00:16:42 <jcowan> jcowan (~jcowan@167.206.188.3) has joined #swhack
00:16:42 <Monty> hey jcowan
00:17:33 <jcowan> Ittywhonk, Monty
00:17:40 <Monty> didn't run shtoom on top 10 lines, or anything particularly weird in this software for small forward arrow (you see it..last line (linux)?
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00:27:21 <raxor> Monty, that doesn't make any sense at all.
00:27:25 <Monty> exuberance's gay bears has sex with particle accelerator's OpenBSD pterodactyl?
00:29:03 <jcowan> False.
00:29:46 <raxor> OpenBSD's gallimimus, Monty... sheeesh.
00:29:50 <Monty> Hrm. Let's assume that devilish awesome online configures omnipotent gambling pipes.
00:30:19 <raxor> * raxor is assuming
00:31:02 <jcowan> * jcowan is hrming.
00:32:34 <raxor> .gc "devilish awesome online"
00:32:36 <phenny> "devilish awesome online": 0
00:32:41 <raxor> .gc "devilish awesome"
00:32:43 <phenny> "devilish awesome": 9
00:32:49 <raxor> .gc "devilish awesome" online
00:32:51 <phenny> "devilish awesome" online: 2
00:32:57 <raxor> .g "devilish awesome" online
00:33:00 <phenny> "devilish awesome" online: http://www.eplasm.org/ideas/for/dates/
00:33:20 <raxor> phenny!
00:33:27 <raxor> That link is not at all safe!
00:34:34 <jcowan> Especially not in IE.
00:36:03 <kandinski> .acronym REPL
00:36:08 <kandinski> @acronym REPL
00:36:09 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @listcommands.
00:36:19 <jcowan> Read-Execute-Print Loop.
00:36:26 <supybot> kandinski: REPL could be Read-Eval-Print Loop, or Replace
00:36:34 <raxor> .acronym XML
00:37:00 <kandinski> thanks
00:37:03 <raxor> supybot, @acronym XML
00:37:05 <supybot> raxor: Error: "@acronym" is not a valid command.
00:37:23 <raxor> @acronym XML
00:37:24 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @listcommands.
00:37:27 <jcowan> The @ just triggers supybot; he doesn't like it if you're talking to him directly.
00:37:40 <supybot> raxor: XML could be eXtensible Markup Language
00:37:45 <kandinski> supybot, acronym XML
00:37:48 <raxor> ahh, I was trying to go around lambada-bot
00:38:02 <supybot> kandinski: XML could be eXtensible Markup Language
00:38:13 <raxor> thanks
00:38:16 <kandinski> great
00:38:28 <kandinski> I always forget which bot is which from one use to the next
00:39:23 <jcowan> Often I do too.
00:39:35 <raxor> I never remember which bot to impersonate
00:39:51 <raxor> err... imbotonate
00:40:15 <raxor> .gc imbotonate
00:40:18 <phenny> imbotonate: 0
00:40:24 <raxor> w00t!
00:40:54 <jcowan> "Impersonate" is still good.
00:41:10 <raxor> Is it?
00:41:13 <jcowan> "persona" = "theatrical mask (as used in Greek and Roman theatre)
00:41:15 <jcowan> "
00:41:26 <raxor> .ety impersonate
00:41:29 <phenny> impersonate: no etymology found
00:41:29 <jcowan> Bots have personas even if they are not really persons
00:42:07 <raxor> So is it past participal of roughly equivalent to "to assume the persona of"?
00:42:40 <jcowan> In effect.
00:44:29 <raxor> personare = to resound, to sing out loudly, to make (a place)
00:45:25 <jcowan> Because that's how actors had to speak when they were masked and about 2 inches high (apparently) to the audience.
00:45:28 <raxor> personatus -a -um /adj./ to wear a mask, to operate under a pretense
00:46:26 <ngd> ngd (~neil@82.152.170.120) has joined #swhack
00:46:30 <raxor> interesting that the meanings cross like that... literally "through sounding"
00:48:16 <raxor> "im" prefix is occasionally used as "not" or "beyond belief"
00:48:25 <jcowan> Right, but in this case it's "in".
00:48:29 <jcowan> er, English "in".
00:48:39 <jcowan> er, Latin "in" in the sense of English "in".
00:49:09 <raxor> oh
00:49:20 <raxor> I need to take latin again... this is too much fun
00:50:01 <raxor> @karma jcowan++
00:50:02 <lambdabot> jcowan++ has a karma of 0
00:50:02 <supybot> raxor: Error: TypeError: argument 2 to map() must support iteration
00:50:23 <raxor> supybot, karma++
00:50:30 <raxor> supybot, karma jcowan++
00:50:30 <supybot> raxor: Error: TypeError: argument 2 to map() must support iteration
00:50:43 <jcowan> Supybot's karma machine is broken.
00:50:48 <raxor> lambdabot, karma jcowan++
00:51:00 <raxor> lambdabot, @karma jcowan++
00:51:01 <lambdabot> jcowan++ has a karma of 0
00:51:10 <raxor> lambdabot, @karma help
00:51:11 <lambdabot> help has a karma of 0
00:51:15 <raxor> heh
00:51:25 <raxor> * raxor ducks for "blammo"
00:51:31 <jcowan> blam.......
00:51:33 <jcowan> .....................mo
00:52:57 <kpreid> kpreid has quit ()
00:54:28 <jcowan> Huh, scared kpreid away with that one, didn't I.
00:54:39 <raxor> quite...
00:54:58 <raxor> sometimes he is skittish though
00:55:53 <raxor> I actually have a SW question!
00:56:12 <raxor> In terms of inference engines that rely on OWL... is there a recommended tool?
00:56:27 <raxor> OWL lite is fine...
00:57:53 <raxor> Does redland handle inferences?
00:58:31 <raxor> Or only something like protege?
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01:19:45 <crschmidt> Redland does not.
01:20:00 <crschmidt> cwm can (I believe), and there's something called pychinko
01:20:05 <crschmidt> which does as well, I believe
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01:49:40 <raxor> thanks crschmidt!
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01:53:22 <[1]jeanniecool> [1]jeanniecool is now known as jeanniecool
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05:13:17 <bancus> .gc ass-lobster
05:13:20 <phenny> ass-lobster: 407
05:13:28 <bancus> .g ass-lobster
05:13:31 <phenny> ass-lobster: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/050301/480/paks10203011906&e=1
05:19:16 <AaronSw> .
05:19:16 <AaronSw> .
05:19:16 <AaronSw> .
05:19:18 <phenny> AaronSw: 28 Jun 21:54Z <Morbus> tell AaronSw if his stay at Ghyll is enjoyable, he should blogwhore it for me. ;)
05:19:20 <AaronSw> we'll see how long i last
05:23:58 <d8uv> d8uv has quit (Remote closed the connection)
05:31:35 <AaronSw> .thesaurus hook
05:31:38 <phenny> hook synonyms: angle, catch, clasp, crook, curve, grapnel, grapple, hasp, holder, link, lock, peg
05:32:12 <raxor> .w grapnel
05:32:15 <phenny> grapnel 1. a tool consisting of several hooks for grasping and holding
05:32:19 <phenny> grapnel 2. a light anchor for small boats
05:32:23 <AaronSw> .w hasp
05:32:25 <phenny> hasp 1. a fastener for a door or lid
05:32:27 <raxor> .ety grapnel
05:32:28 <phenny> hasp 2. secure or lock with a hasp
05:32:31 <phenny> grapnel: Middle English grapenel, from (assumed) Middle French grapinel, dim. of grapin, diminutive of grape hook -- more at GRAPE
05:32:53 <raxor> .ety hasp
05:32:56 <phenny> hasp: Middle English, alteration from Old English hæpse; akin to Middle High German haspe hasp
05:33:40 <raxor> .w hæspe
05:33:43 <phenny> I couldn't find hæspe in WordNet.
05:33:49 <raxor> .gc hæspe
05:33:52 <phenny> hæspe: 104
05:34:20 <raxor> .gc hæspe grapinel
05:34:23 <phenny> hæspe grapinel: 0
05:34:35 <raxor> .gc grapinel
05:34:37 <phenny> grapinel: 51
05:34:57 <raxor> .thesaurus lock
05:35:00 <phenny> lock synonyms: bar, bolt, bond, catch, clamp, clasp, clinch, connection, fastening, fixture, grapple, grip, hasp, hook, junction, latch, link, padlock
05:35:11 <raxor> .thesaurus world
05:35:14 <phenny> world synonyms: apple, cosmos, creation, earth, globe, heavenly body, macrocosm, microcosm, nature, sphere, star, terrene, universe
05:35:41 <raxor> hmmm, apple phenny?
05:35:48 <raxor> .w apple
05:36:00 <phenny> apple 1. fruit with red or yellow or green skin and sweet to tart crisp whitish flesh
05:36:03 <phenny> apple 2. native Eurasian tree widely cultivated in many varieties for its firm rounded edible fruits
05:36:12 <bancus> heh
05:36:16 <bancus> firm rounded edible fruits
05:36:18 <bancus> I like those
05:36:23 <raxor> heh
05:36:43 <raxor> phenny, tell sbp to run your thesaurus command on "world"
05:36:45 <phenny> raxor: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
05:36:50 <raxor> .thesaurus apple
05:36:52 <phenny> apple synonyms: angel, beloved, darling, dearest, fair-haired boy, favorite, honey, light of one's life, loved one, object of one's affections, pet, sweetheart, the pet, treasure
05:37:04 <raxor> lol
05:37:12 <raxor> * raxor falls on floor laughing
05:40:08 <raxor> phenny, tell sbp to also run your thesaurus command on "apple"
05:40:11 <phenny> raxor: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
05:40:41 <raxor> its a fair-haired boy world, eh pehnny?
