00:00:24 <MoiraA_> right, finally gone to bed!
00:01:33 <therethinker> Hmm
00:02:03 *** MoiraA_ has quit ("bye!")
00:02:08 <therethinker> I guess I need to fix up a bot of my own, phenny won't cut it
00:02:16 <therethinker> phenny: help?
00:02:18 <phenny> Hi, I'm phenny (a http://inamidst.com/phenny/)
00:02:21 <phenny> Commands: acronym, beats, charinfo, codepoint, compare, email, event, gimage, google, googlecalc, googlecount, googledef, httphead, kalusa, mangle, map, myersbriggs, podecoint, rate, rates, remind, representation, seen, swhackcount, swhackcount2007, swhackorigin, swhacktail, tavtime, thesaurus, time, title, tock, translate, validate, weather, wikipedia, wordlength2007, wordnet
00:02:25 <phenny> Try "phenny: help command?" if stuck. My owner is sbp.
00:02:36 <_bjoern> calc 2007 - 69
00:02:37 <Monty> _bjoern: 1938
00:08:08 *** neuronbot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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00:25:16 <therethinker> Its re-written using the IRCbot thing
00:25:17 <neuronbot> :bk::.::.z:k::z:
00:25:33 <therethinker> Although, that, is a bug
00:25:34 <neuronbot> bbk::.::.z:k::z:
00:26:33 <therethinker> hmm
00:26:34 <neuronbot> nbk::.::.z:k::z:
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00:37:09 <_bjoern> "On Tuesday, CNN's Spanish service showed a caption reading "Who killed him?" over a report about Mr Chavez and Colombian President Alvaro Uribe." - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7117287.stm
00:41:39 <_bjoern> .title http://www.news.com/8301-13578_3-9824635-38.html
00:41:41 <phenny> _bjoern: Feds lose bid for Amazon.com customer records | The Iconoclast - politics, law, and technology - CNET News.com
00:57:57 *** Vasily (i=vas@bzq-179-108-105.static.bezeqint.net) has joined #swhack
00:59:12 <Vasily> anyone might help with a phenny problem? :) I wrote a really simple thing it won't work. (there is an 'import os' before these lines):
00:59:16 <Vasily> def f_up(self, origin, match, args):
00:59:17 <Vasily> self.msg(origin.sender, os.popen("uptime").read().strip())
00:59:18 <Vasily> f_up.rule = (['uptime'])
00:59:43 <Vasily> 'thing and it' *
01:01:38 <_bjoern> So what's not working?
01:02:27 <Vasily> I type uptime, .uptime, and it does nothing.
01:02:46 <therethinker> Ah
01:02:52 <Vasily> I also didn't quite understand when I should type the command with a dot in the beginning
01:03:05 <therethinker> when you specify uptime like that, you need to
01:03:46 <therethinker> f_up.rule = (['uptime'], r'(.*)')
01:03:47 <therethinker> try that
01:03:56 <therethinker> you shoulnd't have to have it, but I've found it helps
01:04:45 <_bjoern> You made sure to load the module, too, right?
01:04:53 <Vasily> yeh
01:05:04 <Vasily> damnit, who do I type an asterisk in nano
01:05:05 <_bjoern> and the code works outside the module? like in a standalone script?
01:05:19 <Vasily> the os.popen.. yeh.
01:05:22 <Arnia> hm
01:05:28 <Vasily> how *
01:05:40 <therethinker> err... try a ? instead
01:05:49 <therethinker> it won't have the same effect
01:05:57 <therethinker> but it will be better than what you have now :P
01:06:40 <Vasily> alright, that did the job :) thanks
01:06:50 <therethinker> BTW: I typed an astisk in nano by hitting shift+8 ;-)
01:07:06 <therethinker> So I don't see your problem
01:07:12 <Vasily> ah, I always use the numpad for that.
01:07:16 <therethinker> ah
01:08:32 <therethinker> what's the python random function to choose a random item from a list?
01:08:52 <Vasily> hi.py has random.choise()
01:08:59 <Vasily> choice *
01:09:01 <therethinker> that's what it is
01:09:02 <therethinker> thanks
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01:10:28 <Vasily> I'll take some sleep.. night and thanks again.
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01:12:19 <therethinker> nu Hello neuronbot!
01:12:20 <neuronbot> :qqnjkwuu?qk rqr
01:12:32 <therethinker> nu Wow! Aren't you conversational
01:12:34 <neuronbot> !rozmmquqqmzqum
01:12:35 <swhask> Unknown command, try @list
01:14:06 * Arnia declares a 7-tuple of therethinker
01:14:44 <therethinker> ('therethinker', 'awesome','smart','genius','amazing','tuplfied','perfect')
01:14:57 <therethinker> therethinker = ...^^
01:15:42 <Arnia> oh well, it isn't a tree
01:15:51 <Arnia> Can't make you isomorphic
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01:16:42 <therethinker> >:D
01:16:59 <therethinker> random fix
01:17:00 <neuronbot> I randomly mutated a node
01:17:10 <therethinker> fix node 5
01:17:10 <Arnia> neuronbot: shh
01:17:11 <neuronbot> Mutated
01:17:19 <therethinker> It doesn't respond to neuronbot!
01:17:21 <therethinker> >:D
01:17:25 <therethinker> nu shh!
01:17:27 <neuronbot> b:iz
01:17:44 <therethinker> I should try to get it to say something back wehen I say hello
01:17:56 <therethinker> nu hello!
01:17:57 <neuronbot> betqwz
01:19:10 <therethinker> Hmm
01:19:16 <therethinker> mutating doesn't get you anywhere quick
01:19:40 <therethinker> Unless you mutate the whole darn thing
01:20:09 <Arnia> Mutate yourself :)
01:20:14 <Arnia> therethinker_xman
01:20:25 <therethinker> >:D
01:20:34 *** therethinker is now known as therethinker_xlo
01:20:37 <_bjoern> .title http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2218623,00.html
01:20:40 <therethinker_xlo> damn... too long
01:20:41 <phenny> _bjoern: British teacher charged with insulting Islam over teddy bear's name | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
01:20:53 *** therethinker_xlo is now known as the_xlord
01:20:59 <the_xlord> I figured, why stop at "man"?
01:21:35 *** the_xlord is now known as therethinker
01:22:39 * therethinker grows a 2nd head and 12 finger
01:22:52 <therethinker> I got the 11th finger 10 days ago while playing with the mutating virus
01:23:00 <therethinker> I type faster, at eleast
01:23:01 <therethinker> *least
01:25:49 <Arnia> I need toast
01:25:56 <Arnia> Marmite and toast
01:27:46 <therethinker> http://buttersafe.com/2007/11/22/three-depressing-stories-about-turkeys/
01:27:51 <therethinker> That's... disgusting
01:28:01 <Arnia> Marmite and toast?
01:28:36 <therethinker> Yes
01:28:46 <_bjoern> plz dont post f00d links
01:28:48 <therethinker> Marmite is disgusting
01:28:51 <therethinker> I didn't >_>
01:28:56 <therethinker> Its a comic
01:29:00 <Arnia> Marmite is ambrosia
01:29:14 <Arnia> _bjoern: marmite and toast. marmite and toast
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01:29:31 <therethinker> *pukes*
01:29:33 <Arnia> Just because your sensibilities can't handle bitter flavours
01:29:53 <Arnia> But... it is wonderful. Complements buttered toast so well
01:29:56 <therethinker> I want garlic now
01:30:00 <Arnia> and is delicious in sandwiches too
01:30:03 <redmonk> hello
01:30:06 <therethinker> *that* complements toast
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01:30:18 <therethinker> Hello! Welcome to #swhack! How may I be of... damn he left
01:30:31 <_bjoern> phenny, tell redmonk we said "Hi!" after he left.
01:30:33 <phenny> _bjoern: I'll pass that on when redmonk is around.
01:30:35 <Arnia> redmonk is an old-school swhacker
01:30:46 <_bjoern> .origin redmonk
01:30:50 <phenny> First saw redmonk on #swhack at 2002-02-19 02:12:15, who then first said "hi all - what's the party for?" (see http://swhack.com/logs/2002-02-19#T02-12-15)
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01:31:18 <Arnia> Redmonk!
01:31:25 <redmonk> yo yo
01:31:28 <phenny> redmonk: 02:18Z <_bjoern> tell redmonk we said "Hi!" after he left.
