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02:01:04 <lonur> monty: name a verse in ecclesiasticus
02:01:06 <Monty> sorry, didn't cover *too* many. LOL
02:01:49 <lonur> monty: name a verse in ecclesiasticus 9
02:01:53 <Monty> Pre-colonial brewing was explained how that once you know the owner of discrepancies.
02:06:59 <lonur> monty: list a verse in Proverbs
02:07:03 <Monty> It's true to say that audacious techno starfruit moves second tartan RFCs!
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03:13:36 <chimezie> .news $planetpython 1
03:13:38 <phenny> chimezie: 12 Aug 13:27Z <crschmidt> tell chimezie ^allRelated http://crschmidt.net/blog/archives/88/versa-thoughts/
03:13:41 <Emeka> rss items with a dc:date greater than or equal to 2005-08-12:
03:13:42 <phenny> chimezie: 12 Aug 15:59Z <uche> tell chimezie please add varsBound and profile to Emeka's help2. I keep forgetting varsBound, for example. Thanks.
03:13:43 <Emeka> [u'"online.effbot.org - Fredrik Lundh: observationer" - http://online.effbot.org#20050812',
03:13:46 <phenny> chimezie: 12 Aug 16:00Z <uche> tell chimezie O I C. It's .varBound with no args rather than .varsBound. Right in the help. Duh! Sorry.
03:13:46 <Emeka> u'"Small Values of Cool - Simon Brunning: Python 2.4, Windows and MSVC7" - http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/archives/001906.html',
03:13:50 <Emeka> u'"Second p0st - Phillip Pearson: PubSub "Hyperbole number"" - http://www.myelin.co.nz/post/2005/8/12/#200508122',
03:13:53 <chimezie> woah
03:13:53 <Emeka> u'"Second p0st - Phillip Pearson: Very limited offer, take advantage while you still can" - http://www.myelin.co.nz/post/2005/8/12/#200508121',
03:13:57 <Emeka> u'"Robert Brewer: WSGI wrapper for mod_python" - http://www.amorhq.net/blogs/index.php/fumanchu/2005/08/11/wsgi_wrapper_for_mod_python',
03:14:00 <Emeka> ... more (19 lines total)...
03:14:40 <chimezie> ^allRelated http://crschmidt.net/blog/archives/88/versa-thoughts/
03:14:40 <julie> dc:date 2005-08-12T13:23:50Z, rss:title Versa Thoughts, dc:creator crschmidt (mailto:crschmidt@crschmidt.net), dc:subject Semantic Web, dc:subject RDF, rdf:type rss:item, foaf:topic (r1123503917r11), foaf:topic (r1123503917r10), dcterms:references http://crschmidt.net/blog/fif, dcterms:references http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2005/07/20/versa.html, dc:subject http://crschmidt.net/blog/archives/author/crschmidt/skos.rdf#c29, foaf:maker (r1123503917r8),
03:14:40 <julie> rss:link http://crschmidt.net/blog/archives/88/versa-thoughts/, foaf:topic (r1123503917r9), dc:subject http://crschmidt.net/blog/archives/author/crschmidt/skos.rdf#c2, dcterms:references http://crschmidt.net/semweb/review/showrdf, dc:subject SPARQL, rss:modules/content/encoded <p>Lately, I’ve been watching Chimezie play with <a href="http://www.xml.com/cs/user/view/cs_msg/2990">Emeka</a>, his RDF bot. It’s basically a Versa/4suite co
03:15:14 <crschmidt> chimezie: http://crschmidt.net/blog/archives/88/versa-thoughts/ is the actual link
03:15:30 <chimezie> ahh thx
03:15:36 <crschmidt> i was just showing off julie
03:16:07 <chimezie> does she take rdql queries only (no sparql syntax)?
03:17:05 <chimezie> .news $planetswhack 1
03:17:08 <Emeka> rss items with a dc:date greater than or equal to 2005-08-12:
03:17:11 <Emeka> [u'"Uche and Chimezie Ogbuji: Proper mailing list for Versa" - http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005/08/12#Proper_mai', u'"Uche and Chimezie Ogbuji: Versa Ratification - Moving towards a final specification" - http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005/08/12#VersaRatification', u'"Christopher Schmidt: Versa Thoughts" - http://crschmidt.net/blog/archives/88/versa-thoughts/', u'"Uche and Chimezie Ogbuji: Today\'s XML wot he said" - http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005/08
03:19:29 <chimezie> .news $planetrdf 1
03:19:33 <Emeka> rss items with a dc:date greater than or equal to 2005-08-12:
03:19:35 <Emeka> [u'"The Business of Algorithms" - http://weblog.burningbird.net/archives/2005/08/12/the-business-of-algorithms/',
03:19:38 <Emeka> u'"Adding context to SeRQL" - http://feeds.feedburner.com/TheSeer?m=19',
03:19:42 <Emeka> u'"Shooting stars tonight" - http://dannyayers.com/archives/2005/08/12/shooting-stars-tonight/',
03:19:45 <Emeka> u'"Podcast from Space" - http://captsolo.net/info/blog_a.php/2005/08/12/podcast_from_space',
03:19:49 <Emeka> u'"Giving Google a hand" - http://dannyayers.com/archives/2005/08/12/test-2/',
03:19:52 <Emeka> ... more (9 lines total)...
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03:20:01 <uche_> interesting
03:20:08 <uche_> So we can check generality here
03:20:22 <chimezie> what do you mean?
03:21:11 <uche_> .varBind twoplanets list($planetpython, $planetswhack)
03:21:13 <Emeka> Unable to evaluate that Versa expression
03:21:21 <uche_> hmm
03:21:34 <uche_> .varBound $planetpython,
03:21:36 <Emeka> There is no variable bound to that name
03:21:38 <uche_> .varBound $planetpython
03:21:40 <Emeka> There is no variable bound to that name
03:21:47 <chimezie> w/out $
03:21:52 <chimezie> .varBound planetpython
03:21:53 <crschmidt> chimezie: she should do sparql just fine
03:21:54 <Emeka> $planetpython = http://planetpython.org/rss10.xml
03:22:08 <uche_> duh
03:22:08 <chimezie> im surprised it didn't take the list expression
03:22:14 <uche_> yeah
03:22:14 <crschmidt> ^q select ?p where { ?p foaf:nick "chimezie". }
03:22:14 <julie> http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/FOAF/chimezie.rdf#chime, http://purl.org/net/chimezie/foaf#chime
03:22:24 <crschmidt> oh, and i fixed your 302 issue
03:22:32 <chimezie> you used urllib2?
