00:04:41 <themaximus> *** themaximus (~Max@roc-24-169-188-175.rochester.rr.com) has joined #swhack
00:05:43 <kandinski> I love OpenOffice.org
00:06:17 <kandinski> It could still be better, but hey, I can improve it all I want!
00:06:38 <kandinski> How unlike a boy/girlfriend!
00:08:19 <redmonk> *** redmonk has quit ("Quitting")
00:28:16 <kpreid> *** kpreid has left #swhack
00:42:30 <kandinski> heh, South park
00:42:43 <kandinski> <cut to IN: School Room>
00:43:10 <kandinski> <TEACHER> "And this, kids, is how you can tell a prostitute from a policewoman"
00:43:21 <thelsdj> bahah my infobot just said something veyr interesting, i said 'dumbass' and it said 'dumbass is at http://www.scripting.com/' hah
00:44:17 <kandinski> no, really?
00:44:30 <kandinski> what is an infobot?
00:44:36 <kandinski> * kandinski drools
00:44:37 <thelsdj> i'm not even sure how that got in there, i don't remember putting it there myself
00:44:47 <thelsdj> infobot is an irc bot that you add factoids to
00:44:51 <thelsdj> like if someone says 'foo is bar'
00:45:00 <thelsdj> later you can ask it what is foo? and it will tell you bar
00:46:10 <Morbus> *** Morbus (~morbus@pool-64-222-174-239.man.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
00:46:17 <kandinski> so someone must have primed it with "dumbass is http://scripting.com/?
00:46:36 <kandinski> I guess if we say it enough times, Monty will end up picking it up
00:46:38 <Monty> bunched dg's pterodactyl :P
00:46:59 <kandinski> well, for large values of "eventually", at any rate
00:47:59 <pir_away> *** pir_away is now known as pir
00:48:17 <Morbus> kandinski: got a second?
00:48:27 <Morbus> [20:46] <Morbus> http://gamegrene.com/ vs. http://64.222.174.239:8888/
00:48:27 <Morbus> [20:46] <Morbus> curved edges or not?
00:48:27 <Morbus> [20:47] <Morbus> i'm redoing it in css, and curves under css is a cross-platform pain
00:48:44 <Sunir> *** Sunir (SunirShah@CPE000bdbd8669e-CM000f9f7c349a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #swhack
00:49:19 <JibberJim> no curves, curves are bad - other than on a woman
00:49:54 <kandinski> yes, Morbus, I am with you
00:50:59 <kandinski> yes, seems someone stole your templates, right?
00:51:25 <Morbus> kandinski: eh?
00:51:30 <Morbus> no one stole my templates.
00:51:40 <Morbus> one is the live site, the other is my dev box ;)
00:51:49 <pir> curves look great, but are indeed a pain to do.
00:52:44 <kandinski> Morbus: ah, so the question was?
00:53:02 <Morbus> curved edges or not?
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00:53:53 <kandinski> sorry. Well, they are very subtle...
00:54:14 <kandinski> I couldn't see them the first time
00:54:25 <kandinski> well, I am sleepy to exhaustion
00:54:50 <Morbus> oop.
00:54:51 <Morbus> *** Morbus has quit ("http://disobey.com/")
00:55:07 <kandinski> I will say that, unless you are going to have a bigger margin that shows the curved edges better, they do not make or break the design
00:55:14 <kandinski> in case you a...
01:00:44 <kandinski> Phenny, tell Morbus unless you are going to have a bigger margin that shows the curved edges better, they do not make or break the design
01:01:57 <kandinski> Phenny, tell Morbus and, in case you go with the curved edges, I can see them perfectly well in konq, running Debian Sid's KDE 3.3
01:02:15 <thelsdj> kandinski: ya at some point someone primed it with that dumbass info but funny thing is i don't remember doing it myself and i don't think i've run it on any tech related servers, mostly teen chat rooms
01:02:36 <thelsdj> my infobot has 144,000 factoids
01:03:40 <kandinski> jilly, for the record: you ROCK
01:04:07 <jillzilla> thanks. I'm feeling pretty horrible today and that's a bit of salve. :)
01:04:31 <d8uv> I think my cat just puked in my bed.
01:04:40 <jillzilla> * jillzilla makes a note that she is better off that d8uv
01:04:52 <pir> better off than his cat, too.
01:07:58 <kandinski> d8uv, how is your diaphragm/lung_chest_area?
01:08:15 <kandinski> hmmm
01:08:35 <kandinski> go out now!
01:08:42 <kandinski> err, right,
01:08:49 <kandinski> for the record: I am an ass
01:09:20 <kandinski> I mean, d8uv's cat: go out now!
01:10:58 <kandinski> but the doctor would clearly recommend slack, in any case
01:14:08 <jillzilla> One odd thing that's been happening for the last several days is that I've had a really hard time dealing with people being rude or mean to me.
01:14:20 <kandinski> good judgement call
01:14:36 <kandinski> oops again
01:15:14 <jillzilla> Like on Saturday, when I was riding to Palo Alto to do the moviebinge, I was riding down the street and there was a man all decked out in bicycle clothing riding along in the middle of the lane.
01:15:23 <kandinski> hey, have to go
01:15:28 <jillzilla> later, kandinski!
01:15:33 <kandinski> bye all, and good night/evening
01:15:39 <pir> phenny, tell Morbus definitely the curves, the curves! and they look fine both in IE6 and opera7 on XP.
01:15:39 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell morbus that when they're around.
01:15:44 <kandinski> take care, pretty!
01:15:46 <jillzilla> I called out, "I'm on your left" to indicate I was going to pass him, which is normal procedure in these parts.
01:15:47 <pir> bye kandinski!
01:15:52 <jillzilla> * jillzilla waves
01:16:44 <jillzilla> Anyway, it turned out he was wearing headphones (which is both illegal and dumb). So he heard that someone was saying something and lifted the earphone off one ear and called out, "What?"
01:17:14 <jillzilla> By then I was just about to pass him. I called, "I'm on your left!" again but by then I was much closer than I would normally be when I called that.
01:18:01 <jillzilla> He swerved to the left, I think accidentally, while I was passing him. I said, "Aiee!" or something in case he didn't know I was there, swerved a bit myself, and then completed the pass.
01:18:24 <jillzilla> But he was really pissed off about this, apparently. He shouted angrily, "How about a little SPACE on the left, BITCH?!?"
01:18:35 <pir> sheesh.
01:18:50 <jillzilla> This is a situation where I was pretty clearly not in the wrong. Or if I was, it was a very minimal wrong.
01:19:16 <pir> no, he was in the wrong. bloody headphones and just noodling along in the middle of the lane.
01:19:17 <jillzilla> Normally I'm pretty good at turning these things into stories and not worrying about them.
01:19:22 <jillzilla> Yes, exactly.
01:19:25 <kandinski> yet another example of a person who neither deserves nor feel_the_need_for his knees
01:20:03 <jillzilla> I actually responded pretty well. I turned to him, looking astonished, and said, "Do you have a problem?"
01:20:12 <jillzilla> He said, with hostility, "Yeah, YOU!"
01:20:34 <jillzilla> I said, "Wow, that sucks," or something like that, and rode on.
01:20:45 <jillzilla> Not a brilliant response, but not horrible either.
01:21:03 <jillzilla> But it's been nagging at me. I've been tormented trying to think of what-i-should-have-said.
01:21:21 <jillzilla> Also, at the end of last week...argh, I'll be right back.
01:22:04 <pir> i do not understand why some people react to being caught in a mistake with such a total overreaction of aggression. dickwad.
01:22:42 <kandinski> (glowering) "well, I CAN be your SOLUTION too, if that is what you REALLY want"
01:23:12 <kandinski> of course, it is easy when you are at home and rested
01:23:17 <kandinski> he was a dickwad
01:23:34 <kandinski> well, *is* a dickwad
01:23:48 <kandinski> ok, really going now
01:24:12 <pir> he probably feels terribly guilty now and is searching for jill on all the bike paths of the bay area to throw himself on her mercy.
01:24:22 <kandinski> he should
01:27:30 <jillzilla> * jillzilla giggles
01:28:00 <pir> he's putting up flyers on poles even as we speak!
01:28:20 <pir> (the czechs beat him up when he tried that with them.)
01:31:23 <jillzilla> He probably feels as self-righteous as I do. He's probably telling the story of how he was riding along minding his own business when this asshole whizzed by him on the left really really close.
01:32:16 <woundown> *** woundown has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
01:32:23 <jillzilla> And that's the part that I'm getting fixated on.
01:32:43 <jillzilla> If he probably feels self-righteous, and I am at least sometimes feeling self-righteous, how do I know I'm right?
01:33:25 <jillzilla> And what if I'm not?
01:33:54 <jillzilla> Actually, that one is relatively easy. I was just passing another cyclist, for heaven's sake.
01:34:02 <pir> yeah. :)
01:34:10 <pir> i think i file such stuff under "shit happens".
01:34:25 <pir> nobody got hurt.
01:34:27 <jillzilla> Normally I do too. This is why I'm concerned that it's still bugging me.
01:34:46 <sbp> jill
01:34:50 <pir> yeah, it sounds to me like you're somewhat stressed in general maybe.
01:34:58 <sbp> DNA told this story once about a thing that's in HHG
01:34:58 <pir> i get more sensitive when i am stressed.
01:35:08 <sbp> you probably remember it if you've read HHG
01:35:14 <jillzilla> And if we had called the police, his headphones would have been clear evidence that he wasn't riding with reasonable care.
01:35:17 <jillzilla> HHG?
01:35:17 <sbp> it's the part where someone is stealing his biscuits
01:35:24 <sbp> HitchHiker's Guide
01:35:27 <sbp> listen, this is important
01:35:35 <sbp> do you remember?
01:35:40 <sbp> or shall I tell the story?
01:35:40 <jillzilla> yeah, I think I must be very stressed, and that's how I am too -- freaky about little stuff because of background stress.
01:35:48 <jillzilla> give me another reminder
01:36:11 <sbp> okay. so this actually happened to DNA, but he wrote it up in HHG. the version where it actually happens is funnier because it actually happened
01:36:14 <jillzilla> Would it be too much to tell another story of Someone Being Mean, one that's less clearcut?
01:36:23 <jillzilla> I don't want to bore people.
01:36:29 <sbp> he was sitting waiting for a train at a cafe table
01:36:37 <sbp> listen!
01:36:42 <jillzilla> listening!
01:36:46 <sbp> this is not a non sequitur
01:36:50 <jillzilla> heh
01:36:56 <pir> (and i am not bored.)
01:37:04 <jillzilla> * jillzilla notes that only sbp has to label his comments with "this is not a non sequitur"
01:37:09 <jillzilla> hee
01:37:12 <pir> *heh*.
01:37:15 <sbp> so he bought some biscuits, and he sat them on the table, and some other guy (hehe) comes and sits down opposite him
01:37:23 <jillzilla> Oh, THIS story! This story is great!
01:37:32 <sbp> DNA takes one of his biscuits that he'd just opened, and eats it
01:37:37 <sbp> ahh, good, you do know it
01:37:47 <jillzilla> I've heard it in other sources too
01:37:52 <sbp> well, the most interesting part for me was DNA's summary of the event, and I think it applies to your situation too:
01:37:56 <jillzilla> * jillzilla listens
01:38:30 <sbp> (paraphrasing) "The funniest thing about it for me is that somewhere, hundreds of miles away, there is a guy telling exactly the same story as me, except that he doesn't have the punchline."
01:38:45 <jillzilla> * jillzilla laughs
01:38:50 <jillzilla> But how does it apply?
01:39:03 <sbp> you know you were in the right; he just believes he was
01:39:21 <jillzilla> heh
01:39:43 <jillzilla> though for DNA it was the other way around, as I recall, so his embarrassment is what makes it a good story.
01:40:08 <sbp> yeah. I wouldn't recommend writing a(nother) sequel to HHG from your story
01:40:43 <jillzilla> Another thing about DNA's story is that both people were unfailingly civil to one another, which is part of what makes it a good story.