01:31:28 <_bjoern> You shouldn't leave right after saying Hello
01:31:38 <Arnia> Don't be leavink right now
01:31:43 <redmonk> irc client was acting up
01:31:45 <redmonk> sry
01:31:57 * Arnia sends redmonk a friendly nuke
01:32:06 <redmonk> *pow*
01:32:44 <_bjoern> .gc "please come and kill me"
01:32:55 <Arnia> therethinker: I have used garlic butter on toast... prefer marmite
01:32:58 <Arnia> Or vegemite
01:33:21 <Arnia> .gc "come back and see me" "make me homocidal"
01:33:39 <_bjoern> .compare "come back and see me" "make me homocidal"
01:33:51 <_bjoern> phenny!
01:33:56 <_bjoern> ur google thread is hanging.
01:34:02 <Arnia> .compare "come up and see me" "make me homocidal"
01:34:40 <mini-man> No, not that...GOOGLE IS DOWN!
01:34:41 <mini-man> jk
01:34:58 * Arnia removes mini-man from the local sheaf of universes
01:34:59 <_bjoern> No, it's phenny
01:35:09 <mini-man> as I said, jk :P
01:35:34 <phenny> "please come and kill me": 5,530
01:35:36 <phenny> "come back and see me" "make me homocidal": 0
01:35:38 <phenny> _bjoern!
01:35:38 <phenny> "come back and see me" (44,600), "make me homocidal" (197)
01:35:41 <phenny> "come up and see me" (139,000), "make me homocidal" (197)
01:35:45 <Arnia> mini-man: and I'm jocularly removing you from reality.
01:36:01 <mini-man> :D
01:36:38 <Arnia> mini-man: you won't be saying that once... well, you won't be saying anything at all
01:36:46 <Arnia> Or would you have said anything
01:37:07 <Arnia> The problem with reality removal is it plays havoc with your memory of appointments
01:37:17 <mini-man> o_O
01:37:18 <Arnia> I turned up for three weddings which never happened last month
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01:40:03 <mini-man> poor, imaginary couples
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01:49:58 <Arnia> well... they don't exist, so they don't care
01:50:36 <mini-man> so? Imaginary feelings still hurt!!
01:50:42 <_bjoern> actually imaginary characters seem to care much more than their non-imaginary counterparts.
01:50:52 <_bjoern> think, like, your casual super hero.
01:51:27 <mini-man> lol
01:52:36 <mini-man> Bah! Dad's new honda decided to have a fit
01:53:00 <Arnia> It *is* a honda
01:53:26 * Arnia recommends the DB9
01:53:41 <mini-man> well he doesn't want to return it
01:53:49 <mini-man> the problem is, it randomly decides to honk.
01:53:53 <mini-man> as in, the security "feature"
01:53:57 <Arnia> oh
01:54:00 <Arnia> beep beep beep
01:54:09 <mini-man> exactly. And it seems to have a mind of it's own
01:54:30 <mini-man> Like randomly, we'll be on an intersection, red light, and it will go berserk.
01:54:38 <mini-man> And it really helps how everyone looks at us weird as though we're purposly doing it
01:55:32 <Arnia> Need more roundabouts
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03:07:32 <_bjoern> "A judge in Niagara Falls, New York, has apologized for jailing nearly four dozen people over a ringing mobile phone in his courtroom, his attorney said Wednesday." - http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/11/28/judge.cell.phone/
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03:17:16 <l7> .gc foo
03:17:19 <phenny> foo: 34,400,000
03:17:27 <l7> .fc foobar
03:17:30 <l7> .gc m
03:17:33 <phenny> m: 2,570,000,000
03:17:39 <l7> .gc foobar
03:17:42 <phenny> foobar: 3,650,000
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03:47:21 <KragenSitaker> .title http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071127-verizon-opens-up-will-support-any-device-any-app-on-its-network.html
03:47:24 <phenny> KragenSitaker: Verizon opens up, will support any device, any app on its network
03:47:27 <KragenSitaker> ABOUT MOTHERFUCKING TIME ASSHOLES
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06:12:54 <pierpa> .ety target
06:12:57 <phenny> "c.1400, 'shield,' dim. of late O.E. targe, from O.Fr. targe 'light shield,' from Frank. *targa 'shield' (cf. O.H.G. zarga 'edging, border,' Ger. zarge, O.E. targe, O.N. targa 'shield'), from P.Gmc. *targo 'border, edge.' Meaning 'object to be aimed at in shooting' [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=target
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07:23:05 <xover> .title http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/27/german_mvno_to_undercut_t_mobile_with_600_euro_iphone_rebate.html
07:23:08 <phenny> xover: AppleInsider | German MVNO to undercut T-Mobile with 600 euro iPhone rebate
07:24:31 <xover> .title http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/11/27/apple_aware_some_macbooks_contain_flawed_seagate_drives.html
07:24:34 <phenny> xover: AppleInsider | Apple aware some MacBooks contain flawed Seagate drives
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07:46:14 <nsh> .w partisan
07:46:17 <phenny> partisan n. 1: A fervent and even militant proponent of something
07:46:19 <phenny> partisan n. 2: An ardent and enthusiastic supporter of some person or activity
07:46:21 <phenny> partisan a. 1: Devoted to a cause or party.
07:49:26 <xover> .w partysan
07:49:28 <phenny> I couldn't find 'partysan' in WordNet.
07:49:30 <xover> .gc partysan
07:49:33 <phenny> partysan: 214,000
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07:58:03 <sbp> ew, RDF Validator is Java
07:58:39 <_bjoern> why of course
07:59:32 <sbp> when one is already working with RDF, one ought not compound one's problems surely...
08:00:04 <xover> The theory may be, How can it possibly get worse?
08:00:28 <sbp> the answer to that question in any situation is: more Java
08:00:58 <_bjoern> It could also be written as part of cwm.
08:01:23 <sbp> I'd rather hack cwm than a random Java program
08:01:41 <sbp> everything plays second evil fiddle to Java
08:01:59 <sbp> in Satan's Orchestra
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08:03:56 <Monty> howdy, beobal
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09:27:50 <_bjoern> .gc "dick my suck"
09:27:53 <phenny> "dick my suck": 1,460
09:31:42 * danja only really bothers with Java any more because of Jena
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09:55:24 <_bjoern> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7118363.stm
09:55:28 <phenny> _bjoern: BBC NEWS | Business | Yahoo to put adverts in PDF files
09:55:37 <_bjoern> just what we need, make pdfs even more annoying.
09:58:11 <nsh> wtf
09:58:13 <nsh> ??
09:58:14 <nsh> wtf
09:58:23 <nsh> did i mention '??'?
09:58:41 <_bjoern> No, I think you did not.
09:59:49 <nsh> what percentage of the internet hoi-polloi actually reads pdfs anyway?
10:00:19 <_bjoern> Further research indicates some instances of this, but not '??':
10:00:21 <_bjoern> [02 Oct 07 20:36] * nsh * ?
10:00:21 <_bjoern> [08 Oct 07 18:07] * nsh * ?
10:00:21 <_bjoern> [25 Nov 07 01:22] * nsh * ?
10:03:48 <nsh> your mission
10:03:51 <nsh> should you choose to accept it
10:04:02 <nsh> is to script up some foo
10:04:12 <nsh> so that i can take this list of 100 most requested dub reggae songs
10:04:27 <nsh> and turn it into 100 streams of those songs
10:04:31 <nsh> from the various internets
10:04:48 <nsh> READY SET GO!
10:08:07 <nsh> .wik Tuniac
10:08:10 <phenny> "Tony Million wrote the original version of Tuniac sometime before 2004." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuniac
10:08:18 <nsh> that's not how you start an article
10:09:53 <nsh> .wik Tuniac
10:09:58 <phenny> "Tuniac is a free, open-source song-identification program." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuniac
10:10:10 <nsh> oh, except maybe it's not
10:21:25 <nsh> Arnia_, !
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10:26:03 <nsh> jesus
10:26:13 <nsh> the eq settings on youtube music are terrible
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10:36:37 <Monty> lo idickinson
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10:45:44 <Arnia> BOING
10:46:38 <sbp> <<<secret greeting to Arnia>>>
10:46:59 <Arnia> <<sprains a rib in the process>>
10:48:00 <sbp> sprain thyself not thy rib and thou shalt be sprainless
10:48:16 * Arnia transfers sbp into Monty Python and the Holy Grill
10:48:17 <Monty> good anyway
10:48:37 * sbp is now known as TheSillyKuhnighut
10:49:40 <Arnia> I could do with some food
10:49:51 * sbp is eating cheese
10:50:08 <Arnia> bah
10:50:16 <Arnia> I'm going to make curried beans on toast
10:50:23 <Arnia> But I'm going to curry my own beans
10:50:43 <sbp> how do you partially satisfy a bean's arguments?
