15:09 <splodge> 1) 2004-02-11 02:14:48 <sbp> LALALALALA
02:15:12 <thelsdj> hmmm heres an interesting concept, i don't want all my mp3s to sit in my web dir, but i'm always sharing a list of them with people so i'm always doing a 'find /mnt/data/mp3 > /var/www/mp3s.txt' or 'find /mnt/data/mp3/Mixed > /var/www/mixes.txt" i wonder if anyones built a general mechanism for keeping up to date lists of files but not allowing access to the files themselves
02:15:25 <sbp> man. I'm going to be checking like very hour now to see if it's loggign
02:15:49 <sbp> thelsdj: just set up a cron job to do that or something
02:15:53 <sbp> Morbus: what's the problem?
02:16:03 <Morbus> i'm back to my old two column problem.
02:16:08 <sbp> ah
02:16:12 <Morbus> need both columns the same height.
02:16:16 <sbp> oh man
02:16:23 <sbp> that's easy enough
02:16:32 <Morbus> example?
02:17:44 <sbp> sure. hang
02:18:38 <thelsdj> sbp, sure but what if someone wants a list of my trance mp3s? i don't want to have a cron job for every possible list
02:18:55 <sbp> ah, I see
02:19:06 <sbp> can you extract the data from the files?
02:19:17 <thelsdj> i've already got them sorted in folders
02:19:41 <thelsdj> so what i'd want is a general purpose web tool that when given a dir would recursivly list all files
02:19:48 <thelsdj> i was just curious if it'd been already done
02:20:35 <d8uv> *** d8uv (d8uv@16-67-237-24.gci.net) has joined #swhack
02:20:44 <d8uv> Liquid Molten Death.
02:21:28 <thelsdj> reminds me of my drink idea, 'Death on the Rocks'
02:22:21 <sbp> feck
02:22:28 <sbp> I know I saw a damn good example somewhere
02:24:21 <thelsdj> 2 oz. arsenic, 3 oz. sweet & sour, 3 oz. coke, 2 ice cubes
02:24:24 <sbp> Morbus: whyn't use a standard like http://glish.com/css/9.asp ?
02:24:55 <Morbus> sbp: because the sidebar shouldn't expand into the background color.
02:25:06 <Morbus> http://63.173.138.175/~morbus/libdb/index.cgi
02:25:15 <Morbus> that was one suggestion that failed.
02:25:36 <sbp> what's wrong with /~morbus/libdb/index.cgi?
02:25:43 <Morbus> it looks like ass.
02:25:44 <splodge> * splodge is already logging
02:25:48 <splodge> * splodge is already logging
02:25:49 <Morbus> the yellow at the bottom?
02:25:49 <Morbus> dumb.
02:25:54 <splodge> * splodge is already logging
02:26:02 <splodge> * splodge is already logging
02:26:10 <splodge> * splodge is logging
02:26:30 <sbp> er
02:26:38 <sbp> you mean the yellow underneath the white section?
02:26:50 <Morbus> yeah
02:27:04 <sbp> okay. let me try to fix it
02:27:10 <sbp> firefox's view source really sucks ass btw
02:27:50 <sbp> oh... this is driving me nuts
02:28:35 <sbp> * sbp wonders if the proxy is causing it
02:29:54 <sbp> where on earth is the CSS file?
02:31:32 <sbp> okay, got it
02:32:44 <Morbus> Now Playing: 'The Fall' from Jerry Goldsmith's album 'The Omen' (Rating: 4/5).
02:33:04 <sbp> argh, you took the yellow out?
02:33:06 <deltab> yay, Jerry Goldsmith
02:33:08 <sbp> put it back, put it back!
02:35:33 <sbp> that '<div class="clear"> </div>' thing at the bottom was what was causing it
02:35:49 <Morbus> that was required for IE5, and some other reason too.
02:35:51 <sbp> I just commented it out and it worked
02:36:00 <sbp> sigh
02:36:04 <Morbus> indeed
02:36:11 <sbp> <div class="main clear">
02:36:34 <sbp> ouch
02:36:37 <sbp> no, don't do that
02:37:27 <sbp> I dunno
02:37:40 <sbp> I subscribe to the Aaron Swartzian school of page design at the moment
02:37:42 <Morbus> yeah, its like, css sucks.
02:37:45 <Morbus> which is?
02:38:02 <sbp> Gill Sans for the headings, let the browser figure out the rest
02:38:28 <sbp> actually, I've just redesigned my homepage to be a quite snazzy CSS design
02:38:41 <sbp> but that's the most decent design I've done for ages
02:38:47 <sbp> and it probably looks crap in IE5 etc.
02:38:52 <sbp> * sbp shrugs
02:39:24 <sbp> bah, it looks crap in IE *6*
02:41:00 <Morbus> * Morbus chuckles.
02:41:14 <sbp> * sbp fixes that quickly
02:42:03 <Morbus> css sucks.
02:42:08 <Morbus> i can't believe this is so difficult.
02:42:24 <sbp> I'm thinking about using two giant images on mine
02:42:46 <sbp> GIFs, too
02:42:53 <sbp> just to rebel
02:43:06 <sbp> GIFs get layouts *perfect*
02:43:13 <sbp> just set the alt and you're fine
02:43:29 <sbp> they don't re-wrap to well, though
02:43:32 <sbp> oh!
02:43:33 <Morbus> [21:42] <Atua2> I hear you, Morbus
02:43:33 <Morbus> [21:43] <Morbus> reallly? i haven't opened my mouth for like five hours.
02:43:50 <sbp> but they do display unicode on any browser that supports them
02:43:51 <sbp> heh
02:44:17 <Morbus> [21:43] <Atua2> one more dumb question before I'm done
02:44:20 <Morbus> [21:43] <Atua2> --how fast do you type?
02:44:24 <Morbus> [21:43] <Morbus> as fast as i need to ;)
02:51:21 <sbp> freaky. the images actually work really well
02:51:42 <thelsdj> I've finally found my favorite use for bittorrent, downloading foreign movies that don't even end up in the foreign section of the video stores
02:55:49 <mediovia__> Hey, Morbus. We met a long time ago when I was a doid
02:56:16 <Morbus> a doid?
02:56:23 <mediovia__> thelsdj: thanks for the link to the experimental bittorrent client - very useful
02:56:24 <Morbus> have you graduated to hemmorhoid?
02:56:34 <mediovia__> Morbus: was my nick ages ago
02:56:37 <mediovia__> heh
02:59:09 <splodge> * splodge is already logging
02:59:20 <mediovia__> I tried reinstalliing Amphetadesk a few weeks ago, but had some problems, as I remember it, with dependencies fro zlib, or zlib1g, would that make sense?
02:59:36 <mediovia__> * mediovia__ finishes lame linkdump at http://okdisco.com/wiki.asp?page=LinkDump and considers making for bed
02:59:48 <Morbus> mediovia__: comment "use Compress::Zlib" in AmphetaDesk.pl
03:01:14 <mediovia__> Morbus: ah, I'll give that a go, thanks
03:02:23 <mediovia__> MS VPC for Mac Elevation of privilege vulnerability, but probably noone here uses it
03:02:45 <d8uv>
03:03:00 <d8uv> Gah. My computer is teh suck.
03:03:30 <sbp> man. nobody spends as much time on their homepages as I do, and yet everyone else's sucks much less than mine
03:03:38 <sbp> maybe too much effort is what borks it
03:03:47 <sbp> but then I look at older version and think that no, they were pretty bad
03:04:12 <sbp> presentation is everything is presentation is everything is presentation
03:04:41 <sbp> this new one's getting towards good
03:04:43 <sbp> but!
03:04:49 <sbp> I have the organization problem now
03:05:23 <sbp> do I point people to my code and documentation, my semantic web stuff and web architecture stuff, or what?
03:05:30 <sbp> weblog and outside stuff...
03:05:31 <sbp> eek
03:05:40 <sbp> classification problem overload
03:06:18 <sbp> what soup of sentences will be most optimal to people coming to the page
03:06:23 <sbp> that's what keeps bugging me
03:06:28 <thelsdj> mediovia__, have you read eastern standard tribe yet?
03:06:30 <sbp> unsolvable, but... must... solve...
03:07:08 <d8uv> Sem web, Web arch, Code + Doc.
03:07:15 <d8uv> That's what I think.
03:07:26 <thelsdj> i like the idea of having a header on your blog that doesn't change, introducing people to what you do and links to various stuff thats not the blog
03:07:27 <sbp> and then no link to miscoranda? or email and IRC links?
03:07:32 <thelsdj> yet have all the blog entries underneath
03:07:46 <sbp> the problem is that the current design has a single toolbar at the top with limited width
03:07:57 <sbp> thelsdj: that's another thing... why do so many people have their blogs as their homepages?
03:08:05 <sbp> I could never, never have a blog as a homepage
03:08:18 <sbp> I don't think anything else says "hi I suck" harder than that
03:08:28 <thelsdj> well depends on how much information you want on your homepage
03:08:49 <sbp> I suppose
03:08:55 <sbp> the scary corner case is deltab
03:09:08 <sbp> I take it that privacy concerns overwhelm him most
03:09:18 <sbp> maybe tav caught it from deltab
03:09:26 <thelsdj> i have the most silly homepage ever
03:09:31 <thelsdj> take a look at http://jane.no-ip.com/
03:09:33 <thelsdj> theres like nothing there
03:09:44 <thelsdj> just quick links i put cause i was tired of remembering some urls
03:09:52 <mediovia__> thelsdj: no, don't think I have unless it's Cory Doctorow's novel that was part published iin Salon
03:10:00 <thelsdj> and half the links don't work anymore
03:10:21 <sbp> wow, that's pretty brutal
03:10:37 <sbp> reminds me of John Cowan's... except, even smaller. I've seen quite a few of that size, though
03:10:49 <sbp> actually, I like those because they direct people to other stuff that matter
03:11:02 <sbp> though it might be a good idea to have just a little bit about you
03:11:14 <sbp> but what do I know? deltab's in complete contradiction to Aaron. it's unsettling
03:11:30 <thelsdj> well i was just pointing out that i don't really have a homepage haha
03:11:38 <sbp> even Morbus doesn't seem to particularly care, and he's Mr. Code Shui. but then there's always Google...
03:11:39 <sbp> yeah
03:12:14 <sbp> * sbp gets frightened in case people use ".google Sean B. Palmer" as his homepage...
03:13:51 <sbp> /sbp/ is the second highest ranked page on infomesh.net, though, after swintro
03:14:29 <Morbus> *** Morbus has quit (Client Quit)
03:16:11 <sbp> I guess what you do is more important than how you talk about what you do
03:16:17 <thelsdj> hehe ".google Adam Wendt" is almost just as bad because MT regenerated my page when there weren't any new posts to put on it so its basically empty
03:16:28 <sbp> whoops
03:16:39 <thelsdj> except for the sidebar
03:16:43 <thelsdj> so it looks a bit out of place
03:17:59 <mediovia__> * mediovia__ just uses the full text search on his site, and that hardly ever get him what he wants
03:33:24 <sbp> woah. 2004-02-06 was the fifth largest #swhack log ever
03:33:40 <sbp> 2004-02-10 is also well up there
03:34:04 <thelsdj> nice
03:38:18 <thelsdj> am i the only person that has more than 1 computer on my desk and hates not having an easy way to copy and paste from one computer to another? heh
03:38:55 <sbp> do you have them networked?
03:38:58 <sbp> should be easyish
03:39:16 <thelsdj> yea, my brain is working on ideas right now
03:40:13 <sbp> burp.sh:
03:40:16 <thelsdj> would want it to be cross platform hrm
03:40:26 <sbp> * save clipboard to ~/.clipboard
03:40:29 <sbp> slurp.sh:
03:40:43 <sbp> * read from /remotepath/.clipboard
03:40:47 <sbp> that's a problem
03:40:50 <sbp> what platforms?
03:41:19 <thelsdj> right now linux and os x, i guess i could mount an nfs path on os x or something
03:41:28 <sbp> yeah
03:42:08 <thelsdj> most of the time i'm just wanting to pull up urls that i have on one machine so i'm thinking of a bookmarklet that works like a stack, push on one browser, pop on another
03:42:18 <sbp> ah
03:42:20 <sbp> good idea
03:43:28 <mediovia__> which is why I use a wiki with bookmarklets, used to use KnowNow (javascript push)
03:43:52 <mediovia__> * mediovia__ goes back to EST
03:43:59 <thelsdj> heh
03:46:01 <thelsdj> i was having so much fun with xnest yesterday
03:46:27 <thelsdj> http://jane.no-ip.com/xnest.jpg
03:46:46 <thelsdj> also xnest2.jpg
03:53:20 <thelsdj> wow nedit's python mode doesn't auto ident after a line ending with :
04:01:08 <thelsdj> what simplest way to check if a file exists in python? i haven't had to think in python for quite a while heh
04:07:39 <thelsdj> nevermind, found os.path.isfile
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04:50:28 <thelsdj> proof of concept: http://jane.no-ip.com/pushpop/pushpop.py
04:54:54 <d8uv> thelsdj: I don't think it works.
04:56:01 <d8uv> Popping doesn't show the latest link on the stack.
04:57:34 <thelsdj> d8uv just fixed it
04:58:06 <thelsdj> (i think) hehe
04:58:20 <d8uv> Neat.
04:58:25 <d8uv> That's cool.
04:58:39 <thelsdj> yea, and it would have weird results with multiple people using it hahaha
04:58:46 <thelsdj> so its better for just inside your lan
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05:24:53 <mediovia__> neato. bbiab.
05:35:25 <mediovia__> links, links, links
05:36:11 <mediovia__> I only go to bed when I'm really tired, and as soon as I put my head down and relax I think "Wouldn't it be nice to have some links to go with this?"
05:38:06 <mediovia__> Actually went a bit further and got one of those lenses off ebay for making cheap tv projectors, thought I'd prop it over the laptop screen and project a scrolling page onto the ceiling
05:47:18 <AaronSw> their school newspaper is called the interrobang: http://tailsteak.netherweb.com/archive.php?num=161
05:47:21 <AaronSw> how cool is that?
05:49:21 <AaronSw> the comic is pretty funny too
05:50:04 <AaronSw> this guy claims to have trademarked "Interrobang": http://www.davetepper.net/
05:50:37 <AaronSw> while providng his site under a CC license
05:51:44 <d8uv> AaronSw: That's messed up.
05:52:38 <AaronSw> sbp, when are we going to see this fabled new homepage design?
05:53:08 <AaronSw> @@update: I noticed we even got Larry Lessig using @@.
05:53:17 <AaronSw> Actually, he only uses one @
05:53:20 <AaronSw> but it's close enough.
05:54:49 <sbp> sorry. you can see it now if you want
05:55:00 <sbp> I was just hacking on what'll be the world's shortest wiki. muahahaha
05:55:14 <sbp> d8uv, Aaron: if either of you are around, you can help me think of a name for it
05:55:18 <sbp> the language is PHP
05:55:23 <sbp> and don't ask
05:55:27 <thelsdj> sbp, you see my proof of concept?
05:55:29 <d8uv> PHP?!
05:55:29 <sbp> let me upload the new homepage...
05:55:31 <thelsdj> haha
05:55:32 <thelsdj> how short?
05:56:01 <sbp> wc gives: 3 11 307
05:56:07 <sbp> but I'm working on getting that shorter
05:56:24 <sbp> 4 lines actually; 3 just counts line breaks
05:56:37 <AaronSw> ok, this is getting scary now
05:56:51 <sbp> wait till you see it
05:57:03 <AaronSw> let me give you a name
05:57:10 <thelsdj> ooh my bittorrent tracker has surpassed 10k downloads
05:57:52 <thelsdj> i mean 10k completed downloads of files hosted on my tracker, not 10k downloads of a tracker i wrote
05:57:58 <deltab> wIcky
05:58:19 <thelsdj> wicka wicka weee
05:58:35 <AaronSw> wicky - heh!
05:58:39 <d8uv> Phwysical?
05:58:41 <AaronSw> err wIcky
05:58:49 <deltab> or w-icky
05:58:59 <d8uv> Oh. Didn't see the serifs. That's cool.
05:59:17 <AaronSw> ickywicky
05:59:46 <deltab> wickle
06:00:34 <thelsdj> wickly
06:01:06 <deltab> hmm, I don't know what that means
06:02:42 <thelsdj> ooh how about wikke
06:02:48 <thelsdj> dict it
06:03:00 <sbp> Aaron, what's the PHP extension on Vorpal?
06:03:09 <sbp> uh. not that I'm asking for any particular reason
06:03:11 <deltab> heh
06:03:30 <thelsdj> i think 'Wikke' would be great
06:03:32 <d8uv> You should call it "fdisk"
06:03:40 <sbp> rm-rf
06:04:26 <sbp> oh, I uploaded my homepage too. man, so busy I forgot about that
06:04:44 <sbp> [URI deleted]
06:04:56 <sbp> Aaaaron!
06:05:54 <thelsdj> sbp, for some reason that font doesn't look right to my eyes
06:05:59 <thelsdj> (the main text font)
06:06:16 <sbp> not used to serif, eh?
06:06:52 <d8uv> sbp: MiniWi. A lame reference BUT STILL
06:07:24 <thelsdj> no i guess i'm not, its like i can't read it without noticing the font
06:08:41 <d8uv> thelsdj: I can't read much text without instantly trying to ID the font either.
06:10:42 <sbp> argh, what the... I can't get PHP working
06:10:58 <sbp> Aaron, it'd be really really helpful if you were around right now
06:11:01 <sbp> * sbp does an Aaron dance
06:11:11 <sbp> Georgia
06:11:22 <d8uv> sbp: Gimme the code, I'll paste it up to the d8uv.com server.
06:11:47 <sbp> okay... er, but the thing is that it requires quite a bit of fucking around
06:12:01 <d8uv> Hmm...
06:12:09 <thelsdj> sbp, holdon a sec
06:12:11 <sbp> and also that shell_exec is enabled
06:12:39 <d8uv> Hmm... thelsdj could probably help you more.
06:13:07 <thelsdj> sbp, just create a public_html
06:13:11 <thelsdj> should work outa the box
06:13:38 <thelsdj> speed should be faster now if it was real lagged
06:15:01 <sbp> ah, okay
06:15:21 <thelsdj> i'll check the config file to make sure .htaccess works in there
06:15:44 <sbp> hey great, it seems to be working...
