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01:34:55 <Morbus> any ghyll players around?
01:38:18 <deusx> I keep meaning to get back into ghyll :(
01:38:38 <crschmidt> hey, deusx! I owe you a congratulations or something, right?
01:38:39 <Morbus> hey, you're close enough. need your opinion.
01:38:48 <Morbus> oh, and chris is here.
01:38:52 <Morbus> he's close enough too
01:38:56 <crschmidt> Yeah, but I don't play
01:39:02 <crschmidt> I suck at it
01:39:05 <jeanniecool> * jeanniecool wants to play w/ Schmidty
01:39:07 <Morbus> so, this is the original ghyll map: http://gamegrene.com/wiki/Image:Ghyll_Map_03.png
01:39:08 <jeanniecool> LES!
01:39:18 <deusx> crschmidt: Yes, I'm getting hitched! hehe
01:39:21 <Morbus> and this is one i'm working on, full hex'd: http://feast-or-fa.mine.nu:8888/~morbus/ghyll_map.png
01:39:29 <deusx> Ooh, askii art
01:39:35 <jeanniecool> * jeanniecool does the Happy Dance Of Betrothal for Les
01:39:43 <Morbus> question: of the new one, you can see at the top, water/coast/grass transitions.
01:39:50 <edsu> edsu (~esummers@c-67-173-107-187.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
01:39:51 <Monty> bah, it's edsu again
01:39:51 <Morbus> the middle and bottoms, there are no transitions.
01:39:54 <Morbus> which do you prefer? the nessie humps of the transitions?
01:39:58 <jsled> top
01:40:00 <Morbus> or the raw awesomeness of hexes?
01:40:06 <Morbus> even with the nessie humps?
01:40:08 <jsled> HEX000R!
01:40:10 <Morbus> that's what is bugging me.
01:40:20 <deusx> I likes me hexes
01:40:35 <jeanniecool> Do they all live in Texas, Les?
01:40:39 <crschmidt> brb, children
01:40:40 <deusx> mayhaps
01:40:52 <jeanniecool> * jeanniecool snogs Joshled, too
01:40:54 <Morbus> deusx: so, you'd want only hexes, and no transitions?
01:41:23 <jeanniecool> Is Schmidty's "children" as in he's addressing us, or as in that's the reason he has to go away?
01:41:35 <deusx> Yeah. And maybe come up with an excuse that makes hexes a natural way to make a map for Ghyllians
01:41:49 <Morbus> deusx: heh, heh.
01:41:56 <crschmidt> That I had to go away
01:42:03 <crschmidt> And take care of the child calling my name
01:43:09 <crschmidt> Morbus: the top
01:43:24 <Morbus> alright, so that's two for nessie humps, one for raw hexes, and one undecided.
01:43:27 <Morbus> thanks.
01:53:45 <jcowan> jcowan (~jcowan@167.206.188.3) has joined #swhack
01:54:07 <jcowan> jcowan has changed the topic to: THAT'S THE MOST THAT TWO MEN CAN POSSIBLY CUDDLE! -- In my experience, that's quite a lot! :-)
01:54:52 <crschmidt> Is anything other than Folktown not dibbed?
01:55:38 <Morbus> yep.
01:55:42 <Morbus> see Ghyll Phantom Index.
01:55:55 <Morbus> jcowan!
01:55:58 <jcowan> Forbidden Tom, Folktown Council Hall, Folktown Museum.
01:56:01 <phenny> jcowan: 21 Jun 19:18Z <Morbus> tell jcowan I am not crazy.
01:56:04 <phenny> jcowan: 21 Jun 19:18Z <Morbus> tell jcowan merely obsessed ;)
01:56:08 <phenny> jcowan: 21 Jun 23:37Z <Morbus> tell jcowan that his citations for Exingians are wrong - he has two existing and one phantom.
01:56:15 <jcowan> Okay. Then Dend *not* Dend!
01:56:23 <jcowan> Or rather, then Down There *is* an ortho.
01:56:43 <Morbus> right :)
01:56:54 <Morbus> one that is suitably unknown to prevent people from mucking with it ;)
01:57:19 <jcowan> Good.
01:57:31 <Morbus> suitably unknown and protected by a crazy godking.
01:57:33 <Morbus> ;)
01:57:35 <jcowan> * jcowan loves sadistic and tyrannical restrictions on the players.
01:57:43 <Morbus> yeah?
01:57:48 <Morbus> that sounds sarcastic.
01:57:57 <jcowan> Half sarcastic.
01:58:15 <Morbus> honestly, that wasn't my original intent at all.
01:58:17 <Morbus> just turned out that way.
01:58:39 <Morbus> i just feel that delving into another ortho is equivalent to starting a new, equivalently-sized, Lexicon.
01:58:59 <Morbus> see the latest map/q I sent you?
01:59:03 <jcowan> Not yet.
01:59:10 <jcowan> Got it, haven't looked at it.
01:59:15 <Morbus> no worries.
01:59:18 <Morbus> i'm done for the night anyways.
01:59:23 <Morbus> just id3 tagging now.
01:59:56 <jcowan> "id3 tagging"?
02:00:26 <Morbus> id3ing? tagging mp3s?
02:01:31 <jcowan> Oh.
02:01:36 <jcowan> * jcowan doesn't really belong to mp3 culture.
02:02:31 <Morbus> * Morbus goes overboard, as usual: http://disobey.com/d/lists/albums
02:04:59 <jcowan> Map looks good, Morbus.
02:05:42 <Morbus> which do you prefer? nessie humps or harsh hexes?
02:05:58 <jcowan> * jcowan is indifferent.
02:10:25 <Morbus> welp, sbp will either nessie it, or tie it.
02:11:13 <jcowan> I care about maps only insofar as they promote consistency, to which purpose appearance matters not at all, only relations and proportions.
02:11:21 <Morbus> right.
02:11:37 <Morbus> i tend to agree.
02:11:45 <jcowan> Not that I don't like to see a bit of eye candy from time to time, but expecting me to make aesthetic judgments on it is too much for me.
02:16:17 <deusx> Wheee, I have made an unholy union between an infobot and AIM
02:16:30 <thelsdj> scary
02:16:45 <thelsdj> might be even better if it was jabber
02:16:50 <deusx> decafbot on AIM is running from infobot.org
02:16:55 <deusx> It could be jabber, too
02:17:32 <Morbus> the bot that runs anical has a new jabber/web interface
02:17:39 <Morbus> in svn at least
02:17:43 <deusx> The special sauce is Bitlbee (http://www.bitlbee.org/)
02:17:53 <Morbus> i've heard of that.
02:18:03 <thelsdj> ah heh, interesting usage!
02:18:27 <deusx> IM decafbad with a "jerk it" for interesting results
02:18:41 <deusx> Well, jerkcity results, anyway
02:18:46 <thelsdj> ha
02:19:07 <crschmidt> 22:19:19 < Lurk> crschmidt: MY DONG IS WHAT YOU WOULD CALL "AL DENTE."
02:19:11 <thelsdj> i should do that with my infobot
02:19:14 <crschmidt> is "jerk it" the first thing anyone aadds to any infobot?
02:19:20 <thelsdj> mine has about 250k factoids
02:19:40 <crschmidt> mine only has 1270
02:19:51 <deusx> I was thinking of doing something RDF-ish with it at some point, but this was two ports installs and 20 minutes' effort
02:20:48 <crschmidt> that's okay, RDF sucks anyway
02:21:26 <deusx> I'm like 6-8 months behind the future, so I'm just catching up with all the cool kids again
02:21:33 <crschmidt> heh
02:22:04 <deusx> I'm also reading Accelerando, so I want to start building a personal exocortex now
02:22:07 <crschmidt> RDF is actually good, except for the fact that it's never changing because people refuse to adopt it and do stupid crap like microformats instead
02:22:21 <thelsdj> deusx: good stuff, i'm on 3rd chapter
02:22:32 <deusx> Oh yeah.. I like the microformats stuff, though, for digestion into RDF
02:22:50 <jcowan> * jcowan uses Google as his personal exocortex, or "spare brain" in plain English.
02:23:02 <deusx> But then I like building web page scrapers, in that masochistic sense
02:23:39 <deusx> I've got a combination of Tinderbox and Google going on for my exocortex
02:25:17 <deusx> Now if only Tinderbox supported RDF fully completely
02:27:26 <Morbus> Morbus has quit ("http://disobey.com/")
02:28:06 <crschmidt> deusx: so, you have to add a new buddy on AIM whenever you get a "Message from unknown TOC handle" ?
02:28:27 <deusx> On bitlbee?
02:28:31 <crschmidt> Yeah
02:28:43 <crschmidt> 22:27 <@root> First of all, a person must be on your contact list for you to
02:28:44 <crschmidt> chat with them
02:28:45 <deusx> There's a setting in this version, "handle_unknown" that will auto add
02:28:54 <deusx> I think that's it anyway
02:29:42 <deusx> "help set handle_unknown" gives the scoop, I think, and "set" on its own dumps all the settings
02:30:01 <deusx> "help set <var name>" is useful
02:30:09 <crschmidt> * crschmidt nods
02:30:25 <deusx> "set html strip" is also useful
02:30:56 <crschmidt> awesomeness
02:31:09 <deusx> And, for what it's worth, I had to hack my infobot instance to auto /msg nickserv identify <passwd> upon connect
02:31:20 <crschmidt> yah, I already do that with julie
02:31:39 <crschmidt> wait. nickserv?
