00:00:15 <Morbus> NP: 'All Mine' from Portishead's album 'PNYC'; Unrated; http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000GB24/disobeycom/
00:02:54 <kandinski> I am not completely back, you know
00:03:04 <kandinski> I have two classes tomorrow and thursday in Cuenca
00:03:14 <kandinski> and I have no clean underwear
00:04:28 <d8uv> kandinski: Clean socks?
00:04:43 <kandinski> none
00:04:43 <sbp> yeah. if you have socks and an elastic band, that suffices
00:04:56 <sbp> * sbp can tell that d8uv is from the same class as him, more or less
00:04:57 <kandinski> all in my lost suitcase
00:05:12 <sbp> hmm. you can't strap the suitcase around you either then...
00:05:12 <kandinski> I have been known to use the socks and elastic band trick for comic effect
00:05:17 <sbp> heh, heh
00:05:24 <kandinski> but this is serious
00:05:42 <kandinski> unless I can find a big enough rubber red nose
00:06:20 <d8uv> And sbp, no. I was thinking ducttape.
00:06:48 <d8uv> Sorry we aren't of the same class.
00:07:03 <redmonk> *** redmonk has quit ("Quitting")
00:07:09 <sbp> oh well
00:09:01 <d8uv> I can only think of fashioning papertowel diapers at this time, kandinski.
00:10:56 <d8uv> Sorry
00:12:16 <sbp> sellotape and marker pen
00:14:03 <evangineer> * evangineer wonders if there is an equivalent to a 24 hr Tesco/Asda in kandinski's neighbourhood
00:14:14 <kandinski> I am splurging out on jockey shorts, tee shirts and socks tomorrow first thing in the morning
00:14:20 <kandinski> but I would have rather done laundry
00:14:35 <evangineer> * evangineer nods understandingly
00:20:02 <kandinski> no, not anything
00:20:12 <kandinski> I got a 24 hour convenience store
00:20:18 <kandinski> but I live in the center
00:20:25 <kandinski> think leicester Square in London
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00:33:39 <evangineer> * evangineer is lucky enough to have both a 24hr Tesco and Asda within walking distance.
00:33:46 <evangineer> when I'm back in london that is
00:34:38 <d8uv> I have a 2 24 hr Willams Expresses and 1 texaco station within walking distance.
00:36:42 <kandinski> d8uv, I have three museums full of 16th century paintings to XXIst century installation art within walking distance... but I would have to walk in my grungy underwear from walking in the Barcelona heat and sitting around in a fucking airport because there is no way to buy anything until tomorrow
00:40:13 <d8uv> There are moose here.
00:40:15 <d8uv> I WIN!
00:43:30 <kandinski> if there is clean underwear for sale at the Williams Express or Texaco, you had already won
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01:27:09 <kandinski> güel
01:27:11 <kandinski> Manuel
01:27:19 <kandinski> I am gone
01:32:31 <kandinski> bye all
01:32:47 <UnknownQ> later kandinski
01:33:52 <UnknownQ> no matter how hard i try i can't see what's so offensive about the results for "jew" on google
01:37:37 <d8uv> The second or so result is anti-semitic.
01:37:43 <d8uv> Which is dumb.
01:38:12 <deltab> fourth of the results I see
01:38:53 <UnknownQ> meh.
01:39:01 <UnknownQ> not really google's fault
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02:04:35 <xover> Oh for crying out loud... The search results were "disturbing"?
02:05:39 <UnknownQ> xover, meh?
02:06:48 <xover> There's a big brouhaha over the results of searching for "jew"; to the point that Google inserts a link with an "explanation", and Sergey Brin is writing letters to the ADL.
02:07:11 <UnknownQ> yeah, i was talking about that a couple minutes ago
02:07:48 <UnknownQ> really funny stuff
02:07:54 <xover> Yeah, I only saw it in the scrollback and had to have alook at what it was all about.
02:08:56 <UnknownQ> guess what time it is?
02:09:01 <UnknownQ> futurama time!!!
02:09:02 <UnknownQ> whoo!!!
02:09:06 <xover> :-)
02:10:29 <xover> Hmmm. Searching for "linux GPL" on Google returns some results that are very disturbing to me.
02:10:58 <UnknownQ> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!
02:11:10 <UnknownQ> make them go away!
02:11:21 <xover> I mean those petty peddlers of FUD from Utah are ranked fifth in the results!
02:11:29 <UnknownQ> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!
02:11:35 <Ash> hey now
02:11:37 <Ash> it's not utah's fault
02:11:38 <xover> And there's no personalized note from Sergey there to reassure me that it's not intentional!
02:11:44 <xover> Sorry Ash. :-)
02:11:54 <UnknownQ> what about the mormons?
02:11:57 <Ash> * utah stabs xover for even making a link
02:12:23 <xover> s/from Utah/who are presently squatting in the otherwise wonderfull state of Utah/
02:12:24 <Ash> what about them?
02:13:03 <Ash> unknownq
02:13:19 <UnknownQ> ok, nevermind... decided not to make a religious joke because it's one of the few religions i'm not involved in/descended from
02:13:28 <Ash> heh heh
02:13:31 <UnknownQ> so i would just be a jerk
02:13:51 <UnknownQ> and plus Ash is sounding like he's a mormon, and he could kick my as--butt...
02:13:59 <Ash> heh heh
02:14:04 <xover> * xover feels absolutely no compunctions about makeing jokes about any and all religions...
02:14:21 <Ash> well, I don't care about mormon jokes, but i resent any link between sco and mormons
02:14:23 <UnknownQ> even when talking about utah?
02:14:24 <Ash> heh
02:14:34 <UnknownQ> so are you a mormon?
02:14:37 <Ash> yep
02:14:52 <UnknownQ> mental note to self: no mormon jokes
02:15:13 <UnknownQ> we will have to talk theology later on (i'm a baptist)...
02:15:14 <xover> * xover makes mental note to self; Ash will probably appreciate a good mormon joke better than most...
02:15:53 <UnknownQ> i actually don't think i know Ash very well...
02:16:26 <UnknownQ> Ash, have i talked to you (much) before?
02:16:31 <Ash> I don't think so
02:16:43 <Ash> :)
02:16:44 <Ash> hehe
02:16:55 <UnknownQ> see! so i don't know if he's all sensative or not...
02:17:15 <UnknownQ> i've offended many people in my day
02:18:07 <Ash> i'm not sensitive
02:18:15 <Ash> * Ash old school ircer
02:18:30 <Ash> plus i'm a bofh
02:18:37 <UnknownQ> heh... i'm gonna tell the ladies that you aren't sensitive!
02:18:42 <UnknownQ> then what?
02:18:53 <UnknownQ> no ladies for you!
02:19:07 <Ash> sensitive on irc, that is
02:19:09 <Ash> flame proof
02:19:31 <Ash> also, i'm married and have kids, so i don't care what you tell the ladies :D
02:19:43 <xover> Women spent the 1990s making men sensitive wimps; they'll be busy the next decade complaining that there aren't any straight men out there...
02:20:13 <UnknownQ> heh, good call xover...
02:20:38 <Ash> heh
02:21:10 <UnknownQ> anybody want to loan/give me three grand?
02:21:27 <xover> Sure. Hang on while I get out my pggy bank...
02:21:37 <UnknownQ> i want a kick as--butt powerbook
02:22:34 <xover> "kickAshsButt powerbook"?
02:23:03 <UnknownQ> that will make me look sensitive, but manly at the same time! however i will also be impotent from all the spooky "computer-rays" being pumped into my lap...
02:23:41 <xover> Hey, don't even kid about that!
02:24:07 <UnknownQ> luckily Ash has already produced offspring...
02:24:15 <UnknownQ> the geek line goes on!
02:24:19 <xover> The original TiBook had a problem in European versions; when the power was pluggen in it would give you an electric shock through the chassis!
02:24:32 <UnknownQ> crap... that sucks
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02:24:39 <Ash> i get shocks from my ibook on occasion
02:24:46 <Ash> but not from this monster dell that i just got from work
02:24:52 <xover> Putting that thing on your lap is seriously begging to get sterile.
02:24:57 <Ash> what thing
02:24:59 <Ash> dell?
02:24:59 <Ash> heh
02:25:14 <xover> The TiBook... Well, or the Dell I suppose, but for different reasons. :-)
02:25:46 <UnknownQ> anybody wanna loan me 4.5k? (i added all the fancy trimmings, including an ipod)
02:26:20 <xover> The radioactive radiation from the pureevilonium of Microsoft is bound to but a put a dent in your sperm count.
02:26:54 <UnknownQ> yup... that would kill ya
02:27:04 <UnknownQ> any laptops linux friendly?
02:27:17 <Ash> I don't use free unixes on laptops
02:27:28 <Ash> if you have an x86 laptop, you run windows xp
02:27:33 <UnknownQ> just captured unixes?
02:27:40 <Ash> even though it sucks, it's better than using linux
02:27:50 <UnknownQ> my one friend actually used to run linux on his laptop...
02:27:58 <Ash> i just have a native partition set aside for freebsd and boot it while windows is up and running
02:28:11 <UnknownQ> whoa! now you are offending my back up religion (linux)!
02:28:24 <xover> Well, the Dell is pretty nice except for two issues; 1) the wireless down't have OSS drivers, and 2) it's ACPI only so powermanagement don't work too well under Linux.
02:28:27 <UnknownQ> actually it's more just like anti-microsoft religion
02:28:42 <Ash> luckily freebsd's ACPI seems fine
02:28:45 <Ash> basically i dualboot
02:28:53 <Ash> but i am also doing lots of weird security stuff so i need windows
02:29:08 <UnknownQ> security stuff... windows...
02:29:12 <UnknownQ> are you crazy???
02:29:28 <Ash> erm.
02:29:43 <Ash> as in 'disassembling windows code'
02:29:51 <UnknownQ> that sounds like a loony "erm."
02:29:59 <Ash> and such
02:30:06 <xover> Give it a couple of months and get a Centrino model; that should give both Centrino wireless drivers and ACPI time to mature in Linux.
02:30:10 <Ash> basically I get windows and freebsd at the same time on one machine
02:30:15 <Ash> so it's perfect
02:30:33 <UnknownQ> hmm...
02:30:46 <UnknownQ> i should run freebsd
02:30:47 <UnknownQ> but i don't
02:30:50 <Ash> well
02:30:51 <Ash> yeah
02:30:54 <Ash> because linux sucks
02:31:01 <Ash> :-D
02:31:05 <UnknownQ> i'll kill you! with this stick!
02:31:09 <Ash> uh huh
02:31:22 <UnknownQ> wish i had a stick...
02:31:27 <xover> * xover read that as "I'll kill you! With this schtick!"... :-)
02:32:06 <UnknownQ> wish i had a schtick...
02:33:06 <xover> Hmmm. You looked at OpenBSD lately Ash?
02:33:19 <Ash> xover: every time i install OpenBSD i want to stab an openbsd developer
02:33:19 <UnknownQ> hey, who's playing with inferno? (plan 9's succesor)
02:33:35 <xover> Right. About as expected then. :-(
02:33:38 <Ash> not to say that it's bad
02:33:43 <Ash> it's just that it's irritating
02:33:46 <Ash> nice stuff comes from openbsd
02:33:48 <Ash> (pf comes to mind)
02:34:17 <xover> * xover wants the security of OpenBSD, without the OpenBSD...
02:34:35 <Ash> OpenBSD isn't *that* much more secure than FreeBSD
02:34:40 <xover> I *like* Theo's attitude towards security....
02:34:46 <Ash> especially since FreeBSD has added some of the nice TrustedBSD features
02:34:53 <Ash> ACL's, securelevel, etc
02:35:36 <xover> * xover is currently suffering through Red Hat's adoption of SELinux in Fedora Core....
02:35:43 <Ash> ouch
02:35:49 <xover> ...and it ain't a pretty sight I can tell you right now.
02:35:49 <Ash> suffering through fedora core is more like it
02:35:55 <Ash> all the linux distros totally suck unfortunately
02:36:31 <UnknownQ> * UnknownQ wonders why he's running linux
02:36:36 <xover> No, I'm basically in love with Fedora other than the bits that are currently broken.
02:36:59 <Ash> their whole process is just broken
02:37:04 <xover> yes
02:37:12 <Ash> i mean, all linux distros have that issue
02:37:20 <Ash> totally bizarre
02:37:25 <UnknownQ> process?
02:37:38 <xover> Hmmm. No. I don't ... yeah, what UnknownQ said. :-)
02:38:32 <d8uv> Yeah. I can't tell the difference between the unices.
02:38:52 <xover> "All you guys look the same to me"
02:39:09 <UnknownQ> you people sounds better/worse
02:39:21 <xover> Ash? The "process"?
02:39:26 <Ash> development process
02:39:38 <xover> EXPN?
02:40:40 <Ash> the way the OS is developed
02:41:06 <Ash> FreeBSD has had a very consistent development process forever
02:41:15 <Ash> whereas all the linux distros are still trying to figure things out it seems
02:41:25 <Ash> so freebsd releases tend to be higher quality and cause much less disruption
02:41:43 <Ash> anyway can't discuss further, busy
02:41:43 <Ash> brb
02:41:55 <xover> Bah! Cop-out! :-)
02:42:23 <Ash> i wish, i'm sick of dealing with this crap
02:42:24 <Ash> in fact
02:42:26 <Ash> IT'S LINUX CRAP
02:42:27 <Ash> ARGH
02:42:40 <Ash> http://imagestream.com/ <- their stuff
02:42:44 <Ash> back in a while
02:42:47 <Ash> iconifying you lot
02:43:05 <xover> * xover enjoys beeing an Icon...
02:44:02 <d8uv> Hmm...
02:44:02 <d8uv> http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html
02:45:17 <xover> I think ole Murray needs to check his facts.
02:46:30 <d8uv> Yeah, it seems really outdated
02:46:37 <xover> Heh. It talks about the Linux kernel in the future tense. :-)
02:47:04 <xover> Uhm. "...about the Linux *2.4* kernel..." even...
02:48:58 <d8uv> Also: http://lists.isb.sdnpk.org/pipermail/plug-list/2001-June/000078.html
02:54:33 <thelsdj> FUCK
02:55:21 <d8uv> Yes, thelsdj?