03:22:34 <uche_> I was just seeing whether I could use Versa to aggregate the blogs on the fly
03:22:43 <uche_> Looks like I should be able to (which is very neat)
03:22:49 <uche_> Once you fix that query bug :-)
03:23:07 <chimezie> unfortuntaely it resolves variables to a *single* uri from which it gets the feed
03:23:46 <crschmidt> chimezie: nope, changed my subclass to be of FancyURLOpener instead of URLOpener
03:23:52 <chimezie> ahh..
03:24:10 <crschmidt> [[[
03:24:11 <crschmidt> class Grab(urllib.FancyURLopener):
03:24:11 <crschmidt> def __init__(self, *args):
03:24:11 <crschmidt> self.version = 'SemWebAgent (julie/redlandbot 0.5)'
03:24:11 <crschmidt> urllib.FancyURLopener.__init__(self, *args)
03:24:14 <crschmidt> urllib._urlopener = Grab()
03:24:16 <crschmidt> ]]]
03:24:38 <chimezie> it shouldn't be too hard to check if the variable resolves to a list and deserialize graphs from each item as a uri string instead
03:24:45 <chimezie> that *would* be very effective
03:25:32 <chimezie> ^q select ?person where { ?chime foaf:nick "chimezie";foaf:knows ?person.}
03:25:32 <julie> http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/FOAF/chimezie.rdf#MJB, http://purl.org/net/chimezie/foaf#MJB, http://purl.org/net/chimezie/foaf#Micah, http://purl.org/net/chimezie/foaf#Christopher, http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/FOAF/chimezie.rdf#EMiller, http://purl.org/net/chimezie/foaf#EMiller, http://purl.org/net/chimezie/foaf#SBP, http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/FOAF/chimezie.rdf#Christopher, http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/FOAF/chimezie.rdf#Uche, http://copia.ogb
03:25:32 <julie> uji.net/files/FOAF/chimezie.rdf#SBP, http://purl.org/net/chimezie/foaf#Uche, http://copia.ogbuji.net/files/FOAF/chimezie.rdf#Micah
03:25:58 <crschmidt> ^allRelated http://purl.org/net/chimezie/foaf#Christopher
03:25:59 <julie> foaf:mbox_sha1sum d1235763342ad472a26e0cc3b2cc01268c98690d, rdf:type foaf:Person, rdfs:seeAlso http://crschmidt.net/foaf.rdf, foaf:name Christopher Schmidt
03:26:05 <crschmidt> hey, that's me!
03:26:16 <chimezie> :)
03:26:17 <crschmidt> should smush
03:26:21 <crschmidt> apparently haven't done so recently
03:29:10 <chimezie> loggy
03:29:34 <chimezie> how does that work again? grab the swhack log pointer to 'now'
03:30:00 <crschmidt> loggy: pointer
03:30:00 <crschmidt> See http://swhack.com/logs/2005-08-13#T03-30-00
03:30:04 <chimezie> danke
03:30:48 <chimezie> .news http://del.icio.us/rss/swigbot 1
03:30:51 <Emeka> rss items with a dc:date greater than or equal to 2005-08-12:
03:30:53 <Emeka> [u'"Design for SPARQL engine in Sesame" - http://sparql.sourceforge.net/design.html', u'"Versa -- discussion of Versa, a query language for RDF" - http://lists.fourthought.com/mailman/listinfo/versa']
03:34:42 <chimezie> crschmidt: Triple patterns will always be advantageous where you can link statements by common objects, subjects (with ';'), however for queries that rely less on triple patterns and more on OPTION, UNION, and FILTERS, the SPARQL syntax begins to divorce itself from the underlying data model IMHO and starts to look something akin to the ugliness of SQL joins and the like
03:35:50 <crschmidt> ah, thati'll perfectly well agree with
03:38:12 <chimezie> N3 has done wonders for RDF
03:38:31 <crschmidt> I've never used OPTION, UNION, or FILTERS, really
03:38:35 <crschmidt> regex once or twice
03:39:26 <crschmidt> But I'm used to working with julie's dataset, and regex is ridiculously slow due to implementation
03:39:45 <chimezie> redland, right?
03:39:47 <crschmidt> yep
03:40:06 <crschmidt> It selects all triples from the datastore which match the pattern up to that point
03:40:13 <crschmidt> and then regexes them in applicationspace
03:40:16 <chimezie> ouch
03:40:27 <crschmidt> so, select ?n where (?p foaf:name ?n) AND ?n =~ /Christopher/
03:40:32 <crschmidt> will load every single foaf:name
03:40:36 <crschmidt> (some 200,000)
03:40:49 <crschmidt> ^command commentContains
03:40:55 <crschmidt> ^commandinfo commentContains
03:40:55 <julie> Command commentContains: select ?a where (?a rdfs:comment ?c) and ?c =~ /%s/
03:41:04 <crschmidt> yeah. that one isn't so great either
03:41:52 <chimezie> that's the sacrifice with an expressive syntax: heavy reliance on optimization of how you implement
03:42:25 <crschmidt> ^ns rel
03:42:26 <julie> The URL for the rel namespace is http://purl.org/vocab/relationship/
03:42:35 <chimezie> ^command allRelated
03:42:45 <crschmidt> ^commandinfo allRelated
03:42:45 <julie> Command allRelated: select ?a ?b where (<%s> ?a ?b)
03:42:58 <crschmidt> anyway, i have a rel:lifePartnerOf in bed waiting for me. so I'll be off for the night
03:43:11 <chimezie> nice crschmidt
03:43:18 <chimezie> nite
03:43:22 <crschmidt> nini
03:44:11 <chimezie> Emeka, leave
03:44:13 <Emeka> chimezie: Goodbye!
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04:26:47 <chimezie> .varBind twoplanets list($planetpython, $planetswhack)
04:26:47 <Emeka> Unable to evaluate that Versa expression
04:27:03 <chimezie> .varBind testVar list(1,2)
04:27:03 <Emeka> Variable testVar bound to list
04:27:13 <chimezie> .varBound testVar
04:27:14 <Emeka> $testVar = [1.0, 2.0]
04:27:47 <chimezie> .varBind testVar list('http://del.icio.us/rss/chimezie', 'http://del.ico.us/rss/connolly')
04:27:47 <Emeka> Unable to evaluate that Versa expression
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04:48:14 <chimezie> Emeka, leave
04:48:14 <Emeka> chimezie: Goodbye!
