00:14:55 *** tlhiv_laptop (n=foo@c-68-63-25-78.hsd1.al.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
00:15:00 <tlhiv_laptop> sbp: are you around?
00:15:41 <tlhiv_laptop> Arnia: are you around?
00:17:32 <Arnia> Yes
00:17:52 <tlhiv_laptop> i saw on this chat log that you were having trouble with jsMath
00:17:55 <tlhiv_laptop> error code -7
00:17:58 <tlhiv_laptop> ie
00:18:03 <tlhiv_laptop> i'm having this issue
00:18:08 <tlhiv_laptop> wondering if you got it solved
00:18:30 <tlhiv_laptop> i have the latest jsMath
00:18:39 * Arnia blinks
00:18:49 <Arnia> That was a long time ago...
00:18:50 <tlhiv_laptop> jsMath examples work from his site
00:18:52 <tlhiv_laptop> ;)
00:19:00 <Arnia> Actually, when was that?
00:19:07 <Arnia> .swhack jsMath error code -7
00:19:51 <phenny> Arnia: No results for "jsMath error code -7".
00:19:59 <Arnia> hm
00:20:13 <kpreid> Arnia: not a keyword search, regexp
00:20:15 <phenny> kpreid: 27 Dec 21:57Z <Arnia> tell kpreid that OAA is LGPLed entirely now
00:20:21 <Arnia> kpreid: aha
00:20:24 <kpreid> .swhack Arnia.*-7
00:20:28 <phenny> kpreid: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-11-29#T12-41-47
00:20:39 <kpreid> .swhack Arnia.*jsMath
00:20:43 <phenny> kpreid: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-11-20#T20-26-23
00:20:45 <tlhiv_laptop> http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:r06Psz0um_YJ:swhack.com/logs/2006-05-06+jsmath+%22error+code+-7%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
00:21:01 <tlhiv_laptop> Arnia: check out my link
00:21:06 <Arnia> Wow... May 2006
00:21:18 <tlhiv_laptop> ;)
00:22:28 <tlhiv_laptop> thought you might know what was causing that
00:22:45 <Arnia> Oh, just a simple path error IIRC
00:23:33 <tlhiv_laptop> hmmm ... not sure how to fix it ...
00:25:58 <tlhiv_laptop> http://www.tlhiv.org/classes/ma497/software/jsMath/test/
00:28:37 <tlhiv_laptop> actually that's a symlink to jsMath ... here's the actual path to jsMath
00:28:46 <tlhiv_laptop> http://www.tlhiv.org/jsMath/test/
00:28:48 <tlhiv_laptop> any ideas?
00:30:04 <Arnia> Not really, no :/
00:30:17 <therethinker> .wik JSMath
00:30:21 <phenny> "Does anyone know of a source (freeware or cheap anyway) of a good quality truetype Blackboard bold font? -- SGBailey 08:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Mathematics/2007_September_15
00:30:50 <therethinker> That's nice
00:30:53 <therethinker> I bet its fixed now
00:30:55 <therethinker> .wik jsMath
00:30:58 <phenny> "Does anyone know of a source (freeware or cheap anyway) of a good quality truetype Blackboard bold font? -- SGBailey 08:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Mathematics/2007_September_15
00:31:04 <therethinker> ....damn
00:32:25 <Arnia> .g jsMath
00:32:27 <phenny> Arnia: http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsmath/
00:36:40 *** pierpa` is now known as pierpa
00:38:13 <therethinker> pierpa: did YOU make rustyspoonbot?
00:38:25 <pierpa> ehm
00:38:31 <pierpa> no
00:38:55 <Arnia> No one made rustyspoonbot
00:39:00 <Arnia> Well, possibly Monty did
00:39:01 <Monty> Wow... May 2006
00:39:08 <therethinker> Who... ... whatever
00:43:35 <tlhiv_laptop> wow ... the problem could easily be vmware
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00:46:29 <tlhiv_laptop> i'm going to test that theory ... gonna reboot into Windows
00:46:39 <pierpa> .weather lirf
00:46:42 <phenny> Cloudy, 7℃, 1018mb, Light Drizzle, Light breeze 5kt (↑) - LIRF, 2:50, 0150Z
00:46:50 <pierpa> .weather helsinki
00:46:53 <phenny> Cloudy, 0℃, 1017mb, Light air 1kt (↑) - EFHF 3:50, 0150Z
00:46:58 <perigrin> .weather kmsp
00:47:01 <phenny> Overcast ☁, 21.2℉ (-6℃), 29.75in (1004mb), Mist, Light breeze 4kt (↑) - KMSP, 19:53, 0153Z
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00:47:20 <perigrin> mist? eww that's gonna be nasty in the morning
00:47:24 <pierpa> helsinki really hot
00:49:29 <Arnia> .weather Durham, UK
00:49:33 <phenny> Cloudy, 6℃, 1026mb, Light breeze 6kt (↑) - EGNV 1:50, 0150Z
00:49:38 <crschmidt> heh:
00:49:40 <crschmidt> [[[
00:49:40 <Arnia> .weather Heathrow, UK
00:49:40 <crschmidt> To put it another way: whatever one thinks of the Debian logo policy,
00:49:40 <crschmidt> it seems harsh on OP to make him comply with a stricter interpretation
00:49:41 <crschmidt> of the DFSG than the Debian project currently applies to its own logo.
00:49:44 <phenny> Cover Unknown, 6℃, 1029mb, N CD, Light air 3kt (↑) - EGLL, 1:50, 0150Z
00:49:44 <crschmidt> ]]]
00:58:22 <xover> phenny: tell sbp http://www.dribin.org/dave/blog/archives/2007/12/28/dvcs/
00:58:24 <phenny> xover: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
00:58:52 <xover> phenny: tell sbp and http://www.dribin.org/dave/blog/archives/2007/12/30/why_mercurial/ (both via gruber)
00:58:55 <phenny> xover: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
01:00:05 <crschmidt> gah, CC-By is not Debian-free?
01:05:45 <Arnia> ... what?
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01:07:06 <crschmidt> http://people.debian.org/~evan/ccsummary.html
01:07:27 <crschmidt> "debian-legal contributors think that works licensed solely under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 license [BY] are not free according to the DFSG and should not be included in Debian."
01:07:57 * Arnia shakes his head
01:08:12 * tonybaloney wonders what Debian's requirements are for a "free" license
01:08:40 <crschmidt> http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
01:10:42 <tonybaloney> Hmm, seems simple enough to be possibly straightforward
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01:50:00 <deltab> Top Gear repeat on BBC1 now
01:54:04 <deltab> Arnia!
01:55:26 <perigrin> tonybaloney, from my experience tonight anything that makes your life "easy" isnt DFSG compatible
01:55:45 <tonybaloney> perigrin: :)
01:55:53 <perigrin> could just be me :)
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02:13:34 <Monty> yo jetscreamer!
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03:41:42 <pierpa> Monty, tell me what to do!
03:41:43 <Monty> pierpa: Okay, I'll tell me that next time I see them...
03:41:52 <pierpa> hmmm
03:42:19 <pierpa> Monty, tell pierpa what to do!
03:42:19 <Monty> pierpa: Okay, I'll tell pierpa that next time I see them...
03:42:28 <pierpa> hmmmm
03:42:29 <Monty> Hey pierpa, pierpa asked me to tell you: what to do! [Mon Dec 31 04:58:26 GMT 2007]
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03:46:14 <deltab> "In a sense you might be doing them after a job." — BBC subtitles on an interview with Jimmy Wales
03:48:06 <cr`x> fuckin facebook. 'necropoli' is not the plural of 'necropolis'
03:48:41 <Tene> You should suggest an offensive-sounding plural of facebook!
03:49:14 <cr`x> like, 'the plural of anecdote is data, the plural of facebook is invasive tabloid dipshits?'
03:52:02 <Arnia> Offensive collective nouns are more fun...
03:52:17 <Arnia> A chat of rowers, a wank of rahs, a closet of rugby players...
03:56:43 <cr`x> what's a rah?
03:58:50 <Tene> 1/8th of a wank.
04:00:45 <cr`x> ro-ger.
04:00:52 <Arnia> .wik rah
04:00:55 <phenny> "Rah is a derogatory British English slang term for a young upper-middle-class person." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rah
04:01:06 <Arnia> Rich ArseHole
04:02:01 <Arnia> Generally they tend to be the children of people who've ascended to the upper-middle classes and so have lots of money but little humility
04:02:14 <Arnia> You can be upper-middle class and rich but not a rah...
04:02:35 <deltab> "The least likely derivation, though one which is widely rumoured, is as an acronym of "Rich Arse Hole"; however, this is likely to be a modern backronym."
