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02:39:27 <Ash> *** Ash is now known as Ash5
02:39:55 <Ash5> *** Ash5 is now known as Ash
02:42:01 <Ash> .seen jillzilla
02:42:03 <phenny> jillzilla seen changing nickname to jillium ~ 2 day(s) 19 hr(s) 46 min(s) 5 sec(s) ago
02:42:06 <Ash> JILL
02:42:08 <Ash> DO YOU HEAR ME
02:42:09 <Ash> eheheh
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02:58:38 <errn0> anybody from brazil?
03:09:21 <d8uv> Hi errn0! Welcome to swhack!
03:09:32 <errn0> hi
03:09:43 <d8uv> I think there is, but I'm probably wrong.
03:09:50 <errn0> i would like to chat
03:09:57 <errn0> i need
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03:10:21 <errn0> pvrt
03:10:27 <d8uv> This channel is publically logged, so don't talk about loving dead animals.
03:10:32 <d8uv> pvrt?
03:10:51 <errn0> lol
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04:23:49 <xover> And having been warned that the channel was logged, errn0 elected to refrain from talk about loving dead animals.
04:25:40 <cowan> *** cowan has changed the topic to: necrobestial ignoration
04:27:13 <xover> *** xover has changed the topic to: necrobestial ignoration || ignorable necrobestiality
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04:50:26 <cowan> .seen rlpowell
04:50:27 <phenny> phenny: no match found: rlpowell
05:29:17 <cowan> .help seen
05:29:19 <phenny> usage: seen <nickname> [<line>]
05:29:20 <phenny> - instructs xena to report the last recorded action/message from nickname, along with time and date information
05:29:23 <phenny> - each seen log contains a maximum of 10 lines, with the most recently occurring action/message referenced as line 1, while line 10 is the oldest
05:29:28 <phenny> - the optional line can be a number specifying which entry in the log to display
05:29:30 <phenny> - if line is the character * then all 10 lines of the history will be privately messaged to you
05:36:16 <d8uv> .seen d8uv 9
05:36:17 <phenny> d8uv seen in #sbp saying: [ [[[ ] ~ 1 hr(s) 56 min(s) 58 sec(s) ago
05:36:31 <d8uv> .seen sbp 3
05:36:34 <phenny> sbp seen in #esp saying: [ you'll have to remember it for both of us ] ~ 7 hr(s) 19 min(s) 44 sec(s) ago
05:36:47 <d8uv> .seen ash 6
05:36:49 <phenny> Ash seen in #joiito saying: [ 4 whole chickens ] ~ 1 hr(s) 43 min(s) 23 sec(s) ago
05:37:01 <d8uv> .seen xover 2
05:37:03 <phenny> xover seen in #swhack saying: [ And having been warned that the channel was logged, errn0 elected to refrain from talk about loving dead animals. ] ~ 1 hr(s) 13 min(s) 12 sec(s) ago
05:39:45 <d8uv> .seen deltab 5
05:39:47 <phenny> deltab seen in #sbp saying: [ hehe ] ~ 4 hr(s) 24 min(s) 45 sec(s) ago
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06:12:10 <Monty> howdy, scott
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07:02:46 <Ash> hi
07:02:52 <Ash> lol
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09:28:56 <Ash> *** Ash is now known as Ash{{
09:32:34 <sbp> hey Ash
09:32:41 <Ash{{> sbp
09:32:45 <Ash{{> you unbelievable bastard
09:32:47 <Ash{{> *** Ash{{ is now known as Ash
09:33:02 <sbp> what's all this "{{" stuff then?
09:33:08 <sbp> growing a beard?
09:33:13 <Ash> #joiito
09:33:13 <Ash> heh
09:33:18 <Ash> anyway
09:33:19 <Ash> what's up
09:33:31 <sbp> I thought you said you had forever extricated yourself from that geekpit of utter noise?
09:33:58 <Ash> autorejoined and forgot i was in there
09:33:59 <Ash> keke
09:34:03 <sbp> what's up is: just fixed garner.py/pyrple again
09:34:10 <sbp> and am about to continue working on danbri's task
09:34:23 <Ash> make him do his own damn tasks
09:34:26 <sbp> heh, heh
09:34:40 <sbp> he is unable. Python regexp stuff again
09:34:52 <Ash> lollerskates
09:35:06 <MoiraA|bed> *** MoiraA|bed is now known as MoiraA
09:35:17 <Ash> don't you uk people ever sleep
09:35:23 <MoiraA> heh
09:35:24 <Ash> .time ASH
09:35:26 <phenny> sorry, invalid timezone, or offset is out of range.
09:35:28 <MoiraA> I slept quite a long time for me
09:35:34 <Ash> time?
09:35:37 <MoiraA> went to bed 3 am, just got up
09:35:38 <phenny> 03:35:37 (timezone: 0)
09:35:48 <Ash> ?time ASH
09:35:53 <Ash> time? ASH
09:36:01 <Ash> .time
09:36:35 <phenny> 2004/06/06 10:36:01.712 GMT+1
09:36:50 <MoiraA> 3.35 was it?
09:36:50 <MoiraA> later than I thought :)
09:36:50 <sbp> .t Ash
09:36:50 <sbp> .t ASH
09:36:50 <sbp> what?
09:36:50 <sbp> phenny: ping?
09:36:50 <phenny> Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:36:50 ASH
09:36:50 <phenny> Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:36:50 ASH
09:36:50 <phenny> pong
09:36:58 <sbp> hmm, major lag
09:37:15 <Ash> heheh
09:37:18 <Ash> BAD ROBOT
09:37:32 <sbp> she's probably tired
09:37:36 <sbp> we use her at all hours of the day
09:37:43 <Ash> this is the latest I've been awake in ages
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09:40:31 <deltab> *** deltab has changed the topic to: <sbp> she's probably tired || <sbp> we use her at all hours of the day
09:40:47 <Ash> *porno music plays*
09:50:14 <d8uv> #swhack, I have question.
09:50:36 <d8uv> What do you think about those 80x15 buttons?
09:52:07 <d8uv> Like http://www.gtmcknight.com/buttons/up/hacker.png <- that
09:52:44 <deltab> it's missing the "sw"
09:54:12 <d8uv> well duh
09:57:01 <sbp> heh, heh
09:57:09 <Ash> lalalalala
09:57:25 <sbp> those 80x15 buttons... shall I go into a rant or not... hmm
09:57:31 <Ash> hate
09:57:43 <Ash> it has its roots in blogdorkdom
09:57:45 <sbp> they're okay, just don't go too crazy with them
09:57:47 <Ash> so it must be destroyed
09:57:53 <sbp> but also what Ash says
09:58:00 <Ash> also that esr 'hacker' logo is the most idiotic thing ever.
09:58:06 <Ash> please die all self proclaimed 'hackers'
09:58:11 <Ash> asap
09:58:14 <MoiraA> off swimming, cya l8r
09:58:19 <sbp> c'ya Moira
09:58:20 <Ash> bye moira
09:58:21 <MoiraA> *** MoiraA is now known as MoiraA|swimming
10:01:43 <d8uv> Ok, thanks. I'll think hard in my sleep.
10:01:45 <d8uv> Night!
10:02:01 <sbp> 'night
10:02:33 <Ash> lalalalala
10:02:39 <Ash> hi all sbps
10:02:43 <Ash> in the hizzhouse
10:12:34 <sbp> hi all Ashfords in the swhackizz
10:12:53 <sbp> sw'k
10:20:18 <Ash> hee
11:48:42 <kandinski> hey la la la
11:48:57 <deltab> hey hey 16k
11:53:32 <kandinski> hehe
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11:57:06 <kandinski> lunchtime!