02:55:59 <thelsdj> nothing, just needed to say that, i feel better now
02:59:34 <d8uv> Whoohoo! I love e-mail!
02:59:34 <d8uv> [[[
02:59:36 <d8uv> My name is Jen and I'm new to this dating thing. I've checked out your profile you put up and it's interesting. =) I just want to get to know you a little better if you don't mind, come check my profile out at:
02:59:36 <d8uv> www.livejen.com/chat.html
02:59:37 <d8uv> I also got a webcam so we can make it interesting, anyways hope you get back to me.
02:59:39 <d8uv> bye :)
02:59:41 <d8uv> ]]]
03:00:02 <d8uv> I AM 2 GO GTE FRESH WID DA LADYS
03:02:38 <d8uv> Hmm, perhaps it was Margarito Floyd who set me up.
03:02:38 <d8uv> [[[
03:02:47 <d8uv> Are you interested in finding a woman that is interested in sex? Sick of going out with these women who think that sex is only for marriage? I'm with you!
03:02:47 <d8uv>
03:02:47 <d8uv> Over the past three years, we have matched hundreds of thousands of people around the WORLD together! Who can we match you with?
03:02:48 <d8uv> ]]]
03:02:54 <d8uv> THANK YOU MYSTERY WOMAN!
03:05:54 <xover> IBM's Memorandum in Opposition to SCO's Motion to Amend the Scheduling Order (The Gloves Come Off!): http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040518130243366
03:05:55 <swhacker> posted 348
03:06:48 <xover> 348: «[IBM] is salivating to get to trial[…]»
03:11:15 <Ash> hi, yawn
03:11:17 <Ash> oh goodness.
03:11:20 <Ash> please die groklaw
03:11:23 <Ash> i hate damn paralegals
03:11:48 <Ash> and i hate that people are still even paying attention to this sco thing
03:11:50 <Ash> heh heh
03:11:53 <Ash> have i already had this rant?
03:11:54 <xover> Well, if they're cute...
03:12:32 <Ash> is the groklaw person cute or something?
03:12:46 <xover> No idea.
03:13:19 <xover> Come to think of it I'm not even sure it's a girl.
03:13:37 <Ash> it is a girl, iirc
03:14:19 <xover> Right. Pamela Jones. PJ.
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04:08:55 <xover> Book Premise: [[[
04:09:01 <xover> The Future. The Human Apotheosis to a state where consciousness exists as an information construct in “cyberspace” has ocurred.
04:10:28 <xover> Humanity has existed solely as virtual beeings for a (subjectively) long time. A former corporeal existence is barely even an obscure myth.
04:11:30 <xover> What religeous creation theories will crop up? What will the Creationism vs. Evolutionist debates be?
04:12:36 <xover> Given a single or a few main religeons (the equivalents of Judeo-Christian, Muslem, etc.); what will they look like? What will their Holy Books be?
04:12:39 <xover> ]]]
04:13:15 <xover> I'll expect an outline and two sample chapters on my desk by Monday. :-)
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07:12:51 <kandinski> help with English appreciated from a native Brit speaker
07:13:08 <kandinski> which one is the right email answer to "> let me know"
07:13:13 <kandinski> "I just did"
07:13:15 <kandinski> or
07:13:21 <kandinski> "I just have"
07:13:23 <kandinski> ??
07:14:43 <xover> Neither. The correct response is «Learn to fucking read you dipshit. Now FOAD!». :-)
07:21:32 <xover> (But note that if this is to your boss and gets you fired, or your girlfriend and gets you dumped, I take zero responsibility!) :-)
07:22:12 <kandinski> and you are a native Brit speaker since Norway was incorporated into Britain when?
07:22:46 <xover> Exactly. IANAL, and neither am I a Native British Speaker.
07:24:57 <kandinski> but you really are very ANAL, as shown by the photographs i just downloaded from your computer
07:28:52 <xover> Drunken typing again? At this time of day?
07:29:06 <kandinski> not quite
07:29:11 <kandinski> sleep-drunk, at any rate
07:29:21 <xover> * xover knows the feeling...
07:29:29 <kandinski> I have been averaging 4 hours sleep for the last two weeks
07:29:37 <kandinski> I am guttered and knacked
07:29:48 <kandinski> and I still have a couple more weeks to go at this clip
07:30:37 <xover> Ugh!
07:32:05 <xover> * xover wonders what this enforced insomnia is due to, but won't ask as he has to leave for work and can't stick around to hear the answer...
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09:44:41 <Monty> hi bjoern_
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10:33:51 <Talliesin> *** Talliesin has changed the topic to: Monty ate my homework
11:05:11 <kandinski> .seen jillzilla
11:05:12 <xena> jillzilla seen in #swhack saying: [ [off] heh ] ~ 12 hr(s) 17 min(s) 35 sec(s) ago
11:05:46 <kandinski> monty, tell jillzilla to contact kandinski about something work-related, please
11:05:47 <Monty> kandinski: Okay, I'll tell jillzilla that next time I see them...
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11:21:19 <Talliesin> :(
11:21:27 <Talliesin> Not managing to keep connected.
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11:59:58 <Monty> hi evangineer
12:04:54 <Talliesin> More installing...
12:04:59 <Talliesin> Nothing to do but talk to Monty.
12:05:01 <Monty> prefers Rupert Murdoch!
12:05:16 <Talliesin> Oh, I'd have some choice things to say to him alright.
12:05:35 <Talliesin> But Monty has fewer bodyguards.
12:05:36 <Monty> Right...
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12:08:33 <Talliesin> Even monty has little to say today.
12:08:36 <Monty> I reckon man + oesophagus = anchored xtamago!
12:10:30 <Talliesin> Is monty including the oesophagus men already have?
12:10:31 <Monty> Please go on.
12:11:37 <Talliesin> *** Talliesin has changed the topic to: #swhack. The new scent for a man, or for a woman.
12:15:07 <kandinski_> Talliesin, were those your two scents on this topic?
12:16:09 <Talliesin> Hmm.
12:16:17 <Talliesin> I think I prefer Monty.
12:16:20 <Monty> I reckon roadsigns + wicks = striped Wowzers.
12:16:28 <Talliesin> Okay, maybe not.
12:16:45 <Talliesin> *** Talliesin has changed the topic to: #swhack. Welcome to the right-hand side of the bellcurve.
12:17:41 <kandinski> ah
12:17:57 <kandinski> bella curva, realmente
12:18:03 <kandinski> (for verbosus)
12:18:32 <Talliesin> What can we see out the office window today children?
12:18:47 <Talliesin> Why, we can see a bunch of yobs beating the crap out of each other.
12:19:35 <Talliesin> Jeez, the place was covered in Gardai a few minutes ago.
12:36:15 <Code_Poet> *** Code_Poet (~talliesin@213.94.193.50) has joined #swhack
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12:37:16 <Talliesin> .seen jillzilla
12:37:16 <xena> jillzilla seen in #swhack saying: [ [off] heh ] ~ 13 hr(s) 49 min(s) 40 sec(s) ago
12:37:45 <Talliesin> Bit of a security issue with xena repeating something that was [off]
12:38:16 <kandinski_> right, I didn't realise it before
12:38:33 <kandinski_> but we are lucky that she didn't repeat the bit about the pigeons
12:38:50 <Talliesin> Yes, It could have been much more compromising than "heh".
12:40:09 <kandinski_> else the sooper-famous mossad-trained google attack goons would now be taking out the geographically distributed #swhack crowd
12:41:08 <kandinski_> what do you mean they weren't famous... secret? whaddayameen secret?
12:41:13 <kandinski_> aaarrrrgghhh!!!!
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12:45:18 <Monty> lo libby
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12:59:19 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's kandinski_!
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13:23:40 <sbp> hey there inkel
13:24:08 <inkel> hi sbp
13:24:30 <libby> hey guys
13:24:37 <sbp> hey libby
13:24:46 <woundown> *** woundown (~woundown@u121n229.hfx.eastlink.ca) has joined #swhack
13:24:46 <Monty> hi woundown
13:24:54 <inkel> hi libby
13:24:58 <sbp> how's the conf?
13:25:06 <libby> good ta
13:25:17 <libby> only started keynote 5 mins ago... :)
13:25:29 <sbp> oh, you're in it now? who's giving it?
13:28:05 <kandinski> hey
13:28:13 <sbp> hi kandinski
13:28:48 <libby> timbl
13:28:55 <libby> http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0519-tbl-keynote/all
13:28:59 <sbp> ta!
13:30:41 <libby> chatting in #www2004 if interested
13:31:48 <sbp> nice list under "Semantic web is for connecting things"
13:35:18 <kandinski> yes! interested!
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13:42:08 <kandinski> heh, this is going to come in so handy for my "why free software people should be paying more attention to this Semantic Web thing" presentation
13:49:26 <kandinski> and the style of taking notes publically, on the net, live, with people giving commentary, both from the room and without, is amazing
13:50:15 <kandinski> * kandinski didn't leave the house much till recently, and is easily amazed^H^H^H^Hused -- errr both.
13:52:40 <sbp> yeah, though it's still easy to feel left out
13:52:52 <sbp> all of the corridor chats that you miss out on, etc.
13:53:11 <sbp> IRC commentary is still far better than nowt, of course
13:54:23 <kandinski> well, depends on where you start from
13:54:28 <kandinski> I feel incredibly included
13:54:46 <kandinski> I would have to be very deep in for this to feel "being left out"
13:55:01 <kandinski> as we used to say: "compared to what?"
13:55:03 <sbp> which is rather ironic
13:55:25 <kandinski> paradoxical, even
13:55:32 <sbp> but true, I've always felt more included than excluded
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13:56:07 <kandinski> well, gotta go to my class that I didn't prepare
13:56:15 <kandinski> this is going to be interesting-- again
13:56:18 <sbp> and I'm not saying that by not attending conferences, one is excluded per se: it's that one misses out on lots of opportunies, and there's also a tendency to get overlooked in various thing. information spreading by word o' mouth
13:56:24 <sbp> heh. enjoy!
13:56:30 <kandinski> ah, and the airlines found my bag! I will receive it tomorrow. woot!
13:56:34 <sbp> oh great!
13:56:45 <kandinski> hope all my birthday presents are still there <hmmmm>
13:57:02 <sbp> and all that lingerie
13:57:14 <sbp> actually, that's probably the best way to protect your other stuff
13:57:21 <sbp> bung lots of lingerie in there
13:57:22 <kandinski> hey, those *were* my presents
13:57:28 <sbp> heheh
13:57:32 <kandinski> although that is an idea
13:57:43 <kandinski> lingerie-filled laptop bags for nerds
13:57:47 <sbp> yes, I should patent that method
13:57:50 <sbp> no. mine!
13:57:59 <kandinski> victoria secret brand laptop diapers
13:58:01 <kandinski> you can have it
13:58:04 <sbp> heh!
13:58:16 <kandinski> I was going to say, before I leave for good
13:58:16 <sbp> with Bob Dylan doing the ads
13:58:40 <kandinski> that what you just said about word o'mouth would be one of the main criticisms of the semweb
13:59:04 <kandinski> what do you do with all the implicit communication?
13:59:14 <sbp> even lots of Semantic Web developers can't keep track...
13:59:15 <hamm__> sbp is your gmail space a terabyte?
13:59:17 <kandinski> the "by the ways"?
14:01:36 <sbp> <sbp> kandinski: not sure I get the argument against. if you're communicating via computer, it's all encoded somewhere
14:01:39 <sbp> <sbp> hamm__: it's not, no
14:01:41 <sbp> * Disconnected
14:02:22 <hamm__> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/ecommerce/0,39020372,39155158,00.htm
14:02:36 <sbp> Call me, Nigerian minister says (great!): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3725283.stm
14:02:36 <swhacker> posted 349
14:03:37 <sbp> odd. I'm feeling rather left out :-)
14:03:54 <hamm__> lol
14:04:04 <hamm__> maybe it's an error....
14:04:25 <sbp> I think so
14:04:57 <sbp> 1GB costs $2 per user, doesn't it? so 1000GB would be $2000
14:05:10 <sbp> which would be a little difficult to recoup in advertising
14:05:29 <deltab> only if used
14:05:57 <sbp> well, I wonder if that figure includes backups too. but yeah
14:06:24 <sbp> is anyone seriously ever going to use a TB of space for email?
14:06:33 <deltab> I have under 100 GB total
14:06:48 <sbp> total email? I should hope so!
14:07:05 <sbp> or total data? mine's up around... er, not sure actually
14:07:48 <sbp> gotta repurpose the line for a bit
14:11:47 <d8uv> Morning!
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14:13:08 <d8uv> kandinski, hamm, sbp, deltab, and deusx, Hello!
14:13:24 <deusx> Yo yo
14:14:48 <hamm__> i'm out of here
14:15:00 <d8uv> Seeya!
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14:19:02 <deltab> total digital
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15:01:39 <Talliesin> Connections just don't seem to be staying.
15:02:33 <Talliesin> * Talliesin is pinging himself every 10 secs, which seems to be holding the connection open.
15:05:58 <Ash> good morning
15:06:01 <Ash> clownshoes
15:08:33 <Talliesin> Ah yes, the circus version of "Good Morning Sunshine".
15:13:18 <Talliesin> It only now occurs to me that bell curve isn't a single word.
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15:41:42 <jcowan> *** jcowan has changed the topic to: #swhack. Welcome to the right-hand side of the bellcurve (the one for irrelevance, d.h.)
15:42:42 <xover> This is what they mean by "Over the hill", huh?
15:44:19 <Ash> so how are you nutters doing this morning
15:44:34 <xover> MMMm. Nuts...
15:54:10 <xover> Well, it was good knowing you all. Have fun in the afterlife.
15:54:51 <xover> The World Endeth Today (Rejoice!): http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.www2004.org/
15:54:52 <swhacker> posted 350
15:55:18 <Ash> yeah the world's ending
15:55:21 <Ash> thanks for noticing
15:56:13 <xover> 350: After thirteen years, WWW2004, the Conference of Record for the World Wide Web and the W3C, has finally managed to use Valid HTML on their website!
