00:00:19 <nsh> .ety picayune
00:00:23 <phenny> "1804, 'coin of small value,' probably from Louisiana Fr. picaillon 'coin worth 5 cents,' earlier the Fr. name of an old copper coin of Savoy (1750), from Prov. picaioun 'small copper coin,' from picaio 'money,' of uncertain origin." - http://etymonline.com/?term=picayune
00:01:19 <nsh> .w picayune
00:01:21 <phenny> picayune a. 1: (informal) small and of little importance.
00:05:45 <bjoern_> .gc "math atheists"
00:05:46 <phenny> "math atheists": 224
00:06:30 <kpreid> .ety polymath
00:06:30 <phenny> "1621, from Gk. polymathes 'having learned much,' from polys 'much' (see poly-) + root of manthanein 'learn.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=polymath
00:06:40 <kpreid> .ety mathematic
00:06:43 <phenny> "c.1380 as singular, replaced by early 17c. by mathematics (1581), from L. mathematica (pl.), from Gk. mathematike tekhne 'mathematical science,' fem. sing. of mathematikos (adj.) 'relating to mathematics, scientific,' from mathema (gen. mathematos) 'science, knowledge, [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=mathematic
00:07:04 <kpreid> hm
00:14:47 <therethinker> hmm indeed
00:19:52 <thelsdj> i'm currently trying to brush up on my high school level maths
00:20:06 <thelsdj> or more accurately, learn them in the first place
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00:54:16 <thelsdj> so far, scientific notation: easy, exponents: hard (atleast going to take more practice to have them down)
01:01:19 <nsh> this book is good, thelsdj
01:01:39 <nsh> ~50%
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01:02:42 <thelsdj> oooh, glad you like!
01:03:11 <thelsdj> its really a love / coming of age story, more so than a sci-fi heheh
01:03:23 <nsh> yeah, lots of good psychology
01:03:56 <nsh> all good sci-fi is philosophopsychological
01:04:29 <nsh> but 24 hours on a bowl of cereal is probably not good for me
01:04:38 * nsh goes for some foods
01:05:01 <thelsdj> i had bad pizza
01:05:16 <thelsdj> now i am subsisting on sugar and caffeen
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01:08:49 <Monty> hey redmonk
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01:11:07 <thelsdj> nsh: have you read 'a fire upon the deep' and 'a deepness in the sky' by vernor vinge? I can't really recommend his new novel, but reading it did make me want to go back and read his previous 2
01:12:35 <nsh> rainbows end was the first i've read, and i see where you're coming from, but i might check out his previous work
01:13:08 <thelsdj> his previous stuff is very different, and very good
01:13:17 <nsh> cool
01:13:37 <thelsdj> if you like a good 'woah those are totally awesome aliens!' book, then they are for you
01:13:43 * nsh smiles
01:13:47 * laplink thoroughly hated Vernor Vinge…
01:13:55 <thelsdj> oh shush
01:13:57 <thelsdj> ;)
01:13:59 <laplink> :-)
01:14:07 <thelsdj> laplink: read anything good recently?
01:14:31 <laplink> Nah. Steven Eriksson mostly. George R.R. Martin.
01:14:57 <thelsdj> .wik Steven Eriksson
01:15:01 <phenny> "The requested page title was invalid, empty, an incorrectly linked inter-language or inter-wiki title, or contained unsupported characters." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven-G%C3%B6ran_Eriksson
01:15:21 <laplink> Plowed through R.Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing and pretty much hated that too.
01:15:24 <thelsdj> i read the first in that rr martin series, didn't really get into it
01:15:42 <laplink> .wik Steven Erikson
01:15:45 <phenny> "Steven Erikson (born October 7, 1959) (a pseudonym, his real name being Steve Rune Lundin), is a Canadian novelist, who was educated and trained as both an archaeologist and anthropologist." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Erikson
01:16:04 <thelsdj> yea i found that
01:16:06 <laplink> It gets better, up until the last book or two when he seems to have kind of floundered.
01:16:29 <laplink> I think the world and the story is getting away from him.
01:16:37 <thelsdj> i'm in the mood for a good Robert J. Sawyer right now I think
01:16:42 <thelsdj> something short and sweet
01:17:44 <laplink> Hmm. Don't think I've read anything by him. Might be worth a shot.
01:18:03 <laplink> I don't think I've found any good SF since Donaldson's Gap series.
01:18:11 <thelsdj> Calculating God, Flashforward
01:18:28 <laplink> Well, there was Ringworld, of course, but it kinda bored me after a while.
01:18:46 <thelsdj> Factoring Humanity
01:18:50 <laplink> Oh, which reminds me, I think I have the Flatlanders collected somewhere around here.
01:19:17 * laplink makes a note to check out Robert J. Sawyer…
01:20:05 <laplink> Hmm. I wonder if there's a new Culture novel out by now...
01:20:43 <thelsdj> who is that?
01:20:51 <laplink> Iain M. Banks
01:21:04 <thelsdj> right, i've been meaning to check those out
01:21:12 <laplink> They're excellent.
01:21:22 <thelsdj> is it kinda space opera'ish?
01:21:37 <laplink> Particularly “Use of Weapons”; where he truly cements his bastard!-ness.
01:21:45 <laplink> yeah
01:22:03 <thelsdj> i really love Peter F. Hamilton
01:22:08 <laplink> .wik The Culture
01:22:12 <phenny> "The Culture is a fictional anarchic, socialistic and utopian society created by the Scottish writer Iain M. Banks and described by him in several of his novels and shorter fictions." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture
01:22:27 <laplink> I'm… ambivalent on Hamilton.
01:22:51 <laplink> I should probably reread him.
01:23:25 <thelsdj> i've never read his really early stuff, nanoflower or whatever
01:23:33 <thelsdj> i started with the Nights Dawn trilogy
01:23:50 <thelsdj> which totally blew me away
01:24:53 <laplink> Yeah, I thought it was promising, but he kinda lost me half way through. Too, I dunno, cliche or juvenile or something.
01:25:12 <laplink> The earlier books are actually better IMO.
01:25:39 <laplink> And what was that god awfull fantasy thing I just read…
01:25:58 <laplink> Oh, right, Trudi Canavan's Black Magician trilogy.
01:26:05 <thelsdj> if your looking for a _good_ fantasy, try Name of the Wind
01:26:31 <laplink> I kept thinking “Come back when you finish highschool.”
01:26:44 <laplink> .wik Name of the Wind
01:26:49 <phenny> "The Name of the Wind (The Kingkiller Chronicle: Day One) is a fantasy book by Patrick Rothfuss, the first book in a series called The Kingkiller Chronicles." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Name_of_the_Wind
01:27:39 <laplink> It's not a children's/young-adult book is it?
01:27:45 <thelsdj> no
01:27:49 <laplink> ah, good.
01:27:53 <radii> banks' most recent novel is still Algebraist, which isn't Culture, but apparently there's a new Culture novel due in February: "Matter".
01:28:03 <laplink> I could barely stand Rowling's writing.
01:28:05 <thelsdj> its fantasy at its best, and total non derivative
01:28:12 <laplink> radii: Thanks!
01:28:24 <laplink> thelsdj: Cool, thanks for the tip.
01:28:39 <radii> Algebraist is definitely in the vein of culture, so if you haven't read it, give it a shot.
01:29:00 <laplink> I think it's sitting on my shelf somewhere, but I haven't read it yet.
01:29:16 <thelsdj> even some of the really good fantasy i've read recently is still really derivative, like the Wayfarer Redemption stuff
01:29:35 <thelsdj> but this is oh so original
01:29:47 <laplink> I wouldn't mind Derivative so much if the author was actually half way competent at his craft.
01:30:32 <laplink> I mean, Stephen Donaldson could write about Hairy Pucker at Hogfuck Academy and it'd still be good.
01:30:42 <thelsdj> this is the first novel by this author, but i put him up with Guy Gavriel Kay in his writing ability
01:32:41 <laplink> Hmm. I also have Fiona McIntosh's Quickening trilogy sitting around here, but I've been afraid to start it after Canavan and Bakker.
01:34:10 <thelsdj> my sister recently read and recommended a series which was mixture of fantasy and 19th century naval tactics (with dragons)
01:34:12 <laplink> And then there's Fritz Leiber's Ill Met in Lankhmar, but…
01:34:25 <laplink> McAffrey?
01:34:28 <thelsdj> no
01:35:11 <laplink> I think I'd like a good Lamplighter Fantasy right about now, given my recent discovery and inevitable obsession with Girl Genius.
01:35:53 <thelsdj> not really what your looking for, but have you read China Mieville?
01:36:06 <laplink> I'm not usually too fond of mixing fantasy and “technology”, but Girl Genius pulls it off so well.
01:36:13 <laplink> Mieville… hmm.
01:36:28 <laplink> I think I read one of his and didn't much like it.
01:36:42 <thelsdj> Perdido Street Station?
01:36:49 <laplink> That's probably the one.
01:37:05 <laplink> Nothing wrong with him or it, but the style didn't suit me.
01:37:16 <thelsdj> ya its a weird style
01:37:31 <laplink> I also have King Rat here somewhere but haven't managed to start it.
01:37:41 <thelsdj> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345481283/104-0240713-1174358
01:37:48 <thelsdj> King Rat is good, atleast I liked it
01:38:00 <thelsdj> not as weird writing as perdido
01:38:20 <laplink> .wik Naomi Novik
01:38:20 <thelsdj> its more sort of a fairy tale crossover like gaimans stardust
01:38:23 <phenny> "Naomi Novik (1973—) is an American novelist." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Novik
01:38:38 <laplink> Yeah, Gaiman's novels are… a sore point.
01:39:10 <laplink> I absolutely love the Sandman, but his other stuff… I kind of feel like a traitor for not enjoying them more.
01:39:27 <thelsdj> heh, i feel bad because i haven't read all of sandman
01:39:48 <thelsdj> one of those things i keep forgetting that i haven't actually read it all
01:40:00 <laplink> (Sandman == The Sandman + Books of Magic + Lucifer + ... all his graphic novels, essentially)
01:40:29 <thelsdj> i did read the Books of Magic mini thing
01:40:39 <thelsdj> also i've read his whole Black Orchid mini
01:40:52 <thelsdj> don't think i've read lucifer
01:42:41 <laplink> I'm actually quite hopefull that the Stardust movie will work. Or rather, that Stardust will work as a movie.
01:43:18 <thelsdj> oh you haven't seen it yet?
01:43:22 <thelsdj> was my movie of the summer!
01:43:23 <thelsdj> saw it twice
01:43:29 <laplink> Nope, just opened over here.
01:43:33 <thelsdj> cool
01:44:25 <laplink> Oh, and I also need to read that Eragon stuff.
01:44:36 <clsn> Ugh, I read Eragon.
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01:45:04 <clsn> It's... well, in fairness, I do want to read the next book. But you can tell he has little skill or experience at writing.
01:45:27 <laplink> The movie didn't really do it for me; fair enough the author was in highschool when he wrote it, but did they really have to get a script writer and director that were in highschool too?.
01:45:43 <clsn> The movie was HORRIBLE. Far worse than the book, and that's saying something.
01:45:47 <thelsdj> i'm still waiting for them to make a movie of that genius fantasy kid, the one that gets kidnapped by goblins or whatever it is
01:45:53 <thelsdj> shit, whats the name of that series
01:46:12 <thelsdj> its all very humourous
01:46:16 <laplink> Hmm. British. Predates Potter but quite similar?
01:46:24 <thelsdj> has leprichans or something
01:46:38 <thelsdj> and a funny name for their police force
01:47:05 <thelsdj> shit
01:47:10 <laplink> Sounds like the one I'm thinking of. Isn't that agressively a kiddy series?
01:47:16 <clsn> Eragon is also so unspeakably derivative. And this from me, who often doesn't notice the shortcomings of books at all.
01:47:31 <thelsdj> only in the same way that potter and his dark materials is i think
01:48:14 <thelsdj> .wik Artemis Fowl
01:48:17 <phenny> "Artemis Fowl (series) for the popular book series." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_Fowl
01:48:19 <thelsdj> thats it
01:48:21 <laplink> Atsa one.
01:48:44 <laplink> Yeah, I had Eragon recommended several years back by a cow-orker but the sleeve suggested I'd hate it. Now I feel obliged to read the damn thing.
01:49:02 <thelsdj> LEPrecon
01:49:24 <laplink> Artemis Fowl I kinda discarded because it seemed to be aimed at too young an age bracket for me to be able to enjoy it.
01:49:40 <clsn> He does manage something I wasn't quite expecting in the second book. Not the Big Surprise at the end, but the way he split the plot. I wasn't expecting him to stay with the other half.
01:49:57 <thelsdj> for me it was half way between discworld and harry potter
01:49:58 <clsn> My daughter's read some of Artemis Fowl...
01:50:11 <thelsdj> more childish than discworld, but still damn funny
01:50:22 <laplink> Hmm. May have to reevaluate that then.
01:50:43 <clsn> Hell, I've been mildly enjoying the unapologetically for-children series she's been reading lately too.
01:51:01 * clsn is apparently not that hard to please.
01:51:05 <laplink> heh heh
01:51:40 <thelsdj> oh man, i can't wait to read stuff like moomintroll and my fathers dragon to my kids
01:52:05 <thelsdj> can't really justify reading it myself, but will be fun to read it to children
01:52:18 * laplink wonders what would happen if he read David Eddings first two series (Belgariad? Malloreon?) again.
01:52:18 <kpreid> Ooh! Books!
01:52:38 <laplink> The Moomin scared the bejeesus out of me as a kid…
01:53:20 <thelsdj> haha
01:53:27 <thelsdj> i do want to reread belgariad again
01:54:09 <laplink> Given I was ~12, and his later books I hated with a passion, I'm afraid I'll destroy a fond memory if I do read them again.
