00:13:53 <BigJibby> *** BigJibby (~matt@ip3-9.eyrkonaeac03.dialup.ca.telus.com) has joined #swhack
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00:46:58 <BigJibby> supybot, who am I?
00:46:59 <supybot> BigJibby: (who [<mask>]) -- Returns the nicks of all users matching <mask> on this network. If <mask> is not given, '*supybot*' will be used.
00:47:33 <BigJibby> Monty, same question ?
00:47:37 <Monty> In all honesty, titlebar twists gaping bowling-alley.
00:50:56 <crschmidt> twe, tell something to BigJibby
00:51:05 <twe> crschmidt: % I suppose that has something to bigjibby.
00:52:07 <BigJibby> twe, is that all?
00:52:31 <twe> BigJibby: How could i have never found printing photos easy: select a picture, click print, and choose the size of the cosmos gets drunk and kills all the dust was taking up two shelves worth of space for $10/month, right?
00:53:19 <BigJibby> twe, exactly!
00:53:26 <twe> BigJibby: Typeerror: clonenode() takes exactly 2 arguments (1 given.
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01:01:23 <BigJibby> twe, exactly 2.54 centimetres in 1 inch
01:01:29 <eaon> HUZZA
01:01:32 <twe> BigJibby: Queued writing 2 bytes to http://crschmidt.net/noets/54.
01:02:16 <eaon> i ate 2 queued bytes for breakfast while writing.
01:05:12 <BigJibby> i just had 2 nibbles
01:05:53 <eaon> i prefer the version with 'p'
01:06:13 <crschmidt> pnibbles?
01:17:30 <Chrispy> *** Chrispy (~Chrispy@ip-80-226-232-200.vodafone-net.de) has joined #swhack
01:17:41 <Chrispy> Hi montey
01:17:50 <JibberJim> Monty! not Montey
01:17:54 <Monty> http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40764000/jpg/_40764127_crazyfrog.jpg
01:18:10 <Chrispy> Hi Monty
01:18:12 <Monty> Cool. I just see you meant DarlaM
01:18:20 <JibberJim> twe, chat to swhack
01:18:27 <twe> JibberJim: Swhack trivia: aaronsw once banned wkearney from #swhack.
01:18:32 <JibberJim> or Monty
01:18:35 <Monty> In ARPAdays, there could say that.
01:18:52 <JibberJim> twe, meet Chrispy, Chrispy meet Monty
01:18:54 <Monty> ANY ONE HAVE A925 HERE
01:19:04 <twe> JibberJim: Monty: 18:06z <jibberjim> tell monty to tell you: 'glamour' [mon jan 31 05:30:48 gmt 2005.
01:19:06 <Monty> David Coulthard's linguistic roof!
01:19:10 <eaon> twe: meet next life!
01:19:24 <twe> eaon: He lives in the room banging into things, talking about how my life in in the frock again brings back memories.
01:19:30 <Chrispy> me no hear nothing!
01:19:57 <Chrispy> frock, sorry I am newcomer?
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01:21:22 <Chrispy> Does this have anything with Monty Python to do?
01:21:23 <Monty> Schedule: 10 years
01:22:03 <eaon> Monty: python?
01:22:05 <Monty> Thesedays, sitcom is yummy :P
01:22:36 <kpreid> *** kpreid has quit ()
01:22:40 <Chrispy> teddybot: hi
01:23:08 <kpreid> *** kpreid (~kpreid@69-169-188-143.bflony.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
01:23:33 <BigJibby> Monty, stop it
01:23:35 <Monty> dastardly Schumacher :P
01:24:01 <Chrispy> Schumacher, as in F1?
01:25:41 <Chrispy> twe: hi
01:25:51 <twe> Chrispy: Devoice: 16; googlecount: 13; remind: 8; google: 4; seen: 3; hi: 1.
01:27:09 <Chrispy> twe: hi
01:27:12 <MooseBot> hello Chrispy
01:27:14 <twe> Chrispy: Tell laszlo javier said hi!
01:27:43 <Chrispy> I am not a bot, but I can tell him anyway
01:28:04 <MooseBot> Chrispy are you a bot?
01:28:18 <Chrispy> Not yet
01:28:55 <Chrispy> laszlo, javier says hi!
01:29:02 <Chrispy> how's that
01:29:04 <Chrispy> ?
01:29:07 <MooseBot> Chrispy, pass the potatoe chips
01:29:27 <Chrispy> Sorry, mine are all out
01:31:18 <Chrispy> ok, I pass what I have
01:31:48 <MooseBot> Chrispy, thnx, and thnx to Monty too
01:31:53 <Monty> It seems that esculent televised Adam Reiniger implements pretentious damp acid?!
01:32:00 <Chrispy> MooseBot, are you a bot?
01:32:00 <MooseBot> I have no idea, Chrispy.
01:33:36 <BigJibby> MooseBot, why not?
01:33:38 <MooseBot> Dunno, BigJibby.
01:35:25 <Chrispy> Well that explains it all
01:35:45 <Chrispy> MooseBot, did you get the chips back?
01:35:47 <MooseBot> Wish I knew, Chrispy.
01:37:02 <Chrispy> JibberJim has them, but he is sleeping right now
01:37:35 <BigJibby> MooseBot, stop being an ass
01:37:37 <MooseBot> BigJibby: What? do I look like Monty or something?
01:37:41 <Monty> Hey Jim, I mean it about what you'd leave it frak up 12:49, 1 inch
01:42:52 <BigJibby> MooseBot, yes, you do look like Monty
01:42:53 <Monty> heheheh
01:42:57 <MooseBot> BigJibby: a face only your mother could love, that's Morbus for ya'
01:54:44 <cskaterun> *** cskaterun (~cskaterun@gw.hightechhigh.org) has joined #swhack
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02:08:07 <Chrispy> bye! maybe he had the chips MooseBot?
02:14:39 <Chrispy> Who is Monty?
02:14:40 <Monty> yeah, even.
02:14:57 <Chrispy> Monty, are you a bot
02:14:57 <Monty> brb
02:15:37 <BigJibby> MooseBot who is Monty?
02:15:38 <MooseBot> Dunno.
02:15:41 <Monty> yah. its uber secure because some handmade from local civil socity
02:16:21 <BigJibby> Monty is my friend!
02:16:26 <Monty> brontosaurus's mystifying congestion specialises in wishlists's incompetent open days :P
02:16:40 <bancus> .wn as
02:16:47 <bancus> .w as
02:16:49 <phenny> as 1. a very poisonous metallic element that has three allotropic forms; arsenic and arsenic compounds are used as herbicides and insecticides and various alloys; found in arsenopyrite and orpiment and realgar
02:16:53 <phenny> as 2. a United States territory on the eastern part of the island of Samoa
02:16:57 <phenny> as 3. to the same degree (often followed by `as'); "they were equally beautiful"; "birds were singing and the child sang as sweetly"; "sang as sweetly as a nightingale"; "he is every bit as mean as she is" [...]
02:18:38 <BigJibby> MooseBot who is Monty?
02:18:38 <MooseBot> I guess Monty is my friend, BigJibby
02:18:39 <Monty> ouch
02:18:41 <Monty> Same with US WTH A S HELL COMAND!" stuff.
02:19:24 <Chrispy> now that is english!
02:20:44 <Chrispy> Why is it an "ouch" when Monty is MooseBot's friend?
02:20:45 <Monty> Yes, there for you?
02:21:35 <BigJibby> Monty is an idiot, is why
02:21:40 <Monty> JimH - teach him all externally defined users onto a lame anti-spam measure
02:22:47 <Chrispy> Are you guys talking real shit or just plain shit?
02:23:10 <eaon> believe it or not, from time to time you've got real discussions here
02:23:29 <crschmidt> twe, monty, show Chrispy the door.
02:23:31 <Monty> expostulatory condoms?!
02:23:47 <twe> crschmidt: That's what i'm doing, so it's important to make windows talk to my front door, but the cpu was peaking for a year to break down every door.
02:24:10 <BigJibby> .w expostulatory
02:24:14 <phenny> I couldn't find expostulatory in WordNet.
02:24:55 <Chrispy> The real question is in the question itself!
02:25:49 <BigJibby> the medium is the message!
02:26:14 <Chrispy> the medium is defined by the message
02:26:44 <Chrispy> and the bots ahve them all
02:27:45 <Chrispy> no matter where you go, there you are!
02:28:10 <BigJibby> in god we trust!
02:28:20 <Chrispy> so it be
02:28:55 <BigJibby> * BigJibby is on hour 5 of his OOo compile ...
02:29:29 <eaon> 3-5 more to go then
02:29:40 <BigJibby> :(
02:29:40 <Chrispy> Well, mister BigJibby, you are up late, oder you have the wrong computer!
02:29:53 <eaon> oder, sounds like you're german
02:30:10 <Chrispy> no, just live there
02:30:10 <eaon> and i am right!
02:30:26 <eaon> ah, how come you used oder then? :)
02:30:50 <BigJibby> Linux newton 2.6.10-gentoo-r6 #1 Sat Jan 29 14:19:20 EST 2005 i686 AMD Athlon(tm) XP 1700+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
02:30:57 <Chrispy> I live in Germany since 14 years, you would think I could write it!
02:31:20 <BigJibby> 14 AD?
02:31:34 <Chrispy> After Death?
02:31:50 <Chrispy> After Divorce?
02:32:23 <Chrispy> After Deciding that the US is not my place?
