00:01:26 <verbosus> *** verbosus (~verbosus@62.94.182.140) has joined #swhack
00:05:01 <sbp> * sbp waves, wanders off
00:05:32 <verbosus> bye!
00:14:55 <d8uv> *** d8uv (d8uv@16-67-237-24.gci.net) has joined #swhack
00:54:03 <verbosus> *** verbosus has left #swhack
01:59:17 <d8uv> "A man willing to wait is probably too pathetic to have sex with anyway." -- Jason Becker
03:45:10 <jillzilla> *** jillzilla has quit (Remote closed the connection)
04:23:10 <thelsdj> why's (poignant) guide to ruby (It's worth reading just for the prose): http://poignantguide.net/ruby/
04:23:10 <swhacker> posted 173
08:02:51 <sbp> 173::I wonder where he went with all those balloons. That crazy dog must have looked like a party with legs.
08:06:51 <sbp> this is so hillarious
08:16:25 <sbp> ruby sure does have a lot od different kinds of variables
08:16:29 <sbp> s/od/of/
08:40:26 <sbp> Enter a U.S. patent number, Get a PDF file of the patent (now you just need to memorize all the numbers): http://www.pat2pdf.com/
08:40:26 <swhacker> posted 174
12:59:20 <verbosus> *** verbosus (~verbosus@62.94.182.140) has joined #swhack
13:46:53 <verbosus> *** verbosus has changed the topic to: You are so ARROGANT! || Ash: JUST LIKE A BUMBLEBEE || It ain’t even a real LLLLLIMO!
14:18:09 <sbp> heh, heh
14:18:19 <verbosus> http://poignantguide.net/ruby/: A (Poignant) guide to Ruby
14:18:32 <sbp> <thelsdj> why's (poignant) guide to ruby (It's worth reading just for the prose): http://poignantguide.net/ruby/
14:18:32 <swhacker> posted 175
14:18:35 <sbp> oh shit
14:18:56 <verbosus> Welcome to #swhachewood
14:19:01 <sbp> 175:Also, I am stupid
14:19:11 <verbosus> 175:I’ll second that
14:19:15 <sbp> hehe
14:23:42 <sbp> CSS is way uncool sometimes
14:24:06 <sbp> but really I mean my mastery thereof
14:24:23 <sbp> current problem: padding where there should not be padding
14:24:37 <sbp> NOTHING can be causing this padding to occur
14:25:08 <sbp> * sbp tests his theory by putting "* { padding: 0; }" at the bottom of his stylesheet, and confirms it
14:27:20 <deltab> using Mozilla?
14:27:23 <sbp> and yet: padding, where there should not be padding
14:27:24 <sbp> yeah...
14:27:42 <sbp> Gecko/20040206 Firefox/0.8
14:28:09 <deltab> try the computed styles bookmarklet from squarefree.com/bookmarklets/
14:28:10 <verbosus> sbp: on which element?
14:28:46 <sbp> thanks deltab. hang on a second verbosus...
14:30:40 <sbp> wow, that's an incredible bookmarklet
14:31:54 <sbp> ah, the problem might be that my widths add up to 105%
14:32:06 <sbp> verbosus: it's a div, basically, though that probably doesn't help
14:32:15 <sbp> it's all divs. divs everywhere! :-)
14:32:24 <verbosus> <div>s all around
14:32:34 <verbosus> <div>s keep falling off my head
14:33:00 <sbp> oh, hmm
14:33:28 <sbp> I've figured out where the problem is, but it doesn't particularly make sense
14:34:04 <verbosus> explain
14:34:16 <verbosus> XPla1n, d00d!
14:35:02 <sbp> I have a div nested within a div. there's something floating to its side, and I have its width set to what should be the remainder of the space
14:35:12 <sbp> except that there's more space, for reasons unknown
14:36:26 <sbp> there are also divs inside that div, and if I put padding in those, they fall out the edge of the parent div, the one that's giving me the problem
14:38:41 <sbp> at least I solved that annoying two columns problem that Morbus was having. I wonder if he's solved it yet too?
14:41:58 <sbp> hmm
14:42:05 <sbp> * sbp fiddles with borders
14:48:41 <sbp> IE really sucks, too
14:48:54 <sbp> or again, my understanding of the insanity thereof
14:51:13 <verbosus> Dispelling Subversion FUD: http://www.red-bean.com/sussman/svn-anti-fud.html
15:07:46 <Morbus> *** Morbus (~morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
15:09:26 <sbp> ...can it really be?
15:09:30 <sbp> Morbus!
15:09:51 <Morbus> I AM THE WHORE AND THE PIMP. YOUR ANAL AND YOUR ORAL.
15:12:33 <sbp> ah, phew, it really is you
15:12:41 <sbp> how are you?
15:12:49 <Morbus> raw, ragged, and hungry for dick.
15:13:03 <Morbus> oh, right, swhack is logged.
15:13:13 <Morbus> dear gay people: i respect you, but your dick smells funny.
15:13:24 <Morbus> please work on the crotch rot, and maybe, MAYBE, i'll give you a kiss.
15:13:27 <Morbus> -- Morbus.
15:14:03 <sbp> hehe
15:14:33 <sbp> *** sbp has changed the topic to: Swhack: raw, ragged, and hungry for dick
15:14:44 <sbp> I fixed that two column problem, sorta
15:14:54 <sbp> I managed to get it working in everything but IE
15:14:54 <Morbus> what two col... oh, really? heh.
15:14:58 <sbp> so basically, just Mozilla
15:15:07 <sbp> but I feel like I'm *close* in IE too
15:15:11 <Morbus> sbp: i gave up on it.
15:15:20 <sbp> it won't vertical align correctly, but it should be. oh well
15:15:27 <sbp> yeah. it's tedious
15:15:28 <Morbus> http://disobey.com/noos/LibDB/dev/?tmpl=characters
15:15:36 <Morbus> that's the fallback I did.
15:15:39 <Morbus> doesn't look too bad, really.