01:54:57 <clsn> My son found the Eddings books and has read them all, up until the one we can't seem to track down...
01:54:58 <thelsdj> what is that other author that has a big wizards apprentice type series that came out around the same time
01:55:01 <clsn> it's somewhere in the house...
01:55:04 <laplink> Hmm. Actually, I was 14. Bought the first book at the airport in Wienna, of all places.
01:55:45 <laplink> Hmm. Nothing springs to mind.
01:56:04 <thelsdj> ooho
01:56:06 <thelsdj> riftwar saga
01:56:17 <thelsdj> thats what i was thinking of
01:56:21 <laplink> Oh! Oh!
01:56:31 <laplink> How could I have forgotten!
01:56:54 <thelsdj> thats something i read the same time as belgariad
01:57:03 <laplink> Eddings and Feist pretty much shaped my literary interests.
01:57:10 <thelsdj> interestingly, i have not successfully made it through wizards of earthsea books hehe
01:57:26 <laplink> Yeah, Leguin bores me.
01:57:29 <thelsdj> even though my da dtried pretty hard
01:57:42 <thelsdj> i quickly moved on to Card and Asimov
01:57:43 <laplink> And after her spat with Doctorow I'm kinda fed up with her.
01:57:49 <thelsdj> after feist and eddings
01:59:21 <laplink> Feist also did a very good non-Swords&Sorcery fantasy standalone novel.
01:59:44 <laplink> .wik Faerie Tale
01:59:48 <phenny> "Faerie Tale is a fantasy novel by Raymond E. Feist, first published in 1988." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faerie_Tale
02:00:43 <laplink> It's kind of like Gaiman's American Gods, but more down to earth.
02:01:13 <nsh> .gc folkways
02:01:16 <phenny> folkways: 1,670,000
02:03:44 <laplink> .t CET
02:03:46 <phenny> Thu, 25 Oct 2007 03:21:53 CET
02:03:58 <laplink> .t CEST
02:04:00 <phenny> Thu, 25 Oct 2007 04:22:06 CEST
02:04:59 <laplink> Hmm. Stay up another hour and forty — to see if the nitwit telco brings my two hospitals back online on time — or go to bed…
02:05:57 <laplink> Fucking idiots decide to take down connectivity for two hospitals for “planned maintenance” for 8 hours, without bothering to tell a soul about it in advance.
02:06:11 <nsh> good 'planning'
02:06:15 <laplink> yeah
02:07:01 <nsh> i think the time of telcos and isps is growing short
02:07:21 <nsh> but i think that about a lot of things and few agree.. :-)
02:07:46 * laplink decides to go to bed and gamble that some hapless user will page him if the telco delivers as expected rather then as promised…
02:08:15 <nsh> take care, novels dreams
02:08:21 <nsh> *novel
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02:29:06 <nsh> .wik Senescence
02:29:10 <phenny> "In biology, senescence is the combination of processes of deterioration which follow the period of development of an organism." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senescence
02:29:21 <nsh> .ety senescence
02:29:24 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "senescence". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=senescence
02:38:45 <thelsdj> shit, i am sucking at this math
02:38:55 <thelsdj> radicals are teh evil
02:55:37 <nsh> true that
02:56:38 <thelsdj> i almost feel like i should review fractions :(
02:57:48 <nsh> i always feel like i should review fractions
02:57:57 <thelsdj> hehe
02:58:02 <nsh> Roger Penrose's "The Road to Reality" starts with a thorough review of fractions
02:58:05 <thelsdj> fractions are really evil
03:00:25 * nsh wishes there was a faster way to absorb information than reading
03:01:30 <nsh> gotta be some brainhack to push the bandwidth past the eye-scanning bottleneck
03:01:34 <thelsdj> shit like this just does not parse in my mind: (-125)^(2/3)
03:01:40 <thelsdj> .calc (-125) ^ (2/3)
03:01:43 <phenny> (-125)^(2 / 3) = -12.5 + 21.6506351 i
03:01:51 <thelsdj> see and thats wrong
03:01:53 <thelsdj> its supposedly 25
03:02:25 <thelsdj> if google can't do it, how am i supposed to do it?
03:02:44 <kpreid> who says it's 25?
03:02:53 <nsh> .calc ((-125)^2)^(1/3)
03:02:55 <phenny> ((-125)^2)^(1 / 3) = 25
03:03:23 <nsh> .ety ambiguous
03:03:26 <phenny> "1528, from L. ambiguus 'having double meaning, shifting, changeable, doubtful,' adj. derived from ambigere 'to dispute about,' lit. 'to wander,' from ambi- 'about' + agere 'drive, lead, act' (see act)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=ambiguous
03:03:30 <thelsdj> heh
03:03:56 <thelsdj> so the notation of (-125)^(2/3) doesn't really mean that? huh
03:04:07 <kpreid> no, whoever says that means 25 is wrong
03:04:25 <thelsdj> http://www.wtamu.edu/academic/anns/mps/math/mathlab/col_algebra/col_alg_tut5_ratexp.htm
03:04:28 <thelsdj> example 2
03:04:28 <kpreid> .calc -125 ^ 2
03:04:31 <phenny> -(125^2) = -15 625
03:04:55 <nsh> hrmm
03:05:03 * nsh brb memleak
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03:05:36 <thelsdj> supposedly -125 ^ 2/3 translates to cube rute of -125 squared
03:05:49 <thelsdj> cube root of -125 is -5
03:05:53 <thelsdj> and -5 squared is 25
03:06:08 <thelsdj> er i mean (cube root of -125) squared
03:07:06 <kpreid> hrm
03:07:13 <kpreid> okay, that *doesn't* look wrong
03:07:22 * kpreid is confused!
03:07:25 <thelsdj> hehe
03:07:51 <kpreid> .calc ((-125)^(1/3))^2
03:07:54 <phenny> ((-125)^(1 / 3))^2 = 25
03:08:07 <kpreid> .calc (-125)^(1/3*2)
03:08:10 <phenny> (-125)^((1 / 3) * 2) = -12.5 + 21.6506351 i
03:08:13 <kpreid> .calc (-125)^(1/3+2)
03:08:16 <phenny> (-125)^((1 / 3) + 2) = 39 062.5 + 67 658.2347 i
03:08:20 <kpreid> .calc (-125)^(1/3^2)
03:08:23 <phenny> (-125)^(1 / (3^2)) = -1.70997595
03:08:27 <kpreid> .calc (-125)^((1/3)^2)
03:08:29 <phenny> (-125)^((1 / 3)^2) = -1.70997595
03:09:01 <kpreid> .calc (237 ^ 3) ^ 5
03:09:05 <phenny> (237^3)^5 = 4.18047076e35
03:09:10 <kpreid> .calc (237 ^ (3 * 5)
03:09:13 <phenny> 237^(3 * 5) = 4.18047076e35
03:09:17 <kpreid> okay, I thought so
03:09:35 <kpreid> .calc (237 ^ (1/2)) ^ (1/2)
03:09:38 <phenny> (237^(1 / 2))^(1 / 2) = 3.92362133
03:09:53 <kpreid> .calc (237 ^ ((1/2)*(1/2)))
03:09:56 <phenny> 237^((1 / 2) * (1 / 2)) = 3.92362133
03:10:10 <kpreid> .calc (237 ^ (.25))
03:10:12 <phenny> 237^.25 = 3.92362133
03:10:32 <kpreid> .calc (-237 ^ (1/2)) ^ (1/2)
03:10:35 <phenny> (-(237^(1 / 2)))^(1 / 2) = 3.92362133 i
03:10:44 <kpreid> .calc (-237 ^ (.25))
03:10:48 <phenny> -(237^.25) = -3.92362133
03:11:01 <kpreid> whoops
03:11:05 <kpreid> .calc ((-237) ^ (.25))
03:11:07 <phenny> (-237)^.25 = 2.77441925 + 2.77441925 i
03:13:11 <thelsdj> ah
03:13:18 <thelsdj> #math says that -125 has 3 cube roots
03:13:24 <thelsdj> so the answer google gives is one correct answer
03:13:51 <kpreid> .calc ((-237) ^ (1/2)) ^ (1/2)
03:13:53 <phenny> ((-237)^(1 / 2))^(1 / 2) = 2.77441925 + 2.77441925 i
03:14:07 <kpreid> aha, that's why google seemed inconsistent; I forgot the precedence thing
03:14:57 <kpreid> .calc ((-237) ^ (.5))
03:15:00 <phenny> (-237)^.5 = 15.3948043 i
03:16:34 <kpreid> gah, seems like there's something interesting geometric fact just out of sight
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03:42:44 <nsh-> .ety substrate
03:42:47 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "substrate". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=substrate
03:47:06 <nsh-> junket is an interesting word
03:47:52 <nsh-> 1382, "basket in which fish are caught or carried," from M.L. juncata "rush basket," perhaps from L. juncus "rush." Shifted meaning 1530 to "feast, banquet," probably via notion of a picnic basket, which led to extended sense of "pleasure trip" (1814), and then to "tour by government official at public expense for no discernable public benefit" (1886, Amer.Eng.). Cf. It. cognate giuncata "cream cheese" (originally made in a rush basket).
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04:23:17 <nsh-> @translate spanish english mejoremoslo
04:23:18 <supybot> nsh-: mejoremoslo
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04:45:17 <nsh> .wik pro tem
04:45:20 <phenny> "Pro tempore or pro tem is a Latin phrase which best translates to 'for the time being' in English." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_tem
04:49:17 <nsh> .g Lacuna hunters
04:49:20 <phenny> nsh: http://www.last.fm/music/Lacuna+Coil/_/The+Ghost+Woman+and+the+Hunter
04:49:23 <nsh> bah
04:49:46 <nsh> there needs to be a group of people that search for legal lacunae
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06:32:35 <thelsdj> http://cgi.ebay.com/LAST-ONE-Living-Dead-Sadie-Pencil-Sharpener-RARE_W0QQitemZ230185023025QQihZ013QQcategoryZ36563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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06:56:05 <sbp> My pillow?
06:56:07 <phenny> sbp: 24 Oct 23:26Z <bjoern_> tell sbp http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/24/fox-news-al-qaeda-is-causing-the-ca-wildires/
06:56:11 <phenny> sbp: 01:24Z <chimezie> tell sbp to see http://pygments.org/demo/499/\
06:56:42 <thelsdj> fuck your pillow and the horse it rode in on
06:57:03 <sbp> "Allison Allison Camerota" - funny name
06:57:13 <sbp> thelsdj: it didn't ride, it flew!
06:57:25 <sbp> on an invisible green unicorn
06:59:07 * sbp wonders what he's meant to be looking at in http://pygments.org/demo/499/
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07:46:30 <thelsdj> new zero punctuation: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/2563-Zero-Punctuation-Super-Paper-Mario
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07:53:18 <tobbez> Still think the one about ro
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07:53:28 <tobbez> *orange box was better
07:54:30 <thelsdj> shit i hadn't seen that yet!!!
07:54:44 * thelsdj watches
07:58:58 <thelsdj> omg
07:59:05 <thelsdj> glad he liked portal hehe
07:59:19 <jewel> I was looking for patents relating to "constant pools" used in the JVM spec and AVM spec, and the next patent on that website was this one:
07:59:21 <jewel> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6338161.html
08:08:09 <sbp> you slowcoaches
08:08:16 <sbp> draggles jumped on that the *minute* it came out
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09:06:46 <sbp> hmm
09:06:58 * sbp is experimenting with the CWM API
09:07:00 <sbp> with some success!
09:08:06 <sbp> $ echo | plan3 --plan3=hello.n3
09:08:06 <sbp> Hello, world!
09:08:15 <sbp> plan3 is a patched version of the cvs CWM
09:08:38 <sbp> [[[
09:08:39 <sbp> <> doc "hello.n3 - Hello World Test";
09:08:39 <sbp> dc:author [ foaf:homepage <http://inamidst.com/sbp/> ] .
09:08:39 <sbp> e:hello def (() (say "Hello, world!")) .
09:08:39 <sbp> e:main main ((e:hello)) .
09:08:43 <sbp> ]]] - hello.n3
09:15:11 <sbp> the similarity to Pluvo is not accidental
09:15:36 <sbp> at least I don't have to worry about interpolation, classes, and typing
09:15:56 * sbp cranks it up a notch:
09:15:56 <sbp> e:add def ((i:p i:q)
09:15:56 <sbp> (add i:p i:q)
09:15:57 <sbp> ) .
09:15:57 <sbp> e:main main (
09:15:57 <sbp> (say (e:add 35 150))
09:15:59 <sbp> ) .
09:17:18 <sbp> hmm. not sure about the documentation style:
09:17:18 <sbp> e:add doc "Two valued version of the builtin add function";
09:17:18 <sbp> def ((i:p i:q)
09:17:18 <sbp> (add i:p i:q)
09:17:18 <sbp> ) .
09:17:25 <sbp> I suppose that'll do for now
09:20:06 <sbp> not entirely sure how to quote a list yet
09:20:18 <sbp> I'll probably do something lisplike, e.g. (q 1 2 3)
09:20:31 <sbp> though that seems somewhat suboptimal
09:21:05 <sbp> perhaps I could type all the code thingies implicitly somehow... hmm, probably not
09:21:34 <sbp> actually, no, I guess that's not too bad
09:21:39 <sbp> it's just like a list constructor
09:21:45 <sbp> I should probably call the constructor "list"
09:21:47 <sbp> (list 1 2 3)
09:21:57 <sbp> or List. whatever
09:23:03 <Talliesin> oh, someone somewhere will have strong feelings on whether it's list or List. I can guarantee that even though I have no idea what language you are talking about.
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09:23:49 <Monty> Thank goodness, pierpa is back!
