00:01:40 <BigJibby> BigJibby (~matt@1Cust20.tnt4.dial.mtl1.uunet.ca) has joined #swhack
00:02:04 <JibberJim> "A 99 like a 69 but 30 worse!"
00:07:12 <uche> phenny, tell sbp that one way to get a small flavor of Mike Brown's breadth and depth is at http://skew.org/xml/ (the skew.org XML & XSLT resources)
00:07:14 <phenny> uche: I'll pass that on for you when sbp is around.
00:08:06 <fap3> fap3 (~enki@213.235.202.172) has joined #swhack
00:08:06 <Monty> hi fap3
00:08:46 <fap3> fap3 has quit (Client Quit)
00:09:06 <uche> phenny, tell sbp that Mike Brown is like chimezie: he doesn't promote himself to the extent of his abilities
00:09:08 <phenny> uche: I'll pass that on for you when sbp is around.
00:21:21 <chimezie> :)
00:21:51 <crschmidt> uche: by the way, I never got around to filtering out chimezie from planet swhack. Luckily, he's here now, so I don't have to bother.
00:21:56 <chimezie> i need a vaccation too
00:22:07 <chimezie> * chimezie ducks the blow
00:22:33 <JibberJim> that's empire building syndicate people you want to be here, then they'll join to see why they're syndicated!
00:23:09 <chimezie> * chimezie will bbabl
00:27:44 <uche> crschmidt, yesh, but it was really only an issue because all the posts were labeled as "Uche Ogbuji"
00:28:22 <BigJibby> Monty, we won!
00:28:24 <Monty> Essentially, keybinding is skipping!
00:28:26 <uche> I think Planet xmlhack's approach is the best:
00:28:37 <uche> Just say "Uche and Chimezie Ogbuji"
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00:30:55 <crschmidt> uche: ah, will do that then
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01:21:35 <Monty> lo valmont
01:21:41 <Talliesin> Talliesin (~Talliesin@83.71.71.55) has joined #swhack
01:21:41 <Monty> lo Talliesin
01:28:14 <MoiraA> lo Monty
01:28:16 <Monty> bowling-alley is buggered and shipped.
01:30:37 <bjoern_> where to Monty?
01:30:38 <Monty> Does that question interest you ?
01:30:43 <bjoern_> yes Monty
01:30:44 <Monty> cruel joke
01:30:56 <bjoern_> true Monty... anyway, where to?
01:30:56 <Monty> What is it you really want to know ?
01:31:06 <bjoern_> Why are you up so late Monty?
01:31:10 <Monty> crschmidt, yesh, but it is nutella it doesn't look too hot to stop conversation
01:31:26 <bjoern_> right Monty...
01:31:30 <Monty> silent red hairbrush fondles perspiring clumsy overhead projector :P
01:37:10 <kpreid> [[[
01:37:27 <kpreid> {There exists} a class of grocery stores colloquially known as "used food stores."
01:37:30 <kpreid> They are rock-bottom outlets for cheap packaged food: Obscure regional brands, flavors and varieties of national brands that didn't make it in the market, and gray-area items like cereal that is still within its freshness date but has an outdated promo item (e.g., a Christmas music CD, Secrets of Atlantis toy).
01:37:36 <kpreid> ]]] — http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002328.html#15795
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01:43:23 <MoiraA> lo sbp
01:43:29 <MoiraA> how's you?
01:44:12 <MoiraA> heh I just got a bot working
01:44:18 <MoiraA> quite an achievement for me
01:44:33 <MoiraA> it only does !seen right now but it's progress
01:44:35 <jetscreamer> \o/
01:44:58 <MoiraA> I have a talkz tcl script but it seems to be throwing up rubbish
01:45:07 <MoiraA> changed the name
01:45:11 <MoiraA> pita that was
01:45:21 <MoiraA> editing the config file
01:45:25 <sbp> hey there Moira
01:45:28 <MoiraA> this is on someone else's server
01:45:36 <sbp> not too bad, thanks. just checking out http://skew.org/xml/
01:45:39 <MoiraA> so I'm using putty and having to get past their login
01:45:44 <sbp> how was/is .no?
01:45:59 <MoiraA> norway?
01:45:59 <MoiraA> fantastic
01:46:07 <MoiraA> got some pics I'm busy reducing in size etc and enhancing so not on website yet
01:46:15 <MoiraA> will produce a page of photos
01:46:18 <MoiraA> freezing though
01:46:27 <MoiraA> docking here felt like the tropics in comparison
01:49:10 <MoiraA> few photos
01:49:16 <MoiraA> got so many to develop though
01:49:47 <MoiraA> http://www.moiraatkinson.co.uk.May05_Norway 026.jpg
01:49:59 <MoiraA> apologies
01:50:08 <MoiraA> that doesn't work
01:50:41 <sbp> spam: "Malke Money for your Opinions"
01:50:46 <sbp> why should they have all the money?
01:50:52 <MoiraA> http://www.moiraatkinson.co.uk/May05_Norway 026.jpg
01:51:04 <MoiraA> sugar
01:51:07 <sbp> ooh, fishies
01:51:13 <sbp> sugar?
01:51:15 <MoiraA> you saw it?
01:51:24 <MoiraA> yeah that was a market
01:51:27 <MoiraA> you picked your fish
01:51:36 <MoiraA> and they killed it there and then so it was fresh
01:51:42 <MoiraA> I got a 404
01:52:28 <sbp> aw, poor things. they look so pretty
01:52:38 <MoiraA> how come I can't view them
01:52:55 <kpreid> ahem
01:53:13 <kpreid> http://www.moiraatkinson.co.uk/May05_Norway%20026.jpg
01:53:13 <sbp> Moira: http://www.moiraatkinson.co.uk/May05_Norway%20026.jpg
01:53:17 <sbp> heh
01:53:21 <MoiraA> ah k
01:53:26 <MoiraA> should have added that
01:53:32 <MoiraA> oh well
01:53:40 <kpreid> colorful!
01:53:51 <MoiraA> yes but to them it;s a way of keeping your dinner fresh
01:53:53 <sbp> see any aurorae?
01:53:57 <MoiraA> nah
01:54:04 <sbp> a shame
01:54:04 <MoiraA> was bad weather
01:54:08 <MoiraA> raid
01:54:11 <MoiraA> rain
01:54:12 <MoiraA> wind
01:54:16 <MoiraA> cold
01:54:20 <MoiraA> cloudy etc
01:54:24 <MoiraA> and a lot of daylight
01:54:33 <MoiraA> hope to do better in the shetlands in october
01:54:51 <sbp> it'll be a lot of nightdark there, no?
01:56:17 <MoiraA> in october, yes
01:56:32 <MoiraA> not the best time for the aurora but I don't fancy the holiday in December
01:56:33 <sbp> "from the must-resist-comment-about-evil dept." - http://slashdot.org/articles/05/05/23/0022207.shtml?tid=217&tid=1
01:56:42 <sbp> it'd be rad!
01:56:52 <sbp> twilight walks all day long
01:56:54 <MoiraA> I subscribe to aurora watch
01:57:01 <MoiraA> been a couple of red alerts recently
01:57:13 <MoiraA> high sunspot activity and solar flares
01:57:18 <MoiraA> but no northern lights here
01:59:41 <MoiraA> http://www.moiraatkinson.co.uk.May05_Norway%20028.jpg
01:59:55 <MoiraA> jeez
01:59:57 <MoiraA> that's wrong too
02:02:25 <sbp> got it, nontheless
02:02:35 <sbp> cool mix of architecture
02:03:04 <sbp> paneling on the right, concrete on the left
02:03:21 <sbp> weather doesn't look too bad, either!
02:03:22 <Anical> Try a 4-letter station code (see http://weather.noaa.gov/weather/curcond.html for locations and codes)
02:03:26 <sbp> heh
02:03:55 <ows> night
02:04:24 <crschmidt> weather kmht?
02:04:26 <Anical> (kmht) Conditions at 0; Dewpoint: 46 F (8 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29 in. Hg (1006 hPa); Relative Humidity: 87%; Sky conditions: Mostly Cloudy; Temperature: 10 C (50 F);Visibility: 8 mile(s) (12 km); Wind: from the Northwest (320 degrees) at 3 MPH (3 KT) gusting to 0 MPH (0 KT)
02:04:36 <ows> ows has quit ("Leaving")
02:04:39 <crschmidt> 3mph gusting to 0mph
02:04:40 <crschmidt> awesome
02:09:00 <sbp> ha!
02:12:38 <sbp> hmm, I wonder if AaronSw could reimplement his HTMLDiff using http://www.logilab.org/projects/xmldiff?
02:13:51 <adamhill> weather kads?
02:13:53 <Anical> (kads) Conditions at 0; Dewpoint: 66 F (19 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29 in. Hg (1010 hPa); Relative Humidity: 43%; Sky conditions: ; Temperature: 33 C (91 F);Visibility: 13 mile(s) (20 km); Wind: from the Southeast (150 degrees) at 9 MPH (8 KT) gusting to 0 MPH (0 KT)
02:15:12 <crschmidt> I think that the weather stuff is pretty funked up
02:15:21 <crschmidt> my infobot gives non 0s for gust on both those
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02:27:26 <BigJibby> crschmidt, you use wordpress right?
02:27:30 <crschmidt> yep
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02:27:56 <BigJibby> http://mattread.com/test_opml.php?url=http://crschmidt.net/blog/wp-links-opml.php :)
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02:41:05 <chimezie> sbp: did you develop pyrple.Graph to work with an explicit hash / pattern table for convenience sake or because you had no other alternative representation?
02:41:45 <chimezie> pyrple.Graph.maps and pyrple.Graph.patterns look eerily like a multi-columned index on an RDB table off s/p/o
02:42:09 <chimezie> .mw morphology
02:42:11 <phenny> Entry: mor·phol·o·gy /mor-'fä-l&-jE/, noun
02:42:15 <phenny> Entry: 1 a : a branch of biology that deals with the form and structure of animals and plants b : the form and structure of an organism or any of its parts2 a : a study and description of [...]
02:42:37 <chimezie> .ety metaphysics
02:42:41 <phenny> metaphysics: Middle English metaphesyk, from Medieval Latin metaphysica
02:43:23 <sbp> chimezie: it was the best internal structure I could think of for querying at the time
02:43:35 <sbp> see also http://inamidst.com/proj/rdf/rdfdb.py
02:48:40 <chimezie> does that particular api work with pyrple.Graph?
02:48:40 <sbp> no, it's a different API
02:48:40 <sbp> i.e. a transitional phase between pyrple and its successor
02:48:40 <sbp> a taste of things to come! :-)
02:49:04 <chimezie> .g xml api xupdate
02:49:06 <phenny> xml api xupdate: http://www.xmldatabases.org/projects/XUpdate-UseCases/
02:51:09 <MoiraA> ok, I'm off to bed
02:51:11 <MoiraA> nn
02:51:29 <chimezie> i imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to craft an RDF:DB API equivalent of XML:DB
02:51:54 <Talliesin> Talliesin has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
02:52:07 <chimezie> to abstract RDF stores from agents
02:53:02 <chimezie> 6-10 interfaces tops
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05:06:51 <uche> phenny, tell chimezie "an RDF:DB API equivalent of XML:DB" would be rad
05:06:53 <phenny> uche: I'll pass that on for you when chimezie is around.
05:07:03 <uche> We need such a tell-bot for #4suite
05:12:14 <sbp> on Freenode? I can throw her in there for you if you want
05:13:06 <uche> Oh
05:13:07 <uche> Sure
05:13:15 <uche> Thanks
05:13:36 <sbp> no problem
05:14:23 <Ash> sbp
05:14:25 <Ash> you are crushed
05:14:51 <Ash> I am watching Ali G show
05:15:27 <sbp> there's no way I can be crushed if you're watching Ali G
05:15:44 <sbp> you just can't do both things at the same time. Ali G is too awesome for that
05:15:57 <Ash> hehehe
05:15:59 <Ash> man it is so funny
05:16:14 <Ash> I also watched 'Ali G Indahouse' the other night
05:17:22 <Ash> martin freeman killed me in there
05:17:50 <uche> Ali G makes me cringe
05:17:55 <uche> But he's a genius
05:19:43 <sbp> he was very well received here five years ago
05:19:50 <sbp> past his zenith now, I'm sure. needs to come up with new stuff
05:20:00 <sbp> got a lot of flak for appearing on Parkinson in-character
05:22:25 <xover> That tells me about all I need to know about him.
05:23:35 <sbp> well he is a genius
05:23:56 <sbp> I think he's essentially destroyed every single person he's interviewed for wit and awesomeness, except for Tony Benn
05:26:45 <Ash> did a harvard commencement speech
05:28:38 <Ash> HUNG JURY
05:29:25 <Ash> <ali_g> but what's the size of they's dongs got to do wit' it
05:32:06 <cskaterun> cskaterun has quit ()
05:56:48 <xover> * xover NP: “I Just Wanna Make Love To You» by «Etta James»
05:57:27 <xover> [[[
05:57:28 <xover> and I can tell by the way // you walk that walk
05:57:28 <xover> I can hear by the way // you talk that talk
05:57:28 <xover> and I can know by the way // you treat your girl
05:57:28 <xover> that I could give you all the loving in the whole wide world
05:57:28 <xover> ]]]
06:02:48 <jetscreamer> is that before or after foghat did it
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11:16:55 <crschmidt> phenny: tell jsled not logged into idlerpg
11:16:57 <phenny> crschmidt: I'll pass that on for you when jsled is around.
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11:40:15 <Jibbler> sbp_
11:40:17 <Jibbler> "As an international company Unilever PLC and its operating companies receive many ideas so it is not possible to respond to proposals of this nature. We have numerous development teams who specifically research and explore ideas and they fully address our needs in this area."
11:40:21 <Jibbler> boo
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11:50:07 <sbp> hey Jibbler
11:50:15 <sbp> sbp_ just plays IdleRPG
11:50:20 <sbp> I do all the real work
11:50:36 <sbp> what was... oh, the Marmite Butter!
11:50:47 <sbp> heh, you actually wrote to them? that's so awesome
11:51:12 <sbp> "they fully address our needs in this area" - makes you wonder if Marmite Butter is on the way then
11:52:54 <libby> heh
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12:12:15 <Jibbler> sbp: either that, or their email response system already has a button for "marmite butter autoresponse"
12:14:42 <sbp> they probably scan the incoming mail for the words "(?i)marmite" and "(?i)butter"
12:15:09 <sbp> (and now for "(?i)Jibble")
12:15:16 <MoiraA> morning
12:15:22 <MoiraA> err ... afternoon
12:21:15 <sbp> hey Moira
12:21:26 <MoiraA> my day is getting muddled up
12:21:41 <MoiraA> I'm starting to go to bed around 4am and get up midday (not today since I had an interview though)
12:21:46 <MoiraA> I'm shattered
12:22:19 <sbp> ferry lag? :-)
12:22:20 <Morbus> Morbus (~morbus@pool-64-222-149-37.man.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
12:22:32 <MoiraA> no, late night lag + early morning interview :)
12:22:34 <sbp> speaking of ferry lag, here's Morbus!
12:22:38 <MoiraA> haha
12:22:39 <MoiraA> hi Morbus
12:22:40 <crschmidt> good mooooooooorning!
12:22:43 <Morbus> eh oh. just testing anical for a second.
12:22:49 <MoiraA> anical?
12:22:50 <Anical> anical is a bad bot. or a vewwy bad wittle boy or dumb
12:22:56 <MoiraA> ah, don't mention bots :/
12:23:08 <MoiraA> kept me up till 4 am trying to get a damned eggdrop to work
12:23:14 <sbp> 2 late. sry
12:23:25 <MoiraA> totally useless project anyway
12:23:33 <crschmidt> eggdrop--
12:23:33 <MoiraA> but I was determined not to be beaten by it :)
12:23:39 <crschmidt> only thing it's good for is megahal
12:23:46 <MoiraA> not that easy when it's on someone else's box and you're using putty
12:24:02 <sbp> eggdrop, hooh! good God ya'll! what is it good for?
12:24:05 <MoiraA> even changing its name meant hunting down the damned config file - no such thing as ./nick whatever
12:24:15 <MoiraA> ha - not too much as yet sbp :(
12:24:18 <MoiraA> it does !seen
12:24:30 <MoiraA> and I uploaded a talkz tcl script but can't get it working properly
12:24:49 <MoiraA> whenever someone joins the channel it says something in hebrew (I think)
12:24:51 <MoiraA> and that's it
12:24:55 <MoiraA> and
12:24:58 <MoiraA> it won't change servers
12:25:05 <MoiraA> so it's on qnet and I can't seem to move it
12:25:16 <MoiraA> but it's progress :)
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12:28:01 <sbp> <MoiraA> also, if I XOR every byte couplet and play the file as an MP3, it gives me Mendelssohn's 8th symphony. which is strange because Mendelssohn doesn't have an 8th symphony
12:28:17 <MoiraA> huh?
12:28:20 <MoiraA> when did I say that?
12:28:30 <sbp> it was a hypothetical
12:28:38 <MoiraA> oh.
12:28:59 <MoiraA> sounds like me drunk :)
12:29:07 <sbp> heh, heh
12:29:24 <sbp> the <nickname> fakequote syntax is a bit like IRC's equivalent of doing a bad voice impression
12:29:40 <MoiraA> it can be quite evil :)
12:29:45 <MoiraA> I've seen a script do that
12:29:56 <MoiraA> and everyone thinks that person really did say a load of abuse etc
12:30:12 <sbp> well then you just do it back to the script
12:30:18 <sbp> <Monty> I'm a little whoremonger
12:30:19 <MoiraA> if you know it's happening
12:30:21 <Monty> octal skillful heels desires repulsive light-green Pot Noodle.
12:30:27 <MoiraA> do this
12:30:38 <MoiraA> * MoiraA slaps you
12:30:46 <MoiraA> now did you see that?
12:30:51 <MoiraA> because I didn't and it won't be in my logs
12:31:04 <sbp> of course I saw it--you slapped me!
12:31:12 <MoiraA> yeah and I didn't see anything
12:31:18 <sbp> my polite indignation knows no bounds
12:31:20 <MoiraA> which is how someone can talk as you without you knowing
12:31:21 <MoiraA> lol
12:31:25 <MoiraA> * MoiraA apologises
12:31:38 <sbp> right, I remember this...
12:31:39 <MoiraA> and if you can't see what a script is doing, you can't talk back to it
12:31:41 <sbp> but it's not quite the same thing
12:31:48 <MoiraA> no, this was a horrible ctcp exploit
12:31:52 <sbp> aye
12:32:50 <Morbus> Morbus has quit ("http://disobey.com/")
12:32:53 <MoiraA> .. ctcp ^*:CMD:*:{ . $+ $2- | .halt } << get that onto someone's remote
12:33:01 <MoiraA> and you can effectively control their client
12:33:29 <jcowan> jcowan (~jcowan@a7cebc03.cst.lightpath.net) has joined #swhack
12:33:45 <jcowan> Ittywhonk!
12:33:48 <phenny> jcowan: 22 May 19:57Z <jessica> tell jcowan that we missed him in terms of archaic Lewis Carroll books, where did he hide those again?
12:33:50 <sbp> Wittyhonk, jc!
12:34:15 <sbp> I've no idea, for the record, what jessica meant
12:34:44 <jcowan> Fair enough.
12:35:09 <jcowan> I've read the ittydb code carefully, and I appreciate you writing it.
12:35:17 <sbp> but...
12:35:23 <jcowan> It was pretty easy to understand, despite not being a Pythonist.
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12:35:55 <sbp> oh, no but? awesome
12:36:02 <sbp> I really do need to rewrite it though
12:36:18 <sbp> implementing disjointWhat'sItsName with the current code would be a bit messy
12:36:43 <jcowan> mutually exclusive children?
12:37:01 <sbp> that's the one
12:37:04 <sbp> mEC
12:37:25 <jcowan> The next extension is to be able to pass a query (a list of keys) and return a list of matches.
12:37:45 <jcowan> The idea being that all the keys are ANDed, except that just in case two keys have a parent that has mEC, they are ORed.
12:38:04 <sbp> I'll make a note of that in the source
12:38:07 <sbp> loggy: URI?
12:38:07 <sbp> I'm logging. Sorry, searching removed.
12:38:11 <sbp> what?
12:38:15 <jcowan> loggy: pointer?
12:38:15 <jcowan> See http://swhack.com/logs/2005-05-23#T12-38-15
12:38:16 <crschmidt> loggy: bookmark
12:38:16 <crschmidt> See http://swhack.com/logs/2005-05-23#T12-38-16
12:38:18 <Anical> what is THE TERM HEARTBURN IS A MISNOMER IT'S ACTUALLY YOUR HEART DROWNING;
12:38:36 <jcowan> Asshole.
