00:50:46 <sbp> Interrobang: heh, cool. and it's not a half bad comic either
00:51:15 <jillzilla> :)
00:51:35 <sbp> least irritating: I meant that as in the-most-possibly-non-irritating-anyone-could-be sense
00:52:05 <sbp> Cisco/24th February: OMG!
00:52:10 <Ash> lalala
00:52:10 <Ash> hi
00:52:16 <Ash> ooh going home sweet
00:52:26 <sbp> or later than it
00:52:32 <sbp> hey Jill, bye Ash
00:52:44 <thelsdj> *** thelsdj has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:52:48 <d8uv> Total amount of blood lost this week!
00:52:48 <d8uv> 893947
00:52:48 <d8uv> 389363
00:52:48 <d8uv> 498546
00:52:49 <d8uv> 238974
00:52:51 <d8uv> 286545
00:52:53 <d8uv> 298725
00:52:55 <d8uv> 387125
00:52:57 <d8uv> 290125
00:52:59 <d8uv> 100125
00:53:01 <d8uv> 000125
00:53:03 <d8uv> 000125
00:53:26 <d8uv> I lost another 60 or so at work. It was suck.
00:53:33 <sbp> eek
00:54:21 <deltab> * deltab watches Buffy
00:55:13 <d8uv> It was socially embarrasing.
00:55:50 <sbp> haha: http://tailsteak.netherweb.com/archive.php?num=168
00:55:51 <jillzilla> * jillzilla waves
00:55:56 <sbp> hiya jill!
00:56:06 <sbp> d8uv: you should've signed something
00:58:12 <sbp> man, someone's sent me an huge email
00:58:14 <sbp> (ooge)
00:58:26 <sbp> it willn't download
00:59:17 <sbp> s/Feb/May/
00:59:28 <sbp> it's all good, it's all good
00:59:29 <sbp> lalala
00:59:38 <sbp> where's that AaronSw got to?
01:05:03 <sbp> ah, it actually is the source: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/Feb04/02-12windowssource.asp
01:05:23 <sbp> today's Achewood is GREAT
01:06:31 <sbp> I could really do with a Rickenbacker right now...
01:13:56 <sbp> comments on Dave Winer on another channel:
01:13:56 <sbp> <A> "I Invented Invention In 1892"
01:13:57 <sbp> * B is reminded of the P. Larkin line, "Britain invented sex in 1963"
01:15:36 <sbp> same people:
01:15:36 <sbp> <A> I'm wearing the "Guinness, proud sponsor of casual sex since 1858" shirt today
01:15:36 <sbp> <A> tomorrow it's "Harp's, helping ugly people get laid since 1912"
01:22:54 <sbp> wow, webdesigners are really really terrible
01:29:02 <sbp> * sbp is looking to properly design a site for the first time in years, so is browsing lots of random weblogs, and sites like glish and alistapart and the CSS Zen Garden... and they're just bad
01:29:42 <sbp> hmm: [[[
01:29:42 <sbp> Janie Box
01:29:43 <sbp> Today it's $1.8911. So $6000 is only £3172.76. Average change per day (over 3 days) is $0.0110. Average change of change (over 3 days) is $-0.0019. So, tomorrow it will be $1.9001
01:29:47 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.imperialviolet.org/
01:30:34 <sbp> imperial violet (Adam Langley) is nice because the colour theme makes it consistent, but the font is horrid and having that metadata at the top seems odd the way that it's placed
01:30:51 <sbp> it's only a little better with a smaller font size
01:31:52 <sbp> http://www.bricoleur.org/ (who has a blogroll I should go through after Aaron's, but then they probably all do) is a good example of why you should display your name prominently on your webpage. who's it by? I don't know
01:32:04 <sbp> (macgill apparently)
01:32:55 <sbp> the design is... er... bright. it's a bit too striking and opaque; there's no real crafting, though at least it's all positioned nicely. summary: good layout, but... pastels? please?
01:33:00 <sbp> font sucks again
01:34:02 <sbp> http://abusabletech.org/ standard MT style. I should comment on the standard MT style, though: it's actually quite nice. so it's a shame that everybody used it and now it's "that MT style". I remember that even Aaron was using it for quite a while, so he must've been likewise enamoured with it
01:34:32 <sbp> the font is good, the dropcap is good, the colour is okay but it's the MT colour
01:35:56 <sbp> http://atrios.blogspot.com/ awful. sorry, because I know he's a famous blogger, but there's no consistency, the right hand side of the page flies off of the screen in my 800x600 Firefox/0.8 setup, and the font again is just hideous. three column layout is good when done properly, but this just seems like he's gone for a random pastel colour and then not styled the fonts
01:37:00 <sbp> http://www.pycs.net/bbum/ Bill Bumgarner. not too bad. bright green and black? he must be dreaming of old terminals. boring and solid, but it's very usable which is the main thing, and what atrios is lacking
01:38:24 <sbp> http://www.livejournal.com/community/bar_room_brawl/ uh. okay then. actually the design isn't too bad, I'm just wondering why this is on Aaron's blogroll. in any case, grey is fine, though the UFO posters get in the way. the font is passable, and again it's usable, but it's not a striking design; undistinctive
01:39:30 <sbp> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ben/ first decent design. this looks like it was actually made by someone who cares about design. the font's fine, it's simple, has a consistent style, and is very understated but distinctive. though I wouldn't choose the style for myself, it's the best in Aaron's blogroll so far
01:40:33 <sbp> http://bensw.com/blog/ Ben's Weblog. it's pretty good, actually, though I wonder if it's a standard Movable Type template? consistent colouring, readable. s'fine
01:40:47 <sbp> "test" - http://blanu.net/ Uhm, okay then.
01:41:07 <sbp> http://www.advogato.org/person/Bram/ yep, we reach advogato. horrid. enough said
01:41:18 <sbp> (usable though--still better than atrios)
01:41:42 <sbp> * sbp loads the next set of 10
01:43:27 <sbp> http://www.livejournal.com/users/blanu/ it's another livejournal blog. it appears that livejournal.com control the layout, but you get to choose the colours. blanu's gone for a rather psychadelic feel here, and it's okay, but the layout's still just boring
01:43:52 <sbp> http://inessential.com/ Brent Simmons. he needs to read Strunk & White's first rule again, but apart from that his site is well designed--surprise surprise
01:44:40 <sbp> interlude, from #sbp:
01:44:40 <sbp> [01:38] * Joins: SocialNetworkBot (~piespy@nat-pbi.exigengroup.com)
01:44:40 <sbp> [01:44] <sbp> join #swhack if you actually want a challenge
01:44:40 <sbp> [01:44] <sbp> nothing to see here
01:45:10 <sbp> anyway, I like Brent's--again, simple and understated but fairly distinctive. not as much as ben's one, but still not bad
01:45:20 <sbp> http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/ Connolly, advogato, blah
01:46:18 <sbp> http://weblog.karelia.com/ Dan Wood, Karelia weblog. hmm. it's badly designed since the navbar and the main content overlap on Firefox/0.8, but the design is distinctive if a little inconsistent (perhaps we'll call it "eclectic" to be nice)
01:46:46 <sbp> he's reading "Designing With Web Standards" so perhaps he'll get better soon
01:47:06 <sbp> I like the center aligning of the title and mininavbar stuff
01:47:58 <sbp> http://www.oblomovka.com/ Danny O'Brien. the second top-notch excellent bit of design. distinctive, works well, and though the font seems to be "default", it works well for me
01:48:32 <sbp> it's even fluid, resizes well... very good. I think that's just self-evident
01:49:04 <sbp> http://www.commonhouse.net/blog/oblinks STYLE? I DO NOT NEED STYLE I AM JUST A LIST OF LINKS THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME NOW PLEASE GO AWAY
01:49:40 <sbp> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/dave/ Dave Hyatt. uhm. well it looks like it would've been good, but there are no entries being displayed so I can't really rate it
01:49:57 <sbp> actually, judging by the sidebar it looks very good
01:50:36 <sbp> ah, here we go: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/ woah, sweet fade-in text design at the top!
01:51:25 <sbp> this is very good, but then he does design OS X's browser, so really I think we should dock him five points because he *has* to be good
01:52:19 <sbp> http://www.scripting.com/ hello dave. where did your style go? I suppose you have enough readers that you don't need to be distinctive. shame. your old design was just as mehity. yours, sbp
01:52:49 <sbp> http://radio.weblogs.com/0120695/ the standard radio design. distinctive, but it's the radio design. it just reminds me of cacti
01:53:06 <sbp> * sbp loads another ten...