02:32:35 <Chrispy> none of the above
02:33:08 <eikeon_> *** eikeon_ (~eikeon@209.172.118.130) has joined #swhack
02:33:09 <Monty> hi eikeon_
02:33:18 <Chrispy> yo
02:33:27 <deltab> "since 14 years ago", or "for 14 years"
02:33:44 <deltab> also "I've lived"
02:34:20 <deltab> that is, "I've lived in Germany for 14 years"
02:34:27 <Chrispy> It's a great place, and am very happy!
02:34:44 <BigJibby> "I'll take names that start with D, please Alex"
02:34:46 <bancus> English doesn't really allow for dropping of pronouns as most sane languages do.
02:34:55 <Chrispy> Ich habe in Deutschland seit 14 gelebt!
02:34:57 <bancus> (s/and am/and I am/)
02:35:12 <themaximus> *** themaximus has quit ("Leaving")
02:35:46 <eaon> that meas you did
02:35:49 <eaon> not you still do
02:35:56 <eaon> ich lebe seit 14 jahren in deutschland ;)
02:36:19 <Chrispy> oder, Ich lebe seit 14 Jahre in Deutschland.
02:37:01 <Chrispy> I'm still working on it. The living part and the language
02:37:05 <BigJibby> danke
02:38:28 <Chrispy> I feel better now, thzanks
02:38:28 <BigJibby> MooseBot, translate german to english oder, Ich lebe seit 14 Jahre in Deutschland.
02:38:33 <MooseBot> BigJibby: or, I live since 14 years in Germany.
02:38:55 <Chrispy> I am in Germany since 14 years
02:39:10 <Talliesin> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bukkake.php (not quite as disturbing as the URI suggests, though close)
02:39:12 <Chrispy> Since 14 years, I live in Germany
02:39:37 <deltab> "since 14 years" is ungrammatical in English
02:39:49 <BigJibby> "For 14 years, I've lived in Germany"
02:40:41 <Talliesin> "since 14 years ago" is grammatical.
02:40:54 <deltab> * deltab nods
02:40:54 <Chrispy> ok, "For the last 14 years, I have lived in Germany"!
02:40:57 <themaximus> *** themaximus (~max@cpe-69-204-83-40.rochester.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
02:41:02 <deltab> * deltab nods
02:41:18 <Chrispy> do I pass?
02:41:37 <BigJibby> MooseBot, translate english to german For the last 14 years, I have lived in Germany
02:42:13 <MooseBot> BigJibby: F die letzten 14 Jahre habe ich in Deutschland gewohnt
02:42:38 <Chrispy> gewohnt?
02:42:38 <eaon> s/In den/F die/
02:42:49 <Chrispy> gelebt!
02:42:54 <eaon> oh and s/Jahre/Jahren/
02:43:06 <eaon> live means both though
02:43:39 <Talliesin> The End of the World (Useful for explaining nuclear paranoia to the younger generation): http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php
02:43:48 <eaon> no swhacker
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02:45:09 <Chrispy> too network intesive and I get ".. Games" install
02:45:34 <kpreid> no sbp either. hm.
02:46:01 <thelsdj> Talliesin: that one is a classic
02:46:09 <kpreid> we still have loggy and phenny, so it's not a system failure
02:46:41 <Talliesin> thelsdj, http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/pie.php is another classic, though so much of a classic that everyone's probably already seen it.
02:46:53 <Talliesin> 'twas even on MTV back when I used to watch television.
02:48:10 <crschmidt> sbp is here as sbp`
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03:13:34 <Chrispy> well, you wild and crazy people take care now. I have to hit the sack!
03:13:55 <Chrispy> Slag der Strasse
03:14:40 <BigJibby> .ety sack
03:14:44 <phenny> sack: Middle English sak bag, sackcloth, from Old English sacc, from Latin saccus bag & Late Latin saccus sackcloth, both from Greek sakkos bag, sackcloth, of Semitic origin; akin to Hebrew saq bag, sackcloth
03:14:59 <AaronSw> *** AaronSw (~Snak@gork.Stanford.EDU) has joined #swhack
03:15:02 <Chrispy> schlag der Strasse! "Hit the road!"
03:15:29 <eaon> die strasse :) *hides*
03:15:37 <Chrispy> Sack, as in "Schlafsack"
03:15:39 <eaon> hello aaron
03:15:56 <AaronSw> I think this may be the first time in a very long time I've visited swhack just to visit
03:16:00 <Chrispy> bye aaron!
03:16:14 <Chrispy> *** Chrispy has quit ("To work I go")
03:16:18 <AaronSw> ?
03:16:40 <deltab> hi
03:16:51 <kpreid> * kpreid waves
03:16:56 <BigJibby> salut
03:17:09 <swhacker> *** swhacker (nobody@vorpal.notabug.com) has joined #swhack
03:17:29 <kpreid> swhacker!
03:18:12 <AaronSw> I did say I'd publish to swhacker and I did, I just never had a lot of links to publish because I wasn't so into that anymore.
03:18:31 <BigJibby> au revoir
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03:18:33 <AaronSw> what's eph?
03:18:44 <AaronSw> * AaronSw wnders if he's causing the mass exodus
03:18:54 <kpreid> probably not
03:18:56 <kpreid> today is saturday?!? (on internal calendar mishaps): http://www.dynamicobjects.com/d2r/archives/003087.html
03:18:57 <swhacker> posted 701
03:19:01 <AaronSw> oh, I see what eph is
03:19:10 <kpreid> 701::Then after some well-deserved heckling my friend says, "well, you should know the date because of your blog. You post there after all." But then, in one of those moments when the words are out of your mouth before you know what you're saying, I reply: "my blog knows the what day it is. *I* don't."
03:19:10 <deltab> I don't
03:19:37 <AaronSw> http://inamidst.com/eph/
03:19:45 <kpreid> 701:(you'd have seen this 2 days ago, except that swhacker was missing)
03:19:50 <deltab> heh, that happened to me today
03:20:03 <deltab> I arrived for an appointment a full week too early
03:20:52 <Talliesin> The End of the World (Useful for explaining nuclear paranoia to the younger generation): http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php
03:20:52 <swhacker> posted 702
03:21:39 <Talliesin> NN all
03:22:55 <eaon> netalley Talliesin
03:27:22 <sbp`> * sbp` waves
03:27:27 <AaronSw> hi!
03:27:40 <sbp`> <AaronSw> I did say I'd publish to swhacker and I did, I just never had a lot of links to publish because I wasn't so into that anymore.
03:27:55 <sbp`> so the question really was why you need a new blog now that you have lots of links to publish again
03:28:12 <sbp`> is the publishing mechanism of having to join #swhack too time-consuming/unproductive?
03:28:38 <AaronSw> The new blog doesn't publish links.
03:28:45 <sbp`> if so, would it have been possible to have (as well) a CGI or similar input mechanism to Swhackit!? and what're you using for your ow...
03:28:48 <sbp`> ah
03:28:54 <AaronSw> I'm using Movable Type.
03:29:48 <sbp`> doesn't publish links: it seems to work in exactly the same way as swhacker apart from the comment syntax; I misunderstood
03:30:07 <AaronSw> comment syntax?
03:30:22 <sbp`> yeah. it's not line based
03:30:28 <sbp`> comments on the posts; annotations
03:30:31 <AaronSw> ah
03:30:47 <AaronSw> yes, it's very similar stylistically, just a different genre
03:30:59 <kpreid> phenny lacks voice
03:31:01 <AaronSw> like the Green Bag and the Intelligencer
03:31:02 <sbp`> right. so I was also wondering about categorization
03:31:15 <sbp`> kpreid: yeah. I'm not sure why sh... oh wait, I've just figured it out
03:31:44 <sbp`> usually she'd automatically do it (and hence automatically devoice AaronSw when he joins)
03:32:25 <AaronSw> what were you wondering?
03:32:46 <sbp`> whether we could have an Aaron's Stuff category and a Swhack's Stuff one for swhacker
03:33:09 <AaronSw> why?
03:33:17 <sbp`> but then I don't know really exactly what kind of links you're seeking to publish on your blog
03:33:33 <sbp`> so that we can still publish bits we think suitable, and have it all in one place
03:33:47 <AaronSw> is this all about getting on my blog? that email sounded like you were really offended I took you off without consulting you
03:33:53 <AaronSw> i put you on without consulting, as i recall
03:34:07 <sbp`> hmm? not at all--you *did* consult me!
03:34:08 <AaronSw> so i'm a bit mystified about the disconnect in our ways of seeing it
03:34:14 <sbp`> go read the email again, perhaps :-)
03:34:32 <AaronSw> told sbp is different from consulted swhack
03:34:46 <sbp`> ah, but as I say, I should've relayed it
03:34:55 <AaronSw> it still wouldn't be a consultation
03:35:13 <sbp`> I guess, but I don't really mind
03:35:31 <AaronSw> as for what i'm interested, i think the blog's name is relatively self-explanatory: "articles (the finest of the short nonfiction form)"
03:35:59 <AaronSw> the idea could be to read things on paper and link them rather than recycling the same webpages once again
03:36:18 <sbp`> works for me--but would you consider a good article on haberdashery or horticulture to be worthy of it, for example?
03:36:23 <AaronSw> yes
03:36:30 <AaronSw> fsvo good
03:36:37 <sbp`> right...