09:23:54 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
09:24:04 <Monty> must drop the code is way that search for scheduled events really. otherwise you'd say "what is 'bad', in ie of magnitude or '==' for assignment, or something lisplike, e.g. "what time being' in either smart and 'a deepness in bed while drunk
09:24:22 <pierpa> hello Monty!
09:24:22 <Monty> How do you do. Please state your problem.
09:24:31 <pierpa> no problem, Monty
09:24:31 <Monty> You don't know how to wear farms...
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09:35:57 <sbp> Talliesin: chuckle, indeed!
09:56:35 <sbp> nearly there. it's giving the output twice for some reason
09:59:21 <sbp> ah, got it
09:59:58 <sbp> $ echo | plan3 --plan3=add.n3
09:59:59 <sbp> 185
09:59:59 <sbp> whoo!
10:03:55 <sbp> alright, let's try this:
10:03:56 <sbp> e:main main (
10:03:56 <sbp> (set i:output (join " " ("Hello" "world!")))
10:03:56 <sbp> (say i:output)
10:03:56 <sbp> ) .
10:04:06 <sbp> what does lisp use to set crap? set and setq?
10:04:32 <sbp> problem with set is that, um, a set constructor called that might be night
10:04:36 <sbp> ...nice
10:05:02 <sbp> (MAKEITSO ... ...)
10:05:20 <sbp> actually... there is = in N3
10:05:27 <sbp> being owl:sameAs
10:05:52 <sbp> problem is, really it doesn't mean that at all
10:06:12 <sbp> (= i:output (join " " ("Hello" "world!"))) is kinda nifty though
10:06:51 <sbp> of course that'd screw things up massively in Turtle
10:06:55 <sbp> hmm. so yeah, better not
10:06:58 *** SinDoc (n=skh@31.236-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #swhack
10:07:37 <sbp> oh, var works
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10:13:24 <Monty> lo Arnia
10:13:28 <sbp> oh! I can do the Pluvo namespacing disambiguation thing!
10:14:13 <Arnia> hm?
10:14:24 <sbp> Arnia: I'm porting Pluvo to N3/CWM
10:14:40 <sbp> (kinda. lots of changes are necessary of course)
10:14:56 <sbp> I have this simple example working:
10:14:56 <sbp> e:add doc "Two valued version of the builtin add function";
10:14:57 <sbp> def ((i:p i:q)
10:14:59 <sbp> (add i:p i:q)
10:15:01 <sbp> ) .
10:15:03 <sbp> e:main main (
10:15:05 <sbp> (say (e:add 35 150))
10:15:07 <sbp> ) .
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10:18:47 <sbp> I figured that Pluvo is _:useless in the regular programming language domain (because perl6 will kick its ass), and N3's log: facilities are _:useless in the RDF programming language domain (because they're declarative and oddly designed)
10:18:54 <sbp> so why not bring Pluvo into the RDF programming language domain?
10:19:00 <sbp> I call it: Plan3
10:19:10 <sbp> i.e. Pluvo and n3
10:19:33 <sbp> Arnia: how was the dinner? (was it last night, or still upcoming?)
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10:22:14 <Arnia> It was last night. I definitely upstaged everyone
10:22:23 <Arnia> People's reactions when I walked in were good
10:24:33 <sbp> excellent!
10:24:36 <sbp> did you enjoy it?
10:24:42 <sbp> was it thoroughly subverted?
10:24:48 <sbp> who was the second best subverter?
10:26:42 <sbp> alright, got this working:
10:26:43 <sbp> e:main main (
10:26:43 <sbp> (var i:output (join " " ("Hello" "world!")))
10:26:43 <sbp> (say i:output)
10:26:43 <sbp> ) .
10:30:32 <sbp> so, I should call main script instead
10:30:58 <sbp> then I can do:
10:30:59 <sbp> main script (
10:30:59 <sbp> (var output (join " " ("Hello" "world!")))
10:30:59 <sbp> (say output)
10:30:59 <sbp> ) .
10:31:02 <sbp> which is rulesome
10:32:26 <sbp> yep, that works. whoo!
10:36:06 <sbp> so, the disambiguation...
10:36:20 <sbp> I figure I'll have another namespace for unambiguous Plan3 builtins
10:37:36 <sbp> so for example this:
10:37:36 <sbp> #!/usr/bin/env pluvo
10:37:36 <sbp> say = (argv) {
10:37:36 <sbp> @say "Hello world!"
10:37:36 <sbp> }
10:37:38 <sbp> script say
10:37:42 <sbp> will become...
10:38:24 <sbp> say def (
10:38:24 <sbp> (p3:say "Hello world!")
10:38:25 <sbp> ) .
10:38:25 <sbp> main script ((say)) .
10:38:59 <xover> Ok, how did this happen? I'm actually finding myself liking that umbrella song by Rhianna. Did my brain rot from exposure to telcos?
10:39:10 <sbp> WHAT!
10:39:37 <sbp> it's the most annoying song since Agadoo
10:39:51 <xover> Lets hope I recover soon.
10:39:54 * sbp punishes xover by forcing him to listen to Agadoo for three minutes
10:40:04 <sbp> (the maximum that's ever been withstood is 53 seconds)
10:41:02 <sbp> so, now I have to check if there's a local definition before using a builtin
10:41:19 <sbp> ...somehow
10:41:36 <sbp> the question is now how to do it, but how Pluvo did it
10:41:47 <Arnia> hmm
10:41:50 <sbp> trying to follow as closely as possible, since most of the work is done there (and done properly)
10:41:57 <sbp> s/now how/not how/
10:43:09 <sbp> ah, looks like that's Interpreter.resolve's job in Pluvo
10:43:44 <sbp> which passes the buck to lookup
10:44:14 <sbp> oh, I forgot about % for the standard library
10:44:21 <sbp> I can probably just internalise that
10:44:47 <sbp> or, actually... I might've already internalised it in Pluvo
10:44:55 <sbp> looks like the % is just in an old comment which didn't get updated
10:45:58 <sbp> ah, problem is, I'm treating the root context differently
10:46:04 <sbp> because in Plan3 it's not a list
10:46:14 <sbp> so that's one difference
10:52:34 <sbp> oh, whoops, no argspec
10:54:43 <sbp> $ echo | plan3 --plan3=say.n3
10:54:43 <sbp> Hello world!
10:54:44 <sbp> yay
10:55:27 <sbp> ah, quoted arguments
10:55:28 <sbp> def chain ({first} {second}) { say first; say second }
10:55:28 <sbp> def date () { say "Date:"; return "2006-05-13" }
10:55:28 <sbp> def time () { say "Time:"; return "11:31 AM" }
10:55:28 <sbp> date chain time
10:55:31 <sbp> hmm
10:56:36 <sbp> might need to do something irritating like:
10:56:37 <sbp> chain def (((block first) (block second))
10:56:37 <sbp> (say first)
10:56:37 <sbp> (say second)
10:56:37 <sbp> ) .
10:56:45 <sbp> or! could use q for that
10:56:50 <sbp> code?
10:58:13 <sbp> oh, no coördination (yet) in Plan3 by the way
10:58:23 <sbp> so that last statement will be:
10:58:33 <sbp> main script ((chain date time)) .
10:58:56 <sbp> the outer scope is special too, of course, because there are no lists there
10:59:13 <sbp> so it's unordered, hence the need for a single script-predicate-having statement
11:02:13 <sbp> oh wait, what I really mean is list
11:02:48 <sbp> so
11:02:48 <sbp> chain def (((list a) (list b))
11:02:48 <sbp> (say a)
11:02:48 <sbp> (say b)
11:02:48 <sbp> ) .
11:03:46 <sbp> expected output is...
11:03:46 <sbp> Date:
11:03:46 <sbp> 2006-05-13
11:03:47 <sbp> Time:
11:03:47 <sbp> 11:31 AM
11:10:25 <sbp> some delay as I try to figure out where the arse this is implemented in Pluvo...
11:12:13 <sbp> in Interpreter.evaluate it has to cope with it, but doesn't act upon it...
11:13:06 <sbp> oh, probably in perform:
11:13:06 <sbp> # Automatically run block arguments to Pluvo functions
11:13:06 <sbp> # @@ Unless the arg is {escaped} in the argspec
11:13:27 <sbp> yes
11:18:52 <sbp> damn, that approach won't work in Plan3
11:19:27 <sbp> because I was having to set it in evaluate, but perform needs it *before* it reaches evaluate
11:19:41 <sbp> because the definitions aren't read from the root formula, like they are in Pluvo
11:19:49 <sbp> in Pluvo, the argspecs are set then
11:20:04 <sbp> oh, well, I can still do that in Plan3
11:20:28 <sbp> it means I have to read all the functions, but oh well
11:22:00 <sbp> yeah, there we go
11:25:25 <sbp> $ echo | plan3 --plan3=chain.n3
11:25:25 <sbp> date
11:25:25 <sbp> time
11:25:28 <sbp> kinda getting there
11:25:48 <sbp> just need to modify say now, I think
11:27:16 <sbp> not entirely sure I want that behaviour from say, actually...
11:32:30 <sbp> ah, this makes more sense:
11:32:30 <sbp> $ echo | plan3 --plan3=chain2.n3
11:32:31 <sbp> Date:
11:32:31 <sbp> 2007-10-25
11:32:31 <sbp> Time:
11:32:31 <sbp> 12:25 PM
11:32:39 <sbp> chain def (((list a) (list b))
11:32:39 <sbp> (say (a))
11:32:39 <sbp> (say (b))
11:32:43 <sbp> ) .
11:37:01 <sbp> okay, first five Pluvo tests now work in Plan3
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12:05:04 <sbp> next step, try to get it to dump the program
12:14:12 <sbp> awesome! it worked!
12:14:28 <sbp> ooh, it's a freaky quine
12:14:59 <sbp> the code is kinda messy for this:
12:14:59 <sbp> def dump(self, args):
12:15:00 <sbp> name = str(args[0])
12:15:00 <sbp> context = getattr(self, name)
12:15:00 <sbp> context.stayOpen = 0
12:15:01 <sbp> context = context.close()
12:15:03 <sbp> assert context.canonical != None
12:15:05 <sbp> self.info.get("_store").dumpNested(context, self.info.get("_outSink"))
12:15:16 <sbp> but... awesome
12:15:27 <sbp> also I'm not sure how to address cwm internal contexts
12:15:35 <sbp> there's the working context and the program's context
12:15:45 <sbp> and at the moment to dump them you haev to do either of these:
12:15:48 <sbp> (dump "working")
12:15:53 <sbp> (dump "program")
12:16:19 <sbp> what I'm kinda doing is giving an alternative to the cwm command line
12:16:29 <sbp> when you go into --plan3 mode, it shuts cwm up
12:16:36 <sbp> so perhaps I should emulate it a bit closer
12:16:44 <sbp> and print out the working context by default
12:16:56 <sbp> and then let the user either set it to the program's context, or shut it up entirely like it's doing now
12:18:31 <MoiraA> lo sbp
12:19:33 <sbp> yo MoiraA
12:20:08 <MoiraA> home from hospital - on crutches :(
12:20:17 <sbp> oh dear, what happened?
12:22:18 <MoiraA> oh didn't I say? went in to have my right achilles tendon sewn back together
12:22:32 <MoiraA> it needed muscle grafting because of the time delay etc
12:22:33 <sbp> yeah, but you had the operation ages ago right?
12:22:46 <MoiraA> 3rd October
12:22:59 <sbp> I was wondering why you're on crutches now but weren't after the op
12:23:00 <MoiraA> lol, I wish it was as simple as that!
12:23:17 <MoiraA> I was after the op
12:23:28 <sbp> ah. so you were expecting to be off them now?
12:23:40 <MoiraA> I must have given the wrong impression - no, I'll be on crutches for 3 months
12:23:52 <sbp> ahh, so it was just a general grumble!
12:23:58 <sbp> sorry, sloow me
12:24:28 <MoiraA> first 6 weeks, with a non weight bearing plaster - yeah, just a grumble and a hello since I didn't think I'd been alive in here since I got back
12:25:05 <sbp> oh! so you didn't go back to hosptial today?
12:25:06 <MoiraA> but maybe I have, then it's sorry sloow me not you!
12:25:10 <sbp> you just forgot that you'd been in here since?
12:25:21 <MoiraA> lol probably
12:25:24 <sbp> hehe
12:25:28 <Arnia> Should I be algebraic and redescribe my categorisation of RDF in terms of an initial algebra, or should I leave it equational?
12:25:33 * Arnia shrugs
12:25:50 <sbp> Arnia: redescribe as in "describe in these terms as well"?
12:26:02 <MoiraA> anyway, I'll leave you for now, going to reinstall mirc on a different hard drive to see if it improves with vista
12:26:11 <sbp> MoiraA: m'kay. enjoy!
12:26:12 <Arnia> Compromise; use the theory of sketches in its own section. WOO!
12:26:33 <sbp> I'm lost
12:26:58 <sbp> you're now faced with that other age-old dilemma
12:27:11 <sbp> explain what you're doing to a dimwit, or get no feedback at all :-)
12:27:29 <Arnia> "hello joe...found your site whilst searching for images of
12:27:29 <Arnia> trifles...something i don't do enough...
12:27:30 <Arnia> could not stop thinking about them over the weekend and have had two ladies promise me them and have promised to marry the first one who delivers..."
12:27:41 <sbp> ...
12:27:41 <Arnia> strange email
12:27:53 <sbp> that's awesome
12:28:05 <Arnia> It continues
12:28:09 <Arnia> "i teach graphic design and so found your website of interest...maybe there
12:28:09 <Arnia> is a link between design and trifles...keep up the good work...bye...mike
12:28:10 <Arnia> trifle"
12:28:18 <sbp> wow, it has an aftertaste too. it gets more awesome the more you think about it
12:28:35 * Arnia waves to Mike
12:30:12 <Arnia> Was a strange thing to be sent, but quite interesting at the same time
12:30:18 <sbp> yes indeed
12:30:31 <sbp> it's nice to hear from the triflephiliacs of the world
12:30:50 <sbp> triflephiles?