10:51:12 <Arnia> sexually, of course
10:51:18 <sbp> 'k 'k
10:51:36 <Arnia> .title http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/ReleaseNotes046
10:51:40 <phenny> Arnia: ReleaseNotes046 - Inkscape Wiki
10:51:49 <Arnia> sbp: what's tabulator's JS API like?
10:51:59 <danja> mmm, The Holy Grill
10:52:26 <Arnia> danja: I have an urge to find somewhere that sells ribs
10:53:21 <sbp> Inkscape: you can do engraving now!
10:53:33 <sbp> Arnia: I've only done quick examples
10:53:40 <sbp> it's better than cwm and worse than rdflib...
10:53:56 <sbp> but you probably already guessed that :-)
10:54:00 <Arnia> yeah :)
10:54:43 <sbp> see http://inamidst.com/stuff/semantic/tabquery
10:54:54 <sbp> that's the usual "print out people in my FOAF file" hello world in Tabulator
10:55:00 <Arnia> I'm pondering a Fresnel implementation using Flapjax and Tabulator
10:55:20 <sbp> snippet:
10:55:20 <sbp> var kb = new RDFIndexedFormula();
10:55:22 <sbp> var p = new RDFParser(kb);
10:55:22 <sbp> p.parse(rdfxml, uri, uri);
10:55:22 <sbp> var results = kb.statementsMatching(
10:55:22 <sbp> undefined,
10:55:23 <sbp> new RDFSymbol('http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name'),
10:55:24 <Arnia> sbp: who came up with that as a hello world for RDF? I used that example, but I'm not sure why :/
10:55:24 <sbp> undefined
10:55:27 <sbp> );
10:55:33 <darobin> mmm, looks like Inkscape is getting nice features
10:55:39 <darobin> shame they forgot to have a UI
10:55:39 <sbp> Flapjax... I remember you mentioned that but didn't look at it closely...
10:55:44 <sbp> .wik Flapjax
10:55:47 <phenny> "Flapjax is a new programming language built atop JavaScript." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapjax
10:55:50 <sbp> Arnia: I've no idea when it was first used
10:56:01 <sbp> I think it's a case of massive multiple indepdenent invention
10:56:02 <darobin> Flapjax is the reactive thing?
10:56:08 <sbp> er, independent
10:56:19 * darobin found it to be horribly, horribly slow
10:56:38 <Arnia> darobin: the examples I've seen don't seem slow
10:56:51 <Arnia> darobin: care to expand on how it behaved?
10:56:52 <darobin> the ones from the site were
10:57:18 <darobin> oh it behaved well, it's just that its event processing was several seconds behind actual actions
10:57:40 <darobin> just the basic example of the square the follows the mouse brought it to its knees here
10:57:58 <darobin> (MBP/2Go/Opera 9.5)
10:58:26 * darobin is hungry too, but lazy
10:59:37 <_bjoern> language built atop JavaScript? How sick is that?
11:00:29 <sbp> Level Eight Sick
11:00:39 <_bjoern> NO, HIGHER
11:01:01 <sbp> no
11:01:07 <sbp> nine is the OS that someone made in JS
11:01:13 <Arnia> darobin: strange... all the examples run wonderfully here (MB using Safari)
11:01:18 <sbp> ten is reserved for when someone reimplements Java in JS
11:01:38 <Arnia> sbp: not an OS... just an interaction experiment shell
11:01:43 <_bjoern> they already did it the other way round.
11:01:49 <sbp> ah
11:02:15 <Arnia> FRP is a cool thing though, and I heartily recommend it as a style of programming
11:02:25 <darobin> Arnia: maybe it's Opera being silly, it happens
11:02:33 <darobin> being slower than Safari would be a first though
11:02:54 <Arnia> Safari 3 is fast
11:02:58 <Arnia> Very very very fast
11:03:31 <Arnia> I've always found Opera very slow personally
11:03:51 <sbp> OPERA U CAN HAZ SUX
11:04:04 <sbp> I wonder what Shiira will be like using the new Safari codebase?
11:05:40 <Arnia> I hope they use a more recent WebKit nightly
11:07:43 <nsh> can you listen to radio4 live on the internet?
11:07:48 * nsh seems to remember you can't
11:07:54 <nsh> but then, that's retarded, so i thought i'd check
11:08:20 <nsh> oh, wait, you can. it's cool
11:09:28 * danja crashes FF again
11:09:42 <Arnia> Let's have ourselves a crash party!
11:09:51 * Arnia wheels in an elderly crash bandicoot
11:19:27 <_bjoern> This is bizarre http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7118287.stm
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11:22:15 <Monty> hi cre8radix, how ya doing?
11:22:17 <phenny> Monty: shh, don't let anyone know you're around!
11:22:19 <Monty> as3 has six months of randomization
11:22:32 <nsh> Monty, you're six months of randomisation, in a week
11:22:36 <Monty> xylophone's French free sample moves addressbook's exploding tissues :(
11:22:53 <nsh> .gc "exploding tissues"
11:22:55 <phenny> "exploding tissues": 6
11:24:21 <nsh> Matisyahu++
11:30:22 <_bjoern> Al Gore got haxed again
11:31:23 <_bjoern> http://www.symantec.com/enterprise/security_response/weblog/2007/11/pharming_pharmaceuticals.html
11:31:33 <darobin> haxed?
11:32:00 <_bjoern> shuddup and clix link
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11:36:07 <sbp> "Fortunately, the ka-ching! of cash trumps notoriety."
11:36:08 <nsh> .ety sessile
11:36:11 <phenny> "1725, 'adhering close to the surface,' from L. sessilis 'pertaining to sitting,' from sessum, pp. of sedere 'to sit' (see sedentary)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=sessile
11:36:22 <nsh> .ety mobile
11:36:30 <phenny> "1490, from M.Fr. mobile, from L. mobilis 'movable,' from movere 'to move' (see move)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=mobile
11:36:38 <nsh> .ety -ile
11:36:41 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "-ile". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=-ile
11:37:00 <sbp> we should make yoiuuuuuuuygfghlkuhbde.com
11:37:08 <sbp> for drunk people who want to see videos
11:37:15 <sbp> only we'd put pictures of elk up instead
11:37:28 * nsh chuckles
11:37:28 <sbp> and they wouldn't notice that they're not videos, because they're drunk
11:37:28 <sbp> everyone wins
11:37:42 <_bjoern> .title http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1687445,00.html
11:37:45 <phenny> _bjoern: Iran's Secret Weapon: The Pope - TIME
11:38:36 * nsh prepares for operation corned-beef-in-my-mouth
11:38:46 <sbp> good luck soldier
11:39:00 <nsh> thank you, sir
11:39:30 * _bjoern hands nsh an exploding tissue
11:39:53 <nsh> IZ BUBY TRAP!
11:40:12 <nsh> god, sinnap makes anything good
11:40:38 <darobin> "they know an intervention of the Vatican is the most open and amenable route to Western public opinion."
11:40:41 <nsh> http://www.finnishfood.net/store/product_info.php?products_id=103
11:40:43 <darobin> does anyone really give a shit?
11:40:57 <_bjoern> We Are Pope!
11:40:59 <nsh> if you like meat, you'll like --------------------------------/^
11:41:10 <nsh> pft
11:41:34 * nsh will fight the formation of a galactic empire with all his toffees
11:41:38 <darobin> mmm, turku mustard
11:41:52 <nsh> iz best
11:42:09 <_bjoern> I should kill everyone with more food than I have.
11:42:29 <_bjoern> I would begin immediately if I weren't so lazy.
11:43:18 <_bjoern> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissue-san
11:43:35 <sbp> Finnish Mustard?
11:43:42 <nsh> yahman
11:43:50 <sbp> what does it taste like?
11:43:55 <nsh> it autoinciments all meat
11:44:03 <nsh> incremement? that one
11:44:07 <sbp> Tissue-san is great
11:44:15 <nsh> Tissue-san is my hero
11:44:43 * nsh wonders if there are any Tissue-san adventures
11:45:49 <sbp> if not we should make some
11:46:12 <nsh> +yes
11:46:23 <nsh> damnit, i want my imagination machine
11:46:48 <sbp> Monty is still the closest thing there is, eh?
11:46:48 <Monty> was*
11:46:54 <nsh> idiots trying to cure cancer and solve world hunger when i still can't time arbitrary phrases and get cool pictures
11:46:56 <sbp> oh!
11:46:58 <nsh> *type
11:47:05 <nsh> Monty, DON@T LEAVE US!
11:47:06 <Monty> What does that suggest to you ?