01:40:47 <jillzilla> Um, pir, do you know this story?
01:40:48 <sbp> anyway, some people are just JERKS. think what Ash would do!
01:40:53 <jillzilla> WWAD
01:40:58 <sbp> heheh
01:40:59 <jillzilla> What Would Ash Do
01:41:09 <jillzilla> * jillzilla tattoos WWAD on her knuckles
01:41:29 <sbp> * sbp does the same but with temporary tattoos, because that's what he thinks Ash would do
01:41:38 <sbp> actually, ASh would get "BOFH" done
01:41:42 <sbp> s/ASh/Ash/
01:41:42 <jillzilla> and DORK
01:41:46 <sbp> haha
01:41:47 <sbp> yeah
01:41:49 <jillzilla> or KABOOM
01:41:59 <sbp> er. might be a bit difficult, that one
01:42:10 <sbp> BOOM I can envisage
01:42:10 <jillzilla> You don't know how many knuckles Ash has.
01:42:20 <pir> * pir doesn't know the story (nor what Ash would do, and what those CAPITALISED things are).
01:42:21 <sbp> hmm... that's a point. a rather creepily scary point
01:42:22 <jillzilla> How do you think he types so fast?
01:42:27 <sbp> aha!
01:42:34 <sbp> I thought he'd trained a rabbit to help him
01:42:39 <jillzilla> Oh, we're imitating Ash's style. He often imitates jeffk.
01:42:47 <sbp> YEAH
01:42:55 <jillzilla> http://somethingawful.com/jeffk/
01:42:57 <sbp> ALSO
01:43:00 <sbp> BSD ROCKS
01:43:08 <sbp> kekeke
01:43:27 <sbp> so Jill, choice:
01:43:29 <bjoern_h> *** bjoern_h (~bjoern@dsl-082-083-167-062.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
01:43:34 <sbp> * tell your Other Story
01:43:39 <sbp> * tell pir the whole DNA thing
01:43:48 <sbp> --- END CHOICE ---
01:43:58 <sbp> oh, also:
01:43:58 <jillzilla> Well, I'm selfish and want to tell my other story.
01:44:00 <sbp> * feel better
01:44:05 <jillzilla> I already feel better.
01:44:06 <eikeon> *** eikeon (~eikeon@pcp08443104pcs.flrdav01.dc.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
01:44:06 <sbp> but you must take that option first before the others
01:44:11 <jillzilla> Done!
01:44:14 <sbp> excellent ** 5/pi
01:44:45 <pir> tell your other story. i know you, so i care more. :)
01:45:06 <jillzilla> So I've been in a support group for the last couple of years, an online support group that is a series of mailing lists.
01:45:15 <sbp> oh, I like the pole vs. czech thing, incidentally, even if no one else laughed because they're all PC up the wazoo
01:45:31 <jillzilla> The support group is based on a series of books written by a nutritionist whom I shall call N, N for nutritionist.
01:45:44 <sbp> ooh, a mmnemonic
01:45:51 <jillzilla> oh, I was like, "rimshot!" for the pole vs czech thing
01:45:59 <sbp> one m
01:46:05 <jillzilla> I like it better with two m's
01:46:13 <sbp> yeah, it's more mmic
01:46:29 <sbp> sorry to digress you. proceed
01:46:30 <jillzilla> And the nutritionist is deeply involved in these mailing lists.
01:46:56 <jillzilla> Now, I've been a relatively quiet regular for a couple of years. Posting a little, reading a lot, but N does know who I am.
01:47:27 <sbp> phenny: tell sbp to ask jillzilla for N's autograph when she is done
01:47:28 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell sbp that when they're around.
01:47:28 <phenny> sbp: sbp told me to tell you: to ask jillzilla for N's autograph when she is done (at 2004-06-02 01:47:27.581212)
01:47:29 <jillzilla> Not long ago, one of the people on one of the lists started a question she was asking with "Ladies, [...rest of message...}"
01:47:32 <sbp> NOT YET
01:48:06 <pir> *sigh*.
01:48:28 <jillzilla> And I decided to send email suggesting that we don't know if the group is all-female or not, and that as a woman on a lot of groups often assumed to be all male, I found that kind of uncomfortable, and asked if she would consider another salutation.
01:48:35 <sbp> it wasn't ironic? kandinski comes in and says "hi ladies!" oftentimes
01:48:43 <jillzilla> The person I sent this mail to replied on list.
01:48:50 <jillzilla> And flamed me vigorously.
01:48:58 <sbp> ooh, yeah that's really annoying when people repost to lists
01:49:17 <pir> dickwad person.
01:49:27 <pir> oh, sorry. lady dickwad.
01:49:40 <jillzilla> * jillzilla laughs. That sounds like an antiperspirant. "Try Lady Dickwad!"
01:49:42 <bjoern_> *** bjoern_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
01:50:08 <pir> strong enough for kandinski, but made for stupid list members.
01:50:53 <sbp> there was a legendary occasion on www-html when some guy just went nuts and lots of people were asking him off-list to tone it down a bit; he replied to them on list in the following manner: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2002Feb/0016 (in one he had the brilliant line "PLEASE WAKE UP YOUR IDEAS AND STOP AT THE SOURCE")#
01:51:39 <jillzilla> I just reread the message, and it wasn't really strong flaming.
01:51:54 <jillzilla> She said she was attempting to be respectful, and had never seen a man post.
01:52:04 <jillzilla> (which is fine with me, btw -- that's her choice to make)
01:52:20 <pir> that's not flamey to me at all. :)
01:52:31 <sbp> "Ladies and Possible Lurking Gentlemen," doesn't sound as good
01:52:39 <jillzilla> And then she criticized salutations like "hey girls" and "hey gals" ...heck, this was public. I'll just copy it.
01:52:45 <jillzilla> Yesterday morning I got a post from Jill regarding my addressing the
01:52:45 <jillzilla> members of this group as Dear Ladies. I was told I was being
01:52:45 <jillzilla> exclusive as this wasn't a women only group. I may have deleted it
01:52:45 <jillzilla> accidentally as when I went to respond last nite, the message was no
01:52:45 <jillzilla> longer on my computer. So I will have to respond here.
01:52:48 <jillzilla> First of all, I was attempting to be respectful and specific. I have
01:52:50 <jillzilla> yet to see any man post on this group site.
01:52:54 <jillzilla> Second, if we are being inclusive, let me state that in the last
01:52:56 <jillzilla> year and a half I have seen women on the community forum address all
01:52:58 <jillzilla> the members as "You guys" and they have never been criticized for
01:53:00 <jillzilla> it. Or, "Hey girls/gals". Both of these salutations are inaccurate
01:53:02 <jillzilla> and offensive to me as a woman. But this happens all the time and I
01:53:04 <jillzilla> seem to be the only one who notices.
01:53:08 <jillzilla> As women, we are taught not to respect ourselves every day. And if
01:53:10 <jillzilla> you do demand respect, you are frequently treated as a trouble
01:53:12 <jillzilla> maker.
01:53:18 <jillzilla> So just for the record, Jill, if you want to criticize, that's fine,
01:53:20 <jillzilla> just be consistent, ok?
01:53:22 <jillzilla> E.
01:53:24 <jillzilla> .
01:53:26 <jillzilla> I'm not sure where the bit about "As women, we are taught not to respect ourselves every day" came from.
01:53:35 <sbp> wtf? "I deleted someone's private message to me, so I will blab about it on the list instead because I am a dork of the highest order k thx"
01:53:42 <jillzilla> Basically, this wouldn't bother me at all in private email. But wtf was this putting it on the list?
01:53:55 <pir> ah, she doesn't know how to work her computer.
01:54:19 <jillzilla> If she'd lost my address she could post to the list saying, "Jill, I lost your address, please send me mail" which would be a bit silly but not like responding to a private message on-list.
01:54:42 <pir> yeah, but she doesn't know netiquette from her asshole, i imagine.
01:54:52 <sbp> her argument isn't all that logical either
01:55:31 <jillzilla> Her argument doesn't make much sense, but that's fine. All I wanted was for her to consider her salutations. If she decided to keep using "Ladies,", well, I'm not the list cop, and I don't really care that much.
01:55:33 <sbp> but it's more within the range of tolerable dipshittishness than reposting private conversations
01:56:01 <jillzilla> The culture of this group is not about being extremely intelligent.
01:56:05 <pir> and it was something list-related, so it sorta makes sense that she'd post it. that whole message spells to me "does not understand a lot of things i take for granted".
01:56:06 <jillzilla> It's not a geek group.
01:56:21 <pir> yeah, it sounds like any other mainstream people group i know.
01:56:28 <jillzilla> Yeah.
01:56:31 <pir> that she even knew the diff between email and list mail is astounding.
01:56:39 <sbp> yeah
01:56:45 <jillzilla> Well, she did say "I got a post from Jill"
01:56:58 <pir> and she probably is used to communicate indirectly.
01:57:09 <sbp> ah, so she might've assumed that it was list post to her only or something weird like that
01:57:09 <jillzilla> Sorry, I didn't understand that. What?
01:57:11 <pir> where "consider" stands for "you should do this, but i am too polite to say so".
01:57:20 <jillzilla> Yes, I thought of that.
01:57:30 <jillzilla> Her response does seem to indicate she thought I was ordering her around.
01:57:35 <pir> yup.
01:57:39 <jillzilla> Which I was not by any means intending to do.
01:57:48 <jillzilla> Here's my response:
01:57:50 <jillzilla> [[[
01:57:54 <jillzilla> I am taken aback to read this here. I made a polite request to keep
01:57:54 <jillzilla> in mind that this isn't a women-only mailing list. I made this request in
01:57:54 <jillzilla> private email because I considered it inappropriate for a non-moderator
01:57:54 <jillzilla> to make it on the group. As I still consider this an inappropriate
01:57:54 <jillzilla> discussion for this group, I will not respond to the accusations
01:57:55 <jillzilla> in this response.
01:57:59 <jillzilla> I meant my request to be a gentle reminder, E. I am sorry it caused so
01:58:01 <jillzilla> much stress for you and hope you are feeling better.
01:58:05 <jillzilla> Jill
01:58:07 <jillzilla> ]]]
01:58:20 <sbp> heh
01:58:28 <jillzilla> Note that I made it clear that I don't consider myself an authority figure on this group (deferring to moderators, etc).
01:58:35 <pir> *nod*.
01:58:36 <sbp> the old "ah, you are mentally anguished" defence
01:58:47 <pir> yeah, i was wondering whether she'd read it like that.
01:58:47 <jillzilla> Yeah, I'm concerned that it came off as snippy that way.
01:59:03 <jillzilla> I have no idea whether she responded or not, actually.
01:59:11 <jillzilla> Because soon after, N jumped in.
01:59:12 <sbp> I'd've phrased the original off-list post as "-> Ladies <- WTF? LOL I AM MAN!"
01:59:22 <pir> * pir laughs --
01:59:27 <sbp> but that wasn't really an option for you since you're a) intelligent b) female
01:59:47 <pir> i usually reply to it with the "life of brian" line. "i'm not!"
02:00:14 <jillzilla> A day or so later, I realized that the best response would have been just to start using the salutation "Gentlemen,"
02:00:17 <jillzilla> hehehehe
02:00:21 <sbp> hehehe
02:00:24 <pir> yeah, that would have been good.
02:00:25 <jillzilla> that would have been SO MUCH COOLER than what I did.
02:00:31 <pir> next time!
02:00:40 <sbp> * sbp scribbles down notes
02:01:11 <jillzilla> N came in and scolded me on the list.
02:01:22 <sbp> aw
02:01:24 <pir> *sigh*.
02:01:26 <jillzilla> She told me, "it is very inappropriate for a list member to instruct another person
02:01:26 <jillzilla> about about how to behave on the list via an off line email.
02:01:26 <jillzilla> "
02:01:33 <jillzilla> That felt incredibly unfair to me.
