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00:10:47 <BigJibby> hey Monty
00:10:50 <Monty> fat spanner decapitates untouched ballpoint-pens.
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00:11:18 <BigJibby> .w spanner
00:11:21 <phenny> spanner 1. a hand tool that is used to hold or twist a nut or bolt
00:12:03 <BigJibby> Monty, that's interesting please continue.
00:12:04 <Monty> .wik bare bear
00:12:11 <phenny> "Baring, Missouri" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baring
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00:38:18 <kpreid> [[[
00:38:18 <kpreid> Plutonium
00:38:18 <kpreid> Great deals on Plutonium
00:38:18 <kpreid> Shop on eBay and Save!
00:38:19 <kpreid> www.eBay.com
00:38:21 <kpreid> ]]] -- Google "Sponsored Links"
00:53:23 <nsh> lol
00:54:21 <Ash> yeah that's good stuff
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03:16:15 <Morbus> hrm.
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03:25:47 <thelsdj_> the keywords that ebay buys are pretty insane, i'd love to see someone compile a list of all the search terms ebay has bought ads for
03:42:26 <thelsdj_> http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20060405bingo.png
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03:44:34 <wallrazer> .swhack occupation
03:44:38 <phenny> wallrazer: http://swhack.com/logs/2006-03-25#T03-24-56
03:45:13 <wallrazer> .swhack _occupation
03:45:28 <wallrazer> loggy: pointer
03:45:28 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2006-04-05#T03-45-28
03:45:49 <phenny> wallrazer: No results for "_occupation".
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05:30:58 <Monty> Thank goodness, schepers is back!
05:31:01 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
05:31:01 <Monty> lolloscope
05:34:41 <est> no real chatters needed :)
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05:43:21 <Ash> est: did you see Monty say 'lolloscope'
05:43:22 <Ash> THAT WAS ME
05:43:23 <Monty> viruses and cannot be arbitrary.
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06:37:39 <bancus> roffleiron
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08:35:15 <Monty> But what does gromgull have to do with the price of fish?
08:35:18 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
08:35:25 <Monty> nsh: So it the carnage, not in Microsoft has eet net? Eet servived meny trebles beefer zis. And your mu point exactly. we grep citations 1. a monopolist
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09:55:49 <sbp> boing
09:57:59 <sbp> way to go, Firefox popup blocker
09:58:02 <sbp> you have FAILED again
10:03:30 <sbp> huh: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4878438.stm
10:03:45 <sbp> Dixons -> Currys, except online
10:03:57 <sbp> set to cost 7M, but save 3M. odd
10:04:04 <sbp> er, 3M/year
10:11:24 <sbp> ooh, Philippe and Vlad
10:12:57 <sbp> good alt text
10:14:47 <sbp> heh. "Rentzhog's group had collected 400 accounts, dating 'between 1635 and last month'." - FT
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10:15:57 <sbp> and finally, the best/worst story of the day: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1789372.html (man banned from laughing in the woods)
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11:01:29 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's supybot!
11:09:31 <nsh> @translate English German Speak of the devil, it's Monty!
11:09:31 <Monty> iirc
11:09:39 <supybot> nsh: Sprechen Sie vom Teufel, es ist Monty!
11:09:41 <Monty> "Michael Leonhard": 9,800
11:14:19 <sbp> awesome. I just got off of the phone from a conversation with someone at Leicester University who researches the ignis fatuus
11:15:34 <nsh> .wik Ignis fatuus
11:15:36 <sbp> he's one of the few people to have researched it and often gets namedropped by later researchers of the phenomenon, so I thought that contacting him was rather important
11:15:41 <phenny> "The will o' the wisp or ignis fatuus ('fool's fire') is the phenomenon of ghostly lights sometimes seen at night or in twilight hovering over damp ground in still air, often over bogs." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignis_fatuus
11:15:46 <nsh> oh, awesome
11:15:48 <sbp> good summary
11:15:49 <nsh> i saw those in finland
11:15:54 <sbp> you saw them?!
11:16:08 <nsh> well, might have been just the glowing linchen stuff
11:16:12 <sbp> ironically, he said that he'd never seen them himself and nor does he know of anyone that saw them
11:16:15 <sbp> ah, foxfire
11:16:22 <nsh> yah, that one
11:16:27 <sbp> foxfire is still great
11:16:38 <nsh> aye, but ignis would probably be awesomer
11:16:46 <nsh> what are the theories?
11:16:51 <sbp> well!
11:17:04 <sbp> we had a good old chat about it, more than ten minutes on the phone. he gave me a wealth of information
11:17:09 <nsh> cool
11:17:26 <sbp> it was absolutely amazing to be able to speak to one of probably a few people in the world who's actually academically researched the phenomenon
11:17:42 <nsh> yeah!
11:18:25 <sbp> basically, the common theory to explain it in the 20th century has been that it's marsh gas, viz methane and possibly other small chained hydrocarbons, that get ignited by hydrogen phosphane
11:18:57 <nsh> right
11:19:06 <nsh> but
11:19:13 <sbp> so what Dr. Mills did back in 1980, and what he gets namedropped for, is to test this theory and see if phosphine can indeed ignire methane
11:19:35 <nsh> hmm
11:19:40 <sbp> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_phosphide -- it's PH3
11:19:51 <sbp> "Phosphine is the common name for phosphorus hydride (PH3), also known by the IUPAC name phosphane."
11:20:12 <sbp> .compare phosphene phosphane phosphide
11:20:16 <phenny> phosphide (716,000), phosphane (77,700), phosphene (69,300)
11:20:41 <nsh> oh man, the chemical picture for that is cool
11:20:47 <nsh> looks like some sorta ghost thing
11:20:56 <sbp> anyway, he's going to send me a xerox of that original paper I think--very kind of him indeed because it's difficult to procure--but what I gather from the people that have quoted him and what he said on the phone is that the initial experiments weren't successful. he doesn't think it's a mechanism
11:21:10 <sbp> but that's not the only research he's done. he said he did two sets of research, twenty years apart
11:21:26 <nsh> "One possible naturalistic and scientific explanation for such phenomena is that the oxidation of hydrogen phosphide and methane gases produced by the decay of organic material may cause glowing lights to appear in the air. Experiments, for example, done by the Italian chemists Luigi Garlaschelli and Paolo Boschetti, have replicated the lights by adding chemicals to the gasses formed by rotting compounds. Critics claim that this theory does not easily account for
11:21:30 <sbp> so presumably the second set was in 2000. I've only just got off of the phone, as I say, so I've not chased that up yet. it was published in Weather
11:21:34 <nsh> hmm
11:21:54 <sbp> oh, interesting. I should track Garlaschelli and Boschetti's work down too
11:22:17 <sbp> indeed, Dr. Mills has the theory that it's methyl-derivatives of phosphene, with impurities, that are to blame
11:22:34 <sbp> but the problem is that these gases are potent nerve gases
11:22:40 <sbp> ten times more powerful than cyanide
11:22:49 <sbp> so, needless to say, he's unable to test his theories
11:22:52 <nsh> lol
11:22:57 <nsh> crazy
11:23:17 <nsh> i kinda like the piezo-electric theory
11:23:30 <nsh> because piezo is a cool words
11:23:36 <nsh> and quartz rules
11:23:44 <nsh> which is probably why i'm not a scientist
11:23:46 <nsh> :-)
11:23:53 <sbp> so it's a bit of an impasse given that you can't do lab research and can't do field research
11:24:03 <sbp> (sorry, scribbling notes about this elsewhere too, hence delay)
11:24:14 <sbp> heh, yeah. I like "piezoelectric" too
11:24:15 * nsh nods
11:24:19 <sbp> from Greek piezin-, to press
11:24:30 <nsh> applying for jobs here
11:24:33 <nsh> hmm
11:24:49 <sbp> I like how piezoelectricity goes both ways: if you deform quartz it produces a current; if you apply a current, it deforms it!
11:24:57 <nsh> aye
11:25:00 <nsh> it's pretty awesome
11:25:14 <nsh> i was reading some crazy phi/pyramids stuff
11:25:19 <nsh> about a year ago
11:25:32 <nsh> regarding some quartz things they found in one of the pyramids
11:25:51 <nsh> with some sort of weird harmonic/piezo-electric properties
11:26:23 <sbp> hmm
11:26:25 * nsh wonders if he can find the article again
11:26:43 <sbp> there's a lot of wacky ancient technology misgivings
11:26:47 <nsh> aye
11:26:56 <sbp> (Dr. Mills was speaking about one that he studied and debunked, indeed)
11:27:00 <nsh> oh?
