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00:13:15 <xover> .gc probableconsonant
00:13:17 <phenny> probableconsonant: 0
00:13:20 <xover> .gc "probable consonant"
00:13:22 <phenny> "probable consonant": 19
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00:46:00 <Arnia> .gc "improbable constant"
00:46:03 <phenny> "improbable constant": 7
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01:08:43 <Monty> hey DrBacchus
01:09:19 *** bear_afk is now known as bear
01:17:17 <DrBacchus> Hola, Monty
01:17:17 <Monty> Tell me more about that.
01:17:22 <DrBacchus> Monty: I shant
01:17:24 <Monty> CrustyGeek == escape-capsule;
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02:50:07 <moeffju[Away]> Idling started!
02:50:15 <ringmaster> JibbyBot is here.
02:50:23 <moeffju[Away]> I'm running out of hotkeys for my irssi windows.
02:50:27 <moeffju[Away]> I need to remap the keyboard.
02:50:39 <moeffju[Away]> So now all the geekery and fun from #habari will move here, right?
02:50:59 <ringmaster> Nah...
02:51:02 <ringmaster> Or...
02:51:06 <ringmaster> What geekery and fun?
02:51:22 <moeffju[Away]> Oh great, now what will people think of Habari.
02:51:45 <moeffju[Away]> Sponsored Links: [...] Psychic Reading [...] Bankruptcy [...] Baby Clothes
02:51:58 <moeffju[Away]> Look, we're on the internet: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-06-15
02:52:19 * ringmaster creates more content to drive traffic to advertisers.
02:53:04 * crschmidt wrinkles his eyebrows
02:54:15 <moeffju[Away]> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=238323&cid=19492861 -_-
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03:06:41 <kpreid> Hmmm....
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03:50:57 <ringmaster> So much for that.
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06:19:14 <bjoern_> "War makes privatization easy: first you destroy society; then you let the corporations rebuild it." - Hacene Djemam
06:33:19 <bjoern_> Anyone know where Noah left his ark? I might need it later today...
06:34:15 <Tene> .wik noah's ark
06:34:18 <phenny> "According to Abrahamic tradition, Noah's Ark was a vessel built at God's command to save Noah, his family, and a core stock of the world's animals from the Great Flood." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_ark
07:08:04 <bjoern_> "The Aussies were evenly split between what constitutes a greater danger to the world: the United States or Islamic fundamentalism."
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07:10:28 <thelsdj> no no, .wik won't find the ark, but .g might
07:10:35 <thelsdj> .g noah's ark
07:10:37 <phenny> thelsdj: http://www.noahsarkwaterpark.com/
07:10:59 <bjoern_> you have too much faith in .g
07:11:03 <thelsdj> apparently its in wisconsin
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07:45:29 * sbp glances at the logs, and weirdness from moeffju/ringmaster
07:45:32 <phenny> sbp: 14 Jun 21:08Z <d8uv> tell sbp to do a "My Hobby" cartoon >:(
07:45:35 <phenny> sbp: 14 Jun 21:09Z <Ash> tell sbp to do a "hi ash" cartoon
07:45:39 <phenny> sbp: 14 Jun 21:10Z <crschmidt> tell sbp to do a "die ash" cartoon
07:46:26 <sbp> hehe
07:46:37 <bjoern_> Grandmaster P!
07:46:54 * Arnia gets sbp's cloak
07:47:04 * Arnia hides sbp's dagger
07:49:18 <sbp> greetings fellow Swhackions, for I am much being in your internet spacehole!
07:49:36 <sbp> I don't even really know what I'm saying these days. did you notice?
07:49:40 <sbp> been that way for a year or two now
07:49:51 <sbp> I just hit the keyboard and words come out. it's gear
07:50:17 <sbp> .gc nullnessless
07:50:19 <bjoern_> What is a keyboard?
07:50:20 <phenny> nullnessless: 0
07:50:30 <bjoern_> .gc nulllessness
07:50:32 <sbp> it's the thing that the Optimus perfected
07:50:32 <phenny> nulllessness: 0
07:50:59 <sbp> .gc micromoron
07:51:01 <phenny> micromoron: 196
07:51:09 <sbp> now we're getting somewhere
07:51:24 <bjoern_> .gc macrominion
07:51:26 <phenny> macrominion: 0
07:51:32 <Arnia> .gc micromormon
07:51:34 <phenny> micromormon: 2
07:51:42 <bjoern_> yesterday I found a asc/descender free domain name!
07:51:56 <bjoern_> not sure yet though that's the one I want to register
07:53:00 <sbp> ooh! which one? you can tell us! we won't squeal
07:53:05 <sbp> well, maybe just a bit
07:53:42 <bjoern_> NEVER!
07:53:52 <bjoern_> that, too, would have no ascdescenders.
07:54:11 <bjoern_> but never.eu isn't quite right.
07:54:32 <bjoern_> besides, it's taken already
07:54:45 <bjoern_> (never.eu, I mean)
07:55:44 <bjoern_> In other news, Paul Hsieh posted a new version for the encoder, but I think it's still wrong; this time I know how to fix it though.
07:58:03 <sbp> awesome
07:58:21 <sbp> I still think you should be looking at assembler golf for this
07:58:32 <sbp> it's a small enough piece of C that it must be fairly easy in assembler
08:02:11 <bjoern_> well the decoder http://paste.lisp.org/display/42785 is of asm origin
08:02:44 <bjoern_> cf http://swhack.com/logs/2007-06-14#T19-11-58
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09:05:56 <lisppaste2> bjoern_ pasted "utf-8 encoders" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/42809
09:06:03 <bjoern_> So, which of those is more elegant?
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09:06:37 <bjoern_> Encoding all of Unicode 255 times takes A: 22566 versus B: 23434 ms.
09:07:28 <Talliesin> The second is the most elegant as source, but only by a whisker.
09:08:04 <bjoern_> Yeah, that's what I thought too
09:08:11 <Talliesin> Oh. Wait, actually that if (c < 0x80) isn't all that pretty.
09:08:24 <bjoern_> ...
09:08:38 <bjoern_> the two additional arrays with array lookups are not all that pretty either!
09:09:37 <Talliesin> But we're already doing that technique so doing it again is less ugly.
09:09:52 <Talliesin> (We are of course arguing aesthetics rather than code, so there's no ultimate answer).
09:10:06 <Talliesin> Wait a sec.
09:10:15 <Talliesin> You sure B has the correct code?
09:10:23 <Talliesin> WHere is c assigned before the test?
09:10:41 <bjoern_> ah, it should be "cp" not "c" there
09:10:52 <Talliesin> Should that not be cp?
09:10:54 <Talliesin> :)
09:11:39 <bjoern_> Well I use 'c' for code point and 'len' for len, while Paul used 'cp' for code point and 'c' for len^W 'count'.
09:11:51 <Talliesin> Hard to choose on aesthetics.
09:12:17 <bjoern_> well it's overall "elegance"
09:12:17 <Talliesin> I'm leaning slightly towards the first one on the basis of not having a "special case".
