00:22:57 <bjoern_> Hmm Kalaschnikow's 60th birthday...
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00:32:42 <Monty> bah, it's Lumi_ again
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03:48:40 <bjoern_> .cp ^0022
03:48:43 <phenny> 0022: QUOTATION MARK (")
03:49:26 <bjoern_> .cp ^003d
03:49:29 <phenny> 003D: EQUALS SIGN (=)
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04:16:54 <bjoern_> seems it's at least in part d) - there was a problem with my state removal implementation that made it generate longer expressions than necessary...
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04:20:19 <bjoern_> now it's going like [[[
04:20:22 <bjoern_> 96 (20,15,14,17,8,5,3,13,25,6,9,24,16,23,12,4,7,10,11,21,18,19,22)
04:20:22 <bjoern_> 92 (25,3,4,5,6,12,20,24,8,21,9,7,17,13,16,11,14,15,18,23,10,19,22)
04:20:22 <bjoern_> 89 (5,12,3,4,20,7,8,21,25,6,9,24,17,13,16,11,14,15,18,10,19,22,23)
04:20:22 <bjoern_> 87 (3,5,13,25,11,6,4,12,14,20,16,8,7,21,9,24,17,15,18,10,19,22,23)
04:20:22 <bjoern_> 85 (8,3,11,20,4,6,25,5,13,21,24,14,16,12,7,15,17,9,10,18,19,22,23)
04:20:22 <bjoern_> 83 (5,6,3,20,4,21,8,13,12,14,16,7,24,25,15,17,9,18,10,19,11,22,23)
04:20:24 <bjoern_> ]]]
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04:20:41 <bjoern_> still quite removed from the optimum somewhere around ~43
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06:23:54 <bjoern_> [[[
06:23:55 <bjoern_> """I believe it was Thomas Paine circa AD 1776 or so, who wrote: "In order that liberty be preserved, we must not allow oppression even unto our enemies, for in doing so we set a precedent that reaches back into ourselves.""""
06:23:55 <bjoern_> """Yes, but it is to be expected that most people won't understand that because after all, like Thomas Paine said: "Time makes more converts than reason".
06:23:55 <bjoern_> That's right, I countered your Thomas Paine quote with another Thomas Paine quote. I'm challenging you to a Thomas Paine quote-off! May the best Thomas Paine quoter win! I urgently await your reply."""
06:23:56 <bjoern_> ]]] -- http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/08/13/0218246.shtml
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06:42:44 <KragenSitaker> .swhack weather
06:42:48 <phenny> KragenSitaker: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-08-12#T12-36-10
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06:43:10 <KragenSitaker> .weather half moon bay
06:43:12 <phenny> HALF: no such ICAO code
06:47:28 * KragenSitaker goes to use a different weatherbot
06:48:01 <bjoern_> @wunder half moon bay
06:48:03 <supybot> bjoern_: The current temperature in Dennis, Half Moon Bay, California is 52.9°F (11:47 PM PDT on August 12, 2007). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 100%. Dew Point: 53.6°F. Pressure: 30.05 in 1017.5 hPa (Rising).
06:48:18 <KragenSitaker> oh nice
06:50:01 <bjoern_> .weather EDFM#
06:50:03 <phenny> EDFM at 8:20 (06:20Z): Clear ☼, 18℃, 1012mb, Light breeze 7km/h (4kt) (↑)
06:50:17 <bjoern_> Clear!?
06:50:20 <KragenSitaker> @wunder belmont, ca
06:50:26 <supybot> KragenSitaker: Error: TypeError: sequence item 0: expected string, NullType found
06:50:30 <KragenSitaker> are you at EDFM?
06:50:38 <KragenSitaker> @wunder belmont california
06:50:42 <supybot> KragenSitaker: Error: TypeError: sequence item 0: expected string, NullType found
06:50:47 <KragenSitaker> @wunder belmont, california
06:50:51 <supybot> KragenSitaker: Error: TypeError: sequence item 0: expected string, NullType found
06:50:55 * bjoern_ 'd try without the ,
06:50:58 <KragenSitaker> @wunder san mateo, california
06:51:02 <supybot> KragenSitaker: The current temperature in San Francisco, California is 59.0°F (10:56 PM PDT on August 12, 2007). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 69%. Dew Point: 48.2°F. Pressure: 30.05 in 1017 hPa (Rising).
06:51:02 <bjoern_> EDFM is very close indeed
06:52:17 <JibberJim> @wunder LHR
06:52:21 <supybot> JibberJim: The current temperature in London, United Kingdom is 55.4°F (7:20 AM BST on August 13, 2007). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 82%. Dew Point: 50.0°F. Pressure: 29.80 in 1009 hPa (Steady).
