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00:20:47 <ido> laggy mclaggerton
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00:55:44 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's xororand!
00:56:14 <xororand> Monty, me matey!
00:56:14 <Monty> Tell me more about that.
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01:09:57 <Monty> howdy, Cutout
01:09:57 <Monty> welcome, nicomen
01:09:57 <Monty> hi sbp
01:10:01 <clsn> what're you still doing up, sbp?
01:10:14 <Cutout> Go on.
01:16:42 * MoiraA_ is still up too
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01:32:54 <nicomen> thanks
01:37:12 <MoiraA> hello, back
01:37:27 <MoiraA> haven't sat up this late for a while
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01:52:39 <thelsdj> Additionally, I've been told that Steve Carell informed NBC he is unable to report to work because he is suffering from “enlarged balls.” Not just enlarged, I'd say, but brass ones. The source on this one adds, "We wish him a happy, slow recovery."
01:52:48 <thelsdj> - http://unitedhollywood.blogspot.com/2007/11/office-down-for-good.html
01:54:58 <MoiraA> ah someone still up!
01:56:25 <MoiraA> had my website torn apart by professional designers :_)
01:56:25 <MoiraA> they gave me a link to a validator and I find it hard to believe it works with all the apparent errors
01:56:31 <MoiraA> thing is, I'm not that interested in websites, but I must admit mine is starting to look very 1990s
01:56:46 <MoiraA> I think I'll look for someone who can redesign the index page for me
01:56:58 <MoiraA> obviously I'd pay the going rate
01:57:11 <MoiraA> so if you know of somewhere I could go, let me know
01:57:28 <MoiraA> I just need someone enthusiastic with knowlege of CSS and xhtml
01:57:34 <MoiraA> and html
01:57:54 <MoiraA> who has artistic talent
01:58:12 <MoiraA> and I would give full credit and recognition to anyone who redesigned it
01:58:13 <thelsdj> yea i got someone to do one for me for free, and i haven't even used it yet, i should get on that
01:58:25 <MoiraA> as well as a reasonable rate of p-ay
01:58:39 <thelsdj> this person has dissapeared from the internet, or i'd forward you to them
01:58:40 <MoiraA> I'm very happy to pay for the skills I'll be taking advantage of
01:58:54 <MoiraA> ah that's a pity
01:59:12 <MoiraA> I know I could learn how to do it myself, but I've just got other ways I want to spend my time
01:59:40 <MoiraA> however, I also want a site that's halfway decent - I already pay a company to check for downtime and broken links
01:59:42 <thelsdj> i would suggest oswd.org
01:59:47 <MoiraA> so it all works and is up to date
01:59:57 <MoiraA> I'll investigate
02:00:06 <MoiraA> the site is www.moiraatkinson.co.uk
02:00:09 <MoiraA> it just needs a facelift
02:00:35 <MoiraA> Ive never used software to design it,I've just written the html myself which shows :)
02:00:45 <MoiraA> and learned javascript as necessary
02:01:06 <MoiraA> it's satisfying but in today's world, it isn't good enough
02:01:36 <MoiraA> I'm afraid I put a php script on the index page preventing people looking at it from work
02:03:25 <MoiraA> thanks I've bookmarked that site, it looks very promising
02:03:32 <MoiraA> I'm just amazed it's all free
02:03:49 <MoiraA> perhaps I could make a donation - I don't believe in taking and not giving anything back
02:04:40 <thelsdj> yea i used one of those years ago for an old site of mine
02:05:09 <MoiraA> presumably you download a template and add your own stuff?
02:05:21 <MoiraA> then upload it to the server that hosts the site?
02:05:54 <MoiraA> I hope I can insert php scripts - not so many to slow it down, but I do want the power to prevent certain people seeing it
02:06:16 <MoiraA> I picked up a stalker once who had 2,500 page views each day
02:06:23 <MoiraA> used all my bandwidth
02:06:42 <thelsdj> yea, its basically just an hhtml/css template that you can do with what you want
02:06:42 <MoiraA> annoyingly, his ISP (telewest) weren't at all helpful
02:06:52 <MoiraA> I know Im an adult etc, but it was very creepy
02:07:23 <thelsdj> how much control of your server do you have?
02:07:31 <MoiraA> this guy started emailing me my articles back with certain changes
02:07:49 <thelsdj> haha
02:07:50 <MoiraA> well, I can upload stuff and put on the server what I want
02:08:19 <MoiraA> but it's hosted by a friend who went into web hosting and I've stayed loyal to him because he gave me my first two years free
02:08:32 <thelsdj> thats nice
02:08:38 <MoiraA> he's there if I want him but never interfers
02:08:52 <MoiraA> saying that, I wouldn't upload anything that could be objected to
02:09:00 <thelsdj> phenny: tell sbp about new zero punctuation review: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/2608-Zero-Punctuation-Zelda-Phantom-Hourglass
02:09:02 <phenny> thelsdj: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
02:09:12 <MoiraA> I'd never put software, music or gruelling videos on the site
02:09:44 <MoiraA> he knows he can trust me - the server supports php which is a plus
02:09:57 <MoiraA> I can't access more than my own folders though
02:10:02 <MoiraA> I wouldn't expect to be able to
02:10:23 <MoiraA> do you think I should have more control?
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02:13:12 <thelsdj> i think you have enough control for what you want to do with it
02:19:44 <MoiraA> really it's just a place I can put a bit of family news on and some photos for relatives overseas
02:19:55 <MoiraA> and I can also sound off about something that annoys me
02:20:03 <MoiraA> and I can practice writing some html
02:20:10 <MoiraA> that's all I want it for
02:20:22 <MoiraA> but I accept that nowadays it needs more than that
02:20:28 <MoiraA> so I'll go for it
02:32:18 <MoiraA> anyone around?
02:32:22 <MoiraA> thelsdj
02:32:30 <MoiraA> is msn working for you?
02:32:40 <MoiraA> I'm getting an error and it won't connect
02:32:50 <MoiraA> just wondered if it was me or msn at fault
02:38:39 <thelsdj> checking
02:38:43 <thelsdj> i think i'm on msn right now
02:38:53 <MoiraA> oh dammit
02:38:58 <MoiraA> must be vista
02:39:12 <thelsdj> or could be using a different set of servers
02:39:21 <MoiraA> I'll have to reboot but will finish this email
02:39:28 <MoiraA> a reboot may well solve it
02:39:46 <thelsdj> yea vista is kinda weird about network stuff
02:39:58 <MoiraA> I've never rebooted so much as since I got vista
02:40:08 <MoiraA> the pc running xp pro never gets rebooted
02:40:50 <MoiraA> I admire people who are strong enough not to have to get the latest in everything and learn how to use linux
02:41:16 <MoiraA> they just need an average PC and have far more time to spend learning something useful like programming
02:41:24 <thelsdj> its helpful when you have a mentor, someone who can answer all your little questions and physically there on hand to fix things
02:41:51 <MoiraA> yes - I have someone who can help with hardware
02:42:08 <MoiraA> he really enjoys it so I always involve him with my rebuilds
02:42:16 <MoiraA> he does a lot of the hard work, sourcing the parts
02:42:40 <MoiraA> and I pay him generously, I'd hate people to think I was using them
02:42:49 <thelsdj> i still go to my dads once a year to install latest linux for him
02:42:53 <ido> poopjockey
02:43:05 <MoiraA> if I want that kind of service I shouldn't expect people to give it for nothing
02:43:14 <MoiraA> your dad uses linux?
02:43:21 <MoiraA> good for him
02:43:27 <MoiraA> my dad uses xp :)
02:43:34 <MoiraA> he's very set in his ways but he is 81
02:43:39 <thelsdj> ya, he's been running it for about 5-6 years, but for the first few i was living with him
02:43:51 <thelsdj> i got my dad on linux after he hit 60 :)
02:44:01 <MoiraA> he's learnt how to do what he wants on the computer and has actually mastered some complicated spreadsheets
02:44:10 <MoiraA> I'd love to dual boot this
02:44:29 <MoiraA> what I'm going to do is install a virtual machine and see if it will run ubuntu
02:44:47 <thelsdj> ya good idea, you can get prebuild vmware player images
02:45:11 <MoiraA> I failed to dual boot, the boot program just wouldn't work
02:45:27 <MoiraA> boot program is wrong - it's late :)
02:45:32 <MoiraA> grub
02:45:50 <MoiraA> it just woudn't see vista and vista wouldn't see ubunty
02:45:54 <MoiraA> *ubuntu
02:45:59 <thelsdj> http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/1068
02:46:01 <thelsdj> doh
02:46:18 <thelsdj> i have lots of computers for work so i don't dual boot much
02:46:34 <MoiraA> I actually downloaded something called parallels
02:46:47 <MoiraA> I successfully dual booted my laptop with suse and xp
02:47:07 <MoiraA> installed suse first
02:47:14 <MoiraA> or did I? maybe xp first
02:47:20 <MoiraA> anyway it worked a treat
02:47:32 <thelsdj> the nice thing about vmware player is there are a bunch of prebuilt OSs, i gave you the link for latest ubuntu
02:47:36 <MoiraA> I got samba working and could acces files on the linux partition on this windows pc
02:47:40 <thelsdj> here is the download for vmware player: http://www.vmware.com/download/player/
02:48:14 <MoiraA> right that's all bookmarked
02:48:33 <MoiraA> I failed first time round with vmware but I'll give it another go
02:48:41 <MoiraA> I just think vista is awkward
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02:48:50 <thelsdj> yea that it is
02:48:53 <MoiraA> it doesn't want to share with any other OS
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02:49:22 <thelsdj> .wik .bi
02:49:23 <MoiraA> ideally I'd use ubuntu and just boot into windows when I wanted to work on office or visual studio
02:49:25 <phenny> ".bi is the Internet country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for Burundi." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.bi
02:49:38 <thelsdj> k.thnx.bi would be even cooler than k.thnx.org
02:49:46 <MoiraA> I might as well stick with vb since I know a bit ot it
02:49:58 <thelsdj> i think mono now supports VB
02:50:29 <MoiraA> I just work on office 2003 as I don't know any job that would want office 2007 skills
02:50:35 <MoiraA> mono?
02:51:00 <MoiraA> is that like an emulator?
02:51:15 <MoiraA> I've experimented with wine without much success
02:51:17 <thelsdj> no, its an open source replacement for MS C#/.Net
02:51:31 <MoiraA> but I did get to grips very nicely with suse
02:51:34 <MoiraA> right
02:51:55 <thelsdj> but now besides C# it supports writing in VB.Net
02:52:23 <thelsdj> also for office, have you tried OpenOffice?
02:52:45 <MoiraA> well, anything that converts into MSIL would work
02:52:47 <MoiraA> thought it's strange to think of using vb in a linux environment since it isn't cross platform
02:52:47 <MoiraA> I really wish I'd learnt python or something
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02:53:10 <MoiraA> yes
02:53:19 <MoiraA> it's very good
02:53:31 <MoiraA> unfortunately jobs usually want MS skills
02:53:41 <MoiraA> and it's the MS exams I've done
02:54:02 <MoiraA> so I feel I need to keep on top of the advanced features so I don't forget them
02:54:19 <MoiraA> that's how I ended up getting into vb
02:54:26 <MoiraA> I learnt vb for applications
02:54:30 <thelsdj> right
02:54:51 <MoiraA> just progressed as far as the office apps would go
02:54:57 <MoiraA> I particularly liked Access
02:55:04 <MoiraA> pity it's not used :)
02:55:36 <MoiraA> I could work in the vb window and do all sorts and got to know some SQL but even that isn't proper SQL from what I gather
02:55:44 <MoiraA> everything I learn becomes obsolete
02:56:13 <MoiraA> still, once you learn any programming it's much easier to master another language
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03:15:25 <Monty> hey swhacker
03:15:25 <Monty> bah, it's chandler again
03:15:25 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's troworld!
03:15:25 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's thelsdj!
03:15:25 <Monty> yo JibbyBot!
03:15:25 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's xavier!
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03:15:38 <MoiraA> need to reboot, brb
03:15:42 <MoiraA> lo ido_
03:15:48 <MoiraA> brb
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03:42:52 <Monty> yo jsled!
03:42:52 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's karamba38!
03:42:54 <Monty> But what does xavier have to do with the price of fish?
03:42:55 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
03:42:55 <Monty> huhu
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03:45:03 <Monty> Thank goodness, ido_ is back!
03:45:04 <kpreid> Monty the netsplittee
03:45:05 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
03:45:05 <Monty> model :P
03:45:09 <Monty> You see, UCOL chewy cellar stalks orange expostulatory sexual history?!
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03:52:14 <ido> that's better
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04:01:22 <patbam> mlorp
04:01:49 <thelsdj> prolm
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04:05:29 <Monty> hey deltab
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04:16:19 <D8pod> hello!?
04:17:00 <thelsdj> Hello!!?!
04:17:12 <D8pod> Hello
04:17:22 <thelsdj> elloH
04:18:16 <D8pod> )
04:18:42 <thelsdj> (
04:18:44 <D8pod> Nota: parenthesis break safari
04:18:51 <thelsdj> woops
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04:19:09 <D8pod> In summary: the gay
04:19:47 <D8pod> Not just a gay either. The gay.
04:19:54 <thelsdj> that is sad
04:20:16 <D8pod> Totally. Anyways, what be up
04:20:36 <thelsdj> the up be what!
04:20:38 <thelsdj> er
04:20:53 <thelsdj> i'm going to buy a 30ft cthulhu avatar in second life
04:21:06 <D8pod> Buy?
04:21:27 <thelsdj> actually just going to go look at it right now, but may buy it
04:21:44 <D8pod> How much?
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04:23:17 <D8pod> Too much?
04:23:37 <thelsdj> probably around 7k, going to be a limited item, 10 sold and customized
04:24:01 <D8pod> Way too much. Seriously
04:24:44 <D8pod> Only people like me have that kinda fake cash r
04:25:36 <thelsdj> or me, when i'm willing to splurge
04:25:55 <thelsdj> ha, just realized i have 18k right now
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04:26:11 <D8pod> I play that game pretty much every spare second I have. Seeing how I'm never on shows how mujh free time I have
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04:26:32 <D8pod> Brb, walk to bus stop time
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04:39:53 <Monty> Thank goodness, trotek is back!
04:39:54 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
04:39:55 <Monty> As well :) I'm the Nokia seems funny.
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04:41:25 <Monty> welcome, Tene
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04:42:29 <Arnia> damn mouse is in my room
04:42:37 * Arnia kicks things to drive it out
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04:44:01 <KragenSitaker> .ety sutra
04:44:04 <phenny> "'series of aphorisms,' 1801, from Skt. sutram 'rule,' lit. 'string, thread' (as a measure of straightness), from sivyati 'sew;' cognate with L. suere 'to sew' (see sew)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=sutra
04:44:51 <KragenSitaker> My pillow?
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05:01:19 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: NO YUO
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05:22:42 <Monty> hi cre8radix|off
05:34:30 <thelsdj> http://www.technologyreview.com/printer_friendly_article.aspx?id=19533
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06:00:21 <Monty> yo CaptSolo!
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06:30:24 <Monty> howdy, loggy
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06:43:53 <Monty> welcome, bpt
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06:45:11 <Monty> hi clsn, how ya doing?
06:45:13 <phenny> Monty: shh, don't let anyone know you're around!
06:45:22 <Monty> IS this sort of... it may have that all black, and a message... damn, only good things running all reactions are all I cannot come I still quite frankly, bugger it a soft little
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06:59:10 <Monty> it's Jabberwo1k!
06:59:11 <Monty> howdy, JibbyBot
06:59:13 <Monty> hi xavier
06:59:14 <Monty> lo aspect_
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07:03:44 <perigrin> lolpipz, talk to me
07:03:58 <perigrin> monty you try
07:03:58 <Monty> my=mine
07:04:05 <perigrin> .ety time
07:04:05 <lolpipz> perigrin: R YU STAR TREK FAN?
07:04:07 <phenny> "O.E. getimian 'to happen, befall,' from time (n.)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=time
07:04:50 * perigrin finds he prefers 3 different monospaced fonts for 3 different contexts ... hmm
07:13:19 * Arnia pokes perigrin
07:13:25 <perigrin> ouch
07:13:39 <Arnia> Have you heard the new Doctor Who soundtrack yet?
07:14:36 <perigrin> I have not ...
07:14:48 <perigrin> Though I saw you mention it earlier
07:15:39 * perigrin wonders why his mac has suddenly decided to not mount dmg's
07:16:22 <perigrin> methinks perhaps it is time to restart
07:20:16 * perigrin will return in a moment
07:27:30 <perigrin> bettah now
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07:29:41 <perigrin> .weather mco
07:29:43 <perigrin> bah
07:29:46 <perigrin> .weather kmco
07:29:53 <phenny> Scattered, 53.6℉ (12℃), 30.06in (1015mb), Gentle breeze 7kt (↑) - KMCO 2:53, 0753Z
07:31:09 <Arnia_> The new one is good
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08:03:00 <sbp> yo
08:03:02 <phenny> sbp: 02:39Z <thelsdj> tell sbp about new zero punctuation review: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/2608-Zero-Punctuation-Zelda-Phantom-Hourglass
08:13:23 <sbp> awesome
08:13:26 <sbp> phenny: tell thelsdj thanks!
08:13:29 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when thelsdj is around.
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08:13:36 <Monty> But what does JibberJim have to do with the price of fish?