02:31:47 <deusx> okie doke... infobot had some trigger that made it wait for a notice from NickServ
02:32:03 <crschmidt> oh, that works too, nifty
02:32:16 <deusx> Yeah, there's just announcing "identify <passwd>" and there's a limited NickServ emulation
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02:58:06 <crschmidt> wow, that was a lot of debugging for nothing
02:58:14 <crschmidt> so, julie has a space precursing all her output
02:58:21 <crschmidt> for the purpose of not interfering with chumpbots and the like
02:58:32 <crschmidt> so, root kept giving me an error message "Unknown command: ."
02:58:44 <crschmidt> and I thought it was something goofy with the irc implementation I have
02:59:07 <jcowan> * jcowan is trying to build apout under Cygwin, and it's just one Ghudamned thing after another.
02:59:10 <crschmidt> but apparently it's just a niggly bug in their command parsing - pre-command spaces are treated as the actual command
02:59:25 <crschmidt> Once I removed that space, all works fine
02:59:31 <crschmidt> so, you can now talk to julie on aim, as juliebotbot
03:00:01 <jcowan> "-botbot"?
03:00:31 <crschmidt> juliebot was taken, as was julie. So, I kept adding -bots until I got one that worked.
03:00:50 <jcowan> Ah.
03:00:56 <jcowan> * jcowan notes that few people have nicks ending in 3.
03:03:25 <deusx> wow, decafbot knows all kinds of useless stuff now that I stuffed it full of factpacks
03:03:49 <crschmidt> hey, i bet julie knows more useless stuff
03:03:50 <crschmidt> ^status
03:03:50 <julie> I currently hold 2112578 triples, 93 namespaces, and 68 stored commands. I have been running for 6.399 hours, and have used 0.031 minutes of CPU time. Stats on current machine (debian.localdomain): 23:04:03 up 27 days, 4:11, 12 users, load average: 0.04, 0.05, 0.06
03:03:59 <crschmidt> 2112578 useless things!
03:04:14 <deusx> Whoa. That's more than the original purl on #perl
03:04:36 <deusx> I'm still not entirely sure what julie does, keep meaning to check her out
03:04:44 <crschmidt> got a foaf file?
03:04:56 <crschmidt> ^available deusx
03:04:57 <julie> rdf:type, foaf:mbox_sha1sum, foaf:weblog, foaf:page, foaf:nick, foaf:dateOfBirth, foaf:homepage, foaf:aimChatID
03:05:02 <crschmidt> apparently so
03:05:03 <deusx> Hmm, an embarrassingly out of date one
03:05:05 <crschmidt> ^dob deusx
03:05:05 <julie> 1987-05-15
03:05:09 <crschmidt> that looks like a livejournal one
03:05:11 <kpreid> kpreid has quit ("until tomorrow")
03:05:12 <crschmidt> namespace collision
03:05:13 <deusx> Heh, nope, not me :)
03:05:16 <crschmidt> ^dob deus_x
03:05:17 <julie> 1975-10-24
03:05:17 <deusx> ^available deus_x
03:05:23 <deusx> yup, that's me
03:05:27 <julie> foaf:interest (x149), foaf:mbox_sha1sum (x2), foaf:page, foaf:knows (x208), foaf:dateOfBirth, foaf:workplaceHomepage, foaf:depiction, foaf:weblog, foaf:made, foaf:nick (x3), foaf:title, foaf:aimChatID, foaf:schoolHomepage, rdfs:seeAlso (x2), foaf:name, foaf:firstName, foaf:surname, foaf:homepage (x3), foaf:jabberID, foaf:yahooChatID, rdf:type, foaf:msnChatID, foaf:icqChatID, contact:nearestAirport, foaf:mbox (x2), foaf:phone
03:05:37 <crschmidt> ^contact deus_x
03:05:38 <julie> mailto:l.m.orchard@pobox.com foaf:mbox, mailto:deus_x@pobox.com foaf:mbox, deusx23 foaf:msnChatID, tel:1-877-837-7493x113 foaf:phone, deus_x foaf:jabberID, deusx23 foaf:aimChatID, deus_x foaf:yahooChatID, 48548147 foaf:icqChatID
03:05:49 <crschmidt> you have an 800 number?
03:05:59 <deusx> Yeah, that's the out of date part I think
03:06:10 <crschmidt> * crschmidt nods
03:06:12 <deusx> I think I made that in 2002 and haven't updated it since
03:06:24 <deusx> really need to overhaul my site and all my personal metadata :)
03:06:36 <jcowan> &dob jcowan
03:06:37 <crschmidt> anyway, once you ^add a file (^add http://example.org/foaf.rdf) you can query it (^q select ?p where (?p foaf:nick "crschmidt")) or use one of the built in queries
03:06:40 <jcowan> ^dob jcowan
03:06:40 <julie> Query returned no results
03:06:44 <crschmidt> ^commandlist
03:06:44 <julie> Current commands: allRelated, olb, like-pubs, maintainer, webpage, drankbeerwith, like-same-music-as, alldayevents, depiction, based_near, icbm-name, icbm, keywords, country-population, chair, kissed, todo, authorlinks, like-musicalwork, like-books, title, rsslinktitles, travel, country-background, languages, nick, workplace, commentContains, pub-address, schemaweb, desc, homepage, conferencePeople, available, country-lowestPoint, knows, dob-date
03:06:44 <julie> , quote, myersBriggs, school, wash, sha, ljinterests, xfn_met, members, country-highestPoint, rangeOf, term, made, name, neighborhoods, agentknows, rsstitles, like-musicians, places, domainOf, modified, picOfA, newdepiction, dob, weblog, contact, javaPlatform, biodob, mbox, dranklagerwith, namefromany, rsslinks,
03:06:52 <crschmidt> ^olb crschmidt
03:06:52 <julie> , , 20 year old geek. Developer, RDF-head. Bring vapourware to life. Also have girlfriend, two kids, and a job on the side.
03:08:47 <crschmidt> ^q select ?p where (?p bio:olb "20 year old geek. Developer, RDF-head. Bring vapourware to life. Also have girlfriend, two kids, and a job on the side.")
03:08:47 <julie> http://trust.mindswap.org/cgi-bin/FilmTrust/foaf.cgi?user=crschmidt#crschmidt
03:10:06 <crschmidt> ^homepage julie
03:10:07 <julie> http://crschmidt.net/julie/ (x2)
03:10:09 <crschmidt> is probably most informative
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04:36:06 <deltab> http://www.shirky.com/writings/ontology_overrated.html
04:36:26 <deltab> shared parameterized web shortcuts: yubnub.com
04:39:44 <thelsdj> for anyone interested, did a new mix, tracklist: http://thelsdj.org/mp3s/thelsdj%20-%20screw%20electronic%20music%20genres.png mp3: http://thelsdj.org/mp3s/TheLSDJ%20-%20Mix%202.mp3
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07:00:51 <BigJibby> hey Monty
07:00:52 <Monty> stickers == cauliflowers;
07:01:27 <BigJibby> Monty, what do you think of swhack?
07:01:32 <Monty> twonking superior sexy thoughts kisses overweight socket and Romanesque scientific beaver.
07:02:54 <BigJibby> Monty, explain
07:02:56 <Monty> fashionable websites fondles trendy soundtrack!
07:07:45 <BigJibby> @echo phenny, tell Monty to shut up!
07:07:46 <supybot> phenny, tell Monty to shut up!
07:07:47 <Monty> Since you an attribute
07:07:48 <Monty> emotions is rare and damp.
07:07:49 <phenny> supybot: I'll pass that on when monty is around.
07:07:49 <phenny> Monty: 07:07Z <supybot> tell Monty to shut up!
07:07:50 <Monty> Please go on.
07:07:50 <supybot> phenny: Error: "I'll" is not a valid command.
07:07:51 <phenny> Monty: 07:07Z <supybot> tell Monty to shut up!
07:07:51 <Monty> Every single day, you grow journeys.
07:07:52 <phenny> Monty: 07:07Z <supybot> tell Monty to shut up!
07:07:53 <Monty> Of Swhack'. Our crack up at all her output
07:07:54 <phenny> exceptions.KeyError: 'monty'
07:07:54 <Monty> heh! ass-cramp.
07:07:55 <phenny> exceptions.KeyError: 'monty'
07:07:56 <Monty> I reckon the_other_cj + dishwashers = thermometer!!!
07:07:58 <Monty> Id rather than Folktown Museum.
07:09:14 <BigJibby> what happened to phenny there?
07:12:40 <sbp> um. nothing
07:17:01 <Schmeez> Schmeez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
07:17:36 <BigJibby> she just really likes to talk to Monty? :)
07:17:36 <Monty> What does that suggest to you ?
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07:17:48 <BigJibby> Monty, she loves you
07:17:49 <Monty> What are your feelings now ?
07:18:09 <BigJibby> Monty, anger
07:18:09 <Monty> ha
07:23:40 <BigJibby> time
07:23:58 <BigJibby> Monty, what time is it?
07:24:02 <Monty> bacon dynamic edges tickles Alan Cox's discount and plump anal operating-systems.
07:25:16 <BigJibby> Monty, countdown
07:25:16 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 100, 4, 5, 2, 2, 8. Your target is 631. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
07:25:45 <BigJibby> none
07:25:46 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
07:25:47 <Monty> Oh bugger, I don't think I can solve that one!