09:12:33 <bjoern_> interesting
09:12:37 <Talliesin> Aesthetics is part of that.
09:13:03 <Talliesin> Special cases are very inelegant in algorithms.
09:13:10 <bjoern_> I like B more because it is shorter and relies less on "magic"
09:13:41 <Talliesin> Yeah, but it's already using that type of magic, so more magic of the same sort I find less offensive.
09:13:50 <bjoern_> A is just nice in so far as that it has no control flow statements and is very slightly faster
09:14:01 <Talliesin> Now when it comes to execution I'd expect A to be faster on modern machines, B on older ones.
09:14:15 <bjoern_> yes
09:14:32 <Talliesin> If you don't have pipelining and execution caching then the if case saves you cycles.
09:14:48 <xover> I'm torn on the question. While A is clearly more symmetrical in shape, B does look more like boobies.
09:14:49 <Talliesin> But if you do then the possibility of branching can cause you cache misses.
09:15:13 <Talliesin> (10:06:18 AM) bjoern_: Encoding all of Unicode 255 times takes A: 22566 versus B: 23434 ms.
09:15:19 <Talliesin> Not a good real-world test.
09:15:27 <xover> Actually, if you flip the B on its side it too becomes symmetrical. Yes, definitely the boobies one.
09:16:13 <Talliesin> Most Unicode data is bottom heavy, so B might be faster in many realworld cases (that special case being hit often enough that its gain overcomes the penalties).
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09:17:49 <lisppaste2> bjoern_ pasted "the shortest as yet..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/42810
09:18:14 <bjoern_> Well I know how to shorten that a bit more...
09:18:43 <bjoern_> Actually, I think the routine won't even be called for < 0x80...
09:18:48 <bjoern_> in my specific case that is
09:19:12 <bjoern_> not that performance matters at all, I run that code maybe a few hundred times
09:19:16 <Talliesin> If it's possible for that part to be inlined, then perhaps.
09:19:38 <bjoern_> it's always possible to inline non-recursive functions!
09:19:51 <Talliesin> Depends on execution context.
09:20:14 <Talliesin> And that also applies to the other one.
09:20:21 <bjoern_> sure
09:20:44 <Talliesin> The last one is pretty ugly. Though if you were to take it and break it up into more readable series of if statements then it makes for a good instructional example on how UTF-8 works.
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09:34:38 <Monty> But what does piotch have to do with the price of fish?
09:34:40 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
09:34:42 <Monty> wow, when mediovia is said that? wow
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09:36:49 <Monty> howdy, alienbrain_
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09:57:34 <Arnia> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/6751599.stm
09:57:48 <Arnia> [[[
09:57:51 <Arnia> Fear not, though! For Doctor Love is back in session - the surgery is open and all ailments and concerns will be addressed. Relationship problems? I'll solve them. Social dilemmas? No problem.
09:57:59 <Arnia> And I'm opening this up to any and all annoyances you may have - do slow walking people in the street really tick you off? Should short people be allowed to open umbrellas in crowded areas?
09:58:01 <Arnia> ]]]
10:03:00 <bjoern_> "A woman who ripped off her ex-boyfriend's testicle with her bare hands has been sent to prison." -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4253849.stm
10:03:08 <kwijibo> yikes
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10:49:32 <deltab> bjoern_: she'll be released round about now
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11:11:49 <aspect_> the short-people-0with-umbrellas thing is why I'm sometimes really glad I wear glasses
11:15:21 <bjoern_> ah, I guess that's why it's on the most-emailed list on BBC
11:22:21 <aspect_> break-up/make-up sex is always mjore violent .. but that's a bit much
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12:07:17 <bjoern_> .calc 15 square miles in km^2
12:07:20 <phenny> 15 (square miles) = 38.8498217 km^2
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13:11:35 <dumnut> .calc 2^64
13:11:38 <phenny> 2^64 = 1.84467441e19
13:12:16 <dumnut> i heard the buddhsists believe that is longer than the time in universe, have no idea if correct or not.
13:12:44 <sbp> what in, seconds or years or what?
13:14:14 <bjoern_> Heil Eris! You are bigger than Pluto!
13:14:29 <sbp> bigger but with a hella stupid name
13:14:33 <dumnut> good point i don't know, it was tower of hanoi problem, actually i think it was 2^64 towers would take more time than universe has to reassemble tower of hanoi.
13:14:49 <dumnut> in mit programming 101 class on web video.
13:14:54 <sbp> ah
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13:19:56 * bjoern_ suspect that refers to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_earth#Religious_concepts
13:21:19 <sbp> mebbe...
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13:32:04 <dumnut> hmm hindu's believe god dies and borns again, and the bible teaches us that God lives forever, intreestign difference.
13:33:04 <sbp> births would be the present verb, I guess...
13:33:12 <sbp> interesting side case
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14:08:03 <edsu> heheh http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/unicode_eye_chart/
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14:23:40 <bjoern_> .pc z
14:23:43 <phenny> 007A: LATIN SMALL LETTER Z (z)
14:28:50 <bjoern_> .gc touyube
14:28:53 <phenny> touyube: 529
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15:23:37 <bjoern_> So I changed my grammar engine to use my utf-8 scheme for validation...
15:24:11 <bjoern_> checking whether the SMIL 2.0 recommendation converted to XML (2 MB)
15:24:20 <bjoern_> matches the grammar for XML takes 140 ms...
15:27:17 <bjoern_> the 1.3 MB libxml2-api.xml (part of libxml2) takes 86 ms
15:31:17 <kpreid> [[[
15:31:33 <kpreid> Well, shoot. I'll have to revise a few things just so people don't need a block and tackle to suspend their disbelief. Otherwise I've got a bunch of sinister, needlessly complex water heaters hanging out at
15:31:37 <kpreid> the bottom of the ocean. Highly sophisticated, and...kind of...bubbling a bit. Not exactly a dynamic threat, is it? "Mr. President, we think the aliens may worship Rube Goldberg."
15:31:40 <kpreid> ]]] -- http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.sf.science/browse_thread/thread/5ae836463d2d2d47/a9235e386ff86640
15:31:57 <bjoern_> The 69 MB A-TIGR-1-DesignElement.xml of the W3C EXI suit takes 4094 ms
15:38:02 <bjoern_> apparently that makes me roughly competitive with expat, although expat does a little bit more than I do, like checking for duplicate attributes on elements.
15:38:26 <bjoern_> (expat is also in the area of 4 seconds for that document)
15:40:32 <bjoern_> I'd like to compile it with gcc and use its profile guided optimization, which sped up old versions by a factor > 2,
15:40:54 <bjoern_> but apparently cygwin doesn't have a recent enough glib available
15:41:12 <bjoern_> so I could only build it on linux in the vm...