11:47:28 <nsh> Monty, cadaverjuice
11:47:31 <Monty> 17 - http://etymonline.com/?term=sessile
11:47:44 <nsh> mmm, cadaver-juice
11:48:00 <nsh> .. it's in urban dictionary
11:48:09 * nsh semi-afeared to check def
11:48:35 <nsh> oh ok, just the search query
11:48:52 <nsh> "cadaver juice isn't defined yet, but these are pretty close:"
11:49:09 * nsh wonders if we are Teh Old One's imagination machine
11:50:01 <nsh> <Avatar> Yo, dad, 'sup? Can haz apocalypse now? <Beadius Deus> Nope, they haven't even defined cadaver juice yet
11:50:43 <nsh> [[[
11:50:46 <nsh> 7. crankenstein
11:50:46 <nsh> 11 thumbs up
11:50:46 <nsh>
11:50:46 <nsh> A cadaver that has an unusually large penis.
11:50:46 <nsh> Dude, I had to work on crankenstein for my EMT training.
11:50:55 <nsh> ]]] -urbandictionary.com
11:51:33 <sbp> idea!
11:51:36 <sbp> doghurt
11:51:44 <sbp> dog flavoured yoghurt
11:52:14 * nsh still waiting for a spamana
11:52:22 <sbp> hehe
11:53:40 * nsh wonders what the estimated time 'til popeday is
11:53:51 <nsh> he's like 80, and being evil only gives +3 lifespan
11:54:28 <nsh> or maybe they've finally worked the bugs out of the disney animatronicardinel
11:54:30 <sbp> you blasphemer
11:54:39 <nsh> hey man
11:54:40 <sbp> do you have a teddybear named Benedict?
11:54:58 * nsh puts on hangdog expression and turns face away
11:55:01 <sbp> hehe
11:55:09 <nsh> he keeps my pins
11:55:17 <sbp> oh man
11:55:31 <nsh> i'm captain irreverent
11:55:35 <cre8radix> SBP!
11:55:45 <sbp> cre 8 radix
11:56:29 <_bjoern> "Kinney Parking Company was originally a New Jersey funeral home company which expanded into New York parking lots" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinney_Parking_Company
11:56:58 <sbp> ...
11:56:59 * nsh laughs
11:57:07 <nsh> please let that be true
11:57:19 <sbp> natural step in NY?
12:01:21 <cre8radix> hrhr
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12:04:51 * Arnia cries over HTTP Range-14
12:08:29 <sbp> heh, #swig traffic?
12:09:29 <_bjoern> .gc urn:pwns:url
12:09:31 <phenny> urn:pwns:url: 0
12:10:36 <sbp> note that I already solved it in EARL back in 2001/2002
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12:10:49 <sbp> EARL ftw
12:11:03 <sbp> the idea was if you had something like...
12:11:14 <sbp> <http://example.org/tool>
12:11:48 <sbp> which is the homepage for Tool™, you don't know if the author is using it as a URI for the tool itself or the URI for its documentation
12:12:28 <sbp> so we just did a thing a bit like foaf:primaryTopic
12:12:32 <sbp> where we say:
12:12:47 <sbp> <http://example.org/tool> :tool _:object
12:12:54 <sbp> means that:
12:13:06 <sbp> 1) if the subject is a tool, then the object is equivalent to it
12:13:19 <sbp> 2) if the subject is documentation about a tool, the object is the tool that the documentation is about
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12:21:54 <darobin> yeah, but the problem with httpRange-14 is precisely that too many tools have tried to solve it
12:21:56 * darobin hides
12:24:42 <Arnia> bloody bloody bloody URIs
12:24:44 <Arnia> Stupid fucking token identity
12:24:49 <Arnia> ahem... I'm calm now
12:25:32 <darobin> .title http://www.wizzywig.com/xcart/product.php?productid=36547&cat=436&page=1
12:25:36 <phenny> darobin: Wizzywig Collectibles :: San-X :: Tissue San :: Tissue San Plush
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12:27:37 <Arnia> WebArch considered broken (again)
12:27:40 * Arnia sighs
12:27:56 <Arnia> Unfortunately at this precise moment I have nothing to replace it with
12:28:34 <darobin> mmmmm, muffins
12:29:04 * Arnia deletes darobin's muffins
12:29:23 <darobin> muahahaha, tooo late!
12:29:36 <Arnia> FROM YOUR STOMACH!
12:29:45 <darobin> now that's not nice
12:29:57 <darobin> now that France was starting to become civilised
12:30:23 <darobin> I've now found reliable and close-by sources for muffins, curry paste, udon noodles, and more
12:30:29 <darobin> they even have scones!
12:30:33 <darobin> but no crumpets
12:30:39 <darobin> still, an improvement
12:36:50 <Arnia> True... should be part of the EU CHR "It shall be an immutable human right to have access to muffins, crumpets, scones and other bakery products as seen fit by the FSM"
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12:37:50 <darobin> I believe it is, but France hasn't ratified the convention
12:38:17 <darobin> so all you get normally here are buttery croissants
12:38:20 <darobin> bo
12:38:21 <darobin> ring
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12:40:57 <nsh> best sentence fragment of today's reading: "would have required as prerequisites mastery of an enourmous range of the totally irrelevent"
12:41:07 *** Arnia has quit (Connection reset by peer)
12:41:17 <nsh> i think that sums up university education
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12:46:29 <darobin> ㋛
12:46:41 <Arnia> E_NO_MORE_CRUMPET
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12:54:02 <nsh> is there a word for baby-food?
12:55:26 <Arnia> Baby-food?
12:56:47 <nsh> baby-food is baby-language. things have words
12:56:54 <nsh> we've just forgotten them all
12:59:15 <nsh> pap: noun: a diet that does not require chewing; advised for those with intestinal disorders
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13:18:58 <nsh> darobin, what would be the french for "already thought", parallel to the formation "deja-vu"?
13:19:25 <nsh> deja-pense
13:20:45 <darobin> déjà-pensé yes
13:21:15 <nsh> thanks
13:21:29 <darobin> de rien
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14:19:46 <darobin> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7100000/newsid_7102600/7102661.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&ms3=54&ms_javascript=true&bbcws=2
14:19:49 <phenny> darobin: BBC News Player - Kittens adopt rabbit as mother
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14:25:58 <nsh> oh man
14:26:02 <nsh> it was pi o'clock
14:26:04 <nsh> ad you totally missed it
14:27:28 <Tene> Nope, I was conscious during it.
14:29:30 <nsh> nice
14:29:50 <Arnia> I wasn't; damn narcolepsy
14:31:05 * nsh is only quasiconscious at any time
14:31:47 * Arnia describes nsh's consciousness using category theory
14:31:59 <Arnia> Since I am failing to get a reasonable category out at the moment :p
14:43:48 * nsh listens to William Burroughs
14:44:03 <jsled> nsh: which?
14:44:14 <nsh> actually, i'm listening to a google video documentry of him
14:44:23 <nsh> while i wait for some albums to, uh, "get bought"
14:44:37 <jsled> heh. which albums? I think there's only a couple.
14:44:40 <nsh> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9198809969200913970
14:45:01 <jsled> Elvis of Letters... Dead City Radio
14:45:08 <nsh> The Place of Dead Roads, Cities of the Red Night, The Western Lands
14:45:18 <nsh> and two single recordings
14:45:22 <jsled> Hmm.
14:45:49 * nsh is so in love with his voice
14:46:30 <nsh> i think those are not original album names
14:46:36 <nsh> it's a best of three cd set
14:46:54 <nsh> *best-of three-cd set
14:47:18 <jsled> Spare Ass Annie (and other tales) is quite awesome. Michael Franti providing/mixing background music and some sound effects for some great spoken work pieces.
14:47:38 *** chris2 (n=chris@p5B16BBE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #swhack
14:47:49 <jsled> Damnit, why don't I have that ripped?
14:47:52 <Tene> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.perl.perl6.language/9963
14:48:14 <nsh> jsled, i think i've heard a few of those
14:48:24 <nsh> was it quite electronica-themed music?
14:48:41 <jsled> not electronica ... more just beats.
14:49:05 * nsh nods
14:49:38 <nsh> i'm pretty naive at describing music
14:50:07 <jsled> http://www.amazon.com/Spare-Ass-Annie-Other-Tales/dp/B000005HTW/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1196350603&sr=8-1
14:51:03 <jsled> (g'd www.allmusic.com still sucks. :/)
14:52:36 <jsled> There's another 2-cd set ... "10% - File Under Burroughs" ... disc 1 was "Beats" some downtempo, electronica, and disc 2 was "Beat", the spoken word tracks.
14:52:38 * nsh wishes firefox had a "copy location link" that followed redirects
14:52:58 <nsh> it's really annoying when you want to use the shell
14:53:37 <jsled> I like disc1, but disc2 was more like people reminiscing about Burroughs and Brion Gysin and a certain group of people/period of time ... low replay value.