12:29:16 <sbp> ooh, Gmail: "don't ask me for my password for 2 weeks [ ]"
12:37:47 <MoiraA|swimming> lo
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13:46:09 <sbp> * sbp waves
13:46:29 <sbp> word of the day: cacography
13:46:31 <sbp> .w cacography
13:46:31 <phenny> cacography is defined as:-
13:46:33 <phenny> 1. poor handwriting
13:55:11 <sbp> <li>@@ directory for images, CSS, etc. (with thumbnails); images (too
13:55:12 <sbp> constrained), ephemera (too formal), stuff (too colloquial), ephemestuff
13:55:12 <sbp> (too long), media (too inaccurate), nutsnbolts (too mechanical), cogs (too
13:55:12 <sbp> mechanical), engine (too mechanical), style (too constrained), form (too
13:55:12 <sbp> ambiguous), beautifiers (too cosmetic).</li>
13:55:13 <sbp> cough
13:55:17 <sbp> I went with "trove"
13:55:39 <sbp> "mien" and "decor" were other candidates
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14:06:41 <xover> Hmmm. For a (ba)sh wrapper around a Perl script; what's the magic goobledygook to feed the sh script's argument list to the Perl script?
14:13:59 <xover> $*? $@? Any particular gotchas or good useage stuff I need to be aware of?
14:14:23 <MoiraA> *** MoiraA is now known as MoiraA|away
14:15:56 <sbp> "$*" -> "$1i$2i$3i..."
14:16:02 <sbp> where i is the first character of $IFS
14:16:14 <sbp> "$@" -> "$1" "$2" "$3"...
14:16:59 <sbp> $ man bash && read "Special Parameters"
14:17:05 <xover> So for "wrapper.sh foo bar baz", when I want it to call "real.pl foo bar baz", I'd use "/path/real.pl $@" ?
14:17:17 <sbp> yes
14:17:22 <xover> Thanks!
14:17:26 <sbp> no problem
14:17:45 <sbp> (and where on earth is deltab when you need him?)
14:17:54 <xover> * xover has often wondered that...
14:18:33 <xover> Busy smiting evil in another realm, perhaps?
14:20:22 <sbp> sounds right
14:20:35 <sbp> * sbp also needs him for extended #disobey scrollback now... argh
14:20:42 <sbp> oh, d8uv might have it
14:20:59 <sbp> phenny: tell d8uv sbp would appreciate it if you could send him the last few days' #disobey scrollback please
14:21:00 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell d8uv that when they're around.
14:21:54 <xover> Picking the right personal prnouns for phenny messages seem increasingly challenging...
14:22:00 <sbp> yes...
14:22:17 <sbp> phenny: tell sbp person would appreciate it if you could send him the last few days' #disobey scrollback please
14:22:17 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell sbp that when they're around.
14:22:17 <phenny> sbp: sbp told me to tell you: person would appreciate it if you could send him the last few days' #disobey scrollback please (at 2004-06-06 14:22:17.182376)
14:22:19 <xover> ("prnouns"? good grief)
14:22:31 <sbp> seems okay if you treat it like a /me
14:24:00 <xover> Hmmm. And source'ing another bash file (.bash_profile, say) is still ". /path/foo.sh"?
14:24:15 <sbp> or "source /filename"
14:24:23 <xover> They're equivalent?
14:24:27 <sbp> AFAIK, yeah
14:25:26 <xover> Hmmm. So is it some good useage reason why all I ever see is "." then? Or is it just distaste for anything that smacks of csh?
14:25:56 <sbp> I've seen "source" used occasionally
14:25:56 <xover> brevity?
14:26:15 <sbp> not sure. the bash manual doesn't mention "." as an alternative as far as I can garner
14:26:47 <sbp> and the zsh manual or something talks about "source" specifically; I remember reading something that said to source .zshrc
14:26:49 <deltab> tradition, I think
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14:28:40 <xover> ah. thanks
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14:34:32 <patparazzi> i have a problem playing mov files. The audio is f* up, it still there but with terrible hiss. I have quicktime 6.5. I tried to reinstall quicktime but so far no luck. Any idea what might cause this?
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16:11:01 <Monty> hi evangineer
16:11:54 <evangineer> * evangineer keeps losing the connection to freenode
16:12:00 <evangineer> * evangineer is at notcon
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16:19:06 <Monty> it's kandinski_!
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16:29:39 <jeremiah> ello
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16:54:13 <kandinski___> Tomorrow is the day, my friends
16:54:19 <kandinski___> are you coming or what?
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17:11:12 <Monty> hi xcott, how ya doing?
17:11:26 <Ash> heh
17:11:30 <Ash> stabbing all Monty
17:11:33 <Monty> bacon-bazooka's Animal Village moves categorised shops...
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18:51:11 <sbp> another lazy day on Swhack
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19:24:21 <sbp> <sbp> TATMISS: Try to Avoid The Most Insanely Stupid Solution
19:24:22 <kandinski> hi sean
19:24:23 <sbp> - #rdfig
19:24:25 <sbp> he ythere
19:24:27 <kandinski> ga ga ga ga
19:24:32 <sbp> ...hey there, rather
19:24:37 <kandinski> hardware trubol agian
19:24:48 <kandinski> I ARE HAXORED BY REALITY!
19:24:52 <sbp> another disk need formatting?
19:25:55 <kandinski> my new wifi g usb dongle does not work as it should
19:26:14 <patricia_> *** patricia_ (~patricia@80.26.152.94) has joined #swhack
19:26:22 <kandinski> nothing works as it should chez kandi
19:26:30 <kandinski> this patricia is my friends patri's laptop
19:26:47 <kandinski> I will be using it tomorrow at the SVG SW meet
19:27:07 <patricia_> but the bloody wifi is intermintet
19:28:00 <patricia_> doesn't seem to work, and I don't have enough laptops, dongles and routers to isolate w98m, the router, the cable or the new dongle itself as the weak link
19:28:12 <patricia_> business as usual chez kandi, really
19:28:23 <patricia_> do you guys know who from #swhack is coming?
19:29:44 <sbp> no idea. Jim probably? he's in Madrid now, IIRC
19:29:57 <patricia_> jibberjim... hmmm....
19:30:13 <patricia_> will see him tomorrow, then, and chaals also
19:30:16 <Ash> jibba jabba
19:30:30 <kandinski> ah, lost connection again
19:30:42 <kandinski> does anyone know why a wifi link can become intermittent?
19:30:56 <sbp> mine was until I stomped my WLAN
19:30:57 <kandinski> it was a cheap wifi dongle, but I expected more
19:31:10 <kandinski> stomped it?
19:31:15 <kandinski> and then what?
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19:41:02 <patricia_> *** patricia_ (~patricia@80-26-152-94.adsl.nuria.telefonica-data.net) has joined #swhack
19:41:04 <patricia_> hi
19:41:07 <patricia_> me again
19:41:31 <sbp> phenny: tell patricia_ hi
19:41:32 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell patricia_ that when they're around.
19:41:42 <patricia_> heh
19:41:43 <phenny> patricia_: sbp told me to tell you: hi (at 2004-06-06 19:41:31.728227)
19:41:50 <sbp> wifi working now?
19:42:00 <patricia_> hi phenny
19:42:01 <phenny> hi, patricia_
19:42:19 <patricia_> well, no worries: I will drop from the channel and come back up in no time at all
19:44:08 <kandinski> see?
19:45:57 <cowan> *** cowan (cowan@pool-151-202-37-194.ny325.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
19:49:08 <cowan> The six purposes of the Internet: [[[
19:49:17 <cowan> 1) Person to person electronic mail
19:50:04 <cowan> 2) Closed group discussion (e.g. mailing lists)
19:50:21 <cowan> 3) Open group discussion (e.g. Usenet, web forums)
19:50:38 <cowan> 4) Interactive conversation
19:50:47 <cowan> 5) Controlling remote computers
19:50:53 <cowan> 6) Retrieving remote data
19:50:54 <cowan> ]]]
19:51:48 <sbp> aren't 1-3 subsets of 4? and don't 5 and 6 potentially overlap with some others?