04:03:05 <Arnia> deltab: yes, I'm aware it is a backronym. But it sums it up pretty well
04:03:59 <Arnia> Current fashions for rahs are Jack Wills and Hackett (which is a shame, because their clothes are actually really nice... but I can't wear them without looking like a rah wannabe)
04:04:01 <Tene> I prefer my explanation.
04:04:28 <Arnia> A stink of treasure trappers...
04:04:56 <deltab> http://durham21.co.uk/archive.asp?ID=609
04:04:57 <Arnia> (that's one for the Durham people though... I wonder if Treasure Trap existed when Paul Miller was at Durham... must ask)
04:06:53 <Arnia> Whee... I remember that article
04:07:03 <Arnia> My first term in Durham
04:08:08 <Arnia> http://www.mostly-harmless.org.uk/article.php?issue=latest&article=1
04:10:31 <cr`x> yo udont have yuppies in engaland?
04:13:55 <Arnia> Yuppies aren't the same thing as rahs
04:14:05 <Arnia> And they died a death in 1987 really
04:14:22 <Arnia> (quite literally in some cases as their money evaporated into thin air)
04:18:47 <cr`x> they're still going strong over here i can tell you
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04:21:23 <Arnia> http://www.mostly-harmless.org.uk/article.php?issue=1&article=18
04:21:35 <Arnia> 'Local Pot calls Kettle Black'
04:23:01 <perigrin> Which is odd since Kjetil is a Norweigan name
04:23:14 <crschmidt> *rimshot*
04:23:36 <perigrin> Thank you thank you I'll be here all week ... try the fish!
04:24:18 <Arnia> perigrin: they all tried the fish, look what happened to them
04:24:25 <Arnia> Started vomiting eggs and all sorts
04:24:34 <perigrin> should have tried different fish
04:24:39 <Arnia> But surely there is some beef
04:25:10 <crschmidt> Where's the beef?
04:25:57 <Arnia> crschmidt: no where near Scotland at the moment
04:36:23 <Arnia> .calc 70kg in pounds
04:36:26 <phenny> 70 kilograms = 154.323584 pounds
04:36:51 <Arnia> .calc 10 stone in pounds
04:36:53 <phenny> 10 stone = 140 pounds
04:36:57 * Arnia is lazy
04:37:03 <cr`x> i coulda told you that one
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04:37:49 <Arnia> I can never remember which is 16 and which is 14
04:38:18 <Arnia> But I can only really visualise my own weight in stone
04:38:49 <Arnia> .calc 220 pounds in stone
04:38:49 <cr`x> which one is 16 then?
04:38:51 <phenny> 220 pounds = 15.7142857 stone
04:38:57 <cr`x> .calc 154 pounds in stone
04:38:58 <Arnia> Oz to a lb
04:39:00 <phenny> 154 pounds = 11 stone
04:39:32 <Arnia> I know I used to weigh about 70kg, now I weigh about 10 stone or less
04:39:45 <cr`x> yikes
04:39:57 <cr`x> get some meat on yr bones. not 220lbs then?
04:40:38 <Arnia> No
05:09:23 <crschmidt> .calc 125 pounds in stone
05:09:25 <phenny> 125 pounds = 8.92857143 stone
05:09:31 <crschmidt> ^^ me
05:10:07 <tonybaloney> .calc 180 pounds in stone
05:10:09 <phenny> 180 pounds = 12.8571429 stone
05:10:27 <tonybaloney> .calc 180 pounds in kilograms
05:10:30 <phenny> 180 pounds = 81.6466266 kilograms
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06:30:25 <bancus> .calc 16 stone in pounds
06:30:28 <phenny> 16 stone = 224 pounds
06:57:15 <_bjoern> .calc mass of the sun in stone
06:57:17 <phenny> mass of the sun = 3.13201288e29 stone
07:04:19 <pierpa> .calc mass of earth
07:04:19 <phenny> mass of Earth = 5.9742e24 kilograms
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07:55:40 <sbp> yo
07:55:41 <phenny> sbp: 02:14Z <xover> tell sbp http://www.dribin.org/dave/blog/archives/2007/12/28/dvcs/
07:55:44 <phenny> sbp: 02:14Z <xover> tell sbp and http://www.dribin.org/dave/blog/archives/2007/12/30/why_mercurial/ (both via gruber)
07:55:53 <sbp> <crschmidt> gah, CC-By is not Debian-free?
07:55:56 <sbp> even worse than that:
07:55:57 <sbp> [[[
07:56:25 <sbp> I don't know whether the problems with the CDDL that 1. it does not
07:56:25 <sbp> follow the DFSG if there are active patents on the Covered Software;
07:56:25 <sbp> 2. Matthew Garrett's comment at
07:56:25 <sbp> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/12/msg00004.html
07:56:25 <sbp> about identification, (I'm not sure if 3.2 means the notice must identify
07:56:26 <sbp> You against your wishes); are problems from your perspective.
07:56:33 <sbp> ]]] - M.J. Ray, debian-legal
07:58:27 <sbp> phenny: tell xover odd that he didn't choose darcs as one of the big three
07:58:29 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when xover is around.
08:12:21 <bancus> Did they ever determine if the GPL3 is DFSG-free?
08:12:29 <bancus> *That* was motherfucking irony.
08:12:59 <sbp> not sure
08:16:07 <sbp> hmm: http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/gpl-compatible.html
08:16:20 <sbp> ooh: http://freshmeat.net/stats/#license
08:16:59 <sbp> 1.51% use the Artistic License?
08:24:08 <sbp> ooh, Eiffel Forum License v2: Y | Y | N | Y
08:24:12 <sbp> it's quite a good one!
08:24:21 <sbp> the N in column C is a clause which can easily be deleted
08:24:28 <sbp> http://opensource.org/licenses/ver2_eiffel.php
08:24:37 <sbp> .gc "Eiffel Forum License"
08:24:39 <phenny> "Eiffel Forum License": 17,300
08:25:11 <tonybaloney> Eiffel Forum License?
08:25:26 <sbp> http://opensource.org/licenses/ver2_eiffel.php
08:25:50 <sbp> "Eiffel Forum License (EFL) 19 0.04%" - Freshmeat
08:25:55 * tonybaloney giggles about replacing standard playing cards with cards for all the free software licenses
08:26:33 <tonybaloney> Looks hopeful
08:27:43 * tonybaloney considers experiencing total existence failure this morning
08:29:56 * Arnia needs to work out how to express requirements analysis in a bayesian form
08:31:21 <lisppaste2> sbp annotated #53289 with "License Table Augmented Again" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/53289#2
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08:42:09 <_bjoern> .calc 30 GB over (10 MB / s)
08:42:11 <sbp> alright, as far as I can tell, the best thing to do would be to change the MIT license's condition
08:42:11 <phenny> (30 GB) over (10 (MB / s)) = 51.2 minutes
08:42:18 <sbp> possibly using the first clause of the Eiffel license
08:42:36 <Tene> .calc 30 GB over (10 Mb / s)
08:42:38 <phenny> (30 GB) over (10 (Mb / s)) = 6.82666667 hours
08:42:40 <sbp> but the Eiffel's clause is a bit vauge
08:42:46 <sbp> let's see if there's a better one...
08:42:49 <Tene> .calc 30 GB over (10 MiB / s)
08:42:52 <phenny> Tene: Sorry, no result.
08:45:10 <sbp> [[[
08:45:11 <sbp> Contributors may not remove or alter any copyright notices contained within the Program.
08:45:11 <sbp> Each Contributor must identify itself as the originator of its Contribution, if any, in a manner that reasonably allows subsequent Recipients to identify the originator of the Contribution.
08:45:17 <sbp> ]]] - http://opensource.org/licenses/cpl1.0.php
08:47:41 <sbp> oh, can't use that because of the capitalised words
08:47:42 <sbp> gah
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09:01:33 <sbp> the only simple method I can see for achieving what I want is to delete the second clause from the Eiffel Forum Licence v2
09:01:55 <sbp> that is, "any distribution of this package, whether modified or not, includes this license text."
09:05:13 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "Modification of the Eiffel Forum License v2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/53332
09:10:04 <sbp> hmm
09:10:36 <sbp> Copyright 2007, Sean B. Palmer, inamidst.com
09:10:36 <sbp> License: http://paste.lisp.org/display/53332/raw
09:10:36 <sbp> Or the Eiffel Forum License v2 if the above is not available.
09:13:38 *** cre8radix|off is now known as cre8radix
09:17:01 <sbp> Copyright 2007, Sean B. Palmer, inamidst.com
09:17:01 <sbp> Licensed under the Jack Cade Commemeration License.
