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00:51:40 <Arnia> hm... tumbleweed time...
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01:15:45 <cr`x> Bumping up against the leading edge of Firefox's text rendering capabilities is an awfully frustrating way of life.
01:17:19 * Arnia adds shadows to cr`x
01:17:48 <cr`x> more like a whole other hexadecimal word!
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01:41:44 <Arnia> For those interested in cool applications of category theory: http://calculist.blogspot.com/2006/08/stack-is-context-zipper.html
01:42:32 <Arnia> and http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1666
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05:11:20 <Monty> hey patbam
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06:10:31 <pierpa> .weather lirf
06:10:34 <phenny> Cover Unknown, 9℃, 1018mb, N SC, Gentle breeze 7kt (↑) - LIRF, 7:20, 0620Z
06:10:51 <pierpa> .weather liml
06:10:54 <phenny> Overcast ☁, 5℃, 1019mb, Light Rain, Mist, Light air 1kt (↻) - LIML, 7:20, 0620Z
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06:14:06 <Mike_L> whee!
06:14:18 <Mike_L> .weather DNVR
06:14:20 <phenny> DNVR: no such ICAO code
06:14:34 <Mike_L> .g Denver ICAO code
06:14:37 <phenny> Mike_L: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_by_ICAO_code:_K
06:16:47 <Mike_L> .weather APA
06:18:46 <Mike_L> teh internets r quiet tonight
06:20:56 <bjoern_> It's not tonight. maybe that's the problem?
06:20:58 <phenny> bjoern_: 09 Nov 08:09Z <laplink> tell bjoern_ Happy iPhone Day! :-)
06:20:59 <bjoern_> .weather edfm
06:21:02 <phenny> Cloudy, 5℃, 1010mb, Light Rain, Mist, Light air 4km/h (2kt) (↑) - EDFM, 7:50, 0650Z
06:21:37 <bjoern_> Happy iPhone Day to you too laplink.....
06:21:45 <Mike_L> Happy Thanksgiving Holiday, USians!
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06:43:13 <bjoern_> "A British resident who is under surveillance for suspected terrorist activities is being prohibited from taking secondary-school-level science courses by the government, Nature has learned." - http://www.nature.com/news/2007/071121/full/450467a.html
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07:05:06 <sbp> yo
07:05:20 <xover> oy
07:05:47 <sbp> oh man, Arnia told timbl about the new WebKit thing
07:05:50 <sbp> 'ello xover
07:06:13 <xover> “the new WebKit thing”?
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07:06:34 <sbp> <Arnia> timbl_: out of curiosity, have you considered using the client-side storage API now in the WebKit nightlies (and I've heard Firefox 3) for Tabulator?
07:07:13 <sbp> -> http://webkit.org/misc/DatabaseExample.html
07:08:22 <bjoern_> What do you do with the Transfer-Encoding in HTTP/1.1 messages? And is there a difference between processing requests and responses?
07:08:23 <phenny> bjoern_: 07:50Z <sbp> tell bjoern_ <冗> I SEZ YO
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07:09:06 <bjoern_> It kinda seems it's processed with HTTP/1.1 semantics in requests and HTTP/1.0 semantics (none) in responses...
07:09:22 <sbp> I don't do anything
07:09:30 <bjoern_> (think HTTP/1.0 proxies forwarding HTTP/1.1 responses...)
07:09:38 <sbp> TO PAGE 143!
07:09:41 <bjoern_> But then of course I only checked Apache and Mozilla sources...
07:10:49 <sbp> it is so hop-by-hop
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07:11:20 <sbp> [[[
07:11:21 <sbp> The Transfer-Encoding general-header field indicates what (if any)
07:11:21 <sbp> type of transformation has been applied to the message body in order
07:11:21 <sbp> to safely transfer it between the sender and the recipient.
07:11:22 <sbp> ]]]
07:11:32 <sbp> I think it's 1.1 both ways
07:12:01 <sbp> all the other mentions generally talk about the message; nothing about direction
07:14:49 <bjoern_> But this is HTTP/1.0 where T-E should not be in at all!
07:15:12 <sbp> ô
07:15:23 <sbp> that's... sigh
07:15:34 <sbp> so you need another non-spec-specified fallback mechanism
07:15:48 <bjoern_> I just want to know the default really
07:15:55 <bjoern_> i.e. what everyone else does..
07:16:16 <sbp> presumably it'd be better to parse it whenever it appears, wouldn't it?
07:16:23 <sbp> from your parse liberal point of view, I mean
07:17:21 <bjoern_> Hmm, no, in responses that would be a bad idea if the body is not actually chunked
07:17:43 <bjoern_> most likely you'd have both T-E and Content-Length; in HTTP/1.1 you'd use the T-E then,
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07:17:56 <bjoern_> but with HTTP/1.0 I think Mozilla would ignore the T-E.
07:18:05 <bjoern_> perhaps I should make test cases...
07:18:22 <bjoern_> mod_asis ones
07:19:01 <sbp> ah, hence requests only
07:19:05 <bjoern_> them problem is though that you'd have to trick the client to make two ideally pipelined requests to be sure what's going on...
07:19:31 <bjoern_> and that's kinda difficult, especially if the client does not support that at all...
07:19:49 <bjoern_> ah but you should get the chunks in the content probably
07:19:57 <bjoern_> so here that might work
07:20:00 * bjoern_ codes
07:22:58 <sbp> " Vast jellyfish swarm wipes out N Ireland's only salmon farm
07:23:06 <sbp> " - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7106631.stm
07:23:54 <bjoern_> BAD Apache
07:24:01 <bjoern_> does not send it quite as is as it should.
07:24:22 <bjoern_> I guess nph cgis are no betteR?
07:25:30 <bjoern_> no, nph does what I want
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07:29:41 <Monty> hi jsled, how ya doing?
07:29:43 <phenny> Monty: shh, don't let anyone know you're around!
07:29:44 <Monty> loan == status;
07:30:18 <bjoern_> right, so, mozilla ignores the t-e, opera honors it, so does libwww-perl
07:30:29 <bjoern_> internet explorer does not like text/plain as file type!?
07:30:41 <bjoern_> Well not sure what's wrong there...
07:32:34 <bjoern_> Apparently there is rough consensus that the default be to treat it as in 1.1
07:43:14 <bjoern_> Hmm it kinda looks like Safari relies on the platform for much of its HTTP communication
07:43:39 <bjoern_> on Windows it seems to use the ancient WinINet to do it...
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08:37:21 <sbp> ooh, the authorship book arrived
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08:43:01 <sbp> it's a pretty book. I dipped into a few pages and it's full of inaccuracy
08:43:16 <sbp> but the usual interesting tidbits too
08:43:34 <sbp> it's almost like a soap opera. that period is the literary historian's soap opera
08:43:38 <bjoern_> aah managed to get Internet Explorer parse my chunked / 1.0 test
08:43:42 <bjoern_> it does what firefox does...
08:43:45 <sbp> well done
08:43:53 <bjoern_> Guess it was a caching problem
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08:44:15 <Monty> welcome, libby
08:44:19 <bjoern_> it had a type of httpd/send-as-is when I first tried it... appending a query string didn't help
08:44:43 <bjoern_> or something like that, actually, since this is the nph- script
08:44:54 <bjoern_> so something weird going on probably
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09:00:23 * sbp sends off comments on RDFa
09:01:04 <sbp> .title http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0062
09:01:07 <phenny> sbp: RDFa Bug: Media Type Section from Sean B. Palmer on 2007-11-22 (public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org from November 2007)
09:01:08 <sbp> .title http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Nov/0063
09:01:11 <phenny> sbp: RDFa RFE: No Mandated DOCTYPE from Sean B. Palmer on 2007-11-22 (public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org from November 2007)
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09:23:51 <Monty> lo libby
09:34:27 <kwijibo> which period is the literary historians soap opera?
09:34:46 <kwijibo> s/historian/historian's
09:35:51 <sbp> kwijibo: the Elizajacobean poets/wits circle
09:35:58 <sbp> circles, rather
09:36:16 <kwijibo> why soap opera?
09:36:49 <sbp> because many books have been written about it trying to eke out drama which in all likelihood didn't actually happen from the historical record
09:36:59 <Talliesin> Lots of who shagged whom, who killed whom, etc.
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09:37:10 <sbp> it's like an inkblot test for... shaggery and murdery, indeed
09:37:13 <kwijibo> fair dos
09:37:27 <sbp> shagblot test
09:38:01 <kwijibo> germain greer just did one on what she imagined shakespeare's wife might have been like didn't she
09:38:09 <sbp> yup!
