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01:05:58 <Monty> bah, it's MoiraA again
01:06:13 <MoiraA> hiya
01:06:15 <MoiraA> yes
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02:01:32 <Monty> hi MoiraA, how ya doing?
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02:07:08 <cowan> Swhack!
02:07:31 <JibberJim> FAQ
02:12:34 <cowan> I have some frequently questioned answers in stock, would that help?
02:13:42 <JibberJim> They'd certainly help as a start
02:14:35 <cowan> How about this one.
02:15:04 <cowan> "The GPL actually works. Nobody wants to challenge it in court. People who say it doesn't work should reuse GPLed code and invite the FSF to sue them."
02:17:09 <JibberJim> that's useful, not sure exactly how much I can use it on its own
02:19:04 <cowan> Useful for shutting up anti-GPL zealots. Except Brett Glass. Nobody can shut him up, ever.
02:20:14 <JibberJim> * JibberJim rarely meets such beasts.
02:20:40 <JibberJim> now if you have something for strange spin off working group people?
02:20:55 <cowan> What's the spinoff WG?
02:21:23 <JibberJim> whatwg.org
02:22:59 <cowan> Checking...
02:24:00 <cowan> Ah. Are these the WebForms 2.0 people? I owe them a LOC.
02:24:54 <JibberJim> Letter Of Commendation ?
02:24:59 <cowan> Comment.
02:25:01 <JibberJim> s/people/person/ but yes.
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02:41:26 <cowan> looks mostly like a way to do what XHTML 2.0 (XForms, XEvents, etc.) does but in a different way.
02:42:42 <JibberJim> in an incompatible with all the other specs, but maybe we can hack up some script to make it work in IE6 way.
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03:21:04 <Monty> it's MoiraA!
03:25:08 <cowan> Who can think of a Greek word containing (especially beginning with) "skn"?
03:26:54 <d8uv> Best I've found is "proskalew"
03:27:47 <d8uv> Sorry
03:32:28 <cowan> sk, plenty; skl, plenty; supposedly skn exists but I can't find any.
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03:48:38 <AaronSw> Anybody know how to spell ky-RON?
03:48:39 <phenny> AaronSw: jcowan told me to tell you: "Is there a check in swhacker against blogging the same link twice? If not, there should be, at least within the current month. Thanks." (at 2004-06-10 22:08:19.661668)
03:49:49 <cowan> AaronSw: context?
03:50:15 <AaronSw> it's the thing that goes at the bottom of the television picture to give the name and affilation of the current talking head
03:53:50 <cowan> "Go ahead and get a stool sample." "Business, or personal?" --Ghostbusters II
03:57:00 <cowan> Lojban-related quotation of the day: "Presumably the only event of vomiting that interests me in this case is me a reasonable time after this eating."
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04:01:11 <AaronSw> So nobody knows how to spell kyron?
04:01:50 <cowan> I've been googling w/o success.
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04:05:43 <AaronSw> Yeah, maybe Google should have a soundex function or something like that.
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04:59:40 <deltab> where did you hear "kyron" for those?
05:03:10 <deltab> as far as I know, they're called astons
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05:18:28 <Monty> But what does kandinski have to do with the price of fish?
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05:55:16 <Monty> welcome, MoiraA
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08:16:09 <Monty> yo MoiraA!
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08:31:19 <Monty> hi MoiraA
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09:00:11 <Talliesin> Hello dearhearts
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10:02:55 <d8uv> phenny: tell MoiraA "YOUR ISP SUCKS"
10:02:55 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell moiraa that when they're around.
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11:14:33 <evangineer_> hi
11:15:04 <evangineer_> for you RDF mavens, which RDF query languages if any have traction?
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11:48:54 <Monty> howdy, MoiraA
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12:03:35 <Talliesin> * Talliesin rubs his eyes
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12:03:49 <Talliesin> I'm seeing triple!
12:04:47 <JibberJim> an RDF QL will help sort you out then.
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12:58:54 <Talliesin> *** Talliesin has changed the topic to: What part of ambiguous do you understand?
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13:45:19 <sal> are we having problems?
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14:09:28 <Monty> hi bjoern_
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14:34:48 <kandinski_> Swhack!!!!!!
14:34:53 <kandinski_> URRRRLLLLLLL!!!!!!
14:37:41 <JibberJim> Hay kandinski
14:39:24 <kandinski_> hay
14:39:40 <kandinski_> "hay" in Spanish meaning "there is"
14:39:46 <kandinski_> so you just said:
14:40:02 <kandinski_> <JibberJim> There is kandinski
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14:41:54 <Talliesin> "hay" in English meaning "grass mowed and cured for use as fodder"
14:41:58 <Talliesin> so he just said:
14:41:58 <JibberJim> exactly what I intended :-)
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14:42:13 <Talliesin> <JibberJim> Grass mowed and cured for use as fodder kandinski
14:42:30 <JibberJim> * JibberJim was speaking Jibberish, and I said
14:42:47 <JibberJim> <JibberJim> Hi, how's things going with you kandinski
14:42:58 <Talliesin> Also a town in South Wales famous for it's annual literary festival.
