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00:10:56 * Arnia mixes perigrin with a normally distributed source of noise
00:11:24 * perigrin becomes a rhymnocerous
00:12:05 <Arnia> perigrin: read my blog! I've made a post! It is probably nonsense!
00:12:14 <perigrin> URL!?
00:12:29 * perigrin add it to his feed reader!
00:12:42 <Arnia> http://www.dur.ac.uk/j.r.c.geldart/essays/there_again/towards_the_active_web.html
00:14:12 <Arnia> iplayer is being really slow :(
00:14:21 <Arnia> Might have to watch this tomorrow morning
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00:21:00 <cr`x> look at you with your gentium!
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02:44:40 <xover> [[[
02:44:40 <xover> We've noticed that customers who have purchased or rated "Stripped" by
02:44:40 <xover> Christina Aguilera have also purchased "Greatest Hits" by Spice Girls.
02:44:40 <xover> For this reason, you might like to know that "Greatest Hits" is now available.
02:44:40 <xover> ]]] — Amazon Spam
02:45:16 <xover> While I'm sure that's technically truw. what the fuck does it have to do with /me/, Amazon?
02:46:48 <xover> Ah, this is Amazon.com, not the .co.uk.
03:03:04 *** cr`x has quit ("אַכטונג! קאָמפיוטער שלאָפֿט.")
03:09:54 <xover> .compare "growing strong" "going strong"
03:09:55 *** est has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
03:09:58 <phenny> "going strong" (6,320,000), "growing strong" (540,000)
03:24:31 *** cr`x (n=crux@user-12lcqh4.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #swhack
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03:31:58 <Monty> howdy, est
03:41:05 <xover> .title http://www.boingboing.net/2008/01/16/library-of-congress.html
03:41:09 <phenny> xover: Library of Congress uses Flickr to crowdsource tagging and organizing its photo archive - Boing Boing
03:43:10 <cr`x> You christians have a lot of funny rituals. It seems like everyone has half a dozen different first communions.
03:45:38 <xover> .title http://www.boingboing.net/2008/01/16/sensitive-synthetic.html
03:45:41 <phenny> xover: Sensitive synthetic skin - Boing Boing
04:19:36 <jsled> .title http://www.thenewfreedom.net/wp/2008/01/16/richard-stallman-cranking-dat-soulja-boy/
04:19:39 <phenny> jsled: The New Freedom » Blog Archive » Richard Stallman Cranking Dat Soulja Boy
04:20:16 <jsled> cr`x: eh? As I recall, there's only one First Communion. Though there are other … events.
04:25:03 <xover> .title http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/16/meet-the-disintegrator-24-barrels-of-rubber-band-minigun-madnes/
04:25:06 <phenny> xover: Meet the Disintegrator: 24 barrels of rubber band minigun madness - Engadget
04:26:40 <xover> You've got to watch that video!
04:27:38 <xover> A monster feat of home engineering.
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04:34:23 <Monty> lo cr`x_
04:38:23 <jsled> quite sweet.
04:38:40 <jsled> e_videotoolong, though.
04:39:36 <xover> They had to fill up enough to match the length of the song. :-)
04:39:48 <jsled> yeah, gee, thanks.
04:40:00 <jsled> The locale college station metal show has much better.
04:40:38 <cr`x_> dang, did i miss some metal talk?
04:41:06 <jsled> Oh, yay, electoral-vote.com is back.
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04:59:55 <jsled> .pc “”
05:00:13 <phenny> 201C: LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK (“)
05:00:16 <phenny> 201D: RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK (”)
05:00:30 <jsled> took you long enough.
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05:06:30 <shminux> phenny: help pc
05:06:33 <phenny> Sorry, no documentation for pc.
05:07:57 <jsled> phenny: help
05:07:59 <phenny> Hi, I'm phenny (a http://inamidst.com/phenny/)
05:08:02 <phenny> Commands: acronym, beats, charinfo, codepoint, compare, email, event, gimage, google, googlecalc, googlecount, googledef, googlesplat, httphead, kalusa, mangle, map, myersbriggs, podecoint, rate, rates, remind, representation, seen, swhackcount, swhackcount2007, swhackorigin, swhacktail, tavtime, thesaurus, time, title, tock, translate, validate, weather, wikipedia, wordlength2007, wordnet
05:08:06 <phenny> Try "phenny: help command?" if stuck. My owner is sbp.
05:08:19 <jsled> phenny: help pc?
05:08:22 <phenny> Sorry, no documentation for pc.
05:08:25 <jsled> phenny: help .pc?
05:08:27 <phenny> Sorry, no documentation for .pc.
05:08:31 <jsled> .g podecoint
05:08:36 <phenny> jsled: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-01-04
05:08:51 <jsled> phenny: help podecoint?
05:08:54 <phenny> '.pc <utf-8> - Discover a utf-8 encoded codepoint.'
05:09:03 <shminux> heh
05:09:04 <jsled> AH HA!
05:09:08 <shminux> why spoonerism?
05:09:23 <jsled> phenny: help codepoint?
05:09:26 <phenny> '.cp <regexp> - Search for a particular Unicode codepoint.'
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05:31:56 <shawn_> strip doesn't work on the mac, anyone know what I'm talking about?
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06:12:33 <cre8radix> shebang
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06:55:42 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's idickinson!
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06:59:34 * Arnia sits down between Monty and Dahut
06:59:34 <Monty> cats is my passwords
07:08:43 <Arnia> "Are you asking me out on a date?" "Are you interested?" "As long as it isn't in an office; some fetishes should be kept to yourself"
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07:39:08 <Arnia> gah, why do they insist on screwing up education so badly?
07:39:14 <Arnia> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7192330.stm
07:39:19 <phenny> Arnia: BBC NEWS | Education | Geography 'must be made relevant'
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07:59:16 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<Monty> cats is my passwords"
07:59:18 <sbp> yo
07:59:26 <_bjoern> nu
08:00:03 <sbp> “Climate change, sustainable development and trade disputes could all be studied to increase interest, Ofsted said.” — oh yeah, that'll make it well exciting
08:00:30 <sbp> “today, as a treat, we're going to be studying... trade disputes!”
08:00:51 <Arnia> Because the whole point of education is to increase the numbers on the books for a given subject
08:00:58 <sbp> hehe
08:01:40 <Arnia> twats
08:03:35 * Arnia is waiting for a Special Delivery
08:04:07 <Arnia> Wish they gave a better prediction than 'before 1pm' cos I'd really like to be able to start coding so I have something to show my supervisor tomorrow
08:05:20 <Arnia> Well... it has left the delivery office, so it should be on the rounds now :/
08:06:55 * Arnia takes a moment to marvel
08:07:50 <sbp> yeah, I like delivery predictions
08:07:55 <Arnia> Just fifteen years ago, most people wouldn't have seriously thought that by 2008 we'd be able to, without calling a call-centre, track packages as they're delivered
08:08:18 <sbp> “some time at the end of March. if you are not in, we will dispose of your package in a controlled explosion. PS. It won't be *very* controlled.”
08:08:27 <Arnia> When I get irritated by things, I find it is helpful to put it all into perspective and realise just how astonishing all this really is
08:08:36 *** _greg_ (n=greg@isotoma.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #swhack
08:08:38 <sbp> tru
08:08:40 <sbp> e
08:08:57 <Arnia> yet we largely take it for granted
08:09:09 <sbp> we're moon wanters, Arnia. that's what we are
08:09:13 <sbp> a bunch of frigging moon wanters
08:09:40 <Arnia> well, I do think there are better ways to do things than we do them now. But it is astonishing we can do them at all
08:09:41 <sbp> I think you're right... for me it's the library catalogue that does it
08:09:45 <sbp> but also... right
08:10:34 <Arnia> Mentioning library catalogues... remember how utterly infuriating it was to use a card catalogue?
08:10:42 <sbp> yep
08:10:50 <Arnia> Spending hours in the stacks chasing down a single paper
08:11:09 <laplink> Given the shitty state of many digital catalogs, card catalogs could in some instances be argued to be an improvement.
08:11:15 <Arnia> or trying to get hold of a copy of a book which had gone missing in the inter-library loan system
08:11:30 <sbp> 16:09:32 <sbp> my favourite example is looking for something in the library
08:11:30 <sbp> 16:09:45 <sbp> people just don't seem to remember how bad things were in the catalogue days
08:11:30 <sbp> 16:10:27 <Arnia> yeah... well, I can just about remember having to use card catalogues in my local library
08:11:35 <sbp> - http://swhack.com/logs/2008-01-06#T16-09-32
08:11:57 * Arnia remembers as a child when they brought in the electronic catalogue for the Bucks library service
08:12:12 * sbp thinks of this as a design pattern, but hasn't written it up yet!
08:12:21 <sbp> I haven't even stubbed something in patterns/ for it yet... hmm
08:12:25 <sbp> what should I call it...
08:12:40 <sbp> ForgottenCatalogues?
08:12:51 <laplink> ThingsUsedToBeBetter
08:13:01 <laplink> InMyDay
08:13:02 <Arnia> It fascinated me that you could look up, from the library in Gerrards Cross, the contents of the library in Wendover, or Buckingham, or Milton Keynes.
08:13:08 <laplink> BackWhenIWas
08:13:09 <sbp> InMyDay: chuckle
08:13:17 <sbp> DuringTheWar
08:13:28 <laplink> WhenIWasInNam
08:13:33 <sbp> hehe
08:13:56 <sbp> yeah, I remember that
08:13:57 <Arnia> WhenIWereALad
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08:14:45 <Arnia> You could even search neighbouring areas... so I could check Oxford's system, or Luton's or Reading's
08:15:01 <Arnia> They spent a fortune on that system I think :)
08:15:15 <Arnia> bet most of the consolidation was done by hand as well
08:18:32 <Arnia> consolidate_catalogue :- self(S), S::catalog(C), randomise_indices(C).
08:19:04 <sbp> the disintegrator video is fun
08:19:34 <Arnia> More I think about it, the more I think Erik T Müller was right. AI should be messy, and code is a good way of writing things... but not C. Prolog or Haskell or something, not C
08:19:36 <Arnia> or Java
08:19:46 * Arnia nukes all academics who write their libraries in Java
08:20:46 <sbp> thanks. saves me doing it
08:21:22 <Arnia> It amuses me though the way that Java developers go on about how great their IDEs are, etc.
08:21:51 <Arnia> Personally I think requiring an IDE for a language is a sign of a problem with the language
08:23:33 <Arnia> it is just frustrating how much academic software is written it it :p
08:23:53 <Arnia> (usually with lofty claims of 'portability' and the like)
08:24:07 * Arnia stares balefully at Protegé
08:24:31 <Arnia> and I'm off on a ramble before 10am... yay
08:24:51 <sbp> might as well get one in early
08:25:07 <sbp> there's no such thing as hating Java too much
08:25:36 <laplink> It think Java must be about the least portable language in practice; at least in my experience with real world implementations.
08:25:43 <Arnia> Why are there so many people who love it so much?
08:26:11 <Arnia> Why do we still teach it?
08:26:25 <laplink> Because Java sounds good in theory?
08:26:48 <_bjoern> It does?
08:26:49 <laplink> And even better if you only look at the surface.
08:27:55 <Arnia> Oh in theory it is fine — and other languages have been based on similar ideas — but Java has the wrong sort of VM, a weird form of OO which is very inflexible, a strict type-system without enough subtlety to make it useful and a bloody hideous syntax.
08:28:15 <Arnia> *takes a deep breath*
08:28:57 <Arnia> and, for a language touted as a wonderful *server* language by a company heavily involved in Big Iron, it is absolutely shocking at concurrency
08:29:16 <Arnia> Makes the GIL look quite sweet
08:31:20 <realist> sun = big iron?
08:32:02 <Arnia> Late 80s/Early 90s, when Java was developed. Workstations and servers
08:33:32 * Arnia hopes massively distributed information (yes, trying to steal back a TLA) will kill off Java
08:33:35 *** darobin (n=robinb@colbert-ext.lid.theveniceproject.com) has joined #swhack
08:33:47 <Arnia> Well not kill off... but put it out to pasture like COBOL
08:34:04 * Arnia actually would prefer it to go to the knackers yard
08:35:08 <darobin> Monty!!! twe!!!
08:35:12 <Monty> stephmw i do things were a difference between mapping APIs. (at www.ajatus.info)
08:35:17 <twe> Twe the twe twe.
08:35:29 <twe> It may provide limited apis to get a 100x speedup on python code just by idly musing on the difference.
08:35:31 <darobin> oh come on twe, I'm sure you can say something much more interesting
08:35:35 <Arnia> Twe: What are your thoughts on Java?
08:35:41 <twe> Can i have to do something interesting.
08:35:59 <twe> Arnia: Don't worry, i have seen my page of your http://www.bjoernsworld.de/temp/whatwg-top-posters-may07-with-decrease-grouped.svgz is where the values are going to be able to do that. But if i learned to change that in java.
08:36:21 <realist> Arnia: big iron generally refers to mainframe though
08:36:44 * Arnia thinks of servers in the same grouping
08:37:28 <laplink> realist: Sun's portfolio falls in that murky middle-ground between typical mainframes and regular servers.
08:37:38 <twe> (That is to meet you, est. It is no middle ground.
08:37:54 <realist> Arnia: careful, blasphemy's outlawed in the UK ;-)
08:38:40 <_bjoern> twe should not post [off]'d urls.
08:38:42 <realist> laplink: hence commonly referred to as "midrange"
08:38:52 <twe> _bjoern: What's wrong with d other than text/plain, i get: "internet explorer was not in the post.
08:44:48 <darobin> I guess twe shouldn't see off comments at all in fact
08:44:53 <twe> I guess in a twe...
08:45:02 <darobin> twe: stop looking at the private comments
08:45:08 <twe> darobin: Looking at those comments.
08:45:23 <darobin> bad bot twe
08:45:33 <twe> I still see bug#458095: itp: phenny -- extensible irc bot of the twe-twe!
08:45:46 <_bjoern> Yes, that would do it.
08:46:52 <laplink> .title http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10
08:46:55 <phenny> laplink: Penny Arcade! - I Hope You Like Text
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08:51:04 <Monty> hey jewel
08:54:51 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<twe> I still see bug#458095: itp: phenny -- extensible irc bot of the twe-twe!"
08:56:18 <darobin> libby, danbri: you kids around?
08:56:24 * darobin is in Leiden
08:57:46 <sbp> they knew you were coming and went to Genoa
08:58:08 <danbri> leiden?!
08:58:13 * Arnia teleports darobin to dahut's house
08:58:15 <danbri> what on earth would you be doing there?
08:58:32 <darobin> sbp: damn, I should've known
08:58:33 <danbri> Libby's in a telecon in 1h with me, i'm in Bristol
08:59:06 <Arnia> Damn geography
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08:59:20 <darobin> danbri!!!! ah, dammit, I was hoping I could get a beer with you to brighten my stay
08:59:28 <darobin> Arnia: which one of dahut's houses?
08:59:29 <dahut> AT HUD!
09:00:02 <Arnia> He's at HUD house apparently
09:00:17 <Arnia> ooh, seagulls
09:00:31 <darobin> mmmm, Hud
09:00:42 <darobin> .wik HUD
09:00:45 <phenny> "Hud (prophet), an Islamic prophet, also known as Eber" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HUD
09:00:48 <darobin> I think it's his vernacular for 'hood
09:02:12 <darobin> I leave tomorrow at 17h06, so it's only a little over 29 hours still
09:02:53 <Arnia> What's Leiden known for?
09:03:09 <darobin> boredom, mostly
09:03:14 <darobin> .wik
09:03:16 <darobin> err
09:03:16 <phenny> Maybe you meant ".wik Zen"?
09:03:20 <darobin> .wik Leiden
09:03:24 <phenny> "Leiden (also Leyden) is a city and municipality in the province of South Holland in the Netherlands." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leiden
09:03:25 <darobin> heh, nice one phenny
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09:18:35 <sbp> ooh, interesting SHAKSPER post from Stanley Wells
09:18:49 <sbp> mentioning recent work on Shakepseare's religion, by none other than Bearman
09:23:12 *** sbp changed the topic to: "“NOBODY GOES NEAR MY DNA! MY DNA IS PRIVATE!”"
09:23:20 <sbp> (- from an upcoming Bogart)
09:24:36 <darobin> ≪⏏≫ ≪⌽≫ ⊂⊗⊃ ≲⊕≳ ∭∭∭∭
09:24:49 <_bjoern> Usually people litter every place they go with their DNA.
09:24:50 <darobin> unicode flying saucers riding a wave
09:25:09 <sbp> PRIVATE
09:25:11 <_bjoern> Unimpressive darobin.
09:25:51 <darobin> I like it :)
09:26:46 <darobin> and if you couldn't tell, I'm really bored
09:27:54 *** MoiraA has quit ("bye!")
09:31:08 <sbp> good ol' Leiden
09:31:37 * Arnia contemplates soup
09:34:51 <darobin> soup! OMG! it might even have a taste!
09:35:37 <_bjoern> .gs soup has *
09:35:38 <_bjoern> .gs soup is *
09:35:41 <phenny> soup has *: simmered (4), cooked (4), thickened (3), healing (3), gotten (3), no balls (2), msg (2), lots (2), got balls (2), gained rave (2), dropped (2), cooled (2), boiled (2), wowed, ulue,
09:35:44 <phenny> soup is *: boiling (5), simmering (3), ruined (3), reheated (3), delish (3), cuisines (3), sweeter (2), sopn (2), simmerin (2), profitable (2), much (2), ladled (2), highly (2), generaly (2),
09:35:50 <Arnia> or I could go for orange honey sandwiches
09:37:33 <darobin> lucky bastard
09:37:44 <darobin> I forgot to mention: there is no food in Leiden
09:37:50 <Arnia> ...
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09:38:32 <darobin> libby can attest to it if you don't believe me Arnia
09:38:50 <Arnia> What do you mean, no food?
09:41:33 <_bjoern> phenny!
09:41:36 <phenny> _bjoern!
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09:42:43 <darobin> Arnia: nothing that can be dignified with that denomination
09:43:04 <Arnia> yech...
09:43:14 <darobin> well, you know, Holland...
09:43:18 <Arnia> *reconsiders the Netherlands as a post-doc option*
09:44:18 <darobin> OMG NO DON'T GO THERE!
09:44:33 <darobin> where were you thinking of?
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09:47:53 <Arnia> Dunno... my supervisor keeps suggesting it; haven't gotten around to checking the idea out :)
09:48:51 <sbp> yeah, are you mad?