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07:42:19 <sbp> hi phenny
07:42:20 <phenny> Hello sbp.
07:50:13 <sbp> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4114312.stm
07:50:19 <sbp> - Paper's 'wikitorial' trial halted
07:50:25 <sbp> didn't even know about that. that's a shame
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08:04:29 <sbp> email to WL: [[[
08:04:29 <sbp> The problem with these smaller trials is that the userbase isn't as
08:04:29 <sbp> determined as the vandals. With Wikipedia, that's never been the case.
08:04:30 <sbp> The answer? Why didn't they publish the articles on en.wikipedia.org,
08:04:30 <sbp> I wonder? :-)
08:04:31 <sbp> ]]]
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08:05:36 <Monty> lo bjoern_
08:06:14 <bjoern_> yo Monty
08:06:23 <Monty> and, um, http://image2.myfonts.com/image2/charactermap/92/925dcedfec3695c40e97bb25bd460d30.png seems speed limitation is out with how long it's implemented as that sort of laptops by habit
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08:46:03 <sbp> hmm
08:46:13 <sbp> my Shakespeare chronology is over 5000 words now
08:46:48 <sbp> I ought to just give up and write a biography
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09:29:06 <Monty> welcome, dda_
09:29:39 <dda_> heya
09:29:40 <phenny> dda_: 21 Jun 21:39Z <bear> tell dda_ you just missed this when you last signed off: phenny dda_: 20:14Z <valmont> tell dda_ you're welcome!
09:30:01 <dda_> hmmm and "this" being...?
09:30:22 <dda_> thanks phenny
09:30:23 <phenny> You're welcome.
09:30:29 <dda_> I love this bot
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10:16:03 <leobard41> leobard41 (~Miranda@corp-204.dfki.uni-kl.de) has joined #swhack
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10:22:39 <ngd> ngd (~neil@host81-155-156-221.range81-155.btcentralplus.com) has joined #swhack
10:45:18 <sbp> 2309 16902 93845 Shakespeare-Sonnets
10:47:22 <ngd> ngd has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
10:54:11 <dda_> dda_ has left #swhack
10:55:07 <sbp> 2309 17513 93742 Shakespeare-Sonnets-Modern
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10:56:51 <Monty> hi ngd
10:57:04 <ngd> yo Monty
10:57:05 <Monty> yay, already done that
11:12:40 <bjoern_> bjoern_ (~bjoern@dsl-084-056-245-058.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
11:12:40 <Monty> bah, it's bjoern_ again
11:13:22 <bjoern_> Hi Monty
11:13:29 <Monty> yes. try to unlock and thereat the time it eleven words, eighteen syllables, and attacking anyone have time in IRC as statements
11:22:19 <sbp> .cp ct
11:22:22 <phenny> 0009: <control> ( )
11:22:25 <phenny> 0086: <control> ()
11:22:28 <phenny> 0087: <control> () [...]
11:22:31 <sbp> .cp ct.*lig
11:22:35 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'ct.*lig'.
11:23:26 <ngd> ngd has quit ()
11:23:47 <sbp> .gc "LATIN SMALL LIGATURE ST"
11:23:50 <phenny> "LATIN SMALL LIGATURE ST": 371
11:23:51 <sbp> .gc "LATIN SMALL LIGATURE CT"
11:23:54 <phenny> "LATIN SMALL LIGATURE CT": 9
11:25:32 <sbp> .cp ^F520
11:25:36 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for '^F520'.
11:26:47 <sbp> hmm, private use
11:27:07 <sbp> from http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/corpchar.html
11:31:26 <bskahan> bskahan (~bskahan@pool-68-161-35-67.ny325.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
11:32:52 <sbp> hmm: http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/sonnets.htm
11:44:20 <sbp> wow! http://oll.libertyfund.org/Intros/Shakespeare.php
11:55:44 <edsu> edsu has quit ("leaving")
11:56:50 <xover> Apple sued over iTunes software interface (The Patent System Rocks!): http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1143
11:57:44 <xover> Apparently, the iTunes user interface too closely resembles a badly done pencil drawing which the git has managed to patent.
11:58:43 <uche> ?????!!!!!
11:58:52 <uche> you can't patent a drawing
11:59:03 <uche> is it a copyright suit (typical for look&feel)?
11:59:20 <xover> An exhibit attached to the complaint: http://images.appleinsider.com/images/itunes-suit-exhib-a-061305.jpg
11:59:52 <uche> * uche is RTFA
12:00:47 <xover> No, I'm being facetious. It's some kind of software patent, but the exhibit compares a screenshot of iTunes with what looks like a pencil drawing of what the plaintif imagines his patent would look like.
12:01:58 <kpreid> kpreid (~kpreid@69-169-188-143.bflony.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
12:02:13 <uche> fucking preposterous
12:04:21 <JibberJim> I agree, this blatant rip off of the interface is disgusting...
12:04:52 <uche> Eat one, dude
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13:35:29 <deltab> uche: there are things called design patents; Apple has some on the design of their products, both hardware (iMac) and software (trashcan icon)
13:36:21 <jcowan> jcowan (~jcowan@167.206.188.3) has joined #swhack
13:36:36 <jcowan> Ittywhonk!
13:37:30 <deltab> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=153488&cid=12879490
13:38:20 <deltab> heroes and superheroes as products of their environments
13:40:12 <jcowan> Interesting but overblown.
13:40:25 <deltab> I liked "It's as if their immune systems, maddened by lack of productive work, take up hiding in the campus tower and sniping at innocent proteins going about their business."
13:40:55 <jcowan> In practice, Batman has to face villains he can beat, which means they can't be from the 18th dimension or he'll lose big.
13:41:20 <Morbus> .
13:41:21 <Morbus> .
13:41:21 <Morbus> .
13:42:08 <jcowan> Little hexes / On the game map / Little hexes / Made of nothing much / Little hexes / Little hexes / Little hexes / All the same ....
13:45:01 <jsled> Hmm. It's hard to know who to support... the small, local, Vermont tech company or the victim of an obviously-silly patent infringement.
13:45:10 <Morbus> heh, heh.
13:45:35 <jsled> Were I the judge, I'd say "well, the apple UI is in terms of pixels, while you've used a #3 pencil. Different mediums = different design."
13:45:54 <bska|mobile> bska|mobile (~bskahan@pool-70-19-81-157.ny325.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
13:45:55 <Monty> Thank goodness, bska|mobile is back!
13:45:57 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
13:46:02 <Monty> i?ve been 'nothing at though they just havent even less options from time in enough channels
13:46:24 <jsled> Design patents seem like the _least_ silly of the bunch.
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13:48:11 <Morbus> * Morbus posts http://www.gamegrene.com/node/498
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14:00:59 <crschmidt> Morbus: Do you know anything about WoW on a mac?
14:01:06 <Morbus> been playing it for months.
14:01:40 <Morbus> what's up?
14:02:29 <crschmidt> New roomate of ours is a WoW fan and is going to need to buy a new computer relatively soon. Is buying a Mac laptop (with, say, a gig of ram) going to be enough for her to play WoW on?
14:02:47 <Morbus> what's the vid card in it?
14:03:02 <Morbus> a gig of ram should be fine, yeah. that's what i have (i added another 512 speficically for WoW, and I'd say a gig is required)
14:08:34 <crschmidt> hm, whatever's in the neweest powerbooks
14:09:30 <crschmidt> Are the servers between PC and mac the same?
14:10:07 <Morbus> yep.
14:10:14 <Morbus> if you play, get on shadowsong.
14:10:22 <Morbus> i'm a troll.
14:10:35 <Morbus> whatever the vid card is in the powerbooks should be fine, i guess.
14:10:44 <Morbus> if it's 32, i think.
14:10:48 <Morbus> i think that's what i have in my dual g5.
14:10:51 <Morbus> maybe a 64. i have no idea.
14:11:13 <Morbus> ram is the biggest factor though.
14:11:13 <Morbus> the vid card stuff you can scale down in the prefs.
14:11:13 <jcowan> jcowan has changed the topic to: <Morbus> i'm a troll.
14:11:19 <crschmidt> ATI Mobility Radeon
14:11:22 <crschmidt> 9700 (64 MB DDR)
14:11:46 <Morbus> there's a huge discussion on the WoW boards about mac tweaks.
14:11:52 <crschmidt> That's the 15", the 12" is a NVIDIA GeForce FX
14:11:53 <crschmidt> Go5200 (64MB DDR)
14:12:00 <crschmidt> * crschmidt nods
14:12:03 <crschmidt> loggy: pointer
14:12:03 <crschmidt> See http://swhack.com/logs/2005-06-22#T14-12-03
14:12:09 <Morbus> after I went through all of them, the jump to 1g was the masterstroke, which allowed me to undo all my other tweaks and run at about 90% capability.
14:12:22 <Morbus> yeah, that card should be fine.
14:12:29 <jcowan> "If you have money to spend, spend it on RAM." --wise old fart's advice
14:12:45 <Morbus> there was a discussion about how one of those cards sucks, and the other one doesn't.
14:12:45 <Morbus> or one model of card, I dunno.
14:12:46 <Morbus> I know that I had it.