12:30:59 <sbp> w'v'r
12:31:12 <Arnia> ooh, my trousers are done
12:31:17 <sbp> ooh
12:31:19 * Arnia gets them out of the oven
12:31:50 <sbp> <3
12:32:09 <sbp> alright, now I need to figure out how to do simple query
12:32:15 <sbp> it'd be nice to have a print __doc__-a-like
12:32:15 <Arnia> I'm >3 personally... fast approaching 25 in fact
12:32:25 <sbp> NO YUO
12:32:28 * Arnia sets up a Cauchy sequence
12:32:29 <sbp> oh right. that's what you said
12:32:56 * Arnia whispers concatenative things to sbp
12:33:10 * sbp delves into cwm's scary query.py
12:33:18 <sbp> mmm... concatenation
12:33:26 <sbp> that reminds me, I will need some kind of concatenation op
12:33:27 <Arnia> Finally got all my make up off
12:33:31 <sbp> I thought of doing ... hehe
12:33:45 <Arnia> Eyes sting a bit
12:33:49 <sbp> I thought of doing a coördination cheat: have strings be functions...
12:34:00 <Arnia> strings are functions
12:34:07 <sbp> there you go then
12:34:08 <Arnia> Constant functions
12:34:20 <sbp> well, a function that takes args
12:35:08 <Arnia> They are... a constant can be regarded as an arrow from 1 -> A where A is the type of the constant
12:35:18 <Arnia> ahem
12:35:35 <Arnia> STOP USING CATEGORY THEORY TO BALANCE YOUR CHEQUEBOOK ON THE END OF YOUR NOSE. STOP.
12:36:38 <sbp> [[[
12:36:39 <sbp> self.template = antecedent
12:36:39 <sbp> self.conclusion = consequent
12:36:44 <sbp> ]]] - query.py
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12:36:55 <sbp> (because it isn't complicated enough?)
12:37:52 <sbp> [[[
12:37:53 <sbp> unmatched=[], # Tuple of interned quads we are trying to match CORRUPTED
12:37:53 <sbp> template = None, # Actually, must have one
12:37:53 <sbp> variables=Set(), # List of variables to match and return CORRUPTED
12:37:55 <sbp> ]]] - ibid.
12:37:57 <sbp> CORRUPTED
12:39:48 <sbp> wow, this is super-confusaring shit
12:40:57 <sbp> dang, I've got to interface this at some point
12:41:47 <sbp> query.Query seems the "obvious" entry point
12:42:55 * clsn started drawing Devanagari for Marin last night.
12:43:29 <sbp> hmm. n3Equivalent looks sorta handy
12:43:36 <sbp> clsn: what's the size of the coverage now?
12:43:41 <clsn> Lemme see...
12:45:18 <clsn> Looks like 3118 glyphs.
12:46:25 <clsn> And I've been drawing some of the Miscellaneous Symbols and Dingbats and stuff...
12:47:07 <sbp> not bad
12:47:29 <sbp> don't forget to do U+32E1
12:47:41 <clsn> Bet it'll be really fun figuring out how the hell to get Devanagari support working properly, with conjunct consonants and all...
12:48:07 <sbp> ...conjunct consonants?
12:48:09 <clsn> I wasn't going to do any CJK support.
12:48:25 <sbp> well you only need that one, really
12:48:33 <sbp> it's the best character in CJK
12:48:53 <clsn> Um, 'k, you know anything about the Devanagari alphabet? Thing is, the letters stand for consonants, and vowels, unless standalone or word-initial, are diacritics.
12:49:03 <clsn> What's so great about CIRCLED TU?
12:49:35 <clsn> So far, not exciting, I know. But the diacritic for short-a is NOTHING. Just put the letters next to each other. Ah, so how do you indicate no vowel?
12:50:11 <clsn> There's a "vowel-killer" diacritic which is occasionally used (generally when other methods are too hairy) but usually it's done by crunching the consonants together.
12:50:35 <clsn> You sort of squish them together, removing some bits, etc... different ones combine in different ways of course.
12:51:08 <clsn> Sometimes as simple as just leaving out the right half of the letter, sometimes they stack up on top of each other, and sometimes the forms are idiosyncratic.
12:51:24 <clsn> Oh, cuz it looks like a smiley?
13:03:36 <sbp> yep!
13:04:14 <sbp> consonant crunching: ah, I see
13:04:32 <sbp> so crunch = consonant, normal = short-a, and diacritic = other vowel
13:04:33 <clsn> And attaching the diacritics isn't easy just by itself...
13:04:41 <clsn> Yeah, pretty much.
13:05:06 <clsn> I'm simplifying. And some of the diacritics are character-sized.
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13:10:21 <sbp> ah! woah, I got a simple query working
13:10:37 <sbp> $ echo | plan3 --plan3=query.n3
13:10:38 <sbp> [{query.n3 doc s}]
13:10:38 <sbp> set([_g_L6C14, s])
13:10:38 <sbp> set([s])
13:10:38 <sbp> [Env({s: ("quer...Test", Env({}))})]
13:11:18 <sbp> so I need like select ?s from { <> doc ?s }
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13:14:55 <sbp> oh dear
13:14:57 <sbp> Bad syntax (Can't use ?xxx syntax for variable in outermost level: ?s) at ^ in:
13:14:57 <sbp> "...e <http://inamidst.com/sbp/> ] .
13:14:57 <sbp> main script (
13:14:57 <sbp> (select ?^s from { <> doc ?s })
13:14:58 <sbp> ) .
13:15:51 <sbp> trying this:
13:15:52 <sbp> @forAll s.
13:15:52 <sbp> main script (
13:15:52 <sbp> (select s from { <> doc s })
13:15:52 <sbp> ) .
13:15:53 <supybot> sbp: Error: "forAll" is not a valid command.
13:15:57 <sbp> cram
13:16:13 <Arnia> scram?
13:16:24 * Arnia scrams the reactor and pegs it
13:18:09 <sbp> ooh, it works
13:18:17 <sbp> $ echo | plan3 --plan3=select.n3
13:18:17 <sbp> [{select.n3 doc s}]
13:18:17 <sbp> set([_g_L6C14, s])
13:18:17 <sbp> set([s])
13:18:17 <sbp> select.n3 - Query Select Test
13:18:30 <sbp> well that's annoying. I wanna use ?s!
13:20:17 <sbp> hmm, maybe I can patch it...
13:22:08 <sbp> er, really I mean where, I guess
13:22:13 <sbp> select ?s where { }...
13:22:31 <sbp> it'd be select ?s from $program where { ... } in longhand
13:22:43 <sbp> working store should probably be default
13:23:17 <sbp> (working context, even. a store is a different thing in CWM)
13:25:18 <sbp> ...no, that didn't work
13:26:59 <sbp> ah! got it! muahaha
13:39:24 <sbp> [[[
13:39:25 <sbp> <> doc "select2.n3 - Query Select Test";
13:39:25 <sbp> dc:author [ foaf:homepage <http://inamidst.com/sbp/> ] .
13:39:25 <sbp> main script (
13:39:25 <sbp> (var docs (select ?s from { <> doc ?s }))
13:39:25 <sbp> (say (first docs))
13:39:27 <sbp> ) .
13:39:31 <sbp> ]]]
13:39:35 <sbp> $ echo | plan3 --plan3=select2.n3
13:39:37 <sbp> select2.n3 - Query Select Test
13:40:14 <sbp> changing that to:
13:40:14 <sbp> main script (
13:40:14 <sbp> (var docs (select ?s from "program" where { <> doc ?s }))
13:40:15 <sbp> (say (first docs))
13:40:15 <sbp> ) .
13:40:35 <sbp> or, perhaps program will be better
13:41:24 <sbp> hmm... or :this... :-)
13:42:41 <xover> That looks like the bastard love child of N3 and Lisp.
13:42:58 <sbp> no, no
13:43:08 <sbp> it's the bastard love child of N3 and Pluvo
13:43:13 <sbp> lisp merely helped out in the bedroom
13:43:22 <xover> I'd have gone with “failed abortion of…”, but figured I'd be polite.
13:43:31 <sbp> no need, it is hideous
13:44:48 <sbp> whee, the new version works
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13:47:49 <sbp> shame that somelist.0.5 won't work for slicing
13:48:29 <sbp> somelist.slice(0 5) I suppose would work. hmm
13:49:28 <sbp> ah, no, it'd think (0 5) is a predicate
13:49:35 <sbp> somelist.slice.(0 5) would though
13:50:05 <sbp> cwm seems to barf on it
13:50:08 <sbp> $ echo '@keywords a . somelist.slice.(0 5) a Test .' | plan3
13:50:11 <sbp> [...]
13:50:16 <sbp> @prefix : <#> .
13:50:16 <sbp>
13:50:16 <sbp> :somelist :slice [
13:50:16 <sbp> <.run-1193321296.192508p16687#li2> [
13:50:16 <sbp> a :Test ] ] .
13:50:28 <sbp> lists as predicates... probably a bad idea anyway
13:50:36 <bjoern_> My pillow?
13:50:43 <sbp> My pillow?!
13:50:54 <bjoern_> .title http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-23-Watchlist_N.htm
13:50:57 <phenny> bjoern_: Terror watch list swells to more than 755,000 - USATODAY.com
13:51:32 <sbp> (somelist (0 5)) would work
13:51:44 <sbp> and (somelist 0 5) for that matter
13:51:53 <sbp> that's only one char more than in python
13:52:34 <sbp> now I have three kinds of lists...
13:52:42 <sbp> (regular stuff) which is used as code
13:52:49 <sbp> (list quoted) which is like '(...) in lisp
13:53:01 <sbp> and [...] which are python lists returned from functions
13:53:20 <sbp> need to make that more consistent, really
13:54:48 <bjoern_> "Two candidates in Sunday's regional elections in Colombia have been killed, bringing the total of candidates killed during the campaign to at least 21. " - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7060278.stm
13:55:30 <xover> Politics are hazardous to your health.
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14:05:38 <sbp> main script (
14:05:38 <sbp> (var letters (list "p" "q" "r" "s" "t"))
14:05:38 <sbp> (say (letters 1))
14:05:38 <sbp> ) .
14:05:44 <sbp> $ echo | plan3 --plan3=index.n3
14:05:46 <sbp> q
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14:18:43 <sbp> trying this:
14:18:43 <sbp> main script (
14:18:43 <sbp> (say "<ul>")
14:18:44 <sbp> (for friend in (select ?friend where { [ u:friend ?friend ] })
14:18:44 <sbp> (say ("<li>" friend "</li>")))
14:18:44 <sbp> (say "</ul>")
14:18:45 <sbp> ) .
14:18:57 <sbp> gotta implement for and string concatenation
14:20:04 <sbp> $ echo '@prefix : <friends.n3#> . :John :friend "Bill", "Ben" .' | plan3 --plan3=friends.n3
14:22:26 <bjoern_> .weather edfm
14:22:30 <phenny> Cloudy, 11℃, 1021mb, Gentle breeze 15km/h (8kt) (↑) - EDFM 16:20, 1420Z
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14:36:00 <xover> .title http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/23/apple-itunes-offers-led-zeppelin-digital-box-set/
14:36:03 <phenny> xover: Mac Rumors: Apple iTunes Offers Led Zeppelin Digital Box Set
14:39:19 <xover> .wik Dramedy
14:39:22 <phenny> "Comedy-drama, also called dramedy, is a style of television and movies in which there is an equal, or nearly equal balance of humor and serious content." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramedy
14:45:56 <kpreid> [[[
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14:46:16 <kpreid> I’m not crazy about motorsport. I like it more than any other sport, but for me, that’s faint praise.
14:46:19 <kpreid> Part of my affection is devoted to the peculiar jargon of the motorsport commentator.
14:46:23 <kpreid> I don’t mean just the really good commentators, here. I’ll take a Walkerism or Brundlequote if I can get one, but even the God-awful everyday commentators here in Australia (who have a particular affection for the word “carnage”, possibly because they think the first three letters mean it’s particularly applicable to automobiles) have a collection of diverting stock phrases.
14:46:29 <kpreid> ]]] -- http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2007/10/25/i-reached-into-my-bag-of-talent-and-found-it-to-be-empty/
14:46:51 <kpreid> 'It is, for instance, important not only to “keep it on the black stuff”, but also to “keep the shiny side up”, and by extension the “rubber side down”.'
14:46:57 <kpreid> -- ibid
14:47:11 <kpreid> 'One must attempt to not “spear off into the bushes”.'
14:47:12 <clsn> Wow. phishing mail claiming to be from Bank of America says my account is locked due to too many login attempts on 15/10/2007.
14:47:22 <clsn> Why would an American bank write "15/10/2007"?
14:47:25 <kpreid> 'A brake failure, patch of oil or excursion onto wet grass is likely to cause one to “proceed directly to the scene of the accident”.'
14:47:39 <clsn> Oh I like that last one.
14:47:47 <kpreid> '(That’s a bit too highbrow for the Aussie commentators, as is the delightful Rolls-Royce euphemism for a breakdown, “failure to proceed”. I’ve also previously mentioned “understeering directly to the scene of the accident” in my Prius post.)'
14:47:59 <kpreid> 'A transmission failure can give you “a box full of neutrals”.'
14:48:17 <kpreid> '“Talent” is generally regarded as a fungible commodity; expressions involving the transfer, location, misplacement or storage (typically in a “bag”) of varible quantities of talent may be employed by a driver or rider to explain virtually any occurrence on the track.'