09:49:12 <sbp> the country seems to have no sense of humour whatsoever
09:49:25 <sbp> it is where you go to be a liberal robot
09:49:42 <sbp> I blame the lack of mountains personally
09:49:46 <darobin> a very exact definition
09:50:10 <darobin> I was going to blame a specific branch of protestantism, but hey that's probably culturally overdone
09:50:17 <sbp> hehe
09:50:26 <darobin> and they really have no food
09:50:30 <darobin> except in Amsterdam
09:50:33 <sbp> notable exports: football (sometimes)
09:50:43 <darobin> but then you have to deal with it being full of stoned tourists
09:50:45 <Arnia> Well, I'd rather not... but I don't know why my supervisor keeps mentioning it
09:50:50 <sbp> I mean even Switzerland has given the world more (skiing and fondue)
09:51:01 <sbp> (oh and chocolate. and cuckoo clocks)
09:51:12 <darobin> I'd take Geneva over anything in .nl very, very gladly
09:51:34 <sbp> one of my ambitions is to hold a convention in Geneva
09:51:43 <sbp> because then I could say I held a Geneva convention
09:52:07 <sbp> almost all of my ambitions are not very funny jokes
09:52:43 * darobin chortles
09:52:48 <darobin> I'd come, though
09:52:53 <sbp> awesome
09:53:05 * sbp pencils you in
09:53:24 <darobin> there's a whole list we could do
09:53:30 <darobin> e.g. agree in Yalta
09:53:41 <darobin> battle in Waterloo
09:53:45 <sbp> ooh, I hadn't considered the extensibility of this idea
09:54:11 <darobin> deal in someplace new
09:54:28 <sbp> that proposed new town on the Thames perhaps
09:54:43 <darobin> they're making a new town?
09:54:56 <sbp> yeah. and it looks like Milton Keynes Take II. it's extraordinary
09:55:20 <darobin> like that strange city with the strange name which... right, MK is the name
09:55:27 <darobin> pointer?
09:55:34 <sbp> looxoring
09:55:59 <darobin> crazy brits
09:56:05 <darobin> I don't think we make new towns
09:56:18 <laplink> They just sort of happen?
09:57:00 <darobin> I think we just grow the ones we have
10:00:14 <sbp> damn I can't find the story
10:00:23 <sbp> it seems to be a subset of the Thames Gateway proposals
10:00:48 <darobin> I can't find a new town in France posterior to 1972
10:01:37 <sbp> oh here we go
10:01:39 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7118909.stm
10:01:43 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | UK | Is Thames Gateway too ambitious?
10:01:55 <darobin> ah cool ta!
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10:02:28 <Monty> it's ace_me!
10:02:51 <sbp> at least they're only going to destroy a relatively crap part of Britain
10:02:54 <sbp> could be worse
10:03:01 <sbp> the CPRE are up in arms about it anyway
10:03:18 <sbp> but though I'm exceptionally pro-CPRE, I'd like to see 'em suggest something better
10:04:23 <Arnia> Unfortunately, the housing is proposed to go on marshland. This seems very... uh... silly to me
10:04:36 <sbp> having said that, they are going way too far into Kent
10:04:42 <Arnia> What with increased risk of flooding and London sinking
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10:04:48 <sbp> heh, yeah
10:04:54 <sbp> they're building on all the dangerous bits
10:05:03 <sbp> they need to put stilts in I think
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10:07:13 <sbp> the trouble with fixing crime and whatnot is that there's only two ways you can do it really, apart from increasing police numbers a billionfold. either increase the prosperity of an area, or massively decrease the population density
10:07:51 <Arnia> Yeah
10:07:58 <sbp> yet we seem bent on accommodating more and more people
10:08:21 <sbp> the population explosion is really bad
10:08:44 <sbp> isn't the UK something like the fifth most densely populated country in the world now?
10:09:55 <sbp> we need to annex some waste country and just gradually push people into it as an overflow
10:10:27 <sbp> then again, we tried that many times before (Ireland, colonies, commonwealth...)
10:10:38 <sbp> people just freaking breed even more rapidly in the overflow
10:11:39 <Arnia> The population density is ludicrous, but there is little to be done
10:13:02 <sbp> could do what China does and ban people having more than one kid
10:13:10 <sbp> because, you know, it's worked so well in China
10:14:01 <sbp> LAY IT DOWN TO ME PHENNY
10:14:04 <phenny> sbp: 11:44Z <gromgull> tell sbp to read consider being on the program committe of SFSW and to see the email I sent
10:17:42 <laplink> You could ban people.
10:17:46 <laplink> And having children.
10:19:35 <sbp> we should just neuter all non disabled people with an IQ below 50
10:19:44 <sbp> I don't believe in IQ tests or neutering...
10:19:50 <sbp> but I'll bet it would help significantly
10:21:40 <laplink> Make neutering mandatory, but with an opt-out option on a web page, and with public computer terminals provided for those too poor or too smart to own their own computer.
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10:21:45 <Monty> hey lisppaste2
10:21:56 <sbp> laplink: with a captcha! :-)
10:22:04 <laplink> Presto: Those too dumb to operate a computer self-selects themselves out of the gene pool.
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10:27:53 <Monty> But what does leobard have to do with the price of fish?
10:27:55 <phenny> Hush there, Monty.
10:27:59 <Monty> still see 'em suggest something like you be cold enough to watch that purpose
10:28:09 <Arnia> I'm not sure I want to see a world full of techies
10:28:41 <realist> sbp: wouldn't nuetering people with low IQ, inevitably lower everyone else's IQ?
10:29:03 <leobard> a world of techies: if they would all be women, would be ok
10:29:03 <realist> Sorry, shift the bell curve.
10:31:44 <sbp> realist: yeah, but you only need to do it for as long as population is a problem
10:32:22 <sbp> you don't apply it and apply it until there's only one person left and he's shitting himself that one day he'll be less clever than himself
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11:10:31 <bjoern_> phenny, "Dumm fickt gut."?
11:10:36 <phenny> bjoern_: "Stupidly fickt well." (de)
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11:37:36 <sbp> .ety puzzle
11:37:39 <phenny> "c.1595, pusle 'bewilder, confound,' possibly frequentative of pose (v.) in obsolete sense of 'perplex' (cf. nuzzle from nose)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=puzzle
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11:39:27 <sbp> “it's hard to lay a third of an egg; unless it's a very long labour”
11:39:29 <sbp> — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_teaser
11:40:59 <darobin> how did you taft there?
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12:05:01 <glen_quagmire> If I make all submit buttons javascript, did I just prevent spammers?
12:05:07 <Arnia> no
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12:05:26 <Arnia> The only secure system is the utterly inaccessible system
12:05:56 <glen_quagmire> i see
12:08:41 <darobin> but you can trim a fair bunch off with javascript stuff
12:08:58 <darobin> especially if you obfuscate it, gzip it, and then have it change randomly
12:09:54 *** sbp changed the topic to: "“NOBODY GOES NEAR MY DNA! MY DNA IS PRIVATE!” · <Arnia> The only secure system is the utterly inaccessible system"
12:14:40 <sbp> [[[
12:14:41 <sbp> In 1987, coffee merchants Tony Wild and David Hutton created a public limited company called "The East India Company" and in 1990 registered versions of the Company's coat of arms as a trademark, although the Patent Office noted 'Registration of this mark shall give no right to the exclusive use of the words "The East India Company".
12:14:48 <sbp> By December 1996, this company had a website. It sold St Helena coffee branded with the Company name and also produced a book on the history of the Company. This company has no legal continuity with the original Company, even though it claims on its website to have been founded in 1600.
12:14:56 <sbp> ]]] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company
12:16:34 <sbp> cool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies
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12:22:49 <Arnia> .title http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron_Letters
12:22:52 <phenny> Arnia: Tetrahedron Letters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
12:24:40 <sbp> “In the United Kingdom, an unlimited company is a company formed by registration under the Companies Act 1985 where the liability of the members is unlimited - that is, they are liable to contribute whatever sums are required to pay the debts of the company should it go into compulsory liquidation. Not surprisingly, this is not a common form of company.”
12:24:41 <sbp> — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlimited_company
12:28:24 <laplink> NoteToSelf: X360++ (Mass Effect), X360++ (Halo 1-3), X360++ (Assassin's Creed), PS3++ (Assassin's Creed)
12:30:51 <laplink> NoteToSelf: X360-- (Red RIng of Death), X360-- (Price), X360-- (Microsoft), PS3-- (Price)
12:31:01 <laplink> *grr*
12:31:08 <laplink> 0 / 0
12:31:40 <laplink> Well, actually, if you count MSFT as a -2, and likewise with the PS3's price…
12:31:44 <laplink> -1 / -1
12:31:57 <laplink> Which is probably closer to the truth.
12:33:15 <sbp> hehe
12:34:14 <laplink> .calc 400 USD in NOK
12:34:16 <phenny> 400 U.S. dollars = 2 135.59992 Norwegian kroner
12:35:00 <Arnia> 'The consultant advised them to focus on simple messages, such as “Public access equals government censorship”.' -- http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v445/n7126/pdf/445347a.pdf
12:35:09 <laplink> Then again, if the reported tightening of their production costs ($800->$400/unit) leads to a comparable price drop...
12:36:13 * laplink heads out for a fag, before The Government censors that word…
12:40:09 <darobin> .pc non breaking
12:40:12 <phenny> 006E: LATIN SMALL LETTER N (n)
12:40:15 <phenny> 006F: LATIN SMALL LETTER O (o)
12:40:16 <darobin> gah
12:40:18 <phenny> 006E: LATIN SMALL LETTER N (n)
12:40:20 <darobin> .cp non breaking
12:40:22 <phenny> Sorry, no results found for 'non breaking'.
12:40:24 <darobin> I can never remember
12:40:28 <darobin> .cp breaking
12:40:31 <phenny> 00A0: NO-BREAK SPACE ( )
12:40:34 <phenny> 1B60: BALINESE PAMENENG (᭠)
12:40:37 <phenny> 2011: NON-BREAKING HYPHEN (‑) [...]
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12:46:59 <kpreid> [[[
12:47:07 <kpreid> Dude #1: They have been underestimating my power.
12:47:07 <kpreid> Dude #2: What?
12:47:07 <kpreid> Dude #1: They have been underestimating my power for quite some time now.
12:47:07 <kpreid> Dude #2: What are you, a supervillain? Who's been underestimating your power? The justice league?
12:47:07 <kpreid> Dude #1: No, the electric company. They say I owe them eight hundred dollars.
12:47:08 <kpreid> Dude #2: Dude, you and I were having two totally different conversations.
12:47:09 <kpreid> ]]]
12:47:15 <kpreid> -- http://antickmusings.blogspot.com/2008/01/when-supervillains-meet-coned.html
12:49:02 <sbp> chuckle
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12:49:47 * sbp thinks a bit about organisations forking and merging and stuff, and comparisons to ye latest advances in class theory
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13:04:11 <Arnia> sbp: oh bugger... I have some references on that
13:04:21 <Arnia> It comes down to sheaf theory
13:04:27 <Arnia> but I'll have to dig them out
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13:06:18 <Arnia> see you all later
13:06:47 <cre8radix> l8r, Arnia
13:07:34 *** Arnia has quit ()
13:08:52 <sbp> aw man
13:08:57 <sbp> I wanna hear about sheaf theory
13:09:13 <darobin> .wik sheaf theory
13:09:16 <phenny> "In mathematics, a sheaf is the basic tool for expressing relationships between small regions of a space and large regions." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheaf_theory
13:09:18 * perigrin doesn't believe in Sheafs
13:09:23 <twe> Which is probably just a theory.
13:09:33 <darobin> heh
13:09:40 <perigrin> Exactly TWE!
13:09:44 <sbp> sheaves!
13:09:54 <sbp> you freaking phonological heathen
13:09:57 <perigrin> sbp, worse! They're irregular!
13:10:20 <sbp> nooOOoo
13:10:22 <perigrin> I thought we covered that when I introduced my self as an american?
13:10:26 <sbp> actually I guess irregularity is fun
13:10:27 <sbp> hehe
13:11:33 <sbp> phenny: tell Arnia would totally like to hear about sheaves (BAD PERIGRIN! NOT SHEAFS!) if it's not too much hassle for you to dig 'em out, yeah!
13:11:36 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when arnia is around.
13:12:09 <perigrin> okay because I've lead a very sheltered life ... is there some nicely written page or talk that explains the classic idioms of python and why people like them?
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13:13:03 <clsn> Well, the "cheese shop" sketch is a classic...
13:13:18 <clsn> And the use of coconuts to imitate hoofbeats...
13:13:27 <perigrin> yeah it was the Holy Grail that attracted me
13:13:41 * clsn nods. Even saw Spamalot on broadway a few months back.
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13:14:01 <perigrin> I was however in this case referring to the programming language ...
13:14:06 <clsn> OOooooh.
13:14:06 <perigrin> not the comedy troup
13:14:39 <clsn> I sort of made up the idioms as I went along when I started pythoning.
13:14:39 <sbp> hehe
13:14:44 <sbp> idioms, idioms...
13:14:46 * perigrin has really only dealt with crschmidt and sbp code when it comes to python
13:14:57 <sbp> it's difficult because it's more of a high-level philosophy than anything
13:15:13 <sbp> you can say how it feels and stuff, but you can't really argue it to be objectively superior to any other language (except for Java)
13:15:14 <perigrin> This is the gist of what I've gathered ...
13:15:37 <clsn> People come to programming with, say, C experience and think it will be helpful in programming Perl or Python... C isn't a creature of the same order as those. Nor even as Java.
13:15:52 <perigrin> I'm a perl programmer ... I'm low man in the pile right now as far as popular languages :)
13:16:10 <clsn> Hey, I still am more comfortable with Perl than Python for many things.
13:16:19 <sbp> some nice features are that you can learn all of the syntax quite easily, and yet it's very expressive and high level; that the standard library is so good that in a lot of cases you just don't have to rely on external packages; that it's getting nice and up to date with generators and stuff like that
13:16:33 <clsn> My standard rant on the Java-Python-Perl spectrum:
13:17:23 <clsn> Java is a B&D language, very big on purity of idea. Everything is a class, thou shalt declare a class in every program, etc... No shortcuts, no vagueness. Certainly no relief for the typing fingers.
13:18:06 <clsn> Perl is a results-oriented language. Get the fucking thing to WORK dammit. It's the language you want when the boss is breathing down your neck. So it has all kinds of shortcuts, leading to some absolutely insane syntax here and there.
13:18:35 <clsn> Reading the manpage description of the scalar meaning of the .. operator is a mystifying experience (until you see it in practice and go "ooooh....")
13:18:45 <darobin> perigrin: I guess it depends a lot on what idioms you use in Perl, but from what I've worked with Python taking your Perl idioms and figuring the most logical translation to Python works a lot of the time
13:19:07 <darobin> in fact they often end up looking quite similar, apart from the fact that I have a little trouble reading Python
13:19:19 <clsn> Python seems (to me) to try to tread the middle ground to an extent. It's a little more coordinated than Perl, and OO isn't a bag on the side made of glorified hashes.
13:19:25 <xover> “A little”? Kudos for you then.
13:19:28 <darobin> the rest you can pretty much pick up by reading a little bit of code here and there
13:19:46 <sbp> yeah. then you can augment that later by reading the list of python builtins. there are like fifty of them, and if you learn 'em all (which isn't hard) it just makes things a lot easier for you later down the line
13:19:49 <clsn> But neither is it totally bogged down in details, nor does it shove OO into your every orifice like Java.
13:19:52 <perigrin> darobin, well I find anymore if it doesn't have sigils it takes me a second run through
13:20:01 <sbp> you only need like 20% of it anyway; stuff like xrange and enumerate
13:20:26 <clsn> Heh, oddly I do have trouble still shifting from sigilless to sigilful languages (perl, PHP) and back...
13:20:26 <darobin> perigrin: yeah, me too, sigils plus the fact that I'm wired to see blocks based on curlies
13:20:44 <perigrin> THAT IS MY PROBLEM WITH RUBY!
13:20:45 <perigrin> Thank you
13:20:49 <darobin> but it's pretty neat overall
13:20:58 <perigrin> I hadn't figured out why I couldn't get past end as a block end
13:21:00 <sbp> en
13:21:03 <sbp> end
13:21:05 <sbp> end
13:21:07 <sbp> end
13:21:08 <sbp> end
13:21:10 <sbp> end
13:21:12 <sbp> end
13:21:15 <sbp> end
13:21:17 <sbp> end
13:21:21 <sbp> - my usual Ruby parody
13:21:27 <clsn> I don't miss the curlies, except when doing Yacc-like stuff when you want to be able to stick in semi-arbitrary code snippets.
13:21:31 <sbp> - only normally the first end has a d in it
13:21:39 <darobin> I saw some very nice parsing idoms that were built atop the fact that Python's eval can be made safe by specifying which builtins (including none) are made available to it
13:21:42 <perigrin> clsn, well I'm biased with Perl OO ... Moose has cleaned up the drool a bunch
13:21:59 <sbp> darobin: my Ajax parser does that
13:22:16 <darobin> basically people would parse by doing the minimal amount of replacement that turns the original into a valid python data struct, then eval it
13:22:18 <darobin> very neat
13:22:22 <clsn> The enforced prettyprinting of Python helps with space economy (don't need quite as much vertical whitespace for closebraces) and does make it easier to read.
13:22:28 <darobin> sbp: yeah, I guess it's easiest with JSON
13:23:01 <darobin> clsn: I find that's rather taste/habit based really
13:23:17 <darobin> I guess I'd get used to it if I ever had to do Python for any length of time
13:23:18 <clsn> perigrin: I haven't tinkered with Moose, nor with Perl6 really.
13:23:32 <sbp> .eval eval('open', {'__builtins__':None})
13:23:35 <phenny> NameError: name 'open' is not defined (file "/home/sbp/phenny/modules/admin.py", line 63, in f_eval)
13:23:37 <sbp> .eval eval('open')
13:23:40 <phenny> <type 'file'>
13:23:44 <perigrin> well I can't speak for perl6 but I'm employed to write Moose code ...
13:23:47 <sbp> you do it like that
13:24:22 <clsn> Yeah, and Perl for that matter has one or two pleasantly obnoxious syntax points. I refer to the fact that if statements MUST have braces around the then and else clauses. Mind you, I think this is a good thing.
13:24:44 <perigrin> :)
13:25:04 <perigrin> well ... you can use the trinary operator ...
13:25:09 <clsn> Because there's ALWAYS the time when you use a braceless then, and then stick a debugging printf into it when it seems weird, and then things totally don't work anymore.
13:25:10 <darobin> I don't recall, does Python have postfix if and unless?
13:25:14 <sbp> yadda yadda yadda
13:25:21 <clsn> The latest Python has a ternary op. I like it.
13:25:21 <sbp> nope
13:25:25 <sbp> it does... right
13:25:26 <clsn> I think Python 1.5
13:25:29 <perigrin> darobin, no but they do have if foo: bar
13:25:30 <clsn> Yeah, but no postfix.
13:25:31 <sbp> ...
13:25:34 <sbp> 1.5?!
13:25:37 <sbp> 1.5 is like 1993
13:25:43 <darobin> that's a shame, I miss postfix whenever it's not there
13:25:46 <clsn> 2.5
13:25:49 <sbp> :-)
13:25:56 <sbp> Python's ternary is like:
13:26:01 <darobin> it's so natural to say "return if whatever"
13:26:12 <xover> BTW, a standard .no idiom for “yucky” is “python”.
13:26:16 <sbp> joy = if woman than sex else wank
13:26:19 <darobin> or "die unless this is cool"
13:26:23 <sbp> s/than/then/
13:26:29 <sbp> IIRC
13:26:32 <clsn> I haven't seen many languages with Perl's afterthought if. I think of it as a peculiarity of Perl. A rather nice peculiarity, though.
13:26:37 * sbp checks, has never actually used Python's ternary in anger
13:26:41 <clsn> sbp No, I don't think so.
13:26:56 <clsn> it's joy = sex if woman else wank
13:27:13 <clsn> (and I don't even have 2.5 installed on my system)
13:27:17 <sbp> oh right, yeah
13:27:40 <sbp> cf. http://www.python.org/doc/faq/programming/#is-there-an-equivalent-of-c-s-ternary-operator
13:27:42 <clsn> I also like Perl's "open file or die", though that isn't so perl-specific.