06:16:02 <thelsdj> should work
06:16:11 <thelsdj> and url should be jane.no-ip.com/~sbp/
06:16:17 <sbp> hehe. nightmare scenario: -bash: nano: command not found
06:16:21 <sbp> yeah, I'm already there. ooh
06:17:19 <thelsdj> try nano again
06:17:20 <d8uv> Heh. nano is the rock.
06:17:30 <thelsdj> apt-get install rocks
06:17:32 <sbp> it's okay; I'm scp-ing now
06:17:37 <sbp> aww... sorry
06:17:45 <thelsdj> hehe
06:17:51 <sbp> nano will probably be very useful in a mo' though...
06:18:06 <sbp> oh sweet, it's working
06:18:21 <sbp> and your PHP is loose enough to get this all running
06:18:23 <d8uv> Heh. I have far too many linux problems to even talk about Linux in general.
06:18:28 <d8uv> I'm not qualified.
06:18:33 <thelsdj> heh
06:18:39 <thelsdj> nice
06:18:48 <thelsdj> my system is VERY loose
06:18:54 <thelsdj> i'm supprised i don't get rooted every week
06:19:02 <sbp> heh, heh
06:25:18 <sbp> thelsdj: help? "You don't have permission to access /~sbp/put.py on this server."
06:25:21 <sbp> I've chmod 755'd it
06:26:26 <thelsdj> k holdon
06:26:33 <sbp> thanks
06:26:39 <sbp> * sbp appreciates this very much, bwt
06:26:41 <sbp> er, btw
06:27:45 <thelsdj> ok, fixed
06:27:52 <sbp> thanks
06:28:00 <thelsdj> no prob
06:37:09 <sbp> sigh, now the tricky part... battling Apache
06:37:33 <thelsdj> for write access or what?
06:37:52 <thelsdj> or you doing some weird URI thing?
06:38:00 <sbp> I need to basically map all of the requests for files that exist to put.py
06:39:28 <sbp> bzzt. "Internal Server Error"
06:39:43 <sbp> do I have my own logs, or could you possibly tail them for me, please?
06:39:50 <thelsdj> i think you just spelled something wrong
06:39:57 <thelsdj> Invalid command 'RewriteEnging',
06:39:59 <sbp> ah, you're right
06:40:00 <sbp> heh
06:40:09 <sbp> ta
06:40:23 <thelsdj> * thelsdj keeps a tail -f on the error_log
06:40:59 <sbp> good idea
06:42:09 <sbp> * sbp tries to find where he put QuickPut... argh
06:44:39 <sbp> ack. PUT is forbidden. any way I can get around that just locally?
06:44:48 <sbp> really, I only want to allow it for the put.py script
06:45:23 <thelsdj> hmm
06:45:28 <thelsdj> probably holdon
06:45:32 <sbp> ta
06:47:02 <thelsdj> k try again
06:47:26 <sbp> whoo!
06:47:29 <sbp> wow, you're good at this
06:48:16 <thelsdj> grep httpd.conf is my friend
06:49:42 <sbp> heh, heh
06:52:52 <sbp> * sbp takes a quick peek at RFC 2616...
06:53:56 <thelsdj> hah
06:57:05 <thelsdj> malformed header from script. Bad header=200 OK: /home/sbp/public_html/put.py
06:59:36 <thelsdj> still not right
07:05:20 <sbp> ack
07:05:33 <sbp> yeah, I'm trying to get it to return custom responses
07:05:41 <Ash> malformed butter from fridge. Bad butter=200 RANCID:
07:05:43 <sbp> the odd thing is that 201 seems to be working and yet 404 isn't
07:05:53 <Ash> What are you doing, sbp?
07:05:58 <splodge> * splodge is already logging
07:06:03 <sbp> wiki contest again
07:06:05 <Ash> did you know that people have written these things called 'http servers'
07:06:05 <thelsdj> the only one i ever saw errors for was 200
07:06:12 <Ash> oh great
07:06:16 <Ash> wikiwikiwanking
07:06:17 <sbp> $ GET --head http://jane.no-ip.com/~sbp/AnotherWikiName
07:06:17 <sbp> HTTP/1.0 200 OK
07:06:27 <sbp> it really should be 404ing...
07:07:03 <thelsdj> hmmm
07:07:56 <thelsdj> i got Not Found:
07:08:42 <sbp> really?
07:08:43 <sbp> hmm
07:08:45 <thelsdj> yea
07:08:57 <sbp> but then it's not being passed to the document that I called for ErrorDocument
07:08:57 <thelsdj> now i'm getting the php
07:09:13 <sbp> that's because I changed put.py...
07:09:16 <thelsdj> ah ok
07:09:18 <sbp> * sbp is fudging it
07:09:25 <thelsdj> i did get 404 once
07:10:02 <sbp> but not the PHP too: I suspect that one Apache hands off to the CGI, it doesn't care about what response code it gives any more, as long as there is one it'll pipe it out
07:10:33 <thelsdj> hmm yea that's too bad
07:10:38 <sbp> oh my goodness, it's working
07:10:41 <thelsdj> hahaha
07:10:55 <sbp> if you've got Mozilla, you can follow along!
07:11:38 <thelsdj> oh my
07:12:34 <sbp> I really ought to speak to Jim tomorrow and see if he can resolve that bug
07:12:52 <thelsdj> this hurts my brain
07:13:00 <sbp> heh!
07:13:57 <thelsdj> ah yes when you edit it adds and duplicates?
07:14:06 <sbp> * sbp sits back and relaxes a bit now, knowing that he's gonna probably womp the perlers tomorrow
07:14:07 <sbp> yeah...
07:14:22 <thelsdj> oh wait, not always
07:14:57 <sbp> really? when doesn't it duplicate?
07:15:05 <thelsdj> hmm check out foo
07:15:08 <thelsdj> it hasn't duplicated once
07:15:11 <sbp> yeah, I am at the moment
07:15:13 <thelsdj> just keeps adding to the beginning
07:15:25 <sbp> oh, right
07:15:32 <sbp> yeah, when the box clears itself it'll prepend
07:15:46 <sbp> when the box doesn't clear itself, so you're editing the text that's in there, it'll duplicate
07:15:57 <thelsdj> yea
07:16:01 <sbp> really you should be able to see the source in the box, edit it, and not have it duplicate...
07:16:03 <sbp> ideally
07:16:09 <irc.freenode.net> *** irc.freenode.net has changed the topic to: WikiWikiWank
07:16:10 <sbp> let's just say it's buggy at the mo'
07:16:12 <thelsdj> * thelsdj nods
07:16:12 <sbp> at least it works
07:16:13 <sbp> heh, heh
07:16:44 <thelsdj> hmmmm
07:16:55 <sbp> you can put in HTML, btw
07:17:02 <thelsdj> yea i noticed that
07:17:08 <sbp> and WikiNames get automatically converted to links
07:17:11 <sbp> cool
07:17:26 <sbp> hehe, this is so fun
07:17:50 <thelsdj> i don't see any link after the box like the HomePage talks about
07:18:16 <sbp> ah, it only occurs in pages that are linked to
07:18:37 <sbp> so if you create a link to NewPage on HomePage, and then go to create NewPage, it'll have a reference saying "HomePage"
07:19:01 <sbp> it's bending the backlinks rules a bit, but the perlers have bended the rules quite a bit too...
07:19:08 <thelsdj> hehe
07:19:32 <sbp> who'd've thought it? JavaScript, PHP, and Shell...
07:20:00 <thelsdj> haha
07:20:24 <sbp> "Code by Jim Ley and Sean B. Palmer, test site with thanks to Adam Wendt. We're very, very sorry..."
07:20:32 <thelsdj> hahahah
07:20:52 <sbp> I can't wait to write out the installation instructions...
07:21:12 <sbp> "1) Make sure you have a PUT handler set up if you don't already (but I'm sure you have one already... don't you?!)"
07:21:59 <sbp> "2) Make sure that your PHP installation is iffy and allows shell_exec(). Don't ask questions. No, you won't be r00ted."
07:22:32 <sbp> actually, as far as I can tell, this is very secure
07:22:57 <sbp> since the PUT handler is doing all the saving and it's *very* strict, it's better than the Perl ones, which just allow saving over the entire filesystem, AFAICT
07:23:41 <sbp> the handler only allows alphabetical filenames, so it can only write to the current directory, and won't overwrite even the scripts
07:24:15 <sbp> 296 characters...
07:26:33 <thelsdj> ah now i see the only php is for the backlinking
07:26:51 <d8uv> sbp: You have a test page I haven't bothered to look for?
07:27:41 <thelsdj> d8uv http://jane.no-ip.com/~sbp/AnyWikiName
07:28:29 <d8uv> Woah. That's cool.
07:28:45 <thelsdj> and the source is:
07:28:46 <thelsdj> <b><textarea onchange="x=new XMLHttpRequest();x.open('PUT',location);x.send(this
07:28:46 <thelsdj> .value.replace(/(([A-Z][a-z]+){2,})/g,'<a href=\u0022$1\u0022>$1</a>')+this.
07:28:46 <thelsdj> parentNode.innerHTML);setTimeout('location.reload()',999)"></textarea></b><?echo
07:28:47 <thelsdj> `n=$_SERVER[REQUEST_URI]&&echo \$(grep -l \${n##*/} *)`?>
07:28:51 <thelsdj> 4 lines
07:28:58 <sbp> and I've figured out the bug, too!
07:29:03 <thelsdj> nice
07:29:09 <thelsdj> or atleast its 4 lines on my terminal
07:29:56 <d8uv> Hmm... I see a bug on the anywiki page, but that's to be expected this early.
07:30:41 <d8uv> But this seems very awesome.
07:31:34 <deltab> why "n=$_SERVER[REQUEST_URI]"?
07:31:54 <thelsdj> to grep for links to that page
07:32:35 <deltab> why give a different name to a variable you only use once?
07:32:58 <thelsdj> thats in the shell
07:33:01 <sbp> because that gets interpolated
07:33:11 <thelsdj> its setting an evironment variable
07:33:13 <deltab> doesn't PH pass on the CGI vars?
07:33:14 <sbp> then the second variable is, as thelsdj says, in the shell
07:33:19 <sbp> no...
07:34:04 <thelsdj> hmm its no longer uploading for me, you twiddling with it?
07:34:10 <sbp> yep
07:34:12 <thelsdj> k hehe
07:34:50 <sbp> see: http://jane.no-ip.com/~sbp/env.php/TestingTheory
07:34:59 <sbp> env.php is <?echo `echo \${REQUEST_URI##*/}`?>
07:38:38 <sbp> okay, it's up and working again: and this time, no duplicates!
07:38:44 <sbp> the file size is a little bigger, though
07:38:49 <sbp> I did manage to save one char
07:38:52 <sbp> but I lost a few too...
07:39:08 <sbp> 309 chars now
07:39:43 <sbp> new source: [[[
07:39:43 <sbp> <b><textarea onchange="x=new XMLHttpRequest();x.open('PUT',location);x.send(this
07:39:43 <sbp> .value.replace(/(([A-Z][a-z]+){2,})/g,'<a href=\u0022$1\u0022>$1</a>')+'<b>'+
07:39:44 <sbp> this.parentNode.innerHTML+'</b>');setTimeout('location.reload()',999)"
07:39:44 <sbp> ></textarea></b><?echo`n=$_SERVER[REQUEST_URI]&&echo \$(grep -l \${n##*/} *)`?>
07:39:44 <sbp> ]]]
07:40:09 <sbp> perhaps I can do something about those \u0022 things, and the 999
07:41:07 <deltab> \x22?
07:41:21 <sbp> ah, yeah
07:41:25 <sbp> heh, I'd just tested that
07:41:27 <deltab> or \'
07:41:32 <sbp> hmm
07:41:35 <sbp> that's a good idea
07:42:31 <Ash> and to think that sbp complains about not getting anything productive done
07:42:35 <Ash> GEE I WONDER WHY THAT HAPPENS
07:42:42 <deltab> hehe
07:44:52 <sbp> heh, heh
07:44:57 <sbp> this is productive enough
07:46:05 <Ash> uh huh
07:46:08 <thelsdj> hmmm what about all the bold tags
07:46:10 <Ash> you just keep telling yourself that sbp
07:46:11 <Ash> ;-)
07:46:30 <sbp> the bold tags are to prevent the duplication
07:46:35 <thelsdj> ah
07:46:37 <sbp> Jim's hack: I misimplemented it the first time
07:46:42 <sbp> current source: [[[
07:46:42 <sbp> <b><textarea onchange="x=new XMLHttpRequest();x.open('PUT',location);x.send(
07:46:42 <sbp> this.value.replace(/(([A-Z][a-z]+){2,})/g,'<a href=\'$1\'>$1</a>')+'<b>'+this.
07:46:42 <sbp> parentNode.innerHTML+'</b>');setTimeout('location.reload()',99)"></textarea>
07:46:42 <sbp> </b><?echo`n=$_SERVER[REQUEST_URI]&&echo \$(grep -l \${n##*/} *)`?>
07:46:43 <sbp> ]]]
07:47:02 <sbp> having 99 instead of 999 means that it doesn't refresh right sometimes
07:47:06 <sbp> but... another bug
07:48:05 <sbp> shame XMLHttpRequest().open('PUT',location).send won't work
07:48:20 <sbp> perhaps one can leave the "new" out?
07:48:41 <sbp> though I'm sure Jim would've done that if he could...
07:49:43 <sbp> nope. doesn't work
07:50:06 <thelsdj> what if the php code doesn't get executed the first time and then if your php handler handled all files then that would be in there... hmm
07:51:32 <sbp> oh! we're so stupid
07:51:42 <sbp> the quotes around the value of the a/@href aren't required
07:51:42 <thelsdj> we are?
07:51:47 <thelsdj> haha
07:52:15 <sbp> what do you mean by the PHP code not being executed the "first time"?
07:53:00 <thelsdj> you get it to be PUT into the wiki page instead of the output of it or something
07:54:16 <thelsdj> oooh
07:54:22 <thelsdj> put it before the closing </b>
07:54:35 <thelsdj> put </b> after >?
07:54:39 <thelsdj> er ?>
07:54:54 <thelsdj> that way the initial linkback is saved
07:55:11 <sbp> ooh, good idea!
07:55:30 <sbp> done
07:56:04 <thelsdj> nice
07:56:27 <sbp> ha, great, it works. good suggestion
07:56:51 <sbp> 297 characters at the moment
07:57:22 <sbp> hmm. I think Jim mentioned a different event handler...
07:57:33 <sbp> splodge: grep Jim.*on
07:57:40 <splodge> I'm logging. I found 107 answers for 'Jim.*on' (showing 0...4)
07:57:41 <splodge> 0) 2004-02-11 07:57:33 <sbp> splodge: grep Jim.*on
07:57:42 <splodge> 1) 2004-02-11 07:57:22 <sbp> hmm. I think Jim mentioned a different event handler...
07:57:43 <splodge> 2) 2004-02-11 07:48:41 <sbp> though I'm sure Jim would've done that if he could...
07:57:44 <splodge> 3) 2004-02-10 *** irc.freenode.net has changed the topic to ÒHome of JibberJim: convincing people everywhere to make some spangly Y-Fronts and Rhinestone boots for their husbandsÓ
07:57:45 <splodge> 4) 2004-02-10 <JibberJim> the books related to http://www.thursdaynext.com/jurisfiction/ are good on that they're shipping UltraWord 9 IIRC which has such features in their stories
07:58:43 <thelsdj> splodge: grep Jim.*on.*=
07:58:45 <splodge> I'm logging. I found 12 answers for 'Jim.*on.*=' (showing 0...4)
07:58:47 <splodge> 0) 2004-02-11 07:58:43 <thelsdj> splodge: grep Jim.*on.*=
07:58:48 <splodge> 1) 2004-02-10 <JibberJim> <b><textarea onchange="x=new XMLHttpRequest();x.open('PUT',location);x.send(
07:58:49 <splodge> 2) 2004-02-10 <JibberJim> <textarea onchange="x=new XMLHttpRequest();x.open('PUT',location);x.send(
07:58:50 <splodge> 3) 2004-02-10 <JibberJim> <b><textarea onchange="x=new XMLHTTPRequest();x.open('PUT',location);x.send(
07:58:51 <splodge> 4) 2004-02-10 <JibberJim> <div><textarea onchange="x=new XMLHTTPRequest();x.open('PUT',location);
08:00:01 <sbp> aha: 2004-02-10.txt:<JibberJim> onchange of the textarea! onclick might be better, saves a character!
08:00:03 <sbp> ew: Disconnecting: Bad packet length 1099485581.
08:00:08 <sbp> ssh threw up
08:01:25 <thelsdj> lol
08:02:16 <sbp> eek
08:02:20 <sbp> onclick works... kinda
08:02:27 <thelsdj> hmm
08:02:28 <sbp> but at the cost of making it really really hard to use
08:02:33 <thelsdj> yea
08:02:38 <thelsdj> go back to onchange for now
08:02:42 <sbp> because if you click in the textarea it uploads--so you have to use tab
08:02:44 <sbp> yeah...
08:06:10 <sbp> the cool thing is that this is basically original code. most of the contest up until now has gone thus: "steal the current winner's code, reduce by three characters, proclaim yourself the new winner"
08:06:25 <sbp> the grep -l idea was stolen from one of the current winners
08:06:29 <sbp> and that's it
08:08:23 <sbp> hmm. the only way I can think of shortening it is if there's a better way to get vars from the environment
08:08:55 <sbp> `` seems to be basically an interpolated string, so I don't think that doing functions in there will work
08:09:01 <sbp> though one could assign outside and then use it...
08:09:04 <thelsdj> maybe php has a shorter version of $_SERVER[REQUEST_URI]
08:09:26 <thelsdj> like $REQUEST_URI or something
08:09:47 <sbp> hmm
08:09:52 <mediovia__> onBlur? click outside the textarea to PUT, maybe
08:10:03 <thelsdj> also
08:10:09 <thelsdj> can't we replace && with just a space?
08:11:10 <sbp> ooh, I think you're right about $REQUEST_URI
08:11:14 <sbp> and onBlur might work too
08:11:22 <sbp> && can't be replaced with a space, I don't think
08:11:27 <thelsdj> try it
08:11:50 <sbp> $ pqr=pqr echo $pqr
08:11:53 <sbp> [EOF]
08:11:56 <sbp> $ pqr=pqr&&echo $pqr
08:11:56 <sbp> pqr
08:11:58 <sbp> [EOF]
08:12:01 <thelsdj> hmm
08:13:00 <thelsdj> how is it then that you can do like GCC=gcc ./configure or shit like that i know i've seen it before when i compile programs
08:13:10 <sbp> great! it all works
08:13:20 <thelsdj> oh must have to do with the shell interpreter
08:13:20 <sbp> hmm. that's odd. I'm not sure
08:13:25 <sbp> perhaps the fact that echo is a builtin
08:13:29 <thelsdj> bash does something interesting
08:13:32 <sbp> * sbp nods
08:13:54 <sbp> onblur and $REQUEST_URI are working
08:14:11 <sbp> * sbp notes "Charles Goodier" for future acknowledgemental reference
08:14:33 <sbp> 286 chars
08:15:19 <mediovia__> this thing deserves its own javascript microbrowser
08:16:00 <sbp> hehheh
08:16:27 <sbp> deltab: is there no way to get bash to expand a string where the n is in ${n##*/}?
