2007-09-11 Swhack IRC Log

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00:23:17 <bancus> !test
00:23:18 <swhask> Maybe you meant: let list tell
00:23:28 <bancus> *test
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00:35:45 <bjoern_> !let list tell
00:35:46 <swhask> Parse error
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00:48:39 <bancus> You know.
00:48:50 <bancus> I'm not sure if Growl's new positioning system was a good idea.
00:49:08 <bancus> it used to be when something fucked up and I got flooded with errors, it'd just take up the right edge of the screen
00:49:29 <bancus> I just had several hundred Upload Failed messages from Cyberduck take over my screen for a few minutes
00:50:07 <bjoern_> Arnia?
00:53:12 <deltab> bancus: that sounds like a bug in Growl — surely it shouldn't be showing several hundred messages at once
00:53:22 <bancus> well, it shows about 80 at once
00:53:29 <bancus> but once they time out, the next show up
00:54:25 <deltab> why so many? were you uploading several hundred files?
00:54:37 <bancus> several thousand, actually
00:54:46 <bancus> I managed to kill cyberduck early enough.
00:54:57 <bancus> 4558 to be exact
00:55:18 <bancus> For some reason, I cannot upload more than 1GB to this server no matter how I do it.
00:55:27 <bancus> It gets to 1GB then the connection shuts off.
00:55:36 <bancus> I wonder if I configured something like that.
00:57:36 <deltab> upload how? http?
00:58:03 <bancus> sftp and whatever mac's My Network finder thing is
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01:06:19 <Arnia> bjoern_: ?
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01:35:34 <Arnia> Question: which syntax do you prefer? http://www.xulplanet.com/ndeakin/arts/rpath-fns.txt or http://rx4rdf.liminalzone.org/RxPathSpec
01:39:01 <bjoern_> the former lacks examples, the latter seems too similar to xpath
01:40:03 <bjoern_> Well identical apparently; in that case that *might* be preferable
01:40:47 <bjoern_> I the the .txts use of % terrible
01:41:09 <Arnia> What's the problem with it?
01:41:33 <Arnia> The problem I have with RxPath is that it implements what amounts to striping.
01:41:55 <Arnia> I consider striping to be one of the nastiest things in RDF/XML so a striped path language makes me shudder
01:43:03 <Arnia> but it isn't about what I like, it is about what others will find useful
01:43:04 <bjoern_> Well % is mod or %hash or LIKE "%foo%", not at all access-by-index as it seems to be used.
01:43:30 <Arnia> There was another language I've seen which uses it for 'index'
01:43:35 <Arnia> Can't remember which though
01:43:48 <bjoern_> Well you were asking about the syntax, maybe you should ask about the method/idiom of access...
01:45:16 <Arnia> Well, the idea of path languages is that they're generally used for stepping through a graph. This makes them particularly useful for UIs, etc as well as computations. I want to support several path syntaxes but there doesn't seem to be any consensus on them
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01:47:19 <Arnia> and I do need to pick one to implement first :)
01:47:24 * Arnia shrugs
01:47:29 <redmonk> hiyo
01:47:38 <Arnia> Maybe I'll write the SPARQL engine first
01:53:27 <redmonk> sigh. i love new gadgets, but new platforms are a pain
01:55:39 <Arnia> hm?
02:07:52 <redmonk> playing with my "new" nokia 770
02:07:58 <redmonk> linux-based tablet thingy
02:08:00 <redmonk> kinda cool
02:08:18 <jsled> ah, cool. Got Hacker Edition on it?
02:08:23 <jsled> Found the thumb keyboard?
02:08:24 <redmonk> but when installing software you run into the same stuff you do on linux: this depends on version x.y.z of lib a
02:08:33 <redmonk> found the thunb keyboard, no hacker edition yet
02:09:13 <redmonk> trying to install a todo app on it, but i get the "require dependencies are missing" error
02:09:28 <jsled> installing how?
02:10:21 <redmonk> click the download link on this page: http://tech.inhelsinki.nl/2007-02-25/
02:10:26 <redmonk> open in application manager
02:11:20 <jsled> Ah... I wonder if it's in one of the repositories.
02:11:47 <jsled> I found that if you use the repositories in the app manager, the deps were handled (yum-style), but if you just install the .deb, it's basically the same as doing apt-get on the command-line.
02:12:19 <jsled> But I don't know debian, so maybe $(apt-get --please-to-be-gettink-all-dependencies-for-me-kthxbye $package) works or something.
02:12:44 <redmonk> hm. should check a repo, for sure. need to find a good list of repos
02:12:47 <redmonk> what do you use?
02:14:17 * redmonk downloads TWIT using gpodder
02:14:26 <jsled> http://maemo.org/community/wiki/applicationrepositories/
02:14:44 <jsled> though I haven't kept up with 770/maemo-ville for a while, now.
02:15:03 <bancus> I'm not aware that that work's actually.
02:15:11 <bancus> Something needs to be in an apt repo for apt to be able to install it.
02:15:18 <bancus> and dpkg doesn't handle dependencies automatically.
02:15:28 <bancus> It's kind of a blind spot in Debian's architecture.
02:15:30 <bancus> ack
02:15:37 <bancus> s/work's/works/
02:16:42 <redmonk> hm. soooo... are you saying that there's no way to get the dependencies on this thing
02:17:22 * Tene mentions yum's localinstall command.
02:18:27 * redmonk is in serious new territory and has never used a debian-based distro before
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02:31:58 <bancus> redmonk: Well, you could make your own apt repo.
02:32:05 <bancus> Unless debian has fixed this problem since the last time I tried.
02:32:16 <bancus> You could also get the list of dependencies yourself and do it that way.
02:32:26 <redmonk> fun
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02:35:08 <bancus> You can try with dpkg -i package.deb
02:35:16 <bancus> if you don't have the dependencies, it'll tell you at least
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03:33:31 <jsled> lol. http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/09/jobs-offers-apple-lisa-early-adopters-store-credit.html
03:50:48 <bjoern_> .title http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=117&art_id=nw20070910230313376C536016
03:50:53 <phenny> bjoern_: IOL: Heavy cellphone use 'can slow human brain'
03:51:34 <bjoern_> .title http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-politics10sep10,1,7735909.story?coll=la-headlines-nation
03:51:37 <phenny> bjoern_: Sign Up
03:51:53 <bjoern_> NO
03:51:55 <bjoern_> .title http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/09/study-pits-libe.html
03:51:58 <phenny> bjoern_: Study pits liberal brains against conservative brains ... who's more flexible? - On Deadline - USATODAY.com
03:53:11 <bjoern_> """David Amodio, of New York University, writing in the journal Nature Neuroscience, says conservatives were found to be "more structured and persistent in their judgments"; in tests they had "higher average scores" on measures of the personal need for "order, structure and closure". Liberals showed "higher tolerance of ambiguity and complexity"."""
03:53:19 <bjoern_> good we have these scientists.
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05:05:15 <chimezie> .ety agent
05:05:17 <phenny> "1471, 'one who acts,' from L. agentem (nom. agens, gen. agentis), prp. of agere 'to set in motion, drive, lead, conduct' (see act)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=agent
05:19:23 * Arnia boings
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05:31:04 <thelsdj> Arnia: sure you shouldn't have bonged?
05:31:25 <bjoern_> How can you ever be certain?
05:36:56 <Arnia> Boinging is better than bonging
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08:01:55 <sbp> okay, Sue Armstrong you are the person of the day. possibly person of the year for that matter
08:01:57 <phenny> sbp: 10 Sep 23:05Z <Morbus> tell sbp sure youv'e seen http://dannyayers.com/2007/09/10/firefox-browsing-history
08:02:01 <phenny> sbp: 10 Sep 23:27Z <thelsdj> tell sbp about http://flyingmeat.com/acorn/
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08:05:26 <deltab> "Miguel [de Icaza] loves the song "Spider Pig" from the Simpsons Movie and is often heard and seen singing the song around the Novell/Ximian office. [citation needed]" — Wikipedia
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08:42:38 <perigrin> Who doesn't love that song?
08:48:48 <jewel> .ety jewel
08:48:51 <phenny> "c.1290, 'article of value used for adornment,' Anglo-Fr. juel, O.Fr. juel, jouel 'ornament, jewel' (12c.), perhaps from M.L. jocale, from L. jocus 'pastime, sport,' in V.L. 'that which causes joy' (see joke)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=jewel
08:51:17 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988521.stm
08:51:21 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | UK | EU gives up on 'metric Britain'
08:52:28 <sbp> d'oh!
08:52:30 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6988616.stm
08:52:33 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | Scotland | Edinburgh, East and Fife | National library building flooded
08:52:41 <sbp> "Scotland's largest library has been flooded after the sprinkler system broke down."
08:53:14 <perigrin> er ... shouldn't that be "a" gutenberge bible?
