2007-11-17 Swhack IRC Log

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00:38:06 <Arnia> I can't recommend this column enough by the way; http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/TWF.html
00:41:01 <_bjoern> .t EST
00:41:04 <phenny> Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:18:51 EST
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01:09:01 <Arnia> Oh Mathematics, you are a beautiful but cold mistress!
01:09:15 <_bjoern> You need to get out more.
01:09:59 *** _bjoern changed the topic to: "Happy International Students Day"
01:10:02 <Arnia> I just love how everything glues together
01:10:42 <KragenSitaker> no, _bjoern. people who get out too much get distracted from the good things in life.
01:10:47 <KragenSitaker> Like mathematics.
01:21:17 <KragenSitaker> .cp smili
01:21:19 <KragenSitaker> .cp smile
01:21:19 <phenny> 263A: WHITE SMILING FACE (☺)
01:21:21 <phenny> 2323: SMILE (⌣)
01:21:22 <phenny> 263B: BLACK SMILING FACE (☻)
01:21:48 <KragenSitaker> .cp with stamp
01:21:50 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'with stamp'.
01:21:56 <KragenSitaker> .cp stamp
01:21:58 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'stamp'.
01:22:05 <KragenSitaker> .cp face
01:22:06 <phenny> 1366: ETHIOPIC PREFACE COLON (፦)
01:22:09 <phenny> 222F: SURFACE INTEGRAL (∯)
01:22:12 <phenny> 2639: WHITE FROWNING FACE (☹) [...]
01:27:59 <therethinker> Does anyone know the IRC channel for the X server?
01:28:04 <therethinker> its not X... or Xserver :P
01:28:21 <therethinker> ... got it, xorg
01:28:21 <Arnia> therethinker: xorg
01:46:52 <_bjoern> phenny, tell niq Hey niq, I probably read your Transfer-Encoding patch incorrectly, but it doesn't seem like you actually read the encoded body from the socket, so unless the Not Implemented also closes the connection, you would still mishandle subsequent or pipelined requests, no?
01:46:54 <phenny> _bjoern: I'll pass that on when niq is around.
01:59:54 <Arnia> "However, often the analytic nature of the generating function doesn’t interest us; we
01:59:55 <Arnia> love it only for its role as a clothesline on which our sequence is hanging out to dry." -- H. Wilf, Generatingfunctionology
02:00:05 <deltab> .cp postal
02:00:07 <phenny> 3012: POSTAL MARK (〒)
02:00:10 <phenny> 3020: POSTAL MARK FACE (〠)
02:00:13 <phenny> 3036: CIRCLED POSTAL MARK (〶) [...]
02:00:49 <KragenSitaker> deltab: thank you!
02:01:33 <deltab> you're welcome
02:01:44 <deltab> I wonder how far AI is from being able to figure that one out
02:02:50 <[ruiner]> my robots already do that
02:02:56 <[ruiner]> they slice and dice, and self replicate
02:02:59 <[ruiner]> and they're comin for j00
02:03:03 <[ruiner]> WOO TECHNOLOGY
02:03:05 <[ruiner]> woo coffee.
02:06:57 <Arnia> woo nukes trained on your position
02:08:51 <[ruiner]> silly girl
02:08:55 <[ruiner]> you cant train nukes
02:08:58 <[ruiner]> i tried.
02:09:06 <[ruiner]> all they do is blow up in your face
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02:31:43 * Arnia is http://www.dur.ac.uk/j.r.c.geldart/personal/
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02:35:01 <Arnia> i.e. not a girl
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02:39:02 <perigrin> but you are silly
02:40:03 <Arnia> Oh yes; definitely that
02:40:11 * Arnia trips the light fantastic
02:41:25 * perigrin picks Arnia up off the floor where he tripped
02:41:33 <Arnia> Thank you
02:41:36 * perigrin sighs
02:41:38 * Arnia dusts himself down
02:41:49 <Arnia> ooh... pretty dust
02:42:01 <perigrin> BBC-- # won't connect for me to watch the Doctor.
02:43:19 <Arnia> Non UKIAN
02:43:34 * perigrin pouts
02:43:45 <perigrin> I paid every single TV License they asked for.
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04:06:09 <_bjoern> phenny, tell niq Okay it seems Apache closes the connection in this case. Thanks for the patch(es).
04:06:11 <phenny> _bjoern: I'll pass that on when niq is around.
04:07:27 <_bjoern> phenny, tell niq The "Something that isn't in HTTP, unless some future edition defines new transfer ecodings, is unsupported." comment isn't quite right though, the request is perfectly proper under RFC 2616; more like "Apache only supports Transfer-Encoding: chunked".
04:07:29 <phenny> _bjoern: I'll pass that on when niq is around.
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04:15:09 <_bjoern> .g rfc 2616 errata
04:15:11 <phenny> _bjoern: http://skrb.org/ietf/http_errata.html
04:16:02 <_bjoern> Well I guess I better comment on the bug...
07:44:53 <sbp> <Arnia> timbl_: ever thought about joining the Eskimo division of Frigidaire sales? :)
07:53:05 <_bjoern> OMG SBP
07:55:29 <_bjoern> I've reimplemented the Follow TCP Stream feature in Wireshark in Perl...
07:55:35 <_bjoern> First test run of the code failed utterly.
07:56:18 <_bjoern> Disappointingly because I didn't do HTTP over TCP over IP over Ethernet, but HTTP over TCP over IP over PPPOE over ...
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07:57:16 <_bjoern> I'm also slightly concerned that WireShark does not seem to honor closure of the stream ...
07:57:56 <_bjoern> so if you connect to the same server on the same port using the same local port you get that treated as a single session
07:58:10 <_bjoern> perhaps that's good enough for WireShark though...
07:59:01 <_bjoern> There does not seem to be a module that takes one from $whereever down to the TCP level, maintaining higher level information like, say, IP addresses...
08:08:25 <_bjoern> maybe Net::Packet has something for it...
08:15:43 <_bjoern> okay works now... I'm a bit worried though that all traffic seems to flow in the same direction...
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08:22:24 <Tene> Like capitalism!
08:23:49 <[ruiner]> net::capitalism
08:24:02 <_bjoern> .g Capitalism site:search.cpan.org
08:24:05 <phenny> _bjoern: http://search.cpan.org/src/MSCHWERN/Tie-Cache-LRU-0.21/bench/big_test_data
08:24:11 <_bjoern> .gc Capitalism site:search.cpan.org
08:24:13 <phenny> Capitalism site:search.cpan.org: 9
08:24:18 <[ruiner]> lul
08:32:44 <sbp> <_bjoern> I've reimplemented the Follow TCP Stream feature in Wireshark in Perl...
08:32:45 <sbp> OMGZ
08:32:55 <_bjoern> ah right, I found the problem... the code also does not check the initial handshake,
08:32:56 <sbp> SOON THE HTTP ARCHIVER WILL BE COMPLETE
08:33:04 <sbp> and when it is, give 2 sbp plz thc
08:33:21 <_bjoern> ... so it does not know who is server and who is client
08:33:31 <sbp> heh
08:33:44 <sbp> "I thought *you* were the server!" "lol, no"
08:34:31 <sbp> so how does the wiretapping work in general?
08:34:47 <_bjoern> Well somebody would have to implement a HTTP message parser to make it complete...
08:35:00 <sbp> yeah, you would
08:35:24 <sbp> and do a better job than your PHP port!
08:35:46 <_bjoern> my PHP port is better than Apache I found yesterday!
08:35:52 <sbp> hehe, yeah, saw that bug
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08:36:38 <Monty> howdy, Xanthor
08:37:39 <sbp> hmm, the rain spike that was predicted for tomorrow has gotten a bit smaller
08:37:50 <sbp> but now there's a huge Wednesday morning one
08:37:53 <sbp> awesome
08:38:20 * sbp takes a brief look at http://dublincore.org/documents/2007/07/02/domain-range/
08:40:20 <sbp> ugh, geograph's images have gone tits up
08:40:33 <sbp> all displaying a "DUDE THIS IS CREATIVE COMMONS LICENSED" message instead of the actual image
08:40:40 <sbp> way to go there, geograph
08:40:53 <_bjoern> As for the wiretapping, you set tcpdump and its ilk to capture traffic into a file, then let libpcap parse the file, the code I just implemented attempts to reconstruct tcp sessions and the (client to server, server to client) traffic; after that you'd have a HTTP dissector turn the traffic into (request, response) pairs, and would do what you want with it.
08:42:07 *** Xanthor is now known as Xanthor[aw]
08:43:20 <sbp> .gc "Pig Track"
08:43:23 <phenny> "Pig Track": 2,250
08:43:32 <sbp> I see, so you're just piggybacking tcpdump
08:47:00 <sbp> well, "just"
08:47:20 <_bjoern> Well libpcap really, but yes.
08:48:21 <_bjoern> "gzip is a content-encoding, not a transfer-encoding. The passage in RFC2616 that suggests otherwise is clearly a drafter who'd been staring at it too long, and had a brainfart." - niq.
08:48:26 <_bjoern> he's wrong, but okay...
08:48:40 <_bjoern> .g iana transfer encoding
08:48:42 <phenny> _bjoern: http://www.iana.org/assignments/transfer-encodings
08:48:53 <_bjoern> .g iana http transfer encoding
08:48:56 <phenny> _bjoern: http://www.iana.org/assignments/transfer-encodings
08:49:00 <_bjoern> .g iana http transfer codings
08:49:02 <phenny> _bjoern: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec3.html
08:49:14 <_bjoern> .g iana http transfer gzip
08:49:16 <phenny> _bjoern: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec3.html
08:49:19 <_bjoern> sucks
08:50:03 <_bjoern> ah http://www.iana.org/assignments/http-parameters
08:50:28 <_bjoern> I had it fixed a year ago! not sure what needed fixing anymore though...
08:50:54 <_bjoern> haha http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2005Oct/0015.html
08:51:22 <_bjoern> two years even
08:52:16 <_bjoern> .gc pack200-gzip
08:52:19 <phenny> pack200-gzip: 400
08:53:01 <sbp> hmm. they didn't reply to that, but did fix it?
08:53:16 <_bjoern> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2005OctDec/0006.html
08:55:58 <sbp> ah, good
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09:00:30 <_bjoern> okay the stream reconstruction stuff works now, except for ignoring the handshakes which become relevant only with much more traffic...
09:02:16 <_bjoern> (specifically "closing" the connection if the closing packets have been seen or with timeouts, knowing server vs. client is less relevant, though broken streams might be misinterpreted)
09:03:11 <_bjoern> I'm kinda amazed my straight port doesn't have any apparent bugs
09:03:26 <_bjoern> well I did use == instead of eq to compare ip addresses, but that was it...
09:04:09 <_bjoern> I think this is the first time I used a linked list in pure perl code...
09:09:03 <_bjoern> This kinda sucks, there is good server response and client request parsing code on CPAN...
09:09:13 <_bjoern> but no module that does both, at least no good one
09:09:31 <_bjoern> and it's kinda difficult to exploit the existing modules
09:10:11 <_bjoern> because if you pass them strings, they are likely to have trouble getting the message size determination wrong
09:12:19 <sbp> can't you just hack them into a single module yourself?
09:13:16 <_bjoern> I can copy and paste and fill in the missing bits and then turn myself in to some mental health clinic yes.
09:15:08 <sbp> excellent
09:17:02 <_bjoern> <咒> UR STEALING LINES AGAIN
09:17:43 <sbp> sry
09:17:47 <sbp> u know what sucks?
09:17:52 <sbp> SPARQL. trying to implement it now
09:18:09 <_bjoern> Oh I know an infinite number of things that suck!
09:18:17 <sbp> it's absolutely mad because it has all these definitions of things, and then no directions on how to use them
09:18:21 <_bjoern> Don't blame me, I sent comments, you didn't!
09:18:28 <sbp> this is true
09:18:28 <_bjoern> indeed...
09:19:09 <sbp> it's like it has this huge negative conformance section called "the specification"
09:25:46 <sbp> '"Have you heard the news?", he said with a grin. "The Vice President's gone mad!". "Where?" "Downtown." "When?" "Last night." "Hmm, gee, that's too bad."' - Clothesline Saga, Bob Dylan
09:26:09 <sbp> it's like prophetic literature
09:26:40 * sbp tries to get http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/r2#dawg-triple-pattern-001 working
09:29:37 <sbp> wow, it cites http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Multiset&oldid=163605900 for one of its datastructures
09:30:03 <sbp> so "a set which allows duplicates" or "a list which ignores order"
09:32:56 <sbp> Multiset[SolutionMapping{Variable('p'): URIReference(u'http://example.org/data/p'), Variable('q'): URIReference(u'http://example.org/data/v1')}, SolutionMapping{Variable('p'): URIReference(u'http://example.org/data/p'), Variable('q'): URIReference(u'http://example.org/data/v2')}]
09:32:58 <sbp> getting there
09:44:08 <_bjoern> Huh, Opera seems to send the TE: header
09:44:15 <_bjoern> last time I tested it it did not...
09:44:20 <_bjoern> "TE: deflate, gzip, chunked, identity, trailers"
09:44:29 <_bjoern> (it says what Transfer-Encodings it supports...)
09:44:38 <_bjoern> perhaps it does so only after some magix
09:46:18 <_bjoern> okay maybe there iz a bugz in my code
09:46:27 <_bjoern> get some strange nul bytes from time to time
09:46:52 <_bjoern> just prior to HTTP responses it seems
09:46:55 <sbp> <咒> IM IN UR CODE LAYING FAECAL NUL SACS
09:47:15 <_bjoern> <㋡> k!
09:47:19 <sbp> hehe
09:48:39 <_bjoern> lisppaste2: url?
09:48:39 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
09:49:39 <lisppaste2> _bjoern pasted "Opera doing no TE and then TE on the same server" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/50974
09:50:23 <_bjoern> I wonder whether that's a measure to keep the request small on servers unlikely to support T-E, or some bugworkaroundz or something else.
09:52:24 <sbp> does it sniff the server name from the first response and then flip a bit for the domain, perhaps?
09:52:39 <sbp> server software name
09:55:29 <_bjoern> I suppose it's something like that, but I am not sure why...
09:56:50 <_bjoern> well searching on google it turns up me saying opera doesn't do TE: ...
09:57:43 <sbp> _:set1 <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type> <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/result-set#ResultSet> .
09:57:43 <sbp> _:set1 <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/result-set#solution> _:solution2 .
09:57:43 <sbp> _:solution2 <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/result-set#binding> _:binding3 .
09:57:43 <sbp> _:binding3 <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/result-set#variable> "p" .
09:57:44 <sbp> _:binding3 <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/result-set#value> <http://example.org/data/p> .
09:57:50 <sbp> - etc. whee!
09:58:35 <_bjoern> <咒> I WEAR GOGGLES TO SHIELD MY EYES FROM THE EVILZ RDF
09:58:45 <_bjoern> <咒> U SHOULD, TOO
09:59:01 <sbp> ehheh. even Cedric Lolcurse cannot withstand the RDF
10:00:27 <_bjoern> http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/opera-patch-for-bad-behavior/ has a bit info
10:02:21 <sbp> hmm. not very much
10:02:25 <sbp> since it's for a plugin
10:02:39 <sbp> you don't know if the code it uses it plugin specific or if it's using some Opera-internal stuf
10:02:40 <sbp> ...f
10:03:09 <_bjoern> I meant Yngve's mail in the comments.
10:04:18 <sbp> ah!
10:04:33 <sbp> hmm, that just says proxies though
10:04:42 <sbp> your request wasn't going through a proxy was it?
10:05:02 <_bjoern> He does hint at the end at not sending TE if the server is not known to be a HTTP 1.1 one
10:05:35 <sbp> [[[
10:05:36 <sbp> G = Graph('data-01.ttl', format='turtle')
10:05:36 <sbp> rq = open('dawg-tp-01.rq')
10:05:36 <sbp> R = G.sparqlFile(rq)
10:05:36 <sbp> rq.close()
10:05:37 <sbp> E = Graph('result-tp-01.ttl', format='turtle')
10:05:39 <sbp> print 'success?', R == E
10:05:41 <sbp> ]]]
10:05:44 <sbp> gives...
10:05:46 <sbp> success? True
10:05:52 <sbp> which means WINNING HAS OCCURED AHAHAHA
10:06:07 <_bjoern> a true success!
10:06:23 * _bjoern hunts some f00d for the rejoicing.
10:06:27 <sbp> hehe
10:06:40 *** leobard (n=Miranda@88.134.43.245) has joined #swhack
10:06:42 <sbp> something with a lot of alcohol in it
10:09:01 <_bjoern> the local store had Absolut Vodka reduced by a third yesterday
10:09:13 <_bjoern> so I was all like, omg!, and then they just had a single bottle
10:09:20 <_bjoern> that one's mine now though!
10:09:53 <_bjoern> no murdered animals :(
10:10:29 <sbp> it's so drunk that it's lost its "e"
10:10:31 <_bjoern> phenny, "In der Not, ja in der Not, da schmeckt die Wurst auch ohne Brot"?
10:10:35 <phenny> _bjoern: "In the emergency, in the emergency, there the sausage tastes also without bread" (de)
10:11:09 <sbp> I think it should be spelled voddker
10:11:20 <sbp> names with double-d in them tend to rock
10:11:47 <_bjoern> .gc "absolut fodder"
10:11:49 <phenny> "absolut fodder": 0
10:12:08 <_bjoern> SUPYBOT IS MISSING
10:12:16 <sbp> agane
10:12:31 <_bjoern> I was all @translate en to de In the emergency, in the emergency, there the sausage tastes also without bread - but no dice!
10:12:46 <_bjoern> .mangle In the emergency, in the emergency, there the sausage tastes also without bread
10:12:49 <sbp> you'll have to use the old-skool web interface
10:12:56 <phenny> _bjoern: "In more in the urgency, which relates to the sausage urgency in the bucket of the proof of the outside of place given"
10:12:57 <_bjoern> I hate browsers.
10:14:33 <sbp> i too also hate teh browser overloards
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10:16:27 <_bjoern> oh my http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=24083
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10:21:46 * _bjoern 'd like to reply "YO ! PHP DUDEZ ! ob_gzhandler iz da shite ! MUST, repeat MUST, REMOVE B0G|_|5 CONTENT-LENGTH KTHXPLZBAI"
10:23:22 <sbp> hehe
10:23:30 <sbp> you should do it in l33t though
10:23:32 <_bjoern> but then of course I already gained some experience with the PHP bug fixing mentality...
10:23:44 <_bjoern> well I wrote it in haste!
10:23:52 <sbp> ㋡
10:23:58 <sbp> what is the PHP bug fixing mentality?
10:24:03 <sbp> emphasis on the mental?
10:25:21 <_bjoern> well, they don't fix bugs, and if they do it, introduce more bugs. and feel bugged if anyone bugs them about it.
10:26:03 <sbp> nice
10:26:15 <_bjoern> the mental health issues should be obvious from them being PHP developers, too.
10:26:27 <sbp> yes...
10:26:52 * sbp thinks about the interface, and plumps for R = G.sparqlURI('dawg-tp-01.rq', 'SELECT').graph()
10:27:05 <_bjoern> Ѹ!
10:27:14 <sbp> \Ѹ/
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10:27:28 <sbp> is there an OK?
10:27:31 <sbp> .unicode OK
10:27:31 <_bjoern> <咒> THIS MY FRIEND: Ӝ
10:27:35 <sbp> ahahah
10:27:35 <phenny> U+C63C HANGUL SYLLABLE OK (옼)
10:27:47 <sbp> 옼Ӝ咒
10:27:54 <_bjoern> With family: ӝӜӝ
10:27:57 <sbp> hehe
10:28:26 <_bjoern> Tӵrtle
10:28:46 <sbp> I forgot about just combining ö with stuff
10:28:50 <sbp> .̈̈̈̈̈
10:29:00 <_bjoern> Օ!
