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00:29:26 <crschmidt> sbp?
00:29:34 <jsled> pbs?
00:29:48 <crschmidt> eh.
00:29:55 <Morbus> bps?
00:30:18 <Morbus> NP: 'It Takes Two' from Rob Base & DJ EZ Rock's album 'Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Disc 2: Playback FM/Radio Los Santos'; Unrated; http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00068NWQ0/disobeycom/
00:30:39 <jsled> spb <- upside down.
00:30:47 <jsled> tee hee, bitches.
00:30:50 <Morbus> heh
00:30:59 <Morbus> * Morbus goes back to id3ing.
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00:33:02 <crschmidt> Trying to work out some python unicode stuff
00:34:58 <crschmidt> [[[
00:35:00 <Morbus> bah, i need a new hd.
00:35:00 <crschmidt> >>> print d['inbound'][3]['weblog']['name']
00:35:00 <crschmidt> Richard Newman ?>> holygoat.co.uk ?>> blog'
00:35:00 <crschmidt> >>> print type(d['inbound'][3]['weblog']['name'])
00:35:00 <crschmidt> <type 'str'>
00:35:03 <crschmidt> >>> unicode(d['inbound'][3]['weblog']['name'])
00:35:05 <crschmidt> Traceback (most recent call last): File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
00:35:08 <crschmidt> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc2 in position 15: ordinal not in range(128)
00:35:11 <crschmidt> >>>
00:35:13 <crschmidt> ]]]
00:35:15 <Morbus> only 20 gigs left on a 300
00:35:30 <crschmidt> I don't understand why i can't unicode the string.
00:35:34 <Morbus> if I knew python, i'd insert snarky comment here.
00:35:44 <crschmidt> You should learn it
00:36:21 <Morbus> i startd.
00:46:24 <jsled> What's in position 15?
00:46:53 <crschmidt> I want to convert "Richard Newman \xc2\xbb holygoat.co.uk \xc2\xbb blog'" to unicode
00:46:58 <crschmidt> er, to a unicode type
00:47:01 <crschmidt> rather than a string type
00:47:37 <Talliesin> crschmidt, Complete guess here, but does "'ascii' codec can't..." mean it's trying to re-encode ascii text into Unicode
00:47:45 <crschmidt> I don't know.
00:47:52 <Talliesin> Given that 0xc2 isn't defined in ascii
00:48:04 <Talliesin> maybe you need to somehow indicate the source encoding
00:48:09 <jsled> >>> unicode.__doc__
00:48:09 <jsled> "unicode(string [, encoding[, errors]]) -> object\n\nCreate a new Unicode object from the given encoded string.\nencoding defaults to the current default string encoding.\nerrors can be 'strict', 'replace' or 'ignore' and defaults to 'strict'."
00:48:27 <jsled> what encoding is it presently?
00:48:38 <crschmidt> I'm pretty sure it's utf-8
00:49:00 <Talliesin> Looks like utf-8. One sec
00:49:06 <jsled> jebus the gnumeric includes are all fucked.
00:49:15 <crschmidt> ah
00:49:17 <Talliesin> That's valid utf-8 alright
00:49:27 <crschmidt> Talliesin: something like >> ?
00:50:13 <Talliesin> »
00:50:22 <crschmidt> that
00:50:28 <crschmidt> thanks, i can't actually send unicode chars
00:50:55 <Talliesin> Frankly that's an abuse of »
00:51:22 <Talliesin> Which is a closing double angle quotation mark, such as is used in French
00:51:38 <Talliesin> → would probably be more appropriate
00:51:52 <crschmidt> hm
00:51:57 <crschmidt> that looks like a line with a point up at the end
00:52:16 <Talliesin> heh
00:52:20 <Talliesin> .pc →
00:52:23 <phenny> 2192: RIGHTWARDS ARROW (→)
00:53:11 <Talliesin> So, you need to either change the default string encoding, or change the use of the unicode function
00:53:43 <Talliesin> And unless the source encoding is always going to be utf-8 it's the latter, combined with some logic for detecting which encoding is used.
00:53:54 <crschmidt> It's always going to be utf-8
00:54:38 <Talliesin> That simplifies matters. Either change the default encoding or the unicode call.
00:54:51 <Talliesin> what is the encoding parameter, a string label or an object?
00:54:56 <crschmidt> Changed the unicode call, but now of course, the technorati api is dead agian
00:55:08 <Talliesin> >>> unicode(d['inbound'][3]['weblog']['name'], "utf-8")
00:55:11 <Talliesin> ?
00:55:39 <Talliesin> so the next step is highly robust caching?
00:55:46 <crschmidt> heh
00:55:52 <crschmidt> Or descriptive error handling ;)
00:56:15 <Talliesin> Depends on your needs for up-to-date accuracy.
00:56:45 <crschmidt> hm. weird. the data returned is null, but it shouldn't.
00:56:56 <Talliesin> Sometimes it does well to have your error handling work by treating the error response from the server as a NOT MODIFIED
00:57:11 <crschmidt> Yeah, but I've got small enough free space on my phone
00:57:19 <crschmidt> I don't need to take up more of it with technorati caching.
00:57:43 <Talliesin> Well I'm chuffed with my being able to help a little bit, given that I don't even know what language that is :)
00:58:06 <crschmidt> Heh
00:58:13 <crschmidt> Python
00:58:58 <Talliesin> I would have guessed that. But purely going on the fact that it was probably a language I hear mentioned but that I don't recognise.
00:59:18 <eaon> gnight everyone
00:59:45 <crschmidt> g'night.
00:59:52 <deltab> where does d come from?
00:59:56 <crschmidt> technorati
01:00:06 <crschmidt> From markp's pytechnorati code, specifically
01:00:12 <deltab> the dict, I mean
01:00:31 <crschmidt> d = getCosmos("http://crschmidt.net/blog/")
01:00:33 <deltab> ah, shouldn't it already decode the bytes then?
01:01:06 <crschmidt> I dunno. All I know is that when I print the list, it doesn't have little us in front of the strings, and strings without Us in front of them don't work on the phone
01:02:38 <Talliesin> Hmm. tAtU should get better translators. Compare:
01:02:45 <deltab> demand your money back
01:02:47 <Talliesin> "They're not going to get us, now that I love you" with;
01:03:01 <Talliesin> "The sky will pour darkness into our hands"
01:03:19 <Talliesin> The latter is the literal translation of the corresponding line in the Russian version.
01:03:33 <Morbus> heh, heh
01:03:33 <deltab> hehe, yeah
01:03:40 <Morbus> NP: 'The Payback' from James Brown's album 'Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Disc 3: Master Sounds 98.3'; Unrated; http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00068NWQ0/disobeycom/
01:03:53 <jsled> That's like the end of the American version of Fist of Legend.
01:04:08 <deltab> I have a comparison table of the original, translation, and English version
01:04:27 <Talliesin> That's actually a good line.
01:04:33 <jsled> The very end of the American version is "I'm going to go away with the girl."
01:04:52 <jsled> The end of the Chinese version is: "let's go on to fight the Japanese in the next town!"
01:05:02 <Talliesin> oops "The sky will pour the night into our hands"
01:05:15 <Talliesin> lol@jsled
01:05:31 <Talliesin> Celine only just heard about them coming out.
01:05:44 <Talliesin> She's disappointed.
01:05:48 <jsled> Like, Dion?
01:05:57 <Talliesin> Like my wife.
01:06:10 <jsled> you're married to Celine Dion?
01:06:24 <Morbus> lol
01:06:45 <Talliesin> I was disappointed too I suppose, but thinking about it. I was disappointed because they'd seemed like a sweet couple, but if they were that publicity would have ruined the relationship anyway.
01:07:05 <Talliesin> No, to one of the many other people called Celine.
01:07:23 <Morbus> * Morbus wanders back to iTunes.
01:08:32 <Talliesin> * Talliesin developed a fondness for tAtU simply because they pissed of people he liked pissing off, but the catchiness has since infected him.
01:08:53 <Morbus> i've a few of their albums.
01:08:58 <Morbus> which ones you've got? maybe we'll trade.
01:12:26 <Talliesin> I've 200kmh English version, dling russian version now.
01:12:34 <Talliesin> Didn't even know they had any others.
01:13:08 <Morbus> weird.
01:13:11 <Morbus> i thougth i had more than one.
01:13:15 <Morbus> i thought i had two albums and a single
01:13:20 <Morbus> nevermind. i only have the amerikkkan.
01:14:42 <Talliesin> ed2k://|file|TATU-200.po.Vstrecnoj.(2002).(Full.Album).%5BDamador%5D.Osloskop.rar|62591597|fd682a9fb0a0c070ec6ba05d4262b128|/ links to the russian version
01:18:19 <jsled> "All 700 employees of the electoral commission in Mosul reportedly resigned after being threatened." -- http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4702363,00.html
01:19:11 <jsled> [[[
01:19:21 <jsled> Farid Ayar, spokesman of the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq, could not confirm the Al-Jazeera report.
01:19:21 <jsled> ``We have been trying to contact our people in Mosul to see if the report is accurate but we have not been able to reach them,'' Ayar told The Associated Press.
01:19:22 <jsled> ]]]
01:22:16 <jsled> * jsled sighs
01:22:47 <xover> .w tesseract
01:22:49 <phenny> I couldn't find tesseract in WordNet.
01:22:53 <Talliesin> Thought: If everything was taught the same way as most programming courses teach programming you'd have to learn to light a fire first by rubbing sticks, then with flint and steel and finally with matches before those students that stuck the course would be shown how to turn on the central heating.
01:22:59 <xover> .gc tesseract
01:23:23 <xover> @metagoogle tesseract
01:23:25 <supybot> xover: Search for "tesseract" returned approximately 10700 results in 0.340411 seconds. Categories include "Top/Arts/Literature/Authors/L/L\'Engle, Madeleine" and "Top/Business/Management/Business Transformation/Guidance/Process Improvement".
01:23:36 <xover> @supybot++
01:23:43 <xover> @phenny--
01:24:19 <xover> phenny, tell sbp to inline .gc, will you?
01:24:21 <phenny> xover: I'll pass that on for you when sbp is around.
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02:05:39 <Talliesin> http://www2.b3ta.com/spidermanwillmakeyougay/ old but still funny
02:15:29 <jetscreamer> that's gay
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02:15:51 <jcowan> Swhack!