08:53:42 <perigrin> .wik Gutenberg Bible
08:53:44 <phenny> "The Gutenberg Bible (also known as the 42-line Bible or the Mazarin Bible) is a printed version of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible that was printed by Johannes Gutenberg, in Mainz, Germany in the fifteenth century." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutenberg_Bible
08:54:31 <perigrin> right ... "As of 2007, there are 48 extant Gutenberg 42-line Bibles known to exist. "
08:55:52 <sbp> I think what they mean is "including [a copy of] the Gutenberg..."
08:56:35 <sbp> phenny: tell thelsdj yep, thanks! Morbus had shown me acorn earlier
08:56:37 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when thelsdj is around.
08:56:52 <sbp> phenny: tell Morbus yep, thanks! thelsdj had shown me danja's piece earlier
08:56:54 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when morbus is around.
08:57:10 <sbp> phenny: tell Morbus (just kidding; thanks!)
08:57:13 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when morbus is around.
08:57:30 <perigrin> according to wikipedia the NLS had ... an Edition (?) ... of the 42 line bible printed by Gutenberg
08:57:50 <sbp> yep?
08:58:20 <perigrin> I never realized it otherwise I would have tromped the family in to see it while we were there.
08:58:28 <sbp> they should've done a Simpsons Movie around season 6 or so
08:59:02 <perigrin> I made them see the Lindisfarne one of the times we were in London ... actually *every* time we went to the British Library.
08:59:11 <sbp> hehe
08:59:21 <sbp> what about Magna Carta and all the other stuff?
08:59:39 <sbp> (no "the" there!)
08:59:54 <sbp> (but not because there are multiple copies)
09:00:06 <perigrin> Nah ... I did a paper once on Illuminated gospels ... and my wife is an artist
09:00:13 <sbp> I see
09:00:35 <perigrin> If we had been in Dublin more than a few hours I would have tromped them over to see the Book of Kells too :)
09:01:32 <thelsdj> .wik book of kells
09:01:34 <phenny> thelsdj: 08:48Z <sbp> tell thelsdj yep, thanks! Morbus had shown me acorn earlier
09:01:34 <phenny> "The Book of Kells (Dublin, Trinity College Library, MS A. I. (58), less widely known as the Book of Columba) is an ornately illustrated manuscript, produced by Celtic monks around AD 800 in the style known as Insular art." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_kells
09:01:52 <thelsdj> .wik Insular art
09:01:55 <phenny> "Insular art, also known as the Hiberno-Saxon style, is the style of art produced in the post-Roman history of the British Isles, and the term is also used in relation to the script used at the time." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_art
09:02:14 <perigrin> I blame the American ex-pat community honestly. Filled me with horribly romantic notions of Celtic history and artistry.
09:02:15 <sbp> perigrin: so why the lavishness of the ornamentation?
09:02:58 <perigrin> sbp, honestly I think it's cause the monks were bored ... not a lot to do in the 800s ... the tele sucked.
09:03:30 <sbp> there was self-flagellation, no?
09:03:40 <sbp> a lot of walls to repair, too
09:04:01 <sbp> if I were a head monk, I'd be all "okay, did you fix that wall yet?"
09:04:20 <sbp> I wouldn't make a very good head monk, probably
09:04:30 <perigrin> "no but we did figure out a neat way to add a Lion's head to the gospel of Matthew"
09:04:43 <sbp> "right. time for flagellation"
09:05:00 <perigrin> "No no no ... Eoin come show him the eagle your working on for Mark!"
09:05:10 <perigrin> (or was that peter? Hrm)
09:05:18 <sbp> "wait, I heard that! you said your, not you're!"
09:05:46 <perigrin> "Bloody hell. Right flagellation it is."
09:05:50 <sbp> hehe
09:06:10 <perigrin> Monty Python and the Illuminated Manuscripts
09:06:43 <sbp> silly guh-nos-tic
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09:18:09 <thelsdj> I'm happy to hear that 'Dick in a box' won the Emmy
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09:24:37 <perigrin> I'm sure Mrs. Timberlake was proud.
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09:30:13 <thelsdj> A moment of silence for the dirt shrew...
09:31:48 <darobin> .title http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/top/experiments/
09:31:51 <phenny> darobin: The Top 20 Most Bizarre Experiments of All Time
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09:37:50 <thelsdj> Where to find an elephant I can experiment on...
09:41:41 <perigrin> thelsdj, Stoner Country Safari?
09:48:38 <sbp> hmm, big focus on evil in that twenty
09:48:55 <sbp> .wik Dick in a Box
09:48:58 <phenny> "'Dick in a Box' (also known as 'A Special Box'[1]| and 'A Special Christmas Box'[2]|) is an Emmy-winning Saturday Night Live digital short featuring Justin Timberlake and Andy Samberg that aired on December 16, 2006." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_in_a_Box
09:49:27 <thelsdj> have you not seen dick in a box?
09:49:31 <sbp> nopers
09:49:58 <thelsdj> http://youtube.com/watch?v=1dmVU08zVpA
09:50:11 <sbp> ta. will add it to the stack
09:50:17 <sbp> so much going on this morning!
09:51:35 <sbp> .gc "Ballad of Time"
09:51:38 <phenny> "Ballad of Time": 1,060,000
09:52:13 <thelsdj> the World of Warcraft episode of South Park also won an Emmy
09:57:04 <thelsdj> oh god, Mary Kate Olsen is going to be on Weeds
09:57:16 <perigrin> .cp Snowman
09:57:18 <phenny> 2603: SNOWMAN (☃)
09:57:37 *** sbp changed the topic to: "☃"
10:01:27 <thelsdj> now how can we make a Calvin snowman scene out of that?
10:03:52 <thelsdj> .cp gun
10:03:54 <thelsdj> .cp sword
10:03:54 <phenny> 12006: CUNEIFORM SIGN A TIMES LAGAR GUNU
10:03:57 <phenny> 2694: CROSSED SWORDS (⚔)
10:03:57 <phenny> 1200C: CUNEIFORM SIGN AB TIMES DUN3 GUNU
10:04:00 <phenny> 100C9: LINEAR B IDEOGRAM B233 SWORD
10:04:00 <phenny> 12010: CUNEIFORM SIGN AB TIMES IGI GUNU [...]
10:07:21 <perigrin> hmm ... I wonder why my phenny's cp doesn't work
10:13:57 <sbp> you need UnicodeData.txt in your data/ folder
10:14:05 <sbp> .g UnicodeData.txt
10:14:08 <phenny> sbp: http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
10:14:46 <sbp> perhaps I should make it fall back to using the unicodedata module if that's not present
10:25:18 <thelsdj> FLARPL!
10:32:59 <sbp> family law attorney's real property lien?
10:35:10 <thelsdj> Yes!
10:35:13 <thelsdj> FLARPL!
10:35:14 <thelsdj> heh
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10:41:03 <sbp> .acronym FLARPL
10:41:07 <phenny> FAL LUSTIHOOD ATTRIBUTE R-MASTEREST PROSPER LED
10:41:41 <sbp> I miss Monty
10:41:46 <sbp> .seen Monty
10:41:49 <phenny> sbp: I last saw monty at 2007-09-01 05:26:19 UTC on #swhack
10:41:59 <sbp> it's been a long time
10:42:01 <thelsdj> monty isn't here?!?!
10:42:03 <thelsdj> oh my!
10:42:04 <sbp> nope
10:42:12 <thelsdj> :(
10:43:10 <sbp> I'll email Paul
10:43:36 <thelsdj> .acronym FUBAR
10:43:39 <phenny> FRIEND UNQUIETLY BE APPERIL REMOVING
10:43:58 <thelsdj> .acronym FIGMO
10:44:01 <phenny> FOREIGN IMPASTED GAGNE MISLEAD OPPOSE
10:44:16 <thelsdj> figmo is one of my favorites
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10:44:53 <sbp> alright, sent
10:45:00 <thelsdj> figmo/omgif to be specific, the pair
10:45:49 <sbp> chuckle. hadn't heard that one before
10:46:31 <thelsdj> i can't even remember all the military acronyms like that my dad told me about
10:46:46 <thelsdj> fubar/snafu/figmo/omgif and i'm sure theres lots of others
10:46:55 <sbp> FIGMO BBQ FLARPL LOL!
10:47:27 <thelsdj> TARFUN is a new one
10:47:46 <sbp> Monty is gone! TARFUN!
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10:51:07 <thelsdj> .title http://www.strangecosmos.com/content/item/101484.html
10:51:10 <phenny> thelsdj: Military Acronyms
10:53:21 <sbp> Monty!
10:53:24 <Monty> Is it not possible to smack lettuce!
10:53:26 <phenny> Monty: 10 Sep 03:24Z <Mike_L> tell Monty that I hope he's having a nice vacation in the Alps, with twe.
