00:03:05 <bancus> .ety truant
00:03:07 <phenny> "c.1225 (implied in truandise), 'beggar, vagabond,' from O.Fr. truant 'beggar, rogue' (12c.), from Gaulish *trougant- (cf. Breton *truan, later truant 'vagabond,' Welsh truan 'wretch,' Gaelic truaghan 'wretched')." - http://etymonline.com/?term=truant
00:14:34 <bancus> I love how the spell check, in all this early english, only flags libertie
00:14:57 <bancus> but words like myselfe, beleeue, and Muscouite are apparently fine
00:23:26 <bancus> .ety dactyl
00:23:28 <phenny> "1398, from Gk. dactylos 'finger,' of unknown origin; the metrical use (a long syllable followed by two short ones) is by analogy with the three joints of a finger." - http://etymonline.com/?term=dactyl
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03:01:05 <bjoern_> .calc 2^64 bytes in TB
03:01:08 <phenny> (2^64) bytes = 16 777 216 terabytes
03:01:58 <nicomen> .calc one stone in feet
03:02:00 <phenny> nicomen: Sorry, no result.
03:02:54 <jsled> .calc one kilometer in smoots
03:02:57 <phenny> one kilometer = 587.613116 smoots
03:03:17 <jsled> .calc 2^30 bytes in GiB
03:03:20 <phenny> jsled: Sorry, no result.
03:03:36 <jsled> .calc 2^30 bytes in GB
03:03:38 <phenny> (2^30) bytes = 1 gigabyte
03:03:43 <jsled> phenny: :p
03:04:29 <nicomen> 10^500 bits in bytes
03:04:37 <nicomen> .calc 10^500 bits in bytes
03:04:39 <phenny> nicomen: Sorry, no result.
03:04:45 <nicomen> .calc 10^499 bits in bytes
03:04:47 <phenny> nicomen: Sorry, no result.
03:04:49 <nicomen> bah
03:05:05 <Mike_L> .calc 2^40 bytes in GiB
03:05:08 <phenny> Mike_L: Sorry, no result.
03:05:22 <Mike_L> .calc 2^40 bytes in billions of bytes
03:05:24 <phenny> Mike_L: Sorry, no result.
03:05:41 <Mike_L> .calc 8 bits in bytes
03:05:43 <phenny> 8 bits = 1 bytes
03:05:48 <nicomen> even my calculator could use 10**499
03:05:48 <Mike_L> .calc 8 bits in nibbles
03:05:48 <phenny> 8 bits = 2 nibbles
03:06:03 <nicomen> google schmoogle
03:06:04 <Mike_L> nicomen: complain to sbp
03:06:19 <jsled> .gc "cheftestant"
03:06:20 <phenny> "cheftestant": 1,190
03:06:31 <nicomen> Mike_L: not his fault
03:07:04 <Mike_L> .compare "chocolate covered raisins" "chocolate covered peanuts" "chocolate covered ants"
03:07:06 <phenny> "chocolate covered raisins" (79,200), "chocolate covered peanuts" (39,100), "chocolate covered ants" (34,800)
03:07:23 <bjoern_> 'calc' just calls out to google.
03:07:40 <Mike_L> oh that's 14m3
03:08:11 <Mike_L> the last chocolate covered raisins to come out of this bag are the smallest ones :)
03:09:31 <Mike_L> I wonder if there's a solid shape that would not settle with the smaller instances at the bottom of the bag and the larger ones at the top?
03:09:56 <jsled> Wow. There is more mayo than *HAM* in this recipe: http://www.kraftfoods.com/party-recipes/party_01.html
03:10:51 <Mike_L> gross
03:12:21 <jsled> Jesus. 24oz of cream cheese. Oh, and 1/4 of green pepper. Don't use much more, though, because it's not Manufactured.
03:13:13 <Arnia> Does this warrant being called a 'recipe' rather than a 'serving suggestion'? http://www.kraftfoods.com/main.aspx?s=recipe&m=recipe/knet_recipe_display&u1=bytype&u2=5*&u3=**1*322&wf=9&recipe_id=106813
03:13:50 <Mike_L> Kraft is owned by Phillip Morris (now Altria) which produces cigarettes, markets them to young people all over the world, and hires pretty girls to hand them out to young men in Thailand and Vietnam
03:14:43 <Mike_L> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/tobacco/stories/asia.htm <--- and other nasty stuff
03:16:12 <Mike_L> so I try not to buy Kraft products or the products of their subsidiaries, such as Nabisco
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03:25:15 <Monty> hi perigrin, how ya doing?
03:25:15 <phenny> Monty: shh, don't let anyone know you're around!
03:25:17 <Monty> humping machine == scraps;
03:25:53 <perigrin> Monty, not bad. How are you?
03:25:57 <Monty> 415 sek to limit the young man may give, at (with malice), cast an ...
03:30:34 <Mike_L> Monty: where did you hear 415 sek?
03:30:34 <Monty> hm
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04:36:29 <jcowan> Ittywhonk!
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08:12:34 <sbp> yo
08:20:36 <sbp> .gc planogram
08:20:39 <phenny> planogram: 94,500
08:21:31 <sbp> e.g. http://persephone.blueheath.com/shop/NestleCatMan/Images/PLANOGRAM%20EXAMPLE%202.jpg
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08:22:52 <xover> `mornin.
08:23:29 <sbp> yo!
08:23:39 <xover> How's the N&Q petition coming?