02:17:57 <crschmidt> jcowan!
02:18:30 <jcowan> crschmidt!
02:18:41 <jcowan> I like k's contribution to the topic
02:19:47 <jetscreamer> *** jetscreamer has quit ("-_- \o/ -_- r/l: an fpsmmorpg")
02:20:48 <jcowan> .g fpsmmorpg
02:20:51 <phenny> fpsmmorpg: http://www.the-dissidents.com/view_topic.php?div=bv&topic=606
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02:25:43 <Monty> it's jetscreamer!
02:26:26 <jetscreamer> Monty, bah humbug
02:26:28 <Monty> mkrisher: can recognize their phones.
02:30:24 <bjoern_> Monty, really?
02:30:29 <Monty> hehe, yeah that I'm chuffed with my little boy does though --- gotta let him condolences or work
02:30:48 <jcowan> The concept of Monty with a little boy is sick, sick, sick.
02:30:48 <Monty> Does talking about this bother you ?
02:30:53 <bjoern_> You've got a little boy Monty?
02:30:55 <Monty> In my opinion, kneecaps is ticklish?
02:31:11 <bjoern_> Monty, do you think that answers my question?
02:31:12 <Monty> Ah, that's gay
02:31:21 <bjoern_> Monty...
02:31:21 <Monty> cold
02:31:43 <bjoern_> Monty, you are cold?
02:31:45 <Monty> Was creating a Velociraptor at certain times
02:32:30 <bjoern_> That Velociraptor your little boy, Monty?
02:32:30 <Monty> Why are you concerned over my little boy ?
02:32:42 <bjoern_> Well, you brought that up, Monty...
02:32:42 <Monty> everyone
02:32:53 <jcowan> No, no, the velociraptor *ate* Monty's little boy.
02:32:53 <Monty> eh??
02:33:00 <jcowan> nyuk nyuk nyuk.
02:33:32 <bjoern_> This jcowan bot does not make much sense, don't you think Monty?
02:33:32 <Monty> You're not really talking about me... are you ?
02:33:42 <bjoern_> Monty, no, I am not...
02:33:43 <Monty> jellyfish loves bedroom!
02:34:16 <bjoern_> @metagoogle bedroom kills kitten
02:34:18 <supybot> bjoern_: Search for "bedroom kills kitten" returned approximately 2270 results in 0.214932 seconds.
02:41:01 <Arnia> *** Arnia (~jgeldart@host81-156-176-69.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #swhack
03:10:55 <kpreid> "Red spots have an uncanny way of looking like red spots." -- http://foothills.wjduquette.com/archives/000973.html
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03:11:31 <jcowan> "When you've seen one gamma-ray burst, you've seen one gamma-ray burst." --proverb of the high-energy astronomy community
03:12:34 <Arnia> I spent the afternoon in the pub with an astrophysicist...
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03:12:52 <jcowan> A hottie?
03:13:03 <Arnia> No. Old friend from school
03:13:29 <jcowan> * jcowan snaps fingers.
03:13:31 <Arnia> Not noted for his Trillian like qualities
03:14:40 <deltab> jcowan: who are you signalling for?
03:15:17 <deltab> do you have hottie astrophysicists waiting for your signal?
03:15:19 <crschmidt> hm. u"Richard Newman \xbb holygoat.co.uk \xbb blog'" <- is that right?
03:15:28 <crschmidt> that \xbb seems like it should be wrong to me
03:15:47 <bjoern_> .cp bb
03:15:50 <phenny> 00BB: RIGHT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK (»)
03:15:54 <phenny> 01BB: LATIN LETTER TWO WITH STROKE (ƻ)
03:15:58 <phenny> 02BB: MODIFIER LETTER TURNED COMMA (ʻ) [...]
03:16:01 <crschmidt> hm, okay.
03:16:09 <deltab> U+00BB RIGHT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK
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03:16:25 <jcowan> deltab: no, that was the finger-snap of disappointment.
03:16:37 <crschmidt> Anyone know anything about wxpython? :) (specifically, whether it supports unicode correctly)
03:17:24 <Arnia> Ugh... I need more water. Blood sugar running high
03:17:38 <jcowan> drink, drink, drink!
03:17:47 <jcowan> 8 glasses a day is yer only man!
03:18:46 <Arnia> Yes, quite.
03:19:04 <Arnia> Do two pints of bitter count?
03:19:49 <jcowan> * jcowan runs "units"
03:20:10 <jcowan> That's about half the requirement, yes.
03:20:11 <deltab> what about two pints of butter?
03:20:36 <jcowan> * jcowan cuts deltab's throat with a handy butter knife, slow and excruciating.
03:21:17 <deltab> * deltab shrugs it off
03:22:46 <crschmidt> tis but a scratch
03:23:14 <Arnia> * Arnia nukes deltab
03:24:36 <deltab> * deltab opens a comedy umbrella
03:24:46 <arconLap> *** arconLap has quit ("Leaving")
03:25:05 <deltab> result!
03:25:21 <Arnia> Is that an umbrella made out of the skin of Jimmy Tarbuck?
03:25:37 <Arnia> * Arnia reflects that in no way shape or form can such a thing be called 'comedic'
03:25:54 <deltab> so why ask?
03:26:26 <Arnia> Why not?
03:26:29 <deltab> no, I meant the tiny brolly as opened by e.g. Wile E. Coyote as a boulder descends on him
03:26:56 <Arnia> Ah... a slapstick umbrella :)
03:27:09 <Arnia> * Arnia hands deltab a particularly fine example in purple lace
03:28:08 <jcowan> * jcowan hands Arnia a particularly fine example in paisley.
03:29:15 <Arnia> I love that construction
03:29:51 <jcowan> * jcowan appreciates Arnia's particularly fine example of this construction.
03:30:42 <Arnia> I'm tempted to start a corpus of archaisms in British English
03:31:14 <jcowan> Of course American English is full of archaisms from the BE viewpoint.
03:31:21 <Arnia> I've found I use a lot of them (I still say 'smote' and 'whence' in normal usage for example)
03:31:35 <Arnia> I miss a case system
03:31:54 <Arnia> jcowan: Give English a case system like Latin or Russian
03:32:32 <kpreid> What's this construction?
03:32:33 <jcowan> Ic selle the that hors that dr eth mine wagen.
03:33:54 <Arnia> Ooh... just noted the cogsem significance of the construction
03:34:28 <Arnia> *brain not working fast today*
03:34:48 <jcowan> * jcowan doesn't get it now either.
03:35:11 <Arnia> Well, 'in <property>'
03:35:43 <jcowan> Yes, I grasp that. But what is the cognitive significance? It looks like a surface-y quirk to me.
03:35:49 <Arnia> It brings the property domain's underlying spatial repurposing right to the surface
03:36:28 <jcowan> But it seems to be backasswards.
03:37:00 <Arnia> Well, the spatial system is the oldest domain, borrowed from vision
03:37:01 <jcowan> Normally the property is in the property-bearer, not vice versa, no?
03:37:23 <Arnia> No... the properties get analysed as a space in the property domain.
03:37:47 <Arnia> Specific states correspond to points and boundaries within this space
03:38:00 <Arnia> "He was in love"
03:38:10 <Arnia> "The light went from red to green"
03:39:29 <Arnia> This allow a figure's properties to be manipulated using standard path expressions and co-events
03:41:07 <deltab> path expressions?
03:41:49 <deltab> not like XPath, OPath, E4X?
03:42:13 <jcowan> Sort of.
03:43:24 <Arnia> Topological expressions of a path within a space... often underspecified. Example path expressions (in English -- luckily for this English puts its path expressions in satellites unlike Romance languages where they're conflated into the verb) include 'to the beach', 'from the house toward to city', 'around the rock' etc
03:43:51 <jcowan> "imaginary journeys" as they are called in the Lojban grammar book.
03:43:53 <Arnia> Path expressions are defined relative to a 'cognitively stable' ground term
03:44:09 <jcowan> Typically the speaker, but not always.
03:44:22 <Arnia> No, the ground is usually NOT the speaker
03:44:32 <Arnia> 'to the rock' has 'the rock' as a ground term
03:44:41 <jcowan> Oh, sorry, I was thinking of the origin.
03:45:09 <Arnia> Yeah... deixis (I can never spell that word) is a bitch
03:45:09 <deltab> ah
03:45:48 <jcowan> Arnia: and then there's the other problem: pronouncing it.
03:46:10 <jcowan> Ladefoged's book on phonetics tells you everything about phonetics except what students really want to know:
03:46:18 <jcowan> viz. how to pronounced "Ladefoged".
03:46:45 <Arnia> *grins*
03:48:16 <jcowan> BTW, my emailectomy is almost complete. Down to maybe 20 non-spams a day.
03:48:51 <Arnia> English (and most indoeuropean languages) conflate the motion (the notions GO or STAY roughly) and co-event (manner, cause, force-dynamics etc) into the verb. For example; 'to run', 'to crawl', 'to pour' etc. Romance languages (such as Spanish) conflate the path with the motion in the verb and typically force the co-event to be a satellite. Some weird languages conflate the motion and *figure* into the verb :)
03:49:01 <Arnia> I never wish to try and learn such a language
03:49:21 <jcowan> Not as bad as Monster Raving Loony languages, though.
03:49:58 <Arnia> Yeah, but a language which has a verb affix which has (amongst other meanings) the meaning 'penis'... that's weird enough
03:50:25 <jcowan> You know about erg-abs vs. nom-acc distinction?
03:50:58 <Arnia> Well I know of it... I've never figured out what it really means, just that its important :)
03:51:07 <jcowan> Hokeypiggle.
03:51:27 <Arnia> Hokeypiggle?
03:51:47 <jcowan> Intransitive verbs just have one role, the subject (S). Transitive verbs have two roles, Agent (A) and Patient (P). We'll neglect the exceptions.
03:52:07 <jcowan> (A way of saying "okay" with reduplication, like "okey-dokey", but weirder.)
03:52:32 <Arnia> * Arnia gives jcowan a salad-salad for his trouble :p
03:52:46 <jcowan> In nominative-ergative languages like English, S and A are marked the same way (case ending, position, whatever). P is marked separately.
03:53:51 <Arnia> Nominative-ergative.... not nominative-accusative?
03:54:16 <jcowan> Arrgh. Nominative-accusative it is.