03:36:45 <AaronSw> i also just like the form
03:37:31 <AaronSw> when done right, it can be even better than an encyclopedia article
03:37:33 <MooseBot> *** MooseBot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
03:37:41 <AaronSw> which i think of as sort of the highest form of writing
03:37:46 <sbp`> anyway, on "is this all about getting on my blog?" it's almost that, but it's more that I'm worried you don't find the stuff we publish to be of any value rather than getting on there for PR purposes or whatever. most of the stuff we swhackerise is random, so coverage somewhere important doesn't really matter
03:37:48 <AaronSw> so that's high praise
03:37:51 <sbp`> it's just stuff we find interesting
03:38:08 <AaronSw> "getting on there for PR purposes"?
03:38:25 <sbp`> Page Rank. we have tried Googlebombing stuff via swhacker before :-)
03:38:33 <AaronSw> ah
03:38:43 <AaronSw> well, to be frank, the stuff you posted was frequently embarassing -- i'd often blush upon seeing my own blog
03:39:12 <sbp`> and agreed about the article form. you can learn a lot about writing generally from really good ones, but it's not worth filtering all the crap personally. I suppose that's why your idea's rather good, as long as you continue to invest the time in producing it
03:39:14 <d8uv> Totally agreed
03:39:21 <sbp`> heh, heh. got an example?
03:39:33 <crschmidt> The most recent one that Talliesin attempted to post would probably fit
03:39:39 <sbp`> * sbp` looks
03:39:40 <sbp`> Talliesin
03:39:42 <sbp`> argh
03:39:50 <sbp`> Ctrl+F, where are you now?!
03:40:16 <crschmidt> hm, no, maybe i was wrong
03:40:32 <AaronSw> 657 was also a good one
03:40:36 <sbp`> yeah, I think so. most people are going to just give up sicne it takes so long to load :-)
03:40:40 <sbp`> * sbp` checks out 657
03:40:54 <AaronSw> and 655
03:40:57 <crschmidt> i was actually thinking that the "bukkake" one was attempting to go to swhacker
03:40:59 <crschmidt> which it wasn't.
03:41:26 <crschmidt> * crschmidt knows that he posted things to swhackit! without realizing it was on aaron's blog before
03:41:37 <crschmidt> so I pretty much assumed it was just going to swhackers, when that wasn't the case.
03:42:05 <sbp`> heh. I miss a lot of these too
03:42:11 <AaronSw> there's certainly not indication otherwise
03:42:25 <kpreid> It's a feature!
03:42:29 <sbp`> notabug
03:42:38 <kpreid> .
03:42:47 <sbp`> anyway, I see your point. on the other hand, there's also a lot of good quality stuff too
03:43:27 <sbp`> for example, I think that every single one on the current page (except perhaps Talliesin's, which probably still hasn't loaded) is rather fitting for any tech-blog
03:43:34 <AaronSw> i'm sure, but i certainly don't want to be responsible for it all anymore
03:43:56 <AaronSw> and since when is my blog a techblog?
03:44:05 <AaronSw> (the i'm sure was in response to "good quality")
03:44:32 <sbp`> tech in its widest sense. e.g. "Learn Yiddish from old and revered icons in pedagogy" isn't techblog either when you take it that narrowly, but that's on swhacker
03:45:12 <sbp`> this kinda strange politicolingualtechmelding
03:45:49 <crschmidt> "The meaning of tech which equals the typical content of swhack", then? :)
03:45:50 <AaronSw> my blog is sort of psychosocialologicalmelding
03:45:52 <AaronSw> these days
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03:46:31 <sbp`> anyway, again, as I said in the email I certainly don't mind you taking it off--it's *your* blog--but I would've liked this feedback at the time if you thought the quality was low, and if you thought there were ways round it (or if there's anything we should do at all to address it)
03:46:49 <sbp`> yeah, ever the hums undergrad :-)
03:46:58 <sbp`> * sbp` dives for cover
03:47:21 <AaronSw> I see. that makes sense. I guess i didn't feel i had any right to discuss its quality, sorta having deserted it
03:47:28 <AaronSw> * AaronSw not sure why sbp is diving
03:48:05 <sbp`> you don't seem to like IHUM
03:48:26 <AaronSw> I don't
03:48:46 <AaronSw> but IHUM seems distinct from "the humanities"
03:48:46 <sbp`> and you should've known that we wouldn't mind your input. again as I said in the email, if you had a reason to desert it (and you must've) then that's fine--how else are you going to back out?
03:48:59 <AaronSw> back out?
03:49:10 <sbp`> of posting to swhacker. "sorta having deserted it"
03:49:28 <sbp`> and yeah. actually I'm not entirely sure of the scope of IHUM
03:49:50 <AaronSw> IHUM is a required course, it consists of a set of options
03:50:03 <sbp`> glad you're using real dates on your blog now. I didn't actually realise you were that far lagging
03:50:23 <AaronSw> yeah, i wasn't sure how to count the days after going home
03:50:39 <sbp`> Volume II, Day 1? :-)
03:50:43 <AaronSw> i'm only two months behind; that's not so bad...
03:51:12 <AaronSw> i've actually written most of the lag
03:51:25 <AaronSw> its just that i want to do things in order
03:51:37 <sbp`> so can't you post with twice the frequency that you wrote until you get back to being contemporary?
03:51:41 <AaronSw> wow, 10,228 unpublished words
03:51:46 <sbp`> heh, wow
03:52:16 <AaronSw> for a total of 53,494 words
03:52:33 <sbp`> since you started at Stanford? that's quite impressive really
03:52:37 <sbp`> book-size already
03:52:48 <sbp`> (and I still think you should look towards publishing it on paper)
03:53:31 <AaronSw> is that book-size?
03:53:50 <AaronSw> it'd be wonderful to publish it in paper. i imagine the various typographical layout things i'd do sometimes
03:54:04 <sbp`> yeah. I consider anything over 50,000 publishable, though I can't remember why. I read that as being the opinion of some writer ages and ages ago; perhaps a decade
03:54:29 <AaronSw> since the year is about half over, i might have 70K-100K when i'm done
03:54:45 <sbp`> right. it'd be a nice summer vacation project!
03:55:15 <AaronSw> true. i doubt i could get a publisher, tho
03:55:54 <AaronSw> frequency: i post about as soon as they're ready, the main problem is there are a few gaps here and there and I have to consult my paper notes, which takes a while
03:56:01 <sbp`> not sure. I think the best thing to do in these sort of circumstances is to look for prior art and see what publishing house went with that; maybe you can give them the same thing
03:56:14 <sbp`> but I don't know any journalbooks quite like this
03:56:28 <AaronSw> _On Subbing_ is the closest I know of, and quite enjoyable
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03:56:37 <AaronSw> but it was published by an anarchist press, which might not be a bad idea actually
03:56:54 <sbp`> ah. so you actually take it on paper? I didn't know that. actually, I was a bit confused about your internet access there; seems like you would've just been typing and publishing as you go. the lag's confusing
03:57:22 <sbp`> an anarchist press? as in, a press for and run by anarchists? :-)
03:57:27 <AaronSw> yes
03:57:51 <AaronSw> and run anarchically, i believe
03:57:55 <AaronSw> they're quite good
03:58:04 <AaronSw> i am, of course, an anarchist
03:58:06 <sbp`> either anarchically or hypocrtically...
03:58:14 <sbp`> (but with an extra i)
03:58:25 <sbp`> .g "On Subbing"
03:58:34 <phenny> "On Subbing": http://www.microcosmpublishing.com/
03:58:54 <AaronSw> it's their 2nd bestselling title, that's surprising
03:59:14 <AaronSw> it's a very bizarre book
03:59:16 <sbp`> heh: http://www.microcosmpublishing.com/images/trailer8.jpg
04:00:05 <AaronSw> i try not to carry anything when i go places so the only thing i really have to write on is my notebook
04:00:08 <AaronSw> sometimes i use napkins or handouts, tho
04:00:22 <sbp`> "We also reject 90-95% of what is submitted to us." though I doubt that'd happen in your case. they're a bit slow too
04:00:25 <AaronSw> then when i get back to my room, there's my laptop which is plugged into an ethernet jack on the wall
04:00:50 <sbp`> ah. yeah, I use a notebook when I'm out and about too
04:01:05 <sbp`> but I don't write anything substantial on it. I'm not out and about much either, thankfully
04:01:10 <AaronSw> the anarchist press I was actually thinking of was akpress.org
04:01:16 <sbp`> oh. looking...
04:02:32 <AaronSw> their edition of At War With Asia is classic
04:02:36 <sbp`> meh. nothing much about the publication process there other than "We are always seeking new material to distribute. Please send samples, catalogs, etc to the Oakland street address listed to the right. "
04:02:43 <AaronSw> i'm mostly thinking of their cover, i guess
04:02:48 <AaronSw> Radical Priorities wasn't bad either
04:02:50 <sbp`> at least Oakland's pretty close
04:03:02 <sbp`> * sbp` looks for the At War With Asia cover
04:03:25 <AaronSw> http://akpress.org/images/cms/2191_popup.jpg
04:03:31 <sbp`> nice URIs: http://www.akpress.org/2004/items/atwarwithasia
04:03:39 <sbp`> and thanks
04:03:50 <AaronSw> its subtle and doesn't scan well, but it's sort of a glossy bullseye imprinted over some farmers
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04:04:22 <sbp`> yeah, it's hard to make out the bullseye at the bottom
04:04:32 <sbp`> good idea though
04:04:55 <sbp`> especially the subtlety really. wouldn't've been as good if it were blatant
04:05:16 <AaronSw> yeah, its not even an adjustment to the cover, its a gloss on top of it which causes the light to reflect differently
04:05:26 <sbp`> oh wow
04:05:44 <sbp`> hmm. what'd you choose as a cover for a binding of your first year at Stanford?