07:04:29 <KragenSitaker> @wunder half moon bay
07:04:34 <supybot> KragenSitaker: The current temperature in Dennis, Half Moon Bay, California is 52.9°F (12:03 AM PDT on August 13, 2007). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 100%. Dew Point: 53.6°F. Pressure: 30.05 in 1017.5 hPa (Steady).
07:05:12 <KragenSitaker> that's suspiciously similar to 15 minutes ago
07:05:49 <bjoern_> Have another look at the dates.
07:06:19 <KragenSitaker> The dates have changed, as has the indication about the pressure's direction.
07:06:43 <KragenSitaker> But the temperature has not changed by even 0.1 degree, nor the pressure by even 0.1 hPa.
07:07:21 <bjoern_> Why would it change?
07:08:25 <KragenSitaker> because it's nominally a measure of a physical quantity to about three significant figures?
07:08:53 <KragenSitaker> all three, that is
07:08:59 <KragenSitaker> dewpoint, temperature, and pressure
07:09:32 <KragenSitaker> they all change by something like 10 points in a few hours each day
07:10:09 <KragenSitaker> so if they haven't changed in 15 minutes, it seems more likely that we're seeing obsolete data reported than that the real quantities haven't changed at all
07:10:15 <KragenSitaker> @wunder half moon bay
07:10:19 <supybot> KragenSitaker: The current temperature in Dennis, Half Moon Bay, California is 52.7°F (12:09 AM PDT on August 13, 2007). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 100%. Dew Point: 53.6°F. Pressure: 30.05 in 1017.5 hPa (Steady).
07:10:47 <bjoern_> Does not go a long way to confirm your hypothesis...
07:12:07 <KragenSitaker> nope
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07:21:56 *** sbp changed the topic to: ""That's right, I countered your Thomas Paine quote with another Thomas Paine quote. I'm challenging you to a Thomas Paine quote-off! May the best Thomas Paine quoter win! I urgently await your reply.""
07:22:41 <bjoern_> 'o 'p!
07:22:52 <sbp> hello!
07:22:54 <phenny> sbp: 12 Aug 21:18Z <bjoern_> tell sbp hehehe
07:22:58 <sbp> I just invented a new number: lolity
07:23:10 <sbp> it's like nullity, only on the complex number plane
07:23:13 <sbp> even if that doesn't make sense
07:23:32 <sbp> s/complex/imaginary/
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07:23:37 * bjoern_ just read the List::Permutor::LOL perldoc...
07:23:48 <sbp> it permutes lots of laughs?
07:24:03 <bjoern_> Lots of Lists. Err, Lists of Lists.
07:24:18 <sbp> hmm
07:24:28 <sbp> that's not as interesting for my purposes
07:24:37 <sbp> as future Olympic rocketsled comedian!
07:25:16 <bjoern_> I know where you can go to for your logo...
07:26:44 <sbp> where?
07:27:18 <sbp> this is awesome: http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/corpus/search/document.php?documentid=803
07:27:19 <bjoern_> .g logo 2012
07:27:21 <phenny> bjoern_: http://www.logo2012.com/
07:27:55 <sbp> [[[
07:27:56 <sbp> F809 Is this really her helping sheep give birth?
07:27:56 <sbp> F810 Yes.
07:27:56 <sbp> F809 She's gonna be pulling //lambs out of sheep.//
07:27:56 <sbp> ]]]
07:28:18 <bjoern_> .cp ^f809
07:28:21 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for '^f809'.
07:28:48 <sbp> I should use http://www.logo2012.com/files/garland_logo.gif ?
07:30:03 <bjoern_> reminds me of Thirty Minutes over Tokyo
07:31:54 <sbp> wow: http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/08/12/2157215.shtml
07:32:00 <sbp> why's that
07:32:12 <sbp> +?
07:34:58 <sbp> wow, d8uv found out whether gay people get turned on by their own penises
07:35:07 <sbp> a question that really we've all wondered from time to time
07:35:15 <sbp> -> http://d8uv.org/flog/2007-08#t1186986055
07:35:40 <sbp> though he'd already intuited the answer using logic
07:35:57 <sbp> (which sounds like a contradiction in terms, but in this case...)
