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01:30:58 <clsn> bancus: wow, some of the Esperance arms, even the approved ones, are pretty horrible.
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01:41:38 <bancus> A lot of them were approved before the advent of St. Nigel of the Rules.
01:45:17 <clsn> Just so complex, or assymetric, etc...
01:45:24 <bancus> The Umbra Angeli estate is mine, BTW.
01:46:46 <clsn> Lemme find that one...
01:47:44 <bancus> Argent, a pair of wings abased ... something ... sable
01:48:16 <clsn> I see it.
01:48:43 <clsn> That's not bad; if it isn't totally period (it probably is) it's close. Not bizarre, not overcomplex.
01:50:13 <clsn> House Bacchus is moderately ridiculous... I think the docs I was reading the other day would have called that "slot-machine" heraldry...
01:51:05 <bancus> Yeah, I think that's not legal in Adria anymore either.
01:51:10 <bancus> We have a complexity limit.
01:52:05 <clsn> Oh, there was one I saw where there was some sort of mismatch: the picture and the blazon were nothing alike. Something must be buggy...
01:52:29 <clsn> http://www.billeytel.com/Esp_Heraldry/Display.html?ID=29
01:52:44 <clsn> That is definitely not "Vert, a bend sinister between a key bendwise wards to sinister base and a goblet argent."
01:52:50 <twe> Not the same key.
01:53:01 <clsn> No, twe, not the same key at all.
01:53:08 <twe> All of the twe.
01:53:20 <bancus> Yeah.
01:53:25 <bancus> There's a mistake there.
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02:15:39 <jsled> Wow. Venture Bros is awesome again. The ghost of Abe Lincoln possessing Dean, and trying to make out with Hank, thus prompting Hank to call President Lincoln a "'mo".
02:28:23 <sbp> good hello
02:28:36 <sbp> ROW BOT
02:30:45 <jsled> Hee. "Sorry I haven't posted in the last few hours. I've been rewriting all my code in Wasabi on Wails." - http://www.secretgeek.net/wasabi_rewrite.asp
02:33:21 <sbp> .wik Venture Bros
02:33:26 <phenny> "The Venture Bros., sometimes elongated to The Venture Brothers, is an American animated television series airing as part of Adult Swim on Cartoon Network." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_Bros
02:34:56 <kash> hi spb
02:34:56 <sbp> Eris?!
02:35:03 <sbp> argh
02:35:11 <sbp> kash: fuck you, spell my damn nickname right
02:35:44 <kash> sbp eve
02:35:46 <kash> o_O
02:35:51 <kash> i know someone named spb
02:35:52 <kash> sorry
02:36:01 <sbp> no problem, everybody does :-0
02:36:08 <kash> do you?
02:36:08 <sbp> er, s/:-0/:-)/
02:36:13 <sbp> only vaguely
02:36:21 <kash> heh :D
02:36:25 <sbp> and I'm just annoyed because they named Xena fucking *Eris*
02:36:28 <sbp> ERIS
02:36:38 <kash> ERIS FREE
02:36:44 <sbp> I mean, the IAU have just gone mad
02:37:06 <jsled> Our login linux box (that basically only I use, but still!) is `eris`.
02:37:14 <sbp> "Uh, okay Pluto's not a planet anymore. And we'll call this other thing that probably should be a planet Eris just so that nobody will actually like it and think it ought to be a planet."
02:37:14 <kash> eris free net has a new meaning
02:37:14 <kash> :D
02:37:37 <jsled> on a tangent, sbp, you've seen `Spaced`, eh?
02:38:07 <sbp> kash: er, also, welcome to Swhack. this is a publically logged channel, so please feel free to point to my annoyance of misspelling my nickname either as a sign of how much of a jerk I am or how much of an idiot you are. more information available from swhack.com
02:38:13 <sbp> jsled: I have not, nope
02:38:19 <kash> lol sbp.
02:38:19 <sbp> you'd think I would've done, but somehow I haven't
02:38:29 <kash> i found this chan thru a google search for 'saa driver'
02:38:32 <sbp> I haven't seen Coupling either. it's uncanny
02:38:34 <sbp> nor The Office
02:38:38 <sbp> kash: aha
02:38:47 <sbp> .g site:swhack.com saa driver
02:38:50 <phenny> site:swhack.com saa driver: sorry, no results were found.
02:38:56 <sbp> really?
02:39:00 <kash> yeah really
02:39:06 <sbp> what is a saa driver?
02:39:22 <jsled> I only saw a few episodes (of Spaced), but it was wonderful. I've not been int either Office, nor Coupling.