10:29:00 <sbp> so we only have to look for bodies really
10:29:02 <_bjoern> .pc Օ
10:29:04 <phenny> 0555: ARMENIAN CAPITAL LETTER OH (Օ)
10:29:18 <sbp> ⊂̈
10:29:39 <sbp> ⊹̈
10:29:40 <_bjoern> .cp ^0308
10:29:42 <phenny> 0308: COMBINING DIAERESIS (◌̈)
10:30:02 <sbp> ⌤ is quite good by itself
10:30:13 <_bjoern> hmm
10:30:15 <_bjoern> .pc א̈
10:30:17 <phenny> 05D0: HEBREW LETTER ALEF (א)
10:30:20 <phenny> 0308: COMBINING DIAERESIS (◌̈)
10:30:24 <sbp> not to mention these guys: ⍡⍢⍣⍤⍥⍨⍩
10:30:45 <_bjoern> What do you see here: ̈̈̈̈̈א
10:30:48 <sbp> ⍾̈
10:30:51 <sbp> it looks like an N
10:31:01 <sbp> a wavy, small-caps, N
10:31:17 <_bjoern> what about the combiners?
10:31:44 <sbp> ⓑ̈
10:31:50 <sbp> combiners? no combiners
10:32:01 <sbp> █̈
10:32:10 <_bjoern> .pc ̈̈̈̈̈א
10:32:12 <phenny> 0308: COMBINING DIAERESIS (◌̈)
10:32:15 <phenny> 0308: COMBINING DIAERESIS (◌̈)
10:32:16 <sbp> weird
10:32:18 <phenny> 0308: COMBINING DIAERESIS (◌̈)
10:32:28 <sbp> why did you put them before the N?
10:32:37 <sbp> I see now, they were hidden
10:32:48 <_bjoern> well they didn't combine if I put them behind it!
10:32:51 <_bjoern> here at least
10:32:51 <sbp> the diaereses were overlaying my "g" in guys
10:32:58 <sbp> hmm
10:32:59 <_bjoern> and from there on things got weird...
10:33:13 <sbp> ◡̈
10:33:22 <sbp> ☂̈
10:33:27 <sbp> ☁̈
10:33:29 <_bjoern> < ҿ̈ > hai
10:33:33 <sbp> hehe
10:33:41 <sbp> <☋̈> hai
10:33:52 <_bjoern> <ʡ> asl plz
10:34:02 <sbp> ♧/♘/♆
10:34:39 <sbp> ❝❤❣❞
10:34:51 <_bjoern> <ஹ> me sphinx
10:34:52 *** therethinker has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:35:30 <sbp> 〄̈
10:35:38 <_bjoern> I like these guys ଈ ଇ ଋ
10:35:43 <sbp> フ̈
10:35:52 <sbp> ah!
10:35:55 <sbp> ノ̈
10:35:59 <sbp> awesome
10:36:11 <sbp> it's the stroke from TU but with diaeresis eyes
10:36:22 <_bjoern> .pc ൠ̑
10:36:24 <phenny> 0D60: MALAYALAM LETTER VOCALIC RR (ൠ)
10:36:27 <phenny> 0311: COMBINING INVERTED BREVE (◌̑)
10:36:39 <sbp> ノ̈⃝
10:36:47 <sbp> hmm, that doesn't look good...
10:38:01 <sbp> I like the characters around ㌕㌚㌫㌮㌍㌇㌴㍇
10:38:05 <sbp> they look like such a mess
10:38:08 *** [ruiner] has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:38:11 <_bjoern> you could make an animation of ผฝพฟ
10:38:16 <sbp> hehe
10:38:21 <sbp> UniSMIL
10:38:57 <sbp> 丷
10:39:02 <sbp> 乊
10:39:06 <sbp> 乥
10:39:44 <sbp> 𐁂 is cool
10:40:06 <sbp> 𐃵
10:40:26 <sbp> .pc 𐂂
10:40:29 <phenny> 10082: LINEAR B IDEOGRAM B104 DEER
10:40:59 <_bjoern> There seems no precombined form of ҿ̈
10:41:24 <sbp> .pc 𐃅
10:41:27 <phenny> 100C5: LINEAR B IDEOGRAM B225 BATHTUB
10:41:49 <_bjoern> oh by the way,
10:41:55 <_bjoern> I CANT SEE A SINGLE OF UR CHARS LOL
10:42:42 <_bjoern> especially now that you've gone astral.
10:44:26 <_bjoern> ｯ is too small oddly
10:45:59 <_bjoern> <  > haz a hat
10:46:02 *** XcaliburZ (n=David@125.163.82.135) has joined #swhack
10:46:15 <_bjoern> .pc 
10:46:17 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for r'^E890\b'.
10:46:20 <XcaliburZ> today?
10:46:25 <_bjoern> yes.
10:46:28 <sbp> yeah, you need teh fonts
10:46:43 <_bjoern> Well I can't see my chars either!
10:46:47 <sbp> heh, heh
10:46:56 <sbp> get fonts plz
10:47:06 <sbp> let's see what the Linear B ideograms are in...
10:47:10 <XcaliburZ> so what is international students day?
10:47:10 <sbp> XcaliburZ: hi, welcome to Swhack
10:47:16 <sbp> dunno, who cares?
10:47:19 <_bjoern> .wik International Students Day
10:47:21 <phenny> "International Students' Day is an international observance of student activism, held annually on November 17." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Students_Day
10:47:22 <sbp> we wouldn't put it in the topic if we cared
10:47:22 <_bjoern> make fontforge not crash!
10:47:25 <XcaliburZ> hi,s bp
10:47:28 <sbp> yo
10:47:32 <sbp> this is a publically logged channel
10:47:38 <sbp> and you are David Susanto
10:47:53 <sbp> this is perhaps your weblog: http://blog.davidsusanto.com/
10:47:53 <XcaliburZ> yes
10:47:57 <sbp> you have not written much therein
10:48:06 <_bjoern> <<< secret message to sbp >>>
10:48:07 <_bjoern> sbp(u hav XcaliburZ pix plz)
10:48:09 <XcaliburZ> yes its is :shy:
10:48:13 <_bjoern> <<< ed sekret message >>>
10:48:31 <sbp> <<<lambda secret message on one line>>> _bjoern(no sry, u ask him??) <<</>>>
10:48:37 <sbp> okay, they're in Code2001
10:48:45 <XcaliburZ> sbp: r u from indonesia?
10:48:48 <_bjoern> <<< secret message to sbp >>>
10:48:55 <_bjoern> sbp(what asl plz)
10:48:57 <_bjoern> <<< ed sekret message >>>
10:48:57 <sbp> indonesia? where's that?
10:49:06 <XcaliburZ> hahaha...
10:49:25 <sbp> <<<lambda secret message on one line>>> _bjoern(what is asl plz is it a polish bot??) <<//>>
10:49:51 <_bjoern> <<< GLOBAL "NO POLISH BOTS!" REMINDER >>>
10:50:02 <sbp> <<< ACCEPTANCE OF REMINDER >>>
10:50:11 <sbp> .unicode sot y
10:50:14 <sbp> .unicode soft hy
10:50:14 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for "SOT Y".
10:50:16 <phenny> U+00AD SOFT HYPHEN (­)
10:50:17 <sbp> TWO KEYS FAILED
10:50:23 <sbp> :­:
10:50:32 <_bjoern> XcaliburZ, what made you join this channel?
10:50:42 <_bjoern> And is there a cure for it?
10:50:57 <XcaliburZ> just random search
10:51:02 <_bjoern> on what?
10:51:03 <XcaliburZ> :)
10:51:10 <XcaliburZ> on channel
10:51:23 <XcaliburZ> student channel
10:51:33 <sbp> omg
10:51:37 <sbp> but there are no students here
10:51:39 <sbp> well, a few
10:51:56 <XcaliburZ> so what is this? :))
10:51:58 <_bjoern> mostly pretenders though
10:52:05 <sbp> see swhack.com plz
10:52:07 <sbp> asl plz
10:52:20 <XcaliburZ> 21, m, bandung
10:52:23 <_bjoern> knowing what swhack is all about is lvl 17, 4000 CAD plz
10:52:27 <sbp> 'k many thx
10:52:42 <sbp> I think you're... possibly the second person who's ever actually told us
10:52:47 <_bjoern> any chance you could send some indonesian girls here?
10:52:51 <sbp> normally we go "AHAHAHA U WONT TELL US"
10:52:59 <sbp> but when people actually tell us, we're sorta stumped
10:53:02 <_bjoern> actually no! it's working rather well
10:53:06 <sbp> I suppose we could say: AHAHAHAHA U TOLD US!
10:53:10 <sbp> is it?
10:53:18 <_bjoern> let's see if this works
10:53:19 <_bjoern> .swhack , m,
10:53:40 <sbp> DO IT
10:54:12 <XcaliburZ> come to indonesia then
10:54:17 <XcaliburZ> a lot of girls here
10:54:19 <sbp> hehe. good advice
10:54:24 <phenny> _bjoern: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-10-27#T00-22-13
10:54:41 <_bjoern> not the right query...
10:54:42 <sbp> told you. one other person
10:55:13 <sbp> .gc "Historia Vitae Magistra"
10:55:16 <phenny> "Historia Vitae Magistra": 9,990
10:55:31 <sbp> Cicero, history is the teacher of life
10:55:47 <XcaliburZ> yuppie
10:55:52 <_bjoern> ha [28 Aug 07 01:15] * linuxperv * 14 f texas
10:55:55 <XcaliburZ> u sure do a lot of googling
10:55:59 <_bjoern> [01 Sep 07 07:56] * Sagar * 22 m
10:56:01 <sbp> NO
10:56:07 <sbp> only as much as a regular person
10:56:08 <_bjoern> [01 Sep 07 09:09] * SteamMachine * 20, male, Australia.
10:56:17 <XcaliburZ> hehehe...
10:56:21 <sbp> hmm, that is quite a few
10:56:25 <sbp> five now, then?
10:56:28 <_bjoern> [10 Sep 07 21:30] * procto * 20 m boston, ma
10:56:33 <sbp> SIX
10:56:45 <sbp> Sagar doesn't count though
10:56:48 <sbp> he didn't give l
10:56:59 <sbp> a/s/wtfisllol
10:57:02 <_bjoern> [17 Sep 07 11:41] * shriphani * 16 m india.
10:57:25 <_bjoern> [30 Sep 07 15:32] * thelsdj * bjoern_: 25/m/az
10:57:31 <sbp> hehe
10:57:44 <_bjoern> [02 Oct 07 09:16] * phenny * 3/fbot/internet
10:57:47 <sbp>   raise ValueError("Expected %s, got %s" % (form, R[0]))
10:57:47 <sbp> ValueError: Expected SELOCT, got SELECT
10:58:26 <_bjoern> [16 Oct 07 08:39] * Pip * bjoern_: YOUNG/ MALE/ HERE.
10:58:33 <sbp> no way
10:58:36 <sbp> lolpipz: PLZ
10:58:38 <_bjoern> [17 Oct 07 13:36] * dark * bjoern m 21
10:58:38 <sbp> lolpipz: ASL?
10:58:40 <lolpipz> sbp: DO YU PREFR BOOKZ OR TV?
10:58:40 <lolpipz> sbp: YOUNG/ MALE/ HERE.
10:58:52 <sbp> lolpipz: WHO IS XcaliburZ??
10:58:52 <lolpipz> sbp: HUMAN ICON? <BR> CHECK BACK LATR AND SEE IF I LEARN TEH ANSWR T THAT ONE.
10:59:21 <XcaliburZ> it's me... nothing...
10:59:21 <XcaliburZ> :)
10:59:27 <sbp> 'k sry
10:59:34 <_bjoern> [06 Nov 07 20:07] * Filnik * _bjoern: 17, male, Italy/Padua
10:59:49 <_bjoern> [06 Nov 07 21:32] * Catch * I'm 17, and female.
10:59:51 <XcaliburZ> which one is aaron?
10:59:56 <sbp> no one is Aaron
10:59:58 <sbp> he is not here
11:00:12 <sbp> _bjoern: fine, SEVEN
11:00:14 <_bjoern> [09 Nov 07 15:19] * thosch * 31 m galway, ireland
11:00:23 <XcaliburZ> is he the founder?
11:00:28 <_bjoern> [09 Nov 07 16:55] * m0d * for the record, im 28 years old, and i live in the Netherlands.
11:00:28 <sbp> co-founder
11:00:58 <_bjoern> <咒> _BJOERN WINZ
11:01:06 <sbp> how did you find the m0d one? it's so irregular
11:01:20 <_bjoern> I just /asl/'d.
11:01:53 <XcaliburZ> swhack -> software hack??
11:02:04 <sbp> see the FAQ
11:02:08 <sbp> .g Swhack FAQ
11:02:11 <phenny> sbp: http://swhack.com/faq/
11:02:13 <sbp> short answer: no
11:02:13 <XcaliburZ> oops, sorry
11:02:16 <sbp> long answer: NO!
11:02:43 <_bjoern> why is asl not in the faq? surely it's frequently asked.
11:02:56 <sbp> because it's not visitors asking it
11:03:07 <_bjoern> I can disproof that too!
11:03:12 <sbp> do it
11:03:34 <_bjoern> .origin glen_quagmire
11:03:51 <sbp> .swhack bjoern(?![_>]).*asl
11:04:05 <XcaliburZ> quote: When you join the channel, you should be greeted by some idiot saying something like "Hello, $name, and welcome to Swhack!
11:04:16 <sbp> yeah, that was me
11:04:20 <XcaliburZ> so the idiot is ...
11:04:28 <XcaliburZ> hyuk hyuk hyuk
11:04:28 <sbp> ME I JUST TOLD YOU
11:04:36 <XcaliburZ> yeah
11:04:36 <sbp> I also wrote the FAQ
11:04:44 <_bjoern> sbp(plz stop calling sbp idiot)
11:04:51 <XcaliburZ> hyuk hyuk hyuk
11:04:52 <_bjoern> sbp(iz shitrude)
11:04:58 <sbp> _bjoern(sry T_̈T)
11:05:03 <XcaliburZ> hyuk hyuk
11:05:13 <_bjoern> phenny!
11:05:15 <phenny> _bjoern!
11:05:19 <_bjoern> c'mon already.
11:06:19 <XcaliburZ> .g _bjoern
11:06:21 <phenny> XcaliburZ: http://www.last.fm/user/_Bjoern/
11:06:26 <phenny> First saw glen_quagmire on #swhack at 2007-05-18 01:10:15, saying 'asl?' (see http://swhack.com/logs/2007-05-18#T01-10-15)
11:06:35 <_bjoern> pwnt
11:06:42 <sbp> XcaliburZ: ờ̴̵̶̷̸̡̢̧̨̖̗̘̙̜̝̞̟̠̣̤̥̦̩̪̫̬̭̮̯̰̱̲̳̹̺̻̼͇͈͉͍͎́̂̃̄̅̆̇̈̉̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̽̾̿̀́͂̓̈́͆͊͋͌̕̚ͅ͏ְֱֲֳִֵֶַָׇֹֻּֽֿׁׂًٌٍَُِّْٰܑ͓͔͕͖͙͚֑֖֛֢֣֤֥֦֧֪ׅٕٖٜۣ۪ۭܱܴܷܸܹܻܼܾ֚֭֮͐͑͒͗͛ͣͤͥͦͧͨͩͪͫͬͭͮͯ҃҄҅҆֒֓֔֕֗֘֙֜֝֞֟֠֡֨֩֫֬֯ׄؐؑؒؓؔؕٓٔٗ٘ٙٚٛٝٞۖۗۘۙۚۛۜ۟۠ۡۢۤۧۨ۫۬ܰܲܳܵܶܺܽ͘͜͟͢͝͞͠͡
11:06:42 <sbp> ݂ܿ݀݁݃ooh, I just broke my input
11:06:48 <sbp> ah,there we go
11:06:50 <sbp> heh
11:06:53 <sbp> I can't see what I'm typing anymore
11:06:54 <XcaliburZ> what is that?
11:06:56 <sbp> stupid X-Chat
11:06:59 <sbp> it's a supercombiner
11:07:38 <sbp> lokwrpgokwrhmmhmmtestTHIS SI UNE TEXTdamndang man, I hax'd myself
11:07:38 <_bjoern> By now #Swhack newcomers have usually what little mind they had left when joining.
11:07:43 <sbp> ah, there we go
11:07:59 <sbp> still can't see my own input
11:08:03 <_bjoern> ！
11:08:03 <sbp> but at least I can type
11:08:32 <sbp> oskrpgokstgoksr
11:08:34 <sbp> hehe
11:08:40 <_bjoern> .pc ﺘ
11:08:43 <phenny> FE98: ARABIC LETTER TEH MEDIAL FORM (ﺘ)
11:08:43 <sbp> this is pretty annoying
11:08:48 <sbp> should probably restart X-Caht
11:08:57 <_bjoern> ... looks completely different in the fonts I have
11:09:23 <_bjoern> phenny, tell sbp u just broke your client to claim you didn't see my proof!
11:09:25 <phenny> _bjoern: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
11:09:51 <phenny> sbp: No results for "bjoern(?![_>]).*asl".
11:10:09 <_bjoern> I haz made u a ︻ ︻ ︻ ︻ ︻ bridge.
11:11:07 <sbp> thx. I has restarteds
11:11:09 <phenny> sbp: 11:47Z <_bjoern> tell sbp u just broke your client to claim you didn't see my proof!
11:11:13 <sbp> is now workink
11:12:32 <XcaliburZ> talkin bout what now?
11:12:36 <sbp> glen_quagmire doesn't count because he's a Swhacker
11:13:36 <_bjoern> he, you say...
11:14:30 <sbp> let us ascertain!
11:15:01 <XcaliburZ> bout what?
11:15:02 <_bjoern> you can ascert alone, pervert!
11:16:03 <sbp> okay, he or she hasn't used any * hello is her blah forms
11:16:19 <XcaliburZ> are there only 3 living persons in this channel??
11:16:28 <_bjoern> who's the third?
11:16:38 <XcaliburZ> me, u and u...
11:16:47 <XcaliburZ> umm.. which u is sbp
11:16:58 <XcaliburZ> umm the first one :P
11:16:58 <_bjoern> sbp(u there)
11:17:02 <_bjoern> .seen u
11:17:04 <phenny> Sorry, I haven't seen u around.
11:17:08 <sbp> 2007-06-21 23:50:23 * glen_quagmire knows neither C nor haskell
11:17:08 <_bjoern> no u
11:17:12 <XcaliburZ> .seen david
11:17:13 <sbp> neitHER
11:17:14 <phenny> Sorry, I haven't seen david around.
11:17:22 <XcaliburZ> .seen ghost
11:17:24 <phenny> Sorry, I haven't seen ghost around.
11:17:34 <XcaliburZ> .seen phenny
11:17:36 <phenny> Sorry, I haven't seen phenny around.
11:17:39 <XcaliburZ> wew
11:17:43 <_bjoern> I think bsh asl'd glen...
11:17:59 <_bjoern> I think we even privmsgd about it!
11:18:05 <sbp> omg
11:18:40 <XcaliburZ> halo semua apa kabar?
11:18:52 <_bjoern> phenny, "halo semua apa kabar"?
11:18:55 <phenny> _bjoern: Hmm, got "malay"...
11:19:07 <XcaliburZ> nope..
11:19:14 <sbp> dia orang yang terkenal sekali
11:19:22 <XcaliburZ> phenny, "you're wrong!"
11:19:33 <sbp> termakan Monty
11:19:36 <XcaliburZ> dia adalah saya
11:19:37 <Monty> pedestal's extra-marital criminal record piddles terms's Euclidian symphony!
11:19:44 <_bjoern> phenny, "you're wrong!"?
11:19:48 <phenny> _bjoern: "As for those by mistake it is!" (en -...-> en)
11:20:18 <_bjoern> lolpipz: have you ever been to indonesia?