01:54:51 <sbp> http://www.livejournal.com/users/dmarti/ aha: a distinctive livejournal blog. it's... very solid again. I really don't think that people should be so opaque: it makes the design look too clunky and sharp and obtrusive. the text is the important part--the content, so you need to keep everything else soft and complimentary, not just there because you think it needs to be there
01:55:22 <sbp> why do blocks of text need such heavy borders? what is the *point* of a border? do you really need it, or is it getting in the way? obviously, this hasn't been thought about, as in the majority of these blogs...
01:55:33 <sbp> ...but again I can't criticise too much since it is actually readable
01:55:52 <sbp> the black on dark grey titles are a bit annoying, though
01:56:29 <sbp> http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/ an MT standard design. I don't like this design as much, but I can get along with it. I like the font, but otherwise it's just very boring, and doesn't really have a sense of distinction to it
01:57:41 <sbp> http://scriban.com/movabletype/ blogaritaville. hmm. runs off the edge of my screen, but only a little. it's very clos to being distinctive, and I can tell that they've tried to be consistent with red and black... the google ads get in the way. it's not distinctive enough
01:58:50 <sbp> http://goatee.net/2004/02 JMR's blog, apparently. very distinctive, a little inconsistent, but better than most
02:00:08 <sbp> http://www.markcarey.com/googleguy-says/ eek! take Google's logo, and think "hey, I can make a blog look good suing that sort of feel" and uh, then do it wrongly. at least, that's my impression of what's going on here, but it's hard to tell from the noise of the clashing colours
02:00:23 <sbp> clearly he's thought about design a little since he's stolen the <ul> tab thing from alistapart
02:00:43 <sbp> I guess I have to admit that it is distinctive. it's not bad, it's just... a bit overwhelming
02:01:17 <sbp> http://www.groklaw.net/ very good. based on a design by Bryan Bell, eh? well, I'm loading his site for sure
02:01:53 <sbp> if the introductory text hadn't wrapped oddly, it'd be better. perhaps I can make the font smaller...
02:02:17 <sbp> ah, that works. yes, that's a bad design point which needed to be considered, and ruins it really, since it looks even better when it wraps properly
02:02:38 <sbp> a bit messy thanks to the cluttered sidebar as usual, but it's quite good. I like it
02:03:03 <sbp> http://www.artima.com/weblogs/index.jsp?blogger=guido Guide Van Rossum's blog. I'm too scared to comment on the BDFL's weblog, so I won't
02:04:05 <sbp> http://www.blogforamerica.com/channeldean.html heh. well, it seems alright, though there are no entries that I can tell. it has a "designed by committee" feel to it, which isn't really a bad thing since at least they tend to be well tested
02:05:13 <sbp> http://ln.hixie.ch/ Hickson is, of course, just the master of HTML. his design skills, however, leave a lot more to be desired. astrophy at the bottom right is just a work of genius, and the most distinctive thing that I've come across in any blog... but the rest is rather lacking--it's basically styleless
02:06:04 <sbp> http://www.zeldman.com/ Zeldman. most style folk are blowhards who actually can't take their own advice and design well, but Zeldman is thankfully an exception. this is very good, and his site is always very good, and it's automatically in the well-designed list
02:06:56 <sbp> I don't think I have anything more to say. it's just great. nice colours, consistent, distinctive. very good--and I note the downwards fading background style as used on alistapart (I don't like the alistapart design, btw)
02:07:52 <sbp> http://www.bryanbell.com/ the guest inclusion. as distinctive as I thought it'd be, but actually badly designed: the content flies off to the right again, which means it's not fluid
02:08:08 <sbp> otherwise, though... very good
02:10:14 <sbp> http://www.livejournal.com/users/jillzilla/ jill, jill, jill, jill, jill... standard livejournal design. but hey, she's a busy working woman--we can excuse her for not worrying too much about the design; can't excuse her for not having posted for a couple of years though
02:11:18 <sbp> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/ Spolsky. the image at the top makes it distinctive, but otherwise it's underdesigned. perhaps he likes it that way. the lis tof translations is pretty hillarious
02:11:52 <sbp> there's really nothing to comment on. hello? style? are you there?
02:12:52 <sbp> http://daringfireball.net/ daring fireball! okay, this one is prety exciting: it's got a feel and design all of its own, of course, the logo's distinctive, and apart from the colour and that there's really nothing *obvious* that comprises Gruber's style
02:13:06 <sbp> and yet it's cool. very well done--goes in the top list
02:14:15 <sbp> http://weblog.infoworld.com/udell/ Udell. uhh. software designers must have something against design or something. committeeish, but flies off to the right, and, well. "I am business. you will be assimilated"
02:14:36 <sbp> http://reagle.org/joseph/blog/ oh, *this* is JMR's blog. wow, kickass
02:15:22 <sbp> yep, I like it. it seems that an element of design is a nice distinctive picture or logo to get the customized feel, to distinguish it from all other blogs, and of course JMR's done that here
02:15:48 <sbp> it's also consistent, and though it does fly off to the right hand side of the screen just a *little* bit, I'll excuse him for that and pretend it didn't happen
02:16:13 <sbp> I think I'll include it in the list of very cools... but only just
02:17:50 <sbp> http://www.livejournal.com/users/jwz/ JWZ. okay. well, he's distinctive, but I don't like it. sorry. he does have some hillarious stuff, though
02:18:00 <sbp> http://www.cavebear.com/cbblog/ standard MT, no comment
02:18:16 <sbp> http://radio.weblogs.com/0100676/ standard radio, again no comment. come on people!
02:18:56 <sbp> http://www.pinds.com/ why is the navbar so much larger than the content? because of the huge photo in it, I guess. understated and not distinctive, but the photos are cool
02:20:52 <sbp> loading another 10...
02:22:14 <sbp> http://www.lessig.org/blog/ lessig! I rather like his blog. clever guy, seems to know how to design too. the fact that the content is not in the first screenful is a bad bit of design, but the photo of him and the circled e say "hi, this is lessig's blog--this you must know"
02:22:35 <sbp> I'd say it makes the bottom half of the Good Ones, but that content hiding is annoying
02:22:52 <sbp> http://www.crummy.com/ certainly is
02:23:17 <sbp> http://invisiblog.com/1c801df4aee49232/ again this is what happens when you take a standard style and you tweak it to be as boring as possible. why?!
02:24:51 <sbp> http://markbernstein.org/ phew, thank goodness. getting to Bernstein is my reward for going through all that crap, I think. very, very good. the colours are a bit overwhelming, but they're dusky, not solid, and they're consistent and massively distinctive. very good, top division, can't complain. the bolder "Mark" from the "Bernstein" is wonderful... there's a lot to learn from in here
02:25:22 <sbp> if I had to criticize, I'd say that it's a bit of an information overload... but I guess that's a Welcome to Bernstein thing :-)
02:25:37 <sbp> http://dir.salon.com/topics/mark_fiore/ businessy, blah blah
02:26:35 <sbp> http://www.mnot.net/blog/ ah, Mark Nottingham. I like his fonts, and it's quite understated and not really distinctive... but what lets it down is the h1 styling... what's up with that? apart from that, it's good, hangs off to the right a bit, but it's readable and one of the better ones
02:26:51 <sbp> http://www.mnot.net/photoblog/ mnot's photoblog: the same. interesting photos
02:27:35 <sbp> http://diveintomark.org/ heh, heh. Mark Pilgrim. I've been following his designs for ages--what was up with the random links thing? he's passionate about design and he knows what he's doing and yes, this is good
02:28:05 <sbp> those squares are pretty funky: they get bigger when you enlarge them. some of his other designs were possibly cooler, but I like this one
02:28:22 <sbp> http://diveintomark.org/archives/blinks/ blinks from Pilgrim, same as above
02:28:39 <sbp> http://www.livejournal.com/users/naturalborn/ We Are Livejournal... at least he has the borg photo to indicate it
02:28:55 <sbp> another ten...
02:29:54 <sbp> (why hasn't he got Norm Walsh in his blogroll?)
02:30:17 <sbp> a couple in this batch timed out...