02:39:32 <jsled> Jonathan Creek, sure.
02:39:40 <kash> sbp: freebsd tv tuner driver
02:39:51 <sbp> ooh, Jonathan Creek. I really, really wanted Alan Davies to be the next Doctor Who
02:39:53 <jsled> Murder in Surburbia, Sure.
02:39:54 <kash> for saa713X chips
02:39:57 <sbp> I still think he should be
02:40:00 <sbp> kash: ah
02:40:29 <jsled> sbp: ah, heh.
02:44:58 <jsled> I mean, a main character is called "Molotov Cocktease" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_Cocktease].
02:45:04 <jsled> It's awesome.
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03:29:14 <beoba> best character name ever
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03:52:30 <sbp> phenny: tell jetscreamer DADDY TOOK THE T-BIRD AWAY
03:52:32 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when jetscreamer is around.
03:52:59 <sbp> now the girls can't stand her 'cause she walks, looks, and drives like an ace now!
03:53:10 <sbp> she makes the Indy 500 look like a roman chariot race now
03:53:25 <sbp> a lot of guys try to catch her but she leads 'em on a wild goose chase now!
03:53:29 <sbp> and she'll &c.
03:54:00 <sbp> (okay I know that we'll is the last line, but still)
03:54:24 <sbp> unless you count the cool bit at the end
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03:59:56 <jcowan> Ittywhonk!
04:00:06 <jsled> jcowan!
04:00:12 <sbp> yo jcowan
04:00:14 <jcowan> jsled!
04:00:24 <jcowan> That same am I.
04:00:36 <jcowan> So much for the hot sex in La3amon, alas.
04:00:45 <jsled> Hey, I'm pissed at my coworkers!
04:00:51 <sbp> it really turned out to be a bust?
04:01:08 <sbp> did you confirm the swithe being a singe?
04:01:16 <jsled> None of them seem to think they should use the email alias that all 7 of us share.
04:01:43 <jsled> It'd be "spammy" or something. Even though there's only FUCKING 7 OF US><!!<11
04:03:06 <sbp> eat them
04:03:07 * jsled grrs, and goes to bed.
04:03:10 <sbp> problem solved
04:03:12 <jsled> heh.
04:03:25 <sbp> coworkers keep well too
04:03:46 <jsled> Actually, I'm going out there (to california) next week... maybe I will.
04:03:55 <sbp> cool
04:04:01 <sbp> don't tell them I told you to do it though
04:04:14 <jsled> Oh, no. It's all me.
04:04:19 <sbp> thanks
04:05:55 <sbp> fun fun now that daddy took the t-bird away, fun fun now that daddy took the t-bird away
04:06:02 <sbp> fun fun, now that daddy took the t-bird away
04:06:08 <sbp> fun fun now that daddy took the t-bird away
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04:06:16 <sbp> fun fun now that daddy took the t-bird away...
04:06:19 <sbp> oh hi jetscreamer
04:06:25 <sbp> LOOK WHAT YOU DID
04:06:50 <jetscreamer> :)
04:06:52 <phenny> jetscreamer: 03:39Z <sbp> tell jetscreamer DADDY TOOK THE T-BIRD AWAY
04:07:24 <jetscreamer> i hate those endless loops in my mind
04:07:36 <jetscreamer> even moreso when i don't like the song
04:07:42 <jetscreamer> i don't hate that one though
04:08:00 <sbp> thankfully I at least like this song
04:08:02 <sbp> yeah
04:08:50 <jcowan> Earworms, they're called.
04:09:08 <sbp> huh!
04:09:08 <jetscreamer> last time it was hey oh way to go ohio ...
04:09:20 <sbp> so it's not just Jill who calls them that
04:09:35 <jetscreamer> i never saw them given a name before
04:10:15 <jcowan> A calque of German Ohrwurm, I think.
04:11:20 <jcowan> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrwurm
04:12:04 <jcowan> [[[
04:12:06 <jcowan> Ear worm
04:12:06 <jcowan> from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
04:12:06 <jcowan> Changes too: Navigation, search
04:12:06 <jcowan> This article treats the phenomenon in the head. For other meanings, see ear worm (term clarifying).
04:12:07 <jcowan> An ear worm is the popular name for a music piece and/or a part of a piece of music, which is in such a manner in usual that one in hearing automatically or that is not one must along-hum it during a longer period out of the sense. Like a worm the music creeps into the gehoergang in and remains in it.