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09:36:30 * sbp sends more emails to debian-legal
09:48:00 <sbp> woah
09:48:01 <sbp> [[[
09:48:02 <sbp> Paste number 53332: Modification of the Eiffel Forum License v2
09:48:02 <sbp> Paste number 53332:, Modification of the Eiffel Forum License v2. Pasted by:, sbp. 18 minutes ago. #swhack | Context in IRC logs. Paste contents: ...
09:48:05 <sbp> paste.lisp.org/display/53332 - 23 minutes ago - Similar pages - Note this
09:48:07 <sbp> ]]]
09:48:14 <sbp> - http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Eiffel+Forum+License%22&oe=UTF-8
09:48:19 <sbp> that's kinda scary!
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10:02:05 <sbp> .title http://teameiffel.blogspot.com/2006/08/feedback-from-osi-legal-affairs.html
10:02:08 <phenny> sbp: Team Eiffel: Feedback from OSI legal affairs
10:02:57 <sbp> bwahaha, loads of people have joined "#freenode-newyears."
10:03:07 <sbp> superb
10:03:12 <sbp> topic is: Happy New Year! Now with periods!1one
10:04:21 <sbp> hmm:
10:04:23 <sbp> .title http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/eiffel-nice-discuss/message/1078
10:04:25 <phenny> sbp: Yahoo! Groups
10:05:01 <sbp> and that was the last message there
10:05:02 <sbp> weird
10:06:47 <sbp> so it seems as though NICE is dormant or closed or something
10:06:54 <sbp> I wonder what that means for the license?
10:22:32 <_bjoern> Is it 2008 already?
10:22:41 <_bjoern> I've been too sick the past days to follow the calendar.
10:24:40 <deltab> not unless you're in Australia, NZ, or the like
10:25:27 <_bjoern> right, isn't the max timezone sth like +12:30?
10:25:45 <sbp> .title http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Dec/0118
10:25:48 <phenny> sbp: On the Eiffel Forum License, v2 from Sean B. Palmer on 2007-12-31 (www-archive@w3.org from December 2007)
10:34:29 <sbp> weird, I haven't received http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2007/12/msg00128.html yet
10:34:32 <sbp> unless it got lost somewhere
10:36:32 <sbp> [[[
10:36:33 <sbp> I am not able to see C as a reasonable requirement: including the full
10:36:33 <sbp> license text when redistributing is something that should be done anyway
10:36:33 <sbp> as a matter of clarity (so that recipients know their rights, even when
10:36:33 <sbp> they don't have an Internet connection).
10:36:38 <sbp> ]]] - http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2007/12/msg00128.html
10:40:20 <sbp> .gc "modified version of this package, you are encouraged to publicly"
10:40:23 <phenny> "modified version of this package, you are encouraged to publicly": 2
10:40:26 <sbp> ...
10:40:35 <sbp> and 11 if you expand the results
10:40:53 <sbp> the 2 are the original license, and my lisppaste
10:41:16 <sbp> what a bizarre little anomaly this license is
10:47:25 <Arnia> sbp: right can'o'worms
10:48:00 <sbp> well it's simple and straghtforward
10:48:07 <sbp> and the FSF list it as GPL compatible
10:48:10 <sbp> and the OSI have approved it
10:48:27 <sbp> but the group behind it seems to have gone AWOL
10:48:32 <sbp> or AWL perhaps
10:49:51 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "Eiffel Forum License, version 2, with pretty formatting" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/53335
10:50:25 * Arnia reads http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/gpl-compatible.html
10:50:33 * Arnia concludes that, as an argument, it sucks
10:51:46 <sbp> hmm, I thought it was a fairly good argument
10:52:23 <sbp> "people use the GPL, *widely*, and therefore if you want people to use your software, you can boost your chances by making sure that you use a GPL compatible license"
10:52:35 <sbp> that doesn't say anything about whether the GPL is a good idea
10:52:40 <sbp> or even whether licenses are a good idea
10:52:47 <sbp> I think all of this is massively absurd
10:52:59 <sbp> but I can't have phenny in debian without choosing a DFSG compatible license
10:53:16 <sbp> simple as that. an absurd social restriction, from my point of view, but it exists
10:53:39 <sbp> it's not a huge loss to me if phenny isn't in debian, and it's not a huge loss to debian
10:53:43 <sbp> but I don't like absurdities
10:53:52 <Arnia> sbp: no, it's argument is circular. "People use GPL widely because it is good. It is good because it is used widely" is how I read it
10:53:57 <sbp> so finding the EFLv2 is quite fun
10:54:01 <Arnia> -'
10:54:04 <Arnia> .title http://www.mail-archive.com/agi@v2.listbox.com/msg06593.html
10:54:07 <phenny> Arnia: RE: [agi] Write a doctoral dissertation, trigger a Singularity
10:54:09 <sbp> ah. I didn't read any value judgement of the GPL in there
10:54:19 <sbp> though I'm not particularly surprised if it did. I didn't read the whole article
10:54:31 <Arnia> "It's like a 1950's theoretical AI software manual written by Franz Bardon, using 1980's ASCII art, modernized for pseudo AGI design, while Frankensteining together diverse philosophical, psychological, linguistic and introspective thought analysis"
10:55:13 <sbp> that's hilarious
10:56:16 <sbp> wow, he's not kidding either
10:56:48 <sbp> wow, this book is hilarious
11:00:59 <Arnia> What's worst is that it is serious
11:24:27 <est> "Well, and Shakespeare wanted to write a play [...]"
11:26:33 <sbp> .head http://www.eiffel-nice.org/license/eiffel-forum-license-2.txt Last-Modified
11:26:36 <phenny> Last-Modified: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 22:02:23 GMT
11:28:25 <Arnia> .title http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex_faq.html
11:28:27 <phenny> Arnia: The Arthur T. Murray/Mentifex FAQ
11:28:31 <Arnia> Sort of sad really...
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11:34:51 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's tobbez!
11:34:51 <Monty> howdy, Morbus
11:34:51 <Monty> hey ido
11:34:51 <Monty> yo Xanthor[aw]!
11:34:52 <Monty> But what does xororand have to do with the price of fish?
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11:34:54 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
11:35:07 <tobbez> Monty: It is? I didn't notice.
11:35:07 <Arnia> This is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_man
11:35:09 <Monty> Dialekt: you like about organization of this has given control over 6
11:35:11 <Monty> good 15
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11:39:41 <Arnia> 'Murray terms this activity “meme insertion”; most everyone else considers it to be spamming.'
11:39:56 <crschmidt> sbp: for the record, having asked a couple debian developers last night
11:40:09 <crschmidt> I highly recommend you go with whatever frickin license you want to and screw debian-legal
11:40:38 <crschmidt> so long as it seems, within reasonable tolerances, to be dfsg-free (debian-legal's opinions do *not* count as reasonable tolerances)
11:42:02 * sbp creates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiffel_Forum_License
11:42:18 <sbp> crschmidt: the EFLv2 certainly seems to meet that
11:42:35 <sbp> i.e. it seems, within reasonable tolerances, to be dfsg-free
11:42:45 <sbp> chuckle at the parenthesized statement
11:44:31 <crschmidt> wow, you have a big "THIS IS COPYRIGHT" Thing on that wikipage now
11:44:49 <crschmidt> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CorenSearchBot)
11:45:47 <est> Arnia: so Murray even did this by snail mail in the previous epoch
11:47:52 <Arnia> Indeed
11:48:32 <sbp> crschmidt: yeah, saw that. just corrected it
11:48:40 <sbp> cf. my change comment on the Talk page especially
11:48:51 <sbp> (change summary, rather)
11:49:06 * crschmidt nods
11:50:26 <crschmidt> [[[
11:50:28 <crschmidt> 23:08:22 < crschmidt> so, debian-legal is essentially *only* for wankery (and advice for people who the FTP Masters have rejected due to copyright stuff?)
11:50:31 <crschmidt> 23:08:36 < gravity> Pretty much
11:50:34 <crschmidt> 23:09:06 < ari> that is correct, except for the parenthetical remark
11:50:36 <crschmidt> ]]]
11:51:21 <crschmidt> sbp: it seems that the 'copyleft' status is pretty clear with regard to eiffel?
11:52:21 * Arnia bursts out laughing
11:52:24 <Arnia> "Librarians spread deadly parasitic infections of the mind"
11:52:37 <Arnia> "Traffic to one’s website can be increased by using the “secret-decoder-ring-message” HTML tag"
11:52:51 <Arnia> "Libraries of the future will have special “pseudo-librarians” who will have “thought every possible thought” about any given book"
11:53:35 <est> "Murray created an artificial organism in 1966"
11:53:46 <est> wait..i was born in 1966!