08:17:42 <sbp> except for bash -c
08:17:44 <sbp> that doesn't count
08:17:48 <sbp> :-)
08:18:30 <thelsdj> wait a minute
08:19:07 <thelsdj> why the heck arn't we doing echo \$(grep -l $REQUEST_URI *)?
08:22:10 <sbp> because you have to strip off everything before and including the last / of the REQUEST_URI
08:22:11 <sbp> but!
08:22:16 <sbp> I think I've saved a few more characters
08:22:22 <sbp> it seems that JavaScript supports $&
08:22:34 <thelsdj> hah
08:23:38 <sbp> yep, it does. whoo!
08:23:58 <sbp> heh, heh. just wait till I tell Jim all of this...
08:24:35 <thelsdj> wait how did that save any characters? wasn't it already $1 $1?
08:24:48 <sbp> because now we don't need parens around the whole match
08:24:53 <thelsdj> aaah
08:25:01 <sbp> /(([A-Z][a-z]+){2,})/g -> /([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g
08:25:04 <thelsdj> right
08:25:18 <sbp> I know you got it; just noting for the logs and anyone else watching
08:25:26 <thelsdj> :)
08:25:49 <sbp> * sbp tries to omit the "echo" from <?echo...?>, but it doesn't work...
08:25:53 <sbp> too much to ask, I suppose
08:26:40 <thelsdj> wait
08:26:44 <thelsdj> there is a shortcut for that i htink
08:26:53 <thelsdj> oh right but not with ``
08:27:03 <thelsdj> hmmm
08:27:26 <thelsdj> ooh
08:27:28 <thelsdj> take out echo
08:27:31 <thelsdj> and put a .
08:27:36 <sbp> ooh
08:27:36 <thelsdj> before and after the `
08:27:39 <thelsdj> 's
08:27:44 <thelsdj> thats the trick i believe
08:27:49 <thelsdj> like <?.$foo.?>
08:27:58 <thelsdj> prints out $foo
08:28:27 <sbp> Parse error: parse error in .../echotest.php on line 1
08:28:38 <thelsdj> doh
08:29:44 <thelsdj> hmm my test with just $foo didn't work either
08:29:51 <thelsdj> * thelsdj goes to look for the real syntax
08:30:34 <sbp> * sbp flicks through http://www.php.net/manual/en/
08:31:21 <thelsdj> ooooh
08:31:26 <thelsdj> <?=$foo?>
08:31:36 <sbp> oh!
08:31:39 <sbp> heh, I just found that too
08:31:53 <thelsdj> nice
08:32:01 <thelsdj> jesus:/var/www/bm# cat > echotest.php
08:32:01 <thelsdj> <?=`echo blah`?>
08:32:01 <thelsdj> jesus:/var/www/bm# php echotest.php
08:32:01 <thelsdj> blah
08:32:01 <thelsdj> jesus:/var/www/bm#
08:32:46 <thelsdj> 282 hehe
08:33:07 <sbp> yay!
08:33:17 <sbp> 281 in fact, since we'll chop of the trailing \n too
08:37:58 <sbp> oh, duh, this works too: <?=`echo \$(n=$REQUEST_URI;grep -l \${n##*/} *)`?></b>
08:38:02 <sbp> saves a single character
08:38:19 <thelsdj> ah nice
08:39:08 <sbp> basename works too, of course, but is one character longer...
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08:41:02 <thelsdj> what about PHP_SELF?
08:41:22 <sbp> oh! and I think I can get rid of all the $() and echo trickery since I was only employing that for exec
08:41:25 <sbp> PHP_SELF?
08:41:43 <thelsdj> $PHP_SELF instead of $REQUEST_URI
08:42:10 <sbp> ooh, I think so, yes
08:44:08 <sbp> yep. down to 268
08:44:12 <thelsdj> bahah
08:44:38 <thelsdj> the funny thing about this one is its actually readable compaired to the perl entries
08:46:46 <sbp> yes!
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08:51:42 <thelsdj> the biggest string of text thats repeated in there is textarea but i can't find a way to save any from that
08:53:05 <sbp> heh: ' In PHP 4.2.0 and later, the default value for the PHP directive register_globals is off. This is a major change in PHP. Having register_globals off affects the set of predefined variables available in the global scope. For example, to get DOCUMENT_ROOT you'll use $_SERVER['DOCUMENT_ROOT']'
08:53:14 <sbp> yeah... I'm just reading through the docs to try to find a way
08:54:18 <deelan> i was told that globals are evil in PHP. i try to avoid PHP altogether
08:54:28 <thelsdj> so do we
08:54:37 <thelsdj> but its helping us make the worlds smallest wiki
08:54:58 <thelsdj> down to 269 characters
08:56:20 <deelan> hehe. i see. i've just read the JS PUT trick wiked
08:57:05 <sbp> the shame about the PHP manual is that it's all nice and neat and security conscious and so forth
08:57:38 <thelsdj> omg this might be a silly idea
08:57:56 <thelsdj> but what if we left off the </textarea> tag? or would that make the javascript not work?
08:58:06 <thelsdj> or would that just plain not work anyways
08:58:13 <sbp> so we have quite a few installation notes: In PHP 4.2.0 and later, register_globals must be turned on. `` must be allowed, so shell_exec must be allowed...
08:58:22 <sbp> I think that that would bork the JavaScript
08:58:31 <thelsdj> try it for the heck of it haha
08:59:11 <thelsdj> might bork the this.parentNode.innerHTML or something
08:59:23 <thelsdj> but it just might not
08:59:36 <sbp> heh. the "</b>" appears inside the textarea for me using Firefox 0.8
09:00:17 <sbp> (/notext.php)
09:00:24 <thelsdj> sucks
09:00:33 <sbp> yeah...
09:00:35 <sbp> good idea though
09:00:58 <thelsdj> what about ending it with />? or however thats supposed to work
09:01:01 <xover> * xover discovers he would rather idle on #sbp^H^Hwhack than go to work…
09:01:04 <sbp> oh, and also safe mode: "The backtick operator is disabled when safe mode is enabled or shell_exec() is disabled"
09:01:10 <xover> * xover is much disturbed…
09:01:12 <sbp> heh, heh
09:01:37 <sbp> thelsdj: I have a feeling that </> won't work since it's a dark corner of HTML from SGML...
09:01:53 <thelsdj> i mean <textarea blahblah />
09:01:59 <sbp> xover: I hope you're entertained too in amidst that disturbance!
09:02:08 <sbp> thelsdj: there's also <textarea//
09:02:12 <sbp> hang on a second...
09:02:14 <thelsdj> end the opening tag with />
09:02:23 <xover> An amusing disturbance?
09:02:30 <sbp> [[[
09:02:32 <sbp> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
09:02:32 <sbp> <title/GS/<body onLoad="document.f.q.focus()"<form
09:02:32 <sbp> action="http://google.com/search" name=f/<p/<input
09:02:32 <sbp> name=q< type=submit>//
09:02:37 <sbp> ]]] - http://miscoranda.com/40
09:02:48 <sbp> my HTML is just like my code
09:03:03 <thelsdj> ew haha
09:03:18 <irc.freenode.net> *** irc.freenode.net has changed the topic to: WikiWikiWank || Swhack: The Case of the Amusing Disturbance
09:03:18 <thelsdj> no but seriously end the tag with 999)" />
09:03:35 <thelsdj> and leave off the closing tag
09:04:01 <thelsdj> funk
09:04:12 <sbp> I still get </b> in there... yeah
09:04:15 <thelsdj> yea
09:04:20 <thelsdj> shite
09:04:43 <sbp> the SGML // trick doesn't work either
09:04:48 <thelsdj> but isn't that the syntax? like <br />?
09:04:50 <sbp> * sbp thwaps Mozilla
09:04:55 <sbp> yeah, technically
09:05:00 <thelsdj> sucks
09:05:03 <sbp> yeah
09:05:30 <sbp> I tried storing textarea in a $t variable, too, but <?=$t?> takes up too many characters for it to be of use
09:05:39 <thelsdj> yea
09:05:46 <thelsdj> it takes too many to set it haha
09:05:50 <thelsdj> that you lose all that you gain
09:07:22 <sbp> yeah...
09:07:44 <sbp> hmm. what about setting t=location in the JavaScript? that's mentioned twice, though the second time is in the setTimeout hack
09:08:02 <thelsdj> hmmm
09:08:26 <thelsdj> try it, t=location; then later just t and then later t.reload()
09:08:36 <sbp> it saves one character
09:08:47 <thelsdj> should save more than that
09:08:49 <sbp> and seems to work!
09:08:51 <sbp> nope
09:09:00 <sbp> I've got:
09:09:00 <sbp> <b><textarea onblur="t=location;h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',t);h.send(
09:09:00 <sbp> this.value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+this.
09:09:00 <sbp> parentNode.innerHTML+'</b>');setTimeout('t.reload()',999)"></textarea>
09:09:00 <sbp> <?=`n=$PHP_SELF;grep -l \${n##*/} *`?></b>
09:09:15 <thelsdj> well 1 character is better than nothing haha
09:09:22 <thelsdj> and we should probably make that l
09:09:23 <thelsdj> not t
09:09:24 <thelsdj> hehe
09:09:36 <sbp> l looks like 1 though
09:09:39 <arcon> *** arcon (~arcon@dsl027-161-088.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #swhack
09:09:42 <thelsdj> hmm
09:09:43 <sbp> t was for "this"
09:09:48 <sbp> I was going to go for "h" for here...
09:09:50 <sbp> u for URI?
09:09:54 <sbp> yeah. I'll go for u
09:11:21 <thelsdj> hmm seems to me that should save 3 chars
09:12:21 <thelsdj> spend u=; (3) then the first u (4) then the second u (5) but location is 8 characters so you should save 3
09:12:46 <sbp> ah, you're right
09:12:47 <sbp> 265
09:14:26 <sbp> hmm. I've just noticed that the leading wiki is 253 characters
09:14:33 <sbp> but 6 lines
09:14:46 <sbp> but I think that 2 lines could be saved by using \n instead of actual line breaks
09:14:50 <sbp> * sbp weeps
09:14:59 <thelsdj> damn
09:15:18 <thelsdj> where is the list?
09:15:54 <sbp> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShortestWikiContest
09:16:03 <sbp> I think setting t=this gets back some more...
09:17:28 <thelsdj> no i think you lose 1 by that
09:17:32 <sbp> crap. yeah
09:17:34 <thelsdj> t=;tt
09:17:37 <thelsdj> is 5 hehe
09:18:20 <thelsdj> damn stupid fucking </textarea>
09:18:27 <sbp> yeah...
09:22:56 <sbp> oh!
09:22:59 <sbp> this is dirty, but...
09:23:06 <sbp> is there not a variable for the script itself?
09:23:14 <sbp> and couldn't we call the script "textarea"?
09:23:20 <sbp> and then set up the .htaccess to run it as PHP?
09:23:46 <thelsdj> YES!
09:23:49 <thelsdj> er
09:23:52 <thelsdj> wait
09:24:04 <thelsdj> i thihnk we'd still have to strip /'s and etc
09:24:47 <thelsdj> check all the vars here: http://jane.no-ip.com/bm/foo.php
09:24:52 <thelsdj> thats what my server will givev
09:24:57 <sbp> ah, thanks!
09:25:39 <sbp> hmph. oh well
09:26:19 <thelsdj> yea can't find any vars that is just 'foo.php' on there :(
09:26:38 <sbp> heh. you could set the SERVER_SIGNATURE to be <textarea onblur...
09:26:56 <thelsdj> hahah
09:30:25 <sbp> oh, now that I think of it...
09:30:36 <sbp> Jim only added the setTimeout thing as an afterthought
09:30:52 <sbp> so perhaps the problem is really with the browser and not the script
09:30:59 <thelsdj> hmmm
09:31:28 <thelsdj> i'm messing with notext.php for a second
09:32:18 <arcon> __FILE__
09:32:27 <arcon> that in a php script will return the file name
09:32:51 <arcon> and with .htaccess you can just call the file textarea
09:33:23 <thelsdj> what about calling the file XMLHttpRequest
09:33:44 <thelsdj> or even this.plarentNode.innerHTML
09:33:49 <sbp> yeah, thinking about it, __FILE__ isn't shorter than textarea
09:33:52 <sbp> ooh
09:33:57 <arcon> hehehe
09:33:57 <thelsdj> i think thats the largest valid filename
09:34:16 <sbp> <?=__FILE__?> for this.parentNode.innerHTML would be good
09:34:34 <thelsdj> is it actually a variable?
09:34:41 <arcon> it's a defined() constant
09:34:53 <thelsdj> hmmm so you have to echo it
09:34:57 <thelsdj> can't just replace it in the file
09:35:10 <arcon> what's the script look like so far?
09:35:24 <thelsdj> jesus:/home/sbp/public_html# cat jimput.php
09:35:24 <thelsdj> <b><textarea onblur="u=location;h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',u);
09:35:24 <thelsdj> h.send(this.value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+
09:35:24 <thelsdj> this.parentNode.innerHTML+'</b>');setTimeout('u.reload()',999)"></textarea>
09:35:25 <thelsdj> <?=`n=$PHP_SELF;grep -l \${n##*/} *`?></b>
09:36:49 <sbp> hmm. I've a couple of things in the reload() area that I can try... hang on a second
09:38:34 <sbp> you can leave out "setTimeout('u.reload()',999)" altogether
09:38:41 <thelsdj> touch "a>')+'<b>'+this.parentNode.innerHTML+'<"
09:38:41 <sbp> but then you have to F5 the page to see the result
09:38:49 <sbp> hehheh
09:39:04 <thelsdj> or do it with spaces, could probably do the wohle beginning
09:39:21 <sbp> chuckle
09:39:45 <thelsdj> touch "<b><textarea onblur=\"u=location;h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',u);h.send(this.value.replace("
09:39:48 <thelsdj> there we go
09:39:55 <thelsdj> hahah
09:40:11 <arcon> hehehe
09:41:37 <arcon> so what's this submit to?
09:41:44 <thelsdj> wait, can you make the put handler redirect to the referer?
09:41:46 <sbp> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShortestWikiContest
09:42:00 <sbp> redirect to the referrer?
09:42:30 <arcon> what's the XMLHttpRequest submit to? (or come from)
09:42:33 <thelsdj> when its done handling the put you send a Location: header
09:42:37 <sbp> * sbp is officially leaving out setTimeout('u.reload()',999)
09:42:55 <thelsdj> of the request_uri
09:43:08 <thelsdj> Location: REQUEST_URI
09:43:17 <thelsdj> and it should make it reload
09:43:54 <sbp> oh, that's a point
09:44:53 <sbp> 236 characters :-)
09:44:56 <sbp> * sbp hacks on put.py
09:51:10 <sbp> nah, the 302 doesn't seem to work
09:51:30 <thelsdj> hmmm
09:52:20 <sbp> oh, I can fit it on three lines now
09:52:24 <sbp> that'll save some characters
09:52:25 <thelsdj> did you check to make sure referer was set correctly?
09:52:36 <sbp> nope...
09:53:28 <thelsdj> you could just build the arg that goes to Location from your fn variable
09:53:49 <sbp> oh, heh. that's a point
09:53:51 <thelsdj> base + fn
09:54:17 <sbp> done
09:54:19 <thelsdj> also try sending Location as the only header when you have a 302 just for kicks
09:54:31 <sbp> really? no content-type? okay
09:54:32 <thelsdj> if it didn't work otherwise
09:54:43 <thelsdj> Location should be the last header
09:54:47 <sbp> ah
09:54:49 <sbp> done
09:55:16 <thelsdj> also put the write(s) under the else
09:55:31 <thelsdj> and under the 302 send an extra blank line
09:55:33 <sbp> still doesn't work
09:55:37 <thelsdj> (just add another \r\n
09:55:39 <thelsdj> )
09:55:40 <sbp> * sbp nods
09:56:28 <sbp> nope...
09:56:44 <thelsdj> put the write(s) under the else
09:56:52 <thelsdj> and put the extra \r\n with the Location
09:56:55 <thelsdj> and don't send the status
09:57:06 <thelsdj> put the if status == 302 at the top and everything else under the if
09:57:09 <thelsdj> er
09:57:12 <thelsdj> under the else
09:57:42 <thelsdj> make sure that nothing gets sent except Location: basefn\r\n\r\n
09:59:31 <sbp> blargh. sorry: I got disconnected. editing...
09:59:41 <thelsdj> s'ok, have at it
10:00:23 <sbp> nope, still doesn't redirect
10:00:45 <thelsdj> funk
10:01:11 <sbp> but it's replying:
10:01:11 <sbp> Done: 200: OK
10:01:11 <sbp> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:00:58 GMT
10:01:12 <sbp> Content-Type: application/x-python
10:01:17 <sbp> I think the status is needed
10:01:56 <thelsdj> how do you check what its replying?
10:02:33 <sbp> using QuickPut
10:02:39 <thelsdj> hehe k
10:02:46 <sbp> which is currently throwing an error, but saying that it's getting a 302 at the least
10:02:48 <sbp> it's old, old code...
10:03:43 <sbp> oh wait
10:03:46 <sbp> there is no fn
10:06:51 <sbp> fixed that... but still to no avail
10:07:15 <thelsdj> damn
10:07:56 <sbp> one shouldn't actually respond 302 to a PUT anyway
10:08:06 <sbp> 201 if it's being created, and 200 otherwise
10:08:18 <sbp> so I guess that's why Mozilla doesn't do what we want
10:08:22 <thelsdj> maybe
10:08:34 <sbp> irritating, though...
10:08:57 <thelsdj> but the thing is you could still respond 201 or 200 and have the Location
10:09:06 <thelsdj> but who cares were doin ok haha
10:09:26 <thelsdj> i think we are doing amazingly
10:09:55 <sbp> yep!