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04:58:18 <chimezie> Emeka, leave
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05:24:58 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's chimezie!
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06:08:56 <chimezie> .news http://del.icio.us/digitalmonkey 2
06:08:58 <Emeka> rss items with a dc:date greater than or equal to 2005-08-11:
06:08:59 <Emeka> []
06:09:19 <crschmidt> what's the "2" for?
06:09:42 <chimezie> number of days prior to today (or today if none given)
06:09:56 <crschmidt> but, today's the 12th, no?
06:10:01 <crschmidt> oh, wait, it's past midnight
06:10:04 <crschmidt> okay
06:10:18 <chimezie> yeah, it always throws me off when I'm in here at the wee hours
06:10:26 <chimezie> .news http://del.icio.us/connolly 2
06:10:27 <Emeka> rss items with a dc:date greater than or equal to 2005-08-11:
06:10:27 <Emeka> []
06:11:53 <chimezie> .profile http://crschmidt.net/blog/feed/rdf/
06:11:55 <Emeka> The set of resource classes in the given RDF graph (and the properties defined on them)
06:11:55 <Emeka> Class: http://purl.org/rss/1.0/item, Properties: [u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/title', u'http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/creator', u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/link', u'http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/topic', u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/encoded', u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/description', u'http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/maker', u'http://purl.org/dc/terms/references', u'http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/date', u'http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/subject']
06:11:55 <Emeka> Class: http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#Seq, Properties: [u'http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#_1', u'http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#_2', u'http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#_3']
06:11:56 <Emeka> Class: http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person, Properties: [u'http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/nick', u'http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/mbox_sha1sum', u'http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#seeAlso', u'http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/homepage']
06:11:59 <Emeka> Class: http://purl.org/rss/1.0/channel, Properties: [u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/title', u'http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/date', u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/updatePeriod', u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/link', u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/description', u'http://webns.net/mvcb/generatorAgent', u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/updateBase', u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/items', u'http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/updateFrequency
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06:46:05 <Monty> hey q8uv
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09:59:42 <Monty> hi laplink, how ya doing?
09:59:45 <phenny> Monty: shh, don't let anyone know you're around!
09:59:46 <Monty> Donna the links).
10:00:13 <laplink> Nothing but the rain Monty.
10:00:14 <Monty> I printed it )
10:50:44 <lonur> Monty: what should I do next?
10:50:45 <Monty> hates thermometer.
10:51:30 <lonur> Monty: you mean I should not become a medic?
10:51:31 <Monty> ahh..
10:51:45 <lonur> Monty: I should? that is a good point
10:51:46 <Monty> gazes at snippets!
10:51:56 <lonur> .w snippet
10:51:59 <phenny> snippet 1. a small piece of anything (especially a piece that has been snipped off)
10:52:27 <lonur> Monty: np, you'll protect me, won't you?
10:52:27 <Monty> wow
12:00:51 <deltab> hrm, Firefox crashed, and now when I run it there is no text
12:01:09 <shapr> hiya deltab
12:01:21 <shapr> Wassup?
12:02:16 <deltab> hi
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13:58:03 <chimezie> .news http://news.google.com/?ned=us&topic=w&output=rss
13:58:06 <Emeka> rss items with a dc:date greater than or equal to 2005-08-13:
13:58:08 <Emeka> [u'"Toward a two-party system - The Japan Times" - http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/geted.pl5?ed20050813a1.htm',
13:58:12 <Emeka> u'"British diplomats attacked in Pakistan - Guardian Unlimited" - http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foreignaffairs/story/0,11538,1548458,00.html',
13:58:15 <Emeka> u'"Passengers struggle with delays - BBC News" - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4148550.stm',
13:58:19 <Emeka> u'"Security forces kill PKK militant in eastern Turkey - Xinhua" - http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-08/13/content_3348773.htm',
13:58:22 <Emeka> u'"Ugandan minister says media must respect security - Reuters South Africa" - http://za.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-08-13T125552Z_01_BAN346491_RTRIDST_0_OZATP-UGANDA-MEDIA-20050813.XML',
13:58:26 <Emeka> ... more (21 lines total)...
13:59:51 <chimezie> .varBind worldNews "http://news.google.com/?ned=us&topic=w&output=rss"
13:59:53 <Emeka> Variable worldNews bound to unicode
14:00:55 <crschmidt> remind me in 6 hours reply to sandro's email
14:00:55 <Monty> crschmidt: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Sat Aug 13 21:00:55 BST 2005
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14:30:43 <sbp> .cp horizontal ellipsis
14:30:46 <phenny> 2026: HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS (…)
14:30:49 <phenny> 22EF: MIDLINE HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS (⋯)
14:30:50 <crschmid1> crschmid1 (n=crschmid@commune.crschmidt.net) has joined #swhack
14:30:52 <phenny> FE19: PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS (︙) [...]
14:31:21 <kpreid> .pc …
14:31:25 <phenny> 2026: HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS (…)
14:31:35 <crschmid1> crschmid1 has quit (Client Quit)
14:33:53 <Arnia> Hello sbp
14:34:03 <sbp> yo Arnia
14:34:06 <sbp> how goes it?
14:34:12 <sbp> CRICKET RAINED OFF
14:34:36 <Arnia> Goes ok... very glad I installed beagle. I can actually find all my papers now :)
14:38:03 <kpreid> kpreid has changed the topic to: FE19: PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS (︙)
14:49:53 <uche_> Arnia, beagle works well for you?
14:50:04 <uche_> I've been hesitant to try because of many problem reports
14:51:22 <sbp> .cp ^1337
14:51:25 <phenny> 1337: ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE PHWA (ጷ)
14:52:10 <sbp> .gc l33tmotif
14:52:13 <phenny> l33tmotif: 2
14:52:22 <sbp> what!
14:52:36 <sbp> gah, it wasn't even me in the past
14:56:41 <Arnia> uche_: The hoary backport is working well
14:56:58 <Arnia> uche_: Takes a bit of getting used to though...