14:12:54 <crschmidt> heh, heh
14:12:56 <Morbus> And that, with enough RAM, it became a null issue ;)
14:13:19 <crschmidt> * crschmidt nods
14:14:05 <Morbus> i think my posts are on page #18 or #1923123213 in that thread.
14:14:09 <Morbus> * Morbus chuckles.
14:14:11 <Morbus> regardless...
14:14:19 <Morbus> you should play too.
14:14:35 <crschmidt> Can't. My computer couldn't handle it.
14:15:09 <Morbus> booo.
14:15:21 <Morbus> yeah, 512 cost me 80 bucks from crucial, i think.
14:15:31 <jcowan> [[[
14:15:32 <jcowan> Amnesty International's website was blocked, suggesting that the Chinese government holds the international human rights group in the same regard as the Bush administration.
14:15:39 <jcowan> ]]] -- Wired article on Chinese bloggers
14:16:02 <crschmidt> I've got 256MB right now
14:16:04 <crschmidt> I'm on a 12", so I can't get two 512s - and I want to make it to a gig, so I've got to do it all at once.
14:17:33 <crschmidt> And 1GB is a lot more than two 512s.
14:20:48 <jcowan> * jcowan wishes he could persuade Windows to expose a log of what it's printed lately.
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14:26:39 <jcowan> Ittywhonk.
14:26:40 <jcowan> jcowan has left #swhack
14:26:46 <crschmidt> http://powerlinememory.com/powerbook_12inch_1GHz_combodrive.htm -- $106 for 512, $299 for 1GB
14:27:25 <Morbus> yeah, laptop memory is always more expensive, right?
14:27:58 <bancus> bancus has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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14:28:09 <crschmidt> Dunno
14:28:17 <Morbus> my only laptop at the moment is an 8m, 66mhz, 512meg toshiba that dualboots win95 and an old Linux system (DragonLinux, I think).
14:28:27 <crschmidt> heh
14:29:00 <Morbus> yeah, dragonlinux.
14:29:03 <Morbus> runs off umsdos.
14:29:08 <Morbus> so, you can boot it from windows, etc.
14:29:18 <Morbus> i didn't know about cygwin back then ;)
14:29:54 <JimJibAct> JimJibAct is now known as JimJibber
14:30:08 <sbp> if there even was one. hi Morbus
14:30:18 <sbp> lolz at the ongoing map saga
14:30:55 <Morbus> shuddup.
14:31:00 <Morbus> its been driving me batty.
14:31:13 <Morbus> I can either move forward remotely unhappy for another 100 hours.
14:31:16 <sbp> perhaps you should just stick with the ASCII
14:31:20 <Morbus> or, I cna start over and spend another month trying to find an alternative.
14:31:33 <Morbus> well, that's a consideration too but, as you said, what's a river and what's a road?
14:31:43 <sbp> problem is, you've likely found all the good ones
14:31:46 <Morbus> and, a "nice" map will have to exist at some point if I ever make a book out of it.
14:31:47 <sbp> road/river: yeah, that is a pain
14:32:19 <Morbus> * Morbus posts http://www.gamegrene.com/node/498
14:32:20 <Morbus> ^^
14:32:39 <sbp> yeah, seen that from backscroll
14:33:03 <Morbus> i also think there's gonna be a problem once i get to the bulk of the map.
14:33:07 <Morbus> the chaos in the center.
14:33:11 <sbp> you could always hire someone to hand draw it
14:33:15 <sbp> heh, yes
14:33:17 <Morbus> there's gonna be off by ones, etc., etc.
14:33:19 <sbp> all maps are like that though
14:33:21 <Morbus> well, i've been thinking that too.
14:33:26 <kandinski> recurring!
14:34:09 <Morbus> but, again, we go back to the beginning.
14:34:09 <kandinski> kandinski has changed the topic to: RECURRING
14:34:09 <Morbus> am i gonna pay him every round?
14:34:11 <Morbus> what if he dies? do i know have to find a mimicker?
14:34:11 <kandinski> obviously, I recurr
14:34:11 <Morbus> and can *I* handle the idea that I'm trusting someone else with exacting measurements?
14:35:26 <sbp> I still think it's the best idea
14:35:35 <sbp> even paying him every round, think of the time you'd save
14:35:42 <sbp> can you put a value on your time?
14:36:15 <Morbus> well, i'd probably spend "the time i save" making the map trying to edit his.
14:36:18 <Morbus> and, if its hand drawn, that'd mean eraser marks, etc.
14:36:36 <Morbus> if something is one lele off, you can't just pick up parts of the map and relayer it.
14:36:38 <jsled> just don't make a mistake.
14:37:03 <jsled> I'm out; later, all.
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15:07:42 <sbp> "(book compiled from Revision 1337)"
15:07:47 <sbp> - http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/svn-book.html
15:35:30 <Ash> leet
15:35:43 <Ash> sup hosers
15:43:53 <deltab> Morbus: why exacting measurements?
15:53:09 <Arnia> Arnia (~jgeldart@roam-88-209.dur.ac.uk) has joined #swhack
16:00:43 <Morbus> deltab: because we have exacting data, and i'd like to be able to extrapolate new data from the map
16:04:58 <deltab> you do?
16:05:17 <deltab> how was it obtained, and how do you know it's accurate?
16:06:03 <deltab> is that even possible in Ghyll?
16:06:15 <Morbus> yes, it's possible.
16:06:22 <Morbus> we know that one town is x leles away from another.
16:06:30 <Morbus> that's how the ascii map came to be in the first place, which itself is exact.
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16:10:29 <deltab> but is Ghyll?
16:11:13 <Morbus> it is exact enough that I care to make a map, a replacement for one that has been in existence for six months now, so discussions of WHY I need the exacting measure is irrelevant and pointless.
16:11:16 <deltab> the universe doesn't always match up to the Hitchhiker's Guide description of it
16:11:28 <deltab> okay
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16:17:48 <Morbus> sorry for being snippy.
16:21:49 <deltab> it just didn't fit with my idea of Ghyll with its orthogonalities and Awal shrinkage
16:23:51 <deltab> it's not as if they have GPS systems, right?
16:26:51 <deltab> but I should be doing more productive things, such as working out how to flatten hexagonal bumps — but not by too much
16:29:39 <deltab> do you have a preferred orientation for the hex grid?
16:29:47 <Arnia> Arnia has left #swhack
16:30:06 <Morbus> horizontal top.
16:30:18 <Morbus> the current ghyll map is rect horizontal.
16:30:22 <Morbus> so that's what the svg map is too.
16:30:27 <Morbus> which i don't have a copy of on this machine.
16:30:31 <Morbus> lemme see if i can ssh for a second.
16:30:53 <Jibbler> Jibbler has quit (Client Quit)
16:30:56 <crschmidt> No. ssh must be measured in minutes only!
16:31:07 <Morbus> in this case, yeah. i'm torrenting.
16:31:23 <Morbus> and i just uploaded a bunch of albums for a priv list too.
16:32:56 <Morbus> http://feast-or-fa.mine.nu:8888/~morbus/ghyll_map.png
16:32:59 <Morbus> its gonna be really really slow.
16:33:26 <Morbus> (the real map doesn't have that hex overlay, btw - that was just a gone-wrong test. eventually, there WILL be a hex overlay, but a lot more subtle.
16:34:37 <Morbus> )
16:34:38 <Morbus> afk for trough.
16:46:00 <ngd> ngd (~neil@host81-153-234-233.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) has joined #swhack
16:46:00 <Monty> But what does ngd have to do with the price of fish?
16:46:00 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
16:46:01 <Monty> bliss ninnies :-) the download link ;-)
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17:16:49 <shapr> coi rodo
17:18:42 <sbp> shapr: hi, and welcome to Swhack. sorry that there's no one to speak Lojban with you at the moment, but if you'd like to stay on the line, someone will be right with you
17:19:06 <sbp> also, this is a publically logged channel. beware! for your future potential political career could quite easily be ruined by what you say here
17:19:08 <sbp> more information at swhack.com
17:19:47 <shapr> I can survive without lojban.
17:19:53 <shapr> Kind of you to offer though.
17:19:58 <shapr> Are you a bot?
17:20:28 <shapr> * shapr stares suspiciously at sbp
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17:21:00 <sbp> hey, bugger you mate
17:21:00 <thelsdj> sbp is a very botlike human
17:21:10 <sbp> very humanlike bot
17:21:11 <shapr> Cool, something we have in common!
17:21:24 <shapr> I am regularly accused of being a bot.
17:21:44 <shapr> Will you be at EuroPython?
17:21:46 <bjoern_h> bjoern_h (~bjoern@dsl-084-056-241-246.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
17:21:55 <sbp> well I don't mind being accused when I rattle that stuff off, if I do it immediately... but after a three minute delay I'd hope you'd catch on
17:22:03 <sbp> EuroPython: nope, sadly
17:22:37 <shapr> My future political career has already been spoiled by years of public logging elsewhere.
17:22:48 <sbp> will you? (yes, you will, otherwise you wouldn't've asked, but just making small talk)
17:23:15 <shapr> No, actually, I won't be there this year. But I was there last year.
17:23:19 <sbp> well, here if you want to slander people/yourself, you can always prefix your lines with [off]
17:23:23 <sbp> ah, cool
17:23:29 <shapr> That's thoughtful.
