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00:12:15 <sr> sbp, is there any chatlog where you discuss how you ended with that conclusion about the semweb?
00:12:25 <sbp> sr: yes, hang on a moment
00:12:57 <sbp> sr: http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-03-07.html#T15-03-49
00:13:03 <sbp> a warning though: it's many, many pages of logs
00:13:14 <sbp> and it doesn't cover the whole rationale. just bits of it
00:13:29 <sbp> I'm planning on doing a follow-up article
00:13:39 <sbp> you're not the only person to have asked this... :-)
00:15:05 <sr> eh :) I'll wait for the follow-up then
00:15:35 <sr> I am asking because IMO the process is far more interesting than the conclusion
00:15:47 <sbp> good point
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00:29:22 <cre8radix> re:hi
00:29:50 <sbp> yo cre8radix
00:31:32 <cre8radix> hey sbp
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00:55:24 <xover> sbp: Careful. It's a trap.
00:57:12 <sbp> nah, they won't convince me
00:57:18 <sbp> the force is too strong
00:57:31 <sbp> once the aura of self-deception is stripped, it's gone, I hope
00:57:57 <sbp> the thing that really did it was considering whether it's possibly to spin the self-deception to be productive
00:58:09 <xover> Attrition is a valid tactic.
00:58:13 <sbp> in other words, whether just working on specifications for the sake of specifications could amount to anything interesting and useful
00:58:31 <sbp> attrition doesn't work on the arrogant
00:58:41 <sbp> I know how to leverage my weakness to be strengths from time to time... :-)
00:58:50 <sbp> pitting them against Semantic Web developers = ftw
00:59:23 <sbp> I'm pretty sure I know better than all the other SW, uppercase, developers
00:59:28 <sbp> I've been through it all and come out the other side
00:59:54 <sbp> now I'm looking back and it and going "oh"
01:00:31 <sbp> here, I'll send you a draft of this article
01:00:59 <sbp> sent
01:01:22 * xover feels compelled to point out that “Arogance” is what got you embroiled in SW™ in the first place, but refrains as a matter of expediency…
01:03:11 * MoiraA gives up on today
01:03:14 <MoiraA> gives in
01:03:16 <MoiraA> surrenders
01:03:22 <MoiraA> today has won the battle
01:03:24 <MoiraA> but not the war
01:03:35 <MoiraA> sunday you have met your match
01:03:53 <xover> A sentence with “clueless” and a named subject is unnecessary to get the point across.
01:04:22 <xover> Unless your point /is/ to rag on the subject in question.
01:05:16 * sbp at the sentence
01:05:21 <sbp> yeah, I'm just ragging on Shirky
01:05:22 <sbp> heh
01:05:35 <sbp> +verb=looks
01:05:52 <sbp> MoiraA: it's not even half one yet!
01:06:16 <MoiraA> don't remind me
01:06:24 <MoiraA> the day has expanded
01:06:30 <MoiraA> grown in size
01:06:49 <sbp> xover: the subtext is that all Semantic Web developers hate Clay Shirky
01:06:54 <sbp> because of the adjectives that I listed
01:07:04 <sbp> so it's a way of striking up a knowing, nod-wink, rapport
01:07:28 * sbp will link that part of the article to here... :-)
01:07:51 <xover> At the expense of undermining your credibility by employing the rethorical technique of an ad hominem attack.
01:08:15 <sbp> yes, but it's one that nobody who matters will care about
01:08:23 * xover Does Not Approve Of This Message™…
01:08:32 <sbp> aw... I wanna ad hominem
01:08:35 <sbp> fuckin' hell
01:08:39 <sbp> let me have my fun!
01:08:57 <xover> You want to rag on Shirky? Address him directly.
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01:08:58 * sbp grumbles, removes the ad hominem
01:09:17 <sbp> what, send him an email you mean?
01:09:33 <sbp> it's not worth it, he's ridiculous
01:09:43 <sbp> he's the Winer of the Semantic Web world
01:09:50 <sbp> functionally, I mean
01:10:04 <sbp> he's ceased to become a person, and it used as an archetype
01:10:09 <sbp> s/it used/is used/
01:10:19 <sbp> quite a useful archetype, too
01:10:22 <MoiraA> my channel has some stupid users
01:10:30 <MoiraA> this guy is unbelievable
01:10:33 <xover> No, I mean your voice in the essay addresses a group of people, but puts down Shirkey in an aside.
01:10:36 <MoiraA> never mind
01:10:39 <MoiraA> my problem
01:10:50 <sbp> aha
01:10:56 <xover> You're stylistically talking about him behind his back.
01:10:56 <sbp> xover: how's this? “I didn't want to turn into merely a griping and unconstructive commentator, which is what happens when you only concentrate on the melancholy aspects of something like this.”
01:11:09 <sbp> s/happens/can happen/
01:11:09 <xover> Excellent.
01:11:26 <xover> Says the same, avoids the ad hominem.
01:12:01 <sbp> can I at least link "unconstructive commentator" to http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-07#T01-06-49 ?
01:12:13 <sbp> so that people can read down to here to understand a bit more of the subtext...
01:12:30 <xover> If you absolutely need to invoke a named subject, change the voice of the piece to adress that subject directly.
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01:13:13 <sbp> I don't, I just wanted to have a bit of fun
01:13:46 * xover puts on his “Now behave young man!” face and Frowns™ at sbp…
01:13:56 <sbp> I'll be good
01:14:08 <sbp> (but I will link to these logs... :-)
01:14:30 <sbp> (hellos, Whits readers, if you got this far. give yourself a cookie)
01:15:31 <sbp> is the rest okay?
01:15:42 <sbp> I've changed a few things. will post unless there's some other major hurdle
01:16:05 <sbp> don't want to labour it too much; just that people deserved (or at least requested en masse) this explanation
01:17:09 <xover> I don't get the strong Prescriptist vs. Descriptist message there that is core to me, but…
01:17:40 <sbp> I could get into that, but I could get into lots of other things too
01:17:51 <sbp> the DIG meeting agendæ being private, for example
01:18:03 <sbp> how ridiculous for a group that's supposed to be working on granular privacy!
01:18:09 <sbp> they haven't got a clue. they're not helping themselves
01:18:22 <xover> And I think you're too forgiving of the Models™ generated in that fashion, given there is no way to know if they actually apply to anything once exposed to Real Life™.
01:18:28 <sbp> but cf. unconstructive commentator...
01:18:37 <sbp> forgiving?!
01:18:48 <xover> You end up saying the models don't need to be thrown away.
01:18:49 <sbp> did I not use the word "pigfuckingly" enough or something?
01:18:56 <sbp> do I? sheesh
01:18:59 <sbp> what gives that impression?
01:19:02 <xover> Only the specific wankery over RDF qua RDF.
01:19:18 <sbp> no, I think RDF in total should be discarded. the whole layer stack
01:19:27 <sbp> man, I'd better reiterate that if that wasn't clear
01:19:47 <MoiraA> clear as mud sbp
01:21:36 <sbp> [[[
01:21:36 <sbp> It's not prudent, perhaps even not moral if that doesn't sound too melodramatic, to work on RDF, OWL, SPARQL, RIF, the broken ideas of {distributed trust http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-03-07.html#T15-42-31}, CWM, Tabulator, Dublin Core, FOAF, SIOC, and all of these kinds of things.
01:21:37 <sbp> ]]]
01:21:42 <sbp> I've added that. is that clear enough?
01:21:49 <sbp> (or does it need a "pigfuckingly"? :-)
01:22:08 <sbp> s/all of/any of/
01:22:11 <xover> It may, indeed, need a pigfuckingly.
01:22:16 <sbp> hehe
01:23:25 <xover> Whenever I even try to glance in the vague direction of anything SemWeb-y, my immediate impression is “crazy”; and I mean the batshit bugfuck kind of crazy.
01:26:38 <sbp> you pick up a lot of things on the periphery that are interesting
01:26:45 <kpreid> PERIPHERY!
01:26:45 <phenny> kpreid: 11:41Z <sbp> tell kpreid “07:50:31 <kpreid> sbp: does phenny fork by itself at all?” — sorry, I missed this question. she does, yes, thanks to the xover-hack for making threads KeyboardInterruptable
01:26:51 <sbp> I'd figured until now that you could retain the core whilst emphasizing the periphery
01:27:01 <sbp> but you can't. you have to abandon the core to save the periphery, I think
01:27:18 * sbp waves to kpreid
01:27:24 <sbp> YO MANG
01:28:38 <kpreid> mange? mangle? manganese? mangrove? mango?
01:29:20 <sbp> I've always like the word managanese
01:29:24 <sbp> er, manganese
01:29:30 <sbp> liked it tho it cannote be spelled
01:29:56 <MoiraA> you guys are mad mad mad
01:30:05 <MoiraA> where did you get pigfuckingly from?
01:30:17 <kpreid> http://theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Elements/025/index.s7.html
01:30:49 <sbp> MoiraA: it was the simple process of adding pigfucker, a common noun, to the adverbial suffix -ly
01:30:55 <MoiraA> I like it
01:31:17 <sbp> actually the gerund pigfucking, I suppose. pigfucker is the lemma in my mind
01:32:39 <sbp> alright, postin' this, sans pigfuckingly
01:33:44 <sbp> .title http://inamidst.com/whits/2008/ditching
01:33:45 <phenny> sbp: Ditching the Semantic Web?