10:53:27 <sbp> hehe
10:53:30 <Monty> "'small arctic rodent,' 1607, from gigue 'shank,' also have Newton
10:53:36 <thelsdj> twe!
10:53:41 <sbp> man, I've missed this
10:53:45 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<Monty> Is it not possible to smack lettuce!"
10:53:47 <thelsdj> hey Monty!
10:53:51 <Monty> 1. in acres perches and paste options in reserve for C code to present?
10:55:31 <thelsdj> Monty: arctic rodent? what about the dirt shrew!?
10:55:31 <Monty> hmmmm
10:55:46 <thelsdj> hmmm
10:55:57 <thelsdj> Monty: deep question eh?
10:56:13 <Monty> Oh ffs! Microsoft sabotaged the ends of course, auto completion kicking in real time I've forgotten how I didn't play with an obscure website that that works for one doesn't often don't think she would do .gif which ones are difficult to his best one bothered by sgt pepper cover of his real world service
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11:09:00 <perigrin> smacking the lettuce sounds kind of dirty
11:09:09 * dahut gets busy tenderizing his Joey
11:16:02 <sbp> bizzay
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12:03:45 <sbp> phenny!
12:03:48 <phenny> sbp!
12:04:01 <perigrin> Dr. Scott!
12:10:53 <Arnia> Brad!
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12:31:36 <Morbus> Janet?
12:32:43 <jsled> Dr. Scott!
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12:39:05 <Arnia> ROCKY!
13:01:25 <sbp> Dr. Finley!
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13:16:19 <sbp> KPREID WILL NOT READ THIS
13:18:07 <ows> is there some easy way to automatically create a list of acronyms from a txt document?
13:18:58 <sbp> a list of acronyms?
13:19:14 <sbp> like in a text saying "OMG, that's hilarious!" it'd get "OMG"?
13:19:27 <sbp> what if the acronyms are lowercase, like "lol"?
13:20:37 <ows> it doesn't matter
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13:20:46 <ows> I'm only looking for upper case acronyms :)
13:20:57 <ows> like SBP :)
13:24:41 <sbp> [[[
13:24:43 <sbp> # [21:55:49] <factoryjoe> what is swhack?
13:24:48 <sbp> # [21:56:04] <danja> nother channel - philosophers and madmen
13:24:56 <sbp> ]]] - http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2006-01-23
13:25:10 <sbp> ows: try egrep -o '[A-Z]{2,}'
13:25:19 *** sbp changed the topic to: "Philosophers and Madmen"
13:28:24 <sbp> for example:
13:28:25 <sbp> $ echo "OMG, that's hilarious\!" | egrep -o '[A-Z]{2,}'
13:28:25 <sbp> OMG
13:30:51 <cori[s]> isn't /topic redundant?
13:31:29 <sbp> well, it helps newcomers a little
13:31:37 <sbp> they don't have to wait five seconds to find out for themselves
13:32:02 <Arnia> The topic is never the topic... I think there is a beauty to that
13:32:21 <sbp> though it's always more closely allied to the topic than most other channels
13:32:35 <sbp> which just use it as a kind of "BORING DATA GOES HERE" sinkhole of irritatingness
13:32:46 <Arnia> In the sense that is a random and non-sensical (usually)?
13:32:47 <cori[s]> I meant "aren't philosophers and madmen the same thing"- I just wasn't clear
13:32:53 <sbp> heh, right
13:32:55 <cori[s]> clarity ++
13:33:05 <sbp> oh. yeah, and lovers
13:33:08 <sbp> of imagination all compact
13:33:17 *** Arnia changed the topic to: "Philosophers, madmen and the occasional lover (of Monty)"
13:33:29 <sbp> we luvs us the Monty
13:33:31 <Monty> found the prefs
13:33:40 <sbp> <3
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13:41:18 <Monty> hi cori[s]
13:44:42 <cori[s]> yo, monty
13:44:44 <Monty> shaver is AmigaOS and pharmaceutical.
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14:04:06 <darobin> what, no Oxford comma in the /topic?
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14:07:23 <procto> oh wow, another morning
14:07:40 *** cre8radix (n=cre8radi@p54BCD6F7.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #swhack
14:08:27 <Arnia> It is the afternoon
14:08:37 <Arnia> mid- to late afternoon in fact
14:08:40 * Arnia boings
14:15:25 <Arnia> sbp: you've started a demorking craze
14:16:53 <sbp> Arnia: who else is demorking?
14:17:18 <Arnia> Leo Sauermann now
14:17:32 <Arnia> After danja's post on the subject on his blog after the chat here...
14:17:43 *** xover has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:17:45 * Arnia demorkates Monty
14:17:45 <Monty> Other: 30% of OS
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14:18:06 <sbp> ooh, I see it
14:18:10 <sbp> thanks!
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14:22:16 <Arnia> "Other GPS devices may get you where you need to go... but the Nokia N800 will also tell you how to cook a lobster"
14:22:27 <Arnia> Strange strange advertising ploy...
14:24:20 <sbp> might work though
14:24:37 <sbp> some people are in emergency lobster cooking situations
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14:31:53 <Arnia> indeed... emergency trifle making situations are more common though
14:32:02 <Arnia> (whenever there is a birthday party, for example)
14:33:15 <sbp> hmm...
14:33:16 <sbp> $ time ./demork.py history.txt
14:33:16 <sbp> unknown file format: history.txt (I only deal with Mork, sorry)
14:33:20 <sbp> oh, I meant .dat. heh
14:35:34 * Arnia makes a trifle for his friends
14:35:48 <Arnia> I have four friends with their birthdays today... lots of trifle is needed
14:36:03 <sbp> make a quadfle
14:36:22 <sbp> $ time ./demork.py history.dat > history.xml
14:36:22 <sbp> real 3.548s
14:36:22 <sbp> user 0.232s
14:36:22 <sbp> sys 0.243s
14:36:22 <sbp> cpu 13%
14:36:31 <sbp> "THIS IS A LITTLE WEIRD", you might be saying
14:36:41 <sbp> $ cat history.xml
14:36:41 <sbp> <?xml version="1.0" standalone="yes"?>
14:36:41 <sbp> <!DOCTYPE history [
14:36:41 <sbp> <!ELEMENT history ANY>
14:36:41 <sbp> <!ELEMENT entry ANY>
14:36:42 <sbp> ]>
14:36:44 <sbp> <history>
14:36:48 <sbp> </history>
14:36:50 <sbp> you would be right
14:41:18 <Arnia> OH NO!
14:42:27 <Arnia> hum... damn protegé
14:42:46 * Arnia is trying to make a schema for serialising NAL
14:43:41 <procto> Arnia: I never tried asking my n800 for lobster cooking instructions, but it has told me about how good that indian restaurant I was contemplating going into was (it said it wasn't)
14:43:56 <sbp> danja's script doesn't work either!
14:43:57 <sbp> [[[
14:43:57 <sbp> $ ./mork2rdf.py history.dat
14:43:57 <sbp> <?xml version="1.0"?>
14:43:57 <sbp> <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"
14:43:57 <sbp> xmlns:foaf="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/"
14:43:59 <sbp> xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
14:44:01 <sbp> xmlns:rss="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/"
14:44:03 <sbp> xmlns:history="http://purl.org/stuff/history/">
14:44:05 <sbp> ]]]
14:44:15 <Arnia> sbp: Thou hast a borked mork!
14:44:15 <sbp> procto: was it right?
14:44:22 <sbp> hehe, I guess I do
14:44:30 <sbp> but jwz's script worked just fine
14:44:37 <sbp> even if it took literally hours
14:44:49 <procto> sbp: I did not go in, but later inquiry amongst acquaintances whose opinions on indian cuisine I trust confirmed the assessment
14:45:07 <sbp> splendid
14:45:08 <Arnia> Haven't had indian for a couple of months...
14:45:25 <procto> my current n800 project: some sort of mobile triple store gui-like thinger
14:45:40 <Arnia> And although I had Chinese last week, there is an incentive to going there
14:46:02 <Arnia> (one of the waiters practically sat in my lap... which is rare and offputting, but also a nice ego boost)
14:46:05 <procto> I presume that Indian in the UK is more likely to be decent than here around Boston
14:46:26 <sbp> Arnia: maybe he just wanted a tip
14:46:30 <sbp> AHAHAHA DO YOU GET IT
14:46:32 <sbp> ...
14:46:38 <Arnia> ...
14:46:41 <sbp> hehe
14:46:44 * Arnia throws the Book at sbp
14:46:53 * sbp accepts ye impact
14:47:40 <procto> I always found the impact of a book to be mildly erotic
14:48:02 <sbp> not sure one could say that about this book
14:48:04 <Arnia> sbp: hey, he was quite a nice looking lad too... even if the friend I was eating with couldn't stop giggling all evening afterwards
14:48:10 <sbp> heh, heh
14:48:16 <Arnia> procto: just don't read it...