13:28:12 <perigrin> vote() or die "Puffy said VOTE Bitch"
13:28:15 <perigrin> ;
13:28:21 <clsn> Heh. :)
13:28:32 <sbp> line endings should be :)
13:28:46 <sbp> x = 'hmm' :)
13:28:47 <perigrin> sbp, they really should
13:28:49 <sbp> print x :)
13:29:09 <clsn> I started reading up on Haskell because of Arnia's praise thereof. Maybe I should work on learning some ruby too?
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13:29:11 <sbp> the only exception being, well...
13:29:19 <sbp> raise SomeError("DAMN") :(
13:29:24 <perigrin> sbp, now add in the >_< operator
13:29:28 <sbp> ehheh
13:29:49 <perigrin> also ... I think you mean
13:29:53 <clsn> Tho I get the feeling after a while that the more and more esoteric plusses and minusses of programming languages, the fine points of OO etc, aren't all as important as they're believed to be.
13:29:54 <perigrin> FAIL "Damn" :(
13:30:06 <darobin> sbp: that's XQuery baby
13:30:09 <clsn> Kinda like INTERCAL's "PLEASE DO..." statement introduction.
13:30:10 <sbp> polymorph(*&fodox->[0] % |foobells| -- conjunct(* $ hermitian(*** |"str".type|) ) {}) >_<
13:30:13 <darobin> (: this is a comment! :)
13:30:24 <sbp> darobin: yeah. I actually sent a comment about that before REC, I think
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13:31:47 * perigrin actually started parsing *&fodox->[0] (let's see the glob of the value stored in the 0th element returned by fodox) before he stopped himself
13:31:57 <sbp> hehe
13:32:28 <perigrin> though I think you'd need &fodox() for the parser to be able to disambiguate that ... and possibly *{ }
13:32:54 <clsn> METAFONT's if/thens (and defs, for that matter) were purely macroish. Straight text substitution. So you can do some syntactically evil things and nobody will mind.
13:33:54 <perigrin> I haven't yet had to deal with a language with macros ... I'm not sure I have enough brain power at this point to cope
13:34:08 <darobin> it's always evil
13:34:15 <clsn> Combine that with its insane but brilliant math engine, it's a wonder it's only used for fonts.
13:34:15 <darobin> ASN.1 macros were fun
13:34:40 <clsn> I do occasionally find myself missing #define, as most languages have realized the inherent potential for evil in it.
13:34:40 <darobin> you could redefine everything, including the way macros were defined
13:35:06 <darobin> oh, and they didn't need to be declared before they were used
13:35:20 <darobin> took them a while to realise that meant parsing might never finish...
13:35:53 <perigrin> heh
13:35:59 <clsn> Sometimes "public static final LIMIT=5;" just isn't as satisfying.
13:36:17 * perigrin shivers
13:36:26 <kpreid> clsn: how so? Too verbose and piecewise?
13:36:26 <sbp> wash your brain out with soap young man
13:36:43 <darobin> well, it's Java to boot
13:37:19 <clsn> Not as iconic and bare-bones as "#define LIMIT 5" Oh, yeah, defining a variable, how nice... and you're not allowed to change it, young man. As opposed to "It's a 5. It's a Digit. Fucking deal with it."
13:37:28 <kpreid> clsn: in my experience, the primary evil is that FFIs don't get to retrieve LIMIT since it's compiled out, whereas for p.s.f. they can.
13:37:48 <clsn> FFIs? Sorry...
13:38:18 <sbp> what gets me is how much programming is to do with maths
13:38:29 <sbp> I mean it's all maths when you get right down into the fucking bowels
13:38:34 <clsn> Can you even make immutable constants in Python?
13:38:40 <sbp> because it's all binary
13:38:49 <clsn> Well, also, math is really the one thing computers are actually good at.
13:38:52 <sbp> immutable: no
13:38:55 <sbp> yeah
13:39:01 <perigrin> clsn, actually they're not ... they just add.
13:39:07 <sbp> it's just surprising that as you go higher up, it doesn't get more... mathless
13:39:16 <sbp> all that really gets added are structures
13:39:19 <perigrin> Try to get them to write a proof for you ... FAIL
13:39:20 <sbp> lists! hashtables!
13:39:20 <clsn> Yeah yeah I know. But even at a higher level, math is what they do best.
13:39:28 <sbp> and object orientation
13:39:31 <clsn> Not even math, arithmetic.
13:39:39 <sbp> hmm
13:39:49 <kpreid> clsn: FFI: foreign function interface. i.e. invoking one language from another
13:40:18 <sbp> I was thinking about this when I looked at the world's first few programming languages
13:40:22 <sbp> it all just evolved out of maths
13:40:32 <sbp> and it's funny that LISP and so many other very standard stuff is so early
13:40:47 <clsn> Programming is a lot of math, but then, what's the alternative? Also, math is the most logically-constrained and developed field. It's hard to base a programming language on metaphor or painting.
13:40:48 <kpreid> clsn: in general such things mean you get to work with the runtime parts (e.g. the symbols a C library exports) but not the compile-time ones (macros &c)
13:41:03 <sbp> ah, but is it impossible?
13:41:12 <clsn> kpreid: gotcha. yeah, #defines are poor choices for that.
13:41:25 <clsn> sbp: no clue. But even if it isn't, it isn't a surprise it all started with math.
13:41:27 <sbp> I'm just wondering where high-level will be going in the next ten, twenty, thirty years
13:41:32 <realist> think about what you're "programming"
13:41:35 <sbp> what's going to be the next high?
13:41:39 <twe> Let's just take a descriptive or a prescriptive line, and i've no idea where that is wondering.
13:41:41 <realist> a 'computer'
13:41:55 <clsn> Hmm... Well, I think we'll see more standard operations becoming builtins.
13:41:59 <sbp> sure, but as we get more higher level, we introduce less mathslike concepts
13:42:06 <clsn> Not just "sort" but stuff like "neuralnetwork" maybe.
13:42:07 <sbp> object orientation is the major hook away rom that
13:42:08 <realist> of course it's computational mathematics
13:42:33 <perigrin> sbp, except then they sucked it all back in with Category Theory and Set Theory and and and
13:42:37 <perigrin> the bastards!
13:42:39 <realist> right, abstraction, until you get something like Java, or VB
13:42:42 * realist spits
13:42:42 <sbp> yet there seems to be still a lot more of the essentially low level sort of programming than the high level, even in supposedly high level languages
13:43:03 <clsn> String-processing to become even more powerful, to incorporate some NLP stuff, esp. since NLP is where a lot of work is expected of us (people wanna talk to their computers)
13:43:04 <sbp> it's not abstraction. it's just moving away from maths and into other useful things
13:43:22 <sbp> but I'll be writing something like arcs, which is supposed to be a Semantic Web browser, and there'll be so much maths and structure!
13:43:44 <realist> .g define: abstract
13:43:47 <phenny> define: abstract: sorry, no results were found.
13:43:48 <sbp> things like the UI and all the pretty colours and other interface metaphors are the only relief
13:43:58 <sbp> .gd abstract
13:43:58 <clsn> Well, there's always a certain amount of low-level algorithmic shtuff. Even in instructions meant for semi-humans there are things like "if this then do that."
13:44:01 <phenny> abstract: consider a concept without thinking of a specific example; consider abstractly or theoretically
13:44:09 <sbp> true
13:44:28 <realist> anyway I'm off to sleep
13:44:29 <sbp> but natural languages are so unlike programming languages
13:44:32 <sbp> c'ya!
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13:44:59 <sbp> perigrin: sucked it back in... hehe, yeah
13:44:59 <clsn> And we're trying to program computers to think more abstractly than they do, so obviously the instructions have to be less abstract.
13:45:26 <sbp> sure
13:45:34 *** comzeradd (n=comzerad@adsl52-85.kln.forthnet.gr) has joined #swhack
13:45:40 <sbp> of course the domain moves when you stop just issuing commands
13:45:41 <kpreid> a lot of modern programs have low-level details in their high-level code that really ought to have been abstracted away long ago
13:46:04 <clsn> Well, it isn't for nothing that Chomsky et al did all that stuff with CFGs. CFGs are definitely woefully inadequate to handle serious natlangs, but they do a very good job at parts, and the concepts they introduce are definitely significant.
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13:46:17 <sbp> you can tell your fridge "chill shit to 5C plz". what can you ask it which you can't get a human to do, but would want a fridge to do?
13:46:48 <sbp> I think that's what I'm getting at. is there a class of things we should be exploring which aren't really programming language domain, but aren't natural language domain either. is there a third domain?
13:47:08 <clsn> A domain of expression, or of tasks? Or both?
13:47:12 <sbp> and will high-level programming eventually lead towards that domain?
13:47:17 <kpreid> I question whether there are even two domains.
13:47:18 <sbp> I'm not sure
13:47:19 <clsn> A dimension of light and shadow... woops sorry.
13:47:25 <sbp> hehe
13:47:30 <clsn> I'm also not sure.
13:47:41 <perigrin> beyond sight and sound
13:47:44 <perigrin> no wait
13:48:28 <perigrin> sbp, well part of the problem is that computes because they need to translate everything down to simple arithmatic require rigorous logical constructs
13:48:36 <clsn> I don't know that the programming language/natural language dichotomy is so rigid. Yeah, programming languages are boring and ask you to do things you couldn't keep track of in your head, but they're only asking for tasks which a human could understand and do too.
13:48:37 <perigrin> er "computers" even
13:48:47 <sbp> yeah. but we *can* model stuff on top of those rigorous constraints
13:48:52 <sbp> even things like probability and so on
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13:49:06 <perigrin> and you're starting to get into one of the major complaints about perl ... "it's too contextual"
13:49:08 <clsn> perigrin: That's true, but then so do neurons. sbp is wondering if we can't abstract them high enough to unmathify the language.
13:49:09 <perigrin> :)
13:49:26 <sbp> I suppose there are related silly questions like (where are all these people coming from?) like whether natural languages are turing complete, or beyond turing complete, and blah blah
13:49:58 <clsn> Natlangs are incredibly dependent on context and pragmatics. Which makes a program unportable since it has to carry all the state with it. not desirable in accomplishing specific things.
13:50:10 <sbp> I think natural language is provably beyond Turing complete given that you can express a proof of some of the busy beaver numbers in it, which can't be computed on a Turing complete machine, as I understand it (that seems to be pretty much most of the definition)
13:50:31 <perigrin> I suspect natural languages escape from teh Church Turing thesis by either being not rigorouly defined enough to be able to accurately describe themselves
13:50:43 <perigrin> *or* ...
13:50:48 <perigrin> lost the plot there
13:51:17 <clsn> Hmm, but any mathematical proof can be converted into formal logic, hence Gödel etc. I'm not so sure that we can imagine Busy Beavers any more perfectly than a TM-based AI.
13:52:40 * darobin shudders as #swhack slips towards reinventing AppleScript
13:52:44 <sbp> hahaha
13:52:55 <perigrin> darobin, Cobol!
13:53:18 <darobin> Get the Content from the File in the Directory in the Home
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13:53:22 * perigrin has heard enough stories to fear and pity those who came before with COBOL
13:53:27 <clsn> Of course, imagining super-Turing computing is weird enough. I read a paper linked off WP's article on Hypercomputing. It's almost hard to find actual problems that you can sensibly talk about that involve hypercomptuting.
13:53:52 <darobin> .wik hypercomputing
13:53:55 <phenny> "Hypercomputation refers to various hypothetical methods for the computation of non-Turing-computable functions (see also supertask)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercomputing
13:54:09 <sbp> Switch to window IRC on Darobin's Computer and type "Here we go round the mulberry bush" and press Enter
13:54:09 <perigrin> .wik supertask
13:54:12 <phenny> "In philosophy, a supertask is a task occurring within a finite interval of time involving infinitely many steps (subtasks)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertask
13:54:15 <clsn> My mother learned Cobol when it wasn't cool. Actually, well after it was cool.
13:55:04 * clsn remembers having suggested what apparently are called "accelerated Turing Machines" in an early computing class in college, and was told you couldn't do that,.
13:55:14 <sbp> awesome
13:55:21 <sbp> what are they?
13:55:33 <sbp> I suggested quaternions in college
13:55:36 <darobin> like ticker-tape, only faster
13:55:41 <clsn> Accelerated TMs are ones that perform on operation in one tick, the next one in half a tick, the next in a quarter, and so on, so at the end of two ticks they'e done an infinite number of steps.
13:55:53 <sbp> when officially, imaginary numbers weren't even on our syllabus
13:56:14 <sbp> independent invention are teh fun
13:56:18 <clsn> Ayup.
13:56:26 <sbp> oho, Zeno's Turing Machine
13:56:32 <clsn> Basically, yeah.
13:56:35 <perigrin> clsn, my mom was the one telling me the horror stories
13:56:41 <clsn> Heh. :)
13:56:56 <clsn> Horror stories. My third-grade teacher read us stories from Edgar Allen Poe.
13:56:58 <clsn> With the lights off.
13:57:00 <perigrin> something about having to write a header file parser in COBOL ...
13:57:04 <clsn> By the light of a fucking CANDLE.
13:57:17 <clsn> (a big weird-looking candle too)
13:57:31 <perigrin> "and then ... in the still of night ... I had to run the entire student registration ... ON ONLY 640K of RAM!" AHHHHHHH!
13:57:46 <sbp> clsn: is that teacher in prison now, by any chance?
13:58:10 <clsn> I remember when I went off to college with my new IBM AT, with 30MB of hdd space, and thinking, wow, 30 megs. What the hell will I ever find to fill THAT MUCH space??
13:58:14 * sbp chuckles at perigrin's use of the Gates number
13:58:32 <sbp> heh, yeah
13:58:36 <clsn> Actually, no, she was pretty cool. And I guess that was part of it, having the guts to do that.
13:58:45 <clsn> For that matter, her husband was a cop.
13:58:58 <perigrin> in this case I believe it was an accurate description of the memory available to her in the PDP 11 ... I'm not sure.
13:59:14 <clsn> He came to school for the Policement Are Your Friends talk. Demonstrated the handcuffs. I actually managed to get out of them.
13:59:21 * perigrin has never *seen* a PDP 11
13:59:22 <sbp> ah
13:59:30 <sbp> ooh, this reminds me of a bash.org quote. yay
13:59:51 <clsn> I think I worked on one when I was in Israel; my friend and I hacked ourselves accounts on some machines in the university...
13:59:59 <perigrin> clsn, he then kept a close eye on you for the rest of your school days?
14:00:05 <sbp> <DaZE> at my school.. the cop from DARE passed around 3 joints to show everyone... and he said "if i dont get all three of these back this schools getting locked down and everyones getting searched till i find it.." and like 30 minutes later when everyone got to see 'em and they got passed back the cop had 4
14:00:10 <clsn> We did a lot of programming in APL on a *true* APL machine. Mmm, pretty.
14:00:16 <sbp> - http://www.bash.org/?409
14:00:23 <clsn> sbp: LOL
14:00:36 <perigrin> sbp, scary I was thinking of the same quote
14:00:37 <clsn> Heh... Nah. Just that I was REALLY skinny.
14:00:42 <sbp> hehe
14:00:55 <clsn> I'm not sure of the wisdom of passing them around in the first place.
14:01:28 <sbp> so you can made sure that if someone passes you a spliff in future that you're not getting the kind of crap ganja that is passed out by DARE
14:02:19 <clsn> sbp: I guess.
14:02:22 <sbp> (I should note that I don't know that DARE is)
14:02:32 <sbp> (but that did not matter for the purposes of my joke)
14:02:38 <clsn> It's a "keep kids off drugs" organization.
14:02:42 <clsn> I forget what it stands for.
14:02:58 <sbp> DON'T ANALLY RECREATIONALLY EXPERIMENT
14:03:21 <xover> ,wik Drug Abuse Resistance Education
14:03:25 <JibbyBot> "Drug Abuse Resistance Education, better known as DARE or D.A.R.E., is an international education program that seeks to prevent use of illegal drugs, membership in gangs, and violent behavior." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_Abuse_Resistance_Education
14:03:25 <xover> .wik Drug Abuse Resistance Education
14:03:29 <phenny> "Drug Abuse Resistance Education, better known as DARE or D.A.R.E., is an international education program that seeks to prevent use of illegal drugs, membership in gangs, and violent behavior." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_Abuse_Resistance_Education
14:03:33 <xover> heh heh
14:03:45 <perigrin> sbp, DRUGS ARE REALLY EVIL
14:04:11 <xover> Drugs Are Rockinest EVVAH!
14:12:46 <clsn> sbp: so, if I posted a blog entry on color temperature (you know, stuff like "4500K" on fluorescent light bulbs), would you read it?
14:12:55 <sbp> yes
14:13:03 <clsn> I suppose you would, because I'm someone you know and you have no life. But I mean, would it be worthwhile...
14:13:07 <cr`x> only if it was oyf Yidish
14:13:08 <sbp> as long as you didn't get me to add all the temperatures to find the total temperatures
14:13:39 <clsn> OK... I've been meaning to scribble one.
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14:22:31 *** twe has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:23:52 *** twe (n=twe@66.92.66.26) has joined #swhack
14:25:24 <darobin> .title http://www.theonion.com/content/video/mitt_romney_defends_himself?utm_source=onion_rss_daily
14:25:26 <phenny> darobin: Mitt Romney Defends Himself Against Allegations Of Tolerance | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
14:25:49 <perigrin> heh
14:25:57 <perigrin> That silly Mitt
14:26:34 <cr`x> metadata!
14:26:44 <perigrin> dahut!
14:26:51 <cr`x> :
14:26:54 <cr`x> (
14:27:41 <perigrin> dahut
14:27:41 * dahut topples down the mountain
14:27:44 <perigrin> there we go
14:27:46 <perigrin> silly dahut
14:27:47 <dahut> METADATA!
14:29:40 <cr`x> wank it
14:29:40 * dahut gets busy harping on the one-eyed trouser trout
14:29:43 <cr`x> yay!
14:29:52 <perigrin> mekano-pip, hit on cr`x
14:29:53 <mekano-pip> cr`x: THATZ NICE THROAT - YOUZ SELLINS TIMESHISZ?
14:30:06 <sbp> mekano-pip: hit on twe
14:30:07 <mekano-pip> twe: LETZ ENJOY TEH TRADISHUNAL CUSTOM IN PERU OV GETTINS BAD EYESITE.
14:30:18 <perigrin> this is a bad idea
14:30:20 <sbp> yep
14:30:21 <twe> [Off] hit on a tech that not enough people know where i put where with a female pip.
14:30:26 * perigrin readies the kill switch
14:30:29 <sbp> hehe
14:30:39 <twe> mekano-pip: Huh. Oh, blast, i know what's causing it, but in that the ends of the os. What this means for your custom and help you remember that paper, but i don't enjoy it.
14:30:39 <sbp> that was surprising. he doesn't prefix!
14:30:43 <mekano-pip> twe: QUOI? OUI.. AND CAUSIN IT BUT IN THAT TEH ENDZ OF TEH OZ AR TEH BLAST YU KNOW WUT. WHUT AR IT TO YOUZ?
14:30:44 <sbp> oh, there we go
14:30:53 <twe> mekano-pip: But that they are the ones posted on his bio i could know?