02:01:33 <kpreid> *** kpreid (~kpreid@69-169-139-186.bflony.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
02:01:46 <jillzilla> She also implied that I was an "ardent feminist", which I found very frustrating.
02:01:46 <pir> i bet E went and whined to N.
02:01:51 <jillzilla> Yeah, I suspect so.
02:02:07 <sbp> "-> inappropriate <- WTF? LOL I AM SUPREME COURT JUDGE!"
02:02:19 <pir> at least she didn't accuse of of being politically correct.
02:02:27 <sbp> who's of?
02:02:32 <jillzilla> Well, she is a bona fide authority figure on these groups.
02:02:37 <pir> i am ready to kill anyone who uses that term.
02:02:46 <sbp> bona fide?
02:03:00 <pir> a real list mom. awww.
02:03:06 <jillzilla> Yeah, "politically correct" just means "I'm sneering at you"
02:03:19 <jillzilla> Yeah, "politically correct" just means "I'm sneering at you without addressing your concerns"
02:03:43 <pir> yeah. and it's almost always used by people who i'd just love to see homeless.
02:03:49 <jillzilla> heh
02:04:00 <jillzilla> You know, I remembered N's message as very harsh.
02:04:06 <jillzilla> But rereading it, I see that it's not.
02:04:07 <pir> in order to instill some compassion. :)
02:05:12 <jillzilla> I think I was alarmed by the situation -- it felt to me that I had behaved in a not-unreasonable way that people were free to disagree with, that E had rudely run to the group instead of responding like a grownup, that I had carefully refrained from acting in order not to turn the group into a flamefest, and that N had slapped me down.
02:05:24 <jillzilla> And I was really upset because it seemed like once N stepped in I had lost.
02:05:33 <jillzilla> Because N is the authority in these groups.
02:05:57 <pir> *nod*.
02:06:15 <jillzilla> And I felt that once N had turned against me, I had no future in this whole support group.
02:06:43 <jillzilla> The part that gets me is this: "it is very inappropriate for a list member to instruct another person
02:06:43 <jillzilla> about about how to behave on the list via an off line email.
02:06:43 <jillzilla> "
02:06:49 <jillzilla> (sorry to quote it twice)
02:07:05 <jillzilla> I'm really frustrated about this. I had no intention *whatsoever* of instructing someone.
02:07:16 <jillzilla> And I was careful to ask her to "consider" it, no more.
02:07:34 <sbp> er, it's also wrong. if they were being extremely abusive, instruction off-list would be okay I think
02:07:37 <jillzilla> But it seems that I've now been tagged with trying to boss someone around.
02:07:44 <jillzilla> Yes, but that wasn't the situation.
02:07:47 <sbp> nope
02:07:47 <jillzilla> She wasn't being abusive.
02:08:49 <jillzilla> N also said: "If any of you has a problem with how we are doing business on the list,
02:08:49 <jillzilla> I am very happy to here from you. I might not agree with you, I might
02:08:49 <jillzilla> not do what you want, but I will dialogue.
02:08:49 <jillzilla> "
02:09:21 <jillzilla> In other words, if you have a problem, instead of trying to do anything about it, talk to her and she will decide what should be done.
02:09:32 <jillzilla> And it's fine if she wants to run her groups that way.
02:09:38 <jillzilla> Seriously, I don't care.
02:09:46 <jillzilla> But I didn't do anything wrong!
02:09:55 <jillzilla> I just didn't realize that was part of the culture of these groups.
02:10:18 <jillzilla> I also think it's kind of stupid. I think N is the authority on the subject of the group, not on netiquette.
02:10:48 <pir> but she is a list mom! (translated: dictator)
02:10:50 <jillzilla> And if N had posted a new policy on gender salutations without scolding me, that would have been find.
02:10:53 <jillzilla> Heh. Yes.
02:11:19 <jillzilla> And I have a history of not doing particularly well with criticism from authority figures.
02:11:39 <pir> it sounds like both E and N read your "consider" as a demand, and then promptly reacted to that perception.
02:11:42 <jillzilla> So I'm wondering if I'm being totally unreasonable.
02:12:04 <pir> not to me. but i think your and their language is probably at odds.
02:12:14 <jillzilla> sigh.
02:12:17 <jillzilla> yeah, I think so too.
02:12:31 <jillzilla> I run into this all the time in mostly-female groups.
02:12:40 <pir> *heh*. me too.
02:13:31 <jillzilla> Even when I'm going out of my way to be respectful, people get angry and talk about how I'm being disrespectful.
02:14:09 <pir> *nod*.
02:14:17 <jillzilla> What do you do about it, pir?
02:14:30 <pir> go talk with men instead.
02:14:43 <jillzilla> sigh
02:14:44 <pir> (only half-kidding.)
02:14:46 <jillzilla> this is a recipe group
02:14:53 <jillzilla> there aren't many men
02:14:57 <pir> use a lot more weasel words.
02:15:10 <pir> i sometimes sound like my mouth is fuzzy i use so many weasel words.
02:15:15 <pir> and lots of smileys.
02:15:38 <pir> but for the most part i don't interact with people where i have to work so damn hard to be understood.
02:15:57 <jillzilla> This is the kind of group where half the messages are one-line replies saying, "That sounds great! I'll have to try it!"
02:15:58 <jillzilla> ARGH
02:16:05 <pir> yeah. *blork*.
02:16:14 <pir> i'd find another group.
02:16:20 <jillzilla> Yeah.
02:16:22 <pir> there've got to be thousands of recipe groups.
02:16:45 <jillzilla> I'm really tempted to follow up, though. I think I will follow up (according to my own principles) just to N and E.
02:16:52 <pir> or, maybe, if you really really like the group-
02:16:58 <pir> make a statement post.
02:17:10 <jillzilla> What do you have in mind?
02:17:10 <pir> where you explain yourself and ask for the assumption of good faith.
02:17:18 <jillzilla> * jillzilla nods. Yeah, I was thinking of that too.
02:17:38 <jillzilla> I haven't been able to think of an explanation that feels right, though.
02:18:30 <pir> probably best to start with apology for causing E to feel criticized.
02:18:33 <jillzilla> I don't want to explain it as a difference between masculine and feminine communication styles, because of the "ardent feminist" accusation.
02:18:54 <jillzilla> Yes, but it's also not acceptable to me to make it sound like I have bad social skills, because I don't.
02:18:57 <pir> and then explain that "consider" wasn't indirect code for "do this, you unedjucated redneck".
02:19:08 <pir> yeah, that's what usually keeps me from doing this.
02:19:37 <pir> i think i have pretty darn good social skills. just not for hypersensitive people. :)
02:19:56 <pir> the thing is, that my social skills actually suck for those sorts of people.
02:20:11 <jillzilla> I also don't want to say, "I've probably been hanging out too much with my boyfriend, the one who is probably diagnosable with Asperger's Syndrome and is accordingly extremely literal. I might be losing my indirect-talk skills to some extent."
02:20:37 <jillzilla> I can actually do okay with indirect-speak people in person.
02:20:38 <pir> i don't really _want_ to engage a lot in indirect talk. i don't like it.
02:20:48 <pir> if i know somebody well, that's ok.
02:20:54 <pir> but with strangers? *ugh*.
02:21:05 <jillzilla> Because I'm okay at showing nonverbally that I respect them.
02:21:15 <pir> ah, yes.
02:21:19 <jillzilla> Yeah, it's a lot of work to go through with strangers.
02:21:32 <pir> that's the part that doesn't come across online. not easily, that is.
02:21:33 <jillzilla> I'm also good at active listening and stuff.
02:21:44 <jillzilla> yeah.
02:22:15 <pir> you could just explain that it's a matter of speaking different social languages, but would they understand?
02:22:21 <jillzilla> Unlikely.[
02:22:51 <pir> yeah. :/ would N understand?
02:23:04 <jillzilla> N would be fine, I think, if I explained it.
02:23:25 <pir> then maybe send mail to N, since she's pretty much already said that that's how she wants such stuff handled?
02:23:34 <jillzilla> *nod*
02:23:47 <pir> and then N can maybe suggest what to say to E or the group.
02:24:18 <pir> but yeah, the whole thing sounds like you didn't really do anything wrong, but it was perceived as an attack.
02:24:20 <jillzilla> And that way I'm sucking up to N, too, which should make her feel better if she had concerns about me respecting her authority
02:24:44 <jillzilla> (which I do, regarding food. I don't regarding netiquette, but even there I accept that she gets to make the rules on her lists)
02:26:17 <pir> *nod*.
02:26:38 <jillzilla> I've been waking up thinking about this every day.
02:26:50 <jillzilla> When I'm on my bike, I have been going over it again and again.
02:26:56 <jillzilla> I'm not usually obsessive like this.
02:27:01 <jillzilla> I've been worrying.
02:27:33 <pir> i think you need a break. :)
02:27:47 <jillzilla> I've been worrying that maybe I was rude and just didn't realize it. I have a great terror of finding out that I've actually been barely tolerable socially for a long time, and I was the only one who didn't know.
02:28:05 <pir> well, _that_ is definitely not true!
02:28:38 <pir> though of course i am probably not the person whose vote counts there, *heh*.
02:28:45 <jillzilla> Or that I'm really quite self-righteous and intolerant (like my mother, since there are a few ways in which I'm like her).
02:28:52 <jillzilla> Heh. Yes, you've met me in person!
02:29:05 <jillzilla> On multiple occasions, even!
02:29:06 <pir> yeah, but i am barely tolerable socially! :)
02:29:14 <jillzilla> * jillzilla remembers the Indian restaurant in Otobicoke
02:29:19 <sbp> * sbp whoos as colinux works
02:29:22 <pir> you don't come across self-righteous and intolerant.
02:29:25 <jillzilla> Yeah, you don't count! :)
02:29:31 <jillzilla> I really don't think I am.
02:29:48 <pir> i mean, consider...
02:30:01 <jillzilla> But you know, I do get easily thrown by situations where people ...
02:30:28 <pir> there's self-righteous and intolerant for ya.
02:30:35 <pir> welcome. :)
02:30:39 <jillzilla> The really striking thing is that...oh, you don't know that I went to massage school.
02:30:49 <jillzilla> I went to massage school for a year and a half, graduated, am now a CMT.
02:30:54 <pir> yeah, i do know. well, i know you were going to.
02:31:04 <jillzilla> Ah, yeah, that's about when I left usenet.
02:31:19 <jillzilla> In the last few months of massage school, I had some kind of breakdown.
02:31:27 <jillzilla> Stopped being able to tolerate other people.
02:31:33 <pir> *ouch*.
02:31:55 <jillzilla> Everything they did affected me hugely. It was like not having any skin and being at the mercy of every tiny thing in the environment.
02:32:21 <jillzilla> Going grocery shopping was torture. I had to restrain myself from screaming at some poor woman standing at the bulk foods section, just for standing there.
02:32:55 <jillzilla> Because it was driving me CRAZY that she was standing there, and I couldn't figure out how to get whatever I wanted to buy, or couldn't figure out the best way to go around her in the aisle, or somesuch.
02:33:05 <jillzilla> And this is in a North American supermarket, where the aisles are freakin' big.
02:33:25 <pir> that sounds like a pretty horrible way to be feeling.
02:33:26 <jillzilla> And what's been happening this weekend has felt extremely similar.
02:33:30 <jillzilla> Yeah, horrible indeed.
02:33:42 <jillzilla> I stopped being able to make new friends, because I found people so overwhelming.
02:33:53 <jillzilla> And I knew intellectually they weren't doing anything wrong.
02:34:03 <jillzilla> I was having startle reactions from things like wind chimes.
02:34:18 <jillzilla> It was like being extremely defensive.
02:34:56 <jillzilla> In massage school we had lots of times when we sat in a circle and went around the circle and everyone had theopportunity to say what they were feeling.
02:35:03 <jillzilla> I didn't want to talk about it.
02:35:09 <pir> *nod*.
02:35:11 <jillzilla> (so I didn't -- which was fine)
02:35:43 <jillzilla> And I am now looking at how astonishingly similar I felt this weekend while stewing over the exchange with E and N.