11:27:07 <sbp> the Baghdad Batteries
11:27:12 <sbp> .g Baghdad Batteries
11:27:13 <sbp> .wik Baghdad Batteries
11:27:14 <phenny> sbp: http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_11.htm
11:27:23 <phenny> "The Baghdad Battery is the common name for a number of artifacts apparently discovered in the village of Khuyut Rabbou'a (near Baghdad, Iraq) in 1936." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_battery
11:27:36 <nsh> oh, read something about that recently
11:27:49 <nsh> some article of mystery artifacts
11:28:22 <sbp> basically batteries that were thought to be centuries old, but he tried to replicate them and found that they didn't really produce enough power to do anything
11:28:37 <nsh> interesting
11:28:39 <sbp> they're all potential and no work, was his summary :-)
11:29:05 <nsh> i see
11:29:19 * nsh groanuckles
11:29:37 <sbp> he seems like such an interesting guy! he's doing all this cool stuff about slightly fringe topics, but appears to be applying rigorous scientific principles to them and getting journal publications
11:29:42 <sbp> that's just so great
11:29:59 <nsh> awesome++
11:30:01 <sbp> it's interesting + scientific
11:30:07 <nsh> imdeed
11:30:21 <sbp> I haven't been this excited in ages :-)
11:30:37 * nsh smiles
11:31:29 <sbp> another thing is that often in this field that I'm researching, that of anomalous lightforms, fellow researchers tend to be very cagey and quiet about it because the danger is that you get into ufology and get discredited and so on--also because it's a very slow field with not much decent work done in it
11:31:50 <sbp> but Dr. Mills was jovial, seemed happy to lend me his time, and very thoroughly interested in all of his fields
11:31:50 <nsh> aye, tis a dangerous gamwe
11:31:56 <nsh> great
11:32:12 <nsh> sometimes science does bad things to scientists
11:32:18 <nsh> that was a big theme with asimov
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11:32:23 <sbp> sure, and vice versa :-)
11:32:27 <nsh> aye :-)
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11:34:17 * sbp does some research on all this lovely new knowledge
11:34:27 <sbp> he suggested I look up some things
11:36:33 <nsh> cool
11:36:45 <nsh> do you use any bookmark sharing thingumies?
11:37:20 <sbp> nope, I don't. I usually say I don't use bookmarks too, but actually I do *make* bookmarks quite often, I just don't consume them
11:37:29 <sbp> part of that whole recording information thing I guess
11:38:20 <nsh> yeah
11:38:24 * nsh sucks at it too
11:38:35 <sbp> I presume by Weather he meant http://www.rmets.org/publication/weather/index.php
11:39:09 <nsh> looks like a nice publication
11:39:32 <sbp> indeed!
11:39:36 <nsh> i think the weather is one of most interesting fields of natural philosophy, in terms of history
11:39:45 <sbp> their database seems to be down: http://217.158.89.12:70/rmwp
11:39:52 <nsh> it's stochastic nature has always required a most holistic approach than most sciences
11:39:54 <nsh> *its
11:39:54 <sbp> very much so
11:40:05 <sbp> did you see my little essay on Admiral FitzRoy?
11:40:11 <sbp> .g inamidst notes FitzRoy
11:40:14 <phenny> sbp: http://inamidst.com/notes/fitzroybeagle
11:40:55 <nsh> ooo
11:41:00 <sbp> hmm. the online issues only go back to 2002: http://titania.ingentaconnect.com/vl=11353271/cl=15/nw=1/rpsv/cw/www/rms/00431656/contp1-1.htm
11:41:36 <nsh> nice essay, sbp
11:41:45 <sbp> thanks!
11:41:58 <nsh> maybe if you contact them they'll provide earlier back issues
11:42:11 <sbp> hmm
11:42:12 <sbp> Results for: authors/mills and issn/0043-1656
11:42:12 <sbp>
11:42:12 <sbp> Sorry, there were no hits.
11:42:12 <nsh> especially if you offer to scan them or whatever
11:42:19 <nsh> hmm
11:42:36 <sbp> since it's a modern journal and apparently prestigious, I'd've thought my library might have a copy--but!
11:42:48 <nsh> wikipedia has a good ISSN/ISBN lookup tool
11:42:50 * nsh finds
11:42:51 <sbp> Dr. Mills very kindly said he'd send me some stuff
11:43:09 <sbp> so hopefully I may get a copy. I'm just interested to see if it's been mentioned anywhere, etc.
11:43:19 <sbp> it doesn't appear that it has, from what I can tell from a quick scan so far
11:43:37 <sbp> I actually can't find any reference to it at all yet. still looking
11:43:50 <nsh> http://dispatch.opac.ddb.de/DB=1.1/FKT=8/FRM=0028-0836/IMPLAND=Y/LNG=EN/LRSET=1/SET=1/SID=19b960d1-16/TTL=1/CMD?ACT=SRCHA&IKT=8&SRT=LST_ty&TRM=0043-1656
11:44:33 <sbp> cool. can one search within that journal?
11:44:49 <nsh> not sure
11:45:44 * sbp tries Google Scholar, as well as his university library holdings and catalogues
11:46:22 <nsh> hmm
11:46:31 <sbp> aha, it came up with it. first place to do so
11:46:47 <sbp> [[[
11:46:47 <sbp> [CITATION] Will-o'-the-wisp revisited
11:46:47 <sbp> AA Mills - WEATHER-LONDON-, 2000 - ROYAL METEOLOGICAL SOC
11:46:51 <sbp> ]]] - http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=Weather+Mills+Will-o%27-the-wisp&btnG=Search
11:47:06 <nsh> cool
11:47:13 <sbp> now, it says "CITATION" and then doesn't say what cites it
11:47:22 <nsh> yeah
11:47:22 <sbp> which is annoying, because that's sort of the point of my search :-)
11:47:23 <nsh> weird
11:47:34 <nsh> http://direct.bl.uk/bld/PlaceOrder.do?UIN=080977116&ETOC=RN&from=searchengine
11:47:39 <nsh> you can buy the article at the BL
11:48:02 <sbp> "Vol. 55 No. 7 - July 2000 [...] A.A. Mills Will-o'-the-wisp revisited. p. 239" - http://www.rmets.org/publication/weather/wea00.php
11:48:05 <sbp> nsh: neato
11:48:56 <sbp> just want to see if anything else has referenced it, though, for now
11:49:04 * nsh nods
11:49:08 <sbp> because that would imply further research or comment
11:49:17 <nsh> aye
11:49:39 <sbp> only one result: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=%22the-wisp+revisited%22&btnG=Search
11:49:44 <sbp> so I'll take that as a "nope"
11:49:57 <nsh> mmm
11:51:25 <sbp> it'll probably just take time. his previous work didn't get referenced for like ten years
11:51:37 <nsh> wow
11:51:49 <sbp> as I say, it's a very slow field
11:51:55 <sbp> you measure stuff in terms of decades
11:51:57 <nsh> so it seems
11:52:09 <sbp> (bah, my university has "Weather and Forecasting" but not Weather)
11:52:20 <nsh> pft :-)
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11:54:46 <DrBacchus> I want to major in "Weather God"
11:56:51 <sbp> with a minor in destroying villages through grande lightning bolts?
11:57:03 <nsh> awesome
12:02:42 <bjoern_> I'm free! No more exams for ... weeks!
12:02:58 <sbp> hey bjoern_. yay. how do you think you did?
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12:04:49 <sbp> diagrams up the wazoo?
12:04:59 <bjoern_> I have no idea, there were so many question I couldn't find the time to count and estimate the points...
12:05:13 <sbp> ah, one of those
12:05:36 <bjoern_> diagrams weren't too bad, I wrapped my head around them in a way and there weren't many...
12:05:57 <bjoern_> well, there was of course one diagram I never heard of before, but I think I even managed that one...
12:06:03 <sbp> heh, heh
12:06:32 <bjoern_> worse, at the end I encountered questions on the page after the last one!
12:06:37 <bjoern_> which is sort of contradictory...
12:07:00 <bjoern_> ah well, I can write it a third time if I have to, no worries...
12:07:05 <bjoern_> it's not math, after all
12:07:21 <bjoern_> the upcoming semester will be math heavy :(
12:08:07 <bjoern_> and I really need to get the maths straight this time, otherwise I'll end up working for Opera, or worse.
12:08:14 <sbp> at least with math you're either wrong or right. no qualms about it
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12:08:36 <bjoern_> I would say that, with maths, I'm either confused or confused...
12:08:41 <sbp> heh, heh
12:09:38 <bjoern_> at least this math lecture is not incredibly boring, we'll do RSA, page rank algorithm, ...
12:09:42 <sbp> .gc CH3PH2
12:09:45 <phenny> CH3PH2: 129
12:10:22 <sbp> this math lecture: one coming up, or are you in one? :-)
12:11:12 <bjoern_> well, technically the semester began 1st april, but the lectures won't begin before apr 17th
12:11:20 <sbp> ah
12:11:23 <bjoern_> (so, this semester)
12:13:04 <sbp> what's the German word for semester? I've only ever heard semester in en-us. it's term in en-gb
12:13:18 <bjoern_> Semester.
12:13:21 <sbp> ah. heh
12:14:05 <bjoern_> I guess sem is related to half and ester to year...
12:14:09 <bjoern_> .ety semester
12:14:13 <phenny> "1827, from Ger. Semester, from L. semestris, in cursus semestris 'course of six months,' from semestris 'of six months,' from sex 'six' + mensis 'month.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=semester
12:14:32 <bjoern_> close.