19:52:24 <sbp> I guess 4) is meant to be "Instantaneous interactive conversation"
19:52:46 <sbp> and, maybe, "line-based"
19:52:55 <sbp> in fact, best just to say IRC/IM
19:53:09 <sbp> they've been around for a decade, aren't going any place
19:53:38 <sbp> like how we say hoovering instead of vacuuming...
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19:54:22 <deltab> on interactivity: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/msg00961.html
19:54:24 <cowan> I should have added those to 4 as examples.
19:54:39 <sbp> shame that Jarkko Oikarinen didn't trademark IRC: he's missing out on the ability to get annoyed o'er people using it generically
19:55:13 <sbp> heh
19:55:33 <cowan> Trademark it as a what? It's neither a good nor a service and is not "in trade". You can't just trademark anything you damn please.
19:56:14 <cowan> I remember reading the line "He hoovered over her" in some early piece of net.porn and rotflmao-ing.
19:56:18 <sbp> unless you're rich enough to buy law augmentations
19:56:35 <sbp> heh
19:56:46 <kpreid> *** kpreid (~kpreid@69-169-139-186.bflony.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
19:56:46 <Monty> Thank goodness, kpreid is back!
19:56:51 <sbp> quiet, Monty
19:56:52 <Monty> Guinness ;)
19:56:53 <d8uv> Morning!
19:56:53 <phenny> d8uv: sbp told me to tell you: sbp would appreciate it if you could send him the last few days' #disobey scrollback please (at 2004-06-06 14:21:00.055156)
19:57:12 <cowan> 'Afternoon.
19:57:20 <sbp> 'evenin'
19:57:37 <d8uv> Well, it's actually noon here.
19:57:40 <d8uv> .t d8uv
19:57:40 <phenny> Sun, 06 Jun 2004 11:57:40 D8UV
19:58:03 <cowan> Still just barely morning.
19:59:03 <sbp> d8uv: if you could send them well in advance of my midnight (BST), then I'd be even more obliged; I'm planning on announcing the site to various people in a midnight mass-mailing
19:59:29 <d8uv> Ok, when you want the cutoff to be?
19:59:51 <sbp> just send me a couple of days' worth, no hassle over exact cut-off point
20:00:03 <sbp> I'm looking for a specific line that I said in the previous couple o' days
20:00:41 <patricia_> *** patricia_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:01:30 <sbp> could do with waiting another week or so, but I need to show DanC garner.py
20:01:30 <kandinski> http://www.motherboard.cz/wireless/ovislink.htm
20:01:35 <kandinski> I really hate this
20:01:47 <kandinski> fucking linkfarm
20:01:55 <cowan> Odd that hoover is a U.S. company, but the name never became a generic verb here.
20:01:56 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim (~none@80-28-162-239.adsl.nuria.telefonica-data.net) has joined #swhack
20:01:57 <kandinski> poisoning google for profit
20:02:11 <sbp> bing. please tell us it's not worksafe
20:02:17 <kandinski> sorry
20:02:18 <sbp> NSFW
20:02:22 <sbp> * sbp waves to JibberJim
20:02:26 <kandinski> I don't care about this kind of things
20:02:33 <sbp> cowan: it's an American firm? I didn't know that
20:02:36 <kandinski> but yes, it has lots of pon-no ads
20:03:27 <d8uv> sbp: Wanna do dcc?
20:03:29 <JibberJim> Hey sbp
20:03:42 <sbp> * sbp wonders whether to include cowan and deltab inth' spamming
20:03:45 <d8uv> * d8uv is lazy
20:03:51 <sbp> d8uv: DCC doesn't work on this client
20:04:02 <d8uv> :( Uploading
20:04:03 <sbp> email will be fine; HTTP even better
20:04:12 <sbp> what' wrong with email?
20:04:16 <sbp> s/'/'s/
20:04:27 <d8uv> email is stupid.
20:04:31 <d8uv> ftp more so
20:04:37 <sbp> JibberJim: you're going to the SVG meet in a couple of days' time, right? kandinski'll be there too
20:04:44 <sbp> JibberJim, kandinski. kandinski, JibberJim
20:04:48 <sbp> go find one another
20:04:58 <cowan> Spam from sbp is welcome any time.
20:05:46 <d8uv> Done
20:05:48 <cowan> History of the Hoover (vacuum cleaner, that is): http://www.hoover.com/dbPages/History.asp
20:05:49 <swhacker> posted 408
20:05:50 <JibberJim> * JibberJim is in Getafe.
20:05:58 <sbp> eek, now people are going to try to tunnel through me
20:06:14 <sbp> quantum snooker all over again
20:06:25 <sbp> how far is Getafe from Madrid?
20:06:29 <cowan> jibberjim: and have you gotten any afes yet/
20:06:31 <JibberJim> hey kandinski, looking forward to meeting you kandinski
20:06:42 <JibberJim> I dunno, it took about 15 minutes on the train.
20:06:47 <JibberJim> I'm staying near Opera.
20:07:47 <sbp> 408:Hmm: <a href="http://media.hoover.com/Media/PageImages/about/history/au_his_photo1.jpg">old Hoover photo</a>. Those flopping bags were rather popular until only very recently, if recollections from sbp.childhood are anything to go by.
20:08:51 <sbp> heh. "It beats as it sweeps as it cleans."
20:08:53 <cowan> sbp: no problem. My spam filters are *tuned*; I took about a gig (literally) of spam from SA and my entire incoming and outgoing archives since 1999 and trained spambayes on them. Maybe one spam every three days gets through.
20:08:54 <kandinski> jibberjim, we could meet for 30 minutes in about 15 if you want
20:09:16 <kandinski> I am trying to fix my hardware woes, and have some work to do, but a short coffe would be great
20:09:20 <libby> *** libby (~libby@80-28-162-239.adsl.nuria.telefonica-data.net) has joined #swhack
20:09:21 <JibberJim> You live near Getafe? I'm with chaals and libby and people.
20:09:26 <sbp> 1GB? goodness
20:09:29 <kandinski> ahhh
20:09:35 <kandinski> I am near Opera
20:09:59 <cowan> basically all the spam that running spamassassin for 2 1/2 years accumulated in my caughtspam folder.
20:10:30 <JibberJim> Ah, how are you getting to the place tomorrow, I'm gonna get the Metro some time in the morning tomorrow to Atuche then get a cab,
20:11:07 <cowan> I rip through the "unsure" stuff about once a day, save the few good items to /tmp/ham, and update the training.
20:12:27 <sbp> I've never had the patience to train a filter that carefully: the problem is that I don't look for false positives since most of the filters I've used don't give me a ranking order
20:13:01 <sbp> the filter inherent to Thunderbird is a good example. Thunderbird could really do with a "sort by spamicity" column in its folder view
20:13:30 <d8uv> Ooh. You only need two levels.
20:13:32 <kandinski> well, Jim, tomorrow I will be getting there late because of a doctor's appointment
20:13:54 <JibberJim> Ah, okay kandinski, well I'll meet you at the meet then.
20:13:57 <kandinski> we can share transportation getting back, and also on wednesday
20:14:08 <kandinski> what plans do you have for tomorrow evening?
20:14:38 <kandinski> I have a barrapunto friend from the Canary Isles visiting Madrid, and maybe we could all go out for some tapas and a cocktail
20:14:39 <JibberJim> It's in the agenda:
20:14:41 <JibberJim> Dinner
20:14:41 <JibberJim> There is no formal dinner provided. Participants (and friends) are welcome to join the organisers for dinner at a Restaurant in Madrid.
20:14:51 <kandinski> start early, get home early
20:14:52 <kandinski> ah
20:14:59 <sbp> d8uv: hmm? so let's say 85% of my email is spam. only 0.05% of those are false positives; now if there's no ranking to float those fositives somewhere near the surface, how do I spot them? I'd have to manually filter the spam by hand, which rather beats the point of having a spam filter
20:15:06 <kandinski> well, I will tell rvr that, see what plans he has
20:15:30 <kandinski> he is here with girlfriend, and she might not want to attend a multitudinouriuslytarian dinner
20:15:43 <JibberJim> .wn multitudinouriuslytarian
20:15:43 <phenny> JibberJim: please use my .w function instead of .wn, as the output is truncated and less liable to cause flooding.