12:38:48 <jcowan> Anical?
12:38:49 <Anical> jcowan: No clue. Sorry.
12:38:56 <crschmidt> anical, anical?
12:39:10 <jcowan> He got that right [mutters]
12:39:14 <sbp> done
12:39:44 <jcowan> If a user specifies "Cat Dog", he clearly does not mean "cat and dog", e.g., but "cat or dog".
12:40:21 <sbp> unless he's Googling
12:41:24 <jcowan> True.
12:41:42 <jcowan> These are however category names rather than mere words, though this distinction may escape people.
12:41:46 <sbp> in which case he's really looking for Britney porn
12:41:57 <jcowan> .gc cat dog
12:41:59 <phenny> cat dog: 11,600,000
12:42:02 <jcowan> Gak.
12:42:15 <jcowan> .gc cat|dog
12:42:18 <phenny> cat|dog: 85,700,000
12:42:25 <nsh> nsh (nsh@nsh.wikipedia) has joined #swhack
12:42:27 <sbp> that seems too little to me
12:42:36 <sbp> hmm
12:42:38 <jcowan> The numbers are known to be incorrect.
12:42:39 <sbp> .gc cat^dog
12:42:42 <phenny> cat^dog: 11,600,000
12:42:46 <sbp> XOR would be great
12:42:57 <Jibbler> * Jibbler wants to pump regexps into google
12:42:58 <jcowan> Most puncs are treated as whitespace.
12:43:03 <jcowan> .gc cat
12:43:05 <phenny> cat: 114,000,000
12:43:09 <jcowan> .gc cat|cat
12:43:09 <sbp> some of their lower end googlecounts have been terrible lately
12:43:11 <phenny> cat|cat: 48,200,000
12:43:19 <sbp> probably their higher ends too, but one can't tell
12:43:27 <jcowan> There's the evidence.
12:43:29 <Jibbler> google/(cat|dog)s?/
12:43:34 <sbp> heh
12:43:40 <Jibbler> * Jibbler wants!
12:43:42 <jcowan> cat|cat is thought to be somewhat more reliable (or at least consistent).
12:44:14 <jcowan> * jcowan always hopes to see numbers like 37.
12:44:40 <Jibbler> http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20050523065143776C837261
12:46:08 <jcowan> * jcowan deeply disapproves of the authorities' conduct, while not at all approving of microwaving live cats.
12:46:16 <Jibbler> harsh law enforcement
12:46:36 <jcowan> Very.
12:47:22 <sbp> how about microwaving the authorities, and the perps?
12:47:39 <sbp> (I suddenly understand the word "perps"--it's for people who can't spell)
12:47:48 <jcowan> Of course.
12:48:00 <jcowan> There used to be a whole tradition of cop-words of this type.
12:48:13 <jcowan> of which I recall offhand only "arsony".
12:49:04 <jcowan> 893 ghits.
12:49:28 <Jibbler> ooh, another use for PieSpy's graph thingy http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/rpg/ads3/aisiid1b.png
12:50:11 <jcowan> Down.
12:50:30 <crschmidt> Works here.
12:50:45 <sbp> et here
12:52:24 <jcowan> http://www.eqc.ky.gov/special/essays/clark.htm demonstrates that one can have a Phud and still be criminally ignorant of the standard language; see the last word.
12:52:34 <jcowan> * jcowan retries.
12:54:09 <sbp> odd
12:54:15 <sbp> I keep getting this kind of thing:
12:54:15 <sbp> No recipient given (PRIVMSG)
12:54:15 <sbp> No recipient given (PRIVMSG)
12:54:24 <sbp> presumably from dircproxy
12:54:26 <Jibbler> sounds like your client is borked
12:54:55 <sbp> well it's intermittent. I'm sending out pingself messages to make sure I don't disconnect, but not all of them are getting error messages
12:55:01 <sbp> just a very small percentage
12:55:06 <sbp> assuming it's even that
12:59:06 <nsh> Monty remembers everything.
12:59:08 <Monty> cat^dog: 11,600,000
12:59:12 <nsh> see ;-)
12:59:12 <sbp> well done Monty
12:59:18 <Monty> Like, I type pretty well optimised and that's why they're not a religion because all that much to stop conversation
12:59:42 <nsh> btw sbp, is x^y that different from x XOR y, really?
13:00:12 <Jibbler> heh true, monty might spout that stuff out in a different channel :)
13:00:14 <Monty> uncle has a fight with pterodactyl!
13:00:30 <Jibbler> see, i said that in a different channel when my uncle was fighting a pterodactyl
13:00:38 <sbp> nsh: the former is shorter, hence the more obvious to type
13:00:47 <sbp> Google supports neither ^ nor XOR
13:00:58 <jcowan> Not surprising.
13:01:12 <nsh> :-) sbo
13:01:14 <nsh> *sbp
13:01:27 <Jibbler> it supports things like 2^2 :)
13:01:33 <sbp> mutating me from one network to another?
13:01:36 <sbp> heh
13:01:42 <nsh> shhh
13:01:43 <nsh> ;-)
13:01:56 <nsh> we are free
13:02:02 <nsh> but there are still rules to the game
13:03:12 <sbp> e.g. you can't look good in spandex
13:03:52 <nsh> hahaha
13:03:56 <nsh> touche
13:04:03 <nsh> we have webbing though
13:04:04 <nsh> :-)
13:04:22 <nsh> nsh: killing conversations since 1984
13:04:32 <nsh> what's the capital of Bhutan?
13:04:46 <sbp> rats, I should know
13:05:16 <sbp> * sbp looks it up, finds out, very nice
13:07:19 <jcowan> How do you pronounce the capital of North Dakota?
13:07:36 <jcowan> * jcowan , killing conversations since 1972 or so.
13:07:56 <nsh> I'd pronounce it e"ND"
13:07:57 <nsh> :-)
13:08:34 <nsh> lol
13:08:40 <nsh> haha
13:08:42 <sbp> hmm. I'll go for Bissmurk
13:08:58 <nsh> keep going...
13:09:28 <jcowan> * jcowan likes Eggshell White N3
13:09:53 <sbp> there are shades of N3 now?
13:10:40 <nsh> * nsh eats pie
13:11:36 <nsh> remember, forget, learn
13:11:44 <nsh> pick anyone
13:12:38 <sbp> oho
13:12:44 <sbp> "Across the Water we have Pierre, the capital of the state of North Dakota, pronounced "peer". Most people outside N.D. say it Frenchwise." - http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2005/05/twice-recycled-swhack-tales.html
13:12:53 <sbp> vs. North Dakota
13:12:53 <sbp> Capital: Bismarck
13:12:58 <sbp> - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=capital+of+North+Dakota&btnG=Search
13:13:40 <sbp> "Capital: Bismarck" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota
13:14:02 <jcowan> Should be South Dakota, obviously.
13:14:08 <jcowan> * jcowan goes off to fix his blog.
13:14:39 <sbp> well I was still seriously considering that you were right and Google and Wikipedia were wrong
13:14:40 <nsh> orgasmic :-)
13:15:10 <jcowan> Naah.
13:15:20 <jcowan> I came up with a clever idea the other day, or it came up with me, whatever.
13:16:32 <nsh> .
13:17:10 <sbp> * sbp smnts nsh
13:17:30 <sbp> (see, told you it'd come in handy jcowan)
13:17:42 <jcowan> Quite.
13:17:47 <jcowan> Blog fixed.
13:18:08 <jcowan> For a fully anonymous type/object system for Scheme.
13:18:11 <crschmidt> libsablot0c102 -- not the most intuitive package name ever.
13:18:31 <sbp> fixed: heh, you didn't just silently correct-whistle-and-walk-away either. cool
13:18:44 <jcowan> * jcowan is far too humble to do anything like that!
13:19:28 <jcowan> There is one procedure that does it all, make-type. You call it with one argument n, the number of instance variables you want, and get back 2n+3 procedures.
13:20:43 <jcowan> to wit, an object constructor, a predicate, n accessors, n mutators, and a subtype constructor.
13:21:17 <jcowan> So if you want a final/sealed type, just drop the subtype constructor; if you want read-only, drop the mutators.
13:22:13 <nsh> .
13:22:59 <bjoern_> bjoern_ (~bjoern@dsl-084-056-245-186.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
13:23:13 <nsh> don't believe in limits :-)
13:24:18 <Arnia> Arnia (~ircont9k@pcp04897293pcs.mplsnt01.sc.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
13:24:24 <nsh> how many?
13:24:52 <nsh> smith will suffice
13:25:18 <jcowan> Not to understand the Smiths is not to understand KXU.
13:26:24 <nsh> to not understand can a blessing.
13:26:43 <jcowan> s/the/The
13:26:58 <nsh> oh are we definite now?
13:27:13 <nsh> i can smell uncertainty nting else
13:27:23 <nsh> *if nothing
13:27:34 <sbp> don't forget the copulaic verb, too
13:27:52 <nsh> frl
13:28:20 <nsh> it'd be easier if there were less deciet
13:28:40 <sbp> less what, pardon?
13:28:58 <nsh> perturbation
13:30:14 <nsh> ambit.
13:30:20 <nsh> gay
13:30:27 <sbp> ANYWAY, back on Planet Earth...
13:30:37 <sbp> jcowan: got anything in mind for the Scheme thing?
13:30:52 <jcowan> I'll probably post it as a SRFI.
13:30:54 <jetscreamer> did that say 'the fucking verb'?
13:31:12 <jetscreamer> copulaic
13:31:33 <jcowan> There's no standard object system for Scheme; it's fairly easy to roll your own, and there are a number of object libraries available.
13:31:42 <sbp> jetscreamer: kinda
13:31:58 <jetscreamer> yeah ok i see the kinda
13:32:00 <sbp> * sbp gets "Scheme Requests for Implementation"
13:33:19 <crschmidt> Hm. For some reason, on athena, bash run from inside of screen doesn't use the colors in the prompt
13:33:38 <jcowan> IMHO this one is very Scheme-y; it doesn't bind names, just generates procedures.
13:33:45 <sbp> * sbp wonders why the periods on http://srfi.schemers.org/draft-srfis.html are all slightly inconsistent
13:34:15 <jcowan> You can implement it on top of vectors (or you can implement vectors on top of it, by extending the syntax to accept #t as meaning "I want a variable number of instance variables"
13:34:22 <jcowan> s/syntax/semantics
13:34:35 <nsh> nice one
13:34:36 <sbp> crschmidt: where is your PS1 set?
13:34:53 <jcowan> crschmidt: also what is the value of $TERM?
13:34:55 <crschmidt> oh, ick
13:34:59 <crschmidt> The value of TERM is "screen"
13:35:09 <jcowan> Hey jingo!
13:35:10 <crschmidt> but the bashrc has a specific case for xterm-color
13:35:30 <nsh> lol
13:36:11 <jcowan> ("Hey jingo!" was traditional magician's patter for making something appear; the counterpart of "Hey presto!" for making things disappear. See Anaximancer.)
13:37:14 <sbp> (It's not in Anaximancer, nor anywhere on Ghyll)
13:37:33 <nsh> what isn't?
13:37:33 <jcowan> I know.
13:37:34 <Arnia> Arnia has quit ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
13:37:47 <nsh> mmm
13:38:03 <sbp> planned?
13:38:23 <nsh> projected
13:38:27 <jcowan> No, I was just referring to anaximancers as those who make things appear.
13:38:34 <sbp> nsh: http://gamegrene.com/wiki/
13:38:51 <sbp> a fantasy lexicon game some of us work at
13:39:04 <sbp> ah, I see. it'd make a good addition though
13:39:18 <nsh> you think?
13:39:20 <nsh> :-)
13:39:35 <sbp> well, I am
13:39:49 <nsh> you know that's a sore point
13:39:53 <nsh> :-)
13:40:12 <sbp> pfft. solipsist
13:40:22 <nsh> lol
13:40:27 <jcowan> Isn't everybody?
13:40:33 <nsh> you want to blame a mirror for reflecting?
13:40:34 <nsh> :-)
13:40:51 <sbp> jcowan: heh, heh (blammo, blammo)
13:40:51 <nsh> I blame the dutch
13:41:01 <nsh> :-)
13:41:45 <jcowan> In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch / Is offering too little and asking too much.
13:42:17 <nsh> tricameral mind might look that way
13:45:10 <sbp> Firefox really needs to save pages as *.html by default instead of *.htm
13:45:20 <sbp> or at least have an option for doing so. very annoying
13:45:39 <jcowan> I think it depends on the last component of the URI.
13:46:20 <sbp> yeah, but:
13:46:28 <sbp> index.html -> index.html
13:46:31 <sbp> index.htm -> index.htm
13:46:35 <sbp> index -> index.htm
13:46:38 <sbp> the top two are fine
13:46:40 <jcowan> Huh.
13:46:43 <sbp> it's the bottom one that bugs me
13:46:52 <jcowan> Yeah, I can see that.
13:47:03 <sbp> basically any HTML that doesn't have a .html extension does the way of the .htm
13:47:06 <jcowan> Also, Firefox/Win32 doesn't associate itself with ".htm" by default.
13:47:19 <sbp> and for a long time it broke the "Edit" context menu item
13:47:39 <sbp> by overriding it and binding it to a non-working command
13:48:14 <sbp> s/does the way/goes the way/
13:48:40 <jcowan> I liked "does the way" better, as in "Thus shalt thou do the way of the Eagle."
13:49:08 <sbp> I tend to read "do the *" as being some kind of strange dance
13:49:51 <jcowan> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/loginataka.html
13:50:37 <sbp> "and praise to the Name of O'Reilly"
13:50:59 <sbp> puissance!
13:51:56 <crschmidt> http://crschmidt.net/albums/sparql?search=Foghorn
13:52:28 <sbp> this is really great, though
13:52:57 <jcowan> I tried to persuade esr to include it in TAOUP, but either he or his editors vetoed it.
13:55:15 <jetscreamer> is there supposed to be a picture on this page? http://crschmidt.net/albums/sparql?search=Foghorn
13:55:22 <jcowan> Yup.
13:55:39 <crschmidt> Not sure how well it works in all browsers: It's using CSS "Crop" to select an area of a larger picture.
13:55:48 <crschmidt> There's a link to the actual picture, as well as the flickr page.
13:55:52 <crschmidt> So you can click through to that if it doesn't work.
13:55:55 <jetscreamer> ya i see you in the link
13:56:02 <sbp> and ah, I'd wondered what that line was
13:56:04 <jetscreamer> just not that page
13:56:05 <sbp> (in White Rabbit)
13:59:11 <crschmidt> Anyway, of interest is that the Foghorn page is generated entirely using XSLT against a SPARQL query resultset, the XML for which is (now) included at the bottom of the page (in a comment)
14:03:55 <q8uv> * q8uv plays a leghorn
14:04:09 <jcowan> * jcowan plays a foghorn
14:08:36 <edsu> edsu (~esummers@host3131.follett.com) has joined #swhack
14:14:41 <jcowan> * jcowan wonders if the laundry put fabric softener in his clothes again, or if something else is triggering all these itches.
14:15:20 <sbp> perhaps Lilith's visiting NYC
14:15:48 <jcowan> Adam's first wife?
14:16:20 <sbp> not that one, no
14:17:26 <nsh> nsh has quit ()
14:18:45 <jcowan> * jcowan is beginning to think about Algol 2008.
14:19:05 <sbp> is that some kinda conference in Greece?
14:19:31 <jcowan> Nope, a new programming language to be invented by me.
14:19:37 <jcowan> In the Algol tradition.
14:19:44 <sbp> to be written in 2008?
14:19:57 <jcowan> To be finished by then, I hope!
14:20:03 <sbp> * sbp plays some Billie Holiday
14:20:09 <sbp> got spec?
14:20:12 <jcowan> Earlier versions are Algol-58, Algol-60, and Algol-68.
14:20:18 <jcowan> No spec yet, just some ideas.
14:20:21 <sbp> wow, they're *ancient*!
14:20:40 <jcowan> "Algol-60 was a great improvement on most of its successors." --Dijkstra
14:21:03 <sbp> hehe
14:21:41 <sbp> 'Since ALGOL 60 had no I/O facilities, there is no portable "Hello World" program in ALGOL.'
14:21:47 <sbp> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL
14:22:03 <jcowan> That is to say, I/O facilities weren't *standardized*.
14:22:09 <jcowan> This was before the concept of a standard library.
14:22:20 <sbp> aha
14:22:39 <jcowan> Before Algol-60, most languages had built-in verbs for I/O.
14:22:52 <sbp> see, "before the concept of a standard library" just doesn't compute for young'uns
14:22:56 <jcowan> Algol-68 had an I/O ("transput") system unmatched for hairiness.
14:23:30 <q8uv> We should recount the number of ALGOL users
14:24:43 <jcowan> Far and few, far and few are the lands where the Algolites live / Their heads are green, and their hands are blue, and they write their code with a sieve.
14:25:28 <sbp> that's hilarious
14:25:42 <sbp> sbp has changed the topic to: <jcowan> Far and few, far and few are the lands where the Algolites live / Their heads are green, and their hands are blue, and they write their code with a sieve.
14:26:28 <redmonk> redmonk (~steve@216.185.189.148) has joined #swhack
14:27:06 <crschmidt> remind me in 10 hours to look into setting up rotating logs for athena's apache
14:27:06 <Monty> crschmidt: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Tue May 24 01:24:11 BST 2005
14:27:09 <jcowan> Edward Lear was a fine old fellow, even if his limericks did have line 5 = line 1.
14:27:26 <jcowan> crschmidt: Huh. I didn't know that worked if you didn't say His name.
14:27:34 <sbp> just consider it The Lear Variation, perhaps
14:27:44 <sbp> * sbp neither
14:27:59 <sbp> (nor that l5 = l1 in Lear's lims/)
14:28:04 <sbp> s!/!.!
14:28:32 <sbp> I'm quite an ignorant chap really
14:28:39 <redmonk> hello all
14:28:52 <sbp> * sbp plays Long Tall Sally nontheless
14:28:55 <sbp> hey redmonk
14:29:04 <crschmidt> jcowan: yeah, I learned it on another bot, where someone mentioned "remind me" syntax without actually intending to use the bot
14:29:09 <sbp> heh. <simmo> oh ffs novell own suse now
14:29:25 <crschmidt> Hasn't that been the case for quite a while?
14:29:28 <jcowan> General Grant still dead, too.
14:30:09 <jcowan> http://homepages.stayfree.co.uk/gpj/lear.htm is an attempt to spruce up some Lear limericks by adding new fifth lines. They aren't *quite* identical to line 1, just too close for (modern) comfort.
14:30:26 <sbp> General Grant?
14:30:40 <sbp> (I know who he is, for a change; but not why you mention him)
14:31:17 <jcowan> It's the prototypical headline-that-doesn't-give-the-news.
14:31:46 <sbp> ah. the less provocative well duh
14:33:57 <jcowan> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalissimo_Francisco_Franco_is_still_dead .
14:34:18 <sbp> so there's only been a prototypical headline since Grant passed? or did it replace an earlier one? :-)
14:34:25 <redmonk> ooooh, they're working on an Ender's Game movie
14:34:31 <sbp> ah, there are variants across languages too
14:34:33 <redmonk> http://www.aintitcoolnews.com/display.cgi?id=20287
14:35:00 <jcowan> sbp: Headlines aren't even as old as General Grant, really.
14:35:19 <jcowan> Before that there were only labels, like "The War" or "Situation In India".
14:35:43 <jcowan> True headlines, one-sentence (often verbless) summaries of the news, pretty much appeared in the Hearst papers around 1898.
14:36:34 <jcowan> With some exceptions, like this one in 1781: "CORNWALLIS TAKEN!"
14:36:36 <sbp> (thanks. more Googlepediaing!)
14:36:43 <sbp> CORNWALLIS TAKEN!?
14:36:58 <jcowan> The final large battle of the American Revolution.
14:37:05 <jcowan> Cornwallis being the British general.
14:37:05 <sbp> "William studied at Harvard University (18821885), but was expelled for sending faculty members chamber pots with the recipient's picture adorning the inside bottom."
14:38:13 <jcowan> My brother studied at Harvard, but was expelled too; I forget why.
14:38:27 <sbp> same thing, perhaps
14:38:35 <jcowan> My other brother went to Columbia, and was expelled for wanton discharge of a fire extinguisher in the hallway.
14:38:46 <sbp> he got expelled just for that? harsh
14:39:01 <jcowan> Later, the first brother joined the Harvard Club, an act of chutzpah probably unparalleled even in my family.