10:10:08 <thelsdj> 22 characters better than the best
10:10:25 <sbp> yep
10:10:41 <sbp> and I'd be a little, but not majorly, surprised if they could take any off of that
10:12:34 <thelsdj> would still be funny if we named the wiki: this.parentNode.innerHTML
10:13:27 <sbp> hehheh
10:13:31 <sbp> it's tempting, isn't it?
10:13:36 <thelsdj> yea
10:13:42 <sbp> if we get beaten again, perhaps that's what we'll do :-)
10:13:54 <thelsdj> :)
10:14:12 <thelsdj> hmm pi time
10:14:17 <thelsdj> i think thats a sign i should sleep
10:14:22 <thelsdj> 03:14:22 up 148 days, 13:07, 18 users, load average: 1.12, 1.25, 1.30
10:14:41 <sbp> heh
10:14:51 <sbp> well, many thanks for your help again!
10:15:00 <sbp> I'm going to try to wait around for Jim in case he has any ideas
10:15:05 <sbp> and then we'll see how it goes
10:15:11 <thelsdj> ok cool, talk to you later today then
10:15:15 <sbp> you don't mind if I link to your server for the example, do you?
10:15:20 <thelsdj> nope
10:15:23 <thelsdj> link away
10:15:23 <sbp> thanks!
10:15:29 <thelsdj> oh i noticed osmething weird
10:15:32 <sbp> oh?
10:15:45 <thelsdj> if you use ~ as a wiki name
10:15:54 <thelsdj> it lists put.py and put.src.txt
10:16:04 <thelsdj> or maybe thats just cause of the search hmm
10:16:08 <thelsdj> ~ must be in the files
10:16:11 <sbp> yeah, I think it's the search
10:16:21 <sbp> ~ is in base
10:16:28 <thelsdj> ah right
10:16:59 <thelsdj> * thelsdj stumbles to bed
10:17:11 <sbp> * sbp reads about XMLHttpRequest
10:17:16 <sbp> 'night thelsdj!
10:17:21 <sbp> thanks again
10:20:04 <sbp> we could gain about 15 characters if we made people use IE. heh
10:20:26 <sbp> that's probably going too far
10:26:13 <deelan> sbp, no more Graph/DBGraph in purple. now we have only Graph it just spowns different storages with storage='mysql' init param. the power of mix-ins!
10:26:26 <deelan> s/spowns/spawns
10:29:10 <sbp> great!
10:29:22 <sbp> that's much nicer
10:29:47 <deelan> i was pretty amazed bu the power of __new__
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10:31:55 <sbp> heh, yeah
10:32:40 <thelsdj> sbp, if you can save 15 characters by going IE, make 2 versions :)
10:33:07 <sbp> yeah, but then I'd have to *test* for IE. eww!
10:33:08 <sbp> :-)
10:33:13 <sbp> yeah, I think I might do though
10:33:17 <sbp> hmm
10:33:30 <sbp> I can move public_html into mozilla and make an ie folder too
10:33:32 <thelsdj> does our current version even work on IE?
10:33:40 <sbp> nope
10:34:47 <thelsdj> could you hack something in the .htacccess that for the 404 case gave different version depending on browser? or is that too much for apache
10:35:03 <sbp> hmm
10:35:15 <sbp> I'll bet it's possible... but that'll take a bit of searching
10:35:18 <thelsdj> oh wait but then 1 file that was created in IE couldn't be edited in moz
10:35:24 <thelsdj> so nevermind
10:35:38 <thelsdj> and versavisa
10:35:39 <sbp> well, actually, it'll be done in put.py, and yeah, you're right
10:35:41 <sbp> yeah
10:35:52 <thelsdj> so if you go that way you need 2 dirs
10:36:14 <sbp> I've already got two dirs... :-)
10:36:21 <thelsdj> :)
10:38:06 <thelsdj> i figured it out
10:38:21 <thelsdj> have put.py call a lil app that after a put it syncronizes
10:38:39 <thelsdj> give it either moz input or ie input and it outputs to the other dir
10:38:52 <thelsdj> a simple search and replace would work for that
10:38:59 <thelsdj> so its really only 1 wiki with 2 interfaces
10:39:20 <thelsdj> (would still have a copy of every entry for both but they would be synced
10:39:24 <thelsdj> )
10:39:40 <sbp> ooh, I see
10:40:00 <sbp> that'll take a little more setup though. let me test this for now
10:40:04 <sbp> ooh, I think Jim might be here
10:40:11 <sbp> ah, nope. damn
10:41:30 <thelsdj> if you meant to get rid of all the <b>'s on the ie version you've still got one at the end
10:41:48 <sbp> ah, the IE version does indeed work
10:42:04 <sbp> ooh, thanks
10:42:51 <sbp> only 215 chars for that
10:43:08 <sbp> 231 and 215... twins
10:44:26 <thelsdj> ie version doesn't submit on OS X hehe
10:44:29 <thelsdj> with IE 5.1
10:44:45 <sbp> "IE" version :-)
10:44:53 <sbp> hmm. that might be due to the onblur
10:45:14 <sbp> 'ang on a second: didn't you go to bed? :-)
10:45:30 <sbp> .google IE 5.1 Mac onblur
10:45:32 <datum> IE 5.1 Mac onblur: https://lists.latech.edu/pipermail/javascript/2003-January/004604.html
10:45:46 <thelsdj> heh
10:46:49 <sbp> hmm. onblur should work, apparently
10:47:50 <thelsdj> maybe put is broken, who knows hehe
10:47:59 <sbp> true
10:48:04 <sbp> I'll ask Jim
10:48:14 <sbp> if he ever turns up!
10:49:46 <sbp> (he's usually around by now)
10:55:50 <sbp> clutter: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=e9744d33e932f0de0ec1d35d23523a44&threadid=830487&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
10:56:16 <sbp> having put.py handle switching between the versions is going to be too silly
10:56:36 <sbp> each of the pages will have to be munged before being served...
10:56:57 <sbp> it's nearly a search and replace except for the backlinks
10:57:20 <thelsdj> hrm
10:59:12 <sbp> can't even rfind('textarea') and use the text up to there, because of those backlinks and the trailing </b>... though then again, if the rest is just a replacement... perhaps that will work
11:01:11 <thelsdj> s regexp could just replace everything between <textarea and </textarea> with the other version
11:01:21 <thelsdj> er s = a
11:02:14 <sbp> hmm, that's a point. that'd be easy enough
11:02:34 <sbp> unless someone put a <textarea in the page
11:02:41 <thelsdj> hahahha
11:03:06 <thelsdj> we don't need to worry about that situation yet i don't think
11:03:51 <sbp> nope
11:04:13 <sbp> hmm... I still find it odd that nothing's being passed through to the environment frmo PHP when it does a `shell` call
11:04:22 <sbp> s/frmo/from/
11:04:59 <thelsdj> seee what `env` is
11:05:28 <sbp> already have done: /mozilla/env.php
11:06:33 <sbp> ah, Jim is around but he seems fairly unable to speak
11:07:07 <thelsdj> doh
11:07:27 <sbp> he can only access by HTTP tunneling you see...
11:07:33 <sbp> and his logger's broken
11:07:56 <sbp> ah, hi Jim!
11:07:59 <sbp> he should be able to read this
11:08:51 <sbp> Jim: we've been working on the wiki code that you gave us
11:09:40 <sbp> by mixing it with PHP and bash, we've been able to come up with a wiki that more or less, with lots of careful work, meets the requirements for the contest
11:09:56 <sbp> there's a Mozilla and an IE version--they're both under 250 chars and are three lines
11:10:25 <sbp> the sources are at http://jane.no-ip.com/~sbp/mozilla/jimput.src.txt and http://jane.no-ip.com/~sbp/ie/jimput.src.txt
11:10:33 <sbp> any input that you have on them would be most appreciated
11:11:01 <sbp> (he's reading the backlogs and trying to get his logger going)
11:11:36 <thelsdj> heheh
11:12:28 <JibberJim> IE version is Win32 IE only
11:12:46 <sbp> thanks. noted!
11:13:06 <mediovia__> seeya, congrats
11:13:21 <sbp> c'ya, mediovia__, and thanks for your help
11:16:00 <JibberJim> They look good, what problems are there with them?
11:16:20 <sbp> none really. we had to take out the code that you gave us to make it refresh
11:16:24 <sbp> it was making it too big
11:16:35 <sbp> if you can think of any way around that, that'd be nice
11:16:39 <sbp> but I guess it's not too essential
11:17:15 <sbp> hmm. if you have any other tricks that can shave even a single character off, it'd be very useful--I have a feeling the london.pm folk will try to get revenge
11:17:32 <sbp> also: we need a name for it!
11:17:39 <JibberJim> You don't need a trailing </b> do you?
11:17:52 <sbp> oh, dunno
11:18:53 <JibberJim> okay we can ditch the +'<b>' stuff by using bold( ... )
11:19:19 <sbp> hey, you're right about not needing </b>
11:19:23 <JibberJim> if we also remove the trailing </b> we get the Moz one down a bit
11:19:26 <sbp> so bold() might not save us anything
11:20:32 <JibberJim> hmm, true!
11:21:44 <sbp> hmm. my JavaScript console gives me: "Error: bold is not defined" too
11:21:46 <JibberJim> can we not use an input rather than a textarea?
11:21:57 <sbp> inputs are only on one line, though
11:22:38 <thelsdj> yea but formatting is only done in our app with html
11:22:45 <thelsdj> we don't do anythying fun wiht \n so its not needed
11:23:00 <sbp> okay. you don't think it's too extreme?
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11:23:21 <thelsdj> not unless we decide to write something that puts <br> for \n
11:23:28 <sbp> oh wait...
11:23:33 <sbp> this.value won't work, will it?
11:23:36 <sbp> or will it?
11:23:40 <thelsdj> probably should
11:23:47 <sbp> Jim?
11:23:54 <sbp> refresh! :-)
11:24:13 <sbp> (hi there libby)
11:24:22 <libby> heya sbp
11:25:09 <JibberJim> Yep, this.value will work
11:25:43 <thelsdj> we might need to go back to it and even add something to deal with \n because the other leaders have that in their code :(
11:26:02 <libby> hello jibs!
11:26:23 <sbp> thelsdj: we have "<p>"
11:26:56 <thelsdj> i mean they have something that translates \n to <p> i believe
11:27:03 <sbp> right
11:27:12 <sbp> but we don't need that because we can put <p> straight in
11:27:27 <thelsdj> so could they they have textarea also
11:28:07 <thelsdj> we don't really satisfy the automatic formatting requirement at all
11:28:38 <sbp> heh. it still works
11:28:41 <thelsdj> but other than that we're good hehehe
11:28:49 <sbp> thelsdj: well, we do WikiLink parsing
11:28:58 <thelsdj> wow almost under 200
11:28:59 <sbp> so yeah we are cheating a bit
11:29:16 <sbp> but there's actually no requirement for text formatting other than there actually being some kind of formatting
11:29:17 <sbp> yep!
11:29:31 <sbp> plus the rules are hosted on a wiki. so we can change them
11:29:33 <sbp> :-)
11:30:06 <thelsdj> heheh
11:32:10 <sbp> haha: [[[
11:32:10 <sbp> I am in awe. -- DougMerritt (Why? SigWik is shorter!)
11:32:11 <sbp> I am willing to be further in awe, but the SigWik page does not summarize anything. Look, I'm a consumer, I watch tv, eat potato chips, and that's about it...you're asking me to count characters by hand, now? I don't think so. I have ice cream in the fridge to check on. And eat, of course. Life is short. Do you have any salsa? No? Sigh.
11:32:16 <sbp> ]]] - http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?FleaWi
11:32:36 <JibberJim> If only lifes rules were hosted on a wiki
11:32:45 <sbp> hehheh
11:32:57 <JibberJim> Hey libby!
11:33:32 <libby> how's it going jibberjim? you still working for those guys?
11:34:37 <JibberJim> Yep libby, they want another 3 months out of me
11:35:34 <libby> good or bad?
11:37:59 <thelsdj> sbp i still think we should name it Wikke
11:38:07 <sbp> Wikke?
11:38:08 <sbp> hmm
11:38:12 <thelsdj> 'dict wikke'
11:38:18 <sbp> .wn wikke
11:38:19 <datum> Sorry, I couldn't find wikke in WordNet.
11:38:26 <thelsdj> 1 definition found
11:38:26 <thelsdj> From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
11:38:26 <thelsdj> Wikke \Wik"ke\, a.
11:38:26 <thelsdj> Wicked. [Obs.] --Chaucer.
11:38:33 <sbp> haha
11:38:36 <sbp> cool!
11:38:48 <sbp> sure. Jim do you like that?
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11:40:33 <JibberJim> I'll do it, otherwise they're stuffe, just talking to the agent who's a muppet
11:41:50 <sbp> .googlecount wikke
11:41:51 <datum> wikke: 5,970
11:41:56 <sbp> not bad I guess
11:42:06 <JibberJim> <input onblur="h=new ActiveXObject('Msxml2.XMLHTTP');h.open('PUT',location);
11:42:07 <JibberJim> h.send(a.value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+a.outerHTML)"
11:42:07 <JibberJim> id=a><?=`n=$PHP_SELF;grep -l \${n##*/} *`?>
11:42:37 <sbp> oh, cool!
11:42:51 <sbp> would that work for Mozilla too?
11:44:50 <thelsdj> 199!!!
11:45:10 <sbp> yep!
11:49:19 <sbp> * sbp is writing up the documentation
11:50:02 <JibberJim> no, only moz does the shortcut id expansion
11:50:16 <sbp> you mean only IE?
11:50:53 <JibberJim> Wikke is good name
11:51:06 <JibberJim> yeah, I mean only IE
11:59:39 <sbp> is it fair to say that Mozilla's JavaScript is more standard compliant than IE?
11:59:55 <sbp> ActiveObject and MsXML don't seem all that vendor neutral...
12:01:25 <JibberJim> oncut saves a character in IE (maybe moz) ? but means it only does the put when you cut the text out of it!
12:02:02 <sbp> heh, heh
12:02:09 <JibberJim> Hurrah, I got my logger back!
12:02:17 <sbp> yep! well done
12:02:33 <sbp> okay... I'm going to paste in the documentation I'm thinking of running
12:02:38 <sbp> let me know if there's anything wrong with it
12:02:56 <sbp> WikKe is a 3 line 206 character WikiClone in PHP, JavaScript, and Bash. It
12:02:56 <sbp> was written for the ShortestWikiContest by Jim Ley, Sean B. Palmer, and
12:02:56 <sbp> Adam Wendt, which help from Charles Goodier, Arcon, and Daniel Biddle.
12:02:56 <sbp>
12:02:56 <sbp> WikKe uses HTTP PUT to submit posts; large standards compliant browsers,
12:02:57 <sbp> i.e. Mozilla, should be able to run this code. But we've also made available
12:03:01 <sbp> a version for Win32 InternetExplorer, which is actually a little shorter at
12:03:02 <sbp> 199 characters.
12:03:03 <sbp>
12:03:05 <sbp> Sources:
12:03:07 <sbp> * Wikke: http://infomesh.net/wikke/wikke.txt (206 chars)
12:03:09 <sbp> * Win32 IE only: http://infomesh.net/wikke/ie.txt (199 chars)
12:03:11 <sbp>
12:03:13 <sbp> How to use:
12:03:15 <sbp>
12:03:17 <sbp> * Type your text in the input box.
12:03:19 <sbp> * WikiNames are convered automatically to links.
12:03:21 <sbp> * HTML is allowed.
12:03:23 <sbp> * Unfocus the input box, e.g. by clicking outside
12:03:25 <sbp> of the input box, to upload; refresh the page, e.g. with Ctrl+F5,
12:03:27 <sbp> to view the updated page.
12:03:29 <sbp> * Backlinks will be diplayed to the right of the input area
12:03:31 <sbp> for pages which are about to be created.
12:03:35 <sbp>
12:03:37 <sbp> Working examples:
12:03:39 <sbp> * Wikke: http://jane.no-ip.com/~sbp/wikke/HomePage
12:03:41 <sbp> * Win32 IE only: http://jane.no-ip.com/~sbp/ie/HomePage
12:03:43 <sbp>
12:03:45 <sbp> To install:
12:03:47 <sbp>
12:03:49 <sbp> * Create a script-writable "wikke" directory.
12:03:51 <sbp> * Make sure you have a put handler set up. If you don't, you can use
12:03:53 <sbp> the one at http://infomesh.net/wikke/put.py.txt
12:03:55 <sbp> * Set "ErrorDocument 404 /wikke/wikke.php" in your .htaccess
12:03:57 <sbp>
12:03:59 <sbp> The team effort spanned many hours of discussion, and we noticed a number
12:04:01 <sbp> of issues along the way:
12:04:03 <sbp>
12:04:05 <sbp> * In PHP 4.2.0 and later, register_globals must be turned on.
12:04:07 <sbp> * Safe mode must be disabled and shell_exec() enabed.
12:04:09 <sbp>
12:04:11 <sbp> It's a bit of a squeeze, but at least it fits in a sig-block. Etymology: From
12:04:13 <sbp> Webster's (1913): Wikke \Wik"ke\, a. Wicked. [Obs.] --Chaucer.
12:04:15 <sbp> [EOF]
12:04:17 <sbp> I don't mind using jane.no-ip.com or jibbering.com for the sources as long as I can see the server logs
12:04:19 <sbp> :-)
12:04:23 <sbp> * sbp is quite surprised he didn't get flooded off there
12:05:25 <sbp> s/convered/converted/
12:05:38 <JibberJim> not really, I got it back by sending a support SMS...
12:05:57 <sbp> heh, heh
12:05:59 <JibberJim> No it's not fair to say that sbp.
12:06:10 <sbp> really? oh, crap
12:06:26 <JibberJim> and XMLHTTPRequest is just a change of way of creating it from IE's invention.
12:07:57 <thelsdj> sbp s/which help/with help/
12:08:10 <sbp> corrected
12:08:20 <sbp> the second paragraph now reads:
12:08:20 <sbp> WikKe uses HTTP PUT to submit posts, which both Mozilla and IE support. The main
12:08:20 <sbp> version of Wikke is for Mozilla, but we've also made available a version for
12:08:20 <sbp> Win32 InternetExplorer, which is actually a little shorter at 199 characters.
12:09:43 <thelsdj> should probably give an example of how to set up the put handler in .htaccess
12:09:57 <sbp> well...