02:35:51 <jillzilla> Four years later.
02:36:31 <jillzilla> I think this is some kind of extreme reaction I have to receiving criticism that shows that my intentions were misunderstood.
02:36:40 <jillzilla> Because that happened a lot in massage school.
02:37:09 <pir> that sort of criticism seems really unfair.
02:37:12 <jillzilla> (also a female-dominated environment, run by female-style conversation rules)
02:37:19 <jillzilla> how so?
02:37:33 <pir> i don't mind criticism if i actually fucked up.
02:37:51 <pir> but if i didn't, and people should know better (like fellow students), then i feel unfairly maligned.
02:37:53 <jillzilla> * jillzilla hopes she isn't being hopelessly boring. (I get uncomfortable when I dominate a group with my stuff for a long time, and I could move somewhere else if need be)
02:38:01 <jillzilla> Yes, like that.
02:38:09 <pir> not boring me. not like anyone else was talking.
02:38:16 <jillzilla> * jillzilla relaxes a bit
02:38:17 <pir> they can always SAY SOMETHING.
02:38:20 <jillzilla> hehehe
02:38:38 <jillzilla> In massage school, I ran into serious cultural trouble from the beginning.
02:39:00 <jillzilla> I kept forgetting that one wasn't supposed to know anything about science.
02:39:15 <pir> *sigh*.
02:39:26 <pir> not like massage would have anything to do with anatomy, would it?
02:40:23 <jillzilla> Like the time in Anatomy and Physiology when we talked for a day or so about genetics, and the instructor said that she didn't know why traits were passed in some way, and I remembered that from high school biology, so I replied, "Oh, I do! I'm happy to explain it after class if anyone's interested!"
02:40:32 <jillzilla> A hush fell over the class (which was about 16 people)
02:40:46 <jillzilla> The instructor was surprised but unfazed, but my classmates seemed shocked.
02:40:56 <jillzilla> I realized that was a faux pas.
02:41:09 <pir> *gah*.
02:41:24 <jillzilla> The biggest faux pas I made was in first-quarter Shiatsu.
02:41:39 <pir> you brought a dog? :)
02:41:48 <pir> (sorry for bad pun)
02:41:58 <jillzilla> The instructor started talking about how Shiatsu used an Eastern philosophy, not a western one.
02:42:09 <jillzilla> (I totally missed the pun. didn't even hear it whiz by)
02:42:54 <pir> shitzu is a breed of dog with lots of foldy skin.
02:43:01 <pir> go on. :)
02:43:48 <jillzilla> She explained that in Western science, matter and energy were considered two completely different things, but in Eastern philosophy, they were correctly understood to be different aspects of the same underlying reality.
02:43:54 <jillzilla> I got really excited.
02:44:05 <jillzilla> Again, this was a very small class.
02:44:16 <eikeon> *** eikeon has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:45:27 <jillzilla> I jumped in with, "Oh, but that was in the time of Newton that that was believed! It was Einstein who showed that matter and energy are the same thing, I think in his paper on Special Relativity, around 1905 or so, I think. In fact, that's exactly what his most famous equation E=mc2 means! So actually, Western science has come around to believing the same thing!"
02:45:36 <jillzilla> Um, big mistake.
02:45:47 <pir> *heh*. *sigh*.
02:46:01 <kpreid> *cringe*
02:46:15 <jillzilla> Are you cringing at my lack of social skills, or at something else?
02:46:37 <jillzilla> I was honestly trying to reinforce what she was saying.
02:47:06 <jillzilla> But my classmates, and the instructor, interpreted it as being disruptive and argumentative and disrespectful.
02:47:28 <jillzilla> The instructor was quite annoyed.
02:47:36 <pir> *sigh*. man, it sucks to have teachers who don't know their shit.
02:48:04 <pir> and who are not willing to learn from a student.
02:48:07 <jillzilla> You see, I didn't do any science in college. I had decent high school physics and some biology. I consider myself scientifically very ignorant.
02:48:54 <jillzilla> If I thought there was a chance I was an expert in some field I wouldn't have said anything. For instance, if she gave a very oversimplified view of how computers work I would have stayed silent.
02:49:27 <pir> but you were excited because you actually knew something in a field in which you were not expert?
02:49:27 <jillzilla> But I had NO IDEA that I knew vastly more about science than anyone else in the room.
02:49:34 <jillzilla> No, I thought it was safe!
02:49:54 <jillzilla> I thought there was no way I could blow away everyone, since I never even had college courses in science, for heaven's sake.
02:50:03 <jillzilla> Didn't everyone have an idea of the basics?
02:50:06 <jillzilla> It would seem not.
02:50:35 <jillzilla> Does this make any sense? I am very careful to avoid nit-picking people about fields where I know a lot.
02:51:11 <jillzilla> But science is a field where I know very little, so I didn't think anything I knew would be unusual enough to be considered...what's the word...
02:51:14 <pir> i never thought about who goes to massage school, but i would have expected people to know high school science, i guess.
02:51:29 <jillzilla> Yeah, me too. We're both wrong. :)
02:52:11 <pir> i have lately determined that my gender is "geek".
02:52:11 <jillzilla> Anyway, I got a reputation for being bellicose.
02:52:16 <jillzilla> hehehehe.
02:52:28 <pir> and my preferred social interactions are with other geeks.
02:52:44 <pir> i boggle at you being seen as bellicose.
02:52:45 <jillzilla> I almost always seem to be too indirect for the direct groups, but too direct for the indirect groups. It drives me nuts.
02:53:13 <jillzilla> Thanks on the boggle statement. I've been tormented since then about how I can look so completely different in different situations.
02:53:34 <pir> i think you come across as self-confident and competent.
02:53:49 <pir> that might well be threatening to alot of people.
02:54:03 <jillzilla> I mean, my outburst on Einstein would have been considered enthusiastic, or maybe over-geeky or pedantic, but not offensive, in many other groups.
02:54:04 <pir> what E said about women there made me think of that.
02:54:11 <jillzilla> how so?
02:54:39 <jillzilla> You mean where she commented indirectly on how I was being disrespectful?
02:54:51 <pir> no, the other thing. *scrolls back*
02:55:26 <pir> "as women we are told every day not to respect ourselves."
02:55:44 <pir> i think you _do_ respect yourself, and it comes across.
02:55:49 <jillzilla> Oh.
02:55:57 <pir> it might well make others feel inferior.
02:55:59 <jillzilla> And maybe people find that unnerving?
02:56:00 <jillzilla> Ah.
02:56:05 <pir> yeah.
02:56:23 <pir> since i am a very enthusiastic person, i've run into that as well.
02:56:59 <pir> i really don't care to know something better than somebody else. i tend to just be excited when i figure something out. and i love sharing what i figure out.
02:57:09 <pir> it never occurs to me that it might make other people feel dumb.
02:57:28 <jillzilla> I'm dating someone who is a lot smarter than I am.
02:57:53 <jillzilla> Went to a good college and such (I didn't even apply, knowing that there was no way I'd be accepted).
02:58:18 <pir> yeah, i figure there are lots of people who're smarter than i am.
02:58:46 <pir> i don't live my life in a state of competition.
02:58:54 <pir> i just like knowledge and stuff.
02:59:19 <pir> figuring things out. making connections.
02:59:46 <jillzilla> I think a lot of "smart people" do get stuck in that competition thing, and that I have wasted some time there. I think it's because when one is smart enough to stand out, people pay attention to that, both positive and negative. And it feels threatening to lose that distinctiveness, even if one hates it.
02:59:46 <pir> it has always been frustrating to me when people have taken that and turned it into something negative.
02:59:53 <jillzilla> yeah, that makes sense.
03:00:31 <pir> well, and lots of smart people are assholes about it. :
03:00:33 <pir> :
03:00:37 <pir> :) dammit.
03:00:39 <jillzilla> Yeah.
03:01:10 <pir> so i can understand people who hear a certain language spoken and immediately think "another know-it-all".
03:01:25 <jillzilla> * jillzilla nods
03:01:49 <pir> but first impressions are not enough. there's got to be some thought before acting.
03:02:48 <jillzilla> Whew
03:02:51 <jillzilla> * jillzilla feels hugely better.
03:02:57 <pir> yay!
03:03:00 <jillzilla> :)
03:03:30 <pir> geek talk r00lz!
03:03:41 <jillzilla> hee hee
03:03:57 <jillzilla> I've cleared a lot away about why I've been so upset this weekend.
03:04:26 <pir> cool!
03:04:33 <jillzilla> The main thing that's left is the bit about how I react so violently (and self-destructively) to unjust criticism from authority figures.
03:05:07 <jillzilla> Losing all self-confidence and becoming self-loathing is not a particularly useful or constructive response to that.
03:05:19 <pir> *nod*.
03:05:19 <jillzilla> It also isn't particularly fair to those authorities.
03:05:54 <jillzilla> N's response had some good points and some bad points, but me going into a spiral of self-loathing and inability to bear other people is, um, extreme.
03:06:15 <pir> i used to react similarly, but my reasons are probably not comparable.
03:06:17 <jillzilla> But that's for another day.
03:06:30 <jillzilla> Is it something you'd like to discuss?
03:06:42 <jillzilla> (brb)
03:07:10 <pir> urm. not today. too much. but my mother was a paranoid schizophrenic, and that explains a lot about my weirder emotional reactions.
03:09:49 <jillzilla> Yeah, I knew that about your mother.
03:10:09 <jillzilla> (my best friend in high school's mother was also schizophrenic. very scary stuff)
03:10:26 <jillzilla> Some of my coworkers asked me to go to dinner with them.
03:10:34 <jillzilla> "maybe I'm not totally socially unbearable!" :)
03:10:37 <jillzilla> hee
03:11:24 <jillzilla> So I think I'll go off and eat something.
03:11:29 <pir> *grin*. of course not! enjoy yourself!
03:11:30 <jillzilla> * jillzilla feels light and unburdened
03:11:36 <pir> yay! :)
03:11:50 <jillzilla> Thanks for your listening and your valuable help sorting this out!
03:11:56 <jillzilla> * jillzilla waves, runs off
03:11:57 <pir> you're very welcome.
03:17:28 <pir> oh, and for the record, because there is an "anal" in "analyst" -- i was wrong. shitzu is a breed of dog, but with long hair, not with foldy skin -- that would be sharpei.
03:19:38 <sbp> networking
03:19:40 <sbp> in debian
03:19:42 <sbp> in colinux
03:19:44 <sbp> GRR
03:20:26 <sbp> I have tried surely every possible configuration
03:23:09 <sbp> <colinux> 100% packet loss
03:23:16 <sbp> <sbp> try this: (QWU£%)("UTIQWJTOIWQ$£TJWQ5
03:23:18 <sbp> <colinux> 100% packet loss
03:23:22 <sbp> <sbp> hmm
03:24:40 <pir> *urm*.
03:24:44 <sbp> whoo! 0% packet loss!
03:25:06 <sbp> don't worry, I tried configuration count($allPossibleConfigs) + 1
03:25:32 <sbp> muahahaha, etc.
03:27:44 <sbp> heh
03:27:45 <sbp> that's odd
03:27:51 <sbp> I just ran "apt-get update"
03:27:58 <sbp> and it didn't seem to enjoy its experience
03:28:02 <sbp> and it told me:
03:28:18 <sbp> "You may want to run apt-get update to correct these problems."
03:30:06 <sbp> hmm. DNS resolution error apparently, which is odd: ping www.google.com works, but no other domains do
03:30:40 <sbp> okay, microsoft resolves but doesn't respond
03:30:51 <sbp> * sbp sobs
03:32:42 <pir> * pir hands sbp a towel.
03:33:36 <Sunir> *** Sunir has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
03:33:42 <sbp> fixed that too
03:33:48 <sbp> but thanks
03:44:53 <sbp> samba++
03:46:43 <pir> *heh*. yes. samba is ultra-plus-good.