03:54:47 <Arnia> ok... prey, continue
03:54:49 <jcowan> In ergative-absolutive languages, A is marked separately (as ergative) and S and P share the absolutive marker. Again, this can be word order, case ending, particle, or what have you.
03:55:55 <Arnia> I find the notion of subject as a theta role of its own vexing :) It messes up something I was working on
03:56:34 <jcowan> This is a surface phenomenon, for the most part; S can be one of any number of roles.
03:56:40 <jcowan> But it has syntactic implications.
03:57:18 <Arnia> It has semantic implications too... bugger
03:57:27 <Arnia> * Arnia throws out an analysis
03:57:30 <jcowan> For example, morphological ergativity like I'm describing can lead to *syntactic* ergativity, in which "John touched James and blushed" means that James, rather than John, blushed.
03:59:40 <Arnia> Hmm... right. At last I know what it means to say a language is ergative/absolutive :)
03:59:55 <jcowan> Not all morph. erg. languages are syntactically ergative.
04:00:21 <jcowan> And ergativity is often inconsistent. Indic languages are ergative in some verb aspects but not others.
04:00:36 <jcowan> Chinese, syntactically, is neither ergative nor accusative:
04:00:37 <Arnia> Does English have any ergative borrowings?
04:00:41 <jcowan> -ee.
04:01:24 <jcowan> The ending -ee makes an absolutive noun: when applied to a transitive verb like "employ" it labels the P, when applied to an intransitive one like "(be) absent" it labels the S.
04:02:51 <Arnia> Where does the term 'ergative' come from?
04:04:25 <jcowan> Greek hrgates, worker; same as "erg" and "energy".
04:05:21 <Arnia> Had a feeling that would be the case... so the active one more or less
04:05:27 <jcowan> Yeah.
04:06:49 <jcowan> Chinese, as I was saying, has no trouble with either "John dropped the watermelon and burst" (syntactically ergative) or "John dropped the watermelon and was embarrassed" (syntactically accusative). What's more, sinophones have trouble believing that we anglophone victims of Whorfian mind-lock can't swallow the former, since it makes obvious sense to them!
04:11:53 <jcowan> In any case, not all languages are neatly nom-acc or erg-abs.
04:12:18 <jcowan> There are split-S languages, in which some intransitive verbs take the P marking, others the A marking, usually based roughly on their semantics.
04:12:39 <jcowan> And there are fluid-S languages, in which some intr. verbs can take either P or A marking depending on semantics.
04:13:01 <jcowan> And there are Monster Raving Loony languages (where I started), in which the same marking is used for P and for A, and it's S that is marked separately!
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04:13:09 <jcowan> Man bites dog, or does he?
04:14:22 <Arnia> What's the frequency of ergativity?
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04:15:14 <jcowan> Monty, tell Arnia I don't have exact figures, but ergative features are not rare. *Complete* ergativity, as in Basque and certain Australian languages, *is* rare.
04:15:15 <Monty> jcowan: Okay, I'll tell Arnia that next time I see them...
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04:18:30 <Monty> Hey Arnia, jcowan asked me to tell you: I don't have exact figures, but ergative features are not rare. *Complete* ergativity, as in Basque and certain Australian languages, *is* rare. [Fri Dec 31 04:11:50 GMT 2004]
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04:40:10 <Monty> bah, it's dydimustk again
04:40:17 <jcowan> bah, it's Monty again.
04:40:17 <Monty> hello
04:40:27 <jcowan> bah, it's jcowan again.
04:40:48 <jcowan> @echo phenny, tell monty to tell phenny to tell monty.
04:40:48 <Monty> dig dug ;)
04:40:49 <supybot> phenny, tell monty to tell phenny to tell monty.
04:40:50 <Monty> kisses noisy clumsy overture ;)
04:40:51 <phenny> supybot: I'll pass that on for you when monty is around.
04:40:52 <supybot> phenny: Error: "I'll" is not a valid command.
04:40:53 <phenny> Monty: 04:40Z <supybot> tell Monty to tell phenny to tell monty.
04:40:53 <Monty> naw.
04:40:56 <Monty> heh is interesting, but minicom is just... easier to convert "Richard Newman \xbb holygoat.co.uk ?>> blog'
04:41:54 <Arnia> Yay... its great when ideas just occur :)
04:42:38 <jcowan> Yeah, one line of input, eight lines of bot response.
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04:44:18 <Arnia> :) I'm tempted to give Monty a proper grammar
04:44:20 <Monty> new memories scrapes megalithic Gtk.
04:44:32 <jcowan> Yeah, I remember you mentioning that.
04:45:10 <Arnia> I might do it this July as a practice for writing link grammar parsers...
04:45:25 <Arnia> If I could write a link grammar generator I'd be very chuffed :p
04:46:13 <jcowan> * jcowan consults english2american.com
04:46:44 <jcowan> Oho.
04:46:44 <jcowan> Agreed.
04:47:01 <Arnia> Probably use a variant on shake-and-bake bag generation
04:47:22 <Arnia> * Arnia snickers at the names of these algorithms
04:47:29 <jcowan> The trick is that the generator has to know something about weighting, or most of the sentences come out wayy too complicated.
04:48:17 <Arnia> Maximal tiling (ala FUF/SURGE)
04:49:40 <Arnia> You start from the FOCUS/NEWINF concept and search for a solution with the smallest number of lexemes.
04:50:21 <Arnia> The advantage of maximal tiling approaches to lexical choice (when coupled with late choice) is that they generate quite natural idiomatic expressions
04:54:11 <Arnia> The problem I see is that whilst you can parse an expression in cubic time in link grammar, your generation process is going to probably be NP complete unless you can find a way to constrain the branching
04:55:15 <jcowan> Exactly my point. If you generate with an ATN with weights on the links and a random number generator, you can do quite well, though.
04:55:25 <jcowan> Of course, you have to pick the weights cleverlhy.
04:56:04 <Arnia> Yes... and I don't like such cosmic fine tuning. Plus I want to demonstrate that link grammar is reversible (cos I need it to be so for part of my doctoral research)
04:56:23 <jcowan> Oh-oh.
04:57:52 <Arnia> The actual theory of syntax isn't important... what's important is being able to parse and understand (semantically) an utterance in less than a second
04:58:11 <jcowan> * jcowan thinks people understand first, parse afterwards.
04:59:12 <Arnia> Link grammars are good for that atm for three reasons: They're fast (time cubic in the length of the utterance), they're robust (they can infer a lot about a word that it doesn't know yet and generate a good parse with bad data) and they're easy to engineer (which is important for the application I want to put them too)
05:00:51 <Arnia> Put them to...
05:01:05 <Arnia> * Arnia curses poor his today syntax
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05:13:01 <jcowan> * jcowan is frequently annoyed that tab-completion isn't a proper DWIM. In particular, "ftp pub<TAB>" doesn't work for "ftp publish", dammit.
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05:14:09 <Arnia> jcowan: Shells aren't that smart... one day
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05:15:02 <jcowan> The Tenex/Twenex shell was, because as soon as you typed "ftp<sp>" it started the ftp program, which then passed a table of dwimifications to the shell via an API.
05:15:10 <jcowan> eheu fugaces!
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05:17:52 <Arnia> * Arnia adds that to his list of research elements
05:18:06 <Arnia> I think I can bring that into the TODO list of Frege
05:18:32 <Arnia> (which would be very cool... using ontological reasoning on the command line)
05:20:01 <jcowan> The downside was that the tenex shell (which is what the "t" in "tcsh" stands for) was not readily replaceable, because applications were interwoven with its way of doing things.
05:21:29 <Arnia> But if we could get applications to put that information into a general RDF store...
05:21:54 <Arnia> (which is doable... especially in the current Gnome philosophy of 'get it right for the users or its a bug')
05:22:54 <Arnia> If I manage to sell Frege to the community, then having appropriate RDF descriptions of your software could be seen as essential to getting it right as using GConf for preferences is seen atm
05:23:18 <jcowan> Linda could be a good platform for RDF operations.
05:24:01 <Arnia> Could be... but its over-engineered (something which I've been very careful about). I am basically using DBUS to do a linda-like thing
05:24:22 <Arnia> You just assert bundles of triples over the DBUS
05:25:04 <jcowan> Oh, Frege is the name of software? I thought by "Frege" you meant "Frege's ideas"!
05:25:37 <Arnia> No :)
05:25:44 <Arnia> ^website Overview of Frege
05:25:44 <julie> http://www.netalleynetworks.com/community/jgeldart/research/frege/
05:26:09 <Arnia> shit... haven't fixed the tarball :/
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05:40:10 <Arnia> Anyway... the idea is to make it easy for coders to use shared RDF information in their applications. This involves making a lightweight common RDF storage and idiomatic bindings for programming languages to allow querying, reasoning and the reflection of a language's data structures into RDF graphs of a given ontology/schema
05:41:15 <jcowan> * jcowan is reading the Frege page in between interruptions on other channels.
05:41:27 <Arnia> cool
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06:03:00 <jcowan> * jcowan finishes.
06:03:30 <jcowan> A bit short on overview, Arnia. I don't get a sense of what Frege actually does, besides "the Right Thing".
06:04:13 <Arnia> Yeah, I wrote that as a filler for the time-being. Its going to be substantially revised as soon as I have time
06:04:35 <jcowan> Okay.
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06:05:11 <Arnia> Do you understand my description of what it does here though?
06:05:25 <jcowan> * jcowan rereads his backscroll
06:06:54 <jcowan> Well, no.
06:07:49 <Arnia> One of the major problems of desktops at the moment is the lack of continuity.
06:08:32 <Arnia> Each piece of data is an island... procedural code (applications) can be defined that link a few of these islands but its all very rigid
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06:10:31 <Arnia> This is an issue because of the sheer quantity of information that we have... and being humans (and thus classifiers par excellance) we expect a stronger notion of 'type' than MIME types and procedural code can provide... we want machines to be able to classify (and thus know what to do with) our data
06:11:04 <Arnia> Frege's aim is to address this by giving application developers the ability to use a single, common RDF store. One graph to rule them all sort of thing.
06:12:34 <jcowan> The trouble I see is the same trouble Smalltalk etc. has with its system image: it's hard to transport parts of it, because the RDF triples, though theoretically independent, will in practice make sense only in the presence of other RDF triples. So it will be hard to transport stuff from my store to yours.