01:33:55 <sbp> reviews within an hour would be highly appreciated
01:34:28 <sbp> heh, typo in the second paragraph
01:35:17 <sbp> fixed
01:36:29 <MoiraA> really?
01:36:31 <xover> Inbred can be augmented or replaced by Incestous, depending on taste.
01:36:32 <MoiraA> I'll read it
01:36:50 <MoiraA> in return you can have my user who is making a dog's breakfast out of connecting to a bouncer
01:36:56 <sbp> s/happened/happen/
01:37:26 <xover> “The problem” might be replaced with “The Fallacy”, again depending on taste.
01:37:51 <sbp> will stick with problem I think. trying to be vaguely conversational
01:37:58 <sbp> because it's such a boring subject
01:38:02 <MoiraA> hah
01:38:06 <MoiraA> better than what I have
01:38:06 <xover> Oh, nevermind. You use “fallacy” in the next sentence (ish).
01:39:46 <sbp> yeah, that too
01:40:29 <xover> Ugh. The dangers of writing too much Python.
01:40:51 <xover> You end up inserting parentheticals into your prose, without the actual parenthesis.
01:41:14 <sbp> where?
01:41:21 <xover> moral
01:41:22 <sbp> python has parens!
01:41:52 <xover> But your parentheticals do not. I find the relationship to be dangerously causal.
01:41:58 <sbp> nah, would sound odd with parens in there I think
01:42:08 <sbp> hmm
01:42:14 <sbp> actually, perhaps it would look okay
01:43:05 <xover> Hmm. Also. A Use Case is still not a Use; it's still off in theory with no practical application -land.
01:43:19 <sbp> xover: fixed the parens
01:43:31 <sbp> well when I say use case I really mean use
01:43:40 <xover> Right. Do they?
01:43:42 <sbp> when I say use, computer scientists see a dummy noun
01:43:48 <sbp> so can't win either way
01:45:20 <xover> That thrid last paragraph excuses SW. Of course there are use cases for it; you just pointed out a whole bunch of them in the previous article, and you didn't even, by your own admission, have to look very hard.
01:45:57 <sbp> well if that's a valid excuse then it's a valid excuse
01:46:07 <sbp> it's not an excuse for the technologies though
01:46:11 <sbp> which is the whole point
01:46:15 <sbp> because the technologies don't help
01:46:31 <xover> Yeah, but you don't say that in this article.
01:46:42 <sbp> it was in the Ambient Information one
01:46:43 <xover> At least not in sufficient proximity to that paragraph.
01:47:07 <sbp> it was, moreover, the whole *thesis* of Ambient Information...
01:48:02 * sbp is admittedly trying to avoid doing further editing at this point too... :-)
01:48:15 <xover> Are you under the impression I am commenting on your reasoning, as opposed to your “presentation”, perhaps? :-)
01:48:23 <sbp> hehe
01:48:33 <sbp> I could always improve my presentation
01:48:44 <sbp> one really big thing to do in that regard might be to show semantic-web@w3 this
01:48:53 <sbp> and then argue the point strongly on the mailing list
01:49:25 <xover> Well, it might be clear enough if read with an actually open mind; if the readers wants to understand rather then find some quibble to invalidate it.
01:49:34 <sbp> yeah
01:49:45 <sbp> the counter-argument for bringing it to semantic-web is that it is the Land of Quibbles
01:52:00 *** therethinker (i=4c76cb46@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1cd5f6346b6d4dfe) has joined #swhack
01:52:11 <therethinker> Hey!
01:52:17 <xover> In any case, it looks good.
01:52:22 <sbp> howdy twootman
01:52:24 <sbp> thanks
01:52:30 <sbp> let's hope it actually achieves something, anything
01:52:32 <xover> .tw therethinker is here!
01:52:39 <sbp> at least it's a declaration of how things are
01:52:54 <therethinker> You do know that twoot isn't here...
01:53:01 * xover excuses himself to go fooding…
01:53:23 <sbp> what, you mean .tw is unnatural syntax?
01:53:29 <sbp> c'ya xover. thanks for the help!
01:53:35 <therethinker> why, is it?
01:53:45 <sbp> well did you notice an irregularity with xover's line?
01:53:53 <therethinker> no...
01:54:02 <xover> You should make it ".twit".
01:54:05 <therethinker> Oh
01:54:06 <sbp> why'd you point out that twoot isn't here then? :-)
01:54:22 <therethinker> There's several commands .twitter works too
01:54:33 <sbp> .twankee
01:54:40 <therethinker> Ooh, I get it
01:54:40 <sbp> .twixt
01:54:46 * therethinker slaps self
01:54:51 <sbp> .twyndyllyngs
01:56:11 <therethinker> Anyway, I'm trying to go social
01:56:18 <therethinker> I've tried before, and failed
01:56:21 <sbp> is that anything like going postal?
01:56:39 <sbp> what does it mean to go social?
01:56:42 <sbp> is going social a good thing?
01:56:47 <therethinker> sort of, but it doesn't require bubble wrap
01:56:47 <sbp> what compelled you to go social?
01:57:03 <therethinker> Yes, dunno
01:57:04 <sbp> .wik Go postal
01:57:05 <phenny> "Going postal is an American English slang term, used as a verb meaning to suddenly become extremely and uncontrollably angry, possibly to the point of violence." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_postal
01:57:20 <therethinker> Wow, didn't know that
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01:57:49 <therethinker> Speak of the devil, it's laplink!
01:59:57 <sbp> yeah Monty, announce people more! you punctilative pantrybox of perfidinous porkings, pronkings, and pornkings
01:59:57 <Monty> hmm
02:00:08 <sbp> DO'T
02:00:34 <therethinker> porkings, promkings, and pornkings, interesting
02:00:48 <sbp> *pronkings*
02:00:56 <sbp> to pronk; it's a verb
02:02:23 <MoiraA> pronk? wonderful
02:02:27 <MoiraA> I could pronk kirkus
02:02:31 <MoiraA> his nick is in use
02:02:34 <therethinker> Oh
02:02:36 <MoiraA> yes because he's bloody using it
02:02:41 <MoiraA> people!
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02:02:44 <sbp> you could if it were a transitive verb
02:02:46 <therethinker> monsters!
02:02:48 <sbp> sadly it is not
02:02:52 <therethinker> .wik pronk
02:02:53 <phenny> "Pronking, or 'stotting', a behavior of gazelles involving leaping straight up during pursuit by a predator" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronk
02:03:25 <therethinker> so it doesn't take a D.O....
02:03:46 <sbp> 06:46:07 <sbp> cthompson: in college we had this book that had the craziest fucking science stuff in it, you know how science books always are, and one of the pictures was of this animal jumping and the caption was "A pronking springbok."
02:03:47 <sbp> 06:46:12 <sbp> you just don't forget that
02:03:47 <sbp> 06:46:21 <cthompson> excellent
02:03:51 <sbp> - http://swhack.com/logs/2008-02-26#T06-46-07
02:04:04 <therethinker> awesome
02:07:18 * sbp spots another typo in "ditching"
02:07:42 <therethinker> .calc 8GB / 200bytes
02:07:43 <phenny> 8GB / 200bytes = 8/25 (exactly 0.32) bit (information) frink.expr.BasicDateFormatterExpression()
02:07:53 <therethinker> err... what?
02:08:09 <therethinker> .calc 8GB in bytes
02:08:10 <phenny> 8GB in bytes = 8 frink.expr.BasicDateFormatterExpression() -> 8 bit (information) bytes
02:08:56 <therethinker> Hmm
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02:12:34 <sbp> use .c already
02:12:37 <sbp> .c 8GB in bytes
02:12:38 <phenny> 8 gigabytes = 8 589 934 592 bytes
02:12:42 <sbp> .c 8GB / 200 bytes
02:12:43 <phenny> (8 gigabytes) / (200 bytes) = 42 949 673
02:17:39 <therethinker> How was I supposed to know?
02:19:00 <therethinker> .c 1 ream
02:19:01 <phenny> therethinker: Sorry, no result.
02:20:13 <MoiraA> sbp this kirkus is a challenge big time
02:20:30 <MoiraA> can I help him make his nick stay offline until he's online
02:20:31 <MoiraA> really
02:23:11 <sbp> hmm?
02:23:12 <therethinker> .c 30 GBP in USD
02:23:12 <phenny> 30 British pounds = 59.95500 U.S. dollars
02:23:41 <therethinker> .c 11mm x 15mm in sq in
02:23:42 <phenny> (11 mm) x 15 mm = 0.255750512 sq in
02:24:26 <therethinker> .c 93.5 / 0.25575
02:24:27 <phenny> 93.5 / 0.25575 = 365.591398
02:24:51 <MoiraA> sbp I figure he's a troll
02:24:54 <MoiraA> he's unreal
02:25:09 <MoiraA> on the one hand clueless, then suddenly reveals that he actually knows more than he's letting on
02:25:16 <MoiraA> I think he's playing with us
02:25:23 <therethinker> .c 183 * 480
02:25:23 <phenny> 183 * 480 = 87 840
02:25:42 <therethinker> .c 43000000 / 87840
02:25:42 <phenny> 43 000 000 / 87 840 = 489.526412
02:26:12 <therethinker> .c 489.5 / 20
02:26:13 <phenny> 489.5 / 20 = 24.47500
02:26:50 <nslater> sbp: how hard would it be to get phenny to periodically watch a file and send notices to channel?
