2004-12-22 Swhack IRC Log

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00:11:33 <eaon> * eaon prods Monty
00:11:33 <Monty> that i linked and html to /dev/random.
00:11:57 <Arnia> Monty, you becoming the BOFH?
00:11:58 <Monty> especially in estonia was dumb
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00:22:38 <eaon> Monty: please cut an opera into lots of 0.5 seconds pieces and randomly put it together
00:22:41 <Monty> (Since I can't view, and since the country
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05:58:33 <sbp> whee, DrBacchus got slashdotted
05:58:51 <sbp> http://apache.slashdot.org/apache/04/12/21/1837209.shtml?tid=169&tid=2
06:05:32 <Ash> I was just going to say
06:05:43 <Ash> WHY ARE YOU GIVING US YOUR APACHE2 FUD DRBACCHUS
06:06:11 <Ash> STOP BADGERING ME, I LOVE MY APACHE 1.08
06:22:02 <sbp> heh, heh
06:23:18 <sbp> oh man: http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/calendar.html
06:24:24 <Ash> KABOOM
06:25:33 <d8uv> * d8uv explodes
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07:26:33 <candyman> hi all
07:26:39 <d8uv> Hi!
07:26:50 <candyman> * candyman explodes d8uv
07:27:03 <d8uv> OMG MAEN
08:01:08 <candyman> hi again
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08:54:16 <candyman> this on Slashdot today: http://www.pacifict.com/Story/
08:54:27 <candyman> you got to read it, I am still laughing
08:54:38 <candyman> it is too good to be true, but it seems it is true
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09:09:37 <xover> candyman: That's possibly the coolest story I've ever read! swhacker it?
09:09:57 <candyman> yep, definitely
09:10:06 <candyman> I don't know which quote to pull
09:10:16 <candyman> the final one "greg does not bet against me any more"
09:10:48 <candyman> or "it is hard to enforce that kind of thing with people that can't be fired"
09:11:33 <xover> The Graphing Calculator Story (How “Graphing Calculator” Got Included in Mac OS); <URL>
09:11:40 <xover> ...would be a good start. :-)
09:12:42 <candyman> "We were hackers, creating something for the sheer joy of making it work (Sneaking into Apple to work for them, unpaid, for the heck of it): http://www.pacifict.com/Story/
09:12:43 <swhacker> posted 675
09:12:47 <candyman> I think this does it
09:12:55 <candyman> damn, I missed a quote
09:13:03 <candyman> ok, this can be fixed, I am sure
09:13:23 <candyman> la la la
09:13:31 <xover> nnn:| New Title (i think)
09:13:55 <candyman> 675:| "We were hackers, creating something for the sheer joy of making it work"
09:14:08 <candyman> er...
09:14:11 <candyman> neer mind
09:14:17 <candyman> errors are good
09:14:24 <candyman> they remind us we are human
09:14:28 <xover> And set the excerpt with: nnn::Long string of text to use as the excerpt of the story; a blockquote-ish kind of thing...
09:14:39 <candyman> I just farted too, for good measure
09:14:41 <xover> * xover has to leave for work...
09:14:48 <candyman> you use OSX?
09:14:53 <xover> Yep.
09:14:57 <candyman> play with graphing calculator for me today
09:15:06 <xover> Heh. Will do! :-)
09:16:07 <candyman> 675:: "
09:16:11 <candyman> great
09:16:16 <candyman> that does it
09:16:23 <candyman> * candyman explodes for the rest of the day
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10:01:02 <Monty> yo JibberJim!
10:06:46 <md-afk_> *** md-afk_ is now known as Phurl
10:20:35 <eaon> [[[
10:20:38 <eaon> Become a legally ordained minister within 48 hours
10:20:38 <eaon> As a minister, you will be authorized to perform the rites and ceremonies of the church!
10:20:38 <eaon> Perform Weddings, Funerals, Perform Baptisms, Forgiveness of Sins
10:20:38 <eaon> Visit Correctional Facilities
10:20:41 <eaon> ]]]
10:20:47 <eaon> hmm.
10:24:22 <candyman> well, I have visited Correctional Facilities without ordaining myself
10:24:24 <candyman> I WIN!
10:30:44 <Phurl> >)
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11:01:04 <deltab> candyman: yes, but by participating in a scam, you may (eventually) get much greater access :-)
11:02:20 <candyman> deltab, right about that too
11:02:40 <candyman> well, let's put it this way: I got out that time. So I won.
11:03:10 <candyman> (my sister is a social worker. My dad used to tell people who called on the phone: "she can't come to the phone. She is in Jail")
11:04:11 <candyman> (in Spanish, "in Jail" and "at the Jail" are only distinguishable through context, or through informal user: they are literally indistinguishable in formal talk)
11:04:18 <candyman> (that was your SNotD)
11:04:32 <candyman> (ah, it is "Está en la carcel")
11:09:02 <kpreid> what's the informal distinction?
11:24:46 <candyman> you would say "está en chirona"
11:24:52 <candyman> "or está en la trena"
11:25:04 <candyman> both meain "in jail", not "at the jail"
11:25:27 <candyman> you also would use "she went to jail" to mean as in English
11:25:39 <candyman> but "she had to go to the jail" to mean as in English
11:25:45 <candyman> differences in usage, mostly
11:26:02 <candyman> chirona, trena: slammer, the joint
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12:58:32 <Monty> howdy, sal
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13:41:05 <sbp> bienvenue a Swhack, donfu
13:41:25 <sbp> this is a publically logged channel, so be careful not to say anything that'd destroy your future potential political career
13:41:43 <sbp> more information at swhack.com
13:43:37 <Talliesin> Heh: "We wanted to release a Windows version as part of Windows 98, but sadly, Microsoft has effective building security.
13:43:37 <Talliesin> "
13:44:20 <sbp> yeah, it's a good last paragraph
13:44:23 <crschmidt> sbp!
13:44:27 <crschmidt> I could have used help last night
13:44:32 <crschmidt> you abandoned me in my time of need
13:44:46 <candyman> hey
13:44:48 <sbp> reminds me of Zinsser's advice
13:44:53 <sbp> hi crschmidt, candyman
13:45:01 <crschmidt> I learned that I had no fucking clue what rdf:parseType="Resource" did, but I think I do now, so I suppose that's good
13:45:17 <candyman> the guy can write. He has a good story, but he is also a hell of a racconteur.
13:45:22 <candyman> every paragraph has a gem
13:45:34 <sbp> crschmidt: ah. it's just a short hand way of writing <rdf:Description> inside the property element
13:45:39 <crschmidt> Yeah
13:45:50 <crschmidt> I learned that ;)
13:45:53 <sbp> heh, sorry
13:46:06 <crschmidt> Not your fault, it was actually a pretty good learning experience
13:46:18 <sbp> it's a dezebraisation mechanism too
13:47:42 <crschmidt> .w dezebrai... oh
13:47:44 <crschmidt> striping
13:47:46 <crschmidt> got it.
13:47:48 <phenny> I couldn't find dezebrai... oh in WordNet.
13:48:00 <candyman> now that was funny
13:49:11 <crschmidt> http://bash.org/?425480 <- I'm amused that both the "intelligent" and "not-intelligent" people in that conversation do not understand how to use "You're". And, naturally, this sentence will have at least one grammatical error.
13:50:01 <sbp> hmm. I'd prefer "non-intelligent", but that's about it
13:50:11 <sbp> or unintelligent
13:50:25 <deltab> crschmidt: You are mistaken: the error count is zero.
13:50:40 <crschmidt> but... but... it's some unwritten law.
13:50:59 <deltab> so there is a mistake in your sentence
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13:51:18 <crschmidt> Any correction of grammar must contain at least one grammatical error. It's like the spelling rule: Anytime you correct spelling, you will make a spelling mistake yourself.
13:52:07 <sbp> it's okay crschmidt, he's gone now
13:52:45 <crschmidt> Yeah, yeah, but i already had most of it typed
13:53:29 <jetscreamer> yes that is a rule that applies to mundane ppl. luckily i'm not affected.
13:54:14 <sbp> mischan?
13:55:21 <crschmidt> I don't think so. Probably replying to my statement on the unwritten laws of grammar and spelling
13:56:01 <candyman> not unwritten, at least not anymore
13:56:03 <jetscreamer> ah so mischan is another way to say 'ooops wrong channel'. no, no mischan.
13:56:09 <candyman> logg: pointer
13:56:17 <candyman> loggy: pointer
13:56:17 <candyman> See http://swhack.com/logs/2004-12-22#T13-56-17
13:57:20 <crschmidt> yes, but me writing something doesn't count
13:58:52 <Talliesin> Most unwritten laws are written somewhere.
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14:03:08 <crschmidt> * crschmidt sends the python interperter to his phone
14:03:41 <sbp> URI?
14:03:48 <sbp> .google mobile Python
14:04:00 <sbp> that was odd
14:04:03 <sbp> .g mobile Python
14:04:05 <phenny> mobile Python: http://www.monkeyhouse.eclipse.co.uk/mobile/python.htm
14:04:28 <jetscreamer> i'm a home experiment in sleep deprivation, sometimes you have to forgive me... cya.
14:04:50 <sbp> c'ya
14:05:43 <crschmidt> http://www.forum.nokia.com/main/0,,034-821,00.html
14:06:00 <crschmidt> heh
14:06:05 <crschmidt> import sys caused it to crash...
14:07:45 <crschmidt> possibly due to low memory
14:09:14 <crschmidt> will have to get a memory card for my phone sometime soon, i suppose
14:09:44 <sbp> import sys crashed it? heh!
14:09:52 <sbp> >>> True
14:10:03 <sbp> BlamError: Just decided to completely fuck up.
14:10:06 <crschmidt> I'm pretty sure it's memory related
14:10:23 <crschmidt> first, i did "import os" which worked, then "import sys", and it crashed
14:10:32 <crschmidt> then, i just did import sys, and it crashed
14:10:37 <crschmidt> then, i just did import os, and it crashed :)
14:10:40 <crschmidt> * crschmidt is seeing a pattern
14:10:57 <crschmidt> the interpreter is about 1mb, so it probably takes up more than 645k of memory when things start happening
14:12:24 <sbp> so what if you want to use something really complex like re? :-)
14:12:33 <crschmidt> I told you, I need a memory card :)
14:12:43 <crschmidt> I lost mine more than a year ago during a repair incident
14:12:53 <crschmidt> does os have anything interesting i can print?
14:14:12 <crschmidt> os.name is "e32"
14:17:22 <crschmidt> hm.
14:18:08 <sbp> no humming
14:18:12 <crschmidt> I don't know how to use re, apparently
14:18:15 <sbp> unless you're a hummingbird
14:18:16 <crschmidt> it does import correctly though
14:18:51 <crschmidt> i have a string, foo = "foobar"
14:19:01 <crschmidt> and i tried: print re.match(foo, ".*bar")
14:19:08 <crschmidt> which apparently doesn't print anything?