14:48:26 <procto> Arnia: the Book?
14:48:30 <Arnia> Indeed
14:48:55 <Arnia> ooh, War of the Worlds
14:49:14 * sbp wonders how much mork-consumption debugging the mork scripts would require
14:49:28 * Arnia calls Fran to see if she wants to come to the chinese again
14:49:47 <Arnia> sbp: mork is quite strong. About 70% abv
14:50:03 <sbp> War of the Worlds: not on TV, it appears. where's that?
14:50:08 <Arnia> But it is flavoured like tango
14:50:15 <sbp> mmm... tango
14:50:15 <Arnia> sbp: oh, it just came up on iTunes
14:50:18 <sbp> aha
14:51:12 <procto> mork is the mozilla history format?
14:51:29 <Arnia> .g mork jwz
14:51:31 <phenny> Arnia: http://www.jwz.org/hacks/mork.pl
14:51:34 <Arnia> ^^^
14:52:17 <procto> ah
14:52:24 <procto> yurz
14:52:51 <sbp> soon to be replaced in Firefox 3.0 anyway
14:52:53 <sbp> but still
14:53:04 <procto> with what?
14:53:22 <sbp> a thing called Places. which is basically some sqlite backed deeley
14:53:41 <Arnia> hm...
14:53:44 <procto> oh
14:53:52 * Arnia curses applications
14:53:59 <Arnia> BAD APPS, ABBA!
14:55:08 * Arnia blinks
14:55:40 *** cre8radix is now known as cre8radix|off
14:58:19 * sbp looks at http://wiki.mozilla.org/Places
14:58:55 <Arnia> Can we attack relational databases with Monty and a polished spork?
14:58:56 <Monty> device
14:59:40 <jsled> <http://wiki.mozilla.org/Places:User_Interface/I6> ... Tag: [kittens] [funny] [lol]
15:00:38 <sbp> hmm: http://wiki.mozilla.org/Places:User_Interface/I6
15:00:40 <sbp> oh. heh
15:00:56 <sbp> we must've taken the same path
15:02:59 * sbp wonders what M8 is in http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/granParadisoUI/placesOrganizer_i5WindowLayout.png - Mozilla 8? I thought the Mozilla suite was gone now?
15:03:40 <jsled> The early mozilla builds were M1 .. M16 where M was milestone.
15:03:55 <jsled> Could be the same.
15:04:03 * jsled doesn't follow mozilla development
15:04:10 <sbp> ah, thanks
15:04:14 <sbp> ha! see the bottom of http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20070510-PlacesUI/i2Search.png
15:07:39 <sbp> "The password manager in Firefox 3 will now ask the user if they would like it to remember the password after the log on attempt. By doing this the user isn't storing a bad log on attempt in the password manager." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Firefox#Version_3.0
15:08:51 <sbp> aha, http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3/Schedule
15:09:10 <sbp> M8 is meant to be coming out RSN
15:09:33 <sbp> looks like they wanna release 3.0 in about November
15:13:32 <Arnia> hm
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15:15:45 <sbp> the Alpha that I installed was balls
15:15:56 <sbp> but I think it might've been a3 or something, quite a while ago
15:16:00 <sbp> yo bjoern_
15:16:24 * sbp gets a7, for a larf
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15:22:35 <bjoern_> .title http://www.reuters.com/article/internetNews/idUSL1055133420070910
15:22:38 <phenny> bjoern_: Web search for bomb recipes should be blocked: EU | Technology | Internet | Reuters
15:22:41 <bjoern_> 'p!
15:24:06 <sbp> a7 is still underwhelming
15:25:10 * bjoern_ looks at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A7 - so many ways to misunderstand that...
15:25:24 <sbp> Gran Paradiso
15:26:15 <sbp> what we need is the universality of Firefox, the speed of Camino, and the icon of Shiira
15:26:57 <Arnia> and the badger of Corinth
15:27:50 <bjoern_> ""Maybe you shouldn't get too attached to those new Windows Live services. On Tuesday, the USPTO granted Microsoft a patent for privacy policy change notification, which describes how to threaten users with the loss of their accounts and access to web sites and services should they refuse to consent to changes in a privacy policy. " - /.
15:28:35 <sbp> hmm: http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/01/13/basing-the-design-of-history-on-the-users-memory/
15:28:42 <sbp> Faaborg is pretty cool
15:28:50 <sbp> I like this post, but then the design doesn't seem to go far enough
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15:30:54 <Arnia> sbp: reminds me of my idea
15:31:06 <procto> sbp: that design looks roughly like opera's bookmarks
15:31:08 <Arnia> Remember my 'abolish the tabs!' idea
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15:31:42 <procto> sorry, I meant history
15:33:06 <sbp> yeah. I didn't quite get Abolish the Tabs
15:33:11 <sbp> care to run through it again?
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15:37:31 <Arnia> well, the main reasons people seem to use tabs are to either fix points in their browsing or to parallelise their browsing
15:38:02 <jsled> "fix points"?
15:38:26 <sbp> same question
15:38:26 <Arnia> jsled: "Oh I want to continue reading this, but temporarily move onto this page"
15:38:30 <jsled> like ... push a point onto a stack?
15:38:31 <jsled> yeah.
15:38:32 <jsled> okay
15:38:34 <sbp> ah, yeah
15:39:52 <Arnia> The idea is to represent your browsing history as a graph, where each node is a URI. The visual representation would be as a hyperbolic graph rendering where each node is an actual live rendering of the page
15:40:26 <sbp> oh, so not exactly getting rid of tabs. just making a better representation
15:40:28 <Arnia> you can tag nodes to easily find them again
15:40:36 <sbp> did you see...
15:40:45 <Arnia> sbp: well, if every page you open would be considered a tab, then yes
15:40:52 <Arnia> But this is your whole history
15:41:22 <sbp> rats, can't find it
15:41:34 <sbp> there was an experimental browser for OS X which *almost* did this
15:41:39 <sbp> well, not almost even, but first step
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15:42:21 <Monty> hi xover
15:42:24 <bpt> sbp: it wasn't Shiira, was it?
15:43:42 <sbp> nope, definitely not
15:44:21 <darobin> I'm not into cars, but some of those are really great, esp the Pacer and Gremlin: http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/08/0824_uglycars/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5
15:45:27 <sbp> oh great, Gran Paradiso just nuked my history
15:45:35 <sbp> SLAYAGE
15:46:26 <bjoern_> Well good it wasn't your future!
15:46:38 <jsled> <http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/08/0824_uglycars/source/8.htm> (Pontiac Aztek) ... I know this car is traditionally ugly, though I don't find it so. But it does have the worst driver visibility of any car I've ever driven. I almost got into like 3 accidents while renting it for just one week.
15:47:46 *** jetscreamer has quit ()
15:47:48 <Arnia> bjoern_: well, if he doesn't have any history he doesn't exist surely?
15:48:00 * Arnia watches sbp fade away Back to the Future style-e
15:48:22 * sbp has recovered it, hopefully
15:48:42 <sbp> moral of the story: don't trust apps with data
15:48:55 <Arnia> I don't trust data with data...
15:48:59 <sbp> (whence, of course, demorking)
15:50:24 <sbp> okay, that worked. but I still can't find it
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15:50:53 <Arnia> { :me nal:inherits foaf:Person } :believed [ :frequency 1; :confidence 0.9; ] .
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15:54:04 <sbp> ah!
15:54:06 <sbp> Arnia: http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/macwarriors/projects/trailblazer/
15:54:39 * sbp watches http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/macwarriors/projects/trailblazer/TrailBlazer.mov
15:55:43 *** cre8radix|off is now known as cre8radix
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15:57:44 <sbp> apart from the really low-techness-but-trying-to-be-professional-ness of the voiceover, fairly entertaining
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15:59:30 <Arnia> { :sbp nal:inherits wn:Cool } nal:believed [ nal:minFrequency 0.99; nal:maxFrequency 0.99999; ] .
16:00:12 <sbp> five nines coolness
16:00:33 * sbp tries out TrailBlazer
16:04:22 <sbp> heh. it's superbly unusable
16:04:32 <sbp> which is to say, imagine an axis on which it could be unusable
16:04:34 <sbp> and it is
16:04:39 <sbp> but as a proof-of-concept, not too bad
16:05:51 <sbp> (some example problems, in case you thought I was kidding: medium size Wikipedia pages take on the order of like a 20 second beachball spin before they work; there's no tabbed browsing; the renderer is extremely buggy, displaying Wikipedia article titles as regular text for example...)
