2008-03-07 Swhack IRC Log

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00:12:15 <sr> sbp, is there any chatlog where you discuss how you ended with that conclusion about the semweb?
00:12:25 <sbp> sr: yes, hang on a moment
00:12:57 <sbp> sr: http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-03-07.html#T15-03-49
00:13:03 <sbp> a warning though: it's many, many pages of logs
00:13:14 <sbp> and it doesn't cover the whole rationale. just bits of it
00:13:29 <sbp> I'm planning on doing a follow-up article
00:13:39 <sbp> you're not the only person to have asked this... :-)
00:15:05 <sr> eh :) I'll wait for the follow-up then
00:15:35 <sr> I am asking because IMO the process is far more interesting than the conclusion
00:15:47 <sbp> good point
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00:29:22 <cre8radix> re:hi
00:29:50 <sbp> yo cre8radix
00:31:32 <cre8radix> hey sbp
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00:55:24 <xover> sbp: Careful. It's a trap.
00:57:12 <sbp> nah, they won't convince me
00:57:18 <sbp> the force is too strong
00:57:31 <sbp> once the aura of self-deception is stripped, it's gone, I hope
00:57:57 <sbp> the thing that really did it was considering whether it's possibly to spin the self-deception to be productive
00:58:09 <xover> Attrition is a valid tactic.
00:58:13 <sbp> in other words, whether just working on specifications for the sake of specifications could amount to anything interesting and useful
00:58:31 <sbp> attrition doesn't work on the arrogant
00:58:41 <sbp> I know how to leverage my weakness to be strengths from time to time... :-)
00:58:50 <sbp> pitting them against Semantic Web developers = ftw
00:59:23 <sbp> I'm pretty sure I know better than all the other SW, uppercase, developers
00:59:28 <sbp> I've been through it all and come out the other side
00:59:54 <sbp> now I'm looking back and it and going "oh"
01:00:31 <sbp> here, I'll send you a draft of this article
01:00:59 <sbp> sent
01:01:22 * xover feels compelled to point out that “Arogance” is what got you embroiled in SW™ in the first place, but refrains as a matter of expediency…
01:03:11 * MoiraA gives up on today
01:03:14 <MoiraA> gives in
01:03:16 <MoiraA> surrenders
01:03:22 <MoiraA> today has won the battle
01:03:24 <MoiraA> but not the war
01:03:35 <MoiraA> sunday you have met your match
01:03:53 <xover> A sentence with “clueless” and a named subject is unnecessary to get the point across.
01:04:22 <xover> Unless your point /is/ to rag on the subject in question.
01:05:16 * sbp at the sentence
01:05:21 <sbp> yeah, I'm just ragging on Shirky
01:05:22 <sbp> heh
01:05:35 <sbp> +verb=looks
01:05:52 <sbp> MoiraA: it's not even half one yet!
01:06:16 <MoiraA> don't remind me
01:06:24 <MoiraA> the day has expanded
01:06:30 <MoiraA> grown in size
01:06:49 <sbp> xover: the subtext is that all Semantic Web developers hate Clay Shirky
01:06:54 <sbp> because of the adjectives that I listed
01:07:04 <sbp> so it's a way of striking up a knowing, nod-wink, rapport
01:07:28 * sbp will link that part of the article to here... :-)
01:07:51 <xover> At the expense of undermining your credibility by employing the rethorical technique of an ad hominem attack.
01:08:15 <sbp> yes, but it's one that nobody who matters will care about
01:08:23 * xover Does Not Approve Of This Message™…
01:08:32 <sbp> aw... I wanna ad hominem
01:08:35 <sbp> fuckin' hell
01:08:39 <sbp> let me have my fun!
01:08:57 <xover> You want to rag on Shirky? Address him directly.
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01:08:58 * sbp grumbles, removes the ad hominem
01:09:17 <sbp> what, send him an email you mean?
01:09:33 <sbp> it's not worth it, he's ridiculous
01:09:43 <sbp> he's the Winer of the Semantic Web world
01:09:50 <sbp> functionally, I mean
01:10:04 <sbp> he's ceased to become a person, and it used as an archetype
01:10:09 <sbp> s/it used/is used/
01:10:19 <sbp> quite a useful archetype, too
01:10:22 <MoiraA> my channel has some stupid users
01:10:30 <MoiraA> this guy is unbelievable
01:10:33 <xover> No, I mean your voice in the essay addresses a group of people, but puts down Shirkey in an aside.