05:40:48 <raxor> phenny, even...
05:41:28 <raxor> .thesaurus "the pet"
05:41:52 <raxor> .thesaurus the pet
05:42:13 <raxor> hi phenny
05:42:15 <phenny> Hi raxor.
05:42:27 <raxor> phenny, you are a clever bot.
05:53:19 <edsu> edsu has quit ("leaving")
06:12:46 <jeanniecool> Bored much, Raxor?
06:13:00 <raxor> eternally...
06:13:13 <raxor> I have been coding the same garbage all day...
06:13:19 <raxor> it really is garbage too...
06:14:54 <jeanniecool> Poor baby!
06:14:58 <jeanniecool> * jeanniecool hugs comfortingly
06:16:07 <raxor> :)
06:16:12 <raxor> aw thanks
06:16:41 <raxor> I am making good progress though... I should have this project finished in another half hour
06:18:05 <jeanniecool> Good boy.
06:18:08 <jeanniecool> * jeanniecool pats Raxor onna head
06:21:00 <raxor> oh and I am also very excited because I got a brand new shiny monitor!
06:21:23 <jeanniecool> * jeanniecool dutifully admires it
06:26:04 <raxor> You bored, jeannie?
06:27:21 <jeanniecool> nah
06:27:30 <jeanniecool> Not now that I've gotten to admire your monitor.
06:27:30 <raxor> oh, ok...
06:35:13 <jeanniecool> </sarcasm>
06:35:23 <jeanniecool> (for the moment, at least)
07:21:24 <deedra> {global notice} Hi all! In about an hour i'm going to be shutting down machines for the upcoming outage. Please see 'http://www.freenode.net/news.shtml' for more info, thanks!
07:21:31 <jeanniecool> jeanniecool is now known as _jeanniecool
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08:11:52 <deedra> {global notice} Hi all! In about 15 minutes, machines are going to be shut down for the upcoming outage. any further messages will be given in wallops, '/mode your_nick +w'
08:14:33 <deedra> {global notice} Erm, maybe i should clarify, that only 3 machines are being shut down. but, they are large machines.
08:25:43 <Md> [GlobalNotice] this server is being shut down
15:12:07 <loggy> loggy (sbp@66.9.179.68) has joined #swhack
15:12:07 <niven.freenode.net> topic is: <Morbus> thanks for destroying my ittywhonkuivalent. || <Morbus> HEY<! YOU GO BACK TO BEING MYSTEROIUS MR DELTGAB
15:12:07 <niven.freenode.net> Users on #swhack: loggy schepers edsu jessica Morbus jcowan +lisppaste2 DrBacchus kpreid bancus +sbp GabeW dmiles_akf CaptSolo Schmeez _jeanniecool themaximus Xavier +AaronSw uche_ ows _adam_gfx shapr +Monty +blogbot julie Jibbler jetx deusx dmiles_afk bear crschmidt ziz sbp`_ Jipp_ thelsdj kados deltab +supybot Ash +xover jsled +kandinski JibberJim Grantbow
15:12:24 <phenny> phenny (sbp@66.9.179.68) has joined #swhack
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15:12:48 <sbp> boing
15:12:48 <Monty> Hey sbp, crschmidt asked me to tell you: he's not logged into idlerpg [Wed Jun 29 15:45:32 BST 2005]
15:13:07 <Morbus> hey sbp. phenny is borked. doesn't noteserv anymore.
15:13:26 <sbp> phenny: tell Monty hi
15:13:26 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when monty is around.
15:13:29 <Monty> "devilish awesome online": 0 -> 2 or to book is that?
15:13:29 <phenny> Monty: 15:13Z <sbp> tell Monty hi
15:13:31 <Monty> wriggling FTP bus-shelter depends on Iomega fragrances and unsatisfying lamebrained corrosion.
15:13:32 <Monty> too busy as we (people using a 17-85 lens
15:13:35 <sbp> Morbus: hmm?
15:14:12 <Morbus> well, he was bork'd before.
15:14:21 <sbp> she. and okay...
15:14:27 <sbp> perhaps it's on the restart?
15:14:33 <schepers> schepers has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
15:14:55 <sbp> hmm, no, the reminders.db looks fine to me
15:15:13 <sbp> is the problem logged somewhere, Morb?
15:15:13 <kpreid> [11:02] <AaronSw> What's the best way to do simultaneous replaces in Python?
15:15:20 <kpreid> I don't know the answer, but a remark:
15:15:39 <sbp> simultaneous replaces? a loop and str.replace?
15:15:51 <kpreid> I have, so far, never seen any language/library offer a tool for that as straightforward as Perl's s///ge
15:16:07 <kpreid> sbp: won't work on his example
15:16:08 <AaronSw> that's not simultaneous, sbp
15:16:12 <sbp> phenny: tell crschmidt thanks
15:16:14 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when crschmidt is around.
15:16:17 <AaronSw> "MONKEY LOVE".sreplace({'MONKEY': 'LOVE', 'LOVE': 'ME'} == "LOVE ME"
15:16:42 <sbp> ah
15:16:54 <sbp> regexp if they're easy sequences, I suppose
15:17:10 <Morbus> sbp: aaronsw played ghyll.
15:17:11 <sbp> repl = {'MONKEY': 'LOVE', 'LOVE': 'ME'}
15:17:13 <AaronSw> seems like overkill, but it's what i'm doing
15:17:24 <AaronSw> string.join(map(re.escape, keys), "|")
15:17:27 <sbp> r_whatever = re.compile('(%s)' % '|'.join(repl.keys()))
15:17:31 <sbp> heh, etc.
15:17:32 <sbp> yeah
15:17:42 <sbp> string.join? map? grumble
15:17:53 <sbp> Morbus: yep, saw that
15:18:20 <AaronSw> swiped it from effbot
15:18:33 <sbp> .g effbot
15:18:35 <phenny> effbot: http://effbot.org/
15:21:56 <jcowan> Ittywhonk, all.
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16:13:56 <sneex> * sneex pokes Morbus
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16:14:05 <Morbus> uh huh.
16:14:08 <sneex> lol
16:14:41 <Morbus> i'm heading to lunch soon, so hurry up.
16:14:43 <Morbus> ;)
16:15:06 <sneex> 1.5beta1 Export hack -- how to force logged users to allow export?
16:15:16 <sneex> no anonymous exporting
16:15:32 <Morbus> not a clue. i'm not using 1.5 at the moment, and I've never fiddled with the export.
16:15:36 <Morbus> there is a #mediawiki though ;)
16:15:45 <sneex> they are duds =(
16:15:49 <sbp> he won't be using 1.5 until there is major mispeeling capability
16:16:04 <sneex> * sneex didnt say that =/
16:16:12 <sneex> Ill figure it out
16:16:17 <sneex> you go eat =)
16:16:17 <Morbus> sbp: well, probably sooner, actually. the changes from 1.4 to 1.5 required a 10+ hour downtime on wikipedia. I'd rather get it done as soon as possible then worry about a .4 to .6 upgrade.
16:16:33 <sbp> ah yes, that does sound like a good idea
16:16:42 <sneex> the installed was flawless, Morbus
16:16:51 <Morbus> apparently, there was an insane amount of schema changes between .4 and .5
16:16:55 <shapr> Has wikipedia considered a distributed setup?
16:16:59 <Morbus> sneex: yeah, that's an install. an upgrade is quite different :)
16:17:02 <sneex> =)
16:18:00 <sneex> I posted a FAQ change on meta so people can easily see the security chages needed
16:19:12 <sneex> * sneex still cant figure out ittywhonkuivalent =|
16:19:22 <Morbus> you'd have to be here for awhile.
16:22:29 <uche_> did any of you webloggers ever actually register with Technorati and "claim" yr blog?
16:22:40 <uche_> If so, did it improve searching?
16:22:53 <Morbus> nope.
16:23:02 <uche_> I'm constantly finding Copia cites that neither Technorati, Blogdigger or Feedster seem to see
16:23:08 <Morbus> nope, i didn't, not nope it didn
16:23:20 <Morbus> copia?
16:23:36 <uche_> .g copia ogbuji
16:23:39 <phenny> copia ogbuji: http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/
16:23:48 <Morbus> #4 in google for copia.
16:23:55 <uche_> Right now seems plain ol' Google bests them all
16:25:48 <Morbus> google hasn't been reliable for me in the "past 15 days" department.
16:25:56 <Morbus> it always brings up crap from months ago.
16:26:12 <uche_> true
16:26:16 <sneex> "Your search - ittywhonkuivalent - did not match any documents. "
16:26:20 <sneex> lo
16:26:33 <Morbus> sneex: give it a few weeks. we'll be in google for it :)
16:26:37 <uche_> it needs a date range, a la google groups search
16:26:58 <sneex> yeah =)
16:29:47 <crschmidt> I did, but I don't know why, other than I used to think technorati was worthwhile
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16:35:24 <sneex> Anyone here program SQL on UniData???
16:35:31 <sneex> :-D
16:42:28 <jcowan> jcowan (~jcowan@167.206.188.3) has joined #swhack
16:44:13 <uche_> crschmidt, yeah, my preference would be to have as little to do with them as possible
16:44:27 <uche_> I think bloggers should work out a decentralized search mechanism
16:45:14 <jcowan> * jcowan is concerned about how best to do instantiation.
16:45:21 <sbp> Atom-Search
16:45:27 <sbp> (and Atom-Search-API)
16:47:52 <sbp> I quite like Atom. it has thoroughly, thoroughly proven the "too many cookes..." adage
16:48:23 <sbp> uh oh, going all Ye Olde Moderne Inglish in spelling
16:48:23 <ows> ows has quit ("Leaving")
16:50:13 <sneex> Blarp!