14:43:22 <JibberJim> an abbreviation of the towns name?
14:43:44 <Talliesin> Yes,
14:44:03 <Talliesin> It's allowable to abbreviate a town name of the form X on Y to X.
14:44:33 <JibberJim> does that not cause problems when visiting newcastle?
14:45:47 <JibberJim> I suppose it's not acceptable with under/upon
14:48:12 <Talliesin> But you've just abbreviated also
14:48:44 <Talliesin> (Assuming you mean Newcastle upon Tyne, rather than Newcastle, Co. Down or Newcastle Co. Wicklow, or any other Newcastle)
14:49:04 <JibberJim> indeed, so it ain't acceptable...
14:49:13 <Talliesin> It is when unambiguous.
14:49:22 <Talliesin> As with all abbreviations.
14:49:46 <Talliesin> BTW is generally an acceptable abbreviation on most lists, channels etc. for "By The Way".
14:50:07 <Talliesin> But not on one I'm on, where it would be confused with "British Traditional Witchcraft").
14:50:28 <Talliesin> Likewise Reality Distortion Field shouldn't be abbreviated on #rdfig
14:51:06 <JibberJim> rats not on this server...
14:54:32 <kandinski_> I love the IRC sub-subcultures of some channels
14:54:54 <kandinski_> in #barrapunto, for instance, people salute each other feigning surprise
14:55:06 <kandinski_> and treating each other as a member of a species
14:55:09 <kandinski_> as in:
14:55:15 <kandinski_> hey, a Talliesin!
14:55:22 <kandinski_> a jibber!
14:56:07 <JibberJim> * JibberJim is an order, not just a lowly species
14:57:17 <kandinski_> JibberJim is a tall order
14:57:24 <kandinski_> although not as tall as chaals
14:57:25 <kandinski_> damn
14:57:52 <kandinski_> he is a gentle being, but he is the hunkiest computer scientist I have ever met
14:58:02 <kandinski_> (well, he is a historian, so...)
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15:25:39 <Monty> hey MoiraA
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15:47:37 <redmonk> swhack!
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16:03:04 <jcowan> swhack!
16:03:05 <phenny> jcowan: sbp told me to tell you: that his pronominal mungings, as requested in http://swhack.com/logs/2004-06-11#T18-04-23, have now been implemented. thanks for the suggestion! (at 2004-06-13 18:58:26.136810)
16:03:32 <jcowan> phenny, tell jcowan that you think he is a fool and so do I.
16:03:32 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell jcowan that when they're around.
16:03:32 <phenny> jcowan: jcowan told me to tell you: that jcowan think he is a fool and so do jcowan. (at 2004-06-14 16:03:32.335241)
16:03:54 <jcowan> phenny, tell cowan that you think he is a fool and so do I
16:03:55 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell cowan that when they're around.
16:03:58 <jcowan> *** jcowan is now known as cowan
16:04:32 <cowan> Hmm, phenny /msg-ed me with that one. I wonder why.
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16:13:19 <Monty> it's MoiraA!
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16:41:59 <jcowan> I'm beginning to see TimBL referred to here and there as "STimBL".
16:42:47 <kandinski_> Saint TimBL?
16:42:55 <kandinski_> or "Some TimBL"?
16:43:03 <jcowan> Sir.
16:43:08 <kandinski_> ah
16:43:30 <kandinski_> or (pointing) "Sweet! TimBL!"
16:44:02 <kandinski_> or (smacking hir forehead) <Smack!> TimBL...
16:45:26 <jcowan> He is now "Sir Tim" or "Sir Tim Berners-Lee, KBE [Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire]".
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16:47:51 <kandinski_> (I had got it)
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16:58:34 <NickServ> This nickname is owned by someone else
16:58:34 <NickServ> If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
16:59:15 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's inkel!
16:59:18 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's hamm_!
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16:59:26 <jsled> * jsled pokes Monty
16:59:27 <Monty> look like them interesting news?
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17:03:13 <Talliesin> hello
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17:32:03 <dmwaters> {global notice} Good day all! Freenode is currently looking for a few more main rotation servers...If you may be able to sponsor a main rotation server, plese take a look at 'http://www.freenode.net/hosting_ircd.shtml' . Thank you for using freenode!
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18:25:11 <jcowan> The reason I can't rack up the big-time uptimes on my Linux system is the unreliable hardware it runs on, namely Windows XP.
18:25:35 <kandinski_work> heh
18:25:42 <kandinski_work> you a colinux or vmware guy?