20:15:47 <JibberJim> .w multitudinouriuslytarian
20:15:47 <phenny> I couldn't find multitudinouriuslytarian in WordNet.
20:15:47 <d8uv> Sorting by spamicity would be good, but setting spam by level is bad
20:15:59 <kandinski> jibberjim: crowded
20:16:05 <kandinski> sorting by spamicity is good
20:16:14 <kandinski> I had a false positive that killed me last month
20:16:31 <kandinski> French friend who was desperate I wouldn't answer her letters
20:16:52 <kandinski> seems I got a lot of french spam at some moment, so now my spam filters think all french is spam
20:20:02 <cowan> Bummer. Time to retrain.
20:20:08 <kandinski> right
20:20:34 <kandinski> I whitelisted her by means of a filter rule, but I think I will have to retrain my mozilla
20:20:58 <kandinski> the server's bogofilter spamassassin whatever also thinks all French is SPAM
20:21:04 <kandinski> but I don't know what its reason is
20:23:21 <cowan> sbp: I plain don't worry about false positives.
20:23:26 <kandinski> why is that?
20:23:44 <kandinski> this friend was chewing my ear...
20:24:05 <cowan> Email's not a reliable medium anyhow. if you really, *really* need me, for sure, 100%, use something where there's a contract of delivery.
20:24:46 <JibberJim> My current problem with spam etc filters is that I keep getting booted off mailing lists that relay spam... how do we solve this?
20:25:11 <cowan> About the only time a fp has ever nailed me is when my daughter emailed me her school essay to print out at work (I loooooove 60 ppm printers) and it wound up in caughtspam. But I was expecting it, which puts a different spin on it.
20:27:45 <Ash> what I use here at work is quite reliable, and we have a very minimal number of fp's
20:27:59 <Ash> spamassassin + Trend eManager
20:28:20 <Ash> I'm going to move the SA stuff to before-queue shortly
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21:25:16 <sbp> bizarre moment on IdleRPG:
21:25:17 <sbp> * Joins: THANKS-USA (*.fr rDNS)
21:25:17 <sbp> <THANKS-USA> THANKS
21:25:17 <sbp> <THANKS-USA> THANKS AMERICA
21:25:21 <sbp> <THANKS-USA> we'll never forget
21:25:21 <sbp> <THANKS-USA> what YOU did
21:25:21 <sbp> <THANKS-USA> in France
21:25:23 <sbp> <THANKS-USA> :)
21:25:25 <sbp> <THANKS-USA> I LOVE USA
21:25:27 <sbp> <THANKS-USA> Tell all your people we love you
21:25:30 <sbp> <THANKS-USA> and our chirac president is the REALY DUMB in da story
21:25:31 <sbp> * Parts: THANKS-USA ("Leaving")
21:27:16 <kandinski> *** kandinski has quit ("Going... going... gone")
21:33:30 <cowan> Tres bizarre indeed.
21:34:54 <sbp> it's those What's The Frequency, Kenneth? moments that make IRC worth idling in
21:35:47 <GabeW> roffle
21:36:13 <cowan> Until I googled, I thought "what's the frequency" was just a nonstandard expansion for WTF -- come to think of it, maybe it is.
21:36:44 <sbp> ooh, an alternate explanation
21:36:45 <cowan> A scrambled song that came into my head while walking home last night:
21:36:51 <cowan> [[[
21:36:58 <cowan> Dance, dance, wherever you may be,
21:37:07 <cowan> Pardonnez-moi, je vous en prie,
21:37:13 <cowan> I am the ruler of the Queen's Navee,
21:37:17 <cowan> And only God can make a tree.
21:37:18 <cowan> ]]]
21:37:27 <cowan> It actually works to any of the various airs.
21:37:27 <sbp> first line reminds me of: http://www.users.on.net/~arachne/lotd.html
21:38:00 <cowan> Reminds you of? It *is*.
21:38:03 <sbp> * sbp finds http://users.erols.com/ted.overholt/Molly/lyric/soldiers3.html for the second line via Google...
21:38:08 <sbp> yeah. just figured that
21:38:12 <cowan> The next line comes from a Renaissance lyric;
21:38:16 <cowan> the third is G&S
21:38:24 <sbp> Pinafore
21:38:31 <cowan> and the fourth from a poem American schoolkids used to learn
21:39:02 <sbp> hmm. that's more obscure--even Google don't know nowt 'bout it
21:40:00 <cowan> Sorry, should be but, not and: see http://www.bartleby.com/104/119.html .
21:40:27 <sbp> my quick theory of double negatives: negatives stacked next to one another are added, not multiplied. -1 + -1 = -2 (i.e. intensification), not -1 * -1 = 1 (negation of negation)
21:40:36 <sbp> IANALinguist
21:40:59 <cowan> Depends on the language.
21:41:06 <MoiraA|afk> *** MoiraA|afk (~moira@ACBEC918.ipt.aol.com) has joined #swhack
21:41:17 <sbp> hmm. hard to read poetry whilst listening to a song: it's like reading two poems simultanouesly
21:41:37 <cowan> Latin, Japanese multiply negations; English and the Romance langs add them.
21:41:43 <sbp> oh? are there languages in which it's strictly the latter?
21:41:50 <MoiraA|afk> *** MoiraA|afk is now known as MoiraA
21:41:55 <sbp> ah. thanks!
21:42:16 <sbp> * sbp wonders why it changed between Latin and its derivations
21:42:40 <cowan> Hard to say. We don't know what was going on in spoken Latin, really, except for what we can reconstruct.
21:42:45 <d8uv> Stupid birds.
21:42:56 <cowan> A lot of hifalutin latin comes from Greek models; I don't know what Greek does.
21:42:57 <MoiraA> hello
21:43:02 <d8uv> Hello!
21:43:10 <cowan> Hi, Moira.
21:43:17 <MoiraA> what was that name you had for this channel again?
21:43:20 <woundown> hello
21:43:25 <MoiraA> I was trying to remember earlier ....
21:43:32 <MoiraA> something warez hack
21:43:38 <sbp> oh, whilst I have access to your cowaniscience: do you have any helpful hints about Triternions? reference: http://miscoranda.com/106
21:43:42 <deltab> http://www.dista.de/netstpint.htm
21:43:58 <woundown> secret warez hack?
21:44:00 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:44:00 <deltab> (tree poem)
21:44:07 <cowan> It was "SoftWare Hacks", but the person who invented it (not me) wouldn't use "hack" to refer to warez.
21:44:21 <MoiraA> ah right
21:44:22 <MoiraA> cheers
21:44:33 <MoiraA> lol
21:44:49 <cowan> Cool.
21:44:59 <Ash> secret warez hack
21:45:01 <Ash> duh
21:45:15 <cowan> deltab: excellent.
21:45:37 <cowan> see also http://www.pen.k12.va.us/Div/Winchester/jhhs/math/poetry/threes2.html
21:45:55 <MoiraA> secret - that was it
21:46:09 <cowan> Did I talk here about "We'll rant and we'll roar" as encoding an emergency return algorithm?
21:48:22 <MoiraA> that's good :)
21:48:27 <MoiraA> there's a lot of truth in that
21:48:31 <MoiraA> 3's
21:48:44 <thelsdj> anyone here know anythign about the banking system? if paypal can take $ out of your account with just your account # and routing #, whats to stop an employer who has that same information for direct deposit purposes to strip all the $$$ from your account?
21:48:50 <cowan> Nothing.
21:49:12 <MoiraA> don't they need your password to access your account?