12:10:05 <sbp> the PUT handler that we provide is actually a hack
12:10:14 <sbp> really, this code relies on native PUT handling
12:10:18 <thelsdj> true hehe
12:10:41 <sbp> the fact that no such PUT handling is available could technically mean that put.py is part of the code... and that would boost our line count right up! :-)
12:10:46 <thelsdj> ok, put how to setup the put handler in the source of put.py
12:10:56 <sbp> so I've been trying to avoid it as much as possible
12:10:59 <sbp> ahh, good idea
12:13:06 <JibberJim> * JibberJim wonders if VBScript would save you more for IE
12:13:46 <sbp> * sbp updates put.py, put.src.txt
12:17:52 <sbp> * sbp switches the URIs, can meme track using Google or beg for logs
12:19:52 <sbp> good taste, thelsdj:
12:19:52 <sbp> sbp@jesus:~/public_html$ python -V
12:19:52 <sbp> Python 2.3.3
12:20:52 <sbp> >>> s = open('wikke.txt').read()
12:20:52 <sbp> >>> open('wikke.txt', 'w').write(s.strip())
12:20:52 <sbp> >>> s = open('wikke-ie.txt').read()
12:20:52 <sbp> >>> open('wikke-ie.txt', 'w').write(s.strip())
12:20:52 <sbp> >>>
12:22:51 <sbp> okay... either of you mind if I release it to c2.com?
12:22:58 <thelsdj> not I
12:27:10 <sbp> done! http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShortestWikiContest and http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikKe
12:27:24 <sbp> many thanks, gentlemen
12:28:21 <sbp> refresh WikKe; original formatting was screwed up
12:30:34 <arcon> sbp: My real name is Adam Bregenzer if'n you think you could put it up there ;)
12:30:41 <arcon> not that I really helped much :)
12:30:45 <arcon> that rocks
12:31:14 <arcon> nm, it's a wiki...god I'm tired
12:33:41 <sbp> heh!
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12:34:01 <sbp> * sbp too...
12:34:19 <thelsdj> just thought i'd let ya know it doesn't seem to work in konqueror
12:34:58 <thelsdj> someone might want to try opera and omniweb for kicks hehe
12:35:03 <sbp> heh, heh
12:35:22 <sbp> yeah. I remember Jim said something about Opera earlier... hmm
12:35:33 <sbp> oh, it was just about it supporting PUT. I don't think it supports PUT at all
12:35:51 <thelsdj> konq probably doesn't either
12:36:04 <sbp> nope
12:36:06 <sbp> Safari?
12:36:18 <thelsdj> can't check as i'm stuck with 10.1.5
12:36:28 <thelsdj> safari requires 10.2 :(
12:36:33 <arcon> btw: the put.py.txt link is broken on the Wikke page
12:37:11 <sbp> whoops. thanks
12:38:20 <sbp> fixed
12:39:04 <thelsdj> wtf
12:39:11 <thelsdj> its being called as python code hah
12:39:12 <arcon> hmm, I think it's parsing the file
12:39:19 <thelsdj> chmod it
12:39:22 <thelsdj> er i got it
12:39:33 <sbp> thanks
12:39:43 <thelsdj> er
12:39:47 <arcon> permissions now ;)
12:39:50 <thelsdj> hmmm
12:40:11 <sbp> oh just move it up to ~/public_html/put.py.txt
12:40:26 <sbp> ...if that'll help
12:40:27 <thelsdj> or change the link to the put.src.txt version
12:40:49 <sbp> hmm. I like to let people know it's python in advance
12:40:56 <sbp> and for when they save...
12:41:37 <thelsdj> hmm yea
12:41:49 <thelsdj> i still think apache is trying to run it for some reason
12:42:14 <arcon> put_py.txt?
12:43:02 <thelsdj> good idea, fixed
12:43:05 <sbp> echo WhatTheFuckServeItAsPlainTextApache put.py.txt >> .htaccess
12:43:51 <sbp> heh, and the link is fixed on WikKe too. that's efficiency
12:44:00 <thelsdj> :P
12:45:09 <sbp> * sbp just waits for someone to come up with a two line wiki
12:47:41 <thelsdj> ok time to try to sleep again
12:48:30 <sbp> heh, heh. good luck
12:48:33 <sbp> .tim e-7
12:48:35 <sbp> er
12:48:36 <sbp> .time -7
12:48:37 <datum> Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:48:37 -7
12:48:42 <sbp> ouch
12:48:58 <sbp> then again, it's past midday here for me, and I've been up since it was yesterday afternoon
12:50:01 <arcon> heh, where is here for you sbp
12:50:11 <sbp> I'm in the U.K.
12:50:20 <sbp> nicely situated on GMT
12:50:21 <sbp> .time
12:50:22 <datum> Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:50:22 GMT
12:50:32 <sbp> I don't have to add anything to the ".time" command. it's great
12:53:36 <arcon> so anyone wanna take a look at some javascript that's pissing me off? ;) http://adam.bregenzer.net/question.html
12:53:50 <arcon> it works perfectly in Mozilla, nothing in IE
12:54:27 <arcon> I can't even click on the two top radio buttons in IE, but I can on the bottom test radio button...
12:55:15 <sbp> ouch, that's a lot of JavaScript
12:55:19 <arcon> yeah
12:55:24 <arcon> more than three lines ;)
12:55:25 <sbp> I'd debug it if I could think straight :-)
12:55:27 <sbp> heh, heh
12:55:34 <sbp> perhaps if Jim's still around he can take a look
12:55:41 <arcon> that's the problem I'm having, I've been up for waaaay too long
12:56:10 <sbp> * sbp just thought he'd check his email before he goes to bed, but he's got lots and lots and lots...
13:02:11 <arcon> HA, inputs need a name attribute even if they aren't being submitted in IE
13:02:15 <arcon> fuck that was lame
13:02:25 <sbp> heh
13:02:29 <sbp> glad you solved it
13:02:51 <arcon> yeah, I'm gald it wasn't my javascript
13:04:37 <sbp> woah
13:04:41 <sbp> you work on grouphug?
13:04:54 <sbp> that site has cost so many people so many thousands of work hours!
13:04:59 <sbp> do you realise what you've done?
13:05:07 <sbp> and on behalf of all of those people, I would like to say:
13:05:08 <sbp> thank you!
13:05:44 <arcon> hehe
13:05:52 <arcon> yeah, it was fun
13:06:10 <arcon> you know, I've gotten so sick of it I don't read it anymore
13:06:29 <sbp> hehheh
13:06:59 <arcon> don't tell anyone
13:07:00 <arcon> ;)
13:07:13 <sbp> just hope they don't read these logs
13:08:23 <sbp> so why "arcon"?
13:08:49 <arcon> I made it up many many years ago
13:09:11 <arcon> I've started using adam for almost everything, but it was my first irc nick nd will probably be my last
13:09:31 <JibberJim> arcon, that javascript is crap, if you really want to do anything with it throw it away and start again.
13:09:33 <sbp> ah, I see
13:09:40 <arcon> hehe, really, why?
13:12:19 <JibberJim> browser detection mostly
13:12:31 <arcon> oh, that's some crap I threw in after the fact
13:13:00 <arcon> as much as this can be useful, it was mostly me playing around with objects in javascript
13:13:30 <arcon> I didn't really put much effort into making it cross-browser compatible, etc.
13:14:11 <JibberJim> for example getRawObj should be coded very differently
13:14:12 <arcon> though if you have links for info on doing that very thing let me know.
13:14:49 <JibberJim> if (document.getElementById) { theObj=document.getElementById(obj) } etc. test the object you use don't assume based on anything else.
13:15:02 <arcon> yeah, it's something I grabbed from a DHTML book some time ago. Is there a good library that offers compatibility functions?
13:15:16 <JibberJim> questionHandler should probably use prototypes (much more efficient!)
13:15:52 <arcon> I used prototypes for all the questions, but for the handler..?
13:16:08 <JibberJim> actually it's not that bad, I just didn't look beyond the beginning and end before.
13:16:16 <arcon> hehe, yeah, that's where the mess lies
13:16:41 <JibberJim> no good libraries
13:16:51 <arcon> I'd love critiquing on the prototyping and my use of the singleton pattern, that was what I was really playing with
13:16:55 <JibberJim> yeah you use this.fred=function() {}
13:17:11 <JibberJim> that means the fred function gets generated each time in the "constructor"
13:17:31 <JibberJim> if you used QuestionHandler.prototype.fred=function() { } it doesn't.
13:17:39 <arcon> ah, I see, so if I did question.prototype.someFunc = function() {}...
13:17:43 <arcon> cool
13:18:12 <JibberJim> The next iteration of the comp.lang.javascript FAQ has a good explanation on gEBI emulation IIRC, but no idea when that will appear.
13:19:09 <arcon> heh, well I'm headed to bed for a few hours of sleep before I get back to working on everything I have been avoiding ;)
13:19:17 <arcon> thanks for the info Jim
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13:51:03 <sbp> 'night all
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17:54:01 <AaronSw> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/001166
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20:30:47 <AaronSw> how's deltab in complete contradiction to me?
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20:31:56 <AaronSw> that homepage is, uh, different
20:32:14 <AaronSw> and interesting
20:32:21 <AaronSw> and other non-offensive synonyms for ugly
20:32:43 <verbosus> AaronSw: which homepage?
20:34:30 <AaronSw> uh, nobody in particular
20:34:59 <AaronSw> is http://cavedoni.com/blogorroico/ your blog? that's a nice design
20:35:32 <verbosus> Yeah. Thanks.
20:35:54 <verbosus> I’m actually thinking to redesign the whole thing (backend included) when I’ll have time.
20:36:28 <verbosus> Oh, BTW: was it you wondering about a book typeset in Gill Sans?
20:36:32 <AaronSw> y
20:37:04 <AaronSw> do you know of one?
20:37:06 <verbosus> Because I have one over here.
20:37:07 <verbosus> Yeah.
20:37:25 <verbosus> Let me tell you: Gill Sans for body copy sucks.
20:37:40 <sbp> oh come on, surely it's not that's ugly...
20:37:42 <AaronSw> actually, i was looking for a book typeset well in Gill Sans
20:37:46 <verbosus> At least in this case: my book is a "design" book from an Italian guy
20:37:53 <AaronSw> I have a really awful book typeset in Gill Sans
20:38:03 <AaronSw> oh, it is a design book. does it have an ISBN?
20:38:04 <verbosus> i can make some scans for you and sbp
20:38:12 <verbosus> Yeah, I think so. Let me look it up.
20:38:14 <sbp> heh, that's interesting: [[[
20:38:14 <sbp> # AnubisWik?, -7 lines (Example uses a complementary 7 line copy of SigWik modified to delete itself after each entry)
20:38:15 <sbp> # NullWik?, 0, lines, 0 chars of nothing. (Example uses a complementry wiki CGI, other version just need a wiki supporting server)
20:38:17 <sbp> ]]] - SWC
20:38:24 <AaronSw> pff
20:38:41 <sbp> haha
20:38:48 <sbp> someone added "<-- LAME" next to WikKe
20:39:24 <sbp> some people are such bad losers...
20:39:27 <verbosus> AaronSw: 88-304-1523-5, author: Daniele Baroni, title: Il Manuale del Design Grafico
20:39:45 <thelsdj> hey sbp
20:39:56 <AaronSw> it is pretty lame
20:40:30 <AaronSw> you have weird ISBNs
20:40:33 <sbp> * sbp declares victory, moves on to other stuff
20:40:36 <sbp> hi there thelsdj
20:40:42 <thelsdj> yea we won :)
20:40:50 <sbp> hehehe
20:40:58 <AaronSw> http://www.delucasnc.com/particolare_prodotti.php?idprode=189
20:41:28 <AaronSw> pff, like you have anything else to move on to
20:41:43 <AaronSw> i've seen your schedule! the whole rest of the year is blocked out for wikis
20:41:49 <verbosus> heh
20:42:13 <sbp> deltab is in complete contradiction to you because he released no information, he releases no works, he cares not about presentation... or rather he cares about it in a strikingly different way from you
20:42:33 <sbp> and what's so ugly about the homepage? eh?
20:42:42 <verbosus> AaronSw: does the CreativeCommons <cc:license> element allow to specify more than one licence for an RSS item?
20:42:44 <AaronSw> oh, you figured out my code
20:42:49 <AaronSw> darn
20:42:56 <sbp> "Il campo grafico" the gay graphics?
20:43:01 <verbosus> haha
20:43:02 <AaronSw> verbosus, not in rss 1.0
20:43:13 <verbosus> crap
20:43:18 <AaronSw> that would be bitsko's fault
20:43:30 <AaronSw> but you can probably do it anyway and no one will care
20:43:35 <sbp> and you let him work on Atom?!
20:43:36 <AaronSw> even bitsko admits he was wrong on that one, i think
20:43:41 <verbosus> AaronSw: I have a client who’s making me design a custom RSS module
20:44:09 <verbosus> and we absolutely need a licence element, so I was thinking of reusing yours
20:44:21 <AaronSw> but you have more than one license?
20:44:26 <verbosus> yeah
20:44:28 <sbp> hey come on: tell me what's wrong with the design. I can't fix it if I don't know what's wrong with it! Gill Sans can wait--you've been waiting years already... :-)
20:44:41 <AaronSw> it's just this silly rule bitsko put into RSS 1.0 that says you can't use the same element in an item more than once
20:44:46 <verbosus> sbp: which design?
20:45:03 <AaronSw> but feel free to ignore that rule; nobody follows RSS specs anyway
20:45:03 <verbosus> AaronSw: are you saying in *every* RSS 1.0 element?
20:45:21 <verbosus> well, we’re really in a bad position
20:45:24 <AaronSw> it's true for every element
20:45:52 <AaronSw> <item ...> <A /> <A /> </item> is illegal no matter what A is
20:45:58 <verbosus> my client wants this extension to gain momentum, and we would like to follow the specs, but, well... it’s a mess ;-)
20:46:13 <AaronSw> yes, it is
20:46:15 <AaronSw> sbp, it's just... not good looking
20:46:40 <verbosus> sbp, there are several things wrong with that design if I may say
20:46:47 <AaronSw> in the first half of the page you use like six fonts
20:46:51 <verbosus> first, that right-hand box
20:47:14 <AaronSw> description.png looks all out of place
20:47:15 <verbosus> yeah, fucked-up typography as well :-)
20:47:26 <AaronSw> sorry, 7 fonts
20:47:42 <verbosus> that navigation up there, with pseudo-buttons
20:47:59 <AaronSw> helvetica looks awful. IRC should not be capitalized
20:48:01 <verbosus> why is Sean B. Palmer an image?
20:48:04 <AaronSw> too many bozes in the navigation
20:48:13 <AaronSw> err boxes
20:48:20 <sbp> IRC should not... be capitalized?
20:48:23 <AaronSw> the size of things is all over the place
20:48:24 <verbosus> I don’t see helvetica: Safari on OS X
20:48:29 <AaronSw> me too
20:48:38 <sbp> screenshots?
20:48:38 <AaronSw> I guess it's Arial
20:48:48 <verbosus> why all these useless images sbp?
20:48:56 <verbosus> type on modern computers is anti-aliased
20:49:02 <verbosus> or cleartype-d
20:49:14 <sbp> ugh. anti-aliasing makes me sick
20:49:23 <verbosus> Yeah, well, at least be consistent
20:49:34 <sbp> consistently sick? why?
20:49:45 <verbosus> no, I mean: consistent in type treatment
20:49:51 <sbp> just give screenshots k thx and no one gets set up the hurt
20:49:55 <Ash> cleartype is excellent
20:49:57 <Ash> <3
20:49:58 <AaronSw> * AaronSw DCCs a screenshot
20:49:59 <sbp> oh I see
20:50:07 <verbosus> if you are gonna have all the headlines as graphics then stick with it
20:50:10 <AaronSw> or tries to
20:50:10 <sbp> DCC does not work on dircproxy...
20:50:12 <Ash> OS X has sub-pixel aliasing too
20:50:14 <AaronSw> can i email it to you then?
20:50:18 <sbp> yep
20:50:24 <verbosus> but don’t mix body copy and headlines in "live" and graphic text
20:50:27 <Ash> * Ash yawns
20:50:34 <AaronSw> sent
20:50:46 <thelsdj> sbp, http://jane.no-ip.com/sbp.jpg
20:51:00 <verbosus> Also, I wouldn’t have that dashed border, which looks rather naff
20:51:00 <thelsdj> take a look at how those pseudo buttons don't match each other when you use caps
20:51:09 <sbp> extra-tacularly cool. thanks guys
20:51:21 <sbp> (email will be a while... it's still checking the other tonne)
20:51:33 <sbp> dashed border: yeah, I was worrying about that
20:51:34 <AaronSw> and why is it in a box like that?
20:51:47 <verbosus> I reckon it would look super with the same color but 1px solid
20:51:57 <sbp> thelsdj: oh, that does look pretty horrible, yeah
20:52:43 <sbp> hmm
20:52:58 <sbp> I like the box, but the mini-boxes and go I guess
20:53:28 <sbp> the selected publications really needs to be a fixed width not a percentage I presume
20:53:51 <verbosus> uh, and that fading border on the "Me Playing Pool..." image is rather tacky if I may say
20:54:06 <sbp> oh, I just stole the image from orkut
20:54:15 <AaronSw> and we don't really need to know your ISBNs
20:54:16 <sbp> I figured that if anyone can compress an image, Google can
20:54:25 <verbosus> heh
20:54:27 <sbp> yeah but I do
20:54:30 <AaronSw> look, Orkut != Google
20:54:32 <sbp> okay, point taken
20:54:41 <sbp> no, Orkut is *so* Google
20:54:53 <AaronSw> Orkut isn't even an being done on company time!
20:54:58 <sbp> it's a conspiracy! Martians! elves! ducks! toilets! camerardery!
20:54:58 <verbosus> people are all going paranoid about Google 0wnz0ring their profiles
20:55:09 <verbosus> THEN TAKE THEM THE HELL OUT OF THERE!
20:55:17 <verbosus> (on orkut, I mean)
20:55:19 <sbp> heh, heh
20:55:32 <sbp> yeah that is pretty dumb
20:55:40 <sbp> but okay, so is this homepage design. point taken
20:55:54 <AaronSw> I it just has no consistency
20:55:59 <verbosus> yeah
20:56:23 <verbosus> guess who’s paranoid about orkut + google?
20:56:32 <AaronSw> wave diner?
20:56:36 <verbosus> Indeed.
20:56:36 <verbosus> http://paolo.evectors.it/2004/02/11.html
20:56:45 <verbosus> LOL: wave diner.
20:57:12 <AaronSw> It's not surprising, since Google apparently masterminded a conspiracy to get its competitors to create a format it could use to take over the world.