09:38:22 <bjoern_> .gc wabbelig
09:38:25 <phenny> wabbelig: 28,600
09:38:30 <kwijibo> well, maybe it was a year or so ago, I don't really now
09:38:32 <kwijibo> *know
09:38:46 <Talliesin> "Can Will seduce the Dark Lady? Will she manage to keep his affections secret? Who else knows that Kitt is gay? Find out in next week's episode of 'THE GLOBE'"
09:38:57 <kwijibo> lol
09:39:07 <sbp> Amazon sez "Publisher: Bloomsbury Publishing PLC (3 Sep 2007)"
09:39:13 <sbp> Talliesin: ahahaha
09:39:13 <bjoern_> But why would a can seduce a lady?
09:39:31 <sbp> bjoern_: why not? mraw
09:40:01 <sbp> "The glaring omission of her name from Shakespeare's will has been gleefully used by many as evidence that she was nothing more than an ugly old wench whom William was shackled to after a thoughtless roll in the hay in his giddy youth." - from Amazon's synopsis (per the original?) of Greer's book
09:41:05 <Talliesin> Closest thing to a can seducing a lady I can recall from any literature is Can O' Beans (who is a hermaphrodite can of beans and pork) in /Skinny Legs and All/ by Tom Robbins. Doesn't quite go as far as seducing anyone though.
09:41:08 <kwijibo> she's a bit like that in Burgess's novel
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09:41:58 <bjoern_> Cans don't seem to seduce ladies without reason.
09:41:59 <kwijibo> (if not read much else in the way of shakespearen studies ;) )
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10:17:03 <bjoern_> javascript magic for sprintf "%0.2f"?
10:17:54 <bjoern_> is toFixed in ECMA?
10:18:30 <bjoern_> yes
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10:20:34 <sbp> hmm... you can't do disjunction of transforms in GRDDL
10:44:57 * bjoern_ gives Safari on Windows another go with the latest version
10:45:37 <bjoern_> Install, start Safari, wait while apple.com page finishes loading, go to address bar, type "www.w3.org" hit return, wait while it loads a bit, then it crashes.
10:46:02 <bjoern_> That's slightly better than the last version I tried.
10:47:59 <bjoern_> sbp btw http://www.cockos.com/assniffer/ is kinda similar to what I am up to
10:49:01 <bjoern_> looking at the source though mine would suck less...
10:53:46 <bjoern_> haha now the less resource using Firefox beta has its first problem
10:53:58 <bjoern_> it sucks a lot more resources! thanks to the google spyware.
10:58:30 <darobin> I'd hesitate before using an Ass Niffer from Cock OS
10:59:01 <bjoern_> You like the name though!
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11:16:19 <sbp> assniffer? ahahaha
11:16:24 <sbp> .wik Cock OS
11:16:32 <phenny> "This is part of the list of United Kingdom locations: a gazetteer of place names in the United Kingdom showing each place's local authority and geographical coordinates." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Co-Col
11:16:38 <sbp> hmm :-)
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11:18:46 <Monty> hey cre8radix
11:19:31 <cre8radix> hey Monty
11:19:31 <Monty> *py
11:19:36 <cre8radix> :D
11:41:19 <bjoern_> "If Enterprise had started with the final season, people would have looked much more favorably upon the series as a whole. Instead, viewers were first poisoned by the "temporal cold war," the Xindi, and most shamefully, time-traveling Nazi space aliens."
11:43:54 <bjoern_> "I don't think Voyager sucked THAT bad. At least they were trying to get somewhere."
11:45:06 <sbp> .title http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Nov/0056.html
11:45:14 <phenny> sbp: Best Practices Issue: RDF Format Discovery from Sean B. Palmer on 2007-11-22 (public-swd-wg@w3.org from November 2007)
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12:02:17 <bjoern_> [[[
12:02:27 <bjoern_> Garak: "Why is it no-one ever believes me, even when I'm telling the truth?"
12:02:27 <bjoern_> Julian: "Have you ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf?"
12:02:27 <bjoern_> Garak: "No!"
12:02:27 <bjoern_> Julian: "It's a children's story. A young shepard gets loney while tending his flock. He cries 'Wolf!' and the townspeople come rushing to his aid. When they discover there is no wolf, he claims he scared the wolf off, and they congratulate him for his bravery."
12:02:27 <bjoern_> Garak: "What a clever boy!"
12:02:29 <bjoern_> Julian: "There's more. The boy did the same thing the next day, and the day after, and the day after. And on the next day, when a wolf really did come, the townspeople didn't come. They'd gotten tired of his lying. The wolf ate all the sheep and the little boy."
12:02:33 <bjoern_> Garak: "Isn't that a bit gruesome for a children's story?"
12:02:35 <bjoern_> Julian: "The moral is that if you lie all the time, people won't believe you even if you're telling the truth."
12:02:38 <bjoern_> Garak: "Are you sure that's the moral?"
12:02:40 <bjoern_> Julian: "Of course. What else could it be?"
12:02:42 <bjoern_> Garak, leaving: "Never tell the same lie twice."
12:02:44 <bjoern_> ]]]
12:07:20 <bjoern_> .gc "It's Difficult to Stand on Both Feet, Isn't It"
12:07:22 <phenny> "It's Difficult to Stand on Both Feet, Isn't It": 384
12:15:51 <sbp> kwijibo: around still?
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13:09:02 <kwijibo> yes
13:09:11 <kwijibo> well - am now ;)
13:09:14 <sbp> tsk
13:09:18 <sbp> and now I'm not
13:09:21 <sbp> er wait, yes I am
13:09:22 <sbp> cool!
13:09:31 <sbp> I just wanted you to know that I looked at your replies to ISSUE-38
13:09:49 <sbp> on RDFa. I raised essentially the same point this morning before I found it in the bug tracker
13:10:00 <kwijibo> ah right
13:10:13 <kwijibo> yes I saw your posting over in swig
13:10:20 <sbp> I wondered if you'd mind a brief capsule explanation of your own proposal to them?
13:11:06 <kwijibo> hmm, I just thought it was a shame not to align their method of discovery with GRDDL really
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13:11:21 <Monty> yo JibberJim!
13:11:28 <sbp> well, if they use an @profile identifier...
13:11:28 <kwijibo> just to make things easier for people building tools
13:11:42 <sbp> then I presume that the @profile can be a GRDDL profile with associated transform
13:11:53 <kwijibo> yes
13:12:05 <sbp> (per section 5)
13:12:19 <kwijibo> like you, I thought the DTD method seemed a bit tricky for consumers
13:12:20 <sbp> so hopefully that might still be on...
13:12:24 <sbp> aye
13:12:30 <sbp> and DanC complained heavily about that
13:12:40 <kwijibo> but it seemed a bit of an ideological divide if I recall
13:12:42 <sbp> it looks like they'd conceded to make the @profile optional at least
13:12:47 <kwijibo> yes
13:12:47 <sbp> but they haven't even specified a value for it yet!
13:13:00 <sbp> http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa seems the obvious thing for them to ask for
13:13:17 <kwijibo> there were some kicking around a while ago, though they didn't work when I tried them :(
13:13:31 <sbp> ideological... indeed
13:13:40 <sbp> hmm. do you remember what they were?
13:13:46 <sbp> oh, transforms you mean?
13:14:04 <kwijibo> I think Ben and Mark's stance was that RDFa was actually part of HTML
13:14:19 <sbp> heh. hmm
13:14:29 <kwijibo> rather than a possible arbitrary use of attributes to denote triples
13:14:51 <kwijibo> therefore, the DTD was the natural flag for RDFa
13:15:31 <sbp> that would mean that you'd have to parse entire HTML documents from a Semantic Web user agent's perspective though
13:15:37 <kwijibo> I'm not sure of all the ins and outs with the various versions of HTML and XHTML
13:15:40 <kwijibo> yes
13:15:52 <kwijibo> I think that was another part of the divide
13:16:21 <kwijibo> Mark Birbeck seems keen on the idea that all HTML is RDFa, because you can infer triples from it
13:16:30 <sbp> yeah, I noticed that
13:16:39 <kwijibo> eg: document uri html:title "some title"
13:17:08 <sbp> I think that's conflating the message with the transport, but I'm not sure
13:17:16 <sbp> so, for example, you can represent the HTTP request in RDF too
13:17:31 <kwijibo> my opinion, as a document author, was that I wanted to be specific about what triples you were expressing
13:17:34 <kwijibo> yes
13:17:45 <sbp> but you tend not to say that the author is asserting all that crap
13:17:46 <kwijibo> it's a bit arbitrary where you stop
13:17:50 <sbp> yeah
13:18:02 <sbp> wanted to be specific: agreed
13:18:04 <kwijibo> you could express the whole DOM structure as RDF too
13:18:09 <sbp> i.e. that's what I want too
13:18:16 <sbp> right. there is the XML Infoset in RDF
13:18:20 <kwijibo> I also thought that if you were a consumer
13:18:36 <sbp> yeah, which was my point on the list of course
13:18:49 <kwijibo> and you wanted to infer triples like ?x html:title "some title"
13:18:53 <sbp> avec consumer chapeux
13:18:56 <kwijibo> then you can do that anyway
13:19:04 <sbp> oh, right
13:19:04 <kwijibo> it doesn't need to be built into RDFa
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13:19:16 <sbp> yes, that's the kinda stuff you can get with extra hinting
13:19:17 <kwijibo> lol
13:19:22 <sbp> it comes down to my Graph(...) case, realy
13:19:33 <sbp> if you do Graph(uri) in an SWUA, what do you get out of it?