14:40:28 <sbp> odd amount of loyalty to your universities in the States
14:40:37 <sbp> seems to happen rarely to never here
14:40:44 <sbp> oh!
14:40:54 <sbp> reminds me of an awesome news segment on BBC News the other day
14:41:00 <sbp> I think it was yesterday, actually
14:41:10 <chimezie> chimezie (~ogbujic@192.35.79.81) has joined #swhack
14:41:55 <sbp> they had four journalists on: one American guy, a woman from The Independent, a woman from Portugal, and a middle eastern guy whose affiliation I didn't catch
14:42:09 <jcowan> sbp: fire extinguishers are sacred.
14:42:45 <sbp> the topic was all American war atrocities in the previous few years, and, on a wider scale, how the entire !American world basically hates American in general now
14:42:56 <jcowan> Hates America or Americans?
14:43:30 <sbp> hates America. this is the BBC, don't forget: they were still balanced and fair. they noted that only half of the country voted in the corrupt sleazebags again
14:43:46 <sbp> but even I was shocked, really, at the level of anger
14:43:55 <sbp> even the American journalist was basically saying "fair enough"
14:44:12 <jcowan> It goes back a long way: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~DRBR/sitting.html
14:44:19 <sbp> he said that he thinks most Americans would be absolutely shocked at the extraordinary level of anti-American sentiment all over the world now
14:44:21 <jcowan> Mark Twain, "To the Person Sitting in Darkness"
14:44:34 <dmiles_afk> dmiles_afk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:44:38 <dmiles> dmiles (dmiles@bdsl.66.14.82.104.gte.net) has joined #swhack
14:44:47 <sbp> but the thing I was reminded of was that they discussed Galloway's hearing in front of congress, and how he basically knocked them for six
14:45:23 <sbp> they came to the conclusion that the political system is just too patriotic in America such that even Kerry couldn't just come out and say "Bush is wrong: his war on terror is creating *more* reason to attack America"
14:46:05 <jcowan> * jcowan didn't know about this hearing; investigating.
14:46:24 <sbp> and that that's why Galloway was such a shock to everyone, because nobody has the nerve to really stand up and just decry the sleaze for what it is, whereas in Britain (and probably many places besides) it's just the absolute order of the day--no quarter given, none asked
14:47:01 <sbp> they also laughed at how stupid the American adminstration was to have tried to do that to Galloway and not done research beforehand; and I agree
14:47:27 <crschmidt> I've heard a couple of clips of Galloway speaking, in front of the US Senate, I believe. He definitely sounded like someone I could get behind.
14:47:57 <sbp> I think basically every UK paper had something good to say about him after that
14:48:01 <sbp> which is very scary
14:48:39 <jcowan> Talking turkey to Americans is almost a lost art.
14:48:53 <jcowan> Most are either sycophants or smarms.
14:49:03 <sbp> three references:
14:49:04 <sbp> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4557717.stm
14:49:08 <sbp> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4557699.stm
14:49:13 <sbp> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4553601.stm
14:49:36 <sbp> '"Now I know that standards have slipped over the last few years in Washington, but for a lawyer, you are remarkably cavalier with any idea of justice," the MP declared.'
14:50:09 <sbp> '"Senator, in everything I said about Iraq, I turned out to be right and you turned out to be wrong," he told the chairman, whom he labelled a "neo-con, pro-war hawk".'
14:50:24 <crschmidt> Yeah, that's the bit I heard
14:50:29 <sbp> :-)
14:50:34 <crschmidt> His accent was totally awesome too
14:50:48 <sbp> ah, didn't think about that
14:51:06 <jcowan> "Galloway - I caught some of the hearing this morning - is one of the most completely histrionic and narcissistic individuals that I have ever witnessed, and I'm saying that as a psych nurse." -- comment on a blog
14:52:03 <sbp> he's difficult to assess. he was voted MP for a very difficult seat to secure, though
14:55:17 <jcowan> Borderers in general take no (@#$* from anyone, in my experience.
14:55:30 <Jibbler> * Jibbler is happy being ignorant of politics
14:56:41 <jcowan> "I am not now, nor have I ever been"; happiest American allusion by a British politician since "No representation without taxation".
14:56:46 <sbp> another choice bit of the BBC segment: the American journalist said he thought it'd take fifteen years of making all the right decisions (implying ousting Bush at the next elections) to repair the view that the rest of the world has of the American government
14:57:21 <jcowan> Complete transcript/video at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8869.htm
14:57:23 <sbp> what's it a reference to?
14:57:33 <chimezie> chimezie has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:57:38 <jcowan> "... a member of the Communist Party."
14:57:56 <jcowan> Implying that it's a red-baiting McCarthyist smear.
14:58:28 <sbp> ah, aye
15:01:46 <jcowan> Parliamentary debates always seem astoundingly rude to Americans used to the very different style of Capitol Hill.
15:01:56 <themaximus_> themaximus_ has quit (Success)
15:02:25 <themaximus__> themaximus__ (max@themaximus.user) has joined #swhack
15:02:50 <jcowan> "I am not now, nor have I ever been, a supporter of Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, Castro, Peron, Guevara, Zorro the Great, Zorba the Greek, or Hank the Angry Drunken Dwarf." --Charles Kuffner
15:03:42 <crschmidt> jcowan: Based on what I've been hearing recently, I'd really prefer the British style parlimentary debates. They may be rude, but at least they don't seem to be lying quite as often
15:04:28 <jcowan> Oh, I don't know.
15:04:47 <jcowan> Most people assume that rudeness -> sincerity. That's dangerous, because a clever person can manipulate it.
15:05:47 <sbp> lying quite as often: generally they lie all the time
15:05:49 <crschmidt> Possibly. Maybe I just like a good fight. Capitol Hill seems to be full of old fogeys to me, which isn't the impression I get from Parliment. But I'm so apolitical that could be completely wrong.
15:06:02 <sbp> but the others are there to pick them up on it at every point
15:06:05 <sbp> hence the fun
15:06:29 <jcowan> The traditions of Congress evolved in an era when members tended to be armed.
15:06:31 <sbp> the Hansards really aren't all that great most of the time--but generally the high-profile debates are very good
15:06:42 <sbp> the traditions of Parliament did too!
15:06:58 <sbp> do you have sword lines painted across the floor of congress?
15:07:01 <jcowan> Consider Pride's Purge.
15:07:11 <jcowan> Fair enough.
15:08:26 <sbp> * sbp reads http://www.british-civil-wars.co.uk/glossary/prides-purge.htm
15:09:30 <sbp> 'The imprisoned Members were held overnight in a nearby tavern familiarly known as "Hell".'
15:10:01 <jcowan> "Now, one of the most serious of the mistakes you have made in this set of documents is, to be frank, such a schoolboy howler as to make a fool of the efforts that you have made."
15:10:15 <jcowan> Obviously Galloway was going to say "make a fool of you", but he caught himself.
15:10:56 <jcowan> * jcowan once roomed with a Texan who claimed descent from Col. Pride
15:11:08 <sbp> did he let you in?
15:11:35 <jcowan> Sure. He was a nice fella, even if (like many Texans) he had long thumbs.
15:11:46 <jcowan> "That's why they're always smiling."
15:11:55 <sbp> * sbp won't ask
15:13:40 <jcowan> Picture a stereotypical cowboy with his thumbs in his front belt-loops.
15:14:14 <sbp> okay
15:15:01 <sbp> yeah, I really shouldn't've asked
15:15:25 <sbp> you should write those Algol 2008ideas down
15:15:33 <sbp> 2008 ideas on Algol
15:17:27 <jcowan> I will.
15:17:30 <jcowan> I only got the idea on Saturday.
15:17:45 <sbp> * sbp nods
15:17:49 <jcowan> The basic idea is to use what's been discovered in the seven Scheme reports and reincorporate it.
15:18:04 <sbp> .g "seven Scheme reports"
15:18:05 <jcowan> Scheme considers itself the successor of Algol in some sense.
15:18:05 <phenny> "seven Scheme reports": sorry, no results were found.
15:18:15 <jcowan> .g R5Rs
15:18:15 <phenny> R5Rs: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/
15:18:38 <jcowan> R5RS stands for Revised^5 Report on the algorithmic language Scheme
15:18:46 <sbp> thanks
15:18:56 <jcowan> A deliberate allusion to the title of the Algol-60 report and revised report "on the algorithmic language Algol"
15:18:58 <sbp> * sbp goes to http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html#%_toc_start and finds seven sections
15:19:03 <jcowan> Coincidence.
15:19:06 <sbp> ah
15:19:16 <sbp> what're the other reports then?
15:19:22 <jcowan> But if it's revised revised revised revised revised then it had six predecessors.
15:19:37 <jcowan> hmm, fencepost error
15:19:47 <jcowan> five predecessors, six reports in all
15:21:32 <jcowan> .g r4rs
15:21:32 <phenny> r4rs: http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/~jaffer/r4rs_toc.html
15:21:36 <jcowan> .g r3rs
15:21:37 <phenny> r3rs: http://computing-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/R3RS
15:21:43 <jcowan> (Bad hit there).
15:23:22 <jcowan> "Teach Yourself Scheme in Fixnum Days": excellent intro to Scheme w/o advocacy
15:23:35 <chimezie> chimezie (~ogbujic@192.35.79.81) has joined #swhack
15:23:39 <sbp> (sorry, was pedant warring with crschmidt on #swig)
15:24:27 <sbp> are all of the pre-R5RS reports redundant now then?
15:24:34 <jcowan> Yes.
15:25:18 <jcowan> The SRFIs that I mentioned earlier are piecemeal bits of standardization, since it's unlikely that there'll ever be an R6RS.
15:25:37 <jcowan> Nothing can go into scheme if even one of the Scheme cabal vetoes it.
15:25:39 <sbp> * sbp tries to find a one-hella-big-page version of Teach Yourself Scheme...
15:25:52 <jcowan> I just wget'd them and cat'd them.
15:25:59 <jcowan> Firefox is quite forgiving about cat'd HTML pages.
15:26:15 <jcowan> wget -r -l 1 is your friend.
15:26:23 <jcowan> or is it -l 2, I forget
15:26:58 <sbp> I wrote a little script ages ago to cat all the bodies of HTML pages properly
15:27:05 <sbp> wget: well, there's http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-html.tar.gz
15:27:23 <_jeannie_watson> _jeannie_watson has left #swhack
15:28:08 <jcowan> Yeah.
15:28:41 <sbp> hmm
15:28:57 <mattis_> mattis_ (~mattis@p54BD7AC2.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #swhack
15:28:57 <Monty> hey mattis_
15:29:04 <jcowan> Shh, Monty
15:29:07 <Monty> I reckon bear + refresh-rate = cellophane...
15:29:11 <sbp> wget could do with an option that limits pages to get to being under the basedir of the URI being... gotten. if that makes sense
15:29:32 <jcowan> I think it does, and congratulations for using gotten correctly a la Americain.
15:29:44 <sbp> it does: with -r -l 1/2?
15:29:49 <sbp> and no problem
15:29:54 <deltab> sbp: -np
15:30:38 <jcowan> Americans wince when British authors have their American characters say things like "He hasn't gotten any sense".
15:30:48 <sbp> deltab: aha. cool, thanks
15:30:54 <deltab> np
15:30:57 <sbp> heh
15:30:58 <jcowan> == he hasn't *acquired* any sense, in righteous en-us.
15:30:58 <crschmidt> ... heh
15:31:36 <sbp> yes, I'd read that as acquired too
15:31:40 <jcowan> wget -L often does the right thing.
15:31:43 <sbp> and gotten sounds entirely natural to me
15:31:56 <sbp> I was surprised when I first had it pointed out to me that it's an Americanism, even
15:31:57 <jcowan> Huh. Must be leakage into en-gb, then.
15:32:11 <sbp> could be, or it could just be that I speak to Americans all day long :-)
15:32:25 <sbp> and then watch the Simpsons and Frasier and Friends of an evening
15:32:36 <jcowan> My understanding was that the en-gb version of "He hasn't got any sense" is simply "He hasn't any sense", which is unnatural but not wrong in en-us.
15:32:49 <sbp> yeah
15:33:04 <jcowan> and that "gotten" was obsolete save in "ill-gotten".
15:33:06 <sbp> but with gotten, it changes the meaning to "he hasn't picked up any sense"
15:33:12 <jcowan> Indeed.
15:33:16 <sbp> ill-gotten's pretty obsolete
15:33:31 <jcowan> except in ill-gotten gains.
15:33:47 <sbp> even there it's a bit of a cliche
15:33:50 <jcowan> Indeed.
15:35:00 <jcowan> Apt alliteration's artful aid, as the poet Pope proclaimed.
15:35:43 <sbp> jcowan: you have email from Morbus, by the way
15:36:05 <jcowan> As the pedant Tolkien proclaimed, however, "alliteration" alliterates on "l", and the other three words alliterate because they all begin with vowels: "old English art" alliterates likewise.
15:36:10 <jcowan> * jcowan checks
15:36:21 <sbp> choice quote: "I don't care to unsuck"
15:37:07 <jcowan> At least Morbus can spell "orthogonality"
15:38:31 <jcowan> A transatlantic conversation: "Do you have many children?" "Oh no, only one a year."
15:38:52 <sbp> at least? I didn't put him down!
15:38:59 <sbp> even his .sig is awesome, from the Jargon file
15:39:24 <jcowan> Suxor. Now I can't use that one myself.
15:39:27 <sbp> :-)
15:39:58 <jcowan> Or as they say in Wales, "Swxôr".
15:40:02 <chimezie> chimezie has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:40:04 <sbp> which side is en-us on that conversation?
15:40:10 <jcowan> The question.
15:40:11 <sbp> there's an x in Welsh now?
15:40:30 <sbp> it'd be swcso^r, I think
15:40:33 <jcowan> In Welsh haxorese, there'd have to be.
15:40:37 <sbp> true
15:41:16 <jcowan> en-gb version: "Have you many children?"
15:41:38 <sbp> nah, "have you got many kids?"
15:41:53 <jcowan> Different register.
15:42:06 <chimezie> chimezie (~ogbujic@192.35.79.81) has joined #swhack
15:42:16 <sbp> well, "do you have many children" would certainly be interepreted in the en-us way
15:42:21 <jcowan> The point is that en-gb doesn't always demand do-support for "have" used as a main verb (=possess, bear, etc.)
15:42:41 <jcowan> sbp: sure. Context is all. But the other interp is possible at least in theory.
15:42:47 <sbp> yep
15:42:54 <sbp> it's not possible at all in en-us?
15:43:03 <jcowan> Not sure any more.
15:43:07 <sbp> heheh
15:43:17 <jcowan> * jcowan is a partisan of en-us spelling, but refuses to countenance "anymore".
15:43:30 <sbp> what about "alright"?
15:43:36 <jcowan> Even worse.
15:43:42 <sbp> "thru"?
15:43:49 <jcowan> Soon to be followed by "alnite", doubtless.
15:44:10 <jcowan> "Thru" is in a different class; nobody writes it out of mere ignorance.
15:44:19 <mattis> mattis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:44:49 <sbp> hmm. I can't think of anything more abominable than thru
15:44:59 <sbp> otherwise it would've got you back for the COBOL incident
15:45:00 <jcowan> It's always a self-conscious error, like "brang" for "brought".
15:45:09 <jcowan> "thru" is, that is.
15:45:15 <sbp> or borkulated for borken
15:45:44 <deltab> .gc thru-put
15:45:47 <schepers> schepers (~schepers@cpe-065-187-210-222.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
15:45:47 <phenny> thru-put: 104,000
15:45:47 <jcowan> "Thruway" is standard, though, as the name of the main highway in New York State. "Throughway" would look bizarre.
15:45:52 <sbp> much accruant of the borkules
15:46:05 <sbp> borkularicly accruent
15:46:05 <deltab> .gc thruput
15:46:08 <phenny> thruput: 92,200
15:46:09 <jcowan> But "thruway" isn't generic.
15:46:20 <jcowan> Obviously pronounced thrupp-it.
15:46:20 <sbp> .gc thrufare
15:46:20 <Jibbler> same with boro and borough... lazy american spelling :)
15:46:22 <phenny> thrufare: 63
15:46:36 <sbp> .gc throughfare
15:46:38 <phenny> throughfare: 12,100
15:46:39 <sbp> .gc thoroughfare
15:46:43 <phenny> thoroughfare: 695,000
15:46:49 <jcowan> Jibbler: Blame that on the Board of Geographic Names, which was trying to chop all official locality names to fit on an Addressograph machine.
15:47:04 <sbp> .g Addressograph
15:47:04 <phenny> Addressograph: http://www.addressograph.com/
15:48:32 <jcowan> Hence their unfortunate surgery on Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchabunagungamaugg, which we have discussed before.
15:49:15 <jcowan> -> Lake Webster
15:49:45 <sbp> your first exposition of that is the funniest of all the results for the name
15:49:50 <mattis_> mattis_ has quit (Connection timed out)
15:49:51 <sbp> 21:15:39 <jcowan> In Massachusetts, we have Lake
15:49:51 <sbp> Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchabunagungamaugg, commonly called Lake Webster.
15:49:59 <sbp> - http://swhack.com/logs/2005-03-02
15:50:06 <jcowan> The fine old town of "De L'eaux" along the Missisippi is now known by the intolerable name of "Dlo".
15:50:29 <sbp> why did they need to shorten that?
15:51:09 <sbp> I like your tact there
15:51:11 <mattis_> mattis_ (~mattis@p54BD3BD9.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #swhack
15:51:15 <sbp> I would've entirely messed that up
15:51:20 <sbp> "Dlo is *awful*"
15:51:24 <sbp> "er, the name, I mean"
15:52:08 <sbp> but now I must ask if you've ever been there
15:52:29 <jcowan> No.
15:53:03 <jcowan> I'm pretty sure it was the apostrophe that did it.
15:53:28 <jcowan> e.g. "Golden's Bridge, N.Y." is now "Goldens Bridge, NY"
15:53:42 <sbp> hmm. hard place to Google for
15:54:36 <jcowan> Sorry, it's "de Laux", not "de l'eaux", which would be bad French.
15:54:57 <jcowan> They didn't dare change New York to Newyork, thank Ghu.
15:55:06 <jcowan> Although it was New-York, long ago.
15:55:10 <sbp> what about Newark?
15:55:48 <jcowan> AFAIK that has always been so spelled.
15:55:49 <Jibbler> jcowan: shouldn't that be an adresograf? :)
15:55:52 <jcowan> Isn't there one in English?
15:55:59 <jcowan> s/English/England
15:56:00 <sbp> must be derived from New York though, no?
15:56:13 <sbp> ah. hmm
15:56:32 <sbp> yeah
15:56:42 <sbp> useful finding a roadmap right under your arm
15:57:05 <jcowan> Newark NJ (the well-known one) is pronounced "Noo-urk", whereas Newark, Delaware is more like "New Ark".
15:57:20 <sbp> Newark-on-Trent, but not sure how it's pronounced
15:57:29 <sbp> it's between Lincoln and Nottingham
15:57:31 <jcowan> Probably Nurk.
15:57:43 <sbp> the whole thing's probably "nent"
15:57:57 <sbp> with a glottal stop for the t
15:58:21 <jcowan> Are there really collapsed prons of x-on-y town names?
15:58:45 <chimezie> chimezie has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:58:51 <sbp> none that I can think of
15:59:01 <jcowan> The two Frankfurts in Germany are usually written "Frankfurt a.M." (am Mein) and "Frankfurt a.d. Oder" (an der Oder)
15:59:52 <jcowan> The New-York Historical Society proudly retains its titular hyphen.
16:00:08 <redmonk> redmonk has quit ()
16:00:09 <sbp> awesome, found a place called "Mow Cop"
16:00:23 <sbp> maps are way too addictive
16:00:32 <sbp> * sbp puts his down
16:00:40 <jcowan> Down map! Down, I say!
16:00:53 <sbp> it obeyed
16:01:01 <jcowan> * jcowan has a National Geographic world map on the wall of his hall.
16:01:08 <sbp> good call
16:01:12 <jcowan> They sell it in wallpaper form.
16:01:22 <sbp> I used to have a world map on my bedroom wall, but I haven't currently
16:01:29 <sbp> should put something geographical up
16:01:32 <sbp> wallpaper: heh!
16:01:40 <sbp> seriously?
16:01:43 <jcowan> It doesn't curl up, tear, etc. as world maps often do.