16:50:26 <sbp> * sbp giues vp and |wappes his u and v keys
16:51:14 <sbp> this reminds me. I found this earlier:
16:51:17 <sbp> http://opensourceshakespeare.com/
16:51:31 <sbp> which is sort-of cool, and I'd been planning to do something along those lines until I found it...
16:52:45 <sbp> and this, which is awesome: [[[
16:52:48 <sbp> We join Foster in graduate school, where he discovers a funeral elegy signed by a "W.S." and printed by Shakespeare's stationer. Certain phrases in it betray a knowledge of Shakespeare's later plays.
16:52:54 <sbp> Foster writes up his findings and submits a manuscript to Oxford University Press for publication, which ends up being chewed up and spit out by the anonymous expert reader hired to evaluate it. Internal evidence alone, the reader claims, cannot establish authorship: There must be evidence outside the text.
16:52:59 <sbp> Foster responds by analyzing the reader's letter, discovering his identity and writing him a pleasant note asking him to reconsider his opinion.
16:53:03 <sbp> ]]] - http://dir.salon.com/books/review/2000/11/02/foster/index.html
16:55:47 <sbp> (Foster later conceded on the elegy, though)
16:56:29 <sbp> (and still hasn't published his Shaxicon. been thinking about emailing him)
16:56:48 <sbp> in an old email post he says he just gives it out to whoever mails him since he's had a lot of correspondance
16:57:00 <sbp> this was back when he first published his findings
16:57:16 <sbp> then in a later email he says that he's taken a year off of work unpaid to finish the database
16:57:31 <sbp> ah, here: http://www.shaksper.net/archives/1998/0111.html
16:57:48 <sbp> then a while later, David Kathman says that Foster is still trying to complete it--that being in 2002 or so
16:58:18 <sbp> so someone tried to do an open version of it online, but I doubt it's anywhere near the same quality if Foster's been working on it that damn long
16:59:03 <sbp> I read something that suggested that Foster's input it lemmatised, which would be pretty neat (though wouldn't affect a rare word count all that much, one would assume)
16:59:10 <sbp> s/input it/input is/
16:59:47 <sbp> the open version: http://www.gabrielegan.com/shaxican/
17:00:04 <sneex> sneex has left #swhack
17:02:09 <sbp> supervise keeps giving me a lock error when I try to restart loggy
17:02:16 <sbp> anyone got any idea why?
17:02:47 <sbp> sbp@manxome:~/tools/loggy-supervise$ make
17:02:48 <sbp> supervise /home/sbp/tools/loggy-supervise
17:02:48 <sbp> supervise: fatal: unable to acquire /home/sbp/tools/loggy-supervise/supervise/lock: temporary failure
17:02:48 <sbp> make: *** [runloggy] Error 111
17:03:08 <jcowan> Because it's a dpb program?
17:03:11 <sbp> but after running it manually once it seems to release it
17:03:16 <sbp> dpb?
17:04:03 <sbp> * sbp tries http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=DPB&Find=Find
17:04:04 <jcowan> Bernstein.
17:04:23 <sbp> oh. djb
17:04:29 <sbp> well, surely it should be perfect? :-)
17:05:37 <shapr> speaking of which, I like his im2000 idea.
17:05:58 <jcowan> Sorry, yes, got him mixed up with DePosit Byte.
17:06:22 <deusx> * deusx waves, vaguely.
17:07:11 <sbp> yo deusx
17:07:27 <deusx> Yo ho ho
17:07:33 <sbp> shapr: why do you like it?
17:07:44 <sbp> * sbp hands deusx his bottle of rum
17:07:58 <jcowan> I like Rick's denunciation of djb.
17:08:15 <sbp> .gc "Rick Moen is an idiot"
17:08:17 <phenny> "Rick Moen is an idiot": 17
17:10:49 <JibberJim> * JibberJim turns on his first mac
17:11:12 <JibberJim> it's playing me music!
17:11:42 <sbp> oho: "Bernstein's further assertion that copyright law also entitles you to modify code has been convincingly disputed by John Cowan." - http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=warez
17:12:09 <JibberJim> WTF's an Apple ID? oh well I don't want one of those
17:12:32 <kpreid> JibberJim: Apple's common account-on-their-web-site
17:12:38 <JibberJim> Now it's asking highly personal information, and not giving me the chance to skip it!
17:12:40 <JibberJim> WTF?
17:12:42 <kpreid> also tied to .Mac services, buying music from iTunes...
17:12:46 <kpreid> JibberJim: press Cmd-Q
17:12:51 <kpreid> it'll let you skip
17:13:41 <sbp> "Why on $PLANET would he do that?" - http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/dan-brandishing-legal-threats
17:13:49 <deusx> The happy shiny Apple Registration Process loves you. Be not afraid.
17:14:25 <JibberJim> ah, thanks kpreid!
17:15:54 <JibberJim> Bad Mac-OS, it already knows I'm in British regional settings,and it's given me a US date!
17:18:56 <MorbusIff> MorbusIff (~morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
17:18:58 <sbp> perhaps they know something we don't
17:19:27 <Morbus> Morbus has quit (Nick collision from services.)
17:19:30 <MorbusIff> MorbusIff is now known as Morbus
17:19:32 <Morbus> ls -al
17:19:34 <Morbus> heh
17:19:51 <sbp> Morbus jcowan bjoern_ hhg schepers Eimi +phenny +loggy edsu jessica +lisppaste2 DrBacchus kpreid bancus +blogbot julie Jibbler jetx deusx dmiles_afk bear crschmidt ziz sbp`_ Jipp_ kados deltab +supybot Ash +xover jsled +kandinski JibberJim Grantbow +Monty shapr _adam_gfx uche_ AaronSw Xavier themaximus _jeanniecool Schmeez CaptSolo dmiles_akf GabeW sbp
17:19:51 <Monty> L4:
17:20:06 <kpreid> * kpreid glares
17:20:12 <deusx> chown -R deusx *
17:20:16 <sbp> kpreid: sizes and modification dates unknown, sorry
17:20:20 <Morbus> just received email:
17:20:22 <Morbus> "you are a joke why do i care you need areal life choose america
17:20:22 <Morbus> "
17:20:22 <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. I'm going to do this fundraiser announcement today, and then once more late tomorrow. As of today, about 440 people have donated to the PDPC fundraiser. We need 135. Freenode has 20,000+ users. If you haven't donated, please help us out today! PDPC's fiscal year ends, in Houston, TX, USA, in about a day and a half.
17:20:23 <Morbus> that's it.
17:20:27 <jcowan> * jcowan 's tab turns blue!
17:20:42 <Morbus> sudden storm here. lost power.
17:20:53 <deusx> Mine turn a slight orange and bleep at me in Colloquy
17:20:56 <sbp> that may be the best email ever
17:21:05 <lilo> [Global Notice] You don't have to donate to PDPC (the parent org of freenode) to use the network. But please help out. Thank you! http://freenode.net/news.shtml
17:21:54 <Morbus> mygod.
17:21:57 <Morbus> lilo, shut the frell up.
17:22:07 <Morbus> * Morbus waits for the kick.
17:22:12 <uche_> just pay the piper, Morbus
17:22:16 <jcowan> SEND + MORE = MONEY.
17:22:24 <uche_> Or he'll pipe all day long
17:22:35 <Morbus> uche_: there's always next year
17:22:38 <uche_> * uche_ knows the phenomenon from public radio/PBS
17:22:42 <Morbus> the end of the fiscal year just means the beginning of a new drive
17:22:55 <sbp> .g Freenode tote bag
17:22:57 <phenny> Freenode tote bag: http://twistedmatrix.com/users/moshez/pycon.log.txt
17:23:00 <Morbus> ahahah
17:24:31 <sbp> so, are you all going to stick around when lilo's auth plan is put into place?
17:24:57 <uche_> dunno
17:25:21 <jcowan> sbp: pointer?
17:25:23 <uche_> I might ask Edd if I can move #4suite to his Gnomehack server
17:25:33 <deusx> Uh oh, now what's lilo doing?
17:26:09 <sbp> jcowan: I don't think there's a URI for it yet, but the plan is well known across Freenode. the basic idea to to migrate services (ChanServ, NickServ, presumably) to HTTP and have all login etc. done through a website
17:26:45 <uche_> To be fair, a lot of folks have been discussing tool solutions
17:26:46 <Morbus> auth plan? what the hell is that?
17:26:50 <JibberJim> hmm safari doesn't seem to have a menu for disabling flash...
17:27:02 <edsu> crikey that sounds odd
17:27:08 <uche_> I already use an X-Chat module for feeding NickServ its cookies
17:27:09 <Morbus> * Morbus scratches head.
17:27:10 <Morbus> why?
17:27:28 <sbp> I don't know. but they're predicting they may lose 2/3 of the users from it
17:27:28 <Morbus> to justify the fund drive?
17:27:34 <deusx> Mmm... 4Suite. I just kicked a libxml/libxslt addiction in favor of 4Suite
17:27:45 <sbp> last thing I got was that nobody's interested in programming it though
17:27:56 <Morbus> that doesn't make any sense.
17:28:00 <Morbus> who thought it was a great idea then?
17:28:06 <Morbus> and if they're losing 2/3rds, why do it at all?
17:28:13 <sbp> I don't know what the justification is
17:28:25 <Morbus> are they trying to cut the need to fund drive by removing the user cost entirely?
17:29:25 <sbp> aha
17:29:26 <sbp> http://partiallystapled.com/wiki/index.php/FreenodeRegistry
17:29:36 <Ash> i think freenode should become subscription only
17:29:38 <Ash> like HBO
17:29:40 <Ash> that will kill it for sure
17:31:01 <shapr> I want p2p chat.
17:31:02 <shapr> No servers.