15:43:17 <xover> ,gc "Verschärfte Vernehmung"
15:43:19 <JibbyBot> "Verschärfte Vernehmung": 48,000
15:43:42 <bjoern_> interesting
15:43:42 <xover> .gc "Enhanced Interrogation"
15:43:44 <phenny> "Enhanced Interrogation": 158,000
15:44:06 <bjoern_> usually, Enhanced would be "Verbesserte"
15:44:12 <bjoern_> .gc "Verbesserte Vernehmung"
15:44:15 <phenny> "Verbesserte Vernehmung": 1
15:44:15 <bjoern_> .gc "Verbesserte Befragung"
15:44:17 <phenny> "Verbesserte Befragung": 0
15:45:09 <xover> I'd tentatively try “en-sharpened” as a translation.
15:45:43 <xover> Hmm. “Intensified”
15:47:35 <bjoern_> Well I initially read "Verschaerfte Wahrnehmung"
15:47:39 <bjoern_> phenny, de "Wahrnehmung"?
15:47:54 <bjoern_> what was the syntax?
15:48:01 <bjoern_> @translate german to english Wahrnehmung
15:48:03 <supybot> bjoern_: Perception
15:48:31 <phenny> IOError: [Errno socket error] (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution') (file "/home/sbp/phenny/web.py", line 32, in post)
15:48:45 <bjoern_> .wik The Sentinel (TV series)
15:48:48 <phenny> "The Sentinel is a Canadian-produced television series that aired on UPN in the United States from 1996 to 1999." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sentinel_(TV_series)
15:48:49 <bjoern_> he's got that
15:49:22 <jsled> That was an okay show...
15:49:40 <jsled> I wonder if that's the same guy from Eureka...
15:49:55 <xover> [[[
15:49:55 <xover> […] “Verschärfte Vernehmung” is German for “enhanced interrogation”. [It]
15:49:55 <xover> appears to have been concocted in 1937, to describe […] torture that would
15:49:55 <xover> leave no marks[.] The methods […] are indistinguishable from those described
15:49:55 <jsled> no.
15:49:57 <xover> […] by the president. As you can see from the Gestapo memo, moreover, the
15:49:59 <xover> Nazis were adamant that their "enhanced interrogation techniques" would be
15:50:01 <xover> carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff,
15:50:03 <xover> […] and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. […]
15:50:05 <xover> ]]] — <http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html>
15:50:33 <bjoern_> hmm!
15:50:38 <nicomen> jsled!
15:51:22 <xover> Interestingly, it cites transcipts from the Norwegian war crimes tribunal following WWII.
15:52:00 <jsled> It's too bad Andrew Sullivan blogs so much ... I really enjoy him, but there quickly become an overwhelming number of posts.
15:52:02 <jsled> nicomen.
15:56:05 <jsled> That's a great list in the memo, [[[
15:56:06 <jsled> [...] may be applied only against [...] Communists, Marxists, members of the Bible-researcher sect, [...], asocial persons, Polis or Soviet persos who refuse to work, or idlers.
15:56:06 <kpreid> jsled: write a feed processor which drops every-but-Nth post
15:56:07 <jsled> ]]]
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15:56:26 <jsled> kpreid: heh. Well, he does do this "view from your window" thing I just don't care about.
15:56:45 <jsled> I do have a collection of other filtered feeds I'd like to setup ... maybe one of these weekends.
15:57:13 <bjoern_> "terrorists" was too unspecific those days.
15:57:20 <jsled> (- <http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/29/translationofmuellermemo.jpg>, btw)
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15:59:43 <bjoern_> speaking of which, '''In Ramadi, US and Iraqi forces reportedly told residents that they would not get water, electricity, telephones and other services back unless they would hand over "the terrorists."''' -- GPF
16:01:50 *** Morbus (n=morbus@c-24-62-151-47.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
16:11:42 *** JibberJim has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:14:24 <bjoern_> .gc "The pirate of knowledge is a good pirate."
16:14:26 <phenny> "The pirate of knowledge is a good pirate." : 684
16:15:51 <Talliesin> My son composed a song about pirates.
16:16:02 <bjoern_> Arr!
16:16:22 <Talliesin> It goes "Me am singing pirate / Me am singing pirate / Me am singing pirate / Me am pirate / Me am Fiach"
16:17:12 * bjoern_ hopes that's the chorus
16:17:21 <Talliesin> That's its entirety.
16:17:31 <Talliesin> Pirate songs should not be overly complicated.
16:17:39 <bjoern_> good point.
16:17:43 <Talliesin> They're simple hardy songs for simple hardy folk.
16:18:13 <Talliesin> Especially when they are two years old.
16:18:32 <ringmaster> A pirate's life is a wonder life, a rollin' over the sea.
16:18:35 <ringmaster> Don't fear a career as a buccaneer, it's the life of a pirate for me.
16:18:54 <bjoern_> pirate song length is proportional to grog consumption.
16:19:27 <ringmaster> Then pirate songs should be very long.
16:19:43 <sbp> ringmaster! hello!
16:19:54 <ringmaster> sbp! Hi! Great to see you here!
16:20:08 <sbp> did you get the crayon I sent ya yet?
16:20:18 <ringmaster> Sadly, no.
16:20:25 <sbp> ah
16:20:32 <sbp> well you could always go out and buy a red
16:20:40 <sbp> not quite cochineal, but surely it'll work just as well
16:20:49 <sbp> for ramming it unbelievably far up your own asshole, I mean
16:21:00 <sbp> also, welcome to Swhack!
16:21:15 <ringmaster> Ooh, nasty! Maybe you should hold onto that crayon of yours.
16:22:19 <sbp> at least they're not sharp
16:22:29 <sbp> I can think of far worse things to stick in yer ass
16:22:29 <ringmaster> True.
16:22:44 <ringmaster> I bow to your experience there.
16:22:48 <sbp> good man
16:23:03 <sbp> waxy too, all the better for facilitating the shitting out of same said implements
16:23:33 <sbp> so you can repeat the process all over again; ad nauseum. or whatever the rectal equivalent of nausea is
16:25:08 <Talliesin> (5:18:35 PM) bjoern_: pirate song length is proportional to grog consumption.
16:25:08 <Talliesin> (5:19:09 PM) ringmaster: Then pirate songs should be very long.
16:25:08 <Talliesin> No, short but repeated many times.
16:25:37 <sbp> yo Talliesin :-)
16:25:57 <bjoern_> after a sufficient amount of grog, all pirate songs merge into one.
16:26:38 <Talliesin> Hey sbp. How's things?
16:27:45 *** est (n=est@adsl-71-142-105-244.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack
16:28:16 <sbp> very good, thanks!
16:28:26 <sbp> very busy, but a lot of interesting things
16:28:33 <sbp> and how're you?
16:29:54 <Talliesin> Busy. Mostly not interesting things, but plenty of interesting things too.
16:30:11 <Talliesin> Couple of projects, but no time for them.
16:30:52 <Talliesin> Em. Got engaged since last we talked, though it's going to have to be a long engagement (Irish divorce laws meaning I'm still married for a couple of years).
16:31:37 <Talliesin> Working on a RESTful full-featured bulletin board system that I'll open the source of if I ever get it as far as a half-way worthwhile 0.1 release.