11:20:18 <lolpipz> _bjoern: I DONT THINK I HAVE BEEN THERE. WHERE AR TEH IT.
11:20:39 <_bjoern> lolpipz: I don't know! Maybe XcaliburZ can tell u.
11:20:39 <lolpipz> _bjoern: ME EITHR. PERHAPZ. ENOUGH ABOUT ME, LETZ TALK ABOUT MUH DRESZ. KTHX.
11:21:03 <_bjoern> I'd like to talk about the strange nul bytes in my tcp dumps
11:21:05 <XcaliburZ> somewhere in heaven
11:22:09 * Arnia boings
11:22:54 <_bjoern> lolpipz: What if Swhack Were A MOO?
11:22:54 <lolpipz> _bjoern: TRY IT AND SEE.
11:23:02 <sbp> Arɛnia!
11:23:25 * Arnia explodes for your edification and pleasure
11:24:04 <_bjoern> .gc bathe in unicode
11:24:06 <phenny> bathe in unicode: 36,200
11:25:13 <_bjoern> there is a gmane.comp.misc.swhack newsgroup!
11:25:23 <sbp> .g gmane.comp.misc.swhack
11:25:26 <phenny> sbp: http://news.gmane.org/group/gmane.comp.misc.swhack/last=/force_load=t
11:25:35 <sbp> what's in it?
11:25:40 <_bjoern> .swhack gmane.comp.misc.swhack
11:25:43 <_bjoern> nothing?!
11:25:54 <sbp> oh, 0 posts. yeah
11:25:56 <sbp> cool
11:26:04 <sbp> Swhack is on USENET!
11:26:11 <Arnia> A newsgroup with no news... very swhack
11:26:15 <sbp> contributing NOTHING
11:26:15 <sbp> yeah
11:26:16 <sbp> hehe
11:26:31 <_bjoern> you wanted to name it gmanic.comp.miscellanise.swhack.kaboominate instead.
11:26:59 <sbp> heh, heh
11:27:03 <_bjoern> with stats! http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.misc.swhack
11:27:04 *** SinDoc (n=skh@204.28-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #swhack
11:27:19 <XcaliburZ> i'ts night in here
11:27:27 <XcaliburZ> saturday night
11:27:27 * sbp inspects http://swhack.com/logs/2006-11-28
11:28:05 <Arnia> XcaliburZ: SHHHHHH
11:28:22 <Arnia> XcaliburZ: I haven't done my eight impossible things yet
11:28:53 <sbp> come on dude, it's gone midday
11:28:54 <_bjoern> you could travel to the "U.S." and do them in the past. if you travel fast enough.
11:29:35 <sbp> don't be so ridiculous
11:29:53 <sbp> even if the "U.S." existed, even hypothetically, who would want to travel to it?
11:30:07 <_bjoern> people who want to live in the past?
11:30:29 <sbp> nah, they'd go to Canada, eh?
11:30:47 <_bjoern> There they'd get tasered.
11:30:58 <phenny> _bjoern: No results for "gmane.comp.misc.swhack".
11:31:11 <_bjoern> haz a bugz
11:34:02 <sbp> no? u?
11:34:12 <sbp> \ .swhack is bizarrely slow today, too
11:35:05 <Arnia> \. \.!!! \!
11:35:52 <_bjoern> .\\‗//.
11:37:41 <Arnia> ___:/=======||=============||=============||___
11:38:12 <sbp> @nickometer ...
11:38:42 <Arnia> @nickometer sbp
11:38:51 <Arnia> No supy
11:40:51 <_bjoern> ╔═══╗
11:40:51 <_bjoern> ╚═══╝
11:41:47 *** SinDoc has quit ("Safe OS Update")
11:41:55 <sbp> ╔══̈═╗
11:41:55 <sbp> ╚═══╝
11:43:00 <_bjoern> ╙╌╌╌╌╜
11:44:40 <_bjoern> rounded corners omg ╭╌╌╌╮
11:44:51 <sbp> ooh
11:44:54 <_bjoern> ╭╮
11:44:55 <_bjoern> ╰╯
11:45:02 <sbp> dids not work
11:45:11 <_bjoern> how so?
11:45:12 <sbp> there's a bonkin' great gap in the middle
11:45:20 <_bjoern> ur linespacing haz a bugz
11:45:25 <sbp> NO YES
11:49:31 *** tommorris (n=tom@82.144.237.32) has joined #swhack
11:50:14 *** JibberJim (n=none@81-86-174-182.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #swhack
11:51:12 *** tommorri (n=tom@82.144.237.32) has joined #swhack
11:52:38 *** tommorris has quit (Nick collision from services.)
11:52:44 <sbp> tom today, to tomorrow
11:52:56 *** tommorri is now known as tommorris
11:54:01 <_bjoern> .wik Totem
11:54:04 <phenny> "A totem is any entity which watches over or assists a group of people, such as a family, clan or tribe (Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary [1] and Webster's New World College Dictionary, Fourth Edition)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totem
11:54:27 <_bjoern> that needs wikification?
11:55:22 <_bjoern> .gc Zagaakwaandagowininiwag
11:55:25 <phenny> Zagaakwaandagowininiwag: 266
11:59:27 <_bjoern> Hmm, I don't quite understand this. I have an IP packet with an enclosed TCP packet.
11:59:53 <sbp> mutation?
11:59:59 <_bjoern> Sometimes packet length - ip header length - tcp header length is smaller than the length of the data.
12:00:35 <_bjoern> apparently at some point during the initialization of the connection
12:00:45 <_bjoern> where the data is nul bytes
12:01:08 <_bjoern> I am not sure I'm seeing bugs in other people's code, or miss something...
12:03:26 <_bjoern> (having tcp packets inside ip packets is perfectly normal)
12:12:05 <XcaliburZ> yo, sbp
12:12:09 <XcaliburZ> still there
12:12:16 <sbp> XcaliburZ: hai
12:12:44 <XcaliburZ> r u a sysadmin?
12:12:52 <sbp> LOL no
12:13:01 <sbp> thx for yr concern tho
12:13:14 <XcaliburZ> just guessing
12:13:58 <XcaliburZ> how to use swhacker?
12:14:01 <_bjoern> He's a seriously beastmastering padawan.
12:15:03 <XcaliburZ> wew
12:15:37 <XcaliburZ> it's kinda boring rite here
12:15:43 <sbp> bye
12:15:47 <_bjoern> WHAT U SAY !!
12:16:04 <XcaliburZ> wowowo... easy.. i meant here (my place)
12:16:09 <XcaliburZ> LOL
12:16:13 <sbp> ôlol sry
12:16:16 <Arnia> sbp: oh, about Russell; did you read the backlog?
12:16:33 <sbp> I thought u meaned "lol u guys sux i am going"
12:16:41 <sbp> Arnia: oh, nope. what was the gist?
12:16:48 <sbp> I had a quick skim
12:16:54 <_bjoern> Gist: We found the teapot.
12:16:54 <sbp> Russell Paradox in SPARQL?
12:16:58 <sbp> heh, heh
12:17:00 <sbp> where was it?
12:17:05 <sbp> in the glove compartment?
12:17:08 <Arnia> sbp: Russell paradox in RDF model theory
12:17:14 <sbp> in the model theory?!
12:17:35 <Arnia> _bjoern: but we only have jam tomorrow
12:17:38 * sbp looks
12:17:44 <Arnia> sbp: yeah, caused by the existence of named graphs
12:17:55 <_bjoern> Oh don't worry, I have Vodka.
12:18:41 <Arnia> brb... tea
12:18:54 <sbp> hmm
12:19:04 <sbp> named graphs aren't part of the model theory
12:19:16 <sbp> they're a SPARQL extension
12:19:31 <sbp> and I'm not sure they exist in SPARQL either. they're pretty loosely defined
12:19:36 <_bjoern> .g RDF model theory
12:19:39 <phenny> _bjoern: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/
12:19:51 <sbp> well they're defined as a tuple, (<uri>, <graph>)
12:20:06 <sbp> as a datastructure, in other words
12:20:16 <_bjoern> .title http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/
12:20:18 <phenny> _bjoern: RDF Semantics
12:20:20 <_bjoern> Opaque URIs Nazis
12:24:32 <sbp> heh, heh
12:24:40 <sbp> it used to be called Model Theory...
12:24:55 <sbp> then at the last moment they were like "lol but then people wnot understand it??"
12:25:04 <_bjoern> <咒> I HAZ A PRINTED COPY OF A MT WD OMG
12:25:05 <sbp> so they changed the title to make it easy to follow
12:25:17 <_bjoern> Mission Accomplised.
12:31:23 <_bjoern> .calc 18 in binary
12:31:25 <phenny> 18 = 0b10010
12:31:58 <sbp> u can hazd binary!
12:32:19 <_bjoern> num sayz iz a syn/ack packet
12:32:33 <sbp> ooh
12:35:50 <Arnia> sbp: Reification is equivalent to named graphs... essentially, any mechanism which allows one to refer to statements causes this
12:36:45 <_bjoern> .calc 48132 in hex
12:36:52 <phenny> 48 132 = 0xBC04
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12:41:16 <sbp> parse trees are such fun
12:41:18 <sbp> Query
12:41:18 <sbp> Prologue
12:41:18 <sbp>  PrefixDecl
12:41:18 <sbp>  /PrefixDecl
12:41:18 <sbp> /Prologue
12:41:19 <sbp> SelectQuery
12:41:21 <sbp>  WhereClause
12:41:23 <sbp>  GroupGraphPattern
12:41:25 <sbp>   TriplesBlock
12:41:28 <sbp>   TriplesSameSubject
12:41:31 <sbp>   /TriplesSameSubject
12:41:32 <sbp>   VarOrTerm
12:41:34 <sbp> etc.
12:41:47 <_bjoern> So apparently the nul bytes are padding in the ethernet frame, and for some reason my tool chain does not strip it off...
12:45:37 * Arnia parses sbp using a regular grammar
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12:55:18 <_bjoern> .calc 2048 - 0x05dc
12:55:19 <phenny> 2 048 - 0x05dc = 548
12:59:53 <_bjoern> Ah usual case of bug having been reported twice years ago, author does nothing, replacement module doesn't build ...
13:00:05 <_bjoern> oh well, at least the workaround is simple.
13:01:05 <sbp> what is the workaround?
13:01:10 <sbp> PESTILENCE?
13:01:23 <_bjoern> stripping the trailing bytes off myself
13:01:26 <sbp> you're already working on the famine...
13:01:32 <sbp> ah
13:01:44 <sbp> bytes = bytes.rstrip('\x00')
13:02:16 <_bjoern> no, based on the known length of the data
13:02:20 <Arnia> WAR
13:02:27 <_bjoern> otherwise the binary data would cry
13:02:33 * Arnia does a Chris Morris
13:03:26 <_bjoern> I often hear this in a loop when writing e-mails
13:03:28 <_bjoern> .g Prince of Egypt - The Plague lyrics
13:03:28 <phenny> _bjoern: http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/princeofegypt/theplagues.htm
13:03:45 <sbp> war? hmm, good gosh all of you. what is it good for? absolutely nothing. repeat this assertion!
13:04:21 <sbp> bytes = bytes[:known_length_of_the_data]
13:04:48 <_bjoern> [[[
13:04:50 <_bjoern> I send a pestilence and plague
13:04:50 <_bjoern> Into your house, into your bed
13:04:50 <_bjoern> Into your streams, into your streets
13:04:50 <_bjoern> Into your drink, into your bread
13:04:50 <_bjoern> Upon your cattle, on your sheep
13:04:51 <_bjoern> Upon your oxen in your field
13:04:53 <_bjoern> Into your dreams, into your sleep
13:04:55 <_bjoern> Until you break, until you yield
13:04:57 <_bjoern> I send the swarm, I send the horde
13:04:59 <_bjoern> ...
13:05:01 <_bjoern> I send the thunder from the sky
13:05:03 <_bjoern> I send the fire raining down
13:05:05 <_bjoern> ...
13:05:07 <_bjoern> I send a hail of burning ice
13:05:09 <_bjoern> On ev'ry field, on ev'ry town
13:05:11 <_bjoern> ...
13:05:13 <_bjoern> I send the locusts on a wind
13:05:15 <_bjoern> Such as the world has never seen
13:05:17 <_bjoern> On ev'ry leaf, on ev'ry stalk
13:05:19 <_bjoern> Until there's nothing left of green
13:05:21 <_bjoern> I send my scourge, I send my sword
13:05:23 <_bjoern> ]]]
13:05:24 <sbp> hmm, Radiohead should cover this
13:05:25 <_bjoern> WARNING BIG PASTE ABOVE.
13:05:59 <_bjoern> It even has pestilence as you suggested.
13:06:06 <sbp> yeah!
13:06:18 <_bjoern> <咒> AND OXEN
13:07:01 <xover> <insert rant about world's stupidity here>
13:07:19 <xover> I'd say a good fifteen minutes worth or so.
13:07:55 <sbp> SPARQL PRODUCTION:
13:07:56 <sbp> [51]   NumericExpression   ::=   AdditiveExpression
13:08:06 <sbp> MY IMPLEMENTATION THEREOF:
13:08:07 <sbp>  @production('NumericExpression')
13:08:07 <sbp>  def numericExpression(self):
13:08:08 <sbp>    # [51] AdditiveExpression
13:08:08 <sbp>    self.additiveExpression() # [52]
13:08:13 <sbp> WIN
13:08:28 <_bjoern> parser writing suckz.
13:08:31 <sbp> yes
13:09:06 <_bjoern> validation is much cooler since you don't care about the shit ur parsing.
13:09:18 <sbp> hehe
13:09:28 <sbp> what about a validating parser?
13:09:49 <_bjoern> by definition any parser is validating.
13:11:12 <Arnia> xover: it is interesting that everyone seems to think the world is stupid.
13:11:30 <_bjoern> Gotta wonder what the world thinks about everyone.
13:12:42 <_bjoern> "The United States has failed to obtain a General Assembly resolution focused on rape used by governments and armed groups to achieve political and military objectives." - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/17/world/17nations.html
13:14:08 <_bjoern> .gc "This administration does not rape"
13:14:10 <phenny> "This administration does not rape": 0
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13:18:07 <xover> Arnia: Let me rephrase; a particular individual has done something stupid in a specific case, and this has happened far too often when I trust others to do stuff.
13:18:31 <Arnia> Ah, precision :)
13:18:41 <xover> Now visualize 15 minutes worth of ranting about it. With loads of otherwise irrelevant details.
13:18:54 <_bjoern> Sounds like you are stupid...
13:19:02 <xover> Yes, I'm beginning to think so.
13:19:13 <_bjoern> Welcome to #Swhack!
13:20:06 * Arnia decorates sbp with parse declarations
13:20:50 <xover> But I have to say, it's bloody liberating to be the stupidest git in the room.
13:20:59 <xover> No pressure, no expectations.
13:21:15 <_bjoern> tell Bush about it!
13:21:34 <xover> Must be why he has that retarded grin on his face all the time.
13:22:17 <_bjoern> He's just happy Cheney didn't shoot in /his/ face.
13:22:36 * Arnia sniggers
13:22:39 <Arnia> ... shoot...
13:22:58 <sbp> hehe
13:23:05 <xover> The mental image of Cheney shooting his load in Bush's face will never fade. Thanks a bunch _bjoern.
13:24:09 <xover> Speaking of... Why in the hell do pornos always have the shot of the guy cumming all over the chick's face?
13:24:24 <xover> Do guys in general really find that exciting?
13:24:38 <xover> Or girls for that matter.
13:25:01 <xover> The bukake fans aside, who actually wants to see that?
13:25:05 <sbp> yeah, that annoys me
13:25:10 <sbp> in fact, men in porn in general
13:25:24 <sbp> BAD PORNMONGERS
13:25:27 <xover> Yes, good point.
13:25:29 * _bjoern nods
13:25:37 <xover> Lesbian porn is the ticket.
13:25:58 * Arnia grumbles
13:26:06 <xover> Except, chicks with strapons scare the living daylights out of me.
13:26:17 <xover> They might get… ideas.
13:26:31 <Arnia> xover: you'd enjoy it
13:26:32 <sbp> hmm, there should be a comedy strapon sketch show
13:26:32 <_bjoern> chicks? how likely is that?
13:27:13 <_bjoern> <咒> XOVER: WHY U HAVE LIVING DAYLIGHTS INSIDE YOU?
13:27:45 <xover> Arnia: Possibly, in theory, on a purely physical level; but the trauma to my fragile homophobic psyche would be irreversible.
13:28:00 <xover> Hmm.
13:28:02 <Arnia> xover: who cares? ;)
13:28:09 * Arnia hands xover the soap
13:28:10 <_bjoern> Monty cares.
13:28:11 <Monty> ehm.
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13:28:21 <_bjoern> Okay...
13:28:24 * xover suddenly finds the term “Homophobic” imprecise.
13:28:26 <_bjoern> lolpipz cares.
13:28:41 <sbp> no really, there should be a comedy strapon sketch show
13:28:46 <lolpipz> _bjoern: WUT YU SAID WAZ EITHR T COMPLEX OR T SIMPLE FR ME.
13:29:03 <_bjoern> well make one!
13:29:19 <sbp> that would require effort!
13:29:30 <Arnia> sbp: CHARGE!
13:29:34 <xover> Or just a whole bunch of vaseline and a webcam.
13:29:37 <sbp> if a job's worth being done, it's worth getting Monty to do it for you
13:29:39 <Monty> Ring the cold caller
13:29:40 <sbp> CHEARG!
13:29:53 * Arnia does a carvery run in a moment of dyslexic joy
13:30:00 <_bjoern> Monty is all outsourcing again.
13:30:01 <Monty> Earlier you said your bitch baby .
13:30:02 <sbp> hehe
13:30:02 <Arnia> Got roast beef?
13:30:16 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<Monty> Earlier you said your bitch baby ."
13:30:49 * xover goes for more espresso…
13:30:51 * Arnia is always upstaged by Monty
13:30:51 <Monty> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec8.html#sec8.1.2.2
13:31:21 <_bjoern> Don't drag HTTP into this porn discussion Monty.
13:31:21 <Monty> open
13:31:32 <_bjoern> Monty: NO 咒
13:31:35 <Monty> After all, LuRcH's trusted warts respects crass mild the_other_cj!
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13:33:18 <xover> .w phobic
13:33:20 <phenny> phobic a. 1: Suffering from irrational fears.
13:33:24 <_bjoern> .gc "artificial fellatio"
13:33:26 <phenny> "artificial fellatio": 875
13:33:31 <xover> .ety phobic
13:33:34 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "phobic". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=phobic
13:33:43 <_bjoern> .ety phobia
13:33:45 <phenny> "1786, 'fear, horror, aversion,' Mod.L., abstracted from compounds in -phobia, from Gk. -phobia, from phobos 'fear,' originally 'flight' (still the only sense in Homer), but it became the common word for 'fear' via the notion of 'panic, fright' (cf. phobein 'put to [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=phobia
13:34:45 <sbp> whoo, it are teh parse
13:34:53 * sbp just added very basic FILTER capabilities
13:35:00 <xover> We need a word to be to —phobic as Neutrino is to Neutron.
13:35:11 <_bjoern> phibic.
13:35:24 <sbp> -phobico
13:35:43 <_bjoern> phibiccino
13:35:44 <sbp> -phobiclet?
13:36:21 <_bjoern> That would be an oddly named + darkness protection bracelet.
13:36:36 <_bjoern> or one that automatically applies that status maybe
13:36:56 <sbp> no? you?
13:37:01 <Arnia> @_bjoern--
13:37:06 <Arnia> BAD
13:37:09 <_bjoern> or perhaps it greatly increases your +evade status at the expense of some other status.