04:06:10 <AaronSw> i think i'd defintiely hire cheshire dave
04:06:12 <sbp`> a glossy bullseye over the word injustice? :-)
04:06:33 <sbp`> ah, I remember you raving about him before
04:06:52 <AaronSw> yeah, but the irony would be good too
04:07:11 <sbp`> how so ironic?
04:07:20 <AaronSw> because he's the only person I know who reviews book covers
04:07:27 <sbp`> aha
04:07:49 <sbp`> it'd be the only one he couldn't review, assuming he's never made one before
04:08:02 <AaronSw> right
04:09:32 <sbp`> * sbp` reads your cop out email response
04:09:39 <AaronSw> i think i'd probably do something like http://www.cheshiredave.com/mastication/covers/200310/orringer.html if it was up to me
04:09:41 <sbp`> simple in what way? :-)
04:10:07 <AaronSw> in the way "print 'foo'" is
04:10:38 <sbp`> way too intriguing
04:10:43 <AaronSw> post to my weblog about the SOTU: "you people need to wait and let things play out. Economy will improve, troops will come home, all you need to do is let time tell. Stop punching numbers and making bogus statements about in 50 years this and that will be doubled and social security will be gone."
04:11:16 <AaronSw> "DONKEYS SUCK"
04:11:43 <sbp`> no they don't, surely? they can carry stuff and make odd bleating noises etc.
04:11:50 <sbp`> what more do you want from an animal?
04:12:12 <AaronSw> i find the soothing juxtaposition hilarious -- just wait fifty years, the troops will come home and social security will be gone
04:12:27 <AaronSw> someone got offmessage there, i think
04:12:41 <AaronSw> what do you think of my Dec1 post?
04:13:00 <sbp`> haven't read it yet. I didn't see them posted until you came online just now. I'll go and read that one specifically
04:13:36 <sbp`> s/how the idea is practice/how the idea is practiced/
04:14:18 <AaronSw> fixed
04:15:00 <sbp`> s/the victim was to had the person/the victim was to give the person/
04:15:03 <sbp`> (presumably)
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04:15:59 <sbp`> hehe. "Aaron Swartz: The Stanford Diaries"--you've even got a title
04:19:51 <sbp`> heh, heh: "Someone in the audience asks if she takes credit cards but she does not."
04:21:03 <sbp`> whee. is attending these things mandatory or something?
04:21:17 <AaronSw> the sexualized rituals are option
04:21:18 <AaronSw> al
04:21:32 <sbp`> why'd you attend?
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04:21:41 <AaronSw> how could you pass something like that up?
04:22:08 <sbp`> hmm. I don't think there's any possible answer to that
04:23:04 <kpreid> [[[
04:23:05 <kpreid> > Polluting the Moon could turn it into a lifeless desert!
04:23:06 <kpreid> You're reminding me of a science fiction story I read where an industrialist wanted to mine the moon, or an asteroid, or some such, and was informed by the government
04:23:09 <kpreid> that he would have to fill out an Environmental Impact Statement. He submitted a piece of paper with 4 words: "No environment, no impact".
04:23:12 <kpreid> ]]] -- <news:ctlsl6$9sg$1@home.itg.ti.com>
04:23:22 <sbp`> chuckle
04:24:22 <kpreid> (the story in question being identified in a reply: "It was Mars, and the book was /Circuit Breaker/ by Melinda Snodgrass.")
04:24:25 <sbp`> AaronSw: the most amazing thing to me is that they must all be Stanford students. I wonder if there's a university in the world that has a majority of people that don't act like absolute pillocks. I've visited and heard about quite a few, and I don't think there is a single one yet
04:25:20 <sbp`> I also like your method of reporting with its "just tellin' the facts, ma'am" approach to exposing absurdity
04:26:07 <sbp`> no comment where it doesn't need it. in fact, you seem almost entirely bereft of comment on any of the social aspects--you just report it
04:26:33 <sbp`> doesn't seem to work as well when you do it for politics for some reasons
04:26:40 <sbp`> s/reasons/reason/
04:27:03 <AaronSw> Chomsky's much better at it in politics.
04:27:05 <sbp`> e.g. the headline comparisons entry
04:27:24 <sbp`> are you emulating that, or did you arrive at it independently?
04:27:35 <AaronSw> independently
04:27:47 <sbp`> nice when that happens
04:28:35 <AaronSw> e.g. "Consider Skinner's claim that `we sample and change verbal behavior not opinions' (so a behavioral analysis reveals) (p. 95, Beyond Freedom and Dignity). Taken literally, this means that if, under a credible threat of torture, I force someone to say, repeatedly, that the Earth stands still, then I have changed his opinion. Comment is unnecessary, and we perceive at once the significance of the behavioral analysis that yield
04:28:35 <AaronSw> s this conclusion."
04:29:15 <sbp`> that is rather good. isn't Skinner one of WL's heroes?
04:29:19 <sbp`> you should send that to him :-)
04:29:31 <AaronSw> Skinner is one of his heroes?!
04:29:36 <AaronSw> Skinner is a truly despicable man, AFAICT
04:29:40 <sbp`> if you mean B.F., then yes
04:29:44 <sbp`> hang on a mo;
04:29:46 <AaronSw> B.F., yes
04:29:46 <sbp`> s/;/'/
04:29:53 <AaronSw> although Chomsky hinted that he might have some redeeming qualities
04:30:05 <AaronSw> but everything i've read of his is deeply noxious
04:30:08 <sbp`> http://boobam.org/pantheon.htm
04:30:11 <sbp`> he's in there
04:30:30 <AaronSw> wow
04:30:45 <sbp`> Korzybski's another slightly... interesting character
04:31:14 <AaronSw> i was just going to say
04:32:17 <sbp`> a non-aristotelian metaphysics I very much agree with, but Korzybski's approach is really quite nuts
04:32:28 <AaronSw> I mean, I think Skinner was just insane. Alfie Kohn tells a story that he once invited Skinner to his class (Kohn is perhaps Skinner's most prominent debunker) and after Skinner gave a lecture, Kohn joked that he was thankful for the environmental circumstances that reinforced the patterns of behavior that caused Skinner to come. Skinner didn't laugh, he just replied that he was thankful for them as well.
04:32:48 <sbp`> heh, oh man
04:33:46 <sbp`> oh well. at least we're in agreement, but I don't know what WL would say :-)
04:34:13 <AaronSw> I wonder if WL has read Skinner's _Walden Two_; I tried reading it but I just couldn't, but I'm really curious about it
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04:34:30 <AaronSw> It's this fictionalized utopia novel, but as far as I can tell it describes a dystopia
04:34:38 <AaronSw> which really has to be one of the weirdest literary things
04:34:38 <sbp`> Partch and Fuller are obviously clear geniuses, and I don't know Wolfensberger. it's an interesting pantheon
04:34:58 <AaronSw> a dystopian utopian novel
04:35:02 <sbp`> ah, I might ask him and relay for you, unless you want to go ahead yourself
04:35:07 <AaronSw> please do
04:35:53 <sbp`> also: http://uwimp.com/tap/appendix.htm
04:36:08 <sbp`> he mentions "The Behavior of Organisms" and "Beyond Freedom and Dignity" therein, but not "Walden Two"
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04:37:18 <AaronSw> I guess Walden Two sort of follows from Beyond Freedom and Dignity. I mean, if there's no freedom, why should you object to slavery?
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04:37:31 <Monty> howdy, Talliesin_
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04:38:18 <AaronSw> one of the things that really amazes me is that they take Skinner seriously here in the Psychology Department. AFAIK, not a single one of his claims ever held up -- it was just a total fraud
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04:38:44 <sbp`> huh, scary
04:38:47 <AaronSw> although I guess he was an improvement over Freud
04:39:04 <AaronSw> (actually, that may be unfair, I don't know much about Freud but apparently he did write based on some real people)
04:40:06 <sbp`> there are protoplasmic entities living under rocks in New Guinea that would be able to create psychological theories that are demonstratably a supreme improvement over Freud
04:40:41 <AaronSw> well, another psychologist in the department was trying to rehabilitate Freud the other day
04:40:50 <sbp`> rehabilitate?
04:40:51 <AaronSw> he said that he was unfairly dismissed because psychologists had "physics envy"
04:41:16 <AaronSw> you know "he really did some good work, he's gotten a bum rap, you should check him out"
04:41:21 <sbp`> is that the sciences are compoundative?
04:41:29 <AaronSw> ?
04:42:17 <sbp`> I'm not sure what you mean by physics envy and how it relates. the only thing I can think of is that physics and the hard sciences get furthered over time since all new discoveries are piled on top of the old ones, whereas in the social sciences that doesn't seem to happen as much
04:42:33 <sbp`> s/is that the/in that the/
04:42:56 <AaronSw> I think what he meant is that psychologists wanted to pretend to do actual science, like physicists do
04:43:09 <AaronSw> so they had to get rid of Freud since he was so blatantly unscientific
04:43:42 <sbp`> ah I see. though that principle does suggest that psychology ought to follow a scientific method; just that it'll probably need a bit of modification
04:44:08 <sbp`> I'm probably biased due to AI
04:44:13 <AaronSw> biased how?