02:27:05 <nslater> sbp: in a similar vein to your referer bot
02:27:23 <therethinker> nslater: I'd take a hint from shellbot, not phenny
02:27:28 <therethinker> using tail
02:27:36 <nslater> therethinker: sorry, you lost me
02:27:43 <laplink> Use fam.
02:28:31 <MoiraA> I seem to attract these freaks like a magnet
02:28:52 <nslater> it's not the periodic watching that seems hard, it's the getting phenny to do something external to watching a channel
02:28:54 <therethinker> Wow, a 8GB microSD card holds 43,000,000 times more data than an equal amount of paper, and is 24 times more cost-efficient than paper
02:29:03 <therethinker> nslater: thread? :P
02:29:13 <therethinker> burn some CPU cycles
02:29:15 <nslater> therethinker: again, you lost me
02:32:41 <sbp> nslater: I don't know. you could use the refererbot's code
02:34:46 <nslater> sbp: sure, im interested in combining the functionality, ill let you know if i ever make any progress
02:40:30 <sbp> thankies
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02:46:16 <sbp> heh: http://www.leicestergalleries.com/provenart/dealer_stock_details.cgi?d_id=&a_id=12053
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02:47:18 <sbp> MoiraA: I tend to just kick 'em
02:47:24 <sbp> no scruples or messing around
02:47:52 <MoiraA> he has to be trolling
02:47:55 <MoiraA> he's unreal
02:48:02 <MoiraA> ive moved on
02:48:10 <MoiraA> decided to unravel flashfxp
02:48:15 <MoiraA> downloading a debugger
02:48:28 <MoiraA> I want to take out its timer, however just for fun
02:48:30 <MoiraA> I will buy it
02:49:07 <MoiraA> just want to see if I can reverse engineer it with XV1 2.51
02:49:28 <MoiraA> windows is a pain in the arse
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03:01:27 <MoiraA> sbp can I ask you something?
03:01:44 <MoiraA> I have a request from someone wanting to pay a programmer to build him a suduko game in python
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03:01:54 <MoiraA> is that a difficult task, time consuming, or easy
03:02:02 <sbp> I think it's fairly easy
03:02:05 <sbp> I once looked into it
03:02:05 <MoiraA> ok
03:02:20 <MoiraA> if you know of anyone interested in doing this for decent money, let me know?
03:02:28 <sbp> will do
03:02:44 <sbp> though it's unlikely I'd count any such person a friend... :-)
03:05:48 <sbp> hey, I just thought!
03:05:48 *** Charibo^aw is now known as Charibo
03:05:55 <laplink> .g python sudoku
03:05:56 <phenny> laplink: http://pythonsudoku.sourceforge.net/
03:05:56 <sbp> RDF is a bit like the Java of the formats world
03:06:05 <Charibo> cu guys
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03:06:09 <sbp> people will argue and argue that it's useful for something, and successful
03:06:11 <MoiraA> ooh thanks
03:06:21 <sbp> and there's a big crowd *devoted* to it
03:06:28 <MoiraA> oh sbp, would you not want much to do with someone like that?
03:06:32 <sbp> but at the end of the day, its disutility is surely self-evident more than anything
03:06:38 <MoiraA> that's true
03:06:44 <MoiraA> never looked at it like that
03:07:01 <sbp> MoiraA: if you're asking why, because I hate Sudoku. the reason I looked into a solver for it was that I figured it probably wasn't very complicated
03:07:05 <MoiraA> however, if it gives some hard up student the chance to earn some money then I don't have a problem
03:07:11 <sbp> it's just like doing mental arithmetic or sometihng
03:07:14 * MoiraA also hates suduko
03:07:18 <MoiraA> quite
03:07:22 <sbp> I don't find *basic* puzzles very useful
03:07:24 <MoiraA> not what I choose to do with my free time
03:07:26 <kpreid> "...the little known unit of uninterest, the watt-ever."
03:07:42 <MoiraA> I can see where you're comingfrom
03:07:44 <sbp> it's not like physical exercise where you can do a little of some boring repetetive movement and gain the best benefits from it
03:07:52 <MoiraA> if you want to learn python, then it might be useful
03:07:55 <sbp> with mental exercise, there are always grandois alternatives
03:07:57 <MoiraA> but if you already know it
03:07:58 <sbp> +e
03:07:59 <MoiraA> like you
03:08:13 <sbp> hmm, yeah, might well be useful as a python teaching device
03:08:15 <sbp> good idea
03:08:16 <MoiraA> I remember one stunningly boring arcade game I made in vb
03:08:40 <MoiraA> first person I proudly sent it to didn't even have the dot net framework!
03:08:57 <sbp> heh
03:09:09 <sbp> kpreid: watt-ever: ahahaha
03:09:42 <kpreid> thankyou
03:09:49 <MoiraA> lol
03:10:01 <MoiraA> this guy is talking of paying £400
03:11:11 <MoiraA> haha he hates suduko to
03:11:12 <sbp> £400 for a Sudoku solver in python?
03:11:25 <MoiraA> why does he want to pay 400 for a suduko game he hates?
03:11:32 <laplink> .wik Easy Money
03:11:33 <phenny> "Easy Money (film), a 1983 film starring Rodney Dangerfield" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easy_Money
03:11:35 <MoiraA> sbp I attract these weirdos something bad
03:11:40 <sbp> heh. I was satisfied merely with knowing there was a simple iterative solution to it
03:11:41 <laplink> .wik Sucker
03:11:41 <phenny> "Sucker, also called a lollipop, a type of confectionery consisting mainly of hardened, flavoured sucrose with corn syrup mounted on a stick and intended for sucking or licking" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucker
03:11:54 <laplink> FAIL!
03:12:20 <nsh> Monorail!
03:12:23 *** cr`x (n=crux@user-12lcqh4.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #swhack
03:12:31 <sbp> mono... d'oh!
03:12:35 <nsh> someone point me to something cool
03:12:41 <nsh> right the hell now
03:12:42 <sbp> okay, hang on
03:12:59 <sbp> nsh: http://data.tumblr.com/XgKk0gEJx69j7d22RcqfGoMU_500.png
03:13:13 <sbp> sry for delay
03:13:23 <nsh> iz k
03:13:49 <nsh> (ulzlay)
03:20:50 <nsh> .ety solenoid
03:20:51 <phenny> "'coil of insulated wire carrying an electrical current and having magnetic properties,' 1827, from Fr. solénoïde, from Gk. solen 'pipe, channel' + comb. form of eidos 'form, shape' (see -oid)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=solenoid
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03:33:16 <cr`x> what letter is QI up to?
03:34:36 <sbp> nu
03:34:48 <nslater> what does nu mean pls?
03:35:00 <sbp> NO YUO
03:35:05 <nslater> okai
03:35:29 <cr`x> :(
03:35:37 <nslater> i thought it might be related to mu
03:36:22 <sbp> Johnny Wilkinson just set a record for points kicked in rugby
03:36:27 <nsh> .ety atavistic
03:36:27 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "atavistic". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=atavistic
03:36:44 <cr`x> lat. atavus, forefather
03:36:58 <nsh> .ety atavar
03:36:58 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "atavar". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=atavar
03:37:01 <nsh> mm
03:37:25 <nsh> .ety atavus
03:37:25 <nsh> the game is to find which derivation etymonline has
03:37:25 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "atavus". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=atavus
03:37:30 <nsh> so determine the pie root
03:37:42 <cr`x> oh dear i'm becoming hungry
03:37:50 * nsh is becoming cold-of-foot
03:37:52 * sbp eats foods
03:39:35 <nsh> .ety atavism
03:39:35 <phenny> "1833, from F. atavisme, coined 1830s from L. atavus 'ancestor,' from at- perhaps here meaning 'beyond' + avus 'grandfather,' from PIE *awo- 'adult male relative other than the father.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=atavism
03:39:40 <sbp> AWO
03:39:41 <sbp> well done
03:39:54 <nsh> treaclepartybear
03:40:10 <nsh> you know, the bear who always turns up uninvited to your treacle parties
03:40:17 <sbp> hehe
03:40:35 <nsh> and you try and explain that he can't play treacle-tub-mountain because he's all furry and it'll be a hassle to get off
03:40:37 <nsh> but he never listens
03:40:48 <nsh> never listens.. :-/
03:41:51 <nsh> [[[
03:41:52 <nsh> Some technologists advocate design; others, prefer evolutionary search algorithms. Still others would selectively conflate the two, hoping to incorporate the best of both paradigms while avoiding their limitations. But while both processes are powerful, they are very different, and they are not easily combined. Rather, they present divergent paths.
03:42:09 <nsh> ]]] -http://jurvetson.blogspot.com/
03:42:14 <nsh> idiot.
03:43:02 <nsh> Compare, for example, Microsoft code to biological code: Office 2004 is larger than the human genome.
03:43:12 <nsh> (ibid.) retard.