08:13:38 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
08:13:40 <Monty> Please don't depend on swings :(
08:14:04 <thelsdj> phenny: tell sbp yw
08:14:06 <phenny> thelsdj: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
08:14:09 <phenny> thelsdj: 08:43Z <sbp> tell thelsdj thanks!
08:15:04 <sbp> 'k
08:15:06 <phenny> sbp: 08:44Z <thelsdj> tell sbp yw
08:16:58 <thelsdj> http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/11/encrypted-e-mai.html
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08:22:51 <thelsdj> haha nygirlofmydreams
08:22:52 <thelsdj> was found
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08:41:23 <_bjoern> "A sexy swing of the hips may attract admiring glances, but it is not a covert sign a woman is ready to breed, according to researchers. " - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7082704.stm
08:43:06 <JibberJim> the girls keep their legs together when most fertile - seems weird!
08:43:41 <JibberJim> but what do I know about girls
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08:49:30 <_bjoern> .t -5
08:49:32 <phenny> Thu, 08 Nov 2007 04:19:53 -5
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09:09:39 <sbp> _bjoern! Happy United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 Anniversary!
09:10:05 <_bjoern> It's the fifth! Yay!
09:10:09 <_bjoern> thx omg !!
09:10:23 * sbp chuckles at http://nygirlofmydreams.com/
09:10:28 <sbp> no more updates though T_T
09:10:32 <sbp> _bjoern: ㋡
09:12:44 <darobin> happy _bjoern day everyone!
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10:07:01 <_bjoern> not much news today.
10:11:19 <darobin> I nevertheless would like to congratulate our Belgian friends on demonstrating the usefulness of government so clearly
10:12:00 <_bjoern> are we 150 days now?
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10:12:40 <darobin> today starts the 151st
10:13:00 <darobin> with no signs of progress, in fact rather the contrary
10:13:04 * perigrin waves at darobin
10:13:08 <darobin> perigrin!
10:13:21 * perigrin should be sleeping though
10:15:52 <darobin> mmmm, German banking crooks seem to lack ambition — stealing from kids?
10:16:59 <_bjoern> Life is difficult here, we can't just set California on fire to get out of the subprime crisis.
10:18:16 <_bjoern> "While confidence in government has increased modestly in recent years, the public is increasingly suspicious of itself; in the most recent Pew Values Survey, fewer than six-in-ten (57%) say they have a good deal of confidence in the wisdom of the American people when it comes to making political decisions" - http://news.yahoo.com/s/pew/20071107/ts_pew/57decliningconfidenceinpoliticalwisdomofamericans
10:19:59 <_bjoern> "Sometimes the music was American rap, sometimes Arab folk songs. In the CIA prison in Afghanistan, it came blaring through the speakers 24 hours a day. Prisoners held alone inside barbed-wire cages could only speak to each other and exchange their news when the music stopped: if the tape was changed or the generators broke down." - http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/11/cia-rendition-t.html
10:20:20 <_bjoern> that's cruel, but working, see: "Under torture after his rendition to Egypt, al Libi had provided a confession of how Saddam Hussein had been training al Qaeda in chemical weapons. This evidence was used by Colin Powell at the United Nations a year earlier"
10:21:17 <_bjoern> '''But now, hearing how the information was obtained, the CIA was soon to retract all this intelligence. A Feb. 5 cable records that al Libi was told by a "foreign government service" (Egypt) that: "the next topic was al-Qa'ida's connections with Iraq...This was a subject about which he said he knew nothing and had difficulty even coming up with a story."'''
10:24:52 <darobin> 60% of Americans believe other Americans can make good political decisions? that's appalingly high!
10:25:47 <_bjoern> Well "can" I would not dispute so readily...
10:27:45 <_bjoern> "Al Libi indicated that his interrogators did not like his responses and then "placed him in a small box approximately 50cm X 50cm [20 inches x 20 inches]." He claimed he was held in the box for approximately 17 hours."
10:29:55 <_bjoern> http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/rendition701/video/video_index.html#reactions is pretty telling though
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10:35:07 <_bjoern> "At least he wasn't waterboarded." from the abc blog comments
10:36:31 <darobin> mmmm, waterboarding or spending 17h in a 50/50/50 box? tough call really
10:37:11 <sbp> they said 50 x 50!
10:37:25 <sbp> if it was 20 inches *cubed*, would he fit?
10:37:42 <sbp> 50 * 50 * anything would be quite bad enough
10:37:54 <_bjoern> Reminds me of the confused interrogators calling in daily asking "we can do x and we can do y, but is it legal to combine them???"
10:38:01 <sbp> heh, yeah
10:38:41 <_bjoern> (/me got that from http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/cheney/view/ )
10:40:17 <sbp> waterboarding might be the highest fun-name:evil-act ratio ever
10:41:48 <Talliesin> Loreal have a product called "Derma Genesis".
10:41:59 <_bjoern> .wik Water cure
10:42:02 <phenny> "Water cure (also known as water torture) is a form of torture which is intended to make the subject feel the sensation of drowning." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cure
10:42:08 <Talliesin> Which when you think about it should mean it causes spontaneous growths of skin.
10:42:19 <Talliesin> So it's like face-cankers in a can.
10:42:25 <Talliesin> "Because you're worth it".
10:44:25 <sbp> but... water is essential. why would you want to be cured of it?
10:44:30 <sbp> so waterboarding is still the more fun name
10:45:57 <_bjoern> Makes me think of surfboarding really
10:46:10 <sbp> yeah
10:46:23 <sbp> well, it makes me think of windsurfing for some unexplained reason
10:46:36 <sbp> w* plus the connotations perhaps
10:49:47 <sbp> whoo, I have query and isomorphism working
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11:07:24 <sbp> will have to do fun stuff like flexible canonicalisation at some point, probably
11:07:36 <sbp> that's going to be such a bastard
11:09:26 <sbp> ooh, and -
11:09:38 <sbp> diff = P - Q
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11:10:33 <sbp> for that I guess I have to get all subgraphs and then query 'em... hmm
11:10:47 <sbp> though I suppose there are grounding optimisations
11:10:52 <sbp> since I can just query ground graphs easily
11:11:01 <sbp> it only has to be var-connected subgraphs
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11:12:38 <sbp> I guess for an actual diff you want:
11:12:38 <sbp> def diff(A, B):
11:12:38 <sbp> added = B - A
11:12:38 <sbp> removed = A - B
11:12:38 <sbp> return added, removed
11:13:07 <sbp> A.diff(B)?
11:13:34 <sbp> probably best to return the order removed, added, too
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12:10:35 <_bjoern> .t -5
12:10:37 <phenny> Thu, 08 Nov 2007 07:41:05 -5
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12:31:34 <_bjoern> .title http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2207235,00.html
12:31:39 <phenny> _bjoern: Former IRA leader charged with tax evasion | The Guardian | Guardian Unlimited
12:32:43 <_bjoern> "More than one in five Germans would like to see the Berlin Wall rebuilt, a study published to coincide with the 18th anniversary of its fall shows." - http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,2207087,00.html
12:32:48 <_bjoern> Where do we sign up?
12:32:59 <_bjoern> "Only 3% of people who originated from East Germany said they were very satisfied with the way that German democracy worked."
12:33:42 <sbp> wow, expensive: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/newmedia/datafeed/catalogue.html
12:33:52 <sbp> especially since you can get similar data for free from NOAA
12:34:17 <_bjoern> £££
12:35:50 <sbp> the problem with the NOAA data is that it takes aaaaages to parse
12:36:01 <sbp> ô for a happy medium
12:36:40 <_bjoern> The first two news stories in my life that I have any memory of are the first protests in east germany and, some time later, a young nurse testifying somewhere on how enemy soldiers came into her hospitals, taking babies out of their incubators and taking the incubators with them.
12:37:06 <_bjoern> cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_Nayirah
12:37:56 <sbp> "It was not revealed until later that the girl was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States. Frieda Construe-Nag and Myra Ancog Cooke, two maternity nurses in that ward, later said that they had never seen Nayirah there and that the baby-dumping had never happened."
12:38:01 <sbp> ...
12:38:21 <sbp> America is just one great big atrocity after another, isn't it?
12:38:44 <_bjoern> So you are saying there actually is a "U.S." ...
12:38:55 <sbp> I don't recall saying "U.S."
12:39:15 <_bjoern> There are drugs against poor memory!
12:39:20 <sbp> hehe
12:40:03 <_bjoern> last week I read up on some evidence that the U.S. actually encouraged Hussein to invade Kuwait
12:40:16 <sbp> heh: http://farm.webc.srv-1.rs.webcoding.co.uk/feeds/newfeeds.htm
12:40:23 <sbp> ôrly?
12:40:32 <sbp> "PLZ WE NEED A WAR :("
12:40:32 <_bjoern> Saying they don't care at all about his border and oil production disputes with Kuwait in the week before the invasion.
12:41:20 <_bjoern> I mean, invading Kuwait without any such assurance isn't very smart, is it...
12:42:03 <_bjoern> ooh Lauri Fitz-Pegado is also involved with Jessica Lynch
12:42:49 <_bjoern> There Wikipedia has a nice heading, "Rescue/Hospital Retrieval"
12:42:52 <sbp> ooh! (What?)
12:46:24 * sbp looks at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_cities_in_England_by_population
12:48:49 <_bjoern> "The two Germanys were officially reunited the following October, to great national celebration, but the bill for unification has been put at €1.3 trillion and the merging of the two countries has not come without severe social problems."?
12:49:02 <_bjoern> Oh, I thought it's more like 10 trillion DM ...
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12:49:43 <sbp> what's 1.3TEUR in DM?
12:49:44 <_bjoern> Hello natacha29, welcome to #Swhack!
12:50:00 <_bjoern> .calc 1.3 trillion EUR times 1.96
12:50:03 <phenny> 1.3 trillion Euros times 1.96 = 3.7007152 trillion U.S. dollars
12:50:09 <_bjoern> ...
12:50:36 <_bjoern> seriously wtf!
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12:53:32 <_bjoern> .wik Teuro
12:53:36 <phenny> "Several linguistic issues have arisen in relation to the spelling of the words euro and cent in the many languages of the member states of the European Union, as well as in relation to grammar and the formation of plurals." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_issues_concerning_the_euro
12:54:09 <_bjoern> I should have asl'd natacha29, this Welcome line is not working at all.
12:54:47 <sbp> agreed
12:56:41 <sbp> alright, I wonder about cronning weather feeds for the top 50 cities and towns in the UK...
12:56:47 <sbp> made from Real American Data™
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12:57:54 <_bjoern> I suspect natacha29 is just darobin's female alter ego.
12:58:04 <sbp> hehe
12:58:25 <_bjoern> You need to launch SemWeather 2.0 and aggregate all the private weather station's data ala http://grafik.mannheim-wetter.info/
12:58:27 <sbp> so it's £240.88/city/year from the MET office
12:58:40 <sbp> and $0/city/year from NOAA
12:58:46 <sbp> and I want to publish 50 cities
12:58:49 <sbp> that's...
12:58:53 <sbp> .calc 240.88 * 50
12:58:56 <phenny> 240.88 * 50 = 12 044
12:59:07 <_bjoern> that's like 17 gazillion USD
12:59:08 <sbp> £12,044/city/year from the MET office, and...
12:59:12 <sbp> yeah
12:59:18 <sbp> .calc 0 * 50
12:59:20 <phenny> 0 * 50 = 0
12:59:29 <sbp> $0/city/year from NOAA
12:59:55 <sbp> grafik.mannheim-wetter.info is pretty awesome
13:00:00 <sbp> that's kinda what I want to enable people to do
13:00:09 <sbp> only without having to set up their own weather stations
13:00:12 <sbp> and, in FORECASE-MODE
13:00:17 <sbp> er, FORECAST
13:04:10 <_bjoern> "Democrats can stop the war now. All they need is 40 votes to filibuster the war funding. No funding, no war. But they rather use the war as a political bat to beat the republican's than get our troops out of harms way. Absolutely pathetic. I'm voting green from now on." - But they are both green! That's the whole point of Kang and Kodos running both for office!
13:04:49 *** qopi has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:09:59 <_bjoern> "Hold up, here: He made false statements that helped send us to war, but he's not liable in any way because he didn't make them while under oath? Would he get away with shooting somebody, as long as he wasn't under oath? Actually, I guess he already did..."
13:10:55 <sbp> in Ameeeehrica, first you do the crimes, then you take the oath of office
13:11:09 <sbp> (then you do more crimes, and change the law)
13:11:42 <_bjoern> Or draw the Pardoned By President Buddy card.
13:12:54 <sbp> YES!
13:14:15 <clsn> (but it's good that at least we impeached Clinton for something *important*, like having sex. Not some stupid triviality like going to war)
13:14:45 <sbp> yeah. not even sex sex, either, because that would also be trivial
13:14:52 <sbp> *oral* sex. the sexiest of sexes
13:15:33 <_bjoern> Actually for not having sex, right?
13:16:06 <_bjoern> '''Clinton didn't perjure. He asked for a court definition of "sex", was given one that specified mutual genital contact, and truthfully denied he had "sex". He gets a lot of heat for the (equally legit) "depends on what the definition of 'is' is", but really he did not perjure because it did depend on what the definition of "sex" was.''' - so at least according to /.
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13:16:47 <sbp> ah yes, there we go
13:16:54 <clsn> Yeah, but weasling on the definition of "torture" is a lot more reasonable.
13:17:27 <sbp> mutual genital contact...
13:17:40 <sbp> so if he'd just brushed up against her for half a second, that would be sex?
13:18:15 <clsn> I suppose that can be torture too, depending on the genitals...
13:18:21 <sbp> oh, "that specified". necessary but not sufficient perhaps
13:18:36 <sbp> I hate "necessary but not sufficient"
13:18:41 <sbp> it's such a stupid way to word it
13:18:56 <sbp> can't think of a better one right now, admittedly, but I'll bet there is one
13:19:02 <_bjoern> better than "sufficient but not necessary"
13:19:06 <sbp> yes
13:19:29 <clsn> From time to time, mutual genital contact probably is necessary, I'd say...
13:19:35 <sbp> Sonnenschein, Luftdruck, Yes We Have No Bananas
13:20:02 <_bjoern> .wik List of genitals
13:20:06 <phenny> "(580) Acute glomerulonephritis (580.9) Glomerulonephritis, acute, unspec." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ICD-9_codes_580-629:_Diseases_of_the_genitourinary_system
13:20:06 <sbp> hehe
13:20:22 <sbp> alright, weather feeds...
13:21:13 <_bjoern> two deaths involving "genitourinary" in 2004
13:22:13 <_bjoern> four people died from exposure to other specified factors in an unspecified place.
13:23:41 <sbp> ah, here we go: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-10-29#T12-09-11
13:23:41 <clsn> grumble. unspecified... I've been doing medical billing lately... some codes come up with things like "pain in abdomen, site unspecified". No it isn't unspecified! We just said it was IN THE ABDOMEN, duh...
13:24:06 <sbp> so basically I need to get degrib working on bia
13:24:10 <clsn> "urinary tract infection, site unspecified" -- um...maybe in the urinary tract?
13:24:17 <clsn> (I know, I know. But still)
13:24:21 <_bjoern> It could also have been in an industrial and construction area...
13:24:26 <sbp> then come the cron magics
13:27:50 <sbp> Step ONE!
13:27:51 <sbp> sbp@bia:~$ wget http://www.weather.gov/mdl/NDFD_GRIB2Decoder/download/degrib-src.tar.gz
13:28:23 <sbp> which inflates to degrib/, not degrib-src/
13:28:51 <sbp> installation instructions are at http://www.nws.noaa.gov/mdl/NDFD_GRIB2Decoder/howto.htm
13:29:19 * sbp has to use the Web Archive to view NOAA pages still...
13:30:45 <sbp> the Web Archive is *very* slow today
13:31:23 *** eel has quit (Remote closed the connection)
13:31:51 <sbp> .tock
13:31:53 <phenny> "Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:02:24 GMT" - tycho.usno.navy.mil
13:31:55 *** swhask (n=swhask@cpe-24-59-154-165.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
13:32:14 <sbp> logs are waaaayyy out again
13:32:21 *** eel (n=PircBot@cpe-24-59-154-165.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
13:32:21 <Monty> Thank goodness, eel is back!
13:32:23 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
13:32:29 <Monty> better news from http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/cheney/view/ ) = 3.7007152 trillion and taking babies out again
13:34:21 * sbp tries http://web.archive.org/*/http://www.nws.noaa.gov/mdl/NDFD_GRIB2Decoder/howto.php instead
13:36:06 <sbp> 1. Use "/degrib/src/configure" to create several Makefile's from the
13:36:06 <sbp> Makefile.in templates
13:37:19 <sbp> so, cd src && ./config-linux.sh
13:37:53 <sbp> oh, I should probably have specified some local config opts
13:38:15 <sbp> #!/bin/sh
13:38:15 <sbp> ./configure CFLAGS="-O3"
13:38:15 <sbp> #configure CFLAGS="-O3" TCL_PREFIX=/usr/local/tcltk
13:38:15 <sbp> config-linux.sh (END)
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13:39:54 <sbp> so...
13:39:54 <sbp> sbp@bia:~/degrib/src$ ./configure --prefix=/home/sbp/local CFLAGS="-O3"
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13:40:30 <sbp> and make...
13:40:57 <sbp> which will probably give some kind of an error because of suck
13:42:42 <sbp> long build process
13:43:24 <_bjoern> last time I used -O3 gcc made a terrible mess of Alexander...
13:43:35 <sbp> BAD GCC
13:43:39 <sbp> how is Alexander coming along?