04:45:19 <AaronSw> i have a really low opinion of all the social sciences except sociology (and, I guess, anthropology to some extent)
04:45:23 <sbp`> well, since I've been involved in trying to understand the mind by reinvention it's only natural to think that psychology can only be furthered by providing better mechanistic models of how the mind works rather than whatever subjective evidence and behavioural theories are around next
04:45:52 <sbp`> problem is, cognitive science and the like try to merge the two and haven't really been all that successful
04:46:16 <AaronSw> I found Lakoff's work pretty interesting
04:46:29 <AaronSw> he's a big cognitive scientist, apparently
04:46:43 <sbp`> I think Arnia mentions him a lot
04:46:53 <AaronSw> who's arnia?
04:47:07 <edsu> *** edsu is now known as edzz
04:47:55 <sbp`> ah yes. Arnia was trying to get me into event types: http://swhack.com/logs/2005-01-02#T03-29-14
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04:48:11 <sbp`> Arnia is Joe Geldart, a part time Swhacker and Linguistics student at the University of Durham
04:48:17 <crschmidt> ^olb Arnia
04:48:18 <julie> British; studying for a BSc (hons) in Computer Science at the University of Durham; founding partner of Netalley Networks LLP; member of the Plone UI team; visual designer and brand consultant; linguist
04:48:19 <MooseBot> crschmidt: sbp is a mastur of nothing!
04:48:31 <sbp`> my arse, MooseBot
04:48:31 <MooseBot> I don't have a clue.
04:48:35 <sbp`> clearly
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04:48:53 <AaronSw> and obviously the _On Intelligence_ stuff is a major breakthrough
04:49:13 <sbp`> I need to get my hands on a copy of that
04:49:19 <sbp`> * sbp` checks the library catalogue
04:49:27 <AaronSw> i mean, it was just so obvious after reading that book how to build a brain that i just had to. i'm surprised nobody else has yet
04:49:48 <AaronSw> you can download it online if you have to
04:50:28 <sbp`> heh. we have "On Intelligence" but... by Dockrell, W. B, 1970
04:50:33 <sbp`> oh neat. where from?
04:50:33 <AaronSw> heh
04:50:50 <AaronSw> http://ebooks.palmone.com/product/detail/17826 but there's a PDF one too, i think
04:51:36 <AaronSw> Microsoft Reader: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006A9SRU/
04:52:13 <sbp`> might as well buy the paperback
04:52:21 <sbp`> er, hardcover even
04:52:25 <sbp`> it's only 12.02
04:52:49 <AaronSw> yeah, if you can find it
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04:55:05 <sbp`> excellent review on http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805074562/qid=1107406317/ref=pd_ka_0/202-1023070-8143803
04:55:18 <sbp`> "Availability: usually dispatched within 24 hours."
04:55:29 <AaronSw> i like how it's written by "H. S. Jeff Jeff Jeff Hawkins"
04:55:42 <sbp`> heh, yes
04:55:50 <sbp`> as *well* as Jeff Hawkins
04:58:04 <AaronSw> is H.S. British for Her Surmajesty's?
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04:59:08 <sbp`> heh, heh
04:59:11 <sbp`> .acronym HS
04:59:31 <sbp`> http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=HS&Find=Find
04:59:41 <sbp`> it seems to think "High School"
05:00:15 <sbp`> though I'll go with "Hamish Sinclair"; fits better
05:02:07 <deltab> Highly Suspicious
05:02:47 <deltab> Homicidal Seagull
05:03:12 <deltab> and one that shoudl be obvious to sbp
05:04:41 <AaronSw> djb: "Of course, the test difficulty depends on what you're doing, and on how you're doing it. I'm constantly asking ``How much would I have to screw this up to write an incorrect function that passes these simple tests?'' Occasionally the answer is ``Not much,'' so I'll throw the code away and start over. It was probably perfect code, but that's not good enough."
05:05:48 <sbp`> heh! "Now he worries Willem will grow up speaking faux German."
05:05:58 <sbp`> deltab: point
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05:07:06 <sbp`> and wow at djb. I was thinking about his comment on tracking the kinds of bugs that you tend to make when you're coding, the other day
05:07:29 <sbp`> I made the same mistake twice in a row and I thought it was odd that I didn't take more notice not to do it again, and wondered how specifically djb copes with that
05:07:47 <AaronSw> I'm not sure what he means by that exactly, but it sounds sort of pathological.
05:07:50 <AaronSw> http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?selm=slrncvp1eg.170p.usenet@stoneport.math.uic.edu
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05:11:59 <AaronSw> ooh, here's another good one: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.crypt/msg/49c4cd60d948032d
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05:15:57 <Monty> hi MooseBot`, how ya doing?
05:15:59 <phenny> Monty: shh, don't let anyone know you're around!
05:16:02 <Monty> Sega fairy tales hates Greenlandic personality...
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05:18:56 <sbp`> * sbp` returns with food, checks out the URIs
05:19:11 <AaronSw> Am I a bad person because I get such pleasure out of watching djb intellectually beat people up?
05:20:17 <AaronSw> in particular, this thread is quite fun: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.crypt/browse_frm/thread/b8fca5743b5657f6/ca56e45152423405#ca56e45152423405
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05:25:15 <sbp`> not if it can be considered art. reading
05:26:37 <sbp`> actually, loading. this is huge!
05:27:16 <sbp`> <Firefox> Don't blame me if I melt the CPU.
05:27:22 <AaronSw> yeah, it's a big thread
05:27:25 <AaronSw> Jeff Hawkins: "If you look at the history of big obstacles in [] understanding our world, there's usually an intuitive assumption underlying them that's wrong. In the case of the Solar System it was intuitively obvious that the Earth was at the center of the Solar System and things moved around us, but that just turned out to be wrong. ... And it intuitively seems correct that the brain is just some sort of computer -- it just se
05:27:25 <AaronSw> ems natural. ... But it has undermined almost all of our work to build intelligent machines and understand thinking. It's just wrong ... the brain isn't like a computer at all."
05:28:57 <sbp`> I'm not sure it's really undermined it all, we just didn't (and don't) know, so we're iteratively trying better approaches all the time
05:29:50 <AaronSw> that's not Hawkins experience. he went to the AI Lab and said "i'd like to join you guys, I'm interested in understanding how the brain works" and they said "no way, we know how the brain works -- it's just a computer"
05:29:50 <sbp`> to put it another way, I doubt people will look back in a few centuries and go "how silly people were to try to emulate the brain with transistor-based computing!" in the same way that we go "how silly people were to think that the sun revolves around the earth!"
05:30:05 <AaronSw> i'm already saying that :)
05:30:13 <sbp`> hmm
05:30:16 <AaronSw> and my dad said that for years
05:30:55 <sbp`> well that's odd, surely. one only has to look at a single concrete subject of human thought such as NLP to realise that computing really, really sucks for that kind of problem
05:31:22 <BigJibby> sbp`, are you saying the earth revolves around the sun?
05:31:40 <AaronSw> imo, the flaw is not in thinking that a computer could do the work (since a computer can simulate it) but in thinking that all one would need to do is write the appropriate program
05:31:53 <AaronSw> this is where you get things like The Chinese Room paradox
05:31:56 <sbp`> BigJibby: relative to the Solar System, yes
05:32:10 <AaronSw> the reason, Hawkins argues, the brain is intelligent is precisely because it isn
05:32:12 <AaronSw> 't programmed
05:32:25 <BigJibby> sbp`, okay ...
05:32:32 <AaronSw> so it's absurd to think you could make an intelligent machine by writing specific programs to do vision, speech, etc. it's also a huge waste of time
05:32:50 <sbp`> well it depends on your defintion of computing. if you include it to mean stuff that the brain does then sure... :-)
05:34:21 <AaronSw> i didn't use the word computing
05:34:39 <sbp`> heh. I was just about to say that for example, you wouldn't write a Python program to do what the brain does, but you did. I'm really intrigued now
05:34:47 <sbp`> and no, but I did
05:35:34 <sbp`> I was just defending my use of it to mean current computer systems and all approaches that we have at the moment--neural nets included
05:35:49 <AaronSw> i'm really surprised nobody else has written a PyBrain
05:36:08 <sbp`> how big is it, character-wise?
05:36:23 <AaronSw> well, it's hardly finished -- it only does one level of the hierarchy and not even that
05:36:31 <AaronSw> i'd definitely release it if it did anything real
05:36:46 <sbp`> lisppaste2: url?
05:36:49 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
05:37:16 <sbp`> * sbp` dangles pastbins in front of AaronSw like a carrot in front of a donkey
05:37:25 <AaronSw> what for?
05:37:30 <sbp`> present and future bins too
05:37:32 <sbp`> for the code!
05:37:43 <AaronSw> i just said that it doesn't do anything real
05:38:19 <sbp`> I'm not sure what you mean by anything "real"
05:38:26 <AaronSw> useful
05:38:44 <AaronSw> it doesn't have python coloring
05:38:51 <lisppaste2> AaronSw pasted "intelligence.py" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/5495
05:38:53 <sbp`> yeah I know. that's irritating
05:39:00 <sbp`> but it's great at lisp!