11:53:56 <crschmidt> sbp: also, it seems clear that the gobo-doc package is released under the eiffel license v2, and it is in debian main: http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/g/gobo/gobo_3.3-6/gobo-doc.copyright
11:54:14 <crschmidt> (And was uploaded 5 years ago as of yesterday!)
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11:56:24 <est> Arnia: i love how many exercises in the book invite the reader to propagandize and create instructional materials for Murray's model
11:57:13 <Arnia> est: I find this fascinating
12:00:51 <glen_quagmire> .gc haskell
12:00:53 <phenny> haskell: 8,010,000
12:00:56 <glen_quagmire> .gc ocaml
12:00:59 <phenny> ocaml: 1,170,000
12:01:35 * Arnia hugs Haskell
12:05:13 <Arnia> No one found my joke funny then?
12:05:24 * Arnia bashes shell languages
12:05:35 <est> oh..i dint get it until you pointed it out
12:06:47 <Arnia> I'm in a punny mood today
12:19:26 <crschmidt> sbp: as I understand, however, your intention isn't to use the Eiffel License v2 as is, you plan to modify it, correct?
12:26:32 <Arnia> Interesting... http://texai.org/blog/2007/12/13/collaboration-initiated-with-the-synthetic-teammate-project/
12:52:19 <sbp> crschmidt: what do you think the copyleft status is for the EFLv2? "no" because modifications don't have to be under the EFLv2?
12:52:37 <sbp> I'm not sure whether I'm going to use it
12:52:52 <sbp> it might be that I use it in the interim anyway, just as a stopgap
12:54:13 <sbp> it's a very small license too--smaller than the BSD and MIT licenses--so even though people have to plonk it in a license.txt file, it's one of the least ridiculous routes that there is available at the moment
12:54:49 <sbp> plus it's easy for me to go back and grant people the right to not have to include the license; and if someone were to ask me whether they could do that, I'd go "yep"
12:55:08 <sbp> my biggest concern is whether there's a community for it
12:55:37 <sbp> I don't want people to be going "huh?" if they see I've licensed something under it (which is why I filled in the Wikipedia page for it)
12:56:16 <sbp> so...
12:56:26 <sbp> since gobo is in debian main and under EFLv2...
12:56:38 <sbp> I suppose that means I can fill in the DFSG compatible field on its Wikipedia page
12:56:54 <crschmidt> I owuld say that is true
12:57:00 <crschmidt> and I would say that it is definitely not copyleft
12:57:09 <crschmidt> given its similarity to BSD/MIT licenses, which are not copyleft
12:57:33 <sbp> done
12:57:45 <sbp> okay dokey, filling that in too
12:58:09 <sbp> what about "Linking from code with a different license"? I'm not even sure I understand what that field means... I was thinking about cutting it out but I guess it must mean something
12:58:34 <crschmidt> well, I assume that it's in there so that the LGPL is different from the GPL
12:58:37 <crschmidt> what does MIT say?
12:59:12 <sbp> "| linking = Yes"
12:59:13 <crschmidt> Says Yes, so I'd say Yes is good
12:59:44 <sbp> I still don't understand what it means
12:59:50 * sbp goes a browsin' to find out
13:00:30 <sbp> "Yes if software licensed under the license can be linked with software licensed under other licenses, No if not."
13:00:41 <sbp> oh, as in C linking
13:01:05 <sbp> what is the issue surrounding that?
13:01:05 <crschmidt> right
13:01:26 <crschmidt> Linking in GPL requires you to license all collected works as GPL
13:01:37 <sbp> ah, so it's something that the GPL is fussy about
13:01:40 <crschmidt> yes
13:01:47 <sbp> and if a license isn't fussy about it, then it's a simple Yes
13:01:47 <crschmidt> It's the reason for the LGPL
13:01:50 <sbp> gotcha
13:01:52 <crschmidt> Yep
13:02:17 <crschmidt> Essentially, if copyleft is no, then linking with other licenses is yes
13:02:25 <crschmidt> and if copyleft is yes, then linking with other licenses *may* be yes
13:02:32 <sbp> gotcha
13:02:34 <crschmidt> (LGPL being the canonical example)
13:02:53 <sbp> ( copyleft { linking = no } )
13:03:04 <sbp> mmm... ascii-venn
13:04:24 <sbp> the more I think about this license, the more I like it
13:04:34 <crschmidt> I think that's true, in any case. Given the plethora of licenses, it seems likely that there is at least one which disallows linking in some stupid way
13:04:40 <sbp> aye
13:04:40 <crschmidt> probably just to piss of FSF
13:04:43 <sbp> hehe
13:06:11 <Arnia> Ooh, this makes me annoyed
13:06:12 <Arnia> http://ajaxian.com/archives/the-future-of-css-and-the-end-of-30
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13:08:16 <crschmidt> Why so?
13:10:16 <sbp> .title http://www.linux.com/feature/16376
13:10:18 <phenny> sbp: Linux.com :: OSI mired in bureaucracy and backlog, critics say
13:10:21 <sbp> - on getting the EFL approved
13:13:45 * sbp adds the EFL to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_software_licences
13:16:28 <Arnia> Lots of people misunderstanding the unique constraints CSS has as a styling language (incremental rendering, cascading, etc)
13:16:37 <crschmidt> What does the proliferation report say about EFL? Anything?
13:16:49 <crschmidt> Arnia: oh, you read the comments?
13:16:54 <crschmidt> That was your first mistake :)
13:16:54 <Arnia> Yeah
13:16:59 <Arnia> I know :)
13:17:26 <Arnia> A couple of people complaining that CSS isn't like print
13:17:30 <crschmidt> grumble:
13:17:30 <crschmidt> Shutting down.
13:17:30 <crschmidt> Exception exceptions.ImportError: 'No module named whichdb' in <bound method Recno.sync of <FeatureServer.DataSource.DBM.Recno object at 0xb79dc3ac>> ignored
13:17:39 <crschmidt> Why, when I'm quitting, do I get that?
13:17:44 <crschmidt> I'm done with you, silly module!
13:17:46 <Arnia> Because print design is of course immediately transferable to web design :p
13:18:08 <crschmidt> Arnia: naturally!
13:18:57 * Arnia forces everyone to use a four column layout
13:21:22 <Arnia> "I get that CSS is meant to style single-column documents, and for that it is great, but the reality is that web 2.0 is not built out of single-column documents. "
13:21:32 <Arnia> -- ibid
13:24:55 <sbp> phenny: ask nslater if he thinks the Eiffel Forum License, version 2, is a good interim choice. references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiffel_Forum_License and http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2007/12/msg00126.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Dec/0118
13:24:55 <phenny> sbp: yeah, sure, whatever
13:25:01 <sbp> NO YUO
13:25:23 <sbp> crschmidt: it says you should use the BSD license instead
13:25:40 <sbp> and indeed the Eiffel community wondered whether, therefore, they should use the MIT license
13:25:49 <sbp> and there was a conflagration about it
13:26:04 <sbp> see http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/eiffel-nice-discuss/message/1078
13:26:15 <sbp> but that was in 2006, and the group seems to have been dormant since
13:26:23 <sbp> which is why I wrote http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Dec/0118
13:30:43 * crschmidt nods
13:39:28 <sbp> just writing up all this as an article now
13:58:56 <sbp> .unicode right arrow
13:58:57 <phenny> U+2192 RIGHTWARDS ARROW (→)
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14:02:52 <Arnia> .unicode squiggly
14:02:53 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for "SQUIGGLY".
14:02:59 <Arnia> bah
14:03:45 <crschmidt> .cp squi
14:03:46 <phenny> 21DC: LEFTWARDS SQUIGGLE ARROW (⇜)
14:03:49 <phenny> 21DD: RIGHTWARDS SQUIGGLE ARROW (⇝)
14:03:49 <sbp> .unicode sq... heh
14:03:52 <phenny> 2337: APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL SQUISH QUAD (⌷) [...]
14:03:52 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for "SQ... HEH".
14:05:00 <Arnia> I like the sqiggle arrows
14:05:24 <Arnia> I think they make a nice notation for uncertain inference too
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14:12:10 <xover> .title http://jetlagged.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/28/the-airport-security-follies/index.html
14:12:12 <phenny> xover: 09:14Z <sbp> tell xover odd that he didn't choose darcs as one of the big three
14:12:13 <phenny> xover: The Airport Security Follies - Jet Lagged - Air Travel - Opinion - New York Times Blog
14:12:35 <xover> Very well written, and by a pilot no less.