14:30:55 <mekano-pip> twe: INTERESTIN. TEH ONEZ POSTED ON HIZ BIO YOUZ COULD KNOW IS THEY.
14:30:56 <perigrin> that was him responding to you
14:30:59 <sbp> yeah
14:31:07 <twe> mekano-pip: You'd have to live on in the wimbledon area, and if so is it to youz.
14:31:08 <mekano-pip> twe: THAT AR PURELY HYPUDDESIZ. KTHXBYE!
14:31:16 <twe> mekano-pip: Purely for its plannin lojbanist." - http://etymonline.com/?search=fornicate.
14:31:17 <mekano-pip> twe: YORE PURPOSE AR ITZ PLANNIN LOJBANIST. THNXZ FUR THAT WEB ADDRESZ.
14:31:27 <twe> mekano-pip: She became an ex-clubs in the web for that purpose.
14:31:28 * cr`x slowly starts going insane
14:31:28 <mekano-pip> twe: HOW DO YOO KNOW BECAME AN EX CLUBZ IN TEH WEB FOAR THAT PURPOSE? KTHXBYE!
14:31:31 <sbp> heheh
14:31:35 <twe> mekano-pip: Don't do that on purpose.
14:31:39 <mekano-pip> twe: K ILL TRY NOT T DO IT T MUCH.
14:31:48 <twe> mekano-pip: Ill just wait untills sbp is it not?
14:31:49 <mekano-pip> twe: HOW DO YU PLAN TO DO THIZ?
14:31:55 <twe> mekano-pip: I use to do thiz?
14:31:59 <mekano-pip> twe: WHEN DID YOUZ STOP IT?
14:32:05 <sbp> what?!
14:32:07 <twe> mekano-pip: Stop looking at it to youz.
14:32:08 <mekano-pip> twe: KAY ILL TRY NOT TO DO IT SO MUCH.
14:32:08 <perigrin> !?
14:32:10 <swhask> Maybe you meant: . v
14:33:15 <sbp> /mode +q #swhack twe
14:33:18 <sbp> that gave the +t
14:33:22 <sbp> /mode #swhack +q twe
14:33:25 <sbp> that was the correct answer
14:33:31 <twe> I'll pass that on when twe is a separate field of interdisciplinary study, combining elements of q1 and q2 in weird ways.
14:33:35 <twe> Twe the twe twe.
14:33:38 <sbp> hehe
14:33:54 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<twe> I'll pass that on when twe is a separate field of interdisciplinary study, combining elements of q1 and q2 in weird ways."
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14:42:01 <Monty> bah, it's Arnia again
14:53:15 <sbp> Arnia: coughphennybaitcough
14:54:03 * Arnia boings in kind
14:54:06 <phenny> Arnia: 14:42Z <sbp> tell Arnia would totally like to hear about sheaves (BAD PERIGRIN! NOT SHEAFS!) if it's not too much hassle for you to dig 'em out, yeah!
14:54:51 <Arnia> .g type-theoretical grammar
14:54:54 <phenny> Arnia: http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Mathematics/Logic/?view=usa&ci=019853857X
14:55:32 <Arnia> .g Category Theory for Computing Science
14:55:34 <phenny> Arnia: http://www.case.edu/artsci/math/wells/pub/ctcs.html
14:55:42 <Arnia> .wik sheaf theory
14:55:45 <phenny> "In mathematics, a sheaf is the basic tool for expressing relationships between small regions of a space and large regions." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheaf_theory
14:55:54 <twe> In fact they are hampered by their relationships to the tool?
14:56:08 <Arnia> Think of it as a way of attaching information to a topological space
14:56:09 <sbp> is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheaf_theory the right thing?
14:56:12 <Arnia> (such as time)
14:56:16 <Arnia> Yes
14:56:40 <Arnia> Uh, can probably phrase that better
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14:57:05 <Arnia> Think of it as a way of attaching information to a topological space (such as the space of temporal intervals)
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14:58:26 <sbp> I don't see the connection to social organisations
15:00:10 <sbp> and whew, this is pretty deep into category theory
15:00:24 <Arnia> Well, you can extend the information you represent to include entities and their lifecycles
15:00:50 <Arnia> So you can say that such-and-such a property holds on this interval, but not on this other interval
15:01:08 <Arnia> The gluing property of sheaves ensures that you end up with a coherent representation
15:01:17 <Arnia> (from a category theory perspective blah blah)
15:01:51 <sbp> I can't see writing off to Companies house or the Charity commission with a manifesto written in category theory... :-)
15:02:02 <sbp> this is a far step from Robert's Rules of Order
15:02:10 <sbp> but yeah, I see what you're driving at. I think
15:03:27 <Arnia> There are several possible representations of time using sheaves... they all use the gluing axiom to implement temporal inertia
15:03:50 <Arnia> (if something holds true on an entire interval, it must hold true on all subintervals)
15:04:06 <sbp> I was thinking more like a minimal set of rules that would allow people to play interesting games of organisational nomic, that introduced ideas from prototypicality theory (so groups don't shatter, they just mutate)
15:05:50 <sbp> Arnia: an unrelated question, what do category theorists calculate with? what I mean is... is there some kind of mechanical aid that can be used for category theorists? even in calculus and things like that... well actually I guess there are quite a few niftybits on the best calculators for calculus
15:05:54 <sbp> but what about category theory?
15:06:54 <Arnia> sbp: other than their heads? Generally tools like Coq, Isabelle/HOL, OBJ, LF/LEGO, etc.
15:06:54 <sbp> it's easier to understand why people add numbers than to integrate an equation. and much easier than understanding why they make commutative diagrams of homomorphisms or whatever
15:07:05 <sbp> ooh, thanks
15:07:20 <Arnia> sbp: if you mean, what's the abstraction that is calculated on? Graphs
15:07:47 <Arnia> So in some fashion, any tool chosen has to work with graphs
15:07:55 <Arnia> Anyway
15:08:17 <Arnia> For a minimal set of rules for time, use Allen's intervals
15:08:28 <sbp> .wik Allen's intervals
15:08:32 <phenny> "Allen's Interval Algebra is a calculus for temporal reasoning that has been introduced by James F. Allen in 1983." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen's_Interval_Algebra
15:09:32 <sbp> nice
15:09:45 <sbp> there was some big hoo-hah over this on language log a year or two ago
15:10:28 <sbp> but again, I can't imagine using this
15:10:53 <sbp> I have some experience of organisational proof models from DanC work at the W3C...
15:11:11 <sbp> not sure that's what I'm looking for though
15:11:13 <Arnia> sbp: it comes down to very simple topology... but I could suggest more refinements if I know more about what you're thinking of using it in :)
15:11:19 <sbp> yeah
15:11:26 <sbp> I think I need to write an article
15:11:42 <sbp> I don't entirely understand what I'm after yet :-)
15:11:54 <sbp> so actually, I need to write an essay. in its etymological sense
15:13:26 <Arnia> woo :)
15:13:34 * sbp does so
15:13:43 <Arnia> Appropriate I chose to call that section of my website the 'essays' section
15:14:09 <sbp> mmm
15:14:19 <sbp> I'm going with topic/ for my junk
15:14:41 <sbp> this'll be at topic/organisation
15:15:53 <Arnia> I'd love a sort of thinktank.swhack.com site... where we can shove our odd papers and essays
15:16:00 <perigrin> Arnia, I'm about to step out to lunch but I had a thought that couldn't your COMMAND/PROMISE pair be implemented in terms of ASK/TELL
15:16:02 <Arnia> Perhaps running something like Fermat's Last Margin
15:16:11 <perigrin> and ultimately ASK/TELL in terms of GET/POST ?
15:16:15 <sbp> .wik Fermat's Last Margin
15:16:20 <phenny> "In 1637 Pierre de Fermat wrote, in his copy of Claude-Gaspar Bachet's translation of the famous Arithmetica of Diophantus, 'I have a truly marvelous proof of this proposition which this margin is too narrow to contain.' (Original Latin: 'Cuius rei demonstrationem [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat's_last_theorem
15:16:27 <sbp> bad Wikipedia
15:17:15 <sbp> I get the gist from Google
15:17:19 <Arnia> perigrin: COMMAND/PROMISE could... but you'd lose the illocutionary information. Essentially there would be no easy way to analyse patterns of action (which is unfortunately needed at current technology)
15:17:52 <Arnia> perigrin: and the reason for not going with GET and POST (although you could use them) is that they have lots of semantic-baggage as well as being based on paths
15:18:00 <perigrin> I was just trying to boostrap my way in :)
15:18:11 <Arnia> perigrin: we're not GET'ing a path... we're ASK'ing a question
15:18:18 <perigrin> Right
15:18:23 <perigrin> it would totally be a kluge
15:18:29 <Arnia> perigrin: no, I appreciate it :) I'm just wary about klu... yes
15:18:45 <Arnia> sbp: one of shapr's play things
15:18:52 <perigrin> I just wanted to make sure I understood the idea properly enough though
15:19:00 <Arnia> Would work better with Napier documents
15:19:04 <perigrin> and that there wasn't some hidden concern
15:19:13 <Arnia> (then you could actually share the document itself rather than a PDF)
15:19:21 <perigrin> I agree the extra semantics are nice
15:21:01 <Arnia> perigrin: really the only two operations are push and pull (although in a more complex sense than document exchange) however I wanted COMMAND and PROMISE to explicitly signal negotiation of goals (whereas ASK and TELL are negotiations of understanding)
15:21:11 *** mmmmmrob has quit (Remote closed the connection)
15:21:42 * perigrin nods
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15:22:04 <Arnia> perigrin: GREET is there to support full decentralisation, indicating the opening of a dialogue (which persists until another GREET), and capability security (maybe, not sure about how I'm going to be doing that yet)
15:22:34 <perigrin> sure thought I think it should be spelt OHAI
15:22:41 <Arnia> There's a lot of awkwardness in our understanding of goal negotiation, and lots of tricks that are needed to deal with dynamism in the underlying world.
15:22:48 <Arnia> Oh yes, I agree
15:23:26 *** mmmmmrob has quit (Client Quit)
15:23:39 <perigrin> okay ... gotta move crap to the car so I can deal with it after lunch
15:24:02 <perigrin> I like the ideas though :)
15:24:21 <Arnia> danja: have you had a read?
15:24:25 * perigrin waves and goes to bundle up
15:24:27 <perigrin> .weather kmsp
15:24:31 <phenny> Overcast ☁, 1.4℉ (-17℃), 29.86in (1008mb), Gentle breeze 9kt (↑) - KMSP 10:53, 1653Z
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15:30:11 *** apsoliveira (n=Love@a213-22-99-180.cpe.netcabo.pt) has joined #swhack
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15:33:56 * Arnia tries to figure out the IEEE submission guidelines again
15:39:37 *** BoneyM (n=tron37@d226-18-101.home.cgocable.net) has joined #swhack
15:40:56 <sbp> alright, first draft is ready to read
15:41:12 <sbp> http://inamidst.com/topic/organisation
15:41:15 <sbp> get it whilst it's hot!
15:42:13 <Arnia> serfdom is bad?
15:42:16 <sbp> complete stream of consciousness at the moment
15:42:23 <sbp> I don't even know what serfdom means
15:42:28 <sbp> I put it in because it's a funny word
15:42:36 *** BoneyM has parted #swhack ()
15:42:40 <sbp> so I figured it was bound to be something that somebody thinks is bad
15:43:30 <sbp> this is the best sentence:
15:43:34 <sbp> “With a creative organisation, the aim are so complicated.”
15:43:43 <sbp> absolute proof that I have not so much as sanity checked the grammar yet
15:43:46 *** apsoliveira has quit ()
15:43:54 <sbp> ("aims are more complicated" is what I meant)
15:44:19 * sbp fixes just that
15:45:32 <sbp> heh. I love my paragraph of explanation about prototypicality
15:45:36 * sbp hugs it
15:46:05 * Arnia puts sbp on Ceefax
15:46:29 <Arnia> It is a very good paragraph though
15:46:37 * kpreid calls sbp's paragraph George.
15:46:37 <Arnia> I do like the example of a bath and a ship
15:46:49 <Arnia> (but the standard example there is chairs and stools)
15:46:49 *** _greg_ has quit ("Ex-Chat")
15:46:58 * sbp adds a link to http://inamidst.com/patterns/ChassigniteInterest
15:47:03 *** mmmmmrob has quit (Connection timed out)
15:47:07 <sbp> George the Prototypicality Paragraph
15:47:16 <sbp> chairs and stools: heh, yeah, I was going to use it
15:47:23 <sbp> but I thought NO! FIGHT THE POWER
15:47:30 * sbp uses chairs and stools in here recently, though, I think
15:47:44 <kpreid> were they thrown?
15:48:10 <sbp> not as such
15:48:18 <sbp> only pots tend to be thrown
15:48:24 <kpreid> were they thrones?
15:48:25 <sbp> it'd make chairs too brittle
15:48:27 <sbp> hehe
15:48:41 <Arnia> DARK THRONES OF ANTI-URI BLOOD
15:48:58 <Arnia> Coagulates really nicely if you add some vinegar
15:49:22 <kpreid> .ety vinegar
15:49:25 <phenny> "c.1300, from O.Fr. vinaigre, from vin 'wine' (from L. vinum, see wine) + aigre 'sour' (see eager)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=vinegar
15:50:02 <sbp> okay, added '(see also my essay on chassignite interests, which can be summarised as "internal interest is a powerful egalitarian currency")'
15:50:39 <sbp> the title of this essay is of course a play on:
15:50:42 <sbp> .title New Model Army
15:50:43 <sbp> by the way
15:50:45 <phenny> Can't connect to http://New
15:50:49 <sbp> er
15:50:55 <sbp> .wik New Model Army
15:50:59 <phenny> "The New Model Army was formed in 1645 by the Parliamentarians in the English Civil War." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Model_Army
15:51:46 * sbp adds a note about that
15:52:28 <sbp> done
15:52:35 <sbp> Arnia: so did that help to express my goals any?
15:53:22 <sbp> ostensibly I want to create a hypothetical organisation for creative historical re[-]creation
15:53:43 <sbp> but it's mainly an excuse to thoughtwank about the philosophy of sociology
15:54:42 <Arnia> Hm... prototypical aggregates with exemplars as actual organisations at a certain moment and similarity measured by each individual's beliefs of what the rules are and the goals they're looking to satisfy?
15:55:10 *** mmmmmrob_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:55:13 *** bjoern_ is now known as _bjoern
15:55:14 <sbp> pretty much, yeah
15:55:22 <Arnia> wow... that's a convoluted way of saying something very simple: 'birds of a feather, flock together'
15:55:28 <sbp> but also spelled out to the members in terms of words the length and difficulty of "duck"
15:55:34 <sbp> well I wondered that
15:55:37 <_bjoern> _sbp, _Arnia. _Hi.
15:55:38 <sbp> I'm not sure that it is though
15:55:54 <sbp> because in that case, people will still create organisations which are fragile and shitty
15:56:00 <sbp> _HELLO_
15:56:02 <sbp> _MISTER_
15:56:04 <sbp> _BJOERN_
15:56:31 <_bjoern> _your _style _is _inconsistent.
15:56:36 <Arnia> sbp: well, a rule is a description of an organisation... a collection of rules is the description of an organisation which is described by each of the rules
15:56:39 * sbp is now known as _sbp, sbp_, *and* _sbp_ in junction
15:56:44 <Arnia> (insert uncertainty)
15:56:59 <sbp> welp, see what I said earlier...
15:57:00 * sbp rummages
15:57:04 <_bjoern> Can't, there is a duck in the way.
15:57:09 <sbp> <sbp> I was thinking more like a minimal set of rules that would allow people to play interesting games of organisational nomic, that introduced ideas from prototypicality theory (so groups don't shatter, they just mutate)
15:57:25 <sbp> medic! clear _bjoern's duckslot!
15:57:31 <Arnia> Think of a rule as a prototype of an organisation then
15:57:58 <_bjoern> Mine? Why would you insert uncertainty into my duckslot, then?
15:57:58 <sbp> right. so now I'm thinking about defining an organisation which is prototypically defined in as minimally a way as possible
15:58:01 <Arnia> Or rather, as the *simplest* prototype
15:58:11 <sbp> simplest... indeed
15:58:34 <sbp> (I know that's a different thing from my minimality)
15:58:35 <_bjoern> Is simplest the same as minimally complex?
15:58:38 <sbp> no
15:59:00 <sbp> we're talking about different things
15:59:01 <_bjoern> no
15:59:26 <_bjoern> I never talk about anything here, I just spit out random notes.
15:59:31 <_bjoern> You should have noticed that by now.
15:59:43 <sbp> I mean: I want to make an organisation that can be used as the prototype for other cool organisations, and to do so I need to make sure that it doesn't have lots of crufty rules that inhibit said derived organisations into being sucky
16:00:13 <Arnia> But similarity distributes over products... so if you have Organisation 1 described by a set of rules R1, R2, R2, etc. and Organisation 2 described by a set of rules S1, S2, S3, then the similarity of the two should be describable in terms of the similarity of each pair of rules taken from from each organisation
16:00:19 <sbp> Arnia means: a prototype *subsists* in terms of the least-rules that define that prototype (I think)
16:00:35 <sbp> yeah
16:00:36 <Arnia> sbp: exactly
16:00:42 <sbp> so I was thinking how that would translate into social actions
16:00:57 <sbp> I mean, old school you put stickers on your car and in your window
16:01:22 <sbp> and you write on your website "I belong to the EBMCABPC", which of course really means that you paid them £20 and haven't been to a single meeting
16:01:28 <Arnia> Well, do you think people join organisations to further their own interests
16:01:37 <sbp> yeah, sure. sometimes
16:01:48 <sbp> I'd certainly hope that people could do that
16:02:11 <Arnia> I'd guess that people promote organisations as a result of the promotion furthering their goals
16:02:18 <sbp> you can't have professional groups like that though, of course. they tend to have "Associate Member" levels of commitment for that...
16:02:29 <sbp> aye
16:02:32 <Arnia> So if their goal is to impress people, they'd join organisations which make them sound impressive
16:02:46 <sbp> like an RSPB sticker says "save the birdies, for goodness' sake!" as much as it says "I am a member of the RSPB"
16:02:59 <Arnia> If their goal is to further their interests in 14th century heraldry then they'll try and get people to join other heraldry groups
16:03:18 <sbp> ah yes, but then that's antithetical to the idea of an exciting heraldry group!
16:03:21 <sbp> that's my Dilemma
16:03:29 <_bjoern> .compare rsbp rspb
16:03:32 <phenny> rspb (1,040,000), rsbp (19,800)
16:03:37 <Arnia> or rather, their heraldry group because that one is obviously the best (cognitive selection bias)
16:03:58 <sbp> because having arms registered with the Royal College of Arms is far more exciting than having one registered with the SCA or whoever, because it has legal and traditional grounding
16:04:08 <sbp> it's amazing to me how powerful that is
16:04:13 <Arnia> But less flexibility
16:04:16 <sbp> because it's *no* different in any other respect
16:04:23 <sbp> aye, that's a point. disadvantages too
16:04:35 <Arnia> It is a trade off... you gain stature in people's minds by exclusivity
16:04:40 <sbp> well the main disadvantage is of course the huge problem that you need to be of high social standing. it's not a chassignite interest
16:04:46 <sbp> mmm
16:05:09 <Arnia> Ok... so how were you thinking of applying this?