02:31:34 <sbp> http://tenyearsofmylife.com/ hmm, Haughey. good idea. not much to comment on--it is well designed and solid, but it's just a picture really
02:32:37 <sbp> http://mena.typepad.com/dollarshort/ good typography at the top, but then the rest leaves a lot to be desired. it's Mena, so I probably shouldn't be saying bad things, should I? but I expected more from her
02:32:54 <sbp> http://interconnected.org/home/ bing, no style
02:33:07 <sbp> http://blogs.osafoundation.org/mitch/ ugh. standard MT, and the most boring one, too
02:33:31 <sbp> http://www.disobey.com/dnn/ woah. I hadn't realised how distinctive Morbus' blog was until I came across it in the context of all the other shite
02:34:28 <sbp> it's not quite as fluid as it should be, but it works fine on my resolution nontheless... I have to say, and not just because it's Morbus, that this is a very good design. in fact, I'd like nothing more than to rip it to shreds, but it really is good
02:35:35 <sbp> the distinctiveness... well it's clearly Morbus, and I remember him complaining to me about the links looking "odd" when I made my first post... he wanted me to change some words to make it balance right. I did too, and I have done every time I post on it. there's a kind of low-level devotion to feel that could only come from the Morbus sector, I think
02:35:54 <sbp> and it mentions tree files, so it's the winner :-)
02:36:47 <sbp> http://mpt.phrasewise.com/ WHO IS MPT?! "a 25-year-old Forrest Gump lookalike with two university degrees and a fondness for thinking too much" distinctive, and it's just the old alistapart style really, but it doesn't seem to get used all that much these days, and I'm quite fond of it, so it's nice to see it springing up *somewhere*
02:37:14 <sbp> websafe all the way
02:37:32 <enkido> gah
02:37:36 <enkido> no sex tonight :(
02:37:47 <sbp> quite
02:38:17 <sbp> http://www.webweavertech.com/ovidiu/weblog/ Ovidiu... it's clearly Movable Type tweaked a little bit, but not enough. it's not got any distinctive feel to it, though it is better than nothing
02:38:42 <sbp> these Google ads are appaering everywhere--and where they do, they tend to ruin pages' styles
02:39:39 <sbp> http://nelson.monkey.org/~nelson/weblog Nelson Minar... that background reminds me of the one on Bray's site. it's distinctive, but it's not got that edge of "ooh"ness to it that I'm looking for. Just Another Blog
02:40:00 <sbp> another ten... (two more after this)
02:41:45 <sbp> http://www.patandkat.com/pat/weblog/ Pat Berry's blog. light yellow on grey, eh? okay, that's passable. and the "Dean Way" sign? makes it distinctive. yes, it's not bad, folks, but I don't like the font, and again it just reminds me of HTML 3.2 days for some reason
02:42:15 <sbp> http://www.paulgraham.com/ Paul Graham. funky. it's rather unusual, which is what makes it good, but really it's a site not a blog... don't know if I can count it
02:42:44 <sbp> http://www.bugbear.com/ huh? I don't get it
02:42:48 <sbp> nice birdie, though
02:43:02 <sbp> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/ Greenspun. hehe
02:44:00 <sbp> I like coming to the big names. this one isn't so bad, but it really seems to underline the "this is a blog" feel that I get from a lot of people. it seems that when people start up a weblog, they look at other weblogs and think "oh, posts, titles, trackback, title, tagline... yeah, yeah, I get it". no invention
02:44:15 <sbp> but at least it's consistent. very consistent
02:44:19 <sbp> and not cluttered, either
02:45:18 <sbp> http://www.raelity.org/ Rael. yeah, it's good. very close to A-grade, actually, but it's a bit *too* understated for that. it's trying to pull the same trick as blazing fireball, but kind the opposite... light yellow eggshelly and daisies. hmm
02:45:28 <sbp> http://www.advogato.org/person/raph/ advogato again? sigh
02:45:34 <sbp> http://www.advogato.org/person/rillian/ bleh
02:45:41 <sbp> http://dir.salon.com/topics/ruben_bolling/ salon...
02:51:49 <sbp> fuck, the power went out for half a second. rebooted the box
02:51:51 <sbp> at least this was all instalogged!
02:52:20 <sbp> where was I? oh, right
02:52:36 <sbp> http://erys.org/blog/ McCusker. I don't think I can forgive him for not doing his sentence-per-line thing anymore!
02:53:12 <sbp> it's pretty distinctive actually, and it has the promise of being able to deliver a lot more... you can kinda tell what he's working towards, but he doesn't quite do it
02:53:21 <sbp> it flies off of the right again
02:53:45 <sbp> http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/ Sam Ruby. apart from the fact that it's really harsh, it is very well designed, distinctive, etc.
02:54:23 <sbp> in fact, I like it a lot. smooth corners and simplicity make a good blog, and I like the layout: everything's to hadn without being cluttered. top grade
02:55:26 <sbp> http://www.satn.org/ Bricklin et al. distinctive, but again it bores me, offers no real features of interest. fine, but not good, and certainly not brilliant
02:55:50 <sbp> http://miscoranda.com/ Sean B. Palmer's weblog. I... oh, that's me. do I have to review my own? :-)
02:56:52 <sbp> I think it's pretty distinctive, it's as pastelly as it can be, and it works on my browser of course. if I had to criticize, I'd say it looks a bit toyish: it's not very solid. but it's not bad, I think, and I'd maybe even put myself on the bottom level of the top-graders
02:57:08 <sbp> http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/latest.html Seth Styles Not
02:57:15 <sbp> http://www.advogato.org/person/simonstl/ advogato...
02:58:07 <sbp> http://www.sixapart.com/log/ Sixlog... very good. distinctive logo, businessy but that's appropriate, easy to use, the font's okay, it's got the pictures of Mena and Ben making it distinctive (though I've always found those pictures a little... odd), so it's good
02:59:19 <sbp> http://stevenf.com/mt/ Rather good, actually. Steven Frank, eh? never heard of him before. it even seems to be powered by MT, so he's done a grand job in making it distinctive... and it's clear and consistent. yeah, good work
02:59:41 <sbp> the "~stevenf" unixy idea is good too
03:00:22 <sbp> http://notabug.com/swhack/ ew. I actually really don't like swhackit's design. we ought to fix that, I think, but it's very Aaronesque, I suppose. I liked d8uv's style more
03:01:02 <sbp> http://tantek.com/log/2004/02.html tantek's fine, I suppose, and I guess I want more from him, but it's alright
03:01:30 <sbp> hmm. it's consistent
03:01:57 <sbp> so I can't say what I don't like about it. it reminds me a bit of hixie's problem: it's just a bit scant, not as inspired as it could be
03:01:59 <sbp> and should be
03:02:46 <sbp> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/ Tim Bray, ongoing. oh, he changed the background? I like the new one more, so that's okay. again, spolied by the Google adverts--couldn't he have chosen better colors?
03:03:15 <sbp> otherwise, I like it. having a very thin column for the content is a bad idea, but apart from that, I've folled him designing it, I know he's put a lot of effort into it, and it certainly shows
03:03:37 <sbp> ...serif's better too, if only it weren't so big :-)
03:04:04 <sbp> http://www.thismodernworld.com/ wow. heh, that's... it makes me sing "This Is The Modern World" by the Jam
03:04:23 <sbp> very good, and he's clearly an artist
03:04:40 <sbp> hahaha. the dog blinks!
03:04:44 <sbp> that is so cool
03:04:49 <sbp> yep, top-grade
03:05:01 <sbp> only six more!
03:05:15 <sbp> http://dir.salon.com/topics/tom_tomorrow/ Tom Tomorrow's cartoons, hosted as salon
03:05:29 <sbp> er, at. anyway, he must be pissed about the salon style. oh well
03:05:46 <sbp> http://www.crummy.com/ crummy again? Aaron, you need to sort out your blogroll
03:06:32 <sbp> http://volokh.com/ Volokh. his book's good, apparently. it's kinda fun and boring at the same time. I'd like to know how he achieves that
03:06:58 <sbp> http://blogs.salon.com/0002874/ World O' Crap. heh: "A daily diatribe about current events, bad movies, pop culture, Ann Coulter, etc."
03:07:06 <sbp> but it's radio, so whatever
03:07:41 <sbp> http://cheerleader.yoz.com/ such a cool name. " The Accumulating Evidence of Yoz Grahame's Infuriating Inability to Prioritise" and given how massively difficult it is to integrate such a long and uncatchy title into a weblog, he's done a very good job
03:07:59 <sbp> has a feeling of solidity and careful design... bottom half of the top graders, I think
03:08:10 <sbp> and so we come to...
03:08:12 <sbp> http://www.zooko.com/log Zooko!