18:26:09 <kandinski_work> * kandinski_work is resigned to try colinux after borking his laptop with debian...
18:32:57 <MoiraA> hello
18:33:11 <MoiraA> what is colinux?
18:34:45 <kandinski_work> the Linux kernel, loaded under Windows as a device driver
18:34:53 <MoiraA> hmmm
18:34:55 <MoiraA> sounds complex
18:35:05 <kandinski_work> allowing Windows and a Linux based OS to operate simultaneously
18:49:55 <jcowan> vmware
18:50:30 <jcowan> that's an application program plus a driver: it's proprietary, but it gives you full virtual PCs to run any OS you want.
18:50:52 <jcowan> I can run Red Hat (most of the time), Debian (as needed), and FreeBSD (as needed) simultaneously.
18:51:42 <sal> yes. vmware is nice.
18:53:13 <jcowan> I tried to bring up plan 9 once, but it was borked.
18:54:43 <jcowan> Gack, 80 MB. Hefty. But then plan 9 has no packages, only ports.
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19:28:14 <jcowan> Plan 9 boots! I'm logged in!
19:30:29 <sbp`> * sbp` waves
19:30:31 <sbp`> *** sbp` is now known as sbp
19:30:42 <sbp> * sbp waves as sbp
19:31:19 <jotbot> *** jotbot (sbp@vorpal.notabug.com) has joined #swhack
19:31:46 <sbp> it's time for one of those Swhack Bot Demonstration moments
19:32:13 <sbp> this is what I've been working on over the weekend, and whilst it ain't fully polished yet, I think it's good enough to both demonstrate and perhaps even use
19:32:14 <Moira> *** Moira (~ratki9119@ACBA23BA.ipt.aol.com) has joined #swhack
19:32:19 <sbp> jotbot: help?
19:32:19 <jotbot> Hi. I'm a note jotting bot, written by sbp
19:32:20 <jotbot> To start an entry, type '<<<' on a single line
19:32:21 <jotbot> Everything you type from then on will be part of the entry
19:32:23 <jotbot> I use Pwyky wiki syntax: http://infomesh.net/pwyky/
19:32:25 <jotbot> To seperate paragraphs, use '..' on a single line
19:32:25 <jotbot> The link syntax is {URI title}
19:32:27 <jotbot> I won't post any line starting with ':', e.g. commands
19:32:28 <jotbot> Commands I know: move, set, grep, sub, get, <<<, alias, add, html, ls, >>>, delete
19:32:30 <jotbot> For more help on a command, do: jotbot: help <command>?
19:32:32 <jotbot> To finish an entry, use '>>>' on a single line.
19:32:45 <sbp> at the moment, it's going to publish all of its material to:
19:32:45 <sbp> http://swhack.com/notes/
19:33:06 <sbp> here's a page I just made using it, explaining some of its most rudimentary features: http://swhack.com/notes/jotbot
19:33:18 <sbp> <<< swhack
19:34:01 <sbp> whoops, too severe an admin module. hang on
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19:35:17 <sbp> <<< swhack
19:35:17 <jotbot> Will create swhack on ">>>".
19:35:17 <jotbot> Writing to 2
19:35:24 <sbp> @ Swhack IRC Channel
19:35:24 <jotbot> 2.1
19:35:25 <supybot> sbp: Error: 'Swhack' is not a valid command.
19:35:30 <jsled> heh
19:36:38 <sbp> : okay, and now we can continue...
19:36:53 <jcowan> jotbot: help sub
19:36:54 <jotbot> sub: :sub(g?) <id> "<fore>" "<aft>" - Change fore to aft in id.
19:37:17 <sbp> Swhack is an IRC channel on the {http://freenode.net/ Freenode IRC network}. Check out its {http://swhack.com/ homepage} for more details.
19:37:17 <jotbot> 2.2.1
19:37:20 <jcowan> jotbot: help alias
19:37:20 <jotbot> alias: :alias <name> <command> - Alias ::name to command.
19:37:31 <jcowan> jotbot: help html
19:37:31 <jotbot> html: :html <id> - Print out <id> as HTML.
19:37:33 <sbp> Some people on Swhack right now:
19:37:33 <jotbot> 2.2.2
19:37:35 <sbp> * sbp
19:37:35 <jotbot> 2.3.1
19:37:38 <sbp> * jcowan
19:37:39 <jotbot> 2.3.2
19:37:40 <sbp> >>>
19:37:40 <jotbot> Wrote note to 2
19:37:40 <jotbot> Published note to swhack.
19:37:56 <sbp> demonstration of one of its features: you can append to lists etc. that already exist within document
19:37:59 <sbp> er, document
19:38:01 <sbp> ...s!
19:38:12 <sbp> :a swhack.3 jsled
19:38:12 <jotbot> Added 2.3.3
19:38:13 <jotbot> Published 2 to swhack.