04:12:11 <jcowan> The a freedom of movement results frequently from the use of certain musical plates, for example certain usual three-sounds and simple melody sequences (see also Hookline).
04:12:14 <jcowan> A current ear worm has usually the chance to achieve a high placement in the hit parade.
04:12:16 <jcowan> ]]] -- Systran
04:14:18 * jetscreamer refuses to give his cat, or his dog, his whataburger
04:14:27 <sbp> .gc "Oliver Smoot"
04:14:33 <phenny> "Oliver Smoot": 902
04:14:42 <sbp> .wik Whataburger
04:14:46 <phenny> "Whataburger is a privately held, regional fast-food restaurant specializing in hamburgers." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataburger
04:14:49 <sbp> I have crisps
04:15:00 <jcowan> Crumble 'em.
04:15:16 <sbp> I do—in my mouth
04:15:35 <sbp> I typed that em-dash with the kind assistance of the crisp packet
04:15:52 <sbp> otherwise LHT
04:15:58 <jcowan> LHT?
04:16:06 <sbp> Left Hand Typing
04:16:15 <jcowan> Ah.
04:18:27 <sbp> phenny: tell d8uv http://www.banksy.co.uk/
04:18:30 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when d8uv is around.
04:18:42 <sbp> phenny: tell d8uv (via Arnia)
04:18:44 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when d8uv is around.
04:19:08 * sbp chuckles as a log hit reminds him of http://inamidst.com/stuff/kalusa/malia
04:21:47 <sbp> .wik Kalusa
04:21:51 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Kalusa".
04:21:54 <sbp> aw
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05:45:15 <sbp> jcowan: what's the adjectival form of "tapestry" if there is one?
05:45:21 <sbp> I used tapestrical once before
05:45:42 <jcowan> Alas, I have no clue.
05:45:45 <sbp> which I really like, but no use reinventing the wheel unless you do a much better job of course
05:45:49 <sbp> fair enough
05:45:52 <jcowan> .oed
05:46:05 <sbp> yeah, guess I'll have to. I've been Googling around...
05:46:15 <sbp> OED doesn't tend to link to adjectival forms of nouns though
05:46:50 <sbp> blast, cookie problem
05:47:01 <sbp> I flipping hate this, why can't they get this right?
05:47:18 <sbp> my institutional server gives me a cookie, but it only works on the OED for N hours
05:47:25 <jcowan> Reasonable.
05:47:41 <sbp> but the institutional server cookie lasts much more than N hours
05:47:44 <jcowan> Otherwise people could publish the cookie, and then unauthorized persons could stick it in their cookie jars.
05:47:47 <sbp> and you can't renew it until it's expired
05:47:58 <jcowan> Ah.
05:47:59 <sbp> (unless you go in and delete it)
05:48:45 <sbp> at least Firefox makes it easier to delete cookies now, with the cookie search thing
05:49:18 <sbp> okay, here we go
05:50:02 <jcowan> It's rare enough that it might just be listed under the noun, not as its own headword
05:50:08 <jcowan> tapestrical or tapestric or whatever
05:50:47 <jcowan> First ghit for tapestrical is you
05:51:01 <jcowan> only 8 ghits vs. 60 for tapestric
05:51:29 <jcowan> most of which are very repetitious, though, and don't really count
05:51:36 <jcowan> "tapestric harmonies" is a nice phrase however.
05:51:43 <sbp> sadly nothing in the OED that I can find
05:52:53 <jcowan> Well, point them to societysuglyson.com for "tapestric", then.
05:53:49 <sbp> they don't take web citations
05:53:53 <sbp> they're old skool
05:54:23 * jcowan nods.
05:55:10 * sbp tries tapestry, part of speech adjective, in advanced search
05:58:58 <sbp> arabesque, crushed, darned, futile, German, greensick, heaved, high, hooked, inwoven, Japanese, laid, lofty, looped, mismatched, misshapen, mumping, muslin, napped, narrative, needleworked, obverse, olive, pagaent, paegented, parodiable, pattern, peasant, peregrine, rosed, scapeless, sea-sick, severable, sliding, Smilesian, southly, sutile, tuly, Tyrian, upstage, well-hung, Welsh, wrong, wrought
05:59:33 <jcowan> WTF??
05:59:48 <jcowan> Oh, these are adjectives collocated with tapestry?
06:00:17 <sbp> "tapestry" appears somewhere in the body text of the entry, yeah
06:00:26 <sbp> tuly means red
06:00:33 <jcowan> "greensick tapestry": cool
06:00:42 <sbp> sutile is pretty good, that might be close
06:01:08 <sbp> coined by Sir Thomas Browne, too!