08:23:46 <sbp> oh right! thanks
08:26:59 <sbp> heh, Firefox 1.5 beats Safari and Opera on http://www.css3.info/selectors-test/test.html
08:28:05 <sbp> heh @ http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:www.windowsmarketplace.com/details.aspx%3Fitemid%3D3411347
08:29:55 * sbp gets http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/apple/iphone/2007/welcome/apple-iphone-welcome_848x480.zip
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08:33:12 <xover> sbp: Lawyer Self-pwnage saga continues btw: http://tjic.com/?p=6135
08:35:03 <sbp> heh. caption: "Windsor Castle played host to the annual Order of the Garter service which was attended by Queen Elizabeth II." photo: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42412000/jpg/_42412292_4.jpg
08:35:06 <sbp> xover: ooh, thanks
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08:45:51 <sbp> wow, it goes on and on
08:46:05 <Tene> That's... wow.
08:47:28 <xover> That's about on par for Landsharks.
08:48:14 <Tene> all the lawyers I've met have been rather clever and respectful.
08:48:26 <Tene> Perhaps I'm not meeting the right lawyers.
08:48:39 <sbp> or vice versa
08:48:52 <Tene> Perhaps.
08:48:54 <sbp> in Soviet Russia, versa vices you!
08:53:47 <xover> Wow this is stupid. A 174.8MB movie offered for download as a 173.7MB .zip file.
08:54:20 <Tene> xover: at least it's not 190MB of multipart rars
08:54:45 <xover> Yeah, I'm expecting that any day now.:-(
08:55:41 <xover> Browser vendors (including Safari team): Please stop assuming that the world lives inside the browser window; I already have an OS.
08:56:00 <Tene> xover: specific example?
08:56:53 <xover> Media Player vendors (including QuickTime team): Please stop imposing artificial limitations on what I can do with a bit of media — like saving it to disk — it'll only force me to use VLC instead of your crappy product.
08:57:44 <xover> Tene: Browsers will generally treat any text file with a '<' in the first couple of hundred bytes as HTMl in spite of a text/plain MIME type.
08:57:53 <Tene> kk
08:58:27 <xover> In the above case, the movie is packed in a .zip because otherwise clicking on the “Download” link would have displayed the movie inline in the browser.
08:58:43 <Tene> wtf?!
08:58:52 <Tene> ><
08:58:55 <Tene> braindead.
08:59:26 <xover> And since Quicktime routinely disables the “Save” function, users are unable to or not used to saving movies being displayed in their browsers.
09:00:36 <xover> Now if only I could persuade John to write up /that/ instead of cluelessly beating up on “Corporate IT”…
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09:06:27 <xover> Wow, the presenter in the iPhone tour looks like… I dunno. A Jobs-ified accountant?
09:07:25 <sbp> hehe
09:09:54 <sbp> heh, the flick at 11:10
09:09:57 <sbp> lick heading
09:10:01 <sbp> s/lick/flick/
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09:18:10 <sbp> yay, sushi
09:19:09 <sbp> woah at the traffic thing
09:19:30 <xover> “And notice the dot-com button on the keyboard.”
09:19:34 <sbp> aye
09:23:22 <sbp> well that was awesome
09:31:55 <xover> Hmm. No mention of setting an mp3 as your ringtone on “The best iPod we've ever created,”.
09:32:22 <xover> You want to bet AT&T offers DRM'ed downloadable ringtones?
09:37:58 <sbp> heh, heh
09:38:34 <sbp> yeah, that was a little odd/telling
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09:42:41 <sbp> okay, I've had enough of Firefox
09:42:47 <sbp> it even hangs now when I bookmark stuff
09:42:58 <sbp> I'm fed up of saving files and seeing the beachball for like 10-20 seconds
09:43:08 <sbp> opening up another tab and seeing a beachball for 10-20 seconds
09:43:10 <sbp> it's crazy
09:43:47 <sbp> and when I close a window with more than like 20 tabs in it, the whole thing crashes
09:44:10 <sbp> what's it glued together with, Japanese soy-based imitation bubblegum?
09:47:22 * sbp switches to Camino for some unfathomable reason
09:50:57 <xover> Interesting: http://leninology.blogspot.com/2007/06/lenin-reloaded.html
09:54:06 <sbp> okay, annoying things about Camino:
09:54:09 <sbp> * undo close tab?
09:54:26 <sbp> * the tabs extras thing is a » menu item?! what?
09:54:43 <sbp> still, clicking on things and having the browser do them within a second or two is a novelty
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10:00:31 <sbp> * can't reorder tabs
10:00:52 <sbp> hahaha
10:01:02 <sbp> "# <del>Undo close tabs or re-open a closed window.</del> Out of Scope "
10:01:07 <sbp> - http://wiki.caminobrowser.org/Development:Summer_of_Code_2006
10:01:19 <sbp> "<del>Being a well designed browser.</del> Out of Scope"
10:04:32 <jewel> firefox works for me
10:06:34 <sbp> well it doesn't for me
10:06:55 <sbp> it's a considerable pain in the ass
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10:09:01 <Monty> Thank goodness, dmiles_afk is back!
10:09:04 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
10:09:07 <Monty> criticism admits responsibility for feudalism, apparently.
10:14:05 <sbp> hmm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Layout_engine_usage_share.svg
10:15:21 <deltab> sbp: do you have lots of files in the Download window in Firefox?
10:16:07 <xover> Or just files in the download window. And FF set to automatically open it on downloads?
10:20:32 <sbp> I don't have any files in the download window... I don't use it
10:20:39 <sbp> I have some extension that provides it in a bar
10:21:05 <xover> Might it perhaps be subject to the same limitations and performance issues as the native function?
10:21:39 <xover> Also, my impression is that any extension that privides a significant UI has performance issues; particularly if it has a list somewhere in there.
10:23:26 <sbp> possibly, but I think it's a memory issue because I get beachballed on practically every operation
10:23:49 <sbp> it's not just downloading stuff that's an egregiousity
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10:45:01 <xover> Gyroid, Quintrino, ++: http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/science/93d5/
10:49:21 <deltab> sbp: 23/06/2007 16:25-16:35 Shaun the Sheep: Saturday Night Shaun/The Kite
10:49:54 <sbp> deltab: thanks! BST, I presume
10:49:59 <sbp> .calc 4.5 * 60
10:50:01 <phenny> 4.5 * 60 = 270
10:50:06 <deltab> yes
10:50:07 <sbp> Monty: remind me in 270 minutes to watch Shaun
10:50:07 <Monty> sbp: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Sat Jun 23 16:19:47 BST 2007
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10:57:17 <Monty> Thank goodness, shawn__ is back!