14:19:13 <sbp> >>> import re
14:19:13 <sbp> >>> r_vowels = re.compile('[aeiou]+')
14:19:13 <sbp> >>> r_vowels.findall('There are vowels in this and suchlike.')
14:19:13 <sbp> ['e', 'e', 'a', 'e', 'o', 'e', 'i', 'i', 'a', 'u', 'i', 'e']
14:19:13 <sbp> >>>
14:19:25 <sbp> heh, wrong way around
14:19:26 <crschmidt> that's kinda hard to type on a phone keyboard
14:20:06 <sbp> >>> r_bar = re.compile('.*bar')
14:20:06 <sbp> >>> m = r_bar.match('foobar')
14:20:06 <sbp> >>> print m.group(0)
14:20:06 <sbp> foobar
14:20:06 <sbp> >>>
14:20:52 <sbp> what's the point of having a scripting language on a 'phone when it's difficult to type? :-)
14:21:12 <crschmidt> you can send files
14:21:13 <crschmidt> and execute them
14:21:30 <sbp> poor files
14:21:41 <crschmidt> ooh, it worked!
14:21:50 <sbp> paste?
14:21:55 <crschmidt> paste?
14:22:10 <sbp> paste the results
14:22:13 <crschmidt> it's on the phone :p
14:22:26 <deusx> Writing lisp on a treo 300 is teh fun
14:22:30 <sbp> this is totally no good
14:22:41 <crschmidt> hold on, i'll hop on irc from the phone
14:22:53 <crschmidt> maybe
14:22:59 <crschmidt> my memory limitations are causing problems, i think.
14:23:09 <sbp> actually, I tried to paste something into a piece of paper today. that was a bit sad. well, I copied it, then turned to the paper and thought "now what? eek"
14:23:50 <crschmidt> anyway, apparently there is some urllib implementation, just being able to connect and do things online without having to learn java would kick ass
14:24:19 <sbp> very much so
14:24:21 <chrisMobile> *** chrisMobile (~chrisMobi@m09105e42.tmodns.net) has joined #swhack
14:24:21 <Monty> it's chrisMobile!
14:24:31 <chrisMobile> >>> re.match(foo, ".*bar")
14:24:31 <chrisMobile> re.match(foo, ".*bar")
14:24:58 <sbp> whoo
14:25:01 <crschmidt> obviously, my failed attempts are in there too
14:25:21 <crschmidt> however, i think on os x, print re.match(foo, ".*bar") returns "None"
14:25:25 <crschmidt> which it apparently doesn't on the phone
14:25:43 <sbp> no, that's right
14:25:50 <sbp> None just gets skipped
14:25:54 <crschmidt> ah
14:26:08 <crschmidt> Anyway, i can't run irc and python at the same time, not enough memory
14:26:43 <crschmidt> ah, i can, at least a bit
14:27:33 <crschmidt> Probabyl can't with the re module :)
14:29:11 <sbp> hmm! loggy didn't log that line
14:29:18 <sbp> not any of your chrisMobile lines
14:29:50 <crschmidt> they have returns in them
14:29:55 <crschmidt> probably messing with his head
14:29:59 <sbp> and when I paste it into the terminal it goes YEAH, ER, OKAY. BLAM
14:30:05 <chrisMobile> Does he log this line?
14:30:06 <sbp> ah, CR?
14:30:09 <crschmidt> 09:27:30 < chrisMobile> >>> print "foo"Afoo
14:30:13 <crschmidt> the A is inverted
14:30:22 <crschmidt> i have no clue, i'm just copy pasting on the phone :p
14:30:45 <sbp> ah
14:31:17 <sbp> not sure why it's pasting U+0001 (START OF HEADING)
14:32:38 <crschmidt> dude.
14:32:42 <crschmidt> i have an rss reader on my phone now.
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14:33:13 <sbp> woah. I'd find that amazing if I even used one :-)
14:33:21 <crschmidt> i don't use one either
14:33:25 <sbp> heh, heh
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14:33:32 <sbp> don't dude me then!
14:33:44 <sbp> reserve your duding for the truly amazing
14:33:53 <sbp> or whatever
14:34:07 <crschmidt> and it updates via bluetooth
14:35:10 <crschmidt> yeah, definitely need a new memory card
14:35:21 <crschmidt> got a KErrMemory when trying to import a sockets lib
14:35:49 <sbp> 'phones are too clever these days
14:36:15 <sbp> I don't want to be a luddite about it, but I think they're wrong
14:37:18 <crschmidt> almost all geeks are completely obsessed with their phones, or think they're the work of the devil, it seems
14:38:08 <sbp> right. either you're stupid, or you're not
14:39:08 <sbp> though it's funny--I've seen some very mobile-critical people eventually give in and get mobiles
14:39:27 <crschmidt> In my experience, they usually like them after that, because they're fun toys
14:40:02 <sbp> yeah maybe, but if you want something entirely useless but geekily fun, why not go for a GPS unit?
14:40:19 <crschmidt> more expensive
14:40:20 <sbp> that I can understand. it doesn't go off every five minutes demanding attention
14:40:27 <sbp> barely
14:40:29 <crschmidt> pfft, my phone doesn't go off
14:40:34 <crschmidt> my phone was free.
14:40:37 <sbp> then why do you have it?
14:40:38 <crschmidt> a gps costs 250 bucks
14:40:43 <crschmidt> for irc+internet
14:40:49 <sbp> ah. what about line rentally stuff?
14:41:04 <crschmidt> It was worth it for a long time, i was calling jess for an hour a night
14:41:06 <Talliesin> Nothing wrong with Luddites.
14:41:39 <crschmidt> the long distance bills, even with phone cards, would have been horrible, plus cell phones don't have the interference that 2.4ghz phones do
14:41:41 <sbp> there is if they oppose the electric guitar
14:42:59 <Talliesin> Luddites weren't anti-tech, they were anti-tech-fucking-stuff-up. Nerds often have strong Luddite tendencies, due to their being more aware of how it can fuck up.
14:43:23 <sbp> ah
14:43:42 <sbp> though I think they're one and the same thing...
14:43:47 <deusx> You're a Luddite, aren't you? I'm going to report you.
14:44:00 <sbp> to whom? your precious computer overlord?
14:44:11 <sbp> (yo deusx!)
14:44:15 <deusx> Er, um.. to someone. In AUTHORITY
14:44:20 <deusx> Hello there :)
14:44:56 <sbp> <deusx> yes Mister President. this is a concerned citizen. someone in a foreign country is being a Luddite!
14:45:12 <deusx> seal the borders!
14:45:12 <Talliesin> They're was a priest once that wanted to do that (report on the Luddites). In the tradition of those whose job it was to minister to the oppressed Catholics of Yorkshire, Ireland and Scotland he sold them out at every available opportunity.
14:45:14 <Talliesin> Anyway,
14:45:20 <sbp> <Newsman> The president today announced that he has certain evidence that Britian is harbouring weapons of mass destruction.
14:45:43 <sbp> <Newsman> also, because I am American I cannot spell "Britian"
14:45:44 <Talliesin> He attended the death bed of a know Luddite to perform the last rites, and was trying to persuade the man to inform.
14:46:17 <Talliesin> Eventually the man asked "Father, can you keep a secret?". The priest said he could and the man replied "so can I" and died.
14:46:28 <Talliesin> (Almost definitely untrue, but I like that story).
14:46:29 <sbp> heh, I've heard that somewhere
14:46:34 <sbp> ah, probably from you
14:46:36 <Talliesin> Probably me.
14:46:39 <Talliesin> heh
14:46:43 <sbp> :-)
14:47:34 <Talliesin> Indeed I'd say it's unlikely that I haven't recounted that tale here at least once or twice.
14:48:11 <sbp> <Newsman> When it was pointed out to the president that it is illogical for a nation habouring weapons of mass destruction to also be Ludditical, the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld stated "I will direct in future that the president make sense".
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14:48:59 <Monty> bah, it's redmonk again
14:49:18 <redmonk> swhack!
14:49:27 <deusx> monty: You're my hero
14:49:29 <Monty> A thought: horoscopes is tooltipped!
14:49:35 <redmonk> today's the day! release party for the beta of our new app!
14:49:39 <redmonk> hiya deltab
14:49:43 <redmonk> and deusx
14:49:58 <redmonk> (stupid tab-complete got ahead of me)
14:52:26 <crschmidt> so, with python on my phone now... oh, the possibliites
14:52:42 <crschmidt> I now have example code for dealing with bluetooth
14:57:39 <candyman> crschmidt: is it a 6600?
14:57:42 <crschmidt> 3650
14:57:48 <crschmidt> I'm old school
14:57:53 <candyman> you are
14:57:53 <crschmidt> One of the first Series 60 phones
14:58:01 <candyman> 6600's are starting to get cheap here
14:58:12 <crschmidt> I could get one for free with a new plan, i think
14:58:16 <candyman> I am thinking of one, or of an old n-gage
14:58:21 <crschmidt> but i think I'm still under contract
15:12:12 <crschmidt> sbp: how hard would it be to write an ntriples parser in python? a single-file module kind of thing
15:12:43 <crschmidt> (I'm assuming there is already one or 6 out there, built into various projects)
15:19:12 <crschmidt> sbp: in case you're interested, http://crschmidt.net/tmp/API_Reference_for_Python_1_0.pdf is the API guide given with the code
15:19:12 <Arnia> *** Arnia (~jgeldart@host81-156-176-69.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #swhack
15:30:04 <sbp> crschmidt: http://inamidst.com/proj/rdf/ntriples.py
15:30:12 <sbp> highly spec compliant, and toolkit independent
15:30:17 <sbp> and thanks for the API guide
15:31:17 <crschmidt> most interesting to me is the fact that they created their own native sql store
15:32:10 <Arnia> I sometimes wonder why I spent over a year working on Plone
15:32:27 <Arnia> [[[
15:32:29 <Arnia> Perhaps time to try out Plone for real. There is apparently a 100% CSS Plone template available now, allowing you to redesign the layout of your site without having to hack up the templates, which would be nice. My main complaint with Plone is that it always looks like Plone (same with things like Postnuke). It's also important however to make it not look like sh*t.
15:32:40 <Arnia> ]]] -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/davyd/
15:32:47 <Morbus> *** Morbus (~morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
15:33:07 <Arnia> Yes... eaon, sh1mmer and I *wrote* that template a year ago
15:33:16 <Arnia> It's been in Plone since then :p
15:33:21 <Arnia> * Arnia grumbles
15:33:27 <crschmidt> Don't let livejournal users get you down.
15:33:29 <crschmidt> They suck ass.
15:33:39 <Arnia> And www.netalleynetworks.com is standard Plone with a new CSS
15:33:47 <Arnia> crschmidt: He's on Planet Gnome though
15:33:54 <Arnia> And I usually agree with him
15:33:59 <crschmidt> He's still a livejournal user.
15:34:28 <schepers> y'all know Geoff Davis?