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08:20:21 <laplink> .weather ENTC
08:20:24 <phenny> ENTC at 9:50 (07:50Z): Clear ☼, 16℃, 1007mb, Light air 1m/s (2kt) (↻)
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08:35:25 <sbp> .weather EGLL
08:35:28 <phenny> EGLL at 9:20 (08:20Z): Clear ☼, 18℃, 1009mb, Moderate breeze 12kt (↑)
08:35:44 <bjoern_> So I think I've got it. When turning a DFA into a regular expression using state elimination, there is no guranteed optimal removal sequence such that the resulting regular expression is minimal in the number of character occurrences. Proof: Take the XML 1.0 STag production as example. There are three ways to get to the final state via '>', directly from the element name, from white space (after the name, after attributes), and fro
08:36:08 <sbp> cut off at "after attributes), and fr"
08:36:20 <bjoern_> No matter in which order the three states are removed, the ">" will be copied at least twice into the regular expression, while the optimal solution would include only a single '>'.
08:36:49 <bjoern_> ...om a closing ' or " character.
08:39:40 <bjoern_> Which sucks, because that makes my regular expression about twice as long as necessary (in this particular case), and getting there requires already quite some effort...
08:41:09 <bjoern_> In contrast, making them several megabytes long is very easy using state elimination...
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08:44:01 <bjoern_> So now I'd like to have an alternate algorithm that is at least able to generate shortest ones...
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08:54:17 <laplink> .weather ENTC
08:54:18 <phenny> ENTC at 10:20 (08:20Z): Clear ☼, 16℃, 1007mb, Light air 1m/s (2kt) (↻)
09:01:02 *** jewel_ is now known as jewel
09:02:13 <bjoern_> phenny, ping
09:02:15 <phenny> pong
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09:13:16 <Monty> howdy, idickinson
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09:24:50 <laplink> .weather ENTC
09:24:52 <phenny> ENTC at 10:50 (08:50Z): Clear ☼, 17℃, 1006mb, Light air 1m/s (2kt) (↻)
09:25:03 * Arnia ponders
09:25:23 * laplink runs away screaming…
09:25:49 * Arnia ponders laplink
09:25:57 <tobbez> too much humidity here :/
09:26:18 <tobbez> was above 95% this week
09:26:35 * laplink collapses beneath his own Swartzchild radius…
09:28:33 <tobbez> oh noes, a black hole *tries to run away*
09:29:21 <sbp> that's it for this episode of Swhack!
09:29:34 * laplink sucks tobbez in…
09:29:35 <sbp> tune in next week to find out whether or not tobbez was inside the inner event horizon or not
09:29:43 <sbp> OH THANKS FOR THE SPOILER
09:29:52 <sbp> bang goes our cliffhanger
09:30:01 <laplink> “And now some scenes from next weeks episode…”
09:30:10 <tobbez> "I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die!"
09:30:31 <sbp> spaghettification
09:31:43 * Arnia sprinkles tobbez with parmesan
09:32:04 <tobbez> :(
09:32:09 <laplink> Mmmm! Parmesan!
09:32:27 <tobbez> What if laplink's allergic to it?
09:32:40 <sbp> apparently he's not
09:32:58 <sbp> anyway, it doesn't matter if he gets diarrhea
09:33:02 * laplink wouldn't care, it's so good it's to die for…
09:33:12 <sbp> as long as the white hole is far, far away
09:33:39 <sbp> actually, that's a pretty good idea
09:33:41 <sbp> crapping into a black hole
09:33:50 <sbp> "And then, in a galaxy far, far away..."
09:33:51 <sbp> hehe
09:34:00 <Arnia> sbp: Have you ever performed the bolas with a black/white hole pair
09:34:07 <sbp> the bolas?
09:35:15 <Arnia> ebollas if you wish
09:35:27 * Arnia has just woken up from a rather fractured sleep
09:35:31 <Arnia> Apologies
09:35:58 * laplink glues Arnia back together with some really *really* solid coffee…
09:36:39 <laplink> .weather ENTC
09:36:44 <phenny> ENTC at 11:20 (09:20Z): Clear ☼, 17℃, 1006mb, Light air 1m/s (2kt) (↻)
09:37:21 <Arnia> laplink: I'd prefer some tea...
09:37:35 * Arnia makes himself some toast
09:41:29 <sbp> yay: [THE LATEST PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE] led 203.12.*.* to http://inamidst.com/pluvo/
09:42:20 * Arnia spreads marmite over sbp
09:42:33 <sbp> marmite, in the middle of our street
09:42:55 * laplink licks sbp all over…
09:43:06 <sbp> now now
09:43:19 <sbp> that's what animals are for
09:43:25 <laplink> Yes?