19:38:22 <sbp> :grep 2.3.3 li
19:38:22 <jotbot> exceptions.ValueError: Too many parts to the ID.
19:38:27 <sbp> :grep 2.3 li
19:38:27 <jotbot> <li id="id2.3.1">sbp</li>
19:38:28 <jotbot> <li id="id2.3.2">jcowan</li>
19:38:29 <jotbot> <li id="id2.3.3">jsled</li>
19:38:38 <jcowan> Is it reentrant, or only one jotter at a time?
19:39:27 <sbp> anyone can edit anything at any time, IIRC. I was considering putting an edit lock on all documents opened with <<<, but I don't think it's worth it really
19:39:54 <sbp> it might be a pain when two people are editing the same document simultaneously and the tumbler order changes
19:40:01 <Morbus> *** Morbus (~morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
19:40:04 <jcowan> I think the top-level numbers suck, given that you have names too.
19:40:19 <jcowan> Hey, Morbus.
19:40:19 <sbp> but that allows you to create documents for now without naming them
19:40:21 <sbp> <<<
19:40:21 <jotbot> Writing to 3
19:40:26 <sbp> For example, this one.
19:40:27 <jotbot> 3.1.1
19:40:36 <jcowan> Foo. How much work is it to name a document "foo"?
19:40:44 <sbp> This'll also pose as a nice demonstration to Morbus, to let him know of the most recent insanity.
19:40:45 <jotbot> 3.1.2
19:40:50 <sbp> >>>
19:40:50 <jotbot> Wrote note to 3
19:40:55 <Morbus> hey jcowan
19:40:55 <phenny> Morbus: sbp told me to tell you: no I'm not sending you any of my underwear, and please stop asking--I'm getting sick and tired of it (at 2004-06-11 20:40:15.067769)
19:41:06 <jcowan> rotflmao
19:41:07 <sbp> there are only so many metasyntactic variables in the world
19:41:20 <sbp> * sbp chuckles
19:41:29 <jcowan> foo, bar, baz, qux, quux, quuux, quuuux, quuuuux, ....
19:41:35 <sbp> it's been three days since I set that! where've you been, Morbus?
19:41:40 <jcowan> Maybe numbers would be better at that.
19:41:46 <Morbus> weekends are my masturbation period.
19:41:47 <sbp> and what happens when you tread on someone else's variable?
19:41:51 <sbp> Morbus: ahh!
19:41:57 <sbp> also: Morbus: aargh!
19:42:13 <jcowan> <<< swhack
19:42:13 <jotbot> Writing to 2
19:42:26 <jcowan> * morbus
19:42:26 <jotbot> 2.4.1
19:42:28 <jcowan> >>>
19:42:28 <jotbot> Wrote note to 2
19:42:28 <jotbot> Published note to swhack.
19:43:07 <d8uv> <<< 2.3
19:43:07 <jotbot> Writing to 2.3
19:43:08 <sbp> at the moment, it's set to force a new block when you reopen a document. I can change that behaviour if people want me to
19:43:15 <d8uv> * d8uv
19:43:15 <jotbot> 2.3.1
19:43:17 <d8uv> >>>
19:43:17 <jotbot> Wrote note to 2
19:43:19 <sbp> 2.3 will now be a block in front of that. heh
19:43:28 <Morbus> <<< 6.6
19:43:28 <jotbot> exceptions.IOError: Note 6 couldn't be opened.
19:43:33 <Morbus> * morbus
19:43:35 <Morbus> >>>
19:43:35 <jotbot> exceptions.KeyError: 'Morbus'
19:43:41 <Morbus> WINNAH
19:43:50 <sbp> heh
19:44:00 <sbp> can't open something that doesn't exist yet
19:44:06 <sbp> all the error messages are just boilerplate
19:44:24 <sbp> :alias swhack-member :a swhack.4
19:44:24 <jotbot> Created alias "swhack-member".
19:44:29 <sbp> ::swhack-member d8uv
19:44:29 <jotbot> Doing alias: ":a swhack.4".
19:44:29 <jotbot> Added 2.4.4
19:44:29 <jotbot> Published 2 to swhack.
19:44:32 <sbp> ::swhack-member Morbus
19:44:32 <jotbot> Doing alias: ":a swhack.4".
19:44:32 <jotbot> Added 2.4.5
19:44:32 <jotbot> Published 2 to swhack.
19:44:51 <sbp> :delete swhack.3.1
19:44:51 <jotbot> Removed 2.3.1
19:44:51 <jotbot> Published 2 to swhack.
19:44:54 <d8uv> :a ?
19:44:58 <d8uv> Append?
19:45:03 <sbp> :delete swhack.4.1
19:45:03 <jotbot> Removed 2.4.1
19:45:03 <jotbot> Published 2 to swhack.