03:43:24 * nsh should stop reading
03:44:15 <nsh> "In fact, biological evolution provides the only existence proof that an algorithm can produce complexity that transcends its antecedents."
03:44:45 <nsh> what does that even mean?
03:45:16 <nslater> that he's high as a kite?
03:45:33 <nsh> i bet if this guy was in the room with me right now, i could press that point for over an hour and he'd just end up waving his hands and looking ignorant
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03:45:51 <sbp> ROOSTER POTATOES
03:45:56 <sbp> - an advert at this stadium
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03:45:57 <nslater> his internets got hacked!
03:46:04 <nslater> he hcked ur internets d00d
03:46:08 <sbp> nsh: aw man, you missed the advert
03:46:15 <nslater> and the girls
03:46:28 <nsh> brmr
03:46:28 <nslater> it all happened in those 5 seconds you were gone
03:46:38 <nsh> loggy, pointer?
03:46:38 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-07#T03-46-38
03:47:04 <nslater> okay, so i lied about the girls
03:47:05 <nsh> awesome
03:47:08 <nsh> you're a lie about girls
03:47:33 <nsh> [[[
03:47:51 <nsh> But evolved systems have their disadvantages. For one, they suffer from subsystem inscrutability, especially within their information networks. That is, when we direct the evolution of a system or train a neural network, we may know how the evolutionary process works, but we will not necessarily understand how the resulting system works internally.
03:47:52 <nsh> For example, when Danny Hillis evolved a simple sort algorithm, the process produced inscrutable and mysterious code that did a good job at sorting numbers. But had he taken the time to reverse-engineer his evolved system, the effort would not have provided much generalized insight into evolved artifacts.
03:47:57 <nsh> ]]] -ibid
03:48:25 <cr`x> god, i suffered from subsystem inscrutability once, took me weeks to get rid of
03:48:29 <nsh> here the author decisively bridged the gap between intellectually wrong and morally wrong
03:48:35 <twe> And in the gap.
03:48:42 <sbp> nice bit of salve, works wonders
03:48:43 <cr`x> twe the twe twe
03:48:50 <twe> cr`x: Twe twe twe.
03:48:59 <cr`x> 'swhat i said, nearly
03:52:54 <tommorris> a simple but double-pronged question for the almighty #swhack: do developers prefer IRC to other chat protocols and why?
03:53:47 <MoiraA> aaargh
03:53:51 <laplink> Yes. The chicks.
03:53:53 <MoiraA> my blog has gone pear shaped
03:53:59 <nslater> I for one prefer IRC because you meet new people, my experience with other protocols is that you have to already know people.
03:54:06 <nslater> Also, hawt chix.
03:54:28 * MoiraA hates javascript and CSS so much
03:55:30 <tommorris> personally, it's because I can have 20 different channels going at once with interesting people discussing things I like in all of them
03:55:56 <MoiraA> or boring crap from the likes of me
03:55:58 <tommorris> the platform is also open, and the software I use is open-source and very straight forward and not-annoying
03:56:13 <cr`x> MoiraA, glad to see you've recovered your senses
03:56:18 <nslater> I never really used Jabber all that much so I may be wrong, but I like the fact that with IRC I can just hope over to irc.mozilla.org#jsapi if I am having trouble with compiling SpiderMonkey
03:56:31 <MoiraA> oh that
03:56:34 * MoiraA blushes
03:56:40 * MoiraA hangs head in shame
03:56:43 <nslater> ... for example
03:56:47 <cr`x> :D
03:56:47 <MoiraA> I'm still messed up cr`x
03:56:57 <MoiraA> and now I have become a technical dunce
03:57:01 <cr`x> Well you comport yourself much more nicely
03:57:10 <MoiraA> my website is broken
03:57:20 <MoiraA> I just can't grasp css and javascript
03:57:24 <cr`x> websites are made to be broken, didn't anyone ever tell you that?
03:57:28 <MoiraA> lol
03:57:38 <MoiraA> I've asked benji my index page designer to sort it
03:57:41 <tommorris> MoiraA: set yourself up a Gopher server instead
03:57:43 <MoiraA> he's paid enough
03:57:50 <nslater> MoiraA: URI?
03:57:50 <MoiraA> all I want is for it to work
03:57:56 <MoiraA> oh dear this will be embarrassing
03:58:04 <MoiraA> www.moiraatkinson.co.uk
03:58:06 <tommorris> I found gopher://seanm.ca/ today
03:58:20 * nslater finds it funny that gopher still exists
03:58:36 <MoiraA> well you can role around laughing at this
03:58:51 <MoiraA> and here's me saying before I was planning on reverse engineering flashfxp
03:58:53 <MoiraA> sheesh
03:59:26 <MoiraA> at least the link of kay works
03:59:46 <nslater> you link to the validator but you have ovar 9000 errors :p
04:00:05 <MoiraA> I do?
04:00:06 <MoiraA> hell
04:00:14 <MoiraA> all my wonderful web designer can offer is
04:00:15 <MoiraA> [16:19] « Benjy» : i can definately say something odd is happening
04:00:18 <tommorris> I'm thinking of moving my site over to a VPS - there's a nice Gopher server written in Python. It'd be great to rewrite my blog so I can access it over Gopher.
04:00:19 <nslater> well, 21
04:00:22 <MoiraA> Id got that far
04:00:34 <Arnia> hm
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04:00:43 <Arnia> .rirlw
04:00:45 <Arnia> uh
04:00:50 <Arnia> .title http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/jennifer.htm
04:00:50 <phenny> Arnia: Project Jennifer / Hughes Glomar Explorer
04:05:00 <cr`x> fuckn merkins amirite
04:05:07 * cr`x yernotwrong
04:05:41 <tommorris> this article is made of win: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~rohit/IEEE-L7-http-gopher.html
04:06:04 * sbp reads http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=466728 and chuckles
04:06:06 <sbp> poor nslater
04:06:12 <sbp> tommorris: YOU'VE BEEN PODCASTED
04:06:28 <sbp> haven't listened to it yet, watching Rugby. worth listening to?
04:06:37 <tommorris> huzzah!
04:07:04 <tommorris> It's kinda fun actually - just a tour guide of my ~/code/ directory
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04:10:54 * kwijibo curses apple for making him buy an expensive adapter to use a non-apple monitor with his laptop
04:11:55 <MoiraA> oh wonderful benji
04:11:57 <MoiraA> he fixed it
04:12:17 <MoiraA> what it was was that <div class="entry"> was not ended with a <div>
04:12:17 <MoiraA> so everything on the site was then placed inside that div.
04:12:18 <nslater> sbp: lol
04:12:49 <MoiraA> does it still have validator errors?
04:12:55 <tommorris> .g Firebug
04:12:56 <phenny> tommorris: http://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/1843
04:13:06 <tommorris> MoiraA: ^^ use Firebug!
04:13:19 <MoiraA> ok will do
04:13:20 <MoiraA> thanks
04:13:21 <sbp> .val http://www.moiraatkinson.co.uk/
04:13:22 <phenny> sbp: http://www.moiraatkinson.co.uk/ is Invalid (19 errors)
04:13:27 <MoiraA> oh crap
04:13:32 <MoiraA> phenny I hate you
04:13:36 <MoiraA> find them :)
04:13:39 <MoiraA> ok I will sort
04:13:54 <sbp> to see a full report, try http://validator.w3.org/
04:14:00 <sbp> phenny can't give a full report on IRC, of course
04:14:09 <nslater> .val bytesexual.org
04:14:11 <phenny> nslater: http://bytesexual.org is Invalid (4 errors)
04:14:15 <nslater> WHAT!
04:14:25 <nslater> it's only about 10 bytes
04:14:27 <cr`x> sbp, are there any palaeogrophy textbooks you particularly like?
04:14:35 <nslater> how could i fail so bad
04:15:06 <sbp> cr`x: nope, none I could recommend
04:15:13 <cr`x> pfah.
04:15:19 <sbp> I'm mainly interested in the transition period between secretary and italic
04:15:25 <sbp> and deciphering difficult secretary hands
04:15:25 <twe> Mainly in the x86 line.
04:15:27 <nsh> Wearing an "I'm probably lying" T-shirt in your police mug-shot: priceless
04:15:29 <nslater> .val bytesexual.org
04:15:31 <phenny> nslater: http://bytesexual.org is Valid
04:15:32 <sbp> and I think you get as much from experience as anything else
04:15:34 <nslater> woooo
04:15:38 <cr`x> aye.
04:15:39 <sbp> just look at loads of documents and their transcriptions
04:15:44 <nslater> HTML 4.01 Strict FTW.
04:15:44 <sbp> then practice on other documents
04:16:03 <cr`x> i'm not as interested in the practice of it, to be honest
04:16:38 <cr`x> as much as having a very rich resource/database/illustrated encylopedia/etc of the various hands
04:16:45 <nslater> .val bytesexual.org/shifter/
04:16:46 <phenny> nslater: http://bytesexual.org/shifter/ is Valid
04:16:59 <cr`x> For me it's a mostly aesthetic exercise
04:17:01 <sbp> yeah, that might be interesting
04:17:06 <nslater> .val bytesexual.org/couchng/
04:17:07 <phenny> nslater: http://bytesexual.org/couchng/ is Valid
04:17:14 <sbp> as a creative thing?
04:17:20 <cr`x> In a sense, yes.