13:37:18 <_bjoern> HA NO SUPYBOT
13:37:18 <Arnia> No RPGs here... at least not now
13:37:29 <_bjoern> you shouldn't be here anyway
13:37:32 <Arnia> There is a badger lurking behind you and we don't want to give away our strategy
13:37:33 <_bjoern> GO WORK
13:37:48 <_bjoern> BADGERS FREE ZONE
13:37:59 <Arnia> _bjoern: I AM WORKING
13:38:06 <Arnia> Reading up on Generating Functions
13:38:08 <_bjoern> .gc hydro-phibic
13:38:10 <phenny> hydro-phibic: 1,060
13:38:44 <_bjoern> NEW WORD: phibism
13:39:14 * _bjoern rejoices <3 vodka
13:39:47 <Arnia> TEH VODKA IS WATER
13:39:56 <Arnia> WE REPLACED IT LAST NIGHT. STOP.
13:40:32 <_bjoern> +40% Water. Good stuff.
13:40:47 <_bjoern> .gc phibiclet
13:40:50 <phenny> phibiclet: 0
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13:55:56 <Arnia> .wik Stuart Miles
13:55:59 <phenny> "Stuart Miles (born 20 February 1970) is a British comedian and television presenter, best known for presenting the popular children's programme Blue Peter." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Miles
13:55:59 *** darobin (n=robinb@m218.net81-66-102.noos.fr) has joined #swhack
13:56:03 <Arnia> Read to the bottom
13:56:08 <_bjoern> darobin!
13:56:15 <_bjoern> He can answer xover's question!
13:57:53 <_bjoern> "For the love of all that is good and proper, please never ever use XML Schema if there is any way you can help it." - Aristotle Pagaltzis
13:58:37 <sbp> heh, Filter means three different things in the SPARQL spec
13:58:44 <Arnia> ?!
13:58:49 * Arnia nukes SPARQL
13:58:59 <Arnia> NO POLYSEMY. BAD SPEC!
13:59:03 <sbp> first they define it as a bit of surface syntax for a transformation
13:59:15 <sbp> secondly they define it as a part of the abstract syntax
13:59:37 <sbp> and then they define it as an operation for evaluating the abstract syntax element of the same name
13:59:56 <Arnia> mm... overloading
14:00:13 <Arnia> AH BEANZ MEANZ HEINZ
14:00:23 * Arnia covers _bjoern with baked beans
14:00:26 <Arnia> Variety 58
14:00:35 <sbp> wow, the twist at the end of Stuart Miles was unexpected
14:00:39 <sbp> I remember him, vaguely
14:00:43 <sbp> I remember Katy Hill better
14:01:29 <Arnia> sbp: a couple of friends were discussing Blue Peter on facebook this morning and one of them mentioned that Stuart Miles was performing
14:07:52 <sbp> heh
14:08:00 <sbp> he sure is
14:09:02 <darobin> _bjoern!
14:09:44 <_bjoern> ㋡
14:11:02 <sbp> I like how some of the expected/reference SPARQL test results are in Turtle, and some are in the XML Results Format
14:11:09 <sbp> just for ease of use, you know?
14:11:21 <sbp> (AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH)
14:12:37 <_bjoern> It's my fault. I told them to do it so you go all "AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH" and save yourself from the semweb-verse.
14:13:08 *** cre8radix has quit ("your mama!")
14:13:24 <sbp> ¶
14:13:29 <sbp> ...!
14:13:34 <sbp> 咒
14:13:39 <_bjoern> _
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14:13:47 <sbp> keyboard mode switched again
14:13:56 <sbp> must've reverted to Welsh when I restarted X-Chat Aqua
14:14:12 <cr`x_> you have a mode just for goofy unicode chars?
14:14:17 <sbp> yes
14:14:24 <cr`x_> good man!
14:14:26 <sbp> it's called "Swhack!"
14:14:58 <cr`x_> My mode is actually slightly customized, myself
14:15:00 <cr`x_> ᵹ
14:15:15 <sbp> .pc ᵹ
14:15:17 <phenny> 1D79: LATIN SMALL LETTER INSULAR G (ᵹ)
14:15:18 <sbp> what's that bound to?
14:15:23 <sbp> and moreover, why?
14:16:03 <cr`x_> option-g. As for the why… well, the short story is I like it. The slightly longer story is that it's part of a handwriting system I have devised for myself.
14:16:24 <sbp> let's see now... possible people who are you...
14:16:28 <sbp> did you write NmapFE?
14:16:30 <cr`x_> As is ȝ
14:16:54 <sbp> handwriting system as in a shorthand?
14:17:21 <sbp> yogh is Alt+: y for me
14:17:29 <cr`x_> i didn't write NmapFE, no. And it's a sort of shorthand; though in its principles it bears much more kinship with the scribal abbreviation system than with any actual shorthand
14:17:29 <sbp> which is a bit baroque, but at least I can type it
14:17:36 <sbp> that was inherited from the Welsh layout, in fact
14:17:48 <sbp> ah, so not a phonetic shorthand
14:17:52 <cr`x_> Right.
14:18:02 <cr`x_> It's strictly conservative of actual spelling.
14:18:10 <cr`x_> Non-lossy, if you will
14:18:14 <sbp> heh
14:18:30 <cr`x_> Except sometimes I fudge my there/their/theyre
14:18:43 <sbp> did you introduce C# 2.0 nullable types in some article?
14:18:57 <_bjoern> "Court Bars Secret Papers in Eavesdropping Case" - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/17/washington/17nsa.html?ref=us
14:18:59 <sbp> theeaaahh
14:19:26 <sbp> alright, what should I call srx as in input format name?
14:19:30 <_bjoern> good title:
14:19:32 <_bjoern> .title http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/16/ww.humancloning/
14:19:35 <phenny> _bjoern: You, again: Are we getting closer to cloning humans? - CNN.com
14:19:40 <sbp> other names include ... hehe
14:19:46 <sbp> include rdfxml, turtle, n3...
14:19:57 <sbp> but srx is too abbv
14:20:09 <_bjoern> nu !
14:20:16 <cr`x_> sbp, I definitely didn't introduce
14:20:23 <cr`x_> C# types in any article.
14:20:29 <sbp> and the official name, "SPARQL Query Results XML Format", is too un-abbreviationalised
14:20:34 <cr`x_> http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2004198811092154447
14:20:39 <sbp> cr`x_: 'k. what did you do?
14:20:45 <sbp> asl? pix plz?
14:20:58 <cr`x_> Not a lot, actually. http://apodion.net is me
14:21:08 <sbp> hmm, nice. except that you use lined paper which is an abomination
14:21:21 <sbp> but perhaps it was under duress
14:21:36 <cr`x_> I disagree most urgently!
14:22:15 <sbp> wow
14:22:23 <sbp> you used "Divers" in a post title
14:22:27 <sbp> in the sense of diverse
14:22:35 <sbp> that almost makes up for lined paper
14:22:52 <sbp> not quite though. lined paper is really pretty bad 咒
14:23:00 <cr`x_> As opposed to what?
14:23:04 <cr`x_> squared?
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14:23:45 <sbp> plain!
14:24:03 <sbp> pure, sweet, melodiously plain paper, the way nature intended it
14:24:05 <cr`x_> that's insane.
14:24:15 <sbp> well, I suppose nature intended it ringed, but whatever
14:24:31 <sbp> you know they print the lines on right?
14:24:32 <cr`x_> call me stodgy, but I like my writing to proceed in roughly straight lines, you know.
14:24:50 <cr`x_> I know they do. As far as I can tell, chalk another one up to human ingenuity.
14:24:58 <sbp> call me pretentious, but I'm glad to have that capability without the assistance of printed guides
14:25:29 <sbp> just like in the good old days
14:25:39 <sbp> Shakespeare didn't write on lined paper, but he got on quite well!
14:26:00 <cr`x_> You're a better man than I, then. The whole reason I started on my weird writing system project is that my handwriting was not quite there. Certainly not capable of proceeding straightly without lines. I suppose these days I'd be better. But yours is still a position I haven't met yet
14:26:12 <cr`x_> Why did you think I was those two guys, up there?
14:26:16 <sbp> of course the best solution is to type instead...
14:26:28 <sbp> which two guys? hmm?
14:27:01 <cr`x_> The NmapFE or the C# guys.
14:27:12 <sbp> oh, I just googled for your name
14:27:28 <sbp> hence "<sbp> let's see now... possible people who are you..."
14:27:44 <cr`x_> oh yeah, it's in there, isn't it?
14:28:24 <cr`x_> basically none of those hits are me, and pretty much all of Z. D. Smith are
14:28:26 <sbp> hmm. your system isn't cursive
14:28:28 <sbp> aha
14:29:03 <sbp> in teh England we say "zed-dee"
14:29:08 <sbp> which is quite funny, when you think about it
14:30:02 <cr`x_> I appreciate Zed. I take some pride in having overcome my obligatory teenage anglophilia, but if you recite serial numbers over the phone for a living, it's nice to have
14:30:31 <MoiraA> lo
14:30:40 <sbp> "sparql-results+xml" - seems like sparql-results is the order of the day
14:30:55 <sbp> yo MoiraA
14:31:55 <sbp> wow, the example transforms for srx are... kinda crap
14:32:32 <sbp> they should've put 'em through the Microformats process
14:32:38 <sbp> that would've straightened 'em up
14:35:03 <sbp> heh, and then I go and call the parser module "srx.py"
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14:42:22 <sbp> omg hi JaRoLLz
14:42:28 <sbp> asl?
14:42:29 <JaRoLLz> hi too
14:42:43 <JaRoLLz> 19 m Stygia
14:42:57 <sbp> 'k thx. hai ! welcome to Swhack
14:43:23 <JaRoLLz> what is the main food in this channel?
14:43:27 <sbp> "The inhabitants of fictional Stygia are not to be confused with the historical Egyptians."
14:43:33 <sbp> food == love
14:44:29 <JaRoLLz> if (food == love) { return explain(eat); }
14:44:43 <sbp> omg u used braces lol
14:45:02 <JaRoLLz> omg i love C, so?
14:45:13 <darobin> ah, one of those
14:45:20 <darobin> they are teh funny
14:45:25 <sbp> >>> print eat.__doc__
14:45:25 <sbp> Eating love is like when a man and a woman love food very much...
14:45:25 <sbp> >>>
14:45:46 <darobin> Monty: wanna eat some love of mine baby?
14:45:47 <Monty> bancus: "geiles" (de)
14:45:58 <darobin> Monty: you prefer bancus :(
14:45:59 <Monty> Sup didn't shoot at all.
14:46:09 <sbp> Monty does not waterboard
14:46:10 <darobin> Monty: I didn't need to know...
14:46:12 <Monty> pirch was ok. But anyway; I'm kinda boring ;-)
14:46:14 <Monty> can't you lot better job than Apache closes the person in UTF-8?
14:46:43 <darobin> phenny: "geiles"?
14:46:56 <sbp> JaRoLLz: so how's Stygia working out for you?
14:46:56 <phenny> darobin: "geiles" (de)
14:47:19 <darobin> .mangle eariler you said your bitch baby
14:47:29 <phenny> darobin: "That the baby of their Mrs. Sie who little with more with more eariler explain"
14:47:30 <JaRoLLz> sbp: Stygia?
14:47:40 <JaRoLLz> sbp: why do you wanna know?
14:47:45 <JaRoLLz> sbp: it's in the lower planes
14:47:46 <sbp> JaRoLLz: the place where you purportedly live. at least remember your own LIEZ
14:47:55 <sbp> I want to know because food == love
14:48:01 <JaRoLLz> sbp: well it's hot as ever
14:48:08 <sbp> so in other words, sbp.wantsToKnowAbout(stygia) unless food != love
14:48:08 <darobin> and what about music in there?
14:49:18 <JaRoLLz> sbp: well :: if (defined(SBP) && dontKnow(stygia,sbp)) then return "hot";
14:49:42 <cr`x_> Geil means 'cool' (as in radical), I think.
14:49:49 <cr`x_> slang-wise.
14:50:23 * sbp sobs at his crazy XML parser in rdfxml.py, thinks about using minidom instead...
14:50:54 <sbp> I WILL DO IT
14:52:22 <sbp> note to any poor bastard implementing a SPARQL processor in the future: it is not trivial
14:53:46 <sbp> tsk, typo in http://docs.python.org/lib/module-xml.dom.minidom.html
14:54:03 <sbp> parse(filename_or_file, parser) should be parse(filename_or_file[, parser])
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14:58:54 *** JaRoLLz has quit ("Bargum nizka koros!")
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15:07:43 <cr`x_> duly noted
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15:18:51 <nsh> Monty, what's the manifesto?
15:18:52 <Monty> Please go on.
15:19:44 <nsh> Monty, it'll do.
15:19:47 <Monty> Hm. My thunderbird client sends one, isn't writing suckz.
15:20:36 <sbp> nsh!
15:20:48 <nsh> sbp!
15:21:00 <sbp> I arr programming
15:21:04 <sbp> what up?
15:21:09 <nsh> what's the swerve?
15:21:13 <nsh> eh
15:21:18 <nsh> .ety swerve
15:21:20 <phenny> "c.1225, 'to depart, make off;' c.1330, 'to turn aside, deviate from a straight course,' probably from O.E. sweorfan 'to rub, scour, file' (but sense development is difficult to trace), from P.Gmc. *swerbanan (cf O.N. sverfa 'to scour, file,' O.S. swebran 'to wipe [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=swerve
15:21:26 * nsh tired and fuzzy
15:21:39 <sbp> The Swerve is a fresh new dance from the Brazillian Outback where you take your partner by the grappling hook and rock them softly over a pirhana infested puddle
15:21:54 * nsh looks for a class near him
15:22:08 <nsh> what vanilla of programming are you?
15:22:40 <sbp> instead of piranha puddles, most UK schools of the dance just fill a bucket with some nik-naks
15:22:48 <sbp> the plainiest
15:23:08 <nsh> icicle city
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15:24:20 <nsh> there needs to be an internet imagination machine
15:24:27 <sbp> what would it do?
15:24:31 <nsh> that you can seed with random phrasiology
15:24:36 <nsh> and it generates stuff
15:24:42 <nsh> that's... fantastical!
15:24:49 <sbp> oh, heh. I read that as "internet immigration machine"
15:25:07 * nsh chuckles
15:25:18 <nsh> we should all emmigrate to the internet
15:25:25 <sbp> we all have...
15:25:43 <nsh> true(somewhat)
15:25:44 <sbp> effectively
15:25:55 <nsh> but we could do to be more effective about it
15:26:17 <nsh> did you ever watch the anime series Serial Experiments Lain?
15:26:18 <sbp> you could. I'm in here pretty much 24/7. well, 18/7
15:26:25 <sbp> nope?
15:26:44 <nsh> ah, it was quite early nineties but presaged a lot about the effects of the internet
15:26:50 <nsh> or "the wired" as it was called
15:26:54 <sbp> sweet
15:27:05 <sbp> animè getting futar prediction right
15:27:23 <nsh> yeah, i think they have futar in cage and extract from it with pipe
15:28:10 <nsh> i have this impression that the entire secret manifesto of post-industrial japan is to create mecha-warriors and everything else is just a diversion
15:28:23 <nsh> at least, i'd like to think so
15:28:43 <sbp> hehe
15:28:55 <cr`x_> japan is the three-eyed fish of america's pop culture
15:29:09 <nsh> This.
15:29:12 <sbp> and increasingly vice versa
15:29:51 <nsh> .ety bizarre
15:29:54 <phenny> "c.1648, from Fr. bizarre 'odd, fantastic,' originally 'handsome, brave,' from Basque bizar 'a beard' (th notion being of the strange impression made in France by bearded Sp. soldiers); alternative etymology traces it to It. bizarro 'angry, fierce, irascible,' from [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=bizarre
15:30:28 <nsh> (... from Bizza "fit of anger")
15:30:49 <sbp> sweorfan
15:30:50 * nsh makes note to have a bizza at next viable opportunity
15:30:57 <sbp> O.E./P.Gmc. rules
15:31:07 <nsh> yeah
15:31:42 <nsh> there should be linguistic overlays on consciousness, so you could just throw archaic languages over reality
15:32:13 <nsh> and everything people say will be construed in those terms by some technomagic
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15:33:13 <nsh> ............
15:33:32 * nsh half-watching some documentary on Anarchism in America over some psytrance to test new speakers
15:33:41 <nsh> and it was all making vague but ignorable sense
15:34:00 <nsh> now all of a sudden some guy called israel is smashing squashes (the vegitable) with a hammer
15:34:58 <nsh> and pumpkins
15:35:51 <nsh> and talking about nature's helmet for the tomato
15:37:36 <cr`x_> nsh, i agree
15:37:58 <cr`x_> but as long as we're not there yet, we have little choice but to overlay them ourselves.
15:38:22 <cr`x_> As I see it, there's no one who couldn't benefit from a strata of old english in their linguistic perspective
15:39:04 <nsh> i find your verbals truesome
15:39:20 <cr`x_> i'm on yiddish right now
15:39:27 <cr`x_> but i'm getting me some old english books
15:39:46 <cr`x_> before long i intend to be thinking of things in terms of sc and cg
15:39:58 <cr`x_> and written in hebrew characters.
15:40:27 <nsh> sc, cg?
15:42:13 <cr`x_> it's how you write ʃ and dȝ in OE
15:42:29 <cr`x_> fisc, ecg
15:42:43 <cr`x_> = fish, edge
15:43:26 <sbp> <nsh> and talking about nature's helmet for the tomato
15:43:27 <sbp> ...hehe
15:44:34 <nsh> ah, i sees
15:47:15 * cr`x_ is rather surprised he doesn't have ʃ anywhere in his keylayout
15:48:56 * therethinker is rather surprised that cr`x_ is rather surprised he doesn't have ʃ anywhere in his keylayout
15:49:09 <sbp> don't pretend to be metasurprised
15:49:19 * therethinker doesn't even have é on his keyboard
15:49:53 <therethinker> I'm really metasurprised though, who is surprised they don't have the intergal sign on their keyboard >_>
15:50:33 <sbp> wow, the filter test works first time, even though I just had to write the srx parser and all
15:50:34 <sbp> awesome!
15:50:39 <cr`x_> well i don't talk a lot about integrals, but i do talk a fair amount about linguistics
15:51:05 <therethinker> .gc metasurprised
15:51:08 <phenny> metasurprised: 0
15:51:08 <cr`x_> right now that key goes s, S, ß, ſ
15:51:27 <cr`x_> but i like my medial s too
15:51:28 <sbp> s, S, ß, ·
15:51:33 <sbp> and ſ
15:51:37 <sbp> on the old Alt+:
15:51:52 <sbp> I totally have a MID DOT that you don't
15:51:54 <sbp> pwnd
15:52:02 <cr`x_> what do you use it for?
15:52:09 <therethinker> Hmm? How can *I* get all these odd characters on my keylayout...?
15:52:10 <sbp> oh, all kinds of things
15:52:15 <sbp> .swhack sbp.*·
15:52:20 <phenny> sbp: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-10-31#T09-15-43
15:52:27 <sbp> therethinker: since you're not using OS X, no idea
15:52:35 <sbp> cr`x_: there you go. all kinds of things
15:52:39 <therethinker> Damn... oh well :P
15:52:39 <cr`x_> so i see.
15:52:45 <cr`x_> how SPQR of you, sbp.
15:53:10 <cr`x_> how have you set up alt+:? I don't have any of those as far as i know
15:53:17 <sbp> they'd put a dot afterwards too
15:53:28 <sbp> it just came free with the builtin Welsh layout
15:53:40 <sbp> and Swhack! is a copy of the Welsh layout, with my changes
15:53:56 <cr`x_> what do you use to change it, ukulele?
15:53:59 <sbp> yeah
15:54:23 <cr`x_> wow, welsh gives you good ones
15:54:28 <sbp> yep
15:54:35 <sbp> and it's handy for, like, typing Welsh
15:54:41 <sbp> is beink winnah!
15:54:43 <cr`x_> i've got thorns and edhs on mine, but i don't remember where.