14:14:11 <xover> .title http://www.boingboing.net/2007/12/29/steal-this-film-part.html
14:14:16 <phenny> xover: Steal This Film, Part II: the Internet makes us into copiers - Boing Boing
14:14:30 <xover> Now With More AaronSw! :-)
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14:38:52 <cre8radix> they wanna have adhoc wlan on airports
14:38:54 <cre8radix> giggle
14:39:07 * cre8radix is the man in the middle
14:42:08 * Arnia attacks cre8radix
14:42:17 <cre8radix> hrhr
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15:17:08 <sbp> crschmidt, et al.:
15:17:10 <sbp> .title http://inamidst.com/stuff/eiffel/
15:17:12 <phenny> sbp: Why The Eiffel Forum License is Awesome
15:17:19 <sbp> not complete yet, but readable
15:17:33 <sbp> feedback appreciated
15:19:51 * crschmidt nods
15:35:54 * sbp adds various acknowledgements of thanks at least
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15:59:10 <Morbus> hrm.
15:59:26 <Morbus> anyone know of a way to strip exif data from the command line? or via applescript/autormator in OS X?
16:00:35 <Morbus> http://meyfroidtresearch.wordpress.com/2007/04/07/using-jhead-to-prepare-jpegs-for-website-use-revisited/
16:03:48 <Morbus> and in macports too. good.
16:04:43 <sbp> Morbus: yes, I use ExifTool
16:04:51 <sbp> ExifTool is a) perl, and b) superb
16:05:01 <Morbus> "jhead -purejpg" seems to be nice
16:05:02 <sbp> you do: exiftool -all= example.jpg, I think
16:05:13 <sbp> fair enough
16:05:20 <Morbus> exiftool is also in macports.
16:05:48 <sbp> and if you download it, you don't even have to build and install it
16:05:50 <Morbus> exiftool looks nicer.
16:05:51 <sbp> it just works straight away
16:06:06 <sbp> it's wonderfully designed, and the documentation is exhaustive
16:06:18 * Morbus uninstalls jhead.
16:06:31 <Morbus> sudo port install exiftool
16:06:34 <Morbus> whoops.
16:06:52 <Morbus> wait, no it's not.
16:06:54 <Morbus> eh?
16:07:04 <Morbus> locate exiftool
16:07:04 <Morbus> /opt/local/var/macports/sources/rsync.macports.org/release/ports/graphics/exiftool
16:07:09 <Morbus> sudo port install exiftool
16:07:09 <Morbus> Error: Port exiftool not found
16:07:14 <sbp> ...
16:07:16 <sbp> weird
16:07:31 <sbp> try port selfupdate && port sync?
16:08:21 <Morbus> ah: http://db.macports.org/port/show/1134
16:08:25 <Morbus> potentially.
16:08:57 <Morbus> yeah, that may be it. i'm outta date. new macports version.
16:10:23 <Morbus> sbp: so -all= does iptc and jpeg header comments, and so forth?
16:12:36 <Morbus> gah. how do you stop it from making _original? i have 1700 files to process.
16:12:36 <sbp> yes, to a minimal extent. it still, for example, embeds size information
16:13:33 <sbp> Morbus: -overwrite_original
16:16:00 <Morbus> thanks.
16:16:16 <danja> Morbus!
16:16:28 <danja> are you licensed?
16:16:34 <Morbus> licensed for what?
16:17:35 <Morbus> 2900 image files updated
16:17:35 <Morbus> 3 image files unchanged
16:17:35 <Morbus> 41 files weren't updated due to errors
16:17:37 <Morbus> heh.
16:17:50 <danja> sbp's issuing licenses - you can choose between chip insert, tattoo or Eiffel Forum License
16:18:19 <Morbus> heh/
16:18:59 <Morbus> huh.
16:19:07 <Morbus> i saved 5 megs by removing metadata from 2900 files.
16:20:26 <xover> .ety bar
16:20:28 <phenny> "c.1175, 'stake or rod of iron used to fasten a door or gate,' from O.Fr. barre, from V.L. *barra 'bar, barrier,' which some suggest is from Gaulish *barros 'the bushy end,' but OED regards this as 'discredited' because it 'in no way suits the sense.' Bar code first [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=bar
16:20:52 <sbp> danja: hehe
16:21:25 <xover> .ety tavern
16:21:28 <phenny> "c.1297 (in Anglo-Fr. from 1286), 'wine shop,' later 'public house' (c.1440), from O.Fr. taverne (1256) 'shed made of boards, booth, stall,' also 'tavern, inn,' from L. taberna 'shop, inn, tavern,' originally 'hut, shed,' possibly by dissimilation from *traberna, from [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=tavern
16:24:27 <xover> Hmm. License ID as barcode as tattoo… Ooh. Or the CC symbols!
16:25:49 <sbp> I still say there should be a unicode character
16:26:27 <sbp> U+3151 EIFFEL FORUM LICENSE VERSION TWO
16:26:56 <sbp> (3151 =ish EIFL)
16:27:30 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<danja> recommended action = price < £30 ? buy : ask politely"
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16:41:34 <sbp> hmm: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22hereby+also+granted+to+distribute+binary+programs%22&num=100&hl=en&safe=off&filter=0
16:51:37 <glen_quagmire> what is it?
16:51:50 <glen_quagmire> effile
16:52:00 <crschmidt> presumably a string specifically in eiffel and not other licenses
16:52:09 <sbp> exactly
16:52:17 <glen_quagmire> eiffel is a french language
16:52:25 <glen_quagmire> ocaml is a french language
16:52:37 <sbp> yeah, that's another bonus
16:52:56 <glen_quagmire> so that license is better?
16:53:08 <sbp> it's the least sucky that I've been able to find so far, yep!
16:53:26 <glen_quagmire> oh it means you can distribute binary only without source
16:54:02 <sbp> what does?
16:54:09 <sbp> oh, paragraph 2?
16:54:11 <crschmidt> the quote you were searching for
16:54:13 <glen_quagmire> If the binary program depends on a modified version of this package, you are encouraged to publicly release the modified version of this package.
16:54:24 <glen_quagmire> _encouraged_ not _forced_
16:54:28 <sbp> ah
16:54:46 <sbp> yeah, I don't know why they included the encouragement sentence
16:54:49 <sbp> waste of words
16:55:02 <glen_quagmire> .ety encourage
16:55:05 <phenny> "1483, from O.Fr. encouragier, from en- 'make, put in' + corage (see courage). 'As a general rule, Providence seldom vouchsafes to mortals any more than just that degree of encouragement which suffices to keep them at a reasonably full exertion of their powers.' [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=encourage
16:55:20 <sbp> imagine how short it'd be without that and the second bullet point!
16:55:38 <glen_quagmire> oh that was the entire liecnse
16:55:43 <crschmidt> sbp: certainly there are a number of packages distributed under the eiffel license
16:55:49 <glen_quagmire> doesn't license need address and telephone number?
16:56:01 <crschmidt> no
16:56:05 <crschmidt> why would it?
16:56:16 <glen_quagmire> /* Quag Lincense : call me ladies ***-***-**** */
16:56:31 <sbp> I think I found that there were 19 on... Freshmeat I think
16:56:52 * sbp -> http://freshmeat.net/stats/#license
16:56:58 <glen_quagmire> even WTFlicense has address
16:57:11 <sbp> "Eiffel Forum License (EFL) 19 0.04%"
16:57:15 <sbp> presumably that's v.2
16:57:25 <sbp> -> http://freshmeat.net/browse/819/
16:57:31 <glen_quagmire> 14 rue de Plaisance, 75014 Paris, France
16:57:39 <glen_quagmire> so, all good licenses come from France
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16:59:44 <sbp> EiffelStudio, Market Analysis System, xplain2sql, EiffelMedia, Eiffel Wrapper Generator, GOBO Eiffel, Kniffel, ECLI, EPDF, eformmail, EiffelFox, Referendum, Canvas Widget, eglade, The ELJ Project, eXML, Yet Another Eiffel Sockets, GDFP, EDA
16:59:53 <sbp> almost all of those things are Eiffel things, not too surprisingly
17:00:09 <sbp> oh, there are twenty. for2html too
17:01:34 <sbp> EiffelStudio, xplain2sql, EiffelMedia, eformmail, and eglade are the only ones to have been modified this year. most of the others are very old, circa 2002
17:03:08 <sbp> http://freshmeat.net/faq/view/48/#819 references EFL v.1
17:08:31 <sbp> lots of Eiffel stuff here as well: http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=site%3Asourceforge.net+%22Eiffel+Forum+License%22&btnG=Search
17:08:35 <sbp> again, not particularly surprising!