21:49:36 <MoiraA> I mean - you need a password to give an instruction to paypal to pay someone
21:49:43 <Ash> plossworde
21:49:46 <cowan> My whole company got a transfer of thousands of $$$ into our accounts (well, those of us on direct deposit anyway) followed by an equal and opposite transfer out.
21:49:59 <Ash> cowan: yeah, they can transfer things in and out at will.
21:50:10 <Ash> the banking system is not particularly secure in that regard.
21:50:14 <cowan> MoiraA: that password never gets past paypal.
21:50:18 <thelsdj> so anyone with routing # and account # can do anything to your bank account?
21:50:35 <cowan> No. They have to be someone you have authorized to do it first.
21:50:42 <cowan> But once authorized, they are as gods.
21:50:49 <Ash> In theory.
21:50:54 <thelsdj> but how does banks know you authorized paypal?
21:50:57 <MoiraA> don't you have to authorize every transaction?
21:50:58 <thelsdj> i don't remember that step
21:51:14 <Ash> The party that is sticking money in your account basically just says 'oh yeah, they gave me this acct number, he told me i could access it!'
21:51:54 <thelsdj> right, but what authorization is required for taking $ out?
21:51:56 <cowan> ANyone can deposit money to anyone's account in general -- you can walk into a branch and do it; you often don't even need the account # if you know the person has an account. i've done it from time to time.
21:52:15 <cowan> The charities etc. that I've dealt with typically want a voided check with your signature on it.
21:52:32 <cowan> The routing # and account # are on the check.
21:52:37 <cowan> in the micr at the bottom.
21:52:43 <MoiraA> yeah, no problem with someone putting money *in* my account
21:52:56 <MoiraA> I think they'd be more careful with someone wanting to take it out
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21:53:06 <MoiraA> in fact, don't paypal pay someone on your behalf?
21:53:08 <thelsdj> right and i still don't understand whats to stop anyone who has your routing and account # to take as much money out as they want
21:53:12 <MoiraA> it doesn't work like a direct debit
21:53:22 <MoiraA> because no-one takes money from your account
21:53:29 <MoiraA> paypal pay people
21:53:38 <MoiraA> on your instructions
21:56:25 <thelsdj> but how does my bank now its my instructions?
21:57:20 <thelsdj> what im getting at is i want to allow someone overseas to transfer money to my account from their account on a regular basis but is it safe to give them account # and routing #?
21:57:27 <Ash> uh no
21:57:35 <Ash> that's why the 419 scams work
21:57:47 <Ash> if someone gets your routing number and acct and some tidbit of personal info they can do whatever.
21:58:13 <thelsdj> right, ok thats what i thought but what IS the proper way to have someone transfer $ into your account
21:58:13 <Ash> I forget what exactly.
21:58:30 <Ash> You only do it with trusted parties apparently :)
21:58:48 <Ash> I mean, I direct deposit into my Dad's account (paying him back for some money he lent)
21:58:58 <Ash> and I didn't have to do anything other than give them the routing and acct number
21:59:32 <cowan> You are instructing your bank what to do, so they have some method of identifying you since you are their customer.
21:59:51 <cowan> The receiving bank couldn't care less: as i said, any bank will process any well-formed deposit to any of their accounts.
22:00:05 <Ash> Sure, but the entity doing the direct deposit can also withdraw.
22:00:18 <cowan> in general, banks use the "execute and back out if necessary" strategy; it's much cheaper, since most transactions are sound.
22:00:45 <cowan> When your employer dd's to you, it's because you've signed a document letting them do it.
22:01:01 <Sunir> *** Sunir has quit ("Leaving")
22:01:01 <deltab> hmm, like a wiki
22:01:05 <knoppix_> *** knoppix_ (~knoppix@80.26.155.76) has joined #swhack
22:01:06 <Monty> welcome, knoppix_
22:01:08 <Ash> THE BANK ACCOUNT WIKI
22:01:09 <Ash> heh
22:01:11 <cowan> Exactly.
22:01:19 <cowan> umm, deltab: exactly
22:01:29 <thelsdj> imagine if all bank accounts in the world were open as much as a wiki :)
22:02:00 <cowan> I once wrote a check to a utility for $35 which got misread and credited as $55. The utility wanted me to jump through all sorts of hoops to refund the extra $20.
22:02:02 <thelsdj> problem is the bank vaults arn't that open though :\
22:02:16 <cowan> I called my bank, said "Your fault, you fix it" and they fixed it that same day.
22:02:30 <knoppix__> *** knoppix__ (~knoppix@80-26-155-158.adsl.nuria.telefonica-data.net) has joined #swhack
22:03:36 <Ash> bank security is completely bogus basically. people get defrauded all the time. it's pretty crazy.
22:03:39 <Ash> but it works so hey whatever
22:03:40 <Ash> heh
22:05:03 <cowan> It may not be well known that when you send a bill with payment to P.O. Box whatever, it's a bank, not the actual payee, who opens the letters and removes the checks.
22:06:31 <thelsdj> cowan: oh yea?
22:07:16 <cowan> yup. it's called "lockbox service" and it's something banks do for big customers (for extra $$$, of course).
22:07:22 <Ash> It certainly depends on who it's going to and.... yeah.
22:07:33 <cowan> Why open the envelope and send the check to your bank? Let the bank open it.
22:07:53 <Ash> The group who did that (as well as ATM deposits) were in 2 basement floors of the bank I used to work in @ new orleans
22:08:21 <Ash> all the atm deposits are handled mostly by machines
22:09:13 <cowan> Just overheard: "You can't get mad cow from freakin' buffalo! That's why they call it 'cow'!"
22:09:23 <Ash> oh man. hahaha
22:09:25 <Ash> where are you at
22:09:54 <cowan> NYC, financial capital of the world, where I spent about 10 years working for a bank (but not opening envelopes).
22:10:02 <deltab> freaking buffalo don't sound too healthy either
22:10:16 <cowan> As long as they can still walk.
22:10:32 <knoppix_> *** knoppix_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:11:27 <cowan> A spam that just got through, in full: [[[
22:11:31 <cowan> Lavern, the friend of Lavern and flies into a rage with swamp living with
22:11:31 <cowan> +dolphin.When you see class action suit behind microscope, it means that
22:11:31 <cowan> +onlooker about scooby snack starts reminiscing about lost glory.When briar
22:11:31 <cowan> +patch inside procrastinates, abstraction inside beams with joy.
22:11:33 <cowan> ]]]
22:12:44 <deltab> not quite Joyce
22:12:57 <cowan> Indeed.
22:13:02 <thelsdj> hahah
22:13:06 <cowan> But for fuliginous obscurity, it can't be beat.
22:13:09 <deltab> all the words are spelt right :-)
22:13:19 <cowan> ATNs are more interesting than random words.
22:13:36 <Ash> Neither the Archers' buffalo nor any known water buffalo in the world has ever been diagnosed with TSE or, more specifically, BSE (Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy).
22:13:41 <Ash> (found on some page)
22:13:42 <Ash> heh
22:13:46 <Ash> * Ash zooms home
22:14:44 <cowan> American bison (which is what's being referred to) aren't water buffalo, though.
22:15:08 <deltab> are there water buffalo in the far north? are they ice buffalo?
22:15:15 <cowan> IMHO not any more.
22:15:18 <d8uv> britons: http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
22:16:28 <cowan> Fascinating even to this Leftpondian.
22:17:28 <cowan> Tell me, how do the English feel about not having their own legislature?
22:17:41 <Ash> Dave Carter, director of the National Bison Association in Denver, said that BSE has never been found in buffalo. He added that traditional production and processing practices utilized in the bison industry make buffalo meat products the perfect choice for consumers looking for a tasty alternative to beef.
22:17:42 <kandinxki> *** kandinxki has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:17:47 <Ash> heh
22:18:58 <cowan> Thanks, Ash.
22:19:00 <sbp> ooh, Hansard searches
22:20:57 <cowan> With glossary links to boot.
22:21:19 <cowan> like "in another place".