14:57:31 <Ash> SALTY BARTLETT PEARS
14:58:04 <Arnia> uche_: I'm currently thinking of rewriting GNOME storage so that it is backed by Frege, and adding a tuple space to Frege for a lucene-style index
14:58:07 <sbp> ASTRONAUTS' SHERBERT HUMVEES
14:58:38 <Arnia> uche_: Beagle's bindings are very high-level though, so I may have to write my own set to do that :(
14:59:11 <sbp> cricket's on!
14:59:34 <uche_> england won their last test, no?
15:00:09 <uche_> good luck, anyway
15:00:20 <uche_> Arnia, sounds ambitious but fun
15:01:47 <Arnia> uche_: Yeah. I began work on a set of python bindings for libmrs (to get the minimum recursive semantics representation of a parse) but I realise that I'm going to have to extend PET (the chart parser) to take lexical entries from Frege too
15:01:51 <crschmidt> RDF Predicates: camel case or _ ?
15:02:19 <Arnia> uche_: It is a hell of a lot of work, but it is a hell of a lot of fun... just got to work out where to begin really. Starting is always the hardest bit
15:02:26 <Arnia> crschmidt: camel case IMO
15:03:55 <sbp> uche_: yep, by two runs!
15:06:49 <sbp> crschmidt: Pascal Case
15:07:59 <uche_> crschmidt, I'm a sucker for dashes
15:08:13 <uche_> XSLT case ;-)
15:08:17 <crschmidt> sbp: ew. You are kidding, right?
15:08:19 <uche_> APL case before that
15:08:25 <uche_> no
15:08:32 <uche_> I don't find hump case readable
15:08:34 <uche_> never have
15:08:44 <uche_> underscores are much better, but the shift key annoys me
15:08:51 <crschmidt> uche_: yeah, that was directed at sbp, who advised Pascalcase
15:08:54 <crschmidt> PascalCase*
15:09:00 <uche_> al
15:09:11 <sbp> bring the system down from within
15:09:33 <crschmidt> Alright, so I've got a smartass, camelCase, and xslt-case
15:10:05 <sbp> crushing you if you use _ or -
15:10:09 <Arnia> * Arnia just rejects RDF for the moment
15:10:24 <sbp> anyway, off to watch the cricket
15:12:26 <uche_> Arnia, you too, eh?
15:12:43 <uche_> IT'S A REVOLUTION OF ANTIS
15:13:02 <uche_> Could be worse: REVOLUTION OF ANTIES
15:13:10 <uche_> AUNTIES, that is
15:13:29 <uche_> Arnia, what's your alternative? Microformats?
15:13:41 <uche_> Those are crap waiting to explode in the microwave
15:14:36 <Arnia> uche_: Nah, it is predicate logic I'm currently rejecting
15:15:13 <uche_> hmmmmm
15:15:18 <Arnia> uche_: I've realised that the source of all my problems with the RDF data-model is that
15:15:20 <uche_> RDF != predicate logic, though
15:15:35 <uche_> I agree that preicate logic is the next stop on the train
15:15:35 <Arnia> uche_: It is based upon it
15:16:06 <Arnia> uche_: based on in the sense that its semantics is given in the form of model-theoretics
15:16:17 <uche_> * uche_ nods
15:16:29 <uche_> We need anarchic theoretics
15:16:35 <Arnia> Recent research I've done has convinced me that model-theoretic semantics is fundamentally unsuited to this job
15:17:55 <uche_> The next person in here with Modus Ponens GETS IT!
15:18:03 <Arnia> (to move from researching description logics and talking about how you can describe it all using model theoretics to rejecting them outright was a hard step to take, but I had to take it)
15:18:38 <uche_> Heh
15:18:50 <uche_> Well I once had an opportunity to microdebate John Sowa
15:18:53 <Arnia> Have to thank jcowan for giving me the paper(s) that finally made me realise what is wrong
15:19:00 <uche_> Mind you, this is what they'd call a mismatch in sports
15:19:29 <uche_> Sowa is a multiple champtionship winner, and I'm a mere rookie
15:19:42 <Arnia> Wonderful metaphor. Not sure how much I agree with Sowa either though
15:19:54 <Arnia> He's still very much an axiomatic guy
15:19:59 <uche_> Anyway, he was going on an on about how Logic is the word of god (I kid you not), and how everything can be experessed therewith
15:20:19 <Arnia> (axiomatic in the sense that a statement once made is irrefutable)
15:20:38 <uche_> I simply told him: look, as far back as Zeno they've had trouble explaining the world with all this hyper-determinism
15:20:42 <uche_> It just doesn't scale
15:20:44 <Arnia> meh... definitely don't agree with that
15:20:58 <Arnia> (don't agree with logic as the word of god)
15:21:38 <uche_> Amazingly, the audience seemed to side firmly with me
15:22:09 <Arnia> I was already uneasy with using first-order logic as a semantics for natural language thanks to Jackendoff's work and research that shows that logic is acquired as a specialisation of visual cognition
15:22:34 <uche_> Anway, that was just before Pat Hayes and co completed their task of turning RDF into a tool of hyper-determinism
15:22:45 <Arnia> Then I read Woman Fire and Dangerous things and became incredibly ill at ease... but persisted out of lack of a well formalised alternative
15:22:50 <uche_> And that move is what has been putting me heavily off RDF lately
15:23:08 <uche_> "logic is acquired as a specialisation of visual cognition"
15:23:12 <Arnia> Now I have such an alternative, I don't see why I should put up with montegue semantics
15:23:18 <uche_> Really? That's quite fascinating
15:23:22 <Arnia> uche_: Give me a sec, I'll find the reference
15:23:26 <uche_> Is the research layman readable?
15:24:24 <Arnia> uche_: The paper that contained the reference is... just a master's thesis, and a readable one at that
15:24:30 <Arnia> uche_: Should I email it to you?
15:24:56 <uche_> Montague, you mean? As in Richard?
15:25:01 <Arnia> Yes
15:25:03 <uche_> Arnia, sure, send it
15:25:11 <Arnia> uche_: Which email addy to use?
15:28:04 <Arnia> sent
15:28:09 <uche_> ta
15:28:45 <Arnia> But yeah... I'm now researching non-axiomatic logic instead
15:29:11 <Arnia> Remember sh1mmer and I did that work on situation and identity?