10:57:19 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
10:57:20 <Monty> book sleeps with championship :P
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11:08:12 <sbp> someone should make the perl6 of RDF
11:15:45 <Arnia> mmm
11:15:52 <Arnia> Non-axiomatic, I'd hope :p
11:16:03 <Arnia> NARFD!
11:16:15 <Arnia> uh... NARDF
11:16:21 <Arnia> I still prefer LOAN though :p
11:18:14 <sbp> yo Arnia!
11:18:21 <Arnia> GAH... I hate people pronouncing 'multi' as /mVltaI/ rather than /mVltI:/
11:18:27 <sbp> yes, actually I was chatting to Dave Pawson again about confidence levels
11:18:41 <Arnia> Higher-order uncertainty, ftw!
11:19:04 * Arnia does the Schroedinger wave dance
11:19:16 <sbp> I was thinking I'd prefer a messy, scrappy, pile of underspecified crap to the current RDF. I should've said perl5, of course
11:19:26 <Arnia> Like a Mexican wave, but it can jump to the other side of the stadium
11:20:27 <Arnia> sbp: hm... no, you want it well-specified but without the universal absolute aspect of RDF semantics which means if you write shit, it screws up all reasoning
11:20:28 <sbp> chuckle
11:20:35 <Arnia> (all reasoning in RDF of course)
11:20:47 <sbp> how could one achieve that?
11:20:54 <sbp> and still be as simple as RDF
11:21:54 <Arnia> Stop trying to produce a single language for representing all knowledge for machines
11:22:51 <Arnia> I believe (although I haven't experimented on this yet) that you can use statistical NLP and IR techniques to extract a lot of NARS semantics knowledge from existing texts
11:22:57 <sbp> so have different languages for different tasks?
11:23:32 <Arnia> And if you do need to transmit a specific set of judgements, questions or goals; use a language like Narsese or LOAN
11:23:55 <Arnia> sbp: yes... the problem with 'one language to rule them all' is that no one can agree which one
11:24:10 <Arnia> (see programming language theory/wars)
11:24:37 <sbp> so the Semantic Web should concentrate more on interoperability and good data representation and publication strategies than trying to shoehorn the world's semantics into a single often unworkable format?
11:25:08 <thelsdj> I got it!
11:25:13 <thelsdj> I just realized the perfect format!
11:25:17 <thelsdj> SGML!
11:26:08 <xover> ...
11:26:45 <sbp> hehe
11:26:56 *** cre8radix_ is now known as cre8radix
11:26:58 <Arnia> sbp: no, a certain semantics would be good, and possibly an *example* syntax that reflects into that semantics. But the relationship between language and semantics should be far less tight than it is with RDF
11:27:11 <Arnia> (and the semantics shouldn't be bloody closed-world in disguise)
11:27:16 <sbp> what would the semantics be like?
11:27:21 <Arnia> UNA and CWA... GAH
11:27:30 <Arnia> (Global Anger and Hurt)
11:28:38 <Arnia> sbp: for a start it should admit uncertainty, because human conception is rarely strictly delineated and most concepts we're interested in representing are likewise uncertain
11:28:52 <Arnia> (note, I'm not saying 'fuzzy' because that is a particular sort of uncertain semantics)
11:29:51 <sbp> I see
11:29:55 <Arnia> sbp: secondly, it should admit change; both of knowledge and of the world. So it should allow merging of disparate sources with different trusts in a proportional way and it should also include temporal structuring
11:30:11 <sbp> DanC showed me this yesterday: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/urw3/
11:30:28 <sbp> ooh, yes
11:30:30 <Arnia> sbp: the temporal structuring should be separate to logical consequence as well
11:31:03 <Arnia> sbp: most things humans think with are structured, so the semantics should be capable of mereological reasoning
11:31:22 <Arnia> sbp: and ideally, we want learning so we should admit inductive and abductive reasoning too
11:32:23 <sbp> those first two things, confidence and time, are exactly what Dave and I have been talking about
11:32:58 <Arnia> sbp: in general, the semantics should not be Model-Theoretic in spite of that class's popularity
11:33:02 * sbp -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning
11:33:24 <Arnia> sbp: in fact, the only semantics I've found which meets all these requirements is that of Non-Axiomatic Reasoning
11:33:47 <Arnia> although I'm playing with quantum semantics as an alternative
11:36:14 <sbp> .g quantum-semantics
11:36:15 <phenny> sbp: http://thisquantumworld.com/wordpress/category/quantum-semantics/
11:37:13 <sbp> ... @ http://www.cogx.com/?si=urn:cogx:resource:qtmdaml
11:37:55 <xover> Aha! I'd always suspected all this Semantics stuff was Quantum.
11:38:12 <Arnia> sbp: viewing a knowledge base as a point in an infinite dimensioned space and inferences as operators upon that space
11:38:38 <sbp> hmm, that's a new concept to me
11:38:44 <sbp> what kind of features does it have?
11:39:40 <Arnia> sbp: the ability to explore the dynamics of reasoning, ability to deal with continuous-valued domains and complex-valued domains, etc
11:40:14 <Arnia> sbp: also, if the operator is time-dependent, you can describe change
11:40:47 <Arnia> sbp: and you can look at the thermodynamic and information-theoretic properties of such operators
11:41:18 <Arnia> (plus, it would link two disparate domains together in a way that might suggest new and unusual models)
11:43:57 <sbp> hmm, sounds cool
11:44:08 <sbp> sounds a bit like that information flow model of computing you showed me ages ago
11:44:24 <sbp> the two dimensional analogue field system thing
11:44:44 <Arnia> yes, the thought stemmed from there in fact :)
11:44:48 <sbp> aha!