13:19:51 <sbp> sure you can add extra stuff like Graph(uri, infoset=True) to e.g. get an infoset-in-rdf representation...
13:20:04 <sbp> but as you say, the line for all this isn't very clear
13:20:07 <sbp> and I think it should be made clear!
13:20:17 <sbp> did you see that I wrote to the SW Deployment WG?
13:20:22 <sbp> I think this is within their remit to handle
13:20:33 <kwijibo> I'm not sure
13:20:39 <kwijibo> got a link?
13:20:54 <sbp> .title http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Nov/0056
13:20:57 <phenny> sbp: Best Practices Issue: RDF Format Discovery from Sean B. Palmer on 2007-11-22 (public-swd-wg@w3.org from November 2007)
13:21:00 <sbp> that
13:21:37 <kwijibo> yes I agree with that
13:22:38 <kwijibo> my worry is that if things like that aren't basically clear, the information you publish might not be clear
13:23:27 <kwijibo> which seems a really important thing
13:23:30 * sbp nods
13:24:00 <sbp> it also means you don't know whether to complain or not when a tool doesn't support your document! :-)
13:24:10 <kwijibo> yes
13:24:27 <sbp> and indeed what format to use. what tools support what formats... (hence my idea of a vocab to express it)
13:24:49 <kwijibo> that's one thing that I found odd about GRDDL (last time I looked anyway)
13:25:03 <sbp> oh?
13:25:09 <kwijibo> it doesn't mandate what format to return RDF in
13:25:17 <kwijibo> (last time I looked anway)
13:25:20 <sbp> heh, yes. that's very annoying
13:25:22 <sbp> it's the same now
13:25:31 <kwijibo> so as a consumer you don't know what parser you need
13:25:31 <sbp> the GRDDL Test Cases rec has an example in it
13:25:34 <sbp> right
13:25:44 <sbp> so there's an XSLT stylesheet which returns text/rdf+n3...
13:25:57 <sbp> and I'm like, well how the arse are you supposed to know that?
13:26:02 <kwijibo> :(
13:26:07 <sbp> xsltproc won't tell you the output type
13:26:13 <sbp> libxslt won't either, as far as I know
13:26:24 <sbp> so you have to look for <xsl:output ... /> in the input before parsing
13:26:39 <sbp> there's another problem too
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13:26:49 <sbp> imagine you have a dialect, say hReview
13:26:54 <sbp> and you have three stylesheets for it
13:26:54 <kwijibo> even if you could know ... how many different parsers are you expected to have in your toolkit?
13:27:02 <kwijibo> right
13:27:03 <sbp> an XSLT 1 one, an XSLT 2 one, and an XQuery one
13:27:14 <sbp> and say, an XSLT 1 RDF/XML and an XSLT N3 and so on one...
13:27:23 <sbp> the problem is that you can't specify disjunction in GRDDL
13:27:28 <sbp> so if you specify all the transforms...
13:27:36 <sbp> the GRDDL user agent can't know that they're actually *alternatives*
13:27:45 <sbp> so it would technically have to apply all of them and merge the results
13:27:53 <sbp> which, if you use bnodes, means massively redundant output
13:27:59 <kwijibo> :/
13:28:04 <sbp> neato, eh?
13:28:12 <kwijibo> nasty
13:28:14 <sbp> the more I think about GRDDL, the less I like it
13:28:40 <kwijibo> in principle I like the idea
13:28:48 <kwijibo> but I worry about details like that
13:28:49 <sbp> yeah, some of it is fine
13:28:51 <sbp> but... right
13:29:05 <sbp> a bit half baked in important areas
13:29:19 <darobin> but hey, it went "fast"!
13:29:23 <sbp> darobin: hehe
13:29:38 <sbp> kwijibo: note also that the specification is unclear which processing rules you have to apply when
13:29:45 <sbp> as I found out when I implemented it the other day
13:29:53 <sbp> I think the only formal specification of the order is in the N3
13:30:06 <sbp> because the user-agent section is wrong. it omits the fact that you have to reapply some of the rules
13:30:25 <kwijibo> sometimes it seems as if there's a bit of an attitude of we want lots of triples because that would be exciting ... rather than we want the right triples that mean the right things
13:30:35 <sbp> perhaps there is some wording in there somewhere that indicates it, but it's at least not clear. the RDF/XML specification is way better
13:30:41 <sbp> heh, indeed
13:30:52 <sbp> plus the fact that nobody can agree on the best way to represent things
13:31:01 <sbp> so the solution has seemed to be: allow anybody to do anything!
13:31:10 <sbp> (and sod the poor bastards who have to implement it)
13:31:16 <kwijibo> :(
13:31:31 <sbp> the really ironic thing is that ISSUE-28 was raised by DanC
13:31:35 <sbp> I can't believe how ironic that is
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13:31:54 <sbp> GRDDL has the biggest follow-your-nose problem of anything
13:32:23 <sbp> in that it does let you follow-your-nose but the process for doing so is computationally and network expensive!
13:32:24 <kwijibo> lol
13:32:53 <kwijibo> hmm I don't think you have to follow-your-nose every time do you?
13:33:03 <kwijibo> (maybe that is one of the things that isn't clear!)
13:33:35 <sbp> well... what the user-agent conformance section says is that you *should* do the following, and then it lists all of the processing steps, so the namespace checks and the profile transformations and so on
13:33:54 <sbp> so that means every time you process a GRDDL document, a conforming GRDDL user agent should, e.g., check the XHTML namespace
13:34:03 <kwijibo> :/
13:34:03 <sbp> but it's a should, at least
13:34:20 <sbp> so I think this means we might be able to weasel out. that's why I proposed the SW Deployment WG do
13:34:29 <sbp> basically say what is reasonable for UAs to do
13:34:52 <sbp> effectively define a new conformance class, or set of conformance classes, for GRDDL user agents
13:35:11 <kwijibo> I was labouring under the impression that a UA could simply recognise the RDFa profile value and the do it's stuff
13:35:24 <sbp> ah, yes, it may do that
13:35:34 <kwijibo> *its
13:35:36 <sbp> you can also build-in transformations
13:35:52 <sbp> so one thing that the conformance vocab that I suggested should be able to do is capture that
13:36:25 <sbp> the thing, of course, is that you can't expect user agents to do that
13:36:25 <kwijibo> " say what is reasonable for UAs to do" I think that's really important
13:36:28 <sbp> it's only a MAY
13:36:32 <sbp> aye
13:36:54 <sbp> it gives UA authors reasonable goals to shoot for
13:37:02 <sbp> so hopefully we can have shared test cases for it and so on
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13:37:09 <kwijibo> all other ideological divides and reasonings aside - you should know that what you are saying will be understood
13:37:30 <sbp> how do you mean? (heh, not trying to make a joke there)
13:38:18 <kwijibo> like, if I publish an rdf in html document, I want to know that (all good) consumers will infer the triples I intend
13:38:22 <sbp> aye
13:38:32 <kwijibo> and they can infer more triples if they like
13:38:57 <sbp> it'd also be cool if you knew exactly what user agents did what things
13:39:02 <sbp> descriptively speaking, in actual practice
13:39:12 <kwijibo> but you don't want them to ignore or misinterpret anything you think is important
13:39:27 <kwijibo> yeah
13:40:55 <kwijibo> are there many rdf-in-html agents out there (I haven't paid so much attention lately)
13:41:03 <kwijibo> ?
13:41:05 <sbp> well, there are 4 or 5 GRDDL agents at least
13:41:10 <sbp> actually 5 or 6 now that I wrote one
13:41:31 <sbp> and there are quite a surprisingly large number of implementations of RDFa!
13:41:37 <sbp> many more than GRDDL
13:42:10 <kwijibo> web services? and/or downloadable applications?
13:42:25 <kwijibo> hmm - but how uptodate are all the RDFa ones?