15:34:33 <Arnia> Yes
15:34:50 <Arnia> I just feel my work is being rubbished sometimes... as if all that effort was for nothing
15:35:13 <schepers> he's a good guy... he's in my local group of friends, though he and I don't hang out
15:35:15 <sbp> welcome to the club
15:35:29 <Morbus> THE CLUB SANDWICH
15:35:31 <Morbus> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
15:35:36 <sbp> Morbus!
15:35:40 <Morbus> where?!
15:35:44 <Morbus> * Morbus turns to and dro.
15:35:45 <Arnia> I know *sighs* sorry
15:35:46 <schepers> right there
15:35:48 <sbp> behind you!
15:35:51 <Morbus> eep!
15:35:53 <Morbus> * Morbus jumps.
15:35:57 <sbp> two Morbuses in the same room. that'd be great
15:35:59 <Morbus> hey, did you ever look at those PDFs, or go to the store?
15:36:06 <sbp> I wonder how long before sex would occur?
15:36:07 <crschmidt> Arnia: don't feel bad, I feel the same way lots of times
15:36:09 <sbp> those PDFs?
15:36:16 <Arnia> schepers: I know he's a good guy.
15:36:37 <crschmidt> LJ work is almost a complete waste of 1.5 years of work
15:36:47 <schepers> I'm sure you know him better than I do, Arnia
15:37:27 <Arnia> schepers: I don't doubt that. But he was never an issue.
15:37:58 <crschmidt> sbp: __main__.ParseError: Failed to eat <_sre.SRE_Pattern object at 0x2b3a0>
15:38:11 <sbp> ooh, awesome
15:38:12 <crschmidt> on http://crschmidt.net/foaf.ntriples
15:38:13 <sbp> what's the input?
15:38:42 <sbp> getting into repres...
15:38:47 <schepers> oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't commenting on the Plone project or any people in it... I just noticed you talking about it, and he's they guy I know doing Plone
15:39:04 <schepers> I wasn't implying you were implying anything
15:39:40 <Morbus> * Morbus runs off crying.
15:40:10 <Arnia> * Arnia hands Morbus a small seagull called Jill
15:40:45 <Morbus> * Morbus aims ass at sbp.
15:40:46 <Morbus> FIRE!
15:40:50 <Morbus> *splutch*
15:40:51 <bancus> *** bancus (~treed@24-53-63-152.ontrca.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
15:41:18 <sbp> crschmidt: '<mailto: steve@staticfree.info>'
15:41:20 <sbp> not a valid URI
15:41:27 <crschmidt> ah
15:41:28 <sbp> sorry for the crap debug message. I should fix that
15:41:30 <crschmidt> thanks
15:41:35 <crschmidt> yeah, it's an @@
15:41:36 <sbp> * sbp respawns
15:43:37 <crschmidt> sbp: so, to parse a string: parser=NtriplesParser(); sink = parser.parsestring("ntripleshere"); for triple in sink: print triple ?
15:46:51 <crschmidt> if not isinstance(s, basestr):
15:46:51 <crschmidt> NameError: global name 'basestr' is not defined
15:47:23 <d8uv> *** d8uv has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:49:30 <Morbus> sbp, pdf.
15:54:02 <Arnia> Can we make 'pdf' a swear word?
15:54:27 <Morbus> only if you're on windows.
15:54:32 <Morbus> every other OS works with them quite nicely.
15:54:34 <Arnia> Not because I have anything against Adobe or the PDF format... just because it sounds like it *should* be
15:54:51 <Arnia> I have problems with them on Linux sometimes
15:54:59 <Morbus> hey, did you know that OOo can export ppt files as Flash? that's amazing.
15:55:08 <Morbus> and the new 2.0 betas are out, and they include an Access clone called Base.
15:55:12 <Morbus> coolio!
15:55:20 <crschmidt> the pdf reader i have on linux sucks balls
15:55:48 <Morbus> i just use ggv or kpdf.
15:55:53 <Arnia> I use a combination of gpdf, ggv and acroread (as a last resort)
15:55:55 <Morbus> i only read pdfs. i don't print, annotate, or whatever.
15:56:09 <crschmidt> I use gv
15:56:12 <crschmidt> it's ugly.
15:56:15 <Morbus> yeah.
15:56:25 <Arnia> gv or ggv?
15:56:34 <Arnia> gv would be ugly...
15:56:38 <Arnia> So's acroread
15:56:56 <crschmidt> gv
15:57:01 <crschmidt> Never heard of ggv
15:57:24 <Arnia> I sometimes print, but I also use latex-beamer to do presentations... which means I need a reader for PDF 1.3 (which means acroread)
15:58:40 <sbp> crschmidt: you can probably just comment that line out. I forget when basestr was added, but you've obviously got an earlier verson or I've typoed it
15:58:57 <crschmidt> yeah, I commented it out
15:59:03 <sbp> cool
15:59:06 <Morbus> *** Morbus has changed the topic to: <Morbus> I officially hate sbp now. Let's see if I can break my "not gonna talk to you!" record.
15:59:08 <sbp> Morbus: what URI for the PDF?
15:59:14 <sbp> heh, heh
15:59:16 <crschmidt> still having problems
15:59:27 <crschmidt> but not sure why
15:59:28 <sbp> what does it stand at? three seconds? you've already broken it
15:59:35 <sbp> crschmidt: what error message?
15:59:42 <crschmidt> No error message, the sink is just empty
16:00:04 <sbp> oh, yes
16:00:09 <sbp> you have to override the sink
16:00:27 <sbp> don't use the built-in one, for goodness' sake
16:00:38 <sbp> * sbp takes down notes of stuff that he really has to improve
16:00:41 <JibberJim> what's wrong with built in sinks?
16:00:54 <sbp> they're usually not as good as custom ones
16:00:56 <JibberJim> I find they're much less likely to leak.
16:01:07 <sbp> it's garbage collected
16:01:13 <crschmidt> ah
16:01:33 <JibberJim> Oh and the built in one doesn't come with a garbage disposal unit?
16:02:35 <crschmidt> bleh
16:02:39 <crschmidt> i don't know how this stuff works :p
16:03:37 <JibberJim> so sbp, does your python rdf parser work on symbian 60 python?
16:03:46 <crschmidt> JibberJim: that's what i'm working on making it do
16:03:54 <bjoern_> *** bjoern_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:04:50 <JibberJim> oh, what graphics drawing capability does it have? can I have it talk to my SVG renderer on my 3650?
16:07:13 <crschmidt> *** crschmidt has quit ("Lost terminal")
16:08:14 <crschmidt> *** crschmidt (~crschmidt@dsl.allan.MV.COM) has joined #swhack
16:08:17 <sbp> crschmidt: [[[
16:08:18 <sbp> import ntriples
16:08:18 <sbp> ntriples.URI = str
16:08:18 <sbp> ntriples.bNode = str
16:08:18 <sbp> ntriples.Literal = str
16:08:22 <sbp> class Sink:
16:08:22 <sbp> def triple(self, s, p, o): print s
16:08:22 <sbp> parser = ntriples.NTriplesParser(Sink())
16:08:24 <sbp> [&c.]
16:08:26 <sbp> ]]]
16:08:31 <crschmidt> yeah
16:08:32 <sbp> that'd print out all the subjects, for example
16:08:54 <crschmidt> I've got it now: I was having some problems defining a class for some reason
16:10:05 <sbp> ah
16:10:07 <Morbus> hey chris, you know what sucks?
16:10:11 <crschmidt> nope
16:10:12 <Morbus> what really really sucks?
16:10:15 <Morbus> wanna know, wanna know?
16:10:23 <crschmidt> Sure!
16:10:39 <Morbus> when you give someone some pdfs to take a look at, cos you know, you love them, and two weeks later, they have the audacity to sya "what's the URI again?" <G>
16:12:05 <crschmidt> Morbus: oh, that's right. What's that URI again?
16:12:16 <Morbus> its too late! i already took them down.
16:12:30 <Morbus> i thought, you know, after downloading a 50 meg PDF, it'd be a good idea to keep it around instead of merely humoring me.
16:12:44 <sbp> ohh. I remember now
16:12:54 <sbp> I looked at the little one; not the big one
16:13:30 <sbp> I clearly can't remember a month ago--I had the same problem with tav's design document. "what did you think of it?" "did you show me it?" "pretty sure I did..."
16:13:35 <sbp> that's what I had to use slogger on
16:15:32 <crschmidt> woot
16:15:37 <crschmidt> i now have an ntriples parser on my phone
16:15:43 <sbp> heh, heh
16:15:46 <eaon> hehe
16:15:51 <sbp> you heard it here first, folks
16:16:02 <eaon> you gotta blog it
16:16:09 <crschmidt> i will, i will
16:16:39 <Arnia> crschmidt: What's your phone?
16:16:49 <crschmidt> nokia 3650
16:16:58 <redmonk> can you serve foaf from your phone now? ;)
16:17:22 <crschmidt> Nah, the network is pretty restrictive
16:17:25 <crschmidt> but...
16:17:29 <crschmidt> the possibilities are growing
16:17:36 <JibberJim> bluetooth!
16:17:39 <crschmidt> yep
16:17:46 <crschmidt> There's example bluetooth code already
16:17:51 <crschmidt> first i'm going to just give urllib a try
16:19:56 <redmonk> it would be cool if your phone could use a contact number to look up other info from a person's foaf
16:21:13 <eaon> * eaon considers stealing a friends phone
16:21:17 <eaon> +now
16:22:19 <redmonk> or if your phone could use BT to get foaf from other phones in the area
16:22:31 <redmonk> you'd ahve to have a way to mark sections of your foaf as public/private
16:22:34 <crschmidt> bah
16:22:41 <crschmidt> import urllib returns memoryerror
16:22:46 <redmonk> humbug
16:22:51 <redmonk> er, phonebug
16:22:53 <redmonk> hahahaha
16:23:26 <Arnia> redmonk: I'm working on an ontology for information permissions based upon CBDs
16:23:36 <Arnia> This is as part of Frege
16:24:19 <crschmidt> * crschmidt reboots his phone
16:26:32 <crschmidt> m41105e42.tmodns.net - - [22/Dec/2004:11:25:59 -0500] "GET /foaf.ntriples HTTP/1.0" 200 77090 "-" "Python-urllib/1.15"
16:26:51 <crschmidt> it worked!
16:27:14 <Arnia> crschmidt: Would you be able to use HTTP PUT or POST to send information upstream?
16:27:23 <crschmidt> can you do it with urllib?
16:28:39 <Arnia> Yes... you can
16:28:47 <crschmidt> Then yes :)
16:28:52 <crschmidt> It's a full python implementation
16:29:38 <Arnia> ooh
16:30:02 <Arnia> Get it talking to Julie for menow status info
16:30:29 <redmonk> Arnia: what is CBDs?
16:31:14 <eaon> is it my brain or is this right: menow queries would need to be hardcoded into julie
16:31:29 <crschmidt> That's probably correct.