06:12:52 <Arnia> You're not meant to do store transport like that
06:12:59 <Arnia> Its meant to be a 'user graph'
06:13:41 <jcowan> Then how do I do the equivalent of sending you a spreadsheet/database/document I've created, if it's all just a pile of RDF triples in my store?
06:14:16 <Arnia> I'm not proposing to turn EVERYTHING into triples... but rather allow reflection to and from legacy formats
06:14:31 <Arnia> This is a vital part of Frege... it doesn't try and take over
06:14:44 <jcowan> Ah.
06:14:50 <Arnia> Applications can use it when it makes sense and legacy applications can still work
06:15:19 <Arnia> (and there are means to define context... I've been working on a 'security and permissions' sharing ontology which coupled with concise-bounded descriptions allows applications to determine which triples to embed in the legacy representation)
06:18:50 <Arnia> An interesting application to make 'frege-aware' would be Beagle. By integrating a triple-scraper into the Beagle indexing process, the Frege graph will immediately gain all the RDF embedded in files on the filesystem (whether in XML files or in formats like Adobe's XMP or even in extended attribites ala Reiser4)
06:19:51 <Arnia> Since Beagle uses inotify, it would also be a good place to add the code that updates the graph when files move or are deleted
06:20:02 <jcowan> Excellent idea.
06:20:18 <Arnia> To be honest, I don't see Frege existing on its own for long beyond my dissertation
06:20:26 <Arnia> I want to roll it into Beagle proper
06:21:03 <jcowan> Does Beagle export an API?
06:21:08 <Arnia> Yes... over DBUS
06:21:31 <Arnia> (so that any application can use Beagle as the search mechanism)
06:21:35 <jcowan> Ah.
06:22:00 <Arnia> I want to add a better notion of 'context' and reification too
06:22:25 <Arnia> I've realised that just adding a context URI to statements isn't sufficient
06:23:41 <jcowan> Topic maps have some useful ideas here.
06:23:47 <Arnia> The fourth element of a statement needs to be a dictionary mapping URIs to 'qualities' which include such notions as 'trust', 'certainty' and quite a few others
06:24:10 <Arnia> These URIs can then be referenced in 'fuzzy ontologies' and defined precisely
06:25:16 <Arnia> Most of these 'qualities' have analogues in the neurochemistry of the brain. They're important in order to reduce the amount of work a reasoner has to do as a means of pruning the search space
06:26:43 <jcowan> True. Do look at some of the topic maps materials. They come from the problem of indexing (as in the kind in the back of books), and have some useful ideas.
06:27:15 <Arnia> I intend to... but I still think the RDF data model should be preserved
06:27:37 <Arnia> These 'qualities' should be computed by the system itself rather than transmitted explicitly
06:27:57 <Arnia> (although ontologies will explicitly reference them...)
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06:30:13 <jcowan> Arnia: I think it'll be no problem incorporating the relevant ideas from TM into RDF.
06:30:25 <jcowan> Anyhow, gotta bail: 1:30 AM here.
06:30:31 <Arnia> Yeah. Ok. Speak soon
06:30:43 <jcowan> I AM TEH JCOWAN, MASTUR OF RFD AND TOPIX MAPX!
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07:11:49 <dmwaters> {global notice} Hi all! that split was the scheduled outage that was listed on the news page a couple of days ago. Things appear to be looking good. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
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07:55:42 <Monty> bah, it's bancus again
07:56:08 <bancus> bah, it's monty again
07:56:09 <Monty> clipping?
07:56:16 <bancus> indeed, monty
07:56:17 <Monty> hmm, probably troo
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08:06:03 <MoiraA> morning
08:06:57 <Arnia> Morn
08:10:21 <bancus> heh
08:10:28 <bancus> midnight here, but mornin neveretheless
08:24:57 <Arnia> * Arnia meeps
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09:18:20 <Monty> welcome, mattis
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13:10:17 <Talliesin> .ety orc
13:10:23 <phenny> orc: no etymology found
13:13:02 <JibberJim> .ety elf
13:13:04 <phenny> elf: Middle English, from Old English ælf; akin to Old Norse alfr elf & perhaps to Latin albus white -- more at ALB
13:13:14 <kandinski> Extended Linux Filesomething
13:13:19 <kandinski> you at work today, Jim?
13:14:30 <JibberJim> ype
13:15:29 <kandinski> think we could have a quick one around 5.3=?
13:15:33 <kandinski> 5:30?
13:17:27 <JibberJim> Sorry, be heading off home long before that, gotta be somewhere by 7...
13:17:56 <kandinski> ok, will call you some other time
13:19:27 <Talliesin> Apparantly in Tolkien's use Orc < Orc-néas from Beowulf
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13:51:41 <Monty> Thank goodness, mattis_ is back!
13:51:44 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
13:51:48 <Monty> edit mode, since I knew enough tivohours to easily build a modified version.
13:58:03 <bjoern_> modified version of what, Monty?
13:58:04 <Monty> imagery == Toki-Meki-Memorial;
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14:00:01 <Morbus> *** Morbus has changed the topic to: <jcowan> ICH BIN DER JCOWAN, DER GEIST DER STETS BEJAHT || <kandinski> ICH BIN DER KANDINSKI, WO SIND MEINE HOSEN? || 1 more day until Xenosaga II Pre-order (EB shipment Tuesday STOP Perhaps Pre-order DVD? STOP) || <+Monty> Please do not adore noisy bombs >:)
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14:11:46 <xover> kandinski: ITYM «Executable and Linking Format»
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14:14:33 <xover> Perhaps you were thinking of “ext”, which is indeed the «Extended [Linux] Filesystem»; in original, 2nd, and 3rd versions for “ext”, “ext2”, and “ext3”.
14:21:16 <xover> “ELF” there would be as opposed to “COFF” — the «Common Object File Format» — on Linux and *BSD systems, “PE COFF” — «Portable Executable COFF» — on Win32, and “CFM” — «Code Fragment Manager» — or “Mach-O” on Mac OS (X).
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14:47:31 <Morbus> --> Big_Sexxy (~MR@67.66.33.251) has joined #apache
14:47:31 <Morbus> <Morbus> otherwise, try "apachectl restart"
14:47:31 <Morbus> <Morbus> hey Big_Sexxy, I was just talking about you.
14:47:31 <Morbus> <Morbus> only "you" was replaced with "my penis"
14:51:25 <xover> Hmmm. Any ardent Wikipedians hanging in #swhack?
14:56:35 <Morbus> i run the wikipedia software, but not really a contributor, no.
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14:57:36 <xover> I just have a vague premonition that I'll get sucked into it in the near future and wanted to find someone to bug when the time comes. :-)
14:57:48 <Morbus> heh
14:58:40 <Morbus> i only know one or two folks in #wikipedia.
14:58:49 <Morbus> KevinMarks from #joiito, and LoRez from #apache
14:59:27 <xover> No overlap with #swhack and #wikipedia then?
14:59:48 <Morbus> not that i saw on a quick peek.
15:01:11 <xover> Then again, having just finished «The Da Vinci Code» in one sitting, I may manage to distract myself by diving into the Prieure de Sion, Knights Templar, and the Merovingians. :-)
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15:21:53 <sbp> whee: http://www.crystalinks.com/templars5.html
15:21:56 <phenny> sbp: 01:24Z <xover> tell sbp to inline .gc, will you?
15:22:19 <sbp> manages to mention Rennes-le-Chateau, the Oak Island Money Pit, and Rosslyn Chapel all in one go
15:22:27 <Morbus> sbp!
15:22:30 <xover> Yup. But it seems limited and somewhat confused; a mish-mash of different, sometimes conflicting, sources.
15:22:38 <xover> Right.
15:22:40 <Morbus> found forteana and fantasticreality on yahogroups the other day. seem good.
15:22:46 <Morbus> got into forteana this mornign
15:22:54 <sbp> didn't Graham Hancock almost single-handedly reignite this field?
15:22:59 <sbp> cool
15:23:00 <Morbus> its funny how /all/ these lists seem to be "member requires approval"
15:23:12 <sbp> I expect they get a lot of UFO nutjobs
15:23:22 <Morbus> and skeptic bashers.
15:23:25 <Morbus> JUST HELIEBVE.
15:23:28 <sbp> heh, heh
15:23:28 <Morbus> I LVOE FOIX MONDYUELR.
15:23:36 <Morbus> wow, that wsa supposed to be fox mulder.
15:23:40 <sbp> it was good
15:23:57 <sbp> MONDYUELRBUS
15:24:23 <sbp> I've been thinking about implementing gc under .gcount in phenny
15:24:49 <sbp> what say ye, bully xover?
15:25:14 <xover> .ety bully
15:25:17 <phenny> bully: probably modification of Dutch boel lover, from Middle High German buole
15:25:53 <sbp> 2. A brisk, dashing fellow. [Slang Obs.] --Shak.
15:26:05 <xover> Nah. .gc is better; .mg (metagoogle) if you're desperate.
15:26:10 <sbp> fun how it's done lover -> dashing -> swaggering
15:26:20 <sbp> no .gc because of xena conflicts
15:26:29 <sbp> she'll be up again some time in the new year
15:26:39 <sbp> mg is alright
15:26:57 <xover> So? She's silenced in #swhack anyways.
15:27:07 <sbp> xena and phenny coinhabit many channels
15:27:36 <Morbus> [[[
15:27:36 <Morbus> <Morbus> but, yes, multiviews allows neatness with content negotiation.
15:27:36 <Morbus> <Morbus> you never have to use extensions in URLs, which allows you to change your backend without fear of linkrot (ie., about.php and about.html and about.shtml)
15:27:36 <Morbus> --> goa (goa@gate-hannes-tdsl.imos.net) has joined #apache
15:27:36 <Morbus> <Rivest> i see
15:27:37 <Morbus> <Morbus> do you? do you really?
15:27:40 <Morbus> <Morbus> .. . ..
15:27:41 <Morbus> * Morbus ' lower lip quivers.
15:27:44 <Morbus> <Morbus> i think i'm in love!
15:27:52 <Morbus> ]]]
15:27:54 <jsled> heh
15:28:03 <xover> Oh alright then. .mg it is.