13:42:29 <sbp> I count 15 services and/or downloadables
13:42:30 <sbp> on http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#head-681001ee6c73e87bd692e29693b3904e462fd9f2
13:42:46 <sbp> the 4 or 5 GRDDL implementations are at http://esw.w3.org/topic/GrddlImplementations
13:42:53 <sbp> how up to date... not sure
13:43:22 <kwijibo> the RDFa rules have been in flux
13:44:27 <sbp> yeah, I noticed the spec seemed a bit unstable
13:44:41 <sbp> and I went looking for an RDFa example earlier today...
13:44:47 <sbp> and the first two results on Google were both invalid!
13:45:06 <kwijibo> I'll bet!
13:45:58 <kwijibo> I did something with RDFa a while back and wasted a bit of time trying to use RDFa from some test cases that turned out to be out of date
13:46:11 <sbp> d'oh
13:46:29 <sbp> the problem is that people don't tend to update the statuses of old material...
13:46:51 <kwijibo> yeah - and you don't always find the new stuff first
13:47:03 <sbp> yeah... old stuff being more heavily linked to and so on
13:47:07 <sbp> here's a good example:
13:47:10 <sbp> .g grddl
13:47:12 <phenny> sbp: http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec
13:47:29 <sbp> "W3C Proposed Recommendation 6 July 2007 [@@PUBFIX not yet]"
13:48:05 <sbp> phenny: ask DanC if http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec (top result on google for GRDDL) could be redirected to http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/
13:48:07 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when danc is around.
13:48:21 <kwijibo> :/
13:48:48 <kwijibo> someone was writing a pure javascript GRDDL client - DanC I think?
13:48:56 <sbp> yeah, he was
13:49:01 <kwijibo> did he get anywhere with it?
13:49:04 <sbp> not sure how ... heh
13:49:05 <sbp> dunno
13:49:16 <sbp> it got mentioned just the other day by timbl, I think
13:49:22 <sbp> and I don't think he knew where it was up to either
13:49:47 <kwijibo> perhaps held back by the state of in-browser xslt implementations
13:50:48 <sbp> I added "Dan Connolly's mysterious Javascript implementation." to http://esw.w3.org/topic/GrddlImplementations
13:50:50 <sbp> yeah, possibly
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14:00:59 *** therethinke1 changed the topic to: "Happy Massasoit's head-on-a-pole day!"
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14:09:47 <Arnia> Huh... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapjax
14:09:54 <Arnia> FRP for Javascript
14:12:59 <therethinke1> Cool
14:13:54 <therethinke1> I don't like reactive programming, though
14:14:00 <therethinke1> it hurts mai head :P
14:17:03 <therethinke1> ...and makes me talk like that
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14:29:05 <sbp> Arnia is all metaphorical thumbs
14:29:23 <Arnia> Indeed
14:29:32 <Arnia> I can do tricks with them *demonstrates*
14:29:33 <sbp> hehe
14:29:40 <sbp> freaky
14:29:51 <sbp> did you see the ISSUE-38 stuff?
14:29:59 *** therethinker (n=zach@c-76-24-122-94.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
14:30:09 <sbp> I'm also arsing about with datatypes, but have basically failed there
14:30:14 <Arnia> Briefly... I'm reading up something else at the moment. I'll return to it shortly
14:30:21 <sbp> okey-doke
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14:35:07 <sbp> hmm
14:35:14 <sbp> I was gonna have phenny reply with a unicode gold donut
14:35:22 <sbp> but I failed to find something donut-like enough
14:35:26 <sbp> for gold there was either...
14:35:31 <sbp> .unicode sun
14:35:32 <sbp> .unicode gold
14:35:34 <phenny> U+2609 SUN (☉)
14:35:34 <phenny> U+2FA6 KANGXI RADICAL GOLD (⾦)
14:35:38 <sbp> but...
14:35:41 <sbp> .unicode torus
14:35:44 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for "TORUS".
14:35:46 <sbp> .unicode ring
14:35:49 <phenny> U+02DA RING ABOVE (˚)
14:35:54 <sbp> .unicode com ring
14:35:58 <phenny> U+030A COMBINING RING ABOVE (◌̊)
14:36:03 <sbp> might work!
14:37:58 <clsn> .unicode circle ring
14:38:00 <phenny> U+229A CIRCLED RING OPERATOR (⊚)
14:38:58 * Arnia stares
14:40:58 <Arnia> Ok... read over the discussion you had on GRDDL
14:41:04 <Arnia> (and RDFa)
14:42:16 <sbp> clsn: ooh, that's a pretty good one. thanks!
14:42:21 <sbp> Arnia: ah, great!
14:42:38 <sbp> it gets ever more perplexing the more I think about it
14:42:41 <Arnia> My perspective is that producers should assume a 'sensible' user-agent (where sensible may be defined as 'like me') and consumers should go out for all the information they can get (as long as conceptual spaces may be represented to avoid a mess of noise)
14:42:54 <Arnia> How that renders into a solution, I haven't a clue
14:42:57 <sbp> the GRDDL applied to an RDF/XML document is an awesome case
14:43:00 <Arnia> But I'm a theorist
14:43:07 <sbp> hmm
14:43:27 <sbp> the problem with going for all the information you can get is that computationally that might be very, very expensive
14:43:44 <sbp> which is why I've been thinking about the sensible user-agent idea
14:44:12 <sbp> producers expecting sensible UAs, and consumers always trying to be sensible UAs
14:44:19 <Arnia> What about having lazy information retrieval?
14:44:49 <Arnia> So they can virtually go all out, but in practice only those things they touch get handled
14:44:49 <sbp> I don't think that'd work in practice. there's nothing to be lazy about
14:44:59 <Arnia> Lazy graph models exist
14:45:15 <sbp> ooh, I see. lazy at that level... hmm
14:45:19 <sbp> well I think even then it wouldn't work
14:45:28 * Arnia reiterates his current view that WebArch is broken
14:45:28 <sbp> consider DanC publishing his travel schedule
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14:45:57 <sbp> one day he uses GRDDL + some hThing, next day he's using GRDDL Profile, then he switches to RDFa for an experiment, then he uses GRDDL + XSLT 2.0, then GRDDL + XQuery...
14:46:23 <sbp> you can't be lazy about it when you want the data
14:46:54 <sbp> when you query "?x a Person; foaf:name ?name" on DanC's travel schedule, you want an answer; and in that case you've got to deploy all of GRDDL, all of RDFa, all of eRDF, all of...
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14:47:59 <Arnia> Ok, what about magic content type detection and the use of a planning algorithm to form the shortest transformer chain to get from the input content type to RDF-MT
14:48:35 <Arnia> (by 'magic content type detection' I mean a fall-over chain of detection techniques from explicit flagging to statistical techniques all designed to be bloody fast)
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14:49:52 <sbp> the shortest chain...
14:50:00 <sbp> now there's an idea... shortest chain wins...
14:50:33 <sbp> GRDDL doesn't really allow that, of course
14:50:39 <sbp> but the point here is rather to fix GRDDL
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14:50:41 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's Xanthor[aw]!
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14:52:39 <Monty> hey chimezie
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15:16:16 <Arnia> "Yes, you need to actually make an inference to realize we said that - we did assume our readers would have a modicum of intelligence." -- http://www.mindswap.org/blog/2007/11/21/shirkyng-my-responsibility/
15:19:36 <Arnia> Woo, danbri has the sense he was born with: http://danbri.org/words/2007/11/22/230
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15:22:18 <sbp> bwahahaha at the ps.
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15:24:09 <thelsdj> sbp: did you get a chance to add that other meteo location?
15:25:39 <sbp> oh, nope, sorry... it is noted though
15:25:50 <sbp> I only just got around to publishing the schema today. heh
15:26:02 <Arnia> sbp: well, to be fair, in the UK pretty much everything else has sexual connotations
15:26:07 <sbp> yeah
15:28:46 <KragenSitaker> hey, those cigarettes --- could you toss me one?
15:29:02 <sbp> Arnia: comedy supreme
15:29:17 <sbp> cigarettes?
15:29:45 <Arnia> Isn't that where you ejaculate over a girl's face without her realising you're going to do it and then smear it around?
15:29:52 * Arnia ducks
15:30:03 <sbp> ...hehe
15:30:29 <sbp> also what the fuck, but mainly hehe
15:31:15 <Arnia> http://developer.imendio.com/taxonomy/term/20/0
15:31:50 * sbp enquires again of KragenSitaker his meaning
15:32:21 <KragenSitaker> sbp: it's my vague memory of an utterance that embarrassed a FOAF visiting England
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15:32:42 <KragenSitaker> apparently "could you toss me one?" has a UK-specific sexual meaning
15:33:08 <KragenSitaker> but perhaps I have misremembered the phrasing?