15:15:59 <verbosus> * verbosus noticed the new topic
15:16:20 <sbp> cool. works in IE too
15:16:27 <verbosus> * verbosus is really – and I mean, really – scared by it
15:16:35 <sbp> hehheh
15:16:43 <sbp> welcome to Morbus' craphole
15:16:54 <Morbus> ENEMAS FOR EVERYONE!
15:16:59 <sbp> free?
15:17:12 <Morbus> aw, shucks, you got me in a good mood!
15:18:06 <Morbus> working long hours on libdb.
15:18:06 <d8uv> The Donuts (I would cry if I read this childrens book): http://www.thefucksociety.com/animation/pw_donuts.swf
15:18:07 <swhacker> posted 176
15:18:11 <Morbus> its gonna be amazing when its done.
15:18:18 <Morbus> well, not amazingm.
15:18:21 <d8uv> 176:Yes, it is flash. Eat me.
15:18:27 <d8uv> Go Morbus!
15:18:33 <Morbus> i feel like the term "amazing" is used to describe crap that is so complicated and new tech that its "amazing" it works.
15:18:51 <Morbus> libdb will just "work", then. it'll be based on the latest librarian developmentsm, but will work on a geocities account.
15:19:07 <Morbus> by its innocence and medicore requirements, it'll be "amazing".
15:19:12 <Morbus> and thus, my PR speech is done.
15:19:14 <Morbus> ;)
15:19:21 <sbp> * sbp glees
15:19:54 <Morbus> glees that its done, or glees because of my inspiring talk? ;)
15:19:59 <deltab> medicore is roughly equivalent to the NHS, right?
15:20:05 <Morbus> nhs?
15:20:19 <Morbus> hey deltab. i just realiezd yer part of the libdb list.
15:20:19 <Morbus> forgot all about that ;)
15:20:19 <sbp> because of the inspiration rhetoric, my dear man
15:20:23 <sbp> National Health Service
15:20:31 <Morbus> i don't understand.
15:20:40 <deltab> Morbus: er, yeah, sorry about that
15:20:49 <sbp> it is free healthcare that you have to wait centuries for
15:20:54 <Morbus> 'bout what? being a lurker on a list of 12? <g>
15:22:50 <deltab> Morbus: I read some of the messages and noticed you seeming to have slightly misunderstood some of the concepts in that book you linked to, but I didn't say anything :-(
15:23:02 <Morbus> "how's your chitty chitty? been bang bangin'?"
15:23:14 <Morbus> deltab: well, seriously, you should go nuts and rip me apart.
15:23:25 <Morbus> why didn't you say anything? that's worse than flaming.
15:23:31 <deltab> I know :-(
15:23:35 <sbp> too busy watching darkplace, deltab?
15:23:40 <Morbus> deltab: gimme an example.
15:24:12 <Morbus> let's have it out, right here, right now!
15:24:12 <deltab> erm
15:24:17 <Morbus> #swhack: reality tv.
15:24:45 <sbp> ooh, there's gonna be bitchslapping. I know it
15:24:58 <deltab> isn't this where you say "now playing: Fatboy Slim"?
15:25:42 <deltab> I can't remember any examples at the moment, sorry
15:26:37 <Morbus> deltab: this is positively infuriating.
15:26:43 <Morbus> man alive.
15:26:43 <deltab> yes
15:27:44 <deltab> you noted that users would differ in how strictly they'd apply rules, how much they'd learn of ontologies, etc.
15:27:48 <Morbus> alright, lets work with what you remember. you remember that i've "slightly misunderstood" some things. was it anything that required rework?
15:27:53 <Morbus> correct, yes.
15:28:12 <Morbus> but the current interface mentions all these uber terms?
15:28:38 <Morbus> that's because the IF is more of a "what i need to code" not "what users will see".
15:28:39 <deltab> it might be a good idea to store what class of user enters data
15:29:02 <Morbus> so that then upper levels would be able to say "show me data from people who know what they're doing"?
15:29:09 <deltab> right
15:29:19 <Morbus> was that a "slight misunderstood" or something else entirely?
15:29:30 <Morbus> deltab: i fear that, though.
15:29:32 <deltab> or "i have some time, give me something to verify and fix"
15:29:40 <Morbus> how can i put that to the user nicely?
15:29:46 <Morbus> "how dumb are you? 1, 2, or 3?"
15:30:17 <Morbus> ultimately, everyone would start out as a 1.
15:30:24 <sbp> what is your level of skill. O NOE NOT TEH SKILLZ0RED, normal, or SUPERDELTAB
15:30:26 <Morbus> and you'd have to choose a more complicated template to raise your level of awareness.
15:30:27 <deltab> different forms, simple to advanced?
15:30:31 <Morbus> yeah.
15:30:46 <Morbus> the template i'm working on now (for the add_film part at least) is more of a 1.
15:30:48 <d8uv> "Click here if you know about Ontologies" "Click here if you are a rampant dumbass"
15:31:12 <sbp> * sbp joins d8uv in the hecklers' lounge
15:31:47 <Morbus> what else do you remember?
15:32:14 <Morbus> deltab: so, you want that lvl applied to rows, not the whole db?
15:32:22 <Morbus> rows would be the only way to say "show me something to fix".
15:32:23 <deltab> did you notice the section in FRBR about parts?
15:32:29 <Morbus> s/rows/records/
15:32:46 <deltab> yes
15:33:21 <Morbus> i've noticed the section on parts, but I don't remember it 100%. my impression on the first read through was that it was related to individual physical parts of a whole: the study guide to an english book, the troika in a music CD, etc.
15:33:36 <Morbus> the parts that have been discussed on the list have been related to parts of a singular item.
15:33:46 <Morbus> pg 3 through 7, minutes 6:43 to 6:59.
15:33:53 <Morbus> i didn't think the frbr parts dialog covered that stuff.
15:33:59 <Morbus> but, again, i don't recall specifics.
15:34:15 <deltab> I wantUme neither
15:34:15 <Morbus> i've done no specific coding or development work on "parts" as a concept.
15:34:20 <deltab> me neither
15:34:31 <deltab> I wanted to read that section again before commenting
15:34:54 <Morbus> yeah.