06:01:09 <sbp> [[[
06:01:10 <sbp> [ad. L. s{umac}tilis, f. s{umac}t-, pa. ppl. stem of su{ebreve}re SEW v.1]
06:01:10 <sbp> Made or done by stitching or sewing.
06:01:10 <sbp> a1682 SIR T. BROWNE Tracts ii. (1683) 90 These [crowns and garlands] were made up after all ways of Art, Compactile, Sutile, Plectile.
06:01:11 <sbp> ]]]
06:01:13 <sbp> said to be "rare"
06:01:26 <sbp> .gc sutile
06:01:29 <phenny> sutile: 12,000
06:01:30 * jcowan warns sbp *again* about assuming first citee = creator
06:01:47 <sbp> one can dream :-)
06:02:54 <sbp> "1807 OPIE in Lect. Paint. (1848) 316 Those greensick lovers of chalk, brickdust, charcoal, and old tapestry."
06:03:27 <sbp> well I'm quite pleased with sutile
06:08:48 * Arnia waves to all and sundry
06:08:51 <sbp> .compare extincted unextincted
06:08:53 <sbp> hey Arnia
06:08:57 <phenny> extincted (58,800), unextincted (518)
06:09:01 <tonybaloney> hi Arnia :)
06:09:15 <Arnia> fun fun fun... higher-order messaging
06:09:32 * Arnia cuts out sixty lines of hideous boilerplate iteration
06:09:50 <Arnia> http://www.metaobject.com/papers/Higher_Order_Messaging_OOPSLA_2005.pdf
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06:27:58 <Arnia> Ooh, futures are included
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07:05:09 <Arnia> sbp: http://www.hogbaysoftware.com/product/writeroom
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07:13:57 <bjoern_> .pc ^ =
07:14:01 <phenny> 005E: CIRCUMFLEX ACCENT (^)
07:14:04 <phenny> 0020: SPACE ( )
07:14:08 <phenny> 003D: EQUALS SIGN (=)
07:14:33 <bjoern_> .pc %
07:14:36 <phenny> 0025: PERCENT SIGN (%)
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11:17:29 <Monty> Thank goodness, jessica is back!
11:17:32 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
11:17:35 <Monty> MandrakeSoft's Chicken McNuggets quacks at dazzling Mozart ;)
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11:44:57 <Monty> welcome, jcowan
11:45:10 <jcowan> Ittywhonk, Monty
11:45:15 <Monty> New York. And where all for some are of music, but seems is cross-platform availability really
11:45:16 <jcowan> I come only to change the topic:
11:45:30 *** jcowan changed the topic to: "Hail Eris! All hail Dysnomia!"
11:45:56 <bjoern_> .gc dysomnia
11:45:59 <phenny> dysomnia: 936
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12:49:09 <clsn> Maybe Eris isn't such a bad name. After all, its discovery sowed chaos and discord among astronomers.
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12:53:05 <Arnia> clsn: Question is... 1) is the planet golden? 2) is it shaped like an apple? 3) does it have a message for the fairest one?
12:53:10 *** sbp- is now known as sbp
12:53:18 <bjoern_> sbp!
12:53:34 <bjoern_> .wik Aeris
12:53:36 * Arnia sbp+=1
12:53:38 <phenny> "Aeris may refer to" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeris
12:54:02 <bjoern_> .wik Aerith Gainsborough
12:54:05 <phenny> "Aerith Gainsborough (エアリス・ゲインズブール, Earisu Geinzubūru?), known as 'Aeris Gainsborough' in the English version of Final Fantasy VII, is a fictional character from the role playing game Final Fantasy VII." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerith_Gainsborough
12:55:40 <tobbez> hmmmm, can't get webgoat working :|
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14:45:17 <jsled> Heh [[[
14:45:28 <jsled> There are a few doozies I could share -— a Netscape engineer who shan't be named once passed a pointer to JavaScript, stored it as a string and later passed it back to C, killing 30
14:45:31 <jsled> ]]] - http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/91574.aspx
14:46:47 <bjoern_> "Netscape was one giant WTF, or as they called it back then, AOL."
14:46:56 <bjoern_> Netscape was one giant AOL?
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15:22:40 * Talliesin LOLs so loundly at jsled's joke he has to explain the source of his mirth to the rest of the office.