16:02:06 <deltab> .gc collapsed-pron
16:02:08 <phenny> collapsed-pron: 58
16:02:17 <sbp> I'd like one of the bucky projection posters, now I think of it
16:02:37 <sbp> http://www.bfi.org/map.htm
16:02:56 <sbp> or a classic map, perhaps; one of Mercator's
16:03:28 <jcowan> * jcowan laughs and points fingers at "bfi"
16:03:41 <sbp> hmm?
16:03:43 <Anical> hmm is I HAVE HUNTED DOWN AND SUCKED MANY AN ESCAPED DONG.;
16:03:48 <jcowan> @acronym bfi
16:04:05 <supybot> jcowan: bfi could be Bad Frame Indicator (3GPP), or Basic Flight Instructor (aviation), or Basic Flight Instrument, or Bassett Furniture Industries, Inc., or Battle Field Interdiction, or Battle Force Interoperability, or Bearing Frequency Indicator, or Benefit Fraud Inspectorate, or Bilateral Finance Institution, or Bioingeniørfaglig Institutt (Norwegian Institute of Biomedical (1 more message)
16:04:21 <jcowan> or Brute Force and Ignorance, which is what I had in mind.
16:04:28 <sbp> @more jcowan
16:04:29 <supybot> sbp: Science), or Bottom Fitting Insert, or Brain Functional Imaging, or Branch Fan-In, or Brighter Futures Initiative, or British Film Institute, or Broadcasting Foundation, Inc., or Browning-Ferris Industries, Inc., or Brute Force and Ignorance, or Buckminster Fuller Institute, or Bulk Fuel Installation
16:04:38 <sbp> right next to it
16:04:47 <deltab> hmm, Bassett Furniture Industries
16:04:52 <jcowan> Bah.
16:04:53 <sbp> not a Bucky fan?
16:04:59 <deltab> leather or liquorice -- can you tell the difference?
16:05:10 <jcowan> When chewing on them, certainly.
16:05:19 <jcowan> sbp: Geodesic domes *leak*.
16:05:20 <sbp> yeah. not from a long distance
16:05:48 <sbp> it gets you back to nature!
16:05:57 <jcowan> Anical is a naugahyde rimmer of rusty '58 Chevy exhaust pipes.
16:06:26 <sbp> Anical: Anical is also a naugahyde rimmer of rusty '58 Chevy exhaust pipes
16:06:27 <Anical> sbp: okay.
16:06:30 <sbp> Anical?
16:06:30 <Anical> sbp: No clue. Sorry.
16:06:37 <sbp> Anical: Anical?
16:06:37 <Anical> sbp: Anical is a bad bot. or a vewwy bad wittle boy or dumb or a naugahyde rimmer of rusty '58 Chevy exhaust pipes
16:07:09 <sbp> heh. it's like supybot being lowest in its own karma rankings
16:07:17 <sbp> you can always tell which bots aren't popular
16:07:22 <sbp> they point themselves out
16:07:28 <jcowan> phenny: phenny?
16:07:37 <crschmidt> phenny?
16:07:37 <Anical> phenny is Monty's nemesis.
16:07:41 <Monty> IMHO, epistolary chomping dildo was lots of mental tyres.
16:07:46 <crschmidt> Monty?
16:07:47 <Anical> Monty is an expert in plays with Murray Walker's games and over-rated tangled scrotal fluid
16:07:48 <Monty> likes staples.
16:07:49 <Monty> tasteless finite deodorant :(
16:07:50 <jcowan> Perfect!
16:08:02 <jcowan> Supybot?
16:08:02 <Anical> Supybot is an inverse-karma whore.
16:08:03 <supybot> Anical: Error: "is" is not a valid command.
16:08:03 <Anical> supybot: okay.
16:08:04 <supybot> Anical: Error: "okay." is not a valid command.
16:08:05 <Anical> supybot: okay.
16:08:06 <supybot> Anical: Error: "okay." is not a valid command.
16:08:06 <Anical> supybot: ... but Error: "okay." is not a valid command. ...
16:08:07 <supybot> Anical: Error: "..." is not a valid command.
16:08:07 <Anical> supybot: okay.
16:08:08 <supybot> Anical: Error: "okay." is not a valid command.
16:08:09 <Anical> supybot: ... but Error: "okay." is not a valid command. ...
16:08:10 <supybot> Anical: You've given me 5 invalid commands within the last minute; I'm now ignoring you for 10 minutes.
16:08:14 <sbp> awesome
16:08:29 <jcowan> * jcowan rotfls.
16:08:40 <crschmidt> Error: "okay."?
16:08:40 <Anical> Error: "okay." is not a valid command.
16:08:53 <jcowan> julie?
16:08:53 <crschmidt> Error: "..."?
16:08:54 <Anical> Error: "..." is not a valid command.
16:09:04 <jcowan> Anical: Julie?
16:09:04 <Anical> jcowan: No clue. Sorry.
16:09:24 <jcowan> Anical: Julie is a three-input lady.
16:09:24 <Anical> jcowan: okay.
16:09:32 <sbp> Anical: Julie is also Monty and Supybot and phenny's sister-in-law from out of planet
16:09:33 <Anical> sbp: okay.
16:09:33 <Monty> sbp :(
16:09:38 <sbp> sorry Monty
16:09:40 <Monty> check out pingself messages (i know them)
16:09:48 <jcowan> Anical: teddybot?
16:09:49 <Anical> jcowan: No clue. Sorry.
16:09:49 <teddybot> I see.
16:09:55 <sbp> I found that immensely funny for some reason
16:10:05 <jcowan> Which one?
16:10:11 <sbp> the pingself messages one
16:10:17 <sbp> much LOLing
16:10:25 <jcowan> Same here.
16:10:32 <deltab> sbp: off-planet, surely, unless you mean troglodytes
16:10:38 <jcowan> I really did come close to falling out of my chair at supy vs. anical.
16:10:45 <sbp> deltab: by analogy to out of state
16:11:04 <sbp> yeah, that was pretty damn great
16:11:15 <deltab> you can be in a town or a state, but rarely in a planet
16:11:31 <sbp> which is what makes it funny
16:11:39 <jcowan> Unless you are Arne Saknussemm.
16:12:04 <jcowan> Anical: lisppaste2 is the best of a bad bunch of bots.
16:12:05 <Anical> jcowan: okay.
16:12:21 <sbp> or a geothermal prospector
16:12:29 <sbp> and *that* would make a good sci-fi plot
16:12:55 <jcowan> "In Sneffels yoculis craterem ken delebat.
16:12:55 <jcowan> Umbra Scartaris Julii intra calendas descende.
16:12:55 <jcowan> Audas viator, et terrestre centrum attinges,
16:12:55 <jcowan> Kod feci. Arne Saknussemm."
16:13:30 <deltab> I recognise that name from somewhere
16:13:42 <deltab> oh yeah, the Thursday Next books
16:14:05 <jcowan> _Journey to the Center of the Earth_, by Jules Verne
16:14:21 <jcowan> That version is typo-ridden, sorry.
16:14:23 <deltab> so I get the reference now! thanks, jcowan
16:14:35 <jcowan> "In Sneffels Yoculi craterem kem delibat
16:14:35 <jcowan> umbra Scartaris Julii intra calendas descende,
16:14:35 <jcowan> audas viator, et terrestre centrum attinges.
16:14:35 <jcowan> Kod feci. Arne Saknussemm."
16:14:53 <jcowan> No Q or X, for some reason.
16:15:03 <jcowan> Well, it's the plaintext of a cipher.
16:15:05 <sbp> the hun stole it
16:15:33 <jcowan> Hence kod = quod, audas = audax.
16:15:49 <sbp> deltab: still not up to The Eyre Affair yet, sorry!
16:16:10 <jcowan> Or in plain French:
16:16:13 <jcowan> "Descends dans le cratère du Yocul de
16:16:13 <jcowan> Sneffels que l'ombre du Scartaris vient
16:16:13 <jcowan> caresser avant les calendes de Juillet,
16:16:13 <jcowan> voyageur audacieux, et tu parviendras
16:16:13 <jcowan> au centre de la terre. Ce que j'ai fait.
16:16:14 <jcowan> Arne Saknussemm."
16:16:31 <sbp> reminds me
16:16:36 <sbp> did you see Imkrozh, jcowan?
16:16:46 <jcowan> Yes. Cool idea, meant to comment, didn't for some reason.
16:16:57 <jcowan> The vowel shift is almost plausible.
16:17:01 <sbp> no problem. thought it might be up your alley
16:17:15 <sbp> it worked better than I expected it to
16:18:05 <jcowan> At Extreme this year, ERH is presenting a paper on one-way obscuring of XML.
16:18:22 <sbp> one-way? why would you want that?
16:18:28 <sbp> just rm it, surely :-)
16:18:36 <sbp> that's one way, and obscures it perfectly
16:18:41 <sbp> unless it was an empty document to start with
16:18:53 <jcowan> Abstract: [[[
16:18:54 <jcowan> When describing bugs or reporting performance problems in XML processing software, it is essential to be able to submit actual documents that demonstrate the problems. However, many XML documents contain sensitive, proprietary, or classified data that cannot be shared. The solution? The Randomizer is a Sax-based open-source tool that removes almost all the information content of a document, replacing it with randomly generated data. The structu
16:18:54 <jcowan> re of the data is maintained, even to such details as characters not moving outside their Unicode block and punctuation characters remaining punctuation. While the result is not military grade (for example, the length of the message and the number and positions of the elements are retained), the original content is obscured in an irreversible way that allows test cases to be shared without revealing confidential information.
16:18:56 <jcowan> ]]]
16:19:06 <sbp> ooh, I see
16:19:17 <sbp> very cool
16:19:52 <sbp> I'd be surprised if it didn't have even a little of the "cem emyputy dirr whed o'n zeyomk?" problem, though
16:20:07 <sbp> that is, if you're retaining structure, you're retaining information
16:20:48 <jcowan> It's hopeless.
16:21:03 <jcowan> Asimov's example about the German spy during WW II, e.g.
16:21:09 <sbp> reminds me of TimBL's explanation of RDF vs. XML
16:21:18 <sbp> I'll expand my reference if you expand yours :-)
16:21:28 <jcowan> Oooh, ooooh!
16:21:42 <jcowan> His first telegram reads "ATOM BOMB". This tells the Germans almost all they need to know.
16:21:51 <jcowan> The second 'gram reads "OAK RIDGE TENN". This tells them the rest.
16:22:16 <sbp> "Without looking at the schema, you know things about the document structure, but nothing else. You can't tell what to deduce. You don't know whether ppppp is a y of qqqqq, or qqqqq is a z of ppppp or what." - http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/RDF-XML
16:22:32 <sbp> all/the rest: heh
16:22:36 <jcowan> TimBL's raspberries.
16:22:45 <sbp> ppppppppp
16:22:54 <valmont> valmont has quit ()
16:23:03 <jcowan> Scared him off, I guess.
16:23:51 <sbp> he's probably just off to scav some shizzynit from the gutterfairies
16:24:04 <jcowan> It's a particularly nice touch that the Randomizer is open source.
16:24:11 <jcowan> That way you can trust that it doesn't covertly leak information.
16:24:16 <sbp> so he's not even... yeah
16:24:52 <jcowan> Of course, looking at the schema doesn't help either.
16:25:04 <sbp> Dan Connolly said something recently on #swig that made me chuckle: I can't remember what program he was trying to install, something zope-related though I think, and he said it was the first time in N years or something where he hadn't read through the source before installing
16:25:13 <jcowan> But then again, an RDF inferencer may know lots of facts about a URI, but it can't reflect on any of them.
16:25:14 <sbp> no, not the way that most people design them
16:25:19 <sbp> I used to go off about that a lot
16:25:26 <sbp> syntactic schemata vs. semantic
16:25:39 <sbp> EricP did some nice schema annotation stuff
16:25:40 <jcowan> "Content is fancy form." --Doug Hofstadter
16:26:07 <sbp> crschmidt: do you remember the DanC quote?
16:26:17 <crschmidt> * crschmidt reads backscroll.
16:26:21 <themaximus__> themaximus__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:26:29 <sbp> only about ten lines
16:26:55 <themaximus__> themaximus__ (max@themaximus.user) has joined #swhack
16:27:38 <crschmidt> " but I have read at least parts of * the linux kernel * the X window system (though that was only the Xt libraries, which are only barely relevant these days. And motif. ew.) * emacs * mozilla (only small parts)" -- http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/swig/2005-04-15.html#T18-37-48
16:27:53 <crschmidt> not sure exactly which part he was talking about: I think he said he didn't trust Wordpress because he hadn't read the source
16:28:15 <sbp> thanks
16:28:20 <sbp> yeah, Wordpress
16:28:24 <sbp> that's the one
16:28:26 <crschmidt> "I'm having a hard time trusting wordpress. I haven't read the code. I wonder if there are any apps that I trust that I haven't read the code."
16:28:42 <sbp> and that's the exact quote I was remembering
16:28:44 <sbp> awesome. thanks!
16:29:04 <jcowan> * jcowan doesn't trust DanC because he hasn't read *his* source.
16:29:16 <crschmidt> DanC keep his source in CVS, I think
16:29:48 <crschmidt> Not sure if he's public
16:30:02 <crschmidt> I'd be interested in checking out the "Meeting time arrangement" module
16:30:14 <crschmidt> He documented it on IRC at one point, in an effort to teach it to sbp
16:30:15 <crschmidt> ;)
16:30:26 <sbp> don't remind me
16:30:39 <sbp> nailbiting
16:30:47 <sbp> very useful though
16:30:47 <jcowan> DanC's source is presumably a pair of Connollys.
16:31:10 <jcowan> Anical's source is a pair of doxies.
16:31:10 <Anical> jcowan: okay.
16:31:16 <jcowan> Anical's source?
16:31:17 <Anical> jcowan: 's source is a pair of doxies.
16:31:20 <jcowan> Bah.
16:31:25 <sbp> chuckle
16:31:37 <jcowan> @ignoring
16:31:37 <supybot> jcowan: Error: "ignoring" is not a valid command.
16:31:44 <jcowan> @ignore
16:31:55 <jcowan> Oops, that may have been too drastic
16:31:57 <jcowan> @help ignore
16:31:57 <supybot> jcowan: (ignore requires no arguments) -- Does nothing. Useful sometimes for sequencing commands when you don't care about their non-error return values.
16:32:05 <jcowan> Whew.
16:33:05 <sbp> supybot: ignore
16:33:08 <sbp> supybot: lalala ignore
16:33:09 <supybot> sbp: Error: "lalala" is not a valid command.
16:33:16 <jcowan> @oh do please stop
16:33:17 <supybot> jcowan: Error: "oh" is not a valid command.
16:33:32 <sbp> remember those commands that it ignores seemingly at random?
16:33:54 <jcowan> http://www.uncommon-ground.org/chalons/frogs.htm
16:33:56 <sbp> I just wondered if this was related
16:34:12 <jcowan> More likely netlag.
16:34:15 <jcowan> Anyhow, gotta whonk.
16:34:16 <jcowan> Ittywhonk!
16:34:20 <jcowan> jcowan has quit ("Bailing out")
16:34:58 <sbp> wittyhonk, jc
16:37:42 <sbp> .gc schlepping
16:37:44 <phenny> schlepping: 57,500
16:40:21 <AaronSw> AaronSw (~Snak@gork.Stanford.EDU) has joined #swhack
16:40:22 <Monty> hi AaronSw
16:40:31 <AaronSw> wow: http://pptkids.org/
16:41:27 <sbp> AaronSw: from http://swhack.com/logs/2005-05-23#T14-40-54 on downwards; I think you might find it very interesting
16:42:16 <Ash> kaboomed
16:42:17 <Ash> is you
16:42:22 <sbp> "Pray for these meetings asking God to help the President with His widsom." - probably a very good idea, actually
16:42:33 <sbp> hey Ash
16:42:44 <Ash> what is up
16:42:47 <AaronSw> I think your attributions of cause -- "patriotism", "nerve" -- are pretty off there.
16:43:11 <Ash> they're doing this because they hate our freedom
16:43:14 <Ash> duhhhhhhhhh
16:43:18 <AaronSw> And "not done research"? Have you followed this administration? I think maybe they were just expecting a democrat.
16:44:05 <sbp> well they certainly didn't do research on Galloway
16:44:22 <AaronSw> why do you say that?
16:44:37 <sbp> to what would you attribute the cause if not patriotism and nerve? I was mainly relaying what the journalists had said on the newspiece, don't forget
16:44:45 <AaronSw> ah
16:44:53 <AaronSw> it sa simple process of selection
16:45:43 <sbp> research on Galloway: again relaying the reporters (they laughed at how stupid the administration were for getting him over there on such trumped up charges), but I tend to agree; it seems to have been extremely bad press for them, and I don't think anyone who knew the slightest about George Galloway could've expected otherwise
16:46:47 <AaronSw> ah, i thought you meant about the mud
16:46:59 <sbp> nope
16:48:50 <AaronSw> man, i don't know when i'm gonna get a chance to sleep off dc
16:48:53 <AaronSw> gotta go to class
16:49:01 <AaronSw> bye
16:49:06 <sbp> c'ya. relax!
16:55:00 <redmonk> redmonk (~steve@216.185.189.148) has joined #swhack
16:55:25 <redmonk> anyone know of a good place to ask about linux, flumotion, and rtsp?
16:55:37 <redmonk> or, more generically, linux-based media streaming?
16:57:21 <kpreid> "It is a strong policy of mine to have as little as possible to do with people who invoke great and sweeping principles to explain why they themselves were in no way at fault."
16:58:06 <sbp> whose strong policy is that?
16:58:27 <kpreid> — http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002513.html#18271
16:58:36 <sbp> still on nielsenhayden.com, eh?
16:58:49 <kpreid> well, yes
16:59:21 <kpreid> i hadn't read the archives from the beginning till now
17:02:08 <Ash> * Ash yawns
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17:40:20 <AaronSw> AaronSw has quit ("Oops. This machine just fell asleep")
17:40:21 <jcowan> jcowan (~jcowan@a7cebc03.cst.lightpath.net) has joined #swhack
17:40:25 <kpreid> [[[
17:40:36 <kpreid> The squirrels in Chicago and St. Louis were pretty much your usual urban packrats. But, on the insanity level, they just didn't compare to the squirrels of Winston-Salem, NC. These squirrels has another name.
17:40:50 <kpreid> Fuseable Links.
17:41:01 <kpreid> They *loved* chewing on transformers. And, frequently, they'd take one bite too many. Then, bzapp, out go the lights. It got to the point were we started putting our alarm clocks on a UPS, and we'd always bring coffee out to the lineman who had to clean up flash-fried squirrel bits, and redo the wiring.
17:41:28 <kpreid> Every so often, the squirrel would bit it in just the right way, and the tranformer would short. Usually, this resulted in a very interesting whistle as the coolant became vapor and leaked out. Once, the whole thing went BANG, and rained down little transformer bits.
17:41:52 <kpreid> We brought biscuits and coffee for that lineman. He was amazed. "Folks, it'll be a while before you have power. Heck, it'll be a bit before you can get your car out (wires had fallen across the driveway.) I know I have to replace the transformer, but I might need to replace the pole."
17:42:07 <kpreid> (Thankfully, no PCBs were involved.)
17:42:17 <kpreid> They tried everything to stop the madness. Anything they put to keep the squirrles from running along the wire to the transformer, they got around.
17:42:31 <kpreid> I wasn't there when the family moved out, but my father, to his dying day, swears that, as they pulled out for the very last time, "bzapp." He didn't get out to check to see if the power was off. He just drove away, away from the land of the Mad Squirrels.
17:42:40 <kpreid> ]]] — http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002542.html#18695
17:42:58 <kpreid> and many other squirrel tales on that page
17:44:15 <jcowan> Then there was the woman's psychic dog that barked before the phone rang.
17:45:12 <valmont_> valmont_ (~chrisholl@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #swhack
17:46:22 <jcowan> http://www.big-boys.com/joke.asp?ID=878
17:51:52 <Morbus> Morbus (~morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
17:53:12 <Morbus> eh oh
17:53:24 <jcowan> Oh eh eh.
17:53:34 <Morbus> oh, hey.
17:53:44 <Morbus> * Morbus has been trying to fit ortho's all day.
17:53:50 <Morbus> fit/undertsands.
17:54:12 <jcowan> Orthopods? Orthographies?
17:54:26 <Morbus> hmm. do you have ccil.org anymore?
17:54:55 <jcowan> Yes.
17:55:02 <jcowan> er, that is, I have an account there.
17:55:06 <crschmidt> http://ccil.org/~cowan/
17:55:07 <Morbus> hrm. damn.
17:55:14 <Morbus> i think i may have sent to jcowan instead of cowan.
17:55:22 <Morbus> sbp: can you forward that email to jcowan?