15:29:45 <Arnia> Well, I had great problems formalising those notions using OWL (and FOPL in general)
15:30:09 <Arnia> The formalisation just dropped out of non-axiomatic logic, neat as could be
15:31:07 <Arnia> So many of my big problems vanished when I made the switch, so I think it is a much more profitable way to go
15:31:40 <Arnia> Plus it provides a neat way to unify existing RDF and OWL based taxonomies with folksomies
15:32:13 <uche_> * uche_ rubs chin
15:32:28 <uche_> about 1/4 way throught he paper, BTW. Very readable
15:32:50 <Arnia> Ah, this paper has nothing to do with non-axiomatic logics :)
15:33:12 <uche_> Of course not
15:33:13 <Arnia> But it did make me uneasy about axiomatic (model-theoretic especially) logics
15:33:18 <uche_> But I can multitask
15:33:35 <Arnia> * Arnia accuses uche_ of being a girl ;)
15:33:47 <uche_> really?
15:33:59 <uche_> I thought it was always women who claimed men were unfocused
15:34:10 <uche_> "Are you LISTENING to me, honey?"
15:34:39 <Arnia> Women can multi-task, guys just get absent-minded :)
15:35:01 <uche_> Yet blonde women supposedly can't walk and chew gum?
15:35:20 <uche_> * uche_ thinks he and Arnia were brought up under different foul stereotypes ;-)
15:35:24 <Arnia> Don't ask me... I'm just reporting folklore
15:35:45 <Arnia> :)
15:36:25 <Arnia> I need to think of an interchange language for non-axiomatic logics
15:36:55 <sbp> cricket's off!
15:37:17 <uche_> sbp, rain?
15:37:21 <sbp> yep
15:37:31 <sbp> the pitch-covering device is cool
15:37:37 <Arnia> As convenient as narsese (the notation used in Pei Wang's work on non-axiomatic systems) is, I'm not sure whether current webby people would like a non-XML solution :)
15:37:41 <sbp> it's like a hovercraft of sorts
15:37:49 <Arnia> sbp: Giant hovercraft as Narrenschiff just told me :)
15:37:52 <sbp> they float it out to the middle of the pitch and then let it deflate
15:39:34 <Narrenschiff> GIANT HOVERCRAFT!
15:39:51 <Narrenschiff> And now it's raining.
15:40:00 <Arnia> Heh, even Narrenschiff's nick is coloured the same as Ash's
15:40:08 <Arnia> (on my box)
15:40:29 <Narrenschiff> eee?
15:44:54 <sbp> heh, just got listmail from jcowan
15:44:57 <sbp> content: 2 lines
15:45:02 <sbp> sig: 6 lines
15:57:41 <Arnia> uche_: Let me know when you've finished the paper :)
15:59:17 <uche_> got distracted by baby
15:59:25 <uche_> will probably be a bit
16:05:07 <Arnia> Fair enough. I'm going to do some voodoo and think bad thoughts about both the RDF model semantics and the microformats brigade
16:34:05 <laplink> .g "McQuary limit"
16:34:08 <phenny> "McQuary limit": http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/M/McQuary-limit.html
16:38:44 <uche_> back from the bout of daddying
16:40:13 <Arnia> Aww :)
16:42:07 <uche_> I'm still reading, but i think the keystone of what you get from this paper is section 2.2.1
16:42:09 <laplink> laplink has quit ("Leaving")
16:42:13 <uche_> And BTW, I strongly agree
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16:47:37 <Arnia> uche_: Yes. LCS has been shown to be too simplistic (not least by Jackendoff himself) but the idea of the 'logic of the mind' having that form of embedding is I think pretty much beyond doubt
16:48:04 <uche_> is there a public link to this paper?
16:49:24 <Arnia> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/bender01connecting.html
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16:54:29 <Arnia> * Arnia blames quantification
16:54:48 <bancus> bancus (n=treed@69-160-159-112.ontrca.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
16:55:14 <uche_> OK. Done
16:55:34 <uche_> The programs sections seem to be merely interesting realizations of the basic concepts
16:55:44 <uche_> I think the meat for our purposes is section 2
16:56:13 <Arnia> Yeah
16:56:39 <Narrenschiff> Narrenschiff has quit ("Leaving")
16:57:38 <Arnia> uche_: http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/peiwang/PUBLICATION/wang.logic_intelligence.pdf is definitely required reading (to grasp my position)
16:58:01 <uche_> i'll try to get to it soon
16:58:10 <uche_> have a few chjres right now, tho
16:58:14 <uche_> chores
16:58:20 <Arnia> that's fair enough
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18:25:53 <shapr> f
18:25:55 <shapr> whoops
18:26:10 <sbp> m
18:26:20 <sbp> is this asl without the a and l?
18:26:45 <shapr> Nah, f is my fetchmail alias.
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18:31:22 <schepers> schepers has quit ("Mama never loved me")
18:33:22 <kandinski> * kandinski waves happily
18:34:21 <Arnia> * Arnia waves sulkily
18:34:32 <shapr> * shapr bangs head on table.
18:34:56 <shapr> * shapr swears creatively
18:39:43 <Arnia> * Arnia reads the wikipedia article on cuths
18:39:52 <Arnia> * Arnia thinks about making corrections
18:39:54 <Arnia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Cuthbert%27s_Society
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20:00:59 <Monty> crschmidt: You asked me to remind you to sandro's email
20:01:49 <ef> ef has quit ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby")
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20:39:49 <Arnia> uche_: ayt?
20:45:44 <uche_> Arnia, for a bit now, yes
21:12:13 <typo_> typo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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21:42:56 <deltab> Lost pilot repeat starts now on Channel 4
21:48:21 <typo_> channel 4?
21:48:56 <Arnia> www.channel4.com
21:51:25 <typo_> thats some weird US-minority tv channel, right?
21:51:55 <crschmidt> No.
21:52:43 <Arnia> National terrestrial channel in the UK
21:52:53 <typo_> ah
21:52:59 <typo_> http://www.channel4.com/about_c4.html isn't very verbose
21:53:07 <typo_>
21:53:07 <typo_> If you'd like to know more about Channel 4, you're interested in working for us, or you'd like to know what kind of facilities the Channel offers for outside clients then read on and click through to the relevant area.
21:53:35 <typo_> HELLO! I've never heard about you! will you please introduce yourself!
21:53:59 <Arnia> Everyone in the UK knows about c4 though
21:54:16 <deltab> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_4
21:54:25 <Arnia> Comes from being one of the five terrestrial stations
21:56:50 <typo_> Mister, you're lucky i know what the UK is. And it isn't even Europe!
21:58:36 <Arnia> * Arnia waves an EU flag randomly
22:00:15 <typo_> did you hear the one about the british council and the pink bunny?