20:57:19 <verbosus> I seem to recall reading something where he was basically saying: when Aaron will bite, I’ll bite back!
20:57:50 <sbp> DO NOT BITE ME AARON
20:57:54 <sbp> I AM THE POWERFUL
20:57:57 <verbosus> heh
20:58:03 <sbp> MY SAUNA PRESENCE IS TWICE THAT OF YOURS
20:58:04 <verbosus> sbp: new achewood today, did you see?
20:58:07 <sbp> I WILL BITE YOU BACK
20:58:12 <sbp> yeah
20:58:28 <verbosus> * verbosus is considering creating an XSL stylesheet to convert from OPML into something usable
20:58:43 <sbp> it was one of the few Achewood cartoons that make me thankful that I've been to America so I know what the crap it's going on about
20:59:24 <verbosus> I’ve never been there: but my father was in SF a couple of months ago and got back with an iPod ;-)
21:01:16 <AaronSw> ooh, Volokh sent me his book
21:01:53 <AaronSw> i'm tempted to subscribe to FoRK just to argue with jeff bone
21:02:49 <sbp> right. I really want the heading on one side and the description on the other
21:02:54 <sbp> but float just isn't working
21:03:05 <sbp> any other approaches? I remember Morbus asked the same question once
21:03:35 <AaronSw> man, jb is so crazy that he thinks "populist class-warfare baiting [] diminishes the strength of [my] overall argument."
21:04:24 <arcon> sbp, I had the same probelm, I ended up giving up and using tables :(
21:04:47 <arcon> width: 100% doesn't seem to work like I thought it would, otherwise...
21:05:09 <AaronSw> man, libertarians can be so annoying
21:05:19 <verbosus> sbp, that shouldn’t be a problem, can I try a prototype?
21:05:41 <AaronSw> sbp, see iron.wootest.net
21:05:54 <AaronSw> particularly, the read the interview links
21:07:02 <sbp> from the Dan Benjamin source:
21:07:03 <sbp> <!--
21:07:03 <sbp> I started smoking cigars when I was in college (this was before the cigar boom when, overnight, cigar smoking was suddenly very chic and glam) as a way to relax. I found I really enjoyed it and have ever since. It's sort of become my trademark, which is pretty cool. Whenever I meet a colleague of fellow blogger who knows about Hivelogic, they always want to have a cigar with me, which is great. That's what cigars are about for me, relaxing and enjoying time wit
21:09:04 <sbp> Aaron: what's to see about them? they're floated right, and aren't aligned on the same level as any other text
21:09:25 <sbp> verbosus: "try a prototype"?
21:09:25 <AaronSw> isn't that what you want? http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/display?t=%3Cp+style%3D%22float%3A+right%22%3EBlah+diddy+diddy+bl%3Bah+oksl%3Bwiosdmkl%2C%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3Ch1%3ESean+B.+Palmer%3C%2Fh1%3E+
21:09:49 <sbp> yes... but that's what I'm doing now and it looks crap
21:09:59 <sbp> well the whole page looks crap now that you all made me be "consistent"
21:10:35 <AaronSw> <p style="float: right; width: 50%">
21:10:39 <verbosus> how about: http://cavedoni.com/2004/02/11/heading-sbp ?
21:11:30 <verbosus> heh
21:12:02 <sbp> for me, the link bar is now on two levels
21:12:11 <sbp> and the description text looks odd
21:12:39 <sbp> oh, I should make that border solid
21:12:43 <sbp> note that I took out the ISBNs
21:13:00 <AaronSw> Just curious: does "class-warfare baiting" mean anything other than "I'm rich and I disagree"?
21:13:15 <verbosus> will the new site be a wiki?
21:13:25 <sbp> verbosus: I'm not sure yet...
21:13:41 <sbp> okay, refresh
21:13:45 <sbp> that border looks better
21:13:49 <sbp> and I changed the background color
21:13:58 <sbp> I should probably change the border color too
21:13:59 <verbosus> background darker
21:14:04 <sbp> really?
21:14:10 <verbosus> I mean: make it darker
21:14:15 <sbp> not as dark as before, though?
21:14:15 <verbosus> or make the border lighter
21:14:22 <verbosus> there should be less contrast between them
21:14:25 <sbp> I'll make the border lighter first, see how it goes
21:14:26 <sbp> yeah
21:14:27 <verbosus> (IMHO)
21:15:25 <sbp> okay, uploaded
21:15:45 <verbosus> even lighter?
21:16:26 <verbosus> That blue bar in the middle of the page should go as well: why not get rid of it altogether?
21:16:50 <sbp> blue bar? really
21:16:55 <sbp> oh, it's blue because the page used to be blue
21:17:08 <sbp> I'll lighten the border more and make it the same colour
21:17:54 <verbosus> and add a bit more padding to that box (and I reckon the main box as well)
21:18:00 <sbp> done, uploaded
21:18:04 <sbp> adding...
21:18:23 <verbosus> oh well, I’ll stop giving orders right now
21:18:27 <verbosus> sorry, sbp :-)
21:18:40 <sbp> it's fine
21:18:53 <verbosus> I see a "groovy border"
21:18:56 <sbp> hmm. bit too much padding, I think
21:19:08 <sbp> * sbp makes it solid
21:19:30 <verbosus> nono, the padding’s fine
21:20:00 <sbp> not for someone without ample resolution
21:20:10 <verbosus> it starts looking good again to me
21:20:25 <sbp> yeah
21:20:27 <sbp> try it now
21:20:39 <verbosus> ok, a couple of notes
21:20:45 <sbp> problem is, the link bar is on two different levels for me
21:20:53 <verbosus> same here
21:20:53 <sbp> you guys obviously can't see it. it looks horrible
21:20:56 <sbp> ah
21:21:05 <verbosus> remove the margin from that heading
21:21:17 <thelsdj> wow the font is actually readable now :)
21:21:19 <sbp> which heading?
21:21:24 <verbosus> "selected publications"
21:21:44 <sbp> * sbp has applied no font style at all--is going with browser defaults!
21:21:45 <sbp> okay
21:21:57 <sbp> er
21:21:59 <verbosus> also, there should be more space between the main heading with "interdisciplinary holistic..." as well and that box with the contact info
21:22:02 <sbp> it doesn't have any margin
21:22:10 <sbp> but it's floated
21:22:12 <sbp> that's the problem
21:22:18 <sbp> that's why I didn't want to use float
21:22:37 <verbosus> no, wait, I think that’s not the problem
21:22:46 <verbosus> headings have default margins in HTML
21:23:31 <sbp> I've set them to 0
21:23:37 <verbosus> later, I would re-introduce Georgia with some nice leading
21:23:56 <verbosus> it didn’t work: maybe it’s the float indeed ;-)
21:24:41 <sbp> okay, I think I've fixed it...
21:24:58 <verbosus> yeah, fixed in Safari
21:25:01 <sbp> uploading...
21:25:10 <verbosus> could you add a bit more padding-left to that box?
21:25:16 <verbosus> Selected is too near the line
21:26:09 <sbp> really? okay...
21:26:41 <AaronSw> Tax money pays for the NEA, ads claiming that Bush's Medicare bill is good, ads saying terrorists are all around us and we need to Be Ready, opinion reporting on PBS and NPR, the entire C-SPAN network giving voice to the opinions of various congressmen, the publication of the Congressional Record and the various resolutions passed ("Frederick Douglass was [...] influential", "Prime Minister of Great Britain [has shown] stalwart l
21:26:41 <AaronSw> eadership"), laws which express certain opinions (marriage is between a man and a woman, violence against women has great economic costs for society), and much more.
21:26:50 <verbosus> also a bit more margin-top and -bottom to the contact/publication/log box
21:27:00 <sbp> verbosus: done
21:27:09 <verbosus> wicked
21:27:36 <verbosus> text now gets a bit too near the line as well, but we’ll fix that later
21:28:30 <sbp> (PDF? heh)
21:28:46 <sbp> so now what's wrong with it?
21:28:49 <Ash> lalalalalalalala
21:29:06 <verbosus> margin on the upper box
21:29:23 <verbosus> and me playing pool picture
21:29:24 <sbp> the very top of the whole thing? yeah, I was thinking that
21:29:31 <sbp> I'll change the picture too
21:29:43 <verbosus> nope, in the articles/contact box
21:30:13 <verbosus> then a touch of georgia and it’ll be fine ;-)
21:30:17 <sbp> oh. want more or less?
21:30:23 <verbosus> more -top and -bottom
21:30:38 <sbp> hmm
21:30:47 <verbosus> * verbosus pretends to be a designer
21:31:00 <sbp> uploaded
21:31:23 <verbosus> text needs to be taken care of
21:31:35 <sbp> what text?
21:31:44 <verbosus> default size Georgia and Times are totally different as to leading
21:32:02 <sbp> ...
21:32:31 <verbosus> font: 1em/1.2em Georgia; (not sure about 1.2, need to see it working)
21:33:01 <sbp> eek
21:33:01 <verbosus> oh and even *more* space around that top box
21:33:04 <verbosus> heh
21:33:27 <sbp> okay, uploaded. that font thing did not work...
21:33:52 <sbp> too much line height
21:33:54 <sbp> way too much
21:33:57 <verbosus> too much?
21:33:59 <sbp> if anything, I'd reduce it on mine
21:34:03 <sbp> like, by miles
21:34:04 <verbosus> yeah
21:34:10 <verbosus> screenshot?
21:34:22 <sbp> sure
21:34:34 <thelsdj> Articles: example.org blog: miscoranda.com Contact: email · IRC its still not consistant, either capitalize the B in blog and lowercase irc or lowercase everything
21:35:40 <sbp> changing...
21:36:16 <thelsdj> might look best with the dropcaps but everything lowercase, dunno till i'd see it
21:36:43 <verbosus> * verbosus gets some food
21:36:43 <sbp> oh shit, PDF
21:36:50 <verbosus> sorry, should have warned
21:36:58 <verbosus> that’s the default over here
21:37:03 <sbp> heh. it tends to screw up and crash firebird...
21:37:28 <verbosus> I really need to find an app that does .png screenshots on OS X
21:37:33 <sbp> see what I mean about the line height?
21:37:35 <sbp> (yeah)
21:37:51 <sbp> loading seperately's fine, though, so I just wget -c it
21:38:14 <sbp> I really need to alias wget='wget -c'
21:38:32 <AaronSw> looks a little better
21:38:52 <sbp> odd. the PDF isn't opening
21:39:00 <sbp> no, it looks horrible
21:39:04 <verbosus> your png is 404 as well
21:39:06 <sbp> check out homepage-screenshot.png
21:39:14 <sbp> really? oh. infomesh.net, not infomesh
21:39:15 <sbp> sorry
21:39:21 <verbosus> Do you guys know what mozzarella is?
21:39:27 <sbp> yep
21:39:30 <AaronSw> horrible: yes, a little better
21:39:34 <sbp> heh
21:39:52 <verbosus> in Italy we have various kinds of mozzarella, and my father just brough home the *best* one in the world
21:40:09 <AaronSw> you're still using three fonts
21:40:12 <sbp> cool
21:40:17 <sbp> three fonts? I'm not at all
21:40:27 <AaronSw> mozzarella is a type of cheese, right?
21:40:32 <sbp> there is only *one* font family declartion in the entire thing
21:40:39 <verbosus> AaronSw: sort of
21:40:45 <AaronSw> what's the sans-serif used in the headings?
21:40:54 <verbosus> sbp: I see Gill Sans and Georgia over here
21:40:56 <sbp> there is only *two* font family declartion in the entire thing
21:41:07 <AaronSw> :-)
21:41:10 <sbp> heh, heh
21:41:13 <AaronSw> and georgia small caps
21:41:14 <sbp> I forgot about that
21:41:23 <sbp> small caps? oh, well, that doesn't really count
21:41:27 <verbosus> that doesn’t count as one
21:41:37 <sbp> I don't think that georgia text and gill sans headings is inconsistent
21:41:38 <AaronSw> yes it does. i'm using cheshire dave's counting system
21:41:53 <AaronSw> it may not be inconsistent, but it's ugly ;)
21:42:01 <sbp> * sbp watches as Cheshire Dave replaces djb
21:42:07 <sbp> can you design a better mock up, then?
21:42:08 <verbosus> Naah, it’s not too bad
21:42:11 <sbp> keep the colours, though
21:42:12 <AaronSw> djb doesn't do fonts, afaict
21:42:18 <AaronSw> just change gill sans to georgia
21:42:24 <sbp> ew
21:42:26 <verbosus> AaronSw: where’s this counting system?
21:42:31 <sbp> (aw crap, Firefox has crashed)
21:42:49 <sbp> can't adobe make a system that doesn't screw up my computer one day?
21:43:33 <AaronSw> verbosus, used for http://cheshiredave.com/mastication/covers/
21:43:57 <sbp> Georgia headers looks firghtful
21:44:04 <verbosus> hold on
21:44:11 <verbosus> how many fonts are in here? http://www.cheshiredave.com/mastication/current.html
21:44:38 <sbp> * sbp goes back to Gill Sans
21:45:15 <sbp> yeah, there are like seven in there
21:45:25 <sbp> and actually, it does look a bit inconsistent
21:45:37 <sbp> I like the feel, but I don't like the effect
21:45:38 <thelsdj> wow the header actually fits on 800x600 screen now
21:45:53 <sbp> heh, heh
21:46:00 <verbosus> but AaronSw is right: some of Cheshire Dave’s posters are good
21:46:03 <sbp> it's not even too bad on mine now either
21:46:20 <AaronSw> ah, here's where he explains it: http://www.cheshiredave.com/mastication/covers/200307/oprah.html
21:46:45 <AaronSw> oops, never mind
21:47:43 <verbosus> Apparently not, because it’s back, too, in all its unbalanced O-ness and its own two fonts, which brings the total to four, just on this little banner.
21:48:04 <verbosus> That was a quote, actually
21:48:54 <sbp> I need to work on my ls family
21:49:04 <sbp> by the way, today's #swhack logs are shaping up to be the largest of all time
21:49:09 <sbp> we're only a few KB away
21:49:21 <sbp> top ones:
21:49:21 <sbp> 130 2002-03-28.txt
21:49:22 <sbp> 127 2002-04-25.txt
21:49:22 <sbp> 109 2002-01-16.txt
21:49:22 <sbp> 106 2001-11-02.txt
21:49:22 <verbosus> and off we go with walls of quoting then
21:49:23 <sbp> 100 2004-02-06.txt
21:49:26 <sbp> today:
21:49:27 <sbp> $ GET http://notabug.com/swhack/chatlogs/2004-02-11.txt | wc
21:49:29 <sbp> 2146 19504 124237
21:49:36 <sbp> heh, heh. yeah, come on Aaron--don't let us down!
21:49:47 <sbp> we're already in third place
21:50:07 <thelsdj> is it based on GMT?
21:50:11 <verbosus> uh!
21:50:17 <sbp> but it's getting towards ten o'clock so I dunno if we'll do it
21:50:20 <sbp> thelsdj: yep!
21:50:24 <verbosus> Cheshire Dave is the guy who did Behind the Typeface!
21:50:24 <thelsdj> hehe
21:50:31 <sbp> yet another reason for you to worry about being 2 more hours off
21:50:32 <verbosus> That was genius!
21:50:48 <verbosus> * verbosus is one hour off
21:50:53 <thelsdj> * thelsdj chokes on ramen noodles
21:51:25 <sbp> * sbp wonders what we were doing on 2002-03-28 that was so exciting
21:51:43 <verbosus> pasting walls of quotes, of course!
21:51:51 <thelsdj> probably dave bashing or something
21:51:55 <verbosus> building a quote-city
21:52:11 <sbp> ah!
21:52:11 <sbp> 20:20:27 <irc.openprojects.net> Disconnected from irc.openprojects.net (ERROR :Closing Link: loggy (K-lined))
21:52:11 <sbp> 20:20:29 <irc.openprojects.net> Disconnected from irc.openprojects.net (ERROR :Closing Link: loggy (Banned))
21:52:11 <sbp> 20:20:33 <irc.openprojects.net> Disconnected from irc.openprojects.net (ERROR :Closing Link: loggy (Banned))
21:52:17 <sbp> there are tons of lines like that
21:52:22 <AaronSw> yeah, Behind the Typeface was great
21:52:25 <sbp> it's the day when we all got K-Lined! whee!
21:52:31 <thelsdj> hahah
21:52:35 <verbosus> Cooper Black, I loved it.
21:52:51 <sbp> (the first time, in fact, I think)
21:52:56 <verbosus> walls of klines then!
21:53:00 <sbp> heh, heh
21:53:02 <verbosus> why did you get K-Lined?
21:53:13 <sbp> Aaron went on holiday, and his bots ran amok
21:53:16 <sbp> twice
21:53:34 <verbosus> bad Aaron
21:53:39 <sbp> so each time I had to convince Freenode staff that it was just an accident, and to let all the people and bots with Vorpal DNS back on
21:53:46 <verbosus> NEVER GO ON HOLIDAY AGAIN
21:53:48 <verbosus> you fool
21:53:49 <sbp> heh, heh
21:53:53 <sbp> it was pretty funny
21:54:11 <sbp> us getting K-Lined? we're like the cornerstone of Freenode society
21:54:30 <AaronSw> yeah, now that lilo's my friend i think we'll be OK
21:54:44 <sbp> orkut doesn't count
21:55:04 <verbosus> orkut sucks!
21:55:08 <Ash> lilo looks like a child molester
21:55:55 <sbp> you heard it here first on #swhack, folks!
21:56:12 <AaronSw> sbp, if you're going to insist on Gill Sans, can you at least make it not bold
21:56:22 <sbp> * sbp tries it
21:56:22 <AaronSw> bold gill sans is borderline-disgusting when used all willy-nilly
21:56:33 <verbosus> naaah
21:56:42 <sbp> (willy-nilly? man...)
21:56:47 <verbosus> where are the bloody quote-walls, by the way?
21:57:03 <sbp> what are the bloody quote-walls, by the way?
21:57:05 <sbp> [[[]]]?
21:57:09 <AaronSw> | foo
21:57:10 <AaronSw> | bar
21:57:12 <AaronSw> | baz
21:57:16 <sbp> they're technically quote deelies
21:57:16 <AaronSw> -- bozo the clown
21:57:20 <Ash> kfdasklafd
21:57:21 <sbp> bleh
21:57:25 <AaronSw> dsjikn
21:57:29 <verbosus> I can’t believe that #swhack’s greatest day is sbp’s homepage redesign day
21:57:45 <verbosus> oh well
21:57:46 <sbp> Aaron: ooh, I like it
21:57:47 <sbp> heh, heh
21:57:49 <thelsdj> and the day of the worlds smallest wiki
21:57:49 <sbp> and WikKe!