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15:48:01 <bjoern_> .cp ^001a
15:48:04 <phenny> 001A: <control> - SUBSTITUTE ()
15:49:46 <bjoern_> .cp ^00a5
15:49:49 <phenny> 00A5: YEN SIGN (¥)
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15:56:09 <bjoern_> .w edifices
15:56:13 <phenny> edifices 1. a structure that has a roof and walls and stands more or less permanently in one place
15:57:39 <bjoern_> .cp 005e
15:57:41 <phenny> 005E: CIRCUMFLEX ACCENT (^)
15:57:44 <phenny> FF3E: FULLWIDTH CIRCUMFLEX ACCENT (＾)
15:57:47 <phenny> E005E: TAG CIRCUMFLEX ACCENT [...]
15:57:50 <bjoern_> .cp 0055
15:57:53 <phenny> 0055: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U (U)
15:57:56 <phenny> 0075: LATIN SMALL LETTER U (u)
15:57:59 <phenny> 00D9: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH GRAVE (Ù) [...]
15:58:01 <bjoern_> .cp 00ED
15:58:04 <phenny> 00CD: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I WITH ACUTE (Í)
15:58:06 <phenny> 00ED: LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH ACUTE (í)
15:58:09 <phenny> 100ED: LINEAR B IDEOGRAM VESSEL B214 [...]
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17:09:08 <redmonk> hidy ho.
17:09:20 <redmonk> .cp MYASS
17:09:25 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'MYASS'.
17:09:36 <redmonk> haha, phenny can't find her own ass.
17:09:53 <kandinski> .g myass
17:09:53 * redmonk chuckles
17:09:56 <phenny> myass: http://www.myass.dk/
17:10:04 <redmonk> ha!
17:10:06 <kandinski> she can
17:10:20 <kandinski> you just weren't asking her right
17:10:41 <redmonk> heh
17:10:46 <redmonk> but it was funnier my way
17:12:45 <kandinski> Warning: mysql_connect(): User myassdk_myassdk already has more than 'max_user_connections' active connections in /home/myassdk/public_html/includes/db_mysql.php on line 39
17:12:49 <kandinski> DB Error: Could not connect to the database server (localhost, myassdk_myassdk).
17:13:00 <kandinski> I think this is funny in its own right
17:13:22 <kandinski> "if Bender were a webserver"
17:17:19 * perigrin get's confused for a second
17:17:56 <perigrin> dahut's name on another network is Bender.
17:18:19 <perigrin> And I've contemplated adding a httpd component.
17:25:49 <kandinski> < Bender> "Get it yourself, you assshole human"
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17:38:12 <kash> heh
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18:17:48 <Monty> hey bunnywabbit_
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19:09:08 <sbp> phenny: tell jcowan we should play Rock, Paper, Scissors via phenny. here's how it goes: 1) echo -n 'rock ou8A($TIR' | sha1sum 2) show that output to the other player 3) other player does same to you 4) each reveal your moves 5) give one another your passphrases so that you can verify each other's moves
19:09:10 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when jcowan is around.
19:10:14 <sbp> phenny: tell jcowan 6e71c9627543875fcee6b5a908178df79b9075a9
19:10:17 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when jcowan is around.
19:20:17 <sbp> .cp ^(005C|FE68)
19:20:19 <phenny> 005C: REVERSE SOLIDUS (\)
19:20:22 <phenny> FE68: SMALL REVERSE SOLIDUS (﹨)
19:20:30 <sbp> I like how the small reverse solidus is bigger than the reverse solidus, in this font
19:20:51 <bjoern_> yes, much wider
19:20:59 <bjoern_> like, 3 characters instead of one.
19:22:35 <beoba> theyre the same width to me, just one has less slant than the other
19:23:11 <sbp> beoba: so they're different heights?
19:23:41 <beoba> small is maybe 1px heigher
19:24:01 <sbp> so not even much difference in slant?
19:24:07 <beoba> fe68 is a little less slanted than 005c, but they both fill 1 character of space (ie monospace font)
19:24:18 <sbp> ah
19:24:33 <beoba> fe68 has a couple px of extra space to the right to make up for the space created by decrease in slant
19:24:41 <sbp> gotcha
19:25:09 <kash> i don't see a difference
19:25:19 <beoba> this is on mac's 'monaco' font
19:25:45 <sbp> Lucida Grande 13pt, here
19:25:59 <beoba> 9pt, i think
19:26:08 <beoba> no, 10pt
19:26:19 <kash> aterm defaults here
19:26:51 <beoba> whats this for, anyway?
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19:28:45 <sbp> nothing. this is #swhack; nothing is for anything
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19:30:19 *** sbp changed the topic to: "\ vs. ﹨"
19:31:25 <sbp> phenny: tell Arnia that WriteRoom is pretty awesome; thanks!