15:56:26 <sbp> 350:Aaargh, it validates?! Quick! DoS it!
15:56:54 <xover> 350: It's crappy table-layout HTML, but still... It does actually Validate as HTML 4.01 Transitional...
15:57:34 <sbp> 350:Now let me direct the page authors to the WAI specifications, and some general design sense. Kudos, though, for this excellent first step!
15:58:16 <Ash> 350: thus proving that you are all nitpicky motherfuckers
15:58:23 <Ash> kekeke
15:58:31 <xover> 350: Since this new-fangled HTML 4 thing was only made a standard in 1998, six years ago, by some weird industry consortium that nobody's even heard of, I'd say that's pretty good.
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16:50:49 <Talliesin> Impressive.
16:51:10 <Talliesin> Google placed an "adopt a badger" ad on badgerbadgerbadger.com
16:51:37 <Talliesin> Which may well have been the first time the alternate_ad_color wasn't used.
16:51:39 <JibberJim> hmm...
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16:56:53 <Talliesin> I continue to be impressed by how well they work with so little context.
16:57:18 <Talliesin> The adverts for diapers that were once on Tim Bray's blog aside.
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18:16:26 <Morbus> nutshell: girl emails me looking for britney spears video I have.
18:16:34 <Morbus> said girl wants said video to study britney's moves.
18:16:44 <Morbus> normally, I trade files, so I asked for a video of her doing britney's moves.
18:16:46 <Morbus> she agreed.
18:16:48 <Morbus> [[[
18:16:48 <Morbus> [14:15] <Morbus> i found the girl who wants the video.
18:16:48 <Morbus> [14:15] <Morbus> 12http://profiles.yahoo.com/gypsysamadhi 01
18:16:48 <Morbus> [14:15] <Morbus> same email and everything.
18:16:48 <Morbus> [14:15] <imajes> hum
18:16:49 <Morbus> [14:15] <imajes> i could download the shipping news
18:16:51 <Morbus> [14:15] <imajes> that's a great book
18:16:53 <Morbus> [14:16] <Morbus> OHMYGOD ITS CHRISTINA
18:16:55 <Morbus> [14:16] <Morbus> CHRISTINA WNATS TO STEAL BRITNEYS MOVIESSSS.
18:16:57 <Morbus> ]]]
18:17:46 <sbp> and she lives in MO
18:17:55 <Morbus> man alive.
18:17:56 <sbp> The Collectors' Dilemma
18:18:00 <Morbus> i know what you mean about firefox, sbp.
18:18:03 <Morbus> mine's been acting fucked up.
18:18:08 <Morbus> it froze on her first cool site.
18:18:46 <sbp> it is a little screwy; it's the form field freezing bug that was most disconcerting for me. occasionally it'll crash for no apparent reason too, but that's thankfully rare
18:19:07 <Morbus> yweah, i've had that bug too.
18:19:16 <Morbus> the first time you submit something, it takes a long ass time.
18:19:19 <sbp> form freezing? did you fix it?
18:19:27 <Morbus> nope. goes away after i wait the first time.
18:19:34 <sbp> aye. I fixed mine by deleting (moving) the data files
18:19:39 <Morbus> which data files?
18:19:55 <sbp> hmm. it gets progressively worse for me: it was pegging the CPU at 100% for minutes at a time
18:20:05 <sbp> the data files in your local profile that store all the form data
18:20:36 <sbp> but that's like clearing your history it--you have to start remembering your passwords again. argh!
18:20:41 <sbp> s/it/out/
18:20:46 <jcowan> The cure for that is to stay away from sites that are dubious in more ways that one. One is all you get.
18:21:19 <sbp> dubious by having lots of scary form entry fields on them?
18:21:31 <Morbus> sbp: that's ridiculous. i just installed firefox like, two weeks ago.
18:21:36 <Morbus> the crap is corrupted already? fuck?!
18:21:41 <sbp> (and hi jcowan!)
18:22:04 <Morbus> huh.
18:22:08 <Morbus> this chick is a belly dancer: http://bellydance.meetup.com/members/226
18:22:10 <sbp> oh, two weeks? no I'd had mine for months, and the data files were huge. I suspect that they were corrupt
18:22:17 <Morbus> her nick is listed here, and it's MO.
18:22:35 <Morbus> and she's got some damn icon that i can't maximize, but i want to.
18:22:39 <Morbus> * Morbus signs up for meetup account.
18:22:40 <sbp> hence my saying "<sbp> and she lives in MO"
18:22:55 <sbp> the "<sbp> The Collectors' Dilemma" line was a bit more obtuse...
18:23:00 <sbp> .g Prisoners' Dilemma
18:23:01 <phenny> Prisoners' Dilemma: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PRISDIL.html
18:24:15 <Morbus> goddamit.
18:24:21 <Morbus> meetup won't let you get user profiles.
18:24:29 <sbp> hmm. actually I was thinking of this: http://web.archive.org/web/20010529034922/http://www.kitsite.com/~robin/ou-x-po/talk/prisoner.html
18:25:29 <Morbus> google sucks.
18:25:31 <Morbus> only two results.
18:25:50 <sbp> (the restriction is that you can't use any characters with ascenders or descenders)
18:27:18 <hamm_> *** hamm_ (~chatzilla@213-78-32-37.uk.onetel.net.uk) has joined #swhack
18:27:22 <sbp> heavy duty lipogrammation. remind me to tell kandinski about it
18:27:29 <sbp> actually, I can't rely on you
18:27:50 <sbp> Monty, tell kandinski check out http://web.archive.org/web/20010529034922/http://www.kitsite.com/~robin/ou-x-po/talk/prisoner.html (the restriction is that you can't use any characters with ascenders or descenders)
18:27:50 <Monty> sbp: Okay, I'll tell kandinski that next time I see them...
18:27:56 <Morbus> sbp: http://img.meetup.com/member/2/7/5/9/87701.jpeg
18:29:07 <sbp> ah. so that's what Missourians look like
18:29:40 <Morbus> i say they look pretty good.
18:30:13 <sbp> thing is, if you say "Missoura" like plenty of Missourians do, then it'd be "Missoura-ians" which is silly, so you'd have to say "Missour-ians", but that only comes up with sub-100 results
18:31:57 <Morbus> sbp, see this? http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1594915,00.asp
18:31:58 <Morbus> probably.
18:33:29 <sbp> hmm. possible infamous-Utahian-company link?
18:35:16 <sbp> heh: [[[
18:35:16 <sbp> But the appearance of the "1000000 MB" ticker at the bottom of their Gmail inboxes was no more than a system bug that Google Inc. is working to fix, the company confirmed Wednesday.
18:35:16 <sbp> "That in fact was a bug," spokesman Nathan Tyler said. "We're working to fix it. Gmail offers users 1 gigabyte of storage."
18:35:16 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1595531,00.asp
18:35:55 <deltab> maybe it was a cunning publicity ploy
18:36:03 <jcowan> Ah, sbp! We meet at last. (Please don't tell me I'm a silly Unicode knigget, I doubt I could bear it today.)
18:37:06 <sbp> hmm
18:37:08 <sbp> .ety nidget
18:37:11 <phenny> nidget: [Written also {nigget}, {nigeot}.] [Cf. F.
18:37:11 <phenny> nigaud a boody, fool, OF. niger to play the fool.]
18:37:13 <jcowan> Dubious, as in probably containing all sorts of hacky HTML, form or otherwise; also as in of dubious worth as a web site even if it worked.
18:38:02 <sbp> and indeed; pleased to meet you finally! you we've probably crossed paths on mailing lists in the distant past. I'm glad Jon invited you in, and I hope you're enjoying the rather... eclectic mix so far
18:38:18 <jcowan> It's a very interesting place.
18:38:50 <sbp> I'm still more inclined to think that the form data was corrupt since it was going wrong on Aaron and mnot's site--two people I think woul dhardly be inclined to produce messy HTML
18:39:01 <jcowan> I believe those who say Mizoora are called Mizoorans.
18:39:12 <sbp> heh, heh
18:39:16 <sbp> .gc mizoorans
18:39:17 <xena> no results found.
18:39:18 <jcowan> Fair enough.
18:39:23 <jeremiah> *** jeremiah (~chatzilla@ip68-228-138-252.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack
18:39:36 <jcowan> As in the local pronunciation of "Missouri".
18:39:54 <sbp> though some do pronounce it with the -ri
18:40:13 <jeremiah> hi
18:40:14 <jcowan> Sure, and some people from Louisiana probably say the state's name with four syllables.
18:40:16 <sbp> it's the American version of Shrewsbury
18:40:28 <sbp> well, let's not go that far!
18:40:30 <sbp> hey there jeremiah
18:40:44 <jcowan> Ohhhh no. Oh no. How is Shrewsbury pronounced, then? [subi]?
18:41:31 <sbp> it's a disputed pronunciation: [[[
18:41:32 <sbp> <sbp> hehe. I'm cruel sometimes
18:41:32 <sbp> <sbp> 1) take a word from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_words_of_disputed_pronunciation [1]
18:41:32 <sbp> <sbp> 2) shout out to the rest of the household "is it X or Y?"
18:41:32 <sbp> <sbp> 3) chuckle as lots of confused and conflicting answers come back, and argument ensues
18:41:40 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.kingprimate.com/weblog/archives/2004_03_20.html#12:23PM
18:42:16 <sbp> (taken from jeramiah's weblog: since he just joined, I thought I'd try to get a jeremiah theme going)
18:42:36 <jeremiah> haha
18:43:12 <sbp> the first syllable is either as in "shrew" the animal, or the initial part of "shrove"
18:43:15 <jeremiah> i am reading about topology, and the more i think "wow, topology is sort of absurd" the more I like it
18:43:39 <sbp> jcowan: incidentally, do you have a summary of the ASCII IPA you've been using?
18:43:45 <jcowan> Ah. If you can still tell the difference between a doughnut and a coffee cup, you haven't mastered
18:43:47 <jcowan> topology yet.
18:44:27 <jeremiah> i wonder how topologists handle that joke
18:44:56 <Morbus> JELWO.
18:45:08 <jcowan> They perform a discontinuous transformation on the jokester.
18:45:10 <sbp> * sbp suspects that they laugh long and hard, and then try to tip the contents of a doughnut into their mouths
18:45:57 <Morbus> [[[
18:45:58 <Morbus> 10[14:41] *** Misafir4470871 (~caylak@62.248.16.169) has joined channel #apache
18:45:58 <Morbus> [14:41] <Misafir4470871> hi
18:45:58 <Morbus> [14:41] <fajita> hola, Misafir4470871
18:45:58 <Morbus> [14:41] <@Morbus> JE:WP MISASF.!
18:46:08 <Morbus> [14:42] <Misafir4470871> i added password protection for my directory
18:46:08 <Morbus> [14:42] <@Morbus> YAY!
18:46:08 <Morbus> [14:42] <Misafir4470871> but how will i make crypted password ?
18:46:17 <Morbus> [14:42] <@Morbus> htpasswd
18:46:17 <Morbus> [14:42] <fajita> htpasswd is 12http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/programs/htpasswd.html 01 or A utility for creating password files for 01use with Basic authentication.
18:46:24 <Morbus> [14:45] <Misafir4470871> M07orb01us thanks :-)
18:46:24 <Morbus> [14:45] <@Morbus> NO PROBSELEM. WULL YOU MY BE FRIEND!?!!
18:46:25 <Morbus> ]]]
18:46:33 <jeremiah> so what big has happened in the channel? i would read backlogs but... i don't want to burn 3 days
18:46:50 <Morbus> jeremiah: i've been fiddling with drupal far too much.
18:46:52 <sbp> I really need to have words with DrBacchus...
18:47:04 <Morbus> why?
18:47:07 <jeremiah> drupal being that PHP CMS?
18:47:08 <jcowan> The IPA transcription I'm using is called CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA), documented at http://www.theiling.de/ipa .
18:47:14 <Morbus> jeremiah: yeah. its very, very, good, IMO.
18:47:21 <Morbus> nice api, strong features.
18:47:21 <jeremiah> huh
18:47:24 <Morbus> developers are pricks.
18:47:24 <sbp> the biggest thing is... well, how long have you been away? jcowan and Talliesin coming in was quite a coup
18:47:27 <AaronSw> *** AaronSw (~Snak@c-24-13-224-74.client.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
18:47:31 <jcowan> It's closely related to the X-SAMPA of John Wells (yes, *the* John Wells)
18:47:32 <Morbus> sbp: why you need tlak with drb?
18:47:42 <jeremiah> i don't think i've been around for a good month
18:47:45 <jeremiah> with exams and whatnot
18:47:49 <Morbus> oh, right, hey jcowan. i'm morbus.
18:47:56 <sbp> Morbus: just to see what possessed him to make you a chanop in #apache!
18:48:05 <jcowan> morbus: so I see.
18:48:20 <sbp> jcowan: thanks! trying to load it in Firefox, but, good timing, it's frozen
18:48:22 <jeremiah> is tav's work on the plex any further along?
18:48:24 <Morbus> sbp: it was a community decision! ahahahah <g>
18:48:26 <sbp> * sbp waves to AaronSw
18:48:28 <jeremiah> i found his .plan but didn't find anything else
18:48:29 <Morbus> i coup'd everyone, not just one man! ;)
18:48:42 <jcowan> This is 0.8? I have had no trouble with that release.
18:48:52 <sbp> Morbus: I refuse to believe that any community could be warped enough to put you in charge
18:48:57 <sbp> 0.8, aye
18:48:58 <jcowan> My .plan says: "A mighty maze, but not without a plan."
18:49:00 <Morbus> * Morbus beams proudly.
18:49:29 <jeremiah> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Topology.html
18:49:56 <jeremiah> look at the diagrams showing different shapes as squares made of directed vectors, really sort of amazing that they can represent things like that
18:50:00 <jcowan> The CXS-ified IPA chart is also available at http://conlang.eusebeia.dyndns.org/ipa/cxschart.png .
18:50:23 <jcowan> Yeah, it really is. jeremiah: are you interested in chess at all?