19:45:12 <sbp> yeah. :add, :a, :append--all the same function
19:45:25 <sbp> :alias swhack-member :a swhack.3
19:45:25 <jotbot> Created alias "swhack-member".
19:45:36 <sbp> <<< jotbot
19:45:36 <jotbot> Writing to 1
19:45:46 <jcowan> * jcowan notes sbp's remark "it might be a pain when two people" etc. and replies "So don't do that, then."
19:45:47 <sbp> @ Issues! There Are Always Issues...
19:45:47 <jotbot> 1.11
19:45:47 <supybot> sbp: Error: 'Issues!' is not a valid command.
19:46:01 <jcowan> Need to change the markup a bit, what?
19:46:32 <sbp> * When people move items about, aliases start to break. Robust aliases would be nicer: e.g. the first list after the heading with "Todo" in it in "swhack".
19:46:33 <jotbot> 1.12.1
19:46:38 <sbp> >>>
19:46:39 <jotbot> Wrote note to 1
19:46:39 <jotbot> Published note to jotbot.
19:47:01 <sbp> the markup is basically rubbish, yes
19:47:37 <sbp> I don't want plinks all over the damn place either: I've set myself a todo item to either have them appear only on mouseover/focus, or set them as titles (d8uv's suggestion), etc.
19:48:05 <d8uv> :sub 2.3.4 {http://d8uv.com d8uv}
19:48:05 <jotbot> exceptions.Exception: Er... from and to, please.
19:48:17 <d8uv> :sub 2.3.4 d8uv {http://d8uv.com d8uv}
19:48:17 <jotbot> exceptions.Exception: Er... from and to, please.
19:48:19 <sbp> jotbot: help sub?
19:48:19 <jotbot> sub: :sub(g?) <id> "<fore>" "<aft>" - Change fore to aft in id.
19:48:25 <sbp> include the quote marks
19:48:31 <d8uv> :sub 2.3.4 "d8uv" "{http://d8uv.com d8uv}"
19:48:31 <jotbot> Replaced 'd8uv' -> '{http://d8uv.com d8uv}' in 2.3.4
19:48:39 <jcowan> Does sub replace all instances?
19:48:41 <jsled> LOOSAH!
19:48:45 <sbp> <<< swhack
19:48:45 <jotbot> Writing to 2
19:48:46 <sbp> >>>
19:48:46 <jotbot> Wrote note to 2
19:48:46 <jotbot> Published note to swhack.
19:48:54 <sbp> winnah
19:49:00 <d8uv> phenny: tell jotbot to screw off
19:49:00 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell jotbot that when they're around.
19:49:01 <sbp> jcowan: :subg will do that
19:49:21 <sbp> I was thinking about :sub -g etc., but the regexp was easier for :subg :-)
19:49:29 <jcowan> Make it gsub for awk compatibility.
19:49:49 <d8uv> awk is suck
19:50:03 <sbp> done. will work on next restart
19:50:11 <jcowan> d8uv: That's why I'm writing a replacement
19:50:33 <jcowan> Awk's problem is that it's not compact and it's not extensible either, so it falls between the cracks.
19:52:12 <deltab> what do you mean by that?
19:52:42 <jcowan> sort -t: -k7 /etc/passwd | bae -t: 'g, avg(c)' sorts /etc/passwd by shells and prints the average user ID for each shell.
19:53:19 <jcowan> You can't add anything to awk, so you're stuck with whatever your implementation has, unlike Perl/Python/Ruby.
19:53:33 <jcowan> People have written Lisp interpreters and nroff emulators in awk, so you *can* do such things.
19:53:42 <jcowan> But they're perverse and don't lead to reusable parts.
19:54:10 <jcowan> So it only makes sense to use awk nowadays as a command-line tool, for which purpose it is too general and too messy.
19:54:48 <inkel> *** inkel has left #swhack
19:54:58 <jcowan> Keeping a whole separate programming language in mind just for command-line purposes is too much to ask.
19:55:18 <jcowan> So people write trivial P/P/R instead, which is overkill and a memory/time hog.
19:55:40 <deltab> so what would you have replace it?
19:57:25 <jcowan> bae (basic arithmetic expressions) lets you write filters that do simple arithmetic expressions on the input. The fields are named a, b, c, ... but you can override this.
19:57:50 <jcowan> It also handles some useful functions as well as SQL-style aggregators (as long as the input is correctly sorted already).
19:58:05 <jcowan> See above sort | bae command.
19:58:08 <sbp> got src?
19:58:14 <jcowan> No got code yet.
19:58:29 <jcowan> I'm hoping to be able to recycle some bits from the mawk source.
19:58:40 <sbp> I started on a sed replacement once, but didn't get very far. I need to learn more C, really
19:59:13 <jcowan> My other cool tool, which is much farther along, is sre (structural regular expressions); I talked about that here some already.