15:33:28 <Arnia> Could you toss me off?
15:33:53 <Arnia> Not that I'm asking; I'm not that forward
15:34:06 <Arnia> Wait, no, I am... uh... I'm not that forward to people over IRC
15:34:16 <sbp> not today, at least
15:35:00 <sbp> KragenSitaker: it's probably less embarrassing than "toss me a fag" in the US
15:35:18 <KragenSitaker> no, that would just mean to find a gay man and throw him at you
15:35:26 <sbp> oh. hehe
15:35:38 <KragenSitaker> a bizarre request, to be sure
15:36:00 * Arnia offers himself for service
15:36:19 <KragenSitaker> I don't think they could have been asking to be tossed off --- perhaps if the context had been base jumping or trapeze artist training, that would make sense
15:36:32 <sbp> what have you been eating? if it's something soft, DO YOUR WORST
15:36:36 <KragenSitaker> but no, he simply wanted someone to toss him a cigarette at a table
15:36:40 <sbp> (eek, actually, don't! not the book!)
15:37:02 * Arnia lobs said Book at sbp and it hits him square between the eyes
15:37:10 <KragenSitaker> ow
15:37:11 <sbp> oughth
15:37:30 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: well, he could of course meant being tossed off
15:37:51 <sbp> produce a cigarette by tossing it is a possibility...
15:38:05 <sbp> but "toss me one" in general doesn't seem to be used all that often
15:38:08 <KragenSitaker> "toss it to me"?
15:38:14 <sbp> because people don't in general toss to create things
15:38:16 <sbp> except messes
15:38:31 <sbp> no, I mean, in the sexual way
15:38:35 <sbp> so you wouldn't generally conflate it
15:38:45 <sbp> toss it to me wouldn't be used sexually at all
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15:39:09 <KragenSitaker> hmm, i'll have to give up on reconstructing it, I guess
15:39:33 <sbp> got the gist, at least
15:40:10 <sbp> I should write to semantic-web about this triples thing
15:41:43 <Arnia> meh... will they listen?
15:47:24 <sbp> probably not, no
15:47:26 <sbp> but I'll give it a shot
15:47:57 <sbp> sometimes I say stuff and it only transpires months later that someone actually did listen and take it on board, but kept silent
15:48:42 <Arnia> hm
15:54:17 <Arnia> wrt inkscape:Cocoa, just looked through the SVN repo
15:54:19 <Arnia> GAH
15:54:27 <Arnia> Yep, that's my response
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15:57:10 * Arnia continues to agonise over which ebook reader to get
15:57:34 <KragenSitaker> you should get the one with the most onerous DRM so you can tell us all how great it is
15:57:45 <cr`x> there's really just two, aren't there?
15:57:54 <cr`x> i had the sony 500 , until it broke.
15:58:09 <cr`x> oh yeah, there's also the hellishly expensive one. the iliad, or what is it.
15:58:13 <jsled> 3, I think. iRex. Libre. Kindle. right?
15:58:19 <KragenSitaker> palmpilot
15:58:27 <Arnia> I'm thinking of getting the iLiad
15:58:34 <clsn> Was reading up on the kindle last night, following a screed on a blog.
15:58:37 <jsled> Also, I found my nokia 770 works fine. And I could consider using my blackberry 8130.
15:58:48 <jsled> But only for short things.
15:58:55 <KragenSitaker> oh yeah, nokia 770 and n800
15:58:59 <KragenSitaker> zaurus
15:59:04 <cr`x> yeah, the whole appeal is the E-Ink, though
15:59:06 <jsled> I think the nokia is the minimum for reading anything long.
15:59:11 <cr`x> without that it's just an oversized PDA
15:59:18 <Arnia> My needs; must use eInk (my eyes are getting damaged by reading all day on a laptop or phone)
15:59:22 <clsn> On one hand, yeah, DRM can be evil. OTOH, so can no-DRM.
15:59:25 <Arnia> must allow scribbling over the text
15:59:31 <clsn> Yeah, I'm really curious about the e-ink thing.
15:59:33 <jsled> as in: it has the necessary dpi, and just crosses the threshold for screen real-estate.
15:59:48 <jsled> the backlighting is nice for planes/bed, too.
15:59:49 <KragenSitaker> clsn: how can "no-DRM" be "evil"? We've had no-DRM for centuries.
15:59:49 <clsn> I bet the XO (OLPC) would be a good ebook reader.
16:00:05 <clsn> Yes, I know. And "evil" is an exaggeration.
16:00:12 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: how can genocide be evil? We've had genocide for centuries
16:00:18 <KragenSitaker> Are you arguing that we've been doing evil by having rights like first sale?
16:00:41 <Arnia> I'm not... but it is a perspective is it not?
16:00:42 <clsn> but it IS reasonably that publishers and authors have a hard time accepting selling material that can be trivially copied and given away.
16:00:46 <cr`x> eink is lovely
16:00:57 <Arnia> Also, the device must have a large screen
16:01:12 <clsn> To be sure, we've have photocopiers for a while.
16:01:14 <KragenSitaker> clsn: DRM doesn't change that
16:01:17 <Arnia> I have lots of A4 formatted articles I have to be able to easily read
16:01:42 <clsn> Um, isn't that what DRM is supposed to do? If it fails to do it, that's another matter, but that is its goal.
16:01:57 <KragenSitaker> yes, of course that's what it's supposed to do, but it always fails to do it.
16:02:31 <clsn> Yeah, but that's neither here nor there. You can't blame them for TRYING, at least, to keep people from "stealing the stock," as they perceive it.
16:02:35 <KragenSitaker> Yes, you can.
16:02:49 <KragenSitaker> Because it doesn't achieve what they say they're trying to achieve, and it never will, and it has a lot of other bad effects.
16:02:57 <Arnia> In fact, they have a legal responsibility to try
16:03:04 <Arnia> Being corporations
16:03:13 <clsn> Conversely, there are business models that seem to be working that involve letting the information be freely copiable. But they're new and not all that tested, and I can't blame them for not trusting them much either.
16:03:47 <Arnia> also arguments that something 'will never work' tend to be hard to justify
16:03:53 <KragenSitaker> It injures the readers' traditional rights under copyright --- to keep copies of their books, to give them to their friends, and in many cases to be authors.
16:04:00 <clsn> Also, here the publisher and the author are at odds. The publisher WANTS BOOKS TO SELL. That's all he cares about. One person buying a hundred books, a hundred people buying one book each, it's all the same.
16:04:09 <Arnia> It is possible, but a lot harder than most people actually bother to do
16:04:16 <KragenSitaker> Arnia: that's an argument against DRM, not for it.
16:04:34 <clsn> The author would rather more people read the book. Even if that means not selling that many. Because maybe they'll buy the next one.
16:04:34 <KragenSitaker> As long as it's possible, the work becomes available on the black market.
16:04:42 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: actually, your argument was basically a 'will not work ever' argument
16:04:44 <cre8radix> copycan
16:04:44 <sbp> .title http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2007Nov/0143
16:04:47 <phenny> sbp: Semantic Web User Agent Conformance from Sean B. Palmer on 2007-11-22 (semantic-web@w3.org from November 2007)
16:04:47 <KragenSitaker> As long as it's hard, ordinary readers can't effectively use their traditional rights under copyright.
16:05:00 <clsn> "Gee, I liked that author." You don't often think "Wow, that was a great book, I wonder what else this publisher published?"
16:05:10 <KragenSitaker> So "possible but hard" means you get the worst of both worlds: none of the putative benefits of DRM, and all of its drawbacks.
16:05:23 <Arnia> Rights are only useful as long as they lead to positive effects (generally, just stopping an uprising)
16:05:44 <Arnia> There is no universal morality to justify rights in an absolute sense
16:06:00 <clsn> Certainly DRM is a problem in stepping on traditional rights of the reader. But non-DRM steps on the traditional rights of the publisher/author, not to have his work distributed for free without his permission.
16:06:13 <clsn> And there isn't any middle-ground, really.
16:06:26 <cre8radix> DRM=Digital Restrictions Management
16:06:35 * Arnia deletes cre8radix
16:06:39 <cre8radix> hrhr
16:06:48 <cre8radix> it sux
16:07:00 <cre8radix> it's control freak mentality
16:07:01 <jsled> what a construtive argument.
16:07:02 <clsn> DRM also entails other related evils (privacy violations, etc), but those are ancillary considerations.
16:07:04 <KragenSitaker> clsn: the traditional rights of the publisher and author are to profit from having their work distributed.
16:07:13 <KragenSitaker> not to control its distribution.