14:53:51 <nsh> aye
14:54:28 <nsh> hmm
14:54:44 <nsh> i wonder what will be remembered from our generation in such a way
14:55:24 <nsh> seems like the spirit died in the 80s and hasn't been revived since
14:55:41 <nsh> but that's just blindsight, history hasn't sorted the revolutionary from the mundane yet
14:56:12 <nsh> or maybe the truth is somewhere in between
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15:45:10 <Monty> But what does leobard have to do with the price of fish?
15:45:12 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
15:45:15 <Monty> "Kinney Parking Company (or irc) I IS BACKZ
15:45:31 <jsled> MONTY IS BACKZ! HURRAZ!
15:45:34 <Monty> Thesedays, Animal Village dreams of feckless sprays...?
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15:46:45 <procto> whatcha talkin bout Monty?
15:46:46 <Monty> VROOM! CRASH!
15:47:51 <leobard> hi monty, do you remember the page you referred to yesterday?
15:47:51 <Monty> Two!
15:48:15 <leobard> ah, thanks, monty, what did I have to google for?
15:48:16 <Monty> nope
15:53:03 <Talliesin> Good old monty
15:53:04 <Monty> fresh!
15:53:08 <Talliesin> mad as a brush
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15:54:35 <Arnia> I love Monty. I wonder whether he is married
15:54:37 <Monty> puts his hands on atmos!!!
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16:05:30 <nsh> Monty's replies have got a lot shorter of late
16:05:33 <Monty> okay I tried to misinterpret intentions
16:05:37 * nsh wonders if it's worth doing a log analysis to show this
16:08:03 <sbp> yeah man, do it!
16:08:08 <sbp> analyse that Monty!
16:08:09 <Monty> Do you feel strongly about discussing such things ?
16:08:13 <sbp> yeah!
16:08:43 <perigrin> Montalisys
16:08:54 <perigrin> Montylisys
16:08:55 <Monty> set ... return hello
16:09:03 <sbp> hello
16:09:04 <Arnia> Mmmm mmm Monty
16:09:04 <Monty> That is interesting. Please continue.
16:09:07 <Arnia> Monty: no
16:09:10 <Monty> Today, OLVWM sells ice-cold Jeffrey Archer :P
16:09:15 <perigrin> sbp, j0
16:09:23 * Arnia shudders at the idea of an ice-cold Jeffrey Archer
16:10:02 <perigrin> better than a tepid Jeffery Archer ... though of course I've read none of his novels.
16:11:27 <sbp> a Jeffrey Archer in the hand is worth two in the bush
16:16:00 <Arnia> A Jeffrey Archer in the bush is his normal state
16:16:10 <Arnia> Philandering twat
16:16:27 <sbp> hehe
16:17:27 <Arnia> Ok... I have recovered equations in the relational version
16:17:42 <Arnia> Still haven't recovered IFPs or CIFPs though
16:17:42 <Arnia> hm
16:17:55 * Arnia continues working on the idea
16:18:51 <sbp> Richard Cyganiak just asked me: "Is it the case that your concern is compatibility with 10-year old HTTP clients?"
16:18:54 <sbp> my reply: "Yes."
16:18:59 <sbp> easy so far
16:19:08 <Arnia> The equational diagrams look really complicated but that can be elided since it is just a matter of syntax to convert 'cousin = descendent . sibling . ancestor' to the diagrams
16:19:21 <sbp> (of course that's only a subset of my concern, but hence my concern does entail it)
16:19:42 <Arnia> Assuming monotonicity of concern
16:19:49 <sbp> what's that got to do with CIFPs?
16:20:02 <sbp> oh, just talking about the syntax?
16:20:28 <Arnia> sbp: yes; but the monotonicity comment was regarding your concern over compatibility
16:21:43 <Arnia> Oddly, remember how NAL encodes general relations (as opposed to copulas)?
16:21:52 <Arnia> Well... this actually looks a lot like that encoding
16:22:13 <sbp> encodes relations... with %a;b% after 'em?
16:22:46 <Arnia> Well, I mean like the neutralisation --> (acid x base) example
16:23:02 <sbp> hmm, nope. don't recall that
16:23:11 <sbp> I recall talking about birds and intension...
16:23:22 <Arnia> that is pretty much the categorical definition of a relation; as a sub-concept of the product of the arguments
16:24:11 <sbp> so x is multiplication in your NAL snippet?
16:24:14 <Arnia> oh, and in the grandfather example -- grandfather = father . father -- the grandfather relation is a binary relation with a hidden ternary term in the middle
16:24:20 <Arnia> Not multiplication; product
16:24:24 <sbp> well, pro... yeah
16:25:05 <sbp> looks like an N3 path
16:25:21 <Arnia> Anyway, there is a herfting badger in the works: I can't think of a way to encode the notion of owl:sameAs
16:25:39 <Arnia> sbp: indeed that is the syntax I'm subverting to make these things easy to write
16:25:44 <sbp> oho
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16:26:26 <sbp> presumably owl:sameAs is an arrow with zero length?
16:26:34 <Arnia> Now, owl:sameAs should behave sort of like an isomorphism... but not exactly. It needs to be an impure isomorphism which doesn't produce identity but rather some other endoarrow
16:26:48 <sbp> .g endoarrow
16:26:55 <phenny> sbp: http://www.tac.mta.ca/tac/volumes/1995/n6/v1n6.ps
16:26:59 <sbp> BAD
16:27:07 <Arnia> And that endoarrow can be assigned a truth value through a characteristic morphism
16:27:12 <Arnia> .wik endoarrow
16:27:16 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "endoarrow".
16:27:30 <Arnia> Endoarrows are arrows with the same source and target; loops
16:27:44 <Arnia> Identity arrows are distinguished endoarrows
16:27:50 <sbp> awesome category theory paper title: Symmetric Operads for Globular Sets
16:28:06 <Arnia> There is one on Arxiv on spherical functors atm
16:28:46 <Arnia> Oh, and I don't have a topos exactly. A pseudo-topos really because the characteristic arrow isn't unique
16:28:55 <sbp> loops... I didn't know arrows could be curved in CatThe
16:29:37 <Arnia> I suppose what revision needs to do is to form an algebra of pseudo-topoi with a particular proper topos (the ground form) as a terminal object
16:29:57 <Arnia> sbp: yes... well, for any object there is always at least one endoarrow: id
16:30:13 <sbp> well... I mean...
16:30:20 <sbp> can non-endoarrows be curved?
16:30:26 <sbp> I suppose it doesn't make sense really does it?
16:30:32 <sbp> there's no reason you'd want them to curve
16:30:39 <sbp> you only need to curve to refer to self
16:31:04 <Arnia> Endoarrow is just the term used for those arrows which start and end at the same point
16:31:10 <sbp> loops as a special case for endoarrows just felt odd
16:31:16 <Arnia> so... it is like saying 'can non-red things be red'
16:31:30 <sbp> but now I realise it's just a nice way of drawing a zero-length arrow
16:31:51 <Arnia> Symmetries are endoarrows incidentally
16:31:57 <Arnia> They're also isomorphisms
16:32:00 <sbp> ôrly?
16:32:13 *** bear42 is now known as bear
16:32:25 <Arnia> A symmetry maps a structure back to itself in such a way that the structure is preserved and the map can be reversed
16:32:45 <Arnia> The meaning of 'can be reversed' is exactly what an isomorphism encodes
16:33:00 <sbp> ooh
16:33:15 <sbp> wow, category theory as a teaching method...
16:33:23 <sbp> who'd'a thunk it?
16:33:49 <sbp> I hadn't thought about the meaning of an isomorphism that closely before
16:34:10 <Arnia> So, category theory is a symmetry invariant formalism
16:34:32 <Arnia> And even symmetry breaking can be described in a symmetry invariant fashion
16:34:35 <thelsdj> in new robert j sawyer book i'm reading, SETI gets a message from aliens and they use category theory to lay out lines of communication
16:34:37 <Arnia> (something poetic about that)
16:35:22 <Arnia> sbp: category theory is a wonderful teaching tool because you can use the same ideas over and over again in many different fields to give meaning to those fields
16:35:38 <Arnia> so, you can gain a lot of insight into group theory just by thinking of a group as a category
16:36:04 <Arnia> (that is an object with a collection of endoarrows which all have an inverse)
16:36:09 <sbp> it's like the AI of AI in a way...