13:44:02 <_bjoern> haven't touched it for ... a month now
13:44:06 <sbp> aw
13:44:42 <_bjoern> it's getting better and better all the time!
13:44:52 <sbp> even over the past month?
13:45:05 <sbp> are you writing it with some kind of genetic algorithm?
13:45:12 <_bjoern> in a way, yes.
13:45:17 <sbp> ...hmm...
13:45:20 <_bjoern> Well I think issues through before coding.
13:45:29 <sbp> ah right
13:45:31 <sbp> also, whee:
13:45:32 <sbp> tcldegrib.c:1083: error: expected ‘)’ before ‘clientData’
13:45:32 <sbp> tcldegrib.c:1227: error: expected ‘)’ before ‘clientData’
13:45:32 <sbp> tcldegrib.c:1276: error: expected ‘)’ before ‘*’ token
13:45:32 <sbp> make[1]: *** [tcldegrib.o] Error 1
13:45:34 <sbp> make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/sbp/degrib/src/degrib'
13:45:38 <sbp> make: *** [degrib/degrib] Error 2
13:45:42 <sbp> but this happened last time too. I think it may still have compiled anyway...
13:45:53 <sbp> yep! great
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13:46:36 <sbp> sbp@bia:~$ ~/local/bin/degrib | head -n 1
13:46:36 <sbp> usage: /home/sbp/local/bin/degrib [input GRIB file (optional)] [options]
13:46:38 <sbp> winz
13:46:47 <sbp> now I need to write some script to get all the dataz I need...
13:46:56 <sbp> hmm. what dataz do I need, anyway?
13:47:03 <sbp> temperature and Other Stuff
13:49:08 <_bjoern> .title http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-11-06-watchlist_N.htm
13:49:10 <phenny> _bjoern: 15,000 want off the U.S. terror watch list - USATODAY.com
13:49:23 <_bjoern> you'd think more of them want off...
13:49:59 <_bjoern> "Among those who have been flagged at checkpoints: toddlers and senior citizens with the same names as suspected terrorists on the watch list. "
13:50:06 <_bjoern> .gc "terror toddler"
13:50:09 <phenny> "terror toddler": 326
13:50:20 <_bjoern> just a small minority then, nothing to see there.
13:50:52 <sbp> hmm. I think I'll just use the latest gfs.t06z files and do it once a day
13:52:28 * Arnia_ blinks
13:52:31 <Arnia_> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7083878.stm
13:52:34 <phenny> Arnia_: BBC NEWS | Politics | Cameron launches 'co-op movement'
13:52:37 *** Arnia_ is now known as Arnia
13:53:07 <_bjoern> sounds like Gleichschaltung...
13:53:39 <_bjoern> "Such schools would be tax-funded but owned by parents and local communities." - so privatizing eduction. nice.
13:53:45 <_bjoern> eduction!
13:54:37 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "NOAA Data Fieldnames" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/50522
13:54:39 <Arnia> I have no object to the decentralisation of things like this
13:54:51 <sbp> TMP is Temperature...
13:55:07 <Arnia> I'm just amazed that a Tory would have the gall to call something a co-op
13:55:53 <sbp> ah, http://dss.ucar.edu/datasets/ds083.2/inventories/sample_wgrib.html gives namez
13:56:31 <_bjoern> TMP could also indicate the weather data is just temporary...
14:01:45 <edsu> sbp: what'cha doing with that weather data?
14:02:54 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "NOAA Fieldname Descriptions" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/50523
14:03:16 <sbp> edsu: exporting it in an easier to parse form for 50 UK cities and towns
14:05:07 <sbp> hmm. I don't think there's any actual precipitation field
14:05:17 <sbp> there's only PWAT - Precipitable water [kg/m^2]
14:05:30 <sbp> which according to http://amsglossary.allenpress.com/glossary/search?id=precipitable-water1 apparently isn't what I need for that
14:05:55 <Arnia> .title http://programming.reddit.com/info/5zshz/comments/
14:06:02 <Arnia> (via danja)
14:06:03 <phenny> Arnia: programming: Category Theory for the Java Programmer
14:06:29 * danja_ had a look at the Pierce book this morning
14:06:35 <danja_> bloomin' hard work
14:06:49 <danja_> so many bits & pieces
14:08:04 <sbp> yikes. how do you calculate wind speed from meridional and zonal wind speeds?
14:08:15 <danja_> yikes!
14:08:44 <danja_> oh wait - add the vectors?
14:08:54 <sbp> ah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_speed#Speed_and_velocity
14:09:02 <sbp> |\mathbf{v}|=\sqrt{u^2+v^2+w^2},
14:09:15 <cre8radix> thelsdj: there?
14:09:25 <sbp> danja_: |v| = root(u^2 + v^2 + w^2)
14:09:45 <sbp> so the root of the sum of the squares of the meridional, zonal, and vertical wind speeds
14:10:12 <sbp> though it doesn't give vertical
14:10:14 <sbp> UGRD - u wind [m/s]
14:10:14 <sbp> VGRD - v wind [m/s]
14:10:19 <sbp> just meridional and zonal
14:10:36 <sbp> u is zonal, v is meridional
14:10:43 <_bjoern> µorizontal and vertical?
14:10:46 <sbp> w is vertical, not v, just to be confusing
14:10:47 <sbp> heh
14:10:55 <sbp> wertical. works in German
14:11:10 <_bjoern> german would actually be "vertikal"
14:11:15 <sbp> ooh
14:11:35 <sbp> what's the difference between w and v then?
14:11:47 <sbp> hmm, w is the same as English w sometimes...
14:12:11 <_bjoern> .gc double-v
14:12:13 <phenny> double-v: 471,000
14:12:28 <_bjoern> err hmm the pronounciation is a little bit different?
14:13:30 <_bjoern> de:v is more like en:f than de:w is...
14:13:51 <sbp> hmm
14:14:01 <danja_> sbp, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_(spatial)#Length_of_a_vector
14:14:16 <sbp> so I can get pressure, humidity, cloud cover, temperature, and wind speed...
14:14:59 <sbp> oh, add the vectors. fair enough
14:15:27 <danja_> well, it's squeezing out the magnitude...
14:15:49 <sbp> I see
14:15:52 <sbp> scalarising
14:16:01 * danja_ demonstrates with a bag of vectors ready prepared
14:16:06 <danja_> yup
14:16:07 <sbp> hehe
14:16:17 <danja_> ew, messy
14:16:33 <sbp> I'm kinda sad that I can't get precipitation levels
14:16:58 <danja_> where from?
14:17:04 <sbp> from this NOAA data
14:17:08 <danja_> ah
14:17:09 <sbp> NOAA grib files
14:17:12 * danja_ scrolls
14:18:00 <danja_> grib is a good word
14:18:27 <danja_> .g define: grib
14:18:28 <sbp> hmm. Short term precipitation forecast from Precipitable Water Vapor (PWV)
14:18:30 <phenny> define: grib: sorry, no results were found.
14:18:34 <sbp> try .gd
14:18:41 <danja_> .gd grib
14:18:43 <phenny> grib: GRIB (GRIdded Binary) is a mathematically concise data format commonly used in meteorology to store historical and forecasted weather data. ...
14:19:08 <danja_> yay
14:19:22 <danja_> hmm, a bloke down the valley has a little weather station hooked up to a pc - wonder if he uses that
14:19:53 <sbp> oh, hmm. D=2003050100:APCP:sfc:0-6hr acc:"Total precipitation [kg/m^2]
14:19:59 <danja_> what I saw all looked very windowsy though, might have been 100% proprietary
14:21:33 <danja_> spottin'/drizzlin'/pourin'/bucketin'/cats & bleedin' dogs, mate
14:21:39 <sbp> also 59 : PRATE : kg/m/m/s : precipitaiton rate
14:21:42 <sbp> hehe
14:22:46 <sbp> I suppose I could try to get APCP | PRATE
14:22:50 <sbp> and just give a binary
14:26:59 <sbp> so, subtypes
14:27:06 <sbp> looks like TMP:sfc is surface temperature
14:27:15 <sbp> I'd been getting TMP:1000 mb
14:27:23 <_bjoern> "The administration also argues that if the lawsuits, coordinated by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy group know as EEF," - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/us/07nsa.html?ref=us
14:27:32 <sbp> oh, TMP:2 m above gnd
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14:27:54 <sbp> and RH:2 m above gnd, UGRD:10 m above gnd, VGRD:10 m above gnd
14:28:44 <sbp> PRES:sfc seems right
14:30:02 <sbp> so, in summary, I want:
14:30:03 <sbp> APCP
14:30:03 <sbp> PRATE
14:30:03 <sbp> PRES:sfc
14:30:03 <sbp> RH:2 m above gnd
14:30:04 <sbp> TCDC
14:30:06 <sbp> TMP:2 m above gnd
14:30:08 <sbp> UGRD:10 m above gnd
14:30:10 <sbp> VGRD:10 m above gnd
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14:31:47 <sbp> so, e.g.
14:31:48 <sbp> $ ./get_inv.pl http://nomad3.ncep.noaa.gov/pub/gfs/rotating/gfs.t06z.pgrbf00.inv | egrep ':APCP:|:PRATE:|:PRES:sfc:|:RH:2 m above gnd:|:TCDC:|:TMP:2 m above gnd:|:UGRD:10 m above gnd:|:VGRD:10 m above gnd:'
14:31:48 <sbp> 200:19784526:d=2007110806:PRES:sfc:anl:NAve=0:range=19784526-19914929
14:31:48 <sbp> 212:20540864:d=2007110806:TMP:2 m above gnd:anl:NAve=0:range=20540864-20654977
14:31:48 <sbp> 214:20752802:d=2007110806:RH:2 m above gnd:anl:NAve=0:range=20752802-20809899
14:31:48 <sbp> 215:20809900:d=2007110806:UGRD:10 m above gnd:anl:NAve=0:range=20809900-20915867
14:31:50 <sbp> 216:20915868:d=2007110806:VGRD:10 m above gnd:anl:NAve=0:range=20915868-21021835
14:31:52 <sbp> 224:21584426:d=2007110806:TCDC:convect-cld layer:anl:NAve=0:range=21584426-21584509
14:32:38 <sbp> and then that'll make a shitrude grib file...
14:32:49 <sbp> using ./get_grib.pl
14:33:08 <sbp> rather, dozens of shitrude grib files
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14:33:29 <Jabberwo1k> say it
14:33:32 <sbp> it
14:33:37 <Jabberwo1k> shitrude
14:33:44 <sbp> SHITRUDE>
14:34:01 <Arnia> oooh... I finally am beginning to understand McBride's work on differentiating data structures (thanks to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorial_species )
14:34:05 <Jabberwo1k> I don't know what it is but it feels almighty.
14:34:15 <Arnia> danja: thanks for the chain of references :)
14:35:04 <sbp> so, theoretically, this should work:
14:35:05 <sbp> $ for ((i=0; i<=90; i=i+3))
14:35:05 <sbp> ./get_inv.pl http://nomad3.ncep.noaa.gov/pub/gfs/rotating/gfs.t06z.pgrbf$i.inv | egrep ':APCP:|:PRATE:|:PRES:sfc:|:RH:2 m above gnd:|:TCDC:|:TMP:2 m above gnd:|:UGRD:10 m above gnd:|:VGRD:10 m above gnd:' | ./get_grib.pl http://nomad3.ncep.noaa.gov/pub/gfs/rotating/gfs.t06z.pgrbf$i $i.grib
14:35:05 <sbp> done
14:35:25 <Jabberwo1k> Arnia: What are you doing with that info?
14:35:30 <danja_> Arnia, thank you for leading me to more incomprehensible notation ;-)
14:36:21 <Jabberwo1k> sbp: thikn you forgot 'do'
14:36:24 <Jabberwo1k> think
14:36:31 <Jabberwo1k> Unless you're in csh or tcsh
14:36:48 <sbp> oh yes, thanks!
14:36:49 <Arnia> danja_: someone I knew a couple of years ago messaged me on facebook telling me about your post (strangely, he is an economist so I'm not sure what feed he got your post on)
14:36:55 <Jabberwo1k> np
14:37:06 *** Jabberwo1k is now known as Jabberwock
14:37:12 <Arnia> danja_: the reddit thread is interesting though
14:37:47 <Arnia> Jabberwock: thinking about the interplay between inference rules and having 'holes' in logical structures
14:38:22 <Jabberwock> Just to learn?
14:38:51 <Arnia> Jabberwock: to give a categorical account of partial knowledge
14:39:03 <Jabberwock> :)
14:39:15 <Arnia> It might work, it might not. Worth a punt though, since my previous approaches definitely aren't working
14:39:26 *** nnm (n=irssi@unnamedservice.com) has joined #swhack
14:39:29 <Jabberwock> Are you working on a paper or is this just for fun?
14:40:26 <Arnia> Uh, this is my job :p
14:40:40 <Arnia> It is also fun, but even if it weren't it would still be my job
14:41:07 <Jabberwock> I don't know what you do :P
14:41:24 <Jabberwock> That's why I'm asking. This stuff is a lot more interesting to me than what I currently do for a living
14:41:39 <Arnia> I'm a research student
14:42:24 <sbp> wow, this is slow
14:42:41 <sbp> it's done 0, 3, and 6, and it's working on 9
14:42:47 <sbp> and it's got to do up to 90 in steps of 3
14:43:02 <sbp> a tenth of the way, I guess
14:43:16 * Arnia boings at sbp
14:43:21 <Jabberwock> Yay perl
14:43:24 <Jabberwock> Arnia: Very cool
14:43:48 <sbp> Ҩ
14:44:34 <sbp> .calc 1052608 bytes in KB
14:44:37 <phenny> 1 052 608 bytes = 1 027.9375 kilobytes
14:44:45 <sbp> they're all about 1 MB, too
14:44:49 <sbp> so it'll be 90MB of data
14:45:09 <sbp> at least I'm only excerpting the fields that I need...
14:45:37 <Arnia> Jabberwock: I'm a sucker for a unifying idea though... one neat abstraction that captures lots of different domains at the same time.
14:46:18 <Jabberwock> I have a small grasp of what you're talking about. It sounds very fascinating.
14:49:54 <sbp> er, 30MB of data rather. heh
14:52:38 <sbp> hmm, then I just need to do degrib $input -P -pnt 51.5,-0.12 (or whatever)
14:52:40 <Jabberwock> Perl is handy for tasks like this
14:52:42 <Jabberwock> but I still don't like it
14:52:45 <sbp> and then I have some lovely text to parse
14:52:46 <Jabberwock> s/but/and
14:52:57 <sbp> yeah. I'm only using perl because they were downloadable scripts
14:53:05 <sbp> in fact, one of the scripts in here is a python script...
14:53:21 <sbp> I'm not sure if it's for something else that the suite can do, or if one of the perl scripts calls it...
14:53:44 <Jabberwock> Hmmm
14:53:50 <Jabberwock> Use ruby :D
14:54:05 * sbp readies the spork
14:54:50 <Jabberwock> I like python too :) I just don't know the API well enough to code confidently
14:55:30 <Jabberwock> My favorite thing about python syntax so far is that you don't need 'end' for every block and function
14:56:15 <sbp> indeed
14:56:25 <sbp> if you're massively nested, that does become a pita in ruby
14:56:46 <Jabberwock> yeah. I always put comments # @users.each...
14:56:51 <sbp> forecast$ time ./getgribs.sh
14:56:51 <sbp> real 16m24.362s
14:56:51 <sbp> user 0m1.092s
14:56:51 <sbp> sys 0m1.304s
14:56:54 <sbp> not too bad...
14:57:02 <Jabberwock> What CPU?
14:57:15 <sbp> that's all it reported
14:57:25 <Jabberwock> I mean model/speed
14:57:33 <sbp> ô, iuno
14:57:41 <Jabberwock> lol
14:57:49 <Arnia> .title http://reperiendi.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/the-problem-of-evil-and-cartesian-categories/
14:57:52 <phenny> Arnia: Cartesian categories and the problem of evil « reperiendi
14:57:53 <sbp> it's crschmidt's box, ask him :-)
14:58:04 <sbp> $ uname -a
14:58:04 <sbp> Linux bia 2.6.18-4-k7 #1 SMP Mon Mar 26 17:57:15 UTC 2007 i686 GNU/Linux
14:58:20 <sbp> I think it's a 2GHz somethingorother
14:58:28 <Jabberwock> grep MHz /proc/cpuinfo
14:59:00 <Jabberwock> hmm same kernel I'm using
14:59:23 <laplink> .title http://www.houseind.com/index.php?page=showfont&id=612&subpage=neutra2features
14:59:26 <phenny> laplink: House Industries
14:59:43 <crschmidt> It's a 1.8GHz AMD of some kind
14:59:46 * sbp tries:
14:59:46 <sbp> #!/bin/bash
14:59:46 <sbp> DEGRIB=/home/sbp/local/bin/degrib
14:59:47 <sbp> for fn in *.grib
14:59:47 <sbp> do $DEGRIB $fn -P -pnt 51.5,-0.12 > London.${fn%.grib}.txt
14:59:47 <sbp> done
14:59:52 <crschmidt> cpu MHz : 1826.151
15:00:06 <Jabberwock> right on
15:00:24 <sbp> crschmidt: how'd you get it to print that infoez?