16:31:33 <crschmidt> You could ask questions
16:31:38 <crschmidt> but not very meaningful ones
16:31:45 <Arnia> Concise Bounded Descriptions -- http://www.w3.org/Submission/2004/SUBM-CBD-20040930/
16:32:08 <crschmidt> ^q select ?listening where (?p foaf:nick "crschmidt") (?p menow:hasStatus ?status) (?status menow:listeningTo ?listening)
16:32:10 <julie> Dave Matthews Band - Crash Into Me, Dave Matthews Band - Jimi Thing, Dave Matthews Band - #41, Dave Matthews Band - The Stone, Dave Matthews Band - Intro to Listener Supported, Dave Matthews Band - Rapunzel, Dave Matthews Band - Rhyme And Reason
16:32:25 <Arnia> Need a way to submit retractions
16:32:27 <Arnia> RDF Diff?
16:32:37 <crschmidt> Or to simply sort the data.
16:32:48 <Arnia> Or a decent event model
16:32:52 <crschmidt> ^q select ?listening ?date where (?p foaf:nick "crschmidt") (?p menow:hasStatus ?status) (?status menow:listeningTo ?listening) (?status dc:date ?date)
16:32:53 <julie> 2004-11-21T22:27:50EST Dave Matthews Band - Crash Into Me, 2004-11-21T22:03:20EST Dave Matthews Band - Rhyme And Reason, 2004-11-21T22:19:10EST Dave Matthews Band - #41, 2004-11-21T22:11:30EST Dave Matthews Band - The Stone, 2004-11-21T21:38:40EST Dave Matthews Band - Intro to Listener Supported, 2004-11-21T22:34:50EST Dave Matthews Band - Jimi Thing, 2004-11-21T21:56:51EST Dave Matthews Band - Rapunzel
16:33:01 <Arnia> * Arnia goes back to his cogsem ontology
16:33:12 <crschmidt> The data is there, you just need to add an extra layer that says "alright, only show me the latest"
16:33:20 <eaon> yep, thats what i meant
16:33:32 <crschmidt> Yeah, I was explaining to arnia: you had it right
16:33:50 <eaon> eventually, even grab a file before querying
16:34:32 <Arnia> Hum... not sure I like the triplish view. But I need to formulate a coherent alternative first so ignore ;)
16:38:14 <arcon> *** arcon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:40:04 <JibberJim> .cp bullet
16:40:07 <phenny> 2022: BULLET (•)
16:40:09 <phenny> 2023: TRIANGULAR BULLET (‣)
16:40:12 <phenny> 2043: HYPHEN BULLET (⁃) [...]
16:44:15 <crschmidt> hm.
16:45:01 <Arnia> .cp seagull
16:45:03 <libby> *** libby has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:45:04 <phenny> 033C: COMBINING SEAGULL BELOW (̼)
16:45:09 <Arnia> uhh
16:45:13 <Arnia> I didn't expect that
16:46:46 <JibberJim> this box hasn't got one of those :-(
16:47:40 <Arnia> I do... its a weird character
16:49:24 <Arnia> .cp penguin
16:49:26 <JibberJim> an upside down flying bum?
16:49:26 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'penguin'.
16:49:41 <Arnia> JibberJim: Yes... but really really tiny
16:49:45 <eaon> hahaha
16:49:46 <Arnia> And offset to the left
16:49:52 <JibberJim> .cp horn
16:49:54 <phenny> 00DE: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER THORN (Þ)
16:49:57 <phenny> 00FE: LATIN SMALL LETTER THORN (þ)
16:50:00 <phenny> 01A0: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH HORN (Ơ) [...]
16:50:06 <eaon> .cp snowman
16:50:09 <phenny> 2603: SNOWMAN (☃)
16:50:17 <eaon> i like the snowman - it doesn't look like one though
16:50:17 <Arnia> That's a cool character
16:50:23 <JibberJim> everyone knows there's a snowman!
16:50:34 <Arnia> .cp badger
16:50:37 <phenny> 2F98: KANGXI RADICAL BADGER (⾘)
16:50:45 <Arnia> !!!
16:50:46 <eaon> holy shit
16:51:01 <Arnia> This is a great game
16:51:10 <JibberJim> .cp sprout
16:51:12 <phenny> 2F2C: KANGXI RADICAL SPROUT (⼬)
16:51:29 <Arnia> Robert Rankin fan?
16:51:41 <Arnia> .cp Barry
16:51:43 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'Barry'.
16:51:45 <JibberJim> .cp brentford
16:51:48 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'brentford'.
16:51:51 <Arnia> .cp elvis
16:51:54 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'elvis'.
16:52:05 <JibberJim> .cp leather
16:52:08 <phenny> 2ED9: CJK RADICAL C-SIMPLIFIED TANNED LEATHER (⻙)
16:52:11 <phenny> 2FB0: KANGXI RADICAL LEATHER (⾰)
16:52:14 <phenny> 2FB1: KANGXI RADICAL TANNED LEATHER (⾱) [...]
16:52:25 <arcon> *** arcon (~arcon@dsl027-161-088.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #swhack
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16:52:39 <Arnia> We need UTF64...
16:52:48 <Arnia> Actually, I just want UTF 64 ;)
16:52:50 <arcon_> *** arcon_ has quit (Client Quit)
16:52:53 <JibberJim> Is Leather/tanned leather dinstinction really important enough in Kangxi to make it into unicode?
16:53:15 <Arnia> Apparently...
16:53:49 <candyman> yep
16:53:55 <candyman> one of them is edible, the other is not
16:54:35 <Arnia> Does their language distinguish regularly between edible and non-edible items?
16:56:29 <jwiens> *** jwiens (~jwiens@jwiens.user) has joined #swhack
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16:59:17 <crschmidt> hi jwiens, welcome to swhack, where your political career will be destroyed by your indescretions being placed in a world readable irc log! more info at swhack.com
17:02:01 <Arnia> Nice intro
17:02:10 <crschmidt> ^ns rdf
17:02:10 <julie> The URL for the rdf namespace is http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#
17:02:32 <Arnia> * Arnia hands crschmidt a radical badger
17:03:59 <Morbus> http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_eye_of_god.htm
17:10:18 <schepers> *** schepers has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
17:12:50 <chrisMobile> *** chrisMobile (~chrisMobi@m19105e42.tmodns.net) has joined #swhack
17:13:12 <chrisMobile> aim: cr5chmidt
17:13:21 <crschmidt> whee
17:15:51 <chrisMobile> *** chrisMobile has quit (Client Quit)
17:24:04 <JulioBell> *** JulioBell (i@80-28-0-90.adsl.nuria.telefonica-data.net) has joined #swhack
17:24:04 <Monty> it's JulioBell!
17:24:12 <JulioBell> hi
17:24:42 <cskaterun> *** cskaterun (~cskaterun@66-27-73-30.san.rr.com) has joined #swhack
17:24:46 <JulioBell> "Microsoft EU Monopoly Appeal Thrown Out"
17:24:46 <JulioBell> Real
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17:29:05 <candyman> hi all
17:30:17 <Arnia> Hiya
17:30:55 <Talliesin> <Arnia> We need UTF64...
17:31:01 <Talliesin> Form or Scheme?
17:31:24 <Talliesin> As a encoding form it would be exactly the same as UTF 32 anyway
17:31:31 <Talliesin> As a scheme it'd just have extra zeros
17:31:51 <Ash> FORM OF: SCHEME
17:32:04 <JibberJim> I think it was as a way to get more pictographic badgers into phenny
17:32:39 <Arnia> Talliesin: I thought you were away until after christmas :)
17:32:47 <Arnia> JibberJim: Correct :)
17:33:44 <Talliesin_> *** Talliesin_ (~Jon@83-70-245-174.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net) has joined #swhack
17:35:38 <Arnia> Two Talliesins?
17:38:27 <Talliesin> *** Talliesin has quit (Nick collision from services.)
17:38:32 <Talliesin_> *** Talliesin_ is now known as Talliesin
17:40:21 <schepers> *** schepers (~schepers@rdu57-5-100.nc.rr.com) has joined #swhack
17:42:26 <crschmidt> ^ns dc
17:42:26 <julie> The URL for the dc namespace is http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/
17:43:04 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim has quit ("dIRC IRC Client - www.dragonmount.net/dirc/")
17:43:11 <crschmidt> ^q select ?p where (<http://crschmidt.net/foaf.rdf> dc:creator ?p)
17:43:11 <julie> (r1100194349r5)
17:43:17 <Arnia> crschmidt: you should have an ns table printed out and stuck on the wall above your desk
17:43:40 <crschmidt> I can't copy paste from that
17:45:17 <Arnia> What about a note on your (computer) desktop?
17:47:29 <crschmidt> I use 3 or 4 different computers regularly
17:47:45 <Arnia> A
17:47:46 <Arnia> h
17:50:10 <Ash> *** Ash has changed the topic to: STOP HACKING
18:20:55 <deusx> Stop hacking? Is that like, stop the presses?
18:21:06 <Ash> heh
18:21:09 <Ash> *** Ash has changed the topic to: STOP HACKING ME
18:21:11 <Ash> there that's better
18:21:33 <Arnia> *** Arnia has changed the topic to: STOP HACKING THE UNIVERSE | Gravity has reversed
18:28:09 <Morbus> monty, remind me in 30 minutes to rootle dee toot
18:28:09 <Monty> Morbus: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Wed Dec 22 18:56:37 GMT 2004
18:28:59 <schepers> net bot feature
18:29:05 <schepers> neat, too
18:29:09 <crschmidt> "Arises when converting from an internal 96-bit real representation to a TReal32: the exponent of the internal representation is so small that the 32-bit real cannot contain it."
18:29:20 <crschmidt> That would be the symbian error: "KErrTotalLossOfPrecision"
18:31:39 <bjoern_> *** bjoern_ (~bjoern@82.83.167.23) has joined #swhack
18:33:51 <crschmidt> bleh. all the rdf/xml parsers probably use an xml.sax module or something like that.
18:35:28 <Arnia> Use an NTriples rep?
18:35:47 <crschmidt> Hm?
18:36:49 <crschmidt> almost all of the FOAF data on the web is RDF/XML. Writing an application which only reads in ntriples is not going to be all that useful
18:37:08 <Arnia> Yes, but you could use a phone gateway
18:37:20 <crschmidt> I don't understand?
18:37:45 <Arnia> If this is for your phone, have a webservice that takes an RDF/XML doc and converts it to NTriples for you
18:38:32 <crschmidt> ah, right.
18:38:37 <eaon> thats a bit much traffic though
18:38:37 <crschmidt> that's what i had just started working on
18:38:43 <crschmidt> eh
18:38:58 <sbp> bz2'd N-Triples :-)
18:39:11 <crschmidt> oh, and unbzip them on the phone? :P
18:39:14 <eaon> the phone does bz2? ;)
18:39:19 <sbp> of course it does
18:39:19 <crschmidt> well, if python does it
18:39:21 <crschmidt> the phone does
18:39:23 <sbp> it has py... right
18:39:37 <crschmidt> other than funky things like xml.sax
18:39:43 <Morbus> *** Morbus has changed the topic to: STOP HACKING THE UNIVERSE | Gravity has reversed | <Morbus> We know return you to the SBP SILENCE SIT-IN
18:39:52 <sbp> *** sbp has changed the topic to: STOP HACKING THE UNIVERSE | Gravity has reversed | <Morbus> We now return you to the SBP SILENCE SIT-IN
18:40:06 <sbp> ha!