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04:18:31 <cr`x> In the sense of 'creative thing' that quite a bit of my activity does fall under, ie, the creation and development of my own aesthetic framework, and the expansion/deepening of my frame of reference in every more concretely creative endeavour i *do* undertake
04:19:08 <cr`x> If you follow.
04:19:12 <nslater> plum: do you still want to embed the compsci dept into the toilet?
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04:19:30 <Arnia> I'm trying to remember where I saw that poster which showed all the different subjects in the sciences and how active they were and how they interlinked
04:19:38 <cr`x> There's actually one book that I know I very much do want, but is unavailable for under 50USD
04:19:43 <sbp> yeah
04:19:55 <sdkay> cr`x: torrent?
04:19:56 <sbp> Arnia: oh yeah, I saw that. hmm
04:20:18 <nslater> plum: do you still want to embed the compsci dept into the toilet?
04:20:26 <plum> william morris. a dream of john ball, all the other shoe.
04:20:28 <cr`x> sdkay: not as far as I've seen. I'm not sure the pirating community has any real interest in half-century old specialist books about typography
04:20:31 <sbp> Arnia: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/82/430561725_4eb7bc5d8a_o.jpg
04:20:33 <cr`x> .title http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0277-903X(196624)19%3A4%3C379%3ACT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-8
04:20:40 <phenny> cr`x: JSTOR: Renaissance News: Vol. 19, No. 4 (Winter, 1966), p. 379
04:20:41 <Arnia> Really need to have a shower though before going to the ball
04:20:44 <sdkay> cr`x: That would make sense.
04:20:47 <Arnia> Just had a haircut
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04:25:44 <Arnia> danke
04:27:52 <cr`x> bitte
04:28:44 <sbp> auch
04:29:51 <cr`x> My pipes rattle, whenever the heat comes on, so loudly that I am woken from sleep, or that I can't hear music playing at a reasonable volume.
04:30:12 <sdkay> The tubes? Maybe you should get more bandwidth.
04:30:40 <sdkay> <_<
04:31:50 <Arnia> I still like this advert, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3_hLTKiIZE
04:32:49 <cr`x> arnia, have you seen the royksopp video whence that is derived?
04:32:57 <Arnia> And of course, http://www.visual-literacy.org/periodic_table/periodic_table.html
04:33:11 <Arnia> cr`x: yes... although it is also just a form of infographic
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04:33:49 <Arnia> cr`x: but so was the video... those sorts of diagrams found in children's books and academic literature as well as in magazines
04:34:04 <cr`x> that periodic table is nearly mrdered by the typeface for me
04:34:36 <cr`x> (i'm also not sure it's technically periodic :/)
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04:49:09 <nslater> "But in as much as this reminds me of the airy nothinghood that the Semantic Web espouses, it's probably best to just start from scratch on the trendy terminology front as well."
04:49:17 <nslater> made me laugh :p
04:49:22 <sbp> hehe. good, good
04:49:35 <nslater> specifically "airy nothinghood"
04:49:36 <sbp> ja_ (*waves*) doesn't seem to have found it so funny
04:49:45 <nslater> i might append a "h" and use it as an ad hominem some time
04:49:46 * sdkay airs out your nothinghood
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04:49:58 <sbp> heh
04:51:15 <nslater> sbp: im not even sure how i feel about your essays, but they've cast me into a conceptual tumbolia of doubt, which is probably a good thing
04:51:36 <ja_> i find them boring and devoid of useful information :)
04:52:04 <sbp> why do you read them?
04:52:10 <ja_> maybe thats because i already thought the 'layer cake' was a pointless clusterfuck, though
04:52:17 <sbp> heh
04:52:41 <sdkay> Did somebody say cake?!
04:52:44 <ja_> will be interseting to see if it makes TWSW
04:52:49 <nslater> THE CAEK IS A LIE!
04:52:54 <ja_> danja links some random ass posts of mine
04:52:54 <sbp> yeah, I've been wondering that too
04:52:59 <ja_> so anything is possible
04:53:06 <sbp> and whether danja would ever interview me for Nodalities...
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05:00:48 <nslater> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/07/iphone-gpl
05:00:49 <nslater> .title
05:00:49 <phenny> nslater: Can GPL iPhone apps exist? [dive into mark]
05:01:44 <cr`x> sbp, i think 'thole' is a word you might have taken up as champion
05:02:04 <xover> I think Mark is looking for problems where there are none.
05:02:20 <sbp> cr`x: pizzardon me?
05:02:43 <cr`x> I'm rereading Seamus heaney's introduction to his Beowulf
05:02:48 <nslater> xover: I don't think he is, it's a valid concern. A lot of kickass OS X software is GPLd, it that's not going to be possible with the iPhone, well, that's interesting.
05:02:48 <sdkay> Why not? You'd just release the source on you site, and include the GPL either in the app's resources/ directory or in some user-agreement-looking screen when you download it.
05:02:49 <xover> Providing the AppStore as a service doesn't make Apple subject to the details of the GPL any more than the AppStore gives them Copyright interest in your code.
05:03:04 <nslater> xover: it does if they are distributing the software, which they are
05:03:23 <sbp> cr`x: I have that. which bit?
05:03:25 <nslater> xover: thats a pretty fundamental aspect of the GPL
05:03:32 <xover> nslater: Is AT&T bound by the GPL just because I get my DSL line from them?
05:03:44 <nslater> xover: thats conceptually and legally different
05:04:09 <xover> Is Earthlink bound by the GPL just because I host my binary downloads on their hosting service?
05:04:23 <nslater> No, the person responsible for the download is, legally.
05:04:23 <cr`x> he talks about þolian; the anglo-saxon 'to suffer', which he picked up in his ulster aunt's regional speech, and then found again in 20th century American South poetry, brought over by the scots-irish
05:04:38 <cr`x> page xxv
05:04:39 <sbp> ha
05:04:44 <sbp> I see now
05:04:49 <sbp> I'd been misparsing it as t-hole
05:04:58 <cr`x> what!?
05:04:59 <sbp> “YOU FUCKING T-HOLE”
05:05:02 <sbp> yeah
05:05:05 <cr`x> haha
05:05:20 <xover> Apple is providing you, the developer, with a “Virtual Webshop” service. License compliances is your problem, not theirs.
05:05:34 <xover> (above normal due dilligence)
05:05:38 <cr`x> sbp, my dear man, you as a man of letters and wide ranging interests, i cannot help sway myself from the notion that you would be singularly enraptured by the appelation 'T-Hole'
05:05:43 <nslater> xover: but that still doesnt change the concern, that GPL software might not be possible
05:05:56 <xover> nslater: I see not the slightest problem here.
05:06:03 <nslater> xover: with no GPL software?
05:06:15 <sbp> once I work out what a T-Hole is, I will most likely be dispensing it as an insult freely
05:06:21 <nslater> xover: do you not use any GPL software?
05:06:38 <sbp> EFL2 tw
05:06:41 <sbp> ...ftw
05:06:47 <sbp> I totally t-holed that
05:06:50 <sbp> hmm. no, that doesn't work
05:06:54 <xover> nslater: I intend to relase my GPL software through the AppStore at sme point.
05:07:09 <nslater> xover: how do you intend to distribute the source code?
05:07:18 <xover> Like I always have.
05:07:19 <nslater> xover: are you sure Apple is not legally required to offer the same?
05:07:25 <nslater> xover: just like linux distros are?
05:07:53 <xover> The Linux distros are creating a derivative work, plus some “mere aggregation”.
05:07:59 <xover> Apple aren't.
05:08:16 <nslater> But the GPL doesn't require that, it only requires re-distribution.
05:08:19 <cr`x> Dear friends: I think it is time to switch from Scala.
05:08:50 <xover> nslater: If you're really that worried, put the source code on the .dmg with the .app; problem solved.
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05:09:06 <xover> I repeat, there is no problem here.
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05:10:25 <nslater> meh, the whole thing seems very wrong an broken to me, but oh well, such is life
05:10:54 <xover> nslater: Yes, it tends to rub many people the wrong way when Apple insists on maintaining control over their platform.
05:11:15 <nslater> xover: where you see "their" I would like to see "our" :p
05:11:27 <sbp> ahahaha
05:11:29 <nslater> xover: and that's where it breaks for me
05:11:32 <sbp> woah, how did I not hear about this before?
05:11:40 <sbp> Portsmouth kicked Man U out of the FA Cup!
05:11:44 <sbp> 1-0, at Old Trafford!
05:11:54 <xover> nslater: They realise this. And they do respect their customers. So they go as far as they can in catering to them, without giving up that control.
05:12:23 <nslater> xover: you mean as far as they wish to go, they could go a lot further if they decided to
05:12:36 <xover> nslater: Not without losing that control.
05:12:56 <nslater> xover: well yes, but my issue is with them having control in the first place, no in how they pursue it as a goal
05:13:17 <xover> Why wouldn't they have control?
05:13:25 <xover> Or “shouldn't” if you prefer.
05:13:47 <sdkay> control, quality, Free, pick two?
05:13:53 <xover> Once the device is in your hands you have the ultimate control. SMash it with a brick if you like.
05:13:56 <nslater> they can do what they like, just like microsoft is free to make and distribute windows, but i prefer a free platform
05:14:14 <sdkay> Oh, wait. that doesn't work for MS.