01:10:36 <MoiraA> never mind
01:10:39 <MoiraA> my problem
01:10:50 <sbp> aha
01:10:56 <xover> You're stylistically talking about him behind his back.
01:10:56 <sbp> xover: how's this? “I didn't want to turn into merely a griping and unconstructive commentator, which is what happens when you only concentrate on the melancholy aspects of something like this.”
01:11:09 <sbp> s/happens/can happen/
01:11:09 <xover> Excellent.
01:11:26 <xover> Says the same, avoids the ad hominem.
01:12:01 <sbp> can I at least link "unconstructive commentator" to http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-07#T01-06-49 ?
01:12:13 <sbp> so that people can read down to here to understand a bit more of the subtext...
01:12:30 <xover> If you absolutely need to invoke a named subject, change the voice of the piece to adress that subject directly.
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01:13:13 <sbp> I don't, I just wanted to have a bit of fun
01:13:46 * xover puts on his “Now behave young man!” face and Frowns™ at sbp…
01:13:56 <sbp> I'll be good
01:14:08 <sbp> (but I will link to these logs... :-)
01:14:30 <sbp> (hellos, Whits readers, if you got this far. give yourself a cookie)
01:15:31 <sbp> is the rest okay?
01:15:42 <sbp> I've changed a few things. will post unless there's some other major hurdle
01:16:05 <sbp> don't want to labour it too much; just that people deserved (or at least requested en masse) this explanation
01:17:09 <xover> I don't get the strong Prescriptist vs. Descriptist message there that is core to me, but…
01:17:40 <sbp> I could get into that, but I could get into lots of other things too
01:17:51 <sbp> the DIG meeting agendæ being private, for example
01:18:03 <sbp> how ridiculous for a group that's supposed to be working on granular privacy!
01:18:09 <sbp> they haven't got a clue. they're not helping themselves
01:18:22 <xover> And I think you're too forgiving of the Models™ generated in that fashion, given there is no way to know if they actually apply to anything once exposed to Real Life™.
01:18:28 <sbp> but cf. unconstructive commentator...
01:18:37 <sbp> forgiving?!
01:18:48 <xover> You end up saying the models don't need to be thrown away.
01:18:49 <sbp> did I not use the word "pigfuckingly" enough or something?
01:18:56 <sbp> do I? sheesh
01:18:59 <sbp> what gives that impression?
01:19:02 <xover> Only the specific wankery over RDF qua RDF.
01:19:18 <sbp> no, I think RDF in total should be discarded. the whole layer stack
01:19:27 <sbp> man, I'd better reiterate that if that wasn't clear
01:19:47 <MoiraA> clear as mud sbp
01:21:36 <sbp> [[[
01:21:36 <sbp> It's not prudent, perhaps even not moral if that doesn't sound too melodramatic, to work on RDF, OWL, SPARQL, RIF, the broken ideas of {distributed trust http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-03-07.html#T15-42-31}, CWM, Tabulator, Dublin Core, FOAF, SIOC, and all of these kinds of things.
01:21:37 <sbp> ]]]
01:21:42 <sbp> I've added that. is that clear enough?
01:21:49 <sbp> (or does it need a "pigfuckingly"? :-)
01:22:08 <sbp> s/all of/any of/
01:22:11 <xover> It may, indeed, need a pigfuckingly.
01:22:16 <sbp> hehe
01:23:25 <xover> Whenever I even try to glance in the vague direction of anything SemWeb-y, my immediate impression is “crazy”; and I mean the batshit bugfuck kind of crazy.
01:26:38 <sbp> you pick up a lot of things on the periphery that are interesting
01:26:45 <kpreid> PERIPHERY!
01:26:45 <phenny> kpreid: 11:41Z <sbp> tell kpreid “07:50:31 <kpreid> sbp: does phenny fork by itself at all?” — sorry, I missed this question. she does, yes, thanks to the xover-hack for making threads KeyboardInterruptable
01:26:51 <sbp> I'd figured until now that you could retain the core whilst emphasizing the periphery
01:27:01 <sbp> but you can't. you have to abandon the core to save the periphery, I think
01:27:18 * sbp waves to kpreid
01:27:24 <sbp> YO MANG
01:28:38 <kpreid> mange? mangle? manganese? mangrove? mango?