04:34:38 <d8uv> Hmm, Hi
04:35:44 <Ash> ASH FIXED IT
04:35:45 <Ash> YOU MEAN
04:35:52 <Ash> ehehe
04:35:59 <Ash> all d8uvs in the house say yeah
04:36:00 <Ash> etc
04:39:26 <d8uv> Yeah. Um
04:39:31 <d8uv> Today sucked.
04:39:33 <d8uv> etc
04:39:45 <Ash> excellent
04:40:39 <jillzilla> rowr
04:40:43 <jillzilla> what was sucky, d8uv?
04:40:48 <jillzilla> OH HI ASH WHASSUP
04:40:54 <Ash> hi jill!
04:41:00 <jillzilla> yo!
04:41:06 <d8uv> I slept all day and mowed the lawn. That's all.
04:41:09 <jillzilla> ah
04:41:14 <jillzilla> so it was...tedious?
04:41:19 <jillzilla> hey, Ash, I have a quote for you
04:41:54 <jillzilla> [[[ o I was pedaling along on my bicycle, towing a little kiddie trailer that contained my daughter, Sophie, and her friend Sofia. I like to tow Sophie when she has a friend with her, because they quickly forget that I'm up there pedaling, so I can listen in on their conversations and find out what is on the minds of 4-year-old children. Usually it's something like this:
04:41:54 <jillzilla> FIRST CHILD: You're a tree head! (Wild giggling)
04:41:56 <jillzilla> SECOND CHILD: No, YOU'RE a tree head! (Wild giggling)
04:42:02 <jillzilla> FIRST CHILD: You're a pine-cone head! (Wild giggling)
04:42:06 <jillzilla> SECOND CHILD: No, YOU'RE a pine-cone head! (Wild giggling)
04:42:10 <jillzilla> And so it goes, for mile after insight-filled mile. ]]] -Dave Barry
04:42:21 <jillzilla> *** jillzilla is now known as pineconehead
04:43:26 <Ash> hehehe
04:43:49 <Ash> lucia talks to EVERYONE
04:43:50 <Ash> it is crazy
04:43:55 <pineconehead> * pineconehead laughs
04:44:11 <pineconehead> That description fits my niece to a t also
04:44:48 <pineconehead> (to a t? to a tee? I don't know what the correct version of that phrase is.)
04:44:52 <Ash> tee
04:44:55 <pineconehead> hee
04:44:55 <Ash> or whatever.
04:44:58 <Ash> TEE HEE
04:45:02 <pineconehead> *** pineconehead is now known as jillzilla
04:45:13 <jillzilla> TEE ROWR
04:45:16 <Ash> Lucia is so funny with other kids
04:45:21 <jillzilla> oh?
04:45:27 <Ash> she's so dominant because she is constantly talking
04:46:19 <jillzilla> <Lucia> YAP YAP YAP
04:46:28 <jillzilla> <OtherKids> ......
04:46:55 <Ash> yeah
04:46:57 <Ash> it's funny
04:48:10 <Ash> at the airport a few months ago, she was waiting for baggage at the claim, and there was some other little boy there with his parents
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04:48:30 <Ash> and they were both super talkative, and were chattering the entire time
04:48:31 <Ash> eheheh
04:48:33 <jillzilla> * jillzilla laughs
04:48:35 <Ash> it was hilarious
04:48:44 <jillzilla> Is Adelaide talkative?
04:48:53 <Ash> adelaide doesn't do tons of talking yet
04:48:59 <Ash> due to Lucia most likely
04:48:59 <Ash> heh
04:49:19 <jillzilla> Lucia's doing enough talking for both of them, eh?
04:49:23 <Ash> yeah
04:49:25 <Ash> basically
04:49:26 <jillzilla> nraurgh.
04:49:34 <jillzilla> I'm trying to find out how much it would cost to join the YMCA
04:49:36 <Ash> adelaide knows what you're saying all the time, she just doesn't say a lot
04:49:46 <Ash> the YMCA is a total rip off
04:49:51 <jillzilla> (though I'm none of the above: young, male, nor Christian)
04:49:58 <Ash> (just kidding, i have no idea)
04:50:10 <jillzilla> So here's the page:
04:50:14 <jillzilla> http://www.ymcamidpen.org/textpage.php?b=4&p=membership
04:50:26 <jillzilla> And if I'm not mistaken, there's something pretty significant missing on that page.
04:50:33 <jillzilla> Like HOW MUCH ANYTHING BLOODY COSTS
04:50:53 <jillzilla> or have I gone blind?
04:50:54 <Ash> hee
04:50:56 <Ash> YOU'RE BLIND
04:51:02 <jillzilla> where is the information?
04:51:25 <Ash> probably want you to call
04:51:30 <jillzilla> Um, DUH
04:51:38 <jillzilla> That's what a WEB PAGE is for!
04:52:45 <Ash> http://www.towertheatre.com/membership.html
04:52:54 <Ash> V and I totally want to get the 'Panaflex' membership
04:52:56 <Ash> eheheh
04:53:14 <Ash> er, wait!
04:53:17 <Ash> that's not the one
04:53:20 <Ash> there's one that costs even more
04:53:27 <Ash> but you get free admission all the time
04:53:30 <Ash> (for two people)
04:53:34 <jillzilla> all the films you can slurp
04:53:39 <Ash> ALL YOU CAN SLURP
04:53:44 <Ash> amusing anecdote
04:53:49 <jillzilla> oh?
04:53:58 <Ash> lucia didn't quite grok how to pronounce "slurpee" when I first told her what it was
04:54:03 <Ash> and so now it is a "snorp"
04:54:09 <jillzilla> hee. "snorp"
04:54:22 <Ash> DADDY ARE YOU GOING TO GET ME A SNORP?!?!?
04:54:27 <jillzilla> the BF loves slurpees. Maybe I should teach him the hip up-to-date name for them.
04:54:31 <Ash> she thought a slurpee was the neatest thing ever
04:54:41 <Ash> but everyone knows the one true frozen beverage is parrot ice
04:54:51 <jillzilla> * jillzilla has never heard of that
04:55:04 <Ash> http://www.parrot-ice.com/
04:55:05 <Ash> it is the best
04:55:22 <Ash> I used to drink them all the time when I lived in Baton Rouge
04:55:26 <Ash> but they don't have them many places here
04:56:34 <Ash> it stays drinkable a lot longer than slurpees
04:56:41 <jillzilla> heh
04:56:46 <jillzilla> brb - gotta go get my laundry
04:56:50 <Ash> you don't drink 2 oz and then suddenly you have to start stirring it
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05:02:09 <sbp> *** sbp has changed the topic to: DADDY ARE YOU GOING TO GET ME A SNORP?!?!?
05:02:23 <sbp> I totally forget about this window sometimes
05:02:39 <sbp> it's like "hmm, it's quiet today in #sbp--I wonder where everybody is?"
05:03:08 <sbp> and then I tab over to find that Ash and jillzilla and d8uv have been going at it behind by back together with insight and wit and drollity
05:12:41 <d8uv> sbp: YOU WANNA FIGHT ABOUT IT@!?1
05:14:37 <sbp> @google fight sbp d8uv
05:14:45 <sbp> APPARENTLY NOT
05:15:45 <sbp> d8uv: if you are on XP with no linux joy around and you're fed up with cygwin being a pain the ass, colinux + debian or distro of your choice + samba + ssh + putty is joy
05:15:45 <d8uv> ALL RIGHT THEN
05:16:06 <sbp> crazy thing is, for all the network connections it's actually faster than cygwin!
05:16:10 <pir> why don't you throw in a pony, while you're at it?
05:16:20 <sbp> okay. + pony
05:16:20 <d8uv> I tried that once, and it didn't work.
05:16:31 <sbp> really? which bit didn't work?
05:16:49 <d8uv> Samba and colinux.
05:17:04 <sbp> that's odd. worked out o' the box for me
05:17:12 <d8uv> And, if you wanna be cynical, the distro too.
05:17:24 <sbp> well, that's because you probably picked the gentoo one
05:17:31 <d8uv> Nope. Old Mandrake.
05:17:46 <sbp> well no wonder at anyrate
05:17:49 <sbp> screw urpmi
05:18:09 <d8uv> YES
05:18:15 <sbp> heh, heh
05:18:34 <sbp> eek, I need a CD labelling pen thingy
05:19:17 <pir> see, that matter transmitter thing would sure be handy now.
05:19:36 <sbp> yeah. damn
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05:24:52 <d8uv> the d8uv rule of movies:
05:25:12 <d8uv> If a movie talks about it's sanity, it's not going to be very funny.
05:27:26 <Ash> can any of you hit http://outofband.org/gallery
05:27:49 <d8uv> Not here, sorry
05:27:56 <Ash> U BASTARDE
05:28:39 <deltab> BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
05:28:52 <deltab> you did mean that sort of hit, right?
05:29:10 <Ash> heh
05:32:10 <sbp> $ curl -I http://outofband.org/gallery/
05:32:10 <sbp> HTTP/1.1 200 OK
05:32:20 <pir> i can.
05:32:49 <Ash> excellent
05:32:58 <Ash> now try http://zionpleinair.com/gallery/
05:33:16 <pir> yeah.
05:33:19 <deltab> the gallery page itself loads, the images don't
05:33:25 <Ash> humm
05:33:29 <Ash> dns probably still not updated yet
05:34:02 <deltab> zionpleinair.com refused connection
05:34:05 <pir> i get images.
05:34:06 <Ash> yeah
05:34:09 <pir> on both.
05:34:11 <Ash> sweet
05:35:42 <Ash> dns just needs to update everywhere
05:40:07 <Ash> * Ash -> bed
05:47:19 <pir> nite.
06:13:25 <pir> me too. *crash*.
06:13:44 <pir> *** pir is now known as pir_zzzs
06:26:55 <sbp> sigh. samba's starting to act weirdly. it'll let me create files in some directories, but gives "permission denied" for others--even though the permissions and owners are exactly the same for each, and both are on the same mount
06:31:14 <jillzilla> I love charging up four flights of stairs! It makes me feel good!
06:31:44 <d8uv> Hehe. Me too.
06:32:03 <jillzilla> :)
06:32:09 <jillzilla> Okay, now I'm heading home. Night.
06:32:15 <jillzilla> * jillzilla runs down four flights of stairs.
06:32:19 <d8uv> The best are escalators. You feel like the Flash.
06:32:21 <d8uv> Night!
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06:34:49 <sbp> 'night jill
06:41:59 <kandinski> eh, I missed jill by minutes
06:42:03 <kandinski> hi all
06:45:55 <sbp> hmm, no ipython debian package?
06:46:03 <sbp> .g ipython debian
06:46:03 <phenny> ipython debian: http://scipy.net/cgi-bin/viewcvsx.cgi/ipython/debian/
06:46:55 <kandinski> hi girls
06:47:09 <sbp> hey
06:47:18 <sbp> odd: Google says there certainly is one, but...
06:47:18 <sbp> Reading Package Lists... Done
06:47:19 <sbp> Building Dependency Tree... Done
06:47:19 <sbp> E: Couldn't find package ipython
06:47:22 <sbp> Reading Package Lists... Done
06:47:22 <sbp> Building Dependency Tree... Done
06:47:22 <sbp> E: Couldn't find package ipython
06:47:24 <sbp> whoops
06:47:29 <sbp> sorry, new keyboard
06:47:50 <sbp> ahh, unstable
06:47:57 <kandinski> sbp, I love the DNA biscuit story
06:48:01 <kandinski> and the punchline
06:48:36 <kandinski> someone, on the other side of the planet, is telling the same story... but mine is more interesting, because I was in the wrong, or something.
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06:51:50 <kandinski> what the fuck is a pole versus check?
06:52:07 <sbp> it was pir's thingy
06:52:17 <sbp> 'ang on
06:52:39 <sbp> http://swhack.com/logs/2004-06-02#T01-28-20
06:55:29 <sbp> okay. forcibly adding debian unstable to /etc/apt/sources.list is not--repeat not--a good idea
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06:58:23 <sbp> ew, /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/70debconf uses // comments
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07:00:04 <d8uv> Night!