19:31:27 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when arnia is around.
19:31:58 *** kpreid changed the topic to: "“\”/“﹨”"
19:32:05 <sbp> heh
19:32:11 <bjoern_> http://www.bjoernsworld.de/temp/solidus.png
19:32:12 <sbp> yo
19:32:27 <sbp> oh I see :-)
19:32:59 <bjoern_> it's a / if you connect the dots...
19:33:33 <sbp> which is ironic, given that it's Windows
19:33:38 <sbp> it should convert / to \
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19:36:14 <kpreid> ﹨
19:36:21 <kpreid> ﹨
19:36:28 <kpreid> ﹨
19:36:34 <kpreid> ﹨
19:36:40 <kpreid> ﹨
19:36:47 <bjoern_> you see how utf-8 makes things longer and longer and longer...
19:36:48 <kpreid> ﹨
19:36:56 <kpreid> ﹨
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19:39:55 <kpreid> eek. this PS file (as converted to PDF) is displaying with its pages in reverse order.
19:40:08 <kpreid> let's see, if I do "rotate pages" then invert my monitor...
19:42:31 <clsn> I hate that; I'm making a book in Hebrew and had to "reverse" the pages so that the publisher would have the pages in the right order.
19:43:47 <bjoern_> We're slowly getting somewhere...
19:47:13 <kpreid> they also have lead to gold
20:00:00 <bjoern_> .cp ^0308
20:00:03 <phenny> 0308: COMBINING DIAERESIS (◌̈)
20:00:24 <bjoern_> Bjo\x{308}rn is my name in NFD
20:00:25 <bjoern_> .wik NFD
20:00:29 <phenny> "NFD (originally Noise For Destruction) are a London-based hybrid gothic rock band formed by Peter 'Bob' White and Simon Rippin (both formerly of Sensorium) and Tony Pettit (formerly of Fields of the Nephilim and Nefilim)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFD
20:00:33 <bjoern_> hmm
20:00:33 <sbp> oh, are these character strings or byte strings?
20:00:47 <bjoern_> \x{308} cannot occur in octet strings
20:01:01 <bjoern_> and the spec says ' is for octet strings, " for character strings
20:01:07 <sbp> ah
20:01:32 <sbp> oh wait, I see my confusion
20:01:33 <sbp> 'chevron3=Bo\x{C3}\x{B6}tes;chevron1=Pegasus"
20:01:40 <sbp> compare the first and last quotes
20:01:55 <bjoern_> I see...
20:02:10 <bjoern_> fixed in my working copy
20:02:26 <bjoern_> I'd have uncovered that once I use the spec to make a test suite...
20:03:07 <bjoern_> be careful with addresses that match this one though, you might connect yourself to a black hole.
20:03:55 <sbp> huh, the mixed use of & and ; is interesting. question, though: why?
20:04:23 <bjoern_> because you typically want to support both & and ; for backwards-compat reasons,
20:04:36 <bjoern_> and scanning the string first to decide what might be the separator is a bit silly
20:04:37 <sbp> right, but both in a single string?
20:04:43 <sbp> ah
20:04:50 <sbp> that's true
20:05:03 <sbp> but the mixed format is rather difficult to mind-decode
20:05:13 <sbp> I suppose it is application/ not text/ though...
20:05:20 <bjoern_> software modules conforming to the spec will never produce that
20:05:34 <sbp> excellent
20:05:41 <sbp> parse liberal sort of thing
20:05:46 <bjoern_> precisely
20:07:01 * bjoern_ wonders what sbp thinks of the == != notation in the examples
20:07:13 <bjoern_> it's the best I could come up with in the 1 minute I spent on it...
20:07:33 <sbp> it's not too bad, though what with that and the " vs. ' thing it's not entirely easy to scan
20:07:39 * bjoern_ needs to get rid of the "The following example ..." crap...
20:08:14 <bjoern_> yeah, I'm not that happy, but it's fairly easy to parse, which is good for test suites...
20:08:20 <sbp> yeah
20:08:21 <bjoern_> if you have any better idea, let me know
20:08:29 <sbp> well, I was thinking about...
20:08:33 * sbp prepares example
20:08:51 <bjoern_> the ' vs " bit is a bit artificial, there should never really be any confusion..
20:09:15 <bjoern_> but without it, and if you want to misread the spec, you could...
20:10:07 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "Slightly more human readable" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/26116
20:10:20 <sbp> right, I see two levels to specification writing: 1) make it precise, 2) make it readable
20:10:22 <sbp> in that order :-)
20:10:42 <bjoern_> \u?????