22:21:57 <sbp> heh: 'Hugo Swire: I should love to give way but I am running short of time. [Hon. Members: "Oh!"]' - http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2004-05-26.1567.1#g1615.2
22:22:19 <sbp> endless hours of amusement. the Hansard's stenographers must be amazing
22:22:28 <cowan> Either that or they make it all up.
22:22:40 <sbp> that'd be equally amazine
22:22:58 <sbp> but still with a -g, contrary to the whims of my typing
22:23:26 <cowan> Dr. Johnson, before he was famous, used to concoct the published debates based on notes taken by someone else who was able to bribe a doorkeeper to let him in.
22:23:36 <cowan> Yet another way to make money from writing.
22:24:12 <sbp> as long as the bribe is small
22:24:29 <cowan> actually it was probably more pull than actual bribery.
22:24:38 <sbp> "you've gotta spend money (coughbribescough) to make money"
22:25:05 <knoppix__> woot!
22:25:13 <cowan> When this became known, Johnson was complimented on how even-handed his speeches were: both Whigs and Tories talked like, well, like Johnson.
22:25:24 <sbp> heh, heh
22:25:34 <knoppix__> my tablet's weird disk failures seem to be over!
22:25:34 <cowan> "Ay, Sir," he said, "but I took care that the WHIG DOGS should not have the best of it."
22:25:51 <cowan> Oh no, a traveler from the land of Woot!
22:26:13 <knoppix__> I just initiatede an scp upload of my data, thanks to knoppix-terminalserver
22:26:20 <knoppix__> one month later,
22:26:27 <knoppix__> * knoppix__ dances with joy
22:26:36 <knoppix__> *** knoppix__ is now known as kandinski
22:26:40 <kandinski> * kandinski also dances with joy
22:26:47 <kandinski> joy dances with both of us
22:27:29 <kandinski> how do you measure the size of a directory in the unix CLI?
22:27:45 <kandinski> well, "measure" is not the word, how can you tell?
22:27:56 <cowan> Size in what units: bytes? files?
22:28:39 <sbp> name length?
22:28:50 <deltab> ls -l
22:28:50 <Monty> wrong window? :)
22:28:53 <kandinski> bytes, thanks
22:29:01 <sbp> heh!
22:29:04 <cowan> Say "ls -ld".
22:29:04 <kandinski> the whole directory, recusively
22:29:06 <sbp> pwd
22:29:10 <deltab> not this time, Monty
22:29:11 <Monty> Guinness ;)
22:29:11 <sbp> cd /hmm
22:29:12 <kandinski> and Monty is very good at quips
22:29:14 <Monty> ATNs are on Swhack
22:29:29 <deltab> so I see
22:29:36 <sbp> touch Monty
22:29:39 <Monty> (and next to your post in about 15 minutes in bed :-(
22:29:39 <cowan> Oh, including the contents? Hmm.
22:29:55 <deltab> du
22:29:57 <sbp> kandinski: du -sh
22:30:17 <cowan> Don't forget -k, otherwise the units used are system dependent.
22:30:20 <kandinski> thanks
22:30:39 <kandinski> du -ksh $directoryname??
22:30:54 <sbp> aye
22:30:56 <sbp> aye is a great word
22:30:59 <sbp> .ety aye
22:31:00 <phenny> aye: Middle English, from Old Norse ei; akin to Old English A always, Latin aevum age, lifetime, Greek aiOn age
22:31:02 <kandinski> yes, aye es bood
22:31:18 <cowan> Not to be confused with ay 'ever', although aye is sometimes spelled ay.
22:31:32 <cowan> And indeed ay is sometimes spelled aye.
22:31:49 <cowan> But when it means "ever" it rhymes with say, whereas when it means "yes" it rhymes with tie.
22:31:58 <deltab> I spontaneously nearly used 'elsehow' yesterday
22:32:10 <cowan> Khul.
22:32:23 <kandinski> damn, windows network transfers really are slow...
22:32:37 <cowan> You don't need both h and k, kandinski, but k is more portable than h.
22:32:51 <sbp> I used "theresince" a while ago
22:32:52 <kandinski> I just scp'd a lot of files in no time
22:33:03 <kandinski> One Gig in a whiffy
22:33:23 <cowan> Riddle: What's the past tense of "hitherto"?
22:33:54 <cowan> That's because SMB protocol is essentially Xmodem.
22:34:10 <cowan> get a block, ack it, get a block, ack it, etc.
22:34:20 <sbp> ...adverbs have past tenses now?
22:34:45 <kandinski> one question:
22:34:49 <kandinski> my disk was fuxxored
22:35:07 <cowan> Well, if I say today, "Hitherto you did not know the past tense of 'hitherto'", what I would I say tomorrow?
22:35:39 <sbp> hithertoyesterday?
22:36:13 <kandinski> It would say it was not a valid block device; today I have only been able to mount it after booting over PXE, using qtparted to rewrite the partition table it had just read from it, and then it did mount alright
22:36:17 <kandinski> cowan, thitherto
22:36:22 <kandinski> pointing to yesterday
22:36:26 <cowan> k: nice, but no seegar.
22:36:27 <sbp> surely you'd just say the same thing. take "previously" as a synonym: "previously [to yesterday], you did not know..."
22:36:45 <cowan> No, because "hitherto" means "previously to now"; it's indexical.
22:36:49 <sbp> hmm
22:36:54 <kandinski> so I would say: Cowan learned me good last Sunday, thitherto I had no idea to what it meant
22:37:10 <kandinski> s/it/"hitherto"/
22:37:25 <deltab> theretofore
22:37:49 <kandinski> ah, deltab, that was byootifool
22:37:53 <sbp> * sbp nods
22:38:17 <cowan> Correct! (The duck falls on deltab's head.)
22:38:46 <deltab> From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
22:38:46 <deltab> Thitherto \Thith"er*to`\, adv.
22:38:46 <deltab> To that point; so far. [Obs.]
22:39:06 <cowan> Obs. is right. But we do have the pair heretofore/theretofore still in current use.
22:39:27 <cowan> Among sesquipedaliphiles, that is.
22:39:44 <kandinski> sesquipedalian, the fact is I once learned what that meant...
22:39:54 <kandinski> but I didn't learn it good enough, it seems
22:40:08 <deltab> sesquipedalia
22:40:08 <deltab> n : a very long word (a foot and a half long) [syn: {sesquipedalian}]
22:40:12 <cowan> partaking of being a foot and half (45 cm) long.
22:40:34 <cowan> Here we engage in Sesquipedalian Verboojuice.
22:40:41 <kandinski> sesquiannual affairs are held every 18 months, of course
22:40:57 <sbp> Encyclopaedia Brittanica: "In 539 Cyrus II of Persia followed up his triumph over Media by conquering Lydia and Babylonia, thus making himself ruler of the greatest empire thitherto known."
22:41:24 <cowan> bi- and sesqui- are often mixed up nowadays.
22:41:48 <cowan> There is a distressing tendency to say "bimonthly" for "twice a month".
22:42:05 <sbp> "We owe this word to the Roman writer Horace, who wrote in his Ars Poetica (The Art of Poetry): Proicit ampullas et sesquipedalia verba (He throws aside his paint pots and his words that are a foot and a half long)." - http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-ses1.htm
22:42:20 <sbp> heh. the bi- confusion is vexing
22:43:19 <cowan> Though we do not hear of sesquisexuality. Yet.
22:43:55 <deltab> sesquiality for short
22:44:20 <cowan> A new spammer's word. "Do you suffer from the ravages of sesquiality?"
22:53:25 <kandinski> good for job interviews
22:53:53 <kandinski> "I am a very sesquial person. I always give 150% effort"
22:55:48 <deltab> "I'm heterosesquial: I do the other 150% of the work"
22:56:44 <sbp> sigh. what's that word that gives rise to a paradox again? (the one where if you consider it as describing itself, it both is and isn't)
22:57:26 <cowan> Heterological.