17:23:41 <crschmidt> unless you're slandering myself. In which case there's no use
17:23:45 <shapr> oops
17:23:47 <sbp> yeah
17:23:59 <sbp> feel free to slander crschmidt, and beware of Morbus
17:24:08 <AaronSw> AaronSw (~AaronSw@SIMMONS-FIVE-O-FIVE.MIT.EDU) has joined #swhack
17:24:08 <Monty> hey AaronSw
17:24:14 <thelsdj> morbus is a bit like a grue
17:24:15 <AaronSw> Danny O: "Within the space of a few hours, the committee was Slashdotted, BoingBoinged and Instalanched."
17:25:01 <shapr> hiya AaronSw
17:25:02 <ngd> ngd (~neil@host81-153-234-233.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) has joined #swhack
17:25:06 <redmonk> bing
17:25:17 <redmonk> anyone have a use casse/requirements tool they like?
17:26:12 <shapr> 3x5 cards?
17:26:45 <shapr> Some of the Ward's Wiki pages claim that the physicality of the 3x5 cards improves the process.
17:28:03 <sbp> he really should've picked a better name
17:28:14 <shapr> who?
17:28:21 <sbp> Ward Cunningham
17:28:22 <shapr> Ward?
17:28:31 <sbp> like "docugasmatron" or something
17:28:31 <shapr> I dunno, Ward sounds so very shield-like.
17:28:44 <shapr> * shapr grins evilly
17:28:44 <sbp> shield-like?
17:28:49 <shapr> Yeah, "Ward"
17:28:56 <shapr> Like, guard, shield, etc.
17:29:07 <shapr> Sorry, I'm practicing creative listening.
17:29:09 <Morbus> * Morbus returns from lunch.
17:29:22 <sbp> strange habit. you'll fit in fine here
17:29:28 <sbp> as long as you BEWARE OF THE MORBUS
17:29:34 <sbp> (seriously)
17:29:38 <shapr> Purposeful misinterpretation of ambiguities in conversations is always fun.
17:29:40 <sbp> (leg-humping galore)
17:29:43 <shapr> yow!
17:30:01 <Morbus> i am the swhack grue!
17:30:13 <thelsdj> * thelsdj hids his children from the monstrous Morbus
17:30:16 <shapr> I'm just a programmer.
17:30:28 <sbp> them's the one 'e goes for, innit
17:30:48 <shapr> oy, guv, 'e's not me type
17:30:59 <Morbus> someone recommeded Visio for a map making util too.
17:31:01 <sbp> fo schnizzle?
17:31:10 <Morbus> * Morbus started a discussion on a few lists.
17:31:20 <sbp> .g Visio
17:31:24 <phenny> Visio: http://www.microsoft.com/office/visio/
17:31:27 <Morbus> ack!
17:31:29 <shapr> fo sheezy! I be chillin wit de bwoyz in da hood.
17:31:29 <Morbus> delete, delete.
17:31:38 <sbp> shapr: so... how did you stumble in here? kpreid? jcowan?
17:31:43 <sbp> Morbus: heh, heh
17:31:44 <Morbus> oh god, the shapr image has infected swhack
17:31:49 <shapr> I'm actually from Birmingham, Alabama, so I can really talk like that.
17:31:56 <sbp> <Clippy> Would you like to learn how to delete now, or just delete?
17:32:05 <shapr> I got here via jcowan actually.
17:32:17 <shapr> Though I do know kpreid.
17:32:19 <sbp> well that's a class referral
17:32:21 <Morbus> <Clippy> It appears you're making a map
17:32:29 <Morbus> <Clippy> Would you like me to place Redmond Way?
17:32:33 <sbp> hehe
17:32:53 <thelsdj> <Clippy> Would you like to buy a bridge in Washington?
17:33:08 <Morbus> huh. neat.
17:33:14 <Morbus> i guess i'm a staff member over at phoenyx.net now.
17:33:22 <shapr> I'm a former Python lover. I've defected to the purely functional World#.
17:33:24 <Morbus> i volunteered to edit the fudge factor releases.
17:33:26 <sbp> sbp has changed the topic to: Swhack Presents: Clippy Jokes! (and shapr)
17:33:38 <sbp> former?
17:33:48 <sbp> Python is undefectable-from
17:34:01 <shapr> And yet, I have found something that is more to my taste.
17:34:02 <sbp> .gc undefectable
17:34:06 <sbp> .gc indefectable
17:34:06 <phenny> undefectable: 242
17:34:09 <phenny> indefectable: 113
17:34:22 <sbp> .gc Python undefectable
17:34:37 <phenny> Python undefectable: 1
17:34:38 <shapr> Wow, those logs get indexed fast.
17:34:38 <Morbus> oh, wait, not phoenyx.net.
17:34:39 <Morbus> fudgefactor.org
17:34:44 <Morbus> which is better. cos i only care about fudge.
17:34:54 <Morbus> phenny, tell jcowan i'm now a staff member at fudgefactor.org. whee!
17:34:55 <sbp> hmm, it's a Monty Python reference
17:34:58 <phenny> Morbus: I'll pass that on when jcowan is around.
17:34:58 <Monty> piddles arse-faced homely cyanobacteria :P
17:35:02 <sbp> I suppose that's undefectable-from too
17:35:04 <shapr> Anyway, should I give a short introduction of myself?
17:35:08 <sbp> yeah, yeah. quiet Monty
17:35:13 <Monty> just a scarier kind of architecture widgets in any RPG with [off] 3.4,6-8 are good! :)
17:35:13 <sbp> shapr: y'please!
17:35:15 <Morbus> jcowan is the only other person i know who knew what fudge wsa before i beat him.
17:35:40 <sbp> <shapr> <- me
17:35:44 <sbp> <sbp> bit longer?
17:35:46 <sbp> <shapr> <- this is me
17:35:49 <sbp> <sbp> awesome
17:35:54 <Morbus> so, sbp: did you solve my map problems?
17:35:59 <sbp> yep
17:36:08 <sbp> I told you to hire someone
17:36:12 <shapr> Born in Alabama, now six years in Europe, unicycles, Haskell, lojban, spoken programming, expression, teamwork
17:36:16 <Morbus> oh, shapr: http://gamegrene.com/wiki/
17:36:26 <sbp> unicycles? hmm, that reminds me...
17:36:27 <Morbus> jcowan plays regularly. it originated in #swhack.
17:36:34 <sbp> (told you to beware of Morbus)
17:36:36 <Morbus> nearly everyone here has had something to do with it.
17:36:54 <Morbus> even if it's my son's stupid "i don't have time" remark.
17:36:54 <shapr> Huh, funny to see Neel in a game context rather than PLT research.
17:36:59 <Morbus> * Morbus raises fist in air.
17:37:08 <sbp> http://tlb.org/eunicycle.html
17:37:17 <Morbus> yeah, Neel's a semi-regularly writer over at 20by20room.com
17:37:19 <shapr> My next unicycle will be ready on Monday. I can barely wait! It shall be the ultimate arctic municycle.
17:37:23 <Morbus> which is where the Lex originated.
17:37:30 <shapr> Yeah, Trevor's self-correcting eunicycle is nifty.
17:37:40 <shapr> I think it could be better applied to general purpose transportation though.
17:37:49 <Morbus> so, sbp, what's the answers?
17:37:52 <kpreid> * kpreid blinks
17:37:56 <sbp> Morbus: hire someone
17:37:58 <shapr> I've thought about dual counter rotating spheres for motorcycles.
17:38:00 <shapr> coi kpreid .i ma nuzba
17:38:10 <Morbus> you're useless.
17:38:23 <sbp> coi kpreid !carp iz tasti
17:38:29 <kpreid> coi doi shapr so'o da
17:39:09 <sbp> I'm at least less useless than a broken zip
17:39:16 <thelsdj> hmm i wonder if screen has a command like alt+a in irssi where it jumps to the 'most active' window
17:39:18 <sbp> so don't get all "useless. fah. <G>" on me
17:39:31 <shapr> ERC has that.
17:39:44 <sbp> perhaps you can just run screen in irssi
17:39:53 <shapr> That would make sense.
17:40:09 <sbp> funny thing is, they are pretty similar interfaces except when screen goes all cursesy
17:40:21 <sbp> you type stuff in, it inputs it, and bits of output flow past
17:40:25 <sbp> it's all text-mode, line-based
17:40:40 <shapr> kpreid: I still haven't come back to capability theory yet, but one day I will.
17:40:40 <kpreid> je'e
17:40:40 <kpreid> #erights is slightly active these days
17:40:41 <shapr> shocking
17:40:55 <kpreid> I said, slightly
17:41:23 <shapr> Random question, who here has met Jon Singer?
17:41:25 <kpreid> I've been doing E stuff mostly
17:41:32 <kpreid> not so much lojban stuff
17:41:42 <kpreid> dunno what else you're interested in :)
17:41:47 <shapr> Just about everything.
17:41:50 <kpreid> never heard of 'im
17:42:02 <shapr> I've been running a bunch of Haskell-related stuff, especially The Monad.Reader wikizine.
17:42:31 <kpreid> ah, haskell
17:42:32 <kpreid> I should give it another look sometime
17:42:43 <shapr> Oh, and I've recently thought of a way to improve upon the way lisp/scheme lend themselves to metaprogramming via a modification of Joy.
17:43:09 <ngd> ngd has quit ()
17:43:20 <shapr> It might be a dead end though, I'm not sure yet.
17:44:22 <shapr> You might like Haskell, it's deep enough to have held my interested for four years now.