17:31:03 <sbp> http://partiallystapled.com/wiki/index.php/FreenodeRegistryDiscussions#lilo_intro_lecture seems to be an attempt at rationale to some extent
17:31:44 <Morbus> my god, that's insane.
17:32:06 <Morbus> i think he's got the insanely wrong justification for things.
17:33:22 <Morbus> * Morbus sputters into himself.
17:33:59 <uche_> deusx, good for you
17:34:02 <shapr> sbp: I like im2000 because I think it's a good economic answer to spam - http://www.scannedinavian.org/~shae/antispamserver.html
17:34:24 <shapr> I thought up something much like im2000 independently.
17:34:34 <sbp> Morbus: it'll probably destroy every large channel we're on if implemented, merely over the politics of it if not the technology
17:34:55 <Morbus> i dunno. irc feels "low tech" to me, because, well, it is.
17:35:01 <Morbus> if i want high tech chatting, i'll go use groove or something.
17:35:10 <Morbus> he wants to make irc high tech and integrated.
17:35:43 <sbp> IRC's marginally too crufty because it's old
17:35:44 <shapr> I like SILC
17:35:57 <sbp> so it could stand with being less high tech even
17:35:58 <shapr> SILCnet is like irc done right.
17:36:03 <sbp> if cruft == tech
17:36:07 <Morbus> how is irc done wrong?
17:36:16 <sbp> (unless cruft != tech, for you perlers)
17:36:30 <sbp> wrong? there's just a lot of crufty status codes and whatnot
17:36:35 <Morbus> cruft is anything less than code shui.
17:36:42 <sbp> I'd get rid of the username thing too
17:36:52 <sbp> nick@hostname should do
17:37:09 <sbp> ooh, nice definition
17:37:12 <shapr> irc is done wrong: no charset specified, limited to 512 chars per message, easily netsplit, no encryption available, only one message type
17:37:25 <sbp> ooh, charset's a big one. yeah
17:37:32 <Morbus> that's not wrong. that's lovingly endeared.
17:37:52 <Morbus> 512 chars, for example, gives other people time to interject.
17:37:55 <shapr> SILC has UTF-8, mime messages, netsplit resistant hybrid ring/star topology, and is always encrypted.
17:37:55 <sbp> Don'tWorryBeCrappy
17:37:57 <Morbus> it quickens the conversation.
17:38:03 <Ash> irc is old school
17:38:08 <Ash> and is awesome
17:38:13 <Morbus> encryption only comes into play if you have something to protect.
17:38:14 <shapr> I started using irc in 1989.
17:38:15 <JibberJim> it is indeed!
17:38:17 <Morbus> there is nothing to protect in #swhack
17:38:33 <Ash> <shapr> i am more |33+ th4n u guyZ
17:38:34 <JibberJim> we should encrypt swhack, but leave the logs open!
17:38:34 <Morbus> and what other message types do I need?
17:38:39 <sbp> encryption is silly
17:38:40 <Morbus> it sounds like you're adding features, not fixing brokeness.
17:38:40 <shapr> Ash: No, I'm just wrinkled =)
17:38:45 <Ash> Heh heh
17:39:03 <shapr> Morbus: ever tried to transfer a file over irc? Or wanted to irc-based pair programming?
17:39:08 <sbp> oh, CTCP is a bit naff
17:39:12 <Morbus> nope, actually.
17:39:20 <Morbus> transferring files over irc is transferring them through email.
17:39:21 <Morbus> a hack.
17:39:31 <JibberJim> shapr, why would you want to do those things over IRC?
17:39:36 <Morbus> *like
17:39:46 <jcowan> * jcowan tried to redesign IRC once using almost-stateless servers.
17:40:00 <Morbus> and if i want true pair programming, i'll go use that thing that sbp and d8uv use.
17:40:09 <shapr> JibberJim: Because many of the OSS projects that I coordinate or staff are based around an irc channel, so going outside that medium is difficult.
17:40:16 <sbp> mmm... MoonEdit
17:40:22 <shapr> SubEthaEdit?
17:40:27 <Morbus> yeah, that one
17:40:27 <sbp> Chalk!
17:40:28 <_adam_gfx> pr using something like VNC to share screens/xfer files
17:40:34 <jcowan> Anyone running BSD here other than OS X?
17:40:40 <Ash> jcowan, yeah
17:40:46 <Morbus> never used it, cos quite frankly, i could spend 50 hours on one line of code before i'd feel it was beautiful enough to show someone else.
17:40:51 <shapr> Virtual pair programming requires an out-of-band communication mechanism, text chat and text programming don't mix well.
17:40:59 <Morbus> and i'm insatiably anal about how code looks. pair programming with me would be suicide incudinc.
17:41:03 <Morbus> inducing.
17:41:07 <crschmidt> That's what # comments are for
17:41:10 <jcowan> Ash, could you try "rmdir /" as root? I'm serious -- I want to know what error you get.
17:41:17 <Ash> heh.
17:41:25 <Ash> well it'll error saying the directory is full
17:41:28 <Ash> (or should!)
17:41:29 <jcowan> Darwin apparently returns the wrong error code.
17:41:36 <Ash> that's interesting
17:41:38 <sbp> we developed an excellent set of editing conventions for working with real time collaborative editors
17:41:49 <Morbus> its called the quote deelay
17:41:51 <Morbus> [[[
17:41:53 <Morbus> don't fuck with it.
17:41:55 <Morbus> ]]]
17:42:04 <sbp> heh
17:42:10 <sbp> except you have to comment it
17:42:10 <jcowan> blammo
17:42:11 <sbp> # [[[
17:42:14 <sbp> # lalala
17:42:15 <sbp> # ]]]
17:42:23 <Morbus> oh, in moonpie? or edit.
17:42:27 <Morbus> whatever its called.
17:42:32 <crschmidt> Ash: well, Debian Linux says "Device or resource busy"
17:42:34 <shapr> Anyway, I'd much rather have something like Self's gorgeous collaborative interface.
17:42:35 <Ash> wow, lilo is crazy
17:42:37 <sbp> don't have to, *have* to
17:42:40 <Ash> crschmidt: nice
17:42:49 <sbp> just saying it's a good convention not to leave broken code lying about
17:43:34 <shapr> Have you ever used Self?
17:43:49 <jcowan> I've played with it on a random Sun left lying about.
17:43:50 <Ash> <sbp> there is no Self, PYTHON 4EVAR
17:44:06 <crschmidt> python has self
17:44:13 <crschmidt> it's the first argument in methods of objects, no?
17:44:14 <crschmidt> ;)
17:44:18 <shapr> jcowan: Did you get to try collaborating?
17:44:27 <sbp> I prefer _ really
17:44:35 <jcowan> shapr: no.
17:44:41 <sbp> I just use self because it's standard practice
17:44:43 <jcowan> But I was doing peer programming as long ago as 1974.
17:44:50 <shapr> Neat, I was three years old then.
17:44:50 <thelsdj> thelsdj (~thelsdj@24-117-42-27.cpe.cableone.net) has joined #swhack
17:44:51 <jcowan> (We only had one computer between us.)
17:45:23 <crschmidt> I wasn't born for another decade
17:45:41 <jcowan> Ash: any luck?
17:45:43 <Morbus> i was still a frog back then.
17:45:44 <crschmidt> (Sorry. Every now and then I have to make the greybeards feel old.)
17:45:54 <Ash> jcowan: I just realized I can't hit my home freebsd box right now, sorry
17:45:59 <jcowan> Okay.
17:46:12 <Ash> (and my other freebsd machine is being shipped to a colo)
17:46:12 <Ash> heh
17:46:17 <Ash> jcowan: ask #freebsd
17:46:20 <sbp> trundle
17:46:39 <shapr> * shapr looks for a screenshot of collaborative Self dev
17:46:39 <crschmidt> jcowan: so what's the expected error?
17:46:52 <jcowan> Either EBUSY or success (if / is in fact empty)
17:46:57 <shapr> Aha, here it is - http://research.sun.com/ics/pics/overview.GIF
17:47:21 <jcowan> Can Squeak do that at all?
17:47:26 <Ash> it looks like squeak
17:47:26 <Ash> heh
17:47:35 <sbp> the double hash thing is so annoying
17:47:43 <Ash> sbp: yes
17:47:44 <Ash> it is
17:47:45 <shapr> I know Squeak had the 'Nebraska' project that aimed to duplicate that.
17:48:05 <shapr> I could never get it to work though.
17:48:19 <shapr> (but I don't know much about Smalltalk or Squeak)
17:48:28 <Ash> it seems like you should be able to do that in squeak
17:48:59 <shapr> There's a version of Self that runs on Linux - http://gliebe.de/self/index.html
17:49:11 <thelsdj> thelsdj has quit (Client Quit)
17:49:14 <shapr> It doesn't have the really cool tech though, no poly-inline caching, etc
17:56:51 <Morbus> my god. Twiki has the worst syntax ever.
17:57:16 <sbp> you should set up the Code Shui Awards, Morbus
17:57:32 <sbp> and give Twiki's wiki syntax the award for least Code Shui
17:58:15 <Morbus> it's obscene. " 9" to start a numbered list.
17:58:16 <Morbus> huh
17:58:17 <Morbus> ?!
17:58:25 <Morbus> or ----+ for a heading.
17:58:30 <Morbus> where the number of +'s is the length.
17:58:35 <Morbus> but, no, no, not ----++
17:58:38 <Morbus> ---++
17:58:45 <sbp> hehe
17:58:45 <Morbus> you have to remember to flip bits, not just add them.
17:58:48 <Morbus> insna.e
17:58:59 <bear> --- is the marker for a header - the number of +'s correspond to H1 H2 ....
17:59:05 <shapr> screwy
17:59:13 <Morbus> bear: so, what ---++++ is supposed to be h4?