20:10:56 <sbp> to make it clear it's a codepoint, not a byte
20:10:56 <bjoern_> Do I look like JBjoern_ or what?
20:11:07 <sbp> heh. it's used in Python...
20:11:25 <bjoern_> There is JPython now I heard...
20:11:50 <bjoern_> I don't think "WRONG" is good here
20:11:58 <bjoern_> for the things, on their own, are not "wrong"
20:12:02 <sbp> yeah, people using Java have so much pain that they try to steal bits from Python
20:12:10 <bjoern_> they only represent different data sets
20:12:14 <sbp> NON-CONFORMANT: was too long
20:12:18 <sbp> oh, true
20:13:08 <bjoern_> (and "right" isn't right for the same reason, the first would be "Canonical", the others would be "Non-canonical but equivalent")
20:14:01 <sbp> Canonical:
20:14:01 <sbp> Non-canon:
20:14:01 <sbp> INCORRECT:
20:14:02 <sbp> ?
20:14:08 <sbp> where INCORRECT is short for INCORRECTLY ENCODED
20:14:24 <jsled> Jython's nifty. It's pretty cool to be able to use all of java's awesome class libs from python code.
20:14:42 <sbp> eh, I guess you're right. == and != are probably for the best
20:15:05 <bjoern_> I thought about "eq" and "ne" instead...
20:15:25 <bjoern_> but they look less like list items
20:15:27 <sbp> != and == are easier to read, I think
20:15:27 <swhask> Maybe you meant: . v
20:15:35 <sbp> eq and NE, perhaps
20:15:44 * bjoern_ thinks NE
20:15:49 <jsled> Soon every statement will be space-prefixed so no bot things it's a command.
20:16:02 <jsled> Then some bot will come along that uses ' ' as its prefix.
20:16:10 <bjoern_> pybots
20:16:24 <jsled> And Monty will gain sentience.
20:16:24 <Monty> That is interesting. Please continue.
20:16:40 <jsled> :p
20:18:02 <lisppaste2> sbp annotated #26116 with "Different symbols" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/26116#1
20:18:42 <sbp> whoops, I guess 1) and 3) are both canonical in there
20:18:42 <bjoern_> Maybe I should consider having more prose, less example code.
20:18:48 <sbp> haven't read the canonicality bit yet though
20:18:57 <sbp> nope, I think the examples are very useful
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20:19:28 <sbp> and I rather like => and XX. they're very distinct
20:19:36 <bjoern_> yes, I was thinking about mixing them with prose better
20:21:04 <bjoern_> I also considered to somehow split the "!=" cases away
20:21:20 <bjoern_> by going the other way round, taking the encoded strings and stating what the data set is
20:21:44 <sbp> nah. you could have some of those *too* I guess
20:21:51 <sbp> but I like the current approach
20:21:55 <sbp> it's pretty explanatory
20:22:11 <sbp> the only thing it doesn't really say at the moment is which forms are canonical
20:22:22 <sbp> and the bytes vs. characters thing is a bit confusing
20:22:25 <sbp> apart from that, no qualms
20:22:31 <bjoern_> it says to im the introduction (always the first item)
20:23:02 <sbp> says to what?
20:23:06 <bjoern_> perhaps I should remove the octet bits and discuss this separately
20:23:26 * sbp wonders where the EAT Thorn example is from
20:23:45 <bjoern_> that one is coded...
20:23:53 <bjoern_> you need the unicode db to encode it
20:24:02 <bjoern_> and, well, read it properly
20:24:08 <bjoern_> you also need to understand l33t
20:24:17 <sbp> heh
20:24:42 <bjoern_> canonical is not yet defined in the document. if it were, it would refer to character strings, not octet strings
20:24:51 <bjoern_> hence any octet sequence would be non-canonical
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20:24:55 <sbp> ah, thanks
20:25:01 <bjoern_> but I haven't thought that part out yet
20:26:02 <sbp> hmm, actually that doesn't make sense to me
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20:26:37 <sbp> since programmatically you can represent strings as sequences of characters or sequences of octets, but when serialising and transporting you can only represent them as sequences of octets
20:26:53 <sbp> so that implies that no serialised data can be canonical
20:26:58 <sbp> which is weird
20:27:03 <bjoern_> but the encoding algo produces character strings, nothing else
20:27:34 <sbp> but it seems like that's a different layer
20:27:44 <sbp> you have canonicalisation of the syntax, and then canonicalisation of the string encoding
20:27:48 <bjoern_> yes... as I said, that's not fully thought out yet
20:27:53 <sbp> fair enough
20:28:12 * sbp stirs bjoern_'s mind
20:28:27 <bjoern_> As I said, the examples currently mix encoding and decoding issues, it might be better to discuss those separately.