05:14:16 *** darobin (n=robinb@m57.net81-66-103.noos.fr) has joined #swhack
05:14:18 <nslater> also, "control vs. quality" is clearly bogus
05:14:19 <xover> Oh preference, is it? Well, I'll not argue with your preference. It is, after all, yours.
05:14:59 <xover> nslater: Ask Linus Torvalds about control at some point.
05:15:10 <nslater> im not sure what that is supposed to mean
05:15:27 <nslater> the linux kernel is totally free
05:15:32 <xover> The Linux kernel is probably one of the most tightly controled projects out there; closed source r open.
05:15:56 <xover> I'll grant Steve Jobs is probably more of a micro-
05:16:03 <nslater> not really, it's a differrent definition of controled though. linus controls his own army of developers very tightly, or so you say (I really wouldn't know) but his product is totally free
05:16:08 <xover> -managing control-freak than Linus, but... :-)
05:16:10 <nslater> I can take it and do whatever I like to it
05:16:18 <nslater> and thats the kind of freedom I am interested in
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05:17:01 <xover> Right. And Apple wants the freedom to tightly couple their hardware and software in order to make both shine.
05:17:36 <nslater> and that's fine, but I will stay away because it doesnt fit into my view of how a platform should be operated
05:17:41 <cr`x> Borges Gris will take its place! Ta-dum!
05:17:52 <xover> nslater: Your choice.
05:17:57 <nslater> natch
05:18:22 <xover> You'll be depriving yourself of a good tool for what I think are the wrong reasons, but it's most certainly your choice.
05:18:58 <nslater> but I value freedom over utility, so for me it is a great choice :p
05:19:16 <xover> Certainly.
05:19:22 * nslater smiles
05:20:07 <xover> Then again, I don't think the lack of freedom is a practical concern in this case; only a philosophical and political one.
05:21:11 <nslater> but for someone who values philosophy and politics over practicality, that makes sense, right? heh
05:21:21 <xover> And in that sense I'm much more concerned that Apple hasn't released sufficient hardware specs to replace OS X with some Linux-based variant.
05:21:23 <nslater> anyway, I am sure there are plenty of practical ways this could effect someone
05:21:33 <nslater> are you kidding?
05:21:51 <nslater> I am currently running Ubuntu on a dual-core PowerMac
05:22:01 <nslater> ... and it's great! :)
05:22:05 <xover> On the iPhone?
05:22:13 <nslater> you said OS X
05:22:23 <xover> Yes, you're talking about Mac OS X. :-)
05:22:35 <nslater> im confused now
05:22:47 <nslater> are you talking about hardware specs for the iphone?
05:22:50 <nslater> or for powerpcs?
05:22:59 <nslater> or macs or whatever, with the move to intel
05:23:29 <xover> They haven't release the hardware specs for the iPhone.
05:23:30 *** cthompson (n=ct@cpe-65-27-254-58.cinci.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
05:23:47 <xover> Which doesn't make it impossible, but it does make it a lot harder.
05:23:56 <nslater> http://code.google.com/p/iphone-linux/
05:23:57 <nslater> heh
05:24:05 <xover> On their general purpose computers the need for specs is much less.
05:24:25 <nslater> yes, it is a concern, either way, linux on the iphone would be pretty sweet
05:24:39 <nslater> I love apple hardware! well, until it breaks and costs you £500 for a replacement psu
05:24:54 <nslater> (true story)
05:25:14 <cthompson> that's why you pay $200 up front for applecare
05:25:32 <nslater> well, i have read in many places that extended warrenty type deals are usually a net loss
05:25:49 <cthompson> buying computer hardware is a net loss
05:26:02 <cthompson> you can thank Moore and his law
05:26:06 <nslater> yeah, if you only use them for p40n and mp3 collections :p
05:26:50 * sdkay makes a joke about Comcast being a 'net loss
05:27:12 <cthompson> June of 1987 I bought, for my Atari 520ST, a 20meg hard drive. $985
05:27:24 <nslater> niiice
05:27:43 <cthompson> but man that machine would play a mean game of Starglider
05:27:53 <cthompson> and connect over my 300baud modem to all the cool BBSs
05:27:57 <cthompson> dear god I'm old
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05:28:15 <nsh> anyone having trouble connecting to gmail?
05:28:30 <cthompson> it's up here
05:28:41 <cthompson> from the heart of the blizzard in ohio
05:28:41 <cr`x> their imap server works, anyway.
05:28:41 * nsh shakes angry fist at leak wi-fi
05:29:32 <nsh> leak with a w
05:30:51 * nslater imagines leak powered wi-fi
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05:32:20 <nslater> .title http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001072.html
05:32:21 <phenny> nslater: Coding Horror: A Question of Programming Ethics
05:32:22 <nslater> wtf
05:32:41 <nsh> pft
05:32:46 <nsh> "as an acm member..."
05:32:54 <nsh> what a joke
05:33:12 <nslater> that's pretty epic
05:42:15 <sdkay> Now I'm never going to trust third-party aim clients anymore, thanks.
05:42:16 <sdkay> :P
05:42:35 <sdkay> s/anymore/again/
05:49:19 <cthompson> http://www.femaleleadguitarists.com/q/classicsolo/index.aspx
05:49:32 <cthompson> You are a Master! You're either an old man or a serious throwback!
05:50:15 <cthompson> I got 13/15
05:57:15 <cr`x> i dint know that mcartney played that solo.
05:57:43 <cthompson> I got that one wrong too
05:57:57 <cthompson> knew the song, clicked Harrison
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06:05:13 *** leobard (n=Miranda@rtr-u.ae.krakow.pl) has joined #swhack
06:07:00 *** xjrn (n=xjrn@c-76-102-228-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
06:08:17 <deltab> "Narrator: FI GLOVER"
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06:13:02 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's crschmidt!
06:13:08 <crschmidt> sbp: ping?
06:14:03 <crschmidt> something is using up a lot of disk on bia -- to the tune of 4MB/s. I don't know what it is. I notice that you have a hypercalc process running, which is the only thing out of the ordinary that I can see.
06:14:09 <crschmidt> does it possibly use disk?
06:14:12 *** leobard41 (n=Miranda@rtr-u.ae.krakow.pl) has joined #swhack
06:14:12 <Monty> But what does leobard41 have to do with the price of fish?
06:14:12 *** leobard41 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
06:15:19 <crschmidt> I see that your 'tmp' in your homedir is at 19GB
06:16:01 <nslater> wow, heh
06:16:12 <crschmidt> all of it in the hc_log file
06:16:16 <nslater> crschmidt: wont lsof tell you what you need to know?
06:16:21 <crschmidt> I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to remove that file
06:16:33 <crschmidt> I've got about 15 seconds until the machine is out of disk again
06:17:19 <nsh> make it dead.
06:18:22 <crschmidt> It appears that every thing is just I2=
06:19:55 <sbp> crschmidt: pong
06:19:59 <sbp> yeah, I've noticed this...
06:20:11 <sbp> hmm, hypercalc shouldn't be doing anything evil
06:20:29 <crschmidt> hypercalc was writing several htousand lines of "I2=" to tmp/hc_log every second
06:20:36 <sbp> hmm!
06:20:46 <sbp> bloody hell. sorry
06:20:53 <sbp> I'll remove this functionality
06:21:01 <sbp> post haste. doing it now
06:21:06 <crschmidt> the perl process that was running at the time was "hypercalc g64"
06:21:12 <crschmidt> If that helps you at all.
06:21:25 <sbp> aye, I've got it
06:21:29 <crschmidt> Anyway,, I had to kill it; removing the file unfortunately doesn't clean up the actual disk since the proess holds the file open
06:21:42 <sbp> no problem at all
06:22:00 <nsh> mmm
06:22:05 <sbp> it's basically an errancy of the program
06:22:16 <sbp> I didn't know it was saving to a log file somewhere. it wasn't in the documentation as far as I saw
06:22:29 <sbp> and in tests, when I'd piped it output and headed it, that seemed to exit the program
06:22:50 <sbp> alright, shouldn't happen again now
06:23:03 <crschmidt> THanks
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06:25:58 <cre8radix> sbp: you gonna port the timer.py?
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06:29:12 <sbp> cre8radix: nope, but you can if you like
06:29:14 <sbp> it's very easy
06:29:17 <sbp> add this to the top of the file:
06:29:21 <sbp> from tools import deprecated
06:29:26 <sbp> then put this above the function:
06:29:28 <sbp> @deprecated
06:29:39 <sbp> and if it uses group(1), change that to group(2)
06:29:40 <sbp> done
06:35:00 *** nsh_ (n=nsh@d85-194-245-82.cust.wlannet.com) has joined #swhack
06:35:19 <sbp> !
06:35:22 <sbp> Garnsley hoal!
06:35:32 <sbp> #@^&
06:35:35 <sbp> Barnsley scored
06:40:35 <nsh_> .wik FAI
06:40:35 <phenny> "Fatal Accident Inquiry, a Scottish legal aspect, used when a fatal accident has occurred." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAI
06:40:43 <nsh_> .wik UFAI
06:40:44 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "UFAI".