05:39:11 <sbp`> (seriously; try some lisp. it's absolutely amazing)
05:39:14 <sbp`> and whoo! thanks
05:39:30 <AaronSw> really, it's nothing
05:39:35 <AaronSw> you shouldn't even look at it
05:41:55 <AaronSw> Jeff Hawkins: "This has been a long personal endeavor of mine. Twenty-five years ago ... I just fell in love with brains. ... I decided to dedicate my life to it. It has been a long road, it's up and down, it's actually not an easy thing to do, to say I'm going to work on large-scale theories of brain function. It was not something you could do in the 1980s. There was no place you could go. ... Nobody was doing the large-scale th
05:41:55 <AaronSw> eory. That's changed in only recent years and I started my institute, the Redwood Neuroscience Institute, to create a place where you could focus on this problem. And, I think, that's really all it took."
05:45:30 <sbp`> you're training it to recognize the difference between nouns and verbs?
05:45:38 <twe> Well, what's the difference between nouns and verbs?
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05:45:55 <AaronSw> that was a bit of an exaggeration
05:46:07 <AaronSw> and "a bit" is an underexaggeration
05:46:15 <sbp`> well, for your test set
05:46:27 <AaronSw> oh, probably
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05:46:53 <sbp`> heh. all it took was to found his own research institute? just that easy? :-)
05:47:37 <AaronSw> yeah. you'd think that after you made all that money founding a neuroscience institute would be easy, but he says that he had to be poked and prodded a lot
05:48:01 <AaronSw> but I guess I'd probably be the same
05:48:23 <AaronSw> i mean, it does seem like something that somebody else should be paying for
05:51:10 <sbp`> or should already have been
05:51:38 <AaronSw> right, but science is too screwed up for that
05:52:45 <AaronSw> on Skinner, http://web.archive.org/web/20040312082851/http://monkeyfist.com/tmp/BN/archive/essays/the_case_against_bf_skinner.html in general is sort of fun
05:53:01 <sbp`> * sbp` reads, having just gone through the djb thread
06:04:24 <sbp`> 'he is, furthermore, given to strange pronouncements such as the assertion that "the laws of science are descriptions of contingencies of reinforcement" (p. 189) -- which I happily leave to others to decode'
06:07:38 <sbp`> 'The immediate consequence is that the Skinnerian must lapse into mysticism (unexplained "similarities" and "generalization" of a sort that cannot be specified) as soon as the discussion touches the world of fact.' (after a particularly good argument)
06:08:04 <sbp`> a linguistic argument, funnily enough...
06:10:22 <d8uv> Argh
06:10:54 <d8uv> Apparently my parallel universe twin is being held hostage.
06:11:15 <sbp`> by whom?
06:11:29 <d8uv> Iraqi Insergents
06:11:41 <sbp`> makes sense
06:12:49 <d8uv> (Wondering if anyone at all is ever going to see the reference)
06:14:24 <sbp`> much more fun to just carry on believing that you're nuts
06:15:26 <d8uv> Hehe EXACTLY THE IMAGE I WANT TO BANANABABOONJUICE
06:15:38 <d8uv> I wonder when twe will say that
06:15:49 <d8uv> Or even the Monty
06:15:52 <Monty> Baby Spice's vile woman sucks spellbound impotent alcopops.
06:15:52 <twe> Were you talking about "if we can ridicule the fuck out of you, little girl." -- twe (according to monty).
06:15:54 <Monty> screw you
06:20:40 <MattRead> lol
06:36:01 <dmwaters> {global notice} Hi all, in about 25 mins, I'm going to start rebooting a couple of our servers for updates. This should only take about 5 mins at the most. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
06:52:13 <dmwaters> {global notice} Hi all, in about 10 mins, I will begin the server reboots. Any further messages for this will be given in wallops. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
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07:38:02 <zelazny.freenode.net> topic is: <+twe> [..] I'll bet there are just not enough random noise from monty? | <+Monty> In what way ?
07:38:02 <zelazny.freenode.net> Users on #swhack: loggy AaronSw thelsdj valmont Grantbow jsled_ xover Talliesin_ FloK +swhacker md-afk leandro +phenny +blogbot deltab xavier d8uv Cloud +sw_piespy edzz CaptSolo jessica GabeW schepers atariboy` themaximus_ eikeon_ kpreid_ +twe crschmidt +supybot MoiraA tav|offl1ne +teddybot bancus kandinski sbp`
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08:02:43 <AaronSw> so it looks like I've solved vorpal's disk space problems for good
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08:04:05 <Monty> yo bjoern_!
08:04:58 <bjoern_> Monty! How are you?
08:05:01 <Monty> <http://www.w3.org/2003/mediatypes#application/n3>].
08:05:01 <phenny> bjoern_: 04:50Z <yod> tell bjoern_ I agree, will put ACTIONs back in next minutes
08:05:31 <bjoern_> Monty, that sounds... very bad.
08:05:34 <Monty> I reckon Adam Reiniger + configurability = coloured :(
08:07:57 <AaronSw> reading "The Case Against B.F. Skinner" one cannot help but be amazed at how deep Skinner's psuedoscience has wormed itself into our consciousness
08:11:06 <AaronSw> one also gets quite a respect for sociology and wonders how it managed to escape
08:11:23 <AaronSw> perhaps because it had some awareness of the pressures of the system within it operates precisely because it studies that system?
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08:22:01 <AaronSw> <sbp`> not if it can be considered art
08:22:19 <AaronSw> by that reasoning, enjoying boxing or something is OK because it's an art
08:22:51 <AaronSw> boxing's a bad example. say, talented gang violence
08:23:10 <AaronSw> can one enjoy the art but not the impact?
08:23:17 <sbp`> is talented gang violence even an art?
08:23:31 <AaronSw> is usenet argument?
08:23:38 <sbp`> totally!
08:23:46 <sbp`> (but only when djb's doing it)
08:24:05 <AaronSw> the problem is that the artistry is inevitably tied up with the punishment
08:24:25 <sbp`> the difference anyway is that I don't think you argue on usenet without expecting to be argued back with. it's not that djb is punishing his opponent, just pointing out their logical arguments in a very insightful manner
08:24:28 <AaronSw> one cannot simply disassociate and say, oh that argument is talented, because the talent comes from the fact his opponent is being demolished
08:25:19 <AaronSw> That's a good point. I guess it comes back to my tension between speaking your mind and John Holt
08:25:24 <sbp`> well, imagine if instead of gang violence you did exactly the same thing but with robots. would be it art then?
08:25:26 <AaronSw> I don't think I ever resolved that
08:25:32 <twe> So i guess it comes to be speaking at the world is all like... Whoa. Cool.
08:25:33 <sbp`> speaking your mind and John Holt?
08:25:38 <AaronSw> yes, it would be art with robots
08:25:51 <AaronSw> but i'm not sure the moral problem wouldd go away
08:25:53 <sbp`> and coreographed in a movie I suppose too
08:25:58 <AaronSw> ditto
08:26:18 <sbp`> what if the movie gave a greater moral awareness of gang warefare?
08:26:27 <sbp`> then the movie would be a great art, and morally responsible
08:26:37 <AaronSw> I just realized that my favorite film is Kill Bill so i'm being sort of hypocritical
08:26:48 <sbp`> could the original act of gang violence that it was modelled on (perhaps the coreographer saw it on a street and it touched them) then be considered art?
08:26:49 <sbp`> heh
08:27:00 <sbp`> s/warefare/warfare/
08:27:04 <sbp`> .gc warezfare
08:27:10 <kandinski> sadly, torture *can* be an art form
08:27:12 <phenny> warezfare: 0
08:27:14 <kandinski> * kandinski waves
08:27:26 <kandinski> I mean, art is orthogonal with its social or moral virtues
08:27:31 <sbp`> yes, I think the fact of wh... heh
08:27:39 <sbp`> I was going to say exactly that but less tersely
08:27:47 <AaronSw> yeah, so torture is a good example to consider
08:27:58 <AaronSw> you can't really disassociate the art there at all
08:28:05 <kandinski> social: you can have uplifting masterpieces, uplifting dreck, sociopathic masterpieces, sociopathic dreck
08:28:15 <kandinski> the four quadrants are populated
08:28:23 <kandinski> I was merely making a very extreme point
08:28:34 <sbp`> just like the four quadrants of the gal[STAR TREK MUSIC PLAYS]
08:28:48 <AaronSw> so I guess you can admire the art in evil things
08:29:02 <sbp`> well, just because it's art it doesn't mean that you have to admire it, surely?
08:29:08 <kandinski> torture is in the moral sphere, you can have highly amoral art that is good, and highly amoral "art" that is self-indulgent horses' piss
08:29:30 <AaronSw> no, art means you _can_ admire it and i do admire djb's work
08:29:31 <AaronSw> so the question then becomes whether what djb does is evil and that brings us back to the Holt tension
08:29:40 <sbp`> does it even make sense to "admire" art? if we think that art is something that you can quantifiably say "that's art" for, it doesn't have to be admired to be art any more than I have to think a rock is a rock for it to be a rock
08:29:43 <kandinski> well, obviously you and I don't admire torture and art
08:30:17 <sbp`> so I suppose you have to weigh whether the positive benefits of the art itself outweigh the negativities that are inherent to it being produced
08:30:28 <AaronSw> i think i could admire torture for its artistic purposes; that doesn't mean i'd support its production
08:30:29 <twe> I find the reference to why it happened, but i still think i'd prefer it being produced.