11:48:46 <Arnia> I need to stop inventing things for a while... either that or get a research assistant to bully
11:49:58 <sbp> yeah, inventing things is really enticing
11:50:18 <sbp> I'm just about to write down a browser design sketch, for example
11:50:43 <Arnia> I still have a few UI sketches
11:50:53 <Arnia> (of my browser design)
11:51:04 <Arnia> Waiting until Leopard to write an implementation though
11:51:32 * Arnia kicks self-organising maps in the head
11:52:04 <Arnia> "Erotic Tourtelot Fanfic Writer"
11:52:06 <Arnia> oh my
12:09:51 <JibberJim> Hmm, is there any sort of offline svn thing that lets you store up commits until you're back online / the repository isn't down?
12:10:19 <xover> git
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12:11:03 <JibberJim> why am I git - that was a reasonable question !
12:11:15 <JibberJim> changing the repository isn't n option :(
12:11:45 <Arnia> Whee! iPhone does have a PDF reader but nothing to stop an ocean dropping down outside a minute ago
12:12:04 <Arnia> Ahem... I'm supposed to be going to the funfair in newcastle in twenty minutes time
12:12:14 <xover> .wik Git (software)
12:12:16 <phenny> "Git is a distributed revision control / software configuration management project created by Linus Torvalds to manage software development of the Linux kernel." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(software)
12:13:27 <sbp> ooh, funfair
12:13:56 <xover> .wik SVK
12:13:57 <phenny> "SVK (also written svk) is a decentralized version control system written in Perl, with a design comparable to BitKeeper and GNU arch." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVK
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12:14:07 <xover> .wik SVK/Features
12:14:08 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "SVK/Features".
12:14:14 <xover> .wik SVK:Features
12:14:17 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "SVK:Features".
12:14:24 <xover> .help wik
12:14:25 <Emeka> exceptions.ValueError: need more than 0 values to unpack
12:14:32 <sbp> dpawson!
12:14:41 <xover> phenny: help
12:14:43 <phenny> Hi, I'm phenny (a http://inamidst.com/phenny/)
12:14:46 <phenny> Commands: acronym, beats, charinfo, codepoint, compare, email, gimage, google, googlecalc, googlecount, googledef, httphead, kalusa, map, myersbriggs, podecoint, rate, rates, remind, representation, seen, swhackcount, swhackcount2007, swhackorigin, swhacktail, tavtime, thesaurus, time, translate, validate, wordlength2007, wordnet
12:14:50 <phenny> Try "phenny: help command?" if stuck. My owner is sbp.
12:15:08 <xover> phenny: help wik?
12:15:10 <phenny> Sorry, no documentation for wik.
12:15:15 <sbp> plain ".help" conflicts with various other bots, as you can see
12:15:37 <xover> phenny: tell sbp to fix docs for .wik.
12:15:39 <phenny> xover: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
12:15:47 <sbp> it wouldn't be very helpful documentation
12:15:49 <phenny> sbp: 12:15Z <xover> tell sbp to fix docs for .wik.
12:16:32 <xover> Anyways, JibberJim, SVK appears to be some kind of overlay on SVN, so may be suitable.
12:16:47 <sbp> phenny: reload wikipedia
12:16:50 <phenny> sbp: <module 'modules.wikipedia' from '/home/sbp/phenny/modules/wikipedia.py'> (version: 2007-06-23 12:16:20)
12:16:52 <sbp> phenny: help wikipedia
12:16:54 <phenny> '.wik <term> - Except information about <term> from Wikipedia.'
12:16:57 <sbp> there
12:17:50 * sbp continues to write up his browser rant
12:18:17 * Arnia wants to write clever iPhone/Dashboard widgets and AJAX applications
12:18:37 <Arnia> I think a reskinned TiddlyWiki would be handy
12:18:54 <Arnia> as would an AJAX interface to www.a1c.org.uk
12:19:16 <Arnia> (whenever it gets done)
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12:21:22 <xover> Wasn't there some kind of syntax for sub-sections?
12:22:47 <sbp> http://inamidst.com/whits/2007/06#browsers
12:23:12 <Arnia> sbp: did you see my conversation with Tene about a week and a bit ago?
12:23:44 <sbp> nope?
12:24:05 <Arnia> sbp: Idea; do away with tabs
12:24:23 <sbp> why, and what workflow in its stead?
12:24:32 <Arnia> sbp: what is the rational for tabs? Two main uses: division of attention and queuing of history
12:24:41 <Arnia> sbp: tabs are suboptimal for both
12:25:17 <Arnia> sbp: Core Animation provides a means to easily arrange and animate arbitrary NSViews and WebKit just provides an NSView subclass
12:26:02 <Arnia> sbp: so, rather than use tabs why not arrange the pages themselves in a graph visualised using a hyperbolic radial projection
12:26:04 <sbp> I wrote about the rationale in my piece
12:26:26 <sbp> yeah, I was thinking along those lines actually (though I didn't write about that)
12:26:28 <Arnia> sbp: you can then move backwards and forwards and sideways
12:27:05 <sbp> I'm currently considering the tension between the descriptive structure of the history (especially if it were more replete with information, as I write about), and the prescriptive structures of bookmarks and tab queues
12:27:14 <Arnia> sbp: you can also add parsers for certain common idioms to allow (for example) automatic opening of all pages of a structured document (like a latex2html doc)
12:27:44 <Arnia> sbp: bookmarks can be cached pages you can drop into the graph
12:27:45 <sbp> one difference between tabs and regular history that you're missing is that they cache not only a rendering but also form information
12:27:59 <sbp> and DOM changes
12:28:14 <Arnia> sort of like the 'page view' in Acrobat's thumbnails
12:28:22 <sbp> well... there's all the data and there's all the views...