17:44:22 <kpreid> speaking of metaprogramming, can I mention something that bothered me about Haskell?
17:44:22 <shapr> er "interest"
17:44:22 <kpreid> I think I finally figured out what it is
17:44:22 <shapr> bien sûr
17:44:22 <kpreid> ki'a
17:44:26 <shapr> talar du franska?
17:44:47 <shapr> Is that a great name for French or what?
17:44:47 <kpreid> not at all
17:44:55 <sbp> nein. franska ist nicht eine language
17:45:10 <shapr> The Swedish word for French is France-ish.
17:45:10 <Morbus> * Morbus still doesn't like the idea of hiring somebody.
17:45:11 <shapr> Jo, det finns i svenska!
17:45:52 <shapr> kpreid: Go ahead, tell me!
17:46:14 <kpreid> shapr: well, you have the lazy-functional layer and the IO monad layer
17:46:20 <sbp> Morbus: the biggest flaw that I can see with it is that it's going to probably cost a fair amount to get the job done properly
17:46:25 <kpreid> (and the 'rest of the world' layer)
17:46:25 <shapr> I don't really speak much past American. I speak a minimal chunk of Swedish and a tiny bit of French.
17:46:31 <kpreid> and they're strictly nested, of course
17:46:36 <sbp> and finding a decent map author may take as long as finding a decent program, perhaps even longer
17:46:38 <sbp> BUT
17:46:50 <kpreid> but you can't safely fake them not being
17:46:50 <sbp> the results will be many, many times more professional
17:47:01 <shapr> Technically, the IO monad is the same as the rest of the world layer.
17:47:05 <sbp> which I thought was the point of Ghyll; to do all this stuff Right
17:47:14 <shapr> In fact, the World# is the name of the state of the entire world that gets passed around.
17:47:15 <kpreid> you can't put imperative operations underneath the lazy layer safely
17:47:21 <kpreid> well, yes
17:47:36 <shapr> You can actually. Monads force sequencing. That's their entire reason for existence.
17:47:39 <Morbus> sbp: so, in your opinion, the output of the inkscape/wesnoth thing would still not be professional enough?
17:47:43 <Morbus> (not a bait; serious q).
17:47:51 <kpreid> shapr: um, that's not quite what I meant
17:48:15 <shapr> The computational structure of a monad looks like (a -> m b) where m b looks the same. So you get (a -> (b -> (c -> ...)))
17:48:23 <sbp> well it's more professional than ASCII and less professional than a skilled cartographer's output; I just thought that the point was to do it as well as possible
17:48:35 <kpreid> I mean, the ability to write 'plain' haskell in which some of the primitives actually have side-effects. if you do this in a way that the lazy results never leak out of this overlay then it's safe
17:48:37 <shapr> kpreid: Ok, let me reread then.
17:48:42 <kpreid> but I don't think you can do that in haskell
17:48:58 <sbp> I think the jump from Inkscape/Wesnoth to Cartographer would be larger than from ASCII to Inkscape/Wesnoth, FWIW
17:49:06 <kpreid> and I once found I couldn't write a program because of it
17:49:13 <Morbus> sbp: well, then, start finding me some samples.
17:49:17 <shapr> Oh, I see what you mean. That's true, you can't do that, there's a really good reason why too.
17:49:21 <Morbus> of people you'd want to draw it.
17:49:26 <kpreid> this is probably a silly thing that i just have my brain stuck on, but it came to mind :)
17:49:27 <sbp> damn, I knew you'd say that
17:49:30 <sbp> but I have seen a few around, so...
17:49:33 <kpreid> name it. I think I've thought of it already!
17:49:40 <shapr> Ok, tell me!
17:49:43 <shapr> I might learn something!
17:49:57 <shapr> I am a font of establishment FP knowledge, so I'd rather hear your perspective first.
17:50:05 <kpreid> no, you tell me! i'm rusty with the words to say these things
17:50:30 <sbp> whyn't tell one another simultaneously?
17:50:33 <shapr> Ok, but only if you record your idea first.
17:50:47 <shapr> In my experience, novices learning something new often have deep insights that are generally not available in the experience part of a community.
17:51:36 <kpreid> okay: I think you're going to say that it can't be done because you then lose such things as referential transparency and the ordering guarantees of the IO monad
17:51:43 <kpreid> the things Haskell's layering gives
17:52:13 <shapr> That's correct. There's more because referential transparency means the compiler can reorder computations however it wants.
17:52:39 <shapr> In fact, Haskell's non-strict nature is always faster than any strict language for a certain class of algorithms, those that can be 'amortized'.
17:53:02 <kpreid> Right, I know all that! :)
17:53:14 <shapr> What you described, a 'Haskell with side-effects', sounds a lot like OCaml, so you may want to try that language.
17:53:24 <shapr> Excellent!
17:53:55 <kpreid> I avoided *ml. Didn't seem much point to go not all-the-way.
17:53:59 <kpreid> Anyway:
17:54:00 <shapr> I've recently wondered if the overwhelming use of strict languages is only cultural.
17:54:05 <kpreid> Consider this.
17:54:29 <kpreid> Write a Haskell interpreter in imperative (IO-monad) Haskell.
17:55:00 <kpreid> Then, the primitive functions available to code running in that interpreter could have side effects.
17:55:04 <sbp> "Fees can range from $50 USD to $2500 USD based on the factors named above." - http://www.darkleagues.com/fantasymapping/rights.htm
17:55:11 <shapr> So far, I think the only reason non-strict programming languages cause so much confusion is that strict language behaviour has been a basic part of the programming culture as long as there has been such a culture.
17:55:43 <shapr> Monads are both pure and have side-effects. They do that by only allowing the IO monad to 'wind forward.'
17:56:02 <sbp> Morbus: one of the GURPS authors seems to have used him
17:56:08 <bjoern_h> bjoern_h is now known as bjoern_
17:56:13 <kpreid> shapr: um...are you listening?
17:56:16 <shapr> I am listening.
17:56:22 <shapr> I am not sure I am understanding.
17:56:24 <Morbus> sbp: these are all done in campaign cartographer, it look slike.
17:56:26 <sbp> can't find a single portfolio piece though
17:56:27 <Morbus> not hand drawn at all.
17:56:28 <shapr> I am making a serious effort to think though.
17:56:30 <kpreid> sorry, it just seems like I keep hearing basic Haskell explained
17:56:34 <sbp> yeah. couldn't find any
17:56:56 <shapr> Very few people understand basic Haskell, and many people come to be for such explanations, so maybe I'm reacting reflexively.
17:57:03 <shapr> er "come to me"
17:57:14 <kpreid> shapr: my premise is this:
17:57:46 <kpreid> lazy code can be convenient for writing certain algorithms
17:58:02 <kpreid> but you can't use it in Haskell for some problems because they involve IO
17:58:29 <shapr> You can lazily do IO, but I think that's not what you're saying?
17:58:30 <Morbus> sbp: yeah, he wants more money for a, seemingly, CC version.
17:58:41 <sbp> this guy is good: http://www.tolkienmaps.com/stephenraw.html
17:58:55 <sbp> very good. but that'll mean exhorbitant rates
17:58:58 <kpreid> so, allow lazy code to trigger IO actions, given that it's on top of an IO-level layer that promises to handle errors and changes
17:59:01 <Morbus> exactly.
17:59:06 <Morbus> how about this: it's your idea, you pay for it.
17:59:08 <Morbus> :)
17:59:12 <shapr> You can reorder IO computations. One of the monad laws is (a >>= b) >>= c must be the same as a >>= (b >>= c).
17:59:22 <kpreid> ...
17:59:48 <sbp> he's possibly not even hirable
17:59:49 <shapr> What you describe sounds much like Software Transactional Memory to me, but I'm still not sure.
17:59:49 <Morbus> sbp: honestly, if these people are doing it in campaign cartographer, i'd rather learn to fish then buy one.
17:59:49 <kpreid> I UNDERSTAND THE IO MONAD!
17:59:51 <shapr> Right, ok then :-)
17:59:51 <Morbus> and the first URL looks CC to me.
17:59:52 <Morbus> (camp carto)
17:59:53 <kpreid> please stop explaining it
17:59:57 <shapr> Sorry
18:00:07 <Morbus> yeah! he even has CC banners on his page.
18:00:08 <kpreid> sorry. frustration overload
18:00:13 <shapr> No worries, happens to me too.
18:00:21 <kpreid> it's not your fault, I'm not explaining this well
18:00:21 <shapr> Especially when my Ritalin wears off.
18:00:34 <kpreid> shapr: you're familiar with the Parsec library?
18:00:37 <shapr> I am.
18:01:12 <kpreid> I once was writing a programming language with it for the parser
18:01:17 <sbp> Morbus: yeah, I was just looking tentatively, certainly not suggesting him
18:01:31 <kpreid> and as a half-baked library system I decided to add #include-equivalent
18:01:31 <Morbus> http://www.darkleagues.com/fantasymapping/maps/overland/Darkdown/Darkdown500x600.htm
18:01:32 <sbp> I'd insist on hand drawing if hiring
18:01:34 <kpreid> ...can't be done
18:01:35 <Morbus> i think i like that one the best.
18:01:39 <Morbus> out of his CC work.