15:00:50 <crschmidt> sbp: cat /proc/cpuinfo, like Jabberwock said
15:00:55 <sbp> wow:
15:00:56 <sbp> forecast$ time ./degrib.sh
15:00:56 <sbp> real 0m11.120s
15:00:56 <sbp> user 0m9.461s
15:00:56 <sbp> sys 0m0.184s
15:00:59 <sbp> oh, sry
15:01:08 <crschmidt> .eval open('/proc/cpuinfo').readlines()[6]
15:01:11 <phenny> 'cpu MHz\t\t: 1826.151\n'
15:01:27 <sbp> hehe
15:02:26 <sbp> hmm
15:02:27 <sbp> APCP, [inch], 200711080600, 200711080900, 0.001
15:02:27 <sbp> TCDC, [%], 200711080600, 200711080900, 100.000
15:02:27 <sbp> TCDC, [%], 200711080600, 200711080900, 35.000
15:02:27 <sbp> TCDC, [%], 200711080600, 200711080900, 0.000
15:02:31 <sbp> this needs some clearing up
15:03:09 <Jabberwock> the leading spaces?
15:03:13 <sbp> at least it's giving an APCP
15:03:19 <sbp> nope, the multiple TCDC results
15:03:25 <sbp> clearly I need to select a subtype
15:04:35 <sbp> this is quite fun
15:04:49 <sbp> PEOPLE AND ORGANIZATIONS I WOULD LIKE TO THANK:
15:04:51 <sbp> * NOAA
15:04:53 <sbp> * crschmidt
15:05:59 <sbp> the degribbing is actually so fast that it might be worth... hmm. no
15:06:03 <sbp> better bake anyway
15:07:22 *** idickinson has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:08:46 <sbp> also, funny that APCP is being measures in inches
15:08:47 *** idickinson (n=ijd@85-211-146-219.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #swhack
15:09:00 <sbp> alright, let's see what TCDC subtypes there are...
15:09:07 <Arnia> danja_: it is worth reading up on combinatorial species I think (from what I've read so far) because not only does it unify childhood calculus with some powerful ideas from data structures, but it also provides tools for complexity analysis
15:10:00 <sbp> low, mid, high, atmos...
15:10:09 <sbp> convert, boundary
15:10:14 <sbp> er, convect
15:11:25 *** mmmmmrob has quit ()
15:11:57 <_bjoern> Instead of thanking people you should go:
15:12:02 <_bjoern> I am not a man of many words.
15:12:11 <sbp> hehe. who's that after?
15:12:11 <_bjoern> And in conclusion I would like to say, ...
15:13:09 <_bjoern> Jack O'Neill
15:13:32 *** chimezie (n=chimezie@63.119.44.103) has joined #swhack
15:13:56 <_bjoern> [[[
15:13:59 <_bjoern> [Carter and O’Neill shake hands and salute. Smiling, Carter returns to her place with the rest of SG1 amid more applause.]
15:13:59 <_bjoern> HAMMOND
15:13:59 <_bjoern> In closing, Major Carter's supervisor, Colonel Jack O'Neill, would like to say a few words.
15:13:59 <_bjoern> [O'Neill takes the stand, to more applause.]
15:13:59 <_bjoern> O'NEILL
15:14:00 <_bjoern> Normally, I'm a man of very few words…
15:14:02 <_bjoern> [He abruptly disappears in a flash of light. The assembled personnel look around in surprise and confusion.]
15:14:04 <_bjoern> HAMMOND
15:14:06 <_bjoern> Code 9!
15:14:08 <_bjoern> [Alarms sound as security personnel run to take up position.]
15:14:10 <_bjoern> INT-ASGARD SHIP IN ORBIT ABOVE EARTH
15:14:12 <_bjoern> O'NEILL
15:14:14 <_bjoern> And in conclusion, I'd like to say…
15:14:16 <_bjoern> [He stops as he realises he is no longer in the SGC and begins to look around. There is another flash of light and an Asgard appears in a chair opposite.]
15:14:19 <_bjoern> ASGARD
15:14:21 <_bjoern> Greetings, Jack O'Neill.
15:14:23 <_bjoern> O'NEILL
15:14:25 <_bjoern> Greetings. Have we met?
15:14:27 <_bjoern> ASGARD
15:14:29 <_bjoern> I am Thor.
15:14:31 <_bjoern> ]]]
15:14:35 <sbp> awesome
15:14:56 *** l7 (n=l7@evil-wire.org) has joined #swhack
15:15:27 <Jabberwock> </matrix>
15:15:39 <_bjoern> Idiot.
15:16:17 <sbp> it seems I need atmos col
15:16:46 * sbp gets the gribs all over again...
15:16:53 <Jabberwock> _bjoern: Matrix made more money than all of our salaries combined. You could have taken that is a compliment and not responded with 'idiot'
15:17:08 <sbp> meanwhile! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_and_cities_in_England_by_population
15:17:27 <Jabberwock> And I was teasing you. It's actually a cool scene. If you wrote that you have my compliments.
15:17:47 <Jabberwock> I love Norse mythology.
15:18:17 <_bjoern> ooh free porn http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/08/fox-attacks-decencywith-bill-oreilly-leading-the-way/
15:18:34 <Jabberwock> That asshole
15:19:05 <Jabberwock> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ce/IMG_053589.JPG
15:19:09 <Jabberwock> neat
15:19:14 <Jabberwock> That's in Hull?
15:20:08 <Jabberwock> FOOKING LIVAR'POOL SHOULD BE FIRST!!!!
15:20:39 <Jabberwock> You fooking london ginger boys. Who stole my darts?
15:26:42 *** SinDoc (n=skh@49.106-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #swhack
15:29:33 <clsn> _bjoern: wow. I suppose I don't particularly mind the smut, but the holier-than-thou attitude when they are in fact doing all this is annoying.
15:34:18 *** nsh (n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh) has joined #swhack
15:37:31 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "Coördinates of the 50 Largest English Cities" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/50525
15:39:15 * nsh starts preparing his testimony against sbp to avoid gitmo
15:43:31 <nsh> .head http://news.bbc.co.uk/
15:43:34 <phenny> Status: 200 (for more, try ".head uri header")
15:43:36 <sbp> heh, heh
15:43:39 *** Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
15:43:51 <sbp> all in the name of science
15:43:55 <nsh> aye
15:44:04 * nsh sulks
15:44:07 <nsh> why does nothing work?
15:44:13 <sbp> can't connect to BBC?
15:44:19 <sbp> I've had that problem once or twice recently
15:44:21 <nsh> no web at all, again
15:44:23 <sbp> just try again in a bit
15:44:26 <sbp> ah, bummer
15:44:31 <nsh> and my dvd drive doesn't work
15:44:39 <nsh> and the little green line on my screen is getting wider
15:45:02 <nsh> and pcworld's call centre is more populated with fail than with people
15:45:19 * nsh smiles
15:45:42 <sbp> populated with fail?
15:45:49 <sbp> PC World, Call Centre
15:45:51 <sbp> Population: FAIL
15:45:57 <nsh> hehe
15:46:06 <nsh> i should make them a sign
15:46:10 <nsh> i'm gonna make them a sign
15:46:17 <sbp> do that thang
15:46:26 <sbp> (and show us when you're done!)
15:46:52 <nsh> mmm, i'll probably just read something instead
15:46:57 <sbp> heheh
15:47:15 <nsh> i need to get back into the habit of making things outside of my imagination
15:48:25 *** Arnia_ (n=jgeldart@client-81-107-218-184.glfd.adsl.virgin.net) has joined #swhack
15:49:29 <nsh> heh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Psychogeographical_Association
15:49:40 <sbp> .eval '°'
15:49:42 <phenny> '\xc2\xb0'
15:50:03 *** qopi has quit (Remote closed the connection)
15:50:46 *** Morbus (n=morbus@c-24-34-64-110.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
15:51:58 <nsh> ah well, fuck the internet. i'll just have my fix of redundant and repetative inanity from Stephen Wolfram
15:52:24 <Arnia_> Fie!
15:52:30 <nsh> who at least had the decency to make up for his book's physical weight by its intellectual levity
15:52:47 <darobin> now that's one sweet thing to say
15:54:53 <sbp> okay, degribbing all FIFTY
15:56:22 <darobin> c'mon silly oil price, go up, shoo shoo
15:56:27 <sbp> hehe
15:56:34 <sbp> one more day for you
15:56:58 <darobin> 22 hours
15:57:08 <sbp> 22.5 HOURS
15:57:14 <danja> llo olo oll loo llo lol (at Stephen Wolfram)
15:57:31 <darobin> UK time, yes
15:57:35 <darobin> right, good
15:58:14 <darobin> I guess I could bomb an oil refinery tonight
15:58:25 *** Arnia has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:58:34 * sbp starts preparing his testimony against darobin to avoid gitmo
15:58:54 <darobin> gitmo?
15:59:03 <_bjoern> .wik Gitmo
15:59:06 <phenny> "Guantánamo Bay Naval Base at the southeastern end of Cuba has been used by the United States Navy for more than a century, and is the oldest overseas U.S. Navy Base and the only one in a country with which the United States does not have diplomatic relations.[1]| The [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gitmo
15:59:13 *** alienbrain has quit ("Leaving")
15:59:31 <darobin> ah, didn't know the nick
15:59:47 <_bjoern> but why, bombing oil refineries is okay, it increases profits for their owners.
15:59:52 <darobin> I don't think they accept French pensionners do they?
16:00:06 <sbp> I don't think there are any limits
16:00:41 <Arnia_> They could pension French prisoners
16:00:45 *** Arnia_ is now known as Arnia
16:00:53 <darobin> I guess they might take frogs now that we've supplanted the UK as BFFs
16:00:54 <Arnia> Ooh... oho
16:01:10 <sbp> BFF? oho?
16:01:25 <Arnia> There is a link between n-categories and n-dimensional spaces
16:01:45 <darobin> Best Friends Forever?
16:01:59 <sbp> no way. because of Sarkozy sucking up?
16:02:09 <sbp> $ time ./degrib.sh
16:02:09 <sbp> real 7m5.147s
16:02:09 <sbp> user 5m8.239s
16:02:09 <sbp> sys 0m7.292s
16:02:15 <sbp> not too bad
16:02:22 <darobin> and Gordon being less of a lapdog than Tony? yeah
16:03:03 *** [ruiner]_ is now known as [ruiner]
16:03:30 <danja> Gordon looks more like the kind of dog that lies on the hearthrug, licking his balls & farting
16:03:42 <sbp> ahahaha
16:03:53 <sbp> <3
16:04:25 <darobin> there's an undeniable truth there somewhere
16:04:36 <_bjoern> I can deny all truths.
16:04:45 <sbp> can't
16:04:50 <_bjoern> NO, U !
16:04:57 <darobin> can you deny that you can deny all truths?
16:05:00 <sbp> U >8(
16:05:06 <_bjoern> 咒
16:05:09 <sbp> ㋡
16:06:16 <_bjoern> ռօ֣ս
16:07:45 <darobin> I thought as much
16:07:54 <darobin> Monty: have you wished _bjoern a happy birthday?
16:07:56 <Monty> atmos desires doppelgangers!
16:08:04 <darobin> _bjoern: you what, 25?
16:08:07 <thelsdj> http://www.lefthandedtoons.com/124/
16:08:12 *** Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
16:08:16 <_bjoern> how about 21?
16:08:20 <darobin> 21?
16:08:27 <_bjoern> deal!
16:08:29 <darobin> nah
16:08:43 <darobin> you went into military service when I was much, much teh younger
16:08:56 <sbp> it's Germany!
16:08:57 <_bjoern> germany has child soldiers.
16:08:58 <sbp> they put toddlers in tanks
16:09:17 <_bjoern> I served under Göring, in fact.
16:09:21 <sbp> hehe
16:09:24 *** Morbus (n=morbus@c-24-34-64-110.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
16:09:30 <_bjoern> it's true!
16:09:37 *** Morbus has quit (Remote closed the connection)
16:09:42 <darobin> Monty: hit _bjoern
16:09:46 <Monty> In conclusion, normal mathematical slum loves quiet docile allotments!
16:10:12 <darobin> where has Captain Caveman gone? we need him badly these days
16:10:25 <sbp> so should I use datatypes or interpretation properties... hmm...
16:10:44 <_bjoern> Got smoked out of his cave by your friendly burger eating invasing monkeys?
16:10:59 *** Morbus (n=morbus@c-24-34-64-110.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
16:11:54 <darobin> they are monkeys too?
16:12:04 <sbp> invasing = the mess created when you go to type invasion and end up wanting to type invading?
16:13:10 <_bjoern> to invase = putting someone in a 50cm x 50cm vase.
16:13:17 <sbp> heheh
16:13:47 <sbp> that makes so much sense that I'm not even sure whether it was intentional or a typo anymore
16:15:34 <darobin> it was inventional
16:15:41 <sbp> BAD
16:15:57 <_bjoern> look how long darobin worked on that one!
16:16:01 <darobin> NO, FUCKING GOOD
16:16:10 <darobin> hey, I just came back!
16:16:12 <darobin> unfair!
16:16:35 <_bjoern> You should have spent more time on that excuse!
16:16:56 <darobin> I need no excuse
16:17:14 <darobin> I met a cuse once and she was the one
16:17:22 <darobin> never left
16:17:32 <_bjoern> you need more booze.
16:17:38 <darobin> well duh
16:17:41 <darobin> who doesn't?
16:18:12 <darobin> maybe if you left your Manhole sometimes and came visit nice places like Paris I'd get more booze
16:18:31 <darobin> or maybe we should have SwhackCon
16:18:34 <darobin> in Brighton
16:18:45 <_bjoern> this is nice http://media.opentur.it/WEB/CHANNELS/SPRINTOURS/CMS/IMAGES/BODYIMAGES/globo_baleari.gif
16:18:49 <darobin> or somewhere similarly desolate
16:18:56 <_bjoern> many many colors and no U.S. in sight.
16:20:16 <Arnia> darobin: Middlesborough
16:20:19 <_bjoern> http://www.invase.com.br/imgs%5Clogo_invase.gif
16:22:31 <sbp> .compare pascals millibars fahrenheit celcius percent
16:22:34 <sbp> .compare metres-Per-Second knots degrees inches
16:22:36 <phenny> percent (250,000,000), fahrenheit (15,600,000), celcius (1,720,000), pascals (547,000), millibars (528,000)
16:22:38 <darobin> Arnia: if you're ready to go full on in desolation I'd vote Leiden, NL
16:22:38 <phenny> degrees (152,000,000), inches (118,000,000), knots (17,400,000), metres-Per-Second (229,000)
16:22:56 <darobin> I was suggesting Brighton mostly because the name might fool the innocent
16:24:29 <Arnia> We could simply drop _bjoern in Slough or, if he like excitement of the gun sort, Nottingham
16:24:49 <sbp> he was a soldier. of course he does
16:24:59 <darobin> I'm not sure he'd notice the difference with his hometown
16:25:36 <Arnia> ah
16:26:29 <darobin> anyway, I need to go off to prepare food for my darling, lest she starve to death
16:26:31 * darobin waves
16:27:25 <sbp> enjoi!
16:27:32 <darobin> I will, ta :)
16:27:39 <sbp> .calc 43.862 F in C
16:27:42 <phenny> 43.86200 degrees Fahrenheit = 6.59 degrees Celsius
16:28:14 <danja> Nottingham is good, I once went to a giant vegetable show in Nottingham
16:29:16 <danja> (we went because there didn't seem like much else to do - turned out to be brilliant, 10ft-long parsnips etc)
16:29:24 *** Talliesin has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:29:37 *** Talliesin (n=Talliesi@83.70.80.115) has joined #swhack
16:29:55 <Jabberwock> Wow.
16:30:06 *** Morbus is now known as whee
16:30:14 *** whee is now known as Morbus
16:31:37 <Arnia> We need more 10ft parsnips
16:31:41 <Arnia> Cure world famine
16:31:44 <_bjoern> NO, U !
16:31:48 <Arnia> Or at least make good crisps
16:32:56 <Jabberwock> I'd starve to death
16:33:09 <_bjoern> We'd be grateful!
16:33:15 <thelsdj> .title http://wbztv.com/topstories/local_story_311204852.html
16:33:18 <phenny> thelsdj: wbztv.com - Boston Priest Charged With Stalking Conan O'Brien
16:33:27 <Jabberwock> _bjoern: "We'd" ?
16:33:41 <Jabberwock> I'd eat you first though. Both of you.
16:34:21 <sbp> okay, for those who are wondering:
16:34:27 <sbp> 0.002in/3hours = drizzle
16:34:37 <sbp> 0.063in/3hours = pissing it down
16:34:37 <Jabberwock> lol nice
16:35:07 <thelsdj> thats 0.061 more!
16:35:23 <sbp> yup
16:35:23 <Jabberwock> So you can't piss a drizzle?
16:35:36 <Jabberwock> Well you can't piss 'down' a drizzle
16:36:12 * _bjoern has a closer look on http://www.invase.com.br/
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16:40:38 <Arnia> both?
16:40:48 * Arnia takes Jabberwock's homotopy class
16:41:16 <Jabberwock> 12:03 < _bjoern> We'd be grateful!
16:41:17 * Arnia continuously deforms him into a US doughnut and dunks him in some hot chocolate
16:41:32 <Jabberwock> That's just wrong.
16:42:03 <Arnia> My hobby: Taking ludicrously abstract mathematical concepts and turning them into methods of torture.
16:42:04 <Jabberwock> (but worth the hot chocolate)
16:42:20 <Jabberwock> Didn't Archemides do that?
16:42:28 <Jabberwock> Archimedes
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16:43:38 <Arnia> Nah, he just slept around a lot
16:43:43 <Arnia> Was famous for screwing
16:43:48 * Arnia ducks and hides
16:43:55 <sbp> BAD
16:44:08 <Jabberwock> May the wrath of Rhodes haunt your dreams!!