17:12:31 <sbp> hehe: http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2611170071231.gif
17:26:08 <sbp> .gc +boarlet +boarlets
17:26:10 <phenny> +boarlet +boarlets: 8
17:28:57 <sbp> .compare +boarlet +boarlets
17:29:00 <phenny> +boarlets (268), +boarlet (213)
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18:02:14 *** pierpa (n=user@host76-224-dynamic.32-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
18:27:06 <danja> bleah, data cleaning is knackering
18:28:11 <danja> sbp, http://tinyurl.com/3x8bv8
18:28:32 <danja> FILTER regex(?content, "sbp")
18:28:56 <danja> still incomplete, and the content escaped html is really horrible
18:29:15 <danja> http://danja.talis.com/blogdata/sparql-editor.html
18:30:16 <danja> nasty xml-based chunker still running over the blog data rdf/xml, uploading in 100k chunks
18:33:14 *** libby (n=libby@77-101-209-30.cable.ubr04.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
18:59:12 <linuxperv> .ety image
18:59:14 <phenny> "c.1225, 'artificial representation that looks like a person or thing,' from O.Fr. image, earlier imagene (11c.), from L. imaginem (nom. imago) 'copy, statue, picture, idea, appearance,' from stem of imitari 'to copy, imitate' (see imitate)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=image
19:00:45 *** Jibbler (n=Jibbler@jibble.plus.com) has joined #swhack
19:07:11 *** libby has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:10:42 <glen_quagmire> .ety quagmire
19:10:45 <phenny> "1579, from obsolete quag 'bog, marsh' + mire." - http://etymonline.com/?term=quagmire
19:10:58 <glen_quagmire> .w quagmire
19:11:00 <phenny> quagmire n. 1: A soft wet area of low-lying land that sinks underfoot.
19:11:10 <glen_quagmire> .w quag
19:11:12 <phenny> quag n. 1: A soft wet area of low-lying land that sinks underfoot.
19:11:17 <glen_quagmire> .w mire
19:11:20 <phenny> mire n. 1: A soft wet area of low-lying land that sinks underfoot
19:11:22 <phenny> mire v. 1: Entrap
19:11:24 <phenny> mire v. 2: Cause to get stuck as if in a mire.
19:12:35 *** Jibbler|gone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:18:34 <thelsdj> are there any other words like that?
19:19:55 <glen_quagmire> yah. george w. bush
19:20:02 <glen_quagmire> george = president
19:20:06 <glen_quagmire> w. = president
19:20:10 <glen_quagmire> bush = president
19:21:27 <thelsdj> i would argue that george doesn't have that meaning, not as much as w and bush atleast
19:23:41 <glen_quagmire> i almost got a girlfriend today from craigslist.org
19:23:49 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: how much for?
19:24:04 <glen_quagmire> but i did n't have metrocard so i could not meet her
19:24:19 <glen_quagmire> so, that'd be $2.00 (per subway ride)
19:24:45 <glen_quagmire> man this is the last day of 2007 and i woke up at 2am
19:25:36 <Arnia> Last three hours fifteen minutes
19:25:46 <Arnia> Coming up to the magic 12 New Years
19:26:11 <Arnia> Well... actually, we're fifteen minutes away from 10 New Years but hey
19:26:34 <thelsdj> +2 new years?
19:26:46 <thelsdj> or +3?
19:27:47 <Arnia> Hm... sorry, 9 New Years
19:28:13 * Arnia can't count :p
19:28:25 <glen_quagmire> i have no idea
19:28:31 <glen_quagmire> there's 1 new year
19:29:06 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: well, there is a new year every year
19:29:14 <Arnia> glen_quagmire: but it happens 24 times
19:29:52 <thelsdj> more than 24 i'd say
19:29:58 <thelsdj> aren't there some half time zones?
19:30:01 <glen_quagmire> oh across the earth
19:30:23 <glen_quagmire> .gc timezones
19:30:26 <phenny> timezones: 1,330,000
19:30:27 <Arnia> thelsdj: I count them has 'half' or 'quarter' new years :)
19:30:52 <glen_quagmire> new years is deprecated
19:31:00 <Arnia> ...
19:31:01 <glen_quagmire> the best holiday is sunday
19:31:23 <Arnia> For those who want a bookish end to the year: http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/quant-ph/9803086
19:32:43 <Arnia> I need some supper...
19:33:34 <glen_quagmire> that's a good observation
19:34:51 <Arnia> And for Halpern's discussion of Cox's Theorem: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/halpern/papers/cox1.pdf
20:16:15 *** wkearney99 (n=wkearney@dmz.wkearney.com) has joined #swhack
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20:37:57 <sbp> YO
20:42:22 <Arnia> YOYO
20:42:29 <cre8radix> YOYOYO
20:42:30 <Arnia> Woo, physicist bitch-fight fun
20:42:36 <sbp> where?!
20:42:41 <cre8radix> ;P
20:42:48 <Arnia> .title http://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm
20:42:51 <phenny> Arnia: The Everett Interpretation
20:42:55 <cre8radix> didya check the 24c3 vids?
20:43:15 <sbp> not yet
20:43:20 <cre8radix> do so
20:43:21 <sbp> thought they were audio in fact. heh
20:43:24 <Arnia> I feel like writing a rebuttal of some of his rhetorical techniques
20:43:27 <cre8radix> 'tis great stuff
20:43:37 <sbp> "Does many-worlds violate Ockham's Razor?"
20:43:40 <cre8radix> there's also audio
20:43:59 <sbp> hmm, Wikipedia lists that as an acceptable variant
20:44:47 *** _bjoern (n=bjoern@dslb-084-057-230-083.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
20:45:20 <sbp> _bjoern!
20:45:38 <Arnia> "Quantum Logic. Undoubtedly the most extreme of all attempts to solve the QM measurement problem. Apart from abandoning one or other of the classical tenets of logic these theories are all unfinished (presumably because of internal inconsistencies)."
20:45:45 <Arnia> E_TOO_BIG_AN_ASSUMPTION
20:45:56 <Arnia> E_NO_KNOWLEDGE_OF_LOGIC
20:46:16 <Arnia> E_SEE_AN_INTUITIONIST
20:46:33 <_bjoern> TEH SOVIETS ARE HERE
20:49:08 <sbp> they want to get in on the New Year's action early?
20:49:14 <sbp> with all the hot German chixxerz?
20:49:54 <_bjoern> I don't know, I'm taking this war off.
20:50:12 <sbp> what are you taking it off of?
20:50:30 <sbp> have you beek taking New Year's Eve flashback pills?
20:50:33 <Arnia> sbp: well, such satire is hard to explicitly express
20:50:37 <sbp> BEEK
20:51:50 <Arnia> Huh...
20:53:09 <Arnia> "Reading of old papers sometimes opens unexpected views. Although it is well known, for instance, that P.A.M. Dirac was the first to introduce explicitly the concept of negative energy,
20:53:10 <Arnia> "the number of those who know his remarks about negative probability — closely related to negative energy and invented simultaneously — seems to be very restricted.
20:53:10 <Arnia> "In one of his papers on this subject [1] for example, “probability” appears in connexion with the adjective “negative” not less than 20 times, not considering the appearance in numerous equations."
20:53:20 <Arnia> -- http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0370-1573(86)90110-9
20:53:50 <_bjoern> Off the List_of_wars_I_wasn't_too_sick_to_participate_in list.
20:54:13 <sbp> .g List_of_wars_I_wasn't_too_sick_to_participate_in
20:54:15 <phenny> List_of_wars_I_wasn't_too_sick_to_participate_in: sorry, no results were found.
20:54:27 <sbp> rats, hoped it would be an Uncyclopaedia entry
20:54:31 <sbp> you should make it one!
20:54:37 <crschmidt> .t sbp
20:54:40 <phenny> Mon Dec 31 22:11:22 GMT 2007
20:54:44 <sbp> this is accurate
20:56:25 <Arnia> I need some sherry
20:57:04 <Arnia> I think I've got the means to provide a higher-order uncertain semantics on models of RDF graphs
20:57:38 <Arnia> But I now need to provide an experimental justification, since apparently mathematical proof isn't enough any more :p
20:57:39 <sbp> does it involve anything quantum?
20:57:57 <Arnia> sbp: hah... see the DOI link I published
20:58:02 <Arnia> published? posted?
20:58:03 <crschmidt> you changed the outcome by looking at it
20:58:05 <Arnia> Bah
21:01:40 <Arnia> 'According to Szent—Gyorgyi discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.' -- ibid
21:02:45 <Arnia> Negative temperatures?!