17:59:17 <bear> yes
17:59:25 <sbp> why does ----+ work, then?
17:59:27 <Morbus> ah, right, my bad.
17:59:28 <Morbus> it doesn't.
17:59:31 <sbp> ah
17:59:35 <Morbus> but still.
17:59:39 <Morbus> <g>
17:59:42 <bear> <space><space><space>9 is a numbered list of one level
17:59:56 <Morbus> bear: is it "---++" or "---++ "
17:59:59 <crschmidt> All wiki syntax sucks
18:00:11 <shapr> crschmidt: kwid is worth checking out
18:00:11 <bear> the extra space at then I don't think is important
18:00:19 <shapr> also YAML
18:00:23 <Morbus> well, do you know if it converts to <h1> Word</h1>?
18:00:28 <Morbus> that bugs me, if it does.
18:00:44 <bear> IIRC it does - it's very perl regex'ish
18:01:13 <deusx> I liked TWiki for some of the functional stuff it has, but yeah, its wikitext is teh ass
18:01:24 <Morbus> it's very perl regex'ish?
18:01:29 <Morbus> what the hell is that supposed to mean?
18:01:35 <Morbus> it's not the fault of perl regex's.
18:01:37 <deusx> And it's not nicely abstracted out at all, splattered throughout various modules
18:01:40 <Morbus> its the fault of idiot regexp coders.
18:02:09 <Morbus> deusx: the code for Mediawiki isn't much better, honestly, but it's a much better program, IMO.
18:02:27 <deusx> That's what's kept me shying away from Mediawiki... it looks great, but I've heard that the code is horrendous
18:02:28 <bear> Morbus, true - my perl bias showed there a bit ;)
18:02:47 <Morbus> deusx: thankfully, i've not had to touch the code of it
18:02:55 <deusx> I've been leaning toward either KWiki or MoinMoin, with an occasional nihilistic streak to just go back to UseMod
18:03:00 <jcowan> sbp: fuggedaboudit, now that David Durand's thesis is offline.
18:03:09 <sbp> bear: Morbus is a perl programmer
18:03:10 <Morbus> i don't like kwiki too much.
18:03:14 <sbp> jcowan: oh, darn. not even in w.a.o?
18:03:15 <deusx> And then there's a project here at work that might just have to make do with ASPWiki (in classic ASP)
18:03:28 <shapr> Who's David Durand?
18:03:28 <jcowan> sbp: does w.a.o preserve PDFs?
18:03:34 <bear> sbp: ahhh - thanks for the info nugget
18:03:51 <sbp> hmm. don't think I've ever tried to recover a PDF from it
18:03:53 <sbp> might do
18:03:56 <deusx> KWiki seems kinda nifty, although it does grind on the CPAN a bit before being ready to install
18:03:58 <jcowan> shapr: DD is the Great Man of distributed sequence editing.
18:04:07 <shapr> Oh, interesting.
18:04:18 <sbp> you may as well try though. what was the URI?
18:04:23 <crschmidt> I think I read a good chunk of the thesis jcowan linked me to
18:04:25 <deusx> There seem to be some strange reinvented "frameworks" called Spoon and Spork or something that Kwiki drags in
18:04:29 <bear> deusx, yes - KWiki does require most of CPAN it seems
18:04:42 <shapr> This is David Durand? - http://cs-people.bu.edu/dgd/professional.html
18:04:58 <jcowan> Yes.
18:05:09 <shapr> His thesis appears to be online.
18:05:26 <deusx> I keep getting tempted to whip up a quick Markdown wiki with a simple extension hook
18:05:38 <Morbus> fucking phone.
18:05:40 <jcowan> Coolio, it is! Thanks.
18:05:56 <bear> * bear would shower deusx in gifts if he did that
18:05:56 <kpreid> * kpreid amuses himself by using "ln -fish"
18:06:39 <sbp> ooh
18:06:44 <sbp> that's almost as good as Morbus's ducks
18:06:48 <shapr> jcowan: Hey, you want to write something about Joy and Haskell for a Haskell wikizine?
18:07:01 <deusx> Like, all Markdown syntax, plus maybe a %SOMEKEYWORD{ ... }% convention for extension modules to register as the SOMEKEYWORD and process inside the { ... }
18:07:04 <kpreid> ducks?
18:07:11 <deusx> And wiki-word links. And that's it.
18:07:14 <sbp> ln: invalid option -- h
18:07:19 <sbp> kpreid: du -cks
18:07:26 <kpreid> ah
18:07:30 <kpreid> [[[
18:07:33 <kpreid> -h If the target_file or target_dir is a symbolic link, do not follow
18:07:33 <kpreid> it. This is most useful with the -f option, to replace a symlink
18:07:34 <kpreid> which may point to a directory.
18:07:34 <kpreid> ]]]
18:07:43 <sbp> weird. what system? Darwin?
18:07:46 <jcowan> shapr: What do they have in common other than both being functional?
18:07:54 <kpreid> sbp: yes,
18:07:55 <sbp> $ ln --version
18:07:55 <sbp> ln (coreutils) 5.2.1
18:07:58 <sbp> ah
18:08:03 <shapr> good question.
18:08:10 <kpreid> " -n Same as -h, for compatibility with other ln implementations."
18:08:14 <shapr> I think there is some sort of connection though.
18:08:21 <shapr> Nothing I can pin down, sadly.
18:08:23 <sbp> Gone Fis'n
18:08:28 <Ash> hm, I really like this self thing
18:08:33 <sbp> Fis'n', even
18:08:39 <Ash> looks nifty
18:08:51 <Ash> should make this into a mac app
18:08:57 <shapr> Ash: for extra credit, what's the connection between JavaScript and Self?
18:09:16 <Ash> shapr: Oh, I'd heard of a connection there before; what is it?
18:09:53 <deusx> Isn't it that Brendan had a yen for Self, so he made JS prototype-OO?
18:10:27 <jcowan> * jcowan is still trying to figure out how to do instantiation in Celebes Kalossi, but is so far defeated.
18:10:51 <shapr> Aw c'mon, you have to try to find it yourself first.
18:10:51 <shapr> Google can probably tell you quite easily.
18:11:11 <Ash> (At the time I had no idea what Self was, so I missed that part I suspect)
18:11:24 <shapr> jcowan: I think it has something to do with a very small number of moving parts.
18:11:48 <Ash> heh heh
18:11:49 <Morbus> i hate kwiki because it's TOO plugginable, requires a shell to install, and uses Template::Toolkit which is like 20 megs of modules and a XS interpreter. FOR A WIKI.
18:11:53 <Morbus> I'm insulted on basic principle.
18:12:08 <Morbus> *XS module, not intepreter.
18:12:13 <jcowan> The current CK design still has the types and behaviors, but I can't see how to sensibly instantiate objects.
18:12:21 <JibberJim> hmm, how annoying...
18:12:40 <jcowan> I'm almost tempted to go back to objects and traits instead, unless I can find a way out.
18:12:44 <Ash> should make a wiki based on self
18:12:46 <Ash> obviously
18:12:47 <JibberJim> how come opening up a terminal and going sshd isn't enough to get ssh working on the shiny new mac, why do I have to find some strange config place...
18:13:15 <Morbus> ssh should already work, i thought.
18:13:21 <crschmidt> No, you have to turn it on in Sharing
18:13:23 <Morbus> there should be a "allow logins" thing in your Network system pref.
18:13:24 <Ash> JavaScript syntax is similar to that of the Java programming language. It also uses elements from the Awk and Perl scripting languages, and its object-based nature can be attributed to the object prototype system used in the Self language.
18:13:28 <Ash> heh
18:13:29 <Morbus> crschmidt: yeah, that's what i mean.
18:13:31 <shapr> Ash: tadah!
18:13:32 <jcowan> blammo
18:13:35 <Morbus> it's in there, configured, just gotta be turned on.
18:13:37 <crschmidt> Morbus: Right. He's asking why he has to do that.
18:13:53 <jcowan> On principle you don't want consumer boxen to run servers by default.
18:13:56 <Morbus> well, there should be no reason why, of course. what does sshd give you?
18:14:08 <sbp> an ssh daemon
18:14:19 <shapr> jcowan: Is the CK design online?
18:14:28 <Morbus> * Morbus kicks sbp.
18:14:29 <jcowan> In the blog, though not so named there.
18:14:32 <sbp> :-)
18:14:32 <shapr> ah
18:14:34 <Morbus> what error, i meant.
18:14:37 <jcowan> So BIND gives you a bin daemon?
18:14:49 <Morbus> no, the capital letters mean something different.
18:14:54 <Morbus> * Morbus ducks.
18:14:58 <jcowan> Okay, a BIN daemon, then.
18:15:02 <sbp> Daemon
18:15:09 <Morbus> no, no, you can't use the same pattern or mnemonic with capital letters.
18:15:09 <shapr> That's why you were reading about traits then.
18:15:10 <Morbus> only lowercase.
18:15:14 <jcowan> Yes.
18:15:15 <Morbus> proftpd, fingerd, tcpd, etc.
18:15:17 <crschmid1> crschmid1 (~crschmidt@athena.crschmidt.net) has joined #swhack
18:15:25 <Morbus> BIND is special. cos its capitals.
18:15:31 <jcowan> lambdabot: acronym BIND
18:15:35 <sbp> kprei daemon
18:15:42 <Morbus> who said anything about it being an acronym?
18:15:59 <lambdabot> lambdabot (~lambdabot@manzano.cse.unsw.EDU.AU) has joined #swhack
18:16:11 <shapr> @foldoc bind
18:16:12 <supybot> shapr: Error: "foldoc" is not a valid command.