22:00:39 <typo_> nevermind :)
22:00:55 <Arnia> ...
22:01:06 <Arnia> Monty: deal
22:01:10 <Monty> profusion's facts specialises in critical hairy legs, apparently.
22:01:22 <typo_> Monty: countdown
22:01:22 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 50, 8, 9, 7, 7, 8. Your target is 568. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
22:01:23 <Arnia> Monty: who told you that
22:01:25 <Monty> might cook some readers even in bush
22:01:33 <typo_> argh
22:01:37 <typo_> i'm bad with fractions
22:01:52 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
22:01:54 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 1 milliseconds. I found all 60 solutions in about 197 milliseconds.
22:01:55 <Monty> ibot (9*7 + 8)*8
22:02:11 <Arnia> incidentally, Countdown was a quiz show on Channel4 :)
22:02:24 <Arnia> Word games and that number game
22:02:27 <typo_> i'm starting to really despise channel 4
22:02:29 <deltab> the first show ever shown on it, in fact
22:02:35 <typo_> yeech
22:02:48 <Arnia> Countdown has a cult appeal in the UK
22:03:02 <typo_> * typo_ is flying to london for a job interview next week
22:03:14 <Arnia> * Arnia hates London
22:03:27 <typo_> yeah, luckily i won't have to work there! :)
22:03:31 <Arnia> In the way only someone who lives around it can
22:03:53 <typo_> * typo_ eyes Berlin and San Francisco right now
22:03:56 <typo_> as potential future homes
22:04:11 <chimezie> chimezie has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:04:14 <typo_> maybe i should live in asia before that for a few years
22:04:16 <Arnia> I wouldn't mind living in Newcastle
22:04:48 <typo_> * typo_ is trying to find out where all the visionary people are moving to
22:04:55 <typo_> so i can jump the bandwagen
22:04:57 <typo_> o
22:05:14 <deltab> Oregon :-)
22:05:21 <typo_> oregon?
22:05:26 <typo_> portland, oregon?
22:05:27 <deltab> Portland, in particular
22:05:38 <typo_> why?
22:05:48 <typo_> portland, the name, sounds terribly boring
22:06:11 <typo_> except for etech i've never even heard of portland
22:06:21 <typo_> nor oregon
22:06:22 <deltab> lots of open source stuff happening there
22:06:30 <typo_> we use oregano on our pizza though
22:06:41 <typo_> so there might have come some good out of oregon in the past
22:06:59 <typo_> not even wikipedia knows portland
22:07:25 <chimezie> chimezie (n=chimezie@c-24-7-196-72.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
22:07:47 <deltab> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/05/200204&tid=186&tid=106
22:08:17 <Arnia> Portland, in the UK is a very nice place to go on holiday
22:09:04 <typo_> deltab: anything intersting happening there except for open source?
22:09:28 <typo_> If California is .com, Portland is .org in every way.
22:09:34 <typo_> ah, i think i should aim for california then :)
22:11:53 <deltab> http://overheardintheuk.com/
22:13:03 <typo_> i've become quite disillusioned with .org recently
22:15:06 <libby> libby (n=libby@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
22:18:29 <crschmidt> * crschmidt waves to chimezie
22:19:59 <chimezie> .varBound
22:20:01 <Emeka> Variables bound:
22:20:04 <Emeka> ['planetswhack', 'planetpython', 'result2', 'result1', 'slashdot', 'copia', 'planetrdf', 'chimeziesBookmarks', 'worldNews', 'planetxml']
22:20:46 <chimezie> .varBind rdfFeeds list($planetrdf,'http://del.icio.us/rss/swigbot')
22:20:48 <Emeka> Variable rdfFeeds bound to list
22:20:59 <chimezie> .news rdfFeeds
22:21:02 <Emeka> exceptions.IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'rdfFeeds'
22:21:07 <chimezie> .news $rdfFeeds
22:21:12 <Emeka> rss items with a dc:date greater than or equal to 2005-08-13:
22:21:14 <Emeka> [u'"Adding Semantics to Excel with Microformats and\nGRDDL" - http://www.mnot.net/blog/2005/08/13/excel_microformats', u'"Where Angels Fear to Tread" - http://dannyayers.com/archives/2005/08/13/where-angels-fear-to-tread/', u'"Idea management and premature commitment" - http://dannyayers.com/archives/2005/08/13/idea-management-and-premature-commitment/']
22:21:54 <chimezie> .news $copia
22:22:01 <Emeka> rss items with a dc:date greater than or equal to 2005-08-13:
22:22:03 <Emeka> [u'"Shakespeare in the Bush" - http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005/08/12#Shakespear']
22:23:05 <Arnia> Thoughts on microformats?
22:24:07 <chimezie> not very impressed - the term itself is almost cliche
22:24:49 <chimezie> or vague at the very least
22:25:11 <chimezie> .g microformats xml
22:25:13 <phenny> microformats xml: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2005/03/23/deviant.html
22:31:41 <Ash> Ash has left #swhack
22:32:14 <Arnia> Oh dear... they seem to be asking for trouble down the road
22:35:24 <Arnia> What happens if someone accidentally reuses a name?
22:35:49 <deltab> hmm, this repeat has more gore
22:36:02 <chimezie> A naming battle ensues
22:37:16 <Arnia> The need for a non-axiomatic logic library seems more pressing now
22:37:54 <Arnia> But that is at odds with the claims that these are 'simple' formats
22:38:21 <Arnia> (for computers to make sense of them at least)
22:39:04 <Arnia> Whilst I broadly support the idea of using vertical formats, I would prefer more honesty and understanding of the trade-offs
22:39:37 <chimezie> the idea is grand, but when you have a proliferation of 'microformats' it defeats the original purpose
22:40:18 <Arnia> In the end we're going to need non-axiomatic reasoning, I feel certain in that claim, but this seems to require non-axiomatics whilst still pretending that model-theoretics is sufficient
22:40:24 <Arnia> I find that quite silly
22:40:59 <chimezie> well we haven't even gotten to the point where we apply reasoning of any kind to the information models we currently use
22:41:01 <chimezie> so it's speculation
22:41:33 <Arnia> And hardly pragmatic, since the defining characteristic of the web is that it's an information free-for-all
22:44:38 <chimezie> i guess i don't see anything wrong in at least the attempt to evolve the way we model, share, and process our data collectively even if the framework isn't perfect
22:45:35 <Arnia> * Arnia is having RDF issues atm
22:45:53 <chimezie> don't let it discourage you
22:48:43 <Arnia> Oh, my issues are data-model issues
22:48:43 <Arnia> I no longer believe that RDF is capable of representing semantics
22:48:43 <Arnia> Neither is first-order predicate logic, nor any model-theoretic logic
22:49:19 <chimezie> perhaps not a perfect representation, but it's a step in the right direction
22:50:19 <chimezie> knowledge representation academics have been twidling their thumbs for decades
22:50:42 <chimezie> w/out any value for real world problems
22:51:44 <Arnia> No, it is a step in the wrong direction
22:51:55 <Arnia> Very much the wrong direction
22:52:00 <chimezie> * chimezie couldn't disagree more strongly
22:52:15 <chimezie> but then again pessimism is an addictive, communicable disease
22:53:35 <Arni1> Arni1 (n=jgeldart@128-14-101-159.adsl.legend.co.uk) has joined #swhack
22:53:52 <chimezie> it spreads at the speed of light and benefits its mouthpiece only
22:54:03 <Arnia> Arnia has quit (Nick collision from services.)