15:28:09 <sbp> part of the incipient rationale behind phenny was that she shouldn't repeat the mistakes of datum--datum overlapping xena quite a lot
15:28:34 <sbp> * sbp wonders if he'll get used to "mg" before "2005"
15:28:35 <xover> Have her autokick xena whenever she joins a channel? :-)
15:28:38 <sbp> hehe
15:29:01 <sbp> you have to wonder what innocent bystanders such as goa make of it
15:29:24 <xover> Bah! Google Scholar is being depressively unhelpful on the topic of the Priory of Sion.
15:29:47 <sbp> the URI I found was no good? :-)
15:30:33 <sbp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion
15:30:56 <Morbus> oh, you didn't "find" that URI.
15:31:07 <Morbus> you just fucking typed it in at wikipedia.
15:31:08 <Morbus> cheater.
15:31:12 <Morbus> .wp satan
15:31:20 <Morbus> oh, we need a .wp to get a wikipedia search.
15:31:29 <Morbus> i've been using firefox keywords waaay to much lately
15:31:34 <xover> crystallinks seems somewhat confused, yeah.
15:32:33 <sbp> @wikipedia blargh
15:32:34 <supybot> sbp: Error: "wikipedia" is not a valid command.
15:32:59 <sbp> @alias wikipedia echo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$1
15:33:00 <supybot> sbp: (alias <command> [<args> ...]) -- Command dispatcher for the Alias plugin. Use 'list Alias' to see the commands provided by this plugin. Use 'config list plugins.Alias' to see the configuration values for this plugin. In most cases this dispatcher command is unnecessary; in cases where more than one plugin defines a given command, use this command to tell the bot which plugin's (1 more message)
15:33:11 <sbp> @alias wikipedia [echo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$1]
15:33:12 <supybot> (alias <command> [<args> ...]) -- Command dispatcher for the Alias plugin. Use 'list Alias' to see the commands provided by this plugin. Use 'config list plugins.Alias' to see the configuration values for this plugin. In most cases this dispatcher command is unnecessary; in cases where more than one plugin defines a given command, use this command to tell the bot which plugin's (1 more message)
15:33:21 <sbp> ...
15:35:54 <valmont> *** valmont has quit ()
15:36:56 <arcon> *** arcon has quit ("Leaving")
15:44:57 <xover> But judging by this picture of Da Vinci's «Last Supper», several of the alleged “hidden” things are more-or-less-clearly present; including a suspiciously female-looking Disciple and a hand holding what may be a dagger but with no apparent owner.
15:46:04 <crschmidt> oh, sbp
15:46:09 <xover> Apparently, Da Vinci may be a better food for the imagination than I knew. :-)
15:46:14 <crschmidt> ^addturtle [a foaf:Person].
15:46:15 <julie> Model size increased by 1 to 1322664 via turtle statements.
15:46:35 <jsled> cool.
15:49:52 <xover> Then again, «The Virgin on the Rocks» does not quite seem to bear Dan Brown's conspiratorial exposition.
15:50:29 <sbp> ooh, nice
15:52:14 <sbp> uploading new phenny
15:52:41 <xover> phenny, quick, hide! He's replacing you with a clone!
15:53:08 <sbp> she's used to it
15:54:33 <phenny> *** phenny has quit (Remote closed the connection)
15:54:45 <phenny> *** phenny (sbp@vorpal.notabug.com) has joined #swhack
15:54:52 <themaximus_> *** themaximus_ is now known as themaximus
15:54:55 <sbp> hi phenny
15:55:13 <JibberJim> damn too slow for the Oh My God, you killed phenny! line...
15:55:14 <phenny> hi sbp
15:55:15 <atariboy> *** atariboy has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:55:17 <xover> phenny? You alright luv?
15:55:18 <sbp> heh
15:55:23 <sbp> .mg something
15:55:24 <phenny> something: 163,000,000
15:55:28 <sbp> .mg blargh
15:55:28 <crschmidt> .mg crschmidt
15:55:28 <phenny> crschmidt: 27,800
15:55:28 <phenny> blargh: 52,100
15:55:33 <sbp> .mg site:inamidst.com blargh
15:55:33 <phenny> site:inamidst.com blargh: 16
15:55:34 <crschmidt> much quicker
15:55:39 <sbp> good, innit?
15:55:43 <sbp> .gcount works too
15:55:44 <crschmidt> yeah
15:55:44 <JibberJim> .mg site:jibbering.com
15:55:44 <phenny> works too: 24,000,000
15:55:45 <phenny> site:jibbering.com: 1,830
15:55:48 <atariboy> *** atariboy (~atari@203.142.136.122) has joined #swhack
15:55:55 <crschmidt> .mg site:crschmidt.net
15:55:55 <phenny> site:crschmidt.net: 16,100
15:55:57 <sbp> .mg "this is sic"
15:55:58 <phenny> "this is sic": 480
15:56:04 <sbp> .mg this is sic
15:56:05 <phenny> this is sic: 11,400,000
15:56:07 <crschmidt> .mg site:crschmidt.livejournal.com
15:56:08 <phenny> site:crschmidt.livejournal.com: 400
15:56:09 <JibberJim> whoa, that's a lot of page crschmidt...
15:56:12 <bjoern_> .mg phenny .mg
15:56:13 <phenny> phenny .mg: 20
15:56:14 <xover> No @google fight?
15:56:20 <sbp> .raw blargh
15:56:25 <sbp> nope
15:56:28 <sbp> .repres blargh
15:56:28 <phenny> 'blargh'
15:56:39 <sbp> oh, colour strip must do bold too
15:56:47 <sbp> .cp interrobang
15:56:48 <phenny> 203D: INTERROBANG (‽)
15:56:53 <sbp> .repres ‽
15:56:53 <phenny> '\xe2\x80\xbd'
15:57:13 <crschmidt> is that just repr() ?
15:57:16 <sbp> yeah
15:57:18 <xover> Prefix match commands?
15:57:23 <crschmidt> .repres \xbb
15:57:23 <phenny> '\\xbb'
15:57:35 <sbp> prefix match?
15:57:40 <crschmidt> .repres ?
15:57:40 <phenny> '?'
15:57:43 <crschmidt> darn
15:57:46 <sbp> heh
15:57:49 <xover> .r|.rep|.repr|.repres
15:58:06 <sbp> oh. too big a chance of collisions
15:58:12 <sbp> good idea though
15:58:34 <xover> Probably 100% chance of collisions. So?
15:58:36 <sbp> (with other bots, that is: namely, xena. e.g. .w)
15:58:45 <xover> Oh, like that.
15:58:52 <xover> @OtherBots--
15:59:20 <sbp> yeah...
16:00:33 <bjoern_> @karma
16:00:34 <supybot> bjoern_: Highest karma: "sbp" (12), "crschmidt" (4), and "jcowan" (3). Lowest karma: "supybot" (-10), "sh1mmer" (-3), and "swhacker" (-2). You (bjoern_) are ranked 11 out of 44.
16:02:13 <xover> @karma supybot
16:02:15 <supybot> xover: Karma for "supybot" has been increased 3 times and decreased 13 times for a total karma of -10.
16:02:18 <jetscreamer> @karma
16:02:24 <supybot> jetscreamer: Error: TypeError: unsubscriptable object
16:02:27 <jetscreamer> yeah
16:02:34 <xover> @supybot--
16:02:38 <jetscreamer> i'm good at breaking things
16:04:18 <jetscreamer> @karma jetscreamer
16:04:23 <supybot> jetscreamer: Error: TypeError: argument 2 to map() must support iteration
16:04:31 <sbp> heheh
16:04:36 <sbp> supybot really sucks
16:04:41 <supybot> sbp: Error: "really" is not a valid command.
16:04:47 <xover> @supybot--
16:05:22 <jetscreamer> @config karma
16:05:22 <supybot> jetscreamer: Error: 'supybot.karma' is not a valid configuration variable.
16:05:31 <xover> * xover wonders whether jemfinch ever checks supybot's karma...
16:05:55 <sbp> probably doesn't dare
16:08:41 <crschmidt> sbp: lost phenny in #the_commune, #julie
16:09:01 <sbp> there you go
16:09:05 <sbp> er
16:09:15 <sbp> now there you go
16:09:23 <crschmidt> thanks
16:09:26 <sbp> np
16:09:37 <crschmidt> there's nothing like julie's ^join that i can do, is there?
16:09:50 <sbp> nope. unlike her, phenny authenticates people :-)
16:10:05 <sbp> btw, can anyone do bye bye bot at julie? it looks like it from the source
16:10:16 <crschmidt> yeah, they can
16:10:21 <sbp> ouch
16:11:00 <crschmidt> julie is like a wiki. she's in good shape so long as people don't abuse her. once people start to, I have to start going on authentication and shit
16:11:09 <sbp> yep
16:11:19 <sbp> phenny is like a train station
16:11:43 <crschmidt> for example, ash can't make her join channels
16:11:54 <crschmidt> (although that code may have bitrotted away with the rewrite from nicoc)
16:12:17 <crschmidt> because he got me klined by having her join some bot-net autokline channel
16:12:22 <sbp> I remember
16:12:44 <sbp> there's some Ash-thwarting code in phenny too
16:19:37 <jetscreamer> who is ash, some wannabe nemisis?
16:20:58 <sbp> a guy we know
16:21:16 <sbp> an early Swhacker
16:23:16 <valmont> *** valmont (~chrisholl@bdsl.66.13.152.74.gte.net) has joined #swhack
16:23:16 <Monty> Thank goodness, valmont is back!
16:23:17 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
16:23:19 <Monty> http://www.disobey.com/dnn/2003/05/index.shtml#001496
16:23:26 <jetscreamer> lol
16:23:57 <Morbus> ahahahah
16:24:14 <sbp> even Monty's not sure if you have a mullet or not. (you don't!)
16:24:15 <Monty> will they market it with grave
16:25:03 <Morbus> [[[
16:25:04 <Morbus> MAIMONIDES MANUSCRIPTS ONLINE
16:25:04 <Morbus> To mark the 800th anniversary of the death of medieval Jewish
16:25:04 <Morbus> philosopher Moses Maimonides, a number of his manuscripts and
16:25:04 <Morbus> rare early editions of his works have been digitized and made
16:25:04 <Morbus> available online by the Jewish National and University Library
16:25:06 <Morbus> in Jerusalem, Israel.
16:25:11 <Morbus> < http://www.jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/mss/html/rambam_l.htm >
16:25:12 <Morbus> ]]]
16:26:08 <Morbus> bah, proprietary format.