07:01:15 <Sunir_> *** Sunir_ is now known as SUnir
07:01:26 <SUnir> *** SUnir is now known as Sunir
07:08:23 <sbp> 'night d8uv!
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07:14:59 <kandinski> still reading the backroll
07:15:19 <kandinski> jill, if you are reading the logs, you could consider to start your message thus:
07:15:22 <kandinski> "Gentlemen,
07:15:37 <Ash> *** Ash (~aaron@c-24-10-241-56.client.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
07:15:44 <kandinski> I think I my social skills are fucking great, and my netiquette powahs are unstopabble.
07:16:01 <sbp> 2004-06-02 02:00:14 <jillzilla> A day or so later, I realized that the best response would have been just to start using the salutation "Gentlemen,"
07:16:10 <sbp> GMTA
07:16:15 <kandinski> In the interest of good communication on this list, however, I am not loath to ---
07:16:19 <kandinski> <take it from there>
07:16:38 <sbp> oh, there was more
07:16:39 <kandinski> this is a moment to think WWAD, definitely
07:16:50 <kandinski> OBEY THE INNER ASH
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07:33:30 <jillzilla> GMTA? Grinning My Tits Off?
07:33:39 <jillzilla> rowr, the inner Ash!
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07:33:57 <sbp> Great Minds Think Alike
07:34:09 <jillzilla> oh. So similar.
07:34:32 <jillzilla> That whole thing was so weird.
07:34:51 <jillzilla> I mean, duh. You don't address a mixed group as "ladies". Or as "gentlemen", for that matter.
07:35:26 <jillzilla> Watching software restart, on good days, is like watching paint dry.
07:35:32 <sbp> "Dorks,"
07:36:08 <jillzilla> heh. dorks.
07:36:15 <sbp> kandinski has something to tell you
07:36:27 <sbp> * sbp nuges kandinski, whispers "go on!"
07:36:27 <jillzilla> about me being a dork? Oh, I know, I know.
07:36:30 <sbp> er, nudges
07:36:38 <sbp> not quite. he'll explain
07:36:51 <sbp> GET CONTEMPORARY, KANDINSKI
07:36:59 <sbp> you can read the backlogs later when jill isn't around
07:37:06 <sbp> he's got a SpanNug
07:37:10 <jillzilla> MAKE USE OF THE PRECIOUS JILL TIME
07:37:17 <sbp> yeah, exactly!
07:37:18 <kandinski> Spanish Nugget of the day: it is a joke, of the punning kind 6 year olds just LURVE
07:37:26 <kandinski> I was composing it
07:37:36 <sbp> ahh, sorry
07:37:40 <jillzilla> ooooOOh!
07:37:42 <kandinski> jill: just what I told sbp in private conversation
07:37:56 <kandinski> <jillzilla> Okay, now I'm heading home. Night.
07:37:58 <kandinski> * jillzilla runs down four flights of stairs.
07:38:09 <jillzilla> * jillzilla suddenly remembered some bugs she had to close
07:38:14 <kandinski> I thot you weren't here
07:38:14 <kandinski> anyway
07:38:35 <kandinski> First in Spanish: "¿Cómo se cuenta la edad de una taza?"
07:38:44 <sbp> you thôt
07:39:00 <sbp> http://miscoranda.com/6
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07:39:08 <jillzilla> That's exactly what I was about to say.
07:39:13 <jillzilla> "No sé, ¿cómo?"
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07:39:49 <jillzilla> * jillzilla offers sbp a high five
07:39:50 <kandinski> !La tiras al suelo con fuerza, y rompes los añicos!
07:39:50 <wh4> no command found. Commands are: , !iata, !airport, !foaf:, !pic, !put, !remove
07:39:55 <sbp> whoo!
07:40:03 <kandinski> ¡JA JA JA JA JA!
07:40:05 <jillzilla> oh, bugger, I don't know the word añicos
07:40:43 <kandinski> do you know the word "años" and how diminutives are made in Spanish with -itos, -illos and -icos?
07:41:04 <kandinski> añicos, literally, means "smithereens"
07:41:24 <sbp> mmm... breakfast. will be watching but not typing and greasifying my new keyboard
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07:42:31 <kandinski> sbp, consider setting up a dual keyboard setup, one for greasifying and the one you don't use
07:45:54 <kandinski> hey, did I say something wrong?
07:46:00 <jillzilla> Ahhh, añicos!!!
07:46:03 <jillzilla> JA JA JA JA JA
07:46:09 <jillzilla> I actually like that joke.
07:46:11 <sbp> we're waiting for you to continue with your story
07:46:19 <jillzilla> we're talking with colleagues who came by
07:46:24 <kandinski> that is the end of it
07:46:29 <jillzilla> Sean and I have both become plural.
07:46:32 <sbp> unless that was the story and I simply have to learn Spanish in order to get it
07:46:33 <sbp> we have
07:46:37 <jillzilla> Or have started using the royal we.
07:46:42 <jillzilla> Hard to tell.
07:46:44 <kandinski> was waiting for Jill before I explain and expound
07:46:52 <jillzilla> I'm right with ya!
07:46:53 <sbp> we'redness abounds
07:47:30 <sbp> okay, I think that was one of my best puns ever
07:47:33 <sbp> I'm sad like that
07:47:40 <kandinski> Translation: "How do you tell the age of a teacup?" "I dunno, how do you tell?" "You throw it to the ground and count the smithereens HA HA HA HA HA!"
07:48:16 <sbp> that is fairly nice
07:48:17 <kandinski> the words for "smithereens" in Spanish being "añicos", which looks like a constructed diminutive from "años", "years".
07:48:23 <jillzilla> Because "smithereens" sounds like "little years"
07:48:29 <kandinski> sadly, that is what one does with trees: the murder is the autopsy
07:48:47 <jillzilla> Or you take a core sample
07:48:47 <kandinski> it is very good for 6 year olds
07:49:17 <kandinski> and good for foreighners to remember the word for "smithereens"
07:49:27 <kandinski> sbp, what pun?
07:49:39 <sbp> we'redness abounds
07:50:26 <jillzilla> I fear I don't get it
07:50:39 <kandinski> weirdness?
07:50:58 <sbp> sorry, was eating again
07:51:04 <sbp> you have my full attention now
07:51:05 <sbp> brb
07:51:19 <kandinski> noproblem
07:51:32 <kandinski> I also thought "the one for greasifying and the one you don't use" was a good ribbing
07:51:58 <jillzilla> hmm, I wonder if my boyfriend and I are losing interest in each other
07:52:13 <jillzilla> or more specifically if he is losing interest in me
07:52:33 <kandinski> Maybe it needed more oomph: sbp, consider setting up a dual keyboard setup, one for greasifying and the one you *DON'T ACTUALLY USE, EVER*!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!
07:52:44 <kandinski> but I like the original version better
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07:54:19 <jillzilla> Actually, I think he's just caught up in a scavenger hunt.
07:54:30 <jillzilla> And is taking me for granted in the meantime.
07:59:10 <jillzilla> I made local friends before, had a little gang of them.
07:59:18 <jillzilla> But then the crash hit and they moved away, one by one.
08:00:23 <jillzilla> And when we talked yesterday, the stuff that was bugging me today came up.
08:00:47 <jillzilla> And talking about it with pir and sbp today made me feel a lot better. So I'm doing much better tonight than last night, yay.
08:00:55 <jillzilla> okay, bugs all resolved!
08:01:37 <jillzilla> * jillzilla waves
08:01:56 <jillzilla> Heh. I've been spewing a monologue for the past several minutes. Sorry about that. :)
08:02:00 <jillzilla> THE JILLZILLA DRAMA
08:02:58 <jillzilla> okay, leaving for real now. Good night.
08:03:04 <jillzilla> * jillzilla heads for the four flights of stairs
08:04:13 <thelsdj> ug, 1am and i'm still working :\
08:07:01 <thelsdj> ug at the rate this is going i'll be working till 3am
08:07:19 <thelsdj> should have asked my boss when he said earler 'lets start work at 10pm' how long he expected the work to go for hah
08:07:27 <thelsdj> i was thinking like 2hours at most
08:09:49 <sbp> basically, we were being all first person plural on one another's asses, so I wanted to say "we are" in confirmation; but I also wanted to say that weirdness abounds. then the pun came
08:11:45 <sbp> * sbp waves to jill, sorry he wasn't around for the parting story
08:12:40 <sbp> SIC OR MERELY SICK?!
08:13:23 <thelsdj> Sic (sic)
08:21:14 <kandinski> bye now
08:21:37 <kandinski> plane to catch, people to see, food to eat, conference to talk at, yet another plane to catch
08:21:45 <kandinski> I might as well start early
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08:56:14 <Talliesin> hello dearhearts!
08:56:20 <Talliesin> *log time*...
08:57:07 <Talliesin> Hmm.
08:57:18 <Talliesin> Lots of Esprit d'escalier :(
08:57:53 <Talliesin> kandinski, go with the pilates. It's great for your back and not that much work.
08:58:23 <Talliesin> The muscle-building and toning kinda sneaks up you with pilates.
08:58:47 <Talliesin> Rather than other exercises where you feel like you're going to be crippled about half way through the session.
08:58:56 <Talliesin> * Talliesin must get back into the Pilates habit.
08:59:38 <Talliesin> Oh, my too eldest are totally with the pineconehead thing.
08:59:47 <Talliesin> And nonsense words.
09:00:22 <Talliesin> Like "snorp" isn't a slurpee to her, it's an insult.
09:00:30 <Talliesin> [[[
09:00:40 <Talliesin> [exasperated] Okay, SNORP
09:00:42 <Talliesin> ]]]
09:01:58 <Talliesin> Right, I'm all caught up.
09:14:11 <thelsdj> urg, gonna have to stay up till 5am to babysit some servers and make sure they finish doing their thing correctly
09:18:20 <Talliesin> I suspect I'm going to have a similar hometime today.
09:18:41 <Talliesin> I'm just not running at 100% the last couple of days.
09:18:52 <Talliesin> Which means I have to spend more time on stuff
09:18:57 <Talliesin> Which means I'm tired
09:19:05 <Talliesin> Which means I'm not running at 100%...
09:19:19 <Talliesin> Hands up anyone who can spot the problem with the above.
09:19:48 <Talliesin> Stress-induced eczema on my fingers making typing painful is NOT helping.
09:20:04 <Talliesin> Why does one's body react to stress by doing stuff that makes you more stressed.
09:20:18 <Talliesin> Just what was the evolutionary pressure to make that happen?
09:20:35 <Talliesin> Still. it's a good reason to treat myself to a pizza tonight.
09:21:48 <Talliesin> So thelsdj, you busy to 5am or sitting around bored for 3 hours?
09:22:57 <Talliesin> Hmm. I appear to be in quite a moany mood.
09:23:08 <Talliesin> I shall eat chocolate and fix that.
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09:59:36 <Talliesin> Chocolate makes everything better.
10:00:34 <MoiraA> lol
10:10:08 <Talliesin> Hmm. I'm going to have to switch to the air-gapped network soon.
10:10:21 <Talliesin> I'll be disconnected from the continuum :(
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13:12:32 <Talliesin> *burp*
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14:25:43 <Morbus> [10:25] <LTjake> i wish he'd release a usable version.
14:25:43 <Morbus> [10:25] <LTjake> and i wish LDS would release a new version of GD.
14:25:43 <Morbus> [10:25] <Morbus> and I wish my penis was longer.
14:25:43 <Morbus> [10:25] <Morbus> oh, shit.
14:25:43 <phenny> Morbus: pir told me to tell you: definitely the curves, the curves! and they look fine both in IE6 and opera7 on XP. (at 2004-06-02 01:15:38.957424)
14:26:03 <sal> see?
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15:52:48 <Morbus> http://www.wcpo.com/news/2004/local/05/20/wreck.html
15:56:40 <Morbus> topic: discussion of paper leaflet to advertise drupal
15:56:40 <Morbus> [[[
15:56:41 <Morbus> [11:54] <Morbus> Goba: I think we should have some drupal lady chick.