19:59:27 <sbp> * sbp nods
19:59:53 <jcowan> The perl prototype works beautifully, and I'm about 75% done with the C version.
20:00:36 <sbp> * sbp reads teh precis again
20:02:02 <jcowan> Ah.
20:02:11 <sbp> deltab once challenged me to write a regexp which only matches itself
20:02:33 <sbp> I failed, and I think it's impossible. I managed to write one which only matches a finite number of strings, including itself, though
20:03:29 <sbp> r'^\^[\][{}22\\^$]{22}\$\$$'
20:03:31 <jcowan> Which facilities are you allowed to use? p5re's aren't really very "regular"
20:03:53 <sbp> the intersection of py and pl regexen
20:04:34 <libby> *** libby has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:04:43 <sbp> given that they have the ability to detect primes, you'd think it'd be possible
20:04:55 <jcowan> Primes in *decimal* notation?
20:05:14 <jcowan> I seem to recall a version that detects primes when 1 = 1, 11 = 2, 111 = 3, etc.
20:05:21 <sbp> right. the latter
20:05:30 <sbp> my sed replacement outline: http://infomesh.net/200X/ppr.py.txt
20:05:34 <jcowan> Slow as molasses in January, though.
20:05:51 <sbp> is the perl version of sre online yet?
20:06:15 <sbp> and yeah. possibly the least efficient implementation known to mankind...
20:06:45 <jcowan> (Is that expression current on your side of the Pond? I'd guess not, since you probably don't have molasses.)
20:07:15 <sbp> ain't no more cane on the Brazos
20:07:21 <sbp> we have it, from American folk songs :-)
20:07:26 <jcowan> Ho.
20:08:36 <sbp> more commonly treacle here, I think, though I'm not 100% sure that it's the same thing
20:08:42 <sbp> Treacle Tart is wonderful
20:08:50 <jcowan> .wn treacle
20:08:50 <phenny> jcowan: please use my .w function instead of .wn, as the output is truncated and less liable to cause flooding.
20:08:54 <jcowan> .w treacle
20:08:54 <phenny> treacle is defined as:-
20:08:55 <phenny> 1. a pale cane syrup
20:08:56 <phenny> 2. an expression that is excessively sweet and sentimental
20:09:01 <jcowan> .w molasses
20:09:02 <phenny> molasses is defined as:-
20:09:03 <phenny> 1. thick dark syrup produced by boiling down juice from sugar cane; especially during sugar refining
20:09:13 <jcowan> Not quite the same.
20:09:16 <sbp> I guessn't
20:09:43 <thelsdj> hmmmm i just found out today that the perl cgi module is actually pretty nice
20:10:09 <jcowan> It is indeed.
20:10:16 <thelsdj> took 15 minutes to create a fully functional http chat program so that my boss and i could communicate while he was on a really crappy wireless network that couldn't keep stateful connections
20:10:26 <sbp> yes. it has some good stuff in it if you want to write really short code :-)
20:10:27 <thelsdj> and that was my first lil cgi app in perl
20:10:32 <thelsdj> heh
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20:12:38 <jcowan> The Great Molasses Flood of 1919 (it really happened!): http://www.massretirees.com/members/molasses0104.html
20:12:39 <thelsdj> hmm i need a new hard drive, my 380 total gigs between 2 computers is nearly full
20:14:42 <sbp> 414:"The wave moved at an estimated 35 miles per hour" - who'd've thought it could be that fast?
20:15:33 <sbp> 414:"as recently as the 60s, the scent would float out, somewhat of a surprise to North End newcomers"
20:23:22 <sbp> I have an instruction manual here for my speakers
20:23:34 <sbp> and it's got, in huge font, the following translations for the word "or":
20:23:35 <sbp> < or ><ou >
20:23:35 <sbp> < o >< ? >
20:23:35 <sbp> < ou ><???>
20:23:35 <sbp> <oder><?? >
20:23:35 <sbp> < o ><???>
20:23:45 <sbp> each in a little black diamond shape
20:23:56 <sbp> German's the longest: efficiency my ass
20:24:04 <sbp> I think the languages are meant to be:
20:24:10 <sbp> English Spanish
20:24:16 <sbp> Portuguese Mandarin
20:24:24 <sbp> French Japanese
20:24:32 <sbp> German Korean
20:24:43 <sbp> Italian Tamil
20:25:05 <sbp> from snippets of other languages similarly translated
20:25:40 <sbp> I just thought it funny that they'd translate the word "or" into eight different languages in such a huge font, when really it's obvious from the diagrams anyway
20:26:11 <sbp> plus they left out geek. < || >
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20:30:20 <jcowan> I think you have Sp and Port swapped.
20:32:15 <sbp> most likely; pure guess!