16:26:37 <Arnia> *** Arnia (~jgeldart@host81-156-176-69.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #swhack
16:27:03 <Morbus> got linux drivers.
16:29:42 <Morbus> * Morbus tries.
16:30:17 <Morbus> wott
16:30:18 <Morbus> arrrgh
16:30:19 <Morbus> goddamit.
16:30:23 <Morbus> i don't read arabic.
16:30:25 <Morbus> all that work for nothing.
16:30:40 <sbp> I must just say, that was a bit of a bizarre outburst :-)
16:30:56 <sbp> <Morbus> historic Jewish manuscripts online! woot!
16:31:01 <sbp> <Morbus> argh, they're in PDF!
16:31:08 <sbp> <Morbus> argh, they're in Arabic!
16:31:12 <Morbus> hehehe.
16:31:14 <Morbus> not even pdf.
16:31:17 <Morbus> djvu.
16:31:17 <sbp> (also: did you mean Hebrew?)
16:31:19 <sbp> ew
16:31:34 <sbp> <Morbus> argh, the PDF turned out to be DJVU!
16:31:36 <Morbus> it was not a bizarre outburst! <g>
16:31:42 <sbp> <Morbus> argh, the Arabic turned out to be Hebrew!
16:31:48 <sbp> well, not bizarre for you, no
16:32:17 <Morbus> and its arabic written in hebrew letters
16:32:55 <sbp> scary
16:33:02 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:33:06 <Morbus> well, now i can view djvu documents.
16:33:08 <Morbus> how fun.
16:33:13 <Morbus> if i use that one more time in my life, i'll be surprised
16:33:15 <sbp> some people think the Voynich Manuscript may be an eastern language written in a nonce alphabet
16:33:30 <sbp> I installed it once to view some old Encyclopaedia
16:36:15 <Morbus> monty, remind me in 77 hours to send out an email for ghyll.
16:36:16 <Monty> Morbus: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Mon Jan 03 21:32:44 GMT 2005
16:37:06 <valmont> *** valmont is now known as blechblech
16:37:47 <DrBacchus> *** DrBacchus (~rbowen@198-93-112-61.xdsl.qx.net) has joined #swhack
16:39:19 <Morbus> sup drb.
16:39:59 <jetscreamer> it's apt-gettable
16:40:05 <jetscreamer> can't be all bad
16:41:04 <crschmidt> * crschmidt kills firefox, clears up 300 mb ram
16:42:05 <Morbus> sbp: http://www.benhammersley.com/weblog/2004/12/30/crossposter_for_movable_type.html
16:42:15 <Morbus> jetscreamer: there was an rpm for fedora. installed it, didn't work with fedora.
16:42:21 <Morbus> had to manually symlink the plugin.
16:42:30 <Morbus> sbp: comments.
16:42:46 <sbp> comments on Hammersley's thing?
16:43:14 <sbp> well I wonder about crossposting sometimes. for example, it'd be nice to announce some of my things on miscoranda, DNN, d8uv.com, swhackit!, and swig-chump...
16:43:20 <sbp> but on second thoughts, it's rude :-)
16:43:34 <sbp> Hammersley can go ahead and be rude if he wants. IS FINE BY ME
16:43:59 <sbp> I guess he has more control over the blogs he posts to, so that's okay
16:45:09 <JibberJim> *** JibberJim (~none@82-43-209-8.cable.ubr10.newm.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
16:45:19 <Morbus> i think he was aggregating stuff he wrote to his blog.
16:45:22 <Morbus> not the other way around.
16:45:26 <Morbus> going inward, not outward.
16:45:29 <Morbus> which is what my script does too.
16:46:03 <sbp> ohh, I see
16:46:09 <sbp> which script would that be?
16:46:16 <Morbus> its linked in the first comment.
16:46:20 <Morbus> and refresh. i just added another comment <G>
16:48:05 <sbp> oh, *comments*
16:48:22 <Morbus> how many times do i have to tell you?
16:48:32 <blechblech> *** blechblech has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
16:49:03 <sbp> once more, please
16:49:12 <sbp> heh, Perl obfuscationary argument
16:49:14 <Morbus> my ass hurts.
16:49:19 <Morbus> i had a hard poo today
16:49:43 <sbp> oh, I've seen this
16:49:44 <sbp> I remember:
16:49:45 <sbp> $mt->Password($opts{password}); # the... ok. self-
16:49:45 <sbp> $mt->BlogId($opts{blogid}); # explanatory!
16:49:49 <Morbus> right.
16:49:54 <sbp> eat bran
16:50:04 <sbp> (or something)
16:51:50 <Morbus> hrm. can i layer a transparent image over another div and have it "work" the way i want it too?
16:52:14 <sbp> not in IE
16:52:23 <Morbus> naturally.
16:52:27 <sbp> :-)
16:54:14 <Talliesin> Fully transparent or alpha?
16:54:37 <valmont> *** valmont (~chrisholl@bdsl.66.13.152.74.gte.net) has joined #swhack
16:54:39 <Talliesin> Fully you can do in IE. alpha requires a workaround based on IE's proprietory "behavior"s
16:56:35 <xover> Hmm. Interesting: http://www.eliyah.com/3rdcom.htm
17:00:44 <Morbus> grrr/
17:00:51 <Morbus> why do these divs have so much space between them!
17:01:35 <DrBacchus> Hi, folks
17:01:41 <Morbus> oddly, it "works" in iE, but not in FF>
17:02:07 <DrBacchus> Eat brain.
17:02:21 <jsled> zombified?
17:02:26 <DrBacchus> braaaaaaanes
17:02:30 <Arnia> IE's box model is screwy according to spec, but easier for people to grasp
17:02:59 <DrBacchus> Blog spammers are the devil.
17:03:02 <DrBacchus> All of them.
17:03:15 <Morbus> stupid div!
17:03:18 <DrBacchus> Devil devil devil.
17:03:35 <Morbus> Arnia: i've got <div container><div><div><div></div>
17:03:36 <DrBacchus> badger badger badger.
17:03:38 <Arnia> * Arnia hands DrBacchus a 6D-bubble
17:03:41 <Morbus> each of the three inner divs have stuff in them.
17:03:49 <Morbus> the first is a top div with an image, next is content, then a bottom image
17:03:51 <DrBacchus> Arnia: What do I do with this thing?
17:03:53 <Morbus> in ie, it looks great.
17:04:02 <Morbus> in ff, there's about 2 ems worth of space between the divs.
17:04:11 <Arnia> DrBacchus: Eat branes *ducks*
17:04:25 <DrBacchus> Eat duck brains?
17:04:34 <DrBacchus> .g 6d-bubble
17:04:44 <phenny> 6d-bubble: http://www.bpe950.com/pdf-documents/tech/tech-9705-bvr-da-instruction.pdf
17:04:57 <Arnia> I believe brane is the term for a generic surface in arbitrary dimension
17:05:07 <DrBacchus> Wow.
17:05:12 <jsled> enter the 6th dimension.
17:05:16 <DrBacchus> Was grad school really that long ago?
17:05:43 <DrBacchus> * DrBacchus reaches for any memories of topology class, but there's nothing there.
17:05:50 <cskaterun> *** cskaterun (~cskaterun@66-27-67-201.san.rr.com) has joined #swhack
17:05:50 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's cskaterun!
17:06:12 <DrBacchus> Speak of the Monty, it's devil!
17:06:13 <Monty> ahgahah
17:06:36 <Morbus> the hell?
17:06:53 <Morbus> Arnia: my middle div seemed to cause the most problem - it had border left and right, but no top/b.
17:06:55 <sbp> Monty the Hell
17:06:56 <Monty> You clear up Job Center...?
17:07:00 <sbp> nope
17:07:02 <DrBacchus> I believe Monty was referring to the Agha Khan.
17:07:02 <Morbus> i add t/b of 1px white, and it got a lot closer.
17:07:03 <Monty> That's like that right?
17:07:12 <sbp> this script is weird:
17:07:12 <sbp> $ ./phenliza.py
17:07:13 <sbp> MacRumors.com input
17:08:36 <Morbus> ARGH.
17:08:38 <crschmidt> Morbus: ampheta desk is your project, right?
17:08:42 <Morbus> i can't have borders at the top/bottom.
17:08:44 <sbp> one word
17:08:47 <Morbus> why is firefox being tarded?1
17:09:14 <crschmidt> (is/was)
17:09:27 <sbp> it is
17:09:43 <sbp> heh:
17:09:43 <sbp> $ ./phenliza.py
17:09:43 <sbp> Your free access
17:10:07 <Morbus> * Morbus curses firefox.
17:10:35 <valmont> *** valmont has quit ()
17:10:35 <crschmidt> Someone locally is looking at starting up a python SIG, and mentioned "David J.Berube" <djberube@***ubeconsulting.com> as the guy who did the win32 amphetadesk GUI
17:10:38 <Morbus> this is even more ridiculous.
17:10:47 <Morbus> yes, that is correct.
17:10:59 <crschmidt> And immediately, of course, morbus comes to mind
17:11:01 <Morbus> he interned here for a bit, and that was his task.
17:11:07 <crschmidt> as he so often does, even in my dreams.
17:11:09 <jsled> interned?
17:11:12 <Morbus> interned.
17:11:18 <jsled> here?
17:11:23 <Morbus> the isp.
17:11:34 <jsled> gotit
17:11:45 <jsled> I thought it was code.
17:11:53 <Morbus> i think he's doing the local LUGs too.
17:11:54 <jsled> like he <nudge>interned</wink>
17:11:56 <Morbus> or, at least, one of them.
17:12:00 <Morbus> David, I mean.
17:12:26 <Morbus> so, why did he mention David in regards to python?
17:12:43 <Morbus> ok, this is retarded. if i add a nbsp before and after my h3's in this middle div, it gets better too.
17:13:42 <crschmidt> Dunno, I think it was just a mention of "This is some stuff these various people have done"
17:14:03 <Morbus> anyone got firefox handy and knows css?
17:17:22 <Morbus> ok, what's so special about an h3?
17:17:30 <Morbus> if I use an h3, its bad, if i use a span, it's not bad.
17:18:07 <Arnia> h3 are already styled
17:18:14 <Morbus> If i remove the margin/padding of the h3, it gets better.
17:18:21 <Morbus> but still has one or two pixels of extra space.