03:08:27 <sbp> who basically doesn't style his blog, never has, and probably never will, so nothing much to comment on
03:08:51 <sbp> also, who is "Aaron Schwartz"? :-)
03:09:02 <sbp> in any case, I should rate Aaron's too
03:15:40 <sbp> argh, fecking power! I went and got food in the interim, though
03:15:42 <sbp> twice in one night... bizarre
03:15:58 <sbp> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/ so Aaron's blog has this annoying problem where the sidebar appears underneath the content
03:16:04 <sbp> but only most of the time
03:16:23 <sbp> this is probably his way of telling me that I ought to have a smaller default font size
03:16:38 <sbp> anyway, he manages to be cool and distinctive without really doing much. I'm not sure how
03:17:00 <sbp> probably because he's the only person who knows what he's doing that doesn't do much
03:17:57 <sbp> * sbp eats food
03:18:34 <sbp> anyway, I think I proved my point: blogs are generally very, very poorly designed, in some cases unusable, and even in the best cases not superb
03:19:07 <sbp> even sites like Sam Ruby and Zeldman... they're very good, but I wouldn't choose them for my blog. I guess I would choose them for *their* blogs, though
03:19:51 <sbp> what I learned is that I'm now convinced that the two most important features of a weblog's design are how distinctive it is, and how consistent it is
03:20:30 <sbp> I'm also more pleased with my own design when held up to the others than I thought I'd be
03:22:01 <sbp> * sbp goes back through the critiques and summarizes the best ones
03:27:11 <sbp> hmm. there's actually quite a few
03:27:25 <sbp> 15 that I think people can learn from:
03:27:40 <sbp> [[[
03:27:45 <sbp> http://www.oblomovka.com/
03:27:45 <sbp> http://daringfireball.net/
03:27:45 <sbp> http://markbernstein.org/
03:27:45 <sbp> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ben/
03:27:45 <sbp> http://www.zeldman.com/
03:27:45 <sbp> http://www.groklaw.net/
03:27:48 <sbp> http://www.disobey.com/dnn/
03:27:49 <sbp> http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/
03:27:51 <sbp> http://www.sixapart.com/log/
03:27:53 <sbp> http://www.thismodernworld.com/
03:27:56 <sbp> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/
03:27:57 <sbp> http://inessential.com/
03:27:59 <sbp> http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/
03:28:01 <sbp> http://www.bryanbell.com/
03:28:03 <sbp> http://diveintomark.org/
03:28:05 <sbp> ]]]
03:28:07 <sbp> (random order)
03:29:11 <sbp> I'd give http://www.oblomovka.com/ & http://daringfireball.net/ & http://markbernstein.org/ my top three votes
03:31:55 <sbp> (...odd: they're also the top three in the randomly ordered list: and in order, too!)
03:32:09 <sbp> (I literally cut and pasted randomly)
03:35:35 <sbp> * sbp finds some blog design awards...
03:35:45 <sbp> one find: http://www.thebigsmoker.co.uk/
03:36:13 <sbp> I agree that it's well designed, but it's not as innovatively thought out as Bernstein
03:36:27 <sbp> this is brilliant, though: http://neuromantics.net/bunker/
03:36:37 <sbp> (and the one that TBS beat, oddly enough)
03:37:43 <sbp> woah: http://www.jennworks.com/
03:38:01 <sbp> shame that one of the images at the top is out of place
03:39:12 <sbp> not bad: http://feministe.us/blog/
03:39:15 <sbp> good top entry, too
03:40:33 <sbp> inspired by bookofstyles.org, eh? no response from it, though
03:41:10 <sbp> actually, I think I've seen it before though
03:41:44 <sbp> ooh: http://www.wannabegirl.org/
03:41:49 <sbp> I've seen that one before; I rather like it
03:42:14 <sbp> definitely one of the best
03:43:22 <sbp> and, liked to from there, this pretty well designed blog: http://www.forestpirate.net/
03:45:54 <sbp> hmm. each of the best ones have picked a solid background colour and used it everywhere...
03:46:12 <sbp> dark on light vs. light on dark doesn't seem to be an issue
03:47:22 <Ash> hi
03:47:24 <Ash> death
03:48:38 <sbp> hi there Ash
03:48:46 <sbp> how are you this probably sunny day in some parts of the world?
03:49:11 <Ash> oh doing fine
03:49:22 <sbp> that's good
03:49:26 <sbp> my power keeps cutting out
03:49:29 <sbp> it's very irritating
03:49:32 <Ash> harhar
03:49:56 <sbp> it's like: "[typetypetypetypetypetyp... screen goes black]"
03:50:17 <sbp> (and the lights go off too, for dramatic effect)
03:50:26 <Ash> sweet
03:50:51 <sbp> but the light's not so bad since the fillament seems to stay lit for a while
03:50:59 <sbp> they're only like 0.5 second losses
03:51:51 <sbp> oh well. everything is peachy clean
03:52:43 <Ash> heheh
03:52:59 <Ash> that's why i have giant UPSes at work
03:53:06 <Ash> everyone else goes out and I don't
03:53:07 <Ash> h0h0h0
03:53:08 <sbp> yeah
03:53:19 <Ash> i hear this giant groan
03:53:22 <sbp> hehe
03:53:27 <Ash> from across the office
03:53:32 <Ash> and i'm crusing along
03:53:40 <sbp> and you think "oh man, they're all fucking again"
03:53:42 <Ash> my entire office is hooked up to a ups
03:53:54 <Ash> so my lava lamp stays on
03:53:56 <Ash> monitors
03:53:57 <Ash> speakers
03:54:03 <Ash> other desk lamp
03:54:04 <Ash> heheheh
03:54:08 <sbp> man. if the lava lamp went out, that'd be a disaster
03:57:25 <sbp> it would!
04:01:52 <Ash> well
04:01:58 <Ash> i just have all my power strips hooked to one UPS
04:02:24 <Ash> so it all says up
04:02:24 <Ash> heheh
04:03:14 <sbp> Unstoppable Power Supply?
04:04:31 <Ash> sure
04:05:17 <Ash> well the new one will be unstoppable
04:05:27 <Ash> 20kW UPS
04:05:36 <Ash> huge rack thing
04:12:23 <sbp> correction on Tantek: after talking with him, he pointed me to http://www.tantek.com/log/2004/01.html#d27t0120 cool idea
04:50:29 <jillzilla> sbp> http://www.livejournal.com/users/jillzilla/ jill, jill, jill, jill, jill... standard livejournal design. but hey, she's a busy working woman--we can excuse her for not worrying too much about the design; can't excuse her for not having posted for a couple of years though
04:50:39 <jillzilla> I maintain three, count them, three work blogs.
04:50:55 <jillzilla> Also, my visual design skills are utterly lacking. I am totally disabled that way.
04:51:17 <jillzilla> Most importantly, nothing has happened to me recently to put on my livejournal.
04:51:31 <sbp> three work blogs: ouch!
04:51:37 <jillzilla> heh.
04:51:39 <jillzilla> yep!
04:51:53 <sbp> really, nothing? I very much doubt that: you seem to do a lot of reading, go out to a lot of events, speak to lots of interesting people...
04:53:43 <jillzilla> hmm. true.
04:53:52 <jillzilla> I think I should keep my eyes open for things to write about more.
04:54:05 <jillzilla> I don't go to a lot of events, btw.
04:54:09 <jillzilla> But I do dance.
04:54:45 <jillzilla> Hmm. Google hiring in Zurich.
04:58:55 <sbp> well, I still think that you probably have a multiplicity of things to write about, but lots of people don't consider the usual things that they do intersting
04:59:01 <jillzilla> true
04:59:10 <sbp> from my point of view, being in Mountain View etc., I think of it as terribly exciting...
04:59:11 <jillzilla> let's see...what do I do?
04:59:15 <jillzilla> ooh!
04:59:21 <jillzilla> I could write about bicycling in mountain view
04:59:28 <sbp> see? there you go
04:59:30 <jillzilla> except that I mostly do the same ride lately
04:59:41 <sbp> yes, but *we* have never done that ride
05:00:21 <sbp> I don't even know what Mountain View looks like, its population, its culture... let alone what it's like to cycle through
05:00:27 <jillzilla> hmmmmmmmmm
05:00:38 <jillzilla> I've written a bit about the weird tree behavior.
05:00:43 <sbp> hehe
05:00:59 <sbp> * sbp goes back and reads... didn't have a change on his whirlwind criticism
05:03:03 <sbp> heh, heh: [[[
05:03:03 <sbp> Barista: And do you want whipped cream with that?
05:03:04 <sbp> Customer: No.
05:03:04 <sbp> Barista: Good! It's disgusting!
05:03:04 <sbp> ]]]
05:03:07 <sbp> these are great posts
05:03:11 <jillzilla> * jillzilla beams
05:03:33 <jillzilla> I should write more about what happens at my Chinese lessons. In fact, I should try waking up for my Chinese lessons.
05:03:42 <jillzilla> They're absurdly early in the morning. 9:30am.
05:03:54 <sbp> oh, that's another point: seems like you've been doing that for longer than I thought
05:04:00 <sbp> hmm
05:05:00 <jillzilla> Oh, I'd forgotten all about this:
05:05:07 <jillzilla> "I dunno," said Ken, "If I were struck rich, I'd be Eurotrash
05:05:07 <jillzilla> so fast you wouldn't believe it."
05:05:23 <sbp> yeah, I liked that one a lot too
05:05:31 <sbp> but it reminded me of a Simpsons quote, so perhaps that's why
05:05:36 <jillzilla> heh
05:05:47 <jillzilla> Oh, and did you notice me using the word "tidbit"?