16:37:49 <nsh> :-/
16:37:53 <Arnia> Even if my particular research accomplishes nothing; the value of having a categorical RDF is immense. It provides a huge variety of tools to bring to bear on thorny problems of semantics all without gluing new layers on top
16:37:56 <sbp> metansh
16:37:57 <nsh> firefox on fedora
16:38:03 <nsh> just isn't compatable with finite ram
16:38:30 <sbp> hehe
16:38:41 <sbp> Arnia: did you update your paper since the last time you showed me it?
16:38:52 <Arnia> no
16:39:00 <sbp> I'll have a read of it now I think whilst Google is broken
16:39:04 <Arnia> going to write another
16:39:08 <sbp> heh, heh
16:39:11 <sbp> what's the filename again?
16:39:33 <Arnia> standard prefix; equational-reasoning.pdf
16:39:34 <nsh> MAGNAPENORETMIRABILIUS.ps
16:40:07 <sbp> ah, got it
16:40:13 <sbp> heh, I'd typed "Arnia category theory" into Spotlight
16:40:20 <sbp> but, duh, you don't use the name Arnia in the paper...
16:40:27 <Arnia> naturally ;)
16:40:28 <nsh> my hobby: ending forum posts and irc lines with sentence fragments: it's just
16:40:40 <sbp> :-)
16:40:55 <nsh> I used to play a similar game in meatspace
16:41:01 <nsh> where you pick a cue for the day
16:41:09 <nsh> something that's likely to happen every few conversations
16:41:16 <nsh> and when somebody accidentally triggers the cue
16:41:31 <nsh> you start reponding in complete malaproposism
16:41:45 <nsh> *malapropisms
16:41:49 <Arnia> sbp: If you need any help deciphering concepts let me know
16:42:14 <nsh> so if someone touches their face while you're talking about the football, you start reponding to the nearest conversation you can hear instead of their statements
16:42:19 <nsh> fun game until no-one talks to you anymore
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16:42:21 <Arnia> I can provide a one-on-one category theory tutorial here-and-now with plenty of three-word-hyphens
16:42:45 <nsh> i usually have to call an 0906 number for that
16:43:56 * nsh needs to learn hunger patience
16:44:39 <nsh> one day there will not be custard creams and nachos and salsa and peanuts and dark chocolate
16:44:51 <nsh> and sustainance will come in regular meal form
16:48:19 <Arnia> Don't talk about food
16:48:27 <nsh> sorry
16:48:31 <Arnia> Haven't eaten properly for ages... uh since I started the PhD in fact
16:48:36 * Arnia grumbles
16:48:49 <sbp> ooh, I think I get the subProperty example
16:48:50 <sbp> awesome
16:49:36 <Arnia> Bear in mind that I have now completely altered my formulation to be more compatible with topos theory and initial algebra semantics
16:49:57 <Arnia> But... it is still a good example to understand category theory I think
16:50:06 <xover> SMARTNOISE! HURT XOVER'S HEAD!
16:50:27 <sbp> that's gonna be what your new paper's about?
16:50:41 <sbp> Monty: make smartnoise hurt xover's head
16:50:44 <Monty> oblong F1GP scratches tarmac ships...?
16:50:57 * Arnia did qualify the paper with the point that the categoricalisation I give therein is just one of many possible and others may be better; the point being to show that categoricalisation is possible and desirable
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16:51:15 <Arnia> xover: learn category theory, will travel (to conferences)
16:51:15 <sbp> you might prefer to map OWL to an E8 structure, for example
16:51:24 * Arnia hits sbp
16:51:26 <sbp> hehe
16:51:43 <nsh> .ety synthetic
16:51:46 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "synthetic". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=synthetic
16:51:51 <nsh> .ety synthesis
16:51:54 <phenny> "1611, from L. synthesis 'collection, set, composition (of a medication),' from Gk. synthesis 'composition,' from syntithenai 'put together, combine,' from syn- 'together' + tithenai 'put, place,' from PIE base *dhe- 'to put, to do' (see factitious)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=synthesis
16:52:01 <Arnia> sbp: yes, though, the new paper will be on using the new categoricalisation (I both love and loathe that word) to provide an uncertain semantics for RDF
16:52:24 <sbp> call it a cation
16:52:28 <sbp> sod the chemists
16:52:29 <Arnia> and I hope (really hope) that this will be original enough to get me a PhD
16:54:43 <Arnia> Also interesting is the relationship to type-theory and functional programming
16:55:37 <Arnia> If one views lambda calculus as a category, and functional programs (as RESTful web-services are) as sketches over a category, one can unify the semantics of RDF and web-services
16:56:04 * sbp O_o
16:56:12 <Arnia> Equally, natural language can be described in terms of type-theoretic constructs and any type theory induces a category with sentences as sketches
16:56:24 <Arnia> Again, you can unify them in a suitable topos
16:57:05 * sbp stops Arnia before he unifies the semantics of RDF and natural language
16:57:32 <Arnia> That's the real power of the categorical approach; one can unify formalisms left, right and centre in a common framework strictly more general than predicate logic
16:57:45 <Arnia> sbp: already doing it :p
16:58:04 <edsu> what does "uncertain semantics of rdf" mean?
16:58:05 * sbp reaches for his semantic blunderbus
16:58:27 <sbp> RDF + confidence
16:58:30 * Arnia has in his hand at the moment 'Type Theoretical Grammar' by Aarne Ranta, the book which is the formal basis of the Grammatical Framework in haskell
16:58:38 <sbp> probability, all that malarkey
16:58:46 <Arnia> RDF where truth is intuitionistic rather than classical
16:59:00 <Arnia> No axiom of choice, no bivalence, no excluded middle
16:59:27 <edsu> those are classical i take it?
16:59:30 <Arnia> So you can express degree of belief (NOT probability), confidence, trust, etc.
16:59:34 <Arnia> edsu: yes
16:59:41 <Arnia> .wik intuitionistic logic
16:59:44 <phenny> "Intuitionistic logic, or constructivist logic, is the symbolic logic system originally developed by Arend Heyting to provide a formal basis for Brouwer's programme of intuitionism." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_logic
16:59:52 <edsu> neato, thanks
17:00:00 <Arnia> .wik paraconsistent logic
17:00:02 <phenny> "A paraconsistent logic is a logical system that attempts to deal with contradictions in a discriminating way." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraconsistent_logic
17:01:01 <edsu> this sounds pretty relevant to living in the open world where anyone can say anything about anything
17:01:09 * sbp reads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excluded_middle
17:01:14 <Arnia> Indeed... a point I frequently make ;)
17:01:26 <Arnia> edsu: also, see my recent talk on uncertainty
17:01:31 <sbp> Arnia: why not probability?
17:01:36 <edsu> Arnia: url?
17:02:07 <Arnia> sbp: see the difference between probability and possibility
17:02:13 <Arnia> (Lotfi Zadeh)
17:03:02 <Arnia> The framework I have could be given a probabilistic interpretation, even a frequentist one, for 1-uncertainty but that isn't intuitionistic or relativist and fails with higher-order uncertainty
17:03:07 <Arnia> edsu: one sec
17:03:19 <sbp> 'k, I think I see
17:03:24 <sbp> (yay Wikipedia)
17:06:06 <Arnia> edsu: http://myopenlink.net:8890/dataspace/Arnia/briefcase
17:06:21 <Arnia> Specifically http://myopenlink.net/dataspace/Arnia/briefcase/Arnia%27s%20Briefcase/69353
17:06:37 <sbp> "<rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" xmlns:rdfs="http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#"></rdf:RDF>"
17:06:51 <sbp> oh, my Firefox's fault I'll bet
17:08:09 <edsu> Arnia: cheers
17:08:16 <Arnia> sbp: anyway, it is important for me to be able to treat higher-order uncertainty uniformly so that I'm not just manually creating arbitrary rules
17:08:29 <sbp> hmm, need to be signed up. oh well
17:08:46 <sbp> even though it says you can do it via OpenID... tsk
17:09:08 <Arnia> sbp: I want to have all levels of uncertainty (no matter how many you actually need) follow from the same principles
17:09:31 <sbp> gotcha
17:09:48 <Arnia> That way I can induce higher-order rules from lower-order ones; I get higher-order for free
17:10:05 <Arnia> Also, I can treat uncertainty in an algebraic sense which gives me lots of lovely tools
17:10:30 <Arnia> (including the ability to generate functional programming language algorithms for free from the proofs)
17:11:49 <Arnia> With category theory you get theorems for free (for every statement, you get its dual free), algorithms for free (every constructivist proof, which most in category theory are thanks to its language, provides an algorithm) and even proofs for free (general ideas can be applied to specific circumstances)
17:13:10 <Arnia> make sense?