15:35:03 <deltab> note to self: do not type two sentences at the same time
15:35:13 <Morbus> i wanted to read a bunch of stuff about movie encoding too before i did any "real" thoughtwork on it.
15:35:31 <Morbus> er, not movie encoding per se, but movie markup related stuff.
15:35:47 <Morbus> i've a document somewhere that talks about movie metadata.
15:35:49 <Morbus> * Morbus rummages.
15:35:50 <sbp> * sbp ponders the "U"
15:35:54 <deltab> Morbus: you're not daunted by the potential massive scale of it?
15:36:08 <Morbus> yeah, the ECHO metadata model.
15:36:11 <Morbus> massive scale of what?
15:36:17 <deltab> movies
15:36:24 <Morbus> not really.
15:36:30 <Morbus> i know what i want, and i strive to get it.
15:36:47 <deltab> so many people, so many pieces of work assembled
15:37:04 <Morbus> well, yeah, i mean, the amount of reading to be done sucks.
15:37:09 <Morbus> especially considering that no one can agree on anything.
15:37:40 <Morbus> but, i'm equally positive that whatever choice i make, a bunch of people are gonna say "you should use my idea instead".
15:37:40 <deltab> have you decided exactly what will be described and what won't?
15:37:51 <Morbus> regarding movies, or parts?
15:37:57 <deltab> either
15:38:13 <Morbus> ultimately, its up to the end-user, but i've modeled one of my own movies in the mysql_sample.sql
15:38:38 <Morbus> can you further clarify your q?
15:38:55 <Morbus> http://pc-erato2.iei.pi.cnr.it/echo/public/deliv/D3-1-1%20ECHO%20Metadata%20Modelling.pdf
15:39:15 <Morbus> the movie in the sample schema models production companies, hair and makeup assistances, and defines objects on a lievel like "swimwear"
15:39:34 <Morbus> it also keeps track of the characters played by a person, and the artisan (distribution company) catalog number.
15:39:43 <Morbus> i certainly don't expect "casual" users to care about that stuff.
15:39:52 <deltab> that sounds pretty detailed
15:39:59 <Morbus> and i have no doubt that librarians aren't gonna give a crap about the "artisan catalog number".
15:40:07 <Morbus> deltab: yeah, how much you put in is really up to you.
15:40:18 <Morbus> but the data that i've been building around as my base assumes a high level of detail.
15:40:32 <Morbus> personally, for mem, i'm gonna be marking up how people die in a movie.
15:40:39 <Morbus> so, my personal LibDB will include a "Death By" annotation.
15:40:51 <Morbus> which will be searched/indexed/shown along with all the other annotations, etc.
15:41:16 <Morbus> you'll be able to show all "death by garden tools" in "films" of the "1980s", for instance.
15:41:29 <sbp> * sbp is cracking up right now
15:41:30 <Morbus> where are the public logs/
15:41:36 <Morbus> sbp: what? <g>
15:41:36 <deltab> I suppose even something like Darth Maul's contact lenses could be considered works,
15:41:40 <sbp> http://notabug.com/swhack/chatlogs/
15:41:47 <Morbus> deltab: ah, i see what you mean.
15:41:48 <sbp> today: http://notabug.com/swhack/chatlogs/2004-02-20.html
15:42:27 <Morbus> deltab: well, the user could do that if they wanted.
15:42:30 <Morbus> i'm certainly not going to stop them.
15:42:35 <Morbus> but it doesn't make any goddamn sense.
15:43:30 <Morbus> yeah, in thinking about it, it's possible to catalog that.
15:43:31 <sbp> today I tried to look up William's drum patent in the US Patent Office database
15:43:38 <deltab> it might for the designer :-)
15:43:39 <sbp> all of the records before 1970 are in photographs only
15:43:42 <Morbus> but, i'm not sure it would *mean* anything.
15:43:50 <sbp> and the only two fields that you can search on are: patent number, and category
15:44:09 <sbp> not only that, but you can't search for keywords in the categories. oh no
15:44:13 <Morbus> it doesn't fit well in the frbr model, and it doesn't have any true identifiers (unless you consider retail model number duplicates, patent numbers, etc.)
15:44:21 <sbp> you have to look up the category that you want so you can find its index number, and then put that in
15:44:51 <sbp> so it'd be nice if you could search within the labels that you put in. will you allow that?
15:44:58 <sbp> so all deaths that contain the word "garden", etc.
15:44:58 <Morbus> but, deltab, yeah, if you wanted to make a contact lense database, sorted by color (concepts), objects (stars, spirals, cats eye), or event (halloween, swimming), you could do that.
15:45:18 <Morbus> sbp; yes, that'd be possible.
15:45:21 <Morbus> annotations can be searched by.
15:45:25 <deltab> and have them connected to the films in which they're used?
15:45:42 <sbp> good
15:46:01 <Morbus> deltab: yes, because you'd be able to define a) relationship types ("ie. film prop") and b) relationship ("this WORK is a FILMPROP of WORK")
15:46:29 <deltab> so it could get arbitrarily complex
15:46:34 <Morbus> yes.
15:46:46 <Morbus> the user determines how complex.
15:47:04 <Morbus> sbp: i don't have any plans (yet) to make a topic map interface, but the db supports it.
15:47:11 <Morbus> a concept can have a relationship to another concept.
15:47:33 <Morbus> so, the "Rake" object could be a RT to the "Garden Tool" object.
15:47:39 <Morbus> (related term).
15:48:00 <Morbus> you'd then be able to browse objects, concepts, places, etc., in a hierarchal sense.
15:48:09 <Morbus> or, show related terms on searches, in listings, et.c
15:48:24 <Morbus> deltab: thoughts on "arbitrarily complex"? is that good ro bad?
15:49:15 <deltab> Morbus: nice in theory, but could chew up lots of time
15:49:36 <Morbus> deltab: doesn't sound any different from any other metadata-galore system though.
15:49:42 <deltab> * deltab nods
15:50:11 <Morbus> i think the only people who would truly *use* *use* the metadata system would be the second level of user.