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16:45:02 <Jabberwock> Why did I associate Archimedes with Rhodes?
16:45:05 * Jabberwock wonders
16:45:28 <Arnia> Gary Rhodes?
16:45:53 <Jabberwock> lol
16:46:03 <Arnia> I can see the link
16:46:14 <Arnia> Obtuse, but present
16:47:13 <Jabberwock> Didn't Archimedes have something to do with the mythological battle at Rhodes?
16:47:34 <Jabberwock> .wik Colossus of Rhodes
16:47:37 <phenny> "The Colossus of Rhodes was a huge statue of the Greek god Helios, erected on the Greek island of Rhodes by Chares of Lindos between 292 and 280 BC." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Rhodes
16:48:05 <Jabberwock> Evidently not
16:48:29 <Jabberwock> .wik Siege of Rhodes
16:48:32 <phenny> "Siege of Rhodes (305 BC/304 BC) is one of the most famous sieges in ancient history." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Rhodes
16:48:41 <Arnia> phenny: helpful as always
16:48:47 <Arnia> Well, more helpful than Monty
16:48:50 <Monty> It's scary when you regularly suck juice!
16:48:58 <Arnia> Monty: NO YUO!
16:48:59 <Jabberwock> haha
16:49:02 <Monty> Greetings. Have No funding, no web at ???1.3 trillion Euros times 1.96
16:49:14 <Arnia> Monty: that's a lot of money to ask for
16:49:14 <sbp> ooh, dis
16:49:16 <Monty> It might work, it would sortof depend on bia
16:49:19 <Jabberwock> Monty: Go help Tucker in the basement
16:49:19 <Monty> Please go on.
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16:50:02 <danja> .g archimedes crew
16:50:04 <phenny> danja: http://sim.jedi.net.nz/missions.html
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16:50:09 <danja> .gc archimedes crew
16:50:12 <phenny> archimedes crew: 188,000
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16:50:22 <Arnia> .gc archimedes fuck
16:50:25 <phenny> archimedes fuck: 121,000
16:50:25 <danja> .gc achilles eel
16:50:28 <phenny> achilles eel: 52,300
16:51:01 <Jabberwock> lol
16:51:09 <danja> common typo then, archimedes fuck
16:51:54 <Arnia> I can see how it would happen
16:52:22 * Arnia takes the forgetful functor to Jabberwock
16:52:52 <Arnia> Recommended
16:52:55 <Arnia> .title http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/
16:52:58 <phenny> Arnia: John Baez's Stuff
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16:54:37 <danja> "learn how the integers secretly form a three-dimensional space"
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16:57:57 <Arnia> .title http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/week73.html
16:57:59 <phenny> Arnia: week73
16:58:07 <Arnia> Ah, useful :p
16:58:13 <Arnia> Tales of the n-Categories
16:58:28 <Arnia> Introducing category theory to the concrete minded
17:02:42 <Arnia> "I eventually hope to show that this, and many other shocking aspects of quantum theory, become less shocking when we think of the world in terms of categories (or n-categories) rather than sets.
17:02:42 <Arnia> "The way I think of it these days, the mysterious way quantum theory slammed into physics in the early 20th century was just nature's way of telling us we'd better learn n-category theory."
17:02:54 <Arnia> ibid
17:03:34 <edsu> joan baez has come a long way
17:03:48 <sbp> heh, that's what I was thinking
17:04:17 <edsu> sick^w great minds
17:06:34 <sbp> INDEEDZ
17:10:33 <thelsdj> .gc shitrude
17:10:36 <phenny> shitrude: 82
17:10:49 <jsled> next stop: 83!
17:11:48 <Arnia> "It's amusing to imagine this process of decategorification as one of those elaborate Gnostic myths about the Fall. We start in the paradise of omega-categories (or perhaps even higher up),
17:11:48 <Arnia> "but by the repeated sin of confusing equality with isomorphism we fall all the way down the n-categorical ladder to the crude world of sets, or worse, simply numbers."
17:12:00 <Arnia> John Baez++
17:13:06 <thelsdj> Joan Baez is cooler tho
17:13:11 <thelsdj> Joan Baez++++
17:14:07 <Arnia> Joan Baez++SIGNALLOST
17:14:07 <thelsdj> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDwK-Zir8ls
17:14:08 <phenny> thelsdj: YouTube - House of The Rising Sun
17:17:19 * edsu stops himself from clicking on Duran Duran - House of the Rising Sun
17:17:48 <thelsdj> yea, i had to resist too
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17:18:19 <thelsdj> but i veered off towards the 'muse - house of the risign sun' which i think might have been worse
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17:21:08 <edsu> that guy playing the ovation guitar is pretty good ...
17:21:44 <edsu> he looks like he's been wearing the ball n' chain too
17:21:53 <thelsdj> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgzqKPBwJ6A
17:21:58 <thelsdj> not a bad version
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17:22:41 * edsu cues it up and waits for the loc.gov http-proxy to pass it through
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17:26:09 <edsu> is that a wah-wah near the end?
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17:28:43 <edsu> if he lit his guitar on fire at the end it would've been better
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17:28:59 <edsu> or maybe the mouse
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17:39:42 <thelsdj> .wik MXN
17:39:43 <phenny> "The peso is the currency of Mexico." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MXN
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17:43:33 <Monty> bah, it's danja again
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17:44:36 <Arnia> BAH MONTY
17:44:40 <Monty> viewing about perl scripts in summary, I did not necessary"
17:44:41 <jsled> BAH ...
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17:44:57 <jsled> Arnia: theiver! herfter!
17:45:06 * Arnia may have solved his annoying problem
17:45:16 <Arnia> Not my problem where I annoy people; I relish that
17:45:23 * Arnia herfts left
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17:47:27 <Arnia> danja: did you just ask for axioms of the web?
17:47:30 <thelsdj> jsled: i'm somewhere around 315 xmoto levels completed
17:47:34 <Arnia> DON'T TEMPT ME MAN
17:48:01 <thelsdj> 326 actually
17:50:35 <jsled> roque out with your coque out, man.
17:50:57 <jsled> Myself, I am away from my linux box, so there is no way I can even compete.
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17:54:20 <Monty> hi perigrin
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17:56:06 <perigrin> hello again monty
17:56:09 <Monty> japesome hustling Tiger Woods depends on weekly great houseplants >:)
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18:05:10 <Monty> welcome, Xanthor[aw]
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18:16:42 <Monty> bah, it's xavier again
18:16:43 <Monty> bah, it's eikeon again
18:16:44 <Monty> welcome, tav
18:16:46 <Monty> hi bear, how ya doing?
18:16:46 <phenny> Monty: shh, don't let anyone know you're around!
18:16:57 <Monty> 1 FTW' I prefer the cruft, and specific tastes though
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18:19:32 <_bjoern> booze!
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18:19:56 <sbp> heh, heh
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18:23:58 <Monty> lo nnm
18:23:58 <Monty> welcome, jsled
18:23:58 <Monty> it's lisppaste2!
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18:35:22 <Monty> hey nicomen
18:35:22 <Monty> it's pierpa!
18:35:23 <Monty> But what does libby have to do with the price of fish?
18:35:23 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
18:35:23 <Monty> hi sr, how ya doing?
18:35:23 <phenny> Monty: shh, don't let anyone know you're around!
18:35:23 <Monty> howdy, xororand
18:35:23 <Monty> howdy, JibbyBot
18:35:23 <Monty> lo maxkelley
18:35:23 <Monty> Thank goodness, thelsdj is back!
18:35:23 <Monty> But what does bpt have to do with the price of fish?
18:35:23 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
18:35:23 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
18:35:24 <Monty> heh, that's what TCDC results and internet, then promptly disperse
18:35:27 <Monty> or Python, because the currying parts but owned by its own weather station hooked up with Kuwait without in sight.
18:35:28 <Monty> HAMMOND
18:35:30 <Monty> VNC dtm's feasts grows up with gas-filled gambling personality :P
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18:49:23 <nsh> Monty, what's with the splitfires?
18:49:42 <nsh> Monty?
18:49:49 <nsh> Monty....
18:50:37 <danja> poor Monty, it was bound to happen one day
18:51:47 <nsh> Nought but sackcloth and ashes in the land of Swhack.
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18:53:59 <Monty> Thank goodness, leobard is back!
18:53:59 <Monty> yo nwalsh!
18:53:59 <Monty> bah, it's nnm again
18:53:59 <Monty> bah, it's Morbus again
18:53:59 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
18:53:59 <Monty> lo est
18:54:00 <Monty> bah, it's Jabberwock again
18:54:01 <Monty> lo bpt
18:54:04 <Monty> FOOKING LIVAR'POOL SHOULD BE FIRST!!!!
18:54:56 <bancus> Am I missing something?
18:54:59 *** bancus changed the topic to: "<+Monty> FOOKING LIVAR'POOL SHOULD BE FIRST!!!!"
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18:58:16 <kpreid> What do you think you might be missing?
18:58:33 <[ruiner]> moo.
19:00:39 <sbp> Monty: ping
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19:02:06 * nsh wonders what's up on the 'nodes
19:02:22 <sbp> nsh: -LoRez- [Global Notice] I apologize for the trip through splitsville the past couple of days. Apparently we've annoyed a kiddie and he doesn't have anything better to do than packet a few of our servers. We're working with our sponsors to block the traffic.
19:02:35 <nsh> ah, thought as much
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19:02:39 <Monty> hey leobard
19:02:39 <Monty> howdy, idickinson
19:02:40 <Monty> Thank goodness, Xanthor[aw] is back!
19:02:40 <phenny> Be quiet, Monty.
19:02:41 *** pierpa` has quit (Remote closed the connection)
19:02:43 <Monty> so much came to give a successful ham sandwich, much as security personnel look so much
19:02:54 *** pierpa` (n=user@host141-248-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
19:03:02 <nsh> .gc "successful ham sandwich"
19:03:04 <phenny> "successful ham sandwich": 142
19:03:14 <nsh> .gc "successful cheese sandwich"
19:03:17 <phenny> "successful cheese sandwich": 2
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19:04:48 <nsh> Anyway, I had an idea...
19:05:13 <nsh> Online education/training based on the bittorrent concept
19:06:02 <nsh> break the thing to be taught into chunks, and let the people you teach each chunk to take over the proliferation of that part, and so on
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19:12:02 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's shepazu!
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19:26:17 <sbp> okay, weather is being exported properly
19:26:28 <sbp> dark(u there)
19:26:38 <ryanyu> yep
19:26:42 <sbp> yo!
19:26:46 <ryanyu> so whats up
19:26:49 <ryanyu> back from china
19:26:52 <sbp> yah
19:27:06 <sbp> many haxors y the light of the green danfango
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19:27:23 <sbp> <<<public welcome message to dark/ryanyu>>>
19:28:16 <Jabberwock> That was nice of you.
19:28:36 <sbp> thx lol
19:28:48 <sbp> omg, Autumnwatch
19:29:04 <ryanyu> sbp pls do u have an encryptor
19:29:13 <ryanyu> password decryptor
19:29:36 <sbp> ???
19:29:41 <sbp> encryptor or decryptor??
19:30:05 <ryanyu> decryptor
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19:31:48 <ryanyu> i entered a database of a site
19:32:05 <ryanyu> SO the password for the company there are encrypted
19:32:15 <ryanyu> is bjeorn here
19:32:22 <nsh> {&^========[ SplitStróm detected --+{@@ evidence mode on @@}+-- Logging strictly enabled ]=========^&}
19:35:20 <ryanyu> sbp this is the password 6497e707989f8b8f18f450061becbf18
19:35:27 <ryanyu> for the first company
19:37:04 <thelsdj> ryanyu(u need a gay table to chrax that)
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19:43:17 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's Arnia_!
19:43:17 <Monty> hi deltab
19:43:17 <Monty> hi chris2
19:43:17 <Monty> hi eikeon
19:43:17 <Monty> yo thelsdj!
19:43:28 <chris2> yikes
19:44:06 <thelsdj> Monty: stfu
19:44:07 <Monty> temperature
19:44:42 <Jabberwock> Monty: Hello!
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19:47:43 <Monty> bwahaha
19:48:04 <MoiraA> aren't you stupid Monty?
19:48:11 <MoiraA> who's a stupid bot?
19:48:15 <MoiraA> monty!
19:48:24 <nsh> Monty's all splitzed out, methinks
19:48:48 <MoiraA> he's quite clever actually - I'm just envious :)
19:48:51 <MoiraA> wish I could make a bot
19:49:01 <MoiraA> actually design one from scratch
19:49:11 <nsh> i'm sure you could
19:49:29 <nsh> it's all pretty simple stuffs
19:49:35 <MoiraA> I've downloaded, compiled and installed an eggdrop on someone else's shell before, that I used to SSH into
19:49:46 <MoiraA> but it was irritatingly awkward
19:49:58 <nsh> .ety legacy
19:50:24 <nsh> phenny!
19:50:37 <nsh> oh man, someone's killed all the bots
19:50:44 <nsh> @supybotWhat'sup?!
19:50:57 <nsh> oh man, they even stole supy's corpse
19:51:02 <thelsdj> I bet swhacker (still works): http://shitrude.com/
19:51:03 <nsh> this is turning dark
19:51:09 <thelsdj> :)
19:51:18 <thelsdj> loggy: pointer?
19:51:18 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2007-11-08#T19-51-18
19:51:19 <nsh> thank god, swhacker can tell us what happened
19:51:30 <thelsdj> ? foo
19:51:45 <thelsdj> > hrm
19:51:49 <thelsdj> $ fiz
19:51:51 <ryanyu> monty
19:51:51 <ryanyu> what is up
19:51:51 <Monty> clearly I figure I've read something across roads have 3 mile radius'.. but little green from my pom poms.
19:51:51 <ryanyu> i got some little stuff for u to do for me
19:52:03 <Monty> Do you feel strongly about discussing such things ?
19:52:04 <phenny> nsh!
19:52:04 <phenny> "c.1375, 'body of persons sent on a mission,' from O.Fr. legacie 'legate's office,' from M.L. legatia, from L. legatus 'ambassador, envoy,' noun use of pp. of legare 'appoint by a last will, send as a legate' (see legate)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=legacy
19:52:05 <Monty> Bugger... err.. no?
19:52:06 <Monty> Fact: gobstoppers sells best initiatives!
19:52:13 <MoiraA> I brought in here
19:52:16 <MoiraA> nsh
19:52:20 * nsh activates the roffles
19:52:23 <MoiraA> sbp voiced it
19:52:29 <MoiraA> it immediately set +t
19:52:38 <nsh> DAZ NOT KL
19:52:41 <MoiraA> I took it into #adsl which doesn't exist now
19:52:45 <swhask> Not in scope: `hrm'
19:52:59 <thelsdj> swhask: you are lagged
19:53:01 <MoiraA> people kept talking to it and it responded
19:53:13 <MoiraA> it churned out so much rubbish an admin banned it and nme
19:53:18 <nsh> eeks
19:53:18 <MoiraA> *me :(
19:53:20 <nsh> :-/
19:53:25 <nsh> that happened with me and robot
19:53:33 <nsh> boy, the mischief we got into
19:53:41 <MoiraA> if grew loads in size as it acquired vocabulary
19:53:45 <nsh> but the superintendent, he had other ideas
19:53:53 <nsh> ah, one of those
19:54:00 <MoiraA> but I was dependent on this guy being online
19:54:13 <MoiraA> so I could use his shell as eggdrops need linux
19:54:19 * nsh nods
19:54:24 <MoiraA> I had to ssh into that, log into the bot etc etc
19:54:34 <MoiraA> in the end I decided it was time wasting
19:54:41 * nsh smiles
19:54:52 <nsh> yeah, i lost a lot of time to irc
19:54:56 <nsh> but i gained a few smarts
19:54:58 <MoiraA> it finished completely when the guy who must have been unstable, threw his laptop containing the bot out of his window
19:55:24 <MoiraA> I'm pleased with what it taught me
19:55:26 <nsh> maybe the bot made him do it
19:55:37 <nsh> maybe.. maybe the vocabulary it learnt
19:55:37 <MoiraA> it was useful having an anonymous person use channel commands
19:55:39 <nsh> just took it over the edge
19:55:56 <MoiraA> they pick up an amazing amount of bad language!
19:56:07 * nsh smiles
19:56:19 <MoiraA> and I wasn't very popular for getting this guy's IP address banned from adsl
19:56:41 <MoiraA> I could strangle the people who talked to it - they knew exactly what it would do
19:56:50 <nsh> there's actually a group of templars whose aim is to prevent artificial intelligence. they routinely go about seeding irc bots with profanity, as they know the conservative right will never allow such foul-mouthed technology to advance
19:57:21 <nsh> aye
19:57:41 <nsh> there's a known phenomenon whereby people think it's ok to be annoying by proxy of a bot
19:58:01 <nsh> making it produce inanities they would normally be embarrased for self-originating
19:58:24 <nsh> .gc "self-originating"
19:58:25 <phenny> "self-originating": 15,300
20:00:34 <thelsdj> .gc "fooking livar'pool"
20:02:09 <MoiraA> I can understand the reaction to it
20:02:23 <MoiraA> was a pity it eventually got thrown out of a window :(
20:02:44 <MoiraA> same guy slashed his wrists after an argument with his girlfriend
20:02:55 <nsh> ouch
20:03:09 <MoiraA> it was a horrible night - he messaged me saying he was sending a file which was a jpeg of his slashed wrist
20:03:15 <MoiraA> what do you do?