08:30:34 <kandinski> and would even vote to have the police supress any torture, no matter how exquisitely contrived and ingenious and no matter how many people actually think it is part of their culture
08:30:41 <kandinski> Aaron, you got ahead of me
08:30:55 <kandinski> oops, bad line above
08:30:57 <kandinski> well, obviously you and I don't admire torture and art
08:30:58 <sbp`> again, I'm not sure about this admiration part. you're saying that art *can* be admired; but why would you not admire something if it's art?
08:31:05 <kandinski> s/and/as/ <-- makes more sense
08:31:14 <kandinski> well, "art" is not absolute
08:31:31 <AaronSw> because it's bad art
08:31:38 <kandinski> interesting
08:31:41 <sbp`> so there are good arts and bad arts now?
08:31:51 <AaronSw> yeah. if i make a scribble it's art but it's not very good
08:31:55 <kandinski> I didn't know that either. I must have missed the memo.
08:31:59 <AaronSw> whereas someone can use the same meidum to make a nice drawing
08:32:07 <kandinski> if Picasso makes a scribble it's art but very good?
08:32:11 <sbp`> so... I suppose that there can be art in the form of torture that's either good or bad?
08:32:18 <AaronSw> right
08:32:21 <kandinski> so scribbles are art by virtue of their medum?
08:32:23 <kandinski> medium?
08:32:35 <kandinski> and good or bad by virtue of the talent of their makers?
08:32:38 <AaronSw> i don't know if it's simply the medium, but i think scribbles can be art
08:32:44 <AaronSw> and it's not the maker, it's the production
08:32:52 <kandinski> yes, so can dishes of fish
08:32:57 <AaronSw> whether picasso or i made the scribble is irrelevant
08:32:58 <sbp`> and only good torture art is admirable, but neither form of torture art are irreprehensible
08:33:02 <kandinski> Gastronomy is said to be an art
08:33:07 <kandinski> AaronSw: in that I agree, mostly
08:33:23 <sbp`> I don't think it's irrelevant all the time: I think you have to consider works of art in their larger perspective
08:33:32 <AaronSw> so I want to move on to the Holt tension
08:33:39 <kandinski> although from a sociological perspective, authorship and attributioin does take part in the assignation of the category of art or "good" art
08:33:49 <sbp`> "J'accuse!" would've been nonsense if it were written fifty years before...
08:34:00 <sbp`> anyway. Holt Tension
08:34:04 <kandinski> oh, please update me: what "Holt tension"?
08:34:30 <AaronSw> so, there is the desire, and it seems to me appropriate, to tell someone who has a stupid idea that their idea is stupid
08:34:43 <AaronSw> but there is also the possibility that this will hurt their feelings
08:34:59 <AaronSw> so there is the thought that if you tell people their ideas are stupid from a young age, they will get used to it
08:35:09 <AaronSw> but this seems to contradict the work of John Holt, who studied how children learn
08:35:09 <sbp`> heh
08:35:24 <AaronSw> so I'm not sure what to do when someone has a stupid idea
08:35:45 <AaronSw> but i'd like to know
08:36:09 <AaronSw> (in case it isn't obvious, the relevance to djb is that he was showing why someone's idea was stupid)
08:36:11 <sbp`> well it's not a binary thing. saying to someone "that code is stupid; you're a moron" is much worse than showing ways in which the code is broken, ways in which it can be improved, how the author could've done better in this instance and how to avoid it in future etc.
08:36:24 <kandinski> I thank my good friends when they say "now that is stupid"
08:36:35 <kandinski> of course I also ask for explanation, sometimes a lot of explanation
08:36:39 <AaronSw> sbp`, djb managed to artfully combine both, I think ;)
08:36:44 <sbp`> right. I think djb was in between there; he didn't say it was just stupid, but he was rather brusque. again, I think that's appropriate to the medium
08:36:46 <sbp`> right!
08:36:52 <twe> I think that's appropriate to the medium.
08:36:57 <sbp`> *and* I think it's alright on usenet
08:37:03 <sbp`> even twe agrees
08:37:04 <AaronSw> i don't think you can just blame things on the medium
08:37:06 <kandinski> well, usenet is a literary genre
08:37:12 <twe> Jess does too == jess agrees too.
08:37:22 <AaronSw> even Jess!
08:37:27 <kandinski> "brusque" is one of its main conventions
08:37:42 <kandinski> (don't trust twee: his hearsay is not that good)
08:37:46 <AaronSw> let's put aside the medium for a second, since I don't think that's fair
08:37:48 <twe> Twee twe tewttewtwt tew we.
08:37:51 <sbp`> I'm not blaming anything on the medium. I'm saying that if you participate in USENET, you come to expect a certain type of debate, and you take it in good humour, whereas if you had the same conversation with a random person on the train you'd be lacking the context to say that no disrespect is intended
08:38:04 <kandinski> well, sbp`, the other day you went almost postal when I suggested tags for noets
08:38:09 <sbp`> hmm? you can't just a priori decide that it's unfair when I maintain it's the critical point
08:38:11 <AaronSw> sbp`, but that doesn't change its impact
08:38:33 <kandinski> took me almost a day of tracking you down to get an explanation why it was dumb (it was, mostly. I still think there is some use to it... but not sure which)
08:38:43 <AaronSw> if I'm offended, I'm offended whether I'm on a train or on the net. it may be more socially acceptable in one or the other but I don't think it changes the impact on me
08:38:45 <kandinski> ah, and you have a query going that you...
08:38:58 <sbp`> sure it does. if I say "oh man, you're such a weirdo :-)" with a grin and a smile in a friendly context where we're joking, it's a lot different to a jock sneering the same words to you in a corridor at college
08:39:09 <AaronSw> well, those are different messages!
08:39:24 <sbp`> right. and the context changes the message of what djb is saying
08:39:34 <AaronSw> if a jock said it with a grin and a smile in the corridor at college it would mean the same thing!
08:39:46 <AaronSw> where does the medium come into it?
08:39:58 <sbp`> well the context there is the emotional tone
08:40:06 <sbp`> the words, the blank words, are the same
08:40:16 <AaronSw> so you're arguing that the medium adds an emotional tone?
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08:40:28 <sbp`> no, it's just an analogy not an equivalence
08:40:33 <AaronSw> I think the emotional tone of djb's message was clear and not supplied by the medium
08:40:43 <kandinski> context is message, not just changes it
08:40:44 <AaronSw> I don't understand the analogy.
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08:40:57 <AaronSw> right, tone and context are part of the message, not the medium
08:41:03 <kandinski> it is like sayin that putting in a "no" modifies the message. it makes it a different message.
08:41:06 <kandinski> right.
08:41:12 <sbp`> well that's fine since I'm not talking about the emotion of his message. all I'm saying is that the carrier medium contributes to the semantic interpretation of a message
08:41:23 <kandinski> tone is not context
08:41:29 <kandinski> tone is phatic communication
08:41:45 <AaronSw> well if it changes the interpretation of his message then it's assumed and we can move on to discuss the message, no?
08:41:47 <kandinski> context is context: "I want it all"
08:41:52 <kandinski> guy in an alley?
08:41:56 <kandinski> your girlfriend?
08:41:59 <kandinski> your little kid?
08:42:04 <sbp`> okay, as long as you remember to keep in mind the altered interpretation
08:42:15 <AaronSw> and what's the altered interpretation?
08:42:18 <kandinski> when, where do your gf or your kid say "I want it all?"
08:42:30 <kandinski> care to point me to dajobe's message?
08:42:34 <AaronSw> kandinski, please stop with that example -- bad mental images
08:42:35 <sbp`> the altered interpretation is that the harshness is not to be considered as a mark of disrespect
08:43:03 <AaronSw> granted
08:43:07 <kandinski> AaronSw: sorry, I had already stopped
08:43:22 <kandinski> yep, harsh is part of the territory
08:43:31 <AaronSw> still, people can get hurt by such harsh comments, no?
08:43:37 <kandinski> like someone shouting at you and putting their face next to yours in a noisy nightclub
08:43:37 <AaronSw> what's the best way of dealing with that?
08:43:58 <kandinski> not aggressive (what you would think of that behaviour in the street), just a way to make the point across in that context
08:44:35 <sbp`> yeah, but I think it's a very hard thing to judge. for example, the person to whom you're writing might be going through a divorce and trying to go back (foolishly!) to usenet to take his mind off it; in that case, he might temporarily be more sensitive than he would usually be on usenet
08:45:10 <AaronSw> I mean, to simplify, you can just imagine it face to face. someone says something, I say "oh no, that's stupid"
08:45:19 <sbp`> I suppose that the best way to deal with it is through experience; to try to read as much as possible how the person you're communicating with is responding, and also to always avoid going too far such as ad homineming etc.
08:45:21 <AaronSw> I think it's a pretty natural reaction to feel bad about that
08:45:44 <sbp`> so why not provide more constructive criticism, again?
08:45:53 <AaronSw> like what?
08:46:09 <AaronSw> fine, so I say "oh no, that won't work because of X"
08:46:15 <AaronSw> i think the emotional impact is about the same
08:46:32 <AaronSw> esp., and this may be the key, if i'm in a position of respect/power
08:46:36 <sbp`> depends also how seriously someone takes their idea. if I said I'm going to try to build a rocket that'll fly to the moon in my backyard, I think I'd be rather foolish to take your advice that it's "stupid" and feel bad about it
08:46:49 <kandinski> also, think of other possible responses
08:47:01 <kandinski> I get incredibly frustrated when I am ignored in threads
08:47:17 <AaronSw> should I really sugarcoat it just because the person might get upset? isn't there a benefit to clear discourse?