15:57:20 <cr`x_> found the ðÐ
15:57:22 <sbp> someone asked me to put Trio in an rcs-a-like
15:57:33 <sbp> so now I've gotta do The Great RCS-a-Like Survey
15:57:57 <sbp> this should be, uh... fun
15:58:01 <sbp> so, -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_revision_control_software
15:58:06 <sbp> order the table by method...
15:58:13 <sbp> select distributed and free...
15:58:36 <sbp> Codeville, darcs, Git, GNU arch, Mercurial, Monotone, SVK, and Bazaar
15:58:47 <cr`x_> oh, þ. there it is
15:58:51 <sbp> heh
15:59:03 <sbp> how hard is it to find that?
15:59:11 <sbp> Show Keyboard Viewer
15:59:16 <cr`x_> dunno. didn't see it the first time.
15:59:16 <sbp> unless it's well hidden in a combo
15:59:18 <sbp> heh
15:59:27 <cr`x_> no, it's right over L. I was looking at T, I guess
15:59:32 <sbp> also, ones I've heard of: darcs, Git, Mercurial, Bazaar
15:59:48 <sbp> Monotone is purple, so apparently it's not very memorable
16:00:06 <sbp> I've also heard of GNU arch, but as I recall it's kinda ancient and shit even if they do use it on the linux kernel
16:00:26 <sbp> so...
16:00:42 <sbp> the first order of the day is: does it make a pretty directory structure
16:00:52 <sbp> oh, and how easy is it to use of course
16:00:59 *** rob1n|afk is now known as rob1n
16:01:01 <sbp> first up! darcs
16:01:28 <sbp> apparently I already have this...
16:01:29 <sbp> $ darcs --version
16:01:29 <sbp> 1.0.9 ()
16:01:46 <sbp> $ sudo port upgrade darcs
16:02:09 <sbp> a few readline patches...
16:02:35 <sbp> "Latest Stable Source (1.0.9)." - http://darcs.net/
16:02:42 <sbp> in which case, excellent. so, how do we use it...
16:03:18 <sbp> -> http://wiki.darcs.net/DarcsWiki/GettingStarted
16:04:19 <sbp> looks easy-simple enough...
16:06:52 <sbp> in darcs-test
16:06:52 <sbp> $ echo p > example.txt; mkdir something; touch something/filename
16:07:12 <sbp> done a darcs init, and...
16:07:12 <sbp> $ find .
16:07:12 <sbp> .
16:07:13 <sbp> ./_darcs
16:07:13 <sbp> ./_darcs/inventories
16:07:14 <sbp> ./_darcs/inventory
16:07:16 <sbp> ./_darcs/patches
16:07:18 <sbp> ./_darcs/prefs
16:07:20 <sbp> ./_darcs/prefs/binaries
16:07:22 <sbp> ./_darcs/prefs/boring
16:07:24 <sbp> ./_darcs/prefs/motd
16:07:26 <sbp> ./_darcs/pristine
16:07:28 <sbp> ./example.txt
16:07:30 <sbp> ./something
16:07:32 <sbp> ./something/filename
16:07:34 <sbp> not too much of a mess so far, I suppose
16:07:52 <cr`x_> my screen is flickering.
16:08:11 <sbp> $ echo q >> example.txt
16:08:16 <sbp> $ darcs add -r *
16:08:17 <sbp> Skipping boring file _darcs
16:08:17 <sbp> Skipping boring file _darcs/inventories
16:08:17 <sbp> etc.
16:08:46 <sbp> $ darcs record -am "Initial import."
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16:08:51 <sbp> hmm, then it wants an email address
16:08:53 <sbp> which is annoying
16:09:10 <sbp> stored verbatim in _darcs/prefs/author
16:10:35 <sbp> hmm, it's not too much worse now
16:10:40 <sbp> stuff like:
16:10:40 <sbp> ./_darcs/patches
16:10:40 <sbp> ./_darcs/patches/20071117164637-4b5a4-5ea3514aceae24da125d7b664aca79a06151e794.gz
16:10:40 <sbp> ./_darcs/patches/pending
16:10:53 <sbp> the whole tree is copied to ./_darcs/pristine
16:11:42 <sbp> alright, skipping git for a while. trivial test of hg...
16:12:02 <sbp> $ hg --version
16:12:02 <sbp> *** failed to import extension hgk: [Errno 2] No such file or directory
16:12:02 <sbp> Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 0.9.4)
16:12:18 <sbp> not sure what the hgk error is all about
16:12:29 <sbp> .gc "failed to import extension hgk"
16:12:32 <phenny> "failed to import extension hgk": 0
16:13:14 <sbp> oh:
16:13:14 <sbp> # [extensions]
16:13:14 <sbp> # hgk=/opt/local/share/mercurial/contrib/hgk.py
16:13:15 <sbp> [hgk]
16:13:15 <sbp> path=/opt/local/share/mercurial/contrib/hgk
16:13:20 <sbp> - ~/.hgrc
16:13:32 <sbp> okay, fixed that
16:13:58 <sbp> now, an hg walkthrough...
16:14:36 <sbp> -> http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/QuickStart
16:15:08 <sbp> in hg-test
16:15:08 <sbp> $ echo p > example.txt; mkdir something; touch something/filename
16:15:16 <sbp> $ hg init
16:15:27 <sbp> $ find .
16:15:27 <sbp> .
16:15:27 <sbp> ./.hg
16:15:27 <sbp> ./.hg/00changelog.i
16:15:27 <sbp> ./.hg/requires
16:15:28 <sbp> ./.hg/store
16:15:30 <sbp> ./example.txt
16:15:32 <sbp> ./something
16:15:34 <sbp> ./something/filename
16:15:37 <sbp> less crap, though it also uses a .dir
16:15:41 <sbp> which is a bit of a bugger really
16:15:47 <sbp> perhaps configurable
16:16:21 <sbp> $ hg add
16:16:21 <sbp> adding example.txt
16:16:21 <sbp> adding something/filename
16:16:48 <sbp> pfft:
16:16:48 <sbp> $ hg commit
16:16:48 <sbp> No username found
16:17:31 <sbp> rightio, now it's messier
16:17:32 <sbp> ./.hg/store
16:17:32 <sbp> ./.hg/store/00changelog.i
16:17:32 <sbp> ./.hg/store/00manifest.i
16:17:32 <sbp> ./.hg/store/data
16:17:32 <sbp> ./.hg/store/data/example.txt.i
16:17:34 <sbp> ./.hg/store/data/something
16:17:36 <sbp> ./.hg/store/data/something/filename.i
16:17:38 <sbp> etc.
16:17:49 <sbp> again, passable though. both darcs and hg pass the trivial test
16:17:53 <sbp> now, extended use...
16:19:00 <sbp> heh:
16:19:00 <sbp> diff -r 000000000000 -r 9b5b156fc63a example.txt
16:19:01 <sbp> --- /dev/null  Thu Jan 01 00:00:00 1970 +0000
16:19:01 <sbp> +++ b/example.txt    Sat Nov 17 16:54:45 2007 +0000
16:19:01 <sbp> @@ -0,0 +1,1 @@
16:19:01 <sbp> +p
16:24:59 <sbp> heh, I bet you could use both darcs and hg on something
16:25:01 <sbp> that'd be funny
16:27:45 <sbp> http://www.ligarto.org/rdiaz/VersionControl.html goes for bazaar
16:27:51 <sbp> but generally praises hg over darcs
16:28:01 <sbp> and of course given that it's python rather than haskell...
16:29:55 <sbp> "bzr seemed to still have some strange behaviors that it's had for awhile, and I couldn't find even one advantage of it over Mercurial. So off I went with Mercurial." - http://changelog.complete.org/posts/588-Re-Examining-Darcs-Mercurial.html
16:31:21 <sbp> 'I'm going to keep my personal code in Darcs for the moment because "darcs send" is still easier than "hg email", but that may change before long, depending on how my experience goes.' - ibid.
16:33:26 <sbp> hehe:
16:33:26 <sbp> [[[
16:33:27 <sbp> In addition to trying darcs, you should try mercurial.
16:33:27 <sbp> Posted by ryan king at
16:33:27 <sbp> 19:20:50
16:33:32 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2006/04/19/bzr
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16:37:10 * sbp examines http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html
16:37:14 <sbp> not much between 'em again
16:38:24 *** MorbusIff (n=morbus@c-24-34-64-110.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
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16:39:25 <sbp> darcs's push/merge does get praised a lot though
16:40:38 <sbp> then again, http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.darcs.user/11201
16:41:02 <sbp> $ cat ~/.hgrc
16:41:02 <sbp> [ui]
16:41:02 <sbp> username=Sean B. Palmer <http://inamidst.com/sbp/>
16:41:04 <sbp> - nifty, btw
16:41:51 <sbp> hmm. I wonder if there's a command to show files that would be added on hg add
16:42:34 <sbp> ah, hg status | egrep '^\?'
16:43:57 *** cre8radix has quit ("your mama!")
16:44:56 <sbp> oh, or add -n
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16:46:39 <sbp> hmm
16:46:50 <sbp> you can't clone a subset of a repo, it seems
16:50:09 *** pierpa (n=user@host28-249-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
16:50:50 <sbp> hmm, that's kinda a piss
16:51:23 *** cr`x_ has quit ("Achtung! Computer schließt.")
16:55:36 <sbp> ooh
16:55:37 <sbp> $ hg archive -t tbz2 hg-test.tar.bz2
16:55:42 <sbp> $ tar -jxvf hg-test.tar.bz2
16:55:42 <sbp> hg-test/.hg_archival.txt
16:55:42 <sbp> hg-test/example.txt
16:55:42 <sbp> hg-test/new
16:55:43 <sbp> hg-test/something/filename
16:55:48 <sbp> $ cat hg-test/.hg_archival.txt
16:55:48 <sbp> repo: 9b5b156fc63af9ced464e6bcee72958719e29f3b
16:55:49 <sbp> node: 119b9618836280439fabdfc6592f3210b2185f20
16:55:54 *** cr`x has quit ()
17:00:00 <sbp> $ hg cat -r 9b5b156fc63a example.txt
17:00:00 <sbp> p
17:00:03 <sbp> $ hg cat -r 0 example.txt
17:00:04 <sbp> p
17:00:06 <sbp> is beink 0-based
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17:13:16 <xover> I so don't get spammers.
17:13:27 <xover> “Never scrub your toilet again!”
17:13:31 <xover> The fuck?
17:13:36 <sbp> heh, indeed
17:13:55 <sbp> why would someone want to deprive themselves of the joy of scrubbing a toilet?
17:14:29 <xover> What could they possibly be selling that will affect the necessity of scrubbing the toilet?
17:14:57 <sbp> a hammer
17:15:11 <xover> Mailorder brides?
17:15:16 <sbp> ehheh
17:17:35 <nsh> .ety pernicious
17:17:37 <phenny> "1521, from M.Fr. pernicios (13c., Fr. pernicieux), from L. perniciosus 'destructive,' from pernicies 'destruction, death, ruin,' from per- 'completely' + necis 'violent death, murder,' related to necare 'to kill,' nocere 'to hurt, injure, harm,' noxa 'harm, injury' [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=pernicious
17:17:51 <nsh> pft
17:17:53 <nsh> .ety per-
17:17:55 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "per-". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=per-
17:18:27 <nsh> THATS BECOZ U LIE
17:18:44 <sbp> sry
17:19:09 <nsh> is ok, only pretnd 2 b angrey
17:19:14 <sbp> thx
17:23:09 *** chimezie has quit ("Leaving")
17:25:23 <sbp> okay, so I delete a file from a repo
17:25:32 <sbp> how do I find out what the last revision it was in is?
17:25:53 <sbp> $ hg log --limit 1 example.txt
17:25:53 <sbp> changeset:  1:69335d343b25
17:25:53 <sbp> user:    "Sean B. Palmer <http://inamidst.com/sbp/>"
17:25:53 <sbp> date:    Sat Nov 17 17:00:28 2007 +0000
17:25:53 <sbp> summary:   Testing a simple change.
17:25:55 <sbp> that *doesn't* work
17:26:01 <sbp> because that's the last time the file was changed
17:26:06 <sbp> not the last revision it was included in
17:30:03 <sbp> hmm, this is impossible as far as I can tell
17:33:01 <sbp> $ hg log --limit 1 example.txt | head -n 1 | awk -F': *' '{print $2}'
17:33:01 <sbp> 1
17:33:05 <sbp> that gives you the -r of it
17:36:05 *** cr`x_ (n=zax@user-12lcqh4.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #swhack
17:39:31 <sbp> .calc 0x28e09fab2523 in decimal
17:39:34 <phenny> 0x28e09fab2523 = 4.49452166e13
17:39:40 <sbp> .calc 0xffffffffffff in decimal
17:39:43 <phenny> 0xffffffffffff = 2.81474977e14
17:39:48 <sbp> no? u?
17:40:12 <sbp> .eval __import__('decimal').Decimal(str(2.81474977e14)).normalize()
17:40:14 <phenny> Decimal("2.81474977E+14")
17:40:19 <sbp> heh
17:41:20 <sbp> .eval long(2.81474977e14)
17:41:22 <phenny> 281474977000000L
17:41:56 <sbp> woah, Israel 1-0 Russia so far!
17:44:50 <nsh> YOU SHALL BE BELEAGUERED
17:45:01 <nsh> .ety beleaguered
17:45:01 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "beleaguered". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=beleaguered
17:45:46 <nsh> apparantly, originally from dutch 'belegeren', meaning, "camp round"
17:46:04 <sbp> .ety beleaguered
17:46:11 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "beleaguered". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=beleaguered
17:46:12 <sbp> .ety beleaguere
17:46:14 <sbp> .ety beleaguer
17:46:15 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "beleaguere". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=beleaguere
17:46:15 <sbp> .ety beleague
17:46:17 <phenny> "1589, from Du. belegeren 'to besiege,' from be- 'around' + legeren 'to camp.' A 16c. word from the Flemish Wars." - http://etymonline.com/?term=beleaguer
17:46:17 <sbp> .ety beleagued
17:46:17 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "beleague". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=beleague
17:46:19 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "beleagued". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=beleagued
17:46:21 <sbp> ah, there we go
17:50:14 <nsh> +++
17:50:34 <nsh> my throwing stars spin in unison; do yours?
17:51:14 <sbp> ✕✕✕
17:51:15 <sbp> yes
17:57:10 *** MorbusIff has quit ("YOU BEST NOT WAKE TEH MORBUS")
17:57:18 <sbp> 'k
17:59:51 <nsh> who the hell
17:59:53 <nsh> ever
17:59:57 <nsh> thought it was a good idea
18:00:04 <nsh> to put articles
18:00:06 <nsh> on seven
18:00:07 <nsh> fucking
18:00:09 <nsh> pages?
18:02:04 <sbp> heh, yeah, I hate that
18:02:14 <sbp> multiple column newspaper articles online too
18:02:50 <sbp> and houses in SL that mimic RL houses
18:02:56 <sbp> very annoying
18:03:00 * nsh nods
18:24:21 *** MoiraA_ (i=moira@gateway/tor/x-2e7c5524e8a89ca9) has joined #swhack
18:40:45 *** MoiraA has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:41:09 *** MoiraA (i=moira@gateway/tor/x-0d26772dffaf8e6c) has joined #swhack
18:44:12 <sbp> ah... a snag with mercurial
18:44:21 <sbp> you need to have a browsable directory in order to clone it
18:44:32 <sbp> and browsable means: using hg to serve it
18:45:01 <sbp> which is ridiculous
18:45:10 <sbp> the files are all there and public, and it should know the URIs...
18:45:11 *** qopi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
18:45:46 <cr`x_> nsh, with a lot of sites people have written scripts that automatically redirect to the single page versions of articles
18:46:04 * nsh has re-pagination, works quite well
18:46:15 <nsh> so, annoying in principle rather than in practice
18:46:35 <nsh> but still Wrong, regardless.
18:48:04 <cr`x_> agreed
18:53:20 *** MoiraA_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:55:13 <sbp> $ scp bia:/usr/share/doc/mercurial/examples/hgweb.cgi hg.cgi
18:56:31 <sbp> cool:
18:56:32 <sbp> RevlogError: index 00changelog.i invalid format 2
18:56:32 <sbp>    args = ('index 00changelog.i invalid format 2',)
18:56:39 <sbp> YOU SUCK MERCURIAL
18:56:58 <sbp> http://www.selenic.com/repo/hg/raw-file/tip/hgweb.cgi doesn't work either
18:57:42 <sbp> so there's no way I can make it snarfable via http, apparently
18:58:17 <sbp> nice helpful error message, too
19:00:39 *** karamba38 has quit (Remote closed the connection)
19:03:51 <sbp> alright, I asked in #mercurial
19:05:59 <nsh> what are you doing?
19:06:23 <sbp> trying to get hgweb.cgi working with this repo
19:06:41 <sbp> so that people can get it via http
19:06:49 <sbp> à la: hg clone uri
19:07:19 <sbp> I'm kinda annoyed that it doesn't Just Work
19:07:29 * nsh blinks, asks the operator for a download on the last four years of technological progress
19:08:19 <nsh> you want to let people look at computer-spells from their webtubeboxes?
19:09:05 <nsh> .wik hg code repository
19:09:10 <phenny> "Mercurial is a cross-platform, distributed source management tool for software developers." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercurial_(software)
19:09:19 <sbp> hehe
19:09:33 <sbp> it's like the cvs that you use
19:09:37 <sbp> only for kids
19:11:34 <nsh> funtimeremorse!
19:11:51 <nsh> (in my head, it's a japanese game show of dubious morality)
19:13:55 <sbp> and the answer...
19:13:55 <sbp> 19:50 * sbp finds "Make the plain repository available. This uses a much slower, less reliable protocol, called static-http. We won't cover it here." in http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/PublishingRepositories as a possible clue... shame it's not, um, covered there though
19:13:56 <sbp> 19:50 <hgbot> <http://ln-s.net/bDE> (at www.selenic.com)
19:13:56 <sbp> 19:51 <sbp> ah, I see how it works. just use static-http as the "protocol"
19:13:56 <sbp> 19:51 <sbp> awesome
19:17:20 <cr`x_> phenny: "Głos Pana"?
19:17:24 <phenny> cr`x_: Hmm, got "polish"...
19:18:05 <nsh> classic
19:18:31 <sbp> whoo!
19:18:36 <sbp> Israel 2-1 Russia!
19:18:48 <sbp> ahahaha, the impossible has happened
19:18:54 <sbp> though Lawro said 0-0
19:19:05 <sbp> at any rate, that means we just need to draw on Wednesday...
19:19:57 <sbp> "just"...
19:20:45 *** therethinker has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:21:47 <kpreid> hm
19:21:52 <kpreid> two meanings of "reliable"
19:22:04 <kpreid> a) "always works"
19:22:09 <sbp> make it liable again. and rely + able
19:22:11 <kpreid> b) "will not hose your data"
19:22:22 <sbp> I count three
19:22:48 <sbp> one real (rely + able), two facetious (sbp-joke, kpreid-joke)
19:23:04 <kpreid> what joke?
19:23:13 <kpreid> I may be wrong about (b) existing though
19:23:32 *** therethinker (n=zach@c-76-24-122-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
19:23:45 <sbp> it was litotes, wasn't it?
19:23:49 <sbp> LITOTES IS FUNNY MAN
19:24:09 <sbp> no, not litotes
19:24:15 <sbp> one of the rhetorical effects, anyway
19:24:29 <sbp> also hello! haven't seen you in ages
19:26:19 <kpreid> what!
19:26:21 <cr`x_> that uh, wasn't not litotes
19:26:33 <kpreid> .swhack-excluding-today kpreid
19:26:47 <sbp> hmph, rsync won't delete files... locally at least
19:26:55 <sbp> it does over the network, but not on my filesystem
19:26:56 <kpreid> surely there's an option!