14:48:36 <kpreid> 'If you rip all four wheels off an open-wheeled racing car, you have “turned it into a canoe”.'
14:48:43 <kpreid> and, finally:
14:48:46 <kpreid> 'There’s also the verb “to alligate”, which arises from the description of a line of nose-to-tail racing cars as “an alligator”. It naturally follows that what they are doing is alligating, just as oysters oyst, tigers tige and lemurs leme.'
14:51:27 <MoiraA> http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN247838820071024?feedType=RSS&feedName=oddlyEnoughNews
14:51:32 <MoiraA> very strange indeed
14:51:58 <sbp> $ echo '@prefix : <friends.n3#> . :John :friend "Bill", "Ben" .' | plan3 --plan3=friends.n3
14:51:58 <sbp> <ul>
14:51:58 <sbp> <li>Ben</li>
14:51:58 <sbp> <li>Bill</li>
14:51:58 <sbp> </ul>
14:52:15 <clsn> "Alligator" is used as a verb in Esperanto slang.
14:52:36 <clsn> it means "to speak in non-Esperanto under circumstances where speaking Esperanto would be more appropriate."
14:52:50 <thelsdj> .title http://polyscience.org/2005/09/cymothoa-exigua/
14:52:56 <phenny> thelsdj: polyscience.org » The replacement tongue
14:55:17 <sbp> hmm, instead of:
14:55:18 <sbp> (for name in (select ?name where { ?f u:friend ?name })
14:55:18 <sbp> (say ("<li>" name "</li>")))
14:55:32 <sbp> this'd probably work:
14:55:33 <sbp> (select ?name where { ?f u:friend ?name })
14:55:33 <sbp> (say ("<li>" ?name "</li>"))
14:55:45 <clsn> thelsdj: what's particularly gross is that it actually isn't a bad idea for designing a genetically-engineered tongue prosthesis.
14:56:22 <thelsdj> right
14:57:17 <sbp> $ echo '@prefix : <friends.n3#> . :John :friend "Bill", "Ben" .' | plan3 --plan3=friends2.n3
14:57:18 <sbp> <ul>
14:57:18 <sbp> <li>name</li>
14:57:18 <sbp> </ul>
14:57:19 <sbp> - hehe
14:57:28 <clsn> Oops, actually, my mis-remember. It's "to crocodile" that means that in Esperanto.
14:57:57 <clsn> Though there have been extensions and specifications, with people claiming particular submeanings for verbs like "alligator" and "caiman."
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15:01:08 <sbp> $ echo '@prefix : <friends.n3#> . :John :friend "Bill", "Ben" .' | plan3 --plan3=friends2.n3
15:01:09 <sbp> <ul>
15:01:09 <sbp> <li>Ben</li>
15:01:09 <sbp> <li>Bill</li>
15:01:09 <sbp> </ul>
15:01:11 <sbp> excellent
15:01:16 <sbp> corrected syntax is:
15:01:17 <sbp> (say "<ul>")
15:01:19 <sbp> (select ?name where { ?f u:friend ?name }
15:01:21 <sbp> (say ("<li>" ?name "</li>")))
15:01:23 <sbp> (say "</ul>")
15:01:45 <bjoern_> .title http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2198227,00.html
15:01:50 <phenny> bjoern_: Revealed: the little-known device used to block Democrats in the House | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
15:02:13 <bjoern_> they haz a bugz in thier demokrazy zimulashion
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15:12:57 <sbp> hmm, I really should make a better dump function
15:13:01 <sbp> I don't think I'll have it be default
15:13:47 <sbp> could call it output, I suppose
15:13:54 <sbp> (output) - dump the working context
15:14:02 <sbp> (output program) - dump the program context
15:14:10 <sbp> (output f) - dump some formula
15:17:01 <bjoern_> teh noes! sbp has gone lisp!
15:17:11 <sbp> NO. PLUVO
15:17:32 <thelsdj> PLUVO IS LISP!?!?
15:17:35 <bjoern_> teh noes! pluvo has gone lisp!
15:17:43 <sbp> 15:01 <xover> That looks like the bastard love child of N3 and Lisp.
15:17:44 <sbp> 15:01 <sbp> no, no
15:17:46 <sbp> 15:01 <sbp> it's the bastard love child of N3 and Pluvo
15:17:48 <sbp> 15:01 <sbp> lisp merely helped out in the bedroom
15:17:50 <sbp> 15:01 <xover> I'd have gone with “failed abortion of…”, but figured I'd be polite.
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15:25:54 <bjoern_> .gc repositorty
15:25:58 <phenny> repositorty: 412
15:26:03 <bjoern_> .g repositorty
15:26:06 <phenny> bjoern_: http://osdir.com/ml/cms.xaraya.bugs/2003-10/msg00248.html
15:26:15 <bjoern_> at least I'm not on #1 ...
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15:27:47 <sr> hey! plan3 looks great
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15:27:56 <sbp> yo! thanks
15:28:05 <sbp> certainly easier to use than log: in many cases
15:28:20 <sbp> I'm currently figuring out how to port the dbslurp script
15:28:27 <sr> dbslurp?
15:28:34 <sbp> er, dbpedia-slurp even
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15:28:46 <sbp> it finds all dbpedia terms and downloads the graphs of them
15:28:49 <sbp> so far I've jotted:
15:28:50 <sbp> (for triple in triples
15:28:50 <sbp> (for term in triple
15:28:50 <sbp> (if (term.start "http://dbpedia.org/resource/")
15:28:50 <sbp> (yield term))))
15:28:50 <sbp>
15:29:34 <sr> hey wtf? looks like it's lisp now, not plan3
15:29:55 <sbp> NO. PLVUO
15:29:58 <sbp> hehe
15:30:13 <sbp> using lists is the only way you can do a linear syntax in n3
15:30:30 <sr> so, you already have an implementation?!
15:30:37 <sbp> Pluvo has Tables, recall, which are superclasses of lists
15:30:42 <sbp> yeah, wrote it this morning and afternoon
15:31:06 <thelsdj> maybe he has a super secret build of Arc
15:31:09 <sbp> in Pluvo, { and } are the Table delimiters
15:31:10 <sr> wow, that was quick
15:31:21 <sbp> but it uses Python block syntax to put in fake delimiters
15:31:32 <sbp> so it looks not much like lisp, though in a way it is under the covers
15:31:41 <sbp> with N3, there's just no way to disguise it
15:31:51 <sbp> sr: yeah, well I just followed the Pluvo code as much as possible
15:31:59 <sbp> most of the rest was figuring out the rather wacky CWM API
15:32:18 <sr> how is plan3 implemented? using pluvo? cwm hack?
15:32:22 <sbp> I also had to invent some things that aren't in Pluvo, of course
15:33:10 <sbp> I'm really hoping they'll bundle this with cwm
15:33:22 <sbp> it's basically just a module in swap/
15:33:40 <sbp> so I had to modify cwm.py to create a new mode, --plan3
15:33:44 <sr> so, is plan3 the new cwm's log+string ?
15:33:54 <sbp> yes
15:34:04 <sbp> then you think about it, what log: is is a programming language
15:34:18 <sbp> a declarative programming language with a few defined functions in the log: and nearby (string: etc.) namespaces
15:34:33 <sr> I know almost nothing about how cwm works so...
15:34:34 <sbp> the --think mode in cwm executes that language
15:34:36 <sbp> ah
15:34:47 <sbp> s/then you think/when you think/
15:34:54 <sbp> but anyway, yeah
15:35:05 <sbp> I gave an example just a little while ago of doing templating with plan3
15:35:07 <sr> I almost don't understand anything about what you're saying except that plan3 looks cool
15:35:10 <sbp> that's definitely on my mind :-)
15:35:14 <sbp> chuckle. fair enough
15:35:27 <sr> s/cool/awesome I should say
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15:41:19 <sbp> possibly better:
15:41:20 <sbp> (select ?s ?p ?o where { ?s ?p ?o }
15:41:20 <sbp> ((if (?s.start "http://dbpedia.org/resource/")
15:41:20 <sbp> (push ?s resources))
15:41:20 <sbp> (if (?p.start "http://dbpedia.org/resource/")
15:41:21 <sbp> (push ?p resources))
15:41:22 <sbp> (if (?o.start "http://dbpedia.org/resource/")
15:41:25 <sbp> (push ?o resources))))
15:41:31 <sbp> or...
15:43:52 <sbp> (select ?s ?p ?o where { ?s ?p ?o }
15:43:52 <sbp> (for t in (list ?s ?p ?o)
15:43:52 <sbp> (if (t.start "http://dbpedia.org/resource/")
15:43:52 <sbp> (push t resources))))
15:43:59 <sbp> there, I like that
15:44:10 <sbp> compact, but very close to existing implemented things
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15:46:23 <bjoern_> .title http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN2450753720071024
15:46:37 <phenny> bjoern_: U.S. CBO estimates $2.4 trillion long-term war costs | U.S. | Reuters
15:47:54 <bjoern_> "CANBERRA (Reuters) - An Australian barmaid has been fined for crushing beer cans between her bare breasts while an off-duty colleague has been fined for hanging spoons from her friend's nipples, police said Wednesday." - http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN247838820071024
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15:54:37 <Talliesin> It's illegal to expose breasts at all in licensed premises in AU?
15:54:54 <Talliesin> In Ireland female nipples aren't allowed, but the rest of the breast is okay.
15:55:10 <Talliesin> Genitals are out also.
15:55:19 <Talliesin> It's a nuisance really.
15:55:21 <sbp> by which you mean they're in? :-)
15:55:26 <Talliesin> Exactly.
15:56:57 <Talliesin> We have to ban them in the dress code for our club for that reason, though we'd rather not.
15:57:15 <sbp> female nippes, or genitals, or both?
15:57:21 <sbp> nippés
15:57:29 <sbp> nîppes
15:58:03 <xover> Bòóbs!
15:58:09 <sbp> FLOMG
15:58:23 * bjoern_ takes it Nippes is "bibelot", "knickknack", "knickknackery", "knick-knack"
15:59:28 <danja> hanging spoons from them sounds fun
15:59:43 <danja> good pub game, in fact
16:00:06 <Talliesin> All of them, since it's a licensed venue.
16:00:40 <sbp> all of them? are there other things I don't know about?
16:01:01 <xover> Elbows!
16:01:05 <sbp> ooh
16:01:10 <Talliesin> All of those stated above.
16:01:17 <sbp> oh
16:01:20 <sbp> mildly disappointing
16:01:42 <bjoern_> how about shiny metal asses?
16:01:46 <sbp> <Ralph> Help! She's touching my special area!
16:02:15 <xover> .swhack TSA.*doll.*touch
16:02:53 <xover> Hmm. Actually the first two are probably the other way around.
16:03:07 <phenny> xover: No results for "TSA.*doll.*touch".
16:03:31 <kpreid> .cp ㎒
16:03:33 <sbp> .swhack doll.*TSA.*touch
16:03:35 <kpreid> .pc ㎒
16:03:40 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for '㎒'.
16:03:41 <phenny> 3392: SQUARE MHZ (㎒)
16:04:13 <bjoern_> Today is XPs sixth birthday.
16:04:26 <thelsdj> .swhack shit\w+rude
16:04:28 <phenny> sbp: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-10-22#T07-25-07
16:05:23 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "dbslurp.n3" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/49812
16:05:30 <phenny> thelsdj: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-10-12#T08-43-36
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16:07:44 <thelsdj> .swhack rude\w+shit
16:07:57 <xover> .g swhack rude shit
16:08:00 <phenny> xover: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-10-02
16:08:10 <xover> .gc "swhack rude shit"
16:08:13 <phenny> "swhack rude shit": 0
16:08:19 <xover> .gc "swhackrude shit"
16:08:22 <phenny> "swhackrude shit": 0
16:08:26 <xover> .gc swhackrude shit
16:08:29 <phenny> swhackrude shit: 0
16:08:30 <xover> .gc swhackrude
16:08:33 <phenny> swhackrude: 0
16:08:36 <phenny> thelsdj: No results for "rude\w+shit".
16:08:54 <sbp> .gc shitrude
16:08:57 <phenny> shitrude: 56
16:09:01 <sbp> going down!
16:09:14 *** xover changed the topic to: "Not just rude, not just shitrude; Swhackrude!"
16:09:17 *** pauld has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:09:21 <sbp> YEAH MANG
16:09:42 <sbp> okay, implementing path syntax for accessorszing
16:12:12 <sbp> eh, maybe I should fuck the dot for a moment
16:13:10 <bjoern_> have fun!
16:13:19 *** tav (n=tav@81.168.42.39) has joined #swhack
16:13:39 <xover> .gc "fuck the dot"
16:13:42 <phenny> "fuck the dot": 6,190
16:13:58 <xover> There's Porn Of It. No Exceptions!
16:14:05 <xover> .wik "There's Porn Of It. No Exceptions!"
16:14:09 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for ""There's Porn Of It. No Exceptions!"".
16:14:12 <xover> .g "There's Porn Of It. No Exceptions!"
16:14:16 <phenny> xover: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rule+34
16:14:48 <xover> .wik Rule 34
16:14:50 <phenny> "User page" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aerobird/Rule_34_Userbox
16:14:57 <thelsdj> .gc "fuck the dot com"
16:14:58 <phenny> "fuck the dot com": 4
16:15:29 <xover> .title fuck-the-dot.com
16:15:30 <phenny> Can't connect to fuck-the-dot.com
16:15:34 <xover> .title fuckthedot.com
16:15:37 <phenny> Can't connect to fuckthedot.com
16:16:13 <sr> huum, I 18:02 <+michel_v> sur "ça a l'air d'être court et toujours de la même taille"
16:16:20 <sr> ooops
16:16:34 <thelsdj> .title fuckthe.com
16:16:36 <phenny> Can't connect to fuckthe.com
16:17:00 <bjoern_> phenny, "ça a l'air d'être court et toujours de la même taille"?