16:06:44 <sbp> and the "instant" Lucene backed search is very slow. even though there's only like ten pages in my history so far
16:06:58 <sbp> it's almost as bad as Spotlight. that's how bad it is
16:07:17 <Arnia> apparently the new Spotlight is actually fairly snapping
16:07:21 <Arnia> snappY
16:07:44 <sbp> yeah
16:09:27 <Arnia> which is a relief
16:09:54 <sbp> indeed
16:10:00 <Arnia> I have thousands and thousands of PDFs alone... Spotlight was painful
16:10:15 <Arnia> But it was, at least, faster than Beagle at the time I switched
16:10:28 <sbp> wabout Google Desktop?
16:10:33 <sbp> is there an OS X version of that, even?
16:12:03 <sbp> great, it nuked my saved passwords too
16:12:06 <sbp> THANKS A LOT GRAN PARADISO
16:12:31 <sbp> bloody hell
16:12:35 <Arnia> Monty: ATTACK!
16:12:36 <Monty> (45 *
16:12:43 <jsled> )
16:12:50 <Arnia> 45 stars would be enough to level a planet...
16:13:24 <sbp> man, it seems to have literally just gone in and deleted random values
16:13:54 <Arnia> That's... fucked
16:14:12 <bjoern_> Monty !!!
16:14:14 <Monty> or /part #channel or perhaps
16:14:29 <bjoern_> indeed such as Monty.
16:14:30 <Monty> yay, crayfish!
16:15:25 <Arnia> ugh, crayfish!
16:15:43 <sbp> sigh. I hate passwords
16:16:01 * Arnia tempts sbp over to the capability side
16:16:22 <sbp> how would it work for web accounts?
16:17:36 <Arnia> Well, you'd have to hold your keys on a flash drive or something
16:18:02 <sbp> can I revoke 'em if I lose 'em?
16:18:04 <Arnia> The 'key' would be a web link which contained a query parameter containing the swiss number of the capability
16:18:18 <Arnia> sbp: yeah, should be able to figure something like that out
16:18:23 * Arnia shrugs
16:18:33 <Arnia> Sorry, I'm a bit distracted with PhD stuff atm
16:18:34 <sbp> problem would be needing auth for the revocation
16:18:37 <sbp> no problem
16:18:49 <Arnia> ahem
16:19:27 <kpreid> Monty's back!
16:19:29 <Monty> neat glitch: "... went kaput
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16:37:06 <Arnia> What do people think of an RDF representation like: { :bottishtelco nal:inherits [ a nal:PropSet; rdf:member :Incompetent; ] } nal:believed [ nal:frequency 1; nal:confidence 1; ]
16:37:13 <Arnia> (for non-axiomatic statements)
16:41:06 <sbp> what does frequency mean? amount of beliefs of it?
16:44:37 <Arnia> yes, and confidence is the uncertainty one has over that belief
16:44:59 <sbp> does it mean anything for one person to believe something twice?
16:45:14 <Talliesin> Fanatics!
16:45:17 <sbp> what does it mean for a document to say that something is belived twice?
16:45:20 <sbp> hehe
16:45:32 <Arnia> It means they have two judgements
16:45:48 <Arnia> If there is no evidence overlap, they can be merged using the revision rule
16:46:06 <Arnia> Otherwise, they stand as two separate beliefs (think of it as being equivocal)
16:47:19 <Arnia> (I've elided the evidence list from these judgements; a missing evidence list should be filled in by a processor based upon where the judgement came from)
16:48:42 <Arnia> A judgement (the object of a :believed) can be marked with a dc:creator to indicate who said such and such
16:49:10 <sbp> okay
16:49:30 <sbp> so if there's a nal:frequency 1 in a document, it doesn't mean that the 1 believer is necessarily the author of the document, the person asserting that triple?
16:49:56 <Arnia> With this format I've tried to keep it so that it is relatively easy to write in N3... I still think a more 'appropriate' serialisation would be useful (hence my threat to dajobe)
16:50:02 <Arnia> sbp: yep
16:50:42 <Arnia> sbp: the idea is to make the meaning embodied (that is, relevant to the particular agent) rather than stating something true of all time
16:50:58 <Arnia> It eases sharing of these documents over the web
16:51:08 <Arnia> You can combine evidence from lots of sources
16:51:44 <Arnia> Note, the predicate in the context block doesn't have to be one of nal:inherits, nal:similar, nal:implies or nal:equivalent
16:52:06 <Arnia> If it is another property, then it should be interpreted using the relational semantics of NAL-4
16:52:33 <Arnia> (this makes it easier to add non-axiomatic semantics to existing documents)
16:53:17 <Arnia> Also, a nal:Statement is a superclass of an rdf:Statement and an rdf:Statement is given the semantics of having a nal:believed block with a nal:frequence of 1
16:53:30 <sbp> why nal:inherits, rather than just going :bottishtelco a :Incompetent?
16:54:05 <Arnia> sbp: NAL has a different type-token distinction
16:54:22 <Arnia> (because it has both extensional and intensional semantics)
16:55:08 <Arnia> rdf:type and rdfs:subClassOf are both sub-properties of nal:inherits
16:55:41 <Arnia> With this set up normal RDF statements are automatically treated as boolean true NAL judgements
16:56:18 <sbp> I see
16:56:46 <sbp> and nal:PropSet is a superclass or subclass of rdf:List?
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16:57:15 <Arnia> Neither, alas
16:57:54 <Arnia> There are two sorts of set in NAL; intensional sets which are bundles of properties (PropSet) and extensional sets which are bundles of instances (InstanceSet)
16:58:20 <sbp> oh, rdfs:member's domain isn't rdf:List. nevermind
16:58:52 <Arnia> x rdf:type y can be considered as being equivalent to [ a nal:InstanceSet; rdfs:member x] nal:inherits y
16:59:38 <sbp> so why did you use PropSet in the example above?
16:59:55 <Arnia> But that actually depends upon whether you consider URIs are proper names or not
16:59:56 <sbp> (I suppose I am basically asking the difference between intension and extension)
17:00:32 <Arnia> sbp: The intension of a term is its properties, the extension its instances
17:01:01 <Arnia> sbp: an intensional set gives an 'upper bound' on inheritance, a extensional set a lower bound
17:02:01 <Arnia> In other words, if S inherits from an intensional set P and that set inherits from Q then P and Q must be similar to some degree
17:02:37 * sbp stares Homerlike, probably needs to read up on this
17:03:15 <Arnia> An intensional set is something which can never be reduced into smaller intensions
17:03:30 <Arnia> An extensional set is something which can never be reduced into smaller extensions
17:04:21 <Arnia> So to say, for example, that {true,false} --> boolean
17:04:43 * sbp finds "Intension is generally discussed with regard to extension (or denotation). Intension refers to the set of all possible things a word or phrase could describe, extension to the set of all actual things the word describes." on Wikipedia, which helps to reinforce a bit what you're saying
17:05:01 <Arnia> The set of booleans can never be reduced into a smaller set than true and false without losing the property of being the set of booleans
17:05:26 *** danja_ (n=danja@host155-221-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
17:05:26 <Monty> But what does danja_ have to do with the price of fish?
17:05:28 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
17:05:35 <sbp> m'kay, it's sinking in now
17:05:42 <Monty> potters don't trust apps are the base *mu-, perhaps imitative of jumps, even with PircBot under his boss has their forums clue what they're currently working on id-mtg-1 i luv this one control flow statements are difficult to eight! It'll blow my memory leaks as well... give you?
17:05:43 <Arnia> In S --> P, S is the extension of P and P is the intension of S
17:06:34 <sbp> okay, so I understand why rdf:type is extension
17:06:48 <sbp> but I don't understand why you used intension for bottishtelco
17:07:35 <Arnia> Well, what I'm essentially saying is that you can't divide the property of being incompetent down into smaller bits
17:07:52 <sbp> an atomic class, in a sense?
17:08:20 <Arnia> i.e. incompetence is a 'highest' level in the inheritance hierarchy containing bottishtelco
17:08:38 <Arnia> sbp: yes, sort of... although you can wrap lots of stuff in an intensional set
17:09:01 <Arnia> It is best to think of it as the dual of extensional sets
17:09:07 <Arnia> (at least to start with)
17:09:26 * sbp wanders off for dinner for a bit, still thinking about it
17:12:40 <Arnia> speak to you in a bit
17:21:24 * Arnia discovers the vitamin string quartet
17:25:01 *** qopi (n=chatzill@87-194-62-177.bethere.co.uk) has joined #swhack
17:33:49 *** darobin has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
17:40:37 <sbp> EATED
17:41:19 <Arnia> STUFFED
17:42:35 <jsled> heh. Forgot to remove the test exception before deploying to staging... [[[
17:42:38 <jsled> daq-2007-09-11 10:29:30,481:ERROR:SquidCheck:util: exceptions.Exception:SHITRUDE> at
17:42:38 <jsled> ]]]
17:42:48 <sbp> heh!
17:43:10 <sbp> j'approve
17:43:49 <sbp> .ety scurry
17:43:52 <phenny> "1810, perhaps from hurry-scurry (1732), a reduplication of hurry." - http://etymonline.com/?term=scurry
17:44:18 <Arnia> sbp: so have you cogitated?