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06:44:10 <cr`x> I think cricket should be seeing a renaissance in this modern age
06:44:22 <cr`x> It is a game more perfectly suited to never have one's full attention devoted to it.
06:44:25 <nsh_> (un)friendly artificial intelligence
06:44:46 *** nsh has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
06:44:52 *** nsh_ is now known as nsh
06:48:53 <nsh> .w framster
06:48:54 <phenny> I couldn't find 'framster' in WordNet.
06:49:10 <cthompson> .w cromulent
06:49:11 <phenny> I couldn't find 'cromulent' in WordNet.
06:49:15 <cthompson> FAIL
06:50:19 <nslater> .wik cromulent
06:50:20 <phenny> "'Lisa the Iconoclast' is the sixteenth episode of The Simpsons' seventh season, and is probably the most important episode for Jebediah Springfield since 'The Telltale Head'." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromulent
06:50:36 <cthompson> a noble spirit embiggens us all
06:51:22 * nsh wonders why someone decided that the introductary sentence required a mention of how the episode stands in the list of importance to a fictional character from the show
06:52:03 <cthompson> the biggest strength of wikipedia is that anyone can edit pages
06:52:12 <cthompson> the biggest weakness of wikipedia is that anyone can edit pages
06:56:30 <cr`x> There is an insidiously pro-Jebediah Springfield cabal of editors who are systematically working to undermine Wikipedia as a method to spread their propaganda.
06:57:05 <cthompson> cr`x, they're all from shelbyville
06:58:08 <nsh> hrmm
06:58:35 <nsh> this overcomingbias blog
06:58:58 <nsh> tastes faily
06:59:21 <nsh> but it has some nice sauce on bits of it
07:00:11 <nsh> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/reject-random-b.html
07:00:30 <nsh> this post especially has the acrid flavour of nuubarb
07:03:30 <sbp> Barnsley have knocked Chelsea out
07:04:20 * nsh pictures massive parallel hockey-style fight
07:04:31 <nsh> or, better
07:04:51 <nsh> each team acrobatically assembles into a leviathon-type formation
07:05:06 <nsh> and they begin fighting man-pyramid-mecha stylee
07:07:25 <nsh> .gs * bedfellows
07:07:26 <phenny> * bedfellows: strange (54), strange space (2), unfortunate, stranger, sinister, seed strange, mostly strange, imdb strange, for story strange, estranged, dark, bizarre, bipartisan
07:07:40 <cthompson> unfortunate bedfellows
07:07:41 <cthompson> been there
07:08:13 <cthompson> of course, everyone experiments in college
07:08:20 <nsh> fortune fed bellows would be cool
07:11:28 * nsh frowns
07:11:28 <nsh> there's a university of oxford badge on this blog
07:11:56 *** sbp changed the topic to: "balls deep awesome"
07:11:56 <nsh> ugh
07:12:23 <nsh> "tenured professor" just lost another seven esteem echelons
07:12:56 <nsh> .ety echelon
07:12:57 <phenny> "1796, from Fr. échelon 'level, echelon,' lit. 'rung of a ladder,' from O.Fr. eschelon, from eschiele 'ladder,' from L.L. scala 'stair, slope,' from L. scalæ (pl.) 'ladder, steps.' Originally 'step-like arrangement of troops,' sense of 'level, subdivision' is from WWI." - http://etymonline.com/?term=echelon
07:15:55 *** chris2 has quit ("Leaving")
07:20:39 * nsh needs to apply for a visa to russia
07:23:09 <sbp> K9 is playing the Weakest Link
07:23:11 <sbp> and doing quite well so far
07:23:15 <cr`x> русский
07:23:31 <sbp> Pisskii to you too
07:23:41 <cr`x> all told, i'm not a huge fan of cyrillic
07:23:44 <cr`x> i think greek is much nicer
07:23:47 <sbp> me neither
07:23:52 <sbp> nah, Greek is... hmm
07:23:55 <sbp> maybe not worse
07:25:36 <cr`x> Καφενέ!
07:25:54 <sbp> poor K9
07:26:00 <cr`x> is K9 a dog?
07:26:09 <sbp> yeah
07:26:24 <cr`x> I don't imagine a dog could be that good at any quiz show.
07:28:14 <sbp> hope Arnia's watching this. it's actually pretty good
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07:46:50 <cr`x> JÅ
07:46:57 <cr`x> Ȝå
07:47:11 <cr`x> ȜȝȜȝȜȝȜȝ
07:47:48 <_bjoern> .gs I'm a doctor, not *
07:47:48 <phenny> I'm a doctor, not *: a bricklayer (8), a (8), otherwise specified (2), captain obvious (2), a doorstop (2), ¯ 13 ¯wbr¼«¼¯¤, verified -- 0116, space junk, some pansy, some kind, some ips, santa claus, p
07:47:54 <_bjoern> .gs I'm a doctor, not a *
07:47:55 <phenny> I'm a doctor, not a *: lawyer (4), nightlight (3), mechanic (3), magician (3), insert (3), botanist (3), scriptwriter (2), prostitute (2), priest (2), prehistoric (2), mathematician (2), forklift (2), fi
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07:48:59 <cr`x> o.o
07:49:19 <cr`x> i am seeing phenny respond before björn asks the question. that's fuckt.
07:50:00 <sdkay> Heh, sweet.
07:51:45 *** est (n=est@adsl-71-142-71-85.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack
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07:53:41 <_bjoern> .comp "suicide booth" "agony booth"
07:53:43 <phenny> "agony booth" (29,200), "suicide booth" (18,200)
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07:55:50 *** nsh_ is now known as nsh
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08:05:45 <_bjoern> .gs your * is speaking to you
08:05:45 <phenny> your * is speaking to you: mother (5), spouse (3), soul (3), president (3), intuition (3), conscience (3), spirit (2), prospect (2), partner (2), husband (2), higher self (2), gut (2), father (2), dog (2), c
08:05:56 *** curler is now known as ja
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08:08:10 *** ja has quit ("leaving")
08:10:07 <nsh> sbp: http://www.zenatode.org.uk/ian/misc/omphalos.xhtml
08:10:29 <nsh> (read from bottom up)
08:11:12 <sbp> awesome
08:11:18 <sbp> yeah, I slowly figured that out myself. heh
08:11:54 <cthompson> Every time you say "accretive," a douchebag gets his wings.
08:13:54 <nslater> Anyone remember when nsh said "ah, the good ol' wind-up chalky toasdstool is back"?
08:14:38 <_bjoern> Yes, and it wasn't funny at all.
08:15:52 <sbp> _bjoern's just standing up for Monty
08:15:53 <Monty> dahut aint here
08:15:53 <nsh> memeforcing will not be tolerated
08:16:02 <nsh> dahut, you here or not?
08:16:02 <sbp> yes he is!
08:16:11 <sbp> he might not be speaking, but he's here
08:16:17 <_bjoern> paper
08:16:17 <Monty> I chose stone - You win :(
08:16:18 <dahut> I had rock, _bjoern wins.
08:16:26 <sbp> man, _bjoern pwnz
08:16:32 <nsh> acronym hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
08:16:55 <_bjoern> Xtr4l33t
08:17:00 * nslater puts his meme back on the self for future usage
08:17:25 <sbp> personally I'm trying to instill "probable biscuits"
08:17:26 <cr`x> i really, really don't get the toadstool meme
08:17:31 <sbp> slowly, slowly though
08:17:36 <sbp> so that nsh doesn't notice and cry wolf
08:17:45 <sbp> though I have to admit that I have probably fucked it up now by going all meta
08:17:52 <sbp> that's the problem with meta. you just can't avoid it
08:18:00 <nslater> cr`x: nsh said it one day with no explanation, then quit swhack
08:18:04 * sbp shakes fist at meta
08:18:08 <nslater> cr`x: which was enough to put me into tears
08:18:18 <_bjoern> TO DESTROY META, ZOOM IN
08:18:19 <nslater> cr`x: then sbp changed the topic and i actually cried with laughter
08:18:39 <nslater> s/enough/almost enough/
08:19:06 <nslater> cr`x: also, it's toasdtool :p
08:19:14 <cr`x> oh. Well… fair enough.
08:19:19 <cr`x> At least there's nothing to get.
08:19:20 *** Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
08:19:34 <nslater> cr`x: nothing apart from sublime absurdity
08:19:39 *** Morbus (n=morbus@c-24-34-64-110.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
08:19:40 <sbp> cr`x: nsh made nslater cry. I think this is an event worth commemorating once in a while
08:20:00 <cr`x> I think I still get nsh and nslater mixed up :/
08:20:12 <nslater> .swhack toasdtool
08:20:20 <sbp> nsh = provider of salmiakki, sayer of witticisms
08:20:28 <nsh> now would be a bad time to reveal true identities
08:20:31 <sbp> nslater = porter of phenny, defender of free software
08:20:32 <nslater> i will probably get the giggles seing the original logs, it really is that powerful
08:20:35 <phenny> nslater: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-05#T05-08-42
08:20:42 <sbp> no, wait! open source. free software?
08:20:48 <sbp> one of those things, anyway. doesn't matter which
08:20:49 <cr`x> FOSS.