16:17:05 <phenny> bjoern_: "that seems to be short and always of the same size" (fr)
16:17:32 <bjoern_> you people know you have to specify the scheme://
16:17:51 <thelsdj> .title http://fuckthe.com
16:17:56 <phenny> thelsdj: fuckthe.com
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16:29:46 *** bear42 is now known as bear
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16:36:08 <bjoern_> [[[
16:36:08 <bjoern_> Inside the Blackwater camp, a crisp American flag is carefully raised
16:36:08 <bjoern_> and lowered each day in Baghdad’s dusty heat. In the closely stacked
16:36:08 <bjoern_> gray metal trailers that serve as living quarters, employees have
16:36:08 <bjoern_> 8-by-12-foot rooms and shared bathrooms. Recreation time is limited, and
16:36:08 <bjoern_> the employees eat among themselves. Many of the younger guards sunbathe
16:36:10 <bjoern_> on their trailer roofs — a few regularly did so in the nude, until
16:36:12 <bjoern_> female helicopter pilots flew overhead, saw them and complained.
16:36:14 <bjoern_> ]]] - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/25/world/middleeast/25blackwater.html
16:42:28 *** JibberJim (n=none@satiss024.claranet.co.uk) has joined #swhack
16:56:01 <danja> cool: http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/10/24/worlds-worst-email-app-gets-worse-aircraft-simulation-meets-inbox/
17:08:37 <xover> .title youtube.com
17:08:40 <phenny> Can't connect to youtube.com
17:08:51 <xover> OH NOES!
17:11:20 <sbp> SCHEME
17:14:14 <bjoern_> i call it a bugz
17:14:39 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7061475.stm
17:14:44 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Sex lessons for 'cranky' miners
17:15:02 <perigrin> isn't sex with miners illegal?
17:15:13 <bjoern_> .title http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1675348,00.html
17:15:18 <phenny> bjoern_: Prostitutes Strike in Bolivia - TIME
17:15:21 <perigrin> "the menopause"?
17:15:46 <sbp> cf. the Iraq
17:15:48 <sbp> such as
17:16:44 <perigrin> yes but this is the BBC ... did they hire Miss Teen SC as an Australian Correspondent?
17:22:35 <sbp> nope, it's standard English
17:22:40 <sbp> cf. The Gambia and so on
17:22:45 <perigrin> Ahh
17:22:54 <perigrin> such as
17:23:00 <bjoern_> LOL
17:23:03 <bjoern_> "the BBC"
17:23:38 <perigrin> the England such as
17:24:04 <bjoern_> .gc Queendom
17:24:06 <phenny> Queendom: 231,000
17:24:36 <perigrin> ruled by King Freddie?
17:24:50 <perigrin> actually I suppose that would still be Queen Freddie.
17:25:15 <bjoern_> Queen Dumbledore.
17:26:00 <perigrin> hmm they need to make Dumbledore for Queen t-shirts now
17:26:52 <thelsdj> "Piracy is a crime."
17:26:57 <thelsdj> "Please don't steal any boats."
17:27:17 <jsled> Hmm. Isn't that just theft?
17:27:23 <jsled> .g Dread pirate bin-laden
17:27:24 <perigrin> yar!
17:27:27 <phenny> Dread pirate bin-laden: http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/July-August-2005/feature_burgess_julaug05.msp
17:27:45 <perigrin> .compare "Dread Pirate Bin-Laden" "Dread Pirate Bush"
17:27:51 <phenny> "Dread Pirate Bin-Laden" (1,300), "Dread Pirate Bush" (7)
17:28:03 <thelsdj> .gc "dread pirate roberts"
17:28:06 <phenny> "dread pirate roberts": 101,000
17:28:10 <jsled> I think that's a very good article, btw.
17:28:12 <thelsdj> winz
17:28:40 <bjoern_> .gc "Captain Dread"
17:28:44 <phenny> "Captain Dread": 10,700
17:28:52 <perigrin> .gc "judge dread"
17:28:56 <phenny> "judge dread": 160,000
17:28:59 <thelsdj> .gc "dread pirate"
17:29:02 <phenny> "dread pirate": 281,000
17:29:10 <perigrin> .gc "d"
17:29:13 <perigrin> :p
17:29:14 <phenny> "d": 2,800,000,000
17:29:15 <thelsdj> .gc "dread pirate *"
17:29:18 <phenny> "dread pirate *": 288,000
17:29:36 <thelsdj> lets see what google says for that
17:30:06 <thelsdj> if you do "dread pirate *" -roberts
17:30:14 <thelsdj> the first result is dread pirate rackham
17:30:41 <thelsdj> dread pirate sternfoot
17:30:55 <bjoern_> .gc dread pirate dumbledore
17:30:58 <phenny> dread pirate dumbledore: 849
17:31:07 <thelsdj> .gc "dread pirate dumbledore"
17:31:09 <phenny> "dread pirate dumbledore": 0
17:31:13 <thelsdj> cheater
17:31:35 <bjoern_> NO, U !
17:31:45 <thelsdj> NO, ME !
17:32:11 <jsled> cd
17:32:14 <bjoern_> ㋡
17:32:55 <thelsdj> /home/jsled/ $
17:33:36 <jsled> passwd
17:33:46 <jsled> wait, that's not my prompt.
17:33:48 <thelsdj> Please enter new password:
17:33:51 <thelsdj> er
17:33:59 <thelsdj> Please confirm old password:
17:34:54 <thelsdj> what should i do while my boss is away for 5 days?
17:35:08 <jsled> party.
17:35:50 <bjoern_> Loot the office.
17:35:51 <thelsdj> i guess, was hoping for something more fun
17:35:56 <thelsdj> bjoern_: no office
17:35:58 <thelsdj> i work from home
17:36:04 <jsled> even better.
17:36:05 <bjoern_> Loot your bosses home.
17:36:15 <perigrin> raise a black flag ... and declare war upon mankind
17:36:16 <thelsdj> bjoern_: he setup security cameras before he went away
17:36:22 <thelsdj> though i do have access
17:36:28 <perigrin> also TV Party
17:36:29 <jsled> practical joke.
17:36:31 <thelsdj> perigrin is the idea
17:36:37 <thelsdj> tv party?
17:36:38 <bancus> Masturbate vigorously.
17:36:49 <bancus> .wik TV Party
17:36:50 <thelsdj> bancus: already on the agenda
17:36:50 <perigrin> .g Black Flag TV Party Lyrics
17:36:53 <phenny> "TV Party was a cable access TV show in New York City that ran from 1978 to 1982." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Party
17:36:54 <phenny> perigrin: http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/blackflag/tvparty.html
17:37:10 <bancus> .wik TV Party (Song)
17:37:14 <phenny> "TV Party was a 7' EP released by Black Flag in July 1982 on SST Records." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_Party_(EP)
17:37:42 <perigrin> See also...
17:37:47 <perigrin> .wik Bender Should Not Be Allowed on TV
17:37:49 <phenny> "'Bender Should Not Be Allowed on TV' (other name 'BSNBAOTV') ' is the sixth episode of the fourth production season of Futurama." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bender_Should_Not_Be_Allowed_on_TV
17:38:12 <bancus> Yay for metahumor.
17:39:46 <thelsdj> I prefer submetahumor
17:40:54 <perigrin> .gc supersubmetahumor
17:40:57 <phenny> supersubmetahumor: 0
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18:01:47 * sbp currently trying:
18:01:48 <sbp> $ echo '@prefix db: <http://dbpedia.org/resource/> . db:The_IT_Crowd a :Test .' | plan3 --plan3=dbslurp.n3
18:02:29 <sr> :-)
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18:30:01 <deltab> sbp: the Vatican has released a book: C4 news
18:31:58 <sbp> what's the book about?
18:32:09 <sbp> (presuming I missed the story already)
18:32:23 <clsn> I heard something about one recently too.
18:32:29 <clsn> Now I'm blanking on what it was.
18:33:18 <deltab> sbp: Knights Templar
18:33:24 <sbp> hmm!
18:34:28 <clsn> That was it.
18:34:48 <clsn> I read something online about that a few days ago. Expensive book.
18:40:21 <deltab> on in an hour on 4+1, of course
18:40:37 <sbp> :-)
18:40:49 *** idickinson (n=ijd@85-211-131-192.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #swhack
18:40:54 <sbp> last time I missed it on 4+1 even with the Monty reminder. didn't I, Monty?
18:40:55 <Monty> heheh
18:40:59 <sbp> yes
18:43:08 <deltab> followed by a round-robin story 3 Minute Wonder; then Richard & Judy's Best Kids' Books, including celebrities such as Phillip Pullman
18:59:26 <bjoern_> .gc "Don't get swallowed by the vortextes!"
18:59:31 <bjoern_> .gc "Don't get swallowed by the vortexes!"
18:59:35 <phenny> "Don't get swallowed by the vortextes!": 0
18:59:38 <phenny> "Don't get swallowed by the vortexes!": 3
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19:04:37 *** brundlefliege has quit (Client Quit)
19:22:35 <perigrin> .compare vortextettes rockettes
19:22:43 <phenny> rockettes (490,000), vortextettes (0)
19:30:22 <sbp> .gc geschmurtle-mächt
19:30:26 <phenny> geschmurtle-mächt: 0
19:30:46 <perigrin> .title http://www.scq.ubc.ca/?p=657
19:30:51 <phenny> perigrin: The Science Creative Quarterly » A DIALOGUE WITH SARAH, AGED 3: IN WHICH IT IS SHOWN THAT IF YOUR DAD IS A CHEMISTRY PROFESSOR, ASKING “WHY” CAN BE DANGEROUS
19:31:16 <perigrin> .title http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/tpa/409930561.html
19:31:24 <phenny> perigrin: best of craigslist : Survival Of The Fittest
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19:31:36 <perigrin> both were *brilliant*
19:36:51 <bjoern_> Magnets needs a "Do not eat" warning
19:38:32 <bjoern_> I think what's dangerous there is making the questions up yourself when the three year old asks "why"
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19:39:19 <bancus> bjoern_: What about that guy who had magnets surgically implanted in his fingertips?
19:39:53 <bjoern_> He should not eat them either.
19:40:11 <bjoern_> At least not combined with another magnet, or iron candy.
19:40:41 <nsh> cool, a magnetman
19:41:03 <bjoern_> .wik Magneto
19:41:07 <phenny> "Magneto (comics), a comic book character in the Marvel Comics Universe" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto
19:41:53 <bancus> The guy said that one of the more interesting things is that he can sense running motors.
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19:46:15 <clsn> I read that article, was very intriguing.
19:46:42 * clsn sliced his own finger such that he should have taken the opportunity to do the same, a few weeks ago.
19:47:21 <clsn> A word to the wise: don't wash a sharp knife under the sink using just your fingertips, if you still want to have fingertips afterward.
19:47:50 <bjoern_> eeeek
19:49:16 <clsn> OTOH, it is a fascinating demonstration of just how amazing is the body's ability to heal itself.
19:49:43 <clsn> Tho actually it does still bug me, since that spot doesn't "feel" correctly, as the nerves didn't reconnect.
19:49:58 *** Arnia__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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19:51:35 <clsn> Was a very cool article. I've always been fascinated by being able to perceive what most people can't, and working out ways to do it.
19:51:49 *** bear (n=bear@pool-72-92-25-37.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
19:52:18 <clsn> So I found I could roll my eyes and watch the afterimage-streak to determine if a light was steady (like an incandescent) or flickering really fast (like fluorescents do).
19:52:31 <clsn> Something most people can't tell. :)
19:53:09 <deltab> http://www.boingboing.net/2006/06/07/implanting-a-magnet-.html
19:53:45 <bancus> I'm usually one of the first people to know when an fluorescent is going to die.
19:53:56 <clsn> And just Knowing Shit can do that too. Like being able to tell fonts.
19:54:20 <bancus> I seem to be able to detect refresh rates easier than others.
19:54:33 <bancus> The flickering will be driving me nuts and other people will have no clue what I'm on about.
19:54:48 <sbp> bancus: same here
19:54:57 <clsn> Yeah... I know what you mean.
19:55:30 <bancus> There's a light in the hallway outside of my office that's starting to die.
19:55:33 <clsn> I once bought a facsimile copy of the original Gray's Anatomy, off the bargain shelf at the bookstore.
19:55:35 <bancus> But I'm the only one who notices.
19:55:42 <deltab> the set-top boxes here have LED displays that light one segment at a time, cycling rapidly between them
19:55:47 <clsn> Hmm... is it only the pictures, or is the text also facsimile?
19:56:24 <clsn> Aha, the text can't be, because it's set in Goudy. Fred Goudy didn't start making fonts until something like 1920, and this book was published in something like 1880...
19:56:40 <clsn> Again, seeing what is usually unseen...
19:56:56 <bancus> Wow.
19:57:07 <bancus> I really can't listen to Norah Jones without getting a strong urge to sleep.
19:57:16 <bancus> Maybe I should try using that effect to take a nap.
19:57:39 <bancus> Usually it takes me so long to fall asleep that by the time I should get up, I still haven't fallen asleep.
19:57:56 *** troworld has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:58:07 <clsn> Sheez... http://www.boingboing.net/2007/10/23/glenn-beck-people-wh.html
19:59:17 *** martianixor (n=martiani@unaffiliated/martiancode) has joined #swhack
19:59:53 * bancus wonders how stretched syllables when something is sung is accounted for in the study of meter.
20:00:28 <Tene> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8860158196198824415 is an entertaining talk.
20:00:52 * bancus wonders futher whether it would indicate a return to Greek/Latin-style length-based meter, perhaps combined with stress-based meter.
20:01:04 <bancus> And how the two might combine, or if they'd layer over each other.