12:14:36 <sbp> hehe: [[[
12:14:37 <sbp> >At any rate, I was just stating that Gerald's argument was invalid,
12:14:37 <sbp> >regardless of whether he's right or wrong about the alcohol.
12:14:37 <sbp> You are undoubtedly correct in your assertion that I am wrong even if
12:14:37 <sbp> I am right. It happens to me all the time as a married man.
12:14:41 <sbp> ]]] - http://yarchive.net/explosives/cool_flame.html
12:15:59 <bjoern_> (this actually ain't a semester, we're trying to align with other international universities and shift dates around... I think this one will end 31st july, which terrifies me a bit...)
12:16:11 * bjoern_ guesses he should read up on the details of that...
12:16:14 <sbp> seems very late
12:16:43 <bjoern_> normally it would end 30th september
12:16:57 <sbp> woah
12:25:04 <bjoern_> so semester is 01.04.2006 - 31.07.2006, lectures are 24.04.2006 - 22.07.2006 and following that
12:25:04 <bjoern_> semester 01.08.2006 - 31.01.2007, lectures 04.09.2006 - 15.12.2006; well, do not need to under-
12:25:04 <bjoern_> stand that... but I hope I don't have to expect half a dozen of exams 22.07.-31.07...
12:26:02 <bjoern_> but whoa, 19 days with neither lectures nor exams, awesome!
12:26:24 <bjoern_> I should use that time to get a life.
12:27:42 <sbp> or work on finding high-period oscillators in Conway's Life
12:28:24 <bjoern_> I could also start learning maths, so I can finally pass these damn exams...
12:30:59 <sbp> "please note that the car park shown on the map as being next to our headquarters, no longer exists" - http://www.rmets.org/about/contact.php
12:31:03 <sbp> wonder where it went?
12:31:22 <bjoern_> florida?
12:33:39 * nsh smiles
12:33:50 * sbp reads http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/davy_humphrey.shtml
12:36:26 <bjoern_> cool, the computer networks lecture this semester is a remote one; so I can download the videos the day before the exam, watch them, and get a 'good' grade with no clue, like I did last time... (that lecture covered C/ASM programming and some related things...)
12:37:30 <sbp> bjoern_++
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12:44:29 <bjoern_> hmm, multimedia content analysis and semantic web seminar ... sounds interesting
12:44:32 <bjoern_> as in, "easy"
12:44:57 <bjoern_> I really hope they'll offer the python+opengl computer graphics seminar again
12:45:05 <bjoern_> but does not seem so :(
12:47:07 <bjoern_> or a crypto seminar...
12:47:18 <bjoern_> yay, more maths...
12:48:05 <JibberJim> I think you need to learn some CSS and webapis bjoern_
12:48:19 <nsh> CSS and webapis need to die
12:48:21 <bjoern_> or yeah, there is a good remote lecture for that
12:48:28 <bjoern_> I already considered that, actually...
12:50:53 <bjoern_> right, the link to the semweb/multimed one is 403...
12:51:19 <bjoern_> they kicked me out of the semweb/db-tech seminar last time already...
12:51:21 <bjoern_> bad start...
12:51:32 <crschmidt> hm
12:51:37 <sbp> kicked you out?
12:51:38 * crschmidt attempst to learn DOM
12:51:45 <sbp> you trolled them? :-)
12:51:58 <JibberJim> "you're bjoern? hmm, sorry sir, you'll have to leave"
12:52:46 <bjoern_> well, they didn't quite expect that much interest in the seminar, so they "randomly" selected all the girls and very few nerds...
12:53:58 <JibberJim> so you were ejected with all the girls - I hope you offered to talk about it instead to them?
12:54:28 <bjoern_> err, the other way round
12:55:53 <sbp> aha. not booby enough
12:55:55 <sbp> same old story
12:56:37 <crschmidt> So, I have an RSS feed, which has 'tags' as <category>tagname</category>
12:56:52 <bjoern_> kill it! now!
12:56:55 <crschmidt> and I'd like to write a script which basically just goes through, and removes any entries without a given tags
12:56:58 <crschmidt> tag*
12:57:40 <crschmidt> I figure DOM scripting is the closest way to 'right' to do this
12:57:48 <jsled> maybe something like xslt_eval(item[count(./category)>0]) ?
12:57:57 <jsled> (/me hasn't had coffee yet...)
12:58:02 <bjoern_> I was going to say XSLT is better suited for that...
12:58:21 <crschmidt> ah, okay
12:58:33 <crschmidt> someone want to actually write that? XSLT scares me
12:58:39 <crschmidt> DOM doesn't, not really...
12:58:58 <bjoern_> with DOM methods, iterate over the entries, check the tag, removeChild
12:59:02 *** Morbus (n=morbus@morbus.totalnetnh.net) has joined #swhack
12:59:10 <crschmidt> removeChild on.. the <item> ?
12:59:27 <bjoern_> same document?
12:59:29 <bjoern_> sample?
12:59:52 * bjoern_ points out swhackers were unhelpful in selecting a new keyboard...
13:00:08 <sbp> get a good one
13:00:26 <crschmidt> http://diffrentcolours.livejournal.com/data/rss
13:00:37 <crschmidt> I want to create an RSS feed, from that, with just 'openguides' entries
13:01:25 <JibberJim> I suggested a laptop bjoern_
13:01:41 <bjoern_> Yeah, but you didn't suggest where to get the money from...
13:02:02 <bjoern_> so, "remove all <item> elements that do not have <category> child whose nodeValue equals 'openguides'"?
13:02:17 * JibberJim had a recruiter asking if I knew anyone wanted to go work for MS in Dublin - you could do that
13:02:19 <crschmidt> right
13:02:21 <crschmidt> bjoern_: right
13:02:46 <bjoern_> Well, do work, get money is easy
13:03:55 <bjoern_> in XSLT you'd have the identity transformation, then add <xsl:template match="rss:item[not(category = 'openguides')]" />, done.
13:04:07 <bjoern_> with the DOM, one way would be
13:04:44 <crschmidt> doc.removeChild(doc.getElementsByTagName("item")[1]) didn't work :(
13:04:57 <crschmidt> (minidom, python)
13:05:19 <bjoern_> getElementsByTagNameNS(namespace, localname)
13:05:39 <bjoern_> call removeChild on the parentNode of the node you want to remove
13:08:17 <crschmidt> bjoern_: ah! okay, that'll probably do
13:10:03 <crschmidt> perfect!
13:11:03 <lisppaste2> crschmidt pasted "dom dom, everywhere the dom sayin..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/18653
13:13:27 <JibberJim> there's a paste bot?!?!1
13:13:31 * JibberJim never knew that
13:16:29 <sbp> ...really?
13:16:32 <sbp> it's been here for ages now
13:16:35 <sbp> .origin lisppaste2
13:16:43 <phenny> First saw lisppaste2 on #swhack at 2004-12-09 22:13:01, who then first said 'To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.'
13:16:52 <sbp> well over a year
13:18:18 <Morbus> sbp, i finally found the game we're gonna play.
13:18:25 <Morbus> i've not yet installed it, but i've been using the non-offline version for years.
13:18:34 <nsh> game goodness?
13:18:37 <Morbus> http://www.stepmaniaonline.com/
13:19:33 <nsh> .wik stepmania
13:19:46 <phenny> "StepMania is a free, open source rhythm game for Windows, Mac, and Linux created by Chris Danford." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepmania
13:19:47 <Morbus> .g stepmania morbus
13:19:50 <phenny> Morbus: http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2004/02/06/dialup.html
13:20:01 <sbp> right. you're sure this time? :-)
13:20:04 <Morbus> no.
13:20:08 <sbp> hehe
13:20:08 <Morbus> it could fail miserably <G>
13:20:22 <Morbus> i won't be right until I tell you "here's your codes for the drupal/ghyll svn."
13:20:40 <sbp> aye
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13:20:55 <Monty> Thank goodness, est_ is back!
13:20:58 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
13:20:59 <Monty> ya..knowing the mapmakers.
13:26:58 <nsh> .wik Here be dragons
13:27:17 <phenny> "It is a common misconception that the phrase 'here be dragons' was widely used in maps to denote dangerous or unexplored territories." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons
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13:30:14 <nsh> .ety legend
13:30:18 <phenny> "c.1340, from O.Fr. legende (12c.), from M.L. legenda 'legend, story,' lit. '(things) to be read,' on certain days in church, etc., from neuter plural gerundive of L. legere 'to read, gather, select' (see lecture)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=legend
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13:42:10 <sbp> great reference: "Newton's Optics, p. 318."
13:42:25 <sbp> (there are only 211 pages in Newton's Optics...)
13:43:52 <bjoern_> see, if they had identified the text with the date it was written instead of such a presentational reference, there would be no problem.