12:28:27 <sbp> what I'm thinking about is:
12:28:36 <sbp> a) archiving more data than is currently archived
12:28:48 <Arnia> sbp: WebKit has a good engine though... can keep lots of pages active
12:28:53 <sbp> b) providing more flexible or potent ways of structuring your own data
12:29:04 <sbp> c) providing better views of all that data
12:29:06 <Arnia> Maybe allow the user to 'pin' certain pages so that they don't get timed-out of the render list
12:29:19 <Arnia> (all pages stay in the graph, just not all of them are rendered)
12:29:21 <sbp> can keep lots of pages active: without memory issues?
12:29:39 <Arnia> I generally have about 30 or 40 pages open without an issue
12:29:46 <sbp> setting a limit on rendering cache time is actually a nice way of thinking about it
12:29:55 <sbp> only 30 or 40? I have as many as 200 sometimes!
12:30:03 <sbp> and I'd like more
12:30:22 <Arnia> I can't cope with that mentally
12:30:38 <sbp> it's not the rendering caching that actually bothers me particularly... it's the ordering of the tabs and the visuality of the history; and the fact that I have some control over it
12:30:44 <Arnia> Anyway, I was working on some mockups. I could finish them when I get back to show you
12:30:53 <sbp> my history captures every single page that I browse to
12:31:08 <Arnia> I have some ideas for the visualisation
12:31:13 <sbp> my tabs are like the user pick of the history. it's a structure orthogonal to the history, a prescriptive structure more like bookmarks
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12:31:17 <Arnia> Have to go now
12:31:22 <sbp> enjoy the funfair!
12:32:58 * sbp adds a link to this chat to whits
12:54:37 <xover> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Jun/0008 — «WHATWG to start work on "Bible5"»
12:55:35 <sbp> here's another idea: when clicking a link to a tab which is already open, it simply merges that tab into the current one
12:55:47 <sbp> a link to a page which is already open in another tab, rather
12:56:14 <sbp> that might be annoying though if you did it because you want a new fresh DOM/form page
12:57:09 <sbp> xover: oh man. any idea where that's from?
12:58:32 <xover> Prolly a canary from Hixie before he actually does start work on Bible5.
12:59:05 <kpreid> JibberJim: SVK is what you want, i think
12:59:08 <sbp> chuckle
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13:02:13 <sbp> "in fact even as late as 1995 Bill Gates dismissed personal use of the World Wide Web as a passing fad" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser
13:06:26 <sbp> [[[
13:06:27 <sbp> h1 { font-size: 20pt; }
13:06:28 <sbp> is equivalent to the JSSS:
13:06:28 <sbp> document.tags.H1.fontSize = "20pt";
13:06:36 <sbp> ]]] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript_Style_Sheets
13:07:19 <crschmidt> they use the example of 'pt'?
13:08:11 <sbp> yep...
13:08:16 <sbp> http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/gecko.html <- funny
13:08:24 <sbp> way to come up with catchy names, Mozilla
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13:14:26 * sbp chuckles at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28WHATWG%29
13:15:51 <xover> .wik Special:Random
13:15:54 <phenny> "Category: Wikipedia specialpages discussion" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Special:Random
13:16:00 <xover> meh
13:19:34 <sbp> patches accepted omg
13:19:40 <sbp> wikipedia.py is one ass of a mess
13:19:51 <sbp> which is why I'm not all that happy about hacking on it when people grumble :-)
13:20:04 <sbp> I should just rewrite it from scratch
13:20:18 <xover> plus. the fucking thing is in python.
13:20:22 <sbp> interesting referer I got: [crschmidt naked 2]
13:20:34 <sbp> crschmidt I understand, and naked I understand. the 2 is intriguing
13:20:46 <crschmidt> not really
13:20:48 <xover> Now that's /got/ to be from a swhacker.
13:21:01 <crschmidt> xover: indeed it is
13:21:12 <xover> .g crschmidt naked 2
13:21:14 * crschmidt was attempting to determine if his naked pictures had gotten linked from anywhere
13:21:14 <phenny> xover: http://boston.openguides.org/?Naked_Fish_(Billerica)
13:21:19 <crschmidt> the answer is 'no'
13:21:21 <xover> heh heh
13:21:30 <crschmidt> but then i saw the swhackgc link -- and the google search result title was in arabic
13:21:34 <xover> .gc "crschmidt naked"
13:21:35 <sbp> aha, yes
13:21:37 <phenny> "crschmidt naked": 2
13:21:38 <crschmidt> and i was wondering how exactly that had ended up happening
13:21:44 <xover> .g "crschmidt naked"
13:21:46 <phenny> xover: http://swhack.com/logs/2004-09-24
13:21:49 * sbp just found that the IP address matches some of those that crschmidt swhacked from
13:22:00 <crschmidt> indeed
13:22:08 <crschmidt> 66.92.66.26 is my home IP at the moment
13:22:14 <crschmidt> I should have them change the hostname on that
13:22:20 <xover> Wow. Egosurfing is one thing, but Googling for Egopr0n is a bit too meta for me.
13:22:23 <crschmidt> it's still set to whatever the person before us had set it to
13:22:24 <sbp> ooh, you're right, it is in arabic
13:22:34 <sbp> it wasn't a while ago! it was using the link text of someone who linked to it
13:22:39 <sbp> and I complained about it on whits. that's interesting
13:22:44 <sbp> guess they changed the model of that
13:23:06 <sbp> yeah, "osiris.laportestyle.org"
13:23:14 <sbp> cording to http://inamidst.com/services/rdns/66.92.66.26
13:23:25 <crschmidt> right
13:23:58 <sbp> so why the "2"?