18:50:36 <Morbus> [14:49] <Misafir4470871> :-))
18:50:36 <Morbus> [14:49] <Misafir4470871> M07orb01us, all server need a thing like you :P
18:50:43 <jeremiah> Morbus: i once used drupal but haven't in a long time, liked it iirc
18:50:52 <jeremiah> jcowan: yes, haven't played in a while though
18:50:56 <Morbus> jeremiah: when i last checked drupal, years ago, it wa nothing more than a niuke clone.
18:51:14 <Morbus> its insanely better now. i've nothing to complain about yet (well, there is a URL design issue, but nothing i can;t fix with effort).
18:51:18 <jcowan> there are interesting chess variants played on different board topologies.
18:51:44 <jeremiah> the standard way to setup a website at my school seems to be to use phpnuke, i have so far found maybe 10 websites setup on phpnuke
18:52:04 <jcowan> For example, on a vertical cylinder (identify the left and right edges), a bishop can disappear off the left (apparent) edge and reappear on the (apparent) other side of the board.
18:52:22 <sbp> Serebriakoff once wrote a good piece about five dimensional tic-tac-toe which could warp your mind somewhat
18:52:23 <jeremiah> oh so you use the same board
18:52:25 <jeremiah> woah
18:52:46 <jcowan> You can also identify the top and bottom edges (as seen on a page, that is), or even both sets of edges, which makes it a torus.
18:53:06 <jeremiah> as an aside, whenever i mention that i'm taking physics now girls, girls specifically, start talking about tessaracts
18:53:22 <jcowan> Probably been reading _A Wrinkle In Time_.
18:53:30 <jeremiah> yeah they were
18:53:44 <jcowan> However, on a horizontal cylinder or a torus, the standard setup is illegal, because the two kings are on adjacent squares.
18:54:14 <jcowan> Is your head wrapped around this yet? :-)
18:54:34 <jeremiah> i can't tell if it's my head or a basketball
18:54:58 <jeremiah> i wonder which holes in my head actually qualify as holes
18:54:59 <jcowan> It's all the same. We just deform the inflation valve until it's the size of your mouth.
18:55:25 <jcowan> Well, it depends on where you think your head stops, but I'd say the mouth and nose make two, so it's a 2-genus object.
18:55:38 <sbp> hmm. it'd be nice to see more topologically bizarre programming languages: befunge programs' pointer spaces are always toroidal
18:55:41 <jcowan> Your body as a whole has only one hole.
18:56:17 <jcowan> Well, an obvious tactic is to identify the left bottom with the right top and vice versa, which is programming on a moebius strip.
18:56:45 <jcowan> If you identify both pairs of edges in this wraparound fashion, you have a Klein bottle (for sale: inquire within)
18:56:52 <jeremiah> why would you want to program on surface?
18:57:03 <jcowan> Spreadsheet programmers and life hackers do.
18:57:09 <jcowan> s/life/Life
18:57:11 <sbp> I could never wrap my head around Klein bottles' descriptions
18:57:38 <sbp> yeah. cellular automata are great. CL is turing complete! (everything is these days)
18:57:59 <jcowan> Well, you can see how to wrap a cylinder into a torus, right? Curl it up and join the circular edges?
18:58:06 <sbp> yes
18:58:26 <jcowan> The outside remains the outside, and the inside the inside.
18:59:07 <jcowan> To make a K bottle, just join the edges in such a way that the outside of one is the inside of the other, and vice versa. Like the twist you give a M strip before you seal it up, except in a K bottle you have to twist through 4-space instead of 3-space.
18:59:43 <sbp> that's the part where I lose it :-)
19:00:15 <sbp> I can see that if you fed one of the ends through the side of the cylinder, and then bent it back on itself you could achieve that... am I right?
19:00:51 <jcowan> Yes, except it doesn't actually self-intersect, any more than the single edge of an M-strip self intersects. But that's the way it looks in 3-space, all right.
19:00:52 <sbp> we need an SVG sketchpad
19:01:17 <Morbus> we need more ladies.
19:01:23 <sbp> okay, then that was a good description. thanks!
19:01:27 <jcowan> See the picture at http://www.kleinbottle.com , Cliff Stoll's site for selling them.
19:01:56 <jcowan> I've been called "one of the girls" on occasion.
19:02:05 <Morbus> oh yeah?
19:02:08 <sbp> Morbus: you need to stop scaring them away. I am aware of the huge gender divide in here, though, but I'd say it's just representative of Freenode and the technology sector in general
19:02:19 <Morbus> i'm not scaring them away?
19:02:24 <Morbus> i'm getting britney faux videos.
19:02:28 <Morbus> what are /you/ getting? <g>
19:02:40 <jcowan> You don't want to know about my complicated love life.
19:02:58 <sbp> heh! "Wool Klein Bottle Hats & Möbius Scarves"
19:03:08 <themaximus> *** themaximus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:03:30 <themaximus> *** themaximus (~themax@roc-24-169-188-175.rochester.rr.com) has joined #swhack
19:04:12 <sbp> oh wow: http://www.kleinbottle.com/drinking_mug_klein_bottle.htm
19:04:33 <themaximus> *** themaximus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:05:24 <jeremiah> We make the handle slightly larger than the nearly-sperical base. This makes the Question Mark Klein Bottle easy to grasp during those intimate topological moments when handles and holes are hard to discern.
19:05:46 <jcowan> *That* complicated, however, my love life is not.
19:05:57 <sbp> * sbp dreams of a day when we'll have more females, differently gendered, and ethnic minority folk than bots on the channel... sigh
19:06:19 <Morbus> more females differently gendered?
19:06:21 <robertbrook> *** robertbrook (~robert@robertbrook.demon.co.uk) has joined #swhack
19:06:22 <jcowan> Would it be to totally infra dig. to ask what each of the six bots does?
19:06:26 <Morbus> there are more than one type of female? hot damn.
19:06:28 <jcowan> s/to/too
19:06:35 <jeremiah> ohhh, i see why it has zero volume
19:06:48 <jeremiah> weird
19:07:49 <Morbus> i admit to knowing little about the klein bottle, or why i should be impressed.
19:07:51 <Morbus> sigh.
19:08:00 <sbp> jcowan: I'll try to fit it into one line. loggy: logs us publically; Monty: markov chain and reminders; phenny: sundry tasks (phenny: help? for more); supybot: sundry tasks (@help for more); swhacker: posts to our weblog ("title (description): URI" to post, all fields and whitespace mandatory); xena: misc functions (.help for more)
19:08:02 <Monty> nice api, strong features.
19:09:22 <sbp> loggy (perl) and swhacker (python) are maintained by AaronSw, Monty (java) is maintained by Jibbler, supybot (python) is maintained by jemfinch, xena (python/zope) is maintained by tav, and phenny (python) is mine
19:09:23 <jeremiah> Morbus: it's not all that amazing, i mean... the thing about math is that you study very simple things which then have properties that can be applied elsewhere, i guess klien bottles are really just interesting as special cases
19:09:25 <Monty> I firmly believe that foliage hates buffed wasps?!
19:09:29 <jcowan> sbp: Thanks. I'll wait till the channel is quiet before experimenting.
19:09:51 <sbp> hmm? #swhack gets quiet? :-)
19:11:19 <Morbus> speaking of math, A Beautiful Mind has one of the most beautiful soundtracks, IMO.
19:11:26 <jcowan> Morbus: the inside of the K bottle is continuous with its outside, just as a Moebius strip has only one side. Hence the crack about "For sale: inquire within". If a real Klein bottle could be built (which it can't), we would all already be "within" it.
19:11:57 <Morbus> why can't a real one be made?
19:12:00 <Morbus> what are these bottles then?
19:12:03 <sbp> reminds me of the asylum in HHG
19:12:05 <Morbus> and how would we be in it?
19:12:08 <Morbus> oh, i shouldn't even ask.
19:12:19 <sbp> Morbus: they can only exist in four dimensions (or more)
19:12:29 <Morbus> why?
19:12:41 <jcowan> The ones at kleinbottle.com are glass imitations.
19:12:46 <Morbus> dont these klein bottles have a continuous inside and outside?
19:12:51 <sbp> Morbus: try representing a sphere or a cube in two dimensions
19:13:06 <Morbus> should I reread Abbott?
19:13:09 <Morbus> I should reread Abbott.
19:13:50 <sbp> another hacker lore book I'm avoiding
19:14:04 <sbp> more CPG, less EAA!
19:14:05 <Morbus> why, its all gutenberg and shit.
19:14:12 <Morbus> doesn't gutenberg outweight the cliche?
19:14:17 <Morbus> or has guten become one himself? ;)
19:14:31 <jcowan> Yes. Also Burger's sequel, _Spaceland_ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0064635740)
19:14:42 <Morbus> there's a sequel to abbott's book too.
19:14:50 <Morbus> not by him.
19:14:51 <Morbus> of course.
19:15:00 <Ash> SLIME BEZIER PIZZA
19:15:09 <Morbus> flatterland, or some such nonesense.
19:15:26 <jcowan> Sorry, _Sphereland_. _Spaceland_ is more of a parody than a sequel.
19:15:26 <sbp> AS SHE HOPES
19:15:42 <jcowan> "more CPG, less EAA": excessively ambiguous.
19:15:42 <sbp> Bezier?
19:15:48 <jcowan> A type of curve.
19:16:02 <jeremiah> jcowan: so couldn't you make a one-surfaced object in n-space?
19:16:07 <Ash> yawn
19:16:23 <jcowan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezier_curve
19:16:31 <jeremiah> thanks
19:16:38 <deltab> yay bezier curves
19:16:48 <sbp> I'd've hoped that EAA would be at least possibly discernible from context, though I admit that CPG was overdoing it somewhat. Charlotte Perkins Gilman and Edwin A. Abbott
19:16:49 <jcowan> As long as n > 3.
19:17:23 <jcowan> Oh, gotcha. But what does the first A in EAA stand for (no fair using lookup tools), eh?
19:17:43 <jcowan> I've only read The Yellow Wallpaper.
19:18:57 <sbp> Bernstein polynomials: *the* Bernstein?
19:19:04 <jeremiah> you need n > 3 for the concept of a surface
19:19:31 <sbp> * sbp isn't sure of the middle A anymore than most people are aware of his own middle B...
19:19:36 <jcowan> n > 2, I think. I see lots of surfaces in the 3-space that surrounds me. But to make one-surface objects requires at least 4-space.
19:19:55 <jcowan> Abbott, believe it or not. Edwin Abbott Abbott was named after his father, Edwin Abbott.
19:20:01 <sbp> heh!
19:20:05 <jeremiah> whoops, meant >=
19:20:14 <jcowan> Ah.
19:20:22 <sbp> possibly the last thing I would've guessed
19:20:44 <jcowan> Indubitably.
19:20:58 <jeremiah> since you stop guessing once you get the right answer
19:21:07 <deltab> S. Bernstein
19:21:14 <sbp> deltab: thanks
19:22:42 <jeremiah> jcowan: now can you actually "see" the 4-space klien bottle in your head or do you just know it's properties?
19:23:13 <jcowan> jeremiah: I'm doing well if I can "see" a triangle in my head. My visualization abilities are perilously close to zero.
19:23:55 <jcowan> Hmm, idea: a first-person shooter set on (near?) a Klein bottle.
19:23:59 <sbp> it is possible generally for someone to be able to see one?
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19:24:37 <jeremiah> sbp: doubt it, pretty sure you can't visualize more than 3 dimensions
19:24:44 <jcowan> I can only deal with 4-space by reasoning, not by visualizing, and I generally advise visualizers not to try, because it will muddle them. But there undoubtedly are some people who can do it.
19:24:58 <jeremiah> hawking said he can't do it
19:25:00 <jcowan> Klein could, I bet.
19:25:22 <sbp> it'd certainly be helpful in discovering the shapes
19:25:35 <jeremiah> i imagine after a while you get used to playing with it
19:25:48 <jeremiah> and maybe you feel it more than you see it
19:26:11 <jcowan> Something like that, yes.
19:26:22 <woundown> *** woundown (~woundown@u121n229.hfx.eastlink.ca) has joined #swhack
19:26:34 <jcowan> Have you hit the bridges of Koenigsberg (now Kaliningrad) yet?
19:26:49 <jeremiah> i expect to be intimately familiar with all thing dimensional by the time i graduate
19:27:16 <sbp> now we're getting to graph theory
19:27:21 <jeremiah> or much more than I am now
19:27:37 <jeremiah> are these books about math concepts?
19:27:46 <sbp> hmm. DanC pointed to a really excellent introduction to graph theory once that dealt with the Bridges of Koenigsberg problem
19:28:41 <sbp> * sbp fails to find it
19:28:58 <jeremiah> wish i hadn't left all my books at school
19:29:10 <jeremiah> although i do have Smale's book, which i should dig back into
19:29:45 <jcowan> Dan Connolly?
19:29:55 <sbp> jcowan: yep
19:30:53 <jcowan> At least intuition serves you well there: to traverse a graph containing N nodes in one path, you have to have either zero odd nodes (it's a loop, so start anywhere) or exactly two (start at one, end at the other).
19:30:58 <sbp> argh, 403: http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/search?channel=rdfig
19:31:17 <jcowan> Of course, it helps a lot if Euler has already explained it to you.
19:31:36 <jcowan> You are in a twisty maze of little nodes, all distinct.
19:31:39 <themaximus> *** themaximus (~Max@themaximus.registered) has joined #swhack
19:31:39 <sbp> heh
19:31:40 <Monty> lo themaximus
19:33:08 <themaximus> hehe, lol.
19:33:14 <jeremiah> time to bounce outta here, seeya
19:33:21 <jcowan> Catchyalater.
19:33:27 <robertbrook> *** robertbrook has quit (Remote closed the connection)
19:34:13 <sbp> enjoy, jeremiah
19:34:15 <jcowan> You can see the BoK problem as either graph theory or topology.
19:34:29 <sbp> how as topology?
19:35:00 <jcowan> By transforming the edges into point sets.