13:44:40 <jsled> [[[ Word to the Wise:
13:44:40 <jsled> Windows running on a Mac is like Windows running on a PC. That means it’ll be subject to the same attacks that plague the Windows world. ]]] - http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/
13:45:17 <jsled> heh [[[ EFI and BIOS
13:45:17 <jsled> Macs use an ultra-modern industry standard technology called EFI to handle booting. Sadly, Windows XP, and even the upcoming Vista, are stuck in the 1980s with old-fashioned BIOS. But with Boot Camp, the Mac can operate smoothly in both centuries.
13:45:17 <jsled> ]]]
13:45:27 <bjoern_> ym insults from mac users and such?
13:46:08 <sbp> date rather than presentation: heh, heh
13:46:26 <jsled> It's Apple marketing copy, though.
13:46:34 <bjoern_> since that's the only attack I'm aware of. But then I would not plug my win2k3 onto the internet without the ipcop condom in front...
13:46:40 <sbp> /1704/opticks
13:47:15 <Morbus> i had just heard about that yesterday, actually.
13:47:20 <Morbus> nice to know it wasn't a rumor.
13:47:26 <Morbus> jsled: anything else about leopard anywhere?
13:48:01 <jsled> Morbus: not that I'm aware of, but the MacBook Pro just arrived last week, and (we've) never owned a Mac before, so I'm not plugged in very deeply.
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13:48:36 <Morbus> yeah, i've been waiting on video drivers on the community hack.
13:48:46 <Morbus> but I may try this one out since it seems to have the video drivers already.
13:51:05 <sbp> okay, 1721 version runs to 382 pages. looks more promising
13:52:17 <sbp> aha, it's on p.316
13:53:43 <nsh> .calc 316 * Phi
13:53:45 <phenny> nsh: Sorry, no result.
13:53:57 <nsh> .calc 316 times the golden mean
13:54:00 <phenny> 316 times the golden ratio = 511.29874
13:55:33 <JibberJim> hmm it looks like thee BA eticket images printing aren't protected...
13:55:49 <JibberJim> but there's a lot of info encoded in them
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13:58:12 <JibberJim> still I reckon it might be possible to get a boarding pass for someone else you know is on the flight
13:58:34 <nsh> http://jajah.com/
13:58:39 <nsh> sbp, got a landline handy?
13:58:58 <JibberJim> VOIP!
13:59:09 <JibberJim> oh...
13:59:13 <nsh> this looks mighty evil..
13:59:19 <nsh> you can just throw in any two numbers
13:59:24 <nsh> and it will dial and connect them
13:59:29 <JibberJim> :-)
14:00:29 <bjoern_> they don't like my browser...
14:00:41 <bjoern_> but they tell me in german...
14:01:34 <bjoern_> hossa, the code looks crazy
14:07:41 <sbp> huh, scary
14:07:59 <sbp> bet they spam you forever
14:08:05 <nsh> probabwy
14:09:25 *** wallrazer (n=steve@ip68-104-189-211.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack
14:09:25 <Monty> lo wallrazer
14:09:34 <nsh> Monty, klein
14:09:35 <Monty> infact
14:09:44 <nsh> Monty, indeed
14:09:46 <Monty> thoughts? comments?
14:09:58 <nsh> Monty, none here
14:10:00 <Monty> modules I append to learn more logical
14:12:21 *** bjoern_ changed the topic to: "<Monty> modules I append to learn more logical"
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14:22:42 <sbp> "Processing time: 3.8863799571991 (0.84409117698669 + 2.250070810318 + 0.79221796989441) seconds" - http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/results
14:25:31 *** libby (n=libby@dsl193-115-100.fastxdsl.nl) has joined #swhack
14:26:11 <jsled> Ha! I got 3.8863799571989 seconds! My user experience is *that* much better.
14:28:05 <nsh> AWESOME
14:29:22 * sbp gets (all) the 57 issues of Notes and Queries in Project Gutenberg
14:30:42 *** SethR has parted #swhack ()
14:33:39 <bjoern_> "Processing time: 3.3637881278992 (0.22429394721985 + 2.2319931983948 + 0.90750098228455) seconds"
14:35:55 <bjoern_> "Matlab Computes the Infinite Loop in 30min" -- http://www.cvgpr.uni-mannheim.de/heiler/cgi/pyblosxom.cgi/computer/programming/fun/matlab_infinite_loop.html
14:36:07 <sbp> "Newton is reputed to have invented the cat flap. This was said to be done so that he would not have to disrupt his optical experiments, conducted in a darkened room, to let his cat in or out." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
14:39:17 <sbp> Morbus: know about this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mississauga_Blob
14:39:19 <sbp> pretty funny
14:39:35 <Morbus> lol.
14:40:03 <Morbus> that's awesome.
14:40:10 <Morbus> i'm gonna start throwing flaming frisbees.
14:41:19 <sbp> no, no. not flaming frisbees. "blobs" :-)
14:41:33 <Morbus> right. perfectly cyclindrical pockmarked blobs
14:41:36 <bjoern_> non-flaming mississauga blobs?
14:41:42 <sbp> pwdre ser blobs
14:42:18 <sbp> oh! I was transcribing an article the other day from 1777 about the Will-o'-the-wisp
14:42:27 <sbp> it had an awesome description of skyfalls in it
14:42:43 <sbp> [[[
14:42:45 <sbp> Dr Charlton's description of this in his Paradoxes has perhaps the quaintest thought on it that can be found in any language. "It is," says he, "the Excrement blown from the Nostrils of some Rheumatic Planet falling upon plains and sheep pastures, of an obscure red or brown Tawney; in consistence like a Jelly, and so trembling if touched," &c.
14:42:45 <sbp> ]]]
14:42:59 *** sbp changed the topic to: "The Excrement blown from the Nostrils of some Rheumatic Planet falling upon plains and sheep pastures"
14:43:14 *** sbp changed the topic to: ""The Excrement blown from the Nostrils of some Rheumatic Planet falling upon plains and sheep pastures" - Dr. Charlton on Star Jelly"
14:44:17 <sbp> Morbus: did you see that earlier today I spoke with someone who has been doing researching into what causes Will-o'-the-wisps? I had an amazing conversation with him
14:44:25 <Morbus> nope.
14:44:32 <sbp> his work has often been cited by later researchers, so I thought I'd better investigate
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14:45:22 <sbp> you check the logs for details: http://swhack.com/logs/2006-04-05#T11-16-46
14:45:28 <Morbus> thanks.
14:45:38 <sbp> but the summary is that he has a new theory that's untestable because it involves a powerful nerve gas
14:46:00 <sbp> we chatted about all sorts of stuff though, including the history of the wisp
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14:47:15 <bjoern_> .wik gpgpu
14:47:41 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "gpgpu".
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14:59:18 <sbp> .t America/Baltimore
14:59:21 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, I don't know about the 'America/Baltimore' timezone.
14:59:25 <sbp> .t America/Boston
14:59:27 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, I don't know about the 'America/Boston' timezone.
14:59:36 <sbp> .t America/NewYork
14:59:36 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, I don't know about the 'America/NewYork' timezone.
14:59:39 <sbp> .t America/New_York
14:59:42 <phenny> Wed Apr 5 10:54:33 EDT 2006
14:59:49 <sbp> there. that wasn't so hard, was it?
15:00:05 <DrBacchus> timezones--
15:00:12 <sbp> yeah...
15:01:06 <bjoern_> .t Germany/Mannheim
15:01:08 <phenny> bjoern_: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Germany/Mannheim' timezone.
15:01:12 <bjoern_> .t Germany/Berlin
15:01:14 <phenny> bjoern_: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Germany/Berlin' timezone.
15:01:24 <bjoern_> 5uck5
15:01:35 <bjoern_> .t Europe/Berlin
15:01:37 <phenny> Wed Apr 5 16:56:28 CEST 2006
15:01:52 <bjoern_> .t Europe/Mannheim
15:01:55 <phenny> bjoern_: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Europe/Mannheim' timezone.
15:01:59 <bjoern_> .t Mannheim
15:02:01 <phenny> bjoern_: Sorry, I don't know about the 'Mannheim' timezone.
15:02:06 <bjoern_> long road to go...
15:03:50 <bjoern_> "OpenGL Tutorial Day - Advanced Visual Effects with Advanced Visual Effects with OpenGL OpenGL" -- http://www.ati.com/developer/techpapers.html#gdc06
15:04:14 <bjoern_> I I suspect suspect removing removing redundant redundancy might might help help a bit bit.
15:04:19 *** DrBacchus has parted #swhack ("Don't wait up for me")
15:06:26 <bjoern_> .ety criterion
15:06:28 <phenny> "1661, from Gk. kriterion 'means for judging, standard,' from krites 'judge.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=criterion
15:06:43 <bjoern_> .ety criterium
15:06:45 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "criterium". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=criterium
15:07:03 <bjoern_> .ety criteria
15:07:06 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "criteria". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=criteria
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16:06:41 <sbp> .cp em space
16:06:44 <phenny> 2003: EM SPACE ( )
16:06:47 <phenny> 2004: THREE-PER-EM SPACE ( )
16:06:50 <phenny> 2005: FOUR-PER-EM SPACE ( ) [...]