15:50:21 <Morbus> the first (casual) user wouldn't want to put that much effort in.
15:50:27 <Morbus> the third (librarian) wouldn't have TIME to put that much effort in.
15:50:37 <Morbus> so only the second (discriminating) user would attempt to.
15:51:10 <Morbus> but, that's not to say that it won't be possible for the other users.
15:56:24 <Morbus> deltab: remember anything?
15:56:36 <Morbus> other concerns, thoughts?
15:56:38 <deltab> too tired
15:56:48 <Morbus> well, write 'em down, foo.
15:56:58 <Morbus> i've no idea why you didn't before.
15:57:03 <deltab> that requires choosing words
15:57:16 <Morbus> just -- and ++/.
15:57:29 <Morbus> i'll coax the real reason out of you at the end of a 30 message thread of questions and one word answers.
15:57:31 <Morbus> it'll be fun.
15:57:42 <sbp> wrong
15:57:42 <Morbus> :)
15:57:44 <deltab> heh
15:57:52 <deltab> reminds me of a comic
15:58:25 <deltab> sbp: did you see those?
15:58:27 <Morbus> deltab, pasting our pertinent parts to the list.
15:58:38 <sbp> which comics?
15:58:53 <sbp> I should show Morbus the daze ones
15:59:03 <deltab> recent, M&E
15:59:28 <sbp> M&E? nope
15:59:36 <sbp> sploge: grep daze
15:59:47 <sbp> splodge: grep http.*daze
15:59:54 <splodge> I'm logging. I found 5 answers for 'http.*daze'
15:59:55 <splodge> 0) 2004-02-20 15:59:47 <sbp> splodge: grep http.*daze
15:59:56 <splodge> 1) 2004-02-19 07:14:49 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.dazeofourlives.com/020102.htm
15:59:57 <splodge> 2) 2004-02-19 07:01:47 <sbp> chuckle: http://www.dazeofourlives.com/011109.htm
15:59:58 <splodge> 3) 2004-02-19 07:01:04 <sbp> haha: http://www.dazeofourlives.com/011107.htm
15:59:59 <splodge> 4) 2004-02-19 06:57:47 <sbp> - http://www.dazeofourlives.com/011101.htm
16:00:01 <deltab> some of them were published in interrobang
16:00:19 <sbp> I only read that mini-thread that Jill pointed us to first of all
16:00:41 <deltab> I can't remember the name
16:06:11 <deltab> heh, I was wondering why aaronsw was against the lookup of facts
16:06:44 <sbp> ?
16:08:33 <sbp> Morbus: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/15/10317/6809
16:09:13 <Morbus> bookmarked.
16:09:26 <deltab> http://tailsteak.netherweb.com/archive.php?num=178
16:09:34 <deltab> http://tailsteak.netherweb.com/archive.php?num=182
16:10:26 <sbp> heh. "Tails (Up yours.)" it would be
16:12:17 <sbp> got the against the lookup of facts thing too...
16:12:37 <sbp> so irritating
16:12:52 <sbp> it'd be alright if it were boring quotes that no one cared about
16:13:49 <Morbus> heavily edited chat transcript away! ;)
16:14:49 <sbp> I hope you made me look intelligent and insightful during the conversation
16:15:49 <Morbus> if you mean, "deleted everything i said", yes.
16:15:56 <sbp> phew
16:16:00 <Morbus> you're positively brilliant, then ;)
16:33:28 <Morbus> ahem.
16:34:02 <sbp> oh, sorry
16:34:10 <sbp> you're even positively brillianter, Morbus
16:34:27 <Morbus> thank you.
16:34:40 <Morbus> so, who else is waiting for bellalovesjenna.com?
16:35:57 <Morbus> watch the trailer if you're bored.
16:35:59 <Morbus> quite entertaining.
16:50:51 <verbosus> * verbosus heads off for the weekend
16:51:11 <verbosus> see y’all next week, have a nice break :-)
16:52:51 <sbp> c'ya verbosus!
16:53:04 <Morbus> *** Morbus has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
16:53:45 <verbosus> *** verbosus has left #swhack
17:33:33 <AaronSw> *** AaronSw (~Snak@c-24-13-224-74.client.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
17:38:32 <AaronSw> heh: "Heh heh heh. I love it when research uncovers results that are uncomfortable to people."
17:41:05 <AaronSw> Link Between Lying and Popularity (popular people lie better): http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/12/991214072623.htm
17:41:05 <swhacker> posted 177
17:41:21 <AaronSw> 177:<zooko> Heh heh heh. I love it when research uncovers results that are uncomfortable to people.
17:41:32 <AaronSw> 177:<zooko> I guess if we want Irby to be popular we'd better start teaching him how to lie effectively!
17:42:13 <AaronSw> 177:That's a post-propter fallacy though, it could be that good social skills are required for lying.
17:42:56 <AaronSw> 177::The study found that older adolescents were more adept at deception than the younger ones. Younger or older females were more likely to excel at lying than their male counterparts. Among all ages and genders, those adolescents with the highest level of social competence were the most talented liars.
17:43:02 <deltab> I expect both involve modelling the mental states of others
17:43:29 <AaronSw> Mm, good point.
17:43:42 <AaronSw> I also suspect that, to some extent, getting someone to like you makes it easier to deceive them
17:45:19 <AaronSw> 177: This may be because both require some similar skill (e.g. modelling the mental states of others, as deltab suggests) or because one assists with the other (getting people to like you makes it easier to dupe them, or lying to people makes you more likable).
17:45:57 <AaronSw> 177: Only in the getting-people-to-like-you-helps-deceive-them case would teaching lying not be helpful.
17:46:00 <sbp> Aaron and Morbus on the same day? is it [non-demonitional holiday]?!
17:46:45 <sbp> your table-cells CSS doesn't work on IE, by the way
17:46:55 <sbp> neither does float, though, so you're okay there
17:47:16 <AaronSw> 177: The study seems to suggest that it's because both tasks require being able to control their behavior (e.g. mannerisms, posture, eye contact, etc.).