18:01:44 <kpreid> without unsafePerformIO, or so it seemed at the time
18:01:59 <kpreid> because the parse actions are inside the functional level
18:02:24 <kpreid> and you can't mix up Parser(iirc) and IO since Parser does backtracking
18:02:27 <Morbus> sbp: that first URL was master mapper two years ago: http://www.profantasy.com/community/masters.asp
18:02:47 <kpreid> what I'm talking about is the vague outline of a way to fix that
18:03:03 <sbp> hmm. perhaps we could ask d8uv to take a crack at it
18:03:25 <Morbus> d8uv?
18:03:33 <shapr> dative?
18:03:46 <shapr> It's true, you can't mix IO and backtracking.
18:04:00 <shapr> Because IO can't be undone.
18:04:00 <sbp> yeah, d8uv
18:04:06 <sbp> he designed the Ghyll logo, don't forget
18:04:07 <BigJibby> BigJibby (~matt@ip4-113.eyrkonaeac03.dialup.ca.telus.com) has joined #swhack
18:04:55 <Morbus> jcowan and I had a recent discussion about that logo; I'd like a different one ;)
18:04:56 <shapr> Personally, I really like being unable to mix IO and pure code.
18:04:56 <shapr> I do also wish that IO were cut into pieces, it does too many things.
18:05:00 <shapr> But there are some solutions, including arrows, which are a generalization of monads.
18:05:01 <sbp> argh
18:05:04 <kpreid> shapr: what I was thinking of would allow mixing up under particular restrictions to keep the mess contained
18:05:10 <sbp> different how? it's pretty good
18:05:12 <shapr> Clean does that.
18:05:24 <sbp> d8uv's unhappy with it too; he said he's considered making a new one
18:05:26 <sbp> but I like it a lot
18:05:31 <Morbus> sbp: it doesn't "say" anything to mean. it's just an icon.
18:05:42 <sbp> well, what would you have it say?
18:05:56 <shapr> Clean uses linear variables to give you some of both worlds.
18:05:58 <Morbus> hey, someone already made the dagger seas http://autorealm.sourceforge.net/pics/maps/ag/Mia%20Duna.jpg
18:06:19 <shapr> You get only a single use for each, enforced via 'uniqueness types'.
18:06:27 <sbp> heh, compass roses
18:06:44 <kpreid> shapr: I don't think that's related at all...
18:07:06 <shapr> It seems so to me because that's a way to mix the two flavors of code under particular restrictions to keep the mess contained.
18:07:12 <shapr> What restrictions do you have in mind?
18:07:38 <shapr> How would it contain the mess?
18:07:40 <kpreid> any Haskell implementation builds an apparent pure system on top of an imperative environment
18:07:59 <Morbus> i like particular restrictions to keep the mess contained.
18:07:59 <Morbus> heh
18:07:59 <Morbus> i like http://www.nbos.com/products/mapper/catalogimages/FM7-sample-nazrain.jpg
18:08:27 <kpreid> the implementation gets to define primitives that actually operate imperatively but look functional to the code
18:08:27 <shapr> Actually, the IO monad is a black hole that cannot be implemented in Haskell.
18:08:31 <shapr> It's the trapdoor to the real world.
18:08:36 <kpreid> I didn't say *in* haskell
18:08:39 <kpreid> I said *of* haskell
18:08:40 <shapr> Oh, ok
18:08:45 <sbp> yeah, that's quite pretty
18:09:04 <kpreid> so, allow it to be done *in* haskell
18:09:38 <kpreid> if you have access to something that looks like (but might be more efficient than) an imperative interpreter of Haskell written in Haskell
18:10:03 <kpreid> then you can create sub-regions of your program which act lazy-functional but are using imperative operations to do their thing
18:10:19 <Morbus> i like too
18:10:22 <Morbus> http://www.nbos.com/products/mapper/catalogimages/SP1-sample1.png
18:10:32 <kpreid> say, network-distributed-computing or web access stuff or #include
18:10:33 <shapr> To me, that sounds like the wind-forward part of the IO monad.
18:10:52 <shapr> All prior imperative results are now pure.
18:11:04 <sbp> sounds like Stindersgrough
18:11:33 <shapr> .gc Stindersgrough
18:11:34 <kpreid> right, but you can't *choose* the imperative results purely
18:11:34 <phenny> Stindersgrough: 359
18:11:40 <shapr> choose them?
18:11:42 <shapr> Ich verstehe nicht.
18:11:45 <kpreid> shapr: like this:
18:12:02 <kpreid> (making up some notation)
18:12:58 <kpreid> prog = «get "http://example.net/a" ++ get "http://example.net/b"»
18:13:58 <kpreid> eval prog [("get", getOp :: IO String)] :: IO String
18:13:58 <shapr> How is that different from prog = get "http://example.net/a" >>= \a -> get "http://example.net/b" >>= \b -> a ++ b
18:14:04 <kpreid> because *it is lazy*
18:14:10 <kpreid> the «» is a quoted program
18:14:31 <kpreid> it is written in ordinary Haskell notation
18:14:34 <shapr> * shapr thinks about that
18:14:48 <kpreid> and it can be used as if the two web resources were *already* fetched - now pure, as you say
18:15:05 <kpreid> oh, the return type would be IO (Foo String)
18:15:13 <sbp> Morbus: go here: http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/getamap/
18:15:23 <sbp> then click on the big green button on the right
18:15:30 <kpreid> where Foo is something which you can turn into an IO operation to force lazy eval as needed
18:15:31 <sbp> then zoom in on some random coastline anywhere
18:15:33 <kpreid> wait, no
18:15:34 <Morbus> i'm color blind.
18:15:37 <shapr> I still don't see how this is different. Once you've fed a value into an IO computation, it doesn't actually happen. It only happens when you ask for it.
18:15:37 <Morbus> i see "moose"
18:15:48 <kpreid> IO (List (IO String)) or something like that
18:15:50 <sbp> until the zoom level you're at is the one *next* to the big plus
18:15:56 <sbp> click the giant moose then
18:15:58 <kpreid> shapr: but you have to write it all in monad notation
18:16:10 <shapr> Or do notation, but yes.
18:16:14 <Morbus> ok. i'm next to the big plkus looking at a coast.
18:16:29 <sbp> good. gimme a name of the town on the coast, couldya?
18:16:37 <Morbus> Eriff.
18:16:37 <sbp> (if any)
18:16:52 <Morbus> about 309m from the coast.
18:16:58 <shapr> kpreid: Anyway, if you like this kind of stuff, read my ArrowsIntroduction for the next issue of The Monad.Reader :-)
18:17:07 <shapr> Arrows are spiffier than monads.
18:17:09 <kpreid> so, for my #include example, you could run the parser inside the 'eval' and give it a primitive function that actually reads files
18:17:45 <sbp> hang on, it's being a git
18:17:56 <shapr> You can still do that now, that's just higher order functions.
18:17:56 <kpreid> then when you retrieve the results, you know it might have read files, but that's the *only* IO thing it did
18:17:56 <shapr> At least, as far I understand.
18:18:02 <kpreid> shapr: um
18:18:12 <sbp> anyway, the point is that I think OS style is pretty good
18:18:17 <kpreid> so tell me how to do an IO operation inside a Parsec parser, then
18:18:18 <sbp> it'd be nice to use the same symbols on the Ghyll map
18:18:36 <shapr> You lift the Parser into an IO action with liftIO or something similar.
18:19:13 <shapr> In that case, you don't have backtracking mixed with IO, the action only happens once a parser has consumed some input.
18:19:30 <kpreid> right, but I said #include
18:19:36 <kpreid> the parse can't *finish* until the IO has been done
18:19:44 <kpreid> because it won't know how to parse the rest of the source
18:19:55 <kpreid> so there is inevitably backtracking
18:19:57 <shapr> Yeah, you can do that. I wrote a Parsec parser that read xbm files I think, and it only knew how many chars to read once it had parsed the header.
18:20:27 <kpreid> uh
18:20:27 <shapr> That works just fine.
18:20:27 <kpreid> not the same at all
18:20:28 <kpreid> you already have the entire data available
18:20:28 <shapr> I'm really not trying to be dense :-)
18:20:29 <kpreid> not a filename unknown until you've partially read the file
18:20:40 <sbp> also I have no clue where you are. heh
18:20:48 <sbp> I think it's in Ayrshire, according to Google, but can't find it
18:20:57 <sbp> just wanted to check it was nicely representative
18:20:57 <kpreid> that is, you don't know what IO result you need available until the parse is partway done, and you can't finish the parse until you've done the IO
18:21:11 <shapr> The perl 6 implementation Pugs already does this, and it's written in Haskell.
18:21:18 <kpreid> huh
18:21:22 <shapr> Right, that really does work.
18:21:28 <kpreid> well, I may be missing something entirely
18:21:37 <shapr> Or I may be not understanding you.
18:21:50 <shapr> If you can write some code that demonstrates this, I promise I will understand you.
18:21:59 <kpreid> or maybe how i'm picturing a sort of back-and-forth turning inside-out could be done to do it
18:22:10 <shapr> Speaking of which, I have an interesting related observation that I wanted to discuss with John Cowan.
18:22:15 <kpreid> ow
18:23:04 <kpreid> I've done too much typing just now.
18:23:04 <shapr> RSI?
18:23:05 <kpreid> thanks for listening :)
18:23:05 <kpreid> ya
18:23:05 <Morbus> this flipping map thing is pissing me off.