19:27:06 <sbp> well, it deletes 'em over the network with -avz
19:27:11 <sbp> and won't, locally, with -avz
19:27:18 <kpreid> 2007-11-15 01:38:43 <kpreid> and title-fetchers usually work -- http://swhack.com/tail/kpreid
19:27:19 <sbp> wait, I think I recall this...
19:27:23 <sbp> I think you have to add --delete or something
19:27:37 <kpreid> .gc rsynchole
19:27:39 <phenny> rsynchole: 0
19:27:45 <kpreid> .gc rsinkhole
19:27:47 <sbp> yeah, --delete
19:27:47 <phenny> rsinkhole: 0
19:27:55 <sbp> perhaps I use --delete remotely too
19:28:05 <sbp> (I always call it in a script)
19:28:26 <sbp> yup, there we go. cool
19:28:30 <kpreid> rsync is a thing that I probably have some uses for but haven't bothered to learn how to use
19:28:42 <sbp> it's pretty nifty
19:28:47 <sbp> generally very, very reliable
19:28:49 <kpreid> .gc nift
19:28:52 <phenny> nift: 245,000
19:28:53 <sbp> I think I've only ever had one problem with it
19:28:55 <kpreid> .g nift
19:28:58 <phenny> kpreid: http://www.niftindia.com/
19:28:59 <sbp> it hath much nift
19:29:02 <kpreid> uh huh
19:29:12 <sbp> unlike unison, which is sorta junk
19:29:37 <kpreid> The Junk of Sorta?
19:29:45 <sbp> I was thinking like a boat
19:29:53 <sbp> so if Sorta is a port, sure
19:30:01 <kpreid> well-anchored?
19:30:04 <sbp> heh
19:30:13 <sbp> and fraying around the crow's nest
19:30:19 <kpreid> "heh"? I can't work with that. gimme a hook here.
19:30:26 <sbp> .unicode gook
19:30:29 <sbp> .unicode hook
19:30:29 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for "GOOK".
19:30:32 <phenny> U+2440 OCR HOOK (⑀)
19:30:39 <sbp> 咒
19:30:41 <kpreid> "Your hair is a crow's nest! A crow's nest!"
19:30:53 <sbp> (㋡)
19:33:26 <kpreid> (⃝)⃝
19:33:45 <sbp> eek
19:34:02 <sbp> :̈̈̈̈̈̈̈̈̈̈̈
19:35:20 *** nellex (n=nellex@41.219.245.105) has joined #swhack
19:35:32 <sbp> hi nellex
19:35:53 <nellex> hi sbp
19:36:17 <nellex> wats happening
19:36:24 <sbp> pix n'gai sang pë̈rexo?
19:36:41 <sbp> lop jingba'k
19:36:43 <nellex> yep
19:36:49 <sbp> c'oi?
19:37:12 <nellex> so where are u from
19:37:37 <sbp> 33/m/Lamȝsai
19:37:40 <sbp> u
19:37:46 <cr`x_> Ѿ
19:37:47 <sbp> t'grek mfox mbox
19:38:02 <sbp> ôÔô
19:38:11 <nellex> ha ha ha
19:38:19 <nellex> 29 m eng
19:38:21 <sbp> nellex: pix plz
19:38:36 <cr`x_> .unicode thousands
19:38:38 <phenny> U+0482 CYRILLIC THOUSANDS SIGN (҂)
19:38:43 <nellex> let me send to your mail box
19:38:47 <sbp> 'k
19:38:54 <sbp> mjokfangbai@mailinator.com
19:39:14 <cr`x_> .unicode millons
19:39:14 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for "MILLONS".
19:39:18 <cr`x_> .unicode millions
19:39:18 <phenny> U+0489 COMBINING CYRILLIC MILLIONS SIGN (҉)
19:39:30 <nellex> wats ur mail add
19:39:49 <sbp> nellex mjokfangbai@mailinator.com
19:39:55 <nellex> ok
19:39:55 <nellex> send me urs too
19:40:38 <nellex> ok
19:40:39 <sbp> 'k
19:40:45 <nellex> wait i will send u mine now ok
19:41:38 <nellex> k
19:41:59 <nellex> so wat do u do?
19:42:28 <cr`x_> k
19:42:39 <sbp> splingbat emfox abap m'koi dang fandingo
19:42:48 <sbp> pix plz
19:42:58 <nellex> am on it
19:43:03 <nellex> its attaching ok
19:43:05 <sbp> 'k
19:43:07 <sbp> thx
19:43:13 <nellex> u welcome
19:43:20 <sbp> ㋡
19:43:30 <nellex> lol
19:43:34 <cr`x_> -Ѿ-
19:43:38 <sbp> 咒
19:44:20 <nellex> wats that sign
19:44:29 <sbp> shangbag mikfox
19:44:50 <nellex> wat does it do
19:44:51 <sbp> i tink english said call 'man moon'
19:44:56 <sbp> ???
19:45:06 <sbp> p'erai lasco disco ming binge
19:45:33 <nellex> hmmm
19:45:50 <cr`x_> ⁙Ѿ⁙
19:45:55 <sbp> pix plz
19:46:59 <nellex> 1min
19:47:04 <sbp> 'k thx
19:47:47 <nellex> got it
19:47:50 <nellex> hmm
19:48:03 <sbp> emi la pai dringo situn'i jj'kai "urinate" pia dora??
19:48:40 <nellex> so are u an hacker
19:48:53 <sbp> lvl 1 haxk == free
19:48:56 <sbp> lvl 2 haxk == free
19:48:58 <sbp> lvl 3 haxk == free
19:49:05 <sbp> lvl 4 haxk == 5 CAD
19:49:09 <sbp> lvl 5 haxk == 6 CAD
19:49:10 * cr`x_ האָב שפילקעס
19:49:16 <sbp> lvl 6 haxk == 8 CAD
19:49:19 <sbp> lvl 7 haxk == 10 CAD
19:49:23 <sbp> lvl 8 haxk == 15 CAD
19:49:28 <sbp> lvl 9 haxk == 50 CAD
19:49:33 <sbp> lvl 10 haxk == 100 CAD
19:49:38 <sbp> lvl 11 haxk == 250 CAD
19:49:43 <sbp> lvl 12 haxk == 300 CAD
19:49:52 <sbp> lvl 13 haxk == 275 CAD
19:49:56 <sbp> lvl 14 haxk == 500 CAD
19:50:01 <sbp> lvl 15 haxk == 1000 CAD
19:50:06 <sbp> u pay canadian dollar
19:50:23 <sbp> juri rig mon bonbon plix k'spip k'spop
19:50:24 <nellex> yeah
19:50:34 <nellex> so..
19:50:43 *** cre8radix (n=cre8radi@p54BE4DC8.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #swhack
19:50:44 <Monty> hey cre8radix
19:51:14 <cre8radix> hey Monty
19:51:15 <Monty> Fair enough.,
19:51:23 <cre8radix> np Monty
19:51:25 <Monty> anus touches sound effects!!!
19:51:33 <cre8radix> hrhr
19:51:43 <cre8radix> i'll keep that in mind, Monty
19:51:44 <Monty> What does that suggest to you ?
19:52:04 <cre8radix> my sound
19:52:08 <cre8radix> 's got ass
19:52:16 <cre8radix> Monty:
19:52:19 <Monty> wow, it isn't opera doesn't Just me. I found yesterday!
19:53:00 <nellex> u there sbp
19:53:19 <sbp> nellex(hai)
19:53:22 <sbp> nellex(u there)
19:53:40 <sbp> izmo dixmo
19:53:43 <nellex> have u seen my pix
19:53:49 <sbp> no
19:54:10 <sbp> plx plz
19:54:53 <nellex> i have sent it to u
19:55:02 <sbp> i hav not got it : : : ( ( (
19:55:16 <nellex> check ur mail
19:55:20 <sbp> 'k
19:55:25 <nellex> ok
19:55:27 <nellex> let me send it to u again
19:55:35 <sbp> yah i hav not got it
19:56:01 <nellex> ok
19:58:14 <nellex> check ur mail
19:58:20 <nellex> i have sent it to u again
19:58:22 <nellex> gmail
19:58:38 *** qopi (n=chatzill@cpc1-nott3-0-0-cust694.nott.cable.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
19:58:42 <sbp> o i am gots it!!
19:58:42 <nellex> ok
19:58:42 <nellex> sbp
19:58:45 <sbp> but not pix
19:58:47 <sbp> lolololol
19:58:50 <sbp> lolfence
19:59:04 <nellex> lol
19:59:09 <nellex> seen me now
19:59:18 <sbp> no : : : ( ( (
19:59:22 <sbp> email come
19:59:24 <sbp> not pix
19:59:29 <sbp> : : : ( ( (
19:59:32 <sbp> <<<咒咒咒>>>
19:59:38 <nellex> i sent it via gmail
19:59:47 <sbp> can u send 2 sbp@slaskpost.se plz
19:59:50 <sbp> sry. plz??
19:59:56 <nellex> k
20:00:01 <sbp> thx!! :)
20:00:14 <nellex> the name is on micheal goodlock
20:00:18 <sbp> 'k
20:00:22 <nellex> check ur mail on that name
20:00:54 <sbp> can u send 2 sbp@slaskpost.se plz from gmail??
20:00:59 <sbp> sry
20:01:25 <nellex> check now
20:01:28 <nellex> k
20:01:38 <sbp> tirilika shaengfong j'ping j'pong, j'imbo whalz si teh coolzor mon bok fai langsyne dongs
20:01:58 <sbp> omg is not work sry
20:05:18 <nellex> wat why
20:05:25 <sbp> i donot know
20:05:27 <nellex> ok send me urs
20:05:27 <sbp> sry
20:05:34 <nellex> send me ur pix
20:06:12 <sbp> jigne?
20:06:22 <nellex> nelsoncycline@gmail.com
20:06:33 <sbp> noooooooooo
20:06:35 <sbp> is public logs
20:06:40 <sbp> u will be spammed into rane
20:06:44 <sbp> : : : ( ( (
20:06:50 <sbp> i will edit logs for u later if u want ???
20:07:02 <nellex> ok
20:07:06 <nellex> do it for me ok
20:07:09 <sbp> 'k
20:07:11 <nellex> thnx
20:07:24 <nellex> so u a hacker
20:07:31 <sbp> haxing prices
20:07:35 <sbp> lvl 1 is free
20:07:37 <sbp> lvl 2 is free
20:07:39 <sbp> lvl 3 is free
20:07:41 <sbp> lvl 4 is free
20:07:47 <sbp> lvl 5 is 15 CAD
20:07:52 <sbp> lvl 6 is 20 CAD
20:07:53 <nellex> i dont understand
20:07:56 <bancus> sbp: how many times we tell you not to be selling ur shit here?
20:07:57 <sbp> lvl 7 is 25 CAD
20:08:00 <sbp> hax
20:08:04 <sbp> bancus: i am sry :
20:08:08 <sbp> :shy:
20:08:22 <sbp> nellex a hax has a lvl
20:08:32 <sbp> if u want hax we say it lvl what it haz
20:08:42 <sbp> then u pay CAD to us merry good bank account yes please 100%
20:08:44 <sbp> then we hax
20:08:56 <sbp> then all happy bongot tastic munty in the spipple dongfack
20:10:02 <cr`x_> i have level 4 hax
20:10:28 <nsh> mine got dirty and mom washed it
20:10:31 <nellex> wow
20:10:33 <cr`x_> please perform
20:10:39 <nsh> now iz only lvl3
20:10:41 <sbp> tu parles français, nellex? Il serait beaucoup plus facile si l'on pouvait parler ensemble en français parce que le français est une langue que j'ai des rapports sexuels avec des personnes po filles seulement, vous comprenez!
20:11:16 <nellex> how i wish i can see u
20:11:19 <nellex> sbp
20:11:24 <sbp> sry : : : ( ( (
20:11:33 <sbp> tu parles fançais??
20:11:42 <sbp> *fran¸a... argh
20:12:05 <cr`x_> s'il vous plait, compromîse structural integrité du couche aquifère du Евре́йская автоно́мная о́бласть s'il vous plait
20:12:24 <nellex> speak english
20:12:47 <sbp> l'intégrité structurelle de mon robinet est à nul autre pareil, de sorte que toutes les belles dames sur des champs elysée me dire!
20:12:49 <sbp> sry
20:12:55 <sbp> i hopes you speak french
20:12:57 *** MorbusIff (n=morbus@c-24-34-64-110.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
20:12:59 <sbp> then we chat nice 100%
20:13:18 <nellex> no me no speak french
20:13:19 *** MorbusIff has quit (Remote closed the connection)
20:13:22 <sbp> 'k sry
20:13:23 <nellex> i speak english
20:13:27 <sbp> english!!
20:13:30 <sbp> ô
20:13:31 <cr`x_> i also speak english!
20:13:35 <sbp> me too!!
20:13:40 <sbp> with aplomb!!
20:13:42 <cr`x_> and i also speak english
20:13:43 <sbp> and tally ho gusto!!
20:13:58 <sbp> eh wot guvner hello rabbit rabbit yes please yes please
20:14:03 <sbp> do you have the time madam
20:14:07 <sbp> the queen is coming for yea
20:14:24 <sbp> is thast a beefeater in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me
20:14:40 <nsh> for the love of all that is holy: more brass-eye pls
20:14:40 <sbp> i like english
20:14:43 <nellex> lol
20:14:44 <sbp> u r enlgand??
20:14:52 <nellex> yes
20:14:55 <sbp> 'k!!
20:15:02 <sbp> like very much
20:15:05 <cr`x_> nellex, i am speak english very also
20:15:13 <cr`x_> non?
20:15:17 <cr`x_> belle chance?
20:15:22 <sbp> r u going to watch England vs. Croatia on Wednesday or r u not into fotbol??
20:15:33 <cr`x_> i also speak croatia
20:15:44 <cre8radix> sbp: ???
20:15:46 <nellex> wow i love football
20:15:50 <nellex> i play football too
20:15:56 * cre8radix wtfs
20:15:58 <nellex> do u like football
20:16:02 <sbp> my frend Jason says "oh spiffo! it's going to be delightfully whizzo, eh wot! we're going to spoff those jallywozzers in the cuntbusters, isn't it? my lollings"
20:16:21 <sbp> which i think means english are going o win?? i do not know lol
20:16:32 <cre8radix> sbp: todays log?
20:16:35 <sbp> do u thing english r win??
20:16:36 <cre8radix> yesterdays?
20:16:40 <cre8radix> alladem?
20:16:42 <sbp> today's
20:16:54 <nellex> yea
20:17:02 <nellex> england play good football
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20:17:10 <nellex> i believe they will win
20:17:51 <sbp> even with Owen out??
20:18:00 <nellex> yea
20:18:02 <nellex> lol
20:18:04 <sbp> and Coratia top of teh table
20:18:26 <sbp> and lost against Russian :( " : ) ( (
20:18:27 <nellex> wat do u think
20:18:40 <nellex> who do u think will win d match
20:18:42 <sbp> hmm, I think we might hold them to a draw. we've been playing well at Wembley
20:18:51 <sbp> well, neither if we draw :-)
20:19:10 <cr`x_> i also play cuntbusters
20:19:13 <sbp> heh, heh
20:19:19 <cr`x_> i speak cuntbuster beaucoup de bon chance
20:19:21 <sbp> you and your jallywozzers
20:19:48 <nellex> jallywozzer ha ha ha
20:19:56 <sbp> quite
20:20:09 <sbp> anyway, we were pretty lucky that Israel beat Russia tonight really
20:20:22 <sbp> if it was a draw, what would've been the state of Wednesday's match, do you know?
20:20:29 <sbp> would we have had to win or something?
20:20:55 <nellex> yea
20:21:04 <nellex> we would have to win by all means
20:21:11 <sbp> hmm
20:21:15 <sbp> which would still be possible
20:21:29 <sbp> not sure we play particularly well under pressure though
20:21:38 <sbp> not qualifying pressure, at least
20:21:38 <nellex> yea
20:21:44 <sbp> tournament pressure tends to be a bit different
20:21:45 <nellex> lol
20:21:48 <nellex> yes
20:22:13 <sbp> so what kind of level do you play at, then?
20:22:20 <sbp> I mean *every* English male plays football
20:22:57 <nellex> ha ha ha
20:23:02 <nellex> yea
20:23:06 <nellex> i am a stricker
20:23:30 <nellex> i love to score goals
20:23:43 <sbp> yeah, but what level? school team? pub team?
20:24:02 <sbp> Whatever's Replaced the Vauxhall Conference team?
20:24:11 <sbp> .wik Vauxhall Conference
20:24:14 <phenny> "The Football Conference is a football league at the top of the National League System of non-League football in England." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauxhall_Conference
20:24:30 <sbp> I still can't get used to the new league designations. even though they're like five years old now
20:24:59 <sbp> I like how it's the National League System of non-League football
20:25:12 <nellex> its ok
20:25:16 <sbp> doesn't make sense, when you think about it
20:25:28 <nellex> ha ha ha yea i feel u
20:25:37 <sbp> please don't feel me. pervert
20:25:42 <sbp> :-)
20:26:01 <sbp> so what's your goalscoring record this season?
20:26:20 <sbp> assuming you play at at least a vaguely amateur level where you note such things
20:26:43 <nellex> am not a pervert
20:26:48 <nellex> ok
20:27:14 <xover> We have the pictures to prove it.
20:27:19 <sbp> hehe
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20:29:17 <nellex> sbp
20:29:20 <nellex> u there
20:29:28 <nellex> do u know anything about banks login
20:29:30 <sbp> yup
20:29:46 <sbp> banks? well I know about my own bank's login system of course
20:30:01 <nellex> where do u bank
20:30:02 <sbp> it's not massively secure, but it's still more secure than most sites as far as I can tell
20:30:11 <sbp> heh, I'm not exactly going to tell you that
20:30:21 <nellex> wat y
20:30:36 <sbp> because I'm not a complete idiot with respect to security?
20:30:44 <sbp> I mean, this is a hacking channel after all right?
20:30:52 <sbp> what's the first rule of anti-hacking?
20:31:03 <sbp> don't give out private data. shred your files, encrypt your data
20:31:12 <sbp> apply the latest patches, use a decent OS, etc.
20:31:34 <sbp> you should know this if you're a hacker!
20:32:10 <nellex> ha ha ha ha
20:32:22 <nellex> thats nice
20:32:31 <nellex> u still kep up the rules
20:34:44 <sbp> hmm?
20:35:26 <sbp> hey, I remember when they changed offside to stop Ian Rush from goalhanging
20:35:27 <nellex> yep
20:36:03 <nellex> ha ha ha
20:36:04 <nellex> yeah
20:38:54 <KragenSitaker> sbp: did you ever see darius bacon's snikisniki?
20:39:01 <sbp> nope?
20:39:19 * sbp enquires of the Google
20:39:25 <KragenSitaker> it was a triple store wiki thingie
20:39:37 <sbp> hmm, the top mention of it is kragen-tol
20:39:41 <KragenSitaker> yeah
20:39:42 <sbp> in a purple message
20:39:45 <KragenSitaker> i wonder if it's up at the moment
20:40:04 <KragenSitaker> in sniki you could write queries that would match against the triple store prolog style
20:40:10 <KragenSitaker> and they would render as a table of results
20:40:36 <KragenSitaker> [Parent parent Child, Child parent Grandchild] would give you a nice table of all the parents who had grandchildren
20:40:47 <KragenSitaker> assuming bob parent mary represented that bob was a parent of mary
20:41:09 <sbp> that's pretty much what a SPARQL query does
20:41:15 <KragenSitaker> all the verb/object pairs were in a textarea at the end of the wiki page for their subject
20:41:22 <sbp> { ?Parent :parent ?Child . ?Child :parent ?Grandchild }
20:41:24 <KragenSitaker> yeah, i figured
20:41:35 <sbp> ah, a Semantic Wiki... hmm
20:41:38 <KragenSitaker> even though I don't know Sparql
20:41:43 <sbp> heh, heh
20:42:00 <KragenSitaker> i thought it might be of interest to you
20:42:04 <sbp> yup!