18:40:10 <sbp> and you can't comment
18:40:12 <sbp> s/ //
18:40:16 <Morbus> *** Morbus has changed the topic to: STOP HACKING THE UNIVERSE | Gravity has reversed | <Morbus> We now return you to the SBP SILENCE SIT-IN | <Morbus> Ayup. I still hate 'em.
18:40:17 <sbp> because that'd be acknowledging me
18:40:24 <sbp> them?
18:40:27 <Morbus> *** Morbus has changed the topic to: STOP HACKING THE UNIVERSE | Gravity has reversed | <Morbus> We now return you to the SBP SILENCE SIT-IN | <Morbus> Ayup. I still hate 'im.
18:40:31 <sbp> heheh
18:40:45 <sbp> a plethora! a plethora of victiors I say!
18:41:15 <sbp> * sbp wonders nevertheless what he can do to dig himself out of this one
18:41:52 <crschmidt> sbp: what's the compression module?
18:42:21 <sbp> have you tried bz2?
18:42:44 <sbp> also zlib and gzip for the others
18:42:45 <sbp> http://www.python.org/doc/2.4/lib/lib.html
18:42:46 <crschmidt> yeah, no module named bz2
18:42:52 <sbp> ah, nuts
18:43:00 <sbp> try zlib and gzip then
18:43:01 <crschmidt> no gzip either
18:43:04 <sbp> eek
18:43:06 <sbp> zlib?
18:43:07 <crschmidt> or zlib, that's what i tried first
18:43:17 <sbp> zipfile?
18:43:32 <crschmidt> so, apparently the phone *doesn't* do compression
18:43:32 <crschmidt> nope
18:43:38 <sbp> ever thought about writing your own gzip implementation?
18:43:39 <eaon> compression on a phone wouldn't that use quite some batteries?
18:44:29 <crschmidt> pfft, batteries schmatteries
18:44:36 <sbp> crschmatteries
18:44:39 <crschmidt> anyway, should get back to writing that webservice
18:44:51 <Morbus> hey, if Sony can ignore battery life, so can you, crschmidt
18:45:31 <Ash> sbp: http://outofband.org/~aaron/lucia_vs_chester.html
18:46:38 <eaon> * eaon sticks whiskers into Morbus
18:46:38 <deltab> the town of Chester?
18:47:59 <Arnia> I have a couple of friends from Chester
18:48:01 <Arnia> Nice city
18:48:20 <deltab> ah
18:48:43 <Arnia> How odd...
18:49:00 <sbp> Ash: heheh. but I don't know what a "Chester" is... unless you mean the city
18:50:09 <deltab> nothing like the place Hollyoaks is set, I suppose
18:50:43 <Arnia> Hollyoaks is filmed in Liverpool I believe even though its set in Chester
18:50:44 <Arnia> Odd
18:51:02 <Morbus> eaon: am I sexy?
18:51:26 <deltab> today's episode features yet another Christmas Carol adaption
18:51:37 <deltab> I've seen three over the last couple of weeks
18:52:05 <eaon> Morbus: it's okay but i prefer the red underwear
18:52:39 <Morbus> i have red boxers somewhere around here.
18:52:52 <Arnia> I don't watch Hollyoaks
18:52:56 <deltab> and one wasn't even Xmas-themed
18:53:12 <Arnia> How do you do a Christmas Carol adaptation without Christmas
18:53:23 <Morbus> please sir, may I have some more easter eggs?
18:53:43 <Ash> heh
18:53:58 <Ash> Chester is a character from MTV's old Sifl 'n' Olly show
18:53:59 <deltab> it was about a birthday present
18:54:07 <Ash> http://www.sifl-n-olly.com/chester/
18:54:29 <deltab> and featured the Ghost of Tomorrow's Lunch and the Ghost of Presents Past (which caused some confusion)
18:55:50 <deltab> Arthur episode #406 "Prunella Gets It Twice"
18:56:22 <deltab> http://www.angelfire.com/ma2/ecdc/40602.htm
18:56:44 <deltab> Ghost of Lunch Tomorrow, rather
18:57:52 <Morbus> [[[
18:57:52 <Morbus> <setuid> seems someone changed my drupal directory when I wasn't on shift
18:57:52 <Morbus> <Morbus> you want me to kill 'em?
18:57:52 <Morbus> <Morbus> i'll kill 'em.
18:57:52 <Morbus> <setuid> Yes, slowly, with a rusty spoon
18:57:53 <Morbus> <Morbus> unless they're cute.
18:57:54 <Morbus> <Morbus> then i'd probably feel 'em up first.
18:57:56 <Morbus> ]]]
18:58:15 <Monty> Morbus: You asked me to remind you to rootle dee toot
19:01:36 <deltab> (The other one was the Muppets Christmas Carol.)
19:02:50 <sbp> mmm... rootling the toote
19:03:30 <deltab> # Polly Locket
19:03:35 <deltab> # Has style and grace
19:03:45 <Arnia> Muppet's Christmas Carol is a classic though
19:03:46 <deltab> # You can keep your belongings
19:03:51 <deltab> # In her face!
19:04:09 <deltab> Arnia: yeah!
19:04:26 <sbp> heh. I just got spam from "Brevity F. Haughtiest"
19:04:33 <sbp> I wonder what the F stands for? Fuckable?
19:05:11 <Arnia> Fallic (using these guys' typical spelling ability)
19:05:25 <sbp> you make a good case
19:10:12 <bancus> *** bancus has quit ("Ex-Chat")
19:10:18 <bancus> *** bancus (~treed@24-53-63-152.ontrca.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
19:23:52 <Arnia> .cp penguin
19:23:55 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'penguin'.
19:24:05 <Arnia> * Arnia sulks at the lack of a penguin unicode character
19:25:54 <tav> *** tav (~tavino@pD9EB166F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #swhack
19:28:45 <crschmidt> http://crschmidt.net/semweb/xml2nt.cgi?uri=http://crschmidt.net/foaf.rdf
19:28:50 <crschmidt> That took about twice as long as it needed to.
19:34:07 <bancus> *** bancus has quit (Remote closed the connection)
19:34:50 <bancus> *** bancus (~treed@24-53-63-152.ontrca.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
19:37:34 <bjoern_> .val http://www.websitedesjahres.de/
19:37:39 <phenny> http://www.websitedesjahres.de/ is Invalid (29 errors)
19:41:07 <Arnia> Hah... Ozzy Osbourne is ranting in my local newspaper :p
19:46:14 <tav> *** tav has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:47:37 <libby> *** libby (~libby@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
19:57:32 <candyman> ah, tav just left
19:57:46 <candyman> window of opportunity missed
20:07:47 <jcowan> *** jcowan (~jcowan@a7cebc03.cst.lightpath.net) has joined #swhack
20:09:21 <jcowan> Swhack!
20:09:35 <Arnia> Snicker-snack, swhack
20:09:51 <jcowan> * jcowan draws the vorpal blade
20:10:29 <Arnia> * Arnia cowans in fear
20:10:34 <Arnia> Sorry... cowers
20:10:40 <eaon> *** eaon has quit (Remote closed the connection)
20:11:00 <candyman> * candyman goes galumphing back
20:11:02 <crschmidt> Beware the jabberwock, my son
20:11:21 <candyman> jaws:snatch, claws:catch
20:11:31 <jcowan> "cowan" is a term used by Masons (capital-M type) to mean "outsider"
20:11:38 <eaon> *** eaon (~mememe@chello213047096087.6.12.vie.surfer.at) has joined #swhack
20:11:39 <crschmidt> Calou, calay
20:11:49 <candyman> jubjub bird and frumious Bandersnatch!
20:12:02 <candyman> the latter is to be shunned, I believe
20:12:51 <jcowan> But only when frumious (fuming/furious)
20:12:55 <Arnia> I love #swhack :)
20:13:00 <jcowan> And so say we all.
20:13:10 <jcowan> If I weren't a #swhacker I wouldn't be here, number one channel, fire!
20:13:42 <candyman> you have said it once
20:13:44 <jcowan> (adapted from the traditional chant of a gunner firing a 21-gun (or N-gun) salute
20:14:26 <Arnia> * Arnia throws a NoSuchGunner Error
20:14:43 <Arnia> I love #swhack
20:14:50 <Arnia> I love #swhack
20:14:50 <xavier> *** xavier has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:14:51 <jcowan> * jcowan catches it and fires it again!
20:14:58 <jcowan> What you tell us three times is true!
20:15:02 <candyman> you've said it twice, and then once more
20:15:14 <candyman> ah, jcowan is right!
20:15:21 <Arnia> * Arnia wonders if a nuke would solve this
20:15:30 <crschmidt> http://crschmidt.net/semweb/xml2nt.cgi?uri=http://crschmidt.net/foaf.rdf I'm impressed that it only takes 10 lines from she-bang to EOF to create an xml->ntriples RDF conversion script.
20:15:42 <candyman> it would leave us with
20:15:53 <candyman> a map we could all understand
20:16:05 <Arnia> .cp badger
20:16:08 <phenny> 2F98: KANGXI RADICAL BADGER (⾘)
20:16:12 <Arnia> * Arnia giggles
20:16:26 <candyman> I like radical -OH myself
20:16:44 <candyman> but the fact there is a radical badger is very cool in and of itself
20:16:59 <candyman> alternative tentacles, radical badgers...
20:17:18 <candyman> ah, I have been looking up and down for the source of a quotation (I even googled for it):
20:17:19 <jcowan> * jcowan , channeling Shub-Internet, gulps down Arnia's nuke and burps happily.
20:17:38 <candyman> "It was a time of uncertain leisure and faulty parachutes"
20:17:47 <candyman> I would bet it is Mark Leyner's
20:17:51 <candyman> but I can't find it
20:18:02 <candyman> as I said, I have scoured my bookshelves
20:18:07 <candyman> and even Googled for it
20:18:23 <jcowan> Ftekh. Gutenberg's RSS feed is up but the server is down, so what use is it?
20:19:19 <jcowan> A big fat violation of the fate-sharing principle.
20:19:55 <Arnia> .cp seagull
20:19:58 <phenny> 033C: COMBINING SEAGULL BELOW (̼)
20:20:06 <candyman> I get it
20:20:10 <candyman> .cp funnel
20:20:11 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'funnel'.
20:20:16 <candyman> .cp lovely
20:20:18 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'lovely'.
20:20:20 <Arnia> I want penguin :(
20:20:22 <Arnia> .cp love
20:20:24 <jcowan> .cp smmile
20:20:24 <candyman> .cp penguin
20:20:27 <jcowan> cp .smile
20:20:30 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'love'.
20:20:32 <jcowan> .cp smile
20:20:33 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'penguin'.