18:23:05 <shapr> Sure, I'm definitely interested in your ideas. You obviously have a solid understanding of what you discuss, and that's far more than I get in most monad discussions.
18:23:14 <shapr> Anyway, I have some advice for RSI too.
18:23:28 <shapr> My left wrist blew out for six months recently.
18:23:35 <kpreid> monads were easy. arrows, on the other hand, I once looked at and completely failed to understand
18:23:36 <shapr> I had to switch to the right-hand-only dvorak layout.
18:23:38 <kpreid> * kpreid stops
18:23:55 <sbp> aha, I was looking in the wrong place
18:23:59 <shapr> http://www.haskell.org/tmrwiki/ArrowsIntroduction
18:24:03 <sbp> http://www.postcode-info.co.uk/56852-eriff-info.html
18:24:10 <shapr> That's the article I'm writing for the next TMR.
18:24:14 <shapr> Anyway, back to RSI.
18:24:17 <Morbus> maybe i can get crank to make one for us.
18:24:20 <Morbus> using CC.
18:24:26 <Morbus> nevermind.
18:24:52 <shapr> I discovered two primary problems for me. 1. Static positioning 2. Incorrect Use of Muscles / Joints
18:25:21 <kpreid> shapr: this is my main project now: http://www.eros-os.org/pipermail/e-lang/2004-December/010199.html then http://www.eros-os.org/pipermail/e-lang/2005-April/010563.html
18:25:37 <shapr> My solution was to purchase a kinesis keyboard, get a futon that I use in couch position with my keyboard on my lap, and to remap my kinesis in such a way that I only use my thumbs for chording.
18:25:52 <crschmidt> "chording" ?
18:25:53 <shapr> I call my keyboard layout "I am not a koala", and it is designed to prevent emacs pinky and related disorders.
18:27:08 <shapr> Human hands are designed to hold modifier keys with the thumb, and press other keys with the fingers. So I have moved Shift, Hyper, Meta, Alt, and all the cokebottle keys to the thumb grouping on the kinesis.
18:27:25 <kpreid> oho
18:27:39 <shapr> See the thumb groupings - http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg
18:27:56 <sbp> that's not coastline. that's a loch
18:28:14 <shapr> On the nifty side, I can now press C-M-H-S-Sh-BS with just my thumb.
18:28:56 <shapr> Another part of wrist-saving is ubiquitous automation. If you use emacs, learn hippie-expand now!
18:29:10 <shapr> Make a point of noticing any actions you perform regularly and scripting them!
18:29:41 <shapr> Also, work with me on my rudimentary design for a spoken programming language so your wrists can heal :-)
18:29:49 <kpreid> ha
18:30:02 <shapr> crschmidt: Does that answer your question?
18:30:13 <shapr> I have an older version of my kinesis layout online.
18:30:30 <shapr> It's a heavily modified dvorak layout.
18:30:32 <crschmidt> shapr: I'm not sure exactly, but you've provided a bunch of useful tidbits, and I'm a bit short on time to go look at the links right now ;)
18:30:53 <shapr> My emacs mappings are design to at least somewhat mimic Jef Raskin's Humane Interface ideas.
18:31:24 <shapr> You can find the useful elisp files under CategoryKeys on EmacsWiki.org, I strongly recommend DiskKey, KillKey, etc
18:31:48 <shapr> crschmidt: Bug me when you get time to read them, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
18:31:49 <jetx> jetx (~jetx@adsl-64-219-216-41.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) has joined #swhack
18:31:51 <kpreid> * kpreid does not use emacs
18:31:55 <shapr> What do you use?
18:31:56 <sbp> crschmidt is a vim user
18:32:06 <kpreid> * kpreid <- Apple curmugeon
18:32:11 <shapr> I would strongly encourage a programmable environment, especially if you're a programmer.
18:32:21 <sbp> I wrote my own editor
18:32:24 <sbp> but still tend to use nano
18:32:32 <sbp> real programmers use cat
18:33:04 <crschmidt> Most of my work tends to be copy pasting documents from other sources
18:33:04 <Morbus> sbp: http://cheshirehall.com/Verse/trident.map.png
18:33:05 <crschmidt> I don't do nearly as much coding as I wish I did
18:33:05 <shapr> emacs is currently the best thing I've seen, but it has some inescapable flaws so I'm slowly working on something better.
18:33:05 <Morbus> * Morbus chuckles.
18:33:05 <kpreid> right now my big problem is a lousy keyboard
18:33:07 <shapr> So get a real keyboard! Your wrists are worth it!
18:33:22 <kpreid> the new better one is off for repair, being permanently attached to a computer
18:33:25 <sbp> hmm, my connection's a bit jerky all of a studden
18:33:29 <shapr> Most importantly, do not take static postures. If you always type with your wrists at the same angle, you will wear off the tendon sheaths.
18:33:33 <sbp> her. stutterden
18:33:42 <kpreid> ooh
18:33:50 <kpreid> do they grow back?
18:33:54 <sbp> Morbus: heh, heh
18:34:00 <shapr> Yeah, but it takes a long time.
18:34:17 <kpreid> thanks for info
18:34:21 <shapr> It took me six months to be able to type without pain in my left hand, wrist, and elbow.
18:35:14 <kpreid> i am typing carefully
18:35:15 <kpreid> i shall now ignore the computer
18:35:15 <shapr> Another valuable tip, get exercise! Exercise has a bunch of facets that work against RSI.
18:35:16 <shapr> I could go into it in great detail, but I'd rather go exercise, my unicycle is calling me.
18:35:39 <sbp> enjoy
18:36:11 <shapr> But first, I must advertise my to-be-ready-on-Monday unicycle from sheer uni-geekiness - http://www.scannedinavian.com/2005-05-16.html
18:37:23 <sbp> that'll be $50 please
18:38:02 <shapr> yow!
18:38:04 <sbp> * sbp flicks through scannedinavian.com
18:38:25 <sbp> (don't worry, it's free when I mention it)
18:38:43 <sbp> Fermat's Last Margin?
18:38:48 <Ash> scamdenavian
18:39:03 <Jibbler2> Jibbler2 is now known as Jibbler
18:39:21 <shapr> What is it? A distributed decentralized wiki-based darcs-backed research paper annotation tool called Fermat's Last Margin.
18:39:36 <shapr> How does it work? In short, wget the pdf/ps, throw it into imagemagick, create wiki pages for the resulting page images, and save text annotations into the darcs repo. If your repo is http accessible, anyone can grab your per-page annotations, and you can grab theirs.
18:40:11 <shapr> Ash: scandalavian
18:46:28 <sbp> how do you make the annotations?
18:46:35 <sbp> that is, can you link them to image regions?
18:46:36 <Morbus> * Morbus grumbles, generally.
18:47:38 <BigJibby> BigJibby has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:48:11 <shapr> sbp: That was the original idea, but I realized everything will be simpler if you have a single text box with which to annotate an entire page.
18:48:13 <shapr> http://www.scannedinavian.org/RandomWiki/AnnotationMockup
18:48:59 <sbp> no annotations on that one?
18:49:01 <JibberJim> scanned in avian ? why would you want to scan in birds? is it not cruel to pin them to scanner and expose them to the light?
18:49:13 <sbp> you drug them first, Jim, I think
18:49:29 <shapr> Right, sex, drugs, quack and roll.
18:49:38 <Morbus> * Morbus guesses he'll just keep going on with wesnoth+inkscape in his free time.
18:49:38 <shapr> Aaanyway
18:49:45 <sbp> heh/groan
18:50:17 <sbp> Morbus: can't you just freehand draw it?
18:50:28 <sbp> I mean, the map can't change now
18:50:29 <shapr> I once made an irc joke about living in Sweden, but really on the Internet, that I freely mixed with implications of being a Linux/Penguin addict. I said I was a Scanned In Avian
18:50:31 <sbp> it can only be added to
18:50:36 <Morbus> and what after? i'll have to keep that piece of paper insanely pristine.
18:50:45 <shapr> It was sufficiently bizarre that I purchased the domain name.
18:50:56 <Morbus> and if it ever fucks up, then i'll have to redraw it, and it won't be AS perfect as entropy suggests i'm used to.
18:51:07 <sbp> er, I meant digitally freehand draw it
18:51:07 <sbp> just GIMP it up
18:51:28 <sbp> if what fucks up?
18:51:34 <Morbus> the paper. coffee stains, etc.
18:51:41 <Morbus> GIMP it? freehand? ahahahah.
18:51:41 <sbp> -> <sbp> er, I meant digitally freehand draw it <-
18:51:51 <Morbus> that requires talent.
18:51:52 <sbp> freehand as opposed to hex tiles
18:51:55 <Morbus> which is what i'm trying to remove from the equation.
18:51:59 <sbp> why?
18:52:08 <Morbus> because talent lies in one hand.
18:52:14 <Morbus> one hand that can die, hate me, etc.
18:52:14 <sbp> argh, this argument again
18:52:16 <Morbus> it's unreliable.
18:52:19 <Morbus> yes, that argument again!
18:52:21 <sbp> I think this is the root of your problem
18:52:27 <Morbus> I have come to /never/ rely on anyone.
18:52:28 <sbp> it's like saying you'll fly to the moon
18:52:30 <Morbus> I've been burnt far too many times.
18:52:35 <sbp> but only if everyone can make the spacecraft
18:52:48 <sbp> because you know, what if you get half way and all the crew members die
18:53:03