17:55:23 <jcowan> No, I got it.
17:55:25 <Morbus> oh.
17:55:26 <jcowan> Just haven't had a chance to react.
17:55:37 <Morbus> * Morbus nods.
17:55:45 <redmonk> yo morb
17:55:49 <Morbus> I'm wondering if my six/eight sided thing is a bad idea from the get-go.
17:56:01 <jcowan> Pain in the ass to map.
17:56:01 <Morbus> so i've been rethinking it. but struggling with how people travel without a way-point
17:56:04 <Morbus> hey redmonk.
17:56:14 <jcowan> There is a discussion of gates somewhere.
17:56:16 <redmonk> the route of ages
17:56:18 <redmonk> !
17:56:22 <BigJibby> BigJibby (~matt@1Cust52.tnt4.dial.mtl1.uunet.ca) has joined #swhack
17:56:23 <Monty> howdy, BigJibby
17:56:29 <Morbus> jcowan: well, in some cases, it'd be easier. because instead of having a gigantic rectangular map that is really tiny, which is what the ascii map will come.
17:56:34 <Morbus> i can just have separate ortho maps instead.
17:56:41 <BigJibby> howdy Monty
17:56:43 <Morbus> with connecting lines at the way-points.
17:56:44 <Monty> I reckon strawberries + criticism = flavour >:)
17:56:45 <jcowan> Separate ortho maps are fine, rectangular or hexagonal.
17:57:01 <jcowan> I take it that the theory is that just walking never gets you to a new ortho.
17:57:02 <Morbus> the 8 sided thign originally came from the fact that i started dreaming about /octogonalites/
17:57:10 <Morbus> not orthos. and that screwed me all up
17:57:26 <Morbus> jcowan: well, there are a few cheesy-ish ways to handle it.
17:57:35 <Morbus> in D&D planescape, there /were/ portal-things like just walking.
17:57:50 <Morbus> and in D&D Ravenloft, there was fog. once you got in the fog, you'd magically get to a new land once you exited the fog.
17:57:59 <Morbus> and, in my email, "sleep" is the same sorta transport.
17:58:04 <Morbus> but that sleep is based on a way-point.
17:58:04 <jcowan> Oh, I think you can walk through the portal.
17:58:15 <jcowan> But if you walk around it, you just continue in Ghyll.
17:58:26 <Morbus> but, a portal is a very physical manifestation that requires explanation sorta. sleep can be mystical, blah blah
17:58:38 <Morbus> jcowan: "continue in" => "circle around"?
17:58:57 <jcowan> I presume Ghyll is the surface of a sphere and all, but I don't think that's established.
17:59:09 <Morbus> it's not, no.
17:59:24 <Morbus> and i was getting the impression from the earth explanation of ortho that sbp didn't think so either.
17:59:33 <jcowan> "Think"?
17:59:38 <jcowan> A dangerous word.
17:59:49 <Morbus> heh. i have no clue what sbp waw thinking. i can't find his original text that he deleted.
17:59:55 <Morbus> but, ortho means right angle.
18:00:06 <Morbus> and that is throwng me for a loop on how to handle that.
18:00:12 <jcowan> It's conceptual.
18:00:27 <jcowan> The fourth dimension e.g. is at right angles to the three known spatial dimensions.
18:00:42 <jcowan> Doesn't mean you can map it.
18:01:00 <Morbus> so, how/what does that mean in Ghyll?
18:01:09 <Morbus> this'd have to be some mystical knowledge.
18:02:19 <sbp> this is odd: I have no idea where I jotted this stuff down
18:02:27 <sbp> it's not in the Ghyll wiki so far as I can find
18:02:31 <sbp> it's not in the #swhack logs
18:02:34 <Morbus> sbp: its not on Ortho. I thought it might be in your notepad somewhere.
18:02:37 <sbp> and it's not in my privmsg logs with Morbus
18:02:40 <jcowan> * jcowan reads Xurient article which is QSS
18:02:46 <Morbus> what does QSS mean, btw?
18:02:56 <sbp> I'm pretty sure that I had a very well formed view of Orthogonalities
18:03:07 <sbp> I still remember much of it, but I would like to check over my notes
18:03:08 <jcowan> "Quod scripsi, scripsi" = "What I have written, I have written"
18:03:10 <Morbus> yeh, which is what i was looking for.
18:03:23 <jcowan> * jcowan looks for Xurient in Wikipedia, fails.
18:03:34 <Morbus> cos, i'm beginnign to become "fine" with the planar concept, cos one of my favaorite D&D worlds EVA (Planescape) uses that to great extent.
18:03:50 <sbp> ah
18:03:51 <Morbus> but, I can't remeber if your description had /anything/ to do with planes.
18:03:51 <themaximus__> themaximus__ has quit (Connection timed out)
18:03:53 <sbp> Morbus: http://gamegrene.com/wiki/Talk:Rancticirchiretic
18:03:53 <jcowan> * jcowan looks on gamegrene.org, fails again.
18:04:00 <Morbus> but, one of joe bwoers recent commetns got me thinking of planes again
18:04:13 <sbp> hence...
18:04:22 <Morbus> [[[
18:04:22 <Morbus> Antiquation analysis has been an attractive sphere of study to many generations of scholars because of its origins in one of the great mythic romances of our culture, as well as its, ah, familiarity and completeness. Unfortunately, other than in certain very specific cartographic and navigational domains, novel results or applications of antiquational analysis are rather rare.
18:04:23 <Morbus> ]]]
18:04:25 <sbp> http://gamegrene.com/wiki/?title=Rancticirchiretic&oldid=3963
18:04:28 <sbp> right at the bottom
18:04:35 <sbp> there may be more in subsequent revisions too
18:04:58 <Morbus> yeah.
18:05:01 <Morbus> i don't understand it.
18:05:02 <Morbus> * Morbus rereads.
18:05:44 <sbp> jcowan hit it on the head with his dimensionality point
18:05:50 <jcowan> Yeah.
18:06:00 <jcowan> Do we take it as written that the Xurient is a separate orthogonality?
18:06:06 <sbp> the orthogonalities are planes which intersect at one another in right angles in four dimensional space
18:06:08 <Morbus> well, visual... hold boss.
18:06:16 <sbp> * sbp holds Morbus's boss
18:06:30 <BigJibby> BigJibby has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:06:47 <jcowan> four as in 3 space + 1 time, then.
18:06:50 <sbp> jcowan: it must be, yes
18:06:59 <JibberJim> JibberJim (~none@82-43-210-159.cable.ubr10.newm.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
18:06:59 <jcowan> I think that all orthos have the same proper time.
18:07:07 <sbp> hmm? four dimensional *space*
18:07:15 <sbp> yes, agreed
18:07:23 <sbp> so four of space and one of time
18:07:34 <Morbus> ok, say i want to visualize the O's. would a proper visualization (such that I can't visual in 4D) be just floating platters, which are connected in different locations by lines which represent their intersection? and thus, these intersections are turning point, and thus, this is where portal/structures are built to faciliate travel?
18:07:42 <jcowan> So when the Xurient article says where the Xurient is, it's actually telling you how to get there.
18:08:00 <sbp> Morbus: the best way for you to visualize it is like a waffle, I think, or any kind of lattice
18:08:10 <jcowan> * jcowan got lost with that one.
18:08:12 <Morbus> a flat lattice like a waffle, or a 3-d lattice like a cube?
18:08:21 <Morbus> like a cube of waffles.
18:08:22 <sbp> just a flat waffle for now
18:08:27 <sbp> imagine each line in the lattice as being a surface in Ghyll--an orthogonality
18:08:38 <jcowan> Ah.
18:08:48 <sbp> now, to a person living on one of those lines--one of those orthogonalities--they can only look up and down the line
18:08:53 <Morbus> as a flat surface, or a surface on its side?
18:08:57 <sbp> they can't look sideways because sideways doesn't exist
18:09:15 <jcowan> We are projecting the surface of Ghyll, taken as flat, onto a single line.
18:09:18 <sbp> like a grid that you have in tic tac toe
18:09:23 <sbp> yeah
18:09:56 <jcowan> sbp: your notes say that distances between turning points increase as one approaches the borders.
18:10:00 <jcowan> Should that not be decrease?
18:10:05 <Morbus> so, if i'm looking down at a waffle, and focusing on one vertical line, that is the entirety of ghyll?
18:10:15 <Morbus> as if i were a god looking down upon the cities?
18:10:19 <jcowan> No.
18:10:36 <sbp> jcowan: I've no idea what shape would account for that, but that was a very particular part of the design, that they should increase away from the centre
18:10:38 <jcowan> All the cities are on one line, call it north-south; east-west distinctions are lost here.
18:11:03 <jcowan> The Xurient's cities are on an east-west line (north-south distinction is lost there).
18:11:06 <sbp> I was thinking a little of the balloon model of the universe, where all points appear to be the "centre" because we're on the skin of the balloon and so everything's moving away from everyhting else
18:11:15 <jcowan> sbp: let's get Morb up to speed first.
18:11:21 <sbp> yeah, sorry
18:11:38 <sbp> perhaps a tunnel is a better analogy
18:11:51 <Morbus> is "one line" the entire vertical length of the waffle, or just one vertical line of one lattice segment.
18:12:00 <jcowan> The entire vertical length.
18:12:03 <sbp> one line
18:12:05 <sbp> heh, heh
18:12:11 <jcowan> Arrgh.
18:12:13 <Morbus> ok. and that's one O? representing the current map of ghyll?
18:12:28 <sbp> yes
18:12:40 <sbp> so imagine your tic tac toe grid
18:12:42 <_chimezie> _chimezie (~ogbujic@192.35.79.81) has joined #swhack
18:12:52 <jcowan> sbp: but the main line intersects many orthogonalities, no?
18:13:00 <sbp> _|_|_
18:13:00 <sbp> _|_|_
18:13:00 <sbp> | |
18:13:03 <Morbus> so, visualzing the known map of ghyll onto this one line, length irrelevant, am I looking down upon it? or is it just a concept that one line = the entirety of ghyll?
18:13:05 <sbp> right, this isn't a perfect model
18:13:26 <sbp> no, one line is one orthogonality
18:13:31 <sbp> look at how they intersect
18:13:32 <jcowan> You take the map of ghyll, scrunch it into a vertical line, and let it be the leftmost line on sbp's grid.
18:13:37 <sbp> in the tic tac toe diagram:
18:13:39 <sbp> _|_|_
18:13:39 <sbp> _|_|_
18:13:39 <sbp> | |
18:13:43 <sbp> you've got four lines, right?
18:13:49 <sbp> each of those is an orthagonality
18:14:01 <sbp> but they also intersect, at four different points
18:14:03 <Morbus> so, ghyll may be V1.
18:14:16 <sbp> now, you can't see from one orthagonality into another orthagonality
18:14:17 <Morbus> right, V1a|b, V2a|b?
18:14:18 <jcowan> And the Xurient may be H1.
18:14:31 <sbp> because they're at right angles. but you can see into them--and travel between them--at the intersections
18:14:48 <sbp> well, the idea I had for Ghyll is a bit more complex
18:14:50 <jcowan> Indeed, the danger is that you will turn off onto an ortho without realizing it.
18:14:56 <sbp> right
18:15:02 <sbp> just fall into it in a sense
18:15:07 <Morbus> * Morbus scratches.
18:15:09 <sbp> and that danger increases when you get to the outside
18:15:15 <jcowan> Why?
18:15:17 <sbp> so the idea I had is that there are more intersections on the outside
18:15:31 <sbp> why? I don't know, I'm not a Ghyll creation theory dude
18:15:33 <jcowan> Yes; more intersections = *less* distance between each.
18:15:38 <sbp> I just tell you how it is, not how it got there
18:15:38 <jcowan> Contrary to what you said.
18:15:44 <Morbus> i guess, what i'd like, is to make Ortho a blurb on EC, much like [[EC]] is a blurb on [[Encyclopedant Calendar]].
18:15:51 <sbp> how is that contrary to what I said?
18:15:55 <Morbus> and i'd like an idiots explanation of it.
18:15:57 <Morbus> <g>
18:16:14 <sbp> less intersections, more distance between intersections, in the middle of the main orthagonality
18:16:16 <Morbus> er, ortho a blurb on WhereIsWhere
18:16:31 <jcowan> sbp: Ah, I took "they" in "Rancticirchiretic measured the distance between the turning points where three planes conjoin and found that they increase exponentially as one travels towards the borders of Ghyll" to refer to the distances, not the turning points.
18:16:31 <sbp> more intersections, less distance between intersections, at the edges of the main orthagonality
18:16:37 <Morbus> so, is the term "right angle" exactingly literal?
18:16:42 <sbp> ah!
18:16:45 <sbp> excellent
18:16:46 <Morbus> as per the wikipedia example of two streets converging?
18:16:56 <sbp> Morbus: not sure
18:17:05 <sbp> I'm not really up on four dimensional topology
18:17:07 <jcowan> It's exactingly literal in the fourth dimension.
18:17:13 <sbp> I don't think it matters, to be honest
18:17:16 <Morbus> "Two streets that cross each other at a right angle are orthogonal to each other."
18:17:19 <sbp> since none of the Ghyllians can actually measure it
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18:18:02 <jcowan> When you go around a four-dimensional corner, you don't know it.
18:18:04 <Morbus> sbp: would you be willing to re-work-on your Ortho description and perfect it, out-of-turn (ie. soon).
18:18:18 <sbp> well they could be right angles in 4D space, then, but curved in 5D space. again, it totally doesn't matter, as jcowan notes
18:18:25 <sbp> yes...
18:18:28 <jcowan> Contrary to what sbp says, I don't think you can *see* into another ortho, as that would give light very funky properties.
18:18:28 <Morbus> how is the Xurient 231 east of known ghyll? how does that relate to an ortho?
18:18:33 <sbp> though I'm a little surprised that you're still into this
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18:18:40 <Morbus> still into what?
18:18:52 <sbp> jcowan: I'd be willing to write that out of it, if it causes problems
18:18:59 <sbp> still into the idea of orthagonalities
18:19:06 <sbp> I mean, if it's causing you problems to think about
18:19:06 <Morbus> well, I don't have much a choice anymore.
18:19:10 <sbp> it seems to have niggled you
18:19:28 <sbp> like "ooh, that's interesting, argh but it sucks, eek, but I must know! sbippity!"
18:19:37 <Morbus> it's part of the game now, and apparently, some ortho's have different scientific properies than another, per Antiquation.
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18:19:48 <sbp> well, yes, but I eradicated all trace of it
18:19:51 <sbp> except the name
18:19:52 <Morbus> and the only way i can justify /that/ is different plane equivalents.
18:20:13 <sbp> in fact, even the name; I think you phantomed it :-)
18:20:14 <Morbus> "Antiquation analysis has been an attractive sphere of study to many generations of scholars because of its origins in one of the great mythic romances of our culture, as well as its, ah, familiarity and completeness. Unfortunately, other than in certain very specific cartographic and navigational domains, novel results or applications of antiquational analysis are rather rare."
18:20:18 <jcowan> Unlike, say, the Astral Plane, there is a definite point on the map where you can pass into a given ortho.
18:20:36 <Morbus> no, Acrkyod did.
18:20:41 <sbp> yeah. did I write that Folktown is on one of the intersections?
18:20:43 <sbp> ah, okay
18:20:50 <Morbus> but, I'm fearing that anyone else besides us three who defines it is NOT going to give it the attention/explanation it deserves.
18:20:53 <sbp> I was thinking about places growing up on them
18:21:01 <Morbus> which is why i wanna make it an encyclopedant answer/page,.
18:21:14 <sbp> well, the lattice/tunnels explanation is fairly good
18:21:19 <Morbus> tunnels?
18:21:28 <Morbus> yeah, there's a Mother Mutton's book on ortho's.
18:21:31 <Morbus> maybe you should write that or something.
18:21:34 <sbp> yeah, just think of it all as a network of tunnels
18:21:41 <sbp> hehe
18:21:52 <Morbus> "Mother Mutton went on to publish a few other Golden Books (such as the "Golden Book of Orthogonalities, Neither Orthogonal Nor Nervous, But Always Coloring Fun")"
18:22:21 <Morbus> sbp: did you ever read my http://gamegrene.com/wiki/Mother_Mutton%27s_Golden_Books?
18:22:23 <Morbus> i liked it alot.
18:22:39 <jcowan> The Xurient is *not* 231 leles east of known Ghyll, but that *is* how to get there.
18:22:47 <sbp> looking
18:23:12 <Morbus> jcowan: so, the way-point, transport, structure to get to the Xurient Ortho is 231 leles east, but not the O itself.
18:23:17 <sbp> yeah, I did
18:23:24 <sbp> I like how you salvaged and built
18:23:26 <jcowan> Just so.
18:23:31 <sbp> actually I think I discussed it with you too
18:23:40 <sbp> the intersection
18:23:41 <Morbus> so, in which case, where are those 231 leles?
18:23:48 <Morbus> are they in the ghyll ortho? another ortho?
18:23:50 <jcowan> On the main ortho.
18:23:56 <jcowan> Presumably.
18:24:02 <Morbus> so, the ghyll ortho would be roughly 500 leles across then.
18:24:07 <jcowan> No.
18:24:09 <sbp> how can you write about a place that's in an unknown place?
18:24:11 <jcowan> There are many turning points.
18:24:24 <sbp> "east of known Ghyll" doesn't make sense when you're describing something in it
18:24:25 <Morbus> sbp: huh?
18:24:36 <sbp> <jcowan> The Xurient is *not* 231 leles east of known Ghyll, but that *is* how to get there.
18:24:38 <Morbus> known Ghyll is "the current map" <g>
18:25:09 <jcowan> So if you walk east 231 leles from the eastern edge of the map, and turn the four-dimensional corner, you are in the Xurient.
18:25:16 <jcowan> Of course, walking west in the Xurient won't get you back.
18:25:32 <Morbus> because you'd be walking west in the xurient, not west back into ghyll.
18:25:37 <jcowan> Right.
18:25:42 <kpreid> jcowan: how odd, and yet not, to see you show up in another channel I'm in
18:25:51 <jcowan> Yeah.
18:26:02 <Morbus> so, how big is the ghyll ortho? does it contain the xurient waypoint, 231 leles east?
18:26:14 <jcowan> We don't know.
18:26:15 <sbp> the main ortho
18:26:29 <jcowan> Perhaps you have to turn several corners to get to the Xurient.
18:26:40 <jcowan> zigzagging across the waffle, as it were.
18:26:47 <sbp> well, another point:
18:26:58 <sbp> I thought that all orthagonalities can be reached in one turn from the main one
18:26:58 <Morbus> jcowan: well, if that's the case, then "231 leles east" would have to be expanded to include 231 leles of walking distance, but not necessarily in a 3D line.
18:27:03 <jcowan> sbp: it occurs to me that the turning *point* is really a turning *line*, since surfaces intersect in lines.
18:27:30 <sbp> and that the same is true for all orthogonalities: that is, that there's a turning point into every orthogonality from any given orthogonality
18:27:37 <sbp> hmm
18:27:44 <jcowan> Morbus: It is a 3D line, but not a 4D line: 3D organisms can't detect going around 4D corners.
18:27:55 <jcowan> sbp: Not by the waffle model.
18:28:03 <sbp> well the waffle model is just a model
18:28:12 <jcowan> There is no turning point from the left vertical line on the grid to the right vertical line.
18:28:22 <jcowan> You have to transition at least two turning points to get there.
18:28:36 <sbp> I mean, I can't even draw what it'd look like if it were the waffle model scaled up, since we've only got three dimensions
18:28:42 <Morbus> jcowan: could they detect then, the difference between two ortho's? they may not detect that they've crossed into the xurient, but surely when they turn around, they'll see the xurient behind them, not the ghyll they just left?
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18:29:05 <jcowan> Well, that's why it's funky to claim you can see into another ortho.
18:29:19 <sbp> jcowan: perhaps imagine two pieces of paper that are both convex and touching at only one point
18:29:20 <Morbus> so, when they cross, what happens to what they looked at in front of them?
18:29:34 <jcowan> Well, it may be all jungle.
18:29:35 <Morbus> is it the same landscpae they saw five minutes ago? or does it magically and instantly change to the new ortho?
18:29:41 <sbp> now imagine that for lots of pieces of paper, in a weird assed complex mess
18:29:43 <jcowan> Or desert, or what have you.
18:30:09 <jcowan> sbp: I think that's too complex. You'd never find your way back home, ever.
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18:30:14 <sbp> Morbus: it's hard to know since we can't move about ourselves in four dimensions, only conceive of it
18:30:15 <jcowan> And there is trade with the Xurient, so people do.