16:34:46 <sbp> engaged: congratulations!
16:35:04 <sbp> ah, going to put it up on your... I forget the name of the board you administer
16:35:07 <sbp> something.ie
16:35:10 <sbp> THE BRANE
16:36:04 <bjoern_> <guy_from_parallel_universe> GET OFF MY BRANE !!!1
16:36:05 <bjoern_> ?
16:36:42 * sbp D-BRANEs the parallel BRANE guy
16:37:44 <Talliesin> Eh, well I'm more of one rank below admin on boards.ie
16:38:02 <sbp> ah
16:38:44 <bjoern_> If the parallel universe was primarily inhabited by squirrels, you'd have, OMG - A SQUIRREL D-BRANER!
16:39:11 <sbp> woah. too much
16:39:21 <sbp> we need to get d8uv to draw that in an xkcd style comic
16:39:36 <sbp> though I don't see why you can't do it, if you have a Wacom Graphics Tablet™ too
16:40:24 <bjoern_> I do, but am too afraid to use it cf. the /topic.
16:40:33 <Talliesin> And whether the benefits outweigh the costs of change to them is another thing.
16:40:33 *** rob1n (n=emp@unaffiliated/rob1n) has joined #swhack
16:40:48 <sbp> oh, right
16:41:22 <Talliesin> But the software sucks as far as scalability, and that itches something in my inner hacker, so I have to scratch :)
16:41:35 <sbp> .seen nsh
16:41:37 <phenny> Sorry, I haven't seen nsh around.
16:41:38 <sbp> @seen nsh
16:41:39 <supybot> sbp: nsh was last seen in #swhack 3 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 43 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <nsh> plimsolls?
16:41:40 <sbp> seen nsh
16:41:40 <Monty> nsh (n=nsh) was last seen by me coming from wikipedia/nsh on Wed May 23 02:41:03 BST 2007 quitting from the server with the following reason: "Leaving"
16:42:43 <bjoern_> could use a .metaseen
16:42:53 <sbp> yeah
16:42:59 <sbp> shame you can't do line breaks in @echo
16:48:32 *** perigrin (n=perigrin@c-24-118-172-252.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
16:52:20 *** Talliesin has quit ("Leaving.")
16:54:05 <Ash> @echo <br>
16:54:06 <supybot> <br>
17:05:00 <bjoern_> .gc Biometrieterror
17:05:02 <phenny> Biometrieterror: 0
17:05:14 <bjoern_> .gc Biometrieterrors
17:05:22 <phenny> Biometrieterrors: 3
17:05:38 <perigrin> .gc Biometricterrier
17:05:40 <phenny> Biometricterrier: 0
17:05:49 <perigrin> .gc Biometricterriers
17:05:51 <phenny> Biometricterriers: 0
17:17:10 *** MoiraA (i=moira@gateway/tor/x-88597fdcebd55b13) has joined #swhack
17:18:48 *** est has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:20:10 <bjoern_> hmm http://www.theonion.com/content/news/shaking_off_amnesia_gonzales explains a thing or two
17:30:29 * jsled tries to figure out how to rebuke my aunt without causing a family incident.
17:41:01 *** rob1n is now known as rob1n^away
18:05:32 <sbp> jsled: "I REBUKE THEE, AUNT" no good?
18:05:50 <sbp> can't go wrong with familiar pronouns, surely?
18:07:20 <jsled> well, considering it was some crazy FWD: about how some bill is going to make it a hate crime "for pastors and clergy to speak out against homosexuality", maybe that'd be appropriate.
18:08:18 <sbp> she's a pastor who speaks out against homosexuality?
18:08:27 <sbp> I'd just tell her I don't think they should have women clergymen
18:08:31 <jsled> she is not a pastor, no.
18:08:33 <sbp> end of discussion
18:08:37 <sbp> ah
18:08:49 <jsled> heh. Well, it's the Catholic church, so she already agrees (presumably).
18:08:55 <sbp> hehe
18:12:22 *** deltab (n=deltab@82-36-30-34.cable.ubr02.smal.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
18:12:22 <Monty> hi deltab
18:12:37 <sbp> hey deltab
18:14:18 <deltab> hi
18:19:42 *** eikeon_ (n=eikeon@129-2-175-74.wireless.umd.edu) has joined #swhack
18:20:42 <MoiraA> hi
18:20:47 * MoiraA is finally on holiday for a week
18:20:53 <MoiraA> birthday on sunday, then off to shetland
18:21:09 <MoiraA> experience "the summer dim" on 21st June
18:21:17 <MoiraA> we will watch sunset turn to sunrise in half an hour
18:21:21 <MoiraA> and never lose daylight
18:21:35 *** rob1n^away is now known as rob1n
18:23:55 <perigrin> I've heard nice things about shetland
18:24:18 <crschmidt> I hear things about their ponies.
18:24:40 *** jcowan (n=jcowan@cpe-66-108-117-254.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
18:24:46 <bjoern_> .gc "quod per sortem sternit fortem"
18:24:49 <phenny> "quod per sortem sternit fortem": 6,750
18:25:02 <jcowan> Ittywhonk!
18:25:13 <perigrin> crschmidt, Yes the ponies are rather famous
18:25:30 <perigrin> but the grass roofed houses look cool in the pictures.
18:26:39 * jcowan starts to throw stones.
18:27:08 <MoiraA> yeah the ponies are everywhere and they're ever so sweet
18:27:19 <MoiraA> most houses with families have one as a pet for their kids
18:27:35 <jcowan> Where is this?
18:27:44 <deltab> ponies *and* grass-rooved houses? that sounds like an accident waiting to happen
18:27:46 <crschmidt> Shetland.
18:27:52 <bjoern_> Hello jcowan, welcome to #Swhack.
18:28:04 <bjoern_> Tis Teh Intarnetz.
18:28:28 <jcowan> Why thank you, bjoern_.
18:29:03 <jcowan> (I know I could have looked for the context at swhack.com, but I decided to exercise the privilege of teh webizenry -- to not bother.)
18:30:41 <bjoern_> Oh I actually thoght you'd totally lost it, throwing stones and asking your way out of the misery.
18:31:20 <bjoern_> Indeed, thinking about it, why else would anyone come to #swhack.
18:32:20 <jcowan> Those who live in grass-roofed houses should not throw stones. Or have stones thrown at them. Or whatever.
18:32:57 <jcowan> The trouble is that I'm less wacky than I used to be and consequently when I'm on #swhack the probability of a "bar that's merry" is far less.
18:32:59 <bjoern_> I thought that applies only to glass house owners.
18:33:11 <sbp> MoiraA: happy birthday, for then!
18:33:15 * jcowan waves his hand airily.
18:33:38 <jcowan> Grass, glass, what's the diff?!
18:33:49 <bjoern_> You can't smoke glass.
18:34:03 <sbp> .gc "smoked glass"
18:34:05 <phenny> "smoked glass": 200,000
18:34:11 <sbp> au contraire
18:34:17 <deltab> people in grass-roofed houses shouldn't let their ponies onto the roof, no matter how lush the grass is
18:34:41 <jcowan> Well, I assume this is turf rather than woven grass, no?