17:18:39 <Arnia> You have to override the styles they're given in the default HTML stylesheet
17:18:58 <Morbus> ok, i just gave them margins and paddings I like
17:19:09 <Morbus> why are they extending those margins OUTside of the div, as oppposed to enlarging the div?
17:20:28 <Arnia> Margins are outside the box, padding is inside
17:20:52 <Morbus> alright, confirmed.
17:21:01 <Morbus> so, my bottom is fine now.
17:21:05 <Morbus> my top still has two or three pixels.
17:21:16 <sbp> [[[
17:21:19 <sbp> Fadge (1 syl.). To suit or fit together, as, It won't fadge; we cannot fadge together; he does not fadge with me. (Anglo-Saxon, f en, to fit together; Welsh, ffag, what tends to unite.)
17:21:23 <sbp> "How will this fadge?"
17:21:23 <sbp> Shakespeare: Twelfth Night, ii. 2.
17:21:29 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.bootlegbooks.com/Reference/PhraseAndFable/data/439.html
17:21:33 <sbp> word of the day: fadge!
17:22:00 <Morbus> that seems to be coming from the top div now, not the middle one.
17:22:03 <Morbus> hrm.
17:22:25 <Arnia> Morbus: Get an FF extension like the webdeveloper's toolbar
17:22:43 <Morbus> yeah, already have it.
17:22:46 <Arnia> You can then use it to show the underlying box model
17:22:48 <Morbus> that's how i know its coming from the top one.
17:22:51 <kpreid> *** kpreid (~kpreid@69-169-188-143.bflony.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
17:23:03 <Arnia> a, k
17:23:11 <Morbus> actually, the bottom div has the same thing.
17:23:14 <Arnia> That is of course a very long 'a'
17:23:19 <Morbus> but since its the bottom, i don't notice or care
17:24:27 <Morbus> goddamit, this is crazy.
17:24:57 <jetscreamer> ffag?
17:26:10 <Arnia> Morbus: No, its all very well principled. Just got to get knowledge of the box model to an instinct
17:26:11 <PhUrl> *** PhUrl is now known as md-happy-new-yea
17:26:21 <md-happy-new-yea> *** md-happy-new-yea is now known as m-happy-new-year
17:26:23 <xover> sbp: ANy chance of “.t dss”, cf. <http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/calend.html>? :-)
17:26:42 <jetscreamer> box model...
17:27:01 <xover> Wash Your Mouth!
17:27:06 <DrBacchus> *** DrBacchus has quit ("I'd rather be geocaching (geocaching.com)")
17:27:23 <Morbus> gasp. is archgive.org down?
17:27:44 <Morbus> sigh.
17:28:24 <Morbus> Arnia: any suggestions? i'[m under xhtml strict, i've one div with one image in it, and i've about 3 pixels of space at the bottom of the image.
17:28:37 <Morbus> this feels like the "images in table" problem explained on netscape devedge
17:28:46 <Morbus> but since i can't get to archive.org, i can't read the page.
17:29:21 <Arnia> Hum... do you have to use XHTML strict?
17:29:41 <sbp> yes
17:29:45 <Morbus> ooh!
17:29:46 <Morbus> #mainbox_top img { display: block; }
17:29:46 <Morbus> #mainbox_bottom img { display: block; }
17:29:50 <Morbus> that seemed to work.
17:30:01 <Morbus> is xhtml strict the "MUST" mime-type one, or the SHOULD?
17:30:03 <sbp> * sbp checks out DSS
17:30:14 <Morbus> i've no problems swtichign to trans, but i think it happens there too.
17:30:51 <sbp> not much. tavtime and julian date might be fun
17:31:11 <xover> XHTML 1.0 is the bastard child of the XML WG and the HTML WG (the latter being the poxy whore of the relationship).
17:31:34 <sbp> heh!
17:31:46 <sbp> *** sbp has changed the topic to: <xover> XHTML 1.0 is the bastard child of the XML WG and the HTML WG (the latter being the poxy whore of the relationship). || 1 more day until Xenosaga II Pre-order (EB shipment Tuesday STOP Perhaps Pre-order DVD? STOP) || <+Monty> Please do not adore noisy bombs >:)
17:32:10 <Morbus> hrm. looks like SHOULD all around, actually http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-xhtml-media-types-20020801/#media-types
17:32:38 <Morbus> was there a diff between 1.0 and 1.1 maybe?
17:32:47 <xover> Now read Appendix C of XHTML 1.0 (and have a puke bag ready for the sake of your surroundings).
17:33:06 <sbp> Morbus: XHTML 1.0 App. C text/html says "MAY"
17:33:08 <xover> XHTML 1.1 MUST be served as application/xhtml+xml, yes.
17:33:14 <Arnia> Yes
17:33:19 <sbp> BZZT
17:33:20 <Morbus> yeah.
17:33:27 <sbp> it says "SHOULD"
17:33:30 <Morbus> ok. nothing to do with strict/trans, only 1.0 and 1.1.
17:33:31 <bjoern_> whaaaaaaaaaaa AppC discussion!
17:33:36 <bjoern_> * bjoern_ flees
17:33:43 <sbp> 1.1 may also be served as text/xml or application/xml
17:33:55 <xover> * xover fleas…
17:33:55 <Morbus> sbp: wait, doe... so 1.1 is MAY also?
17:33:59 <bjoern_> and text/plain and application/octet-stream ...
17:34:02 <Morbus> regardless of trans/strict?
17:34:11 <Morbus> i thought there was some distinction on a MUST somewhere.
17:34:29 <xover> Morbus: Yes. Strict/Transitional has no real influence on MIME type.
17:34:53 <Morbus> so, there was no MUST diff between 1.0 and 1.1 then?
17:34:56 <Morbus> wonder what the hell I read.
17:35:10 <sbp> not a single one says MUST!
17:35:13 <sbp> stop saying MUST
17:35:54 <bjoern_> MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST!
17:35:58 <jsled> TSUM!
17:36:10 <sbp> * sbp waits for the lame jokes to peter out...
17:36:10 <kpreid> blammo?
17:36:15 <xover> There is plenty of difference between 1.0 and 1.1, but 1.1 is wholly impractical and 1.0 is a rotting quagmire. Use HTML 4.01 Strict served as text/html and be done.
17:36:32 <sbp> there's nowt wrong with 1.0
17:36:47 <sbp> HTML 4.01 on the other hand still has the insane SGML shorttag features
17:36:51 <Arnia> Why is 1.1 wholly impractical?
17:37:10 <Arnia> And how is 1.0 worse than HTML 4?
17:37:13 <Morbus> nothing wrong with 1.0
17:37:14 <xover> * xover takes back sbp's christmas present…
17:37:20 <sbp> heh, heh
17:37:28 <sbp> * sbp secrets it away
17:37:41 <Arnia> Eww... secrete a present
17:37:43 <sbp> you complain about the SHORTTAG mess more than I do
17:38:21 <sbp> I'm not pretending that XHTML 1.0 isn't insane. just saying that basically everything the HTML WG has done since... well ever is completely nuts
17:38:27 <xover> Sure, but it pales in comparison to the nause-inducing mess that is XHTML 1.0.
17:39:11 <sbp> well, I guess it depends what you're doing too
17:39:24 <sbp> if you have to use script and style then yes, I very much agree
17:40:27 <xover> * xover ignores everything preceding «…I very much agree» and leaves it at that…
17:40:53 <Morbus> heh
17:40:58 <Morbus> anywyas. lunch.
17:41:20 <xover> Dinner, actually, `round here; but /me otherwise agrees... :-)
17:41:38 <Arnia> * Arnia should get dinner
17:42:00 <sbp> heh. synchronised dinnering
17:43:41 <sbp> summary of the choice:
17:43:43 <crschmidt> i wish i could figure out why irssi won't send utf-8
17:43:46 <sbp> HTML 4.01:
17:43:49 <sbp> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN">
17:43:49 <sbp> <title/GS/<body onLoad="document.f.q.focus()"<form
17:43:49 <sbp> action="http://google.com/search" name=f/<p/<input
17:43:49 <sbp> name=q< type=submit>//
17:43:51 <sbp> XHTML 1.0:
17:43:57 <sbp> <style type="text/css"><!--/*--><![CDATA[/*><!--*/
17:43:57 <sbp> /*]]>*/--></style>
17:43:57 <sbp> <script type="text/javascript"><!--//--><![CDATA[//><!--
17:43:57 <sbp> //--><!]]></script>
17:44:47 <Arnia> My argument would be that you're being silly conflating style, behaviour and content in one file. Split up the files properly :p
17:45:23 <sbp> then it should've been done in the language
17:45:50 <Arnia> Probably, yes
17:48:40 <jetscreamer> -_-
17:50:52 <crschmidt> anyone here use irssi + utf-8?
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18:09:22 <bjoern_> Great british humor: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/de.alt.netdigest/msg/64f6a7a106971214
18:11:09 <bjoern_> @translate german to english Auktionshaus
18:11:11 <supybot> bjoern_: Auction house
18:11:25 <Arnia> Reminds me of a really silly 'joke' in Minimum Recursion Semantics
18:11:53 <bjoern_> @translate german to english Handel
18:11:55 <supybot> bjoern_: Trade
18:12:00 <crschmidt> haha
18:12:18 <Arnia> They called the top index of the semantic representation HANDEL, and the difference list of relations LIZST
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18:42:02 <Morbus> [[[
18:42:10 <Morbus> Imaginary conversation in my head, on the way back to #swhack from lunch
18:42:27 <Morbus> 13:38: <Morbus> Opportunity knocks only on doors with marks on them.
18:42:43 <Morbus> 13:38: <Responder> No, that's Satan.
18:42:51 <Morbus> 13:39: <Morbus> Crap.
18:42:52 <Morbus> ]]]
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18:54:58 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's AaronSw!
18:55:10 <Morbus> sup AaronSw
18:55:27 <AaronSw> "i thought you said / you scratch my bank and i'll scratch your record / and i thought you said we had a deal"
18:55:54 <Morbus> what's new pussycat, whoOOaoa whOOaoaoa.
18:56:07 <AaronSw> hi
18:57:12 <Arnia> "Note: Using Slashdot postings as a source of information is not in the best interest of building knowledge coherent with reality...." -- http://www.linuxsucks.org/read.html?postid=7222&replies=3
18:57:30 <Morbus> heh
18:59:23 <AaronSw> I swear I get the weirdest email.