22:54:07 <Arni1> Arni1 is now known as Arnia
22:54:23 <Arnia> Please repeat from your 'I couldn't disagree more strongly'
22:54:43 <chimezie> * chimezie couldn't disagree more strongly
22:54:56 <chimezie> again?
22:55:09 <crschmidt> 18:52:15 < chimezie> but then again pessimism is an addictive, communicable
22:55:10 <crschmidt> disease
22:55:25 <Arnia> The twiddling-of-thumbs is mostly due to the route RDF is on
22:55:31 <Arnia> Model-theoretic semantics
22:55:46 <chimezie> I mean, if people are happy representing their data in relational databases (especially those with high semantic content) they are more than welcome
22:55:49 <Arnia> It is hopelessly inadequate for what people want to apply it to
22:55:59 <chimezie> actually the twiddling of the thumbs has been going on since the 60's
22:56:17 <Arnia> Yes... and model-theoretics has been around since Russel and Frege
22:56:43 <chimezie> right.. and it has had little value in solving real world problems
22:56:52 <Arnia> RDF is model theoretic!
22:56:53 <chimezie> a first step has to be made.. it doesn't have to be a perfect one.. is my point
22:57:06 <Arnia> Please please read the spec
22:57:27 <Arnia> Every single statement of RDF suffers from all the flaws, the fatal flaws IMO, of model theoretic semantics
22:57:50 <Arnia> The result is lots of incomplete, inadequate patch-work work-arounds that never actually solve the problems because people have become blind to anything existing OTHER than model-theoretics
22:58:16 <chimezie> I haven't seen the flaws articulated on any level other than the purely theoretical.. ironically enough there is no alternative to modeling data that is more than values for variables
22:59:35 <Arnia> chimezie: http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/peiwang/papers.html
22:59:59 <chimezie> yay, more papers to read
23:00:01 <Arnia> chimezie: There are definitely alternatives
23:00:18 <chimezie> realistic, well developed, alternatives?
23:00:25 <Arnia> chimezie: yes
23:00:26 <chimezie> or just academic pipe dreams?
23:00:53 <Arnia> chimezie: Given I'm writing a library for non-axiomatic reasoning and integrating it into my desktop information system I'd say the answer is yes
23:01:07 <Arnia> I view model-theoretic systems as academic pipe-dreams
23:01:08 <chimezie> well then more power to you..
23:01:24 <Arnia> RDF is currently dropping fast in my estimation
23:01:32 <chimezie> not in mine
23:01:46 <chimezie> but then we all have the right to decide how we solve our problems
23:01:50 <Arnia> Have you read Women Fire and Dangerous things?
23:02:01 <Arnia> Things
23:02:09 <chimezie> negative
23:02:15 <chimezie> i saw it mentioned earlier in here
23:02:18 <chimezie> odd title
23:03:03 <Arnia> One of the few books I'd say is essential reading for anyone involved in modelling, semantics, cognition, linguistics and the web
23:04:28 <Arnia> FOPL was never designed to be used to model the world... it was designed to formalise maths. The assumptions of FOPL are so different to the situation in the world that it is no wonder that symbolic AI has run into so many issues
23:05:13 <chimezie> Ofcourse, it's an issue only if the goal *is* to model the *world*
23:05:22 <Arnia> The fact that the brain conceptualises almost inside out to how FOPL does, and is optimised to work within the real world, becomes almost secondary to that
23:05:34 <chimezie> I've always felt model0theoretic systems work well in closed systems
23:05:40 <Arnia> chimezie: by world I mean the world as conceptualised to a person
23:06:04 <Arnia> And FOPL fails that test again, because it is monotonic and humans (and the information we work with) most definitely is not
23:06:28 <Arnia> Look at the situation with OWL-S as stands
23:06:33 <chimezie> and a majority of the low hanging fruit in knowledge management problems *are* closed world systems
23:06:37 <Arnia> Or RDFDiff
23:07:19 <Arnia> chimezie: Depends who you talk to... in the case of my research (for BT) the closed-world assumption dies a horrible death
23:07:59 <Arnia> chimezie: And please tell me what closed-world low hanging fruit you've found in the context of the world wide web
23:08:19 <chimezie> I have yet to come across a scenario (outside the context of academic conjecture) where the benefit of a model theoretic approach doensn't have immediate benefit
23:08:39 <chimezie> the context i speak of is not WWW / semantic web etc..
23:08:48 <Arnia> Process modelling
23:09:03 <Arnia> User intention and uncertainty
23:09:04 <chimezie> bioinformatics specifically is the context I've found the most value of model theoretics
23:09:14 <Arnia> Both are very very much real-world problems
23:09:23 <Arnia> BT are paying a hell of a lot of money for me to solve them
23:09:31 <Arnia> Model-theoretics just doesn't do it
23:09:59 <chimezie> i'd argue bioinformatics are more of a real world problem
23:10:44 <chimezie> there is incredible value in the information that can be learned from streamlining the process of biological/medical research simply by augmentic archaic ways of collecting information with simple closed world systems
23:10:59 <chimezie> *incredible* value
23:11:18 <Arnia> And no, I'm not suggesting we throw away RDF and play ball in my park
23:12:16 <Arnia> I have produced a version of the RDF semantics based on non-axiomatic systems expressly so all existent work can be preserved (even if more efficient, more elegant, more practical solutions are found by exploiting non-axiomatics)
23:12:24 <chimezie> well, the anti-RDF rhetoric seems to suggest that - at least whenever i encounter it
23:12:54 <chimezie> and the reason it's such a target is because the incorrect assumption is that the idea is to make it a panacea of knowledge management
23:13:02 <Arnia> This isn't rhetoric. This is well-reasoned and evidenced criticism.