16:07:40 <sbp> .char ae
16:07:41 <sbp> .char a:e
16:07:42 <phenny> æ - Latin Small Letter Ae (æ)
16:07:43 <phenny> a - Latin Small Letter A (a)
16:11:11 <sbp> .cp alpha with
16:11:13 <phenny> 0386: GREEK CAPITAL LETTER ALPHA WITH TONOS (Ά)
16:11:16 <phenny> 03AC: GREEK SMALL LETTER ALPHA WITH TONOS (ά)
16:11:19 <phenny> 1D90: LATIN SMALL LETTER ALPHA WITH RETROFLEX HOOK (ᶐ) [...]
16:11:36 <sbp> .cp grave accent
16:11:38 <phenny> 0060: GRAVE ACCENT (`)
16:11:41 <phenny> 02CB: MODIFIER LETTER GRAVE ACCENT (ˋ)
16:11:43 <sbp> .cp combining.*grave
16:11:44 <phenny> 02CE: MODIFIER LETTER LOW GRAVE ACCENT (ˎ) [...]
16:11:46 <phenny> 0300: COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT (◌̀)
16:11:49 <phenny> 030F: COMBINING DOUBLE GRAVE ACCENT (◌̏)
16:11:52 <phenny> 0316: COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT BELOW (◌̖) [...]
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16:35:15 <wallrazer> sbp: i've been meaning to ask... what the hell do you people do all day that you need unicode codepoints?
16:35:45 <wallrazer> i mean, talk about the features I would NOT be looking for in an IRC bot... :-)
16:45:45 <sbp> wallrazer: that, specifically, was for the Greek in http://inamidst.com/lights/wisp mentioned just after the word "vildraadage"
16:45:58 <sbp> it turned out that I was looking for this:
16:46:02 <sbp> .cp ^1F01
16:46:04 <phenny> 1F01: GREEK SMALL LETTER ALPHA WITH DASIA (ἁ)
16:46:08 <sbp> with a bit o' help from patbam
16:46:37 <bjoern_> .cp combining dasia
16:46:39 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'combining dasia'.
16:46:45 <bjoern_> .cp combining dia
16:46:48 <phenny> 0308: COMBINING DIAERESIS (◌̈)
16:46:51 <phenny> 0324: COMBINING DIAERESIS BELOW (◌̤)
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16:48:02 <patbam> .cp psili
16:48:06 <phenny> 0313: COMBINING COMMA ABOVE (◌̓)
16:48:09 <phenny> 0486: COMBINING CYRILLIC PSILI PNEUMATA (◌҆)
16:48:12 <phenny> 1F00: GREEK SMALL LETTER ALPHA WITH PSILI (ἀ) [...]
16:48:39 <bjoern_> I should write my name like <p style='font-family: Arial Unicode MS'>Bjö̤rn</p> ...
16:48:55 <wallrazer> sheesh. you guys are way too smart for me.
16:49:19 *** bear is now known as bear_afk
16:50:23 <sbp> bjoern_: ha! where'd you pull that from?
16:50:55 * bjoern_ shrugs
16:50:55 <bjoern_> isn't it terribly obvious? :)
16:51:34 <patbam> wallrazer: the main issue is that sometimes there are two ways to encode a "letter" in unicode, either as a single point or as a pair of points
16:53:38 * sbp does grep -Iir 'Arial Unicode MS' * on inamidst just in case he's the cause of the ridiculousness
16:53:47 <sbp> not this time
16:53:59 <sbp> I'd've used a trailing semicolon in the @style, anyway
16:54:08 <bjoern_> geesh, I ordered my sata drive, the ram, the cpu paste and the graphic tablet on saturday, and it's still not there...
16:54:08 * bjoern_ should draw his own font, but without a proper input device, that's a non-starter...
16:54:09 <patbam> so if you look at the results for grepping 'psili' (which is a greek accent mark of some sort, i take it) on the unicode db, you see that there is a "combining" form that you can stick on an independent alpha and then a "precombined" form with alpha with its own little psili
16:54:13 <sbp> and quotes around the font name, as is required
16:54:17 <bjoern_> uuh, I just made the code up sbp
16:54:22 <bjoern_> it's not!
16:54:29 <sbp> so is!
16:54:43 <bjoern_> it's not!
16:54:50 <bjoern_> I should have used a generic family as last alternative though.
16:54:52 <sbp> only the spec will decide!
16:55:01 <bjoern_> the spec says quotes are optional!
16:55:02 <sbp> yeah. but that might be further up in the cascade
16:55:04 <sbp> where?
16:55:44 <bjoern_> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#font-family-prop
16:55:57 <bjoern_> "Font names containing any such characters or whitespace should be quoted: ..."
16:56:32 * bjoern_ prepares for the next great rfc2119 flamewar...
16:56:55 <sbp> oho, should
16:56:59 <wallrazer> sbp: yeah, you have to quote font names with spaces...
16:57:06 <bjoern_> should means optional, you know it!
16:57:10 <sbp> and if not they'll be normalised in the whitespace
16:57:25 <sbp> it means that if you don't do it, you are a FOOL BASTARD
16:57:28 <sbp> in Codyspeak
16:57:50 <bjoern_> 1311113!!!
16:58:13 <bjoern_> my cod'z are fully proper.
16:58:26 <sbp> proz to yo coedz mah man! 8175981751!
16:58:31 <sbp> er, propz
16:58:33 <sbp> loelz
16:58:51 <bjoern_> yay, peace to you
16:59:31 <sbp> may some excrement blown from the nostrils of some rheumatic planet fall upon and grace your shoulders
17:01:02 <sbp> eek, Gene Pitney's died
17:01:10 <sbp> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4878926.stm
17:01:42 *** mumbles is now known as mumbles-out
17:03:53 <sbp> didn't know he was touring here
17:05:57 <sbp> uh. so I search Amazon for [Phipson Phosphorescence], and it says: "All Products search: we were unable to find exact matches for your search for "poison" . Would you like to search again?"
17:10:56 *** MoiraA has quit (Remote closed the connection)
17:12:05 *** MoiraA (i=debian-t@tor/session/x-4505feac1d27663d) has joined #swhack
17:17:57 <Kragen> so if i have a huge pile of images and i want to crop each of them to only include the merchandise of interest
17:18:10 <Kragen> if i do it with the gimp, it will take forever becasue i'll spend all my time loading and saving files
17:18:14 <Kragen> is there a better way?
17:19:35 <jsled> Kragen: ImageMagick?
17:19:54 <Kragen> jsled: you mean, like convert -crop?
17:19:57 <jsled> yah.
17:20:11 <Kragen> each image gets cropped to different coordinates
17:20:35 <crschmidt> Kragen: I'm not sure how you plan to do it without loading/saving the files...
17:20:50 <crschmidt> Unless you mean "all my time navigating open/save dialogs"...
17:20:53 <Kragen> crschmidt: i'm happy to load and save the files. i just don't want that to require a lot of interaction on my part.
17:21:09 <Kragen> jsled: it's entering the coordinates that's the hard part. thanks to imagemagick and netpbm, actually making the crops is trivial.
17:21:21 <Kragen> crschmidt: yes, exactly
17:21:34 <sbp> couldn't you do for fn in *.[...]; do gimp --auto-save-on-close $fn?
17:21:41 <sbp> or whatever the functional equivalent is
17:21:56 * jsled nods
17:22:12 <crschmidt> Kragen: I'd just copy all the files to a seperate location, tell gimp to open all the files (gimp * in the directory should do that?), then it's just a single keystroke to save
17:22:16 <crschmidt> once the images are cropped
17:22:19 <sbp> that's what I do when wanting to edit lots of text files in series for some reason
17:22:32 <crschmidt> but maybe i'm underestimating gimp's ability to DTRT wrt command line
17:22:40 <Kragen> hm, ok
17:23:06 <Kragen> i'll give it a try
17:24:13 <Kragen> thanks!
17:31:56 *** ows (n=600@a83-132-98-42.cpe.netcabo.pt) has joined #swhack
17:31:59 <ows> hi fellows
17:32:16 <ows> can you recommend some tv humoristic shows? :)
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17:33:15 *** shawnb (n=shawnbro@pool-138-88-249-215.res.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
17:35:13 <patbam> the recent rash of giant-centipede-devouring-little-white-mice vids are pretty hilarious.
17:36:05 *** libby has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:37:04 <Kragen> patbam: really? i find them somewhat horrifying
17:46:14 *** jcowan (n=John@mercury.ccil.org) has joined #swhack
17:46:58 <jcowan> Ittywhonk!
17:52:17 <patbam> Kragen: i keed :)
17:52:20 <patbam> me too
17:52:27 <patbam> lost a fair amount of sleep over them in fact, heh
17:58:30 *** DrBacchus (n=rbowen@63.174.94.2) has joined #swhack
17:58:30 <Monty> yo DrBacchus!
18:00:15 <DrBacchus> Hiya
18:09:45 <Kragen> heh
18:12:33 <DrBacchus> Yo, Monty!