09:43:32 <sbp> http://www.disobey.com/node/1466
09:44:52 <laplink> heh heh
09:45:08 * laplink misses the Morbus Moments®…
09:45:39 <sbp> aye
09:49:57 * Arnia has too many toppings for toast
09:50:59 <Arnia> Marmite, vegemite, four sorts of jam, three sorts of honey, crunchy and smooth peanut butter and duck paté
09:51:23 <bjoern_> The latest I heard about was http://www.yoix.org
09:52:22 <sbp> freaky
09:56:29 <tobbez> Does anyone know of a good messenger app for mobile phones? (java)
09:56:59 <bjoern_> So I've been thinking about the DFA->Regex problem above. At least the STag case the problem is that the automaton is deterministic only if you go from the start to the final state. If you run it from the end to the beginning, you would first see a ">" and have many states to choose from where to go next (white space, ', ", element name).
09:58:05 <bjoern_> I could fix that by introducing new states with epsilon (matching the empty string) transitions; then, if these guard states are removed last, there would be a removal sequence that generates only a single ">" in the regex
09:59:35 <bjoern_> Indeed, there is a method to minimize DFAs that goes like (reverse, make deterministic, reverse again, make deterministic again)
09:59:43 <bjoern_> which is in some sense similar
10:00:56 <bjoern_> Problem is I would not know how to prove this simple change to the algorithm is sufficient to gurantee that there is an optimal removal sequence...
10:01:48 <Arnia> Proof by cases?
10:02:00 <bjoern_> oh it's det rev det rev actually
10:02:19 * bjoern_ thought proof by examples is not possible...
10:02:51 <Arnia> No, the standard way to prove a disjunction is to treat each of the disjuncts as a case
10:03:01 <Arnia> Prove from the case
10:03:56 <bjoern_> Ah, right, but, which cases are there?
10:04:02 <Arnia> So if you had A \/ B as a statement to prove you'd say 'if A then <proof from A> else if B then <proof from B>'
10:04:25 <Arnia> Your cases would be the different ways of achieving an optimal regex
10:04:58 <Arnia> You have to show that at least one of the methods will produce an optimal regex for any input DFA
10:05:14 <bjoern_> I don't know *any* way to achieve that, short of going from the shortest to the longest and checking whether the regex equals the language...
10:05:45 <bjoern_> above I proposed one method that *might* make that possible.
10:05:47 <Arnia> Ok, can you define what it means to be optimal?
10:06:00 <bjoern_> minimal in the number of character occurences
10:06:43 <bjoern_> (using only grouping, zeroOrMore, choice operations)
10:08:08 <bjoern_> (Indeed, I only know of a single well-documented method that turns a DFA into a regex, which by itself cannot do it, cf http://swhack.com/logs/2007-08-13#T08-35-44)
10:08:16 <Arnia> So your proof would probably work on induction over the state-graph and rely upon adding and subtracting characters
10:11:40 <bjoern_> What I would want to proof is: Given a minimal DFA, transform the DFA into an expression automaton with a single starting and a single final state plus the modification above, then there exists a removal sequence such that turning the automaton in a regular expression using State Elimination will yield a regular expression that is minimal in the number of character occurences.
10:14:18 <bjoern_> It seems more likely I would show that if there is no such removal sequence, that would contradict the automaton being in the form described above.
10:14:45 <Arnia> Try and avoid proof by contradiction
10:14:55 <Arnia> Especially if you have an essentially positive statement
10:14:58 <Arnia> (like above)
10:15:19 <Arnia> What you seem to have is an existence proof wrapped around an induction proof
10:15:40 <Arnia> You find an algorithm and prove it will always make an optimal reduction sequence
10:16:14 *** kwijibo (n=keith@62.172.77.66) has joined #swhack
10:17:37 <Arnia> To show that the algorithm is optimal, try and prove that every step is optimal (the so-called 'greedy property')
10:17:38 <bjoern_> that algorithm would be: for each removal sequence { if this is the optimal sequence: break } I'm afraid...
10:18:15 <Arnia> Imagine that you have some magic algorithm that *generates* removal sequences
10:18:25 <Arnia> Then, try and reverse engineer it :p
10:19:21 <bjoern_> Well the claim is that such an algorithm exists (or rather, that a specific algorithm is this algorithm),
10:19:46 <bjoern_> so it would not help to imagine that it is...
10:20:13 <Arnia> Ok. Do you have an algorithm for generating removal sequences?
10:24:18 *** est has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:26:40 <bjoern_> A removal sequence is simply an ordering of the numbers 3..n, where n is the number of states of the automaton.
10:27:19 <bjoern_> The problem is, is there an y such that f(x,y) = z.