17:47:39 <AaronSw> 177: Then there's the obligatory scientist moralizing: "It's unrealistic to expect [people] to always tell the truth."
17:49:31 <sbp> bloglines displays google.blogspace.com pretty near the top of its most popular feeds, by the way. congrats
17:50:31 <AaronSw> Gore and the Net (by Philip Hallam-Baker): http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=T9dx5.4763%24tn.61662%40typhoon.ne.mediaone.net
17:50:31 <swhacker> posted 178
17:50:56 <AaronSw> 178::Gore had the usual problem of a US vice president, the job has considerable prestige but no powers. Essentially the job consists of waiting for the President to die or reach his term limit. Gore's plans were rather more ambitious. He wanted to overhaul the machinery of government itself.
17:51:58 <sbp> are you s... oh nevermind
17:52:47 <AaronSw> 178::Gore had the usual problem of a US vice president, the job has considerable prestige but no powers. Essentially the job consists of waiting for the President to die or reach his term limit. Gore's plans were rather more ambitious. He wanted to overhaul the machinery of government itself.</p><p>[...] Each time an agency or department head went to see the Veep, Gore would spend some minutes at the end proudly showing off the p
17:52:47 <AaronSw> rototype [Whitehouse website]. At the end of the tour they would visit the homepage of the appointee's agency. Those who saw 302 Not found got the message that they had better correct it before they saw the Veep again. That is why the CIA and NSA had web sites from the start of the program.
17:54:06 <deltab> truncated at "showing off the p"
17:54:22 <AaronSw> 178::[A] US vice president[] has considerable prestige but no powers. [T]he job consists of waiting for the President to die or reach his term limit. Gore [] wanted to overhaul the machinery of government itself. [...] Each time an agency or department head went to see the Veep, Gore would [] show[] off the [] [Whitehouse website]. At the end of the tour they would visit the homepage of the appointee's agency. Those who saw 302 N
17:54:22 <AaronSw> ot found got the message that they had better correct it before they saw the Veep again. That is why the CIA and NSA had web sites from the start of the program.
17:54:30 <AaronSw> argh
17:55:11 <sbp> start it with [Judicious refactoring]
17:55:19 <sbp> [Much refact'ng]
17:55:31 <sbp> [Refact'd]
17:55:38 <AaronSw> 178::A US vice president's job consists of waiting for the President to die or reach his term limit. Gore wanted to overhaul the machinery of government itself. [...] Each time an agency or department head went to see the Veep, Gore would show off the Whitehouse website. At the end they would visit the homepage of the appointee's agency. Those who saw 302 Not found got the message they had better correct it before they saw the
17:55:38 <AaronSw> Veep again. That is why the CIA and NSA had web sites from the start.
17:55:58 <AaronSw> 178::Each time an agency or department head went to see the Veep, Gore would show off the Whitehouse website. At the end they would visit the homepage of the appointee's agency. Those who saw 302 Not found got the message they had better correct it before they saw the Veep again. That is why the CIA and NSA had web sites from the start. (quote edited)
17:56:54 <AaronSw> "CERN's support for the Web was at all times reluctant, the physicists hated the fact that the Web got more press."
17:57:03 <sbp> why don't we just use del.icio.us instead?
17:57:12 <sbp> set up a swhacker account, have the bot interface it
17:57:31 <AaronSw> why?
17:57:50 <sbp> I just thought it might a) be less hassle, b) bring more people to it
17:58:15 <AaronSw> i don't see why either of those would be true
17:58:55 <sbp> how many hits does swhackit get per day?
17:59:01 <AaronSw> doesn't look like PHB ever finished his book
17:59:10 <AaronSw> hits: i don't keep track of those things
17:59:34 <sbp> so you're saying that you're not going to defend your counter-argument with the statistics that only you can provide?
17:59:37 <AaronSw> 178:|Gore Helped Create the Web
18:00:02 <AaronSw> i think the onus is on you to explain how moving to del.ico.us could get us more visitors
18:00:20 <sbp> it's a huge popular site!
18:00:47 <sbp> it was just a random idea
18:01:04 <AaronSw> i don't think people actually read the front page regularly
18:01:10 <sbp> really? hmm
18:01:35 <sbp> * sbp contemplates asking Joshua, but the idea is scary to him
18:02:49 <AaronSw> also, the site doesn't seem to have an api for modifying posts
18:03:41 <sbp> ah, that sucks. no problem then
18:07:10 <AaronSw> heh "marriage spree" - http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040220/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage_calif_15
18:08:30 <AaronSw> ooh: "New Mexico's Sandoval County said it will issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples because it had no legal grounds to refuse them."
18:08:35 <AaronSw> gotta update wikipedia
18:30:10 <AaronSw> barnett on the ninth amendment: http://volokh.com/2004_02_15_volokh_archive.html#107722332320133230
18:44:13 <sbp> so what's the evolutionary purpose of homosexuality? to stop overpopulation?
18:44:41 <sbp> has anyone traced a link between overpopulated areas and homosexuality? can it even be triggered environmentally, or is it some social thing?
18:45:05 <sbp> are suicide/depression linked in a similar way?
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18:55:43 <sbp> this is like a lurkerswap, isn't it? :-)
18:55:54 <sbp> you lurk my channel, I'll lurk yours
18:56:00 <JibberJim> Yep!
19:01:09 <AaronSw> How can homosexuality have an evolutionary purpose?
19:01:24 <AaronSw> It's extremely unlikely to propagate itself.
19:01:36 <AaronSw> Therefore it proves the existence of some Higher Being!
19:02:34 <AaronSw> Thus, the Higher Being clearly supports homosexuality, having created it.
19:02:39 <AaronSw> Same with suicide.
19:03:52 <sbp> well, one would think that it would've died out by now if it was counter-beneficial to humanity
19:04:11 <AaronSw> huh?
19:04:19 <sbp> it may be that everyone has the same probability, biologically speaking, of becoming homosexual
19:04:22 <AaronSw> why wouldn't it die out if it was beneficial?