20:20:35 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'smmile'.
20:20:36 <xavier> *** xavier (~steve@roc-66-67-229-158.rochester.rr.com) has joined #swhack
20:20:37 <phenny> 2323: SMILE (⌣)
20:20:43 <jcowan> Thuryago.
20:20:44 <Arnia> .cp sad
20:20:47 <phenny> 05E5: HEBREW LETTER FINAL TSADI (ץ)
20:20:50 <phenny> 05E6: HEBREW LETTER TSADI (צ)
20:20:54 <phenny> 0635: ARABIC LETTER SAD (ص) [...]
20:20:54 <bjoern_> seems you need `.unihan <regex>`
20:20:57 <jcowan> nyuk nyuk
20:21:05 <Arnia> .cp frown
20:21:07 <candyman> .cp Those that seen from a distance look like flies
20:21:07 <phenny> 2322: FROWN (⌢)
20:21:10 <phenny> 2639: WHITE FROWNING FACE (☹)
20:21:13 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'Those that seen from a distance look like flies'.
20:21:18 <jcowan> Smile and frown are math operators
20:21:25 <candyman> smile and frown?
20:21:27 <Arnia> I know
20:21:28 <candyman> what math?
20:21:35 <Arnia> Used in Z for example
20:21:45 <candyman> Z?
20:21:50 <candyman> there is so much I am missing
20:21:52 <Arnia> I was the only guy in my class who liked Z
20:21:56 <candyman> * candyman goes back to his studies
20:21:59 <Arnia> .g Z formal specification
20:21:59 <candyman> what is Z?
20:22:07 <phenny> Z formal specification: http://archive.comlab.ox.ac.uk/z.html
20:22:10 <candyman> "Zed is dead, baby, Zed is dead"
20:22:18 <candyman> thanks, Arnia
20:22:33 <candyman> I only know Infocom's Z machine
20:22:37 <candyman> * candyman goes look
20:23:13 <candyman> hmm, heavy
20:23:19 <candyman> Arina, what exactly is this for?
20:23:39 <Arnia> It has some great ideas... and is a requirement for many military projects in the UK (hence why Durham taught it until recently)
20:23:44 <candyman> there is also Z for Zorglub
20:23:53 <Arnia> Formal Specification for software
20:23:56 <candyman> lovely comic by Sempé and Goscinny, if I remember
20:24:03 <candyman> Marsupilami
20:24:05 <Arnia> Specifications you can prove against
20:24:25 <candyman> so could you define Quake in Z
20:24:31 <candyman> and then prove it correct?
20:24:44 <candyman> what kind of mad FPS would you get then?
20:24:49 <H0gan> *** H0gan (~rayhogan@dsl.allan.MV.COM) has joined #swhack
20:25:00 <jcowan> Z is called Zed in the U.S.
20:25:34 <candyman> yes, the Hispanic community kept mistaking it with C
20:25:41 <H0gan> jcowan: Same in Ireland.
20:25:41 <Arnia> Its called Z here too :p
20:25:45 <candyman> so they used the British pronounciation
20:25:51 <jcowan> No, it's called Z there and Zed here.
20:26:00 <candyman> jcowan WINS!
20:26:05 <jcowan> If it were called Z here, it would have to be pronounced Zee, so it isn't.
20:26:12 <candyman> * candyman is laughing out loud
20:26:16 <Arnia> I know... I was being objectionable
20:26:42 <jcowan> As opposed to Posix, say, which is called Posix everywhere but is pronounced differently in different places.
20:27:16 <jcowan> Early drafts of Posix attempted to prescribe the American pronunciation, which would have required it to be called Parsix in the U.K. This was seen as undesirable.
20:27:17 <candyman> M"y name is Po Zí, and I pronounce Posix, Po Zí"
20:27:46 <jcowan> Is Unix pronounced with a silent x in France, I wonder?
20:27:59 <candyman> (Po Zi being a minor celebrity freak that kept saying Po Zi, or P"pes í", meaning "Well, yeah")
20:28:14 <candyman> I hate how my putty terminal edits strings with unicode in them
20:28:24 <candyman> it does not travel well between characters
20:28:31 <jcowan> Umm, set putty to Unicode mode, then?
20:28:32 <candyman> I think it is counting bytes somewhere
20:28:39 <candyman> it is on UTF-8 mode
20:28:42 <candyman> and failing
20:28:42 <jcowan> Ah.
20:29:13 <candyman> when on ISO mode, it does not display multi-bytes, but it counts them well
20:29:20 <jcowan> Blargh.
20:29:31 <candyman> it is in UTF-8 mode, right? not "on"...
20:29:49 <Arnia> Interesting cognitive semantics point with that...
20:29:59 <candyman> why is that?
20:29:59 <xavier> *** xavier has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:30:04 <Arnia> Some properties seem to behave like containers rather than points
20:30:05 <candyman> we have only one "en" in Spanish
20:30:13 <candyman> I screw them up sometimes
20:30:23 <sal> *** sal has quit ()
20:30:23 <Arnia> (hence they take 'in' rather than 'at' formulation)
20:30:43 <candyman> example?
20:30:48 <xavier> *** xavier (~steve@roc-66-67-229-158.rochester.rr.com) has joined #swhack
20:30:49 <Monty> But what does xavier have to do with the price of fish?
20:30:51 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
20:30:52 <jcowan> "mode", precisely; one is "in a mode"
20:30:53 <Monty> frege-or-what-used-to-be-kahlua
20:30:55 <Arnia> 'in some mode*
20:31:18 <jcowan> "Don't bother me now, I'm in heads-down mode", e.g.
20:31:22 <Morbus> jcowan!
20:31:27 <sal> *** sal (~salvatore@67.63.154.225) has joined #swhack
20:31:28 <Morbus> my god, i didn't see you.
20:31:32 <peepo> *** peepo has quit ("have a good one ~:"")
20:31:33 <Arnia> Let me find a point-like one...
20:31:37 <Arnia> * Arnia gets out Talmy 2001
20:31:42 <Morbus> sal joins swhack before f2o. rocking.
20:31:50 <jcowan> .g f2o
20:31:55 <Morbus> oh, wait a minute, nevermind.
20:31:55 <phenny> f2o: http://f2o.org/
20:31:57 <Morbus> ah well, close enough.
20:32:01 <Morbus> (yeah, that's right, jcowan)
20:32:38 <Arnia> Hum... perhaps its in Jackendoff 1983 (which I don't have a copy of here... bleh)
20:32:46 <jcowan> * jcowan notes that f2o.org does *not* offer a partridge in a pear tree.
20:33:11 <jcowan> What is a database?
20:33:27 <jcowan> That is to say, what distinguishes a database from some random aggregation of tables?
20:33:44 <Arnia> 'John went from red to green' seems to require red and green to be point-like though
20:33:46 <jcowan> The Third Manifesto is unhelpful.
20:33:58 <Arnia> jcowan: Inter-relating structure?
20:34:16 <jcowan> How do we understand this operationally?
20:34:31 <Arnia> jcowan: key columns?
20:34:33 <crschmidt> jcowan: anything that can be removed from the server with "drop database $dbname;" is a database.
20:34:40 <jcowan> crschmidt: that's *too* operational.
20:34:56 <jcowan> So far, the properties of databases as such seem to be ownership- and security-related.
20:35:00 <redmonk> *** redmonk has quit ()
20:35:07 <candyman> * candyman is not sure jcowan and Arnia are not representing a Monty Python skit from a parallel dimension where people know CS
20:35:07 <Monty> Yay. Reasonably priced fish! Got Included in PPF.java
20:35:30 <Arnia> I love this example of figure and ground semantics - "he exploded after he touched the button"
20:35:37 <Arnia> You could almost imagine he knows d8uv
20:35:55 <Morbus> a database is a collection of data, segmented into groups of relevant elements, which may or may not have equivalency with other groups.
20:36:24 <Morbus> (optionally) segemented into groupos, rather.
20:36:31 <jcowan> Arnia: how about "He turned into a corner"?
20:36:42 <jcowan> * jcowan segements Morbus into a groupo.
20:36:51 <Arnia> In what interpretation... realistic or surrealist? :)
20:37:03 <Arnia> If I turned into a corner, I'd feel upset with my edges :)
20:37:06 <candyman> Arnia, figure and ground? care to expound on the example?
20:37:20 <d8uv> *** d8uv (d8uv@66.223.222.206) has joined #swhack
20:37:52 <Arnia> candyman: Its a bad example of 'standard' (spatial domain) figure and ground... but its a good example of figure and ground in a temporal domain
20:37:53 <candyman> d8uv, please, touch the button
20:38:39 <d8uv> * d8uv presses the button
20:38:41 <Arnia> candyman: the button touching event is the ground (fixed reference point) and the explosion event is the figure (the thing who's properties are being determined relative to the ground)
20:38:51 <jcowan> * jcowan suspects that "after" has turned history on its head and has become a temporal particle with a spatial metaphorical extension.
20:39:10 <d8uv> * d8uv explodes
20:39:16 <Arnia> I believe the 'repurposed' domain theory
20:39:29 <jcowan> I probably would too if I knew what it was.
20:39:59 <Arnia> As in, the temporal and spatial domains are somehow more fundamental and other domains (such as properties, possession etc) are repurposings of these fundamental domains
20:40:44 <candyman> ok
20:40:54 <candyman> in Spanish there is a lot of where for when and when for where
20:40:59 <candyman> off the top of my head
20:41:05 <candyman> "the year in which"
20:41:06 <Arnia> It explains quite neatly why prepositions, 'GO' and 'AT' event structure etc are common between all domains
20:41:10 <candyman> also in English
20:41:15 <candyman> "el año en el que lo hicimos"
20:41:20 <Arnia> Spanish is interesting... its a Motion+Path conflation language
20:41:23 <candyman> you didn't do it "in" a year
20:41:37 <candyman> jcowan talked about that the other day
20:41:51 <candyman> I feel like I threw away my Uni time, not learning these things
20:42:11 <candyman> for a long time I have said Complutense is what you get instead of a University education. Now I am sure
20:42:12 <Arnia> The verb lexeme contains the character of motion (GO or AT) and the path relative to the ground (e.g to, enter, leave etc)
20:42:24 <Arnia> English is a Motion+Co-Event conflation language
20:42:30 <candyman> jcowan, Arnia, care to provide me with a (very basic) bibliography?
20:42:34 <candyman> so I understood, yes
20:42:46 <candyman> nosotros vamos, venimos, entramos, salimos
20:42:57 <candyman> you run in, go back, amble around, etc
20:43:06 <Arnia> So the verb lexeme contains the character of motion and a manner/cause co-event
20:43:40 <candyman> yep, there is a long jcowan talk in the #swhack logs about this very topic
20:43:52 <jcowan> * jcowan never got a university education, certainly not at any university
20:43:57 <candyman> he gave an exemple with kids, of a paper done by a researcher
20:44:04 <candyman> jcowan, brilliant
20:44:14 <Arnia> For cognitive/conceptual semantics I'd recommend reading the works of Jackendoff, Talmy, Dowty, Cullicover and Pustejovsky
20:44:28 <jcowan> Or alternatively the works of Batten, Barton, Durston, and Osborne
20:44:37 <candyman> I did not, but I paid for it with my time (I got it for free because I worked at University)
20:44:43 <Arnia> Yes :)
20:44:50 <candyman> time I could have used better somewhere else
20:44:53 <candyman> ok, I don't have much time
20:45:11 <candyman> so care to please recommend me just two?