13:24:21 <sbp> that was the name of the original directory?
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13:25:29 <sbp> oh well. mystery over
13:25:30 <crschmidt> .head http://swhack.com/logs/latest
13:25:32 <phenny> Status: 404 (for more, try ".head uri header")
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13:25:42 <sbp> argh, right, I meant to fix that
13:26:17 <sbp> .head http://swhack.com/logs/latest
13:26:20 <phenny> Status: 307 (for more, try ".head uri header")
13:26:22 <sbp> yay
13:26:23 <xover> .gc "I meant to fix that"
13:26:25 <phenny> "I meant to fix that": 19,100
13:26:56 <sbp> im in yur servr fixn yur redirectz
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13:33:09 <xover> .compare "im in yur" "im in ur"
13:33:12 <phenny> "im in ur" (280,000), "im in yur" (559)
13:33:27 <sbp> ur is passé
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15:19:44 <sbp> TIA, Monty
15:19:46 <Monty> As we all know, apples is staggering ;)
15:20:14 <Monty> sbp: You asked me to remind you to watch Shaun
15:20:37 <bjoern_> Google threatens to close Google Mail Germany if we don't tighten privacy laws...
15:20:40 <sbp> deltab: Shaun in a moment
15:20:45 <sbp> erk
15:20:57 <sbp> Monty: remind me in 3 minutes to seriously go to the telly now
15:20:57 <Monty> sbp: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Sat Jun 23 16:23:38 BST 2007
15:24:14 <Monty> sbp: You asked me to remind you to seriously go to the telly now
15:24:22 <sbp> fine, fine
15:25:59 <sbp> deltab et al.: on now
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15:33:05 <sbp> yay
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18:48:43 <xover> [[[
18:48:43 <xover> The identity of the official whose alleged responsibility for this hypothetical
18:48:43 <xover> oversight has been the subject of recent discussion is not shrouded in quite
18:48:43 <xover> such impenetrable obscurity as certain previous disclosures may have led you
18:48:43 <xover> to assume, but, not to put too fine a point on it, the individual in question
18:48:44 <xover> is, it may surprise you to learn, one whom your present interlocutor is in the
18:48:46 <xover> habit of defining by means of the perpendicular pronoun.
18:48:48 <xover> ]]] — Sir Humphrey Appleby, “Yes Minister”
18:48:53 <xover> .gc "perpendicular pronoun"
18:48:55 <phenny> "perpendicular pronoun": 3,030
18:50:14 <xover> [[[
18:50:14 <xover> Prime Minister, I must protest in the strongest possible terms my profound
18:50:14 <xover> opposition to a newly instituted practice which imposes severe and intolerable
18:50:14 <xover> restrictions upon the ingress and egress of senior members of the hierarchy
18:50:14 <xover> and which will in all probability, should the current deplorable innovation be
18:50:15 <xover> perpetuated, precipitate a constriction of the channels of communication and
18:50:17 <xover> culminate in organisational atrophy and administrative paralysis which will
18:50:19 <xover> render impossible the coherent discharge of the function of government within
18:50:21 <xover> Her Majesty's United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
18:50:23 <xover> ]]] — Sir Humphrey Appleby, “Yes Minister”
18:50:47 <xover> Both from…
18:50:49 <xover> .wik Logorrhoea
18:50:51 <phenny> "Logorrhoea or logorrhea (Greek λογορροια, logorrhoia, “word-flux”) is defined as an “excessive flow of words” and, when used medically, refers to incoherent talkativeness that occurs in certain kinds of mental illness, such as mania." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logorrhoea
18:56:15 <sbp> aaaargh
18:56:28 <sbp> almost the entire second paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare%27s_sonnets is about the authorship debate!
18:56:36 <bjoern_> We could have a [censored] prefix which will replace text with suitable unicode characters...
18:56:36 <sbp> I've a good mind to just go in and hork it out
18:56:46 <sbp> only it'd be put back five minutes later
18:56:48 <sbp> that's disgraceful
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18:57:20 <sbp> far better would be to speak about the legitimacy debate
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18:59:20 <xover> Pare it down and link to the authorship page.
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19:01:27 <sbp> hmm, actually, I guess it's only two sentences, and one of them has been added recently
19:01:35 <sbp> it shows how quickly it can get out of control...
19:01:39 <sbp> might be best to nip it in the bud
19:02:15 <sbp> I think I'll attempt it
19:03:00 <Ash> OUT OF CONTROL
19:03:21 <xover> Most of the article seems to address the authorhip question and speculation rooted in the poet's possible dalliances.
19:06:16 <xover> 9 Pop Culture is essentially a trivia section and a fanboy dump.
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19:36:28 <Tene> xover: you see update to the crazy lawyer thing you linked last night?
19:36:50 <xover> Ah, no. There's a new development? Excellent!
19:37:13 <Tene> Yeah, in a rather unexpected way.
19:38:38 <xover> Well, not all that unexpected really.
19:39:36 <Tene> although, really, either way, he has no business continuing to claim to practice law.
19:40:16 <xover> Nor do most named partners of distinguished old law firms, I would imagine.
19:40:45 <Tene> huh.
19:42:54 <xover> When you get to the point where the lights are on but there's nobody home, but your name is engraved in bronze or your reputation carries a certain weight, it's not entirely uncommon to retire to a dark office somewhere you can cash your pen^Wsalary without doing substantial damage.
19:45:59 <sbp> hmm
19:46:21 <sbp> quite sad really
19:48:10 <sbp> xover: yeah, apart from punctuation which is basically flexible anyway, it's right
19:48:32 <xover> Ah.
19:49:04 <xover> Should probably try to find a fascimile of the original to put there instead.
19:49:57 <sbp> [[[
19:49:58 <sbp> Let me not to the marriage of true mindes
19:49:58 <sbp> Admit impediments, loue is not loue
19:49:58 <sbp> Which alters when it alteration findes,
19:49:58 <sbp> Or bends with the remouer to remoue.