23:13:17 <Arnia> I'm not looking for a panacea, I'm looking for something that works and scales
23:13:35 <Arnia> Those are the conditions that BT have, that I would have anyway
23:13:54 <Arnia> And model-theoretics are lacking horribly
23:14:08 <chimezie> and I argue that applying RDF to small / controlled information models works *and* scales.. the problem is when it is touted as the end-all of modeling / interpreting information in the web
23:14:12 <Arnia> I'm not saying it doesn't work for you, in your particular circumstances. Great if it does
23:14:39 <Arnia> I'm just contending that it doesn't work on a large family of practical, very important problems
23:15:16 <Arnia> And that the reason it doesn't work is simply because of the inherent model-theoretic assumption of complete knowledge and resource
23:16:27 <Arnia> RDF in that sense is a horribly wrong step down a road which has been time and time again shown to be inadequate for semantics
23:16:35 <Arnia> (reference Putnam's theorem)
23:16:49 <chimezie> well whenever i hear that i think of the ugly SW phrase (you know the one I speak of)
23:17:07 <Arnia> Actually, I don't
23:17:12 <chimezie> Semantic Web
23:17:16 <chimezie> * chimezie shudders
23:17:25 <Arnia> Semantics is about use
23:17:37 <Arnia> Is this structure useful
23:17:59 <Arnia> Can I combine this structure and that structure to produce a more useful structure
23:18:27 <lisppaste2> lisppaste2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:18:52 <Arnia> Unfortunately, unless you're labouring under a closed-world, monotonic, uncountably infinite resource and knowledge space... *bzzt* model theoretics fails
23:18:56 <Arnia> In some domains it works
23:19:00 <Arnia> In maths it works
23:20:18 <chimezie> well, my hope is that more people see the value in applying MT to closed-world 'legacy' (as in RDBMS) systems first instead of trying to solve the SW problem
23:20:19 <Arnia> It definitely doesn't work with the conceptual structures of natural language (see Ray Jackendoff - Foundations of Language 2002 for a good explanation) nor with visual cognition (see Roach's work)
23:20:47 <Arnia> You're presuming value and utility are monotonic with time :p
23:20:53 <Arnia> I don't believe that for a second
23:20:55 <chimezie> which I guess is related in some ways to microformats and the philosophy behind them
23:21:27 <Arnia> loggy, pointer
23:21:27 <Arnia> See http://swhack.com/logs/2005-08-13#T23-21-27
23:22:01 <chimezie> vertical , isolated structures / models, with reusable components. In order to grow larger coherent systems from prior lessons learned
23:23:40 <chimezie> im not familiar at all w/ non-axiomatic reasoning so that paper (and the contained references) is useful, thx
23:26:02 <Arnia> You can only grow coherent systems like that in an axiomatic system like MT semantics provides if you don't violate the assumptions
23:26:56 <Arnia> Such a pity that process (possibly one of the most fundamental traits of human conception and practical systems) violates one of the assumptions
23:27:43 <Arnia> Like it or not, this applies even to small, 'practical' systems
23:28:22 <Arnia> I don't think there is anyone who views the semweb as a problem to be solved... it is more a manifesto for what we want to be able to do in the future
23:28:49 <chimezie> actually , i think there are people who do see it as the 'first' problem to solve
23:28:51 <Arnia> The various 'semantic web' technologies are just possible means to achieve that
23:29:11 <Arnia> But they are, as you said, steps on a road
23:29:23 <Arnia> I just think they're taking a shortcut via a broken bridge
23:30:42 <Arnia> I prefer taking my road which is a little bit longer overall but which gives practical results (the 'scenic route') along the way and actually gets to the wonderful viewpoint at the end
23:31:21 <Arnia> If I can build paths back and forth from the dead-end road, all the better since I can get everyone to the viewpoint
23:31:32 <Arnia> And I love company in my sight-seeing :p
23:31:45 <Arnia> * Arnia suspects he's used up that metaphor
23:41:43 <lisppaste2> lisppaste2 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #swhack
23:41:43 <Monty> hi lisppaste2
23:42:54 <chimezie> .news $slashdot
23:42:58 <Emeka> rss items with a dc:date greater than or equal to 2005-08-13:
23:43:00 <Emeka> []
23:43:54 <chimezie> .query http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl "properties(owl:Restriction)"
23:43:57 <Emeka> Querying against 163 triples
23:43:59 <Emeka> set([u'<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#label>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#subClassOf>', u'<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type>'])
23:44:02 <bancus> bancus (n=treed@69-160-159-112.ontrca.adelphia.net) has joined #swhack
23:44:19 <chimezie> .query http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl "properties(owl:oneOf)"
23:44:22 <Emeka> Querying against 163 triples
23:44:24 <Emeka> set([u'<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#range>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#label>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#domain>'])
23:56:36 <chimezie> .query http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core "type(rdf:Property) |- rdfs:domain -> skos:Concept"
23:56:39 <Emeka> Ft.Xml.XPath.RuntimeException: Undefined namespace prefix: "skos".
23:57:10 <chimezie> .nsBind skos http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core
23:57:12 <Emeka> namespace prefix skos bound
23:57:20 <chimezie> .query http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core "type(rdf:Property) |- rdfs:domain -> skos:Concept"
23:57:23 <Emeka> Querying against 624 triples
23:57:25 <Emeka> [u'<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#subjectIndicator>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#hasTopConcept>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#altSymbol>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#memberList>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#prefSymbol>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#semanticRelation>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#isSubjectOf>', u'<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#member>', u'<http://www.w3.org/
23:59:22 <chimezie> .query http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core "(type(rdf:Property) |- rdfs:domain -> skos:Concept) - rdfs:label -> *"
23:59:30 <Emeka> Querying against 624 triples
23:59:32 <Emeka> [u'subject indicator', u'has top concept', u'alternative symbol', u'member list', u'preferred symbol', u'semantic relation', u'is subject of', u'member', u'in scheme']