20:42:29 <sbp> but it seems to have bitrotted
20:42:31 <sbp> http://scannedinavian.org:8082/page/sniki is down
20:42:35 <sbp> for example
20:42:48 <KragenSitaker> yes
20:42:50 <sbp> Google is pretty scatty on it in general
20:42:58 <KragenSitaker> i think i have a copy of the source somewhere
20:43:00 <sbp> got any breadcrumbs?
20:43:04 <sbp> cool. what language?
20:43:15 <KragenSitaker> python
20:43:20 <sbp> yays
20:43:59 <KragenSitaker> also i wrote a dhtml approximation, without the multiple pages --- just a triple store and queries on it
20:44:12 <KragenSitaker> which is on kragen-hacks i think
20:44:31 <KragenSitaker> also http://pobox.com/~kragen/sw/dhtml-sniki.html
20:46:04 <sbp> "simple (yet over-complex) triple-store library" - heh
20:46:41 <nellex> sbp
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20:46:42 <nellex> u there
20:47:10 <sbp> of course I'm here. I spoke several seconds ago! :-)
20:47:19 <sbp> how about you? are you there?
20:47:27 <nellex> lol
20:47:29 <nellex> ok
20:47:32 <nellex> take care
20:47:34 <sbp> I'll take that as a yes
20:47:35 <nellex> i have to go
20:47:35 <sbp> hehe
20:47:36 <nellex> ok
20:47:37 <sbp> c'ya!
20:47:38 <nsh> xx1xx
20:47:47 <tobbez> 11x11
20:47:51 <nellex> talk to u 2moro
20:47:53 <sbp> 'k
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20:48:00 <sbp> what a pleasant chap
20:48:36 <nsh> i say we convince the bugger they're a member of the aristocracy, just for the sake of a lordly wager
20:48:50 <nsh> anyone for chips?
20:48:54 <sbp> oh man, that reminds me...
20:49:00 <sbp> I was lurking on a really small channel once
20:49:06 <nsh> yah
20:49:09 <sbp> and a confused person came in asking what it was all about
20:49:20 <sbp> and I said it's the Official Channel for the Government of Lichtenstein
20:49:32 <nsh> awesome
20:49:37 <sbp> and, as far as I know, I eventually managed to convince them that it was, indeed, the Official Channel for the Government of Lichetenstein
20:49:44 <sbp> I had to look up a lot about Lichtenstein for that
20:49:45 <sbp> heh
20:50:01 <nsh> werf it
20:50:04 <sbp> yup
20:50:08 * nsh goes to get some chips
20:50:22 <KragenSitaker> looks like I don't have the sniki source any more, sbp, sorry
20:50:34 <KragenSitaker> darius probably does
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20:51:53 <KragenSitaker> did you find out how to spell Liechtenstein at some point during the conversation?
20:52:00 <KragenSitaker> (har har)
20:52:01 <sbp> nope
20:52:26 <sbp> well probably, but I hope not
20:52:30 <sbp> that'd be even funnier
20:56:01 <tobbez> thanks for the entertaining backlog, sbp :)
20:56:15 <sbp> heh, heh. ur welcome thx <㋡>
20:56:22 <sbp> I'm off; 'night!
21:00:03 <deltab> "Apologies if you're trying to make your own free Red Dwarf DVDs by recording these episodes — I've just gone and spoiled it by talking over the credits. There's another episode next, and I'm going to talk over that one too, hahaha." — continuity announcer on Dave
21:00:55 <JibberJim> I thought that was good too :)
21:00:57 <phenny> JibberJim: 16 Nov 02:55Z <_bjoern> tell JibberJim long long ago http://sourceforge.net/projects/snapsie might have been useful to you... :-)
21:02:01 <JibberJim> hang on - reading the backscroll - you mean _this_ isn't the official channel for the government of lichenstein? 
21:02:05 <JibberJim> What am I doing here?
21:03:27 <tobbez> I think you're here to find out what you're doing here.
21:05:41 <JibberJim> very metaphysical
21:07:08 <tobbez> Possibly.
21:09:38 * Arnia boings sideways
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21:11:12 <Arnia> Non-terminating recursive definitions are those things which have some truth and a non-terminating recursive definition
21:11:16 <Arnia> Bugger... didn't work
21:13:12 *** MorbusIff (n=morbus@c-24-34-64-110.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
21:13:12 <Monty> lo MorbusIff
21:13:23 <tobbez> Iff Iff Iff
21:39:22 <Arnia> Oh I hate journal searches
21:46:47 <nsh> .ety bedouin
21:46:50 <phenny> "c.1400, from Fr. bedouin, from Ar. badawin 'desert-dwellers,' pl. of badawi, from badw 'desert, camp.' A word from the Crusades, it probably was lost and then reborrowed from Fr. in 17c." - http://etymonline.com/?term=bedouin
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21:54:22 <Arnia> humph
21:54:37 <glen_quagmire> i like black eyed peas too
21:55:07 <glen_quagmire> .g youtube black eyed peas humph
21:55:10 <phenny> glen_quagmire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbZc7j6A230
21:55:39 <Arnia> A terminal object is an object 1 such that for any other object a, there is exactly one arrow (usually denoted !a) from a to 1.
21:56:25 <Arnia> Does owl:Thing seem obviously a terminal object to anyone else, with the arrows !a being the obvious rdfs:subClassOf statements
21:57:24 <glen_quagmire> terminal object is a node where it has only 1 incoming arc
21:57:27 <Arnia> Trouble is, being terminal also means that arrows FROM 1 are special. They are global elements, or constants, and form the basis of algebras of functors.
21:57:48 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: no, a terminal object has as many incoming arcs as there are objects
21:58:00 <Arnia> One for each object
21:58:14 <Arnia> (including itself, which is the identity arrow)
21:58:59 * Arnia tries to see an intuitive description of what arrows from owl:Thing are in terms of RDF, but fails
21:59:07 <glen_quagmire> terminal object has outgoing arrow?
21:59:23 <glen_quagmire> maybe THE outgoing arrow: identity arrow?
21:59:33 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: it can have as many outgoing arrows as you like; but it is defined in terms of its incoming arrows
22:00:02 <glen_quagmire> Arnia: does a terminal object have to have an arrow from all other objects?
22:00:23 <Arnia> Yes. Please reread the definition of terminal I gave
22:00:50 <glen_quagmire> oh exactly 1
22:01:06 <Arnia> The global elements seem to be simply a necessary part of the categorical semantics I've been constructing and, as such, are a necessary change with respect to the set-theoretic semantics it has now.
22:01:28 <Arnia> I'd still like to find an initial object though (the dual concept to terminal objects)
22:02:57 <Arnia> If I have both a terminal and an initial object (and they're don't coalece into a zero object, that is an object that is both terminal and initial) then I can properly render tr_V cartesian closed
22:03:10 <Arnia> *coalesce
22:06:24 <Arnia> Anyway, there are lots of notions whose significance I need to explore at some point
22:07:13 <Arnia> For a start, the notion of combinatorial species seems to capture a notion of complexity of semantic description which may be important in the proper design of distributed, reasoning stores for the semantic web
22:08:05 <Arnia> Second, CIFPs are, at first blush, either trivial or impossible within this framework. I'm hoping the former; since it would be a lovely step up on the formidable CIFP designs of OWL1.1
22:09:27 <Arnia> Also, there are all sorts of interesting possibilities relating to the complexity of the word problem on sketches and the structure of the sketch itself. Since sketches can be handled algebraically, it may even be possible to divide sketches into parts and reason with them separately
22:10:35 <Arnia> But... and this is a big but... I still don't understand sheaf theory or initial algebra semantics well enough to precisely define a solution to the word problem or to link my category of RDF (and its models) to my countable chains of uncertainty
22:10:49 *** idickinson has quit ("Leaving.")
22:11:11 <Arnia> I have lots of pieces of the jigsaw and no guarantee they're all from the *same* jigsaw, let alone that I'm capable of putting them together.
22:11:51 <Arnia> Sort of unnerving, especially without a supervisor to advise me and a topic which has rapidly drifted into pure theory far apart from the non-axiomatics I have been trying to capture
22:12:32 <Arnia> (that latter problem is a whole different kettle of fish and I have no chance of devising a categorical representation of non-axiomatic logic and its relatives in the time I have to do my PhD, short of a miracle)
22:12:45 <Arnia> Also, a lot of my results have been negative
22:13:59 <Arnia> For example, the terminal object in the category of Heyting algebras turns out to be the one-element poset. This was meant to represent my 0-uncertainty case. If I still take it to be that, what it means is that in a 0-uncertain system you cannot distinguish truth at all under an open-world assumption
22:14:01 <Arnia> BAH
22:14:08 * Arnia scares everyone away
22:16:41 <Arnia> Sorry for that monologue... I'm still trying to sort my thoughts out on this matter
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22:27:40 <glen_quagmire> i say you get phD in computer graphics like eveyrone else
22:28:22 * perigrin 's brain hurts from maths he hasn't studied in years
22:29:29 <glen_quagmire> i thought i knew math until i saw matrices
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22:30:36 <Arnia> computer graphics is boring
22:30:56 <Arnia> It is just vector calculus; which is inherently dull :p
22:31:34 <Arnia> Why anyone would want to do it is beyond me
22:31:49 <glen_quagmire> you get to see a sphere on screen!!!!!
22:32:26 <Arnia> perigrin: you should be glad that was the precis rather than the actual detailed descriptions I'm building in my NOTEBOOKS OF DEATH
22:32:53 <perigrin> I'm talking about pierce's book :)
22:32:55 <glen_quagmire> death note was an ok movie
22:32:58 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: I suspect a PhD in computer graphics is a little more involved than that judging by what the graphics researchers in Durham get up to.
22:33:08 <Arnia> perigrin: enjoying it?
22:33:28 <perigrin> yes despite the numbing pain
22:33:34 <perigrin> or because of
22:33:37 <Arnia> Category theory is awesomely beautiful
22:33:56 <clsn> Bleah. I could probably get a PhD in computer science in a bunch of fields... if only I could concentrate on one topic long enough!
22:34:25 <perigrin> I had the worlds worst intro to discrete structures ... makes all the rest of higher maths hard to wade through
22:34:26 <Arnia> clsn: sort of my problem... I'm a terrible person for sticking to a topic. I want to know it all... ooh shiny
22:34:33 <Arnia> perigrin: hm?
22:35:42 <perigrin> My only formal intro to higher mathmatics (set theory, proofs, inductive logic, recursion theory etc.) came in a 300 person "Introduction to Discrete Structures" course in which the professor lectured in a monotonic chineese accent
22:35:43 <clsn> Arnia: tell me about it. :(
22:35:45 <Arnia> I think the two hardest aspects of category theory are its abstractness (makes it hard to see what these constructions 'mean' in real use, and typical introductions are way too flippant with their assumed knowledge)
22:35:54 <glen_quagmire> you can get a phd by writing a program that takes a video stream and describes the stream in human language
22:35:59 <Arnia> and the brevity of each of the structures
22:36:12 <Arnia> (you sit there asking yourself 'is that it?')
22:36:17 <glen_quagmire> or sign lanugage to english translation software
22:36:27 <perigrin> So when I start having to wade through stuff that uses the same encoded language (ie Anything in higher mathmatics) my brain starts to shut down ...
22:36:28 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: the latter has already been tackled
22:36:46 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: the first is so big a problem that it is well beyond what is possible in a PhD atm
22:36:49 <clsn> I wrote a blazonry-to-SVG converter, with Broca.
22:37:01 <perigrin> but yes I've noticed both of thsoe aspects of Category theory ... "You mean that's it? That right there? In that little graph?"
22:37:40 <glen_quagmire> oh nice
22:37:47 <clsn> I can do big things... as hobbies. but for real? bleah.
22:37:52 <Arnia> Oddly, that is exactly what makes it so beautiful; the ability to capture such broad commonalities with such little fuss
22:38:16 <Arnia> clsn: you could help me with my PhD, as a hobby :p
22:38:51 <clsn> Heh... And I really *would* like to have a sheepskin for it...
22:39:05 <Arnia> Joint PhD? ;)
22:39:39 <clsn> Heh. I don't think they do that.
22:40:02 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: learn category theory. Right now. Yes, don't walk, run. It is the single most important branch of maths for understanding, well, maths.
22:40:30 <clsn> I need to get you and sbp and the other folks here to poke me when/if I start talking about something interesting, tell me to blog about it.
22:40:33 <Arnia> clsn: I've seen a couple of joint PhDs... the link grammar one for example
22:40:49 <glen_quagmire> i heard the term catagory theory last week in class
22:40:52 <clsn> I can never think of things that are interesting enough...
22:41:16 <clsn> Hmm... I took some classes in categorization and did some work on my own too... Not sure it';s the same category theory.
22:41:34 <Arnia> .wik Category theory
22:41:38 <phenny> "In mathematics, category theory deals in an abstract way with mathematical structures and relationships between them." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_theory
22:42:18 <Arnia> My main topic of conversation recently
22:42:23 <clsn> Stuff like psychological research on how humans perceive categories (rule+exceptions, exemplar, etc etc)... also computer pattern-matching (k-nearest neighbor, machile learning etc.)
22:42:52 <clsn> That definition phenny just quoted, though, is about as informative as "mathematical category theory is a theory about stuff."
22:43:04 * Arnia knows categorisation theory (exemplars, prototypes, generalised cognitive metaphor, etc.) and category theory
22:43:24 <Arnia> The definition phenny just gave... is actually pretty accurate
22:43:34 <Arnia> Category theory subsumes most of mathematics
22:44:11 <glen_quagmire> .wik group theory
22:44:13 <phenny> "Group theory is the mathematical study of symmetry, as embodied in the structures known as groups." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_theory
22:44:18 <Arnia> (as in, almost all interesting mathematical constructions can be shown to arise from the categorification of the relevant domain)
22:44:25 <Arnia> Groups form a category
22:44:26 <clsn> Group theory I know something of...
22:44:52 <clsn> A theory is hardly worthwhile if it doesn't subsume most of the rest of the universe as a special case. :)
22:46:20 <clsn> Lagrangian mechanics was cool that way. Basically encapsulated all of classical physics in an equation.
22:46:23 <Arnia> As do monoids, groupoids, M-Sets, rings, fields, posets, semi-lattices, omega-cpos, lattices, deductive systems, lambda calculi, temporal logics, topologies, metric spaces, universal algebra, etc.
22:46:59 <Arnia> If you can (formally) talk about it, you can almost certainly construct a category for it
22:47:39 <clsn> Which sort of makes sense, rather like Set theory is the foundation of much of mathematics. Tho that's still pretty vague.
22:48:00 <Arnia> And all sorts of 'special' results for certain constructions can be lifted into categorical language and shown to be instances of a more powerful universal.
22:48:53 <Arnia> For example, Cayley's theorem on representable groups turns out to be the instance (in the category of groups) of Yoneda's lemma on set-valued contravariant functors
22:49:48 <clsn> OK I can't pretend I followed that, but I bet I would understand it if I looked up some of this stuff. :)
22:50:25 <glen_quagmire> i think i'm not meant for phd. i can't contribute to humankind anymore
22:50:58 <Arnia> clsn: interestingly, a few category theorists have claimed that category theory is sufficient to act as the foundation for mathematics (and it avoids a lot of the 'classical' assumptions such as bivalence and extensionality which make set theory hard to apply in paraconsistent reasoning and quantum mechanics)
22:51:53 <Arnia> clsn: in fact, several mathematical physicists have shown that the weirdness of quantum mechanics results from its natural home being in category theory rather than set theory. It only seems weird if you think the universe is set-theoretic.
22:52:21 <clsn> Now that sounds interesting.
22:52:32 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: what would you do a PhD in?
22:52:34 <clsn> Tho quantum mechanics does make a certain amount of sense mathematically.
22:52:45 <clsn> Just multiply the state matrices, it all works out...
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22:52:54 <Arnia> clsn: yes, but it is perfectly natural once you think in terms of categories
22:53:11 <glen_quagmire> Arnia: no i'm doing master's
22:53:20 <glen_quagmire> i thought about phd..but i thinkit's too hard
22:53:26 <clsn> So how does, say, superposition or entanglement work, then? Is it simple enough you could give it to me in a nutshell?
22:53:27 <Arnia> clsn: they went further and showed that an n-dimensional Hilbert space corresponds to an n-category
22:53:54 <clsn> I've started on a Ph.D. at least twice I think.
22:54:00 <Arnia> clsn: entanglement works thanks to the more general notion of 'truth' in a topos
22:54:45 <Arnia> clsn: superposition works through adjunctions (a weaker form of 'equivalence' of which Galois connections and inner products are a special case)
22:54:56 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: what are you doing your masters in?
22:55:21 <glen_quagmire> Arnia: MA in computer science. we don't specialize in.
22:55:31 <Arnia> Taught or research masters?
22:55:37 <glen_quagmire> taught
22:55:37 <clsn> Almost followed that, but don't know the jargon enough. Oh well.
22:55:46 <clsn> Yeah, I did a M.S. in computer science.
22:55:49 <glen_quagmire> take 10 classes and you get MA degree
22:56:05 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: uh... no dissertation requirement?
22:56:05 <clsn> Though Harvard for reasons known best to itself is pleased to call it a "S. M." degree.
22:56:05 <glen_quagmire> Master of Arts
22:56:13 <clsn> So I have a degree in S&M. Kinda.
22:56:26 <glen_quagmire> Arnia: nope.
22:56:30 <clsn> If there had been a dissertation requirement I'd probably never have gotten through that either.
22:56:40 <Arnia> Why does the US call science just 'S'? I can't help but giggle at 'BS' and 'MS'
22:56:51 <glen_quagmire> I need to take Master's Thesis, or Research Practicum
22:56:56 <clsn> I've taken coursework for Ph.D.s, just can't sit still long enough to finish a thesis.
22:57:16 <clsn> Yeah... the progression of degrees: BullShit, MoreShit, and PiledHigherandDeeper.
22:57:45 * Arnia blinks
22:57:52 <clsn> Since Columbia suffers from the same whatever as Harvard, my Bachelor's degree is officially called an "A. B." degree instead of a BA. Go figure.
22:57:58 <Arnia> Wait, are PhDs pure research degrees in the US?
22:57:59 <glen_quagmire> I have BA
22:58:15 * Arnia is BSc (hons) (dunelm) at the moment
22:58:39 <glen_quagmire> i think computer science PhD means you have to do thesis, and pass phd test, and take 20 classes
22:58:52 <clsn> Yeah, pretty much at most schools.
22:58:54 <glen_quagmire> and teach in college
22:58:55 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: weird...
22:59:06 <clsn> I had to take courses and write a thesis (the latter unfinished)
22:59:21 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: to get my PhD I have to write a thesis and defend it in a viva
22:59:30 <clsn> Yes, you have to defend your thesis too.
22:59:42 <glen_quagmire> oh maybe.. i dont know.. never enrolled in phd program
22:59:42 <clsn> Which I always envisioned involving automatic weaponry...
22:59:59 <clsn> You want to get at this thesis? You're gonna have to go THROUGH ME!!
23:00:00 <Arnia> clsn: that would be cool; shame it doesn't
23:00:09 <glen_quagmire> is it like a tv show where you're in the middle of the lecture hall and people point fingers at you and you have to justify?
23:00:29 *** leobard has quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
23:00:33 <clsn> Kinda. Depends how much the interviewers hate you.
23:00:57 <clsn> Ideally you try to pick folks who only mildly dislike you. And your family gets to watch you humiliate yourself.
23:01:10 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: no... in the UK you go into a little room with three of the leading experts in the field who then tear your work to pieces. It is very intimate.
23:01:21 <Arnia> clsn: ours aren't public, thank God.
23:01:56 <glen_quagmire> those interviewers are the professors you took classes with right?