17:44:29 <sbp> digested and cogitated
17:44:37 <sbp> I still don't think I quite get it
17:44:59 <sbp> but I don't get which bit of it I don't get
17:45:10 <Arnia> Ok... let us look at extensional sets
17:45:34 <Arnia> Before I said that {true,false} --> boolean fixes the extension of boolean
17:45:47 <sbp> right
17:46:03 <sbp> all the actual instances of boolean
17:46:34 <Arnia> Let us think about what that means... well, for a start, it means that we want it so that {true,false} can't be inherited by anything lower
17:46:51 <Arnia> If it could, then boolean's extension is no longer fixed at the level of {true,false}
17:47:15 <sbp> ah. so it's not like regular subclassing where subclassing doesn't change the superclass
17:47:18 <sbp> it's more like a limit
17:47:28 <sbp> and if you move the limit down, then the limit has changed
17:47:29 <Arnia> Exactly
17:47:44 <Arnia> Now, for every statement about extensions in NAL, there is a dual statement about intensions
17:48:16 <Arnia> So an intensional set is the upper limit on inheritance in much the same way as an extensional set is a lower limit
17:48:57 <sbp> so the intension can't be the inheritance of anything else
17:49:10 <Arnia> Yep
17:49:36 <Arnia> An intensional set is a sort of 'primitive attribute'
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17:50:41 <Arnia> Does it make sense like that?
17:50:44 <sbp> can the extension be the same as the intension?
17:51:10 <Arnia> yes... it can. that's what similarity statements do
17:51:24 <sbp> yeah, getting there. the concept itself seems to be sinking or sunken in, it's just the application of it that I'm struggling with at the moment. in other words, where I would use intension and extension in a model
17:51:49 <Arnia> In fact, that is the only sort of statement you can make on extensional or intensional set... a similairty
17:52:17 <sbp> got an example of a similarity statement and its extension/intension?
17:52:36 <Arnia> Ok... chihuahuas are similar to dachshunds
17:52:53 <sbp> 1) both dogs
17:52:59 <sbp> 2) both difficult to spell
17:53:42 <Arnia> What this means is that the extension of chihuahuas and dachshunds may overlap (cross-bred dogs etc) and the intension may overlap (both are dogs, both are small animals, both are kept as pets)
17:54:24 <Arnia> By contrast, an inheritance statement says that there is an overlap between intension or extension (depending on which way round you look at it) but only one is being considered at this time
17:56:00 <Arnia> Which one is actually irrelevant because of the duality between extension and intension
17:56:06 <sbp> duality?
17:56:58 <Arnia> S --> P (S inherits P) means that P is the intension of S and S is the extension of P
17:57:19 <Arnia> So by flipping things around, you can turn any statement about an intension into one about an extension and vice versa
17:57:23 <Arnia> Hence, they're dual concepts
17:57:39 <sbp> hmm
17:57:59 <sbp> so in P --> Q --> R, R is the intension of P, and P the extension of R?
17:58:07 <Arnia> Yep
17:58:53 <sbp> so an extension is the most granular type information about an instance... and intension the most broad
17:58:59 <sbp> I think that's fucking me up a bit
17:59:08 <sbp> because surely in RDF the intension of everything is rdfs:Resource?
17:59:38 <sbp> because every class --> ... --> rdfs:Resource eventually
18:00:02 <qopi> hiya Monty
18:00:06 <Monty> depends, which contained a 3-tier solution i've been ransacking lists of Zombiedom!
18:01:29 <sbp> or, wait. I suppose this is why you use the nal:* properties
18:01:44 <Arnia> sbp: indeed
18:01:59 <sbp> so that's why I have problems thinking about intensions, at any rate
18:02:10 <Arnia> But the 'limits' are only defined if you state an extensional or intensional set
18:02:16 <sbp> aha
18:02:46 <Arnia> Model theoretic semantics doesn't work with intensions; every intensional definition is 'computed' into a set
18:02:55 <sbp> so because RDF is non-(ex|in)tensional, it's not fair to say that rdfs:Resource is the intension of everything in RDF
18:03:22 <Arnia> And all sets in model theoretic semantics are extensional
18:03:32 <sbp> oho
18:03:40 <sbp> okay
18:03:48 <sbp> think I'm getting there now
18:03:49 <Arnia> Well, in your previous example of P --> Q --> R then Q is also part of the intension of P (as well as R)
18:04:06 <sbp> wait, in what?
18:04:30 *** alienbrain has quit ("Leaving")
18:04:46 <Arnia> Intension is everything that a term inherits from, the extension is everything which inherits the term
18:04:52 <Arnia> It doesn't have to be the limits
18:05:01 <sbp> hmm
18:05:03 <Arnia> (because these inheritances aren't necessarily complete)
18:05:16 <sbp> so it's more of a directional thing?
18:05:22 <Arnia> Yeah
18:06:10 <Arnia> A penguin is a bird, but it doesn't inherit all the properties (all the intension) of bird
18:06:16 <sbp> though I guess generally it's just easier to say "R is the intension..." than "R is part of the intension" just to hedge your bets about there being R --> S somewhere
18:06:34 <Arnia> (a penguin can't fly for example)
18:06:54 <sbp> ah, all the possible properties. not all the universal properties
18:07:13 <Arnia> Yes.
18:07:31 <sbp> and... the... extension is all the actual properties?
18:07:49 <sbp> so, non-flying is in the extension of penguin?
18:08:00 <Arnia> No
18:08:09 <Arnia> Give me a sec to think of a complete example
18:08:12 <sbp> 'k
18:08:31 <Arnia> Ok, imagine you have a statement sparrow --> bird
18:09:30 <Arnia> This means that, with some degree f (frequency), sparrow's intension includes that of bird's and (dually) with some degree f bird's extension includes that of sparrow's
18:09:48 <Arnia> (this is essentially the most general form of what it means to inherit)
18:10:26 <sbp> those two frequencies aren't necessarily the same, I take it?
18:11:44 <Arnia> Actually, they are... but why they are we can leave for the moment (it is to do with the definition of 'frequency')
18:12:11 <sbp> 'k
18:12:35 <sbp> so, here's a question: why does NAL have intension?
18:12:55 <Arnia> Now take penguin --> bird with some other degree g, and the same thing applies. g of the intension of bird is part of the intension of penguin and g of the extension of penguin is part of tat of bird
18:13:30 <sbp> m'kay, I follow that
18:13:32 <Arnia> NAL uses extension and intension together because it is the only way to precisely define what you mean by 'frequency' and 'confidence'
18:14:05 <Arnia> There are practical applications of course, but those are why you'd use NAL
18:14:16 <sbp> thanks
18:14:40 * sbp wonders how penguin relates to sparrow
18:14:55 <Arnia> Well, it would be an inductive relationship
18:15:22 <Arnia> S --> M, P --> M therefore S --> P (to some degree
18:15:23 <Arnia> )
18:15:58 <sbp> huh. that's hard to think about
18:16:07 <Arnia> The use of higher-order uncertainty (frequency and confidence together) allows one to define induction and abduction without allowing one to derive everything
18:16:22 <Arnia> sbp: you don't need to worry about it really
18:16:40 <sbp> so, like, sparrows and penguins both have wings; wing having is in the intension for ... okay
18:17:02 <Arnia> But induction allows you to define inheritances (and similarities) based upon shared properties whilst induction does the same for shared instances
18:17:15 <Arnia> uh, the second induction should be abduction
18:17:29 <Arnia> One possible (and exciting) application for this is in recommendation systems
18:17:30 <sbp> .wik Abduction (logic)
18:17:33 <phenny> "Abduction, or inference to the best explanation, is a method of reasoning in which one chooses the hypothesis that would, if true, best explain the relevant evidence." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abduction_(logic)
18:17:57 <Arnia> .wik syllogism
18:17:59 <phenny> "A syllogism (Greek: συλλογισμός — 'conclusion,' 'inference'), (usually the categorical syllogism) in logic is a kind of logical argument in which one proposition (the conclusion) is inferred from two others (the premises) of a certain form." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism
18:18:32 <sbp> P & Q. ∴ R
18:18:54 <Arnia> Essentially, there are four syllogistic forms (studied by Pierce) -- deduction, induction, abduction and exemplification (the last of which is like deriving instances in the same way that deduction derives properties)
18:20:02 <Arnia> With NAL you can compute how similar two items are, and based upon your likes of a collection of media compute (with some confidence c) how much you'll like a new piece of media
18:20:29 <Arnia> (essentially, you abduce and then deduce)
18:20:45 <sbp> hmm
18:20:53 <Arnia> Also, you can take into account other's ratings by computing how similar you are to the other people
18:20:54 * sbp tries to think of a birds analogy to that... :-)
18:21:00 <Arnia> Thus connecting your tastes with that
18:22:27 <bjoern_> .gc "democracy simulation"
18:22:29 <Arnia> sbp: http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/NARS-Examples-MultiSteps.txt
18:22:30 <phenny> "democracy simulation": 195
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18:22:58 <Arnia> In this %0.8% say means f=0.8
18:22:59 *** xover_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:23:13 <Arnia> %0.8;0.9% means f = 0.8 and c = 0.9
18:23:34 <sbp> <penguin --> bird>. %0.8%? what a weird thing to say
18:23:41 <sbp> what are the numbers in the left col for?