18:34:42 <sbp> what if there the pony is tethered?
18:34:55 <sbp> s/there // (where'd that come from?)
18:35:06 <sbp> (I was going to say "there are railings", I admit it!)
18:36:44 <MoiraA> heh thanks sbp
18:36:53 <MoiraA> guess how old I'll be?#
18:37:42 <sbp> oh come now. that's cruel
18:37:49 <sbp> 23?
18:38:17 * sbp will proceed to increment a year at a time until you tell us... if 23 isn't correct, of course!
18:38:25 <sbp> goodness, you may even be younger!
18:38:27 <MoiraA> 50
18:38:31 <MoiraA> :)
18:38:33 <sbp> ooh, awesome!
18:38:33 <MoiraA> big landmark
18:38:35 <sbp> aye
18:38:48 <MoiraA> well, there are compensations
18:38:50 <sbp> little round of applause from the crowd too, and you get to take your hat off
18:38:55 <MoiraA> car insurance becomes cheaper :)
18:38:58 <sbp> heheh
18:39:12 <MoiraA> heh, some people aren't lucky enough to reach 50
18:39:20 <bjoern_> 50! condolences!
18:39:24 <MoiraA> we're having a big family meal on sunday - 14 of us
18:39:32 <MoiraA> I'm quite happy bjoern_
18:39:39 <MoiraA> I've done what I want to do out of life up to now
18:39:45 <sbp> bjoern_: indeed. life begins at forty, so she's only ten, which means that she's got that diffcult teenage period coming up
18:39:53 <MoiraA> haha
18:39:57 * MoiraA isn't difficult
18:40:02 <MoiraA> I'm quite placid really
18:40:02 <sbp> :-)
18:40:10 <MoiraA> and upfront
18:40:11 <bjoern_> I am not difficult either! The rest of the world is, though.
18:40:13 <sbp> I'll bet the story changes out on the golf course
18:40:15 <MoiraA> what you see is what you get
18:40:24 <sbp> .wik WYSIWYG
18:40:25 <MoiraA> well, I haven't played golf for ages
18:40:27 <phenny> "WYSIWYG (IPA Pronunciation [wɪziwɪg] or [wiziwɪg]), is an acronym for What You See Is What You Get, used in computing to describe a system in which content during editing appears very similar to the final product.[1] It is commonly used for word processors, but has [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG
18:40:29 <sbp> oh dear
18:41:08 <bjoern_> ooh phenny supports teasers now
18:41:19 <sbp> man, you can just see the wɪziwɪg vs. wiziwɪg flames now can't you?
18:41:19 <bjoern_> but has ... WHAT? where's the twist? I must click at once!
18:41:26 <sbp> hehe
18:41:34 <sbp> the [1] confused her sentence detector
18:42:16 <sbp> MoiraA: hope you get lots of nice pressies
18:42:55 <MoiraA> thanks!
18:42:56 <bjoern_> I never realized how similar "u" and "re" look...
18:43:01 <MoiraA> I'm getting my hair done tomorrow
18:43:18 <MoiraA> then louise and emily fly in saturday evening and my cousin comes up from Leeds
18:43:20 <sbp> change of style?
18:43:27 <MoiraA> yep
18:43:33 <MoiraA> not been to a hairdresser for about 25 years
18:43:39 <MoiraA> getting highlights and a cut
18:43:43 <sbp> aha. ooh, highlights
18:43:47 <bjoern_> mid life hair cuts
18:43:54 <MoiraA> my hair's never really needed anything doing - and it isn't at all grey etc
18:44:01 <sbp> hehe. last was before your 25th birthday?
18:44:03 <MoiraA> but I fancy a change
18:44:07 <sbp> that is cool. next before your 75th!
18:44:09 <MoiraA> yeah just about
18:44:11 <MoiraA> honestly
18:44:18 <MoiraA> it's just very long and blond and straight right now
18:44:40 <sbp> blonde, surely?
18:44:42 <MoiraA> the only sad thing is my mother won't be there
18:44:46 <MoiraA> she didn't live to see my 50th
18:44:47 <MoiraA> but it won't spoil the occasion
18:44:53 <MoiraA> blonde
18:44:54 <MoiraA> yeah
18:45:02 <MoiraA> silver even or white
18:45:08 <MoiraA> something that stands out
18:45:20 <sbp> ah, sorry to hear that
18:45:36 <MoiraA> yeah, I know Dad will be feeling it
18:45:46 <MoiraA> still, he's coming to shetland with us two days later
18:46:02 <crschmidt> So, I'm looking at http://openlayers.org/dev/examples/wrapDateLine.html
18:46:02 <MoiraA> and we're all off to New Zealand in Feb - did I tell you that?
18:46:08 <crschmidt> and I load it in xml.dom.minidom
18:46:11 <sbp> the sub-categories in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blonde#Etymology.2C_spelling.2C_and_grammar are fun
18:46:13 <MoiraA> we have cousins over there I've never visited
18:46:18 <sbp> MoiraA: yeah, I think you did!
18:46:29 <sbp> how long for?
18:46:31 <crschmidt> and getElementById() doesn't seem to work
18:46:34 <crschmidt> And I don't know why :(
18:46:36 <MoiraA> I'm exited already, I've told everyone about ten times :)
18:46:47 <MoiraA> 3 weeks - my sister can't leave the business for longer than that
18:46:52 <MoiraA> she runs her own opticians
18:47:00 <sbp> aha
18:47:10 <MoiraA> sorry crschmidt, I'm interrupting you two
18:47:16 <crschmidt> no, I wasn't talking to anyone
18:47:19 <sbp> nope, I'm not listening to him
18:47:19 <crschmidt> I was definitely interrupting
18:47:20 * MoiraA will shut up :)
18:47:21 <sbp> hehehe
18:47:36 * sbp waves to crschmidt
18:47:46 <crschmidt> It was all my fault
18:47:56 <sbp> crschmidt: MoiraA's going to *New Zealand*. what are you doing? :-)
18:48:04 <crschmidt> I got married
18:48:04 <sbp> what was wrong?
18:48:08 <sbp> oh, heh
18:48:09 <perigrin> New Zeland?
18:48:15 <perigrin> I thought Shetland was off the coast of Scotland?
18:48:22 <MoiraA> he's trying to figure out why getElementById doesn't work :)
18:48:31 <sbp> "damn, why isn't getElementById() working? argh, oh right... got married. sigh"
18:48:33 <crschmidt> Yep!
18:48:39 <MoiraA> shetland is several hundred miles north of scotland
18:48:42 <sbp> "'The Great Indoor Fight'"
18:48:49 <MoiraA> you just got married crschmidt?
18:48:55 <crschmidt> Yep
18:49:01 <MoiraA> congrats :)
18:49:08 <MoiraA> enjoying married life?
18:49:13 <perigrin> MoiraA, which to the scots is "Just a wee bit off th' coast."