20:28:55 * sbp nods
20:29:28 <sbp> okay, I follow what you meant now
20:30:44 <bjoern_> the point of having the octet string examples in there is just that you have to handle both cases, much like you have to handle a literal U+0000 and %00
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20:31:44 <sbp> programmatically? yeah
20:32:21 <sbp> and I guess referring to the character sequence as being preferable is a good thing
20:32:34 <sbp> since it stops people doing evil byte-level things to encoded unicode strings
20:32:59 <bjoern_> as for the mixing, I'm thinking about going "if you have this data set, you encode it thusly, and these are other forms of the same thing. you don't do it like $this, beacause $this maps to $that, which is different"
20:34:03 <sbp> "and these are other forms of the same thing, but you don't produce them, only consume them"
20:34:25 <sbp> "and you *definitely* don't do it like $this..." :-)
20:35:33 <sbp> perhaps you could use arrows
20:35:42 <sbp> <-> = produce and consume this
20:35:47 <sbp> <- = consume this
20:36:06 <bjoern_> <!> don't produce this
20:36:11 <sbp> :-)
20:36:21 <bjoern_> <-> TIE Fighter.
20:36:26 <sbp> heheh
20:36:30 <sbp> EAT THORN
20:37:28 <bjoern_> you need to concat the <name> fields and read them in reverse order; then look the <value> fields up (the code points), concat them, and read them in reverse order (l33t decoder)
20:37:50 * perigrin wonders when sbp started writing perl in channel.
20:40:15 <sbp> bjoern_: ooh, I see! eastar egge!
20:40:59 <bjoern_> right. it turns out that Stargate isn't a good source for form field encoding examples.
20:41:33 <sbp> hehe
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20:42:06 <sbp> admittedly some real examples might be good too
20:42:11 <bjoern_> (and I know, I tried really hard to find some formula that involved %, which I could not, so I used RSA in the example...)
20:42:13 <sbp> perhaps from a W3C search engine or something
20:42:24 <bjoern_> a W3C what?
20:42:36 <sbp> like the mailing list archives search engine
20:42:39 <bjoern_> the list search is an utter mess
20:43:05 <bjoern_> and their web site search (member-only, Google-powered) is much, much, MUCH, INCREDIBLY MUCH MUCH MUCH worse.
20:44:19 <bjoern_> so, instead, I should make some examples for well-designed web services.
20:44:32 <bjoern_> naturally I would have to make those up, for there is no such thing currently.
20:45:41 <sbp> right
20:45:47 <sbp> wait, what about mine?! :-)
20:46:47 <bjoern_> phenny does not use the ONE TRUE PROTOCOL.
20:46:58 <bjoern_> .gc locotorp
20:47:01 <phenny> locotorp: 766
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21:15:29 <Monty> bah, it's vIkSiT again
21:15:35 <bjoern_> countdown
21:15:35 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 75, 6, 4, 9, 1, 4. Your target is 922. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
21:15:54 <bjoern_> calc (9+4)*(75-4)
21:15:54 <Monty> bjoern_: 923
21:15:56 <bjoern_> calc (9+4)*(75-4) - 1
21:15:56 <Monty> bjoern_: 922
21:16:05 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
21:16:07 <Monty> Oh bugger, I don't think I can solve that one!
21:16:22 <bjoern_> huh?
21:16:58 <bjoern_> I think Monty's gotta bug.
21:17:05 <Monty> man now they don't know of script. Human being delivered to say something into earlier this on a Bad Thing in pircbot original is Bender.
21:17:16 <bjoern_> That's at least the third time that he doesn't find an obvious solution.
21:38:35 <thelsdj> mmm core 2 duo, 4gb ram, 640gb hd sitting on my desk right now
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22:20:37 <beoba> how loud is it
22:21:48 <benjick> hm
22:22:00 <benjick> would it be hard to make an rss-reader in php?
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22:44:32 <aeonite> who's alive?
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23:16:15 <beoba> if its already been done, probably not
23:39:47 <jsled> Yeah ... it is a general purpose programming language and all.
23:40:07 <jsled> You can even do something in php-cli + gtk or something crazy.
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23:43:52 <sbp> phenny: tell aeonite hello
23:43:54 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when aeonite is around.
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