16:05:24 <sbp> well that's a funny thing about the SCA that I didn't mention in the essay: they start everybody off as a minor member of the nobility. there's literally no serfdom in there. doesn't exist because the lowest position is a member of the gentry
16:05:34 <sbp> but then that got me thinking, doesn't that *abolish* the gentry! like the Quakers
16:05:35 <cre8radix> re
16:05:45 <sbp> for Quakers, there is no laity
16:05:58 <sbp> the laity are abolished. so in effect, all the priests are the laity
16:06:19 <sbp> when you get rid of a pole, you get rid of the other pole too
16:06:26 <sbp> anyway, application...
16:06:28 <sbp> no freaking clue
16:06:31 <Arnia> mm... monopoles
16:06:31 <sbp> :-)
16:06:35 <sbp> hehe
16:06:36 <Arnia> monorussians
16:07:09 <Arnia> monoamine deoxidase reuptake inhibitor
16:07:23 <sbp> *de*oxidase?
16:07:26 <sbp> .wik MORI
16:07:28 *** pierpa` (n=user@host41-198-dynamic.27-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
16:07:29 <phenny> "Ipsos MORI is the second largest survey research organisation in the UK, formed by two of the UK's leading companies in October 2005." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MORI
16:07:32 <sbp> oh, heh
16:07:36 <sbp> man, what am I thinking of?
16:07:45 <sbp> .wik Anti-depressant
16:07:48 <phenny> "An antidepressant is a psychiatric medication or other substance (nutrient or herb) used for alleviating depression or dysthymia ('milder' depression)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-depressant
16:07:55 * Arnia smashes sbp's free radicals
16:08:09 <sbp> oh yes, MAOI
16:08:23 <sbp> anyway...
16:08:24 <Arnia> I'm asleep... ignore me
16:08:31 * sbp thinks about application a bit more
16:08:34 * Arnia is grumpy as well
16:08:41 <sbp> really it was just to find out what I don't like about the SCA
16:08:48 <sbp> because I like some of the SCA bits, but I don't like other bits
16:08:49 <Arnia> Have managed to get sinus problems without a cold... special
16:08:54 <sbp> such that I dislike it enough to not join
16:09:00 <sbp> freaky
16:09:06 <sbp> and I wanted to figure out why
16:09:24 <sbp> it just happened to involve a philosowank, which is great
16:09:29 <Arnia> hehe
16:09:42 * Arnia should write another article
16:09:46 <sbp> yeah!
16:09:51 <sbp> thinktank.
16:10:37 *** pierpa has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:10:45 <sbp> there is a bit of tav syndrome here, I should note:
16:10:54 <sbp> * I should join a recreation society
16:11:00 <sbp> * ooh, the one I want to join sucks
16:11:08 <sbp> * I should create the perfect recreation society!
16:11:15 <sbp> * this means I must create the perfect society
16:11:21 <sbp> * [reads Sir Thomas More's Utopia]
16:11:42 <Arnia> I mean... I should write a journal article :) I need to get some more publications out there to sell my ideas
16:11:53 * sbp waves kindly to tav should he happen to read backscroll
16:11:58 * xover was expecting Machiavelli…
16:11:59 <sbp> oho
16:12:05 <sbp> xover: bwahaha
16:12:35 <Arnia> Most people couldn't give two figs however
16:12:45 <sbp> two figs about your ideas?
16:12:51 * Arnia wants an idiomety
16:12:54 <Arnia> sbp: yeah
16:13:03 <sbp> at least they'll be out there
16:13:18 <Arnia> I'm an overprotective parent
16:13:21 <sbp> if they have intrinsic merit, that can't be taken away
16:13:24 <Arnia> I want to keep them nice and safe
16:13:38 <sbp> but of course that merit doesn't exist unless the right people observe them
16:13:53 <sbp> why's that though? scared they'll be abused?
16:14:05 <sbp> in the same way that Ted Nelson thinks TimBL so massively abused his ideas? :-)
16:14:43 <sbp> (seriously, why?)
16:15:42 <Arnia> I just think that people will mock them and then corrupt them into something... less. Not even a trade off between practicality and theoretical perfection. They'll miss the point, complain that they're unwieldy, then implement a half-way solution in the name of worse-is-better when it is actually worse-is-worse
16:15:44 <sbp> like, I often wonder why Emily Dickinson didn't seriously try to get her poems published
16:15:48 <twe> They'll have to implement in java.
16:15:54 <sbp> AAAAAAHHHHHHH
16:15:54 <Arnia> ...
16:15:56 <kpreid> (frivolously, AARDVARKS!)
16:16:13 * Arnia suspects kpreid has been replaced by twe
16:16:21 <sbp> and vice versa
16:16:25 <Arnia> yeah
16:16:27 <sbp> burrrrnnn
16:16:28 <sbp> hehe
16:16:47 *** Xavier_ (i=steve@ilo.staticfree.info) has joined #swhack
16:16:48 <sbp> well people can't destroy your original idea
16:16:54 <sbp> your original papers will still exist, I mean
16:17:00 <kpreid> well.
16:17:06 <sbp> whereas if you don't publish them, nothing at all will happen
16:17:25 <sbp> so even the worst publish case is better than the best not-publish case
16:17:27 <Arnia> anyway, the problem is that people won't bother reading around the subject, and submission limits and simple time prohibit me parcelling everything up
16:17:28 <sbp> within this domain
16:17:45 <kpreid> Author publishes idea X. Variation X' becomes popular. Hearing X people think ‘isn't that just X'?’. X is thus effectively dead.
16:17:46 <Arnia> so they'll attribute things to me I don't intend and in fact disagree with
16:18:14 <sbp> yeah, but it's that effectively that gets me
16:18:14 * Arnia applies the alpha reduction to kpreid's sentence
16:18:18 <Arnia> (s)
16:18:23 <sbp> that's thinking about a timescale of decades, not centuries
16:18:40 <sbp> X only dies when all its links are removed. it's like an inode
16:19:00 <sbp> carve it on the wall of some cave in France and you'll be grand
16:19:16 <sbp> or have Johanna von Gogh Bonger as your sister in law
16:19:19 <Arnia> I don't want fame (except as a means to an end)... I just want to get things done well. Witness some of the discussions I've had in swig
16:19:22 <sbp> s/von/van/
16:19:22 *** Xavier_ is now known as xavier
16:19:54 <sbp> if you want things done well, you have to perform some action though, right?
16:20:16 <sbp> otherwise you're effectively sucking in air, rubbing your chin and going "ooh, the world's fucked up good"
16:20:29 <Arnia> yeah, but I'm afraid of doing the wrong action at the wrong time
16:20:35 <sbp> mmm
16:20:38 <sbp> hmm...
16:22:08 <sbp> we should form a secret society where disjunction isn't possble
16:22:28 <sbp> it'll be like RDF Schema. no inconsistency with the model theory possible! (unless you use badly formed XML)
16:22:47 <Arnia> Say I publish all this and it goes precisely nowhere because I've done the evangelism wrong... people in the future will then point to the idea going nowhere and prejudge it as being a bad idea simply on that basis
16:23:06 <sbp> what's the alternative though?
16:23:24 <Arnia> Getting it right
16:23:30 <Arnia> But I don't know how to do that...
16:23:54 *** darobin has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:24:07 <sbp> maybe Johanna'll take care of it
16:25:03 * sbp chortles at:
16:25:03 <sbp> 17:55 <Arnia> and seagulls are shifty bastards
16:25:04 <sbp> 17:55 <Arnia> They're like the chavs of the avian world round where I am
16:25:17 <sbp> brown and black headed gulls are kinda cool, though
16:25:17 <Arnia> Right... so step one is to persuade my brother to marry timbl
16:25:22 <sbp> totally unlike regular seagulls
16:25:24 <sbp> hehe
16:25:34 <sbp> brown headed gulls look like terns. it's interesting
16:25:41 *** laplink (n=link@193.157.66.108) has joined #swhack
16:25:58 * sbp videoed some the other day
16:26:14 <sbp> ("videoed" is a weird word. like "subtlely")
16:26:20 <Arnia> I thought the tern now was 'vod'ed'
16:26:23 <sbp> heh
16:26:54 <sbp> actually no, I don't get that. I thought I did
16:27:10 <Arnia> hm?
16:27:16 <sbp> I thought tern was an awesome, awesome typo for term
16:27:36 <sbp> and that vod'ed was a play on the kind of odd things people do when they try to form a verb they're not used to
16:27:42 <sbp> .origin Morbus
16:27:46 <phenny> First saw Morbus on #swhack at 2001-08-31 03:16:05, who then first said "god, you use'd rage? bwahahah." (see http://swhack.com/logs/2001-08-31#T03-16-05)
16:27:51 <sbp> like that :-)
16:28:26 <Arnia> yes, that was the case
16:28:34 <Arnia> vodded just sounds... odd
16:28:40 <Arnia> or looks odd rather
16:28:46 <Arnia> It sounds exactly the same
16:30:34 <sbp> ahas
16:30:38 * sbp -> Simpsons
16:30:51 <sbp> which ironically starts with historical re-creation
16:30:56 <Arnia> hah
16:31:03 * Arnia -> pub
16:31:08 <Arnia> Shortly at least
16:31:09 <sbp> must be Lisa's future thingy
16:31:16 <sbp> :-)
16:31:47 <bancus> .origin bancus
16:31:59 <phenny> First saw bancus on #swhack at 2004-08-16 02:13:30, who then first said '*the* befunge interpreter for python?' (see http://swhack.com/logs/2004-08-16#T02-13-30)
16:32:12 <bancus> Sounds like something I'd say.
16:32:19 <sbp> man, the Esquilax
16:32:23 <sbp> yeah
16:32:42 <sbp> few comments on SCAishness in backscroll by the way, bancus!
16:35:07 <Arnia> .origin Arnia
16:35:15 <phenny> First saw Arnia on #swhack at 2004-07-16 04:27:28, who then first said 'Its morning :p' (see http://swhack.com/logs/2004-07-16#T04-27-28)
16:35:51 <sbp> funny, the poster on the wall in this "future" episode says 2010
16:37:47 <sbp> rotary videophones for the win
16:38:36 <Arnia> oh, sbp... read up on game theory for giving semantics to formal languages
16:38:42 <Arnia> and... http://www.vidlit.com/craziest/
16:40:18 * Arnia has succeeded in undermining swig yet again
16:40:34 * nsh giggles
16:42:49 <tonybaloney> Arnia: what happened this time?
16:43:07 <Arnia> They're discussing the craftiness of birds
16:52:17 <nsh> .ety onerous
16:52:21 <phenny> "c.1400, from O.Fr. (h)onereus (14c., Mod.Fr. onéreux), from L. onerosus, from onus (gen. oneris) 'burden.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=onerous
16:52:28 <nsh> .ety onus
16:52:31 <phenny> "c.1640, from L. onus (gen. oneris) 'load, burden.' Hence legal L. onus probandi (1722), lit. 'burden of proving.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=onus
16:54:53 <jsled> <jsled> Oh, you're trying to use Word to apply the XSLT to the gnucash xml file?
16:55:08 *** JibberJim has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
16:55:09 <Arnia> ...
16:55:15 <jsled> This whole "running on windows" thing has been very interesting.
16:57:14 *** pauld has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:11:01 * sbp watches "craziest" as far as zee and nukes it
17:16:12 *** leobard has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:25:39 * nsh frowns
17:27:32 <cr`x> If pubs are anti-productive, I don't want to be productive
17:27:47 <sbp> Five Things Done, Bitch
17:28:42 <xover> <insert topically relevant ranting here>
17:29:20 <nsh> hmmm
17:29:37 <sbp> YO NSH
17:30:04 <cr`x> hmmm. first christians, now ducks.
17:30:43 <kpreid> NO.
17:30:59 <sbp> http://makeuseof.com/tech-fun/images/i-am-linux.jpg
17:31:16 <sbp> .compare arserats arseducks
17:31:19 <phenny> arserats (1), arseducks (0)
17:31:26 <kpreid> [off} when you say “have”...
17:31:37 <xover> .gc arse-gut
17:31:40 <phenny> arse-gut: 386
17:31:41 <sbp> hehe
17:31:47 <kpreid> .gs arse-gut *
17:31:49 <phenny> arse-gut *: like (2), wrenching, to, that, riscontro, of, man, fell, fallen, drum, caused him, caused, bucket
17:32:27 <sbp> fell is a result on Swhack
17:32:34 <sbp> 2007-08-17 Swhack IRC Log
17:32:36 <sbp> 15:52:01 <bjoern_> Yahoo! News indeed 15:52:04 <sbp> its arse-gut fell out? 15:52:13 <jsled> YSlow is awesome. 15:52:26 <MoiraA_> something like that :) ...
17:32:36 <sbp> swhack.com/logs/2007-08-17
17:33:03 <kpreid> name something is a result not on Swhack
17:33:10 <kpreid> ...something that...
17:33:20 <xover> [off} sbp: What do you mean you “sleep with” ducks? Like you still keep your stuffed toys, or did you really mean you have intercourse with Anatidae?
17:33:25 <_bjoern> They invented a new trick to escape Web Architecture discussions
17:33:25 <xover> *woops*
17:33:27 <_bjoern> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jan/0049.html
17:34:08 <sbp> okay. I need to read that again
17:34:38 <sbp> okay, now it's just the last twenty words or so I'm having a problem with
17:34:41 <Arnia> _bjoern: Use UDP?
17:34:47 <twe> I think i read just that the problem.
17:34:56 <sbp> okay now I understand
17:35:05 <_bjoern> apparently so. Note that there is a HTTP over UDP spec...
17:35:34 <sbp> so in your opinion, is the register-a-link-following more like an HTTP GET, or an HTTP GET over UDP?
17:35:54 <jsled> it's more like a TELL, it sounds like.
17:35:57 <sbp> heh!
17:36:03 <xover> …or is it crackpipe material and all associated with the proposal should be shot on sight?
17:36:09 <_bjoern> I thought you'd ask HTTP/UDP GET or HTTP/UDP POST.
17:36:09 <sbp> GREET IN THE FACE
17:36:14 * Arnia hugs TELL and defends it from xover
17:36:14 <xover> TimBL included.
17:36:27 <sbp> ah, you thought wrongly my friend
17:36:28 * nsh frowns, has a bath
17:36:44 * sbp taunts _bjoern's duckslot with the forbidden duck
17:37:04 *** jsled changed the topic to: "<twe> I'll pass that on when twe is a separate field of interdisciplinary study, combining elements of q1 and q2 in weird ways. || <sbp> GREET IN THE FACE"
17:37:05 * _bjoern allows the forbidden duck, making it the unforbidden duck
17:37:05 <Arnia> An extension of HTTP-Active... GREET IN THE FACE is used for when one agent is particularly angry with the other
17:37:13 <sbp> touché
17:37:44 <Arnia> Unforbidding Water Fowl over UDP
17:38:01 <sbp> hmm
17:38:10 <sbp> it occurs to me that "oof" in Welsh is wff
17:38:16 *** [US]MatchMaker (n=sanjiv@a91-152-176-85.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #swhack
17:38:16 <sbp> that's funny
17:38:18 <sbp> I like that
17:38:23 <[US]MatchMaker> hey sbp
17:38:23 <sbp> hello [US]MatchMaker
17:38:28 <sbp> what's up?
17:38:35 <[US]MatchMaker> can you help me make my phenny to auto voice peoples?
17:38:40 <_bjoern> Earlier today I tried to find en words where rot13(word) is another en word.
17:38:40 <sbp> sure
17:38:54 <Arnia> Right... really time to get pub-wards
17:39:03 <sbp> c'ya Arnia
17:39:09 <Arnia> Otherwise I'm never going to get everything done
17:39:09 <xover> cya
17:39:11 <_bjoern> Came up empty, but that might well be my wordlist, containing way too many non-words.
17:39:11 <Arnia> Speak later
17:39:26 *** Arnia has quit ()
17:39:32 <[US]MatchMaker> what file i can use as base?
17:39:35 <[US]MatchMaker> for autovoice?
17:40:01 <sbp> [US]MatchMaker: I'd suggest something like monty.py
17:40:02 <Monty> Do you feel strongly about discussing such things ?
17:40:10 <sbp> is your phenny instance running on Freenode?
17:40:13 <sbp> because that makes it fairly easy
17:40:23 <[US]MatchMaker> it runs on quakenet
17:40:56 <[US]MatchMaker> i mean it is in quakenet not in freenode :)
17:41:13 <sbp> gotcha. hmm
17:41:22 <sbp> so how do you voice people on quakenet?
17:41:26 <sbp> I mean, like in your client
17:41:44 <kpreid> Hey, anyone have a suggestion for an already-existant protocol for transporting variable-length messages over a byte stream (as in TCP)?
17:41:48 <[US]MatchMaker> /voice people namehere
17:41:55 <[US]MatchMaker> /voice peoplenamehere
17:42:06 <kpreid> I'll implement it myself, but I thought not to reinvent a protocol...
17:42:08 <sbp> does quakenet have any equivalent of a ChanServ?
17:42:22 <xover> kpreid: Specifics / Context?
17:42:22 <[US]MatchMaker> there is q bot and l bot
17:42:24 <[US]MatchMaker> and s bot
17:42:28 <kpreid> xover: that's all there is!
17:42:39 <[US]MatchMaker> its like almost same like chanserv
17:42:50 <xover> kpreid: Then the answer would be, “Yes.”
17:43:03 <kpreid> xover: more precisely, I'm doing this all modular 'n stuff, so I don't want to admit to the other details :)
17:43:12 <[US]MatchMaker> sbp: are you there?
17:43:12 <sbp> [US]MatchMaker: self.push('MODE #channel +v nickname\r\n') is the main gist
17:43:23 <[US]MatchMaker> in monty.py?
17:43:24 <sbp> obviously you need to substitute the right values for channel and nickname
17:43:24 <Monty> ForgottenCatalogues?
17:43:30 <sbp> well, you'll need to edit it a bit too
17:43:35 <kpreid> xover: can you provide a link or something?
17:43:39 <sbp> I can't just write the module for you. you have to know some python...
17:43:51 <sbp> but I've given ya the essential bit
17:43:57 <[US]MatchMaker> i know a little
17:43:58 *** jewel has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:43:59 <kpreid> I don't need any additional metadata, tho if there's a message-type field that would be just fine too
17:44:40 <xover> kpreid: HTTP, SMTP, etc.; all with ready libs, can do that just fine. NNTP, also.
17:44:50 <sbp> see http://www.python.org/community/lists/ if you need further help
17:44:56 <sbp> especially python-help. there's also #python on Freenode
17:45:00 <xover> And, say, HTTP, doesn't need a lot of overhead to still be HTTP.
17:45:06 <kpreid> xover: sure, but they've got all sorts of irrelevant bits
17:45:16 <[US]MatchMaker> i just add this line on monty.py file?
17:45:17 <[US]MatchMaker> self.push('MODE #channel +v nickname\r\n')
17:45:18 <Monty> two should form a very interesting.
17:45:19 <kpreid> like, say, Connection: close
17:45:27 <kpreid> that would be very bad for my invariants :)
17:45:28 <sbp> as I say, you'll need to do some other programming too
17:45:29 <xover> kpreid: Optional.