20:45:25 <Arnia> Talmy 2001 is a comprehensive survey of his style of cognitive semantics
20:45:30 <jcowan> But very tough.
20:45:42 <candyman> I am assuming the others will be in those two's bibliographies, or in their bibliography tree
20:45:42 <Arnia> Jackendoff 1983 is a good introduction
20:45:50 <candyman> I have a lot on my plate right now
20:45:58 <candyman> something lighter would be appreciated
20:46:04 <candyman> Jackendoff 1983 it is, then
20:46:10 <candyman> and as a companion?
20:46:14 <jcowan> Arnia: you don't mention George Lakoff?
20:46:23 <Arnia> Oops
20:46:26 <Arnia> Sorry... yes
20:46:28 <candyman> he rings a bell
20:46:32 <candyman> fist one I have heard about
20:46:36 <Arnia> Fire Women and Dangerous Things
20:46:46 <jcowan> Women, Fire
20:46:56 <Arnia> Jackendoff 1990 expands on 1983... Jackendoff 2002 is very readable and weaves the whole programme back into psychology etc
20:47:04 <jcowan> Definitely the most accessible. Then Jackendoff 1983, I think.
20:47:12 <Arnia> jcowan: I always flip them around *bleh*
20:47:24 <candyman> ok, 2002 or 1990 then?
20:47:26 <jcowan> OK when googling, bad when looking at bibliographies.
20:47:37 <candyman> Women, Fire is "divulgatioN"
20:47:44 <Arnia> 2002 is less technical than 1990
20:47:50 <candyman> (how do you say "divulgación" in English?)
20:47:59 <jcowan> Transposition, I think.
20:48:21 <candyman> no, I mean like Popular Science is Divulgación Científica
20:48:49 <candyman> not a Scientific treatise, but more like Asimov and Steven Pinker with The Language Instinct..
20:48:54 <Arnia> I'd also recommend (if you get time) that you read Jackendoff 1997 (The Architecture of the Language Faculty) for its work on morphology, idioms, metaphor and the lexicon
20:48:59 <candyman> for the curious layperson
20:49:12 <candyman> it seems Jackendoff is the man, then
20:49:27 <candyman> I will check out second-hand bookshosp when I am in London
20:49:35 <candyman> that will be my first stop
20:49:38 <Arnia> Depends on your tastes... he's done a lot of 'broad' research which makes him good to get a grip on the field
20:49:51 <Arnia> Talmy's work is more in-depth, but less accessible
20:50:26 <Arnia> As Pinker said, "Jackendoff has long had the talent for seeing both the trees and the forest"
20:50:40 <Arnia> Talmy can see the trees' bark
20:51:08 <candyman> heh
20:51:14 <candyman> Jackendoff it will be, then
20:51:27 <candyman> deeper I can delve later, if so inclined
20:52:01 <jcowan> candyman: Oh, I see, like French "vulgarisation". "Popularization". But unfortunately that is often derogative, as the Anglo-American scientific tradition looks down on popularizers (unlike the French)
20:52:13 <candyman> yep
20:52:37 <candyman> well, in Spain many great writers for lay people are called "divulgadores"
20:52:46 <candyman> Martin Gardner is one such person
20:53:05 <candyman> A Brief History of Time is considered "divulgación"
20:53:10 <Arnia> Pinker doesn't seem to have been looked down on so much though... seen lots of references to his 'popular' works in serious papers. You may have a better perspective on that though
20:53:28 <jcowan> True. I wonder why that is?
20:53:30 <candyman> Gell-Mann, Feynman both have books considered "divulgación"
20:53:39 <candyman> well, The Blank Slate is a fucking Thesis
20:53:51 <candyman> it is readable as well by laypeople, twice good!
20:54:03 <candyman> not a lot of original research in it, admittedly
20:54:08 <Arnia> And Jackendoff 2002 is able to be read by lay-people and yet is a bloody impressive academic work too
20:54:13 <candyman> good
20:54:31 <candyman> I will start with Jackendoff 2002, possibly 1997 too
20:54:34 <candyman> thanks, both of yoU!
20:55:26 <Arnia> I think it depends on personality... Jackendoff and Pinker (afaict) are both very approachable, friendly guys who like showing lay-people how interesting their fields are. Jackendoff is especially approachable when I've emailed him.
20:56:05 <candyman> that is good
20:56:18 <candyman> I have found deliberate attempts at obscurity to be frustrating
20:56:23 <jcowan> And Feynman was a certified genius. But Gould and Sagan both took a lot of heat professionally for their popularizing work.
20:56:33 <candyman> especially when one is young an impressionable
20:56:34 <jcowan> candyman: first thing we do, let's kill all the French.
20:56:43 <candyman> not all
20:56:52 <candyman> Raymond Queneau, Perec...
20:57:01 <candyman> * candyman hugs some, already dead, French people
20:57:21 <jcowan> Queneau, certainly. I've never actually read Perec, just read about him.
20:57:40 <candyman> but Americans who follow the French, mostly having read them in translation, and then proceed to rip Enlightment a new asshole...
20:57:59 <candyman> I would be happy to be on the péloton de fusillade
20:58:16 <candyman> or however it is said (too lazy to google today)
20:58:21 <candyman> Perec was a fucking genius
20:58:28 <candyman> read his biography by Bellos
20:58:31 <candyman> it is very sad too
20:58:39 <candyman> but funny
20:59:07 <Arnia> jcowan: Do you have a copy of Jackendoff's paper 'Parts and Boundaries' on your computer by any chance? I seem to have misplaced mine and I need to refer to it in a paper I'm writing :)
20:59:17 <jcowan> Nope, sorry.
20:59:22 <jcowan> Google Scholar might help.
20:59:43 <Arnia> Of all the times to lose a paper, when I'm 300 miles from my university library seems like the least opportune
20:59:46 <Arnia> Yeah
21:00:49 <jcowan> candyman: I think you want "on the front line", metaphorically.
21:00:52 <jcowan> s/line/lines
21:01:10 <candyman> no, I meant on the shooting squad
21:01:17 <candyman> or in the shooting squad
21:01:26 <candyman> whichever means I get to shoot earlier
21:01:37 <candyman> fusilamiento
21:02:02 <candyman> I want to throw the switch on them and their electric chair
21:02:09 <candyman> they made me lose my YOUTH!
21:02:22 <candyman> they really made my University experience miserable
21:02:33 <candyman> I enjoyed Hugh Kenner and Denis Donaghue
21:02:36 <jcowan> Oh, I see. In that case the idiom is "on the firing line" for general battle, or "in the firing squad" for military executions.
21:02:45 <jcowan> Kenner is a cool fellow in person: met him when I was 12.
21:02:47 <candyman> my teachers gave me Paul de Man
21:03:11 <candyman> jcowan, good. A friend of mine (recent, I met her through work) actuall studied under him at John Hopkins
21:03:18 <candyman> I think Kenner died, I am not sure
21:03:40 <jcowan> My father was a notorious gadfly in the James Joyce industry, being homo unius libri
21:04:14 <candyman> I have a book by Kenner on Ulyses where he solves the mistery of the man in the Macintosh
21:04:24 <candyman> and he was so cool he even had a column in Byte!
21:04:59 <jcowan> Hugh Kenner died 24 November 2003
21:05:12 <jcowan> yet another hidden Canadian
21:05:49 <jcowan> My father was also deaf, so the two of them bellowed at each other as if from opposite ends of Dublin.
21:05:55 <candyman> eh
21:06:12 <candyman> half my dad's family are very hard of hearing
21:06:27 <candyman> makes for interesting Christmases
21:07:10 <candyman> the James Joyce industry, you say
21:07:17 <candyman> did he live from it?
21:07:23 <candyman> or was he just a satellite?
21:07:54 <jcowan> No, my father was a lawyer among the philosophers and a philosopher among the lawyers.
21:09:07 <jcowan> After he retired from teaching Ph.D. students philosophy and law students torts and jurisprudence, he went on to work as chief philosopher for a management consultancy firm run by ex-students (philosophers, not lawyers)
21:09:08 <candyman> chiasmus bonus!
21:09:23 <jcowan> * jcowan goes "ding".
21:10:05 <xavier> *** xavier has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:10:24 <jcowan> My boss said he wanted to do this one better, by adding economics as well. He figured that to be a philosopher among the lawyers, a lawyer among the economists, and an economist among the philosophers made you the nearest thing to unanswerable that any human being could be.
21:10:32 <jcowan> Unfortunately, he's now too old to go to law school.
21:10:39 <jcowan> So he has become a professor of business ethics.
21:11:01 <candyman> that is not intended as a joke, I am sure. But it has a lot of irony.
21:12:38 <jcowan> The whole concept of "business ethics" has irony built into it.
21:12:59 <candyman> yep, I didn't spot that
21:13:00 <jcowan> But hey, it's a living.
21:13:49 <jcowan> The great thing about Anglo-American law schools is that the most senior professors teach the introductory courses. I think this is not true in any other discipline, at least in the U.S.
21:14:04 <candyman> yes
21:14:10 <Arnia> Its true in Durham of most courses
21:14:12 <jcowan> Hence the odd-looking, but correct, collation "torts and jurisprudence"
21:14:20 <jcowan> Arnia: excellent.
21:14:22 <Arnia> They're usually appalling lecturers though
21:14:43 <jcowan> Tolkienish rumble-bumble?
21:14:48 <candyman> also you have Nobel prizes teaching Physics for Poets (i.e. liberal arts undergrads)
21:15:03 <jcowan> My father was a master of the lecturer's art.
21:15:25 <jcowan> candyman: I think that's more a publicity stunt than anything, though the principle is sound.
21:15:53 <candyman> ah, I never considered it that way. Whatever the rationale, the students do get the benefit
21:16:31 <candyman> I am glad I got Feyman's lectures on physics, that he wrote an introductory course
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21:16:40 <jcowan> There's a bit of a problem in law school, in that great professors (broadly considered) are not necessarily great practitioners.
21:16:56 <candyman> not only abstruse papers about quantum stuff that need 10 years just to be able to understand the title
21:17:02 <jcowan> * jcowan laughs.
21:17:10 <jcowan> .g "breakdown of physicists"
21:17:13 <phenny> "breakdown of physicists": sorry, no results were found.
21:17:56 <jcowan> Hawking once gave a talk called (more or less) "The Breakdown of Physics in the region of singularities".
21:18:00 <jcowan> Or at least the first slide said that.
21:18:10 <jcowan> On the second slide, "physics" was corrected by hand to "physicists".