05:05:52 <sbp> of course, everything reminds me of a Simpsons quote, so technically if what I just said were true, I'd find everything funny
05:05:56 <sbp> nope!
05:06:03 <sbp> is tidbit unusual in America?
05:06:16 <jillzilla> not at all
05:06:19 <jillzilla> it's normal
05:06:26 <jillzilla> titbit is unheard of
05:08:06 <sbp> I see
05:08:12 <sbp> then kudos indeed!
05:08:20 <jillzilla> * jillzilla laughs
05:08:27 <jillzilla> hey, I was just invited to play Robo Rally!
05:09:45 <jillzilla> Maybe I should write about playing DDR
05:10:16 <jillzilla> okay, I'm going to go play RoboRally!
05:10:19 <jillzilla> * jillzilla waves
05:10:51 <sbp> okay! sorry
05:11:01 <sbp> enjoy
05:11:11 <sbp> * sbp is trying to help someone debug their website
06:22:53 <d8uv> Hello.
06:23:02 <sbp> hi there
06:23:10 <sbp> you missed The Big Critiqué
06:25:21 <d8uv> Yeah I did.
06:25:32 <d8uv> I would guess you hate my design.
06:26:05 <sbp> not as such. I do prefer the arctic one, though
06:27:21 <sbp> trouble is, compare it to this: http://www.alexking.org/
06:27:37 <sbp> or this: http://taracleveland.com/
06:28:19 <sbp> d8uv.com is at least as good, and probably better, than miscoranda though
06:28:40 <d8uv> Yeah
06:30:05 <sbp> not bad, but again with those doesn't-fit Google ads: http://leavesrustle.com/
06:30:14 <sbp> aren't people allowed to change the *link* colours?
06:31:03 <d8uv> Heh
06:31:26 <d8uv> My problem is that I have no sense of style that I can put on the web.
06:31:54 <sbp> mine is that I have a sense of style that I can't put on the web
06:32:04 <sbp> let's swap
06:32:09 <d8uv> Ok!
06:34:08 <datum> *** datum has quit (Remote closed the connection)
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06:56:49 <thelsdj> *** thelsdj (adam@24-116-68-168.cpe.cableone.net) has joined #swhack
06:57:50 <thelsdj> oh my god i'm so pissed, lost my best uptime ever today :(
06:58:37 <sbp> aw. what happened?
06:58:50 <thelsdj> lost power for like 3 hours
06:58:58 <thelsdj> ups only worked for like 5 minutes hehe
06:59:12 <thelsdj> was around 150 days uptime i think on my desktop
06:59:35 <sbp> odd. I had two cuts today, too, and Ash told me about how he loves his UPS
06:59:46 <thelsdj> weird
07:06:02 <sbp> right screw this, I'm using a table
07:06:06 <sbp> a LAYOUT table
07:06:11 <sbp> even though all tables are layout tables
07:06:54 <d8uv> What's up, sbp?
07:07:09 <sbp> everything sucks. that's what's up :-)
07:07:23 <sbp> it's that aligning two bits of text on the same level problem
07:07:31 <sbp> float:right and a width just doesn't line up right
07:07:38 <sbp> and then you fudge it with margins and... ugh
07:07:40 <d8uv> Ooh. Yes.
07:07:54 <d8uv> I just use absolute positioning with ems.
07:07:59 <d8uv> It works for ME
07:08:09 <sbp> hmm
07:08:38 <sbp> I might give that a go
07:09:33 <sbp> heh, I haven't used a layout table in *years*
07:15:50 <sbp> it works eerily well
07:16:09 <sbp> I must be getting lazy
07:50:25 <sbp> hahaha: "Google a recherché what the... sur le Web. 1 - 10 résultats, sur un total d'environ 22,600,000. Recherche effectuée en 0.10 secondes."
07:50:34 <sbp> I'd set my accept language to "fr" and forgot all about it
08:00:07 <d8uv> The new google layout is kinda lame.
08:01:36 <deltab> what's changed? I don't see any difference
08:01:48 <deltab> except in the image search previews, a few days ago
08:02:10 <sbp> me neither. unless you're talking about that which was featured on /.
08:02:15 <sbp> or whereever it was
08:02:49 <deltab> what was that?
08:03:16 <sbp> hmm. perhaps it was somewhere else
08:03:23 <sbp> but someone noticed a very brief change in the layout
08:03:27 <sbp> and screenshotted it
08:04:21 <d8uv> It seems to be more or less perma-changed here.
08:04:47 <sbp> screenshot?
08:05:44 <d8uv> Me screenshot?
08:05:58 <d8uv> Ok, but it's basically the same as all the others.
08:06:05 <d8uv> Minus the gradient.
08:06:22 <sbp> thanks
08:18:03 <sbp> d8uv?
08:18:18 <d8uv> I'm doing 5 shots.
08:18:24 <d8uv> A series.
08:19:54 <sbp> ooh, cool
08:20:24 <deltab> http://www.minty.org/google/ - like that?
08:24:15 <d8uv> Yeah, excepts sands gradients
08:24:22 <d8uv> Sans.
08:26:05 <sbp> ah, thanks deltab
08:26:30 <sbp> gradients?
08:28:43 <d8uv> Done.
08:28:45 <d8uv> data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAgIAAAXYCAIAAABEJTNcAAAgAElEQVR42uydeUAU5fvAn5lddmcv9uDYXZD7VG7xJhFvNEsy88qyLDUrMy0zM9u29Ov1A1IqtcPUNLXU0NJQ0QBFxQsBEUFOOXa5l2t39pr5%2FbGwHOJR2en7%2BWMYZt73eZ%2F3mdn3ed933mcGA4Ab1y8DAoFAIP6LGI0GAMrGhrjzlE7XEj5wJAYANE0jSyEQCMR%2FElLXAgDlGl6bltIbaaOJNprBYKSD3BmUQeXi7MpENkIgEIj%2FPG06isHAGWYw4zRGYUwGRRopbZsJAHBkHQQCgfjPo9PTBiOUlJbt3rvXYKIpGsMAdHoKuQEEAoF4JDAY6eLS29%2Fu24vhcOjHvWagKRrMFCA3gEAgEI8ERjOknj07a%2FqsZ6b
08:28:45 <d8uv> NpDG4XXmbojHLKeQGEOSMULt0NVzZvsQ1dK4aIGHh2BWJeZ3nNZk%2BES%2FeR4amdY1S82col51U%2FeYrlUrl7Y%2FiGx%2BaUE3rYP9CzZ%2BpNgLxT0NvhGlTZ8qdXcwAk6fOdJC7UB2LgxgA8OGHHyIb9YCigTTQJjPgOOAY9vcqY6JNN1vyi7QlOdU5zfXNThL5QxXPVGUlq1zGlSddCPGhGX6jz%2BxcO%2FWNj4yXExN27geXUHeuJuG7FEdt7vVGSaC39C6uxHAmgxKRhl8vay4W0tXXNGmFdJg%2FOyWxduf%2BZnDhuOMG5fpajdok9OaUJNdv3dPiN4RvU6tdE1dXrIEwf%2Fbdqr59Z9uaOKeoKKG4ycjugyXtb7jZwDDcbLJIKEluZnuzC5Ka2X2wtAOa3QebXEIF3Mb7iSUNZYXGVpZNgDN9JoOKHIInrKkp
08:28:46 <d8uv> IRl2Wm0Nm6hIqW%2B152ZfbBaxzOvvJydhl6bkbNNFlSlzvyZTA2H%2BbFV2U9zWRlLC9haaE3Y15B7RekSxv1NWHyk2RYVx0C8L8Tc0ICYDAKgbwGimzWazyUiZTBRtNrs5MHS65i8%2F34xWCnVDpzf9mqXbd%2BxGSaWGhRvqWxkUzvVydRgaJBoRZj%2FAh8XA%2F3KXQNO%2FVCWVtlUlVh1KPfDrr%2FOSDXo9i81%2BiCWMGT9g89VcjNf2wVP9NmWdLzSHhxNXhryXeOH02sdHPx96VAnltSPmbV3gGxVScK0vcVc5OcdrHN7wrN1QiL%2Fj3fZVpTqGYwRCsRh7Xdl4ia%2Bdv9Ltq%2Bdvug2xOZSDf7xYsGxjbWiDdtpat%2BokjQZA1KtEtbaOyQGAxO2qrHJ8fih%2B%2FCy1JZ5atYL6WMFbpqwPJbW20bY5x
08:28:51 <d8uv> 5tsh%2BCbD5E%2F73J4f42qb6vhPmIBOHIBVdWkIgUAsH1j9aTlLhkby4on2Z5L0bqVaowCXk1mW%2BWP95NDGjZ%2FWH%2BpoE%2BUc%2BmPlb5vBhWMivZ%2BaaFq9ynvBUMK%2FJJcNy%2BrP1Pvf2hJQf0E15GF6iXbbeLn8gEg7fPSszin4Brs2CpFPzrEX0Bds04itGnRmkxmmgnAxjAMg%2BpGppecAADkBqyNLWQUkO9%2Bet2ZWz1tOM9%2BNM8G55IGc0Wd4dTV3E928eP3ioNcTWvnu4UHuf6lmmHYRGl0UsWJ%2FOICqDYbakjKh3q4JXiEjGxIPOjC6Sfz6t%2F05Y8SvwhQlZc35K9f%2F0XkuLE6EsDFVU6InP3aGjQAsntIYvt64LUEx9cDr9UCSVJZqZpzWTQApwoDMQFBXhzQmJIvNDG17L4h%2FGejhQ
08:28:56 <d8uv> nrVdklBr9okahX7yJiQVMjgChmrpynLFeTvD4yNmhMlCcbRCx7vK1r2lAvAggWh296dqX8PmIBAGDGDLsdu6oBBOUawxfrVQSwBnoI2IcqSX8RI6Walts9u5Z1fzkuTBGB8yRMMdHuGFq5hJxgOjuYqjQA%2FiwZwC2VoeBQvVbOHjy4fQ42cpb9smfqhnG1mRppmAj9%2BBB%2FOna2
08:28:59 <d8uv> Whoops. I shouldn't have done that.