20:03:26 <nsh> it's hard to slap someone over the internet
20:03:37 <nsh> you do your best to translate it into text
20:03:37 * MoiraA shudders at the memory
20:03:43 <MoiraA> the darker side of irc
20:03:53 <nsh> i wouldn't blame irc
20:04:02 <MoiraA> yes, I'd keep my kids off it
20:04:18 <nsh> i'm not sure
20:04:21 <MoiraA> as it happened it didn't look too serious, but I dreaded opening the file
20:04:32 <nsh> i think it might be better that kids learn about nutcases over the internet than in real life
20:04:44 <MoiraA> I didn't know whether I ought to call an ambulance (all the way to Glasgow) or not
20:04:50 <MoiraA> in the end he solved it by saying he had
20:05:08 <MoiraA> it's just that I don't feel irc is for the faint hearted
20:05:20 <nsh> neither's life, eh
20:05:26 <MoiraA> they can delay spoiling their innocence for a few years
20:05:31 <MoiraA> 18 is quite old enough
20:05:37 <nsh> good point
20:05:47 <MoiraA> when emily was younger I encouraged her to use msn
20:06:11 <MoiraA> wait till you have kids
20:06:34 <MoiraA> you instantly forget everything you did and suddenly take onboard all these strict rules
20:06:44 <MoiraA> and get very protective
20:06:57 <nsh> likely
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20:08:19 <therethinke1> Hey everyone!
20:08:34 <nsh> oh yeah, act all innocent...
20:08:40 * nsh pictures therethinke1 whistling
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20:08:49 <Monty> hey deltab
20:08:49 <Monty> welcome, xavier
20:08:49 <Monty> howdy, loggy
20:08:49 <Monty> hi Cutout
20:08:50 <Monty> bah, it's jsled again
20:09:03 <therethinke1> wait, is my username therethinke1? hmm\
20:09:29 <therethinke1> that's odd
20:09:38 <danja> two great tastes that taste great together : beer and nicorette. not.
20:09:48 <nsh> :-/
20:11:50 <MoiraA> hello therethinke1
20:13:01 <therethinke1> Hi
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20:19:46 <Monty> bah, it's Talliesin again
20:19:46 <Monty> lo qopi
20:19:46 <Monty> howdy, leobard
20:19:46 <Monty> But what does eel have to do with the price of fish?
20:19:46 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
20:19:47 <Monty> But what does chris2 have to do with the price of fish?
20:19:49 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's [ruiner]!
20:19:50 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
20:19:50 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's crschmidt!
20:19:56 <Monty> indeed
20:20:02 <Monty> manual control sleeps with harlots.
20:20:14 *** darobin (n=robinb@m218.net81-66-102.noos.fr) has joined #swhack
20:20:19 <qopi> shut up Monty you loud mouth
20:20:20 <Monty> was bacteria...
20:20:30 <qopi> you ARE bacteria Monty!
20:20:31 <Monty> camman!
20:20:59 <chris2> jebus
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20:22:14 <MoiraA> spooky in here isn't it?
20:22:25 <MoiraA> you aren't a bot are you chris2?
20:22:27 <chris2> ghosttown. a bottown, actually
20:22:38 <chris2> i'm a chemical bot
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20:23:23 <chris2> made of water, amino acids and dna
20:25:08 <MoiraA> aaah just the person chris2!
20:25:22 <MoiraA> I wanted someone with chemistry knowledge last night
20:25:36 <MoiraA> can you tell me what the difference is between a chloride and a chlorite?
20:25:46 <perigrin> d vs t
20:25:53 <MoiraA> the only other person I can think of I could ask isn't online
20:26:07 <MoiraA> he has a degree in medical physics (and another in computer science)
20:26:10 <qopi> MoiraA: I think it has something to do with the number of oxygen molecules or something
20:26:24 <perigrin> chlorites hang from the roof ... chlorides from the ground?
20:26:26 <MoiraA> yeah
20:26:36 <MoiraA> I just wondered if anyone could be more concise
20:26:40 <MoiraA> and precise
20:26:52 <MoiraA> chlorine, chloride and chlorite
20:27:02 <qopi> .wik binary compound
20:27:08 <MoiraA> chlorine is a gas which in solution would become hydrochloric acid
20:27:23 <MoiraA> always amuses me when people talk about chlorine in water
20:27:26 <chris2> hmm
20:27:31 <MoiraA> which isn't physically possible :)
20:27:37 <qopi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_compound
20:27:38 <chris2> chloride is a salt of chlor
20:27:50 <chris2> chlorite probably is a carbon chlor something
20:27:51 <MoiraA> like they think water is blue because of the chlorine added :)
20:27:57 <MoiraA> the world is full of ignorant people
20:27:57 <phenny> "A binary compound is a compound that contains two different elements, such as NaCl (salt)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_compound
20:27:58 <chris2> wtf
20:28:17 <MoiraA> yeah, so basically ide and ite are suffixes
20:28:48 <perigrin> .wik Chlorite
20:28:50 <phenny> "The chlorite ion is ClO2|−|." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorite
20:28:53 <perigrin> bah
20:28:54 <MoiraA> I guess to understand any further I need to read some basic chemistry
20:29:04 <perigrin> "A chlorite (compound) is a compound that contains this group, with chlorine in oxidation state +3. Chlorites are also known as salts of chlorous acid."
20:29:17 <MoiraA> it's like when I asked someone to tell me what exponential meant
20:29:30 <qopi> "If the anion is more than one atom of the same substance, either "ite" or "ate" is added at the end instead of "ide". "ite" is used when the anion is, "ate" if the anion is 3 or higher."
20:29:30 <MoiraA> when something increases "exponentially"
20:29:52 <MoiraA> usually I find this said by people who don't know what they're saying
20:29:56 <perigrin> Chloride doesn't (neccessarily) have any oxygen in it ... chlorite does
20:30:06 <MoiraA> ah
20:30:09 <chris2> so chlorite is a chloride, no?
20:30:15 <MoiraA> yeah there's also chlorate
20:30:17 <perigrin> er I'm not sure there
20:30:43 <perigrin> Ahh
20:30:51 <perigrin> Anything with 1 Cl is a chloride
20:30:53 <chris2> .wik chlorate
20:30:56 <phenny> "The chlorate ion ClO3|−|." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorate
20:31:09 <perigrin> see the graph in Chlorite linked above
20:31:11 <chris2> hah
20:31:12 <chris2> nice
20:31:19 <MoiraA> so you could synthesise chlorides from chlorites?
20:31:37 <perigrin> MoiraA, yes if you could remove the oxygen atoms
20:31:51 <perigrin> I'm not a chemist
20:31:57 <perigrin> so I'm not sure how that would work
20:32:09 <perigrin> also if you oxydize the chlorides I suppose it could go in reverse too
20:33:26 <MoiraA> yes ....
20:33:52 <MoiraA> and I guess (the original enquiry started here) any chloride would work in the lethal injection to interrup the heart rythm
20:34:00 <MoiraA> potassium or sodium
20:34:12 <nsh> oh man
20:34:35 <nsh> i didn't know the mpaa had anti-copying advertising on the level it does
20:34:45 <nsh> failarity++
20:34:56 <sbp> sh'zoom m'zoom
20:36:50 <perigrin> MoiraA, enough of anything would I suspect work ... I'm not sure what about teh chloride specifically causes that response.
20:39:04 <MoiraA> interrupts messages to the brain regulating heart rhythm
20:39:19 <MoiraA> causing irregular heart beats and eventually heart attack
20:39:37 <MoiraA> that's after the succynil choline has paralysed their breathing muscles
20:39:45 <darobin> ick
20:39:49 <MoiraA> and intravenous barbiturates have also been given in overdose
20:40:17 <MoiraA> normal anaesthesia gives you succinyl choline but the anaesthetist would put you on a ventilator
20:40:20 <darobin> .wik strychnine
20:40:23 <phenny> "Template:Chembox new<!-- WARNING: template omitted, pre-expand include size too large -->" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strychnine
20:40:33 <darobin> mmmm
20:40:35 <MoiraA> and knocks you out with ketamine or a mix containing intravenous barbiturates
20:41:01 <darobin> there are plenty of ways of killing people if you can choose the products
20:41:14 <darobin> I wouldn't necessarily go for chlor*
20:41:14 <MoiraA> tell me!
20:41:30 * MoiraA shudders at the recollection of a recent operation
20:41:35 <darobin> there are more than I could possibly count!
20:41:48 <MoiraA> it's necessary to allow a surgeon like in my case to do muscle grafting
20:41:52 <perigrin> Absinthe, Rum, Tequila ...
20:41:57 <MoiraA> the patient has to remain still
20:42:02 <MoiraA> and people don't necessarily otherwise
20:42:06 <darobin> that rules out Tequila
20:42:06 <perigrin> yeah
20:42:15 <darobin> Strichnine is one way
20:42:16 <perigrin> And Rum in my experience.
20:42:18 <MoiraA> yup :)
20:42:26 <MoiraA> I fancy gas chamber myself
20:42:30 <MoiraA> cyanide
20:42:35 <nsh> hey guys
20:42:39 <sbp> yo nsh
20:42:43 <laplink> .gc "pushy cunts"
20:42:45 <phenny> "pushy cunts": 58
20:42:52 <darobin> Monty: which do you prefer?
20:42:52 <Monty> You're not really talking about me... are you ?
20:42:52 <nsh> thought experiment: what do you think would happen if scientists discovered a way to make free energy?
20:42:52 <sbp> .gc "pully cunts"
20:42:55 <phenny> "pully cunts": 0
20:43:03 <nsh> answer honestly
20:43:09 <sbp> nsh: what is the way?
20:43:19 <darobin> nsh: someone would patent the fuck out of it?
20:43:23 <MoiraA> it would seek to dissipate itself nsh
20:43:27 <Jabberwock> "Bydd".sounds_like("Beethe")
20:43:27 <Jabberwock> => true
20:43:30 <sbp> if you have to melt asteroids or something before you get more than an asteroid back...
20:43:36 <MoiraA> like all energy does
20:43:36 <Jabberwock> soundex is smart.
20:43:37 <nsh> sbp, it might give the game away but, say you could take a watt and make as many copies of it as you want
20:43:44 <nsh> for minimal time cost
20:43:48 <laplink> .wik soundex
20:43:53 <phenny> "Soundex is a phonetic algorithm for indexing names by sound, as pronounced in English." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundex
20:44:01 <nsh> do you think we'd all be living in an energy utopia?
20:44:10 <MoiraA> hi sbp we're back to the chloride / chlorite thing again - I found a chemist in here
20:44:10 <sbp> hmm
20:44:21 <Jabberwock> Free energy?
20:44:23 <sbp> yeah, we resolved that yesterday didn't we?
20:44:23 <nsh> or that there would be repressive legislation enforced at the threat of sanctions to prevent the free distribution of energy?
20:44:28 <Jabberwock> Energy isn't free?
20:44:37 <darobin> could said watt be used to power anything? including say humans?
20:44:46 <nsh> sure, why not
20:45:04 <darobin> would I be allowed to fart my way to the moon?
20:45:04 <MoiraA> power a human?
20:45:04 <sbp> I would guess there might be some attempt to regulate it at first
20:45:05 <sbp> and then it'd just get about
20:45:06 <MoiraA> lol
20:45:12 * nsh nods
20:45:17 <darobin> with infinite energy anyone could destroy the world
20:45:23 <darobin> so you'd get stringent regulation yes
20:45:27 <sbp> like voip
20:45:32 <MoiraA> a 300W fanless MoiraA supply
20:45:44 <chris2> anyone here that gave a talk at a university before entering one?
20:45:54 <sbp> AaronSw dide
20:45:59 <chris2> aaron, yeah
20:45:59 <MoiraA> they don't need infinite energy for that darobin
20:46:00 <sbp> ye old AaronSwe
20:46:07 <chris2> is he around here anymore?
20:46:11 <MoiraA> not me chris2
20:46:16 <sbp> he drops in from time to time
20:46:43 <chris2> it's just funny because the bf of the first person i asked that did that too
20:46:56 <sbp> ah
20:47:21 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<MoiraA> a 300W fanless MoiraA supply"
20:47:50 <sbp> I still think it depends on how tricky the mechanism is
20:47:54 <sbp> think about guns
20:48:09 <sbp> if anybody could make guns out of washing up bottles, regulating them would be very tricky
20:48:13 <nsh> ok
20:48:21 <nsh> this thought experiment is falling apart a bit
20:48:22 <sbp> since it takes a certain amount of craft, though, you can sorta regulate them
20:48:49 <sbp> if it was mega-assed difficult, then it'd be easy to regulate, like regulating the movement of nuclear materials
20:49:03 <nsh> although it's falling apart in a way that reinforces its underlying argument
20:49:09 <sbp> all your gedankenexperiment are belong to the Swhack Reality Factor
20:49:19 <nsh> i was trying to compare the unbounded utility ceiling of energy
20:49:28 <nsh> with the unbounded utility of information
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20:49:32 <__> I asked a bit ago, but everyone was sleeping
20:49:38 <sbp> ah, interesting
20:49:42 <__> anyone know of an OpenSocial to FOAF endeavour?
20:49:48 *** __ is now known as procto
20:49:48 <sbp> what about... infinite wealth?
20:50:07 <sbp> I guess it's kinda similar
20:50:13 <nsh> wealth is only defined in terms of its absence
20:50:18 <nsh> and relatively at that
20:50:22 <nsh> so that's kinda an impossible construction, i guess
20:50:28 <sbp> well, no
20:50:40 <sbp> you can think of it as how far you are away from having to fight to sustain yourself
20:51:05 <sbp> on the low end at least
20:51:05 <nsh> ah, there's probably a large field of semantig marshland hereabouts
20:51:08 <sbp> not really sure about the high end
20:51:12 <nsh> *semantic
20:51:16 <sbp> where's qopi when we need him?
20:51:39 <nsh> the thing is, wealth-as-ability is distinct from wealth-as-relative-lack-of-scarcity
20:51:59 <nsh> the former is dependant upon the later in the current economic model
20:52:00 <sbp> perhaps the former defines the lower end and the latter the higher?
20:52:01 <nsh> *latter
20:52:05 <nsh> hmm
20:52:43 <nsh> i don't know
20:52:54 <sbp> yeah, me neither. this dizzies my head
20:53:04 <sbp> I demand qopi!
20:53:15 <perigrin> sbp, anybody can make bombs out of washing-up-bottles but they haven't regulated them yet
20:53:15 <nsh> qopilate!
20:53:29 * perigrin starts a campaign to ban washing-up
20:53:33 <sbp> ouch. the storm surge tomorrow is predicted to be 2.9m
20:53:42 <sbp> the disaster in the 1950s was only 2.3m
20:53:44 <nsh> perigrin, not strictly true (at least in the UK now). you can be sentenced for having (informational) articles which might be used for terrorism
20:53:59 <MoiraA> qopi
20:54:03 <nsh> notice "might be used" is quite distinct from "you're planning to use them"
20:54:04 <sbp> (1953)
20:54:05 <MoiraA> was here earlier
20:54:08 <sbp> yeah
20:54:13 <Jabberwock> sbp: Where is this?
20:54:16 <sbp> phenny: tell qopi to be about; we need you! thanks
20:54:16 <perigrin> define "having" and "articles" ... if I turn off caching on my browser ...
20:54:19 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when qopi is around.
20:54:27 <sbp> Jabberwock: expected to be a problem in Norfolk and North Kent
20:54:37 <perigrin> sbp, storm surge?
20:54:42 <Jabberwock> geez
20:54:45 <sbp> Thames Barrier is closing at 10pm
20:54:48 <sbp> yeah
20:54:51 <perigrin> Oh! You're getting Noah?
20:54:57 <MoiraA> who is <__> ?
20:55:04 <sbp> MoiraA: procto, I think
20:55:13 <procto> yeah
20:55:14 <procto> that was me
20:55:18 <procto> I'm not longer __
20:55:20 <procto> no*
20:55:21 <procto> :>
20:55:21 <nsh> perigrin, usually the legislative brance will include some legalese definition in the law statue, and the judges will work out what that really means in a series of cases establishing precident
20:55:26 <nsh> perigrin, there's only been one such case
20:55:31 <MoiraA> [21:25] <sbp> phenny: tell qopi to be about; we need you! thanks <<< nobody ever needs me :(
20:55:40 <sbp> nsh: this is right in your country, isn't it... all prepared over there?
20:55:45 * qopi looks in
20:55:47 <phenny> qopi: 21:25Z <sbp> tell qopi to be about; we need you! thanks
20:55:51 <sbp> phenny: tell MoiraA to be about; we need you too! thanks
20:55:54 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when moiraa is around.
20:55:55 <qopi> need me for what?
20:56:07 <nsh> economicsy discussion
20:56:11 <sbp> qopi: I was debating with the about-to-be-deluged nsh about economix
20:56:12 <procto> Wealth is value, which is subjective
20:56:28 <Jabberwock> Isn't that statement subjective?
20:56:29 <procto> or rather
20:56:32 <procto> that's one of the theories
20:56:40 <procto> there are several
20:56:44 <procto> "big ones"
20:56:49 <sbp> qopi: see backscroll, and feel free to chip in/set us straight if you can
20:57:02 <qopi> oh, I see, ok...
20:57:08 <procto> I only dabble in economics, I imagine qopi actually has some expertise?