23:02:04 <Arnia> No
23:02:05 <clsn> I could be wrong about that, actually.
23:02:15 <glen_quagmire> or are they from other schools? like American PhD Society of America?
23:02:25 <clsn> Usually they're teachers in the field, I thought,
23:02:25 <Arnia> They're whoever in the world is an expert in your field
23:02:36 <clsn> And aren't necessarily unbiased impartial observers.
23:02:51 <clsn> So you can get some sympathetic voices on the committee.
23:02:52 <Arnia> Well, typical structure is typically your supervisor, and one or two externals and internals to make up numbers
23:02:54 <glen_quagmire> oh so phd is really a serious business
23:03:04 <Arnia> Mine will be two externals since there is no one else in the department into my stuff
23:03:08 <glen_quagmire> i thought you work hard and take all the classes and you get phd
23:03:29 <glen_quagmire> man it's like American Idol
23:03:39 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: something like 70% non-completion rate typically
23:03:40 <glen_quagmire> and they pick on your voice and singing style
23:03:43 * Arnia nods to clsn
23:03:47 <clsn> If it was just taking the classes, I wouldn't be doing the angst dance about it here.
23:04:17 <Arnia> I'd hate to be taught during my PhD. Would demean me
23:05:03 <Arnia> The one thing that gives me some self-esteem about this is that it is all my own work and research.
23:05:03 <clsn> Usually you spend the first xx% of the time doing coursework, and then focus on the thesis.
23:05:22 <Arnia> That was also the only thing that got me through my third year (take two) :p
23:05:34 <Arnia> What sort of 'coursework' could you have?
23:05:59 <clsn> Advanced courses in computer science (or whatever), obv. not necessarily PRECISELY what you're working on.
23:06:36 <glen_quagmire> yah i think you have to take many courses in various fields for first 2 years and take a test and do thesis
23:06:54 <Arnia> we just... do research
23:07:00 <Arnia> From day one
23:07:00 <clsn> The details depend on your particular university.
23:07:26 <glen_quagmire> Arnia: can you do PhD right after Bachaelor's?
23:07:32 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: yes
23:07:34 <Arnia> I did
23:07:44 <Arnia> Most do in fact
23:07:58 <glen_quagmire> oh nice
23:08:08 <clsn> Often here you get a Master's somewhere along the line partway there, even if your goal is Ph.D.
23:08:20 <Arnia> But bachelors degrees here have a strong research component to them
23:08:43 <glen_quagmire> i go to one of the lowest school in america, academics wise
23:08:50 <clsn> You can also aim only for a Master's; my Master's degree wasn't part of a Ph.D. plan. My employer was paying for it anyway. :)
23:09:01 <Arnia> (or they should do... the government is encouraging making them 'more accessible' i.e. stupid)
23:09:09 <glen_quagmire> so, maybe better schools do it differntly
23:10:36 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: a bachelors here is three years (unless on an ERASMUS programme) from 18
23:10:49 <clsn> Here bachelor's is usually 4.
23:10:55 <glen_quagmire> usually bechelors is 4 yers
23:11:00 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: first year doesn't count, second counts one third, third counts two thirds
23:11:18 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: in your third year, one third of your time will be spent on your dissertation
23:11:49 <glen_quagmire> I got BA without doing any dissertation or presentation and no class discussion
23:12:05 <glen_quagmire> maybe some class discussions.. it's like high school
23:12:32 <glen_quagmire> it's like high school except girls are more mature
23:12:32 <perigrin> glen_quagmire, the US academic world is much less formal than the UK one
23:12:59 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: in Durham one does six modules a year, but usually without free choice (you may get a small selection of modules within your degree and department)
23:13:00 <glen_quagmire> i went to commuters college
23:13:19 <perigrin> Arnia, I think that's how y'all get away with 3 year BAs
23:13:23 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: you do typically (depending on degree) get a couple of 'electives' in your first year though
23:13:34 <perigrin> You've got a much more structured degree program ...
23:13:42 <glen_quagmire> i had to take all thouse liberal arts core in first 2 years
23:13:54 <perigrin> where as we have a 2 year liberal arts core and a 2 year concentration
23:14:00 <perigrin> with *many* electives.
23:14:01 <glen_quagmire> like, english, history, politics...etc
23:14:17 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: all modules run from teaching week one (first Thursday of October) to teaching week 19 (last friday of April)
23:14:22 <clsn> Different schools handle the "core" vs "electives" differently.
23:14:34 <Arnia> Exams are held in the last half of May
23:14:47 <clsn> Some have distribution requirements... some have hardly any requirements... some have specific classes that are required...
23:15:24 <Arnia> Results are published penultimate week of June. Any resits (for first and second years) are held in August.
23:15:24 <glen_quagmire> We hare usually 16 week semesters: Feb to May and final week
23:15:52 <glen_quagmire> Arnia: is it true only 1 person gets A+ per class?
23:16:55 <Arnia> The university runs in three terms for undergraduates; Michaelmas (October to December) which is (now) ten weeks long, Epiphany (January to March) which is 9 weeks and Easter (April to June) which is 9 weeks
23:17:22 <Arnia> Easter term though is basically three weeks of revision, three weeks of exams and three weeks of getting drunk waiting for results
23:17:36 <clsn> My brother did a year at Cambridge.
23:17:39 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: we don't have A+ or the like
23:18:03 <glen_quagmire> oh i see
23:18:13 <perigrin> Arnia, wait till you decimalize grades
23:18:47 <clsn> You see, twelve quizzes equal one test, and there are twenty tests in a semester, or twenty-one in a guinea....
23:19:00 <perigrin> clsn, exactly!
23:19:32 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: you technically don't get a 'grade' at all... I mean you're given a notional percentage (38% to 40% is ordinary pass, 40% to 50% is third-class, 50% to 60% is lower second class, 60% to 70% is upper second class and 70% or higher is first class) but you're not classified until the end
23:19:34 <glen_quagmire> for this semester, i 'm taking 3 classes. 2 classes have no exam!!!
23:20:01 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: I obtained an upper second class honours (also called a 'two-one') in Artificial Intelligence
23:20:33 <Arnia> If you fail a module (essentially, get less than 40%) then you get an ordinary degree. Fail more than one and you don't get anything
23:20:43 <Arnia> perigrin: I'll cry
23:21:30 <glen_quagmire> usually, we get A if you have total 90 points or more. B, 80 points or more...
23:21:34 <perigrin> part of new labour's americanisation of UK universities :)
23:21:37 <glen_quagmire> but professors curve the grades
23:21:39 <perigrin> or soon to be Americanization
23:21:57 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: Durham is the only university left (apart from Oxbridge which have a hideously confusing system of 'finals') which doesn't mark to a distribution
23:22:17 <Arnia> You can have years with no firsts, and years with twenty. Depends on how good the year is at the subject.
23:22:36 <Arnia> (actually I've never known a year with twenty firsts in a single degree...)
23:22:47 <Arnia> perigrin: makes me very very VERY angry that
23:23:03 <Arnia> perigrin: it is going to severely damage our higher education system
23:23:17 <perigrin> It's not doing wonderful things to *ours*
23:23:25 <glen_quagmire> american system is always right
23:23:28 * glen_quagmire hides
23:23:39 * Arnia just stares glen_quagmire into oblivion
23:23:42 <perigrin> glen_quagmire, I think you mean "to the right"
23:23:47 <Arnia> I AM TEH ABYSS
23:24:08 * perigrin stares into Arnia
23:24:09 <glen_quagmire> i tihnk in america, everything is graded, numerically evaluated, sorted, catalogued...even human beings
23:24:11 <perigrin> lolpipz, are you the abyss?
23:24:14 <lolpipz> perigrin: YEZ I AM TEH ONE AND ONLY ABYSZ.
23:24:17 * Arnia stares back
23:24:31 <Arnia> IMPOSTER
23:24:36 <perigrin> lolpipz, Arnia claims *he* is the abyss ...which of you is right?
23:24:37 <lolpipz> perigrin: WHEN AR TEH ARNIA CLAIMZ HE NOT TEH ABYSZ? TEH BLUE ONE, I THINK. KTHXBYE!
23:24:53 <perigrin> well he's teh oblivious at least
23:25:16 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: anyway, you're not really supposed to be taught at bachelors level
23:25:34 <Arnia> Rather, you're meant to be given contact hours as a support structure you hang your own learning off
23:25:39 <kpreid> heh heh
23:25:58 <Arnia> Although, again, this isn't considered 'accessible' enough for the 'consumers' who are paying to get a degree
23:26:01 <kpreid> #cia just got a random hacker kiddie, or possibly a parody thereof
23:26:23 <Arnia> Uh, sorry, that should have been 'paying for the privilege to get a degree' my error :p
23:26:30 <Arnia> kpreid: oh?
23:26:32 <kpreid> should send 'em over here!
23:26:34 <glen_quagmire> in most of classes i took, students got angry if the teacher gave a question not covered in the lectures
23:26:54 <kpreid> <N1ACT> I want to hack cia satelites, how?
23:27:04 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: that's sad and a sign of a crumbling education system
23:27:13 <Arnia> What happened to intellectual curiosity
23:27:27 <Arnia> kpreid: bring him hither
23:27:39 <glen_quagmire> it's for phd people, 1% of americans
23:28:09 <kpreid> Arnia: Naw, that's a little too much misrepresentation for my taste.
23:28:43 <Arnia> someone here may know how
23:28:58 <Arnia> maybe a lurker, or Monty
23:29:01 <Monty> esculent red CrustyGeek slaps fondling emphasising eugenics, apparently.
23:29:24 <Arnia> possibly not... although he'd do great in the Nazi party
23:29:57 * Arnia moves to Australia for a while :p
23:30:11 * Arnia transmits himself via a CIA satellite he's hacked :p
23:30:44 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: and what value does having a bachelors have in the US?
23:31:02 <perigrin> Arnia, it's becoming the minimum bar for White Collar jobs
23:31:12 <perigrin> s/becoming/has become/
23:31:33 <glen_quagmire> Arnia: many companies hire BA or higher only
23:31:50 <glen_quagmire> BA means you can use MS Word, MS Excel, and possibly MS PowerPoint
23:32:07 <perigrin> No, BA means you can use Word and they can teach you Excel
23:32:10 <xover> .gc "Bridge and Tunnell"
23:32:12 <phenny> "Bridge and Tunnell": 128
23:32:15 <glen_quagmire> i mean, there are so many colleges in US. of course if you go ot Hardvard or something, people look at you differently
23:32:26 <Arnia> Ok... and what level of education would you expect a BA or BSc graduate to have? Let us say within computer science; what would you expect them to know?
23:32:28 <clsn> It means you can be semi-domesticated and taught not to make messes on the floor.
23:33:15 <glen_quagmire> Arnia: in general, Java. but again, if you have degree from MIT or something.. you can work in google
23:33:42 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: ok, what did you learn?
23:34:04 <perigrin> Arnia, basic O notation ... algorithmics ... some discrete structures ... and a slight concentration in one or two subsets of Computing (language theory, machine learning, robitics, concurrency)
23:34:08 <glen_quagmire> I learned C++, and Java. and basic Calculus and Turing machines
23:34:37 <glen_quagmire> yah but all very shallow
23:34:43 <perigrin> glen_quagmire, I could get by without Calculus
23:34:44 <glen_quagmire> i never understood anything deeply
23:34:45 <perigrin> it was hard
23:35:00 <perigrin> but I got most of the way through ...
23:35:04 <glen_quagmire> i just saw patterns in exercises and got through exams
23:35:19 <glen_quagmire> i never did try to really understand until in Master's program
23:35:22 <clsn> Some graph theory
23:35:27 <clsn> data structures.
23:35:48 <perigrin> Data structures yeah ... I don't remember graph theory being in the undergraduate course work at UCF
23:36:17 <clsn> I did AI but it was a higher-level elective. And then the next year I was its T.A. :)
23:37:14 <glen_quagmire> http://www.cs.qc.edu/
23:37:18 <Arnia> I think our current degree structure isn't very good though. It is a tug-of-war between software engineering and computer science with the students in the middle
23:37:21 <clsn> I've taught first-year computer science a few times.
23:37:39 <Arnia> I used to teach Programming and Reasoning, Theory of Computation and Formal Aspects
23:38:03 <Arnia> Too many of our students expect our degree to be a programming degree, and they get annoyed by the computer science they are expected to do
23:38:17 <Arnia> Then the computer scientists get annoyed by the software engineering
23:38:24 <perigrin> Looks like *all* of your second year courses baring Advanced Java were Upper Level courses at UCF
23:39:46 <perigrin> Arnia, http://www.eecs.ucf.edu/undergrad/CS/BSdegree.php
23:39:48 <perigrin> there we go
23:40:25 <perigrin> section 2.2 covers the course requirements
23:40:31 <Arnia> The compulsory modules are; Programming and Data Structures, Formal Aspects of Computer Science, Computer Systems, every second year module (no choice) and then you can choose any four modules worth of third year modules
23:40:44 <perigrin> and looks like UCF has moved from Pascal to C ... which is nice
23:40:56 <Arnia> If you do two strands it counts as a single, all four and it counts as a double
23:41:11 <Arnia> If you do software engineering and project management you get a degree in software engineering
23:41:22 <Arnia> Otherwise your degree is in computer science
23:41:47 <Arnia> If you haven't done maths at A Level then you're strongly advised to take 'Foundations'
23:41:49 <glen_quagmire> i wish i learned lambda calculus in BA and some more theory
23:42:59 <glen_quagmire> well it all depends. if i went to a school with heavy emphasis on theory, i would probably be regretting not taking programming courses
23:43:36 <perigrin> glen_quagmire, I've found that theory is harder to "pick up" than languages
23:44:02 <Arnia> Otherwise, for your two electives in first year you can take anything which doesn't clash, but there are some common choices; discrete mathematics (first-year offering from maths), cognitive psychology, biological psychology, introduction to electronics, statistics I, core maths A, astronomy, chem A.
23:44:08 <Arnia> core chem A sorry
23:44:13 <glen_quagmire> perigrin: yah but maybe it is because you're just so trained well in programming. if you were trained in theories so much in college, you might think otherwise
23:44:39 <perigrin> glen_quagmire, well but that's my point ... I have a BA in English :)
23:44:50 <Arnia> Of course this doesn't describe joint honours (like Mathematics with Computer Science, or Computer Science with Psychology, etc.) which have their own rules as to what you take
23:44:57 <glen_quagmire> procto: oh i see
23:45:03 <perigrin> I've had to pick *both* of them up myself.
23:45:07 <perigrin> For the most part
23:45:46 <perigrin> Arnia, yeah ... the system is similar here but with a larger variance in what you can take ... and when
23:46:11 <glen_quagmire> when i took Psychology 101, i slept in class because i didn't understand english
23:46:17 <glen_quagmire> it was just way too sleepy
23:46:25 <Arnia> perigrin: UCF's courses don't look too bad albeit overly heavy in 'software' for my tastes
23:46:44 <perigrin> UCF is/was one of the better CS programs in Florida
23:46:50 <perigrin> afaict
23:46:56 <Arnia> Although I have no idea how these match up to years
23:47:13 <perigrin> basically the same ... 1 years are brand-new-to-college
23:47:27 <glen_quagmire> we call them freshmen
23:47:36 <glen_quagmire> but there are females too
23:47:38 <perigrin> they do too but their freshmen are younger than ours
23:47:39 <Arnia> I know THAT. I'm just wondering about modules
23:47:56 <perigrin> your modules are our courses ... I believe
23:47:58 <Arnia> Well, we call first years 'freshers' for the first couple of weeks
23:48:09 <Arnia> Then they're first years unless we're insulting them
23:48:18 <perigrin> the course numbers are roughly equivalent to the year they're oriented towards
23:48:23 <perigrin> 1xxx is a intro
23:48:26 <Arnia> Ok
23:48:27 <perigrin> 2xxx is a second level
23:48:38 <glen_quagmire> 3xxx is a third level
23:48:39 <perigrin> up through 5xxx which is a Masters and 6xxx which is PhD
23:48:40 <Arnia> 5?
23:48:43 <Arnia> Ah
23:49:03 <perigrin> I've taken exactly 1 5xxx course
23:49:10 <Arnia> Wait, operating systems is a 5xxx?
23:49:15 <perigrin> Yes
23:49:24 <perigrin> well no
23:49:28 <Talliesin> Ah yes. Shag a fresher week. Memories.
23:49:28 <Arnia> as are parallel and distributed systems?
23:49:30 <perigrin> COP 4600 Introduction to Operating Systems
23:49:42 <perigrin> Yes Parallel and Distributed were MA courses
23:49:44 <Arnia> 'Operating Systems Design Priniciples'
23:49:45 <glen_quagmire> in my school, undergrads and grads take same classes but graded differently
23:50:14 <perigrin> Arnia, yep that was a 5xxx course I'm pretty sure
23:50:18 <perigrin> I never took it ...
23:50:24 <Arnia> I find it weird that intro to discrete structures (basically a combination of the data structures bit of PDS and FA) is level 3
23:50:41 <perigrin> Well here's the thing to keep in mind
23:50:45 <Arnia> How do you do compsci without that?
23:51:05 <perigrin> roughly half (actually at UCF about 80%) of the student body attended a different university for the first two years
23:51:17 <perigrin> and didn't take a single Computer Science course
23:51:34 <perigrin> Most are on the 2 year plan sheet
23:51:36 * Arnia blinks
23:51:47 <Arnia> your system is... bizarre
23:51:52 <perigrin> yes
23:51:52 <Arnia> How do you learn anything?
23:51:56 <perigrin> Slowly :)
23:52:13 <perigrin> And for all intents and purposes on our own ... and I think accidentally
23:53:03 <perigrin> Florida has a very large and very strong system of Junior / Technical / Community colleges that cover a basic liberal arts education
23:53:22 <perigrin> that is officially the foundation of every BA in the state
23:53:46 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: how do you think the Durham compsci degree layout compares to yours?
23:53:58 <perigrin> Most states have a similar system ... with varying degree's of strength
23:54:32 <glen_quagmire> in my school it's like this: 1st year: 2 semesters of C++ (for loops to classes), 2 semesters of calculus, 1 discrete math, 1 physics/biology/chemestry. english 2nd year: datastructure (in Java), discrete structures (finite automata..etc), 1 physics/biology/chemestry. english, history.. 3rd year: operating systems, computer theory, computer language, electives.. 4th year: electives
23:55:16 <glen_quagmire> Arnia: Durham seems to be very theory oriented
23:55:30 <glen_quagmire> ours is for realworld job preparation
23:55:33 <Arnia> It is like my worst nightmare; the IB comes to the bachelors
23:55:43 <perigrin> IB?
23:55:57 <Arnia> perigrin: international bacheloriate
23:56:02 <Arnia> (or however you spell it)
23:56:03 <perigrin> That's what I thought
23:56:23 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: ours isn't theory oriented enough
23:56:42 <Arnia> There is far too little preparation for understanding the big concepts
23:56:59 <glen_quagmire> we only have 2 theory classes from computer science department
23:56:59 <perigrin> Arnia, Your students are told what they take when?
23:57:08 <Arnia> This is because, in my opinion at least, the degree isn't sure whether it is for software engineers or computer scientists
23:57:15 <Arnia> perigrin: yes
23:57:48 <perigrin> Arnia, ahh there's another difference ... so long as requirements are met you can take any course at any point at UCF
23:58:16 <Arnia> Typically you'll have two hours of lectures per module per week in first year compsci
23:58:18 <perigrin> some courses obviously require another course be taken first (or equivalent knowledge demonstrated to the professor/dean)
23:58:29 <Arnia> goes down each year though
23:59:00 <Arnia> US professor I take it ;)
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23:59:09 <perigrin> yes sorry
23:59:15 * Arnia finds the US academic grade system very weird itself
23:59:27 <Arnia> For some unknown reason Warwick has chosen to adopt it