18:49:18 <MoiraA> so few people seem to get married these days, it's nice to meet someone who does
18:49:22 <sbp> of course not. getElementById doesn't work!
18:49:34 <MoiraA> shetlanders don't consider themselves scottish, they're more viking
18:49:48 <sbp> what about orcadians?
18:49:59 <bjoern_> .gc putElementById
18:50:00 <crschmidt> I'm sorry, I meant that interrupting was my fault
18:50:02 <phenny> putElementById: 0
18:50:07 <crschmidt> I haven't fixed my getElementById problem
18:50:09 <sbp> ah
18:50:10 <perigrin> But the question remains would getElementById work in shetland?
18:50:16 <sbp> .gc headElementById
18:50:19 <phenny> headElementById: 0
18:50:21 <MoiraA> now I don't know .... I do know someone in another channel who lives in Orkney, so I'll ask him
18:50:21 <MoiraA> in fact, he's living in shetland at the moment, working there for 6 months
18:50:33 <sbp> excellent
18:50:37 <MoiraA> sure it would perigrin :)
18:50:43 <MoiraA> everything works in shetland
18:50:52 <MoiraA> I finally got my photopage to work properly
18:50:56 <MoiraA> tackled tables manually
18:51:05 <MoiraA> CSS would be better but that looked complicated
18:51:36 <sbp> I just put lots of IMGs in a <p>...
18:51:46 <sbp> then img { margin: 1em; } or whatever
18:51:51 <MoiraA> well, I had a lot of code that wasn't doing anything
18:52:05 <MoiraA> and it was displaying differently in different browsers
18:52:17 <MoiraA> so I decided it needed to be more restrained
18:52:19 <MoiraA> in a table
18:52:23 <bjoern_> I'd use XAML to piss off web standards nazis.
18:52:29 <MoiraA> and the pictures I always hard code the size
18:52:37 <sbp> .gc "web standards nazis"
18:52:40 <phenny> "web standards nazis": 2
18:53:15 <perigrin> .gc "web nonstandard nazis"
18:53:18 <phenny> "web nonstandard nazis": 0
18:53:18 <sbp> [[[
18:53:19 <sbp> I've probably been hanging around Web standards nazis for too long,
18:53:19 <sbp> but can we get a separate code to mark the title of a document that
18:53:19 <sbp> can't be linked to (say, a book) along the lines of HTML's <cite> tag?
18:53:20 <sbp> ]]]
18:53:30 <sbp> - http://groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6.language/msg/ae31aefeb8c41d43
18:54:08 <bjoern_> '''Well, I do describe myself as a "web standards nazi, liberal left-of-centre communitarian type" so clearly I\rquote m a key part of the axis of evil. No wonder no one wants to friend me on Friendster.'''
18:55:02 <sbp> where's that from?
18:55:27 <bjoern_> .g "web standards nazi, liberal left-of-centre"
18:55:30 <phenny> bjoern_: http://www.dzr-web.com/people/darren/blog/2007/01/21/google-ads/
18:55:33 <sbp> nevermind, got it
18:55:33 <sbp> yeah
18:55:39 <deltab> .gc roofing rooving
18:55:42 <phenny> roofing rooving: 285
18:55:48 <deltab> .gf roofing rooving
18:55:56 <sbp> .compare roofing rooving
18:55:59 <phenny> roofing (19,300,000), rooving (2,380)
18:56:12 <sbp> .compare dwarfs dwarfes dwarvs dwarves
18:56:14 <phenny> dwarfs (5,420,000), dwarves (3,270,000), dwarfes (14,900), dwarvs (4,460)
18:56:21 <MoiraA> well, I must get on wading through email etcfd
18:56:27 <MoiraA> catch you later sbp, bjoern_
18:56:28 <sbp> fd?
18:56:30 <sbp> c'ya!
18:56:30 <bjoern_> .compare zwerg zwerge
18:56:32 <phenny> zwerge (2,800,000), zwerg (2,410,000)
18:56:38 <MoiraA> typo :)
18:56:44 <sbp> hehfd
18:56:44 <bjoern_> c.u.
18:56:46 <MoiraA> I'll enjoy my last two days of being 49
18:56:47 <sbp> fair enoughfd
18:56:51 <sbp> yep!
18:56:54 <sbp> hope the rehairing goes well
18:56:55 <MoiraA> byefd
18:56:59 <sbp> c'ya!
18:57:07 <MoiraA> I'll upload a picturefd
18:57:09 <sbp> hehe
18:57:09 <MoiraA> :)
18:57:11 <sbp> sweet
18:57:24 <bjoern_> it's a file descriptor obviously
18:57:28 <bjoern_> .wik fd
18:57:28 <sbp> but of course
18:57:31 <phenny> "The Canon FD lens mount, the lens mount made by cannon." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fd
18:57:39 <sbp> ... made by cannon?!
18:58:02 <deltab> the factory is one of the noisiest in the world
18:58:10 <sbp> heh. edited before I even clicked edit
18:58:37 <sbp> deltab: chuckle
19:00:35 <perigrin> deltab, it was thunderous.
19:01:32 <perigrin> "We need five hundred lens mounts by friday! Get 'em loaded boys. FIRE!"
19:02:54 <bjoern_> Which leads us again to pirate songs.
19:03:15 <deltab> that line was previously "* The [[Canon FD lens mount]], the manual predecessor of the [[Canon EF lens mount]]." before it was "Updated per WP:STYLE"
19:04:29 <bjoern_> WP:EINSUFFICIENTLYHILARIOUS
19:04:50 <sbp> hehe
19:06:56 * crschmidt returns after dealing with Boss and coworker
19:07:25 <crschmidt> So, contrary to popular belief, I still can't use getElementById on http://openlayers.org/dev/examples/wrapDateLine.html#title and get anything useful.
19:07:28 <crschmidt> What am I doing wrong?
19:08:35 <bjoern_> so what does getElementById return?
19:08:40 <crschmidt> None
19:08:53 <bjoern_> you mean `null`?
19:09:05 <crschmidt> I'm in Python, where 'null' is None
19:09:14 <sbp> crschmidt: possibly it's invalid XML?
19:09:23 <crschmidt> shouldn't xml.dom.minidom blow up?
19:09:28 <bjoern_> err
19:09:37 <crschmidt> sbp: xmllint doesn't complain
19:09:42 <bjoern_> why would any xml tool recognize the id="" attributes as IDs?
19:09:46 <sbp> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fopenlayers.org%2Fdev%2Fexamples%2FwrapDateLine.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=XHTML+1.0+Transitional
19:10:00 <crschmidt> bjoern_: How do you define IDs in XML?
19:10:06 <sbp> it's defined in the DTD
19:10:09 <bjoern_> DTDs or built-in knowledge
19:10:16 <sbp> and that document doesn't have a DTD
19:10:31 <crschmidt> Ah.
19:10:42 <crschmidt> So I can't use getElementById() to get anything useful. Okay.