20:57:17 <nsh> (synopsis: i started with a thought experiment: what would happen if science enabled free energy production (removed energy scarcity). then we got onto the idea of infinite wealth and whether that's a contradiction or not
20:57:23 <MoiraA> hello phenny, do you have a message for me? :)
20:57:25 <phenny> MoiraA: 21:26Z <sbp> tell MoiraA to be about; we need you too! thanks
20:57:34 <MoiraA> aaaah
20:57:45 * MoiraA feels all warm and fuzzy inside
20:57:54 <procto> well, what other scarcities are eliminated due to free energy?
20:58:32 * perigrin crosses his fingers and hopes Britain doesn't become the next Atlantis.
20:58:37 <procto> I can see no situation where scarcities are eliminated completly
20:58:40 <procto> thus
20:58:47 <MoiraA> not sure procto
20:58:49 <procto> there is always a scarce resource in which to place "wealth" value
20:58:55 <MoiraA> but did you know this?
20:58:57 <MoiraA> A totally pure salt, when dry and when shaken in the dark, will emit small flashes of white light.
20:59:02 <qopi> sbp: I think your talking about philosophy more than economics. Economist do have their own standard answers to what is wealth etc but its largely a load of nonsense!
20:59:05 <nsh> but the gedanken was originally to compare the legislative maintainance of information scarcity now that it's possible to replicate it at nominal cost with what might happen if the same occured with another universally useful quantity, energy
20:59:05 <procto> yes
20:59:13 <procto> MoiraA: you can also snap some lifesavers for the same effect
20:59:36 <MoiraA> somehow that found itself important to insert in an article on how to synthesise lsd
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20:59:52 <MoiraA> dunno why anyone would bother
20:59:57 <procto> nsh: one of the differences is that there is an ability to objectively quantify energy but not information
21:00:03 <MoiraA> if you had that kind of knowledge you could earn good money anyway
21:00:08 <nsh> procto, how do you mean?
21:00:09 <procto> yes, someone might be using that killowat hour to stay alive
21:00:14 <procto> and another just to light their empty rooms
21:00:16 <sbp> qopi: fair enough; thanks!
21:00:16 <MoiraA> the chemicals needed while not illegal are watched
21:00:29 <procto> but it's still a killowat hour
21:00:33 <procto> while with information
21:00:37 <procto> units are subjectively defined
21:00:41 <MoiraA> and you wouldn't know what strength you'd managed to produce
21:00:45 <procto> we can measure it with bits and bytes
21:00:49 <nsh> (probably best not to use <return> for punctuation during busy chat)
21:00:49 <sbp> word? sentence?
21:00:54 <procto> but legislation and distribution systems
21:00:55 <procto> don't do so
21:00:57 <procto> right now
21:01:02 <procto> songs, books, etc.
21:01:11 <MoiraA> no, they don't
21:01:14 <qopi> .wik wealth
21:01:17 <phenny> "Wealth from the old English word 'weal', which means 'well-being' or 'welfare'." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth
21:01:23 <nsh> heh
21:01:31 <sbp> heh indeed
21:01:32 <procto> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_(economics) is what you want
21:01:32 <procto> :>
21:01:38 <perigrin> .ety mall
21:01:40 <phenny> "1737, 'shaded walk serving as a promenade,' from The Mall, broad, tree-lined promenade in St. James's Park, London (1674), formerly an open alley that was used to play pall-mall, a croquet-like game involving hitting a ball with a mallet through a ring, from Fr. [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=mall
21:01:57 <MoiraA> there's only two measures, two states, two opposites and two opposing forces
21:02:07 <MoiraA> good versus evil
21:02:43 <sbp> the five tones deafen the senses?
21:02:50 <MoiraA> 0 or 1
21:02:51 <procto> that's a bit of a philosophical quagmire you're dragging us there MoiraA
21:02:55 <qopi> http://wiki.uniteddiversity.com/WhatIsTheMatterWithMoney
21:02:56 <procto> sbp: tao++
21:02:59 <MoiraA> sorry, my brain is tired
21:03:01 <sbp> :-)
21:03:04 <MoiraA> they merge into one sbp
21:03:13 <qopi> that has a nice little bit about about wealth in it
21:03:20 <MoiraA> apologies, it
21:03:22 <nsh> procto, so you're saying information has value asside from mere (usefully-derivable-)quantity
21:03:23 <sbp> the tao that can be incremented...
21:03:23 <MoiraA> drat
21:03:26 <sbp> hehe
21:03:27 <MoiraA> it's a well trodden road
21:03:44 <procto> nsh: as does energy. but with energy we never think about charging different things based on your use.
21:03:45 <MoiraA> I must get to bed, I need an early night
21:03:54 <MoiraA> stayed up till 4am this morning
21:03:58 <nsh> procto, why do you think that is?
21:04:07 <nsh> nighties, MoiraA
21:04:16 <MoiraA> buy if you think about it, everything works because of two diametrically oppposite forces
21:04:17 <nsh> don't let the bet-bots bite
21:04:24 <procto> nsh: "accidents" of politics
21:04:37 <procto> MoiraA: when I think about it, I don't think that at all
21:04:53 <procto> MoiraA: good night :>
21:05:10 <MoiraA> I do :)
21:05:11 <nsh> procto, do you think the staying power of accidents of politics will always be stronger than the intellectual arguments of unbounded utility?
21:05:22 <MoiraA> electricity, how does that work?
21:05:23 <sbp> 'night MoiraA!
21:05:27 <sbp> electron flow
21:05:29 <MoiraA> computers
21:05:33 <MoiraA> etc
21:05:38 <sbp> Von Neumann architecture
21:05:44 <sbp> and, beneath it all, Shannon's information theory
21:06:01 <sbp> two Latin words, second abbreviated from cetera
21:06:12 <MoiraA> why am I getting the impression that I'm being herded off out of the way? :)
21:06:25 <MoiraA> encouraged to exit
21:06:26 <sbp> I'm just an answering questions machine! :-)
21:06:35 * nsh drage MoiraA back
21:06:39 <MoiraA> tucked up in bed
21:06:40 <nsh> drage? drags
21:06:43 <sbp> we were saying goodbye coz you said: <MoiraA> I must get to bed, I need an early night
21:06:44 <nsh> .wik Drage
21:06:46 <MoiraA> lol
21:06:47 <phenny> "Drage, Nordfriesland, in the district of Nordfriesland, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drage
21:07:01 <MoiraA> it's ok, I really do need to get to bed
21:07:03 <sbp> but if you want to partai, then whoo!
21:07:07 <MoiraA> I'm just joking
21:07:08 <nsh> TO NORDFRIEDLAND WIth you!
21:07:10 <sbp> NO, PARTAI
21:07:13 <MoiraA> goodnight!
21:07:15 <sbp> PARTAI IN NORDFRIEDLAND!
21:07:16 <procto> nsh: I think that accidents of politics will be slowly eroded by neccessities of progress at variable rates
21:07:18 <sbp> ('night!)
21:07:47 <perigrin> NORDFRIENDLANDISHPARTAI!
21:07:55 <procto> nsh: a bit of a mouthful, I'll explain what I meant:
21:08:09 <nsh> i follow, but go ahead
21:08:19 <perigrin> NORDFRIEDLANDISHPARTAI! rather ... I hate it when I typo words I make up
21:08:33 <sbp> we should make up a word for that
21:08:36 <nsh> .gc NORDPARTAI
21:08:36 <sbp> typos in neologisms
21:08:39 <phenny> NORDPARTAI: 0
21:08:41 <sbp> typologism
21:08:44 <nsh> nice
21:08:49 <nsh> .gc typologism
21:08:52 <phenny> typologism: 66
21:09:00 <sbp> anyway, I must go the way of the Moira
21:09:09 <nsh> maybe we shouldn't mess with it, looks like evil truncated
21:09:12 <nsh> ah ok
21:09:18 <sbp> not with Moira though of course
21:09:24 <nsh> be like that, SOUTFRIEDLANDER
21:09:26 <sbp> her 300W fanless supply would keep me up
21:09:28 <MoiraA> haha
21:09:31 <sbp> EVEN THOUGH IT BE FANLESS
21:09:33 <procto> nsh: intellectual arguments never triumph over politics (which is a combination of self-interest people working for their self interests to the detriment of others, combined with a beurocracy working for itself, and a state working for itself, the two latters ones also doing so to the detriment of others), but progress has a bit of inexorable march forward, though it may be shifted off course (such as the Electrobus debacle in the late 19th, ear
21:09:41 <MoiraA> yeah
21:09:43 * sbp is sensitive to electonix
21:09:46 * sbp waves to MoiraA
21:09:48 <MoiraA> it wouldn't wake you :)
21:09:50 <nsh> (cut at 19th, ear-)
21:09:52 <sbp> hehe
21:09:53 <MoiraA> silent
21:09:58 * MoiraA waves back
21:10:02 <procto> early 20th centuries)
21:10:04 <sbp> 'night!
21:10:54 <nsh> the problem is, as i see it, at any rate, that we may not have time or resources enough to wait for the slow march-of-memetic-funeral progress of political exigency
21:10:57 * perigrin thinks of Van Gogh who was also cut in the late 19th, ear
21:11:03 <nsh> rofl
21:11:15 <nsh> @perigrin++
21:11:21 <procto> nsh: certainly agree
21:11:29 <procto> nsh: that's where "variable rates" come in
21:11:39 <nsh> ellab you rates
21:11:46 <procto> at times we may leap forward against the resistance from such entities as I mentioned
21:12:03 <procto> and at time succumb to their delays and diversions
21:12:08 <procto> times*
21:12:34 <procto> ideally, there would be no impedence
21:12:39 * nsh muses
21:13:04 <nsh> you play chess, procto?
21:13:10 <procto> nsh: I play Go
21:13:23 <procto> just yesterday I was playing with my gf, when I had a brilliant idea
21:13:25 <nsh> ah, i should get around to that. i keep telling myself i will
21:13:26 <procto> strip go.
21:13:31 <nsh> haha
21:13:42 <procto> I haven't decided the exact relation of captured units to garments
21:13:53 <nsh> you can get girls that play go and look better with less clothes on?
21:14:06 <procto> so as to maximize the 2nd derivative of utility :>
21:14:11 * nsh smiles
21:14:13 <procto> nsh: amazing, isn't it?
21:14:24 <nsh> bloody damn miraculous, sir
21:14:33 * procto has pix to prove it if required.
21:14:59 <nsh> thanks, i'll pass. in my head, you have more indemnity
21:15:22 <nsh> reason i asked about the chess though
21:15:31 <procto> heh
21:15:55 <nsh> is that i think IP law might be succeptible to a fork/pincer maneuver
21:16:29 <Tene> .gc chess fork/pincer
21:16:31 <phenny> chess fork/pincer: 0
21:16:39 * Tene requests more info
21:16:41 <nsh> if we consider that there is (a) massive poverty and disease (b) limited physical resources (c) supposed universal agreement on humanitarian grounds
21:18:26 <nsh> it is now being realised that in light of such things as climate change and finite energy deposits, the stability and security of developed nations can not be independent from the developing world
21:18:48 <procto> yes
21:19:13 <procto> I am personally quite against any type of IP legislation
21:19:24 <procto> some of my views on the subject are at http://www.logarchy.org
21:19:26 <procto> very concise :>
21:19:41 <nsh> so if was made a rhetorical strategy to demand either (a) massive increase in physical/economic aid to the third world (b) excemption or moratorium on intellectual property law
21:20:05 <nsh> a case could be made quite popular
21:20:10 <procto> economic aid is a pretty bad idea
21:20:19 * nsh nods
21:20:42 <procto> it's been depressing the african economies for decades now
21:20:48 <nsh> economic aid is a very top-down "solution"
21:20:55 <nsh> which is why it suffers from the problems it does
21:21:07 <nsh> corruption being the most talked about
21:21:18 <nsh> the real solutions are of course bottom up ones
21:21:45 <nsh> which allow small groups and communities to use technology and information to allow themselves to bootstrap their economic development
21:22:52 <nsh> so, that further marks the division between the two prongs of the fork: top-down physical aid (food, money) or bottom up information freedom
21:23:02 <procto> yeah
21:23:08 <procto> I'm thinking of applying to get a grant
21:23:11 <nsh> money and food can only be used in finite, usually limited ways, which have been demonstrated to be ineffective in the long term
21:23:12 <procto> for this summer
21:23:24 <procto> a "peace grant
21:23:25 <procto> ""
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21:23:29 <nsh> whereas ideas are infinitely diverse in their application possibilities
21:23:33 <procto> that will work on some such
21:23:33 <nsh> interesting
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21:24:53 <nsh> procto, i'll be glad to look at any draft proposals you come up with
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21:27:04 <Arnia_> Oh dear... people are going to hit me
21:27:12 *** Arnia_ is now known as Arnia
21:27:12 <nsh> what you done?
21:27:22 * perigrin hits Arnia
21:27:33 <Arnia> Well, you know I was rambling about levels of disagreement?
21:27:38 <nsh> yah
21:27:47 <perigrin> you found one high enough to evoke a physical response?
21:28:21 <Arnia> I've generalised the concept into n-uncertainty, where n-uncertainty is uncertainty over an (n-1)-uncertain system
21:28:36 <nsh> inductive uncertainty
21:28:38 <nsh> ?
21:28:54 <Arnia> Not quite... I've created a countably infinite chain of levels of disagreement
21:28:57 <MoiraA> rambling nonsense?
21:29:12 <procto> MoiraA: you're supposed to be asleep!
21:29:15 <MoiraA> let me help out Arnia
21:29:21 * MoiraA stabs Arnia around a bit with a large knife
21:29:40 <nsh> hrmm
21:29:45 <MoiraA> yeah, takes me a while to get moving, but I promise I am going now
21:29:49 <nsh> ellaborate, Arnia, (between blows)
21:29:57 <MoiraA> got involved in deleting spam messages from my guestbook
21:30:01 <Arnia> 0-uncertainty is a typical bivalent system
21:30:05 <nsh> i can't see how you'd get countably infinite systems to be uncertain over
21:30:10 <MoiraA> and before I go I must email travel agent
21:30:20 <Arnia> 1-uncertainty is a Heyting algebra (such as fuzzy set theory)
21:30:41 <Arnia> 2-uncertainty is an interval logic
21:30:50 <Arnia> 3-uncertainty is trust
21:30:52 <Arnia> etc
21:31:03 <nsh> ah
21:31:24 <nsh> don't suppose you read any of that cracksmoke prose article i posted...
21:31:29 <Arnia> What I aim to demonstrate is all this is equivalent to an n-ary product of Heyting algebras
21:31:45 <nsh> hmm
21:31:51 <nsh> i wish i could parse that
21:31:53 <perigrin> With the countably infinite uncertainty drinking game ... after level 3 the uncertainty becomes uncertain ...
21:31:58 <Arnia> And, that by moving up a level of interaction you go up a level of uncertainty
21:32:07 * Arnia nukes perigrin
21:32:36 <Arnia> But this will be the core of the paper I'm working on I've decided, and the talk I'm giving in a week and a half
21:32:47 <nsh> awesome
21:32:54 <perigrin> with drinks?
21:33:10 <Arnia> perigrin: optional, but encouraged
21:33:19 * perigrin remembers a talk about a mailing list manager that was filled with tequila for certain members of the audience.
21:33:47 * nsh remembers a talk about the coming rapture that was filled with kool-aide..
21:33:50 <Arnia> quite a productive evening all things considered
21:34:30 <nsh> Arnia, do you think it could be expained for the layman?
21:34:44 <Arnia> nsh: let me grab something to eat and I'll try
21:34:49 <nsh> sure man
21:35:03 <Arnia> My audience are not experts in category theory, so I'm going to have to do this for the talk anyway
21:36:51 <nsh> ah, that's good
21:37:49 * nsh has a Hurley - Concise guide to logic 7th edition. wonder if anything about heyting algebras of sheaves will be in there
21:38:34 <nsh> nuppers
21:38:52 <Arnia> Heyting algebra = complete distributive lattice where every element has a 'pseudo-complement'
21:39:09 <perigrin> ...
21:39:31 * perigrin reaches for a "concise guide to logic 7th grade edition"
21:40:07 <perigrin> I live in a country where we compete to see who is smarter than a 5th grader.
21:41:49 <[ruiner]> wooo god bless america!
21:42:41 <perigrin> home of the free and brave ... says nothin about the smart
21:42:51 <nsh> hmmm
21:43:03 <nsh> can you not search for files with text in vista?
21:44:53 <nsh> hmmm
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21:48:36 * Arnia eats milk chocolate digestives
21:48:40 <[ruiner]> http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/11/encrypted-e-mai.html
21:48:49 <Arnia> Sorry, low blood sugar taking a while to fix
21:48:49 <nsh> so in boolean algebra, any element has a compliment, but in hayting algebra, you only have relative compliments
21:48:49 <nsh> ?
21:49:00 <nsh> (no worries)
21:49:06 <[ruiner]> Arnia: you dont need an excuse to eat delicious chocolate
21:49:13 * [ruiner] does that right now.
21:49:49 <Arnia> [ruiner]: uh, am diabetic so yes
21:49:49 <Arnia> yes I do
21:49:51 <nsh> i think diabetes is less of an excuse than a chore
21:50:02 <[ruiner]> chocolate is never a chore
21:50:02 <[ruiner]> mnnnz.
21:50:05 <nsh> or, alternatively, awesome bonus reason
21:50:26 <Arnia> nsh: but yes, that is the difference between Boolean and Heyting algebras.
21:50:37 <nsh> right
21:50:49 <Arnia> It basically captures the difference between having two truth values and an entire space of them
21:51:01 <nsh> where they use <=, is that a fuzzy value between 0 and 1 on the real line?