19:04:33 <sbp> because it's beneficial!
19:04:42 <JibberJim> beneficial
19:04:51 <AaronSw> but gay people rarely pass on their traits!
19:05:03 <sbp> ah, but you're thinking in terms of actual people
19:05:08 <AaronSw> especially the ones helpful to stopping overpopulation
19:05:08 <JibberJim> The thing that makes a portion of people homosexual is beneficial for everyone.
19:05:08 <sbp> I'm thinking in terms of types of people
19:05:24 <JibberJim> The same way sickle cell anaemia is beneficial to sub-saharan africans.
19:05:26 <sbp> evolutionary matters affect a very wide range of people
19:05:36 <sbp> right
19:05:47 <JibberJim> it's not, it's nasty, but it provides protection against malaria.
19:06:12 <AaronSw> sbp, i don't recall evolution having any especial exception for types. pls explain.
19:06:34 <thelsdj> Textbooks in Mathematics (Links to free (legally) math textbooks, tutorials and lecture notes online): http://us.geocities.com/alex_stef/mylist.html
19:06:34 <swhacker> posted 179
19:07:21 <sbp> let's say there are two groups of people, A and B. group A is on one continent and group B is on another. they're both identical except that group A people have a 10% chance of becoming homosexual, whilst group B people only have a 0.000001% chance
19:07:38 <sbp> group B becomes over populated and they all die eventually because they suck at coping
19:07:48 <sbp> group A don't
19:08:02 <sbp> group A win the evolutionary race and pick up the little trophie
19:08:24 <AaronSw> OK, that's reasonable, but that postulates the existance of a Group A. How does group A ever get to exist? they all simultaneously mutate?
19:08:51 <AaronSw> i have seen no evidence of such mass simultaneous mutation
19:09:05 <sbp> well, that's evolution. how did Homo Erectus come to exist? they co-existed with Homo Neanderthalus
19:09:19 <sbp> I've seen no study of it!
19:09:26 <sbp> doesn't mean it doesn't exist
19:09:37 <AaronSw> oh come on, it seems pretty unlikely.
19:09:58 <AaronSw> all of the sudden everybody's genes change to increase their probability? what kind of force could do that?
19:10:09 <JibberJim> Or that the tendency for homosexuality runs alongside the tendency to co-operate.
19:10:10 <thelsdj> god?
19:10:13 <AaronSw> and if it exists, wouldn't it be a powerful biological weapon?
19:10:20 <AaronSw> thelsdj, yes, that's what I said.
19:10:34 <thelsdj> ah yes i see you did
19:10:40 <JibberJim> So the genes which lead to homosexuality also lead to co-operation.
19:11:03 <AaronSw> JibberJim's suggestion makes sense. The genes could have beneficial side-effects for the other 99%.
19:11:06 <JibberJim> Also remember that historically human pressure has been on all to mate, regardless of their sexual preferences, it was their religious duty.
19:11:28 <JibberJim> So there'd be a lot less of this failure to pass the genes on.
19:11:47 <AaronSw> but that would make homosexuality a side-effect and eliminate Sean's beneficiality argument
19:12:56 <sbp> groups don't tend to come into being at once... but evolution is hard to explain. you might have a group of people with a slightly higher chance of being homosexual rush off towards a western coast for example, digging for gold. that's probably why San Francisco is the gay capital of the world!
19:13:12 <sbp> seriously, the problems that you have with it seem to be problems with evolution in general
19:13:39 <sbp> which is fine, but I'm not debating evolution here. part of my premise is taking Darwin's theories and subsequent mutations thereof to be true
19:14:35 <sbp> how can you explain why the Galapagos finches all developed different beak shapes at once to become more accustomed to their environments?
19:14:50 <sbp> it wasn't *at* *once*; that's the thing
19:15:14 <AaronSw> these aren't problems with evolution in general! you're making up some absurd new magical form of communication and pretending you didn't
19:15:16 <sbp> it takes seclusion, though not total seclusion, and time (so goes the theory)
19:15:25 <thelsdj> sure i can explain
19:15:27 <sbp> magical form of communication?
19:15:34 <AaronSw> new gene-radio
19:15:35 <thelsdj> god recompiled the class
19:16:30 <AaronSw> why would the group that was more likely to be gay go to SF?
19:16:53 <sbp> because gold is pretty
19:16:59 <AaronSw> but it's pretty to everyon!
19:17:10 <sbp> more pretty to homos
19:17:19 <AaronSw> but they're not all homos!
19:17:27 <sbp> no, but it's not a binary thing
19:17:45 <AaronSw> fine, so gayness is a side-effect
19:17:51 <AaronSw> and thus there's no evolutionary argument for it
19:18:11 <AaronSw> oh wait, I see where you're going
19:18:15 <sbp> "so"? where did you get that "so" from? what part of what I said causes your delusion that gayness is a side-effect? and a side-effect of what?
19:19:15 <sbp> I'm saying that for various arbitrary and very complicated reasons, you get pockets of people who are more gay than others, and that those pockets are more likely to survive when overcrowding would normally become an issue
19:19:39 <AaronSw> OK, but that's a long way off, so gayness has not yet been subjected to evolutionary pressure
19:19:55 <JibberJim> I think my co-operativeness is a better one than overcrowding sbp...
19:19:57 <sbp> well, it might never be
19:20:19 <AaronSw> so we agree, there is no evolutionary reason for it
19:20:32 <JibberJim> no, there's an unknown evolutionary reason for it.
19:20:37 <sbp> only if you get too much overcrowding. so it regulates itself--too much gayness means too little reproduction, and too little means too much overcrowding
19:20:40 <AaronSw> (sbp argues that there are possible benefits for it in the future, which is different)
19:20:52 <sbp> no, I'm saying there's benefits already!
19:21:26 <AaronSw> but they haven't demonstrated themselves evolutionarily
19:21:30 <sbp> this could all very well have happened. you can't tell me for certain that homosexuality has not played a beneficial role in humanity along the lines that I've been describing--to prevent overpopulation
19:21:48 <sbp> but it may have done
19:22:03 <AaronSw> well there's no record of people dying of overcrowding!