18:59:27 <AaronSw> I could have a blog just of my email.
19:00:06 <AaronSw> "So my new mantra for the new year is to be ... a true P2P person."
19:00:17 <AaronSw> "Kringle Cookies was a huge sucess this year and thousands of children across Canada left out a Kringle Cookie for Santa!!!"
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19:01:27 <Morbus> grrr.
19:01:39 <Morbus> why cant i just click a link in xchat? always with the right click.
19:05:44 <deltab> maybe you can by holding down some modifier key
19:05:58 <Morbus> the fuck.
19:06:21 <deltab> I don't have that one on my keyboard -- is it a Mac thing?
19:06:23 <Morbus> huh.
19:06:27 <Morbus> nah, this is on linux.
19:06:32 <Morbus> on mac, you just click and it works.
19:06:38 <Morbus> if i do ctrl0click here, it works.
19:06:50 <Morbus> otherwise, rightclick and choose firefox.
19:06:55 <Morbus> thanks on the ctrl ti[.
19:07:00 <Morbus> i'll probably never remember that though <G>
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19:15:56 <kandinski> .acronym ITYM
19:15:59 <Morbus> the fuck?!
19:16:01 <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. Happy New Year to New Zealand, Australia, Japan and all of the many places where it's 2005. Come celebrate with us on #newyear as the rest of the world heads toward 2005 :)
19:16:17 <Morbus> i just got friend/im/spammed with a fucking "donate your money to tsunami" crap.
19:17:58 <crschmidt> i think you mean, kandinski
19:18:16 <Morbus> nope.
19:18:25 <kandinski> ah, crschmidt
19:18:38 <kandinski> thanks la la la
19:18:46 <kandinski> happy new year all
19:19:19 <crschmidt> happy new year, kman
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19:38:21 <Morbus> and the 508 checks will catch that.
19:38:35 <JibberJim> * JibberJim is feeling ill, supposed to already be at a party, want to go to bed
19:39:02 <crschmidt> what's a 508?
19:39:10 <Morbus> section 508. bobby. wai stuff.
19:39:16 <crschmidt> ah. gotcha.
19:39:52 <Arnia> Bobby is a shit checker... Cynthia Says is much better
19:40:03 <Arnia> Bobby is sometimes just plain wrong :)
19:40:40 <jsled> heh. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=374677
19:40:50 <jsled> "U.S. Boosts Tsunami Aid Tenfold to $350M"
19:41:14 <sbp> [18:05] <bjoern_> Great british humor: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/de.alt.netdigest/msg/64f6a7a106971214
19:41:19 <sbp> and The Italian Job was just on
19:41:56 <sbp> o/~ this is the self-preservation society o/~
19:42:09 <sbp> looks better without the images, Morb
19:42:16 <Morbus> what does?
19:42:20 <sbp> when it first loads it's like "ooh" and then it's like "hmm"
19:42:26 <sbp> the secret thing
19:42:30 <Morbus> ah. yeah.
19:42:38 <Morbus> i /wanted/ to use a nav list for the top two buttons.
19:42:42 <Morbus> but inline lists can't have a width set.
19:42:44 <Morbus> so i had to go to the buttons.
19:42:58 <sbp> ah, nuts
19:43:02 <Morbus> haven't chckec it in lynx yet.
19:43:09 <sbp> the nav's pretty good though
19:43:21 <Morbus> oh, yeah, doesn't come out bad.
19:43:39 <Morbus> naturally, they'll be empty alts for those images ;)
19:43:50 <Morbus> actually, i may alt them to an about page equivalent.
19:44:12 <sbp> don't forget that the img tags have to be a la <img /> not <img>
19:44:14 <Morbus> anyways, that comes later.
19:44:19 <Morbus> yeah, i know. all tests <g>
19:44:22 <sbp> ahh
19:44:27 <Morbus> haven't done any .vals at all.
19:44:42 <Morbus> that spiral thing is what i've Learnt Today.
19:44:48 <Morbus> never used positioning.
19:45:07 <sbp> works fine in FF. the image actually overlaps the text and it still works
19:45:22 <Morbus> really? what version, window size?
19:45:23 <sbp> though you can't select the text through the image
19:45:31 <sbp> Firefox 1.0, 800x600
19:45:34 <Morbus> i'm not seeing the same in mine.
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19:45:40 <sbp> smaller res
19:45:50 <sbp> you can only tell by selecting the image
19:45:51 <sbp> hey libby
19:45:51 <Morbus> well, i just webdev toolbared to 800x600, and it still looks fine.
19:45:57 <sbp> yep, it looks fine
19:45:59 <Morbus> sbp: oh, oh, that;s already been fixed.
19:46:05 <sbp> ah
19:46:10 <Morbus> yeah, i was fiddling with absolute posiitoning earlier.
19:46:19 <Morbus> and top works just fine in absolute, but not left/right with window sizing.
19:46:28 <Morbus> so i was experimenting with whitespace IN the image to give me the left/right equivs.
19:46:50 <sbp> oh, I see. so you'll revert to a properly cropped one
19:46:50 <Morbus> yeah.
19:46:52 <Morbus> its already done.
19:46:57 <Morbus> just not in that spot.
19:47:07 <Morbus> i had started with relative, above the divs, and positinoined downloads.
19:47:16 <Morbus> but relative messes up the text, so i switched to absolute, which didn;t.
19:47:26 <Morbus> then i had the briliant idea of putting the image at the bottom, and positioning backwards.
19:47:33 <Morbus> which works just great, cos there's nothing for it to mess up.
19:47:38 <Morbus> which is what I Learnt.
19:47:42 <Morbus> So, its a new "technique" <G>
19:47:45 <sbp> ah, that is clever
19:47:53 <libby> heya sbp
19:47:58 <sbp> until you have to put a copyright notice at the bottom :-)
19:48:01 <Morbus> to my repertoire.
19:48:06 <Morbus> well, i do have to put some links at the bottom there.
19:48:20 <Morbus> but the image will still be below them (codewise), so it won't touch 'em.
19:48:27 <sbp> cool
19:48:55 <Morbus> JibberJim: swear to god, those fixed werent my idea <g>
19:50:09 <libby> hny all, have fun tonight
19:50:32 <CaptSolo> happy new year, all! :)
19:52:22 <JibberJim> good Morbus
19:52:35 <JibberJim> bye all, see y'all next year - Happy New Year!
19:52:45 <crschmidt> Happy New Year Jim
19:52:55 <Morbus> happy been there, done that.
19:53:02 <Morbus> .g devil shat been there done that day
19:53:06 <phenny> devil shat been there done that day: http://www.disobey.com/devilshat/ds981231.htm
19:53:29 <Morbus> that's article #2.
19:53:30 <Morbus> ah well.
19:53:35 <Morbus> i'm sure its really pisspoor.
19:53:40 <Morbus> it really annoys me.
19:53:49 <Morbus> because, i think i'm doing good work now, just like i thought years ago when i wrote that.
19:53:59 <Morbus> and ten years from now, i'm gonna look back on today and grow just as weary as I do now.
19:54:03 <Morbus> I /suck/.
19:55:11 <Morbus> anyways, leaving early today.
19:55:15 <Morbus> ngith all
19:55:21 <Morbus> i may be on later, drunk. it'll be fun.
19:55:27 <Morbus> i'll sing for you.
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20:19:43 <jsled> hmmm.... anyone familiar with `nm`?
20:20:29 <Arnia> Nevermind?
20:20:38 <jsled> /usr/bin/nm
20:21:57 <crschmidt> seems to list symbols from object files
20:23:04 <jsled> yah. the problem is that it lists the symbols from each object file in a library independently. So if you have foo.o and bar.o, and foo.o needs bar_function and bar.o provides it, it doesn't really say that the archive is ... "self-consistent".
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23:11:13 <crschmidt> happy new year, to those for whom its passed
23:12:48 <mattis> happy new year
23:13:22 <crschmidt> * crschmidt still has 5+ hours lef
23:20:13 <Talliesin> .acronym WB
23:20:34 <Talliesin> @acronym WB
23:20:36 <supybot> Talliesin: WB could be Warner Brothers, or Wide Band, or Wage Board, or Warm Blood (saddle), or Warrant Bond, or Waste Basket (computer/OS usage), or Water Ballast, or Water Barrier, or Water Basin, or Water Board, or Water Brake, or Water-Based, or Waybill (shipping), or Weather Balloon, or Weather Bureau, or Weber (SI unit of magnetic flux), or Weebl and Bob (cartoon), or Weekly (1 more message)
23:23:30 <Arnia> It has Weebl and Bob in it? Cool :)
23:24:26 <Talliesin> Got priorities straight.
23:25:11 <Arnia> @acronym OWL
23:25:13 <supybot> Arnia: OWL could be Object Windows Library, or Obstacle Warning Laser, or Older & Wiser Lutheran, or Older Women's League, or Ongoing Weight Loss (Atkins diet), or Online Writing Lab, or Operator Wireless and Line, or Ordinary Wizarding Level (Harry Potter books), or Orthopaedic Web Links, or Ostwestfalen-Lippe (German region), or Our Whole Lives (Unitarian Universalist youth groups), or (1 more message)
23:25:23 <Talliesin> Though televised it's Wobbl and Bob, so that they don't get sued by Playskool (who make Weebles - Weebles wobble, but they don't fall down)
23:25:31 <Arnia> @more
23:25:31 <supybot> Arnia: Outlined White Letters (Refers to outlined white-letters on the sidewalls of certain tires), or Overwhelmingly Large Telescope, or Web Ontology Language (W3C)
23:25:51 <Arnia> 'overwhelmingly large telescope'...
23:26:01 <Arnia> Physicists think they're cute...
23:26:19 <xover> «Very Large Array» didn't have enough oomph.
23:26:42 <Talliesin> Not to mention Web Ontology Language
23:26:51 <Talliesin> Obviously inspired by A. A. Milne
23:26:57 <Arnia> Yes, that's even 'cuter'
23:27:03 <Arnia> * Arnia mutters
23:27:27 <Talliesin> "Owl could spell his own name WOL but somehow came to pieces over larger words like 'Measles' and 'Butteredtoast'
23:27:38 <xover> * xover creates wikipedia node for the Abridged Web Ontology Language…