21:02:52 <sbp> temperatures?! no way
21:02:56 <sbp> not in kelvin
21:03:02 <Arnia> Yeah
21:03:05 <kpreid> heh heh
21:03:06 <Arnia> In kelvin
21:03:14 <kpreid> it makes more sense as the reciprocal
21:03:21 <Arnia> .g "negative temperatures"
21:03:24 <phenny> Arnia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature
21:03:28 <Arnia> kpreid: well, ok
21:03:44 <Arnia> But it still follows from the argument in the paper so I'll accept it :)
21:04:19 <Arnia> ' in fact, temperatures colder than absolute zero are impossible. Rather, a system with a negative temperature is hotter than the same system with an infinite temperature.'
21:04:23 <kpreid> especially if you consider the effort required to approach those points...
21:04:25 <Arnia> (from the above)
21:06:39 <Arnia> I love physicists. They never cease to twist the world into a new and unexpected form, and then argue over the superiority of the form they've developed for the rest of their lives
21:07:14 <Arnia> The mathematician's approach is perhaps a little more sensible. If you have a choice between two approaches to a domain, pick both.
21:08:43 <Arnia> A computer scientist is just a constructivist mathematician, so the same remarks apply with the restriction that 'if your proofs don't describe how to build an example, then it might as well not exist'. The 'no-junk' approach to the universe.
21:09:48 *** cr`x (n=zax@user-12lcqh4.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #swhack
21:14:09 <_bjoern> hmm http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Image:WeirdAd.png
21:16:40 <sbp> nô yuô
21:18:25 <Arnia> "The present state of physics indicates that at least one of the following three axioms cannot be upheld:
21:18:25 <Arnia> "(1) The principle of cause and result, or the definite direction of the time-arrow, (2) the principle of
21:18:26 <Arnia> "separability, i.e., the limited velocity of any interaction, (3) the concept of an observer-independent, precisely defined reality" -- http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0370-1573(86)90110-9
21:18:50 *** MorbusIff (n=morbus@c-24-34-64-110.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
21:20:18 * crschmidt was rather surprised when he got this in his mailbox: http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3:mss:15183:200712:klgendemfljkgbjkaoah
21:21:21 <sbp> wow
21:24:21 <Arnia> That's professional...
21:31:40 <Arnia> “It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.” -- Albert Einstein
21:31:41 * crschmidt wonders if any Swhack users are gpg users.
21:31:48 * Arnia likes that quote
21:32:08 <Arnia> Appeals to my inner semanticist
21:32:12 <sbp> crschmidt: I'm thinking about using ssh-keys to sign stuff and whatnot
21:32:15 <Arnia> (and my outer semanticist too)
21:32:22 <sbp> don't see why I should have to maintain more than one keypair
21:32:39 <sbp> especially since I only have one that I've been using consistently and frequently for years
21:32:50 <clsn> Ages agone I used to be really into PGP and sign all my outgoing email.
21:32:58 <clsn> (this was pre-gpg)
21:33:05 <crschmidt> ssh-keys don't have a web-of-trust that they can build on?
21:33:19 <sbp> they could do though, in RDF
21:33:29 <sbp> which seems like a better web-of-trust framework to bet on
21:33:37 * crschmidt shrugs.
21:33:55 <crschmidt> At the moment I'm primarily interested in gpg as the gpg w-o-t is the way that debian does things
21:33:57 <sbp> I... oh right, I forgot who I was talking to :-)
21:34:05 <sbp> ahaings
21:34:19 * sbp is glad that Noah will be managing all this junk for him
21:34:25 <crschmidt> 'rdf sucks', etc.
21:34:26 <sbp> except for the license. heh
21:34:29 <sbp> hehe, yeah
21:34:46 <cr`x> yeah i was into pcp a while back too
21:34:52 <sbp> ...
21:34:57 <cr`x> that shit will take a hold of you though
21:35:01 <cr`x> oh what?
21:35:08 <sbp> <Man> Except you, marge. You tested positive for crack and pcp.
21:35:58 <sbp> Arnia: that quote (symphony) reminds me of... that dude
21:36:01 <sbp> Ezra Pound
21:36:05 <sbp> and T.S. Eliot!
21:36:09 <sbp> fighting in the captain's tower
21:36:15 <sbp> oddly enough I'm listening to that right now
21:36:21 <sbp> I wonder if that's why it reminded me of that
21:36:24 <perigrin> That would be a match
21:36:26 <sbp> ABC of Reading is the book
21:36:34 <sbp> Einstein disguised as Robin Hood
21:36:38 <sbp> with his memories in his trunk
21:36:42 <sbp> passed this way an hour ago
21:36:46 <sbp> with his friend, a jealous monk
21:36:57 <perigrin> I'd put odds on Ezra but I really know that when it came down to it he'd chicken out and T.S. would just kick his ass.
21:37:05 <sbp> he looked so immaculate as he bummed a cigarette
21:37:18 <sbp> and he went off sniffing drainpipes and reciting the alphabet
21:38:31 <sbp> does anyone really know what the T.S. stands for?
21:38:37 <sbp> I know what Ezra stands for
21:38:44 <JibberJim> timothy standpipe
21:38:46 <perigrin> facsisim
21:38:48 <sbp> thanks
21:39:05 <perigrin> .wik T.S. Elliot
21:39:08 <phenny> "Thomas Stearns Eliot, OM (September 26, 1888 – January 4, 1965), was a poet, dramatist and literary critic." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.S._Elliot
21:39:29 <Arnia> everyone's a critic
21:39:34 <sbp> .wik Ezra Pound
21:39:35 <crschmidt> I'm not!
21:39:37 <phenny> "Ezra Weston Loomis Pound (October 30, 1885 – November 1, 1972) was an American expatriate poet, critic and intellectual who was a major figure of the Modernist movement in early-to-mid 20th century poetry." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Pound
21:39:40 <sbp> hey, he was an OM, like timbl
21:39:53 <Arnia> crschmidt: Don't criticise me :p
21:39:59 <crschmidt> Informing.
21:40:08 <sbp> funny, we've had an OM member in Swhack
21:40:12 * Arnia hums a Pretender's song
21:40:18 <crschmidt> OM?
21:40:18 <sbp> doesn't sound like something a sensible universe would allow
21:40:22 <sbp> Order of Merit
21:40:25 <crschmidt> Ah.
21:40:51 <perigrin> timbl also wrote a book!
21:40:53 <Arnia> sbp: maybe we will all gain OM
21:41:07 <sbp> well there are 61 of us, so we can't all gain it
21:41:11 <perigrin> though I doubt they'll make a musical of ot
21:41:11 <sbp> well, not simultaneously
21:41:20 <Arnia> That's a scary thought... swhack defining intellectual reality
21:41:21 <perigrin> er it
21:41:22 <sbp> and I suppose none of the bots can get it
21:41:35 <perigrin> why not?
21:41:43 <sbp> ah here we go, "fighting in the captain's tower"
21:41:55 <sbp> while calypso singers laugh at them, and fisherman hold flowers
21:42:01 <perigrin> isn't it just on appointment of the queen?
21:42:02 <sbp> good stuff
21:42:11 <sbp> yes, but the numbers are limited
21:42:27 <perigrin> right but what precludes bots?
21:42:51 <sbp> 'The Order is limited to the Sovereign and twenty-four members, but additional foreigners may be added as "honorary members." From the beginning the Order was open to women; Florence Nightingale was the first woman to receive the Order, in 1907.'
21:43:03 <sbp> nothing, I suppose. they might be classed as foreigners
21:43:05 <perigrin> it would I suppose reduce the available spaces
21:43:28 <perigrin> hh yeah thats a nice way in
21:43:32 <perigrin> er ah
21:43:59 <Arnia> How many Britons are there in the channel?
21:44:00 * perigrin sighs ... typing while holding a grumpy baby is hard
21:44:12 <Arnia> perigrin: get the baby to type. Might cheer it up
21:44:20 <perigrin> "oo are the Britons?"
21:44:21 <_bjoern> I send greetings from 2008 to 2007. It says it hates you just as much as 2007 did.
21:44:32 <sbp> I count six
21:44:34 <_bjoern> I guess that's why people are shooting at it. Does not seem to work though.
21:44:51 <sbp> Arnia, danja, deltab, JibberJim, Jibbler, sbp
21:45:01 <perigrin> greetngs from the Future!
21:45:08 <sbp> _bjoern!
21:45:11 * _bjoern waves to the past
21:45:12 <sbp> hellos Mr. 2008 Person
21:45:21 <perigrin> dahut was born in scotland
21:45:30 <sbp> dahut: SON OF A HAGGIS
21:45:32 <perigrin> Though of American parentage
21:45:45 <_bjoern> then we should kill it at once!