20:02:15 <bjoern_> .title http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8860158196198824415
20:02:20 <phenny> bjoern_: Growing a Language, by Guy Steele
20:02:31 *** trotek has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:03:06 <bancus> .title http://rozk.livejournal.com/168961.html
20:03:11 <phenny> bancus: rozk: The tragedy of unforeseen things that should have been foreseen
20:03:28 <bancus> "All of the religious factions and militias and Kurdish nationalists and government police in Iraq have one thing that they can agree on, which is killing queers."
20:05:49 <clsn> I thought it was killing Jews.
20:06:35 <procto> the kurds sorta like jews
20:07:05 <procto> I heard a kurdish leader just a couple of months ago respond to allegations of collaboration with Israel by saying "we wish we did"
20:07:37 <clsn> Ooh, that's a good one. :)
20:07:59 *** pierpa` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:08:11 *** pierpa` (n=user@host136-249-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
20:11:30 <bancus> clsn: Well, jews and gays do tend to find themselves on the same shitlists.
20:11:57 <bancus> You'd think that Israel would designate a "Queer Corner" of Jerusalem for them, on that basis alone.
20:12:01 <procto> it's a gay communist jew conspiracy
20:16:46 *** Arnia (n=jgeldart@client-82-13-25-224.brhm.adsl.virgin.net) has joined #swhack
20:17:38 <clsn> bancus: Yes, certainly. After all, if you're making scapegoats, they'll all get blamed for the same things.
20:18:10 <bancus> I mean, it's not like gays have an "ancestral home" to claim.
20:18:26 <bancus> (I still think a group of druids should go attempt to reclaim the british isles.)
20:18:52 <sbp> bancus: Big Gay Al's nightclub?
20:19:05 <bancus> Well, I guess you might be able to claim the whole world as the ancestral home of gays.
20:19:11 <bancus> Since they've been shown to be just about everywhere.
20:19:20 <bancus> "Guess what. Our world now. Fuck off."
20:19:34 <sbp> "The chic shall inherit the earth"?
20:19:41 <bancus> LOL
20:19:54 <bancus> "You can have Antarctica, if you really want it."
20:20:07 <bancus> "Oh, wait, those two penguins are gay. Sorry."
20:20:11 <sbp> heh, heh
20:20:27 <bjoern_> LOL
20:20:28 <bjoern_> "LOL"
20:20:34 <sbp> LOL
20:20:37 <sbp> "'LOL'"
20:20:42 <bancus> Oh, sh--
20:20:56 <sbp> what's wrong with sh?
20:20:59 <bjoern_> Zürich
20:21:08 <sbp> 13025
20:21:15 <bjoern_> ㋡
20:21:20 <bancus> what the fuck is that
20:21:24 <sbp> TU
20:21:26 <bancus> .pc ㋡
20:21:34 <bancus> .pc ㋡
20:21:35 <phenny> 32E1: CIRCLED KATAKANA TU (㋡)
20:21:37 <phenny> 32E1: CIRCLED KATAKANA TU (㋡)
20:21:43 <bancus> Huh.
20:21:49 <bancus> looks like a cock-eyed face
20:21:54 <sbp> yup!
20:22:00 <sbp> that's why we freakin' love it
20:22:01 <bancus> (but, then again, so does your mom's!)
20:22:06 <sbp> DIS
20:22:09 <bancus> (zing!)
20:22:10 <clsn> I've been fighting—hard—the urge to post political opinions on my blog.
20:22:32 <bancus> clsn: I take it my vague anti-zionism has stirred something up?
20:22:34 <clsn> Bleah, dunno if I can draw a decent ㋡
20:23:04 <clsn> Only in the sense of "we were talking about political stuff and so what I said was relevant."
20:23:08 <bancus> Ah.
20:23:38 <perigrin> clsn, it became easy to fight that urge when I moved back to the US and apathy took over.
20:23:54 <clsn> But I already live in the US, and have most of my life.
20:23:58 <bancus> .wik A Is For Apathy
20:24:02 <phenny> "Apathy is a psychological term for a state of indifference — where an individual is unresponsive or 'indifferent' to aspects of emotional, social, or physical life." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apathy
20:24:03 <perigrin> let Apathy take over.
20:24:04 <clsn> And I'm not even all THAT political a person!
20:24:17 <bancus> .g lyrics "A Is For Apathy"
20:24:19 <clsn> Just a few "boy some boneheaded things are being fought about" notions.
20:24:21 <phenny> bancus: http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/A-Is-For-Apathy-lyrics-Powerman-5000/0B8F57033EAD714B48256D0A000A779B
20:25:00 <perigrin> clsn, and the rhetoric used to support torture ... and ... no no must let the apathy remain ...
20:25:02 <clsn> Like the healthcare debate here in the US. I don't know or care which is "right," but at least let's understand what the basic thing is.
20:25:39 <clsn> Oh, and one zinger anti-anti-Zionist thing, yeah.
20:25:50 <bancus> Heh.
20:26:21 <clsn> K, the UN human rights court, right? It's there to, well, yell at countries for violating human rights, right?
20:26:43 <perigrin> that's one theory ...
20:26:56 <perigrin> probably even a popular one with the UN human rights court
20:26:56 <clsn> Well if it isn't they should call it something else, shoudln't they?
20:27:14 <perigrin> yes but "puppet shill for *the MAN*" doesn't look right on a plaque
20:27:37 <clsn> Let's assume everything Israel is accued of is true. And only half of what every other country in the world is true.
20:27:55 * perigrin thinks the double stuff oreo's must have contained some kind of leftist-propaganda juice ... what is happening to him today
20:28:27 <clsn> Heh... Yeah, sometimes the political beast in all of us awakens.
20:28:46 <bancus> For the record, I've never spoken ill of Israel on the basis of its human rights record. They exist now, and are doing what they must to survive. I just question the basis for the nation, and our support of it in light of that.
20:29:24 <perigrin> bancus, 'our'?
20:29:28 <clsn> bancus: I appreciate that... This is more a rant of "how can anyone even pretend that the UN and/or its court are even remotely unbiased."
20:29:44 <bancus> We = the US, in this case.
20:29:49 <bancus> Oh.
20:29:52 <bancus> I don't pretend any such thing.
20:29:56 <bancus> The UN is a joke.
20:30:15 <clsn> It's just totally not believable, even under those assumptions, that Israel is not only the worst human rights offender, but SO MUCH worse than everyone else that NO OTHER COUNTRY is even worthy of reprimand.
20:30:41 <bancus> Has been for a long time; and I assert nothing regarding the fact that it might have been anything else.
20:30:48 <perigrin> clsn,
20:30:49 <perigrin> http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=121852&title=aasif-mandvi-turkey-lurking
20:31:00 <perigrin> who's pretending :)
20:31:00 <clsn> I said it was an anti-anti-Zionist thing, not specifically you...
20:31:10 <bancus> Yeah.
20:31:32 <perigrin> bancus, *YOU* are the problem ... with your anti-anti-Zionist leanings ... and double stuff oreos
20:31:33 <clsn> Oh damn, flash 9.0, and I've been having trouble with that...
20:31:38 <bancus> Heh.
20:31:48 * bancus is an anti-Zionist, vaguely.
20:31:54 * bancus is not anti-Israel, though.
20:32:07 <clsn> Wait, may be working.
20:32:08 <bancus> I'm just not pro-Israel.
20:32:49 * perigrin is more amature-Israel
20:33:25 <clsn> Mm, OK, I can see that. And the overtly biased premise of Israel is certainly something worth reasoned debate. Ideally with someone who can defend it better than I can.
20:33:48 <bancus> My main argument is that "It's our ancestral lands." is ridiculous.
20:33:54 <procto> I am pro-Israel's existence by virtue of being an Israeli
20:34:04 <procto> I do not believe in the ancestral zionist arugment
20:34:05 <bancus> procto: Well, that would do it.
20:34:10 <procto> argument*
20:34:24 <procto> I am AGAINST the type so support the US has been providing to Israel
20:34:26 <clsn> The "it's our ancestral lands" argument IS pretty ridiculous. That way lies religious madness.
20:34:29 <bancus> Again, I have nothing against Israel as it stands, but the persecution and ancestral arguments are bogus to me.
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20:34:32 <procto> both as an Israeli citizen, and as an american tax payer
20:34:50 <bancus> "We needed our own country. We kept getting killed!"
20:35:28 <procto> the persecution argument holds strongly. the arab conflict began due to racist (I can say that, cause I'm a jewish Israeli :>) labor policies by the Jewish Foundation
20:35:31 <bancus> Further, I tend to think that the US' ubiquitous support of Israel is harming our foreign interests elsewhere.
20:35:43 <clsn> That's another matter... and Iran responds to that with "well, put it in Europe." Because it's SO easy to pick up a country and move it.
20:35:56 <procto> bancus: it's also harming Israel's. Which is why we've been forging close ties with China and India in a relatively quiet manner.
20:36:32 <clsn> The video still claims to be "Loading..." Wonder what I have to do this time...
20:36:49 <bjoern_> the one perigrin posted?
20:36:59 <clsn> Yeah.
20:37:27 <bjoern_> that's a) no longer available, the site is b) b0rked like hell, and c) does not work in opera, is just allocates memory like it's nuts.
20:37:37 <perigrin> I'd go with c
20:37:45 <perigrin> since it plays here underfirefox
20:37:45 <clsn> My system is held together with paper clips and string; a lot of advanced things don't quite work together as they should for me.
20:38:13 <bjoern_> Well I am very sure it says it's no longer available, and then something about somebodys mother.
20:38:26 <perigrin> clsn, it was the Aasif Mandiv segment from the Daily Show last night.
20:38:47 * procto finished listening to I Am America and So Can You last night
20:38:50 <procto> I didn't have high hopes fo rit
20:38:52 <procto> for it*
20:38:59 <procto> but it ended up being hilarious
20:39:33 <perigrin> vaguely topical in that Israel is brought up in comparison to Turkey ... and the presdient's strangely dual opinions on supporting Israel but not supporting Turkey
20:40:17 <procto> yeah, what the hell
20:40:22 <bjoern_> does indeed work in 'fox
20:40:23 <procto> Turkey is absolutely justified
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20:45:02 <laplink> RANDOM! OUTBURST!
20:45:15 <bjoern_> no, u :(
20:45:35 *** brundlefliege (n=brundlef@h081217022198.dyn.cm.kabsi.at) has joined #swhack
20:54:03 * Arnia boings
20:55:30 <laplink> .title http://www.graphpaper.com/2007/10-19_the-user-experience-flip-mode
20:55:43 <phenny> laplink: graphpaper.com - The User Experience Flip Mode
20:58:45 <laplink> Oooh. Apparently swhack.com has a Google PR of 8!
20:59:36 <Tene> Now the question is how that could be abused for fun and profit.
20:59:46 <laplink> heh heh
21:00:26 <laplink> Do the text links pay better than GAds?
21:00:49 <Tene> I hear spyware pays pretty good...
21:00:53 <laplink> heh heh
21:05:51 *** l7 (n=l7@evil-wire.org) has joined #swhack
21:12:13 <laplink> .title http://www.boingboing.net/2007/10/24/stormworm-botnet-las.html
21:12:17 <phenny> laplink: StormWorm botnet lashes out at security researchers - Boing Boing
21:12:21 <laplink> This is getting really scary.
21:13:42 *** SinDoc (i=chatzill@70.5-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #swhack
21:13:42 <Monty> yo SinDoc!
21:15:10 <perigrin> laplink, it was 2008 when StormWorm changed its name to SkyNet
21:15:25 <perigrin> We're still not sure who acted first, but we do know it was us that burnt the sky
21:15:25 <laplink> yeah, somthing like that.
21:17:01 <bancus> I'd be almost more inclined to making a joke about it changing its name to Jane.
21:17:32 <perigrin> nah
21:17:35 <perigrin> she was good
21:17:37 <perigrin> mostly
21:18:03 <bancus> Who says StormWorm is bad?
21:18:12 * perigrin does have flashes of Ansibles whenever he watches documentaries about M-Theory
21:18:22 <perigrin> my spambox :)
21:19:28 <Arnia> perigrin: I'm algebratising ontologies
21:19:57 <perigrin> Arnia, I think your local chemist will have an ointment for that
21:20:03 <perigrin> .title http://www.boingboing.net/2007/10/21/more-us-warcraft-pla.html
21:20:06 <phenny> perigrin: More US Warcraft players than farmers - Boing Boing
21:42:37 <laplink> .title http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/10/obama_camp_says_it_hell_support_filibuster_of_any_bill_containing_telecom_immunity.php
21:42:41 <phenny> laplink: Election Central | Talking Points Memo | Obama Camp Says It: He'll Support Filibuster Of Any Bill Containing Telecom Immunity
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21:55:29 <bjoern_> .gc metapresident
21:55:32 <phenny> metapresident: 299
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21:58:15 <Arnia> ooh, interesting; someone has built a method for determining whether two sketches are semantically equivalent (have the same initial model)
21:59:38 <perigrin> as in 'pencil sketches' ?
21:59:43 <Arnia> ;p
22:00:08 <Arnia> As in categorical sketches (bundles of equations)
22:00:22 <perigrin> ahh ... see I haven't heard that term in that context before
22:00:33 <perigrin> my first thought was Monty Python
22:00:34 <Monty> shh, don't work for. yay
22:00:39 <perigrin> but ... I discarded that with "model"
22:00:41 <Arnia> A sketch is like a universally quantified statement
22:00:54 <perigrin> ...
22:01:02 <perigrin> bundle of equations I understood :)
22:01:18 <Arnia> heh
22:01:31 <Arnia> What is interesting is that sketches also form a category
22:02:08 <Arnia> What is more interesting is that it is a category with limits and co-limits, so you can define (for example) the product or sum of two sketches
22:02:56 <Arnia> I'm looking to apply my categorisation of RDF to the problem of ontology integration
22:03:13 <perigrin> the product or sum of two ontologies?