16:07:19 <jsled> hmm. There's no right to profit.
16:07:31 <clsn> Actually, no, they traditionally got to control the distribution, at least to first sale.
16:07:31 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: actually, they are to control its distribution. The profit is secondary
16:07:43 <KragenSitaker> jsled: that's how it's phrased in the US Constitution; of course British law is a little different.
16:07:55 * cre8radix wonders why many artists in brazil become well-known without traditional copyright enforcement
16:07:55 <KragenSitaker> clsn: only as a means to getting the profits.
16:08:09 * sbp restores cre8radix from backuo
16:08:13 <sbp> ...backup, even
16:08:25 <clsn> The fact that DRM prevents people from selling what they bought is, indeed, one of many suckages of DRM. But the right of the publisher to control distribution isn't negligeable either.
16:08:26 <Arnia> cre8radix: that's a shoddy argument. You'd need to do a hellish statistical analysis to derive any useful points
16:08:51 <KragenSitaker> With regard to "will never work."
16:09:00 <clsn> And I hear Baen Books is doing good things with non-DRMing its texts. But it's a new business model.
16:09:01 * cre8radix used to be a member of the german collecting society GEMA
16:09:08 <Arnia> If you quote defective by design at me I'll throw the book at you
16:09:11 <clsn> I'm being called off. Bye!
16:09:15 <KragenSitaker> Hundreds of the smartest computer scientists in the world spend years devising new DRM schemes.
16:09:28 <cre8radix> but i think that culture is for everybody
16:09:28 * Arnia shakes it vigourously
16:09:37 <KragenSitaker> Once they are released, teenagers spend days breaking them.
16:09:45 <KragenSitaker> By themselves.
16:09:52 <cre8radix> sounds good to me
16:09:53 <KragenSitaker> Every time.
16:09:54 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: and there are plenty of other technologies which are cat and mouse in nature
16:10:19 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: remember, the aim isn't to stop *everyone* but rather to dissuade the vast majority
16:10:23 <KragenSitaker> This is my basis for claiming that it will never work, any time in the foreseeable future.
16:10:38 <cre8radix> if it's out it's free
16:10:39 <KragenSitaker> No, dissuading the vast majority completely fails to achieve the stated goals of DRM.
16:10:52 <Arnia> You might as well say that cryptography or computer security are defective by design
16:11:04 <KragenSitaker> Even one copy that gets the copy protection removed is sufficient to allow everyone to get the work for free.
16:11:14 <Arnia> (which, by this argument, they are)
16:11:17 <cre8radix> great, isn't it?
16:11:28 <KragenSitaker> Dissuading the vast majority simply undermines the freedom of communication that is fundamental to an open society.
16:11:38 <Arnia> Timescales are longer, but the breaking is less obvious (people don't crow as much about it if they want to avoid prison)
16:12:04 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: I wouldn't say it IS sufficient
16:12:10 * cre8radix remembers the copy kills music campain
16:12:16 <cre8radix> ROFL
16:12:18 <cre8radix> right
16:12:22 <cre8radix> hrhr
16:12:34 <cre8radix> they wish
16:12:41 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: and please demonstrate the causal link between freedom of communication and whatever this 'open society' malarky is
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16:12:58 * Arnia just stares at cre8radix
16:13:11 *** lisppaste2 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #swhack
16:13:27 <cre8radix> O_o
16:13:40 <KragenSitaker> Arnia: that causal link is outside the scope of this argument; your failure to recognize it simply places you outside the scope of intelligent debate.
16:13:55 * cre8radix wants to destroy copyright
16:14:10 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: oddly, I'd say the same thing about you for the opposite ;)
16:14:24 <KragenSitaker> Now, perhaps the aim really isn't to stop everyone, but rather to dissuade the vast majority, say, to prevent competition in music-player markets. But that's a conspiracy theory I'm not willing to subscribe to at this time.
16:15:12 <KragenSitaker> I think the debate is much more likely to be productive if we take DRM advocates at their word that their aim really is to enforce copyright, not to do these other things.
16:15:15 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: all you've done as far as I'm concerned is give a series of hypotheticals and 'perhaps this is why's but no concrete causal demonstration. Not to mention, what is open society?
16:15:57 <Arnia> I don't see why having one copy cracked is enough to destroy copyright
16:16:06 <Arnia> You'd still need a distribution network
16:16:09 <KragenSitaker> Of course it doesn't destroy copyright.
16:16:15 <KragenSitaker> Having all copies cracked doesn't destroy copyright.
16:16:22 <Arnia> Phrased that badly
16:16:29 <KragenSitaker> All copies "cracked" is the default sttae.
16:16:32 <KragenSitaker> State.
16:16:35 <KragenSitaker> It has been for hundreds of years.
16:16:59 <KragenSitaker> During which time copyright, and people and organizations supported by copyright, have prospered.
16:17:05 <cre8radix> there are plenty of distribution networx
16:17:08 <cre8radix> no?
16:17:15 <KragenSitaker> Having one copy cracked destroys DRM.
16:17:32 <KragenSitaker> At least as an effective means for preventing copyright infringement.
16:17:36 <Arnia> hngh... as much as I hate arguments which go 'it is old, it is crap!' I also dislike arguments which go 'it is new, it is crap!'. *sends people on a course*
16:17:41 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: no, I don't think it does
16:18:01 <Arnia> For a start, copyright infringement isn't all or nothing
16:18:04 <KragenSitaker> ...given, of course, effective distribution networks.
16:18:13 <KragenSitaker> No, of course it isn't.
16:18:17 <KragenSitaker> DRM is all or nothing.
16:18:26 <Arnia> No, I don't see why
16:18:35 <cre8radix> drm does not work
16:18:42 * Arnia kicks cre8radix
16:18:46 <Arnia> Or would, if I could
16:18:46 <cre8radix> hrhr
16:18:55 <cre8radix> why?
16:18:57 <Arnia> cre8radix: please constructively argue
16:19:02 <cre8radix> ok
16:19:02 <KragenSitaker> Once a single unencrypted copy of a movie is on the net, it's easy for people to replicate that copy billions of times.
16:19:12 <KragenSitaker> Arnia: "Arnia kicks cre8radix" is not a constructive argument.
16:19:12 <cre8radix> right
16:19:19 <Arnia> As much as I disagree with KragenSitaker on this, he is arguing constructively
16:19:33 <cre8radix> ok ok
16:19:39 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: no, it wasn't... but the three lines together I think are
16:19:45 * cre8radix will try to be VERY constructive
16:19:46 <Arnia> I'm asking him to constructively argue
16:20:07 * Arnia preposes adverbs
16:20:15 <KragenSitaker> I think you have a level confusion here.
16:20:34 <cre8radix> "Once a single unencrypted copy of a movie is on the net, it's easy for people to replicate that copy billions of times."
16:20:36 <cre8radix> true
16:20:37 <KragenSitaker> A bunch of people screaming at each other to be civil does not constitute a civil conversation.
16:20:42 * Arnia raises his eyebrows a tad archly
16:21:22 <KragenSitaker> Once that unencrypted copy exists, perhaps copyright infringement will happen, or perhaps it won't.
16:21:32 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: and was I screaming? I was being Arnia which entails me doing randomly violent things as part of non-aggressive conversation
16:21:39 <KragenSitaker> But whether it does or not has nothing to do with the existence or efficacy of DRM.
16:21:46 * Arnia nukes sbp to demonstrate
16:21:46 <KragenSitaker> Since at that point the DRM is out of the picture.
16:23:07 <KragenSitaker> If there are effective means to prevent massive copyright infringement once someone has cracked the DRM, they consist of things like interdiction, detective work, and tracking of financial flows.
16:23:17 <KragenSitaker> Those also work if the DRM doesn't exist in the first place.
16:23:18 <sbp> nooOoo
16:23:19 * cre8radix has to answer a call
16:23:29 <cre8radix> bbiab
16:23:38 <Arnia> KragenSitaker: and it is possible to break certain models of safe; does that mean those safes are no longer devices fit-for-purpose? No, of course not. They're *less fit* but they're still safes. And this is simply an analogy with one DRM scheme. You seem to be arguing that ALL safes would be unfit
16:23:56 <KragenSitaker> No, of course not. Safes are not all-or-nothing devices like DRM schemes.
16:24:47 <KragenSitaker> If it takes you three hours to break one model of safe, it'll take you three hours for each instance of that kind of safe.
16:24:48 <Arnia> Once you've broken the safe you can distribute its contents willy-nilly
16:25:00 <KragenSitaker> No, because the contents of the safe are physical objects, not information.
16:25:22 <KragenSitaker> You can give them to someone else, but you can't replicate them trivially.
16:25:27 <Arnia> If the safe contained a DVD?