18:30:30 <Morbus> right, but if its a desert with mountains in the distance, then 5 feet in one ortho you see the mountains, and five feet in another ortho, is it the same mountains? different mountains? if it were the same, wouldn't that suggest seeing into another? and if they were different, wouldn't that cause a noticable "Detection" that /something/ has happened, 3-d or otherwise?
18:30:34 <jcowan> sbp: or perhaps we do move about in four dimensions sometimes and don't know it.
18:30:42 <sbp> well again, that's the model: that there are so many around the edges that navigation is difficult
18:30:48 <sbp> but that there so few in the middle that it's easy
18:30:56 <jcowan> That wouldn't be difficult, it would be impossible.
18:30:56 <sbp> so Xurient would have to be made central... somehow
18:31:08 <jcowan> In the waffle model, nothing is central.
18:31:15 <sbp> forget the waffle model!
18:31:21 <jcowan> But there is a difference between vertical and horizontal orthos, which may be bad.
18:31:22 <sbp> it was just to explain dimensions to Morbus
18:31:33 <jcowan> * jcowan likes the waffle model!
18:31:46 <jcowan> * jcowan dislikes sentences of the form "Forget X!"
18:31:55 <crschmidt> Anical: forget X!
18:31:55 <sbp> no, see you're still thinking in terms of the waffle model with your "vertical" and "horizontal"
18:31:56 <Anical> crschmidt: I forgot about X!
18:32:04 <sbp> this could be an immensely chaotic shape
18:32:12 <sbp> it could be Mandelbroesque
18:32:12 <Morbus> sbp/jcowan: perhaps you could both write/agree on a thing and Mother Mutton it?
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18:32:16 <Monty> lo md-afk
18:32:28 <Morbus> I'd like to get it resolved relatively soon.
18:32:33 <Morbus> as there are a number of players creating new locations.
18:32:34 <sbp> dropped a t there somewhere
18:32:38 <Morbus> and these new locations have to be /somewhere/.
18:32:48 <jcowan> Well, I can live with every ortho accessible from every other, I guess.
18:32:53 <sbp> Morbus: see, this is why it comes in handy :-)
18:33:10 <Morbus> sbp: well, all the areas created so far are in relation to known ghyll, so that's fine.
18:33:18 <sbp> it's the ultimate fiction "need more space!" hack
18:33:19 <Morbus> but, I'm not sure I like every ortho being accessible from every other.
18:33:25 <sbp> borrow from another dimension
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18:33:39 <jcowan> Immediately accessible, that is, as opposed to accessible via some other ortho.
18:33:43 <jcowan> We need to nail that point down.
18:33:45 <Morbus> right.
18:33:47 <sbp> yeah
18:33:52 <Morbus> I don't like being able to go everywhere from folktown.
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18:33:53 <sbp> so you only need to go by one intersection
18:34:01 <Morbus> right. i don't like that.
18:34:01 <jcowan> Morbus: doesn't imply that.
18:34:09 <sbp> but again, that intersection might be lost in an extremely dense forest of intersections
18:34:13 <jcowan> Just that you can get everywhere from the main ortho without traveling on any other ortho.
18:34:39 <Morbus> yeah, i'd much rather there be a journey/discovery element of crossing multiple ortho's to get somewhere.
18:34:51 <Morbus> the other seems too star trekky - "you can get to everywhere from here".
18:34:56 <sbp> so though you can reach any other orthogonality from any given orthogonality, that doesn't mean that it's as *easy* to reach each ortho as the next, as is ably demonstrated by the main ortho's property of being sparse in the middle and dense on the edges
18:35:21 <Morbus> you lost me.
18:35:24 <sbp> get to everywhere from here: but see what I just said
18:35:29 <sbp> ah. well, consider
18:35:44 <sbp> in the main orth, there are a few intersections in the middle, in the known part of Ghyll
18:36:02 <sbp> so in the middle of Ghyll, you can cross easily to like 10 or so other well-known orths
18:36:18 <sbp> crap, Ghyll == the main orth
18:36:25 <sbp> what we now call Ghyll
18:36:33 <jcowan> Let Ghyll *be* the main ortho.
18:36:38 <jcowan> The whole thing is MetaGhyll.
18:36:42 <sbp> heh, heh
18:36:50 <sbp> but as you get towards the edge of the map, then the intersections start to increase
18:36:56 <jcowan> After all, "Ghyllians" means people who live on the main ortho.
18:37:01 <sbp> suddenly, it gets to the point where there's an intersection every few years
18:37:09 <sbp> every few yards, sorry. really tired
18:37:21 <sbp> so you can't help but fall into another ortho at some point
18:37:26 <sbp> so that's *really* perilous
18:37:38 <Morbus> so, where does Xurient being 231 leles away fit in?
18:37:40 <sbp> which explains why Ghyll, the main orth, is so tightly constricted in its space
18:37:53 <sbp> 231 leles away is still roughly central, we can say
18:37:59 <Morbus> but, and this is apoint of contention, I still don't think ghyll is constricted.
18:38:03 <sbp> it's in an area which isn't dense in the intersections
18:38:11 <Morbus> ghyll is no more constricted than any terriroty.
18:38:14 <sbp> heh. I'd say a few hundred miles is pretty constricted
18:38:15 <jcowan> sbp: do you see Ghyll as flat?
18:38:17 <Morbus> on any american state.
18:38:24 <sbp> I mean, it's like they're Hobbits or something
18:38:48 <Morbus> sbp: so, you see /no/ parrallel between the neighboring towns of your home than the neightboring towns of ghyll?
18:38:54 <sbp> right, but if any people were constrained to an American state... can you envisage that? the Vikings found America, the Roman empire spanned a continent
18:39:03 <Morbus> i see ghyll right now as, fuck, Rhode Island or something, of America.
18:39:11 <Morbus> we're expanding outward, not defining all of the US upfront.
18:39:17 <sbp> prehistoric nomads probably crossed more land in their lifetime than the Ghyllians have explored in thosands of years of history!
18:39:31 <sbp> jcowan: flat in which way? there are mountains
18:39:33 <Morbus> sbp: right, but this is a meta-game-story-rule.
18:39:40 <jcowan> In its metric.
18:39:42 <Morbus> if you were descrbing all of california.
18:39:45 <sbp> what's a meta-game-story-rule?
18:39:48 <Morbus> and i was describing all of new hampshire.
18:39:53 <jcowan> i.e do the angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees exactly?
18:39:54 <sbp> jcowan: its metric? I'm lost, sorry
18:39:57 <Morbus> it's very difficult to link a whore in California to a phantom in new hampshire.
18:40:14 <sbp> oh, I see
18:40:16 <Morbus> but, if we were describing both towns in California, the phantom explnaation is far easier.
18:40:20 <sbp> hmm...
18:40:21 <Morbus> so, it was a metagame rule.
18:40:23 <jcowan> Earth is not flat but spherical; the angles of a triangle are more than 180 deg.
18:40:25 <Morbus> expand outward.
18:40:25 <eaon> eaon (~mzeltner@chello080109034055.10.14.vie.surfer.at) has joined #swhack
18:40:25 <Monty> Thank goodness, eaon is back!
18:40:27 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
18:40:29 <Monty> I reckon bacteria + cheesy bits = Buddha?
18:40:35 <eaon> How about inward?
18:40:41 <jcowan> No, Buddha + bacteria = cheesy bits!
18:40:43 <sbp> yes, I think it's flattish in 3D space
18:40:52 <sbp> but it could be curved immensely in higher dimensions
18:41:12 <jcowan> I'm talking about what the Ghyllians can measure;
18:41:13 <Morbus> sbp: so, do you see why i disagree with your constriction? i have /never/ felt that this is /all/ of Ghyll - but rather that this is a very tiny part of it, where the phantoms interrelate easier.
18:41:15 <jcowan> i.e. local properties.
18:41:22 <jcowan> I agree.
18:41:31 <sbp> they'd probably do a canal test and find it basically pretty flat
18:41:55 <sbp> well it's clearly not all of Ghyll if we're bringing in orthos
18:42:05 <jcowan> Okay. So Folktown is really the center of Ghyll, and not just in the sense that London is the center of the British Empire?
18:42:08 <jcowan> Ghyll = main ortho
18:42:12 <jcowan> all orthos = MetaGhyll
18:42:44 <sbp> yes, but on the other hand that would make the orth that leads off from it very famous indeed, and therefore a bit odd that we haven't mentioned it yet
18:43:06 <sbp> so I'm inclined to think that there shouldn't really be one there, but that perhaps it's in the *center* of a few intersections
18:43:26 <sbp> and I think they'd've considered the intersections pretty freaky places
18:43:47 <sbp> but useful. like people think of volcanos
18:43:53 <sbp> fertile land, scary explosions
18:44:06 <sbp> so there'd be towns by the intersections, but not right *on* the intersections
18:44:23 <sbp> though I wanted to do a little plot about the BOFK trying to build a structure over an intersection
18:44:24 <jcowan> The intersection in Folktown is probably not known.
18:44:28 <sbp> and it having weird properties and stuff
18:44:43 <sbp> not known? it'd be weird to live right on top of one and not know it
18:44:44 <jcowan> half the staff disappears when trying to come to dinner.
18:44:50 <sbp> heh, heh
18:45:05 <Morbus> for what its worth, in Planescape, there was a center city, Sigil. And within sigil were portals to all the other planes, but they were often hidden, like in a certain garbage can, or protected by guards, or under a building, etc.
18:45:05 <sbp> woah
18:45:12 <sbp> that'd be an *awesome* Gerth plot
18:45:37 <sbp> "The poor Gerth people are unaware that all of their socks are piling up in their neighbouring Sockian Orthogonality."
18:45:57 <jcowan> Okay, this is very clear to me now.
18:46:04 <jcowan> I should probably write it down before it gets away.
18:46:09 <Morbus> ok, so someone Mother Mutton it in a notepad or something.
18:46:13 <jcowan> An idea!
18:46:15 <Morbus> both of you do it, actually.
18:46:33 <sbp> I'll do it in the morning. totally knackered
18:46:38 <jcowan> how to reconcile the fact that there are surfaces with the idea of transition *points*.
18:46:38 <Morbus> cos there's gonna be some sort of Ortho Primer for the WhereIsWhere page.
18:46:48 <sbp> jcowan: oh?
18:46:50 <jcowan> I'll write it up on the wiki, you comment/rewrite.
18:46:56 <sbp> okay, will do!
18:46:58 <jcowan> You can only transition where *three* orthos meet.
18:47:08 <sbp> ooh
18:47:11 <Morbus> hrm. i like that idea.
18:47:23 <jcowan> So the transition line is really a line, but only at certain points on the line is transition possible, and into either of two other orthos.
18:47:27 <Morbus> that satisifies by "strenous journey discovery" wants.
18:47:49 <sbp> oih
18:47:51 <sbp> er, oh
18:47:52 <jcowan> Morbus: this article can't be an encyclopedia article, because it presumes more than the in-game scholars actually know.
18:47:58 <sbp> it looks like that was my original intention
18:47:59 <sbp> "Rancticirchiretic measured the distance between the turning points where three planes conjoin and found that they increase exponentially as one travels towards the borders of Ghyll"
18:48:00 <jcowan> * jcowan grunts: oih oih
18:48:11 <sbp> the turning points where three planes conjoin
18:48:23 <jcowan> Egg-zactly!
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18:48:25 <Morbus> jcowan: well, there should be something that can explain the /creation/ of the name "Orthogonality" and a general map of the beliefs of what it means and traveling.
18:48:43 <jsled> ping
18:48:45 <phenny> jsled: 21 May 17:54Z <crschmidt> tell jsled he's not logged into idlerpg
18:48:49 <phenny> jsled: 11:16Z <crschmidt> tell jsled not logged into idlerpg
18:48:59 <jcowan> I mean, what I'm writing takes the God's-eye view.
18:49:22 <Morbus> jcowan: so, where does god-view being and ghyll-view end?
18:49:26 <Morbus> *begin.
18:49:38 <Morbus> cos orthogonality is already in-game, so there has to be someone inside ghyll that has an idea what i means.
18:49:40 <Morbus> *it
18:50:03 <jcowan> That's up to whoever writes the article.
18:50:07 <sbp> well Rancticirchiretic was, for me, the person who came up with a lot of the infos about orthos
18:50:11 <jcowan> The article on orthos tells what they believe.
18:50:14 <Morbus> well, that's the thign. I don't want the article to be written anymore.
18:50:17 <jcowan> My notes tell the way it really is.
18:50:20 <Morbus> I want Ortho to become an [[EC]] sorta page.
18:50:23 <sbp> just like Newton found out about gravity, but everyone knew it was around
18:50:26 <Morbus> I don't want Ortho to be a phantom anymore.
18:50:40 <jcowan> Fair enough, and much less confusing gamewise.
18:50:43 <Morbus> I want Ortho to become an intro/blurb/explanation on the WhereIsWhere page.
18:50:49 <jcowan> There is after all no article on north, south, east, and west.
18:50:52 <Morbus> and Ortho phantom points to there, much like [[unanit]] points to Chesix.
18:50:59 <Morbus> e xcactly.
18:51:04 <sbp> up, down, strange, charm, ...
18:51:12 <jcowan> beauty, truth.
18:51:16 <sbp> :-)
18:51:28 <Morbus> so, if WhereIsWhere is an out-of-game in-game page, much like WhoIsWho or the Phantoms page, then we can God's eye view it fine.
18:51:36 <Morbus> and/or perhaps include a sidebar on what Ghyllians bleieve.
18:51:47 <jcowan> Maybe.
18:51:48 <Morbus> actually, that's the approach I would take: in-game AND out-of-game explanations.
18:51:55 <jcowan> The author of Xurient obviously doesn't understand ortho theory.
18:52:10 <Morbus> well, recall, that /I/ made the distance up.
18:52:15 <Morbus> in an earlier entry. he's just copying me.
18:52:23 <sbp> Morbus obviously doesn't understand ortho theory
18:52:25 <Morbus> I made the length up to satify my "must be on the map somewhere" decision.
18:52:28 <jcowan> This also allows Ghyll to be effectively finite though unbounded.
18:52:30 <sbp> :-)
18:52:44 <Morbus> no, I don't. I think I'm too stuck in Planescape mode at the moment.
18:52:45 <jcowan> It just becomes impossible to avoid crossing a transition point when there are millions of them in each step.
18:53:00 <Morbus> which is why I'd like an edited, Muttonish approach unrestrained to IRC shortern memory <G>
18:53:13 <jcowan> From the flat viewpoint of Ghyll, it amounts to this:
18:53:15 <sbp> and it's easy to get immensely lost
18:53:24 <sbp> so people won't even bother trying to explore
18:53:27 <jcowan> there are points at which you can cross into either of two other orthos
18:53:32 <jcowan> you may not realize it
18:53:40 <jcowan> these points become more common the further from Folktown
18:54:02 <jcowan> Whereas in Planescape the object takes you to only one other plane
18:54:04 <jcowan> you know it
18:54:12 <jcowan> they are randomly distributed around the landscape.
18:54:19 <Morbus> randomly and permanently?
18:54:32 <sbp> I think the crossing point would look a little shimmery, where the light sometimes accidentally falls into it, but generally nothing out of the ordinary
18:54:35 <jcowan> I don't know planescape.
18:54:40 <sbp> and that to cross, you sort of have to fling yourself at it
18:54:43 <sbp> again and again
18:54:45 <jcowan> I'm just working from your distribution.
18:54:55 <sbp> until you wind up in the ortho of your choosing
18:55:01 <jcowan> er, description, not distribution.
18:55:04 <Morbus> so, if these waypoints are intersections of three ortho's, and you cross into one, can you go back?
18:55:07 <sbp> so on average you only have to do it once or twice
18:55:07 <jcowan> Yes.
18:55:13 <sbp> but it might take like five goes, every now and then
18:55:15 <Morbus> can you go "oh shit, whoops" and go back a step to return to your ortho?
18:55:22 <sbp> see what I just wrote
18:55:37 <jcowan> sbp: remember the possibility that you pass into the third ortho
18:55:44 <jcowan> which perhaps is not compatible with Ghyllinoid life
18:55:44 <Morbus> yeah, i think that's what he's saying.
18:55:49 <sbp> yeah, that's what I meant
18:55:50 <Morbus> that you don't get to choose which ortho you go into.
18:55:56 <Morbus> you have to keep trying until you get to where you want.
18:55:57 <jcowan> Yes, it's random.
18:56:20 <jcowan> But it *is* symmetric, in the sense that backtracking from B back to A will at worst take you to C, not somewhere else altogether.
18:56:33 <sbp> so where P, Q, and R intersect, if you fling yourself at the intersection, you have a 1/3 chance of landing in either of P, Q, or R
18:56:43 <sbp> right
18:56:48 <sbp> so if you want to get from P to R
18:56:56 <sbp> and you fling yourself at it, but you find yourself in Q
18:56:56 <Morbus> yeah, ok. i like and understand this.
18:57:01 <sbp> you can just fling yourself at it again
18:57:06 <sbp> you might land in P again
18:57:07 <Morbus> its like planescape, only with a portal leading you to two random places, not just one.
18:57:09 <jcowan> It also explains the Pretty Impressive Fence.
18:57:15 <sbp> so you fling yourself at it again, and whee, R
18:57:28 <Morbus> two random, but determined, places, rather.
18:57:29 <jcowan> It's built along the transition line that connects the transition points leading to the Xurient.
18:57:42 <jcowan> That's the other thing:
18:57:55 <Morbus> jcowan: so that you'd run into the wall? or climb the wall to stand on top of it?
18:57:56 <sbp> the flinging manoeuvre should be as comical looking as possible
18:57:57 <jcowan> every point is uniquely characterized by its triple (P, Q, R)
18:58:22 <sbp> yeah, so instead of "5th Street and Main", it's Main-Xurient-Loveditch
18:58:24 <jcowan> So if for every Z we draw a curve passing through (P, Q, Z) then that curve is in fact a line.
18:58:27 <Morbus> ignoring the visualizing of a lattice/matrix/waffle, whatever, i'm liking the triple system.
18:58:41 <jcowan> Hence every gate in the PIF leads to the Xurient *and* some other place.
18:59:01 <sbp> the PIF?
18:59:02 <Morbus> jcowan: wanna go write this up?
18:59:12 <sbp> well, the other ones that lead to Xurient might be in the really dense part
18:59:13 <jcowan> sbp: the Pretty Impressive Fence, see Xurient
18:59:22 <sbp> so there's only one effective intersection
18:59:24 <sbp> ah, thanks
18:59:35 <sbp> scratch that then
18:59:37 <jcowan> sbp: they have to form a line on Ghyll.
18:59:47 <sbp> no they don't
18:59:50 <jcowan> So you can pass through any gate in the Fence and reach the Xurient.
18:59:56 <jcowan> sbp: no?
19:00:00 <sbp> not *necessarily*. It's Not A Lattice
19:00:03 <sbp> but they may do
19:00:22 <Morbus> sbp: more ley-linish?
19:00:23 <jcowan> I'd prefer to make them necessarily do so.
19:00:26 <sbp> as I say, it may also be a lattice but only in a particular dimension, and really curved in higher dimensions
19:00:36 <sbp> ley lines are always straight lines
19:00:41 <jcowan> Or at most a conic section.
19:00:49 <jcowan> Not an arbitrary set of points.
19:01:02 <sbp> hmm
19:01:02 <Morbus> yeah, if its an intersection, how could it be curved?
19:01:09 <sbp> okay, but the density thing has to hold
19:01:21 <jcowan> No, the line connecting all Ghyll-Xurient-R intersections.
19:01:21 <sbp> it could be curved in a higher dimension!
19:01:41 <sbp> okay, imagine your lattice
19:01:50 <sbp> now smush it up in your hand
19:01:51 <jcowan> Anything *might* be curved in a higher dimension. Such curves aren't detectable.
19:01:59 <sbp> the topology still works; all the connections are the same
19:02:04 <sbp> but now it's curved like fuck
19:02:15 <Morbus> hey, i understood that!
19:02:16 <Morbus> ;)
19:02:20 <sbp> heh, heh
19:02:35 <crschmidt> Wait, are we squishing the waffle now?
19:02:39 <crschmidt> Or something else entirely?
19:02:53 <sbp> the waffle, the tunnels, and the tic tac toe board
19:03:04 <crschmidt> hm, that might make a mess.
19:03:11 <jcowan> Doesn't matter, I tell you.
19:03:26 <jcowan> As long as you don't tie things in knots, it doesn't matter how curved they are.
19:03:32 <jcowan> The topology, as you say, is the same.