20:32:37 <sbp> are there any good metrics from telling one from t'other, apart from just being familiar with them?
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20:33:27 <sbp> that could be the topic of one of kandinski's SNotD...
20:33:32 <jcowan> "ou" never occurs in Spanish is the obvious point. Also Spanish has ll; Portugese has lh, nh. Spanish has no nasal vowels; Pt has
20:33:46 <jcowan> I still think SNotD is a server you don't want to run.
20:34:10 <sbp> heh
20:34:16 <jcowan> In a game of D&D some 30 years back, my party once incautiously picked on a telephone on the first level of the dungeon.
20:34:29 <sbp> well the only diacritic in either is a couple of acute and grave accents
20:34:37 <jcowan> A voice answered "Balrog Central, where do you want the balrogs sent?"
20:35:21 <sbp> picked on a telephone?
20:36:06 <sbp> the two other phrases are: "Como conectar o sistema de alto-falantes a\ placa de som" and "Conexio/n del sistema de altavoces a la tarjeta de sonido"
20:36:12 <jcowan> s/picked on/picked up
20:36:21 <sbp> ahh. heh, heh
20:36:28 <jcowan> We ran like hell.
20:37:17 <jcowan> The first is Pt, the second Sp. Sp doesn't use grave accents.
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20:38:06 <jcowan> Additionally, f- went to h- (still written but not pronounced) in native Sp. words except before ue (e.g. fuego 'fire').
20:38:43 <jcowan> So hablar 'speak' is fablar in Portuguese; the learned Sp word "fabulare" is a borrowing from Latin that came after the change and wasn't affected by it.
20:39:37 <sbp> seems okay as a metric. n~/ll vs. lh/nh; no grave accents vs grave accents, f- vs h-, though with exceptions
20:40:54 <sbp> * sbp applies it to the talk on #rdfig at the moment, and comes up with Spanish
20:42:28 <jcowan> s/fabulare/fabular of course.
20:42:54 <jcowan> Also no ~-vowels vs. ~-vowels.
20:44:09 <sbp> Pt has no ~-vowels? sorry, I swapped my versuses around mid-way through
20:44:22 <jcowan> No, Sp has no ~.
20:44:38 <jcowan> Spanish does have but it's rare.
20:45:02 <jcowan> IRC should provide a way to join a channel read-only; no announcement, no ability to speak.
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20:50:33 <jcowan> I once tried to reformulate IRC so that servers wouldn't have to keep state, except for routing state, and if they lost that they could reacquire it from their neighbors in the mesh.
20:50:46 <jcowan> Everything else would be done with client-side state and hard-to-guess capabilities.
20:53:05 <crschmidt> *** crschmidt (~crschmidt@dslv-1-135.mv.com) has joined #swhack
20:53:05 <Monty> Hey crschmidt, xavier asked me to tell you: check this out for your menow bot: http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer [Wed Jun 09 17:01:45 BST 2004]
20:53:05 <jcowan> Capabilities are sooooo cool.
20:53:13 <phenny> heya crschmidt. this is a publicly logged channel: please don't say anything that'd destroy your potential future career in politics. more info at swhack.com
20:53:15 <crschmidt> Anyone here know who runs phenny?
20:56:26 <jsled> crschmidt: sbp does
20:56:51 <crschmidt> k.
21:00:11 <jcowan> I thought sbp might be maintaining a discreet silence, but his authorship *is* logged.
21:01:33 <jcowan> deltab: re: awk -- a good definition of compactness is at http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch04s02.html#compactness
21:01:53 <sbp> * sbp waves, drags datum out of #foaf
21:03:58 <thelsdj> i've been having fun with the evil awk lately
21:04:38 <thelsdj> little one line shell scripts that i barely can remember what they do 2 days after i wrote them heh
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21:07:07 <H0gan> Google.com, nice host.
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21:08:12 <NickServ> This nickname is owned by someone else
21:08:12 <NickServ> If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
21:08:16 <Monty> lo jillzilla
21:08:18 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's Jibbler!
21:08:19 <Monty> bah, it's Ash again
21:08:28 <evangineer_> *** evangineer_ has left #swhack
21:08:44 <H0gan> heh.
21:09:20 <jcowan> Like I said, stateless IRC would be a Good Thing.
21:45:49 <AaronSw> *** AaronSw (~Snak@c-24-13-224-74.client.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
21:45:54 <AaronSw> phenny, tell sbp that you can't use an indeterminite gender plural pronoun immediately after someone's name
21:45:55 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell sbp that when they're around.
21:49:32 <sbp> phenny: tell AaronSw that the pronoun is singular, but that the fact still stands and that I'm well aware with it. I dare him to phrase it better
21:49:32 <sbp> aware with? of
21:49:32 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell aaronsw that when they're around.