18:12:35 <Monty> squares is conversational and floating!!!
18:42:02 <wallrazer> you know, we could rename monty to Morbus, and the net incomprehensibility value of #swhack would not change
18:42:03 <Monty> imdeed
18:42:42 *** native_language is now known as raxor
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18:56:04 <bancus> wallrazer: I think it would be amusing to see people trying to talk to Morbus under those circumstances.
18:57:57 <Arnia> loggy, pointer
18:58:44 <Arnia> Or not
18:58:54 <Arnia> Someone care to fill me in?
19:00:03 <jcowan> [[[
19:00:04 <jcowan> wallrazer you know, we could rename monty to Morbus, and the net incomprehensibility value of #swhack would not change
19:00:09 <jcowan> bancus wallrazer: I think it would be amusing to see people trying to talk to Morbus under those circumstances
19:00:11 <jcowan> ]]]
19:00:11 <Monty> yeah theAge's is a queue to me doubt my changes might take forever in winter though still dissapointed that will pick it going?
19:01:09 <wallrazer> bancus: it would be amusing, though it may take them a while to figure it out
19:03:22 <Arnia> That is a cool metric. How would one calculate the net incomprehensibility value (NIV) for #swhack?
19:04:12 <bancus> We could probably come up with some kind of scale.
19:04:20 <bancus> Find a standard and call that Zero Monties
19:04:30 <wallrazer> well, you'd have to have an algorithm first
19:04:46 <bancus> Not really.
19:04:53 <bancus> It can be subjective for a while.
19:04:54 <jcowan> The ratio of M*nty and that other bot's posts to total posts.
19:06:03 <wallrazer> so is it assumed that any individual statement by either M*nty, and the other bot have an equal incomprehensibility value?
19:06:03 <bancus> by wallrazer's definition, that wouldn't work
19:06:06 <Arnia> jcowan: Would be nice to be able to generalise it to other channels though
19:06:29 <bancus> It'd probably be better to rate actual content.
19:06:40 *** DrBacchus has parted #swhack ("Don't wait up for me")
19:06:42 <bancus> Because some of what actual people say can be pretty incomprehensible too.
19:06:46 <wallrazer> otherwise you'd have to be able to rate a statement's IV
19:06:54 <jcowan> Too hard.
19:07:03 <Arnia> wallrazer: We should define a weighting matrix really... the Generalised Net Incomprehensibility Value (GNIV)
19:07:33 <jcowan> loggy, pointer?
19:07:34 <bancus> We couldn't create a database of randomly sampled content and have people rate it based on its comprehensibility?
19:07:38 <wallrazer> true. so the units are M*nty's then?
19:07:42 <wallrazer> loggy: pointer
19:07:42 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2006-04-05#T19-07-42
19:07:48 <jcowan> bancus: only if we rewarded them with FREE PR0N
19:07:56 <bancus> That could be arranged.
19:07:58 <jcowan> a la the Mechanical Greek
19:09:03 <Arnia> Hmm... the problem is that surrealist statements are usually, on the surface, very comprehensible. It is just the next level down which makes no sense
19:09:18 <Arnia> But then the levels below that tend to be sensical again
19:10:12 <wallrazer> then ther's the issue of whether the observer is qualified to provide a valuable IV?
19:10:12 <Arnia> So what we need is to define a two-valued comprehensibility measure... depth (the layer at which the statement goes ga-ga) and width (the number of inferences until sanity is restored)
19:10:26 <wallrazer> i.e., you couldn't lket Morbus himself participate
19:11:23 <wallrazer> so what would a sample depth and width rating for m*nty be?
19:11:47 <Arnia> (0,inf)
19:11:49 <wallrazer> (this channel would get even weirder if M*nty recognized off-by-one spellings of his name)
19:12:00 <Arnia> Which provides the base-line really
19:12:08 <wallrazer> Arnia: ah, true
19:12:21 <wallrazer> .cp infinity
19:12:24 <phenny> 221E: INFINITY (∞)
19:12:27 <phenny> 29DC: INCOMPLETE INFINITY (⧜)
19:12:30 <phenny> 29DD: TIE OVER INFINITY (⧝) [...]
19:12:42 <Arnia> I'd love to tie over an incomplete infinity
19:12:48 <Arnia> Just for being so incompetant
19:13:01 <wallrazer> now if i only knew how to type that into colloquy
19:14:02 <Arnia> NIV(Monty) = <0,∞>
19:14:10 <Monty> http://dispatch.opac.ddb.de/DB=1.1/FKT=8/FRM=0028-0836/IMPLAND=Y/LNG=EN/LRSET=1/SET=1/SID=19b960d1-16/TTL=1/CMD?ACT=SRCHA&IKT=8&SRT=LST_ty&TRM=0043-1656
19:14:15 <Arnia> As that proves
19:14:34 * wallrazer rotfls
19:15:14 <wallrazer> it'd be fun to add the rating function to a bot, so you could ask it questions about a particular user, statement, or channel
19:15:17 <Arnia> We could even define satire as being all those off-by-one pairs
19:15:34 <Arnia> Which allows us to rate someone's satirical nature :p
19:15:43 <wallrazer> arnia: ooooh, satire!
19:16:04 <Arnia> Or would off-by-one be sarcasm...
19:16:06 <Arnia> Hmm
19:16:14 <wallrazer> hm.
19:16:44 <wallrazer> satire would be "m*nty: something he might say but is a satire"
19:17:12 <wallrazer> i.e., making a statement in m*nty's "voice"
19:17:40 <wallrazer> whereas "gee, m*nty is making sense today" would be sarcasm
19:18:54 <jcowan> Sometimes (by chance) it's the literal truth.
19:18:57 <jcowan> Monty?
19:18:59 <Monty> cool, the Aussies for reals
19:19:06 <jcowan> Not so much.
19:19:59 *** raxor has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:20:32 <wallrazer> well, that doesn't really matter, since anything monty says still rates as (0, inf)
19:20:36 <Monty> jolly Perl sperm admits responsibility for chequered Mancunian favours...?
19:20:40 <wallrazer> by definition
19:20:44 <wallrazer> point made
19:22:17 *** JibberJim (n=none@82-43-185-38.cable.ubr07.newm.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
19:28:27 * wallrazer leaves to play quake. biab
19:28:31 *** wallrazer has quit ()
19:30:10 *** ows has parted #swhack ()
19:32:07 <Arnia> But can we generalise that away from satires and sarcasms about Monty
19:32:07 *** Arnia has quit (Excess Flood)
19:32:07 <Monty> hmz
19:32:33 *** Arnia (n=jgeldart@138-37-101-159.adsl.legend.co.uk) has joined #swhack
19:37:48 <sbp> Arnia: hello; also:
19:37:52 <sbp> loggy: pointer?
19:37:52 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2006-04-05#T19-37-52
19:38:36 <Arnia> danke
19:41:28 <jcowan> loggy ignores lines beginning with "loggy,"; how rude.
19:41:54 <Arnia> loggy, mind your manners!
19:42:04 <jcowan> loggy: mind your manners!
19:42:08 <jcowan> Bah.
19:42:16 *** wallrazer (n=steve@ip67-88-140-254.z140-88-67.customer.algx.net) has joined #swhack
19:42:32 <wallrazer> loggy: pointer
19:42:32 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2006-04-05#T19-42-32
19:43:01 <Arnia> retniop :yggol
19:43:20 <Arnia> May we have all bots accept commands back to front please? :)
19:43:41 <wallrazer> Arnia: perhaps
19:43:43 <jcowan> pleh :ynnehp
19:43:55 <jcowan> Behold the power of the right-arrow key.
19:44:05 <Arnia> dedulcni ytnom
19:44:10 <wallrazer> "off-by-one: blargh foo" might be satire,
19:44:36 <wallrazer> while "blagh foo off-by-one bar quux" might be sarcasm
19:44:51 <wallrazer> but you might have to limit the characters that could be used
19:44:59 <wallrazer> to prevent serious mispellings
19:45:07 <wallrazer> s/serious/geniune/
19:45:09 <Arnia> Conversations with the (0,inf) always make me wonder. What does a chequered mancunian flavour taste like?
19:45:31 <wallrazer> M8nty: the null and the infinite
19:45:33 <jcowan> I don't know. Go find a Mancunian, chequer him, and taste. :-)
19:45:36 <Arnia> what, like this
19:46:17 <Arnia> jcowan: Yeah, I know what normal mancunian tastes like. I just need to chequer the guy now
19:46:23 <jcowan> Bingo.
19:46:39 * jcowan suggests Marks & Spencer chequered paint.
19:46:51 <jcowan> Not cheap, but effective.
19:47:02 <Arnia> jcowan: I may buy some poker dot paint too. Then I can try half and half
19:47:12 <wallrazer> oh, here's a problem:
19:47:23 <jcowan> .gc "poker dot"
19:47:26 <phenny> "poker dot": 40,000
19:47:29 <jcowan> Wow!