18:16:14 <lambdabot> *** "bind" foldoc "The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (27 SEP
18:16:14 <lambdabot> 03)"
18:16:14 <lambdabot> BIND
18:16:14 <lambdabot>
18:16:14 <lambdabot> {Berkeley Internet Name Domain}
18:16:14 <lambdabot>
18:16:19 <Morbus> oh, i guess it is.
18:16:33 <sbp> shapr: could you possibly set it to use a different prefix in here?
18:16:36 <jcowan> But you're right that the D doesn't mean daemon or Daemon.
18:16:52 <jcowan> Supy seems to be malfing pretty often.
18:16:58 <shapr> sbp: probably, but lambdabot had the @prefix long before supybot.
18:17:01 <shapr> * shapr swears at jemfinch
18:17:17 <shapr> Anyway, I'll see what I can do.
18:17:22 <sbp> look, we all know supybot is broken beyond believable levels
18:17:30 <sbp> let's just cope with it and find ways round it and move on :-)
18:17:40 <Ash> stabbybot
18:17:54 <shapr> You can also use lambdabot: @command
18:18:09 <sbp> I should probably just survey which features supybot has that phenny doesn't, merge them in, and have supybot be removed
18:18:12 <shapr> Oh, lambdabot is in an ICFP paper :-)
18:18:41 <shapr> http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/papers/SC05.html
18:19:02 <shapr> Is phenny a supybot instance?
18:19:26 <crschmid1> No
18:19:28 <bear> phenny is based on another irc backend
18:19:30 <Morbus> why don't we not let supybot be here?
18:19:33 <crschmid1> ircbot.py
18:19:34 <crschmid1> but only slightly
18:19:46 <jcowan> Morbus: we need at least google fight.
18:19:52 <sbp> link to http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/db/staff/info/dons.html on http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/contact.html is borken
18:20:27 <kpreid> JibberJim: also, sshd is normally run from inetd
18:20:43 <sbp> crschmid1: only slightly?
18:20:56 <shapr> sbp: Thanks, I'll tell dons.
18:21:25 <crschmid1> sbp: well, most of the code that phenny has - all the features - is Phenny specific
18:21:48 <sbp> so is ircbot.py, no?
18:21:52 <crschmid1> The framework isn't really a big chunk of the code compared to that. At least, not from what I saw of Phenny
18:22:01 <crschmid1> Perhaps I'm confused.
18:22:16 <crschmid1> My point was that a large chunk of phenny's code is phenny original, and ircbot.py simply provides a framework underneath that
18:22:30 <shapr> * shapr is tempted to look into phenny's internals
18:22:41 <sbp> all of phenny's code is phenny original :-)
18:22:43 <JibberJim> yes kpreid, but I didn't want to learn a load of stuff, I was hoping to just start playing with things..
18:22:58 <kpreid> JibberJim: I just mean that it's not correct to start it.
18:23:07 <kpreid> JibberJim: System Prefs > Sharing > Remote login
18:23:21 <crschmid1> Alright, I give up, cause I'm totally lost.
18:23:23 <JibberJim> yes, I got it started, but why do I have to use the mouse to start sshd ?
18:23:46 <crschmid1> Because it's easier than finding the config file?
18:23:47 <kpreid> JibberJim: You could edit inetd.conf, if you wanted.
18:23:52 <kpreid> I think.
18:24:07 <kpreid> point is, running sshd *isn't* the right way
18:24:08 <crschmid1> sbp: Oh! Wrong name. I meant ircAsync, not ircbot.py
18:24:19 <sbp> aha
18:24:26 <sbp> yeah, she's not ircAsync based anymore
18:24:31 <crschmid1> Ah, okay
18:24:36 <kpreid> kpreid has left #swhack
18:24:36 <jcowan> Anyone know if Phenella < phenny?
18:24:44 <crschmid1> * crschmid1 had to look at the julie source to figure out what he meant
18:24:51 <kpreid> kpreid (~kpreid@69-169-188-143.bflony.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
18:24:51 <sbp> is < precedes? if so, no
18:25:01 <kpreid> focus error!@
18:25:04 <jcowan> "is derived from"
18:25:40 <sbp> hmm. what *is* Phenella?
18:26:14 <jcowan> Oops, should be "Phennella"
18:26:25 <jcowan> Member of the Cranee Historical Society and Paramount Queen seven years back.
18:26:33 <crschmid1> Oh!
18:26:38 <sbp> aha. I guess I should've remembered that shouldn't I?
18:26:42 <crschmid1> I made her up, didn't I?
18:26:51 <sbp> hmm. thought I did
18:26:58 <sbp> appears you're right though
18:26:58 <crschmid1> I'm almost sure I did
18:27:02 <jcowan> In Alezan.
18:27:03 <crschmid1> phennella and vorpish
18:27:05 <sbp> Cranee just mentions her
18:27:07 <sbp> yeah
18:27:13 <sbp> vorpish is from Vorpal, no?
18:27:28 <crschmid1> I was on swhack at the time, thinking up names, and phenny had recently signed on
18:27:45 <crschmid1> It wasn't a concious decision, but looking back after I wrote it, it was definitely subconcious
18:27:50 <jcowan> Cool.
18:28:18 <crschmid1> And the other was vorpcara, not vorpish, which was associated: phenny's hostmask at the time was vorpal.notabug.com
18:29:05 <Morbus> * Morbus returens again cursing.
18:29:27 <crschmid1> looks like zeus's power isn't coming back. hrm.
18:29:37 <crschmidt> crschmidt has quit (Nick collision from services.)
18:29:40 <crschmid1> crschmid1 is now known as crschmidt
18:35:09 <Morbus> we've flickered about a dozen times here.
18:35:21 <Morbus> where flickered is intermittantly "lights" or "UPS beeping"
18:35:37 <crschmidt> Yeah, same here
18:35:47 <shapr> phenny: thanks
18:35:57 <shapr> thanks, phenny
18:35:59 <phenny> Don't mention it.
18:41:49 <sbp> jcowan: your license chooser is a touch confusing
18:41:58 <Morbus> hrm.
18:42:05 <crschmidt> Note to self: Never read Marc Canter's weblog.
18:42:08 <jcowan> sbp: suggestions?
18:42:08 <Morbus> is it "frustrating." or "frustrating?" or "frustrating"?
18:42:24 <Morbus> frustrating as quoted is not a question, but the rest of the sentence forms it as such.
18:42:24 <sbp> first question is "Is anyone allowed to reuse, give away, or sell your program?" and if you click no then you get to "Sorry, can't be open source"
18:42:36 <sbp> but surely NC licenses are still open source?
18:42:45 <jcowan> Nope.
18:42:46 <sbp> hmm. perhaps I'm just reading the "or" as "and"
18:42:59 <sbp> well... GPL is NC
18:43:13 <DrBacchus> DrBacchus has quit ("... and miles to go before I sleep.")
18:43:17 <sbp> which is what you get if you click yes/yes
18:43:59 <jcowan> Not at all. The FSF even sells GPLed software.
18:44:27 <crschmid1> crschmid1 (~crschmidt@dsl.allan.mv.com) has joined #swhack
18:44:33 <sbp> how is LGPL different to GPL then?
18:44:56 <crschmidt> crschmidt has quit (Nick collision from services.)
18:44:58 <crschmidt> crschmidt (~crschmidt@athena.crschmidt.net) has joined #swhack
18:45:03 <jcowan> LGPLed code can be incorporated as part of a program under any license.
18:45:06 <crschmidt> crschmidt has quit (Client Quit)
18:45:26 <crschmid1> crschmid1 is now known as crschmidt
18:45:30 <Ash> LGPL is for liquid only
18:45:34 <Ash> liquid gpl
18:45:46 <Ash> if you are selling products as a solid, you have to use the real gpl
18:45:49 <shapr> * shapr downloads 772 spam emails
18:46:12 <shapr> At least with physical spam you can start fires in the fireplace...
18:46:15 <sbp> is code liquid or solid?
18:46:22 <deusx> Can I convert the GPL to LGPL with a bad burrito?
18:46:23 <valmont_> valmont_ (~chrisholl@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #swhack
18:46:45 <bear> * bear throws small bulky items at deusx
18:47:07 <deusx> * deusx throws a bad burrito at bear.
18:47:16 <jcowan> What is a small bulky item?
18:47:19 <bear> * bear enjoys his free lunch
18:48:01 <jcowan> Quoth the OSD: [[[
18:48:02 <jcowan> 1. Free Redistribution
18:48:03 <jcowan> The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different sources. The license shall not require a royalty or other fee for such sale.
18:48:04 <jcowan> ]]]
18:48:18 <bear> jcowan, just my way of responding to a "bad" pun with an equally bad phrase
18:48:35 <jcowan> Ah.
18:49:17 <bear> it was a reflex action on my part - keep forgetting I'm very new in this channel
18:49:30 <jcowan> No problem, it's certainly on-topic.
18:49:38 <sbp> jcowan: yeah, just went and read that myself
18:50:06 <jcowan> CC and FLOSS are overlapping concepts.
18:50:40 <bear> jcowan, doesn't that mean that even though you may sell a open source app, you have to provide the source for free?
18:50:59 <jcowan> Yes.
18:50:59 <bear> * bear retracts his question
18:51:12 <jcowan> But the same is not true for apps using open-source code in them, unless the open-source license says so.
18:51:23 <bear> * bear nods
18:51:40 <jcowan> Of the well-known open-source licenses, only the GPL has this "strong reciprocity" requirement.
18:52:14 <bear> yep - it took a couple seconds for my brain to retrieve the last license discussion I had with my friend at the FSF
18:52:22 <sbp> shame CC advise using the GPL for code
18:52:29 <sbp> Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike would be wonderful
18:53:36 <Morbus> GPL advises CC not to be used for anything.
18:53:42 <jcowan> IMHO NC is always undesirable for software, as it restricts the redistributability of your code.
18:54:26 <sbp> restricts it in which way?