16:26:00 <KragenSitaker> But more importantly, the breaking process involves human effort.
16:26:21 <KragenSitaker> In the case of a DRM scheme, it just involves software. Once the software exists, you can apply it against all the instances of the safe.
16:27:04 <KragenSitaker> You don't have to know anything about DRM-cracking to watch a DVD with MPlayer and libdvdcss.
16:27:11 <Arnia> Now you just seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. Safes can contain renewable resources
16:27:15 *** cr`x has quit ("אַכטונג! קאָמפיוטער שלאָפֿט.")
16:27:35 <Arnia> The effect is the same, but few would argue that safes were inherently broken. They're another cat-and-mouse technology
16:27:53 <Arnia> As is encryption, but you'd not say encryption was broken by design. Why?
16:28:16 <KragenSitaker> Encryption historically has been such a technology, but not for the last 30 years or so.
16:28:48 <KragenSitaker> Triple-DES is still uncrackable, even though it was designed 30 years ago.
16:28:59 <KragenSitaker> Back to "if the safe contained a DVD."
16:33:13 <KragenSitaker> It's true that once you have the DVD, or Diana's secret love letters, or whatever, you can replicate them to the whole world, using the internet. The main difference is that individual safes generally don't get broken, while individual DRM schemes generally do.
16:33:48 <Arnia> That's an obscurity argument
16:33:52 <KragenSitaker> So if you want to keep Diana's love letters secret, you'd be much better advised to put them in a safe than to try to protect them using DRM.
16:34:27 <KragenSitaker> No, individual safes don't stay intact because there are secrets about their designs.
16:34:42 <Arnia> And whilst I accept that safe's are targeted less; I still don't think that harms my argument against your argument against DRM (whee, three levels and counting)
16:34:52 <KragenSitaker> They stay intact because they are guarded and because breaking each one takes a lot of effort.
16:35:13 <Arnia> ah, polymorphic DRM
16:35:15 * Arnia patents
16:35:50 * cre8radix thinks patents suck
16:35:52 <cre8radix> :D
16:36:56 * Arnia dies
16:37:06 <cre8radix> please don't
16:37:15 <Arnia> Sorry, you just eliminated investment in my insulin retroactively
16:37:31 <Arnia> Be careful of what you say when eddy's in the space-time continuum
16:37:36 <KragenSitaker> DRM schemes are not fit for their declared purpose because they all get broken, and fairly quickly. And they're as all-or-nothing as an individual safe --- once someone cuts open the safe, they can take everything in it.
16:38:07 <cre8radix> why's that?
16:38:29 <KragenSitaker> cre8radix: You don't have to depend on arguments against patents or copyrights in general to argue against DRM.
16:38:42 <KragenSitaker> There are very strong arguments against DRM that are founded solidly in the mainstream.
16:39:05 <KragenSitaker> I'm going to go off and program now.
16:39:48 <cre8radix> i don't see how drm could ever work
16:40:30 *** cr`x (n=zax@user-12lcqh4.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #swhack
16:40:56 <Arnia> well, the main flaw with DRM is definitely the fact that viewing requires decryption. At least with current schemes
16:41:04 <Arnia> I can think of a few ways that could be addressed
16:41:43 <KragenSitaker> cre8radix: it could work in a world where every communication from one person to another is monitored by agents of the state
16:42:06 <KragenSitaker> so as to ensure that no copyrighted information, or information about breaking copyright, is passed along
16:42:16 <Arnia> It can also work if you have walkabout protocols
16:42:26 <Arnia> without central control
16:42:30 * cre8radix just did a show about it
16:42:37 <KragenSitaker> or at least enough of them as to make people afraid
16:42:38 <KragenSitaker> a show?
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16:44:53 <cre8radix> http://doku.sothebies.de/doku.php?id=2006-12-12_szenario
16:45:21 <cre8radix> " thought origin's control"
16:45:23 <cre8radix> :D
16:47:16 <cre8radix> to finance themselves the people from the lower class sell their brain space. parts of their mental capacity can be used by others via radio... the million-euro brain game show ... and an economy, a complete, absurd fulfillment of the current Renaissance of intellectual property, creating the basis of it’s destruction (marx, mew23, approx. p.780)
16:47:29 <bjoern_> .title http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7096859
16:47:29 <cre8radix> etc.
16:47:33 <phenny> bjoern_: Feed Article | Business |
16:47:41 <bjoern_> Who ever allowed them to bill in doll WTF
16:48:05 *** leobard has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:49:03 <bjoern_> well sucks, where is my title
16:49:50 <sbp> < 冗 > NO TITLE FOR U >:(
16:50:29 <cr`x> so i watched, i think, 5 episodes of Never Mind The Buzzcocks last night
16:50:30 <Arnia> BOO NO TITLE U
16:50:34 <bjoern_> go join a standards org
16:50:46 <Arnia> bjoern_: HAH NO YOYO!
16:50:52 <cr`x> you people love your non-competitive quiz shows, don't you?
16:51:04 <Arnia> cr`x: they're called 'panel games'
16:51:35 <cr`x> ah
16:51:44 <cr`x> i don't think we have any equivalents
16:51:47 <bjoern_> cut the loltalk already!
16:51:49 <sbp> I watched Never Mind The Buzzcocks the other night
16:51:53 <Arnia> cr`x: they're just a vehicle for comedy really
16:51:57 <sbp> it wasn't as good as the early days
16:51:57 <cre8radix> Arnia: check out copycan.org
16:52:00 <sbp> but not bad
16:52:21 <cr`x> mostly because all american celebrities are so painfully stupid that if they spent a whole half-hour off the script they'd probably set themselves on fire by the end
16:52:33 <bjoern_> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7107358.stm
16:52:36 <phenny> bjoern_: BBC NEWS | Europe | Steep rise in Europe cocaine use
16:53:12 <sbp> cr`x: what mostly?
16:53:22 <bjoern_> "The husband of the Australian Liberal MP Jackie Kelly is captured distributing fake election flyers purporting to be from an Islamic group calling on people to vote for the opposition Labor party." - http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,2215159,00.html
16:53:28 <Arnia> cre8radix: interesting idea, won't work. The problem is lack of instant gratification
16:53:39 <cr`x> that is mostly the reason that we don't have any american equivalents to panel games.
16:53:44 <Arnia> People tend to be honest, but they don't tend to be patient
16:54:20 <sbp> ah, indeed
16:54:33 <sbp> the episode of Buzzcocks that I saw had Rod Stewart's very American daughter on
16:54:34 <cre8radix> Arnia: it depends
16:54:42 <cr`x> i saw that one too
16:54:43 <sbp> who apparently didn't have the capability of thought
16:54:47 <sbp> ah! awesome
16:54:51 <cre8radix> if there is free content available already
16:54:58 <Arnia> cr`x: we even have them on radio such as Sorry I Haven't a Clue and Just a Minute
16:54:58 <cr`x> what's funny is, she was completely par for the course by american talk show standards
16:55:02 <sbp> hehe
16:55:06 <cre8radix> they can take all of it and simply donate
16:55:30 <Arnia> cre8radix: "I want it now and I want that one"
16:55:30 <cre8radix> if a band has let's say a thousand fans and asks 1000 €
16:55:43 <cre8radix> it will take only seconds
16:55:48 <Arnia> ugh... I'd need to see an economic analysis
16:55:58 <Arnia> And the time scale is very optimistic
16:56:07 <cr`x> we have someone like that on television every night. and an interviewer—if they're intelligent, they're gritting their teeth as they try to extract broadcastable speech from this person. if not, they're blithely reading their cards and having an utter blast agreeing about how exciting everything is
16:56:07 <cre8radix> we'll release the beta next year
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16:56:36 <cr`x> it was no QI, of course.
16:56:51 <Arnia> cre8radix: I'm dubious
16:57:18 <Arnia> It *is* an interesting idea; but I'm not convinced it is a *good* idea
16:57:37 <sbp> cr`x: ooh, you know what they should do!
16:57:45 <sbp> 3 American celebs + Alan Davies on QI
16:57:53 <sbp> so Alan could win some shows
16:57:58 <cre8radix> Arnia: when a band releases an album on a specific date, they tend to be bought in the first few days
16:58:02 <cr`x> my god, he'd trounce them
16:58:25 <cr`x> it's strange, but you'd simply never find someone like john sessions in america
16:58:29 <Arnia> sbp: suggest it on the QI forum
16:58:35 <Arnia> cr`x: uh?