19:22:14 <sbp> wrong. Easter Island
19:22:29 <sbp> that was a total wipeout
19:22:42 <JibberJim> no it wasn't!
19:22:49 <sbp> but it doesn't even need to be a total wipeout--you just might have more poverty etc. in an overcrowded place
19:22:56 <AaronSw> i don't think we were in serious danger of easter island invasion
19:22:56 <JibberJim> there were still people who knew how to make the statues.
19:23:22 <sbp> Jim: that was before they all died out... actually, I think their population just went down to like 0.05% of its original
19:23:33 <sbp> we've got poverty in overcrowded areas
19:24:32 <sbp> again, you seem to be thinking in binary terms--there's either total catastrophic overcrowding or there isn't. but it's much more subtle than that
19:25:14 <sbp> it happens even on the household level. family has another kid, family has another mouth to feed and that may put them over the edge--everybody gets less
19:25:19 <AaronSw> eh, OK, I guess sbp's argument is reasonable
19:25:30 <thelsdj> * thelsdj nods
19:26:04 <thelsdj> i still dont' understand what it has to do with there being pockets of more gay people than other places, that just seems social to me
19:26:16 <sbp> it's a shame that this is all conjecture, though I'd be surprised if someone *hadn't* done proper research along these lines
19:26:50 <sbp> I'm actually not too sure how people can come to be gay socially
19:27:05 <AaronSw> highgays get 1%/N more resources (those of the highgay's non-existant children) so sexual selection prefers them over non-highgays, causing them to conquer non-highgays
19:27:11 <thelsdj> no, i mean people who are already gay congregate in a certain place
19:27:12 <sbp> especially in a culture where it's still pretty much frowned upon
19:27:26 <JibberJim> Also a homosexual member of the family will provide an extra worker, but not extra mouths to feed.
19:27:28 <sbp> oh, well, even random distribution would ensure pockets of gayness
19:27:43 <sbp> heh, heh. yeah. that's a good local demonstration
19:28:35 <sbp> I think Aaron and Jim just said the same thing in very different ways there...
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19:29:01 <thelsdj> take SF for example, theres lots of gay people there not because people who live there have a more promenent gay gene but because thats the place you move if you're gay and want to hang out with the gay community
19:29:47 <sbp> but how did it become a community in the first place?
19:30:02 <sbp> sure, now there's a cumulative effect
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19:30:08 <thelsdj> 60's and 70's
19:30:11 <thelsdj> hippy movement
19:30:19 <thelsdj> it was a more open place
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19:30:45 <thelsdj> read a lil history of SF back in the 60's and 70's and you'll see how it became the way it is
19:31:07 <sbp> so it wasn't gold? dang
19:31:18 <thelsdj> nope lol
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19:32:26 <thelsdj> they hippy movement made non gay people in SF more acceptant of gay people
19:32:38 <thelsdj> and just more acceptant in general
19:33:06 <sbp> all this talk about SF makes me want to play Baby, You're A Rich Man again
19:33:29 <sbp> * sbp does so
19:34:55 <thelsdj> damn i just found out that my main apple hookup (for when i have those nasty mac cravings) got sent back to prison on a parole violation :(
19:35:21 <thelsdj> atleast his girlfriend was nice enough to 'hook me up'
19:35:56 <sbp> hmm
19:36:59 <thelsdj> he was a real nice guy and now he won't be out till jan '05, i should write him some letters and keep him up to date on whats goin on with apple haha
19:37:11 <sbp> man, my left speaker is so fucked. I've got the balance right over and the volume right up to compensate...
19:37:16 <sbp> heh, heh
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19:38:41 <thelsdj> i wonder how support for enclosures is in recent versions of rss aggregators
19:45:44 <AaronSw> I've decided that if I'm going to commit crimes, I'll immigrate to that country with the nice prisons first
19:45:59 <AaronSw> err emigrate?
19:47:06 <AaronSw> i mean, as long as I get a bed and an internet connection, I'm set
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19:47:29 <sbp> which country is that?
19:47:50 <AaronSw> I forget, I read about it in _Catch Me If You Can_, the Frank Abagnale story
19:48:08 <AaronSw> apparently they have exellent meals and extremely comfortable beds, like a hotel
19:48:16 <AaronSw> and all sorts of entertainment activities and such
19:48:16 <sbp> nice
19:48:41 <AaronSw> ah, amazon has it -- i can search inside
19:49:21 <AaronSw> ah, Sweden
19:49:39 <sbp> Scandinavia. nice touch
19:50:44 <Jara[zZ]> *** Jara[zZ] (~Jaramir@62.123.113.49) has joined #swhack
19:50:50 <AaronSw> "This was no cell, it was an apartment, a huge spacious room with a great picture window overlooking the village, a large bed with carved head and footboard and a colorful spread, rustic furniture and a separate bathroom with both a tub and a shower."
19:51:08 <AaronSw> "tasteful drapes [...] afforded privacy from outside passersby."
19:51:27 <sbp> why did he get imprisoned?
19:51:35 <sbp> someone recommended it?
19:51:52 <AaronSw> He was a criminal mastermind, cheating people out of millions
19:52:23 <AaronSw> he'd just gotten out of a french maximum security prison, where there was no light, no bathrooms -- just a floor, and nobody else to talk to
19:52:44 <sbp> I'll bet they had wine though
19:52:45 <AaronSw> they had minimal food and prisoners often died after a year
19:52:54 <sbp> ouch
19:53:30 <AaronSw> soon after they got to sweden a doctor examined him and found he had "severe malnutirition and vitamin deficiency [...and] double pneumonia
19:53:50 <AaronSw> so they took him to a hospital for free
19:53:50 <sbp> how did he manage to be transferred?