15:56:42 <Morbus> [11:54] <Morbus> on the front, we see her leaning into the viewer.
15:56:42 <Morbus> [11:54] <Morbus> and her posterior "disappears" off the right side.
15:56:42 <Morbus> [11:54] <Morbus> in her hand is her panties.
15:56:42 <Morbus> [11:55] <Morbus> that'd make people actually open the leaflet.
15:56:44 <Morbus> 06[11:55] * Morbus purses lips.
15:56:46 <Morbus> [11:55] <Morbus> i'm kidding, of course.
15:56:48 <Morbus> [11:55] <killes> I got the "go ahead" for using the LinuxTag logo on drupal.org.
15:56:50 <Morbus> [11:55] <Goba> tehy would have a bad impression if the lady would not continue inside :)
15:56:52 <Morbus> [11:55] <killes> Who writes an announcement?
15:56:54 <Morbus> [11:56] <Morbus> Goba: well, we'll make drupal panties.
15:56:56 <Morbus> [11:56] <Morbus> so, she took off her "old cms" panties to put on "drupal panties".
15:56:58 <Morbus> [11:56] <Morbus> man, this is starting to sound good <g>
15:57:00 <Morbus> ]]]
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17:13:06 <jcowan> *** jcowan (~jcowan@a7cebc02.cst.lightpath.net) has joined #swhack
17:13:30 <jcowan> Honey, I'm hoooooome....
17:16:18 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim (~none@192.150.13.5) has joined #swhack
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17:20:26 <jcowan> Ha ho and hey ho.
17:27:37 <Talliesin> * Talliesin applies to have a ISO 639-6 tag registered for the dialect of English which spells home "hoooooome".
17:28:00 <Talliesin> After all, the XML community obviously need it.
17:28:22 <JibberJim> oh yeah, where's your porn reg?
17:28:34 <JibberJim> I was talking about this in the pub last night.
17:29:13 <bjoern_> XML Pr0N!!1
17:29:53 <Talliesin> I'll find it in a second.
17:30:13 <jcowan> There is no ISO 639-6. IT DOES NOT EXIST!!!!!
17:30:14 <Talliesin> But I'm beginning to think the proposed (but not actually proposed yet) 639-6 may be funnier.
17:30:43 <Talliesin> but it WILL [capitalisation not mine]
17:31:36 <Talliesin> JibberJim, http://eikenes.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2004-April/001845.html
17:32:12 <eikeon> *** eikeon (~eikeon@128.8.243.2) has joined #swhack
17:33:14 <JibberJim> Cheers.
17:34:17 <Talliesin> I think there's a good idea in LS 639 in terms of providing a framework for dealing at that level.
17:34:43 <Talliesin> But it has to allow for controversy within the metadata, and I'm not sure it does.
17:35:03 <hamm_> every time i look at what's going on here, theres crazy long words flying about
17:35:05 <hamm_> it's so dangerous
17:35:07 <Talliesin> And such a system would be quite specialised. Not suitable for a part of 639
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17:44:46 <pir_zzzs> *** pir_zzzs (~piranha@S01060050fc99c7fa.no.shawcable.net) has joined #swhack
17:46:29 <pir_zzzs> *** pir_zzzs is now known as pir
17:48:51 <jcowan> I think the only thing they are actually proposing are the billyuns and billyuns of 4-alpha tags.
17:49:12 <jcowan> The hierarchy is, as they admit, very subject to change, not to mention that languages group in all sorts of ways across the Stammbaum.
17:49:40 <jcowan> What's the code for "Gurage languages" (a group of langs spoken around the city of G. in Ethiopia that cut across genetic boundaries)?
17:50:17 <jcowan> What's the code for "Balkan sprachbund"? (the bunch of langs including Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian that have grammatical features in common)?
17:50:25 <jcowan> What's the code for "Jewish languages"?
17:50:27 <jcowan> Etc.
17:52:03 <Talliesin> But that could be useful if you want to encode the sort of debates that come up among linguists professionally and places like here for grins and giggles.
17:52:13 <jcowan> And of course without indexing, the 4-alphas are basically useless. Code for "English". Code for "Hiberno-English". Code for "Dublin Hiberno-English". Code for "Dublin Hiberno-English, North Circular Road". Code for "Dublin Hiberno-English, North Circular Road, south side of." Etc.
17:52:17 <bjoern_> .seen sbp
17:52:18 <phenny> sbp seen in #esp saying: [ heh, heh ] ~ 2 hr(s) 15 sec(s) ago
17:52:22 <Talliesin> Which is the seed idea I like in it.
17:52:29 <Talliesin> But not as a part of 639
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17:59:25 <jcowan> Monty, tell kandinski "This is a test, please ignore".
17:59:25 <Monty> jcowan: Okay, I'll tell kandinski that next time I see them...
18:01:47 <libby> *** libby has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:02:24 <cob1> *** cob1 (~cs@82.152.39.6) has joined #swhack
18:02:25 <Monty> bah, it's cob1 again
18:04:04 <cob1> hi
18:04:31 <Morbus> monty, tell kandinski to reply to this message with nothing in return.
18:04:32 <Monty> Morbus: Okay, I'll tell kandinski that next time I see them...
18:07:25 <cob1> not much going on in here for such a packed place
18:08:02 <Morbus> dude, if you ever get corns on your feet, i'll all be like "corn on the cob!"
18:08:10 <Morbus> and then we'll laugh and cry and drink frappucino's.
18:08:49 <cob1> and the jokes are bad :/
18:09:06 <Morbus> when are my jokes ever good? you new?
18:09:14 <cob1> yep
18:09:29 <cob1> just being nosie
18:09:53 <Morbus> ah.
18:09:57 <cob1> see what chats all about
18:10:04 <Morbus> how'd you find the place?
18:10:11 <kpreid> Another mention of spam-english: http://www.freeke.org/ffg/tech/computers/internet/dadaspam.html
18:11:46 <cob1> i found it via http://searchirc.com/
18:13:18 <cob1> seems slow
18:13:26 <cob1> not much going on
18:14:33 <cob1> do people not realy talk directly in the 'room'
18:14:43 <deltab> channel
18:14:59 <cob1> sorry channel :)
18:17:55 <Morbus> cob1: generally, unlike AOL, people stay in a room all day every day.
18:18:04 <Morbus> there is no "defined" time to chat.
18:18:11 <Morbus> occasionally, they'll be a burst for hours.
18:18:15 <Morbus> then, they'll be a lull.
18:18:30 <Morbus> since swhack has no purpose, there's not /something/ that we always talk about.
18:18:33 <Talliesin> kpreid, Johnny-come-lately plagiarism, that's what it is.
18:18:35 <cob1> though i was being ignored
18:19:00 <JibberJim> * JibberJim ignores cob1
18:19:05 <Talliesin> Well you were being ignored. But that was because people were doing other things.
18:19:21 <Talliesin> Or possibly staring at the screen with drool hanging from their lifeless chins.
18:19:25 <Talliesin> Either, or.
18:19:58 <cob1> oh i see.
18:20:06 <pir> * pir drools quietly.
18:20:09 <cob1> I think this could be addictive
18:20:18 <JibberJim> * JibberJim was listening to Steven Pemberton talk about XForms.
18:20:24 <Talliesin> But then, when you least expect it, the conversation will arise that rivals anything seen in the literary salons of the early Romantics.
18:20:46 <Talliesin> (Such as one that might start from noting anachronisms in what I just said).
18:20:55 <Talliesin> And then quietly die down once again.
18:22:27 <pir> also, some people will be asleep, since they've been up all night chatting.
18:23:02 <Talliesin> There's another swhack
18:23:03 <cob1> how the other half live, i have 2 work
18:23:07 <Talliesin> #swhack even.
18:23:13 <cob1> ?
18:23:31 <JibberJim> People here work...
18:23:37 <JibberJim> some of us are working now I'm sure...
18:23:59 <Talliesin> On another network. I wonder if swhack is onomatopoeic for them too.
18:24:04 <Talliesin> * Talliesin is working.
18:24:37 <cob1> i can not do this at work i would be sacked
18:24:57 <kpreid> ...and some people just leave their irc clients running at home and come back to read what happened while they were gone.
18:25:01 <JibberJim> hmm, odd, here I can talk to experts in my field infinitely better than me.
18:25:12 <JibberJim> why would my employer sack me for doing that?
18:25:13 <Talliesin> I discuss things with colleagues and experts in my field on IRC.
18:25:17 <Talliesin> So I do not get sacked
18:25:35 <pir> i am my own boss, so i do not get sacked.
18:25:51 <JibberJim> Sack yourself PIR, go on do it!
18:26:35 <Talliesin> We forgot to warn cob1 that this is all published.
18:26:37 <JibberJim> [off[ My employer blows monkeys
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18:27:50 <cob1> where is it published?
18:28:19 <Talliesin> http://swhack.com/logs
18:28:36 <Talliesin> http://swhack.com/logs/2004-06-02 is today
18:28:57 <Talliesin> http://swhack.com/logs/2004-06-02.html if you prefer the ol' hypertext
18:28:59 <Talliesin> !pointer
18:28:59 <wh4> no command found. Commands are: , !iata, !airport, !foaf:, !pic, !put, !remove
18:29:31 <Talliesin> Oh, I remember
18:29:36 <Talliesin> loggy, pointer
18:29:36 <Talliesin> See http://swhack.com/logs/2004-06-02#T18-29-36
18:30:16 <Talliesin> Asking loggy for a pointer gives you a link to the last update.
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18:38:54 <Talliesin> Vital stats: http://www.popvssoda.com/countystats/total-county.gif
18:39:33 <pir> phenny, tell sbp you still owe me the DNA story, don't forget.
18:39:34 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell sbp that when they're around.
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18:51:10 <Talliesin> phenny, tell me a story
18:51:10 <phenny> Hey, I'm not as stupid as Monty you know!
18:51:13 <Monty> [11:54] <Morbus> Goba: I didn't sign one, so.....
18:51:41 <Talliesin> phenny, tell sbp a story
18:51:41 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell sbp that when they're around.
18:51:55 <Talliesin> Yeah, not as stupid as Monty. Sure.
18:51:58 <Monty> http://cgi.rz.tu-ilmenau.de/~schwanke/lap_01.jpg
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19:05:36 <redmonk> you know, i'm getting tired of losing challenges in idlerpg. i need to learn to idle better
19:05:52 <jsled> IDLE SUCKER!
19:06:17 <redmonk> heh
19:11:53 <libby> *** libby (~libby@82-32-4-244.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
19:12:00 <eikeon> * eikeon waves to libby
19:12:15 <MoiraA> * MoiraA waves to everyone
19:12:24 <MoiraA> off swimming, cya
19:12:26 <jsled> * jsled waves to no one
19:12:31 <Ash> ASH@!#%!%@!
19:12:33 <MoiraA> *** MoiraA is now known as MoiraA|sw1m
19:12:37 <Ash> ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ASH ))))))))))))))))))))))))))
19:12:42 <Ash> * Ash HUGS ASH
19:12:43 <jsled> ANNOYING SPASTIC HANDWAVING
19:12:54 <eikeon> * eikeon waves to jsled
19:13:17 <Ash> JUNIOR SURVIVAL LIGHT ENTERS DARKNESS
19:13:35 <eikeon> all caps
19:13:45 <Ash> EIKEON
19:14:06 <eikeon> NOEKIE
19:17:17 <cob1> *** cob1 has quit ()
19:20:50 <Talliesin> jcowan, English is essentially the works of Joyce with the hard bits taken out.
19:35:59 <Sunir> *** Sunir has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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19:39:59 <Monty> hey Sunir
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19:49:54 <xover> Joyce is essentially the sum total of the English vocabulary with complications added?
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20:09:17 <jcowan> Talliesin: thanks. Please send email so it gets in the queue.