17:45:31 *** Talliesin has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:45:34 *** dmiles has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:45:40 <sbp> and I don't have time to explain everything that you need to change
17:45:42 <[US]MatchMaker> could you help me?
17:45:51 <[US]MatchMaker> i know python a little
17:45:53 <sbp> I can't help you anymore than I have, nope. I'm pretty busy, sorry
17:45:56 <kpreid> xover: but I'd be throwing a dummy POST or something on every line. and parsing. *way* too much overhead
17:46:12 <sbp> http://www.python.org/community/lists/ is a list of places you can get python help
17:46:16 <sbp> especially python-help
17:46:21 *** dmiles_afk (i=dmiles@c-24-16-244-113.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
17:46:21 <sbp> and there's #python on Freenode
17:46:38 <kpreid> xover: I want something that's reasonably efficient for gobs of ten-byte messages, say
17:46:43 <[US]MatchMaker> but this is your program
17:46:46 <[US]MatchMaker> and you can help me
17:46:47 <[US]MatchMaker> :)
17:47:04 <xover> [[[
17:47:05 <xover> MSG id=4;d=0xDEADBEEF HTTP/0.9
17:47:05 <xover> ]]] - complete, valid, HTTP request.
17:47:07 <sbp> no I can't, because I have many other things that I need to do
17:47:15 <sbp> real work, etc.
17:47:21 <[US]MatchMaker> def f_join(self, origin, match, args):
17:47:22 <[US]MatchMaker> self.msg(origin.sender, "%s has joined. args: %s" % args)
17:47:22 <[US]MatchMaker> self.push('MODE #channel +v nickname\r\n')
17:47:22 <[US]MatchMaker> f_join.rule = '(.*)'
17:47:22 <[US]MatchMaker> f_join.command = 'JOIN'
17:47:25 <[US]MatchMaker> is that right?
17:47:39 <kpreid> xover: but the payload in that scenario is either hex-encoded (bloat, processing time) or can't contain \n &c
17:47:53 <xover> Hmm.
17:48:00 <[US]MatchMaker> sbp:
17:48:31 <kpreid> xover: also, I want the implementation to be straightforward -- I'm doing this in a not-yet-really-very-efficiently-implemented language
17:48:44 <xover> Are you sure you can't just open a TCP socket and pass your raw binary data back and forth?
17:48:53 <kpreid> No message boundaries.
17:49:08 <kpreid> That's all I want -- message boundaries.
17:49:08 <xover> Any significant structure on 10 byte packets is going to be ridiculous overhead very fast.
17:49:29 <xover> And not to mention the TCP headers will be much largr then the data you pass.
17:49:33 <kpreid> Of course.
17:49:34 <radii> you could pass bencoded messages.
17:49:56 * xover tries to think of a suitable TCP-based protocol that could be hijacked for this…
17:49:58 <kpreid> All I want is some already-invented scheme for delimiting the messages.
17:50:17 <[US]MatchMaker> is here anyone who have made the autovoice for the phenny?
17:50:35 <radii> kpreid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bencode
17:50:39 <xover> Like Base64 blobs separated by NUL bytes?
17:50:43 <[US]MatchMaker> is here anyone who have made the autovoice for the phenny?
17:51:33 <kpreid> xover: sure that'd work, but...
17:51:56 <kpreid> radii: hmm.
17:52:17 <[US]MatchMaker> is here anyone who have made the autovoice for the phenny?
17:52:41 <kpreid> ooh. netstrings.
17:52:43 <[US]MatchMaker> is here anyone who have made the autovoice for the phenny?
17:52:46 <cr`x> is here anyone who have made the autovoice for the phenny?
17:52:55 <kpreid> [US]MatchMaker: Repeating yourself won't make them appear.
17:52:56 <[US]MatchMaker> cr`cx
17:52:59 <[US]MatchMaker> :(
17:53:00 <kpreid> In fact, it
17:53:05 <kpreid> In fact, it's likely to make you disappear.
17:53:19 <cr`x> :o
17:53:23 <xover> .wik Reliable User Datagram Protocol
17:53:26 <phenny> "In computer networking, the Reliable User Datagram Protocol (RUDP) is a transport layer protocol designed at Bell Labs for the Plan 9 operating system." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliable_User_Datagram_Protocol
17:53:27 <kpreid> radii, xover: any reason I shouldn't just use http://cr.yp.to/proto/netstrings.txt ?
17:53:35 <[US]MatchMaker> kpreid
17:53:48 <[US]MatchMaker> you have autovoice codee?
17:53:55 <kpreid> I do not.
17:54:07 <[US]MatchMaker> cr`x
17:54:10 <[US]MatchMaker> you have?
17:54:15 <radii> kpreid: that looks fine at a quick glance
17:54:25 <kpreid> xover: I need ordering, encryption, and authentication, so I'm building this over SSL over TCP
17:54:43 <radii> I like bencode's native dictionary support (very nice for doing pythonish things), but if you don't need that it's just overhead.
17:55:47 <xover> That's hella lot of overhead for 10 byte messages.
17:56:02 <kpreid> xover: well, yes, but it's necessary overhead
17:56:10 <xover> But from a brief glance at netstring it looks like it might fit the bill.
17:56:19 <kpreid> oh, clarification... these are long-lived connections
17:56:52 <deltab> or just length/data, repeated
17:57:14 <xover> deltab: That has synchronization issues, non?
17:57:37 <deltab> e.g. 32-bit length
17:57:40 <kpreid> well, so do netstrings or anything but an escaping-based protocol
17:58:14 <kpreid> I'm not worried about that too much -- provided I keep the message boundary layer nice and trivial
17:58:32 <xover> You know, I'm still inclined to suggest doing this over HTTP.
17:58:42 <kpreid> and the netstrings ',' expectation gives a 255:1 chance of detecting desync
17:59:02 <kpreid> (well, it would if byte usage were uniformly distributed, which it isn't)
17:59:02 <xover> If the connections are long lived, the initial setup overhead (for both TCP and HTTP 1.1 Keep-Alive) is a small issue.
17:59:54 <kpreid> but bringing in HTTP adds all these totally irrelevant semantic expectations
18:00:01 <xover> And with a custom HTTP verb analogus to POST; or, inded, stuffing a netstring into my previous example…
18:00:36 <xover> SO don't refer to it as HTTP?
18:00:42 <kpreid> well, it'd have to be in the body, not the request header
18:00:46 <kpreid> because, \n and so on
18:00:56 <kpreid> Then I'd be implementing a funky HTTP parser for no good reason.
18:01:10 <sbp> kpreid: what kind of data are you actually passing around? strings? ints? something more complex?
18:01:25 <sbp> (sorry if you already said. I've read 80% of this conversation)
18:01:32 <[US]MatchMaker> sbp you runner
18:01:34 <kpreid> sbp: it's Something More Complex, but that's already handled
18:02:38 <sbp> runner?
18:02:40 <kpreid> that is, at this layer I have binary blobs I want to shove in the pipe
18:02:45 <sbp> kpreid: okay, fair enough
18:03:34 <xover> .title http://messip.sourceforge.net/
18:03:37 <phenny> xover: MESSIP - Message Passing over TCP/IP
18:04:07 *** lisppaste2 has quit (Remote closed the connection)
18:04:15 <xover> (comes with baggege, though)
18:04:36 <sbp> if you end up inventing something, please document it...
18:04:37 <kpreid> indeed. I'm already doing all that stuff myself :)
18:04:56 <kpreid> message passing &c is the aforementioned higher layer
18:05:12 <sbp> on the other hand, it sounds like this is something trivial enough to not warrant a specification
18:05:18 <sbp> which might be why we can't find one to leverage
18:05:42 <kpreid> well, netstrings is a specification, and a pretty trivial one...
18:05:52 <sbp> yeah, but it's djb man!
18:06:07 <sbp> beauty leaks out of that dude's ass. he just can't help it
18:06:39 <kpreid> ...
18:07:08 <sbp> you heard
18:07:13 <xover> What you want is essentially UDP, only with reliability and ordering etc.
18:07:46 <kpreid> ...and no packet size limit
18:07:57 <xover> I thought you said 10 bytes?
18:08:04 <sbp> I really suspect you're overthinking. put it this way: would including some library that Does What You Want cause more hassle than rolling the solution yourself?
18:08:13 <sbp> is the solution, in other words, gonna be more than like 20 lines?
18:08:18 <kpreid> sbp: I'm not looking for a library
18:08:24 <kpreid> I'm looking for a format
18:08:50 <sbp> so even if there is a format to use, you won't make use of any existing tools for it?
18:09:16 <sbp> I really suspect over-engineering here
18:09:26 <kpreid> well, I doubt they've been written in E
18:09:33 <sbp> heh, point
18:09:57 <kpreid> xover: gobs of ten-byte messages is just one of the possible kinds of traffic
18:10:12 <xover> ah
18:10:30 <sbp> what are the synchronisation issues with length/data?
18:10:42 <deltab> kpreid: when you say no limit, it could be more than 5 gigabytes?
18:11:07 <kpreid> deltab: in principle, yes, in practice your local heap is going to go pfft first
18:11:43 <kpreid> this is more a case of "no pre-specified limits" than "very big stuff goes here"
18:11:49 * nsh frowns
18:12:02 <nsh> what are y'all talking around?
18:12:05 <deltab> so no 16 EiB limit, then
18:12:48 <kpreid> anyway, unless someone comes up with a wonderful new idea, I'm going with adjacent netstrings...
18:13:01 <deltab> kpreid: is it a text protocol?
18:13:06 <kpreid> deltab: no.
18:13:22 <kpreid> (maybe it should be, but it isn't)
18:13:52 <deltab> netstrings use lengths coded in decimal in ASCII
18:14:03 <kpreid> yup, so?
18:14:04 *** libby (n=libby@77-101-209-30.cable.ubr04.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
18:14:06 <deltab> that's inefficient
18:14:26 <kpreid> yup, so?
18:14:40 <deltab> conversion to decimal took about a third of the time in DJB's logging tool, iirc
18:14:54 <deltab> which is why it uses hex
18:14:57 <kpreid> it's inefficient in a rather small way compared to some of the other things I'm dealing with
18:15:20 <deltab> means more coding
18:15:27 <kpreid> than...?
18:15:57 <deltab> something simpler
18:16:02 <kpreid> such as?
18:16:31 <deltab> a fixed-size binary length field
18:16:47 *** lisppaste2 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #swhack
18:17:42 <xover> If all you actually want is a transfer encoding, then netstrings == Base64 == <custom tailored encoding>.
18:17:48 *** [US]MatchMaker has quit ("bye")
18:18:09 <xover> And you choose between them by which factors you want to optimize for.
18:18:17 <twe> Between you and you can't the full path really.
18:18:18 <kpreid> Yup.
18:18:26 <kpreid> I can replace this any time.
18:18:51 <xover> Then you're optimizing prematurely; go with whatever will work now, and tweak it when you need to.
18:18:57 <twe> Now i am about to now.
18:19:05 <kpreid> So right now what I'm interested is: easy to implement, and not horribly inefficient in number-of-operations
18:19:06 <deltab> base64 doesn't include length, except accidentally when padding is needed
18:19:26 <deltab> and it's designed for putting bytes through character channels
18:19:44 <sbp> nsh: they're trying to make a seven page specification for passing unstructured octets over TCP
18:20:01 <xover> No, but B64 is a finite set of bit combinatios and so can be readily escaped/terminated in the stream.
18:20:08 <nsh> you guys are nuts.
18:20:12 <kpreid> well, we may spend seven pages of argument, but I hope the result is shorter!
18:20:28 <sbp> :-)
18:20:38 <deltab> delimiters need to be searched for, byte by byte
18:20:41 * kpreid starts writing the test/spec file.
18:20:45 <kpreid> Ooh.
18:20:51 <kpreid> Should I write the test such that it doesn't even specify the format?
18:20:53 <deltab> a length prefix is faster if you can use it
18:21:07 <xover> And the optimization relevant to B64 would be the possibly existing library implementing B64; vs. having to implement netstrings.
18:21:18 <deltab> yeah, just make assertions about its abilities
18:21:42 <kpreid> Okay, let's see, I need an encoder, a pipe, and a decoder...
18:21:51 <xover> (No disagreement on the technical properties of the two, btw, deltab)
18:24:57 <xover> .wik Ascii85
18:25:00 <phenny> "Ascii85 (also called 'Base85') is a form of binary-to-text encoding developed by Paul E. Rutter for the btoa utility." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascii85
18:25:06 <xover> .wik yEnc
18:25:09 <phenny> "yEnc is a binary-to-text encoding scheme for transferring binary files in messages on Usenet or via e-mail." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YEnc
18:25:12 <xover> (just BTW)
18:26:37 <xover> kpreid: Do keep us updated on this project, BTW. Now you've gone and gotten me all intrigued and stuff. :-)
18:26:49 <kpreid> Ack ook yeep.
18:27:29 <sbp> I still don't get what's wrong with the length/data design over the delim design
18:27:45 <xover> nothing :-)
18:27:52 <sbp> you mentioned sync issues?
18:28:21 <xover> Yeah. If you get out of sync in such a stream there's no way to get back in sync (without additional protocol logic).
18:28:53 <sbp> hmm. how would you get out of sync in such a way that wouldn't also fuck the delim design up?
18:28:59 <kpreid> I don't care about getting back in sync. It would be nice, however, if out of sync causes prompt failures.
18:29:11 <xover> But then in a TCP session, rather then UDP stream, this isn't likely to be a problem.
18:29:24 *** cr`x has quit ("Leaving...")
18:31:03 <xover> sbp: Using delimiters you can resync by scanning for the nearest delimiter.
18:31:38 <sbp> yeah, but what's the outer context of this? if you miss a message, will everything be completely hosed?
18:31:46 <sbp> because if so, it's irrelevant
18:32:04 <xover> Hmm.
18:32:32 <sbp> cf. kpreid's "prompt failure" requirement, I guess
18:32:42 <kpreid> s/requirement/preference/
18:32:44 <sbp> implication: yes it will be
18:32:45 <xover> In the context of TCP, any plausible event that might lose you your sync would be one that TCP allready handles.
18:32:45 <sbp> oh
18:33:05 <kpreid> (except for the other end screwing up in what it sends)
18:33:19 <kpreid> (which is the case that I'd like to go pfft promptly)
18:33:30 <sbp> heh
18:33:45 <sbp> Arnia's active web needs a RETRACT/OHSHITIFUCKEDUP verb
18:33:59 <sbp> I suppose it's subsumed into TELL. TELL AgentX I fucked up sry
18:34:08 <xover> .wik AgentX
18:34:12 <phenny> "The Agent Extensibility Protocol or AgentX is a computer networking protocol used as a standardized framework for extensible Simple Network Management Protocol agents and the procedure by which those agents process SNMP protocol messages." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgentX
18:34:18 <xover> :-)
18:34:19 <sbp> I was going to say Agent 99
18:35:40 * kpreid gets himself mentally tangled up in stream polarities
18:35:49 * xover muddles off bedwards…
18:35:55 <xover> `night all
18:36:59 <sbp> 'night xover!
18:37:08 <sbp> (is it me, or is xover going to bed earlier and earlier each night?)
18:38:02 <nsh> .wik Cuntz
18:38:06 <phenny> "A Cuntz algebra is a separable, simple purely infinite C*-algebra." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuntz_algebra
18:39:55 * clsn and Broca have to get our blazonry->SVG converter ready for consumption, or at least put a sample page on the web, so sbp can link to it from his Organisation essay...
18:41:09 <bancus> clsn: that would be awesome
18:46:05 <nsh> .wik Kunstwissenschaft
18:46:09 <phenny> "In aesthetics, the sublime (from the Latin sublimis ([looking up from] under the lintel, high, lofty, elevated, exalted)) is the quality of greatness or vast magnitude, whether physical, moral, intellectual, metaphysical or artistic." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(philosophy)
18:49:17 <sbp> bancus: you were working on one too, weren't you? how did that go?
18:49:40 <sbp> phenny: "kunstwissenschaft"?
18:49:44 <phenny> sbp: "art science" (de)
18:49:48 <bancus> I was not.
18:50:00 <bancus> i was using clsn's
18:50:01 <sbp> oh, hmm. were you working on something like it?
18:50:03 <sbp> ah!
18:50:09 <nsh> .gc moonscape
18:50:12 <phenny> moonscape: 227,000
18:50:22 <nsh> .gs * moonscape
18:50:26 <phenny> * moonscape: intersperse (3), fractal (3), saturnian (2), indiscutible (2), a (2), yaddoquot quotyaddo, vhpjpg, turned, the, tervetuloa kennel, southern, shuhei hasados, of, nearest dealer, ken
18:50:40 <sbp> nearest dealer?
18:50:49 <sbp> Ken Moonscape. cool name
18:50:55 <nsh> .gs nearest dealer *
18:50:59 <phenny> nearest dealer *: call (3), stockist (2), locator (2), location (2), simply, selling, scubaboard, request, proabably, or mail, or alternatively, or, optional, ofthe, name, mi, locators, locally inst
18:51:15 <nsh> .ety landscape
18:51:18 <phenny> "1603, 'painting representing natural scenery,' from Du. landschap, from M.Du. landscap 'region,' from land 'land' + -scap '-ship.' Originally introduced as a painters' term." - http://etymonline.com/?term=landscape
18:51:37 * nsh muses, eats dinner
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19:02:30 *** bear is now known as bear_afk
19:06:40 <nsh> .gs intersperse *
19:06:44 <phenny> intersperse *: cto (6), with verdure (3), transpose (2), this aggressive (2), the unfolding (2), synonyms (2), savage raid (2), pariah (2), mapaccuml mapaccumr (2), interlard (2), extenuating (2)
19:07:43 *** est_ (n=est@c-24-6-178-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
19:17:45 <nsh> qotd "Policy as an activity category is incapable of significantly affecting the largely self-determined process of technology-driven systemic transformation."
19:20:55 <sbp> chuckle
19:21:00 <sbp> nsh: did you see this? http://inamidst.com/topic/organisation
19:25:17 <nsh> I did now
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19:25:42 <nsh> and smile, a-wryly smile
19:26:47 <sbp> eeêxcellent
19:26:59 <sbp> there was some chitter-chat in here about it too
19:29:33 <nsh> tonight i am too full of food
19:30:43 <nsh> what's it called when birds eat food then regurgitate it for hatchlings?
19:31:39 <sbp> regurgitation. I don't know any more technical term
19:31:44 <sbp> or "feeding"
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19:33:16 * nsh nods a frowny nod
19:33:18 <deltab> nsh: icky
19:34:25 *** est (n=est@c-24-6-178-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
19:35:02 <nsh> .ety icky
19:35:05 <phenny> "1935, Amer.Eng., probably from icky-boo (c.1920) 'sickly, nauseated,' probably baby talk elaboration of sick." - http://etymonline.com/?term=icky
19:35:14 <nsh> .ety sick
19:35:18 <phenny> "'set upon' (sick him!), 1845, dialectal variant of seek." - http://etymonline.com/?term=sick
19:37:08 * sbp has read http://cr.yp.to/conferences/iadams.html
19:38:56 <sbp> for someone with such an æsthetic eye, he certainly has some weirdisms
19:39:01 <sbp> like ``this''
19:40:21 <nsh> some people have too much time on their hands
19:41:05 *** dmiles_afk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:41:09 <sbp> “Fortunately, the POSIX rules are so outrageously dumb---for example, they require that 2100 be a leap year, contradicting the Gregorian calendar---that no self-respecting engineer would obey them.” — http://cr.yp.to/proto/utctai.html
19:41:15 <sbp> nsh: what people?