16:58:57 * cre8radix runs off to grab some food
16:59:04 <cr`x> in the first season, i think
16:59:04 <Arnia> cre8radix: well... no... long-tail and all
16:59:05 <cre8radix> yummy
16:59:21 <Arnia> The long-tail has more in than the initial peak
16:59:24 <cr`x> sessions was on and he kept piping up with the dates of the various historical figures who were being mentioned
16:59:33 <bjoern_> Yay "The Danish government has said it would like to hold a fresh referendum on whether to adopt the euro. " - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7107857.stm
16:59:35 <Arnia> cr`x: ah yes, I remember that one
16:59:41 <cr`x> it was quite endearing, and the sort of thing that your average nerd does reflexively
16:59:55 <cr`x> public figures in america have had that tendency very thoroughly bred out of them.
17:00:06 <sbp> Phil Cornwell is funnier
17:00:08 <cre8radix> i'm very anxious to find out
17:00:15 <cre8radix> l8rs
17:00:20 <cre8radix> [:)
17:00:20 <sbp> c'ya cre8radix
17:00:28 <cre8radix> see ya brother
17:00:33 <sbp> FIGHT THE POWER!
17:00:37 *** cre8radix is now known as cre8radix|off
17:00:42 <sbp> or, you know, whatever
17:00:42 <cre8radix|off> YAAAR
17:00:47 <cre8radix|off> lol
17:00:51 <bjoern_> ooh nice term
17:00:51 <bjoern_> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7108146.stm
17:00:54 <phenny> bjoern_: BBC NEWS | Business | Airbus fears 'weak-dollar death'
17:01:06 <bjoern_> WDD
17:01:08 <sbp> bjoern_: you're enjoying this new meme aren't you?
17:01:08 <cre8radix|off> bite the flower
17:01:19 <bjoern_> which one?
17:01:59 <cr`x> if i've ever seen cornwell's shtik, i don't know it
17:02:37 <sbp> he was in a show called Stella Street with John Sessions
17:02:42 <sbp> bjoern_: WDD
17:02:53 <Arnia> Stella Street was magnificent
17:02:54 <sbp> it was in the Grauniad article too wunnit?
17:02:58 <bjoern_> not a meme yet!
17:02:59 <sbp> yeah, it was gear
17:03:03 <sbp> getting that way!
17:03:23 *** cre8radix|off has quit ("your mama!")
17:03:32 <cr`x> i've actually seen very little of sessions' work
17:03:38 <cr`x> i only really like him from qi.
17:03:53 <cr`x> and from ricky gervais's reference to him on the office
17:04:31 <sbp> that's the problem with trying to absorb cultures from afar
17:04:38 <sbp> the mainstream stuff you can get okay
17:04:47 <sbp> but you're probably missing a lot of gems like Stella Street
17:04:58 <sbp> we had some great low-grade sitcoms in the 90s...
17:05:02 <sbp> I miss them now
17:05:31 <cr`x> sbp: http://www.mininova.org/search/?search=stella+street
17:05:35 <cr`x> it's not so bad as that.
17:05:44 <sbp> ooh
17:06:00 <sbp> I also did manage to get a season of The Detectives
17:06:12 <sbp> yay for the information age
17:06:16 <cr`x> i have found that with a few exceptions i have been able to find everything i look for from your isles
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17:12:07 <Arnia> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7107798.stm
17:12:10 <phenny> Arnia: BBC NEWS | Education | Children learn to read too early
17:12:14 <Arnia> EARLY! LATE! EARLY! LATE!
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17:12:34 <sbp> ha, that's a good one
17:13:54 *** cr`x (n=zax@user-12lcqh4.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #swhack
17:14:05 <Arnia> Maybe they'll decide which is better at some point
17:14:22 <sbp> perhaps if they'd only learned to read earlier/later they'd be able to make their minds up
17:14:25 <cr`x> there's no better. only worse
17:14:30 <Arnia> I do find the Government's response a particularly elegant 'fuck you'
17:15:28 * bjoern_ wasn't allowed to participate in his german course in the first years of school
17:15:51 <Arnia> Hm...
17:15:56 <Arnia> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7105928.stm
17:15:59 <phenny> Arnia: BBC NEWS | Health | NHS on course for large surplus
17:17:11 <bjoern_> "In Scandinavian countries formal teaching begins much later, usually when children are six or seven." - right, same here.
17:18:43 <bjoern_> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7107799.stm
17:18:47 <phenny> bjoern_: BBC NEWS | Africa | Bromide linked to Angola illness
17:18:51 <bjoern_> ooh isn't your shiny iWare full of it?
17:20:40 <cr`x> was This is England any good, speaking of moral decay?
17:21:32 <bjoern_> "Hundreds of thousands of people may not be able to vote in next year's US presidential election because of a huge citizenship application backlog." - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7107217.stm
17:21:47 <bjoern_> now that's bad, immigrants usually vote for Kang. Or was it Kodos?
17:22:57 <bjoern_> "Strong Republican opposition to immigration reform bills this year infuriated many Hispanics, who tend to vote Democrat and who made up the majority of US immigrants in 2006." - There you go.
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17:32:23 <sbp> Kodos then?
17:33:01 <bjoern_> I don't know! What was the difference between Kang and Kodos again?
17:34:38 <Arnia> There is someone sobbing outside
17:34:42 * Arnia is confused
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17:44:59 <sbp> yell out the window "hey! you suck!"
17:45:02 <sbp> and then shut the window
17:48:45 *** cre8radix (n=cre8radi@81-223-68-59.moosstrasse.xdsl-line.inode.at) has joined #swhack
17:49:26 <cre8radix> re
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17:54:08 <cre8radix> boing
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18:13:59 <bjoern_> Okay it's obviously a long time since I read RFC 2109; could somebody confirm for me that it has little to do with reality?
18:15:20 <sbp> HTTP/1.1 200 OK
18:15:20 <sbp> Set-Cookie: Customer="WILE_E_COYOTE"; Version="1"; Path="/acme"
18:19:50 <cre8radix> .origin sbp
18:19:53 <phenny> First saw sbp on #swhack at 2001-07-25 20:43:34, saying 'Hey, hi loggy' (see http://swhack.com/logs/2001-07-25#T20-43-34)
18:26:44 <bjoern_> What I was really trying to find out was the status of setting Set-Cookie multiple times in a header, ala "Set-Cookie: ...\nSet-Cookie: ..." which I took was not allowed and has to be specifically accounted for in implementations. One suggestion also being that the header uses "," as part of its syntax... now looking at the cookie specs and actual use, I am kinda confused.
18:27:29 <bjoern_> I might be too tired for this, but ...
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18:30:53 <d8uv> .swhack d8uv
18:30:56 <phenny> d8uv: 20 Nov 13:46Z <sbp> tell d8uv wanna write a new script?
18:30:57 <phenny> d8uv: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-11-20#T13-05-20
18:31:45 <cre8radix> heya d8uv :P
18:32:55 <bjoern_> Looking at todays logs I only encountered one instance of a comma in set-cookie that is not part of the expires parameter, which is "Set-Cookie: nuggcook=,,,,,,,,,,,,,; domain=.[...]; expires=Fri, 21-Nov-08 17:29:28 GMT; path=/;"
18:33:20 <bjoern_> And certainly RFC 2109 allows a comma-separated list...
18:38:02 <cre8radix> .origin cre8radix
18:38:23 <cre8radix> .swhack cre8radix
18:38:25 <phenny> cre8radix: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-11-22#T04-04-15
18:38:51 <phenny> First saw cre8radix on #swhack at 2007-02-28 14:29:29, saying 'Jibbler2: hey jibbler' (see http://swhack.com/logs/2007-02-28#T14-29-29)
18:39:56 <deltab> isn't it Set-Cookie2 nowadays?
18:40:03 <deltab> .gc set-cookie2
18:40:05 <phenny> set-cookie2: 24,500
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18:45:49 <sbp> d8uv!
18:46:02 <sbp> .gc nuggcook
18:46:04 <phenny> nuggcook: 0
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18:51:10 <sbp> .compare npyw ywnp
18:51:13 <phenny> npyw (1,990), ywnp (1,520)
18:53:20 <KragenSitaker> bjoern_: if you have multiple occurrences of any header in HTTP, it's supposed to be equivalent to a comma-separated list
18:53:46 <thelsdj> .compare fsdho erbha
18:53:48 <phenny> erbha (115), fsdho (40)
18:53:56 <sbp> KragenSitaker: no, it depends on the header
18:54:15 <sbp> ...I think
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18:54:47 <KragenSitaker> sbp: well, I might be misremembering
18:54:52 <sbp> nope, you're right sorry
18:54:59 <sbp> I was misremembering some #swig conversation
19:00:47 <jsled> Anyone have options for lame to get reasonable quality, highly-compressed files (i.e. for a mobile device's memory card)?
19:01:29 &l