20:13:04 <kandinski_> LA LA LA
20:13:21 <kandinski_> AQUI SEGUIMOS HOY
20:13:26 <kandinski_> *** kandinski_ is now known as kandinski
20:14:01 <kandinski> got two Monty messages from Morbus and jcowan... the test worked
20:14:04 <Monty> if (Villeneuve == bread) { game dreams of published daughter;}
20:17:33 <kandinski> cool!
20:17:38 <kandinski> Monty is now a surrealist!
20:17:39 <Monty> AQUI SEGUIMOS HOY
20:18:12 <Morbus> eh oh.
20:18:21 <kandinski> esto mejora: Monty habla español ahora!
20:18:22 <Monty> Tell me more about that.
20:18:51 <kandinski> bien, Monty, me gusta que hables español con Jill y conmigo
20:18:58 <Monty> Support to change, not sure it to it wouldn't let them on my mother, since i found very nice, Paul, just means nokia will dump symbian os
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21:44:13 <jillzilla> "In the event of a tornado, lie down in a ditch. If you are already lying in a ditch, do not attempt to sit up."
21:44:16 <jillzilla> Hi!
21:44:31 <JibberJim> what if you're sitting up a page/
21:44:34 <JibberJim> er tree?
21:44:45 <jillzilla> How do you typo "page" for "tree"?
21:45:01 <JibberJim> I was listening to schepers.
21:45:09 <JibberJim> supposed to be scribing elsewhere
21:45:16 <jillzilla> "Prevent tornadoes before they happen: Make sure that warm, moist air fronts do not converge with cool, dry ones."
21:48:16 <jsled> heh
21:48:35 <jsled> "Only _you_ can prevent tornadoes."
21:48:43 <jcowan_> What to do if you meet a bear.
21:48:48 <jcowan_> [[[
21:49:02 <jcowan_> If it's a grizzly bear, play dead and it will probably leave you alone.
21:49:18 <jcowan_> If it's a (North American) black bear, it will attack only if starving. Fight back in that case.
21:49:32 <jcowan_> If it's a polar bear, relax. You will be killed and eaten in any event.
21:49:33 <jcowan_> ]]]
21:49:41 <JibberJim> and koala?
21:49:49 <jsled> you're totally fucked.
21:49:55 <jsled> underestimated, the koala.
21:49:57 <jillzilla> "During a tornado, the only safe place is in my loving arms. Come here, baby."
21:50:16 <jsled> you know that rabbit in Holy Grail? All koalas are like that.
21:50:27 <jillzilla> heh
21:51:10 <Ash> jillzilla
21:52:04 <jillzilla> koalas
21:53:27 <jcowan_> Koalas don't eat meat.
21:53:45 <jillzilla> One of the best moments when I was in Australia was when I was chatting with a group of my SO's relatives, and one of them asked me, "So, have you ever nursed a koala?"
21:53:45 <JibberJim> but never wear the eucalyptus skirt
21:53:52 <jillzilla> I was like...um...er...
21:54:10 <jsled> jcowan_: that's what they _want_ you to think.
21:54:12 <jsled> crafty do.
21:54:15 <jsled> er... too.
21:54:18 <jsled> I hate those bastards.
21:54:20 <jillzilla> The conversation ground to a halt. I was utterly bewildered by the question and they were all bewildered about what I could possibly not have understood.
21:54:43 <jcowan_> Ah yes, one of those "Johnny went to the bathroom in his pants" sentences.
21:56:17 <MoiraA|sw1m> *** MoiraA|sw1m is now known as MoiraA
21:59:15 <Ash> IT'S.. HOMOSEXUALS!
21:59:26 <pir> WHERE? WHERE?
22:00:01 <Ash> ACHEWOOD.COM
22:00:03 <Ash> ARCHIVES
22:01:36 <MoiraA> hello everyone
22:01:41 <MoiraA> ash, jill
22:02:35 <jillzilla> hi, MoiraA
22:02:43 <Ash> hey there moira
22:02:47 <MoiraA> back from swimming
22:02:49 <jillzilla> O NOE HOMOESEXAULS
22:02:52 <MoiraA> for a few hours
22:02:52 <jillzilla> rowr
22:03:00 <MoiraA> then swimming again at half five :/
22:03:28 <MoiraA> got a bit of a sore shoulder
22:03:30 <jcowan_> Is that 5:30 or 4:30? Poor Americans can't ever remember.
22:03:35 <MoiraA> 5.30 am
22:03:38 <MoiraA> in the water
22:03:49 <jillzilla> heh. When I was swimming I was annoyed that I couldn't do it more often than every other day without getting shoulder problems. But since then I've found out what was causing most of the extreme tendency toward inflammation, so I bet I could work up to swimming more often now.
22:04:07 <pir> * pir hasn't swum in waaaaay too long.
22:04:33 <jillzilla> What kind of swimming do you like to do, pir? (or kinds0
22:04:34 <jillzilla> )
22:04:36 <pir> too much effing chlorine in the pools, ocean's too cold here.
22:04:59 <jillzilla> * jillzilla nods. I have trouble with chlorine too
22:05:28 <pir> playing / losing self in water kind of swimming. :) nothing competitive.
22:05:40 <jillzilla> :)
22:05:43 <pir> zen swimming. :)
22:05:48 <jillzilla> it's fun to be weightless
22:06:02 <pir> yeah. and head under water makes world recede.
22:06:04 <MoiraA> yes, chlorine is a pain
22:06:07 <jillzilla> and to sneak up on Ash and pull him under water
22:06:09 <MoiraA> especially when tumbling
22:06:18 <jillzilla> tumbling?
22:06:19 <MoiraA> I hate the pool at the City where I train most
22:06:22 <MoiraA> tumble turns
22:06:28 <MoiraA> get water up your nose :)
22:06:29 <jillzilla> Ah, they're called flip turns here
22:06:32 <MoiraA> right
22:06:44 <jillzilla> * jillzilla notes the new word
22:06:48 <pir> * pir too.
22:06:58 <Ash> flop turns
22:07:10 <pir> could be the word of the day. except that it's two words.
22:07:15 <MoiraA> yeh
22:07:26 <jcowan_> So why shouldn't the WOOD be two words?
22:07:28 <MoiraA> you can wear a nose clip, but I don't like them
22:07:35 <MoiraA> so I mainly breathe out when I turn
22:07:47 <MoiraA> probably why I don't get very far up the pool on a turn :)
22:08:01 <jillzilla> I wonder why I seldom get water in my nose when turning
22:08:05 <jcowan_> pir: that's what I like too. Hopefully this summer in July, but it may still be too cold in upstate NY.
22:08:39 <pir> if i were less of a wuss, i'd swim in colder water. but...
22:08:41 <kpreid> jillzilla: i'm curious myself what the koala remark meant
22:08:44 <MoiraA> maybe you turn very fast jill
22:08:53 <MoiraA> I shouldn't if I do them slickly
22:08:58 <MoiraA> backstroke turns are the worst
22:09:10 <jillzilla> kpreid: It meant, "Have you held/cuddled a koala?"
22:09:27 <jillzilla> Oh, I've never learned to flip backstroke turns.
22:09:32 <kpreid> oh
22:09:52 <MoiraA> same idea, you turn onto your front for the actual turn
22:10:04 <MoiraA> you're allowed one kick, one pull to initiate the turn
22:10:16 <MoiraA> anything like gliding into the wall is deemed grounds for DQ
22:20:45 <Talliesin> *** Talliesin is now known as TalliEat
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22:32:15 <q8uv> HELLO
22:32:18 <q8uv> *** q8uv is now known as d8uv
22:35:49 <pir> hello, d8uv.
22:45:00 <TalliEat> *** TalliEat is now known as Talliesin
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22:49:42 <Talliesin> hi everybody
22:54:54 <kandinski> run run run run run run run a mile or twooo
22:56:42 <d8uv> “If anybody ever tells you that you’re using the language incorrectly, just yell ‘prescriptive grammarian!’ at the top of your voice and all the linguists in the building will run over and surround the guy… and then they’ll rough him up”
22:57:16 <d8uv> -- Chris Clark's linguistics teacher
22:58:28 <Talliesin> Maybe they'd bee two tyred after they runned over.
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23:10:10 <Monty> hi JibberJim
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23:23:39 <deltab> xml
23:23:46 <deltab> so there
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23:27:20 <kandinski> DAME ENTONCES LOS TRES AMARGOS BOLLOS
23:28:25 <kandinski> s/BOLLOS/BESOS/
23:28:35 <kandinski> I am silly that way, sometimes
23:28:51 <kandinski> translation: "GIVE ME THEN THE THREE BITTER KISSES"
23:30:50 <xover> deltab: Doing an impression of the HTML WG there?
23:31:21 <deltab> heh
23:33:57 <Morbus> deltab, you got a second?
23:34:03 <deltab> yes
23:34:03 <Morbus> got a random css question, spurred on by lazy ignorance.
23:34:10 <Morbus> http://64.222.180.126:8888/
23:34:21 <Morbus> see the green/light/green block between the banner ad and the main body?
23:34:30 <Morbus> that's currently a div. can that become an HR cross-browser, using CSS?
23:36:03 <Morbus> ooh, yeah, it kinda can.
23:36:08 <Morbus> at least, in safari.
23:36:18 <kpreid> last time I tried, no - some browsers will draw the rule as a replaced element
23:36:30 <kpreid> but that may have been NS4; I don't remember
23:36:54 <Morbus> yeah, even safari seems to draw it with odd borders.
23:37:02 <Morbus> ah well.
23:37:05 <kpreid> really?
23:37:13 <kpreid> * kpreid tres
23:37:13 <deltab> #header_seperator?
23:37:15 <kpreid> * kpreid tries
23:37:15 <Morbus> yeah, they're very vestigil.
23:37:24 <Morbus> .container_seperator {
23:37:24 <Morbus> background-color: #cfc;
23:37:24 <Morbus> border-left: 9px solid #060;
23:37:24 <Morbus> border-right: 9px solid #060;
23:37:24 <Morbus> float: right;
23:37:24 <Morbus> height: 12px;
23:37:28 <Morbus> width: 318px;
23:37:30 <Morbus> }
23:37:32 <Morbus> that's what i tested with.
23:37:48 <kpreid> you didn't remove the top and bottom borders
23:37:54 <kpreid> (assuming you're styling a hr)
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23:38:33 <xover> What's your requirements that make a HR seem a good idea compared to setting a CSS border: on another element?
23:39:04 <Morbus> xover: did you look at what i'm actually doing?
23:39:09 <deltab> ("separator")
23:39:09 <kpreid> If I specify hr { border: 1px solid red; } in Safari I get a two-pixel red line.
23:39:25 <Morbus> kpreid: yeah, try a refresh. seems better in safari.
23:39:27 <Morbus> testing in others now.
23:40:21 <xover> Oh, right. Nevermind... :-)
23:40:27 <Morbus> :)
23:41:19 <Morbus> looks good in mozilla too.
23:41:29 <Morbus> waiting for IE/win test.
23:41:33 <Morbus> anyone got it?
23:42:26 <deltab> iecapture is overloaded :-(
23:42:37 <Morbus> naturally.
23:42:39 <Morbus> * Morbus sighs.
23:43:25 <Morbus> found someone in #f2o.
23:45:21 <Morbus> http://mwarden.f2o.org/morbus.png
23:46:38 <Morbus> naturally.
23:46:58 <deltab> ew
23:47:27 <Morbus> i don't even see how IE thinks that's right.
23:47:29 <Morbus> it doesn't make sense.
23:47:43 <Morbus> it's not centered.
23:48:26 <Morbus> getting same person to screenshot the div equiv i was using a bit ago (refresh your screen to see both at once)
23:48:32 <Morbus> er, my IP rather.
23:49:09 <Morbus> http://mwarden.f2o.org/morbus2.png
23:49:19 <Morbus> so, i guess i stick with divs.
23:51:22 <Morbus> NP: 'Hey Hey! Can U Relate? (Luke Vibert Remix)' from DJ Mink's album 'Warp 10+3 Remixes'; Unrated; http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001SVNJ/disobeycom/