08:29:06 <sbp> chuckle
08:29:59 <d8uv> I could DCC you the png if you want.
08:30:03 <sbp> you missed quite a bit of it too
08:30:10 <sbp> DCC doesn't work
08:32:30 <d8uv> Uploading...
08:33:28 <d8uv> http://d8uv.com/images/newgoogle.png
08:36:01 <sbp> many thanks. doesn't look *too* bad to me
08:36:10 <sbp> though I sorta wonder what advantages it's meant to have
08:38:03 <xover> sbp: You liked DaringFireball.net?
08:45:42 <sbp> yep
08:46:03 <sbp> it's odd because there's hardly any design to it
08:46:15 <sbp> a logo, dark grey... that's it
08:46:32 <sbp> yet it's really distinctive, and consistent, and those are my two main criteria for greatness
08:46:41 <xover> Cool. John used to work tech support over at Bare Bones Software (makers of BBEdit), and is a frequent user of the Validator.
08:47:04 <sbp> heh, neat
08:47:21 <sbp> I've heard good things about him from Aaron
08:47:53 <xover> Yeah, he's a sensible guy. The stuff on Daring Fireball doesn't always reflect it, but...
08:48:08 <sbp> ..the style does, at least
08:48:10 <sbp> :-)
08:48:19 <sbp> add another leading full stop for full effect
08:48:26 <xover> :-)
08:48:28 <sbp> just add full stop!
08:48:56 <sbp> I should email each and every person on the blogroll saying "hey, here's what I thought"
08:49:06 <sbp> but after what happened with Tantek, I don't think I'll bother
08:49:12 <sbp> so embarrassing
08:49:32 <xover> No. You should either write it all up as an article; or chump each URL and add the comments you had.
08:49:39 <sbp> hehheh
08:49:43 <sbp> well, it's all in the logs
08:49:47 <sbp> and I wrote it up on miscy
08:49:49 <xover> What happened with Tantek?
08:50:05 <sbp> well... it turns out that Tantek is redesigning the top 100 sites in CSS
08:50:15 <sbp> so his design is just Wil Wheaton's design, in CSS
08:50:24 <sbp> at the moment. and he's changing it of course
08:51:02 <xover> Poor misunderstood Tantek. :-)
08:51:06 <sbp> yeah
08:51:33 <sbp> he was all "WTF D00D UZ CRAZY" and I'm like "I didn't know that you talked that way, Tantek"
08:51:53 <xover> Well, even if he has an excuse, that doesn't change the fact that that's the design that his weblog currently has, now does it? :-)
08:52:32 <sbp> no, true. why anyone would subject their personal weblog to Wil Wheaton's design apart from Wil Wheaton, I've no idea
08:52:43 <xover> Exactly. :-)
08:53:02 <xover> splodge, are you logging?
08:53:09 <splodge> I'm logging. I found 2 answers for 'are you logging'
08:53:10 <splodge> 0) 2004-02-14 08:53:02 <xover> splodge, are you logging?
08:53:12 <splodge> 1) 2004-02-11 02:14:07 <Ash> are you logging or what, splodge
08:53:29 <xover> Random string == grep?
08:54:26 <sbp> hmm. shouldn't be... that's rather strange
08:54:33 <sbp> splodge, this is a random string you know?
08:54:35 <splodge> I'm logging. I found 1 answer for 'this is a random string you know'
08:54:36 <splodge> 0) 2004-02-14 08:54:33 <sbp> splodge, this is a random string you know?
08:54:40 <sbp> oh, I'll bet it's the question mark
08:54:44 <xover> In any case splodge, make sure you pay attention and get this down:
08:55:09 <xover> Zeldman's Designs Suck (Dead Dogs Through A Garden Hose)!
08:55:15 <xover> :-)
08:55:42 <xover> * xover has been wanting to say that "on the record" for a looong time now… :-)
08:56:34 <xover> Ever since the colour scheme _literally_ gave me a headache, in fact.
08:57:26 <sbp> wow, really?
08:57:30 <sbp> * sbp relooks
08:58:09 <xover> The current version is bearable; but it used to be like peach text on orange background or something.
08:58:13 <sbp> well I know design's subjective, but I really don't think it actually *sucks*... hmm. it's passed the consistency test... the font could be better, but it's not bad...
08:58:19 <sbp> oh. yeah, that was a bit crappy
08:58:54 <xover> And semi-microfonts...
09:00:42 <sbp> which he sets using px
09:00:47 <sbp> EVIL
09:00:49 <sbp> EEEEEEEEEVIL
09:00:52 <sbp> &c.
09:00:55 <xover> Yup.
09:01:29 <sbp> so what're your favourite weblogs, designwise?
09:02:22 <xover> I'm not all that much of a Blog… — What's the phrase? «Consumer»? …I don't follow Blogs that much.
09:03:17 <xover> Daringfireball has some nice features, design-wise, but a bit too many annoyances to be really an example of «My Favourite…» etc.
09:03:34 <xover> Google Ads chief among them, BTW.
09:04:23 <xover> I rather liked noæts in many ways.
09:04:51 <sbp> I don't follow them at all, really, except for like Aaron and Libby
09:05:00 <sbp> and then only because they know where I live
09:05:07 <xover> :-)
09:05:28 <xover> I'm subscribed to aaronsw.com's feed, but I don't usually bother reading.
09:05:29 <sbp> daringfireball has annoyances? oh, well, Google ads are a certainty... sigh. they're pervading good designs and ruining them lately
09:05:42 <sbp> oh, nobody reads it, but you have to be subscribed
09:06:42 <xover> Libby's I don't know the location of, and Jill apparently only has work blog(s).
09:07:23 <xover> Yours is spread over about a dozen sites; and frankly, you're interesting but not /that/ interesting. :-)
09:07:54 <xover> (IOW, «Dude! Consolidate, man. Consolidate!») :-)
09:07:54 <sbp> hehheh
09:08:00 <sbp> yeah yeah
09:08:13 <sbp> libby's is planb.anicecupoftea.net from memory
09:08:22 <sbp> crap, wrong
09:08:22 <sbp> http://planb.nicecupoftea.org/
09:08:31 <sbp> too many top level domains
09:08:40 <xover> Actually, there is finally a good use for a «Blogroll» type thingy.
09:08:50 <sbp> [[[
09:08:50 <sbp> Dear Mr. President, there are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate
09:08:50 <sbp> three. I am not a crackpot. -Grandpa Simpson
09:08:51 <sbp> ]]]
09:09:01 <sbp> oh? what's that?
09:09:19 <xover> Keep track of the #swhack blogs.
09:10:17 <xover> I have one of yours and one of Aaron's, but the rest would take too much effort to find.
09:11:07 <sbp> hehheh
09:11:18 <sbp> the others are pretty non existent, except for Morbus'
09:11:23 <sbp> http://www.disobey.com/dnn/
09:11:27 <sbp> which is actually worth following
09:11:32 <sbp> but I'm with you. blogs? brr
09:12:05 <xover> Actually, you want my favourite weblog? I think it might be Eric Meyer's.
09:12:18 <sbp> Mr. Style, eh?
09:12:22 <sbp> but in design, or in content?