19:49:58 <sbp> O no, it is an euer fixed marke
19:50:00 <sbp> That lookes on tempests and is neuer shaken;
19:50:02 <sbp> It is the star to euery wandring barke,
19:50:04 <sbp> Whose worths vnknowne, although his higth be taken.
19:50:06 <sbp> Lou's not Times foole, though rosie lips and cheeks
19:50:08 <sbp> Within his bending sickles compasse come,
19:50:10 <sbp> Loue alters not with his breefe houres and weekes,
19:50:12 <sbp> But beares it out euen to the edge of doome:
19:50:15 <sbp> If this be error and vpon me proued,
19:50:19 <sbp> I neuer writ, nor no man euer loued.
19:50:21 <sbp> ]]]
19:50:23 <sbp> long-s normalised to s, but u and v convention retained
19:50:25 <sbp> spaces added after commas etc.
19:50:29 * sbp transcribed it, to compare
19:51:00 <sbp> from h1r, http://ise.uvic.ca/Library/facsimile/book/UC_Q1_Son/53/?size=large&view_mode=normal&content_type= where it's numbered as "119". pfft
19:51:04 <xover> `twas the exclamation mark replacing the comma that mad me iffy about it.
19:51:28 <sbp> xover: yeah, but cf. Hand D of Sir Thomas More
19:51:39 <sbp> Shakespeare really didn't bother much with punctuation if that's any evidence
19:51:51 <sbp> he assumed it'd be filled in by the actor/publisher/reader, it appears
19:52:20 <sbp> so whilst I think I'd support reverting it to a comma...
19:52:31 <sbp> the exclamation mark doesn't bug me too much
19:53:27 <xover> Right. It was just what tickled my paranoia bone.
19:53:41 <sbp> ahh, gotcha
19:57:05 <perigrin> tis the speech of l33t we n33dst here
19:57:36 <sbp> omg rofl, rly? loelz
19:57:47 <sbp> wtf. oic. 'lo perigrin ahahaha rofflecopTAR
19:58:04 <xover> uhm. Who numbered the Sonnets? T.T.?
19:58:21 <perigrin> I iz in ur castle sleepin wit ur Momz -- Claudius
19:58:40 <sbp> xover: I'd guess the compositor
19:58:52 <xover> The ISE fascimilie seems to indicate it actually said '119'.
19:59:15 <xover> Misprint, possibly?
19:59:20 <sbp> [[[
19:59:22 <sbp> MacD. P. Jackson, following from the work of Alice Walker and Philip Williams, contends that the same two compositors who set Eld's Troilus and Cressida in the same year also set the 1609 quarto, with B being the principal compositor and A helping him "sporadically, setting somewhat less than a third of the Quarto" (6). Jackson maintains that four skeletonformes were used and supposes that "more than one press must have been used" (3). The different compositor a
19:59:22 <sbp> ssignments in this edition are based on a new analysis of the spellings typical of each compositor.
19:59:28 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.library.utoronto.ca/utel/ret/shakespeare/1609int1.html
19:59:36 <sbp> misprint: yeah, definitely
19:59:46 <sbp> you should leaf through the first folio one day... the page numbers are insane
19:59:58 <sbp> same story with the quartos. some of them are hideous with errors
20:00:16 <sbp> standard Elizabethan shittery. the dudes just didn't take care
20:00:49 <sbp> usually they corrected, giving press variants, whilst they printed the work
20:00:59 <sbp> but generally they only fixed a few things leaving rampant errors throughout
20:01:30 <xover> Oh. And a capital 'E' in the 'LEt'.
20:01:36 <sbp> ah! there's one press variant with 116 correctly numbered!
20:01:37 <sbp> "the number of sonnet 116, elsewhere appearing as 119, is correct in the BodleyCaldecott copy"
20:01:40 <xover> That's an interesting convention.
20:02:51 * perigrin wonders if LOLBARD.com would take the joke too far.
20:02:54 <sbp> oh, yeah. well it's still done now, though usually over a longer span
20:03:03 <sbp> I used to do it on my homepage, circa 2003 or so
20:04:42 <sbp> perigrin: yes, but do it anyway! regissster it!
20:05:31 <sbp> hmm, actually the list of misprints in the sonnets isn't too bad I suppose
20:06:45 <sbp> surprised that http://www.library.utoronto.ca/utel/ret/shakespeare/1609int1.html says nothing about the comma in 116.2... seems like it should be a full stop or semi-colon. 'tis a quite clear enjambment
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20:08:36 <xover> .compare proface prophane
20:08:38 <phenny> proface (93,700), prophane (49,100)
20:08:47 <xover> .g proface
20:08:49 <phenny> xover: http://www.pro-face.com/
20:08:53 * sbp looks up Honan's Hand D excerpt where Shakespeare misses out a question mark
20:08:59 <sbp> misses out even a pause
20:09:38 <sbp> "in doing this o desperat as you are" -> "In doing this? O desperate as you are,"
20:11:01 <xover> Context?
20:11:12 <sbp> .compare "in doing this o desperat as you are" "In doing this? O desperate as you are,"
20:11:15 <phenny> "In doing this? O desperate as you are," (4), "in doing this o desperat as you are" (0)
20:11:26 <sbp> Hand D of Sir Thomas More is the only handwriting sample of Shakespeare that we have aside his signatures
20:11:36 <sbp> it shows us how he actually wrote. he didn't use much punctuation
20:11:53 <sbp> in this case, "in doing this o desperat as you are" is what he actually wrote, and "In doing this? O desperate as you are," is how modern editions set it
20:12:26 <sbp> (and they're right, when you read the whole thing. I just couldn't be bothered to type it all out)
20:12:40 <sbp> in the whole quoted passage, in the original there's only a single comma
20:12:59 <sbp> if it's representative of what Shakespeare wrote, he really really didn't use punctuation much
20:13:17 <sbp> and he doesn't capitalise his lines etc. either...