18:54:38 <jcowan> It prevents people like Red Hat from putting your code on their distros.
18:55:11 <sbp> thwarts open source zealots is a *plus*, man!
18:55:15 <sbp> * sbp ducks
18:55:33 <jcowan> Or even non-zealots.
18:55:43 <shapr> There are two competing definitions of Libre/Gratis software.
18:55:56 <jcowan> * jcowan scratches his head.
18:56:03 <shapr> They are epitomized by the FSF on one side, and Debian on the other.
18:56:33 <jcowan> * jcowan needs elucidation.
18:56:55 <shapr> Debian's goal is 'as many rights as possible to the user', FSF's goal is 'as many rights as possible to the public'
18:57:16 <Morbus> jcowan: so, you're happy with the license choice for Ghyll?
18:58:08 <sbp> is there an Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike like license specifically developed for use with code?
18:58:58 <shapr> For example, the FSF's GFDL says something along the lines of "this information may not be encrypted, access cannot be denied to others", but the DFSG is more about "you can do whatever you want with what we give you".
18:59:37 <shapr> jcowan: What do you think? Does that seem reasonable?
18:59:49 <jcowan> Morbus: The only thing that worries me is that some Ghyll articles are technically derivative works of Wikipedia, which is GFDL.
19:00:22 <shapr> I asked the FSF guys at EuroPython 2004 about DFSG vs FSF, but they dodged the question while admitting that the GFDL needed work.
19:01:19 <Morbus> jcowan: I thought they were *so* derivative that they didn't apply anymore?
19:01:21 <jcowan> "Use" (which is embedded in "do what you want") is an ambiguous term.
19:01:35 <jcowan> Morbus: Technically it's the history that matters, not how many bits they share.
19:01:50 <shapr> Personally, I like the GPL, and I wish US companies weren't so paranoid that they require closing of the code, and therefore BSD.
19:01:57 <Morbus> hrm. so were they inspiring, or cut and pasted and then modified?
19:01:58 <jcowan> They might be defended as fair use parodies.
19:02:00 <sbp> I thought they were so derived that it comes under the same-thoughts-different-expressed clause
19:02:35 <jcowan> Doc Rockett was literally made by grabbing the Asimov article and deleting some parts and replacing references in others.
19:03:14 <Morbus> yeah. that sounds like the tactic of a parody.
19:03:24 <Morbus> like a weird al yankovic song.
19:03:30 <jcowan> Weird Al usually gets permission.
19:03:33 <Morbus> well, bad example.
19:03:33 <Morbus> yeah
19:03:34 <Morbus> heh
19:03:37 <jcowan> blammo
19:03:43 <sbp> blammo
19:03:48 <jcowan> heh.
19:03:57 <jcowan> * jcowan turns and pukes down his sleeve.
19:04:07 <sbp> :-)
19:04:43 <jcowan> For example, you can't sing my parody of "There's No Business LIke Show Business" to the original tune, at least not publicly.
19:05:06 <jcowan> Though I can publish the parody all right because it *is* a parody.
19:05:54 <jcowan> But from the composer's POV, it's just his tune with some random set of words, and as such infringing.
19:06:11 <jcowan> Of course singing in the shower is still libre.
19:06:15 <jcowan> Though perhaps not for long.
19:06:43 <shapr> Amusing that France copyrighted the Eiffel tower recently.
19:06:49 <jcowan> Only at night.
19:06:53 <jcowan> And I suspect that won't stand.
19:07:04 <jcowan> You can already take pix of it and other buildings.
19:07:07 <shapr> * shapr has a mental image of the Eiffel tower collapsing in a pile of broken laws
19:07:38 <shapr> Do you think EU software patents will get passed?
19:08:24 <jcowan> Almost certainly.
19:08:34 <jcowan> Age and treachery beats etc.
19:08:45 <shapr> I've been staying in the EU at least partially because of stupid laws in my home country, the USA. If the stupid laws pass here, I'm not sure if I should give in and look for a high paying job in the US, or look for an even smaller country with non-stupid laws.
19:09:16 <jcowan> Iraq, perhaps.
19:09:23 <shapr> Any suggestions for areas in the USA that pay well? Or countries with non-stupid laws?
19:09:28 <jcowan> Or better yet, Somalia -- no laws at all!
19:10:13 <shapr> I've wondered about a patent haven country, where you can do anything as long at it stays server-side.
19:10:38 <shapr> Then you could sell services to the rest of the world, as long as the patented code doesn't make it into those other parts of the world.
19:10:52 <jcowan> I think Somalia is your only hope.
19:11:04 <jcowan> Be sure to hire good bodyguards. Cell phone service is very very cheap, though.
19:11:26 <shapr> Standard Oil has been replaced by all the big companies working together.
19:12:04 <shapr> zaibatsu
19:13:13 <shapr> * shapr has a temper tantrum
19:14:29 <sbp> can't find a single generic non-commercial code license
19:14:31 <jcowan> * jcowan picks up shapr, carries him to his room, closes the door, and leaves him alone for five minutes.
19:17:38 <sbp> jcowan: what about AFL vs. LGPL?
19:17:45 <Morbus> * Morbus begins chanting "fight! fight!"
19:18:05 <jcowan> The AFL is more BSD-ish, but unlike BSD and MIT it's unfortunately incompatible with the GPL.
19:18:34 <sbp> BSD-ish?
19:18:35 <jcowan> If you don't care about GPL compatibility, or are willing to dual license, I like the AFL very much as a non-reciprocal license.
19:18:57 <jcowan> Unfortunately, I couldn't convince the goons of debian-legal that it's DFSG-free.
19:19:08 <sbp> what is the essence of BSD-license nature?
19:19:10 <jcowan> I contend that the GPL is not DFSG-free either, as it fails the Tentacles of Evil test.
19:19:23 <jcowan> sbp: "Use it for anything you want, just don't hike off the copyright or blame me."
19:20:05 <sbp> very minimalist
19:20:13 <shapr> I've been wondering about that too, whether the GPL fails the DFSG.
19:20:34 <shapr> jcowan: Hey, you never answered, do you know Jon Singer?
19:20:52 <jcowan> Not as far as I can remember.
19:20:55 <shapr> He has a lot of metaknowledge, so I thought you might.
19:21:55 <AaronSw> I think the GPL may only pass the DFSG by definition and culture.
19:22:19 <jeannie_atwork> jeannie_atwork (~jeannie_a@67-40-179-147.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #swhack
19:24:16 <jcowan> Any definition of "free software" or "open source software" that the GPL doesn't pass is broken.
19:24:37 <jcowan> If they'd just say that the GPL is exempt from TOE, that'd be one thing.
19:24:49 <shapr> Does that mean that open source software implies tentacles of evil?
19:25:38 <jcowan> Ironically, it's the corporate licenses that debian-legal distrusts that are most likely to be TOE-compliant, because they are enforceable contracts.
19:26:01 <jcowan> The GPL is an act of sovereign power by the licensor, and there is nothing to prevent the licensor from revoking it, with public notice of course.
19:26:21 <jcowan> The AFL is a contract too, but only the licensor makes promises under it.
19:26:37 <shapr> Personally, I look at the GPL as a Basilisk upon the legal system.
19:28:04 <shapr> Have you seen the comp.basilisk FAQ? http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v402/n6761/full/402465a0_r.html
19:29:28 <jcowan> I haven't, but thanks.
19:29:45 <jcowan> The GPL is perfectly ordinary, really; it's just being used for an unusual purpose.
19:29:55 <jcowan> That's why nobody tries to fight the GPL in court.
19:30:15 <jcowan> If you are accused of infringement, the last thing you want to claim is that the GPL is invalid. If it's invalid, you are an infringer pure and simple.
19:30:23 <shapr> How so?
19:30:39 <shapr> That surely sounds like a Gödel attack to me, or at least a legal Klein bottle of some flavor.
19:30:56 <jcowan> The GPL is a unilateral action whereby the copyright owner permits you to do some things you couldn't otherwise do.
19:31:11 <jcowan> The nearest analogy is that you can trespass on someone else's land with the owner's permission.
19:31:21 <jcowan> The permission may be conditional, like "Don't leave trash here."
19:31:22 <valmont_> valmont_ is now known as valmont
19:31:45 <jcowan> If you do leave trash, and are being sued for trespass, it's not a sensible strategy to claim that the original permission was unlawful.
19:31:51 <jcowan> It cuts your own case off at the knees.
19:31:54 <shapr> I see.
19:33:07 <jcowan> OTOH, you don't have much recourse if the owner revokes the permission to trespass.
19:33:39 <jcowan> If you have done costly things that reasonably rely on that permission, you *may* be able to claim that the owner is "collaterally estopped" from revoking the permission with respect to you.
19:33:49 <jcowan> But that's way less than the TOE test demands.
19:33:55 <jcowan> IANAL, TINLA.
19:34:10 <shapr> I think we all know that :-)
19:34:30 <jcowan> I have to say it anyway, or Larry Rosen will find me and tell me again to go to law school.
19:35:51 <shapr> I've never met him.
19:36:57 <jcowan> Neither have I.
19:37:12 <jcowan> But I tech-reviewed his book, which I think is excellent.
19:37:17 <shapr> Oh neat.
19:37:38 <shapr> I like reviewing tech books. Happily I get to do that for the pragmatic programmers.
19:38:02 <shapr> I got my name in "Ship It!" and probably in "Behind Closed Doors: Secrets of Great Management" too.
19:38:19 <Talliesin> Talliesin (~Talliesin@83-70-39-90.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net) has joined #swhack
19:38:22 <jcowan> He also got it reviewed by +lawyer -geek and by -lawyer +geek, to fill in the holes.
19:38:22 <shapr> Of course, just mentioned under the acknowledgements as "thanks for feedback"
19:38:34 <jcowan> Same here.