22:03:24 <Arnia> Given two ontologies (described in the form of two sketches), what ways can you combine them?
22:03:33 <perigrin> hmm
22:03:57 <Arnia> You can form a product (which acts like the intersection of the equations)
22:04:04 <perigrin> actually given sbp's work on an onlology for quoting ...
22:04:13 <perigrin> Monty Python might not have been a bad interpretation :)
22:04:15 <Monty> puntloos, that's improved
22:04:22 <Arnia> You can form a sum (which acts like asserting both sets of equations)
22:05:08 <Arnia> You can even use a push-out to form a discriminating union of the two categories (which allows one to select which concepts get forced to be identical; allowing parameterised data types)
22:06:16 <perigrin> slick
22:06:27 * perigrin fighting the eye glaze
22:06:33 <perigrin> actually
22:06:57 <perigrin> it would be interesting to map ontologies to Traits
22:07:07 <Arnia> hm?
22:07:35 <perigrin> smalltalk (and perl6 and Moose) has a unit of class composition ... Traits (nee Roles)
22:08:08 <Arnia> ah, just wondering how you would perform the mapping
22:08:14 <perigrin> which your work sounds similar to the work $boss is doing making parameterized roles ...
22:08:57 <perigrin> well ... a Trait is a partial Class
22:09:04 <perigrin> and there is mapping between traits and sets ...
22:09:06 <laplink> .title http://watchismo.blogspot.com/2007/10/haunted-horology-week-mary-queen-of.html
22:09:10 <phenny> laplink: THE WATCHISMO TIMES: Haunted Horology Week! Mary Queen of Scots Skull Watch
22:09:12 <perigrin> and I have no clue of the maths involved ...
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22:09:27 <perigrin> but someone smarter than me ... doing say Categorical work ...
22:09:32 <perigrin> could find something in it :)
22:10:00 <perigrin> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/cgi-bin/scgbib.cgi?query=Traits+the+Formal+Model
22:11:04 <perigrin> I'd done some work parsing OWL into Perl classes ... but it was half hearted and started months and months ago
22:12:04 <Arnia> heh
22:12:15 <Arnia> I'll have to think about it
22:12:22 <Arnia> Need to get this paper submitted first
22:13:18 <perigrin> :)
22:17:51 * Arnia views himself as being in competition with the description logic bunch
22:18:15 <perigrin> two ends of the same banana I think.
22:18:26 <perigrin> DL confuses me too though :)
22:18:43 <Arnia> They're node-oriented, I'm edge-oriented. They're all about complexity, I'm all about completeness. They view ontologies in a set theoretic fashion, I view them in a model-neutral fashion.
22:20:04 <perigrin> They like blue, you like red ...
22:20:14 <perigrin> they're all chocolate you're all vanilla
22:20:20 <perigrin> yep ...
22:20:41 <perigrin> They're all 10th Doctor ... you're all 5th doctor ...
22:20:52 <perigrin> (actually did you say you were 7th doctor?)
22:21:34 <Arnia> Indeed
22:22:56 <Arnia> .wik .kr
22:23:00 <phenny> ".kr is the Internet country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for South Korea (Republic of Korea)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kr
22:24:51 <Arnia> Aha, and you can derive completeness theorems easily from sketch-theoretic constructions
22:24:55 * Arnia dances
22:25:01 <Arnia> Looks like this is a profitable idea
22:25:04 <Arnia> I'll keep it
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22:36:12 <nsh> there's a sketch theory?
22:36:31 <nsh> i'm supposed to be informed of all theories; heads will roll
22:37:23 <bjoern_> make them roll my way kplzthx
22:37:27 <bjoern_> I will turn them into dollars.
22:37:49 <nsh> OKAI!
22:38:14 * nsh wonders what Arnia was talking about and what would be required to find out
22:45:26 <Arnia> A sketch is a tuple (G, D, L, K) where G is a graph, D is a set of diagrams, L is a set of limit cones and K is a set of limit co-cones
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22:46:29 <Arnia> A model of a sketch in a category C is a functor from G to C such that for all diagrams in D, the result of applying the functor to the diagram is a commutative diagram in C, and the cones and co-cones are taken to cones and co-cones in C
22:47:46 <Arnia> A sketch homomorphism from (G, D, L, K) to (G', D', L', K') is a graph homomorphism from G to G' which preserves the behaviour of D, L, K
22:48:13 <Arnia> Sketch theory is about constructions in the category of sketches and upon that category
22:48:50 <nsh> sounds convoluted. what do you do with them?
22:49:09 * nsh adds 'read textbook on category theory' to to-do list
22:49:43 <Arnia> Well, I'm categorising RDF's semantics
22:50:08 <Arnia> The theory of sketches allows a natural form of ontological reasoning which doesn't require one to 'glue' another semantics on top
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22:50:34 <nsh> hmm
22:51:05 <Arnia> It also abstracts the ontological reasoning from being defined solely in terms of sets
22:51:19 <Arnia> (so you could use fuzzy set theory as a model, or something more exotic)
22:51:38 <nsh> i can see how that would be useful
22:52:13 <Arnia> You get all the same powerful constructions for free, irrespective of the model chosen (as long as the model is in a topos -- a generalisation of set theory)
22:52:56 <Arnia> If your model isn't into a topos, then you lose some things but not everything and what you lose is purely down to what constructions your target category supports
22:53:15 <Arnia> (so you can see why a particular construction doesn't hold in a particular model)
22:53:23 * nsh nods
22:53:43 <Arnia> Also, you can treat sketches as a category so you can combine them in interesting ways
22:54:04 <Arnia> As I said, you can form the product of two sketches, or the sum, or the pullback or pushout
22:54:16 <procto> Arnia: that sounds interesting. I may have to write my semantics term paper on it
22:54:38 <Arnia> These allow you to state relationships between different ontologies forming a sort of algebra of ontologies
22:55:56 <Arnia> You can also describe 'sub-ontologies' and so build a partial order, or make full subcategories of the category of sketches which have certain (e.g. computational) properties
22:56:45 <Arnia> Of course the ultimate aim for me is to then be able to describe a model of RDF in terms of a non-axiomatic semantics and so deal with disagreement in RDF in a well-defined fashion
22:56:50 <Arnia> ahem... make any sense?
22:56:59 <nsh> i can appreciate that it makes sense to you :-)
22:57:07 <nsh> but i'm very new to all this
22:57:24 <nsh> is it possible to give an example of what you'd actually 'practically' do with this technology?
23:04:36 <nsh> i suppose it's all to do with computation representations of things and manipulating them in variousu ways
23:04:44 <nsh> but it all seems very abstract
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23:05:58 <Arnia> nsh: imagine you have a sketch describing the behaviour of natural numbers
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23:06:13 <Arnia> nsh: imagine you also have a sketch describing the behaviour of a list
23:06:37 <Arnia> nsh: you can form a pushout which describes the behaviour of a list of natural numbers
23:07:00 <nsh> hmm, i see
23:07:14 <nsh> except that kind of makes it seem exhaustive
23:07:26 <nsh> you can't describe the entire behaviour of natural numbers finitely
23:07:40 <Arnia> well, you can
23:07:55 <Arnia> .wik natural numbers object
23:07:59 <phenny> "In category theory, a natural number object (nno) is an object endowed with a recursive structure similar to natural numbers." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_numbers_object
23:08:22 <nsh> ah, well
23:08:24 <perigrin> hmm
23:08:34 <nsh> you can describe something that you can use to compute further properties recursively
23:08:55 <perigrin> arnia please write me a database engine that uses categories as it's formative theory rather than sets ... 'kthx
23:09:18 <Arnia> .title http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/diskin95algebraic.html
23:09:24 <phenny> Arnia: Algebraic Graph-Based Approach to Management of Multi-Base Systems,II: Mathematical Aspects of Schema Integration - Cadish, Diskin (ResearchIndex)
23:10:09 <perigrin> is there an idiots guide to cateogory theory?
23:10:26 <perigrin> actually having read the idiots guide to calculus .. is there an idiots guide to the idiots guie to category theory?
23:10:34 <Arnia> .g "category theory for computing science"
23:10:35 <nsh> perigrin, there's a "gentler introduction to category theory" textbook
23:10:37 <phenny> "category theory for computing science": http://www.case.edu/artsci/math/wells/pub/ctcs.html
23:10:52 <Arnia> .g pierce basic category theory
23:10:56 <phenny> Arnia: http://www.amazon.com/Category-Computer-Scientists-Foundations-Computing/dp/0262660717
23:11:10 <Arnia> .title http://www.amazon.com/Category-Computer-Scientists-Foundations-Computing/dp/0262660717
23:11:15 <phenny> Arnia: Amazon.com: Basic Category Theory for Computer Scientists (Foundations of Computing): Books: Benjamin C. Pierce
23:11:23 <perigrin> yes but is there a category theory for People who Read Technical Authoring
23:11:45 <Arnia> Uh... no... but there are lots of readable tutorials about
23:12:00 <Arnia> Really, the problem is that category theory is necessarily abstract
23:12:19 <Arnia> Everything is done in about the most general framework there is
23:14:46 <nsh> Arnia, because the idea is that you don't want to be tied to any arbitrarity in representation?
23:15:29 <Arnia> nsh: indeed
23:16:00 <Arnia> nsh: the motivation is to capture generalities across applications at the highest level possible
23:16:16 * nsh nods
23:16:34 <nsh> so using formal language to deformalise language
23:17:02 <Arnia> In a sense...
23:18:03 <Arnia> For me the most important reasons for using category theory are the decoupling of RDF's semantics from set theory (so we can easily define semantics in other categories) and the swathe of tools you get (such as sketches, etc.)
23:19:44 <nsh> something i always find myself asking about any model or theory of models is: how much is structural and static and how much is interactional and dynamic? my instinct is that for maximum generality, the weight needs to be heavily towards the latter
23:20:21 <Arnia> Well, yes
23:20:36 <Arnia> I'm looking at ways of formalising that within this idea actually
23:20:51 <nsh> cool
23:21:06 <nsh> that's what i was thinking when you spoke about sketch algrebras
23:21:06 <Arnia> My current instinct (/dread) is that I'm going to have to learn Sheaf theory (which is an extension to topos theory)
23:21:15 <nsh> hmm, sounds interesting
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23:21:40 <Arnia> If the category your model maps to has a sheaf defined upon it then you can definitely capture temporal logic
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23:21:59 <Arnia> but I really don't get sheaf theory enough to comment at this time
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23:22:25 <nsh> mmm
23:22:38 <Arnia> (I can cope with toposes, adjuctions, etc. but sheafs are the other side of functor algebras and I haven't groked those quite yet)
23:23:29 <nsh> what would be really cool: if you could select from some site a researcher on the cutting edge of a field, then select from their current work any particular problem or idea they're working on, then recursively build a tree of what fields/concepts are required to understand the frontier of that particular area of research
23:23:45 <Arnia> yeah
23:24:05 <nsh> that way you could cut out any unnecessary learning and focus on what's required to get to the cutting-edge
23:24:11 <Arnia> very cool... but the problem is that it would require cutting edge researchers to stop doing their cutting edge research to build it ;)
23:24:16 * nsh smiles
23:24:22 <nsh> truedat
23:24:43 <Arnia> I'm happy with sticking to theory
23:24:57 <Arnia> Hey, if this continues going well I might gain an entirely theoretical PhD
23:24:59 <Arnia> WOO
23:25:05 <nsh> hehe
23:25:34 <nsh> that should get you a theoretically wonderful theoretical job
23:25:48 <nsh> are you still playing with the BT proposal?
23:26:25 *** est (n=est@adsl-71-142-77-194.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack
23:27:06 <nsh> or are you already doing that? might be misremem'bring
23:28:34 <Arnia> I've taken their offer
23:28:45 <Arnia> we'll see how it goes
23:28:54 <nsh> best-of :-)
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23:43:23 * Arnia hopes the paper will be accepted
23:44:30 <nsh> hope so too, buddy
23:44:50 * nsh wants to find a good essay on the commensurability relations between bandwith, processing power, and storage space for networked systems
23:45:52 <nsh> in some vague way, i get the feeling that any two and make up for the third up to a certain power, but i'd like to see that quantified and explained
23:45:57 <nsh> *can make up
23:48:24 <Arnia> Well, communication complexity maps fairly straightforwardly to processing power and bandwidth and by caching communications you reduce communication complexity at the expense of storage
23:48:40 <Arnia> What would be really interesting is looking at communication complexity classes
23:48:51 <nsh> mm, sounds it
23:50:07 <nsh> it's really annoying that i've got to the stage where all my google queries return journal articles
23:50:26 <nsh> half of which i don't have access to, and most of the other half are pretty opaque to me
23:50:53 <nsh> and another ten months until professors are obligated to answer my question
23:51:26 <nsh> or eleven even
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23:51:53 <nsh> Text should unfold...
23:52:39 <nsh> I've been thinking that for a while. Like those MAD magazine picture, you should be able to unfold a piece of text at any point to reveal further ellaboration or definition
23:53:25 <nsh> that way you don't have to tailor writing to particular levels of proficiency, as the level of folding can be seperate to the content
23:54:59 <Arnia> Unfortunately text is also linear... so whatever unfolding you do would have to cohere with the folds
23:55:18 <Arnia> Either that or your automatically generate hyperlinks based on semantic parsing
23:56:32 <jsled> nsh: <http://research.microsoft.com/research/pubs/view.aspx?msr_tr_id=MSR-TR-99-100>, kinda.
23:57:13 <deltab> http://code-browser.sourceforge.net/index.html
23:57:29 <nsh> jsled, thanks
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