08:20:53 <nsh> trebor softwares
08:20:58 <nsh> twice as minty
08:21:02 <cr`x> free as in anarchism
08:21:03 * nslater puts on his gnu hat and beard and weilds the sword of freedom
08:21:07 <sbp> Treeebot mints are a minty bit stronger
08:21:14 <sbp> Stick 'em up yer bum and they'll last a bit longer
08:21:17 <cr`x> i just amuse myself by parsing the name as 'ns later'
08:21:23 <sbp> (I'm also going to let the typo stand)
08:21:28 <nsh> it isn't?
08:21:54 <cr`x> It... might not be.
08:21:57 <nslater> omg lol
08:21:59 <nslater> cr`x: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-04#T04-33-44
08:22:18 <nsh> ns'later > n'slater any day of week
08:23:08 <sbp> nsh: so is it ns'h or n'sh?
08:23:13 <cr`x> Good Old Wind Up Chalky Toasdstool.
08:23:15 <nsh> nsh isn't voiced.
08:23:16 * cr`x repeats to self.
08:23:28 <nsh> it's a silent syllable
08:23:29 <sbp> fine, fine...
08:23:37 <nsh> and it'll stay silent if it knows what's good for it
08:23:39 <sbp> nsh: so *now* is it ns'h or n'sh?
08:23:44 <nslater> cr`x: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-04#T04-37-22
08:23:47 <nsh> eek, i've been anti-Smithed
08:23:50 * cr`x set mode +v nsh
08:23:54 <nslater> cr`x: it seems i waqs laughing for a solid 4 minutes, thats quite a record
08:24:13 * sbp watches Crufts
08:24:19 <sbp> lots of pretty dogs
08:24:31 <cr`x> It also seems I was there, even; I just didn't understand what was happening
08:24:32 <nsh> {"!"}kolera
08:24:33 * cr`x still don't
08:25:49 <cr`x> bet you wish you had kicked her dog, eh?
08:25:54 <cr`x> er
08:26:05 <cr`x> yeah, THAT doesn't make any sense in the logs
08:26:07 * nsh snickers
08:26:17 <nsh> LOGS LOG ALL CONVERSATION
08:26:27 <sbp> that's alright, fits perfectly for you
08:26:31 <nslater> YOU'VE EXPOSED ME AND MY DOG KICKING HABBITS!
08:26:34 <cr`x> haha oh I see
08:26:41 <cr`x> Fits my emerging profile as a clueless american?
08:27:16 <nsh> Twe, do you have anything emerging?
08:27:26 <sbp> sure, just flip in the odd off-the-cuff remark about Republican overlording and it'll all be nice and consistent
08:27:26 <twe> nsh: What is an emerging field of discourse is going to have you.
08:27:42 <cr`x> I am very much a citizen of the world, you know
08:27:46 <cr`x> I've been to Europe and everything
08:28:05 <sbp> England doesn't count, we're too Americanised now
08:28:11 <cr`x> Oh I know
08:28:15 <cr`x> I meant THE CONTINENT
08:28:16 * sdkay is a citizen of The Democratic Republic of The Internets
08:28:19 <sbp> you have to go to a country without a McDonalds
08:28:21 <cr`x> Never been to your isles actually
08:28:25 <nslater> you mean Americanized?
08:28:33 <sbp> no, I'm resisting
08:28:46 <cr`x> I may or may not want to note, by the way, that the font I have settled on is Arno Pro
08:28:47 <sbp> and doing a bloody good job! sometimes
08:28:51 <nslater> i staunchly write all my software in en_GB as a political statement
08:28:54 <sbp> .g Arno Pro
08:28:54 <cr`x> not my very first choice, design-wise, but it's got yoghs
08:28:55 <phenny> sbp: http://www.adobe.com/type/browser/landing/arno/arno.html
08:29:03 <cr`x> ȝȜȝȜȝȜ
08:29:07 * cr`x ȝȜȝȜȝȜ
08:29:14 <cr`x> even wiggly ones.
08:29:19 <sbp> something I just noticed about the ladies on Crufts
08:29:19 <nsh> we'll start using your random letter substitutions when you start pronouncing those letters correctly
08:29:25 <sbp> they all have impeccable shoes
08:29:38 <nslater> women in gernal have impeccable shoes, at least on telly
08:29:50 <nslater> ive always held that you can tell a lot about a person from the shoes
08:30:11 <nslater> i judge people on choice of footware, i readily admit
08:30:21 *** nsh has parted #swhack ()
08:30:21 *** nsh (n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh) has joined #swhack
08:30:36 <sbp> cr`x: ezhes too?
08:31:34 <sbp> Halogen Lights: heh
08:31:35 <cr`x> Hm, dunno. I don't think about those as much, since they're so ahistorical and all
08:31:44 * cr`x looksitup
08:33:18 <cr`x> It does not have the Ezh, no; though the ones that I do are the motleyest crüe
08:33:27 <cr`x> ƷȜ
08:34:44 <cr`x> nslater: What is the general layout of your footware judgments?
08:35:03 <nslater> cr`x: they are too complex to provide summary
08:35:11 <cr`x> Gosh.
08:35:17 <nslater> cr`x: you are free to question me about specific cases
08:35:27 <cr`x> Jump boots?
08:35:53 * sdkay wears high heels just to throw nslater off
08:36:31 <nslater> tbh, i think i will withold comment, except to say that i do tend to make snap judgements based on footware alone
08:36:45 <nslater> you can see a guy in a really nice suite, but his shoes will often tell another story
08:36:48 * nslater laughs
08:37:33 * nslater curses his spelling
08:37:33 <sbp> http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/mahmahbaeh/drawings/eeeep.jpg
08:38:32 * nslater puts on his socks and sandals and goes to the shop
08:38:39 *** libby (n=libby@77-101-209-30.cable.ubr04.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
08:38:39 <Monty> Thank goodness, libby is back!
08:39:50 <nsh> hrmm
08:39:59 <sbp> any ideas?
08:40:05 <nsh> i should read more Robert Wilson
08:40:15 <sbp> looks Mexicanesque
08:40:15 <cr`x> I can say for sure that you needn't, nsh
08:40:22 <sdkay> Is it a map?
08:40:22 <sbp> .wik Robert Wilson
08:40:23 <cr`x> As long as you are past the age of 15
08:40:23 <phenny> "Robert J Wilson (Born 1988), Professional British actor and musician in local band 'The Craft'" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wilson
08:40:33 <nsh> it never occurred to me that the militant green/animal rights factions might be the consequence of agents provocateur
08:40:39 <nsh> *(be in part)
08:40:40 <sbp> might be
08:40:44 <cr`x> .wik robert anton wilson
08:40:46 <phenny> "Robert Anton Wilson or RAW (born Robert Edward Wilson, January 18, 1932 – January 11, 2007) was a prolific American novelist, essayist, philosopher, psychologist, futurologist, libertarian, and conspiracy theory researcher." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Anton_Wilson
08:40:46 <sbp> not sure if there's any treasure though
08:40:49 <nsh> Robert Anton Wilson, that is
08:41:14 <nsh> i just always assumed that some activists were nutters
08:41:26 <nsh> and they nutterised other people
08:42:07 <cr`x> I must confess I believe that to be an utterly reasonable assumption in the proportion of cases so overwhelming that its counterexamples are statistically insignificant
08:42:21 <nsh> well
08:42:30 <nsh> when you push a rock down a hill
08:42:32 *** tav (n=tav@91.84.103.124) has joined #swhack
08:42:44 <sdkay> You could kill someone?
08:42:49 <nsh> at all stages after the push it's patently obvious that the rock is going down the hill because it has going-down-hill momentum
08:42:56 <nsh> an inherent feature of that rock
08:43:00 <_bjoern> .wik Metahumor
08:43:00 <phenny> "Meta-joke refers to three somewhat different, but related categories: 'self-referential jokes', 'jokes about jokes' (see meta-) also known as metahumor, and 'joke templates'.[citation needed]|" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metahumor
08:43:11 <cr`x> I also must confess I fail to see the relevance of our downhill rock
08:43:15 <nsh> but the push need only be tiny
08:43:18 <sbp> .gc mosbunall
08:43:19 <phenny> mosbunall: 470
08:43:25 <sdkay> To kill someone, you mean?
08:43:35 <cr`x> Still not getting you.
08:43:39 <cr`x> I have started drinking, though.
08:43:41 <sbp> nsh: Charles Fort
08:43:49 <sdkay> cr`x: He's a murderer.
08:43:55 <nsh> sbp: Henry Castle
08:43:55 <cr`x> Charles Fort!?
08:43:56 <sbp> recipe: buy the Complete Works, read them, be happy
08:44:02 * nsh smiles
08:44:10 <nsh> (i though we were playing a name game)
08:44:21 <cr`x> Peter Kingdom!
08:44:24 <nsh> cr`x: rock on the top of a hill is just waiting to start rolling down
08:44:25 <sbp> Henry Castle would have been a good move
08:44:27 <nsh> but it still needs a push
08:44:42 <cr`x> I saw Fay Grimm. It was pretty wretched.
08:45:17 <nsh> sbp, good rook development, anyway
08:45:25 <sbp> yeah
08:45:28 <sbp> O-O-O
08:45:28 <cr`x> Nsh, but if I'm reading you right here, your analogy only makes sense if no one in the history of animal lib/env. activism had ever thought about blowing something up until some undercover fed did it first.