17:13:44 <edsu> i guess a simple elegant rule could have its uses too
17:14:17 <edsu> like what PageRank did for the web
17:14:58 <edsu> but i'm just a dabbler in logic and math, so i can't really comment on the stuff you get for free
17:15:46 <edsu> being able to turn your proofs into functional programs is a nice bonus though, i can see that much
17:16:03 <edsu> is REST really functional?
17:16:18 <edsu> have you or anyone else written about that before?
17:16:42 <edsu> is it implied in fielding's dissertation somewhere?
17:18:13 *** JibberJim (n=none@81-86-174-182.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #swhack
17:18:14 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's JibberJim!
17:20:47 <xover> Hmm. The Fielding Dissertation. Is that related to the Schwarzschild Radius?
17:21:36 <danja> sequel to The Quatermass Experiment
17:21:43 <xover> ah
17:21:56 <danja> .g chapter 5
17:21:59 <phenny> danja: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode05/usc_sup_01_5_10_I_30_5.html
17:22:08 <danja> nah
17:22:09 <danja> .g fielding chapter 5
17:22:11 <jsled> .g section 5
17:22:12 <phenny> danja: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/rest_arch_style.htm
17:22:13 *** beobal has quit (Success)
17:22:14 <phenny> jsled: http://www.sectionv.org/
17:22:16 <danja> s'better
17:23:06 * xover would have guessed Section 8…
17:28:05 <Arnia> Maybe saying that REST *is* functional is misleading. What is the case however is that since the return of a RESTful request depends only on parameters provided it can be treated as a functional calculation
17:28:29 <Arnia> But I think that's implicit in the nature of REST; I can't remember if someone else has raised the point
17:30:13 <Arnia> I do think this is a material advantage of the RESTful architecture... it means we can treat web-services as arrows in a suitable category
17:31:26 <Arnia> Being able to describe web-services in a homogenous framework, that of sketches, the same as we use to describe ontological rules is also an advantage over the OWL-S strategy
17:32:06 <Arnia> and, by choosing the interpretation category appropriately, we can gain modal logic capabilities
17:32:35 <Arnia> Remember, my weakness is big unifying ideas. I cannae resist them
17:33:41 * Arnia stops the monologue
17:35:43 *** Talliesin has quit ("Leaving.")
17:38:10 <danja> :-)
17:38:29 <Arnia> I'm a strange boy
17:44:41 <danja> oops, I think I made a boo-boo
17:45:28 <danja> trying to create a new folder in an svn repo through eclipse, when the stuff in there was checked out manually from elsewhere in the same repo
17:46:15 <danja> it's just hanging there...do I kill it, or wait for it to fall over, hmm...
17:54:23 <sbp> hmm, Gmail is borken
17:54:23 <sbp> bad google
17:55:11 <xover> Try <http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=1>.
17:55:38 <sbp> not connecting there either so far
17:55:51 <sbp> can't connect to the server. news.google.com either
17:55:51 <sbp> www.google.com is okay though
17:56:12 <xover> “Can you elaborate?”
17:56:12 <edsu> xover: is ui=1 an older version of the javascript?
17:56:18 <xover> edsu: yes
17:56:22 <edsu> xover: neato
17:56:54 <xover> A necessity on Leopard, as the default UI is teh bork in Safari 3.
17:57:49 <sbp> "Can you elaborate?" - indeed, saw that from the archives
17:57:59 <sbp> would be nice to be able to respond...
17:58:46 <sbp> I'm not sure how harsh I ought to be
17:58:54 <sbp> some considered responses:
17:58:56 <sbp> "No."
17:59:05 <sbp> "No. That would be off-topic for this list."
17:59:25 <Arnia> sbp: hm?
17:59:31 <sbp> "No. My simple answer was sufficient with respect to my example being valid web architecture."
17:59:44 <sbp> Arnia:
17:59:47 <sbp> .title http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Nov/0056
17:59:50 <phenny> sbp: httpRange-14 Adjunct: 302 is Valid for Non-Information Resources from Sean B. Palmer on 2007-11-29 (www-tag@w3.org from November 2007)
17:59:54 <sbp> that thread (it's short so far. brutally short)
18:00:34 <sbp> "I have no need to. My answer was sufficient."
18:00:55 <sbp> or I could, of course, elaborate
18:01:02 <sbp> "Yes, though my answer is already sufficient."
18:01:08 <cre8radix> 'tis done!
18:01:09 <cre8radix> :D
18:01:12 <sbp> ooh
18:01:28 * cre8radix is happy
18:01:28 <sbp> äpläädäng?
18:01:40 <cre8radix> ändääd
18:01:44 <sbp> :-)
18:02:01 <cre8radix> 72% 20MB 63.7KB/s 02:00 ETA
18:03:47 *** Arnia has quit ()
18:04:18 <sbp> "If there are such clients as do not understand 303, I would like to support them. Therefore I use 302."
18:04:26 <sbp> might be good too
18:04:38 *** karamba38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:04:39 <danja> are 10 yr old UAs common among users of the Semantic Web then?
18:04:59 <sbp> not common, no
18:05:04 <sbp> but why not support them?
18:05:37 <sbp> say I have a basic HTML page, which is Netscape 4.7 compatible
18:05:39 <cre8radix> sbp: http://tribalradix.org/tribaldatatank/?p=40
18:05:55 <sbp> should I add wacky CSS to it until it breaks Netscape 4.7?
18:06:10 <sbp> use the simplest thing which can possibly work
18:06:16 <sbp> the simplest thing is 302
18:06:23 <sbp> great! downloadaring
18:06:48 <sbp> (danja: thanks! I should cover that in the email)
18:06:57 <danja> I think it's a good idea, but doesn't seem like it follows from the line of argument you're using
18:07:21 <sbp> what doesn't seem like it follows?
18:07:43 <sbp> ah, now I can't connect to tribalradix.org
18:07:50 <sbp> looks like it might be a network problem then
18:07:51 <sbp> sigh
18:07:51 <danja> I refer the noble gentleman to the answer I gave five minutes ago.
18:09:09 <sbp> ...where? :-)
18:09:09 <sbp> can't see anything on www-tag
18:09:09 <sbp> nor in here
18:09:12 <sbp> nor on #swig
18:09:52 <danja> you quote the thing in the original mail "When interoperability with such clients is a concern"
18:10:09 <sbp> right
18:10:23 <sbp> what doesn't follow from that?
18:10:58 <danja> "is a concern" therefore "302 yadda yadda"
18:11:23 <sbp> well it is a concern
18:11:25 <sbp> therefore 302!
18:11:36 <sbp> I don't see how it doesn't follow
18:11:37 <danja> but if 10 yr old UAs aren't common among users of the Semantic Web, how is a concern..?
18:11:55 <danja> how is it a concern
18:12:15 <sbp> because I want the maximum accessibility possible
18:12:29 <sbp> I don't discriminate against older clients
18:12:36 <danja> ok, I'd suggest your elaboration goes like:
18:13:14 <danja> accessibility => concern => 302
18:13:42 <sbp> ah, good idea
18:13:52 <sbp> rather than going from the 302 to accessibility
18:14:07 <danja> heh, sorry - I think I've still got a little pickiness left over from your conformance post
18:14:23 <sbp> pickiness is beink good
18:15:24 * sbp tries getting cre8radix's MP3 via Web Archive proxy...
18:15:28 <sbp> this is not a good long-term solution...
18:15:45 <danja> ah, that was it:
18:15:48 <danja> "One of the biggest Semantic Web questions people are asking right now"
18:15:57 <danja> which people!?
18:16:01 <sbp> I gave a list!
18:16:40 <sbp> me, timbl, chimezie, and kwijibo for a start
18:17:11 <sbp> anyone who writes a Semantic Web UA should have thought about it at some point, in general
18:17:43 <sbp> which seems quite on topic for semantic-web@... :-)
18:18:43 <danja> hmm, I dn't recall seeing the question there anywhere, only "this is what an SW agent might do"
18:19:16 * danja incidentally advocates s/user-agent/agent
18:19:18 <sbp> I gave appropriate links
18:19:24 <sbp> hmm, good idea
18:19:28 <sbp> though... hmm
18:19:39 <sbp> Sandro still has me terminologically baffled
18:19:58 <sbp> as to what an SW agent might do... yes, that's what the question is
18:20:08 *** cr`x (n=zax@204-147-228-116.client.dsl.net) has joined #swhack
18:20:18 <sbp> people try to work out not what it might do, but what the optimum solution for them is
18:21:14 <sbp> timbl came up with his diagram presumably to instruct people on how to make a Semantic Web Agent
18:21:18 <sbp> for example
18:21:34 <danja> well, presumably chime & timbl's were based on what the specs say
18:21:37 <sbp> it isn't a model of any existing SWA exactly, though Tabulator is going that way
18:21:49 <sbp> no, there aren't any specifications for Semantic Web Agents
18:21:53 <sbp> that's the problem
18:22:21 <sbp> it's not specifications exactly, it's more like best practices
18:22:25 <danja> ah, and that's where we differ - I don't see the benefit in specifying that
18:22:26 <sbp> you can have best practice specifications of course though
18:22:51 <danja> ok, best practices seems more reasonable
18:22:51 <sbp> you don't? you don't think it's handy for people to go for common conformance targets?