09:12:25 <sbp> .google "Eric Meyer"
09:12:25 <datum> "Eric Meyer": http://www.meyerweb.com/
09:12:48 <xover> Well, the content is only of passing interest to me; it's quite personal and I don't know Eric personally.
09:13:42 <xover> But it's more of a "diary", and integrated into his web site; _and_ the web site is in the good old (deliberate phrasing) style of a "home page".
09:14:05 <xover> Hmmm. Meyerweb seems to be down. Pity.
09:14:42 <sbp> yeah
09:14:44 <sbp> and I got kicked off too, sorry
09:14:46 <sbp> * sbp tries the Google cache
09:14:58 <xover> He's also fallen into the trap of offering multiple style choices.
09:15:15 <sbp> yeah. that sucks so much
09:16:32 <xover> Oh, BTW, if Zeldman can clean up apple.com's act I'll forgive him for alistapart and zeldman.com! :-)
09:16:47 <sbp> heh. has he been comissioned to redesign their site, then?
09:17:08 <xover> ISTR he said so in an entry some time last year.
09:17:13 <sbp> hmm
09:17:21 <sbp> perhaps he's already done it and we didnb't notice
09:17:27 <sbp> s/nb/n/
09:18:17 <xover> Browsers need to detect the presence of a RSS Feed and offer to launch an appropriate helper app!
09:18:32 <xover> * xover was looking for the "RSS" link on Libby's blog...
09:18:50 <sbp> "appropriate"? such as...? (with no disrespect to Morbus)
09:19:00 <sbp> yeah, some people seem to hide them
09:19:04 <sbp> ought to tell libby about that
09:19:10 <sbp> I had trouble finding Aaron's the other day
09:19:12 <xover> Whatever the user has set as his preferred News Aggregator.
09:19:32 <xover> Oh ye gods; the Apple/Pepsi home page is just disghusting!
09:19:45 <sbp> Pepsi comes in Apple flavour now?
09:20:17 <sbp> * sbp picks up Eric Meyer from http://web.archive.org/web/20030609135302/http://www.meyerweb.com/
09:20:25 <xover> Yeah. They're doing a promo; 100 Million free songs from the iTunes Music Store given away in Pepsi bottles.
09:21:00 <sbp> yeah, I see it. ugh
09:21:49 <sbp> "YOU WILL DRINK PEPSI" "er, I just want an iMa-----" "NO YOU WILL DRINK PEPSI"
09:21:59 <xover> Oh, BTW, that Google doesn't let you fuck with link colors is good. Right now you shouldn't mess with link colors for reasons of usability.
09:22:39 <xover> Thet they won't let you do other stuff with their ads is a much bigger problem.
09:23:25 <sbp> I always used to think that too, but then I considered that I've never had a single problem following a link on the Web since I tend to use underline or bold or whatever as the indicator now. enough sites use funky link schemes that it's easy now for a user to become accustomed to arbitrary new ones
09:23:45 <sbp> well, you can change the border colour... that's a start... but yeah
09:24:01 <xover> Nope. Your idea of "a user" is skewed!
09:24:14 <sbp> not at all! it's me!
09:24:28 <xover> I'm getting a lot of first hand experience of this, since my SO started using a computer.
09:24:31 <sbp> If I can do it, Anyone Can [TM]
09:24:58 <deltab> so says an author of a tiny wiki
09:25:12 <sbp> someone else mady a tiny wiki
09:25:15 <sbp> er, made
09:25:25 <sbp> *plenty* of people can type better than me
09:25:36 <sbp> I can walk anytime around the block
09:25:48 <xover> «100 Monkeys at 100 Keyboards…» :-)
09:25:49 <sbp> xover: pray, continue. what've you learned?
09:26:09 <xover> That Consistency Is King!
09:26:11 <sbp> we're all just overgrown slightly-evolved monkies anyway if Darwin's right
09:26:18 <sbp> except for Elizabeth Taylor
09:26:51 <sbp> * sbp guesses xover's talking about a different kind of consistency
09:27:02 <xover> For a link to be a link it actually _has_ to be blue and underlined.
09:27:05 <sbp> hmm. so how does she cope with the fact that so many sites use odd links?
09:27:12 <xover> She doesn't.
09:27:35 <xover> Or to take another example...
09:27:39 <sbp> I have a feeling that she'll have to climb that learning curve if she wants to use it regularly; and will do
09:28:03 <xover> You recall the Mac OS X inspired "Aqua" buttons that cropped up everywhere for a bit?
09:28:37 <sbp> red orange and green? yeah
09:28:43 <sbp> they bugged the crap out of me
09:28:58 <xover> No, the aqua-blue candy-shaped ones.
09:29:01 <sbp> Solaris's X does too--I can never get the right button
09:29:07 <sbp> oh. kinda
09:29:26 <sbp> I've only really seen them on QuickTime
09:29:53 <xover> In any case... In latest Mac OS X Apple has somewhat departed from those.
09:30:19 <xover> Especially in Safari for the navigation buttons.
09:30:26 <xover> As has Microsoft in the Toolbars in Word.
09:30:38 <xover> Now those no longer look like buttons, as such.
09:30:47 <sbp> and this was confusing to someone? how big was the change?
09:30:51 <sbp> hmm
09:30:53 <xover> There's a flat grey area, with a little picture on it.
09:31:17 <xover> My SO can't figure out that these are "buttons", verbs, and that they do something when pressed.
09:31:18 <deltab> where previously there would be something sticking out with text on it
09:31:23 <sbp> consistency vs. progress--smackdown!
09:31:28 <xover> deltab: Right.
09:31:55 <xover> For 15 years, a GUI button on Mac OS mimiced the appearance of a physical button.
09:32:12 <xover> It _looked_like_ it could be manipulated, pressed.
09:32:27 <xover> It was intuitively obvious what it was and how it worked.
09:32:33 <sbp> * sbp nods
09:33:13 <deltab> heh, I think my tv just crashed
09:33:18 <xover> :-)
09:33:26 <sbp> crashed?
09:33:34 <deltab> black bar across the top, with static below
09:33:43 <sbp> hmm
09:33:43 <deltab> all channels
09:33:46 <sbp> whack it
09:33:53 <deltab> I turned it off and on again
09:33:58 <sbp> it's probably just the vertical hold
09:34:11 <sbp> BAMBAMBAM that'll bring it back
09:34:16 <xover> «This is how we fix problem on _Russian_ Space Station!»
09:34:19 <sbp> haha
09:35:06 <xover> Hey, what's that Twilight Zone tagline? «We control the Vertical…» etc.
09:35:27 <sbp> haven't seen it in years
09:35:34 <xover> * xover neither…
09:36:07 <sbp> one day we'll be able to choose our programmes from the central government Swartzlibrary
09:36:16 <xover> Ok, wish me luck everyone!
09:36:20 <sbp> work?
09:36:22 <sbp> luck, dude
09:36:26 <deltab> xover: that was The Outer Limits
09:36:35 <xover> * xover is going to boot his devel box into linux 2.6 for the first time… :-)
09:36:41 <sbp> ooh
09:36:42 <xover> deltab: Ah, thanks.
09:36:46 <sbp> TNK
09:43:13 <d8uv> ARGH
09:43:31 <d8uv> Dear sbp: d8uv.com server sucks.
09:43:33 <sbp> hi d8uv! you sound in fine fettle today
09:43:50 <sbp> pfft. bad loser
09:43:56 <d8uv> Heh
09:44:00 <sbp> Apache Always Wins
09:44:14 <d8uv> You have any suggestions to any wiki software?
09:44:22 <sbp> pwyky, duh
09:44:25 <sbp> :-)
09:44:35 <d8uv> I tried that. Python 2.2.2.
09:44:42 <sbp> oh. moin moin or usemod
09:45:10 <sbp> or KWiki
09:46:08 <sbp> thanks for trying it!
09:46:42 <d8uv> Ugh. I'd try it on the home server, but I suck on that one too.
09:47:04 <sbp> heh, heh
09:48:02 <d8uv> Bobby just wants a site.
09:48:14 <d8uv> I figure a locked wiki will do well.
09:48:27 <sbp> yep indeed
09:52:06 <sbp> heh. I ought to send Morbus a Valentine's Day message on Orkut
09:52:57 <sbp> "I think it is about time we had babies. Go and pick some up from WalMart. Yours, sbp"
09:53:26 <deltab> mmm, jelly babies
09:54:35 <sbp> aw, you can't choose a message
09:54:37 <sbp> deltab: ehheh
09:55:46 <xover> Hmmm. Doesn't recognize my USB keyboard/mouse…
10:04:33 <thelsdj> oh fuck, i think my box is rooted, only showed up after i rebooted hmm
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10:16:43 <xover> thelsdj: Make sure you make a backup copy of all the warez and nudie pictures before you scratch the box... :-)
10:17:48 <thelsdj> xover, lol, it seems my init has been replaced
10:17:57 <thelsdj> can't find where its set either
10:18:11 <thelsdj> and no one on this helpful irc network is ansering my damn questions haha
10:25:55 <xover> Due, if you've been rooted the *only* safe thing to do is to completely scratch the box. Bare metal reinstall.