19:03:52 <jcowan> An implication is that Ghyll is effectively circular.
19:04:26 <sbp> and I think this would make the main orth at the outside somewhat
19:04:31 <jcowan> At least if the density of transition points/lines increases uniformly in all directions.
19:04:37 <sbp> though it's difficult to visualize a shape which fits
19:04:46 <sbp> yes, but...
19:04:48 <jcowan> No, I mean the main orth = Ghyll is circular in 2-d shape.
19:04:53 <sbp> those parts might be the inside
19:04:55 <sbp> right
19:05:03 <sbp> as for the higher-dimensional shape, we don't know
19:05:25 <sbp> but yeah, the main orth is definitely 2-d circular
19:05:28 <sbp> as it is now, on the map
19:05:37 <jcowan> Morbus: you see why it's circular?
19:06:47 <Morbus> if ghyll is circular (because things get denser along the edges equally), then does that mean all ortho's in metaghyll are also circular?
19:06:50 <sbp> outside edge == here be dragons! (and intersections!)
19:07:02 <jcowan> Morbus: yes, I think so.
19:07:03 <sbp> yeah, I think so
19:07:09 <Morbus> so, just to reiterate.
19:07:23 <sbp> and also, when you cross at that outer dense edge, you tend to land in the outer dense edge of the ortho you've just crossed into
19:07:34 <Morbus> the reason ghyll is circular , with folktown (whatever) at the center, is because the intersections get denser the further you get from the center, in all directions.
19:07:35 <sbp> so they all have safe places too, but not with the main ortho
19:07:56 <jcowan> Morbus: yes.
19:07:59 <sbp> * sbp nods
19:08:21 <jcowan> Morbus: they get *uniformly* denser
19:08:22 <Morbus> sbp: but that's not /necessarily/ so. a triple could certainly drop you into the center, in which case, you'd still have to go a distance (say, 231 leles, etc.) to get to the outer density.
19:08:32 <Morbus> uniformly?
19:08:40 <sbp> no, that is necessarily so
19:08:50 <Morbus> why is that not necessarily so?
19:08:56 <Morbus> er. why is it necessarily so?
19:08:59 <jcowan> Morbus: the lines 5000 lele from Folktown are just as dense in any direction.
19:09:02 <sbp> because the intersections are *bi-directional*
19:09:05 <Morbus> jcowan: right.
19:09:25 <sbp> so if it's hard to get to SomeOrtho from the main ortho, it's hard to get to the main ortho from SomeOrtho
19:09:36 <jcowan> sbp: I think it's not necessarily so, just very probable. After all, almost all transitions are far from the center.
19:09:43 <sbp> hmm
19:09:51 <Morbus> sbp: but, why wouldn't anyone be making towns right there in the dense parts? if you were always at the edge, and always had to travel to the center of any O to get to civiliazation, there were /definitely/ be attempts to shorten that distance. it'd be absolutely required for commerce, etc.
19:09:54 <sbp> yeah, conceded
19:10:07 <jcowan> So even if you cross from Folktown into the Podunk ortho, you are probably near its edge.
19:10:12 <sbp> no, the edges are totally dangerous
19:10:28 <sbp> because after five turns, you're not going to get back
19:10:43 <Morbus> so, the xurient may be 231 leles away, where 100 leles are spent traveling to the Ghyll edge, and then 131 traveling to the center (or thereabouts) of the Xurient O?
19:10:51 <Morbus> after 5 turns?
19:10:53 <sbp> remember, at each crossing you turn into one of three orthos randomly
19:11:05 <Morbus> right, but you can keep flinging yourself to get to the right one.
19:11:07 <jcowan> And eventually you will have different body parts in different orthos.
19:11:14 <sbp> but the edge is very dense
19:11:22 <sbp> so if you miss the one you're aiming at, you end up in another
19:11:31 <sbp> then when you try to get back, you end up in yet another
19:11:37 <sbp> and so on until you're very, very far away
19:11:42 <Morbus> ah, they're /so/ dense that two feet in the wrong direction would put you in the wrong place?
19:11:47 <sbp> right
19:11:50 <Morbus> ok.
19:11:55 <jcowan> And further out it's much worse.
19:11:58 <Morbus> so, if these ortho's are critical to trade, as with the xurient...
19:11:59 <sbp> and since there's only a one in three chance of choosing the right one to get back...
19:12:13 <Morbus> then have there been attempts to draw lines, borders, walls, etc. that prevent you from doing that?
19:12:21 <jcowan> Fortunately the xurient and ghyll intersect relatively close to the center.
19:12:28 <kpreid> what *is* this conversation about?
19:12:29 <sbp> prevent you from doing what?
19:12:35 <Morbus> prevent you from making a mistake?
19:12:37 <jcowan> crossing over into a fatal ortho
19:12:44 <sbp> kpreid: hyperdimensional topology in Ghyll
19:12:48 <Morbus> like a hobo sign. "don't eat here", only "don't jump here"
19:12:48 <kpreid> is Ghyll acquiring some sort of topological insanity?
19:12:54 <jcowan> The PIF probably has only safe gates into the Xurient.
19:12:54 <kpreid> * kpreid loses
19:13:05 <kpreid> What started this?
19:13:07 <Morbus> jcowan: yeah, exactly.
19:13:08 <sbp> Morbus: well you just know
19:13:12 <sbp> it's like a cliff edge
19:13:32 <sbp> kpreid: I wrote a draft about it some time ago and then deleted it; but it stuck around in everyone's minds, and now it's back
19:13:40 <jcowan> By 100,000 leles out you probably have multiple transition points *inside* your body.
19:13:47 <sbp> hehe. yeah!
19:13:51 <sbp> yikes
19:14:02 <Morbus> heh, heh.
19:14:08 <jcowan> And further out than that, multiple ones inside each atomic nucleus.
19:14:30 <sbp> you can imagine young boys playing chicken and never being seen again
19:14:34 <Morbus> jcowan: so, is the PIF on the boundaries of the Ghyll O? is 231 leles out still in the "center" of the Ghyll O? or is ti 3/4's from the edge, etc.?
19:14:35 <jcowan> Ghyll is a sort of inside-out black hole.
19:14:39 <sbp> jcowan: thing is, you wouldn't get that far
19:14:45 <jcowan> sbp: sure.
19:14:59 <jcowan> Morbus: No, I think it's nowhere near the effective event horizon.
19:15:07 <sbp> still central enough to not make journeying to it perilous
19:15:13 <Morbus> where event horizion is defined as "hahaha. good luck, buddy."
19:15:16 <sbp> yeah
19:15:19 <Morbus> k.
19:15:23 <Morbus> so, the ghyll ortho is pretyt large.
19:15:31 <jcowan> As large as we want to make it.
19:15:31 <Morbus> at least 700 leles wide.
19:15:39 <Morbus> cos peopel travel to mount yurch to scale it.
19:15:44 <Morbus> and the xurient wall is on our side.
19:15:51 <jcowan> "our side"?
19:16:04 <Morbus> er.
19:16:05 <sbp> yeah. us versus the Glortch People
19:16:12 <sbp> with Xurient on our side, we can win!
19:16:22 <Morbus> ignore "our side"/.
19:16:29 <Morbus> "close enough to not be dangerous".
19:16:43 <sbp> central enough, yeah
19:16:44 <jcowan> Actually, the PIF might be in the Xurient.
19:16:51 <jcowan> The Xurient article is ambiguous.
19:16:59 <Morbus> well, i think the PIF would have to be in on our side.
19:17:08 <Morbus> dammit, our Ortho.
19:17:24 <sbp> my sides, they are a-intersecting
19:17:37 <jcowan> Morbus: depends on who built it.
19:17:38 <Morbus> besides the Xurient, then, there's really no current place we've talked about that is on another ortho.
19:17:54 <Morbus> unless you want "deep in the cactus forests" or high above the (new) arandellion moors.
19:17:57 <jcowan> Down Below?
19:18:08 <Morbus> since they're so close to folktown that they'd have to be inside the safe zone.
19:18:11 <Morbus> well, yeah, that too.
19:18:15 <jcowan> er, Down There.
19:18:28 <sbp> that's another thing: we didn't talk about the other Orthos, so I came to think, because of R1 regulations by the Encyclopedants not to concentrate on anything but the main ortho
19:18:29 <jcowan> Of course, Ghyll really has no center.
19:18:36 <Morbus> right.
19:18:42 <Morbus> well, wait.
19:18:44 <Morbus> why?
19:18:46 <jcowan> in the sense that Earth does.
19:18:49 <jcowan> Because it's a disk.
19:18:50 <Morbus> right.
19:18:57 <Morbus> in teh sense that a sphere does.
19:19:00 <Morbus> but not as a circle.
19:19:11 <sbp> it has a center
19:19:11 <Morbus> sphere, no, circle yes.
19:19:19 <sbp> that is to say...
19:19:28 <sbp> MetaGhyll has a center, but it's in hyperdimensional space
19:19:42 <jcowan> sbp: might or might not.
19:19:46 <sbp> Ghyll, the main ortho, also has a center in it's the place with the sparsest intersections
19:19:50 <sbp> (right, right)
19:19:52 <jcowan> sbp: what happens if you go up or down?
19:19:55 <sbp> but that's not a spatial center
19:19:57 <Morbus> ok. so, jcowan, since sbp is sleepy, could you write up something, either in a notepad, or on the WhereIsWhere page,etc?
19:20:19 <jcowan> sbp: it is a spatial center effectively.
19:20:20 <Morbus> hrm. yeah. if a transavian flies high enough, does he travel between O's?
19:20:24 <sbp> yeah
19:20:38 <jcowan> That complicates the bejesus out of things.
19:20:45 <Morbus> what? my Q?
19:20:51 <jcowan> No, sbp's answer.
19:20:58 <sbp> for our intents and purposes, transavians can't fly
19:21:05 <sbp> my answer was to <jcowan> sbp: it is a spatial center effectively.
19:21:07 <Morbus> eh?
19:21:15 <jcowan> Oh.
19:21:19 <sbp> can't fly: makes it easier, but just kidding
19:21:34 <sbp> well:
19:21:42 <sbp> "Though Rancticirchiretic has been unable to explain why Pinky and Perky look exactly the same from every orthagonality, he has been able to provide the best approximation of the number of orthagonalities..."
19:21:51 <jcowan> I think that we ignore what happens when moving in the vertical directions.
19:21:57 <sbp> which would suggest that there are no orthagonalities in the air
19:22:07 <Morbus> hmm. ok. i can buy that.
19:22:10 <Morbus> i have to do some work now.
19:22:18 <Morbus> someone write this up.
19:22:19 <Morbus> ;)
19:22:27 <sbp> I nominate jcowan!
19:22:34 <jcowan> In process already!
19:22:38 <Morbus> awesome!
19:22:43 <phenny> Seconded, but only because sbp is making me.
19:22:51 <sbp> all vote. aye!
19:22:58 <sbp> oh, in process. okay. excellent
19:23:19 <sbp> phenny's useful for vote cheating
19:23:27 <Ash> hi
19:23:31 <sbp> hey Ash
19:23:33 <Ash> i vote for belugas
19:23:39 <sbp> not allowed
19:23:41 <Ash> A VOTE FOR BELUGAS IS A VOTE FOR *FREEDOM*
19:23:45 <sbp> only in the state of Arkansas
19:23:54 <Ash> Ash has changed the topic to: FREE AS IN CRAP
19:24:18 <Ash> yawn
19:24:26 <sbp> yeah, I'm thinking the same thing
19:24:28 <sbp> totally tired
19:24:33 <Morbus> hmm?
19:24:35 <Anical> hmm is SIR I ASKED YOU HOW GAY YOU ARE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING YOU AS AN APPLICANT GAYNESS: STILL ON THE TABLE SIR THE QUEER ISSUE WAITING HERE FOR YOUR FEEDBACK WHAT A GREAT DAY TO GET HEAD FROM ME NO NEED FOR COMPLICATED PAPERWORK JUST KEEP ME IN THE LOOP;
19:24:39 <Morbus> * Morbus chuckles.
19:25:26 <sbp> hmm
19:25:31 <sbp> you should be working
19:25:43 <sbp> I'm off too. 'night all!
19:26:51 <Ash> I am working
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19:28:43 <Monty> But what does julie have to do with the price of fish?
19:28:45 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
19:28:51 <Monty> Isn't there so maybe "create text editor using the model: that backtracking from it all, make-type. You can't visual in spots
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19:32:11 <jcowan> Belugas are not allowed. Neither is Spot. Nor Xibo.
19:33:12 <Morbus> Morbus has quit (Remote closed the connection)
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19:36:42 <deltab> that was an interesting discussion; pity that I was desynched
19:37:21 <deltab> it reminded me of all sorts of stories of unusual geometries
19:38:40 <deltab> including a short story that I went looking for in half a dozen anthologies; then I put the last few words into Google, and the first result was it being quoted by jcowan!
19:39:06 <jcowan> I suppose you mean Clarke's "The Wall"
19:39:11 <deltab> yep
19:42:55 <deltab> especially also the Mode series
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19:56:13 <deltab> which has a Virtual Mode (named after the x86 mode!) cross-cutting many Modes ('parallel' worlds, with widely-varying forms of life and even physical laws), anchored at five points (in the way that three points anchor a plane), and allowing adventurers to journey acros the Modes by walking through the invisible boundaries (which are parallel vertical planes about 10 metres apart)
19:56:36 <deltab> apologies for the poor construction of that sentence
19:59:58 <deltab> Inverted World
20:00:47 <deltab> a couple of obscure TV series: Finders Keepers and Spellbinders
20:00:59 <deltab> the Bermuda Triangle
20:02:41 <AaronSw> AaronSw (~Snak@gork.Stanford.EDU) has joined #swhack
20:02:53 <AaronSw> Does anyoen have swhack chatlogs from when I was doing the Hoover/pmdocs research
20:03:52 <deltab> ooh, there was a sequel to Spellbinder
20:05:20 <deltab> aw, I only saw the first 13 episodes, it seems
20:05:20 <crschmidt> AaronSw: http://crschmidt.net/tmp/aaron.log
20:05:43 <AaronSw> 404
20:05:44 <deltab> anyway, dinnertime
20:05:51 <crschmidt> er
20:05:56 <crschmidt> http://zeus.crschmidt.net/tmp/aaron.log
20:06:21 <AaronSw> thanks!
20:06:26 <crschmidt> np
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20:30:51 <jcowan> Morbus, I've written the article: User:Jcowan/Orthogonalities.
20:30:57 <jcowan> sbp: please review for sbippity
20:31:04 <jcowan> Morbus: please review for clarity and playability
20:31:19 <jcowan> Everyone else: please review for amphigory and philosophunculism
20:31:54 <jcowan> (less is better, in this last case)
20:32:29 <AaronSw> * AaronSw reviews the definition of those words
20:33:01 <Morbus> jcowan: "t is believed, but not proved, that there is an intersection line between every pair of orthogonalities."
20:33:13 <Morbus> ie. "every orth intersects with every other orth"?
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20:35:32 <jcowan> Yes.
20:36:14 <jcowan> Adopting your wording.
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20:36:34 <jcowan> A mild attack of mathematosis.
20:37:31 <Morbus> * Morbus thinks.
20:37:34 <Morbus> well, it sounds good to me.
20:37:42 <Morbus> but i'm not sure if its because of the collected discussion from earlier.
20:37:43 <Morbus> question.
20:38:02 <Morbus> assuming that I want to visualize in a gif, for the sake of visualizing in a gif, would an asterisk be suitable?
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20:38:20 <Morbus> * such that - is ghyll, / and \ are two other orthos, and the center is the turning point?
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20:38:36 <nsh> * nsh ponders
20:38:49 <jcowan> I guess.
20:38:59 <Morbus> you guess? why?
20:39:01 <jcowan> But a 3D visualization of three planes intersecting at a point is better.
20:39:07 <Morbus> oh, right, right.
20:39:08 <Morbus> yeah, i know.
20:39:11 <Morbus> i meant 3d.
20:39:21 <Morbus> it'd be a 3-d asterisk, sorta.
20:39:29 <Morbus> i was just using asterisk as an easily pritable example in rc.
20:39:34 <Morbus> +i
20:41:37 <jcowan> See http://ileocecal.vec.wfubmc.edu/software/FreeFlight_help/planes.gif , and ignore the human being.
20:41:48 <Morbus> heh
20:41:51 <Morbus> i was doing the same thing.
20:41:57 <Morbus> image search for "plane intersection"
20:42:03 <jetscreamer> jetscreamer (~jetscream@adsl-64-219-216-41.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) has joined #swhack
20:42:12 <Morbus> yeah, thats what i was thinking. only with another plane, of course.
20:42:19 <Morbus> oh, wait, there is one.
20:42:25 <Morbus> yeah, that's exactly what i was thinking then
20:42:48 <nsh> oh
20:42:50 <nsh> :-)
20:43:17 <nsh> we're all flat again, eh
20:43:23 <Morbus> hmm?
20:43:24 <Anical> hmm is THE QUESTION IS NOT WHETHER IT'S ART OR PORNOGRAPHY PEOPLE, THE QUESTION IS HOW FAR IS THAT BAT UP THE GUY'S ASS.;
20:43:54 <nsh> Morbus, simplification blindness. I'm informed
20:44:31 <Morbus> i should be able to do this on the OS X graphing calculator, if i had a clue.
20:44:42 <Morbus> actually, i don't even know if that app is still on os x.
20:45:27 <Morbus> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.math.ucla.edu/~ronmiech/Calculus_Problems/32A/chap12/section8/826d13/826_133.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.math.ucla.edu/~ronmiech/Calculus_Problems/32A/chap12/section8/826d13/826_13.html&h=291&w=394&sz=4&tbnid=JyxTP5b6bFMJ:&tbnh=88&tbnw=119&hl=en&start=149&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dplane%2Bintersection%26start%3D140%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26c2coff%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN
20:45:32 <Morbus> dammit.
20:45:35 <Morbus> http://www.math.ucla.edu/~ronmiech/Calculus_Problems/32A/chap12/section8/826d13/826_133.gif
20:45:45 <Morbus> jcowan: if there was another plane on there, that'd be a good example of a cone line.
20:45:50 <Morbus> or a circular line, rather.
20:46:44 <jcowan> What do you make of the interior yellow region there?
20:46:49 <valmont_> valmont_ is now known as valmont
20:47:18 <nsh> perspective dependent?
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20:47:41 <Morbus> ah. yeah, i saw that as part of the yellow diag plane.
20:48:34 <Morbus> heh: http://sylvester.math.nthu.edu.tw/d2/gc-04/projections/
20:49:37 <nsh> tired :-)
20:50:22 <nsh> and sorry
20:50:36 <Morbus> http://www.arizona-software.ch/classic/curvuspro/images/tour/torus.gif
20:50:44 <Morbus> i wish that diagonal 1pt line was bigger
20:52:14 <Morbus> jcowan: http://www.cis.edu.hk/sec/math/ib/higher/vectorGeometry/images/planes1.jpg
20:52:32 <Morbus> that should work, right?
20:52:37 <Morbus> there's only one turning point for all three.
20:52:46 <jcowan> Excellent.
20:52:52 <Morbus> if ghyll is red, xur... etc.
20:53:34 <Morbus> i'd just add a some text - ghyll on red, xurient on blue, somethign else on blue, and then a dot right at the center of the rgb intersection labeled "turning point"
20:53:42 <Morbus> "something else on [green]"
20:53:57 <Morbus> get rid of the numbers on the side.
20:54:34 <Morbus> now, if i can find one that uses a cone, to demonstrate non-straight intersections, that'd be great too. but probably far more difficult
20:55:03 <jcowan> We don't really know if the PIF is straight.
20:55:16 <Morbus> yeah.
20:55:25 <Morbus> which is why i wanted to demonstrated a curved intersection.
20:55:39 <Morbus> cos if the PIF is like the wall of china, then...
20:56:15 <jcowan> The WoC is definitely not straight.
20:56:22 <Morbus> that's what i mean.
20:56:33 <Morbus> if the PIF is like the wall of china, then the intersection is snaky.
20:56:45 <Morbus> not perfectly straight as per the image above.
20:57:11 <bancus> any irish here?
20:57:19 <Morbus> jcowan: right?
20:59:11 <jcowan> Gaah. The PIF is only one lele = 1.7 miles long. Bogus.
20:59:19 <Morbus> whaaa.
20:59:24 <Morbus> i didn't notice that.
20:59:27 <Morbus> bugger.
20:59:31 <jcowan> Me either.
20:59:40 <Morbus> well, that should still be fine, though, right?
20:59:46 <Morbus> the intersection could just be small.