18:23:53 <Arnia> s {-- p is sugar for {s} --> p
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18:24:02 <sbp> [[[
18:24:03 <sbp> <penguin --> bird>. %0.8%
18:24:03 <sbp> 50
18:24:04 <sbp> ]]]
18:24:06 <Arnia> s --] p is sugar for s --> [p]
18:24:06 <sbp> e.g. the 50 there
18:24:17 <Arnia> sbp: number of inference steps I believe
18:24:31 *** l7 (n=l7@208.69.42.193) has joined #swhack
18:24:56 <Arnia> (where {s} is the extensional set defined as containing s and [p] is the intensional set defined as containing p)
18:25:48 <Arnia> For single-step inferences (probably easier to grasp atm): http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/NARS-Examples-SingleStep.txt
18:26:22 <sbp> why didn't <swan --> bird> appear as OUT:?
18:28:36 <Arnia> NARS is more non-deterministic than I personally feel it needs to be
18:28:51 <Arnia> And its resource allocation can do weird things
18:29:31 <Arnia> In this case, since robin --> bird with f = 1 and c = 0.9, there is no better answer
18:29:44 <Arnia> So it just never bothers to report anything as good
18:29:48 <sbp> huh
18:29:58 <Arnia> (it is very conservative with what it returns to questions)
18:30:19 <Arnia> Don't treat it like a data base... treat it like a person you're asking things of
18:30:42 <Arnia> When you ask someone 'Give an example of a bird' then they'll only give you the best example they can think of
18:30:46 <Arnia> (not all the examples0
18:31:00 <sbp> ah, that does make more sense
18:31:17 <sbp> so it's more like:
18:31:21 <sbp> "what's a bird?"
18:31:31 <sbp> "well, a penguin's a bird. ooh, even better, a robin's a bird"
18:31:44 <Arnia> Naturally you could give an API for querying statements directly rather than asking questions, but for a lot of domains you really do just want a good answer, rather than every possible answer
18:31:52 <Arnia> (especially with limited resources and limited knowledge)
18:31:58 <Arnia> sbp: yes, exactly
18:32:03 <sbp> a bit like ostensive definition
18:32:12 <sbp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostensive_definition
18:33:15 <Arnia> Here is an explanation of an important property of NAL: "A contradiction makes the system unsure on directly related questions, but will not make the system to derive an arbitrary conclusion on other sentences, as in propositional logic."
18:33:38 <Arnia> This is especially important in an open-system like the semantic web where people may (intensionally or accidentally) poison the data
18:33:55 <procto> mmm ostensive definitions
18:34:09 <procto> my copy of philosophical investigations is still en route from amazon
18:34:24 <Arnia> 'Trust as rules' may (although I'm sceptical) be able to deal with intentional poisoning but it can't help block accidental poisoning
18:34:38 <Arnia> And one man's poisoning will be another's nutrition too (in contentious domains)
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18:36:09 <sbp> procto: asl?
18:36:31 <procto> sbp: didn't we go through this already?
18:36:34 <sbp> hehe
18:36:54 <procto> it took me like 4 minutes to realize I was being trolled
18:36:55 <sbp> next I'll be warning you that we're publically logged
18:36:58 <sbp> heh, heh
18:37:06 <thelsdj> pubically logged
18:37:14 <sbp> we like to troll people before they troll us, essentially
18:37:20 <Arnia> publicanically logged
18:37:22 <sbp> because more often than not, that's what newcomers are here to do
18:37:30 <procto> sbp: well, your great efficacy is a testament to your trolling prowess
18:37:31 <sbp> parenthesisally logged
18:37:38 <sbp> woohoo
18:37:46 <sbp> we've been honed on many an attempted-troller
18:37:48 <Arnia> parakeetingly logged
18:38:06 <sbp> (sometimes with extraordinarily hilarious results)
18:38:30 <procto> other freenode channels I'm on don't have quite the same tone, so I wasn't expecting it
18:38:30 <sbp> anak-krakatoally logged
18:38:35 <procto> this is my "serious" network
18:38:39 <sbp> yeah
18:39:06 <Arnia> We're serious
18:39:11 <Arnia> Seriously barmy
18:39:14 <jsled> Seriously serious.
18:39:20 <Arnia> Seriously Sensual
18:39:25 <Arnia> Well, Monty is
18:39:26 <sbp> metaserious. with a hint of lemon scented sensuality
18:39:28 <Monty> Do you guys enjoy trying! see in ircii ... totally wrong.
18:39:28 <thelsdj> http://www.ohdiamonddiamondthoulittleknowestthemischiefthouhastdone.net/nodernohdiamond.mov
18:39:34 <thelsdj> thats one long domain name
18:39:58 <sbp> not as long as the llanfair p.g. domain though
18:40:06 <sbp> which, last time I tried, I could almost spell
18:40:10 * sbp tries again:
18:40:17 <procto> Monty is a markov chain thinger?
18:40:17 <Arnia> sbp: that's worrying
18:40:19 <Monty> Rayman is rather like feedback...?
18:40:27 <procto> hE SOUNDS LIKE ONE OF THEM
18:40:29 <sbp> .gc llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
18:40:30 <procto> oh wow
18:40:31 <phenny> llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch: 96,200
18:40:35 <sbp> WIN!
18:40:36 <Arnia> procto: he is the channel philosopher
18:40:38 <procto> I blame this tiny bluetooth keyboard
18:40:59 <Arnia> Anyone who is voiced is real, anyone who isn't is a bot
18:41:05 <thelsdj> ohdiamonddiamondthoulittleknowestthemischiefthouhastdone
18:41:06 <thelsdj> llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
18:41:10 <sbp> damn, that's awesome. first time I've ever spelled it right, off the bat, I think
18:41:13 <sbp> thelsdj: oh, rats
18:41:15 <thelsdj> 2 characters longer
18:41:26 <thelsdj> not bad
18:41:34 <sbp> .eval len('ohdiamonddiamondthoulittleknowestthemischiefthouhastdone')
18:41:37 <phenny> 56
18:41:38 <sbp> .eval len('llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch')
18:41:41 <phenny> 58
18:41:43 <sbp> oh, phew
18:41:57 <sbp> my proportional font made it look the other way around, but then I figured lots of l's so I'd better check
18:42:45 <thelsdj> "llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is a hard word, how do you spell it?" "it"
18:42:51 <sbp> heh
18:43:12 <sbp> it's easy if you've learned it phonetically, and know Welsh's rather regular orthography
18:43:15 * Arnia uses this moment to bring up the use and mention debate
18:43:29 <bjoern_> using names is cheating
18:43:31 <bjoern_> .gc Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitaen
18:43:32 <sbp> .compare "now you come to mention it" "now you come to use it"
18:43:36 <phenny> Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitaen: 902
18:43:39 <phenny> "now you come to mention it" (11,600), "now you come to use it" (1)
18:43:55 <Arnia> sbp: did my ramble make sense?
18:43:57 <procto> compare is a google fight?
18:44:28 <Arnia> procto: with added phenny love
18:44:38 <sbp> Arnia: yeah, I think so. you meant that poison data is effectively isolated from an inference perspective?
18:44:42 <Arnia> thanks phenny
18:44:45 <phenny> Don't mention it.
18:45:30 <Arnia> sbp: more like its influence is dramatically reduced. The only way to know poison data is data which differs from all other evidence
18:45:44 <thelsdj> just don't let procto know about mangle
18:45:54 <procto> oh shitz
18:46:08 <Arnia> sbp: so, the other data will outweigh it stopping the poison from causing fun like being able to prove everything
18:47:24 <sbp> heh
18:47:37 <sbp> gotcha
18:47:39 <Arnia> sbp: if you include a trust model (see my twitter feed for thoughts about this one) then you can not only use sheer weight of evidence but also social similarity filters to reduce confidence in a particular belief
18:47:54 <sbp> ooh, that's given me an idea
18:48:03 <sbp> batch outputs of twitter friends, as an RSS feed
18:48:06 <sbp> well, Atom feed
18:48:09 * bjoern_ rolls eyes
18:48:12 <Arnia> twitter2rdf ?