19:47:29 <wallrazer> the previous conversation was very sureal and in a general way, quite incomprehensible
19:47:45 <Arnia> That should, of course, have been polka dot
19:47:51 * Arnia now wants a poker dot
19:47:56 * Arnia sticks a poker in wallrazer
19:48:04 <wallrazer> hey, watch it now
19:48:05 <Arnia> ad nauseum
19:49:05 <wallrazer> but it was internally consistent (after a fashion) which i posit to be a trademark of meta-incomprehensibility
19:49:24 <Arnia> That is what I meant by width
19:49:34 <wallrazer> maybe the GNIV tracker needs a ++ operator
19:49:37 <sbp> Marks and Sparks sell chequered paint?
19:49:50 <sbp> I didn't even know they sold paint, but it wouldn't surprise me
19:49:50 <Arnia> All statements with a finite width are comprehensible to a sufficiently advanced pan-dimensional being
19:49:53 <wallrazer> " this channel is tending towards more incomprehensibility"
19:49:53 <Arnia> Or a dolphin
19:50:56 <Arnia> Gingham paint
19:51:02 <Arnia> That's a horrible concept
19:51:16 * Arnia paints Monty in red, pink and white gingham
19:51:16 <Monty> do funky features I hate the ignis would probably wrong with Redditogami for porn site tells me how do MMS, but i've played...
19:51:52 * wallrazer 's mind boggles at the single-step increae in the GNIV
19:52:03 <wallrazer> it's like the IID
19:52:13 <Arnia> IID?
19:52:21 <wallrazer> (infinite improbabability drive)
19:52:27 <Arnia> Ah
19:52:28 <wallrazer> dammit
19:52:30 <wallrazer> (infinite improbability drive)
19:52:44 * Arnia passes through all points in Monty's GNIV space simultaneously
19:52:44 <Monty> eval escapes regular .... right dictionary has disappeared too early 20th century is taht
19:52:48 <Arnia> FRABJOUS!
19:53:28 <jcowan> s/Marks & Spencer/Winsor & Newton/
19:53:39 * jcowan is but an abject Yank, after all.
19:53:51 <wallrazer> so, would (1,1) represent an objectively logical state or statement?
19:54:14 <wallrazer> or would it be (inf, 0)
19:54:52 <Arnia> wallrazer: No, (1,1) is a statement which loses meaning at the second and third level only
19:55:12 <jcowan> [[[
19:55:13 <jcowan> Where did this name for round circles of dye on clothing originate? And what, if anything, does it have to do with the dance of the same name?
19:55:13 <jcowan> In the 1840s, the polka was sweeping America. It was the latest dance craze, like the Charleston of the 1920s or the Macarena of a few summers ago. In an effort to cash in on the fad, manufacturers began naming all sorts of thing polka. Polka gauze, polka hats, polka curtain bands and many other products with the polka name hit the market in the 1840s. Although, the actual term polka dot is not attested to until 1866. Of these, only polka dots survive tod
19:55:13 <jcowan> ay.
19:55:13 <Arnia> wallrazer: (0,0) is the statement which is meaningful in total
19:55:14 <jcowan> The term polka dot first appears in the New York Times on 21 Sep 1866: "It is effectively trimmed with anumber of rows of silk galloon of the same shade, with black or white brocaded polka dots."
19:55:17 <jcowan> There are two possible origins for the word polka. It could come from the Czech pulka, or half-step, Pul meaning half. Or, it could be a combination of the polonaise and mazurka.
19:55:20 <jcowan> ]]]
19:55:55 <jcowan> The term "poker dot" is not unknown, although most ghits are to "poker dot-coms" and such.
19:56:03 <wallrazer> huh.
19:56:29 <wallrazer> swo what's the value pair again?
19:56:50 <Arnia> The span covered by (d,w) is the insanity span. Where d is the start level and w is how wide the level is
19:56:57 <Arnia> *wide the span is
19:57:00 <wallrazer> would be fun to scatty plot a channel's GNIV over time
19:57:09 <Arnia> So (0,0) has no insanity
19:57:26 <Arnia> Neither does (inf,inf) and you could claim that they are the same point
19:57:33 <wallrazer> so in what case would the first value be non-zero?
19:57:34 <Arnia> Which would have an interesting topology...
19:58:29 <Arnia> (1,1) would be a statement which seems sensible until one inference (designated as one operation from the set 'deduction', 'induction', 'abduction' and 'exemplification') is performed when it seems nonsense until another inference is performed
20:00:01 <Arnia> Likewise (1,2) would require two steps
20:00:27 <Arnia> (2,1) would require one step to return to sanity after losing it after two steps
20:00:29 <Arnia> Etc
20:01:35 * wallrazer would need some examples - we're getting a bit concrete for somethingas abstract as "how incomprehensible is this statement?" ;-)
20:02:41 <Arnia> For example... "Monty got married last week" is a statement which goes insane after one step (where Monty is substituted for 'computer program')
20:02:46 <Monty> Lives on my scooter tomorrow, while he tried those settings - http://www.rmets.org/about/contact.php
20:03:06 <Arnia> *substituted with
20:03:23 <wallrazer> so the first value is 1
20:03:31 <Arnia> Yes
20:03:52 <wallrazer> or is it 0, because it's ONLY at level 0 that it makes sense?
20:04:06 <jsled> Or is it -1, because Monty says so?
20:04:09 <Arnia> No, 1, because 1 is the start of the mad span
20:04:11 <Monty> Dr Charlton's description here: http://bsittler.livejournal.com/10381.html (sorry about fixing it? :)
20:04:20 <Arnia> Monty: No, that's quite alright
20:04:21 <Monty> emphasising megaphone!
20:04:31 <wallrazer> ok, that was a 0 ;-)
20:04:32 <Arnia> Monty: Most megaphones do
20:04:33 <Monty> semester in one? :-)
20:07:39 <wallrazer> so what's an example of width?
20:09:08 <Arnia> If I were to say "Monty is a really smart person". First step substitutes Monty with computer program so it goes mad. Second step substitutes smart person with stupid bot (by sarcasm). So this is (1,1)
20:09:10 <Monty> So how google links that get your site, ikea?
20:10:03 <wallrazer> i thought depth was the number of steps/levels, and width was some other unit
20:10:28 <Arnia> Width is the number of steps required to restore sanity
20:10:39 <wallrazer> ah
20:11:03 <wallrazer> so perhaps its more like (depth, extent)
20:11:10 <Arnia> yeah
20:11:11 <Arnia> Ok
20:11:15 <wallrazer> down one to madness, down one more to sanity
20:11:34 * Arnia can't believe we're trying to quantify incomprehensibility
20:12:04 <wallrazer> (0,3) ;)
20:12:10 <wallrazer> or 3-ish
20:12:30 <Arnia> Is mad until you think three levels in?
20:12:34 <Arnia> Ok, can accept that
20:12:40 <wallrazer> out of context, arnia's statement is incomprehensible
20:13:09 <wallrazer> step one, backtrack to find aquanitfy
20:13:14 <wallrazer> quantify
20:13:29 <wallrazer> step 2, backtrack to grok the GNIV
20:13:49 <wallrazer> so may be is around 25
20:13:51 <wallrazer> 2.5
20:14:07 <wallrazer> and +.25 for wallrazer's mad typing
20:15:05 <Arnia> Hah
20:15:42 *** danja (n=danja@host235-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #swhack
20:16:22 <Arnia> danja? Hmm... (5,1)
20:16:58 <wallrazer> 'splain your IV for that statement
20:17:24 <Arnia> My statement was (0,inf)
20:17:34 <danja> bugger of crossword clue
20:17:54 <wallrazer> i thought (5,1) was the IV
20:18:18 <Arnia> No, my statement itself had a GNIV of (0,inf)
20:19:08 <wallrazer> huh. it would appear that by definition, any statement out of context can have a very high IV
20:19:23 *** under is now known as xover
20:19:35 *** ex-over is now known as under
20:19:42 * danja wonders whether better to check logs for enlightenment, or just enjoy the show...
20:20:09 * jcowan goes off to find "aquanitfy".
20:20:15 *** xover is now known as ex-over
20:21:37 <danja> damn, so they finally put that acid in the reservoir
20:22:31 <wallrazer> .swhack GNIV
20:22:53 <phenny> wallrazer: No results for "GNIV".
20:22:59 <wallrazer> wtf
20:23:38 <crschmidt> it's based on the indexed logs
20:23:46 <crschmidt> you've only mentioned GNIV in the past hour
20:23:49 <crschmidt> so it has not yet been indexed
20:24:19 <Arnia> loggy: POINTER!
20:24:33 <wallrazer> loggy: pointer
20:24:33 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2006-04-05#T20-24-33
20:24:41 <wallrazer> loggy is not nearly as forgiving as phenny
20:24:55 <Arnia> It is a cruel mistress
20:25:08 * Arnia gives loggy some chains and a latex-free gimp suit
20:25:19 <wallrazer> .swhack incomrehensibility
20:25:22 <wallrazer> dammit
20:25:28 <wallrazer> .swhack incomprehensibility
20:25:36 <Arnia> Ahem... I think I need to watch a film to get my brain back to normal levels
20:25:52 <phenny> wallrazer: No results for "incomrehensibility".