19:36:02 <sbp> * sbp takes a look at http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Point-SetTopology.html (funny how often wolfram.com is coming up in searches like these, these days)
19:37:27 <sbp> @google fight toruses tori
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19:37:30 <supybot> sbp: 'tori': 940000, 'toruses': 1410
19:37:53 <themaximus> *** themaximus (~Max@roc-24-169-188-175.rochester.rr.com) has joined #swhack
19:37:57 <sbp> * sbp decdes that Tori Amos probably muddies the results somewhat
19:38:59 <sbp> .gc torus tori
19:39:00 <xena> torus tori: 29,900
19:39:03 <sbp> .gc torus toruses
19:39:03 <xena> torus toruses: 795
19:40:44 <jcowan> sbp: one of our common interests: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=328A39D5.61F1%40ccil.org
19:40:45 <supybot> Google Groups: alt.adjective.noun.verb.verb.verb, alt.Gettysburg.Address.address.address.address
19:41:48 <sbp> oh wow. I hadn't thought've translating classic works of literature, addresses, etc. into alt.a.n.v.v.v form before
19:41:53 <Morbus> *** Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
19:42:34 <sbp> heh: "alt.e'osai.lojban.sarji.sarji.sarji" Translation?
19:42:55 <jcowan> Recte "e'osai ko sarji la lojban" = "Please support Lojban". See http://www.lojban.org
19:44:02 <jcowan> See also early aanvvv spam aanvvv-ized at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=328B917A.73BC%40ccil.org
19:44:04 <supybot> Google Groups: alt.adjective.noun.verb.verb.verb, alt.obnoxious.spam.recoded.translated.satirized
19:44:11 <sbp> (alt.excellent.translation.like.note.incidentalize)
19:44:39 <jcowan> alt.excellent.praise.noted.appreciated.reciprocated.
19:45:24 <sbp> alt."john".adjective.questioning.wondering.musing ("alt.john.cowan.am.am.am")
19:46:56 <jcowan> I am a John-ish type of Cowan.
19:47:52 <sbp> hmm. I think Johannine is accepted in Gospel Studies for the book of John
19:47:53 <jcowan> alt.borderline.case.admitted.confessed.!avoided
19:48:20 <sbp> alt.humorous.laugh.chuckle.smirk.grin
19:48:21 <jcowan> alt.great.idea.adopted.adopted.adopted
19:49:11 <jcowan> I shall now use alt.johannine.cowan.hight.hight.hight.
19:49:26 <sbp> I lack an adjective; quite sad really. though "Sean" is just "John" filtered through Irish and English
19:49:33 <libby> *** libby (~libby@66.7.88.180) has joined #swhack
19:49:45 <jcowan> So is "Cowan".
19:49:53 <sbp> hight: ooh
19:50:05 <sbp> Cowan's from Hebrew?
19:50:18 <sbp> hey there libby
19:50:30 <libby> heyup
19:53:30 <sbp> ah, hmm: [[[
19:53:30 <sbp> Search results for: Cowan
19:53:30 <sbp> (origin: Gaelic.) Gobhainn, a smith; Gowan, a Scottish word for a wild flower.
19:53:37 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.last-names.net/surname.asp?surname=Cowan
19:54:13 <sbp> irritating apostrophes in the plurals on that page
19:54:55 <sbp> just another anglicized celtic word then
19:56:07 <sbp> * sbp wonders whence jcowan's interest in celticonlang
19:58:22 <jcowan> Cowan = Mac Eoghain, the son of Eoghan (another Irish clone of "John")
19:59:17 <sbp> ah! thanks. is last-names.net completely erroneous on that matter, then, or is there an alternate etymology for it too?
19:59:35 <jcowan> Probably. Some Cowans are just Cohens who have changed the spelling, too.
19:59:58 <jcowan> Occasionally I get accused of being a self-hating Jew, even.
20:00:42 <sbp> hmm
20:00:45 <jcowan> Es ist shver tsu zayn a Cowan, and no fooling: those who can spell it, can't pronounce it, and vice versa.
20:02:43 <sbp> translation for the yiddish? (and, en passant, how many languages are you fluent in?)
20:02:57 <jcowan> My grandfather the immigrant was "John J. Coen". He adopted "Cowan" the spelling soon after arriving here; the pronunciation, according to my father, was unilaterally altered by my father's football coach.
20:03:08 <jcowan> "It's hard to be a Cowan", parody of the common saying "It's hard to be a Jew."
20:03:18 <jcowan> Only English.
20:03:21 <redmonk> *** redmonk has quit ("Quitting")
20:03:40 <jcowan> coach: "What's your name?"
20:03:57 <jcowan> My father: "Cowan, sir!" (pronounced like Cohen)
20:04:12 <jcowan> Coach [contemptuously] "You're Cowan!" (like "cow")
20:04:22 <jcowan> It stuck, and spread to his brothers and sisters, too.
20:05:20 <jcowan> My wife quite likes it, and is even more vociferous in enforcing the correct pronunciation than I am.
20:05:49 <sbp> sorry, got disconnected. here's to the hope of a better connection soon...
20:05:58 <sbp> so your grandfather is of Jewish descent? why did he change the spelling?
20:06:06 <jcowan> No, Irish.
20:06:22 <sbp> ah, and the spelling was a normalization then I presume
20:06:29 <jcowan> Presumably. No one alive remembers.
20:06:43 <sbp> * sbp is also glad that he's not the only monoglot around for a change
20:06:51 <jcowan> My father's birth certificate (1904) says "Cowan", so it was before that.
20:07:42 <jcowan> Very few, if any, Jews named John, despite its unimpeachable Hebrew origin. Jon/Jonathan/Yonatan, yes; John/Yokhanan, no.
20:07:42 <sbp> heh. that reminds me of yuor saying (I think it was you, anyway) that it's a shame that Yola died out just before the professional study of linguistics was undertaken on a wider scale
20:07:48 <jcowan> Yup, me.
20:08:07 <redmonk> *** redmonk (~steve@208.38.224.146) has joined #swhack
20:08:18 <jcowan> There's a Jon Cowan who also works at Reuters; we get each other's email, voicemail, phone calls, and packages.
20:08:20 <sbp> and that's a point; I'd not noticed any, but hadn't thought of it
20:08:36 <jcowan> Replay: [[[
20:08:44 <jcowan> <jcowan> coach: "What's your name?"
20:08:44 <jcowan> <jcowan> My father: "Cowan, sir!" (pronounced like Cohen)
20:08:44 <jcowan> <jcowan> Coach [contemptuously] "You're Cowan!" (like "cow")
20:08:44 <jcowan> <jcowan> It stuck, and spread to his brothers and sisters, too.
20:08:44 <jcowan> <jcowan> My wife quite likes it, and is even more vociferous in enforcing the correct pronunciation than I am.
20:08:48 <jcowan> ]]]
20:08:49 <sbp> heh, heh. I know how that goes, but just because the numbers around here are confusing
20:09:08 <sbp> ah, thanks, but I'm using a dircproxy instance which gets repeated to me automatically when I join
20:09:15 <jcowan> Oh, sorry.
20:09:23 <sbp> no problem at all; thanks for the consideration
20:09:27 <sbp> there are also logs:
20:09:30 <sbp> loggy: pointer?
20:09:30 <sbp> See http://swhack.com/logs/2004-05-19#T20-09-30
20:10:06 <bjoern_> *** bjoern_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
20:10:23 <sbp> hmm. I'm suddenly getting rather worried hoping that someone informed you this is a publically logged channel... ah, yes, you read the FAQ
20:10:26 <bjoern_> *** bjoern_ (~bjoern@213.23.52.98) has joined #swhack
20:10:52 <jcowan> I pretty well assume that everything I say on the 'net except private email is logged somewhere, and I can't be too sure about the private email, either.
20:11:01 <sbp> heh, indeed
20:11:11 <jcowan> Fortunately, I have few secrets of my own, and I deal with other people's secrets by forgetting them.
20:11:41 <jeremiah> *** jeremiah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:12:14 <sbp> see also: http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/continuity
20:12:26 <sbp> forgetting secrets is indeed the best defence
20:13:08 <sbp> oh, perhaps he removed the bit about publishing his hard drives to the WEb
20:13:13 <sbp> s/WEb/Web/
20:13:23 <sbp> AaronSw? are you actually around?
20:13:50 <jcowan> Nope, still there.
20:14:01 <jcowan> You and I have something else in common: being virtual executors.
20:14:06 <sbp> oh whoops; so it is
20:14:13 <jcowan> I wonder how many others there are?
20:14:33 <sbp> hmm. for whom are you a virtual executor, if you may say?
20:14:40 <jcowan> ESR.
20:14:43 <sbp> oh!
20:14:52 <sbp> the very original
20:15:01 <sbp> pleased to meet you
20:15:16 <jcowan> Meased to pleat *you*.
20:15:52 <sbp> Mease \Mease\, n. [Cf. G. mass measure.]
20:15:52 <sbp> Five hundred; as, a mease of herrings. [Prov. Eng.]
20:16:22 <sbp> nice word that, but I'll have forgotten it by bedtime this evening
20:16:57 <jcowan> If youth only knew, if age only could.
20:17:51 <jcowan> I do hope I'll never have to take over the Jargon File. Quux is older than either Eric or me.
20:18:19 <sbp> heh. I've been avoiding that question, but I think that my curiousity has finally obliterated my common courtesy: may I ask how old you are? the birthdate of your father started me down that line of thinking...
20:18:53 <sbp> (shame that tuxedo.org is out. and aye, the Jargon File must be a monster task to maintain)
20:19:08 <jcowan> Eric moved to catb.org.
20:19:16 <kpreid> * kpreid . o O ( cat.borg )
20:19:24 <jcowan> Born 1958-07-02, so almost 46.
20:19:52 <jcowan> Eric was born in 1957, so we are contemporaries.
20:20:28 <sbp> ah, ESR preserved all his paths. that's useful
20:20:31 <jcowan> As I understand it, the tuxedo.org sysadmin turfed Eric out, but I don't (need to) know why.
20:20:38 <sbp> * sbp was ust trying to get to http://catb.org/~esr/continuity.html
20:20:46 <jcowan> Most of 'em. Inside the Jargon File things are different now.
20:20:53 <jeremiah> *** jeremiah (~chatzilla@ip68-228-138-252.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack
20:21:04 <sbp> yeah. Aaron contacted the sysadmin about that, but it appears to be a long complicated story that it's best not to know
20:21:06 <jcowan> Not so much technically hard, as the focus of controversy.
20:21:15 <jcowan> Many ESR stories have that property.
20:21:24 <sbp> heh, yes
20:21:37 <jcowan> Indeed, all those properties.
20:21:54 <sbp> * sbp tries to browse and chat
20:22:01 <sbp> so in what capacity do you know ESR?
20:22:36 <jcowan> I wrote to him long ago asking him something about Teenage Mutant Ninja Netnews (an offshoot of B news that didn't go anywhere).
20:23:09 <jcowan> Then I forgot he existed, but he sent me a pointer to -gua\spi, Jim Carter's offshoot of Loglan.
20:23:35 <jcowan> And that led to the Lojban list, which he was serving as Lord of the Instrumentality for.
20:24:03 <sbp> I really enjoy going back over correspondence with friends from before I knew them well: the perceptions I had of them prima facie are quite hilarious sometimes
20:24:38 <sbp> oh, and on Lojban: did you see the Borges article that Talliesin and I came across the other day?
20:24:50 <MoiraA> *** MoiraA (~moira@ACBDDBAF.ipt.aol.com) has joined #swhack
20:25:19 <sbp> hey there Moira
20:25:33 <MoiraA> hello sbp!
20:26:11 <sam__> *** sam__ is now known as UnknownQ
20:26:22 <MoiraA> back from Oxford
20:26:35 <jcowan> * jcowan scratches his head.
20:26:58 <sbp> Moira: did you enjoy yourself? how's your daughter getting on in her studies? what did you see?
20:27:02 <sbp> * sbp looks for the piece
20:27:05 <MoiraA> had a great time
20:27:10 <MoiraA> she was 21 yesterday
20:27:17 <sbp> The Analytical Language of John Wilkins: http://www.crockford.com/wrrrld/wilkins.html
20:27:30 <MoiraA> we went punting today and I fell in the river :(
20:27:46 <MoiraA> so far my phone, digital camera aren't working
20:27:52 <MoiraA> and I lost my sunglasses :(
20:28:00 <sbp> only peripherally related, but thought I'd best show you it in the almost inconceivable chance that you're not previously aware of it
20:28:01 <jcowan> Ow ow ow ow. ~~ sympathy ~~
20:28:06 <sbp> ouch indeed!
20:28:12 <MoiraA> I'm hoping they might dry out
20:28:14 <jcowan> It's being discussed on Lojban list at this very instant.
20:28:26 <sbp> ha. okay then
20:28:51 <jcowan> * jcowan was thinking "Is he talking about the stuff on Lojban List? He must be, but how???"
20:28:57 <jcowan> GMTA.
20:29:09 <sbp> Moira: my experiences of water + electronic goods are surpisingly good; they tend to come back, but just work rather intermittently
20:29:34 <jcowan> The computer at Yeshiva University (in NYC) was said to be so flaky that if it were taken out and
20:29:43 <sbp> heh, heh. GHMM etc., but it's also quite possible for me to be subscribed to the lojban list
20:29:45 <jcowan> dumped in the river, it would only sink intermittently.
20:30:12 <MoiraA> yeah, I fell in twice actually
20:30:17 <sbp> I'm not since I'm not subscribed to any lists at the moment: spam and DNS problems crippled my main email box, so I moved everything elsewhere and am yet to subscribe. am wanting to pick and choose...
20:30:28 <MoiraA> once when I was punting, then I tried to climb out so I could walk back and slipped on the bank
20:30:28 <sbp> Moira: didn't you learn from the first time you went in that you'd get wet? :-)
20:30:45 <MoiraA> that was when my camera etc got wet because my whole handbag went underwater
20:30:57 <sbp> hmm
20:31:01 <MoiraA> I had to walk up the high street covered in mud and slime
20:31:03 <jcowan> Next time, bring large zip-lock bag.
20:31:06 <MoiraA> v. embarrassing
20:31:22 <MoiraA> the water was freezing
20:31:25 <sbp> you'd think they'd make more waterproof cameras--it's irritating to not be able to confidently take photos in the rain
20:31:36 <jcowan> Waterproof = more $$$.