22:57:27 <kandinski> heteronomical, if I recall correctly
22:57:32 <d8uv> BAD WINDOWS
22:57:48 <kandinski> which only goes to prove that I *didn't* recall correctly
22:58:31 <sbp> heterological: thanks, that's the one
22:58:38 <cowan> Grelling definitely wrote "heterologisch", which may have gotten translated into Spanish as something involving "nomos".
22:59:28 <cowan> Words that are not heterological are autological. Natuerlich.
22:59:50 <cowan> "'Short' is a short word, 'old' is an old word."
22:59:59 <cowan> From Hansard:
23:00:02 <cowan> I have discussed the matter with the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart and we are not sure whether this very serious breach of confidentiality occurred because only three Members' names feature between us in the alphabetical list of Members' names or because both of us have the wisdom to employ Scots parliamentary assistants who share the name Campbell.
23:00:32 <cowan> It took me a while to figure out that "feature" is a verb.
23:02:16 <kandinski> cowan, I am incredibly bad with literal memory
23:02:23 <sbp> or so you think
23:02:40 <kandinski> I rework lyrics all the time, the verses scan but the words are slightly off all the time
23:02:42 <kandinski> no, really
23:02:45 <kandinski> I have studied this
23:03:22 <kandinski> translator friends who translate "25" (in English) to "32" because it has the same number of syllables...
23:03:32 <kandinski> ... but they don't do that because they are dubbing a film...
23:03:44 <kandinski> ...they do it *unconsciusly*
23:04:08 <kandinski> because, in the context, psychologically, "25==32" is true
23:04:15 <deltab> unconscionably
23:04:17 <kandinski> or 25~32, at any rate
23:04:29 <kandinski> unconscionatelyment
23:04:54 <cowan> With lyrics that is called the folk process.
23:07:57 <kandinski> well, that is the diacronic view
23:08:20 <kandinski> but synchronically, it is called "damn kandinski can't sing a lyric straight"
23:08:28 <cowan> Sam Ting.
23:09:34 <deltab> by the way, you might be interested in the dramatization on BBC Radio 4 this afternoon of "Pamela; or Virtue Rewarded", which featured many unusual phrasings I couldn't find in the Project Gutenberg text
23:09:57 <kandinski> Pamela, Shamela.
23:11:01 <cowan> I might be, but it's a little out of reach.
23:12:36 <H0gan> *** H0gan has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:13:38 <deltab> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/classic_serial.shtml
23:16:39 <cowan> sbp: what, you actually defend "publically"? "Publicly"! "Publicly"! "Publicly"!
23:16:49 <cowan> And I make it three syllables, not four.
23:18:18 <cowan> Grrr.
23:18:32 <sbp> I make it three syllables too, but the "al" is so illogical that is must have some value for it to have arisen at all
23:18:38 <sbp> s/that is/that it/
23:19:34 <sbp> but I also spell diphthong "dipthong", so I don't know
23:19:37 <knoppix__> *** knoppix__ (~knoppix@80-28-219-4.adsl.nuria.telefonica-data.net) has joined #swhack
23:19:51 <sbp> apophthegm could only be "apophthegm"
23:19:57 <deltab> Freudian, perhaps
23:19:59 <cowan> I think it's just confusion with all the words that legitimately end in -ally.
23:20:04 <sbp> heh
23:20:19 <cowan> Why, you don't think apophtheghmh would be better?
23:20:21 <deltab> you want a thong that dips
23:20:21 <sbp> certainally not
23:20:36 <cowan> Think how good it would look in Gaelic script, with dots!
23:21:32 <sbp> actuly, apophtheghmh's quite nice...
23:21:36 <cowan> Even I don't pronounce "apophthegm" as written, and if I did, it would sound like "opossum" with a lithp.
23:21:52 <sbp> ha
23:22:09 <sbp> yes, it's like haypth
23:22:29 <cowan> I do say [klouDZ] for "clothes", though.
23:22:47 <cowan> Though I jib at [Oftn=] for "often".
23:23:22 <sbp> * sbp tries to keep his rampant th -> v-ing quiet
23:23:37 <sbp> [Of&n] for you?
23:23:42 <cowan> The GET/POST gateway is cool, but architecturally dangerous.
23:24:02 <cowan> well, not exactly &. [n=] is syllabic n.
23:24:04 <sbp> very much so. though I'm planning on setting its own User-Agent, and getting it to obey robots.txt
23:24:10 <sbp> ah
23:24:26 <cowan> as in "button", one of the few t -> glottal stop words I have.
23:24:40 <deusx> *** deusx has quit (Remote closed the connection)
23:25:05 <sbp> and yet not "mutton", I'll bet or wager
23:25:06 <cowan> Why robots.txt? It's a gateway, not a spider.
23:25:17 <cowan> Yeah, "mutton" too.
23:25:39 <sbp> seems like one way of reducing the controversy. I can't begin to imagine what sort of www-tag response it'll generate
23:25:49 <knoppix__> I loved glottal stops when I first landed in London
23:25:56 <knoppix__> nobody had ever taught that to me formally
23:26:13 <cowan> But I pronounce "bet or wager" with a flap r, like most North Americans.
23:26:27 <cowan> That is, the "t" is a flap r, not the "r"!
23:26:41 <knoppix__> I couldn't understand a thing, and to my ears the sound of street speech was so -- unlike English!
23:26:50 <cowan> tee hee
23:27:32 <jeremiah> do you start speaking more like english people or does the american ness stay?
23:27:43 <sbp> "wait, English speaking countries don't have red buses either do they? this is Mexico! I took the wrong 'plane!"
23:27:56 <knoppix__> no, I had been taught by English speakers
23:28:07 <knoppix__> who spoke all Received Pronounciation and posh
23:28:21 <knoppix__> my first teacher was a really old codger
23:29:12 <knoppix__> and his assistant was Jamaican but spoke quite formally, so I was not prepared for London
23:29:55 <jeremiah> i don't know if i'd even be prepared for it, and I'm american
23:29:58 <sbp> deehn in sarf lahrndun they's even arder to get, innit?
23:30:36 <cowan> We cope.
23:30:38 <jeremiah> yep, definately got the wrong lid for my trash can
23:30:46 <cowan> Cool link of the day:
23:30:53 <knoppix__> sbp, kind of
23:30:56 <knoppix__> but worse
23:31:00 <xover> Hmmm? GET/POST gateway?
23:31:02 <knoppix__> they wouldn't understand me either
23:31:11 <cowan> Just Fucking Google It (where to send the clueless): http://justfuckinggoogleit.com
23:31:11 <swhacker> posted 409
23:31:38 <knoppix__> I would say Fucking Google *For* It
23:31:38 <sbp> hehe
23:31:40 <sbp> 409::They gave you a link to this site as a joke. The fact that you followed it pretty much proves the point.
23:31:50 <knoppix__> you say "googleit", I say "googleforit"
23:32:04 <knoppix__> "googleit! googleforit!!
23:32:07 <knoppix__> "
23:32:17 <knoppix__> "Let's call the whole thing off"
23:32:27 <knoppix__> "you say GET, I say POST"
23:32:38 <knoppix__> "GET, POST, GET, POST"
23:32:42 <jeremiah> i am now in durham, hopefully to stay put for more than 5 days
23:32:48 <knoppix__> "let's call the whole thing off"
23:32:54 <knoppix__> * knoppix__ hums
23:34:10 <deusx> *** deusx (~deusx@216.17.101.46) has joined #swhack
23:35:29 <q8uv> *** q8uv (d8uv@218-158-223-66.gci.net) has joined #swhack
23:36:03 <jeremiah> it's awfully hard to accidentally suffocate on a plasti cbag
23:36:15 <cowan> Not if you are a toddler.
23:36:22 <cowan> who's been given one as a toy.
23:36:25 <cowan> They used to do that.