21:18:25 <candyman> had he done it?
21:18:30 <candyman> or was it a prank?
21:18:45 <jcowan> I assume that it was his idea and someone else did the handwriting.
21:18:54 <d8uv> Well, his hand in this case is Comic Sans.
21:19:05 <candyman> yes, Spanish has a lot of "do" for "have done by someone else"
21:19:09 <Arnia> My goodness... Count Rumford anticipated disco
21:19:11 <candyman> I let that carry into my English
21:19:26 <jcowan> [snootily] I prefer to leave that talk to CEOs
21:19:27 <candyman> and he could have done it while he still could
21:19:50 <candyman> in Spanish you say "voy a cortarme el pelo"
21:19:56 <candyman> for "I am going to have my hair cut"
21:19:57 <jcowan> Steve Jobs still talks about the computers he has designed.
21:20:16 <candyman> you can say "me van a cortar el pelo" or "voy a que me corten el pelo"
21:20:19 <candyman> but that is pedantic
21:20:34 <candyman> everybody knows that "me corté el pelo" was actually done by someone else
21:20:37 <jcowan> Spanish reflexives are very flexible.
21:20:58 <candyman> and I am sure Steve is very micromanaging, and he does have some say in every decision
21:21:10 <candyman> I once read he corrected leading on brochures
21:21:50 <jcowan> Arnia: anticipated disco how?
21:22:25 <candyman> Arnia, and who is Count Rumford?
21:22:41 <Arnia> jcowan: He argued that since colour perception is 'in the brain' then it would be possible to affect and seduce people by a combination of moving coloured lights and music
21:23:39 <jcowan> candyman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Thompson
21:24:03 <jcowan> * jcowan sometimes thinks of setting up justfuckinglookinwikipedia.com to complement justfuckinggoogleit.com
21:24:38 <jcowan> Arnia: Thanks.
21:24:54 <candyman> jcowan, thanks
21:24:57 <candyman> but no thanks
21:25:09 <candyman> "physicist, studied heat" would have sufficed
21:25:23 <candyman> or why it beared on the conversation
21:25:25 <candyman> or bore on it
21:26:15 <candyman> I was just making conversation: if I were really interested, I would have looked it up myself!
21:26:18 <jcowan> * jcowan is frequently a bear on the conversation.
21:26:34 <candyman> bear in a china shop
21:27:12 <candyman> .acronym IOW
21:27:16 <jcowan> Don't sell the bear's skin before you catch the bear
21:27:24 <candyman> @acronym IOW
21:27:26 <supybot> candyman: IOW could be I/O Write, or In Other Words, or Integrated Optical Waveguide, or Intelligence Operations Workstation (USMC), or International Office for Water, or Isle Of Wight
21:27:38 <candyman> look for the bear necessity
21:27:42 <jcowan> --maxim from which "bear" in the stock-market sense is derived, one who believes the market will fall.
21:27:54 <candyman> and bulls?
21:27:55 <jcowan> The simple bear necessities, the simple bear necessities of life!
21:28:02 <jcowan> Nobody knows.
21:28:18 <jcowan> It's another animal and it alliterates, that's about all.
21:28:26 <candyman> yep, and they charge in a hurrry
21:28:54 <bancus> they charge at the red though =P
21:29:10 <jcowan> Merrill Lynch used to use the slogan "Bullish on America" with corresponding logo of a bull, and were known on Wall St. as "The Thundering Herd" (also because they have more brokers than anybody else)
21:29:48 <jcowan> "It pains me to have to spend money for features and functions most of my end users won't even begin to need." --VP of IT at a small company explaining why he's switched to OpenOffice.org
21:29:54 <candyman> bancus, that is a myth
21:30:00 <candyman> they charge at anything that moves
21:30:02 <bancus> a myth?
21:30:04 <Morbus> jcowan: seen the new 2.0 betas?
21:30:04 <bancus> ah
21:30:09 <jcowan> Morbus: not yet
21:30:10 <Morbus> got a new Base appl that mimicks Access.
21:30:13 <jcowan> So I hear.
21:30:18 <Morbus> i've been hearing very good things about the beta, in general.
21:30:28 <Morbus> i just recently discovered that powerpoint stuff can be exported as Flash.
21:30:28 <candyman> the 2.0 is said to be wonderful
21:30:33 <Morbus> Now, I hate Flash, but I hate it less than PPT.
21:30:36 <Morbus> So, it's a great feature.
21:30:42 <candyman> Morbus, I used to have a good joke about it
21:30:45 <bancus> I find OOo to be ugly and slow
21:31:00 <Morbus> i've not found that - that's all I use on this box.
21:31:09 <candyman> when I worked in tv, there was talk about interactive tv
21:31:28 <candyman> and I used to say "well, what we need is a set-top-box that runs powerpoint"
21:31:37 <Arnia> OOo 2.0 is supposed to integrate well with the GTk industrial theme
21:31:48 <candyman> "that way the useless management can be put to produce content"
21:31:49 <Arnia> Its also supposed to use the new GTk filechooser -- which is good
21:32:05 <candyman> when a friend showed me recently a set-top box that does flash
21:32:12 <bancus> morbus: abiword is much more quick and much less ugly
21:32:16 <bancus> same with gnumeric
21:32:20 <candyman> I told him about OpenOffice exporting .ppt to flash
21:32:25 <candyman> we had quite a laugh
21:32:35 <jcowan> But Abiword is not cross-platform, which is important to me.
21:32:37 <Arnia> bancus: True, but abiword doesn't include such basic things as formulas
21:32:42 <Morbus> i've got abiword on this machine, but i've not fallen out of love with OOo enough to try it.
21:32:46 <bancus> it's fairly cross-platform, afaik
21:32:56 <candyman> imagining all those ex- McKinseys and ex-Procter&Gamble guys producing content for Canal+
21:32:57 <Morbus> yeah, i think abiword does run on windows.
21:33:00 <candyman> end of funny
21:33:00 <Morbus> maybe not os x though.
21:33:07 <bancus> it does have an osx port
21:33:07 <Morbus> but OOo only barely runs on os x anyways
21:33:09 <candyman> abiword on windows has horrid font support
21:33:11 <Morbus> oh yeah? cool.
21:33:19 <bancus> dunno if it's non-beta yet though
21:33:25 <candyman> I have to try it on linux yet
21:33:25 <Morbus> candyman: ahem. AHAHAHAHAH.
21:33:30 <bancus> http://www.abisource.com/screenshots/
21:33:35 <candyman> bancus, Morbus, try NeoOffice/J
21:33:42 <candyman> OO.o on OSX is dead
21:33:44 <bancus> NeoOffice/J?
21:33:45 <Morbus> yeah, they just came out with a new version of that ooday didn't they?
21:33:46 <bancus> never heard of it
21:33:49 <candyman> they are doing it in Java
21:33:52 <bancus> ew
21:34:07 <candyman> well, you want your Aqua widgets, you pay for it
21:34:23 <bancus> looks like abiword is plenty portable to me
21:34:25 <Morbus> i wish i knew why my Java wasn't interacting with my os x clipboard.
21:34:32 <bancus> Win32, GNOME, OSX and QNX
21:34:48 <bancus> all native, AFAICT
21:35:02 <jcowan> bancus: NeoOffice/J does only the UI in Java: underneath it's plain old OO.o
21:35:15 <bancus> UI is the worst place for java
21:35:15 <xavier> *** xavier has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:35:21 <bancus> unless it uses SWT
21:35:28 <bancus> even then it still sucks up copious amounts of ram
21:36:24 <candyman> jcowan, you an OSX user too?
21:36:34 <candyman> * candyman just uses it at friends' houses
21:38:14 <jcowan> Nope.
21:38:37 <jcowan> * jcowan is trying to find out how NeoOffice does what it does
21:38:49 <candyman> I convinced my ex-gf to install it a week ago
21:39:03 <candyman> did not use it long, but it did boot up and look good
21:40:16 <candyman> jcowan, do you mean do UI in java and be C or C++ under the hood?
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21:40:16 <Monty> lo ows
21:40:24 <candyman> is that "hwhat it does"?
21:40:46 <jcowan> Well, that too. But I was mostly curious about whether it is Swing or SWT or plain old AWT or what.
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21:41:16 <candyman> ah
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21:46:42 <Monty> bah, it's xavier again
21:55:05 <bjoern_> "Subject: We Are the Best Bjoern" -- You are not!
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21:55:43 <Arnia> Oh dear... TV with hyperlinks
21:56:05 <bjoern_> HyperTV...
21:56:16 <bjoern_> @metagoogle hypertv
21:56:16 <Arnia> Talking about the sun and general relativity (in this programme about light) and suddenly a link appeared in the top right corner saying 'Star guide'
21:56:18 <supybot> bjoern_: Search for "hypertv" returned approximately 887 results in 0.338439 seconds.
21:56:56 <jcowan> candyman: looks like NeoOffice/J uses a Cocoa-look-alike toolkit layered on plain AWT.
21:57:59 <candyman> is Cocoa the new, NeXT one, and Carbon the old, OS-9 like one?
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21:58:52 <crschmidt> Yes, candyman
22:06:38 <Arnia> Hehe... Christopher Lee acting as M R James
22:08:02 <candyman> there is a law that says that all Hammer actors will eventually work in Star War movies
22:08:18 <candyman> David Prowse, Lee, Cushing...
22:09:19 <candyman> maybe you can help me with a British TV series I loved as a kid
22:09:37 <xavier> *** xavier (~steve@roc-66-67-229-158.rochester.rr.com) has joined #swhack
22:09:48 <candyman> the main character is a policeman that has a hamster named Hamlet in a plastic ball running around his flat
22:10:08 <candyman> he often wears a t-shirt with a picture of shakespeare, and the legend "Will Power"
22:10:29 <candyman> some episodes featured a Russian (Soviet then) policeman that comes to the UK and needs help with a case
22:13:59 <Arnia> How long ago is this?
22:14:04 <candyman> 80s
22:14:24 <candyman> mid 80s in Spain, could be early 80s in the UK
22:19:37 <jcowan> I AM TEH JCOWAN, FLUBBER BUBBER DUBBER!
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22:20:31 <Morbus> *** Morbus has quit ("http://disobey.com/")
22:20:59 <candyman> that is a good exit
22:23:20 <Arnia> phenny, tell jcowan well done on that exit
22:23:22 <phenny> Arnia: I'll pass that on for you when jcowan is around.
22:23:27 <Arnia> thanks phenny
22:23:29 <phenny> You're welcome.
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22:26:24 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's dmiles_ne!
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22:56:36 <Arnia> Oh goodness -- http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/B/bogo-sort.html
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23:42:50 <Monty> hi xavier
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23:49:18 <crschmidt> Why don't you want to run into a pig who knows karate?
23:49:47 <crschmidt> He'll Pork Chop you.
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23:49:59 <Monty> hey xavier
23:50:08 <Arnia> Hmmmm
23:50:26 <d8uv> So a drunk walks into a bar and says, "This seems familiar."
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