20:31:37 <MoiraA> I couldn't climb out where I fell in and had to swimm quite a way
20:31:53 <MoiraA> I had such heavy clothes on too, suede shoes, cord trousers etc
20:32:02 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim (JimLey@dsl-217-155-143-65.zen.co.uk) has joined #swhack
20:32:02 <sbp> yeah... you can get them but as you say, the cost isn't worth it. who'd've thunk hermically sealing a camera would be that bloody expensive?
20:32:17 <MoiraA> I'm hoping the camera might recover with a new battery
20:32:20 <sbp> did any of your boatmates fall out too?
20:32:23 <sbp> hey there Jim!
20:32:28 <MoiraA> no
20:32:36 <MoiraA> there was my husband and Louise
20:32:51 <MoiraA> Derek didn't move from the inside of the boat and Louise did slip in actually at the end
20:33:00 <MoiraA> but didn't get completely immersed
20:33:08 <MoiraA> I more or less did a headfirst dive
20:33:25 <MoiraA> the water's quite deep, I sank several feet before surfacing
20:33:38 <sbp> how did you fall out?
20:33:42 <jcowan> sbp: you know Peter da Silva's line on verbogeny?
20:33:54 <sbp> jcowan: no; enlighten me, por favor?
20:33:55 <MoiraA> I was standing on the boat, trying my hand at punting (which I'm not very good at)
20:34:04 <MoiraA> it gets a bit wet and slippy anyway
20:34:11 <MoiraA> we hit the bank and I lost my balance
20:34:16 <jcowan> "Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes of a creatific thinkerizer."
20:34:18 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:34:20 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim (JimLey@dsl-217-155-143-65.zen.co.uk) has joined #swhack
20:34:20 <MoiraA> I didn't even see us hitting the bank so I wasn't expecting it
20:34:37 <sbp> oh, actually I have seen that before somewhere
20:35:08 <jcowan> * jcowan scratches his head furiously, and recalls that there's a safety rule about not standing up in boats ... but perhaps they do these things differently in Rightpondia.
20:35:13 <sbp> probably just in a quotes file. who is Da Silva?
20:35:22 <sbp> Rightpondia.., heh
20:35:28 <sbp> .gc Rightpondia
20:35:29 <xena> Rightpondia: 54
20:35:38 <sbp> .gc Dextropondia
20:35:38 <xena> no results found.
20:35:42 <sbp> pfft
20:35:55 <JibberJim> if you can't stand up in boats, how do you get to the bar?
20:36:05 <kpreid> needs a google-groups-count
20:36:07 <sbp> and you sank several feet even though you hit a bank?
20:36:07 <MoiraA> haha
20:36:10 <kpreid> 1,950
20:36:15 <MoiraA> yes, the bank is quite high
20:36:17 <sbp> 1950? hmm
20:36:24 <MoiraA> too high to climb out
20:36:34 <MoiraA> the boat didn't sink, just me
20:36:53 <MoiraA> if the camera ever recovers I'll let you see a picture
20:37:06 <MoiraA> Derek took a photo rather than come to my rescue
20:37:53 <jcowan> PdS: Usenetter, Perl geek, and many another thing, aka "mad tsar's evil jeep".
20:37:54 <sbp> * sbp suddenly realises he's probably only seen the quote in a jcowan authentic original .sig
20:38:01 <jcowan> Ah.
20:38:17 <sbp> Moira: ha, great!
20:38:35 <sbp> shame it's on the camera that got dunked; makes me think that you did it on purpose, especially if you were wet anyway...
20:38:46 <MoiraA> hardly :/ bit expensive to do on purpose :(
20:39:06 <sbp> jcowan: oh, something I've been meaning to ask you for years but have never had an occasion to: do you have your whole .sig quotes list online in a single place somewhere?
20:39:12 <sbp> if not, can you provide it?
20:39:21 <sbp> Moira: yeah... sorry
20:39:31 <MoiraA> I'm lost without my phone as well
20:39:39 <MoiraA> but other than that we had a good time
20:39:45 <sbp> * sbp has also badgered xover here about putting his quotes file online
20:39:52 <jcowan> The English-speaking countries are Rightpondia, Leftpondia, Northicia (that's icy-a, not isha), Bharattia, Downundria, Sarfeffrica, Cecilia, and Aotearoa.
20:39:55 <MoiraA> took Louise and 6 friends out for a meal last night
20:40:20 <jcowan> Ireland claims to belong, but, well....
20:40:31 <jeremiah> *** jeremiah has quit (Connection timed out)
20:40:55 <MoiraA> the weather was ace
20:41:15 <sbp> hmm. Cecilia?
20:42:09 <sbp> * sbp echos http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0206c&L=conlang&F=&S=&P=20407, should just look for a reply on that thread... ah! 'Zimbabwe, which was conquered by Cecil Rhodes. In OTL it was "Rhodesia".'
20:42:34 <sbp> that was fairly obscure, even if you've heard of Rhodes
20:42:34 <jcowan> [[[
20:42:50 <jcowan> ]]], sorry.
20:43:07 <sbp> heh, heh. an abandoned quote deely...
20:43:16 <jcowan> One of my other .sigs quotes Mark Twain on Cecil Rhodes: "I admire him, I freely admit it, and when his time comes I shall buy a piece of the rope as a keepsake."
20:43:19 <jcowan> [[[
20:43:34 <jcowan> An English sea-captain being asked if he had read "The Exile of
20:43:34 <jcowan> Erin," replied: "No, sir, but I should like to anchor on it." Years
20:43:34 <jcowan> afterwards, when he had been hanged as a pirate after a career of
20:43:34 <jcowan> unparalleled atrocities, the following memorandum was found in the
20:43:34 <jcowan> ship's log that he had kept at the time of his reply:
20:43:54 <jcowan> Aug. 3d, 1842. Made a joke on the ex-Isle of Erin. Coldly received. War with the whole world!
20:43:55 <jcowan> ]]]
20:43:57 <sbp> Moira: do you go down there on your birthday too so that she can see you?
20:44:12 <MoiraA> not necessarily
20:44:19 <MoiraA> actually the past two years, she was home by then
20:44:24 <MoiraA> because she was living in halls
20:44:33 <sbp> Exile of Erin: heh!
20:44:37 <MoiraA> this is the first year she's lived out, so I'm not sure what will happen
20:44:46 <MoiraA> if I went down there, the others wouldn't see me up here
20:44:49 <jcowan> Never ignore a jokester.
20:44:53 <MoiraA> 3MBl370n
20:44:57 <MoiraA> sorry
20:45:00 <MoiraA> wrong window
20:45:03 <sbp> (hmm, too long for a .sig, guess I'd better Google to find where that was dredged up from)
20:45:18 <jcowan> Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_.
20:45:19 <redmonk> hi al
20:45:19 <redmonk> all
20:45:21 <redmonk> http://rm.bookdev.com/2004/05/19/blogging-for-fun-profit
20:45:30 <jcowan> s.v. Exile.
20:45:39 <sbp> yeah, got it. I need to read all of that instead of just getting dict.org and fortune nuggets
20:46:13 <sbp> redmonk: Not Found: http://rm.bookdev.com/wp-content/blogPresentation.pdf
20:46:30 <sbp> (and ta for the reference)
20:46:35 <jcowan> http://www.gutenberg.net/etext97/dvldc10.txt
20:46:45 <sbp> ah, thanks again!
20:47:31 <sbp> hmm, rather long. might be worth buying a printed version
20:48:20 <jcowan> 142 pages, so if you want hard copy, advise http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0747569673 for GBP 6.99.
20:48:51 <sbp> * sbp goes and adds it to his recommendations/to-read list
20:49:56 <sbp> book recommendatia: always saddening that I add faster than I buy and consume
20:51:05 <jcowan> "So many books, so little time."
20:51:13 <sbp> Moira: perhaps you could all meet half way!
20:51:17 <sbp> yeah
20:52:08 <sbp> so many websites and movies and documentaries and songs and correspondence and open source programs and so forth too...
20:52:59 <MoiraA> maybe .... kind of expensive tho
20:53:09 <MoiraA> easier for me to pay for her to come up here probably
20:53:30 <MoiraA> her exams will be finished by my birthday, so it would be quite a good time to visit
20:53:41 <sbp> * sbp nods
20:53:56 <MoiraA> brb just going to find out why the hell aol won't let my access my main screen name
20:54:13 <jcowan> My .sig quotes are not on line anywhere I know of; I did once attach all the ones containing "the", or something like that, to some posting to some mailing list or other.
20:54:49 <jcowan> * jcowan glories in the two 60 ppm printers he has access to, working for a big media company and all.
20:55:13 <sbp> I need to write a semi-intelligent crawler to aggregate people's .sigs for me
20:55:23 <sbp> heh
20:55:40 <sbp> you can choose your own font too. lucky
20:56:24 <sbp> no more Monotype Baskerville...
20:56:41 <jcowan> One of the conceptual barriers to the blog software I've been thinking about writing for myself is what to do with the .sigs.
20:56:56 <jcowan> They are so often relevant, and yet it would look gross to attach one, in monowidth font yet, to each posting.
20:57:23 <jcowan> But they are carefully designed to fit into the 80 x {2-6} monowidth space.
20:58:07 <sbp> perhaps you could make some JavaScript concoction: make it appear on mouseover, or something horrid like that. hmm
20:59:25 <sbp> I don't think it'd be particularly gross, though. not much different to people having signatures in forum posts--on slashdot and kuro5hin
21:00:32 <jcowan> Probably I'd just have to have a little icon that you click on, and that takes you to the right place in the .sig page.
21:01:46 <kpreid> jcowan: long or short entries?
21:02:35 <jcowan> The idea is to repurpose my outgoing email, which is vast. I can't do email and write a blog too, but I can use the email to *construct* a blog by just adding a few keywords to it when I publish it. (Obviously, not all outgoing emails get published.)
21:02:48 <jcowan> I can also retro-publish from my archives, as Tim Bray does.
21:02:48 <sbp> .blogpost:after { content: "Verbogeny is one of the pleasurettes\00000A of a creatific thinkerizer - Da Silva"; }
21:03:50 <jcowan> Sometimes I change things in a particular .sig, so I'd have to have a fuzzy matcher to detect the correct current version of it vs. the one in the archive.
21:03:51 <sbp> so you'd post through an SMTP proxy that would scan for those keywords and post to your blog if it finds them, formatting appropriately?
21:04:19 <jcowan> Probably something simpler like :w !blog kw1 kw2 before sending.
21:04:51 <sbp> heh. reminds me of Bray automating ongoing's publiction process in emacs
21:05:04 <sbp> er, publication
21:05:48 <jcowan> What's really bizarre is how often a randomly chosen .sig is relevant; only rarely do I actually choose a .sig for its relevance.
21:06:03 <jcowan> Sometimes they sound like snide commentary on what I've written, or (worse) what other people have.
21:06:20 <sbp> ouch. your random seed probably has a sense of irony
21:06:36 <jcowan> "God is an iron." --Spider Robinson.
21:07:52 <sbp> * sbp finds http://clublet.com/c/c/why?GodIsAnIron
21:08:31 <sbp> irony is the new nice
21:09:10 <sbp> it ironies whatever I want it to
21:09:30 <jcowan> Okay, okay. SR says "iron" means "one who practices irony", which is good Greek too -- Socrates was called "ho eiron" because he claimed to be the biggest booby in Athens.
21:10:05 <sbp> ho eiron?
21:11:32 <sbp> (Google is being unhelpful)
21:12:19 <jcowan> * jcowan browses Liddell and Scott : kai kassai the Perseus Project, putting the classics on line
21:13:47 <jcowan> * jcowan discovers that Perseus is broken today. @#$*.
21:14:24 <jcowan> Well, anyway, "eiron" is the Greek word from which irony comes, and it means one who says other than what he means, or claims to know less than he does.
21:14:28 <sbp> interesting map on its homepage though: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/timespace.html
21:14:39 <sbp> ah, thanks
21:14:48 <jcowan> ho = masculine definite article.
21:15:21 <sbp> gendered articles? is that a common feature amongst languages that have gender?
21:15:58 <jcowan> yes indeedy.
21:16:27 <jcowan> Articles usually come from demonstrative pronouns (English "the" is a degenerate form of "that", e.g.), and as such usually have gender.
21:16:49 <sbp> interesting!
21:17:48 <sbp> hmm. I wonder if there's a correlation between the forms (or absence) of demonstrative pronouns and the omission of articles in languages like Russian and Welsh that don't have them?
21:18:13 <sbp> er, they only lack the indefinite though
21:18:46 <jcowan> Russian has neither definite nor indefinite.
21:18:56 <sbp> ah, ta
21:19:04 <jcowan> Typically, the definite descends from a demonstrative, and the indefinite from the word for "one".
21:19:31 <jcowan> Neat example due to Quine:
21:19:33 <deusx> *** deusx has quit (Remote closed the connection)
21:19:51 <jcowan> "He removed the manuscript from the briefcase and threw it into the sea."
21:19:53 <sbp> and only one language lacks numerals, IIRC, so there's probably no correlation then
21:20:14 <redmonk> *** redmonk has quit ("Quitting")
21:20:20 <jcowan> "It" could mean the briefcase or the manuscript.
21:20:39 <jcowan> But in French, where "manuscrit" is masc. and "serviette" is fem., all is well:
21:21:25 <jcowan> "Il retira le manuscrit de la serviette et le/la jeta dans le mer."
21:21:45 <jcowan> If it's "le", it's "le manuscrit" that gets drowned; if it's "la", it's "la serviette".
21:22:24 <sbp> makes me wonder why some features of language--excessive case (Old English and Latin compared to English, or Finnish compared to anything else), multiple genders--exist when they don't serve any apparent purpose
21:22:38 <sbp> given Quine's example, perhaps they do have some merit after all
21:22:56 <jcowan> Indeed. In Lojban we have no less than 17 genders: the b-gender, the c-gender, the d-gender, etc. etc.
21:23:00 <jcowan> and a pronoun for each one.
21:23:02 <sbp> but if both of those objects shared gender...
21:23:12 <sbp> why were 17 genders chosen?
21:23:12 <jcowan> Then you lose. The more genders you have, the less likely that is.
21:23:16 <jcowan> 17 consonants.