23:36:42 <kandinski> *** kandinski has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:36:55 <jeremiah> yeah, i was trying to see if i could get it to a point where it wouldn't come off my face, it said "sticks to face"
23:37:08 <jeremiah> i've become quite a moron since school ended for the year
23:37:21 <cowan> sbp: what's the diff between "409:" and "409::" in channel?
23:37:24 <d8uv> *** d8uv has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:37:46 <sbp> :: means "update excerpt" whereas : means "post a comment"
23:37:59 <sbp> an excerpt is displayed as a blockquote in the swhacker/swhackit output
23:38:31 <xover> * xover scans logs looking for origins of GET/POST gateway reference...
23:38:40 <sbp> scan your inbox instead
23:38:47 <xover> * xover fails to find anything that seemes relevant...
23:38:54 <sbp> and then check out http://inamidst.com/getpost
23:39:07 <xover> Ah.
23:41:35 <xover> The TAG will say "That's nice. Now go away kid, ya bother me!".
23:41:37 <sbp> phenny: tell Morbus to tell sbp to send a message to pubrixt on Monday
23:41:38 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell morbus that when they're around.
23:42:09 <xover> Hmmm. robots.txt... This is more of a proxy than a RobotUA I think. No?
23:42:41 <cowan> Yes, but it's the best he can do.
23:43:04 <cowan> I just fear that it will make the "GET doesn't inflict damage" rule even harder to enforce than it already is.
23:43:56 <sbp> and the "use GET not POST where appropriate", for the same reason that lax parsing in browsers gave rise to tagsoup
23:44:05 <xover> That's probably because the "GET is idempotent" rule is silly and unenforceable, and should be abandoned as soon as possible.
23:44:07 <sbp> add "maxim" in there somewhere
23:44:41 <cowan> GET isn't idempotent; consider a GET for "current weather in Cancun", to take the old chestnut.
23:44:55 <cowan> But the idea is that following a link, as such, shouldn't commit you to anything.
23:45:01 <cowan> Hmm.
23:45:17 <cowan> Does that mean that all those "Click here if you are over 18" links on pr0n home pages are architecturally incorrect?
23:45:36 <sbp> GETting the current weather in Cancun doesn't change the weather in Cancun :-)
23:45:38 <xover> TAG vs. Pr0n: Tonight On The Adult Channel!
23:45:40 <sbp> of course
23:45:55 <sbp> for a start they don't consider language implications
23:46:09 <sbp> same will all the "if you agree to the above license" links, etc.
23:46:21 <cowan> They are unenforceable anyhow.
23:46:42 <clsn> *** clsn (~shoulson@h-66-134-26-207.nycmny83.covad.net) has joined #swhack
23:47:29 <xover> cowan: Word of warning before we get into this topic; DanC managed to get himself way waaaaay up on my personal shitlist by steamrollering on the GET vs. POST debate. It's a somewhat touchy subject.
23:47:35 <sbp> I raised that comment on #wiki a while ago even for POST: meatball wiki has a note saying that if you submit some text to the wiki, you agree to such-and-such a license, but for people who stumble across a snippet written in a non-English language and realise how wikis work without understanding the native language, that's not going to hold
23:48:14 <sbp> hey clsn. welcome to Swhack. this is a publically logged channel, so don't say anything that'd potentially damage your future political career. move the "potentially" about at your own leisure
23:48:16 <cowan> Oh yes it does. If you're dumb enough to manifest assent to a contract written in a language you don't understand, so much the worse for you.
23:48:26 <MoiraA> well, I'm off to bed
23:48:31 <cowan> Sweet dreams.
23:48:33 <MoiraA> is that a script you use sbp?
23:48:38 <MoiraA> when someone new joins
23:48:41 <clsn> Thanks, sbp.
23:48:44 <sbp> where is the assent manifested? you wouldn't even know it's a contract
23:48:57 <sbp> Moira: heh, nope. individually tailored to each entrant...
23:49:02 <Ash> kaboom
23:49:03 <MoiraA> you type fast then :)
23:49:12 <MoiraA> I was looking at that 3's poem
23:49:16 <xover> GET vs. POST has zero legal standing. You might as well argue that by clicking this <a href> you're selling yourself into slavery.
23:49:18 <MoiraA> has the same origin in music
23:49:30 <MoiraA> perfect time being triple time because it's associated with the trinity
23:49:45 <cowan> Excellent point.
23:49:45 <MoiraA> alla breve symbol ie duple time thought to be flawed, imperfect
23:50:00 <sbp> well, now getpost proves my point: someone can embed a link on a page that POSTs some text to a wiki, and you wouldn't even know it's being done
23:50:25 <sbp> hmm
23:51:00 <MoiraA> lol cowan, I'd like to think that was directed at me, but I guess you were talking to sbp
23:51:06 <MoiraA> anyway, nn
23:51:09 <MoiraA> new job tomorrow :)
23:51:42 <cowan> MoiraA: no, I meant you re: triple time.
23:51:49 <MoiraA> :))
23:52:25 <MoiraA> *** MoiraA is now known as MoiraA|sleep
23:53:11 <sbp> 'night Moira!
23:53:16 <MoiraA|sleep> nn
23:53:47 <Ash> moira not turning into a bed tonight
23:54:05 <MoiraA|sleep> lol
23:54:07 <MoiraA|sleep> I vary it
23:54:07 <sbp> didn't we decide it was Abraham Lincoln?
23:54:12 <MoiraA|sleep> stops you getting bored
23:54:21 <Ash> NOTORIOUS M.O.I.R.A.
23:54:31 <bjoern_> *** bjoern_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:54:43 <Ash> sbp displaying his desire to own a mac
23:55:03 <MoiraA|sleep> how about
23:55:04 <sbp> I beg your pardon?
23:55:13 <MoiraA|sleep> *** MoiraA|sleep is now known as m01|24|b3d
23:55:37 <cowan> * cowan scratches his head.
23:56:01 <cowan> sbp: if you do something *you* think of as a typical manifestation of assent, then you've assented.
23:56:13 <m01|24|b3d> *** m01|24|b3d is now known as |\
23:56:17 <|\> damn
23:56:19 <|\> lol
23:56:21 <cowan> So if it's customary to spit in your hand and then shake, that's a contract, even if you didn't understand th terms at the time.
23:56:32 <|\> wtf went wrong with that?
23:56:40 <|\> *** |\ is now known as m01|24|b3d
23:56:57 <m01|24|b3d> hell
23:57:07 <m01|24|b3d> maybe I'll stick to MoiraA|sleep
23:57:14 <m01|24|b3d> just got this notice from freenode :/
23:57:22 <m01|24|b3d> [00:56] -NickServ- This nickname may not be used. Please choose another.
23:57:23 <m01|24|b3d> -
23:57:23 <m01|24|b3d> [00:56] -NickServ- If you do not change within one minute, you will be disconnected
23:57:29 <sbp> I'd expect that for someone posting to a wiki, they wouldn't think of it as assent to sign away their licensing rights
23:57:43 <sbp> that's interesting
23:57:44 <xover> cowan: No. If a stranger spits in his hand and then shakes your's, that's *not* a contract.
23:57:52 <cowan> I can see it getting upset at a nick like |\, yes.
23:58:15 <cowan> It is if the stranger intended to manifest assent to some proposal I had made to him, even if it was in Lower Slobbovian.
23:58:27 <sbp> why's that? it's been getting stricter lately--it won't let you impersonate *Serv services now, for example
23:58:50 <cowan> Maybe it uses \ as an escape internally.
23:58:51 <xover> A stranger cannot bind _me_ to a contract if I do not know I've entered into one, no matter the method.
23:58:56 <cowan> nick \
23:59:17 <xover> The argument would then be over whether I "should have understood" that it was a contract.
23:59:41 <cowan> xover: you're right as far as that goes.
23:59:51 <xover> I am missing something here?
23:59:52 <clsn> This sounds like a great talmudic argument. It probably is, if I could remember the relevant tractate.
23:59:56 <cowan> But if I sign a document, then I am bound even if I don't undrerstand the document,