20:13:22 <sbp> he'd be really, really at home on IRC!
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20:14:15 <sbp> I think, for the record, that he'd use the nickname Phaethon...
20:14:48 * sbp in other words is enticed by the early Florio sonnet theory
20:15:28 <sbp> heh, I sorta understand why Arnia goes off on contextless rants now. it's fun! :-)
20:16:15 <kpreid> I don't notice any contextlessness.
20:16:24 <kpreid> right now, I mean.
20:16:27 <xover> Stream of Consciousness, perhaps.
20:16:50 <sbp> the Florio sonnet is a bit oblique
20:21:15 <thelsdj> dracula vs king arthur...
20:22:14 <bjoern_> .g JellyPope & Scanner / Dope Imaginations
20:22:17 <phenny> bjoern_: http://dope.groundmotion.com/
20:23:47 <sbp> now that's stream of consciousness
20:25:07 <xover> Heh. Googling for "Hand D" and "Sir Thomas More" quickly brings me to... #swhack logs.
20:25:15 <sbp> hehe
20:25:19 <perigrin> .gc "profane tank"
20:25:22 <phenny> "profane tank": 31
20:30:03 <sbp> I'm off. 'night!
20:30:06 <xover> Oh ffs. Either my Google-fu is lousy, or finding a damn picture of this alleged handwriting sample is preposterously hard.
20:30:22 <bjoern_> you could give him a twitter account
20:30:25 <xover> `night sbp.
20:30:30 <sbp> xover: yeah, secretary handwriting is hard even for me still
20:30:39 <sbp> and I've been staring and the dang thing and many others like it for ages
20:30:39 <bjoern_> I take it there are many fake ones of vpis
20:30:42 <bjoern_> vips
20:30:44 <bjoern_> oh my
20:30:49 <sbp> there's a good palaeography lesson online
20:30:53 <sbp> but it's a lot of hard work
20:30:59 <sbp> anyway, really off now. 'night!
20:31:00 <bjoern_> NIGHT SBP
20:31:28 <bjoern_> Expat has a terrible api
20:31:53 <sbp> oh, I misread. heh, really need to get sleep but...
20:32:01 <sbp> yes, there are only a couple of low resolution photos of it
20:32:07 <sbp> this is one of the things I was mailing Wales about
20:32:16 <bjoern_> e.g. attribute names are reported as strings like "http://... localname prefix"
20:32:23 <sbp> but nothing came of that, so I was wondering about ways to get around it
20:32:42 <sbp> but what I said still holds; even if you had a decent image of it, it's not the easiest thing in the world to read...
20:32:43 <bjoern_> if you enable namespace processing with ns triplets. otherwise you have to implement much yourself
20:32:49 <xover> “Sodomized Earl of Southampton today. Also. Finished Sonnet 126. Good times.”
20:32:56 <sbp> makes you understand some of the compositors' errors. anyway, 'night...
20:33:27 <bjoern_> I wonder what happens if the namespace name has a space...
20:33:36 <bjoern_> since that's not allowed and not an error...
20:33:41 <xover> “I'm sure the bitch is cheating on me. With that treacherous little faggot Southampton no less.”
20:33:43 <bjoern_> weird as that may sound!
20:34:00 <xover> “Sonnet 146 coming along nicely.”
20:35:07 <bjoern_> allright you're qualified, you got the job xover!
20:35:14 <xover> heh heh
20:35:15 <bjoern_> please set it up asap
20:35:49 <thelsdj> "Was visited by fairies again, I told them they'll get their play when I'm good and ready."
20:36:18 <xover> “Must. Not. Twitter. While. High. Lesson learned.”
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20:45:54 <xover> Wll known blog service. Not Blogspot. Renowned for its concentration of teeny angst &c. Tip of my tounge…
20:46:34 <kpreid> Uh, LiveJournal?
20:46:44 <xover> ah, `atsa one. Thanks!
20:46:55 <xover> Was driving me nuts.
20:47:10 <kpreid> From where I sit I boggle at someone being unable to recall that...
20:47:30 <perigrin> MySpace?
20:47:32 <xover> All these services meld into one from here.
20:47:53 <perigrin> Actually they all meld into one at the source
20:48:05 <perigrin> LJ is owned by sixapart which also produces Vox, TypePad and MovableType
20:50:20 * perigrin needs to go visit the boy now
20:50:27 * perigrin waves and wanders off
20:53:51 <thelsdj> how long till google buys sixapart?
20:56:00 <bjoern_> Why not Yahoo!?
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21:36:51 <thelsdj> or maybe microsoft?
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22:02:52 <Monty> yo jetscreamer!
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22:24:20 <Arnia> phenny, tell sbp that I never go off on context-less rants; although the idea of a context-less statement is intriguing. Is such a thing possible? Depends upon which semantics we take I suppose.
22:24:22 <phenny> Arnia: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
22:24:44 <bpt> thelsdj: why would anyone want to buy SixApart?
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22:31:34 <kpreid> hi Arnia
22:37:47 <Arnia> hey kpreid
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22:43:00 * Arnia taps out a four-beat rhythm on the keyboard
22:50:36 <kpreid> with or without GarageBand?
22:51:15 <crschmidt> http://home.llondel.org/image.php?id=8011&stq=46 <- picture at the altar
22:53:22 <Arnia> kpreid: without... Saxon styleee
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23:07:23 * Arnia enjoyed the episode this evening
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23:26:14 <Monty> howdy, zool_
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23:56:44 <thelsdj> Beginning of Blackgas 2 Issue 2: "...motherfucking zombies do not drive motherfucking cars" later in said issue: "Zombies are driving fucking automobiles now, I quit this shit."