21:23:21 <sbp> heh
21:23:34 <sbp> why were 17 consonants chosen? :-)
21:24:01 <jcowan> Enough to make a lot of words, not so many as to make them difficult to pronounce.
21:24:20 <jcowan> b, d, f, g, k, l, m, n, p, r, s, t, v, z are as you'd expect.
21:24:30 <sbp> it does seem a pretty sensible amount
21:24:46 <jcowan> c is sh, j is zh
21:24:54 <jcowan> x is kh.
21:25:09 <sbp> how is "ch" as in "church" represented?
21:25:15 <jcowan> tc.
21:25:16 <deltab> tc
21:25:30 <sbp> amazing how it always get a digraph. it's such a common sound!
21:25:48 <sbp> * sbp waves to deltab, and thought/hopes he might well be following this...
21:25:50 <sbp> er, hoped
21:25:51 <deltab> it's two sounds
21:26:01 <sbp> ty, right
21:26:15 <sbp> such a common combination, I should've said
21:26:18 <jcowan> In English it patterns as one sound, but it can be analyzed as two sounds in other langs.
21:26:46 <sbp> its English orthography isn't very rational
21:26:51 <sbp> (but welcome to English...)
21:27:16 <jcowan> Of 1342 basic Lojban words, only 246 have it.
21:28:16 <sbp> of 400935 English words in my wordlist, 21305 contain "ch"
21:28:54 <sbp> roughly three times less in English, percentage wise
21:29:13 <jcowan> But every basic lojban word has exactly one consonant cluster.
21:29:36 <sbp> how many consonants can be in a cluster?
21:29:54 <jcowan> normally 2-3, more in the case of borrowings from other langs.
21:30:03 <jcowan> Oops, I goofed in counting.
21:30:33 <sbp> statistically, 246 would be high, then. 17**2.5 is 1191.58
21:30:36 <jcowan> Make that 29 words. I was counting words with "ch" in the English definition as well.
21:30:43 <sbp> ahh
21:31:10 <jcowan> grep '^....[a-z]' gismu | cut -c1-5 | grep 'tc' | wc -l
21:31:32 <sbp> gismu?
21:31:42 <jcowan> Lojban for "basic word".
21:31:57 <jcowan> I was leaving out the "cut".
21:32:21 <kpreid> zo gismu gismu
21:32:24 <sbp> how are lojban words formed? is gismu compounded from the words for "basic" and "word" for example?
21:32:47 <jcowan> No, it's primitive: indeed, the "i" and "m" in it come from the English word "primitive", though barely recognizable.
21:32:47 <deltab> no, they're the basic words
21:33:20 <jcowan> Primitive words are formed by this algorithm: words for the concept are chosen from Chinese, Hindi, English, Spanish, Arabic, and Russian, the most widely spoken languages of the world.
21:33:23 <deltab> they can be combined to form longer words
21:34:09 <jcowan> Primitive words must be 5 letters long and take one of the forms CCVCV or CVCCV (C = consonant, V = vowel), where there are strong restrictions on CC pairs.
21:34:46 <jcowan> The word itself is computed by linear programming: we maximize the weighted sum of figure-of-merit matches between candidate words and the natural-language words.
21:35:18 <jcowan> The FoM is 2 if exactly 2 letters match and are either consecutive or have one letter between them in both words;
21:35:37 <jcowan> FoM is 3, 4, or 5 if 3, 4, or 5 letters match; 0 otherwise.
21:35:52 <jcowan> The weights are proportional to the number of speakers of each language; they are basically there to break ties.
21:36:04 <jcowan> The intention is to maximize memorability, not instant recognizability.
21:36:31 <sbp> hmm. that'd mean the upper bound on basic word forms is 353,736 combinations, were it not for the strict limits on consonant clusters, whose nature I wasn't able to find from a quick flick through the lojban FAQs
21:37:09 <sbp> and that's a very nice logical approach
21:37:11 <jcowan> There is also a rule of separation: since gismu exists, kismu xismu gizmu and gisnu are forbidden.
21:37:34 <sbp> all words with an edit distance of one?
21:37:45 <deltab> they're things like not having both voiced and unvoiced
21:38:01 <jcowan> All words with a *featural* edit distance of one.
21:38:20 <jcowan> g conflicts with k, but not with z, for example.
21:38:23 <sbp> right. that follow the pattern... you just didn't have any vowel examples there
21:39:30 <jcowan> Central vowels aren't involved in the separation rules: we can and do have bradi bredi bridi brodi, and brudi is possible but doesn't happen to exist.
21:40:11 <jcowan> Final vowels are involved, with the exception of broda brode brodi brodo brodu, which are nonce words which mean what you locally define them to mean.
21:40:35 <sbp> but may be computationally assigned in future? what happens if you need a new primitive but it's already taken? just use the next best fit? how do you decide which words get the best fit--the most commonly used ones in the source languages?
21:40:54 <sbp> heh! metasyntactic variables built in!
21:40:57 <jcowan> Pretty much. We haven't created any new primitives since I think 1995 or so.
21:41:18 <jcowan> Those are metasyntactic *verbs*, actually.
21:41:35 <jcowan> The idea of the primitives is to blanket semantic space rather than to systematically cover it.
21:41:38 <sbp> hmm. do you have other metasyntactic variables fulfilling other grammatical roles?
21:41:53 <jcowan> Gaps (especially in food, cultures, and species) are filled by borrowing.
21:42:00 <sbp> ah
21:42:04 <kpreid> they aren't metasyntactic, are they? just assignable
21:42:04 <jcowan> Well, there are 10 unassigned pronouns that mean what you assign them to mean.
21:42:26 <jcowan> Right.
21:42:42 <sbp> why would you want to assign a pronoun?
21:43:08 <jcowan> So that you can talk about things without repeating their names or descriptions all the time.
21:43:11 <kpreid> sbp: if 'briefcase' and 'sea' have the same gender
21:43:19 <sbp> (please forgive all the lazy questioning instead of Googling, incidentally. making a note to learn lojban!)
21:43:21 <kpreid> (to return to a previous example)
21:43:36 <jcowan> Same reason as pronouns in other langs, really, except pronouns usually have *some* semantics, like "he" is male person.
21:43:38 <sbp> (well, it's been on the todo pile for years)
21:43:51 <libby> *** libby has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:43:57 <sbp> and ah, I see. so it's a kind of local pronoun
21:44:06 <inkel> *** inkel has quit ()
21:44:06 <sbp> how does the assignation take place?
21:44:21 <jcowan> Scoping is vague, like in other natlangs, although there is a word that says "reset all assignable words now".
21:44:33 <sbp> heh
21:44:59 <sbp> as long as there's no comefrom...
21:45:22 <jcowan> Another cool feature is the erasure words: "si" erases the last word, "sa" erases back to the last word of the same type as the word that follows, and "su" erases everything you've said, unless you've said nothing, in which case it erases everything that everyone has said in this conversation.
21:45:46 <jcowan> s/back to/back to and including
21:45:59 <sbp> quite powerful
21:46:07 <sbp> su would be useful in publically logged channels
21:46:15 <jcowan> Yup. I say "susu" and the entire conversation disappears.
21:47:05 <jcowan> The current LALR(1)-with-nasty-hacks parser doesn't implement these, but we are now implementing a PEG-based parser that does.
21:47:40 <deltab> there are subscriptable pronouns too, aren't there?
21:47:41 <sbp> I'm still curious as to whether there's a specific assignable-pronoun to noun binding technique or not
21:47:50 <deltab> there is
21:48:21 <kpreid> le xamsi goi ko'a
21:48:36 <kpreid> "the ocean, which I shall refer to as ko'a"
21:48:50 <sbp> thanks
21:48:56 <kpreid> * kpreid practices...
21:49:12 <sbp> my ko'a = new Ocean();
21:49:12 <jcowan> Drilling down a level, "le xamsi" is not actually "the ocean", because "xamsi" is a verb meaning "to be an ocean".
21:49:41 <jcowan> Rather it means "The thing which (hoping you understand me) I shall refer to as 'that which is an ocean'"
21:50:08 <deltab> a verb?
21:50:16 <sbp> subscriptable pronouns?
21:50:34 <jcowan> In principal it could be a pot of my grandmother's potato soup, but that's only communicative in contexts where I expect you to already understand why I call it an "ocean".
21:50:45 <jcowan> s/principal/principle
21:51:09 <jcowan> Yes, if you don't have enough pronouns you can subscript them: the subscript word is "xi" and you say numbers in Lojban by spelling out the digits, MSB first.
21:51:38 <jcowan> Not "new Ocean()", but rather the old, pre-existing, already understood ocean.
21:52:34 <jcowan> "lo xamsi" lets you refer to "that which actually is an ocean". And either of these can be singular or plural indifferently, depending on context.
21:52:59 <sbp> digits: all decimal, presumably? kinda a shame, since I like the Chinese two-ten-one kind of system; someone wrote somewhere (lazy citationlessness) that it may give schoolkids an advantage in mental arithmetic since the numbers are naturally divided into smaller groups which can then be operated upon. cum grano salis, I think
21:53:13 <sbp> Ocean() could be a singleton class
21:53:48 <sbp> but aye. my ko'a = stdlib.Ocean; then :-)
21:53:50 <deltab> yes, deciaml, unless you switch to another base
21:54:02 <jcowan> Not the point. If I say "lo xunre", I am referring to something which is red ("xunre" = "is-red") (Ex) (x is red).
21:54:03 <deltab> there are 16 digit words
21:54:33 <kpreid> jcowan: wait, I thought "lo" by default referred to everything-which-is?
21:54:40 <jcowan> But "le xunre" is "the red (probably) thing I have in mind": it could be the girl over there in the red dress, or a tomato.
21:54:42 <deltab> and you can group multiple digits as digits in a higher base (e.g. 60)
21:54:53 <jcowan> kpreid: no, something which is.
21:55:15 <jcowan> You can do Prolog quite nicely (if verbosely) in Lojban.
21:55:36 <sbp> so the/a(n) == le/lo?
21:55:42 <jcowan> Sort of.
21:56:15 <jcowan> "The" means that the listener is expected to know the referent. "le" means that the speaker knows the referent, and you have to find out from him (or guess) what it is.
21:56:22 <sbp> deltab: I don't follow there... do you have an example?
21:56:33 <jcowan> So "lo nanmu" can mean "the man" (known to both) or "a certain man" (known to me, not to you).
21:56:42 <kpreid> jcowan: oops. I misremembered the reference apparently. thanks.
21:56:49 <jcowan> s/lo nanmu/le nanmu
21:56:50 <sbp> ah
21:57:01 <deltab> 21;56;22 is a number in base 60
21:57:04 <jcowan> In either case I am the authority on what is and what is not a man.
21:57:16 <sbp> ah, thanks
21:57:20 <jcowan> But with "lo nanmu", it has to actually be a man, and my mental contents have nothing to do with it.
21:57:39 <deltab> @topic add [last --with authority]
21:57:41 <supybot> *** supybot has changed the topic to: #swhack. Welcome to the right-hand side of the bellcurve (the one for irrelevance, d.h.) || <jcowan> In either case I am the authority on what is and what is not a man. (deltab)
21:57:42 <sbp> so 0x1A would be 1;11?
21:57:52 <sbp> hehe
21:58:31 <jcowan> roda rode rodi zo'u da patpatfu di .inaja tu'u da patfu de .ije de patfu di
21:58:58 <jcowan> says "grandfather(X,Z) :- father(X,Y), father(Y,Z)"
21:59:17 <deltab> sbp: if you mean 0x1B, yes
21:59:29 <sbp> er, 1;10
21:59:53 <deltab> sbp: or you can just use single digits - remember there are 16 of them
21:59:54 <jcowan> Yes. For bases up to sixteen there are monosyllabic words for each digit in the range 0-15, for convenience.
22:00:19 <sbp> that's handy
22:00:51 <jcowan> You can also do E notation, in the order 8E5.3 rather than 5.3E8, so that you know the order of magnitude right away.
22:01:18 <sbp> what happens with irrational numbers? pi? e? root two?
22:01:34 <sbp> complex numbers?
22:02:08 <jcowan> Pi has its own word, "pai". sqrt(2) is an expression. You say 2i5 for 2+5i (this i is not the letter i, nor is e in exponential notation the letter e)
22:02:21 <jcowan> i by itself means 0i1.
22:02:49 <deltab> the word for i, that is
22:02:58 <kpreid> ka'o
22:03:16 <jcowan> yes.
22:04:15 <jcowan> The fraction slash is not the same as division, either, and a fraction slash by itself means the golden ratio.
22:04:21 <deltab> there's a whole sublanguage (called mekso) for mathematical expressions
22:05:18 <jcowan> e is a word by itself, like pi.
22:05:22 <deltab> please excuse my vague non-linguist terminology
22:05:39 <jcowan> No, it's appropriate in this conversation.
22:05:52 <sbp> *** sbp has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:06:08 <sbp> *** sbp (sbp@vorpal.notabug.com) has joined #swhack
22:07:16 <sbp> I think I asked for clarification about i before the disconnection: each letter in lojban has a name, and k'ao is the name for the letter "i"?
22:07:29 <sbp> er, ka'o, excuse me
22:07:39 <kpreid> "ibu" is the name for i
22:07:52 <Morbus> *** Morbus (~morbus@pool-64-222-145-71.man.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
22:07:53 <libby> *** libby (~libby@66.7.88.180) has joined #swhack
22:08:01 <sbp> thanks. why the mention of "ka'o" then?
22:08:31 <sbp> (hi Morbus, libby. topic: lojban)
22:08:41 <jcowan> ka'o is the word for i in the sense of imaginary numbers.
22:08:51 <jcowan> so paka'ore is 1i2 , meaning 1+2i.
22:09:20 <sbp> [lightbulb]
22:09:21 <sbp> thanks
22:09:40 <jcowan> The letter names are boring: abu by cy dy ebu fy gy ...
22:10:15 <sbp> * sbp wonders if the producer of Becker was a lojban fan...
22:10:56 <sbp> are there any mutations in lojban?
22:11:03 <jcowan> No, the phonology is boring.
22:11:09 <jcowan> Nothing changes, ever.
22:11:12 <sbp> heh
22:11:27 <sbp> boring is good...