10:27:37 <Arnia> yes, ok... an algorithm for generating a removal sequence guaranteeing your property
10:28:10 <Arnia> or rather, which you think generates sequences which guarantees your property
10:31:31 <bjoern_> there are only finitely many possible y, put differently, the question is, if I run f(x,y) for all possible y, is there one result that has my property.
10:32:11 <bjoern_> I don't know whether I have an algorithm that generates an y that has my property.
10:32:48 <Arnia> That's why you try and prove it
10:32:56 <Arnia> If you knew, you wouldn't be looking for a proof
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10:38:09 <bjoern_> That I can agree with......
10:55:25 <bjoern_> .calc 1 terabyte in bits
10:55:27 <phenny> 1 terabyte = 8.79609302e12 bits
10:55:49 <bjoern_> hey that's almost one bit for every dollar of U.S. federal debt...
11:02:09 <sbp> hehe
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11:14:47 <bjoern_> hmm I'd like better numbers on their federal debt. Under Bush the debt should have increased by around 3,333,333,333,333 USD by now, I'd like to know the exact time of hitting that...
11:15:17 <sbp> I wonder how accurately it's tracked?
11:16:31 <bjoern_> I remember Rumsfeld having me speechless when he announced 10 Sep 2001 that the DoD can't account for 2 point something trillion dollars...
11:16:43 <bjoern_> So, perhaps not that well methinks
11:17:29 <sbp> hehe
11:18:39 <sbp> Rumsfeld was such a laugh
11:19:31 <Talliesin> The firearm safety expert.
11:20:04 * bjoern_ thought Cheyney had more experience in that area...
11:20:35 * bjoern_ s/.../Cheney/
11:25:42 <bjoern_> '''It is an unusual characteristic of Germany that everyone suffers from angst (fair enough, they invented the word)'''
11:25:54 <laplink> .wik angst
11:25:57 <phenny> "Angst is the German word for fear or anxiety." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angst
11:26:06 <bjoern_> See!
11:26:17 <Talliesin> Ah yes, it whas cheney with the firearms.
11:26:47 <Talliesin> But hey, he responded to the avian 'flu risk - he went off to shoot birds - and he shot a lawyer in the face. Can't not respect that.
11:28:16 <laplink> Well, anyone that shoots a lawyer in the face can't be all bad I suppose.
11:28:42 <laplink> Then again, he did claim it was an accident.
11:29:07 <bjoern_> You don't expect them to do something good on purpose.
11:29:10 <laplink> .weather ENTC
11:29:18 <Talliesin> Instinct, accident, it can be hard to draw the line.
11:29:18 <phenny> ENTC at 13:20 (11:20Z): Clear ☼, 19℃, 1006mb, Gentle breeze 4m/s (7kt) (↑)
11:29:32 <bjoern_> .weather EDFM
11:29:33 <phenny> EDFM at 13:20 (11:20Z): Scattered, 24℃, 1014mb, Light breeze 9km/h (5kt) (↑)
11:30:18 <bjoern_> clear cold gentle vs scattered warm light breeze, hmm
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11:55:49 <laplink> .weather ENTC
11:55:52 <phenny> ENTC at 13:50 (11:50Z): Clear ☼, 19℃, 1006mb, Gentle breeze 5m/s (10kt) (↑)
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13:15:42 <Jabberwock> who rang?
13:15:44 <phenny> Jabberwock: 11 Aug 16:38Z <sbp> tell Jabberwock that Google outed him. http://rails.loglibrary.com/archives/2006/10/17
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13:42:45 <sbp> Karl Rove hath much resignèd
13:44:49 <Arnia> Hm
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14:34:33 <Monty> welcome, bpt
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16:18:20 <Jabberwock> I don't get it.
16:18:26 <Jabberwock> google outed me?
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16:32:33 <laplink> @title http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/009263.html
16:32:35 <supybot> laplink: Making Light: Bookstore chain puts the screws on small publishers
16:32:54 <sbp> Jabberwock: see http://swhack.com/logs/2007-08-11#T16-35-02
16:33:08 <laplink> @title http://www.linkedin.com/pub/2/268/48A
16:33:10 <supybot> laplink: LinkedIn: Charlie Rimmer
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18:24:53 <Monty> hi littledan
18:27:19 <sbp> .compare blogfield fudgebunk whappersnipper
18:27:22 <phenny> blogfield (11,100), whappersnipper (8), fudgebunk (0)
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18:57:54 <Monty> hi bpt
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20:20:47 <sbp> wow, Stanley Wells posted to SHAKSPER
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21:53:08 <Monty> hey laplink
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22:36:15 <Monty> bah, it's Talliesin again
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