21:00:05 <jcowan> It shitcans the theory that the PIF runs along a substantial part of the intersection line.
21:00:37 <Morbus> well, we can revise it.
21:00:40 <Morbus> no big deal.
21:00:44 <Morbus> add a 100.
21:01:21 <nsh> nsh has quit ()
21:01:35 <Morbus> http://www.josechu.com/planes_in_3d/pl8_gif_p.gif
21:01:51 <Morbus> still all straight thought.
21:03:21 <Morbus> yeah, i'd just add 100 to the xurient entry. ortho is more important to the entire game/world than the length of a wall.
21:05:33 <jcowan> Fixed.
21:05:47 <jcowan> I didn't realize the thing was 1000 ft high.
21:06:01 <Morbus> that's pretty high.
21:08:04 <Morbus> hrmmm.
21:08:05 <jcowan> The GWoC is mostly only about 25 feet high.
21:08:05 <Morbus> http://www.reunion.iufm.fr/recherche/irem/TermS/Dpgraph.htm
21:08:16 <jcowan> I don't think you can build stuff 1000 feet high out of wood.
21:08:17 <Morbus> nothing on there we can use though,.
21:08:25 <Morbus> change it to 100.
21:08:36 <BigJibby> BigJibby (~matt@1Cust21.tnt4.dial.mtl1.uunet.ca) has joined #swhack
21:08:58 <Morbus> hey, when people write stuff on yur User talk page, did you get a "you have a ne wmmessage"?
21:15:05 <jcowan> I didn't.
21:15:19 <Morbus> hrm.
21:15:21 <jcowan> * jcowan has linked all Chesix measures to the Chesix page.
21:15:25 <Morbus> somehow, Nikos of Ant sent me a message.
21:15:32 <Morbus> which showed up on my user talk page.
21:15:34 <jcowan> Maybe it's the new release.
21:15:44 <Morbus> but, when i went back to the site, there was a banner on the first page i went to saying "you have a new message"
21:16:13 <jcowan> There.
21:16:17 <jcowan> See if you have another one now.
21:17:34 <Morbus> http://www.reunion.iufm.fr/recherche/irem/TermS/imagesSp%E9/Dpgrap5.jpg
21:17:44 <Morbus> if we add another rect there, that intersected at only one point, would that work?
21:17:54 <Morbus> i'm having an artist draw me something just like that, only with another rect.
21:18:10 <Morbus> no, it was on my User_talk page, not on my regular User page.
21:19:31 <jcowan> And now?
21:19:41 <Morbus> yes!
21:19:47 <Morbus> huh. neato.
21:20:09 <jcowan> Try editing my usertalk page.
21:20:52 <Morbus> done.
21:21:13 <jcowan> Snarferific!
21:21:16 <Morbus> neat feature.
21:21:28 <jcowan> Yes. We can use this to communicate reliably with other scholars.
21:21:38 <Morbus> speaking of which, you had a rules violation.
21:21:42 <Morbus> which got lost in myzillion of edits.
21:22:43 <jcowan> Oops.
21:22:46 <jcowan> Is it still there?
21:22:51 <Morbus> yeah.
21:22:56 <Morbus> you cited yoru own phantom again
21:23:23 <jcowan> Arrgh.
21:23:47 <jcowan> And I really need him, too.
21:24:05 <jcowan> Citing Quezloos would technically work, but would save the letter at the expense of the spirit.
21:25:11 <Morbus> jcowan: should we add some mention of XYZ coords in your Ortho discussion?
21:25:41 <jcowan> Good idea.
21:26:49 <Morbus> jcowan: back to http://www.reunion.iufm.fr/recherche/irem/TermS/imagesSp%E9/Dpgrap5.jpg
21:27:00 <Morbus> a vertical rectangle through the right side of the cone, down through the horizontal rectangle, should work, right?
21:27:12 <Morbus> as an example of a curved intersection (on the horizontal plane)
21:27:58 <Morbus> my artist: http://acko.net/dumpx/foo.png
21:28:44 <Morbus> though, he has two itnersections.
21:28:47 <Morbus> getting him to correct.
21:33:18 <Morbus> jcowan: http://acko.net/dumpx/foo.png
21:33:20 <Morbus> seems right.
21:33:44 <jcowan> Indeed.
21:34:01 <Morbus> i'm gonna have him make a second picture, with a /fourth/ plane.
21:34:10 <Morbus> that intersects the other edge of the cone.
21:34:19 <Morbus> to show an XYZ and a WYZ together.
21:34:23 <jcowan> Note that the blue O isn't really a hyperboloid; that's just its three-d projection. To its inhabitants it looks flat.
21:35:31 <Morbus> i don't know what you just said.
21:35:53 <jcowan> In latest picture, the blue orthogonality looks curved.
21:35:59 <jcowan> But that's just a distortion of the model.
21:36:12 <jcowan> Like it's a distortion of the model when drawing a cube that the sides don't look square.
21:36:49 <Morbus> jcowan: message UnConeD
21:36:52 <Morbus> tell him what you just said
21:37:01 <Morbus> I asked him for a fourth one, different color, not touching the red one.
21:37:02 <jcowan> I don't want the picture changed.
21:37:07 <Morbus> and he starting talking all gypsy to me.
21:37:08 <jcowan> Just recognize its limitations.
21:37:40 <jcowan> If every O intersects every other, you can't draw a picture of more than three.
21:38:00 <Morbus> hrm. that's true.
21:38:45 <jcowan> Don't worry.
21:39:33 <Morbus> i told him not to add it
21:40:39 <Morbus> but, this is fine in your estimation?
21:41:01 <Morbus> and the blue circle on the brownish shows an example of a curved intersection?
21:41:55 <Morbus> jcowan: you couldn't add another phantom somewhere else?
21:42:28 <Morbus> jcowan: http://acko.net/dumpx/foo2.png
21:42:30 <Morbus> he did it anyways.
21:43:42 <Morbus> apparently, he's got shadows on this one.
21:43:51 <Morbus> so it looks like there's more planes then there are.
21:44:28 <Morbus> jcowan: with this one, should we even use it, with a note that "this is an example of the triple coord system, but not that this is a 3-d visualization of a 4-d concept and thus, is inaccurate, etc.)
21:44:36 <jcowan> Yes.
21:44:48 <Morbus> ok. i'm getting him to make one without shadow.s
21:44:49 <jcowan> I changed Oblibestircus to Ibaan Malmiz.
21:45:06 <Morbus> yeah, i noticed. you did so reluctantly. you couldn't keep Ob, but add another phantom somewhere?
21:45:19 <Morbus> and was that Yes to the phantom thing or to the fourth plane thing?
21:45:28 <jcowan> Yes to the fourth plane thing.
21:45:31 <Morbus> k
21:45:42 <jcowan> Not without significantly adding to the entry.
21:45:46 <Morbus> no shaodws: http://acko.net/dumpx/foo2.png
21:45:51 <Morbus> i think this is good.
21:46:03 <jcowan> Yes.
21:46:47 <Morbus> [[[
21:46:48 <Morbus> <UnConeD> maybe i should rotate the camera a bit to the right
21:46:48 <Morbus> <Morbus> even if you had no clue why <g>
21:46:48 <Morbus> <UnConeD> so the green plane's intersection line is more visible
21:46:48 <Morbus> ]]]
21:47:32 <Morbus> actually...
21:47:43 <Morbus> hrm. if that green plane intersected the red plane right in the center there, that'd work too, right?
21:47:48 <Morbus> cos its only intersecting the horizontal one.
21:48:59 <Morbus> http://acko.net/dumpx/foo2.png
21:49:03 <Morbus> tilted toward the green
21:49:36 <Morbus> if the green and red intersected without touching the blue cone, then that'd be another triple.
21:49:37 <JibberJim> .cp 169
21:49:40 <phenny> 0168: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH TILDE (Ũ)
21:49:43 <phenny> 0169: LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH TILDE (ũ)
21:49:43 <Morbus> since they'd intersect at the horizontal plane too.
21:49:46 <phenny> 1169: HANGUL JUNGSEONG O (ᅩ) [...]
21:49:55 <ows> ows (~666@bl5-42-172.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #swhack
21:51:24 <jcowan> sbp was very impressed by your .sig BTW
21:51:37 <Morbus> whose?
21:52:38 <jcowan> Yours.
21:53:10 <chimezie> chimezie (~chimezie@adsl-68-76-121-176.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net) has joined #swhack
21:53:31 <deltab> why?
21:54:16 <jcowan> The quote from the Jargon File was something he mentioned particularly.
21:55:20 <deltab> what shape are the "lines" in 3 dimensions?
21:55:42 <Anical> Couldn't get a value for FROM
21:55:54 <deltab> in Time's Arrow (iirc) there were circular (yet still described as lines)
21:56:04 <deltab> they were
21:56:57 <deltab> er, not Time's Arrow
21:57:05 <mediovia> mediovia (~root@host217-42-198-6.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #swhack
21:57:20 <deltab> some other sci-fi novel by non-sci-fi author
21:57:24 <jcowan> deltab: any conic section (line, circle, ellipse, parabola, hyperbola) or part thereof.
21:57:34 <Morbus> back in 10.
21:57:40 <jcowan> Bailing out.
21:57:42 <jcowan> Ittywhonk!
21:57:46 <jcowan> jcowan has quit ("Bailing out")
21:57:49 <Morbus> Morbus has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:08:07 <AaronSw> OK, I'm sorry but this is sort of funny:
22:08:09 <AaronSw> --
22:08:11 <AaronSw> Dear Aaron,
22:08:13 <AaronSw> This is not a test.
22:08:14 <AaronSw> ...
22:08:44 <AaronSw> It won't matter if you're at the gym, buying groceries, or in your car when you get the news -- we'll need your help within hours, if not minutes ... So today we're asking you to do one simple thing to be prepared: print your own personalized (and wallet-sized!) "Emergency Instructions for a Supreme Court Retirement" card.
22:08:45 <AaronSw> --
22:09:00 <AaronSw> "This card will tell you exactly what you need to do when there's a retirement. The phone numbers you need to call, what you need to say, and next steps you need to take -- it's all there."
22:10:09 <Morbus> Morbus (~morbus@pool-64-222-149-37.man.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
22:10:10 <Monty> bah, it's Morbus again
22:13:57 <Morbus> http://acko.net/dumpx/foo3.png
22:16:14 <edsu> edsu has quit ("leaving")
22:16:34 <deltab> interdimensional revolving door :-)
22:17:31 <Morbus> :)
22:17:41 <Morbus> that one demonstrates four turning points, i believe.
22:17:53 <Morbus> even though its constrained to 3D.
22:18:05 <Morbus> well, cos its constrained to 3d, this image isn't accurate.
22:18:13 <Morbus> but, does demonstrate ably... yadday
22:22:07 <jetscreamer> jetscreamer (~jetscream@adsl-64-219-216-41.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) has joined #swhack
22:22:07 <Monty> howdy, jetscreamer
22:22:54 <deltab> "MetaGhyll"?
22:22:59 <Morbus> yeah.
22:23:03 <deltab> would it even have a name?
22:23:05 <Morbus> the collection of all orthogonalities.
22:23:17 <Morbus> well, for the sake of conversation, a shortcut was needed.
22:23:36 <Morbus> does the Id really need a name?
22:23:40 <deltab> understood, but should it be in the article text?
22:24:06 <Morbus> hrm. probably not.
22:24:17 <Morbus> I've gotta revise it a bit to make further sense of what "Ghyll proper" is.
22:24:50 <Morbus> Morbus has quit ("http://disobey.com/")
22:24:57 <Morbus> Morbus (~morbus@pool-64-222-149-37.man.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
22:25:08 <Morbus> grr
22:25:12 <deltab> * deltab is reminded of an alien race that uses the same name for their planet and the rest of the universe
22:27:10 <jetscreamer> that sounds familiar, a book?
22:27:56 <deltab> aha, Worlds Apart, by Richard Cowper
22:28:35 <Morbus> * Morbus goes back to editing the tons of A entries.
22:30:28 <bear_afk> bear_afk is now known as bear
22:30:59 <JibberJim> hmm, I thought worlds apart was about snow covered world, and no children?
22:31:41 <deltab> "The entire galaxy is also known as Chnas for the very simple reason that the Chanssians, having observed it, realize that in all probability it has only subjective validity. Hence they choose to regard it as an extension of Chnas itself. The same culd be said for the rest of their observable cosmos. It is all Chnas. Come to think of it, to a Chnassian, our own glaxy too is Chnas. Both of it. The concept has a certain breat
22:31:41 <deltab> htaking simplicity that is not unattractive."
22:32:21 <JibberJim> ah no, that's twilight of briareus by the same bloke in the same year apparently..
22:33:41 <deltab> ah, yes, I have that too
22:33:41 <nsh> nsh (nsh@nsh.wikipedia) has joined #swhack
22:33:41 <deltab> bought at the same time along with Clone and Time out of Mind
22:34:38 <JibberJim> I think that might be the only cowper I've read, which is why I was confused...
22:34:46 <JibberJim> I don't have him on my shelf anyway
22:40:58 <kpreid> [[[
22:41:08 <kpreid> > ... what does one DO with liquified running shoes?
22:41:13 <kpreid> Why, you run downhill.
22:41:15 <kpreid> ]]]
22:42:18 <jetscreamer> boo
22:43:32 <chimezie> python question: is there a way to create a fileobject wrapped around a string buffer? stringIO has no 'name' attribute (available on a 'file' object)
22:43:57 <AaronSw> AaronSw has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:44:29 <deltab> chimezie: so give it one
22:44:52 <BigJibby> BigJibby has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:46:28 <chimezie> can't set an attribute on cStringIO.StringIO object
22:47:08 <chimezie> trying to write to a tarfile from string buffers (not files on the filesystem - which seems to be how tarfile primarly works)
22:47:19 <deltab> not cStringIO, no
22:47:26 <kpreid> might see if there's a Newer, Fancier string file module
22:47:37 <deltab> no
22:48:10 <dMost__> dMost__ has quit ("bye")
22:48:16 <dMost__> dMost__ (~damien@cpe-66-108-8-253.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
22:48:41 <deltab> JibberJim: 'Worlds Apart' is much sillier. It's about schoolteacher George Cringe who escapes from the tedium of his life by writing about a rather unlikely world called Chnas, unaware that on Chnas someone is writing about him and other Urthlings
22:48:59 <chimezie> bleh
22:49:52 <chimezie> guess ill have to use zipfile instead (not sure if the compression is inferior)
22:50:18 <deltab> chimezie: you can use StringIO instead
22:52:34 <bear> bear is now known as bear_dinner
22:54:08 <bancus> @acronym rsn
22:54:25 <supybot> bancus: rsn could be Raytheon Services, Nevada (Las Vegas, Nevada), or Real Soon Now, or Reason, or Red Sox Nation, or Reference Serial Number, or Reference Symbol Number, or Regional Service Node, or Republic of Singapore Navy, or Residential Service Network, or Retrofit Service Notice (aviation), or Robust Security Network (802.11i standard), or role specialist nation (US DoD), or Role (1 more message)
22:54:36 <bancus> @more
22:54:37 <supybot> bancus: Specialization Nation (NATO), or Rotary Separation Nut, or Royal Swazi National Airways Corp, Swaziland (ICAO code), or R-Smart Network
22:54:41 <crschmidt> real soon now
22:54:47 <bancus> it's a file extension
22:55:10 <bancus> <andy> huh. Looks like RSN is an extension that stupid people use when they really mean RAR.
22:55:12 <bancus> heh
22:55:26 <chimezie> AttributeError: StringIO instance has no attribute 'fileno'
22:55:36 <chimezie> doesn't look like StringIO can masquerade as a file object
22:55:42 <chimezie> i always assumed it could
22:56:40 <deltab> it can in some ways, not in others
22:57:51 <bear_dinner> bear_dinner is now known as bear
23:02:15 <deltab> While cooking 'Coddykins Coated in Scrumptious Crispy Golden Crumbs', George ponders how they came to exist, being completely cubic and not resembling anything natural.
23:03:16 <deltab> He comes to the conclusion that they evolved that way due to square-holed nets, forcing the fishermen to switch to nets with round holes
23:03:42 <nsh> nsh has quit ()
23:05:16 <mediovia> platypus.mozdev.org is great fun!
23:05:32 <mediovia> I just massacred ft.com with it
23:08:59 <mediovia> * mediovia still sulks from being held for twelve hours in a cell in Bethnal Green on Friday for a public order offence
23:09:21 <mediovia> * mediovia wonders off grumbling
23:09:44 <jetscreamer> what's a public order offence
23:10:29 <jetscreamer> ah nm
23:10:44 <jetscreamer> which might be more appropriate
23:17:47 <mediovia> jetscreamer: to be honest I'm not quite sure what's going on
23:18:15 <mediovia> I've looked up section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986
23:18:30 <mediovia> but this application of it seems to be something new
23:18:47 <mediovia> something dreamt up by our Home Secretary I'd think
23:19:04 <JibberJim> what happened?
23:19:12 <mediovia> I have a penalty notice here, the payment of which involves no admission of guilt
23:19:32 <JibberJim> Section 5 PO act is just "behaviour liable to cause alarm and distress" or so isn't it?
23:19:40 <mediovia> Correct
23:20:21 <mediovia> On the penalty notice is says "Did use abusive language in the presence..."
23:20:43 <mediovia> 'course I was on my own
23:20:52 <jetscreamer> omg displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
23:21:02 <jetscreamer> intarweb
23:21:09 <mediovia> yeah, that
23:21:41 <JibberJim> mediovia, yeah the 86 act changed the law such that there didn't need to be someone present to actually be alarmed or distressed...
23:22:12 <mediovia> I was about 30-40 feet away from anyone
23:27:01 <redmonk> redmonk has quit ()
23:27:01 <JibberJim> depressing :-(
23:27:55 <MoiraA> MoiraA is now known as MoiraA|bed
23:27:59 <mediovia> yeah, and annoying
23:28:23 <JibberJim> well not really annoying for me :-)
23:28:33 <JibberJim> just depressing...
23:28:33 <mediovia> the only thing I've learnt is to advise people not to be out on their own
23:28:36 <mediovia> no :-)
23:28:40 <mediovia> yes
23:28:57 <JibberJim> was it a prope policeman of a CSO?
23:29:00 <mediovia> Without another witness, you're pretty well scewed
23:29:04 <JibberJim> s/prope/proper/
23:29:07 <mediovia> s/scewed/screwed
23:29:31 <mediovia> Motorcyclist, dunno
23:30:03 <JibberJim> proper policeman, CSO's don't get to go on bikes
23:30:43 <mediovia> there was the "then he assaulted my bike" euphemism while I was at the station, something I'm not quite au fait with
23:31:29 <uche> <deltab> chimezie: you can use StringIO instead
23:31:31 <uche> bad idea
23:31:37 <uche> *very* *very* slow
23:31:46 <uche> I think the best solution is a wrapper
23:32:36 <uche> But it's harder to address this prob than one would at first assume
23:42:06 <libby> * libby waves at uche
23:42:14 <libby> when to you get to AMS uche?
23:42:31 <uche> in about 20 minutes :-)
23:42:36 <uche> Well, leave
23:42:44 <uche> I arrive Tuesday afternoon
23:45:03 <libby> heh, have a good flight!
23:45:47 <JibberJim> awww, is everyone going to xtech :-(
23:45:59 <JibberJim> * JibberJim wants to go to AMS meet all the shwackers!
23:46:18 <libby> come to ams jim...
23:46:19 <kandinski> Jim, I am going toO!
23:46:23 <kandinski> meet you in AMS!!!!
23:47:15 <JibberJim> no time :-( too expensive :-(
23:47:17 <BigJibby> BigJibby (~matt@1Cust209.tnt4.dial.mtl1.uunet.ca) has joined #swhack
23:48:00 <libby> bummer :(
23:48:11 <libby> hey kandinski! cool
23:48:24 <bancus> bancus has quit ("Ex-Chat")
23:48:59 <kandinski> no, I was kidding, sorry
23:49:14 <kandinski> I cant go either: I have *other plans*
23:49:15 <libby> gah
23:49:17 <Ash> STOP KIDDING
23:49:19 <Ash> JERK
23:49:23 <libby> oo-ooh
23:50:02 <libby> what are your *other plans* ?
23:50:31 <JibberJim> hmm, is that some advice to Michael Jackson, Ash? He should star in a remake of The Jerk?
23:52:25 <bancus> bancus (treed@70-32-97-160.ontrca.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
23:52:25 <Monty> hi bancus
23:54:57 <uche> * uche -> airport
23:55:08 <uche> uche has quit ("Client exiting")