21:57:53 <sbp> yeah
21:57:59 <sbp> Aaron: uploaded
21:58:43 <verbosus> I think it was better bold
21:58:46 <verbosus> * verbosus ducks
21:58:47 <AaronSw> i don't
21:58:54 <verbosus> heh
21:59:09 <AaronSw> how come you don't attribute Dylan with an em-dash and italics?
21:59:12 <sbp> it's looking a bit bookish again, though
21:59:16 <sbp> oh, that was just thrown in
21:59:21 <AaronSw> bookish?
21:59:22 <sbp> I probably won't use those quotes
21:59:31 <sbp> yes... it's quite classical
21:59:33 <AaronSw> tha blue box is still annoying me
21:59:43 <thelsdj> i like it non-bold
21:59:49 <sbp> oh, right. I'll change its color
21:59:59 <AaronSw> as is the or you could get rid of the box...
22:00:06 <AaronSw> as is the small caps
22:00:59 <AaronSw> you need a clear before the bottom of the big white box, for when the picture goes down past it
22:01:29 <sbp> hmm?
22:01:42 <sbp> (uploaded new bordery and small-caps-less version)
22:01:55 <sbp> why would the picture go down past it?
22:02:10 <AaronSw> it does when i make the font small
22:02:15 <sbp> okay
22:02:22 <verbosus> picture: MUCH better
22:02:34 <sbp> .box { clear: all; }?
22:02:36 <sbp> verbosus: thanks
22:02:36 <AaronSw> you still have small caps startin off your first content <p>, but much better
22:02:43 <verbosus> border, better yet
22:02:54 <verbosus> I’d keep the small caps
22:03:07 <sbp> I'm not sure about the h1 now
22:03:09 <verbosus> I don’t see why they should be considered harmful
22:03:11 <sbp> it looks very weak
22:03:12 <AaronSw> yeah, they're decent except at my small size
22:03:14 <verbosus> bolden that
22:03:21 <AaronSw> weak is good
22:03:36 <verbosus> AaronSw: I see what you mean. Using safari?
22:03:41 <AaronSw> yeah
22:03:51 <verbosus> Cmd +! ;-)
22:03:52 <AaronSw> sbp, just put a <br style="clear: all" /> before the last </div>
22:04:06 <AaronSw> don't waste my screen, piddly designer
22:04:15 <AaronSw> nature wants text to be small
22:04:22 <AaronSw> or she'd have given us worse eyes
22:04:28 <verbosus> WTF?
22:04:49 <verbosus> then my eyes must be pretty bad as I like text to be bigger
22:05:12 <AaronSw> yeah, well evolution will kill you soon enough
22:05:18 <AaronSw> ;-)
22:05:25 <verbosus> * verbosus looks up piddly in the dictionary ;-)
22:05:43 <verbosus> No entry found for piddly.
22:05:56 <verbosus> Did you mean puddly?
22:06:06 <AaronSw> http://home.t-online.de/home/toni.goeller/idiom_wm/id465.htm
22:06:30 <verbosus> What a piddly car!" "Yes. It's a Micra."
22:07:34 <sbp> okay, I've added the br clear, boldened the title, fiddled with the line height in the descrption which was all weird for me
22:07:43 <sbp> how's that?
22:08:02 <AaronSw> http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00178798
22:08:10 <AaronSw> = PIDDLING ppl. a. 1.
22:08:13 <verbosus> nice
22:08:15 <AaronSw> 1946 B. MARSHALL George Brown's Schooldays xv. 72 Filthy little funks, skittering away down a piddly little track like that.
22:08:40 <verbosus> So piddly ~= little?
22:08:44 <sbp> yeah
22:09:02 <AaronSw> I really don't like the look of gill sans bold
22:09:08 <AaronSw> 1. Trifling, insignificant, petty, paltry.
22:09:20 <verbosus> sbp: more margin -top and -bottom on that upper box! :-p
22:09:32 <verbosus> yeah *even* more!
22:09:45 <AaronSw> 1559 J. AYLMER Harborowe Qijb, You haue the pidlyng Scottes, whiche are alwayes Frenche for their lyues.
22:09:50 <sbp> ugh
22:10:09 <sbp> it's already got as much padding as the entire height of the heading itself
22:10:13 <AaronSw> some white space between the articles and welog and contact would be good
22:10:19 <sbp> pretty soon you'll not be able to see the text
22:10:23 <sbp> hmm. okay
22:10:31 <sbp> ooh, I can use the unicode spaces. em-space!
22:11:10 <verbosus> indeed
22:11:26 <AaronSw> anybody want anything from the OED while I'm on?
22:12:26 <sbp> yes! hang on
22:12:52 <sbp> postlogue, please?
22:13:10 <sbp> (and reload the homepage)
22:14:07 <AaronSw> there is no postlogue. closest match: postlude
22:14:21 <AaronSw> closest alphabetical match, that is
22:14:28 <sbp> great
22:14:31 <sbp> thanks!
22:14:36 <sbp> hmm
22:14:42 <sbp> should I make the entire first paragraph bold?
22:14:59 <AaronSw> nothing else? not post-mediastinum?
22:15:38 <sbp> no thanks. there's probably hundreds of things that I want really, but I can't think of any
22:16:11 <sbp> bold first paragraph? yay? nay?
22:16:17 <sbp> and what do you think of the smaller overall font-size?
22:16:18 <verbosus> more line-height
22:16:25 <sbp> more line-height where?
22:16:32 <sbp> see, there's already *too* *much* for me
22:16:32 <verbosus> body
22:16:47 <thelsdj> hmmmm, something i just noticed, 'An Homepage'? that doesn't sound right when spoken outloud
22:16:49 <verbosus> * verbosus writes w/ one hand
22:17:05 <AaronSw> wow, Post Toasties are in the OED
22:17:07 <verbosus> eating w/ other
22:17:18 <sbp> putting in 1em/1.2em destroys it, too
22:17:30 <sbp> thelsdj: heh, heh. I'm glad someone finally noticed that
22:17:41 <thelsdj> i noticed it yesterday but forgot about it
22:17:44 <sbp> I was going to put An 'Omepage, but I thought I'd leave people to "huh?" it out
22:17:45 <sbp> hehe
22:18:02 <AaronSw> sean lives in an halternate universe
22:18:11 <sbp> hehheh
22:18:24 <sbp> okay, uploaded the bold first paragraph version
22:18:42 <verbosus> which sucks bigtime
22:19:23 <thelsdj> that is so wrong
22:19:25 <thelsdj> GET RID OF IT
22:19:27 <thelsdj> haha
22:19:38 <sbp> removed
22:20:20 <sbp> * sbp wonders how we're doing in the log stakes
22:20:36 <verbosus> ooooooh
22:20:36 <sbp> Ctrl+R in bash is joy, btw
22:20:44 <sbp> $ GET http://notabug.com/swhack/chatlogs/2004-02-11.txt | wc
22:20:44 <sbp> 2333 20975 133821
22:20:57 <sbp> it seems we're winning
22:21:02 <thelsdj> eyup
22:21:02 <verbosus> are we *there*?
22:21:07 <sbp> I think so, yup
22:21:09 <thelsdj> and i don't think theres any competition
22:21:11 <thelsdj> except from the future
22:21:13 <sbp> heh, heh
22:21:15 <sbp> yeah
22:21:23 <verbosus> ARE WE?
22:21:32 <sbp> pretty much, yes
22:21:39 <sbp> biggest previous was 130KB
22:21:56 <verbosus> “pretty much” isn’t an answer!
22:22:03 <sbp> YES. YES YES YES YES YES
22:22:07 <sbp> WE HAVE WON
22:22:09 <sbp> there
22:22:12 <AaronSw> wow, pot as a synonym for pot belly dates back to 1928
22:22:16 <verbosus> heh
22:22:26 <sbp> hehe. I like that
22:22:34 <sbp> "<sbp> WE HAVE WON" "<AaronSw> wow, pot as a synonym for pot belly dates back to 1928"
22:22:41 <sbp> Aaron Swartz: Mr. Oblivious
22:23:10 <verbosus> he’ll be offering the drinks
22:23:17 <sbp> I've always thought it a shame that the OED doesn't actually record its sources
22:23:25 <sbp> I mean it says, hey, this word dates back to NNNN
22:23:36 <sbp> and then goes on to not prove that or back up its assertion in any manner
22:23:45 <sbp> which is annoying when you want to study a word's evolution
22:23:52 <sbp> they should be required to cite their sources
22:23:57 <sbp> I mean, come on. how standard is that?
22:24:15 <verbosus> get them using CVS!
22:24:19 <sbp> heh, heh
22:24:23 <verbosus> Subversion, that is.
22:24:26 <sbp> get them a large grant. they really need more money
22:24:27 <sbp> (yeah)
22:24:46 <sbp> and a wiki. they should just export the whole lot of text to a wiki and maintain it
22:24:52 <verbosus> BTW: svn is scheduled to go 1.0 in a couple of weeks
22:25:02 <verbosus> OED => wikipedia
22:25:08 <sbp> I want to know where twyndyllyngs was mentioned
22:25:19 <sbp> yeah, except wikipedia is not a dictionary
22:25:27 <sbp> but wiktionary, perhaps
22:25:36 <AaronSw> huh?
22:25:40 <AaronSw> it provides full quotes and citations
22:25:41 <verbosus> http://wiktionary.org/
22:25:50 <AaronSw> re: <sbp> I've always thought it a shame that the OED doesn't actually record its sources
22:25:57 <sbp> okay. so find where twyndyllyngs was mentioned then, please?
22:26:01 <AaronSw> e.g. 1992 J. WHEDON Buffy the Vampire Slayer (film script) 8 A stranger, walking the other way, bumps into Buffy, doesn't stop... Buffy. Excuse much! Not rude or anything. 1992 J. WHEDON Buffy the Vampire Slayer (film script) 25 Pike and Benny have entered the diner, quite drunk... Kimberly (to the other girls) Smell of booze much.
22:26:09 <sbp> (groan)
22:26:32 <sbp> you'lln't find twyndyllyngs's source
22:26:44 <sbp> because I'm pretty sure it is not in there
22:26:55 <sbp> the source, not the word. the word is under twinlings
22:27:01 <sbp> or twinling, rather
22:27:15 <verbosus> * verbosus guesses he’ll have to change tacticts to become world-famous
22:27:27 <verbosus> Atom to RSS went unnoticed on atom-syntax ;-)
22:27:43 <sbp> oh, you did an Atom to RSS thing?
22:27:46 <AaronSw> a1300 Cursor M. 3445 (Cott.) Now sco bredes tua for ane, Tuinlinges [v.rr. tuynlinges, twynlynges, twinlinges].
22:27:50 <verbosus> LOL
22:27:58 <AaronSw> 1483 Cath. Angl. 399/1 A Twynlynge (A. Twyndyllyng), gemellus.
22:28:20 <sbp> well bugger me. fair enough
22:28:24 <sbp> Cath. Angl.?
22:28:32 <verbosus> Catholic Anglican?
22:28:40 <verbosus> * verbosus wants to know who the hell is maddox.dnshighspeed.com
22:29:03 <verbosus> He’s been hammering my website all day long with some dumbass robot
22:29:21 <sbp> while True: ping('maddox.dnshighspeed.com')
22:30:16 <AaronSw> ooh, it even makes a date chart for you
22:30:23 <AaronSw> Forms: see TWIN; also 4-6 -lyng(e, -linge, 5 -lenge, 8 -lin; 5 twyndyllyng. [ME., f. TWIN a. and n. + -LING1. Cf. in the same sense Norw. dial. tvinnling, MSw. and MDa. tvinling, NFris. twen-, twanling, MLG. twenneling, MHG. zwinlinch, zwineling, (OHG. zwiniling); also the reduced or variant forms Da., Sw., Norw. tvilling, WFris. twielling (twilling), MDu. twilinc, twlinc (Du. tweeling), MLG. twlinc, MHG. zwillinc (G. zwilling).
22:30:35 <sbp> hmm. I think that John Cowan was on IRC. but I'm not sure
22:30:47 <sbp> ooh, great
22:31:01 <sbp> I'm still not sure that I get the source, though
22:31:08 <sbp> .google gemellus
22:31:09 <datum> gemellus: http://www.rad.washington.edu/atlas2/infgemellus.html
22:31:16 <AaronSw> obviously it was a list of births and someone had twins
22:31:50 <AaronSw> i can't understand the OED's shorthand
22:31:51 <sbp> ah
22:31:51 <sbp> Tiberius Gemellus (AD 19-37/38). Garrett G. Fagan. ... Gemellus's brother
22:31:51 <sbp> died in infancy, but lent the nickname Gemellus ("The Twin") to our subject. ...
22:31:51 <sbp> www.roman-emperors.org/gemell.htm
22:32:19 <sbp> doesn't record the place or anything, though
22:33:10 <AaronSw> http://dictionary.oed.com/help/Abbreviations/combined_f.htm
22:34:00 <sbp> right, Catholic Anglican
22:34:08 <verbosus> * verbosus is catholic
22:34:13 <sbp> what's "399/1", though?
22:34:44 <AaronSw> Here's the HTML: <!--start_q--><NOBR><B><!--start_d-->1483<!--end_d--></B></NOBR> <I><!--start_w-->Cath. Angl.<!--end_w--></I> 399/1 <!--start_qt-->A Twynlynge (<I>A</I>. Twyndyllyng), <I>gemellus</I>.<!--end_qt--><!--end_q-->
22:34:56 <sbp> A Twynlynge is ante-dates Twynlynge...
22:35:20 <verbosus> q, d, qt
22:35:23 <verbosus> w
22:35:30 <AaronSw> 399/1 is page 399, column 1, no?
22:35:35 <verbosus> is that their SGML vocabulary?
22:36:05 <verbosus> am I wrong or did Tim Bray have anything to do with the OED’s online edition?
22:36:30 <AaronSw> aha! Catholicon Anglicum, an English-Latin wordbook c1483 (E.E.T.S. 1881)
22:36:53 <sbp> page/column would make sense... but what book? what register?
22:36:55 <sbp> aah!
22:36:57 <sbp> hehheh
22:36:59 <sbp> thanks!
22:37:01 <sbp> .google "Catholicon Anglicum"
22:37:02 <datum> "Catholicon Anglicum": http://www.boydell.co.uk/4736.HTM
22:37:26 <AaronSw> that's from http://dictionary.oed.com/help/OED_guide/bibliography_f.htm
22:37:55 <sbp> thanks
22:37:59 <sbp> * sbp searches his library for it
22:39:45 <AaronSw> heh, of course OUP publishes it
22:39:57 <AaronSw> ah, because it's the OED's precursor
22:40:15 <sbp> the original only exists in two copies: one in the collection of Lord Monson, and the other in the British Library
22:40:20 <AaronSw> " The Early English Text Society was founded in 1864 by Frederick James Furnivall, with the help of Richard Morris, Walter Skeat, and others, to bring the mass of unprinted Early English literature within the reach of students and to provide sound texts from which the New English Dictionary (subsequently the Oxford English Dictionary) could quote."
22:40:32 <sbp> I don't think that the 1999 reprint is the same version, is it?
22:40:43 <sbp> heh
22:40:43 <AaronSw> the british library thinks its so special because its got all these old books
22:40:54 <sbp> yeah, and won't let you access them...
22:41:04 <AaronSw> well guess what? here in AMERICA, we have new books -- so there!
22:41:53 <sbp> we have those too. nyahh
22:42:10 <AaronSw> same version?
22:42:36 <sbp> of what?
22:42:41 <AaronSw> <sbp> I don't think that the 1999 reprint is the same version, is it?
22:42:46 <sbp> oh
22:43:13 <AaronSw> i mean, a reprint of a 1493 book is approximately the same whether done in 1881 or 1999, no?
22:43:14 <sbp> that is, I doubt that this: http://www.boydell.co.uk/4736.HTM
22:43:14 <sbp> corresponds to this: Catholicon Anglicum, 1493
22:43:14 <sbp> er, 1483
22:43:26 <sbp> oh, you think it is? hmm
22:43:41 <AaronSw> it says EETS 1883 in the OED, that book is published by the EETS
22:43:45 <sbp> odd that our library doesn't have a copy
22:43:49 <sbp> I see. cool
22:44:25 <AaronSw> amazon.com has it
22:44:36 <sbp> expensive, I'll bet
22:44:47 <AaronSw> $60
22:45:00 <sbp> hmm. £35
22:45:07 <sbp> not bad, I guess. but for a useless book, well...
22:45:08 <AaronSw> full title: Ship to:
22:45:18 <AaronSw> full title: Catholicon Anglicum, an English-Latin Workbook, Dated 1483
22:45:20 <sbp> interesting title
22:45:22 <sbp> heh, heh
22:45:36 <sbp> Sidney J.H. Herrtage?
22:45:56 <sbp> there are two on amazon.co.uk
22:46:09 <sbp> out of stock:
22:46:09 <sbp> Catholicon Anglicum, an English-Latin Workbook, Dated 1483
22:46:09 <sbp> Sidney J.H. Herrtage
22:46:15 <sbp> and:
22:46:15 <sbp> Catholicon Anglicum: English-Latin Workbook (Early English Text Society, Original S.)
22:46:15 <sbp> S.J.H. Herrtage (Editor), H.B. Wheatley (Editor)
22:46:39 <sbp> heh: [[[
22:46:39 <sbp> 1 new from £35.00
22:46:39 <sbp> 2 used from £74.00
22:46:40 <AaronSw> two used: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/offering/list/-/0527000744/
22:46:40 <sbp> ]]]
22:47:11 <sbp> $ python -c "print 54.0/1.8"
22:47:11 <sbp> 30.0
22:48:48 <AaronSw> mm, Volokh's book looks good
22:48:57 <sbp> heh, my library has a handful of S. J. H. Herrtage books...
22:49:10 <sbp> which one?
22:50:26 <AaronSw> THE FIRST AMENDMENT
22:50:37 <sbp> okay, okay, I was just asking...
22:50:50 <AaronSw> it's heavy and in all caps
22:51:09 <sbp> heh, heh
22:51:41 <AaronSw> I mean, if I had to carry around one of these for each amendment in my backpack...
22:51:52 <AaronSw> not to mention the articles!