22:11:29 <jcowan> Like English or Chinese, only more so.
22:12:10 <sbp> what about case? you've a plethora of genders, please tell me that you keep case to a bare minimum? :-)
22:12:49 <jcowan> Mostly it's done by word order, as in English or Chinese again, though there can be up to four "objects" as well as a "subject".
22:12:53 <JibberJim> instead of cases, a big rucksack?
22:12:57 <jcowan> More, in the case of compound words.
22:13:08 <deltab> plethora of genders?
22:13:10 <libby> *** libby has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:13:29 <jcowan> For example, "A goes to B from C via route D using means E" is just "A klama B C D E".
22:13:30 <sbp> superabundance
22:13:33 <jcowan> That's fairly extreme.
22:13:38 <libby> *** libby (~libby@66.7.88.180) has joined #swhack
22:13:51 <jcowan> 17 genders: the b-gender, c-gender, d-gender (see log)
22:14:11 <deltab> yes, but what do you mean by that?
22:14:36 <jcowan> Think of it as a Prolog predicate: going(A,B,C,D,E).
22:14:41 <sbp> hmm. multiple objects... sounds like klama has a large theta grid
22:14:47 <sbp> yeah
22:15:15 <jcowan> You can rearrange the places using the pseudo-prepositions fa, fe, fi, fo, fu (subscript if you need more) for emphasis:
22:15:47 <jcowan> fi la boston. mi klama la atlantas. = It's Boston that I go to from Atlanta.
22:16:28 <sbp> why the -s on Atlanta?
22:16:47 <deltab> or you can use prefixes on the brivla to swap the places: se klama, te klama, etc.
22:17:10 <jcowan> Proper names have to end in consonant + pause to separate them from the rest of the stream. Period = mandatory pause.
22:17:29 <sbp> * sbp finds "'Predicate' words, or brivla, are the core of Lojban." via Google
22:17:46 <jcowan> What I've been calling verbs.
22:18:15 <sbp> isn't a lingustic predicate the verb and object?
22:18:36 <jcowan> Depends on context. Predicate is here used Prolog-fashion.
22:18:46 <deltab> the going in going(A,B,C,D,E).
22:19:21 <jcowan> Yes.
22:19:25 <jcowan> I should have said goes(A,B,C,D,E)
22:19:35 <deltab> or go
22:19:44 <deltab> (infinitive)
22:19:47 <jcowan> "going" would be nunklama: A is the event of B going to C from D via E using F.
22:20:32 <jcowan> Theta-roles are not really a necessary concept in Lojban, because each predicate (or at least each primitive predicate) has its own idiosyncratic set of places.
22:21:00 <jcowan> There are patterns, but they are not sufficient for prediction, only for mnemonicity.
22:21:27 <jcowan> Agents come first, destinations before origins, all words for animals and plants have the form "X is a whatever of species/breed Y"
22:21:39 <sbp> reminds me of adjective order
22:21:43 <jcowan> s/the event/an event
22:21:50 <jcowan> Yes.
22:22:06 <jcowan> JRRT as a child wondered why you have to say "great green dragon" and not "green great dragon".
22:22:23 <sbp> do adjectives post or pre modify nouns in lojban? I'll guess post
22:22:28 <jcowan> pre.
22:22:35 <sbp> dang. rationale?
22:22:45 <jcowan> Same as English, basically.
22:22:48 <sbp> heh
22:22:53 <deltab> tree house
22:22:53 <kpreid> well, there's "co"
22:23:02 <jcowan> "co" inverts the relationship.
22:23:17 <deltab> coat of fur
22:23:36 <jcowan> "Red rabbit" is really "is-red [type of] is-a-rabbit".
22:23:39 <sbp> I'm not sure why English does it that way either--I suppose so that you can know exactly the qualities of the thing that's being mentioned beforehand, though language is often taken in so fast perhaps the order doesn't matter
22:24:03 <jcowan> Most SVO languages are NA order; English is an exception.
22:24:21 <sbp> which is why I guessed post, but AN works for English
22:24:40 <jcowan> So there are no separate adjectives or nouns or adverbs, only particular uses of verbs/brivla.
22:24:55 <deltab> no separate verbs either
22:25:05 <jcowan> But brivla by themselves function like verbs.
22:25:36 <sbp> hmm. so can "co" be used to state possession too, as "of" can in English? coat of Bob?
22:26:18 <jcowan> Yes, that works. There are separate possessive constructions, though.
22:26:46 <deltab> "swim" can be imperative by itself
22:27:13 <jcowan> That's Loglan/English; in Lojban you use the imperative pronoun ko = you.
22:27:27 <jcowan> ko kurji = Make-it-so-that-you are-careful!
22:28:25 <jcowan> "limna" ("swim") by itself is a predication in Lojban, with all the arguments defaulted: you-know-who is swimming in you-know-what.
22:28:41 <deltab> I was trying to make the point that just because a word has a certain class when used on its own, it doesn't mean that it always has
22:29:02 <sbp> limna(actor=youKnowWho, place=youKnowWhat)
22:29:43 <jcowan> Yes. You can always omit an argument and let it be defaulted from context; you can replace it with the empty argument "zo'e" if leaving it out would be ambiguous.
22:30:03 <jcowan> So "mi klama la zarci" means "I go to the market", defaulting the origin, route, and means.
22:30:31 <sbp> whereas mi klama la zarci zo'e would be specifically saying you don't wish to reveal the origin?
22:30:49 <sbp> ah, and mi klama la zarci zo'e <route
22:31:04 <sbp> > would let you not reveal the origin, but add the route?
22:31:19 <jcowan> s/la zarci/le zarci
22:31:20 <Morbus> *** Morbus has quit ("http://disobey.com/")
22:31:52 <jcowan> No. zo'e is equivalent to omission, and means that the listener is expected to know the value.
22:32:45 <jcowan> zi'o suppresses the argument altogether, and makes a projection (in the relational db sense) of the predication.
22:33:01 <jcowan> zu'i means that the typical, usual, or customary (global default) value should be used.
22:33:32 <jcowan> s/know/know or infer
22:33:35 <q8uv> Hi
22:33:45 <sbp> hmm. so if you wished to supress all of the arguments, you'd have to repeat zi'o for each of the objects?
22:33:50 <sbp> hi q8uv
22:33:54 <Morbus> *** Morbus (~morbus@pool-64-223-182-243.man.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
22:34:20 <sbp> reminds me of the "that" string in "My Lords (says he) with humble Submission, That that I say is this; that, That that That Gentleman has advanced, is not That, that he should have proved to your Lordships." in The Spectator, http://tabula.rutgers.edu/spectator/text/june1711/no80.html
22:34:27 <jcowan> Yes, although that leaves you with an empty relation, so it's pointless. In most cases, zo'e/omission is what you want. When you go, you do in fact go from somewhere, though just where may not be worth mentioning.
22:34:35 <deltab> when did "suppress" become "supress"?
22:34:52 <deltab> I've not been receiving all my memos
22:35:19 <sbp> when diphthong became dipthong, perhaps?
22:35:26 <jcowan> You know the story of Henry Fielding vs. the Earl of Denbigh? See the logs.
22:35:30 <sbp> not to mention colour color
22:35:37 <jcowan> *That* was Noah Webster.
22:35:56 <sbp> heh. 2004-05-14 16:31:21 <jcowan_> Probably an attempt by some people to fix their "misspelled" names. The author Henry Fielding was once talking with the then Earl of Denbigh on how the latter's family name came to be spelled "Feilding". "I know not, my Lord", said Henry, "unless it were that my branch of the family were the first to learn how to spell."
22:36:01 <sbp> yeah, Webster was nuts
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22:37:23 <jcowan> But Axel Wijk (Regularized Inglish) was da man.
22:38:02 <deltab> anyway, my point was that gismu aren't verbs, verbs-used-as-nouns, etc.; but gismu-used-as-verbs, gismu-used-as-nouns, etc.
22:38:33 <jcowan> Very true, though I do think that their core meaning is verbish.
22:38:35 <sbp> "Axel Wijk (1902-1979) was a Swedish linguist who proposed a reform of English spelling: Regularized English (1959). His work remains of continuing relevance and usefulness [...]" Relevance and Usefulness? in a spelling reform? really? - http://www.spellingsociety.org/media/martin.html
22:40:30 <sbp> one could argue that words such a "love" in English have a distinct primitive meaning that gets refined by grammatical role
22:41:04 <jcowan> Rather than assigning a single spelling to each sound, he assigns a small number of sounds (ideally only one) to each letter/digraph/trigraph/tetragraph according to the existing principles of English spelling.
22:41:05 <sbp> s/ a / as /
22:41:13 <jcowan> Thus it is a true reform, not a revolution.
22:41:53 <sbp> that's somewhat better then
22:41:55 <jcowan> In order to do that, he had to chase down the nine different ways of pronouncing "-ough" in English, a work that took him fifty years.
22:42:06 <Morbus> *** Morbus has quit (Client Quit)
22:42:20 <sbp> yeah. I like Bryson's example of "chough"
22:42:20 <jcowan> He kept the spelling of "though" and changed all the ones with different pronunciations.
22:42:51 <jcowan> Rhymes with "enough", no?
22:42:55 <sbp> it does
22:43:31 <sbp> it'd be nice to do a wide survey of what the expected pronunciation is for people who aren't aware of the word
22:43:38 <jcowan> I cheated.
22:43:50 <sbp> oh? dictionary lookup?
22:44:11 <sbp> * sbp decides that a street survey would be the best idea...
22:44:12 <jcowan> Yes.
22:44:30 <sbp> in a wifiless area, moreover
22:44:36 <jcowan> My mother surveyed the pron. of streetcar conductors in the 1940's of Goethe Street in Detroit.
22:44:50 <jcowan> Geetee was the most common, but Go-eeth not unheard-of.
22:45:00 <jcowan> s/Geetee/Geethee
22:45:10 <sbp> how many separate pronunciations were there?
22:46:00 <jcowan> about five, I think
22:46:52 <jcowan> Tough, though, enough, cough, plough, thorough, hough, hiccough, and borough for people who don't rhyme it with thorough.
22:47:04 <kpreid> jcowan: I'm mildly curious why you aren't in #lojban
22:47:13 <jcowan> I don't speak Lojban very well, ironically.
22:47:21 <jcowan> I can't remember the *@#$* vocabulary.
22:47:24 <jeremiah> *** jeremiah (~chatzilla@ip68-228-138-252.hr.hr.cox.net) has joined #swhack
22:47:37 <jcowan> Anyhow, local time is 1845 and I've got to go home and cook.
22:48:01 <sbp> many thanks for the chat! rather a lot to look up in the wake of it
22:48:17 <jcowan> It's been fun.
22:48:21 <jcowan> *** jcowan is now known as jcowan-afk
22:48:45 <sbp> * sbp is glad he was actually around this time
22:49:21 <jcowan-afk> s/Tough/Through. I thought that looked wrong.
22:49:53 <sbp> The Tough of Pooh
22:50:37 <libby> *** libby has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:51:27 <sbp> * sbp should probably try to digestify some of tonight's chat into a Swhack Summary or weblog post or *something*
22:52:16 <Morbus> *** Morbus (~morbus@pool-64-223-182-243.man.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
22:58:21 <q8uv> Booo! http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004223126,,00.html
22:59:27 <q8uv> Monty: Tell AaronSw "Text2Html and Markdown rule."
22:59:28 <Monty> q8uv: Okay, I'll tell AaronSw that next time I see them...
23:01:27 <q8uv> Monty: Tell AaronSw "Whoops, html2text. <insert wit>"
23:01:28 <Monty> q8uv: Okay, I'll tell AaronSw that next time I see them...
23:02:34 <sbp> you should've /nick d8uv'd and then said "Whoops, I think he meant html2text."
23:03:08 <q8uv> You should /nick d8uv.
23:03:34 <sbp> and lose idle time on #IdleRPG? I think not!
23:04:18 <JibberJim> hmm, but you've only been around for about 20 mins so who cares?
23:06:31 <sbp> yeah, well... blame dircproxy
23:06:48 <sbp> though actually it starts you off from where you left off
23:06:49 <JibberJim> bad workman and his tools huh?
23:07:14 <sbp> maybe. if I was connecting straight from dialup, it'd certainly be worse
23:20:12 <q8uv> And now, d8uv enterprises presents:
23:20:50 <q8uv> "Shakespeare's 'Romeo And Juliet' Condensed Into A Single Syllable"
23:21:04 <q8uv> * q8uv clears throat
23:21:12 <q8uv> oom
23:22:38 <JibberJim> hmm, I feel that doesn't really bring out the comedies so well.
23:22:53 <JibberJim> The tragedies though, it's just so powerful.
23:23:59 <q8uv> Well, the voice raises like the syllable is a question.
23:24:05 <q8uv> Kinda like "oom?"
23:25:04 <AaronSw> thanks, d8uv
23:25:04 <Monty> Hey AaronSw, q8uv asked me to tell you: "Whoops, html2text. <insert wit>" [Thu May 20 00:01:27 BST 2004]
23:25:38 <q8uv> No problem. Monty will say something else to you.
23:25:39 <Monty> its relevance.
23:25:40 <JibberJim> Ah right, yeah I guess I'll need to hear the performance live.
23:25:44 <AaronSw> * AaronSw -> dinner
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23:35:13 <themaximus> *** themaximus (~Max@roc-24-169-188-175.rochester.rr.com) has joined #swhack
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23:41:23 <sbp> heh! I like that R&J
23:52:44 <q8uv> Monty! What did you do to my fish?
23:52:55 <Monty> i coup'd everyone, not today though language lacks numerals, IIRC, so couldn't climb out just do i, nor is 0.8? I buy books examples from southern finland.. and Welsh that my ko'a = stdlib.Ocean; then
23:53:31 <AaronSw> Can anyone think of conservative positions that have won? http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/001244
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23:56:54 <sbp> keep the pound
23:58:02 <sbp> opinion here does fluctuate quite a bit, though, on that. but we still have the pound, and will do for a while yet
23:58:53 <AaronSw> *** AaronSw has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:59:27 <sbp> and anyway, that's fairly harmless: not like slavery