21:45:51 <sbp> hmm
21:46:00 <sbp> I don't know what to tell 2008 from 2007 really
21:46:05 <sbp> otherwise I'd give you a message to send to it
21:46:20 <sbp> "bite Morbus's shiny metal ass", perhaps
21:46:22 <perigrin> "we're coming to get you"?
21:46:26 <sbp> chuckle
21:46:29 <Arnia> _bjoern: tell 2008 that 2007 is sending Langoliers after it
21:46:35 <_bjoern> k
21:46:45 <sbp> tell it an anecdote involving Mr. Legjakes
21:46:51 <_bjoern> Lvl 7, 13 CAD. Insert duck plz.
21:47:06 <perigrin> bv y hrghgjilu;kjh
21:47:12 <Arnia> .calc 13 CAD in whatever currency they use in Nigeria
21:47:15 <phenny> Arnia: Sorry, no result.
21:47:15 <perigrin> nope he's still grumpy
21:47:32 <sbp> Mr. Legjakes had a pom-pom named Simon that he used to take for walks in lieu of his siamese dog when it rammed into his ankle. the pom-pom got dragged through a puddle once and turned from a kind of maroon pink into a very pronounced shit brown
21:47:33 <_bjoern> I noticed ryan is still checking in
21:47:39 <sbp> yup!
21:47:59 <Arnia> Oh dear... we have a groupie...
21:48:08 <sbp> groupie is lvl 10 plz
21:48:08 <perigrin> ?
21:48:12 <sbp> 189 CAD
21:48:14 <sbp> for u
21:48:17 <sbp> becoz u friend
21:48:18 <wkearney99> mud and pompoms? Just WTF are you drinking over there?
21:48:25 <sbp> nothing yet!
21:48:27 <Arnia> sbp: cuttin' yer own throat there
21:48:29 <_bjoern> .eu beverages.
21:48:43 <sbp> 190 CAD for u becoz u insult
21:49:00 <_bjoern> insult iz 1 CAD ?
21:49:00 <sbp> absinthe and duck effluvia
21:49:05 <sbp> yah
21:49:16 <_bjoern> I'm rich!
21:49:20 <sbp> hehe
21:49:21 * Arnia gets some quackers... er... crackers
21:49:34 <sbp> animal quackers, piece of cake
21:49:39 <Arnia> Miaow!
21:49:58 *** wkearney99 has quit ("Leaving.")
21:50:08 <Arnia> Right... for my next trick I'm going to show that the semantics of RDF is a co-monad
21:50:13 <_bjoern> Right now I try not to move to keep what's already inside in my stomach.
21:50:13 * Arnia demonstrates
21:50:40 <Arnia> _bjoern: are you hungry?
21:50:53 * Arnia hands _bjoern a box of wafer-thin After Eights
21:50:58 <deltab> Arnia: can you stop it turning into a common ad, though?
21:51:02 <_bjoern> quite, but I'm also sick and drunk and very very tired
21:51:15 *** MorbusIff has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
21:51:16 <Arnia> deltab: ...
21:51:17 <_bjoern> that's probably not good for my stomach
21:51:31 <Arnia> deltab: you should be ashamed of yourself for that pun
21:51:32 <sbp> why mousieur, with these After Eights you are really spoiling us!
21:51:38 * Arnia shifts deltab's hyphens
21:53:07 <sbp> dang man, it's...
21:53:07 <sbp> .tock
21:53:10 <phenny> "Mon, 31 Dec 2007 23:09:54 GMT" - tycho.usno.navy.mil
21:53:17 <sbp> 50 to 2008
21:53:40 <_bjoern> equals 2058
21:53:40 <sbp> I think I need to type 2008 a few times to practice. 2008 2008 2008 2008 2008 2008 2008. yeah mang!
21:53:49 <sbp> .calc 50:2008
21:53:51 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, no result.
21:53:55 <sbp> .calc 50 to 2008
21:53:58 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, no result.
21:53:59 <sbp> you suck, .calc
21:54:11 <sbp> can't calculate a simple ratio
21:54:45 <Arnia> 202020202020202020202020202020202020202020202020
21:54:57 * Arnia gets in his TARDIS
21:54:57 <sbp> yay: <biabot> "http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2007/12/msg00129.html" led 86.130.*.* to http://inamidst.com/stuff/eiffel/
21:56:13 <sbp> pullin' in the rubes
21:56:55 <Arnia> .gc "pullin' in the rubes"
21:56:57 <phenny> "pullin' in the rubes": 0
21:56:59 <Arnia> .gc "pullin' in the runes"
21:57:02 <phenny> "pullin' in the runes": 0
21:57:07 <Arnia> .gc "pullin' in the rails"
21:57:09 <phenny> "pullin' in the rails": 0
21:57:19 <Arnia> .gc "pullin' in the aisles"
21:57:22 <phenny> "pullin' in the aisles": 0
21:57:35 <Arnia> .gs pullin' in the *
21:57:38 <phenny> dough (5), garage (3), skiff ofra (2), punter (2), f warwagon (2), f (2), determina (2), chair (2), cam choob (2), yuppie, young, whaler, western hemisphere, west, weak one, upper, underage, trick, trav, station, spot, sponsor, social, shortie, sheet, school, right direction, reverend react, rein, q
21:58:18 <sbp> .gc "panamanian moon"
21:58:20 <phenny> "panamanian moon": 3,980
21:59:09 <sbp> cam choob?
21:59:15 <sbp> pullin' in the cam choob?
21:59:25 *** sbp changed the topic to: "Happy 2008!"
21:59:37 <sbp> (to _bjoern)
22:00:44 <Arnia> .calc 2008 in binary
22:00:45 <phenny> 2 008 = 0b11111011000
22:00:54 <Arnia> .calc 2008 in ternary
22:00:54 <phenny> Arnia: Sorry, no result.
22:00:59 <Arnia> .calc 2008 in base 3
22:01:02 <phenny> Arnia: Sorry, no result.
22:01:15 <Arnia> .calc 2008b23
22:01:17 <phenny> Arnia: Sorry, no result.
22:01:31 <perigrin> .gc "pullin' in teh tubes"
22:01:33 <phenny> "pullin' in teh tubes": 0
22:01:41 <perigrin> .gs panamanian *
22:01:44 <phenny> balboa (6), isthmu (5), pilot (4), salvadoran (3), flag (3), embassy (3), brothers hiked (3), bride (3), balboa pab (3), tamale (2), strongman (2), stph (2), plane crash (2), journeyman rosano (2), hojaldra (2), government (2), cuisine recipe (2), citizenship (2), uniquene, tenor saxophonist, tax, t
22:02:13 <Arnia> \topic Happy 2202101!
22:02:35 <Arnia> uh
22:02:37 <crschmidt> .help gs
22:02:39 *** Arnia changed the topic to: "Happy 2202101!"
22:02:44 <crschmidt> phenny: help gs
22:02:46 <phenny> Sorry, no documentation for gs.
22:02:56 <perigrin> google set ?
22:03:43 <sbp> googlesplat
22:03:59 <perigrin> bless you
22:04:04 * perigrin hands sbp a tissue
22:04:05 <sbp> thanks
22:05:22 <Arnia> .g googlesplat
22:05:24 <phenny> Arnia: http://whois.domaintools.com/googlesplat.com
22:14:24 * sbp puts up tomorrow's Bogart cartoon
22:15:36 <cre8radix> happy new year!
22:17:07 <_bjoern> what weird time zone are you in!
22:17:12 <sbp> hehe
22:17:36 <sbp> Liechtenstein?
22:19:01 *** cr`x has quit ("אַכטונג! קאָמפיוטער שלאָפֿט.")
22:19:18 <cre8radix> right
22:19:19 <cre8radix> hrhr
22:19:30 * cre8radix is in germoney
22:21:19 <sbp> mang, I'm gonna get foods
22:28:31 * sbp wonders where xover is
22:28:36 <sbp> well, 2008
22:28:40 <sbp> but where exactly in 2008
22:28:55 <sbp> some berk is on the telly singing some stupid fluffy song
22:29:02 <sbp> no gravitas these days. bah!
22:29:53 <sbp> "No doubt about it, 2007 was the year of the boyband."
22:29:59 <sbp> - some ladyberk on the telly
22:30:17 <bancus> I thought that was 1997.
22:30:22 <sbp> yeah
22:31:15 <cre8radix> .t sbp
22:31:17 <phenny> Mon Dec 31 23:48:03 GMT 2007
22:31:24 <cre8radix> getting there
22:31:28 <sbp> yups
22:31:51 <cre8radix> .tock
22:31:53 <phenny> "Mon, 31 De