22:52:20 <sbp> just scan it in
22:52:26 <sbp> carry the discs
22:52:49 <sbp> maybe the Beatles were talking about studying Constitutional Law with Carry That Weight
22:53:11 <AaronSw> heh
22:53:54 <AaronSw> and that's just the constitution! then there's the entire US Code (just the text, not the commentary, of which is like the size of 50 of these volumes) and the CFR explaining what it means, which is another 10 times that
22:54:00 <sbp> oh, did you see my "website organization by keywords and metakeywords" thing?
22:54:09 <sbp> oh joy
22:54:15 <AaronSw> * Classificatiana I
22:54:20 <sbp> nah
22:54:21 <AaronSw> yes
22:54:24 <sbp> it was on #swhack
22:54:41 <AaronSw> no then
22:55:05 <sbp> hehheh
22:55:13 <sbp> it's from today's logs. everything's from today's logs!
22:55:44 <sbp> from http://notabug.com/swhack/chatlogs/2004-02-11.html#T00-52-15 downwards
22:55:52 <sbp> you were there for the start of it, but you must have left
22:56:05 <sbp> I should write it up for Classificatiana II
22:57:11 <AaronSw> yeah, that's my ideal system
22:57:18 <sbp> really? wow, neat
22:57:29 <sbp> I thought you'd be all "no, sorry, you're wrong"
22:58:07 <AaronSw> well, the project namespace is separate from the category namespace
22:58:15 <AaronSw> but other than that you're pretty close
22:58:48 <AaronSw> right, so here's how text files work on IdealOS
22:59:00 <AaronSw> you open a new window and start typing. there's no save button, everything saved automatically
22:59:09 <AaronSw> if you close the window, you can get the file back through full text search
22:59:29 <AaronSw> if you drag the little icon from the window to send the link to somebody over the net, it generates a MeRS for use as the url
22:59:41 <AaronSw> then you associate metadata with it in the form of category-keywords
23:00:02 <AaronSw> so you'd say this is part of n3s. n3s is about sw, code, etc.
23:00:14 <sbp> how do you associate metadata with it? after the full text search?
23:00:24 <sbp> * sbp could program this probably semi-easily
23:00:36 <AaronSw> how? you mean UI-wise?
23:00:40 <sbp> yes
23:00:59 <AaronSw> there'd be a little bar (maybe just the top of the file) you'd type words into
23:01:14 <sbp> hmm
23:01:22 <sbp> * sbp searches for his old text editor experiments
23:01:22 <AaronSw> to find things you'd have an incremental search over the category data, so into the query box you'd type n3s spec and up would pop things in both categories
23:03:16 <sbp> seems that my old one didn't have any status information, but the new one had a bar for that, I'm quite sure
23:03:26 <sbp> I'm not sure that keywords work as a categorization system
23:03:35 <sbp> maybe it's because I'm so used to folders, folders everywhere now
23:03:52 <sbp> it's silly because folders are just dumb keywords
23:04:27 <sbp> * sbp imagines the URILess Office
23:05:05 <sbp> ah, found it
23:05:18 <sbp> wxPython was so much nicer across platforms than TKInter
23:05:33 <sbp> oh, I don't think I could get unicode to work
23:05:35 <sbp> that pissed me off
23:06:09 <sbp> hehe. it can open from the Web though
23:06:27 <sbp> argh, no drag and drop
23:06:29 <sbp> irritating
23:06:58 <AaronSw> BTW, Feynman doesn't consider math a science
23:07:03 <sbp> and no little "->/" thing to tell you that text is wrapping
23:07:07 <AaronSw> he says this isn't a value judgement, it's just not a science
23:07:19 <sbp> it seems that the general consensus is that it's not a science, or if it is, it's just barely one
23:07:56 <sbp> seems like a fuzzy and useless discussion, though
23:08:51 <AaronSw> "Mathematics is not a science from our point of view, in the sense that it is not a _natural_ science. The test of its validity is not experiment." - Feynman Lectures on Physics, 3-1
23:08:58 <sbp> ew, none of the find/replace/etc. stuff works
23:09:44 <sbp> one of the characterists of natural science is that its provability lies in experiment? I like that
23:09:59 <AaronSw> "We must, incidentally, make it clear from the beginning that if a thing is not a sicence, it is not necessarily bad. For example, love is not a science. So, if something is said not to be a science, it does not mean that there is something wrong with it; it just means that it is not a science." - ibid.
23:10:31 <sbp> .googlecount "Science of Love"
23:10:32 <datum> "Science of Love": 6,860
23:10:45 <sbp> .googlecount "Science of Feynman"
23:10:46 <datum> "Science of Feynman": 3
23:11:00 <AaronSw> Is experiment the test of love's validity?
23:11:02 <sbp> Feynman is not a science
23:11:12 <Morbus> *** Morbus (~morbus@s145.terminal4.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
23:11:25 <sbp> interesting question
23:11:28 <sbp> (hi Morbus)
23:11:37 <sbp> I think in a way it probably is
23:11:44 <sbp> and if you twist the words around, it definitely is
23:12:06 <sbp> does love exist? what is love? fuck something and find out!
23:12:25 <AaronSw> that seems to lack limerance
23:12:46 <sbp> limerance?
23:12:47 <AaronSw> err limerence
23:13:02 <sbp> limerence?
23:13:17 <AaronSw> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence
23:13:43 <libby> *** libby (~libby@82-32-4-244.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
23:14:08 <sbp> oh, well. I think you put it best...
23:14:20 <sbp> <sbp> * AaronSw: "For every problem, there is a solution that is elegant, valid, and unusable due to the mistakes of others."
23:14:20 <sbp> <sbp> * Tav: "That's a really intelligent sounding bunch of lies."
23:14:20 <sbp> <sbp> * AaronSw: "Heh, yeah. They're called jokes." [2.1.22
23:14:24 <sbp> hi there libby
23:15:01 <AaronSw> how is that connected?
23:15:11 <sbp> libby: 4.2.11 is the largest edition of #swhack ever!
23:15:17 <AaronSw> i don't even understand what I'm saying
23:15:21 <sbp> heh!
23:15:26 <AaronSw> in that quote
23:15:34 <sbp> I mean I was just joking
23:16:00 <libby> hello. glad to hear it
23:16:29 <AaronSw> shortly after: 00:26:21 <sbp> WTF are you talking about, Aaron?
23:16:48 <sbp> I said that about what you said?
23:17:11 <sbp> whoops
23:17:32 <sbp> it appears that one cannot pass arguments to the badly designed function for grepping the swhack logs
23:17:48 <sbp> and that as a result bash crashed
23:18:06 <sbp> hmm, that's odd
23:18:10 <sbp> it should've worked...
23:18:17 <verbosus> * verbosus goes to bed
23:18:21 <verbosus> cheers, everyone!
23:18:29 <sbp> 'night verbosus!
23:18:44 <verbosus> *** verbosus has quit ("Client exiting")
23:18:53 <AaronSw> ok, i understand my first comment now
23:19:11 <AaronSw> tav was presumably disagreeing
23:19:13 <sbp> * sbp wonders what's not to understand
23:19:16 <AaronSw> but i still don't get the last comment
23:19:17 <sbp> yes
23:19:32 <AaronSw> what's called jokes? lies?
23:19:41 <sbp> oh man
23:19:44 <sbp> you: [joke]
23:19:54 <sbp> tav: [takes you seriously, calls you a liar]
23:20:07 <sbp> you: [points out wittily and sardonically that it was a joke]
23:20:15 <AaronSw> i suppose that interpretation is reasonable
23:21:16 <sbp> aha!
23:21:16 <sbp> 00:25:40 <AaronSw> yeah, well that's one place where commas go: not where apostrophes belong.
23:21:16 <sbp> 00:26:13 <deltab> * deltab sees no commas or apostrophes
23:21:16 <sbp> 00:26:21 <sbp> WTF are you talking about, Aaron?
23:21:30 <sbp> you took me out of context. we were wondering about your comma and apostrophe thing
23:21:33 <sbp> not your wit
23:22:40 <sbp> * sbp wonders if saving every single keystoke is a good thing
23:22:56 <AaronSw> guilty as charge
23:22:57 <AaronSw> d
23:23:20 <sbp> how would the IdealOS cope with that?
23:25:26 <sbp> Well, Mr. Aaron Swartz of The Extremest Left Westermost Wing Copacabana Alliance?
23:25:29 <AaronSw> with what?
23:25:40 <sbp> with having to save the file after every single change
23:25:55 <sbp> and where would it save it? timestamped filename?
23:26:07 <AaronSw> I'm coming increasingly convinced that my political opinions are correct, in that they will be the majority political opinions in the future
23:26:24 <AaronSw> IdealOS wouldn't use a hierarchical file system
23:26:34 <AaronSw> at least not directly
23:26:37 <sbp> and is the (everyone thinks that) interface for finding previous files going to be the text editor, or something else?
23:26:48 <sbp> well, I'm thinking about actually using this right now
23:26:56 <sbp> I'm a programmer, I'm going to try it
23:27:11 <sbp> so I thought: I work a bit on ppr, I work a bit on n3s, I work a bit on pwyky
23:27:17 <sbp> then I think, hey I want to work on ppr again
23:27:23 <sbp> so I open the editor... then what?
23:27:56 <AaronSw> you type ppr and all the ppr files appear
23:28:01 <sbp> usually I'd go to the ppr folder and right click on ppr.py, go to edit. or $ wedit ppr.py in the shell. or open from the open command of the editor, rarely
23:28:20 <sbp> what if I wanted to write a new file with ppr in it?
23:28:20 <AaronSw> then you click/down-arrow to the correct one
23:28:23 <sbp> there must be some mode there
23:28:44 <AaronSw> yeah, there are two types of windows -- file windows and search windows
23:28:52 <sbp> sounds a lot like the current system
23:28:55 <AaronSw> you can split it into two apps, a finder and text editor
23:29:02 <AaronSw> just like Finder and TextEdit on OS X
23:29:03 <sbp> * sbp nods
23:29:08 <AaronSw> or OS 1 for that matter
23:29:26 <AaronSw> actually, Finder may have been in OS 2
23:29:27 <sbp> hmm
23:29:43 <sbp> problem comes when I actually want to test ppr.py in the shell
23:29:56 <AaronSw> as for archives of changes, you'd save the undostream with the file
23:30:10 <sbp> heh. yeah
23:30:48 <AaronSw> on a hierarchical file system, you could give the file whatever name you wanted. date-stamped would be fine, i guess
23:30:57 <AaronSw> users woi;d mever see ot
23:31:02 <AaronSw> would never see it
23:31:09 <sbp> yeah
23:31:24 <sbp> but I know I can't implement it now anyway, thinking about the shell thing
23:31:36 <sbp> I'd have to hack the shell to behave in a similar way to the finder
23:31:49 <sbp> python ppr
23:31:51 <AaronSw> no, you'd just have a metadata field named URL or something
23:31:53 <sbp> which ppr? select
23:32:03 <sbp> hmm
23:32:16 <AaronSw> in adittion to the keywords field
23:32:34 <AaronSw> you'd name it ppr.py and it'd go and save a copy someplace convenient under that name
23:32:35 <sbp> so then there's not really much point: it's just typing in a filename...
23:32:39 <sbp> ah
23:32:49 <sbp> hmm
23:33:00 <sbp> its vision of "convenient" might be quite different to mine
23:33:01 <AaronSw> the point is that names are optional
23:33:21 <AaronSw> and if you drag the file-icon into the terminal, it'd paste in the long name for you (or generate a short name and paste it)
23:33:35 <AaronSw> argh, i can't remember what those representational file icons are called
23:34:33 <sbp> deelies
23:34:45 <AaronSw> like tokens or totems or something
23:35:14 <AaronSw> anyway, you get the idea
23:35:31 <arcon> random: is xslt too complicated for templating websites?
23:35:34 <AaronSw> and if you drag into into an email or IRC, it generates a URI (perhaps by uploading it to your server)
23:35:44 <sbp> ooh, that's an idea
23:35:47 <AaronSw> arcon: xslt is just too complicated. use a real language
23:36:04 <AaronSw> and a real templating language
23:36:07 <arcon> a real language?
23:36:10 <sbp> it's not complicated. it's unweildy, unflexible
23:36:12 <AaronSw> like Cheetah
23:36:14 <arcon> I don't really want a language, I want a templating system
23:36:22 <arcon> which is why xsltscares me a bit
23:36:23 <sbp> XSLT is a language
23:36:31 <deltab> arcon: XSLT is awkward, I suggest XQuery
23:36:40 <AaronSw> Cheetah's a templating system. It does everything you need and its documetnation fits on a page
23:36:41 <arcon> XQuery for templating?
23:36:44 <sbp> is XQuery widely enough implemented yet?
23:36:52 <sbp> XQuery would be pretty cool
23:36:53 <AaronSw> OS X comes with an XQuery implementation
23:37:05 <deltab> oh?
23:37:06 <AaronSw> I have to write a Creative Commons parser in XQuery someday soon
23:37:07 <sbp> people do not live in your crazy OS X world
23:37:16 <arcon> now we are language specific, in whihc case I need php, not python
23:37:28 <sbp> .google XQuery
23:37:29 <datum> XQuery: http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/
23:37:35 <sbp> .google XQuery implementation
23:37:35 <datum> XQuery implementation: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/10/01/xquery.html
23:37:43 <AaronSw> datum, yeah, it's part of Sherlock
23:38:03 <sbp> ugh. Java. everywhere
23:38:07 <AaronSw> they hook it up to Interface Builder too, it's pretty cool actually
23:38:16 <datum> I think you mean deltab
23:38:16 <deltab> <datum> AaronSw: cool, thanks
23:38:29 <AaronSw> heh!
23:38:50 <AaronSw> datum's really growing spunk
23:39:01 <datum> You know it baby.
23:39:38 <AaronSw> soon it'll be dressing all goth and staying out all night
23:40:02 <sbp> it'd be nice if there were a simple C program in five lines that implemented XQuery and compiled well on any system
23:40:09 <sbp> it probably already is
23:40:59 <AaronSw> here's one in Scheme: http://www.gnu.org/software/qexo/
23:41:07 <AaronSw> and the scheme is in java
23:41:09 <AaronSw> and the java is in C
23:41:47 <sbp> great Aaron
23:41:51 <sbp> just great
23:41:54 <sbp> :-)
23:42:02 <sbp> .google XQuery implementation -Java
23:42:03 <datum> XQuery implementation -Java: http://www-rocq.inria.fr/gemo/Gemo/Projects/XIME-P/
23:42:14 <AaronSw> wow, you can use it to compile XQuery into Scheme into Java into C with the new gcj!
23:42:23 <libby> saxon?
23:42:58 <AaronSw> isn't that java?
23:43:10 <libby> oh duh sorry
23:43:13 <sbp> heh, heh
23:43:13 <libby> * libby tired
23:43:24 <libby> what's wrong w java anyway?
23:43:28 <AaronSw> Hm, there's a real opening for a program called saxoff
23:43:33 <sbp> Saxon's actually less of a pain that most. I'll try it
23:44:07 <AaronSw> you mean other than the thumbtacks?
23:44:30 <sbp> hehe
23:45:18 <sbp> argh. sourceforge. can't they choose a mirror for me?
23:45:23 <sbp> is it beyond their powers?
23:45:26 <AaronSw> yeah, really
23:46:05 <sbp> when your link says "saxon6_5_3.zip" you sorta expect it to be a zip file
23:46:32 <deltab> http://www.talkaboutabook.com/group/rec.arts.books/messages/431231.html
23:48:04 <sbp> ah. saxoff
23:48:46 <AaronSw> I don't understand all these people making fun of Clinton only sending two emails. I mean, do you see a computer in the oval office? Where is he supposed to send these emails from?
23:49:08 <sbp> he is the president of the united states of america
23:49:12 <sbp> he dictates to a minion
23:49:17 <sbp> the minion dictates to its minion
23:49:35 <sbp> the minion's minion goes out on a whim and a limb and writes a letter to Mr. GORE
23:49:38 <AaronSw> The President doesn't need email, when he calls someone, they pick up
23:49:44 <sbp> Mr. GORE invented the internet
23:49:48 <sbp> but he cannot use email
23:49:54 <sbp> so he asks Tipper to send the email
23:49:58 <sbp> which she willingly does
23:50:01 <sbp> the email is thus sent
23:50:01 <AaronSw> Gore carries a portable wireless email sending device with him at all times
23:50:08 <AaronSw> and never claims to have invented the Internet
23:50:23 <sbp> * sbp knows the latter, didn't know the former
23:50:52 <AaronSw> It used to be a Blackberry
23:51:04 <sbp> the Gore campaign?
23:51:08 <sbp> that makes no sense
23:51:11 <AaronSw> the device
23:51:13 <arcon> he was in a comitte that was instrumental in what became the internet (previously ARPANET) that was all
23:51:22 <AaronSw> But I mean, seriously, even if _I_ were President, I wouldn't send more than two email messages.
23:51:39 <AaronSw> He personally sponsored and pushed through the funding for the ARPANET
23:51:46 <AaronSw> it was like his pet projet
23:51:47 <sbp> which two emails would you send?
23:51:59 <thelsdj> i probably only sent a few more than 2 emails during the whole time clinton was president
23:52:48 <thelsdj> for all we k now clinton could have been on 100 email lists and read 100 emails daily yet never bothered to post :P
23:53:10 <sbp> like me
23:53:35 <AaronSw> http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200009/msg00052.html
23:54:33 <sbp> according to this: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=author%3Apresident%40whitehouse.gov&btnG=Google+Search the president has posted to usenet a dozenthousand times or more
23:55:52 <AaronSw> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author%3Apresident%40whitehouse.gov+author%3Aclinton+author:william is more realistic
23:56:13 <sbp> still 65
23:56:37 <Morbus> i think my first ever post was to alt.devilbunnies
23:56:42 <Morbus> * Morbus snickers.
23:56:48 <libby> heh
23:56:48 <AaronSw> Morbus invented the devilbunnies
23:56:49 <sbp> what's that about?
23:57:22 <sbp> perl.macosx, eh?!
23:58:26 <sbp> [[[
23:58:27 <sbp> > and the movie "Hackers" are all to blame. anyone want to help develop an
23:58:27 <sbp> Hahah... he said "Hackers". That movie, cybersucked.
23:58:27 <sbp> <\/>
23:58:27 <sbp> [---- www.disobey.com ----]
23:58:27 <sbp> [---why have't you come?---]
23:58:32 <sbp> ]]] - A Young Morbus Iff
23:58:47 <Morbus> :)
23:58:53 <Morbus> before i knew the importance of http://
23:59:39 <sbp> ah, I think alt.hackintosh was first
23:59:47 <sbp> interesting message too