21:49:33 <phenny> sbp: AaronSw told me to tell you: that sbp can't use an indeterminite gender plural pronoun immediately after someone's name (at 2004-06-14 21:45:54.734107)
21:55:07 <sbp> phenny: yes he can!
21:55:16 <phenny> Oh okay then.
21:59:33 <d8uv> I've always read it as "They are"
22:00:01 <d8uv> "I'll tell sbp that when they are around"
22:00:31 <Ash> *** Ash has left #swhack
22:01:05 <crschmidt> which is still wrong. you're using a plural to describe something that's a singular. but there isn't a really good way to do it. "when he or she" might work better, but it's ugly
22:01:29 <crschmidt> it's one of the problems that has arisen since people got out of the habit of making all pronouns masculine - there's no good plural
22:01:54 <H0gan> *** H0gan has quit ("gUD lUcK")
22:09:38 <jcowan> Anyone know how to shut down Plan 9?
22:11:56 <jcowan> I have RTFFAQ, but it lies.
22:14:27 <Morbus> *** Morbus (~morbus@pool-70-16-198-239.man.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
22:15:31 <deltab> run fshalt, then switch off -- http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Installation_instructions/index.html
22:16:13 <thelsdj> glanced at the front of new 'science news' magazine and thought it said: "Planetary youngster found harnessing spinache for power roping carbon nanotubes" but that was 3 different headings :\
22:19:53 <deltab> jcowan: how so?
22:24:59 <sbp> crschmidt: no, it is singular. http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html#X1a
22:25:32 <sbp> but it's inelegant when used after someone's name, as Aaron notes
22:25:34 <tav> * tav waves
22:26:22 <tav> Morbus: could you do me a favour?
22:26:37 <Morbus> it depends on the favor.
22:26:49 <tav> give coverage to 24hdc.com
22:27:11 <tav> i'm gonna pitch the plex, etc. as part of the way forward
22:27:52 <Morbus> i dunno.
22:28:27 <jcowan> deltab: no fshalt command on the system -- that FAQ is a hangover from some older version.
22:28:37 <deltab> ah
22:29:05 <jcowan> I ended up powering off, and if it fscks me on the next boot, then so it goes.
22:30:06 <jcowan> proposed topic: what is the essence of a shell? What must a shell be able to do to be a shell?
22:30:43 <jcowan> My list so far: variable substitution, quoting, globbing, pipelines, &, exec, simple redirections
22:31:21 <jcowan> (I know about execline now, and while it's interesting, IMHO it is *too* minimalistic.
22:31:50 <deltab> only if you expect it to be a shell, which of course it isn't
22:32:36 <jcowan> I just wanted to fend off the answer "Whatever execline does".
22:32:59 <deltab> a shell wraps some kind of kernel functionality, and provides a user interfaces to it
22:34:08 <jcowan> So does perl. perl's not a shell.
22:34:11 <deltab> in the case of an OS, the kernel provides execution of programs and manipulation of files
22:34:42 <jcowan> Oh, you're using "kernel" in a generalized way.
22:34:47 <deltab> yes
22:34:55 <deltab> and 'shell'
22:35:05 <jcowan> I was using "shell" in a more narrow way.
22:35:15 <deltab> ah, okay
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22:36:44 <jcowan> backticks seem like a Good Thing, but hard to generalize on. rc gives us <{...} and >{...} for tree-structured pipelines.
22:37:25 <deltab> you need to be able to name them, I reckon
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22:53:33 <sbp> word of the day: deliquesce
22:53:36 <sbp> .w deliquesce
22:53:36 <phenny> deliquesce is defined as:-
22:53:37 <phenny> 1. melt away in the process of decay; "The fungi eventually deliquesced"
22:53:39 <phenny> 2. melt or become liquid by absorbig moisture from the air; "this type of salt deliquesces easily"
23:03:10 <redmonk> * redmonk had an idea
23:03:17 <redmonk> is there a decent free windows irc client?
23:05:00 <redmonk> * redmonk downloads mirc
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23:12:23 <monk> this is a test
23:12:49 <crschmidt> of the emergency broadcast system?
23:12:49 <monk> cool. now i can leave this beeatch online overnight and do some serious idling
23:12:53 <monk> lol
23:12:56 <monk> nah
23:13:11 <sbp> idling: heh!
23:14:35 <monk> i'm getting creamed in idlerpg cuase i'm on a laptop and i'm always dropping off
23:14:48 <monk> but i have an unused pc here in the office
23:15:06 <redmonk> * redmonk peers at monk
23:16:47 <monk> *** monk has quit ()
23:18:03 <redmonk> hrm
23:18:16 <redmonk> *** redmonk has quit ("Quitting")
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23:19:52 <redmonk> 'lo
23:22:18 <kandinski> re
23:22:31 <kandinski> not long till bedtime!
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