18:48:19 <sbp> well, Twitter to Atom
18:48:25 <sbp> probably with daily output feeds or something
18:48:35 <Arnia> well, there is a twitter to RDF translator isn't their? :)
18:48:37 <Arnia> there
18:48:39 <Arnia> gah
18:48:43 * Arnia stabs himself
18:48:48 <sbp> is there? hmm
18:48:55 <sbp> might be able to nick that. is it pythonic?
18:49:01 <Arnia> Think so
18:49:03 <sbp> .g Twitter to RDF
18:49:06 <phenny> sbp: http://groups.google.com/group/sioc-dev/browse_thread/thread/2fdfff5787a8c6a5
18:49:14 <Arnia> http://twitter.swhack.com :p
18:49:19 <bjoern_> the American Chamber of Commerce in Germany complains about the U.S. stance on privacy...
18:49:45 <sbp> "Twitter2RDF. An RDF exporter for Twitter microblogs has been created that uses SIOC (for the microblog entries) and FOAF (for describing the people). For example, here are representations of Twitter microblogs for two users: captsolo and johnbreslin."
18:49:53 <Arnia> SIOC? Was CaptSolo involved...
18:49:55 <Arnia> ah, he was :)
18:49:58 <sbp> which links, perhaps oddly, to http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2007-05-04.html#T14-49-31
18:50:07 <sbp> calling CaptSolo. calling CaptSolo
18:50:11 <sbp> and TomMorris, for that matter
18:50:21 *** karamba38 has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:50:31 * sbp tries http://tools.opiumfield.com/twitter/captsolo/rdf
18:51:33 <thelsdj> i should use twitter at some point
18:51:40 <sbp> it seems to have problems
18:51:57 <procto> I tried getting into it
18:52:02 <procto> but I just couldn't
18:52:14 <Arnia> I have found myself using twitter as a sort of rambling journal
18:52:25 <procto> Arnia: how long are your entries?
18:52:30 <sbp> procto: me neither. it truncated the name of my country!
18:52:30 <Arnia> I scribble ideas onto the web in a very stream of consciousness style
18:52:33 <sbp> I've not used it since
18:52:50 <Arnia> sbp: EVERYWHERE truncates the name of our country
18:53:08 <procto> truncate to what?
18:53:11 <sbp> well yes. but still, it's more annoying when a Web 2.0 application does it
18:53:24 <sbp> "Location: United Kingdom of Great Britai"
18:53:36 <sbp> - http://twitter.com/sbp
18:53:38 <procto> oh shitz
18:53:51 <sbp> it didn't even let me complete the word
18:54:06 <sbp> let alone add the other three words
18:54:18 <Arnia> procto: they can be short thoughts or long ideas spread over several twitters
18:54:18 <thelsdj> sbp: i think procto is a bot
18:54:30 <Arnia> I think of it as a more dynamic form of a blog
18:54:35 <sbp> reflected
18:54:39 <Arnia> But more suited to my general rambling style
18:54:53 <procto> .eval len("United Kingdom of Great Britai")
18:55:14 <sbp> .eval len("United Kingdom of Great Britai")
18:55:14 <procto> .eval len('United Kingdom of Great Britai')
18:55:14 <phenny> 30
18:55:26 <sbp> that function's limited because it allows arbitrary code execution
18:55:29 <procto> a 30 char limit?
18:55:33 <sbp> yeah
18:55:44 <procto> that's weird and non-standard
18:55:49 <procto> not even a proper power of two!
18:55:52 <sbp> and wrong
18:55:54 <procto> 32 I'd understand
18:56:11 <procto> and it would even let you complete the word
18:56:32 <bjoern_> [[[
18:56:45 <bjoern_> Large majorities of Europeans (71%) continued to agree
18:56:45 <bjoern_> that it should be the role of the European Union to help
18:56:45 <bjoern_> establish democracy in other countries, while support
18:56:45 <bjoern_> for democracy promotion among Americans has fallen
18:56:45 <bjoern_> over the past three years from 52% in 2005 to 45% in
18:56:46 <bjoern_> 2006 to 37% in 2007.
18:56:48 <bjoern_> ]]] - http://www.transatlantictrends.org/trends/index.cfm?id=54
18:57:10 <sbp> let me prepare a graph of that latter dataset (America)
18:57:16 <sbp> \
18:57:19 <procto> thelsdj: some people have already called me a cyborg, so I guess I'm getting there
18:57:50 <sbp> ascii graphs are so fun
18:58:07 <bjoern_> "Only 36% of Europeans viewed U.S. leadership in world affairs as \ldblquote desirable,\rdblquote a figure virtually unchanged from 2004, and the percentage of Europeans who approved of President Bush\rquote s international policies remained around 20 percentage points lower."
18:59:30 <bjoern_> "Fifty-eight percent of Europeans viewed U.S. leadership in world affairs as \ldblquote undesirable, ...\rdblquote
19:00:23 <sbp> .calc 100 - 36 - 58
19:00:31 <phenny> 100 - 36 - 58 = 6
19:00:43 <sbp> 6% said "SHUT UP, I'M BELGIAN"?
19:01:23 <procto> so belgians love the US?
19:01:40 <procto> hm, one of the belgians I know is a libertarian, so maybe
19:01:47 <bjoern_> [[[
19:01:54 <bjoern_> Since 2005, the most dramatic changes in threat perceptions
19:01:54 <bjoern_> have occurred in Germany, where 70% of Germans
19:01:54 <bjoern_> (+32 percentage points since 2005) felt likely to be personally
19:01:54 <bjoern_> affected by international terrorism. In 2007, 57% of
19:01:54 <bjoern_> Germans (+28 percentage points since 2005) felt likely to
19:01:55 <bjoern_> be personally affected by Islamic fundamentalism, and
19:01:58 <bjoern_> 74% (+26 percentage points since 2005) felt likely to be
19:01:59 <bjoern_> personally affected by immigration. These changes brought
19:02:01 <bjoern_> German views closer to the European averages than in 2005,
19:02:03 <bjoern_> when threat perceptions in Germany on international terrorism
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19:02:05 <bjoern_> and Islamic fundamentalism were the lowest among
19:02:07 <bjoern_> the countries surveyed.
19:02:09 <bjoern_> ]]]
19:02:14 <procto> but he's flemish so it makes sense, maybe.
19:02:36 <sbp> procto: no, otherwise they'd vote "desirable"
19:02:42 <procto> ah
19:03:09 <sbp> 70%?!
19:03:29 <procto> It's those dang turks
19:03:42 <procto> and their delicious kabob
19:03:43 <sbp> it'd be nice to know what the actual effect figures are
19:03:51 <procto> donerrr
19:04:28 <procto> I'm confined to gyro and shawarma around here
19:04:54 <sbp> do you say gyro with a /g/ or a /j/?
19:05:00 <procto> wow, this channel keeps bringing me to rotating meats
19:05:22 <procto> /j/
19:05:41 <thelsdj> actually, its yero
19:05:59 <procto> thelsdj: right, /yIro/
19:06:14 <thelsdj> but i tend to say /j/
19:06:20 <procto> or maybe some fancier vowel whose ascii-IPA I don't remember
19:06:34 <procto> thelsdj: right, /yIro/
19:06:39 <procto> wth
19:06:43 <thelsdj> whatever it is, i like rotating meat
19:06:43 <procto> ugh, up key
19:06:47 <procto> yess
19:06:55 <procto> is shashlik a rotating meat?
19:07:15 * procto was born in uzbekistan
19:07:22 <procto> mmm shashlik
19:07:56 <sbp> .wik rotating meats
19:08:00 <phenny> "Kebab (also transliterated as kabab, kebap, kabob, kibob) refers to a variety of grilled/broiled meat dishes in Middle Eastern cuisine and South Asian cuisine." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kebab
19:08:17 <sbp> come on, no List_of_rotating_meats?
19:08:17 <procto> alright, time to go!
19:08:21 <sbp> you're off?
19:08:24 <procto> toodle pip
19:08:26 <sbp> c'ya!
19:08:59 <thelsdj> you need to stick around longer one of these days
19:12:27 <sbp> he does
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19:18:51 <sbp> heh, Welsh guy called John Davies on the TV
19:18:56 <sbp> .wik John Davies of Hereford
19:18:59 <phenny> "John Davies of Hereford (c. 1565, Hereford, England—July 1618, London) was a writing-master and an Anglo-Welsh poet." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Davies_of_Hereford
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19:28:32 <sbp> Nicholas Crane is covering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraldus_Cambrensis this week
19:28:35 <sbp> BBC 2. very good stuff
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19:54:24 <Monty> hey xover
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20:12:52 <sbp> Arnia: who's kaetzchen?
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20:13:24 <bjoern_> phenny, de "Kaetzchen"?
20:13:27 <phenny> bjoern_: "Kaetzchen" (de)
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20:15:49 <bjoern_> (it's diminutive of "cat", broadly speaking; kitty, catkin, a german WWII tank, ...)
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20:21:57 <bancus> catkin?