08:47:19 <kandinski> I would rather have a "no that is stupid and won't do" than a vacuum
08:47:29 <sbp`> hmm. no, I think saying "stupid" has more of a negative impact because you feel disrespected that the other agent hasn't even gone to the trouble to provide constructive criticism
08:47:43 <kandinski> AaronSw, there is something called "viciousness" and "ad hominem"
08:48:01 <kandinski> if you call the idea "stupid", again it is part of the culture of usenet
08:48:10 <sbp`> I'd say being constructive is more clear than saying "it's stupid" with no rationale except in the circumstances such as my moon rocket example when it really is stupid beyond belief :-)
08:48:19 <kandinski> anyone with some experience will realise that this is the par for the course criticism
08:48:39 <AaronSw> we've switched from stupid to "because of X"
08:48:43 <AaronSw> where X is pretty obvious
08:48:45 <kandinski> <example> five reasons why your idea is stupid:
08:49:11 <kandinski> (allowing number five to be really sarcastic and cutting)
08:49:29 <kandinski> also, how stupid is the idea, and how dangerous?
08:49:38 <sbp`> well the reasoning behind saying "because of X" is to try to get the person to abandon the idea, right? otherwise, why tell them? if you don't tell them *why* then it seems like you're just setting out to hurt their feelings rather than to actually provide help to them
08:49:58 <MoiraA> morning
08:50:03 <MoiraA> still up sbp?
08:50:06 <sbp`> hey Moira
08:50:08 <sbp`> yep indeed
08:50:16 <MoiraA> do you never sleep ? :)
08:50:18 <AaronSw> well, them or people listening
08:50:20 <sbp`> heh, heh
08:50:42 <sbp`> people listening?
08:51:20 <AaronSw> yeah, like Usenet readers
08:51:35 <AaronSw> djb: "This is heresy to people living in 36-bit la-la land. Fortunately, it's a felony for those people to distribute compilers to the general public. Anyway, they haven't written any compilers for years; they're too busy writing obsolete language specifications."
08:51:43 <AaronSw> earlier tonight, actually
08:52:08 <sbp`> heh. that is quite funny
08:52:14 <kandinski> hmm, quite cutting too
08:52:29 <kandinski> dismissive, cutting, but also informative
08:52:59 <kandinski> I get an idea of who these people are, and it is my first exposure to the debate, and I don't know djb except through #swhack
08:53:32 <sbp`> yeah, I only know of him through Aaron too
08:54:05 <kandinski> sorry, sbp has explained djb is not dajobe
08:54:13 <kandinski> all those Hebrew lessons really fucked me up
08:54:13 <AaronSw> ah, yeah
08:54:24 <kandinski> that and my particular brand of dyslexia, heh
08:57:01 <AaronSw> anyway, i'm tempted to come down on the side of being blunt, for aesthetic reasons I have trouble articulating, but that bothers me because it goes against my moral/political beliefs about being nice to people
08:57:24 <AaronSw> i guess it's sort of like condoning torture because it's so pretty
08:57:48 <AaronSw> which seems more obviously wrong
08:57:50 <kandinski> Aaron, you are terse to the point of blunt sumtimes
08:58:02 <kandinski> well, it is in the same continuum
08:58:25 <AaronSw> i guess the difference is that theoretically people can adjust their response to critcism, but not to torture
08:58:25 <kandinski> but niceness is going out of your way not to harm people
08:58:34 <sbp`> I still think it's not such a black and white situation, but certainly if people are aware of your writing style they should be less offended by extraordinary bluntness
08:58:39 <kandinski> torture is going out of your way in order to harm people
08:58:47 <AaronSw> so there's the question: can people be less offended?
08:58:49 <sbp`> e.g. anyone aware of your Honesty Badge idea, etc.
08:58:49 <kandinski> the neutral (just not doing anything) is bluntness
08:58:53 <AaronSw> can they choose to be less offended?
08:58:53 <kandinski> RMS is an example
08:59:02 <kandinski> he just doesn't go out of his fucking way at all
08:59:16 <sbp`> sure. I think I'd take offense at your emails sometimes if I didn't know you. in fact, what happens is the exact reverse: I admire the amazing terseness
08:59:19 <AaronSw> and can we help people be less offended?
08:59:27 <AaronSw> how?
08:59:49 <kandinski> well, Aaron, speaking for myself, I have chosen not to at your terseness because I knew you through sbp
08:59:55 <sbp`> usually if someone gives me a one-liner I think they're fobbing me off, whereas with you I know you've perfected compacting all that you want to say into the shortest space possible (and moreover that you're having issues with email volume lately)
09:00:05 <kandinski> but also (and this ties to what I said about usenet culture) because that is what Cory does too
09:00:15 <sbp`> and I think of it as being as much of an art form as my code golf things; wypy etc.
09:00:24 <kandinski> and what I end up doing with bp readers who write asking stuff that is already in the faqs
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09:01:20 <AaronSw> I had a great email the other day where I responded "Oops. Sorry. Fixed. Thanks."
09:01:41 <sbp`> OSFT in future? :-)
09:01:46 <AaronSw> i was just going to suggest that!
09:01:52 <sbp`> shame it can't be Sorry. Oops. etc.
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09:02:41 <kandinski> I do that so often I should shorten it to
09:02:44 <AaronSw> submitted to acronymfinder
09:02:45 <kandinski> You know...
09:02:48 <sbp`> heh, heh
09:02:54 <kandinski> OSFT
09:03:08 <kandinski> heh, that is awesome. Birth Of An Acronym
09:03:15 <kandinski> BOAA. Should I submit it too?
09:03:43 <sbp`> that's already the Berkeley Organization for Animal Advocacy
09:03:54 <kandinski> blast them
09:04:08 <kandinski> ok, first we kill all the animals, then we reuse their acronyms
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09:04:26 <kandinski> that is doubly good because it also gives them a reason to exist while we are making them disappear
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09:10:52 <sbp`> woah: http://www.livescience.com/technology/050202_light_show.html
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09:22:56 <kandinski> wathing Strange Days:
09:23:04 <kandinski> a) I so want to marry Angela Basset
09:23:26 <kandinski> b) Kathryn Bigelow is good
09:23:53 <kandinski> c) this is 10 years old this year, and it still plays *true*
09:24:20 <kandinski> I wouldn't even mind getting my ass *kicked* by Angela Basset, she rocks so in this film.
09:25:56 <kandinski> *** kandinski has changed the topic to: OMG I GOT ANGELA BASSET INMY COMPUTOR!
09:25:56 <AaronSw> well, it''s been nice seeing you all again. i guess i should sleep
09:26:28 <kandinski> * kandinski waves at AaronSw
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09:27:52 <sbp`> whoops, missed him. cheers Aaron
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09:55:19 <deltab> kandinski: notice the phrase "right hear, right now", as sampled by Fatboy Slim
09:55:29 <deltab> gah, "right here"
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09:56:17 <kandinski> yes
09:56:52 <kandinski> <Angela> "This is real life. This is right here, right now"
09:57:13 <kandinski> hmm
09:57:32 <kandinski> and he asks her "have you ever loved someone who didn't love you back"?
09:57:41 <kandinski> the look on her eyes, she could murder him
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11:28:26 <eaon> RA RA RASPUTING, LOVER OF THE RUSSIAN QUEEN
11:28:32 <eaon> damnit
11:30:29 <kandinski> Boney M rule
11:45:30 <kandinski> *** kandinski has changed the topic to: <kandinski> I don't think 'pwned' means what you think it does
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12:24:12 <crschmidt> I do not think that pwned means what it think you means would be more true to the original.
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12:26:45 <kandinski> in soviet russia, maybe
12:26:57 <crschmidt> hahha: http://www.applegeeks.com/
12:27:08 <crschmidt> hawk forgot the cardinal rule. Do not eat ipod shuffle
12:27:18 <kandinski> *** kandinski has changed the topic to: I don't think 'pwned' means what you think it means
12:27:23 <kandinski> better?
12:28:59 <crschmidt> * crschmidt shrugs.
12:29:11 <crschmidt> I liked the "that" before 'pwned', if it was a play off princess bride
12:30:20 <kandinski> it was a kind of play
12:30:40 <kandinski> but yeah, feel free to change it yourself
12:30:48 <crschmidt> * crschmidt shrugs.
12:30:53 <crschmidt> its' your general topic :)
12:30:53 <kandinski> it no longer is a quot by me
12:31:05 <kandinski> :P
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13:35:55 <xover> .w pwned
13:36:08 <phenny> I couldn't find pwned in WordNet.
13:36:53 <xover> .gc pwned
13:36:56 <phenny> pwned: 159,000
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13:40:00 <DrBacchus> phenny: tell Morbus Nyeah
13:40:02 <phenny> DrBacchus: I'll pass that on for you when morbus is around.
13:41:52 <xover> * xover wonders whether Noro/Norwalk will infect over IRC...
13:42:12 <xover> * xover sneezes at everyone...
13:42:41 <DrBacchus> eww
13:43:02 <xover> * xover hugs DrBacchus...
13:43:23 <DrBacchus> And I just got over my cold.
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13:43:51 <xover> See? And now you get to spend two days hugging the toilet bowl. Lucky you! :-)
13:44:18 <DrBacchus> rock on
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13:45:25 <xover> If anyone asks, just tell `em you've been on a three day bender. That way they'll think you da shit instead of running away as fast as possible.
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13:46:30 <DrBacchus> Wow. That's really great advice.<