19:54:19 <AaronSw> i think sweden extradited him for comitting crimes in their country as well
19:54:50 <sbp> but if he was already serving time... that's bizarre
19:55:03 <AaronSw> his time in france may have been up... i forget
19:55:08 <sbp> ah
19:55:29 <sbp> so the message is to get imprisoned in Sweden but certainly not France? okay
19:55:50 <AaronSw> yeah
19:57:04 <AaronSw> it's a fun book -- he was a real clever guy
19:57:43 <sbp> can't've been clever enough, though, if he got busted and sent to a French gaol
19:58:22 <AaronSw> well, he was doublecrossed by a girl, as i recall
19:58:36 <sbp> oh right. it's always a girl...
19:59:29 <sbp> he didn't have a door in the Swedish prison?
19:59:29 <JibberJim> Unless you're one of those male homosexuals....
19:59:31 <AaronSw> oh, and the maximum penalty in Sweden is one year
19:59:40 <sbp> heh, for anything?
19:59:53 <sbp> Jim: point
20:00:34 <AaronSw> "Murderers and bank robers rarely receive over ten years on convinction [...] we consider a year in prison a very serious punishment"
20:00:46 <AaronSw> (he was expecting 20 years)
20:01:51 <sbp> this is the country that legalized sex on the T.V. and banned violence, no?
20:02:06 <sbp> perhaps that's why things sound peachy there
20:02:10 <AaronSw> "I could, during my term, either attend classes at the university or work in a parachute factory [...] Or I could simply serve my time [...] If I attended classes, the Swedish Government would pay my tuition and furnish my supplies. If I chose to work [...] I would be paid the prevailing free-world wage for my job classification"
20:02:34 <sbp> what'd he choose?
20:02:58 <AaronSw> well, apparently he decided to figure out how to escape
20:03:03 <sbp> haha
20:03:14 <AaronSw> he did that a lot
20:03:30 <sbp> * sbp nods
20:03:39 <AaronSw> oh wait, he did both
20:03:45 <AaronSw> factory and school
20:03:56 <AaronSw> since he was a counterfeiter, he studied commercial art
20:03:58 <sbp> did he ever escape?
20:04:01 <sbp> chuckle
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20:04:10 <sbp> hey there {MaxMan}
20:04:16 <sbp> welcome to book hour on #swhack
20:04:23 <sbp> oh, and this is publically logged and whatnot
20:05:13 <sbp> I must also note that I am not a bot
20:05:15 <AaronSw> yeah, he got a friendly judge to send him back to the US
20:05:26 <sbp> to a US prison?
20:05:45 <AaronSw> well, supposedly, but on the plane ride back he jumped into the toilet and off the plane
20:06:11 <sbp> ...he flushed himself down it?
20:06:26 <AaronSw> i think he unscrewed the toilet first
20:06:35 <JibberJim> nah, it was one of those old train style toilets, just a hole into the beyond.
20:06:35 <sbp> in mid-flight?
20:06:53 <AaronSw> as they were landing
20:06:58 <AaronSw> they caught him a while later, but then he got off again by offering to train the government agents to catch people like him.
20:07:18 <{MaxMan}> <sbp> I must also note that I am not a bot <-- hehe
20:07:21 <sbp> hole into the beyond: heh!
20:07:40 <sbp> that's so great
20:07:47 <JibberJim> hmm, news.bbc.co.uk had a thing on Bots and the turing test today, that's just the sort of thing they'd say maxman
20:07:54 <sbp> and then he wrote abook about how he conned the fuck out of everyone? did they not want to get him again? :-)
20:08:03 <sbp> ME NOT BOT
20:08:09 <{MaxMan}> for a min i thought u were
20:08:12 <{MaxMan}> thats why i didnt reply
20:08:20 <AaronSw> well now he works for corporations on anti-counterfeiting measures
20:08:22 <sbp> SyntaxError Line 1: Aaron's bad coding
20:08:43 <sbp> I think I may have to try to track down a copy of this book
20:08:52 <sbp> though I feel like I've read it already
20:08:59 <AaronSw> aha: he got out of sweden because a judge revoked his US passport so he was an illegal alien and they deported him
20:09:06 <AaronSw> no, there's lots more good stuff
20:09:14 <AaronSw> ISBN 0767905385
20:09:18 <AaronSw> they made a movie of it too
20:09:28 <sbp> man, it's going to be expensive
20:09:41 <sbp> * sbp Amazons
20:10:19 <AaronSw> seems to be ISBN 1840187166 in UK
20:10:48 <sbp> oh, I remember the film coming out now
20:10:52 <sbp> hmm, £6.39. not bad
20:11:06 <JibberJim> how you getting on with Mother Tongue?
20:11:17 <{MaxMan}> whats the book called ?
20:11:36 <AaronSw> "Catch me if you can"
20:12:10 <AaronSw> have you seen this? http://labs.oclc.org/xisbn/1840187166
20:12:40 <sbp> Mother Tounge: started reading, got well into it, but haven't picked it up for a bit. it's great though
20:12:57 <sbp> xisbn: converts from US to UK and vice versa?
20:13:06 <AaronSw> it finds all associated ISBNs
20:13:24 <sbp> I hadn't, no
20:13:35 <AaronSw> different editions and printings and such
20:16:10 <sbp> * sbp reads http://www.abagnale.com/comments.htm
20:19:41 <AaronSw> * AaronSw wanders off
20:20:40 <{MaxMan}> * {MaxMan} read the website too
20:21:33 <sbp> from #joiito: http://bugmenot.com/ (bypass website registrations; basically a list of username and password combos)
20:23:28 <{MaxMan}> anythign for running ona linksys b router :P
20:26:52 <AaronSw> abcdef31415
20:31:38 <AaronSw> that bugmenot is pretty cool
20:31:41 <AaronSw> good idea
20:32:39 <AaronSw> but their captchas could use some work
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23:53:21 <q8uv> Hi.
23:53:28 <q8uv> *** q8uv is now known as d8uv
23:54:08 <d8uv> "My cat Dusty is 14.5 or so years old. Lately she's not been eating, defecating, and she's been pissing all over the place. I'm gonna take her to the vet now. This is crap." -- me from http://www.houseofbugs.com/?board_id=2&thread_id=10329
23:54:21 <d8uv> Leaving in a few minutes.
23:58:50 <d8uv> Seeya