19:39:14 <shapr> Still, it gives me another fix for my knowledge addiction, and I get a free book too.
19:45:58 <jcowan> Exactly so.
19:49:52 <jcowan> So, the problem with instantiation in the type/behavior framework.
19:50:23 <jcowan> When you ask for an object of given type to be instantiated, the effect is that behavior subobjects (each with state private to it) are instantiated.
19:51:06 <jcowan> But who is it who knows how to set up the initial values of those private chunks of state, and how to relate it to whatever the client passed in as arguments to the instantiation?
19:51:15 <jcowan> Seemingly nobody.
19:52:03 <shapr> You need a metaobject?
19:52:40 <jcowan> That solves the "new" part of instantiation, but not the "initialize" part of it.
19:52:45 <jcowan> (In Smalltalk terms.)
19:53:34 <jcowan> It's the latter that worries me.
19:53:51 <jcowan> I don't want to expose constructors to the clients of types, only factory methods of some sort.
19:53:59 <shapr> reflection?
19:54:14 <jcowan> That causes an undesirable degree of coupling.
19:54:35 <jcowan> The idea of behaviors is that you snap them together like Lego blocks:
19:55:08 <shapr> How can you do that with stateful code?
19:55:20 <jcowan> The behavior of an object belonging to a given type is specified iff the self-methods invoked by all methods in the behavior are defined in either that behavior or some other behavior.
19:55:39 <jcowan> s/behavior/total behavior/
19:58:20 <jcowan> All state variables are associated with a behavior and not visible to the other behaviors making up the object.
19:59:31 <jcowan> Now formally this can be solved by having each behavior provide setter methods for its state that are visible to other behaviors in the type but not outside the type.
19:59:42 <jcowan> But that makes the whole idea of separated behaviors worthless.
20:03:26 <jcowan> There needs to be some way in which the user of the type can pass initialization criteria (the size of a collection, e.g.) to those behaviors which care.
20:03:32 <jcowan> I'm stumped.
20:08:15 <Schmeez> jcowan, isn't that what initializers are for? We set up "object-global" variables and then our methods can access them?
20:08:27 <Schmeez> I must be missing something here
20:08:59 <jcowan> My model is to group ordinary methods (not class/static/factory methods) into chunks, such that there are no "object-global" variables.
20:09:52 <Schmeez> OK, so in Python parlance that would be "unbound methods" I guess
20:09:56 <kpreid> jcowan: Something has to choose the behaviors an object has: can't that handle distributing initial state to the behaviors, with something in each behavior for internalizing that state?
20:11:57 <jcowan> A type specifies a bunch of behaviors, and the compiler makes sure the behaviors are complete (no one behavior can call a method on self unless another behavior implements that method).
20:12:16 <jcowan> s/another behavior/another behavior or itself
20:12:24 <Schmeez> Are you "mixing in" behaviours to create "on-the-fly" types or are your types (and their allowable behaviours) set up beforehand?
20:12:36 <jcowan> I'm not sure what the timeframes mean.
20:12:44 <jcowan> This happens at compile time, if that answers the question.
20:12:47 <kpreid> jcowan: Anything wrong with associating code with the type definition?
20:13:04 <jcowan> Code associated with the type is just another behavior, an anonymous one.
20:13:33 <jcowan> But you ought to be able to write down a type based on just the visible methods of its behaviors.
20:13:55 <Schmeez> What's the difference between this and a set of Python objects and methods with only method-local variables?
20:14:10 <jcowan> The fact that a behavior contains many methods.
20:14:13 <kpreid> Well, you could just give every behavior all the initialization arguments and let them sort it out.
20:14:22 <kpreid> Given named arguments.
20:14:25 <jcowan> Ah.
20:14:35 <jcowan> * jcowan thinks about that.
20:14:40 <crschmidt> JibberJim: you around?
20:15:04 <kpreid> Possibly with additional mechanism for saying "this argument never got used, something is wrong"
20:15:23 <kpreid> which should be optional, and embedded in the argument name
20:15:44 <kpreid> footnote: 'name' != 'string'
20:15:50 <kpreid> er, not-necessarily-=
20:16:17 <Schmeez> kpreid, then you would need to know all the init variables for all the subtypes
20:16:23 <JibberJim> crschmidt!
20:16:25 <Schmeez> s/subtype/behaviour
20:16:44 <Schmeez> Which I imagine you would need to know anyway...
20:17:02 <kpreid> Schmeez: For a runtime form, the initializers would report which arguments were used.
20:17:02 <Schmeez> I'm trying to see how this differs from mixins
20:17:13 <kpreid> If after initialization of the object, any were unused, optional boom.
20:18:28 <JibberJim> hmm, safari doesn't seem to have many settings, where's the "disable gif animations" ?
20:18:29 <jcowan> kpreid: The problem would be in knowing what counts as "using" an argument.
20:18:30 <Schmeez> OK... so your behaviours would have to "call back" to alert the super-type that they used a variable (or modify a shared variable)
20:18:45 <kpreid> jcowan: THe initializer defines that.
20:18:48 <crschmidt> JibberJim: No, it doesn't have many options
20:18:50 <jcowan> Schmeez: Classical mixins involve potentially shared state between the mixins.
20:19:20 <crschmidt> I don't know if I really need to ask you anything. I want a random string in javascript, but I can probalby google that and find it
20:19:26 <Schmeez> jcowan, OK so this is like that but without the shared state (or rather explicitly disallowing the shared state)
20:19:27 <jcowan> Also, in this scheme methods are never inherited, only incorporated from a behavior.
20:19:51 <jcowan> If you want to have the same implementation as your supertype, incorporate its behavior.
20:19:54 <JibberJim> random string? create random numbers between 0-1 with Math.random() then covert to strings however you want...
20:20:11 <jcowan> (You can suppress or rename a method from a behavior when incorporating it, to allow for skew.)
20:20:15 <Schmeez> jcowan, so what do you inherit?
20:20:41 <jcowan> A type can declare which of its methods are public, and that's inherited from all the supertypes of the type.
20:20:57 <jcowan> So Liskov substitutability is maintained, at least formally.
20:20:59 <Schmeez> OK, so you inherit "exposure"
20:21:06 <Schmeez> Hmmmm
20:21:28 <Schmeez> Doesn't Liskov require the function to be the same, not just the form?
20:21:42 <jcowan> She requires the *behavior* (not in my sense) to be the same.
20:21:47 <Schmeez> right
20:22:05 <jcowan> Nothing can guarantee that unless we abandon dynamic method lookup altogether.
20:22:19 <jcowan> BTW, it's interesting to see that Java and C# between them can't quite manage what Clu had in 1987.
20:22:21 <Schmeez> So the outcome of calling the method should not change given the same input but two different types in a sub/super role
20:22:29 <jcowan> (Java doesn't have yield and C# doesn't have generics)
20:22:42 <jcowan> Schmeez: Loosely, yes.
20:22:49 <crschmidt> JibberJim: Yeah, I just realized though that everything that I can do, people will be able to see the source code too, which doesn't work for me. bleh.
20:22:54 <crschmidt> * crschmidt is working with OpenID right now
20:23:15 <Schmeez> jcowan, do you have sources for this?
20:23:21 <Schmeez> I mean code
20:23:29 <jcowan> Not yet, still thinking about it.
20:23:39 <Schmeez> Too bad...
20:23:44 <jcowan> I may have to abandon the idea if I can't get a handle on this instantiation problem.
20:24:01 <Schmeez> I don't get the problem (maybe I'm being obtuse)
20:24:22 <Schmeez> It looks like it could just be done in Python using no shared variables and using classes as mixins
20:24:50 <crschmidt> I'm going to have to try and remember DBI code, it seems.
20:25:00 <jcowan> Only if the mixins get passed the original selfness.
20:25:33 <Schmeez> jcowan, well they would... gimme a second... I'm going to hack a little example up
20:27:48 <libby> libby (~libby@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
20:27:53 <jcowan> Schmeez: wait.
20:28:39 <jetx> jetx has quit (Client Quit)
20:28:55 <Schmeez> jcowan, yes?
20:29:30 <Schmeez> jcowan, Check out http://deadbeefbabe.org/paste/991 and tell me where I'm not understanding what you're trying to do
20:29:45 <Schmeez> I mean, I know the example is contrived but...
20:30:19 <jcowan> Look at http://farfetched.blogspot.com/2005/05/another-solution-to-fragile-base-class.html for me?
20:33:02 <Schmeez> OK...
20:36:14 <Schmeez> All I see is a way to make sure that people override all the methods of your class.... thus ensuring (if you implemented it that way) that all the methods in a "division" are either overridden or not
20:36:28 <bjoern_> any xml2rfc expert around?
20:36:50 <kandinski> is "the methods of your class" == "the ways of your people"?
20:37:09 <Schmeez> * Schmeez laughs
20:39:40 <jcowan> I think your example requires that self.location and self.color be replaced by self.drivable_location and self.paintable_color to avoid conflicts.
20:39:54 <jcowan> But that's a small point.
20:39:56 <Schmeez> Sorry, I should have had "__" in front
20:39:58 <Schmeez> Bad habit
20:40:13 <jcowan> * jcowan is not a Python weenie.
20:40:16 <Schmeez> I don't *really* believe in private variables all that much (not that I like globals)
20:40:26 <Schmeez> * Schmeez is wondering if he is
20:41:00 <Morbus> private and globals sound like a leak that the language should make obsolete
20:41:19 <jcowan> How does private work in Python?
20:41:26 <Schmeez> Morbus, care to elaborate before I put my foot in my mouth?
20:42:00 <Schmeez> jcowan, anything with "_" infront of it doesn't show up in auto-gen help but can be called (or accessed) anyway