19:10:57 <bjoern_> Well you could add <!DOCTYPE html [ <!ATTLIST p id ID #IMPLIED> <!ATTLIST div id ID #IMPLIED> <!ATTLIST span id ID #IMPLIED> ... ]>
19:11:02 <bjoern_> then it might work
19:11:58 <sbp> bjoern_: nope
19:12:05 <sbp> >>> u = urllib.urlopen('http://openlayers.org/dev/examples/wrapDateLine.html')
19:12:05 <sbp> >>> bytes = u.read()
19:12:05 <sbp> >>> u.close()
19:12:05 <sbp> >>> d = xml.dom.minidom.parseString(bytes)
19:12:05 <sbp> >>> d.getElementById('title')
19:12:06 <sbp> >>> bytes = '<!DOCTYPE html [ <!ATTLIST p id ID #IMPLIED> <!ATTLIST div id ID #IMPLIED> <!ATTLIST span id ID #IMPLIED> ]>' + bytes
19:12:09 <sbp> >>> d = xml.dom.minidom.parseString(bytes)>>> d.getElementById('title')>>>
19:12:13 <sbp> weird wrapping at the bottom there
19:12:35 <bjoern_> so when would getElementById work?
19:12:52 <bjoern_> well
19:12:55 <bjoern_> #title is a h1!
19:13:22 <deltab> http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-xml-id-20050909/
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19:15:40 <crschmidt> heh: "eautiful Soup uses a class called UnicodeDammit to detect the encodings of documents you give it and convert them to Unicode, no matter what. If you need to do this for other documents (without using Beautiful Soup to parse them), you can use UnicodeDammit by itself. It's heavily based on code from the Universal Feed Parser."
19:19:05 *** rob1n is now known as rob1n^away
19:23:30 <sbp> okay, fucking with my python2.5/xml/dom/minidom.py
19:23:38 <sbp> it now starts:
19:23:38 <sbp> def getElementById(self, id):
19:23:38 <sbp> if self._id_cache.has_key(id):
19:23:38 <sbp> print 'P'
19:23:38 <sbp> return self._id_cache[id]
19:23:38 <sbp> if not (self._elem_info or self._magic_id_count):
19:23:40 <sbp> print 'Q', self._elem_info, self._magic_id_count
19:23:42 <sbp> return None
19:23:46 <sbp> and I get this:
19:23:50 <sbp> >>> xml.dom.minidom.parseString('<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd"><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head><title>test</title></head><body><p id="test">...</p></body></html>').getElementById('test')
19:23:54 <sbp> Q {} 0
19:23:56 <sbp> but I'm not sure why those are {} and 0...
19:24:49 <Jabberwock> If I knew python I'd attempt a go at helping you
19:25:18 <bjoern_> no you wouldn't.
19:25:41 <sbp> self._elem_info is never actually written to in the file... very weird
19:26:00 * sbp comments the Q section out
19:26:15 <sbp> hmm. this time it gets further on, but still no output
19:26:32 <bjoern_> perhaps you have not indented your code properly!
19:26:44 <sbp> shup foo
19:27:05 <sbp> it'd display a SyntaxError if that were the case, anyway... :-)
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19:30:11 <sbp> hmm
19:30:11 <sbp> [[[
19:30:12 <sbp> I've read that getElementById is broken. I looked at
19:30:12 <sbp> it in the minidom.py and it looked well enough, though
19:30:12 <sbp> when I apply it to well formed documents with
19:30:12 <sbp> namespace attributes like like xhtml classes it seems
19:30:13 <sbp> to only return 'None'.
19:30:20 <sbp> ]]] - http://mail.python.org/pipermail/xml-sig/2006-April.txt
19:30:28 <sbp> classes? what's 'e on about?
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19:32:32 <sbp> well getElementsByTagName works...
19:32:41 <sbp> stuff like documentElement etc. seems to work too
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19:36:26 <sbp> hmm, self._get_elem_info(node) always gives None
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19:36:40 <sbp> presumably related to self._elem_info being empty
19:42:40 <jsled> http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/OMGWTF-Highlights-3-Code.aspx #textSearchFor("several hardware emulation")
19:43:04 <jsled> (which would probably be a more useful functional fragment identifier than xpointer...)
19:43:58 <bjoern_> that's an xpointer, except for the unescaped spaces and such and that textSearchFor has not yet been registered
19:44:16 <bjoern_> and the OMG WHAT KIND OF MESSY SPEC IS THIS problem
19:44:58 <bjoern_> aah "subresources" was the term...
19:47:24 <sbp> bwahahaha
19:47:29 <sbp> someone just searched for [yiffy dragon too many dicks] again!
19:47:35 <sbp> and landed on Whits this time
19:48:53 <sbp> okay, so I hacked the ass out of xml.dom.minidom
19:49:06 <sbp> I can only conclude it's something higher up the food chain
19:49:09 <sbp> in expat or whatever
19:50:16 <sbp> you could write your own getElementById...
19:50:28 <bjoern_> you did notice that your earlier attempt at prepending my doctype didn't work because the id was on a h1 element which the fragment did not account for, and that the latter attempt probably did not work due to not reading external dtds?
19:50:46 <sbp> yeah, but it bloody well should do
19:50:51 <sbp> xml:id doesn't work either
19:51:03 <sbp> and if it's not worth having built-in knowledge of XHTML, then well...
19:52:48 <bjoern_> I'm still totally amazed that my grammar engine has a 10-20 MB / s throughput on my 2666 MHz Celeron with not-too-fast RAM.
19:52:55 <sbp> >>> xml.dom.minidom.parseString('<!DOCTYPE html [ <!ATTLIST p id ID #IMPLIED> ]><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head><title>test</title></head><body><p id="test">...</p></body></html>').getElementById('test')
19:52:58 <sbp> ^ also doesn't work
19:53:12 <bjoern_> time to write hate mail to whoever maintains the shit!
19:53:14 <sbp> what's this grammar engine you're doing?
19:53:18 <sbp> hehe
19:53:46 <sbp> last time I did that they said "It's fixed in CVS."
19:54:05 <sbp> there's a post somewhere about fixed-in-CVS responses being harmful
19:54:11 <sbp> but I didn't send it to them. probably should've
19:54:21 <bjoern_> it's still the same I wrote in march, april, and may... you give it a context sensitive grammar and a string, and it tells you how many characters matched sucessfully
19:54:45 <sbp> huh
19:54:54 <sbp> didn't it start out as simple regexp optimisation?
19:55:34 <bjoern_> no. regexp optimization is relevant only in so far as that it can convert regular grammars into very ugly but correct regular expressions
19:56:12 <bjoern_> even if it has left or right recursion and such, which many grammars do, for which consequently regexpn are usually unavailable or incorrect
19:56:14 <sbp> what about the HTML grammars that you made and that mini Javascript(?) validator?
19:56:42 <bjoern_> the DTD validator is where I left it those days
19:56:59 <sbp> hmm?
19:57:29 <bjoern_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2006Nov/0000.html
19:57:35 <bjoern_> the grammar engine is basically RELAX NG for strings
19:57:43 <bjoern_> with more features!