19:41:51 <nsh> some :-)
19:42:20 <deltab> sbp: in TeX, ` means ‘
19:42:53 <sbp> but HTML isn't TeX!
19:42:56 <deltab> and some fonts render it the same way
19:43:08 <sbp> yeah. that's the explanation I always heard for the old habit
19:43:12 <sbp> didn't know about TeX
19:43:36 <sbp> while (buf[i] != ' ') if (++i == len) return 0;
19:43:36 <sbp> while (buf[i] == ' ') if (++i == len) return 0;
19:43:36 <sbp> while (buf[i] != ' ') if (++i == len) return 0;
19:43:36 <sbp> while (buf[i] == ' ') if (++i == len) return 0;
19:43:36 <sbp> j = i;
19:43:36 <sbp> while (buf[j] != '-') if (++j == len) return 0;
19:43:38 <sbp> - http://cr.yp.to/ftpparse/ftpparse.c
19:44:44 <sbp> phenny: tell kpreid about http://cr.yp.to/proto/design.html (if, as seems rather unlikely but possible, you didn't already get to netstrings via that route)
19:44:47 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when kpreid is around.
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19:47:11 <kpreid> sbp: I did not.
19:47:14 <phenny> kpreid: 21:16Z <sbp> tell kpreid about http://cr.yp.to/proto/design.html (if, as seems rather unlikely but possible, you didn't already get to netstrings via that route)
19:47:18 <kpreid> Also, interesting advice.
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19:51:05 <nsh> .gc "complete devil's staircase'
19:51:08 <phenny> "complete devil's staircase': 623
19:51:09 <nsh> .gc "complete devil's staircase"
19:51:12 <phenny> "complete devil's staircase": 693
19:52:27 <deltab> .gc "incomplete devil's staircase"
19:52:29 <phenny> "incomplete devil's staircase": 153
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19:56:19 <nsh> .wik Rabbit constant
19:56:24 <phenny> "Pythagorean Extension possibly Pythagorean extension (wikisearch; web; books)" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Missing_science_topics/Maths23
19:57:04 <nsh> .wik Rabbit Cnstant
19:57:08 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Rabbit Cnstant".
19:57:09 <nsh> .wik Rabbit Constant
19:57:14 <phenny> "Pythagorean Extension possibly Pythagorean extension (wikisearch; web; books)" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Missing_science_topics/Maths23
19:58:40 <nsh> .gc "Minutes from an infinite paradise"
19:58:43 *** cre8radix is now known as cre8radix|off
19:58:46 <phenny> "Minutes from an infinite paradise": 995
19:59:10 <sbp> lisppaste2: url?
19:59:11 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
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19:59:40 <nsh> ScienceDirect can fuck right off.
20:00:20 <deltab> like they say, "Location, location, location"
20:00:29 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "More Useful Directory Indexes (An Email to Professor Bernstein)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/54390
20:01:53 <sbp> yeah. "Identity, identity, identity!" has more of an icky ring to it
20:02:16 <deltab> "Located just minutes from an infinite paradise"
20:02:25 <d8uv> COMING SOON:
20:02:29 <d8uv> ffffffff.net
20:02:32 <d8uv> That is all
20:02:44 <sbp> you didn't go for shupfoo.com?
20:02:50 <d8uv> Nope
20:03:04 <sbp> it wasn't chaotic enough for you?
20:03:11 <d8uv> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/officelive/default.aspx
20:03:17 <sbp> you could've got an IDN, you know
20:03:18 <d8uv> Get shupfoo yourself
20:03:21 <sbp> like ô‸̦Ô̊.com
20:03:28 <sbp> NO YOU
20:03:41 <d8uv> ffffffff.net is super chaotic
20:03:52 <sbp> so wait, anybody can do this?
20:04:02 <d8uv> Think so, yeah
20:04:03 <radii> OMG the mailing list flamage is still going.
20:04:03 <sbp> presumably you need Office though?
20:04:08 <d8uv> Nope
20:04:09 <sbp> which mailing list?
20:04:12 <sbp> awesome
20:04:12 <radii> hmm, not this mailing list though.
20:04:18 <radii> wrong window. Hah!
20:04:27 <sbp> we aren't even a mailing list!
20:04:31 <sbp> we have a mailing list, though...
20:04:52 * radii fails to operate heavy equipment^W^Wirc client
20:04:59 <d8uv> Note you do need IE windows though
20:05:25 <sbp> yeah, just noticed that
20:05:31 <sbp> alright, I'll pencil it in
20:05:50 <d8uv> Actually ô‸̦Ô̊.com
20:05:56 <d8uv> would be fucking awesome
20:06:04 <sbp> arse, I left a "be" out of my message to djb
20:06:07 <sbp> how embarrassing
20:06:23 <sbp> I wanted to be really terse. but not too terse!
20:06:42 <d8uv> Tersity wins.
20:07:09 <d8uv> Also on the Flog http://d8uv.org/flog/2008-01#t1200604081
20:07:51 <sbp> .head http://data.furaffinity.net/art/speakswithdevils2113/1200545215.speakswithdevils2113_furay3color.png
20:07:54 <phenny> Status: 200 (for more, try ".head uri header")
20:07:59 <sbp> d8uv: it is ... what?!
20:08:01 <sbp> I got a 403
20:08:04 <d8uv> I had something else in mind that, if done, you could sell it to google for millions
20:08:08 <sbp> 403 Forbidden You Do Not Yiff Enough
20:08:30 <sbp> fuckin' thing, I still get 403
20:08:33 <sbp> .head http://data.furaffinity.net/art/speakswithdevils2113/1200545215.speakswithdevils2113_furay3color.png
20:08:37 <phenny> Status: 200 (for more, try ".head uri header")
20:08:40 <sbp> YUO
20:08:52 <sbp> d8uv: why does this furry site hate me?
20:08:58 <d8uv> http://g.photos.cx/1200545215.speakswithdevils2113_furay3color-9f7.png
20:09:02 <sbp> thx
20:09:50 <sbp> hmm, that does deserve much comment
20:10:11 <sbp> “Three Ideas” was hilarious by the way
20:10:38 <d8uv> also: http://photos.cx/sidebar-guide/
20:12:11 <sbp> hmm. what it is meant to do?
20:12:22 <sbp> all it says to me is “Loading Photos...”
20:12:41 <sbp> also I gots to run
20:12:44 <sbp> be around more!
20:12:46 <sbp> 'night!
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20:16:05 *** glen_quagmire (n=glen_qua@pool-71-249-56-81.nycmny.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
20:16:23 * nsh hrmms
20:17:18 <glen_quagmire> .playmp3 http://iiiiiiii.com
20:17:53 * nsh gives glen_quagmire a funny look
20:28:20 *** cr`x (n=crux@user-12lcqh4.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #swhack
20:28:50 <nsh> .ety lynchpin
20:28:54 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "lynchpin". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=lynchpin
20:29:19 <clsn> .ety linchpin
20:29:20 <nsh> .ety linchpin
20:29:22 <phenny> "1370s, from M.E. lins 'axletree' (from O.E. lynis, from P.Gmc. *luniso) + pin." - http://etymonline.com/?term=linchpin
20:29:23 <phenny> "1370s, from M.E. lins 'axletree' (from O.E. lynis, from P.Gmc. *luniso) + pin." - http://etymonline.com/?term=linchpin
20:29:31 <clsn> It isn't the same as lynch/hang
20:29:34 <clsn> .ety lynch
20:29:37 <phenny> "1835, from earlier Lynch law (1811), likely named after William Lynch (1742-1820) of Pittsylvania, Va., who c.1780 led a vigilance committee to keep order there during the Revolution." - http://etymonline.com/?term=lynch
20:29:44 <nsh> aye, so it seems
20:29:45 <clsn> Interesting. Not even related.
20:29:55 <clsn> I would have thought they were at least related.
20:29:58 <cr`x> lynis, sounds like penis!
20:33:17 <glen_quagmire> Bootstrapping is a term used in computer science to describe the techniques involved in writing a compiler (or assembler) in the target programming language which it is intended to compile. -- I don't get it.. like at all. example?
20:33:41 <bancus> For some reason, at first glance I thought that said "boobstrapping".
20:35:43 <nsh> glen_quagmire, you can write a C compiler in C and compile it with another compiler...
20:36:04 <nsh> you can then compile modifications of your compiler using older versions of itself
20:36:33 <nsh> the analogy is to "pulling oneself up by one's boot-straps"
20:36:39 <glen_quagmire> let's say I made this new language C. it's in my brain. i want to implement it. do it in assembly?
20:38:09 <glen_quagmire> that sounds like NP-Complete. all NP-C reduced to 3-SAT. all languages transformed to assembly
20:39:12 *** cori[s] has quit ("Death before decaf")
20:39:17 <glen_quagmire> 1. write C compiler in assembly. it spits out assembly code. 2. write C compiler in C. you can compile it using the C compiler written in step 1.
20:41:21 <perigrin> glen_quagmire, exactly
20:41:35 <perigrin> like NQP and Perl 6 using Parrot
20:41:54 <perigrin> NQP is (in theory) the smallest subset of Perl 6 required to write the rest of Perl 6
20:41:57 <bancus> In a Gentoo stage 1 (or maybe 2) install, you download a compiler to compile your compiler.
20:42:08 <bancus> that first compiler is your bootstrap compiler
20:42:15 <perigrin> actually you do that in all three stages at some point or another
20:42:25 <bancus> Hm, been a while.
20:42:28 <glen_quagmire> i heard in gentoo, you have to compile a few more times to really be optimized
20:42:34 <deltab> or invent a simpler C, implement that in assembler, and write the full C compiler in simple C
20:42:38 <perigrin> glen_quagmire, you compile 3 times
20:43:02 <perigrin> bancus, eventually even with a stage 3 install you upgrade GCC
20:43:03 <glen_quagmire> compile gcc using bootstrap compiler with -O3 and other mad flags. compile gcc again with the output of previous compilation. and again.
20:43:06 <perigrin> just make take a few months :)
20:43:11 <perigrin> er s/make/might/
20:43:24 <perigrin> glen_quagmire, exactly
20:43:43 <bancus> I wonder if you can use the SPEs on the Cell to compile.
20:43:51 <bancus> I bet that would make gentoo installation livable.
20:43:56 <perigrin> SPEs?
20:44:07 <bancus> The Sub-CPUs.
20:44:10 <perigrin> actually gentoo is livable so long as you have screen, ulimit and nice
20:44:12 <bancus> .wik Cell processor
20:44:15 <deltab> Synergistic Processing Engines, or some such
20:44:15 <phenny> "Cell is a microprocessor architecture jointly developed by Sony Computer Entertainment, Toshiba, and IBM, an alliance known as 'STI'." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_processor
20:44:35 <bancus> Synergistic Processing Elements, or such
20:44:47 <bancus> I think they only do FP though.
20:45:37 <deltab> "The SPE contains 128-bit registers only. These can be used for scalar data types ranging from 8-bits to 128-bits in size or for SIMD computations on a variety of integer and floating point formats."
20:45:59 <bancus> Ah.
20:46:15 <bancus> So it's like multi-core MMX.
20:46:23 <nsh> .ety suffer
20:46:26 <phenny> "c.1225, 'to undergo, endure' (pain, death, punishment, judgment, grief), from Anglo-Fr. suffrir, from O.Fr. sufrir, from V.L. *sufferire, variant of L. sufferre 'to bear, undergo, endure, carry or put under,' from sub 'up, under' + ferre 'to carry' (see infer)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=suffer
20:46:27 <nsh> .ety sufferage
20:46:31 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "sufferage". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=sufferage
20:46:46 <nsh> .ety suffrage
20:46:49 <phenny> "c.1380, 'prayers or pleas on behalf of another,' from O.Fr. suffrage (13c.), from M.L. suffragium, from L. suffragium 'support, vote, right of voting,' from suffragari 'lend support, vote for someone,' from sub 'under' + fragor 'crash, din, shouts (as of approval),' [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=suffrage
20:47:38 <perigrin> nsh, fear leads to anger anger leads to hate hate leads to suffering
20:48:03 * nsh wonders where marshmallows lead
20:48:10 <bancus> .calc 4 * 3,200,000,000 * 8
20:48:13 <perigrin> to cocoa
20:48:13 <phenny> 4 * 3 200 000 000 * 8 = 102 400 000 000
20:48:27 <bancus> The SPUs do 102 gigaflops
20:48:30 <bancus> (all together)
20:50:34 <bancus> At least the one in the PS3.
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21:08:35 *** Arnia (n=jgeldart@client-82-12-224-168.brnt.adsl.virgin.net) has joined #swhack
21:09:18 <Arnia> GREET
21:09:46 <nsh> mm
21:09:52 <nsh> how fare ye?
21:10:12 <Arnia> TELL Have been better
21:10:34 <perigrin> ASK Trying out the new syntax?
21:11:01 <Arnia> TELL Indeed
21:11:13 <Arnia> COMMAND Could you let me know if you notice anything else?
21:11:37 <perigrin> PROMISE if you pay me £749 by this evening
21:11:45 * perigrin inlined that line from the spec
21:11:59 <nsh> QUERY what are you trying to do now, Arnia? and why does it give me a bad impression?
21:12:10 <Arnia> There is no QUERY! Heathen!
21:12:27 <Arnia> nsh: http://www.dur.ac.uk/j.r.c.geldart/essays/there_again/towards_the_active_web.html
21:13:40 *** thelsdj_ (n=thelsdj@c-67-174-219-74.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
21:14:16 <nsh> oh
21:14:28 *** thelsdj has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:14:34 <nsh> so
21:15:17 <nsh> i get the image of Doc' Brown's stream-powered time travelling locomotive
21:15:31 <Arnia> ...
21:19:55 <nsh> .gc "steamy assertions"
21:19:58 <phenny> "steamy assertions": 0
21:20:08 <nsh> .gc steam assertion
21:20:11 <phenny> steam assertion: 601,000
21:20:43 <Arnia> perigrin: I'm just... meh after this evening
21:20:52 <Arnia> Dunno exactly why it has bothered me so much
21:21:20 * perigrin nods
21:21:50 * perigrin is generally meh these days ... overly stressed with a summer full of stressy stress ... and a frothy cup of stress to wash that down with
21:22:01 <Arnia> woo
21:22:11 * Arnia hands perigrin a boinging seagull
21:22:21 *** glen_quagmire has quit ("leaving")
21:22:23 * nsh frowns
21:22:36 * perigrin applies some subtition operators and gets a singing bagel
21:22:52 <nsh> what does it mean for URIs to be atomic or not?
21:23:04 <perigrin> they glow at night
21:23:58 * nsh smiles weakly, then a little more strongly
21:23:59 <Arnia> nsh: can you treat a URI as a compound term with structure which is accessible to the semantics
21:24:21 * nsh frowns
21:24:44 <Arnia> nsh: so, does <http://www.example.com/about/> act as a name semantically or does the URI itself say something about its parts
21:24:51 <nsh> why frame such a question in the first place?
21:25:10 <nsh> surely it would be better to allow the evolution of the system to determine the context-dependent answer to such a question dynamically
21:25:14 <Arnia> Because it makes a difference in many logics
21:25:23 <nsh> rather than try to put in all the answers explicitely in the design process
21:25:24 <nsh> :-/
21:25:35 <Arnia> Some logics go very awry if names become compounds
21:26:01 <Arnia> (Description logics being one of the best known examples of this)
21:26:25 <Arnia> You basically have to solve the CIFP issue along with role-chain reasoning
21:26:31 <nsh> is it unthinkable that the logic will be an emergent property of interactions within a minimally-complex-for-self-organisation system?
21:27:02 * Arnia notes that the axioms of the minimally-complex-for-self-organisation system would form a logic
21:27:17 <Arnia> Most logics are damned simple... as simple as possible in fact
21:27:38 <Arnia> The theorems which arise are merely the emergence of hidden properties locked away in the axioms
21:27:39 * nsh has no truck with axioms
21:27:51 <Arnia> Everything has axioms
21:27:57 <nsh> pft
21:28:03 <Arnia> Even if they're inscrutable, they're there.
21:28:32 <nsh> Everything with simple-identity has axioms, perhaps...
21:28:38 <deltab> nsh: how do the wheels turn, then?
21:28:51 <Arnia> No... if you have identity, and process you have axioms
21:28:56 <Arnia> You also have change and time
21:29:05 <Arnia> You pick two out of those four and you get the other two for free
21:29:19 <Arnia> (or rather, your choice of the other two is forced)
21:30:02 <Arnia> The 'identity' doesn't have to be simple-identity, but it always induces axioms
21:30:34 * nsh thinks
21:31:53 <Arnia> Ok, so think of some metric notion of identity; a measure of distance (like found in many self-organised systems). By setting that notion of identity, you've brought in all the axioms of a metric space
21:32:40 <Arnia> You then have to include how the identity is transformed or preserved under your reasoning process... which brings in all the axioms of whatever theory you use to do that
21:33:08 <Arnia> The only way to avoid bringing in any axioms is to avoid having any models of identity, process, time or change whatsoever
21:33:15 * nsh smiles
21:33:25 <Arnia> But then, you basically don't have anything about which you may speak
21:33:29 <nsh> that would be the recieved wisdom, yes.
21:33:35 * Arnia goes all Wittgensteinist
21:34:48 <Arnia> nsh: do you have an alternative?
21:35:29 <Arnia> (note, 'axioms' just means the basic rules which structure the domain and invoking the concepts so that we can talk about them. That's all axioms are...)
21:35:42 <nsh> I feign no hypotheses :-)
21:35:53 <nsh> I have only systematic doubt and intuition
21:36:42 <Arnia> Well, it is difficult to respond to that. Why are you opposed to axioms so totally?
21:37:03 *** libby (n=libby@77-101-209-30.cable.ubr04.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
21:37:58 <nsh> Because I fear we're trying to power a flux-capacitor with steam
21:38:39 <Arnia> I don't feel the issue is axiomatisation, it is treating theorems as axioms
21:39:31 <nsh> the issue, i would argue, is maintaining that there can be an objective context-independent disctinction between the two
21:39:39 <nsh> *distinction
21:39:48 <twe> Take a diagram in omnigraffle, copied it, went to sandvox and pressed command-v and it has enough of this is in that context.
21:39:55 <Arnia> I cannot see any way to avoid having axioms... indeed, even by stating 'such and such exists' when setting up your system you define axioms. What's important is that the axioms are separated from the domain. That is, they merely define it not become part of it.
21:40:15 * nsh nods
21:40:28 <nsh> as long as we are thinking dualistically, there will always be identities and thus axioms
21:40:47 <Arnia> Oh, even if you don't think dualistically there will be identities
21:40:59 <Arnia> They're just not universal... which is my main point
21:41:01 <nsh> but they will not be simple (ie self-same) identities
21:41:26 <Arnia> Well, the only rule that identities seem to have to follow is that of a metric
21:41:38 <nsh> to borrow a phrase, there will be differing degrees of identity-transparancy under different orders of logical-value
21:41:52 <Arnia> The choice of the underlying space determines a lot about the model of identity that arises
21:42:38 <Arnia> Hm... transparency from which view-point? From a particular reasoner? From a particular community? From the universe at large?