18:22:55 <sbp> right
18:23:15 <sbp> I'm after a blend of descriptive and prescriptive, as I stated on the SWD WG thread
18:23:41 <danja> ok, take the case of browsers
18:23:41 <sbp> so specifying common conformance targets on the one hand, and documenting UA capabilities on the other
18:23:52 <sbp> okay
18:24:11 <danja> hmm, but it's still putting the user in the picture...
18:24:18 <danja> anyway, browsers
18:24:29 <sbp> so the prescriptive approach: browsers should aim at least to support XSLT 1.0 in GRDDL. the descriptive approach: what browsers support XSLT 1.0 in GRDDL? (because I want to use one which supports that)
18:24:38 <sbp> as an example
18:24:41 *** karamba38 (i=karamba3@gateway/tor/x-6da29f648917a8c0) has joined #swhack
18:24:43 <danja> they're designed to display & behave in a way consistent with the HTML & HTTP specs
18:24:49 <sbp> of course
18:26:04 <danja> but there is a huge grey area in how they interpret the specs
18:26:36 <sbp> for some specs, yeah
18:26:43 <danja> in the case of browsers, ok there's something to be gained from having some consistency - no surprise if you change browser
18:27:23 <sbp> not just that, but authors not having to worry about UA-sniffing for example
18:27:25 <danja> but the job of a SW agent isn't necessarily to be a user agent
18:27:39 <sbp> well my message was only talking about SW user agents
18:27:53 <sbp> you introduced SWA sans user
18:28:03 <danja> ok, I withdraw
18:28:09 <danja> (ploop!)
18:28:12 <sbp> heh
18:28:31 <sbp> I dunno what agents out there don't have use as some part of the chain though
18:28:42 <danja> dunno, it just seems like prematurely pinning down what things should do
18:28:44 <sbp> everything is for humans eventually...
18:28:55 <sbp> no, no, note again the balance of can and should
18:29:10 <sbp> I specifically said that doing a can survey would probably be good before issuing shoulds
18:29:42 <sbp> "what can SWUAs do now?" before "what can future ones do, therefore, to be consistent with existing ones?"
18:29:45 * danja makes wedge shape, indicates pointy end
18:29:57 <sbp> don't be threatening me with no wedges mister
18:30:15 <sbp> I have a rhombohedron here that'll make your eyes water from ten paces
18:30:25 <danja> eek!
18:30:28 <sbp> hehe
18:31:05 <sbp> I appreciate this help
18:31:11 <danja> my worry is we could end up with operating systems that all look like xerox parc circa 80's
18:31:19 <sbp> I dunno why I've sucked so much at writing up a lot of these things lately
18:31:27 <sbp> probably because I write during-the-process a lot now
18:31:36 * sbp listens to the MP3
18:31:37 <danja> it's great that you're picking at the things though
18:31:43 <sbp> aye, thanks...
18:32:31 <sbp> cre8radix: man, this is in glorious stereo
18:32:38 <danja> bit like iand's recent stuff - except you're easier to wave wdges at, not being my boss ;-)
18:32:43 <sbp> heh, heh
18:32:53 <sbp> yeah, plus he can use the rock star defence on you
18:33:03 <danja> yeah...
18:33:04 <sbp> "Pfft, what do you know now you're a rock star?"
18:33:14 * danja sits down
18:33:25 <danja> ok, what's the mp3?
18:33:47 <sbp> http://tribalradix.org/tribaldatatank/wp-content/uploads/radio_lomrange_vol1.mp3
18:34:03 <bancus> .ety grammar
18:34:06 <phenny> "1176, gramarye, from O.Fr. grammaire 'learning,' especially Latin and philology, from L. grammatica, from Gk. grammatike tekhne 'art of letters,' with a sense of both philology and literature in the broadest sense, from gramma 'letter,' from stem of graphein 'to draw [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=grammar
18:34:24 <sbp> phenny: tell thelsdj http://tribalradix.org/tribaldatatank/wp-content/uploads/radio_lomrange_vol1.mp3
18:34:26 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when thelsdj is around.
18:34:30 * danja mutes volume, waits...
18:36:24 <thelsdj> oh god
18:36:26 <phenny> thelsdj: 19:23Z <sbp> tell thelsdj http://tribalradix.org/tribaldatatank/wp-content/uploads/radio_lomrange_vol1.mp3
18:36:27 <thelsdj> what is this?
18:36:44 <sbp> it's Radio Bloemen Pret episode 2
18:37:15 <sbp> no d8uv on this one because HE ARE BUSY
18:37:24 <sbp> there'll be no d8uv on the third one either at this rate
18:37:47 <thelsdj> any episode notes coming?
18:37:54 * danja stops mp3 downloading following complaint from t'missus
18:37:59 <sbp> hehe
18:38:06 <sbp> thelsdj: yes, I'll put the script up
18:38:40 <danja> we *might* be getting adsl soon (or telecom italia have made another mistake)
18:38:53 <thelsdj> nice intro
18:39:02 <thelsdj> all intros should be like that
18:40:59 <sbp> thelsdj: http://inamidst.com/stuff/2007/radiolom01
18:47:31 <perigrin> ~ radio lom 01 ~ ::sings to the tune of Radio Free Europe::
18:49:11 <thelsdj> good selection for the outro music, i liked this tune when i listened to it previously
18:49:24 <thelsdj> tho seems like a different mix
18:49:25 <thelsdj> ooooh
18:49:30 <thelsdj> pure energy hehe
18:49:52 <thelsdj> reminds me of the ytmnd i made: http://pureenergy.ytmnd.com/
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18:53:02 <bancus> .ety cancel
18:53:05 <phenny> "1399, from Anglo-Fr. canceler, from L. cancellare 'to make resemble a lattice,' which in L.L. took on a sense 'cross out something written,' from cancelli pl. of cancellus 'lattice, grating,' dim. of cancer 'crossed bars, lattice,' a var. of carcer 'prison.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=cancel
18:53:29 <sbp> weird. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050164725.html claims to be a US patent
18:53:31 <bancus> .ety cancer
18:53:34 <phenny> "O.E., from L. 'a crab,' later, 'malignant tumor.' Greek physician Galen, among others, noted similarity of crabs to some tumors with swollen veins." - http://etymonline.com/?term=cancer
18:53:36 <sbp> but the patent number isn't valid
18:53:52 <sbp> even though I've checked the inventor names and they have filed other patents for Fujitsu
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18:58:19 * xover wonders why all the «Herbal! Helps You Sleep!» “teas” seem to have insane quantities of mint in them…
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18:58:31 <sbp> mint helps you sleep, perhaps?
18:59:06 <xover> Then why the three dozen other herbs in there. Any why not a single one without mint?
18:59:12 <xover> Really, I want to know.
18:59:13 <clsn> Hops are supposed to be soporiphic.
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19:01:07 <sbp> ah, it was only an application according to the PDF
19:11:05 <deltab> Tony Robinson traces the real Royal Family on 4 now
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19:33:47 <sbp> wow, RDFWiki was cited in http://www.cs.unibo.it/pub/TR/UBLCS/2007/2007-10.pdf
19:35:11 <edsu> what was that fsm codepoint again?
19:35:18 <sbp> .pc 咒
19:35:23 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for r'^5492\b'.
19:35:44 <edsu> sbp: thnks!
19:35:56 <sbp> ㋡
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19:43:57 <cre8radix> thelsdj: yeah... it's old school
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19:44:22 <glen_quagmire> i'm so tired. so i come here to chat
19:44:34 <sbp> hey glen_quagmire
19:44:41 <glen_quagmire> my friend's hat is gross nassechutz
19:44:52 <glen_quagmire> .w Nassechutz
19:44:54 <phenny> I couldn't find 'Nassechutz' in WordNet.
19:45:07 <glen_quagmire> hey sbp i love you
19:45:15 <sbp> naesseschutz
19:45:25 <sbp> aww, how creepy
19:45:29 <_bjoern> They are 咒 and 冗 of course.
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19:48:04 <_bjoern> .title http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article3204051.ece
19:48:08 <phenny> _bjoern: Come over here and you will be miserable, Swiss government adverts warn Africans - I