19:58:50 <sbp> ooh
19:59:08 <sbp> bwahaha at the subject
19:59:43 <sbp> man, more of those /temp/ URIs
20:00:34 <sbp> what's the grammar engine written in?
20:00:38 <bjoern_> C
20:00:41 <sbp> ooh
20:01:46 <bjoern_> the main purpose is to validate stuff like URI schemes, regular expressions, ...
20:01:59 <sbp> yeah
20:02:07 <sbp> grey areas at the moment
20:02:08 <bjoern_> my test grammars are for XML and JSON though
20:02:20 <sbp> wow, it covers XML?!
20:02:23 <sbp> so it must support -!
20:02:47 <bjoern_> well the context-free parts of it, it's a literal version of the EBNF grammar in the spec
20:03:34 <bjoern_> so it does not check for duplicate attributes, cannot find errors like <foo></bar> (though would find <?xml ...?><foo><foo></foo>)
20:04:10 <sbp> hmm, I hadn't even thought about that
20:04:26 <sbp> you can check for <foo></bar> in extended regexp though, of course
20:04:49 <sbp> not nestedly though...
20:05:15 <bjoern_> actually you could, with embedded Perl code...
20:05:18 <sbp> though you will be able to in perl6 with its craziness... blurring the lines between ... right
20:05:25 <sbp> that possible in perl5 too?
20:05:34 <bjoern_> Yes
20:05:37 <sbp> cool
20:05:40 <bjoern_> to some extend
20:06:19 <bjoern_> My engine also supports intersection and negation
20:06:34 <bjoern_> so you can say things like "/foo/ but not /bar/"
20:06:34 <sbp> I predict that in 2050 languages will be three times more powerful, three thousand times more expensive, and only the five richest kings of Europe will be able to afford them
20:07:06 <sbp> yeah, that's what I meant by "so it must support -!"
20:07:33 <sbp> bits of the XML EBNF require that, I recall
20:08:06 <bjoern_> yeah, I can do any-name-but-not-"xml" like for PI targets
20:08:11 * sbp misquoted Frinky, but close enough... should've said longer for larger or something, perhaps
20:08:19 <sbp> sweet
20:08:42 <bjoern_> I can also compute an ugly regex for that (any string that's not "xml") which quickly gets tricky to write manually
20:09:14 <sbp> yeah, I remember doing it for just two characters here on Swhack
20:09:50 <sbp> r'\w|[^\Wp]\w|\w[^\Wy]|\w{3,}'
20:09:57 <bjoern_> it's not uncommon in comp.text.xml for people to ask doing this for things like /^(foo|bar|baz|...)$/
20:10:35 <sbp> not (not word characters or p)...
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20:11:06 <bjoern_> all strings that are no URIs!
20:11:12 <sbp> oh man
20:11:16 <sbp> scary!
20:11:27 <sbp> man, that'll be an awesome regexp
20:11:30 <sbp> can you compute it now?
20:11:41 <sbp> is it really possible?
20:12:32 <bjoern_> regular languages are closed under complement, so !regex is again a regex
20:12:45 <bjoern_> since URIs, at least the generic form, are a regular language, yes
20:12:53 <sbp> compute it, compute it!
20:13:05 <bjoern_> I probably could compute it now if I had the ABNF grammar in my grammar format...
20:13:19 <sbp> rats. you haven't got the URI ABNF in there?
20:13:27 <sbp> much more interesting that cacky JSON
20:13:52 <sbp> you should write abnf2bshbnf next
20:13:55 <bjoern_> Well I hope someone writes me a ABNF to .xlx converter...
20:14:06 <sbp> oh, you're calling it xlx? what's that stand for?
20:14:29 <bjoern_> [07 Feb 07 19:05] * bjoern_ * I think I'm going to call my grammar engine Alexander, for it casts holy judgement upon thy strings. It also makes for a sweet alx prefix resembling x-pressions.
20:14:29 <bjoern_> [07 Feb 07 19:05] * sbp * sweet
20:14:31 <sbp> Extensibly Laconic Xylophones
20:14:57 <sbp> so xlx is the XML version of alx?
20:14:59 <bjoern_> so the prefix for most things is "alx"
20:15:04 <bjoern_> right, pretty much
20:15:29 <bjoern_> I don't have a .alx format yet though (which would mirror RNG Compact Syntax in some way, if someone writes the spec and parser...)
20:15:39 <sbp> gotcha
20:15:49 <sbp> RNC came after RNG anyway
20:16:05 <sbp> should be possible to do with with XSLT... that'd be un
20:16:08 <sbp> er, fun
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20:16:47 <bjoern_> is my current grammar for XML
20:17:40 <sbp> ooh, it's very RNG-like
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20:19:11 <crschmidt> speaking of grammars:
20:19:11 <crschmidt> 16:09:02 <@anselm> this leads to the obvious desire to define a constraint based grammer for specifying home design
20:20:57 <BigJibby> .compare grammer grammar
20:21:00 <phenny> grammar (51,000,000), grammer (3,840,000)
20:21:10 <bjoern_> .gc Grammatik
20:21:13 <phenny> Grammatik: 9,550,000
20:26:53 <sbp> .pc ö
20:26:56 <phenny> 00F6: LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS (ö)
20:27:04 * sbp is writing about Bjoern again...
20:33:44 <Jabberwock> Ad guray nameh
20:35:23 * sbp posts a thing about architectural grammar to the regular
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20:46:13 <bjoern_> .gc "Freedom is untidy"
20:46:15 <phenny> "Freedom is untidy": 1,300
20:46:38 <bjoern_> I'd like a HTML Untidy tool
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20:47:36 <xover> bjoern_: Load it up in FrontPage?
20:47:53 <sbp> bwahaha
20:48:42 <bjoern_> Well I was wondering about making such a comment, but from what I hear they are supposed to be quite good at not messing with your markup nowadays, at least so long as you don't wysiwygedit it.
20:49:02 <sbp> FrontPage --gui $1
20:49:07 <sbp> rather...
20:49:12 <sbp> FrontPage --wysiwyg $1
20:49:15 <bjoern_> although I also heard about latest "Golive" that it turns your nice table layouts into CSS mess.
20:49:42 <sbp> <span style="display:table-cell">...</span>?
20:49:49 <bjoern_> if only!
20:49:54 <sbp> oh dear
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20:54:08 <perigrin> phenny, tell darobin www.lost.eu/53136
20:54:10 <phenny> perigrin: I'll pass that on when darobin is around.
20:54:51 <bjoern_> "LOST is a student project that is fast becoming one of the largest online games of all time."
20:55:03 <perigrin> yeah I've never heard of i.
20:55:05 <perigrin> er it
20:55:09 <bjoern_> .wik LOST
20:55:11 <phenny> "Lost is an American serial drama television series that follows the lives of plane crash survivors on a tropical island, somewhere in the South Pacific." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOST
20:56:06 <perigrin> "This game is a student project that aims to show how 7 million people connect and become the game with the most number of players ever."
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22:31:59 <deltab_> deltab: die
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