21:44:53 <nsh> if identity is only definable in terms of relations between identities so-defined, then the transparancy is from every view-point
21:45:05 <twe> Relations can be defined as an in mem rep, it's still extremely costly and prolly doesn't make sense.
21:45:17 <nsh> right on, twe
21:45:23 <twe> Twe the twe twe.
21:47:04 <nsh> in terms of the canonical metaphor, there may an infinite number of pearls in Indra's net, but there are transfinite-orders-of-infinitely-more reflections of reflections of reflections ... of pearls in each pearl
21:47:53 <nsh> which is not something that renders itself to any recursive-defintion by successively [more or less]-simple forms of identity
21:49:31 <nsh> and thus equally unamenable to recursive theorem-generation from axioms, defined in terms of simple-identity relations between simple-identity components
21:49:38 <twe> Relations can be found in between.
21:49:56 * Arnia scratches his head
21:50:06 <Arnia> I'm still not clear on what you mean by 'transparent' then
21:50:22 * nsh isn't sure yet either
21:50:46 <Arnia> Do you mean that the reasoner can access the structure of the identity? Or do you mean referential transparency? Or do you mean objectivism, in that all agents can see all identities?
21:50:59 * Arnia would avoid 'transparent' in this situation; too overloaded a term
21:51:03 * nsh smiles
21:51:43 <nsh> transparent implies no loss of information, but does not preclude a modification, in terms of a focussing or defocussing of the information not lost
21:52:37 <Arnia> So... information conserving then?
21:52:50 <nsh> right
21:52:56 <Arnia> Although that's a property of the reasoning process not the identity
21:53:13 <nsh> as "collapse" of an assertion into one or the other of simple truth values is empahtically not an information-preserving action
21:53:34 <Arnia> I believe (although I haven't proved) that information conservation is incompatible with a realistic model of time
21:53:40 * nsh smiles
21:53:42 <Arnia> Basically cos of entropy
21:53:53 <Arnia> But I'm not going to go all Shannon on you
21:54:08 <Arnia> and I'm too tired to consider this too deeply atm :)
21:54:33 <nsh> and I believe (although I cannot prove) that entropy is the result of a strains on a incorrect (paradigmatically unviable) model of space-time interactions
21:54:47 <nsh> which is, to be polite, vestigial at best
21:55:21 <nsh> and I'm too ignorant to discuss it :-)
21:56:12 <Arnia> hm... I'd say entropy is more a result of the information loss inherent in a reasoning step
21:56:39 <Arnia> Chicken and egg here... you can say that if you have one then you have the other but it is difficult if not impossible to say which is first
21:56:46 <Arnia> If that statement is even meaningful
21:56:58 <Arnia> (given we're necessarily extra-temporal whilst making it)
21:57:31 <kpreid> I'd like some extra time myself
21:57:35 * nsh smiles
21:58:53 * Arnia sends kpreid Ianto's stopwatch
22:00:11 * nsh notes in passing that the cantor set (cantor dust) has the same order of points as the continuum from which it is formed-by-cuts
22:01:02 <Arnia> indeed
22:01:05 <nsh> which is an example of whole-part identity-transparency
22:01:11 <Arnia> And other weirdness of the axiom of choice
22:01:25 <Arnia> (I think that comes from the axiom of choice... *shrugs*)
22:01:42 <Arnia> I'm not a big fan of the axiom of choice, given that it requires a boolean, classical set theory
22:03:54 * nsh smiles
22:06:47 <kpreid> Axiom of Waffling
22:08:58 <nsh> mm
22:09:22 <nsh> I have eaten like a trooper over the last 28 hours
22:10:22 * Arnia stops waffling
22:13:34 * nsh sneezes
22:15:31 <perigrin> nsh, did you take off the white uniform or just the helmet?
22:15:49 * perigrin isn't sure how you can eat through the face plate in that helmet anyway
22:16:09 * nsh has tooobs
22:16:28 <Arnia> ew
22:16:40 <Arnia> twe, are you tubed up?
22:16:48 <twe> Arnia: You are the important problems are you up to?
22:17:33 <Arnia> I am an important problem indeed... well, maybe not important but definitely a problem. Between you and me, I think I need to go back to the requirements analysis phase to make a better me.
22:17:37 * nsh wonders if Arnia would be able to make better use than he of, http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-4812(198506)50%3A2%3C412%3AOTROTB%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23
22:17:43 <twe> Phase i can definitely see my one of those and mess people up.
22:18:29 <nsh> you don't mess people up any more than they already were, bertweed
22:18:37 <twe> Maybe it would mess up the people here.
22:20:04 <nsh> Monty, show twe the people here are already maximally messed-up
22:20:04 <Arnia> ooh, nice
22:20:05 <Monty> no pix plz
22:20:13 <nsh> lawl
22:20:24 <twe> So i suspect that god is merely a way he frames his authority on that design. I have found porting something to show that you are twe.
22:21:14 <Arnia> I'm not twe
22:21:24 <twe> Not that i /disliked/ it, it's just that i'm not twe.
22:21:36 * Arnia feels a paradoxicon brewing
22:21:41 * Arnia gets out the way
22:21:54 * nsh washes a cup for some paradoxicon tea
22:22:04 <nsh> uTm
22:22:39 *** therethinker (n=zach@c-24-218-157-101.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
22:23:29 * Arnia tries to figure out who to try and sell the Active Web on next
22:24:11 <Arnia> s/on/to
22:27:13 * nsh shrugs off the newbs
22:27:58 * therethinker hopes he isn't the next targetr
22:28:09 <therethinker> s/r/
22:28:18 <Arnia> ASK why?
22:29:08 <nsh> arxiv is being lame
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22:29:34 <perigrin> TELL dinner time
22:29:42 <perigrin> PROMISE to return later
22:30:26 <Arnia> COMMAND have fun
22:30:55 <therethinker> ASK why are we talking like this
22:31:33 <therethinker> SELF-DISCIPLINE I should beat myself for forgetting a ?
22:32:40 <Arnia> TELL because it is the use of the five verbs I've proposed in my essay on the idea of the Active Web
22:32:53 <Arnia> (the fifth is GREET)
22:33:11 <therethinker> ASK so... TELL, PROMISE, COMMAND, ASK, GREET
22:33:26 <therethinker> TELL and no SELF-DISCIPLINE!?
22:33:32 <therethinker> ASK Why these 5?
22:33:42 * nsh makes all verbs redundant by subsuming them into FAIL
22:34:49 <Arnia> TELL because they're what I consider to be a minimal set to capture illocutionary behaviour in a loose coalition of agents
22:35:05 <Arnia> TELL for more information, read the damn essay ;)
22:35:15 <therethinker> ASK Essay plzkthnxbye
22:35:24 <perigrin> ASK isn't that a COMMAND ?
22:35:30 <Arnia> TELL the essay is at http://www.dur.ac.uk/j.r.c.geldart/essays/there_again/towards_the_active_web.html
22:36:09 <therethinker> TELL "Can I have" was implied
22:36:16 <therethinker> TELL Not "Give me"
22:36:24 <nsh> shh
22:36:26 <nsh> http://arxiv.org/pdf/0707.3170
22:37:44 <Arnia> bah... yet another thing to read
22:38:23 <therethinker> Arnia: what's the difference between ASK & COMMAND?
22:38:31 <twe> I could also ask on the difference.
22:38:32 <therethinker> There are obvious cases, but there is a big grey area
22:38:38 <therethinker> Rigght...
22:39:01 *** therethinker is now known as theRethinker
22:39:50 <Arnia> theRethinker: think of it as a cue for the analysis of the behaviour of the system
22:40:08 <theRethinker> ASK Essay plzkthnxbye -- should that have been COMMAND?
22:40:34 <nsh> .ety witting
22:40:35 <Arnia> theRethinker: it is also intended to act as a cue for different sorts of negotiation. TELL and ASK are for negotiation over understanding. COMMAND and PROMISE are for negotiation over goals
22:40:37 <phenny> "'aware,' c.1340 (wittingly), from wit (v.)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=witting
22:40:41 <nsh> .ety wit
22:40:45 <phenny> "'mental capacity,' O.E. wit, more commonly gewit, from P.Gmc. *witjan (cf. O.S. wit, O.N. vit, Dan. vid, Swed. vett, O.Fris. wit, O.H.G. wizzi 'knowledge, understanding, intelligence, mind,' Ger. Witz 'wit, witticism, joke,' Goth. unwiti 'ignorance'), from PIE [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=wit
22:41:20 <theRethinker> so... COMMAND Essay implies that the essay is "hard" to get, requires work>
22:42:19 <Arnia> 'COMMAND Essay' more implies that the retrieval of the essay has side-effects
22:42:42 <nsh> .wik nonseperable space
22:42:42 <theRethinker> Ahh
22:42:46 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "nonseperable space".
22:43:01 <nsh> .wik nonseprrable space
22:43:04 <nsh> .wik nonseparable space
22:43:05 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "nonseprrable space".
22:43:09 <phenny> "In mathematics, Tsirelson space T is an example of a reflexive Banach space in which neither an l| p| space nor a c0 space can be embedded." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsirelson_space
22:43:39 <Arnia> theRethinker: since the strategies we have available for each atm are different, it makes sense to indicate which set of strategies should be used. It also means that the user agents don't have to be able to extract force dynamic relations from arbitrary information
22:43:59 <Arnia> (which is a hard problem, doable but not something someone writing a simple agent should have to bother with)
22:44:35 <nsh> .ety separable
22:44:38 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "separable". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=separable
22:44:42 <nsh> .ety separate
22:44:45 <phenny> "1393 (implied in separable), from L. separatus, pp. of separare 'to pull apart,' from se- 'apart' (see secret) + parare 'make ready, prepare' (see pare)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=separate
22:44:47 <Arnia> The side-effect issue is an important one though... think of ASK and TELL as being stereotypically webby, whereas COMMAND and PROMISE allow one to refer to the real world
22:45:11 <nsh> .ety pare
22:45:14 <phenny> "'to trim by cutting close,' c.1320, from O.Fr. parer 'arrange, prepare, trim,' from L. parare 'make ready,' related to parere 'produce, bring forth, give birth to,' from PIE base *per- 'to bring forward, bring forth' (cf. Lith. pariu 'to brood,' Gk. poris 'calf, bull,' [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=pare
22:45:15 <Arnia> I had to be very careful writing that essay not to bring up the whole IR/NIR debate
22:45:23 <theRethinker> IR/NIR?
22:45:34 <theRethinker> ASK *
22:45:35 <Arnia> information resources and non-information resources
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22:45:56 <theRethinker> ah
22:45:56 <Arnia> Which basically comes down to, how do we glue the real world and the web together?
22:46:00 <theRethinker> Yeah
22:46:17 <Arnia> My choice has been to separate the verbs
22:46:36 <Arnia> so we distinguish talking about doing something from doing something
22:46:47 <Arnia> Natural languages tend to do the same
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22:47:06 <theRethinker> hmm
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22:47:28 <theRethinker> Are PUT and DELETE ever used anymore?
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22:47:35 <Arnia> Yeah
22:47:38 <theRethinker> Bad grammar do I have
22:48:11 <Arnia> The reason I've thrown out the HTTP verbs is that there is no clean mapping of the concepts I've discussed onto them
22:48:54 <Arnia> Sure, GET is sort of like ASK, only not exactly. For a start, GET works on paths (it is very URL-oriented) whereas I'm thinking something more akin to prolog
22:49:19 <Arnia> so: ASK temperature(durham, T)
22:49:34 <theRethinker> Oh, yeah, I know GET & POST are still used
22:49:40 <Arnia> Also, GET is all about the documents
22:49:43 <theRethinker> but I haven't seen/used PUT/DELETE
22:49:52 <Arnia> You issue a GET and you get the document back inline
22:50:11 <theRethinker> Yeah
22:50:39 <Arnia> If you issue an ASK, you may get a TELL back again later... the protocol doesn't assume a server handing down information from on high
22:51:00 <Arnia> You could inline it in a single connection... but you don't have to
22:51:35 <Arnia> PUT and DELETE are used by things like CouchDB
22:51:42 <theRethinker> Ah
22:51:48 <Arnia> but they're nothing at all like COMMAND and PROMISE :)
22:51:51 <theRethinker> But then... its not really HTTP, is it?
22:51:58 <Arnia> No, it isn't
22:52:02 <theRethinker> Its closer to SQL... right?
22:52:06 <Arnia> No
22:52:23 <Arnia> It is not far off OAA actually
22:52:31 <Arnia> .g Open Agent Architecture
22:52:47 <phenny> Arnia: http://www.ai.sri.com/oaa/
22:52:47 <Arnia> (which was, admittedly, a major inspiration)
22:54:23 <Arnia> What I've done is try and get similar abilities for decentralisation and ad-hoc coalitions that OAA does but to roll in important distinctions learnt from the Web (the need to glue the information system and the real world together, uncertainty and disagreement, etc.) and from things like capability security
22:55:05 <Arnia> I'm doing some write up on Ergative too (at long last) which will explain some of the context for what I'm thinking about
22:57:08 <Arnia> Basically, it is breaking down the walls between vertically integrated 'applications' and allowing the system to be tolerant of failure and uncertainty both at the development level (how do I build X functionality) and at the run-time level
22:57:13 * Arnia should sleep
22:57:15 <twe> And i only have one level.
22:57:27 <nsh> indeed, tweedle
22:57:33 <twe> It is indeed, monty. Mwahahahahahaha.
22:57:38 <nsh> hehe
22:57:39 <kpreid> ...
22:57:39 <Monty> those halcyon days into formal languages tend not written it spits out by, I may need quite similar, apart from any time.
22:58:03 <nsh> oh dear, it's getting that way again
22:58:32 * nsh turns down the sychronostat
22:58:40 <nsh> .gc synchronostat
22:58:44 <phenny> synchronostat: 0
22:58:47 <nsh> mine.
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23:00:54 <nsh> [[[
23:00:57 <nsh> Personally, I am not surprised to find the Axiom of Choice coming into play in a subject that is so inherently complicated as unmeasurable sets. I am much more surprised to find AC coming into play in this simpler and more concrete example: I want to classify all subsets of {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, . . .} as "small" or not "small," defining the word "small" in such a way that
23:00:57 <nsh> 1. any set with zero or one members is "small";
23:00:57 <nsh> 2. any union of two "small" sets is "small"; and
23:00:58 <nsh> 3. a set is"small" if and only if its complement isn�t "small."
23:01:00 <nsh> Now, without much difficulty I can give examples satisfying any two of those three rules:
23:01:02 <nsh> * Define "small" to mean "finite." This satisfies rules a and b. But it does not satisfy rule c, since the even numbers and the odd numbers are complements of each other, and neither of those sets is finite.
23:01:05 <nsh> * Say that a set is "small" if the number 1 is not a member of that set. This definition satisfies rules b and c, but it classifies the set {1} as "not small," thus failing rule a.
23:01:08 <nsh> * Say that a set is "small" if it contains at most one of the three numbers 1, 2, 3. That satisfies rules a and c. But it classifies the sets {1} and {2} as small and the set {1,2} as not small, thus failing rule b.
23:01:11 <nsh> Does there exist a classification scheme satisfying all three rules? It turns out that such a classification scheme exists, but an example of such a classification scheme does not exist (which makes it a bit hard to visualize!). And by that I do not mean just that we haven't found an example yet. I mean that the proofs of existence are inherently nonconstructive -- i.e., they cannot be replaced by constructive proofs -- so no examples can ever be given. But the
23:01:16 <nsh> proof of that fact is very deep, and it raises interesting philosophical questions: In what sense does that classification scheme "exist"? (My own attitude is that I'm not really working with the classification schemes themselves; I'm just working with sentences about hypothetical classification schemes.)
23:01:20 <nsh> ]]] -http://www.math.vanderbilt.edu/~schectex/ccc/choice.html
23:02:33 <enki> monty?
23:02:33 <Monty> HUG FAILED
23:02:34 <nsh> [Don't] Just Say "No" To Negation.
23:02:40 * nsh chuckles
23:02:53 <enki> monty loves markov
23:02:54 <Monty> "Are you meant: .
23:03:07 <Arnia> nsh: well, the axiom of choice crops up whenever you wish to divide a set
23:03:27 <nsh> which is essential in any "sequential" reasoning process
23:03:30 <nsh> no?
23:03:43 <Arnia> nsh: well, not exactly... I should have said partition really
23:03:52 <Arnia> nsh: and it occurs when the partition is binary
23:04:29 <Arnia> if you have degrees of wibbly wobbly uncertainty, you do NOT invoke the axiom of choice
23:04:42 <Arnia> Indeed, that's part of the appeal of intuitionistic maths
23:05:10 * nsh is dubious that any finite partitioning is independent of AC
23:05:29 <nsh> that is, binary, 3-ary, 4-ary ...
23:05:39 <Arnia> nsh: read up on toposes for this bit
23:05:59 <Arnia> nsh: basically, it comes down to what form the sub-object classifier takes
23:06:42 * nsh nods in trust less than comprehension :-)
23:06:56 <Arnia> If it generates a boolean algebra, the internal logic of the topos has the axiom of choice but if it isn't boolean and rather a general Heyting algebra, then there is no axiom of choice
23:08:01 <Arnia> I'm wary about trying to explain any further at this time of night :)
23:08:21 <Arnia> anyway, I must dash
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23:08:47 <Arnia> I think wikipedia has some information on this stuff though
23:09:04 <nsh> thanks
23:09:07 <nsh> take it easy
23:15:21 <nsh> .ety poesy
23:15:24 <phenny> "c.1300, from O.Fr. poesie, from V.L. poesia, from L. poesis 'poetry,' from Gk. poesis 'composition, poetry,' from poein 'to make or compose' (see poet)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=poesy
23:15:36 <nsh> .ety poet
23:15:39 <phenny> "c.1300, from O.Fr. poete (12c.), from L. poeta 'poet, author,' from Gk. poetes 'maker, author, poet,' from poein 'to make or compose,' from PIE *kwoiwo- 'making,' from base *qwei- 'to make' (cf. Skt. cinoti 'heaping up, piling up,' O.C.S. cinu 'act, deed, order')." - http://etymonline.com/?term=poet
23:15:58 <nsh> .ety autopoiesis
23:16:01 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "autopoiesis". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=autopoiesis
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23:17:36 <nsh> .w garrulous
23:17:39 <phenny> garrulous a. 1: Full of trivial conversation.
23:18:29 *** bear_afk is now known as bear
23:18:47 <nsh> .g "reciprocal maintainance"
23:18:50 <phenny> nsh: http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/gurdjieff_books_compare39.htm
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23:27:27 * nsh feeds the moon
23:27:44 <nsh> that's it, my pretty, eat from my hand and become tame
23:27:51 <nsh> soon you shall me mine.
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23:32:36 <dmiles_afk> .g "So you think you may have found a bug in Microsoft Windows?"
23:32:39 <phenny> "So you think you may have found a bug in Microsoft Windows?": sorry, no results were found.
23:33:44 <nsh> what's the Burroughs bit where he talks about the energy released in deaths?
23:35:27 <kpreid> Ackgp!
23:36:11 <kpreid> So I was figuring netstrings would do... Guess what? The rest of my design is all streaming and doesn't provide the length up front
23:36:33 <kpreid> So I *have* to use some sort of delimiter-type system, or buffer a whole message
23:42:05 *** pierpa` is now known as pierpa