10:26:39 <thelsdj> yea well, the thing is this has only been this way for a few hours, and it probably was setup MONTHS ago so the person who did it may have forgotten about this box
10:27:01 <xover> Doesn't matter, because you don't know what else he's installed.
10:27:47 <xover> i.e. there could be an active IRC and FTP server, and you woldn't know because netstat has been replaced.
10:29:18 <deltab> or the kernel interface netstat uses
10:29:35 <thelsdj> i refuse to admit that i'm not smarter than this fucker haha, actually i found the exact date it was installed so i should be able to check dates on other files to make sure they are safe
10:29:51 <deltab> unless they've been changed
10:30:57 <deltab> boot from trusted media, at least
10:31:25 <thelsdj> right, i think what i'll do is reinstall but keep /home (its on a separate partition anyways
10:32:52 <xover> Check for executable files, files with setuid set, ditch all .bashrc/.cshrc/.login/other -rc files...
10:33:48 <xover> * xover discovers he now has SELinux installed…
10:33:52 <xover> Apropos... :-)
10:34:23 <thelsdj> hmmm thats weird, find doesn't seem to have a sipmle option for finding files last accessed on a specific date
10:34:39 <deltab> -atime
10:34:51 <deltab> use it twice to give a range
10:34:56 <xover> SELinux + Tripwire + EXEC Shield ought to make a pretty compelling security combination.
10:35:52 <deltab> yaya, a Cog-style Sugar Puffs ad
10:36:03 <xover> :-)
10:38:39 <thelsdj> * thelsdj does a find / -mtime 37 > /root/modified (the files i know were installed 37 days ago)
10:40:29 <xover> Probably better also check ctime; IIRC atime and mtime can be set from touch.
10:41:41 <thelsdj> hmm looks like i did an apt-get upgrade on that day so theres a lot of files
10:42:54 <thelsdj> i guess i've decided i'll do a fresh install but now to dicide wether to stick with debian or try a diff distro hehe
10:43:50 <xover> Would you like some propaganda?
10:44:29 <thelsdj> sure
10:44:37 <thelsdj> i'm always up for some good propagandai
10:44:39 <deltab> thelsdj: note that checks whether the time was exactly 37 days ago
10:44:43 <deltab> you should use + and -
10:44:59 <deltab> (after and before)
10:45:06 <deltab> er
10:45:13 <deltab> more than and less than
10:45:25 <xover> I've been very happy with Red Hat since the late 7.x days, including 9; and Fedora Core looks very promising so far.
10:45:26 <thelsdj> like a -38 +36?
10:45:33 <deltab> * deltab nods
10:46:24 <xover> With Fedora the process has opened up significantly so you get a more Debian feel in that sense, except the version rev time is about 6 months so you don't wait forever for new toys.
10:46:47 <xover> I'd strongly reccomend taking a look at it.
10:46:58 <thelsdj> basically i've stuck with debian cause i get the new toys a few days after they come out hehe (testing)
10:47:31 <thelsdj> i don't think i oculd live without apt-get or some kind of ports clone (like gentoo)
10:50:02 <xover> Fedora is moving in that direction. Using "yum" at the moment IIRC.
10:53:21 <thelsdj> i tihnk i'mma try gentoo for the fun heh
10:53:29 <thelsdj> never tried it before
11:01:05 <thelsdj> i just wish i knew how i got rooted, i guess it was probably some remote exploit in some server i run but i really have no clue which one
11:28:50 <arcon> I strongly recommend taking a look at using gentoo
11:29:08 <arcon> It's a lot of fun and if you like BSD's ports you'll love portage/emerge
11:29:40 <arcon> it's pretty good about staying current, and I recommend doing a stage 1 install if you have the patience
11:30:13 <arcon> you can just let it run and go do something else for a while :)
11:30:33 <thelsdj> i wonder how long 'a while' is on a 800mhz duron with 256 megs ram haha
11:30:43 <arcon> hehe
11:30:58 <arcon> umm, not exactly, but I'd allocate a day for it anyways
11:31:07 <arcon> however, basically it's two commands that just run forever
11:31:19 <arcon> there's no need to watch it
11:31:26 <thelsdj> yea
11:31:36 <arcon> I must say, I have been a die hard Slackware fan for many many years, and I'm really loving gentoo
11:31:46 <arcon> it keeps that system v/bsd feel :)
11:32:01 <thelsdj> i have a small place in my heart saved for slackware
11:32:04 <arcon> and their way of handling init scripts is really cool
11:32:07 <thelsdj> it was my very very first distro
11:32:10 <thelsdj> 'zipslack'
11:32:10 <arcon> it's the best distro ever
11:32:30 <arcon> I have been subscribed to it since 3.0 and used it since just after 1 came out ;)
11:32:45 <thelsdj> zipslack was the coolest thing, i never would have been able to get into linux if i had had to repartition on my first attempt
11:32:46 <arcon> hehe, oh yeah, there are a few projects that sprung off that
11:33:05 <arcon> there's a livecd for gentoo if you want to giv eit a quick whirl
11:33:34 <thelsdj> i'm getting the first livecd so i can d/l a stage and then install
11:33:41 <arcon> one thing I like about it is since it compiles everything for scratch every package has all the options and integration you want on your system
11:34:00 <arcon> whihc means one package per 'app' instead of multiple module packages and a base package
11:34:21 <arcon> you can just grab the base cd, I think it's smaller
11:34:23 <thelsdj> i just hope i can figure out the optimal compile options for my system
11:34:44 <thelsdj> oh hmm, *goes looking again*
11:34:46 <thelsdj> only saw the livecd
11:34:52 <arcon> I'm having someone setup the cd with the cdcache option so I can ssh in remotely and install it without ever touching it
11:34:58 <arcon> It's a lot of fun ;)
11:35:00 <thelsdj> ah now i see it x86-basic-1.4
11:35:24 <thelsdj> nice only 95 megs
11:36:01 <thelsdj> why would they have to set cdcache for you to ssh in and install?
11:36:50 <arcon> Gentoo 1.4 CFLAGS (by processor type): http://www.freehackers.org/gentoo/gccflags/flag_gcc3.html
11:36:50 <swhacker> posted 153
11:37:13 <arcon> so that they can remove the cd once I install the stage 1 tarball
11:37:30 <arcon> then they can leave the colo and never come back, I reboot adter install and it's up ;)_
11:37:36 <thelsdj> ah ok
11:38:03 <arcon> assuming the instlal worked, but I've done it before on a system that had IDE RAID and it *miraculously* worked fine
11:42:25 <thelsdj> * thelsdj looks for a tar.gz of the install docs
11:42:35 <thelsdj> want do download it to my ibook so i can read them as i'm installing heh
11:42:55 <thelsdj> i've done debian installs without docs before but its always ncie to have them the first time you install a distro
11:43:01 <arcon> I think their install doc is all one page, linked off the main page
11:43:19 <arcon> you will want the docs here, they are quite long and the steps are not well automated.
11:43:42 <arcon> If you are used to a slackware install it won't be a big deal, but there are a few extra steps.
11:50:31 <thelsdj> hmm i'm thinking i can hook my cable modem up to my switch instead of directly into the ethernet card on this machine then i can get an ip on the ibook and on this machine instead of using this machine for ipmasq
11:50:59 <thelsdj> i think my cable modem account allows me 3 ips
11:59:52 <thelsdj> bahaha quick switch of some cables and i've got 2 ips so now time to reboot and start the install
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12:29:14 <thelsdj> on gentoo boot cd
12:29:18 <thelsdj> readin docs
12:59:43 <arcon> cool good luck
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22:33:49 <xover> * xover orders a small fortune in ThinkGeek T-Shirts…
22:34:31 <xover> Gods, but those things are dangerously tempting! :-]
22:34:32 <thelsdj> oooh fun
22:34:43 <thelsdj> * thelsdj is still compiling gentoo
22:35:43 <xover> Ouch. :-)
22:43:37 <arcon> hehe, how's it going thelsdj?
22:43:47 <arcon> emerging system at least?
22:51:23 <thelsdj> yup
22:51:53 <thelsdj> fell asleep 6 hours ago doing the bootstrap and woke up to that being done like 2 hours ago
22:52:27 <thelsdj> compiling coreutils now
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23:00:17 <arcon> cool
23:00:19 <verbosus> ’evening.
23:00:23 <arcon> good evening
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