20:25:53 <Arnia> Been working on this paper for nine hours :/
20:25:59 <phenny> wallrazer: No results for "incomprehensibility".
20:26:12 <wallrazer> aw.
20:26:33 <jcowan> "There's glory for you!"
20:26:57 <wallrazer> Arnia: been fun!
20:27:00 <Arnia> Glory glory hallelujah
20:27:05 <wallrazer> now we need crschmidt to code up the gniv bot
20:27:19 * Arnia makes puppy-dog eyes at crschmidt
20:27:24 <crschmidt> make sbp do it
20:27:27 <crschmidt> unless you're offering cash
20:27:49 * Arnia hands Monty a botsnack
20:27:49 <Monty> insouciant 1. two-winged insects characterized by a big pimpin with him something, but progressing.
20:27:59 <Arnia> Nice definition there...
20:28:16 <Arnia> Although I'm not sure I want to see a big pimpin
20:30:43 <bancus> whoa
20:30:45 <bancus> nice thunder
20:30:55 <bancus> sounded like it was right above me
20:31:13 *** jcowan changed the topic to: "<Monty> insouciant 1. two-winged insects characterized by a big pimpin with him something, but progressing."
20:32:30 <danja> ah "gniv no incomprehesible very"
20:32:52 <jcowan> Ghu!
20:32:57 <Arnia> Ghee!
20:33:00 <jcowan> Just received, not apparently a spam: [[[
20:33:01 <jcowan> From: Borland <activation@borland.com>
20:33:01 <jcowan> To: cowan@ccil.org
20:33:01 <jcowan> Subject: Borland Product Registration
20:33:01 <jcowan> Date: 5 Apr 2006 12:59:32 -0700
20:33:01 <jcowan> THIS IS AN AUTO-GENERATED MESSAGE - PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE
20:33:03 <jcowan> The following error occurred:
20:33:05 <jcowan> Internal Error. (1)
20:33:07 <jcowan> Please try other registration methods.
20:33:09 <jcowan> ]]]
20:33:19 <jcowan> Needless to say, I have not attempted to register any Borland products.
20:33:37 <danja> aye, you don't want internal error
20:34:19 * danja used to have fun with delphi
20:34:46 * Arnia is waiting for a matlab license so he can run his experiments
20:34:59 <danja> experiments?
20:35:21 <danja> this involve the leather
20:35:21 <kpreid> .gc "it is an ex-periment"
20:35:22 <danja> ?
20:35:25 <phenny> "it is an ex-periment": 6
20:36:14 <Arnia> danja: Nah, much more dull I'm afraid. I'm working on using self-organising maps to provide semantics for web-services
20:36:30 <Arnia> danja: Which is fascinating in its own way, but doesn't involve leather
20:36:37 *** bear_mtg is now known as bear
20:36:50 <danja> i think kohonen mentions leather...
20:37:19 * Arnia digs out Kohonen's book
20:37:25 <uche_> jcowan, I noticed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_Soup that there's no mention of your project
20:37:27 * danja too
20:37:55 <uche_> I'm writing a brief article HOWTO for Tag Soup, BTW
20:38:05 <Arnia> No, no leather. Just Levenshtein
20:38:45 <jcowan> uche_: Wonderful. Please consider adding a link from the WP page too. (If I do it, it'll look like a vanity link.)
20:38:57 <jcowan> http://www.tagsoup.info is the canonical URL
20:40:35 <danja> texture analysis, pp236,299
20:41:29 <danja> jcowan, have you spent any time with tag soup in the last few months?
20:42:05 <danja> (your tag soup)
20:43:43 <jcowan> Not really, only with the mailing list.
20:43:44 <jcowan> Alas.
20:43:52 * jcowan wishes he had more time/energy for it.
20:44:00 <jcowan> When I have time, as right now, I don't have the energy.
20:45:01 <Arnia> danja: Only mentions paper in my version (3rd edition)
20:45:34 * danja has 2nd, unexpurgated
20:45:53 <Arnia> Shame... that would have been interesting
20:46:12 <Arnia> danja: are you going to BPM2006 by any chance (outside chance, but still)
20:46:32 <danja> er, not as far as I'm aware - where is it?
20:46:39 <Arnia> Vienna
20:46:49 <danja> and when..?
20:46:53 <Arnia> September
20:46:57 <Arnia> .g BPM2006
20:47:01 <phenny> Arnia: http://bpm2006.tuwien.ac.at/
20:47:15 <Arnia> There is a workshop on semantics for web-services which I'm preparing a paper for
20:47:59 <danja> cool
20:48:30 <danja> I wouldn't mind another trip to Vienna (went a couple of months bakc) and bpm might be a good excuse
20:48:55 <Arnia> Should be interesting
20:51:46 <danja> heh, found one : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2001Apr/0202.html
20:52:02 * danja talking about SOMs vapourware
20:57:13 <Arnia> Nice email btw
21:01:24 <Arnia> danja: Out of interest, do you know/know of my supervisor (William Song). He was on the RDF WG and I was wondering if you've ever spoken
21:01:57 <danja> don't think so
21:02:37 <Arnia> Fair enough.
21:02:39 <danja> (but I didn't realise I'd had comms with Bill de H. do long ago either)
21:03:05 <danja> so long a de'ago
21:03:45 <danja> broad brushstrokes, what' the out-thereness?
21:04:15 <Arnia> Modelling customer requirements using metaphor
21:04:35 <danja> yup, that's pretty out there ;-)
21:04:38 <Arnia> (as in, decomposing complex requirements using the underlying metaphoric conception)
21:05:27 <Arnia> I have a plan for getting there, but I now feel that I need more steps before this (admittedly small) step into that river
21:05:41 <Arnia> Hah, how things develop: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2000Jan/0045
21:06:40 <danja> heh
21:07:10 <jcowan> The more it changes, the samer it gets.
21:07:16 <danja> yup
21:07:46 <danja> ...moving on...
21:07:58 <Arnia> Anyway, this paper is more interesting for my funders (BT). It is about using SOMs to provide unsupervised learning of policies for pervasive services.
21:08:14 <danja> ah, ok, that was my next question
21:08:52 <Arnia> Which is going to be important for providing users with flexibility. The pervasive services will be able to adapt to the user's work patterns
21:09:31 <danja> hmm...is there (likely to be) enough data on which to use SOMs?
21:09:45 <danja> like, crunchable stuff
21:09:51 <Arnia> Yes... and it is all directly observable data too
21:10:08 <Arnia> The meat of the paper is showing how one can construct an appropriate vector for a domain
21:10:46 <Arnia> (unobservable things like 'urgency' etc are actually implicit and I think they'll show up as clusters in the map)
21:10:46 <danja> where do the numbers come from?
21:10:55 <danja> ok
21:11:07 <Arnia> Well, for example, a user's location is fairly easy to observe
21:11:15 <crschmidt> I am here
21:11:16 <Arnia> (especially on mobile phones etc)
21:11:28 <Arnia> As is their current local network
21:11:39 <crschmidt> 192.168.1.52
21:11:58 <Arnia> That already provides a lot of the necessary context
21:12:23 <Arnia> Then I'm going to break down the task bit of the context into a series of real-valued components which are, again, observable
21:12:38 <danja> e.g. ?
21:13:52 *** bear is now known as bear_mtg
21:13:57 <Arnia> Well, the example I'm using is BT's TEANU (Transparent Enterprise Access for Nomadic User) which aims to maintain Quality of Service for network applications.
21:14:38 <Arnia> So relevant task aspects are things like transmission size, destination address for transmission, etc
21:15:21 *** _johannes (i=Johannes@johannes.nabooisland.com) has joined #swhack
21:16:16 *** JibberJim has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:16:38 <Arnia> Right, I'll be right back. I'm just popping out to get a drink. I'll respond to anything when I get back
21:26:07 <Arnia> Back
21:29:16 *** vIkSiT (n=viksit@dhcp128036135124.its.yale.edu) has joined #swhack
21:30:15 <jcowan> That was fast.
21:30:46 *** eikeon_ has quit ()
21:41:36 <wallrazer> arnia is a real lightweight
21:45:58 <danja> d'oh, I forgot all about the figures closer to the wire
21:47:18 *** bjoern_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:48:35 * danja now focusses on drink
21:55:40 <Arnia> danja: Eh?
21:55:51 <Arnia> jcowan: No, I just had a single diet coke
21:55:58 <Arnia> jcowan: So wasn't really fast at all
21:56:03 <jcowan> Ah.
21:56:16 <jcowan> I read "drink" as "alcoholic drink".
21:56:45 <wallrazer> wallrazer: likewise
21:57:49 <Arnia> wallrazer: It is a bad sign to start talking to yourself
21:58:13 <Arnia> jcowan: I just needed a caffeine boost to get me through this lethargy
21:58:28 <Arnia> Even if its placebo, it doesn't matter
21:59:02 <jcowan> I can't handle caffein