21:51:11 <nsh> e.g. a /\ b <= c
21:51:28 <Arnia> Don't think of the word fuzzy; think of it as just being a point from a space
21:51:37 <nsh> ok cool
21:51:41 <Arnia> where a, b and c are open sets in that space
21:51:47 <nsh> ah
21:52:05 * perigrin got it from fuzzy *sigh*
21:52:11 <Arnia> <= is the partial order relation on these sets
21:52:29 <nsh> hmm
21:53:01 <Arnia> And /\ is the infimum and \/ is the supremum
21:53:08 <nsh> i get a partially ordered set, but how do you partially-order over more than one set to say that one is <= to another?
21:53:29 <nsh> oh, i see (wikipedia picture makes it clear)
21:53:41 <perigrin> link?
21:53:41 <Arnia> Whatever partial ordering relation you need
21:53:42 <nsh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partially_ordered_set
21:53:59 * nsh nods
21:54:00 <Arnia> Often you use set inclusion
21:54:53 <nsh> but it can be any binary relation
21:55:31 <nsh> (that is reflexive, antisymmetric and transitive)
21:55:37 <Arnia> Any binary, reflexive, transitive and antisymmet... right
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21:56:16 <Arnia> To form a Heyting algebra you need the relation to also induce a distributive lattive
21:56:19 <Arnia> lattice
21:56:49 <Arnia> That is, any pair of elements of the partial order have a least upper bound (supremum) and a greatest lower bound (infimum)
21:57:17 <nsh> and that restriction ensures that the distributive law holds?
21:57:32 <Arnia> and a \/ (b /\ c) iff (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c)
21:57:47 <Arnia> No, you need to impose the distributive law too
21:57:57 <nsh> ok
21:58:22 <nsh> (i'm not really clear on lattices)
21:58:40 <nsh> having the LUB and GLB makes the lattice bounded?
21:58:47 <nsh> (i guess that's obvious)
21:58:50 <Arnia> yeah
21:59:29 <Arnia> I think it also works out that the lattice is directed, but I'm not sure
22:00:04 <Arnia> I'm also not sure about compact elements, although that may follow
22:00:47 * nsh nods (doesn't mean a great deal to me atm anyway)
22:01:26 <nsh> ok
22:02:25 <Arnia> well, directedness is what allows you to define continuity and compactness allows you to work with finite definitions
22:02:40 <Arnia> as far as my own understanding goes anyway
22:03:10 <Arnia> Ok, so let us consider the motivations for dealing with disagreement.
22:03:33 <Arnia> I think we can (mostly) agree that every statement may be disagreed with
22:03:43 <perigrin> I disagree!
22:03:50 <Arnia> And this poses a problem for open-world systems with a closed-world semantics
22:03:55 <Arnia> perigrin: thank you for being on cue
22:04:00 * nsh smiles
22:04:04 <perigrin> I'm nothing if not expected :)
22:04:47 <nsh> Arnia, an open world system is one where the domain is not restricted? closed-world semantics means that the semantic relations are fixed?
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22:05:25 <Arnia> An open-world system is one where knowledge is incomplete and a closed-world system is one where you know everything a priori
22:05:34 <nsh> ah
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22:06:24 <Arnia> Now, if you have binary truth values then what sort of disagreement about a statement can you have. If you think it is true and I do as well, that's fine. If you think it is false and so do I, again this is good. But what if you think it is true and I think it false (or vice versa)? How do we resolve our beliefs about such and such a statement?
22:06:59 <nsh> right, with difficulty
22:07:35 <Arnia> So, we need more room to negotiate in
22:08:05 <nsh> so we extend our certainty information from the binary true/false to some algebraic space?
22:08:13 <Arnia> The solution generally presented is to extend truth values to be taken from the interval [0,1]
22:08:22 <nsh> right
22:08:54 <Arnia> Now this allows us to deal with observations; a single agent getting information from an open world. But does it allow us to deal with two agents interacting?
22:09:19 <perigrin> that also predicates that there is total agreement and disagreement with a statement
22:09:50 <Arnia> perigrin: I'll get there in a sec
22:09:53 <perigrin> k
22:10:24 <Arnia> Consider Alice and Bob... Alice hasn't gotten along with Bob since he told her the moon was made of cheese. Now Bob tells Alice that he is positive that the world is round, and he has run a number of tests to prove it
22:10:54 <Arnia> Alice currently believes the world is flat, and she's done her own tests which have convinced her to a certain degree
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22:11:25 <Arnia> How can you balance Alice and Bob's observations (the tests) to merge the statements they have made?
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22:12:14 <nsh> you construct a system whereby the certainty of both can be encapsulated without contradiction
22:12:26 <nsh> (certainty degrees, or whathaveyou)
22:12:29 <Arnia> Again, the answer generally given is to assign a value to Alice and Bob's degrees of belief from the interval [0,1]
22:12:51 <perigrin> yay membership functions!
22:12:55 <Arnia> Now that is as far as people have gone so far in the literature. They work up to what I call 2-uncertainty
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22:13:19 <Arnia> Uncertainty about uncertainty, often expressed using an interval in [0,1]
22:13:33 <Arnia> I propose going further
22:14:05 <perigrin> er hold on a sec
22:14:40 <nsh> perigrin, think this is talk-mode, wait til question time
22:14:41 <perigrin> wouldn't quantifying Alice and Bob's observatiosn with membership functions only be 1-ary uncertinty?
22:15:00 <perigrin> if i don't clarify now I'll get lost before talk time and start eating my shoe
22:15:02 <Arnia> No, questions are fine
22:15:03 * MoiraA is still up
22:15:11 <nsh> ok
22:15:56 <Arnia> perigrin: no, Alice and Bob have their own degrees of belief from the experiments they've performed. They have their own 1-uncertainty. The 2-uncertainty comes when their degrees of belief have to be merged
22:16:06 <perigrin> Ahh 'k
22:16:21 <Arnia> Ok, so is that clear?
22:16:34 * nsh nods
22:16:34 <perigrin> the c in their a /\ b <= c
22:17:20 <perigrin> yes I think so
22:17:49 <Arnia> Now, what happens if you want to take two communities of agents which don't entirely trust each other and combine their statements?
22:18:30 <Arnia> You need to weight the weight of the degree of belief... so we introduce yet another truth value from the interval [0,1]
22:18:49 <nsh> hrmm
22:19:04 <perigrin> how strongly c's compare to each other (?)
22:19:19 <nsh> i'm not sure how you get to a third level from the interaction of two groups, Arnia
22:19:47 <Arnia> To see this, consider the arguments that break out between departments at different universities... each department considers their model to be 'right' even if the faculty members don't necessarily agree entirely internally and have their own reasons (evidence) for their positions
22:20:01 <Arnia> But the department has a unified front
22:20:37 <Arnia> (especially when dealing with the ignominy of research council rejection)
22:20:45 <perigrin> or religious groups in a single denomination
22:20:45 * nsh smiles
22:21:14 <nsh> (i'm not entirely convinced any mathematical logic enters into the proverbial equation in either of those examples)
22:21:18 * perigrin must make more bottle
22:22:08 <Arnia> nsh: but why not? Such situations occur the moment we break the closed-world and objectivist assumptions
22:22:47 <nsh> Arnia, but you don't need to introduce grouping for that. the degrees of certain between three individual agents would lead to a third level of certainty
22:23:23 <nsh> *degrees of certainty
22:23:26 <Arnia> nsh: imagine a long and complex proof, like Wiles' proof of Fermat's Last Theorem. It takes a long time to check, and it is possible for the proof-readers to disagree whether or not the proof is correct
22:23:38 * nsh nods
22:24:21 <Arnia> nsh: the grouping thing is mostly an abstraction mechanism. To show how the tower builds as you add social levels
22:24:39 <nsh> ah, ok
22:24:50 <Arnia> and to show a nice progression from closed-world systems (0-uncertain) to inter-community interaction (3-uncertain)
22:25:05 <nsh> i see
22:25:49 <Arnia> I'm trying to explain things... ideally though I'd want a proof that in a sufficiently powerful Heyting algebra that levels beyond a certain point approach a limit
22:26:07 <Arnia> (which means you don't need to worry about any of the higher levels)
22:26:14 <nsh> right
22:26:19 <perigrin> Also the aggregate certainties of the groups is not neccesarrily emergent from the aggregate cretaintis of the individuals
22:26:50 <Arnia> But to do that I need to define what uncertainty (and disagreement) is in a very general sense. Which is what I'm doing...
22:27:13 <perigrin> I can see places where it would be more useful to apply a different membership function to the inter-group level than to the intra-group level
22:27:29 <nsh> i don't know where you're getting membership functions from, perigrin
22:27:52 <Arnia> Yeah... I'm deliberately avoiding defining any notion of membership functions or even sets
22:27:54 <perigrin> sorry fuzzy logic term for the relationaship function between a element and it's degree of membership in a set
22:28:07 <Arnia> Hence why I said 'don't think fuzzy'
22:28:14 <nsh> think topological
22:28:16 <perigrin> I'm not a rigorous mathmatician ... I only have the terms at hand
22:28:25 <perigrin> and I never took topology :p
22:29:26 <perigrin> wasn't required for an english degree at my uni
22:29:28 <Arnia> ok, I'm going to take a quick break to clear my head. Ask any questions and I'll answer when I get back. I'll describe the categorical 'implementation' of these ideas after that.
22:29:43 * nsh nods
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22:34:08 <nsh> so, Agents have direct certainty systems, relations between themselves and propositions. They also have indirect certainty systems with each other's direct certainty systems. You're thesis is that you can go further and further along this chain, dealing with certainty-of-certainty-of-{...}-certainty-systems, where the bottom of the chain is always a set of relations between propositions and an agent or group of agents
22:34:16 <nsh> *Your
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22:35:18 <nsh> .. but that as you go further and further from the original certainty systems, there is convergence to a limit
22:36:24 <nsh> which makes it recursive, in a sense?
22:36:39 <Arnia> hopefully. I don't know that yet, but even if there isn't a limit at least I have a framework to talk about communities of information
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22:36:45 <nsh> right
22:37:23 <Arnia> And yes, I'm sort of hoping I can define an omega-complete chain and borrow some results from domain theory for the analysis (if I ever finally get my head around domain theory)
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22:37:40 <nsh> .wik Omega-complete
22:37:42 <MoiraA> ok, this is me - gone
22:37:44 <phenny> "I and thou - I Ching - I-Ching - I-proposition - I-Thou - I-Thou relationship" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_philosophical_topics_(I-Q)
22:37:49 <MoiraA> bed, wonderful bed
22:37:58 <nsh> sleep well, MoiraA :-)
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22:38:12 <Arnia> But if I can define this, the effect would be that communities compute (computation can be shown to be equivalent to the existence of such chains)
22:38:31 <Arnia> .wik domain theory
22:38:34 <phenny> "Domain theory is a branch of mathematics that studies special kinds of partially ordered sets (posets) commonly called domains." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_theory
22:38:51 <nsh> sounds like a consensus engine
22:39:25 <nsh> idea i've pecked at a few times over the last couple of years
22:39:35 <Arnia> nsh: mm... not 'consensus', which implies that the system is decidable, but rather a 'meme machine'
22:39:51 <nsh> hmm
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22:40:16 <Arnia> nsh: if the system never reaches a fixed point, but orbits then you'd have a stable but undecidable set of beliefs
22:40:19 <Arnia> (for example)
22:40:24 <nsh> right
22:41:05 <nsh> i wouldn't define consensus that restrictively, but perhaps it implies that
22:41:30 <Arnia> This work is, incidentally, entirely independently of the form of the statements being given certainties. They could be sets, like perigrin was working with, or something more exotic. I'm deliberately not considering the embedding of this truth theory into a logic at this moment
22:41:48 * nsh nods. good idea
22:41:55 <Arnia> (I need to know what I'm taking truth to be before I even consider that stage)
22:42:30 <Arnia> What I want to show is that you can view an n-uncertain system as a product of n Heyting algebras
22:43:19 <Arnia> This requires me to prove the following:
22:43:39 <perigrin> I'm not on crack
22:43:51 <Arnia> First, that a 0-uncertain system is isomorphic to the terminal object in the category of Heyting algebras
22:44:30 <Arnia> Secondly, that interval logic can be viewed as working on a *pair* of Heyting algebras rather than a single interval valued one
22:45:26 <Arnia> Thirdly, that continuous functions exist between uncertain systems which are distributively monotone
22:45:52 <Arnia> The rest should follow by definition
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22:46:05 <nsh> hmm
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22:47:05 <Arnia> Point two is actually already proven by someone else, but not for the same purpose as mine (mostly done to avoid needing to reason with infinite sets of points, instead just reason with the end points)
22:47:26 <nsh> can you englishify "terminal objective in the category of heyting algebras"?
22:48:17 <Arnia> A terminal object, 1, in a category is an object for which for all objects A there exists a unique morphism from A to 1
22:48:31 <Arnia> A terminal object is unique up to isomorphism
22:49:06 <Arnia> For example, {*} (the arbitrary singleton set) is terminal in the category of Set
22:49:24 <Arnia> (there exists a unique morphism from every set to the singleton set)
22:50:19 <nsh> hmm
22:50:37 <Arnia> The category of Heyting algebras has Heyting algebras for objects and continuous functions for morphisms; so the (we're working up to isomorphism) terminal object would be a Heyting algebra for which there is a unique continuous function from any Heyting algebra to it.
22:51:07 <Arnia> I need to show that the algebra 2 (that of true and false) is the terminal object
22:51:30 <Arnia> I think that may be already known, but I haven't checked yet
22:51:40 <nsh> interesting
22:52:56 <Arnia> any further questions?
22:53:16 <nsh> nah, i think that's enough for me to chew on for a bit
22:53:24 <nsh> fascinating idea though
22:53:37 <nsh> hope you get some nice proofs
22:53:38 <Arnia> Yeah, came up with it whilst doodling this evening
22:53:51 <nsh> doodling can be useful that way
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22:54:03 <Arnia> Think it shows some potential
22:54:14 * nsh nods
22:55:32 <Arnia> If it does work it means my efforts at describing a categorical model of RDF haven't been in vain
22:56:13 <nsh> RDF being an open-world system and (n-)hayting algebras being a closed-world semantics?
22:57:22 <Arnia> Well, using this model of n-uncertainty to characterise the behaviour of information in open-world systems like the semantic web
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22:58:52 <nsh> .wik Word problem
22:58:55 <phenny> "For a type of textbook problem designed to help students apply abstract mathematical concepts to 'real-world' situations, see Word problem (mathematics education)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_problem
22:59:01 <nsh> .wik Word problem (mathematics)
22:59:03 <phenny> "In mathematics and computer science, a word problem for a set S with respect to a system of finite encodings of its elements, is the algorithmic problem of deciding whether two given representatives represent the same element of the set." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_problem_(mathematics)
23:00:03 <perigrin> I was obviously on the wrong side of that net split
23:00:58 <Arnia> perigrin: what are your thoughts?
23:01:25 <perigrin> I'm excited by it ...
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23:01:38 <perigrin> but that is possibly becasue I have only a limited grasp :)
23:02:20 <perigrin> and yes ... I can see how it would directly apply to integration of RDF graphs
23:03:20 <Arnia> anyone else present with any questions or comments (good or ill)
23:04:00 <perigrin> it would allow a form of (and excuse my missues of terms here) reification between quantification functions ... I'm thinking specifically of trust metric integration
23:05:14 * perigrin discovers someone he knows will be playing on Radio 3 on the 16th ... wonders if Radio 3 streams
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23:06:07 <Arnia> perigrin: I'll leave that up to swig to think about ;) I'm more interested in the abstract ;)
23:06:26 <perigrin> so is swig ... just a different level of abstraction ...
23:06:37 <perigrin> but make it useable for sbp and you've got a chance :D
23:07:29 <Arnia> hehe
23:07:40 <Arnia> Once I have slides I'll post the link
23:07:47 <Arnia> Dunno when I'll finish the paper itself though
23:09:32 * Arnia puts the Doctor Who Series 3 soundtrack on again
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23:16:48 <crschmidt> .pc ШТГ
23:16:50 <phenny> 0428: CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER SHA (Ш)
23:16:53 <phenny> 0422: CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER TE (Т)
23:16:57 <phenny> 0413: CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GHE (Г)
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23:33:19 <Monty> hey KragenSitaker
23:33:21 <KragenSitaker> My pillow?
23:34:46 <deltab> perigrin: it does: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/listen/
23:34:55 <perigrin> yay
23:35:04 * perigrin makes a note to listen on the 16th
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23:39:08 <Arnia> perigrin: who is it?
23:39:39 <perigrin> former coworker of mine who fronts the Luke Barlow band
23:39:57 <perigrin> I'll leave figuring out his name as a lemma for the reader
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23:41:10 <procto> anyone here happen to have a jaiku invite?
23:42:35 <jsled> NO, JAIKU!
23:42:47 * Arnia nukes jsled
23:42:53 <procto> ?
23:43:07 <Arnia> Right, next thing to think about. Axioms for the web
23:43:13 * Arnia may have some
23:50:15 <procto> axioms FOR the web?
23:50:21 <procto> or axioms OF the web?
23:50:52 <Arnia> Axioms of the Web
23:50:57 <Arnia> Sounds like a Doctor Who story
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23:53:01 <perigrin> Web of the Axioms
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23:54:30 <Arnia> Adjective of Noun!
23:54:59 <perigrin> Attack of teh Axioms!
23:56:33 <Arnia> Ahaha... facebook group 'Campaign to enforce "Spillage=Lickage" in Chemistry Labs'
23:58:39 <perigrin> hehe