01:29:20 <sbp> I've always like the word managanese
01:29:24 <sbp> er, manganese
01:29:30 <sbp> liked it tho it cannote be spelled
01:29:56 <MoiraA> you guys are mad mad mad
01:30:05 <MoiraA> where did you get pigfuckingly from?
01:30:17 <kpreid> http://theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Elements/025/index.s7.html
01:30:49 <sbp> MoiraA: it was the simple process of adding pigfucker, a common noun, to the adverbial suffix -ly
01:30:55 <MoiraA> I like it
01:31:17 <sbp> actually the gerund pigfucking, I suppose. pigfucker is the lemma in my mind
01:32:39 <sbp> alright, postin' this, sans pigfuckingly
01:33:44 <sbp> .title http://inamidst.com/whits/2008/ditching
01:33:45 <phenny> sbp: Ditching the Semantic Web?
01:33:55 <sbp> reviews within an hour would be highly appreciated
01:34:28 <sbp> heh, typo in the second paragraph
01:35:17 <sbp> fixed
01:36:29 <MoiraA> really?
01:36:31 <xover> Inbred can be augmented or replaced by Incestous, depending on taste.
01:36:32 <MoiraA> I'll read it
01:36:50 <MoiraA> in return you can have my user who is making a dog's breakfast out of connecting to a bouncer
01:36:56 <sbp> s/happened/happen/
01:37:26 <xover> “The problem” might be replaced with “The Fallacy”, again depending on taste.
01:37:51 <sbp> will stick with problem I think. trying to be vaguely conversational
01:37:58 <sbp> because it's such a boring subject
01:38:02 <MoiraA> hah
01:38:06 <MoiraA> better than what I have
01:38:06 <xover> Oh, nevermind. You use “fallacy” in the next sentence (ish).
01:39:46 <sbp> yeah, that too
01:40:29 <xover> Ugh. The dangers of writing too much Python.
01:40:51 <xover> You end up inserting parentheticals into your prose, without the actual parenthesis.
01:41:14 <sbp> where?
01:41:21 <xover> moral
01:41:22 <sbp> python has parens!
01:41:52 <xover> But your parentheticals do not. I find the relationship to be dangerously causal.
01:41:58 <sbp> nah, would sound odd with parens in there I think
01:42:08 <sbp> hmm
01:42:14 <sbp> actually, perhaps it would look okay
01:43:05 <xover> Hmm. Also. A Use Case is still not a Use; it's still off in theory with no practical application -land.
01:43:19 <sbp> xover: fixed the parens
01:43:31 <sbp> well when I say use case I really mean use
01:43:40 <xover> Right. Do they?
01:43:42 <sbp> when I say use, computer scientists see a dummy noun
01:43:48 <sbp> so can't win either way
01:45:20 <xover> That thrid last paragraph excuses SW. Of course there are use cases for it; you just pointed out a whole bunch of them in the previous article, and you didn't even, by your own admission, have to look very hard.
01:45:57 <sbp> well if that's a valid excuse then it's a valid excuse
01:46:07 <sbp> it's not an excuse for the technologies though
01:46:11 <sbp> which is the whole point
01:46:15 <sbp> because the technologies don't help
01:46:31 <xover> Yeah, but you don't say that in this article.
01:46:42 <sbp> it was in the Ambient Information one
01:46:43 <xover> At least not in sufficient proximity to that paragraph.
01:47:07 <sbp> it was, moreover, the whole *thesis* of Ambient Information...
01:48:02 * sbp is admittedly trying to avoid doing further editing at this point too... :-)
01:48:15 <xover> Are you under the impression I am commenting on your reasoning, as opposed to your “presentation”, perhaps? :-)
01:48:23 <sbp> hehe
01:48:33 <sbp> I could always improve my presentation
01:48:44 <sbp> one really big thing to do in that regard might be to show semantic-web@w3 this
01:48:53 <sbp> and then argue the point strongly on the mailing list
01:49:25 <xover> Well, it might be clear enough if read with an actually open mind; if the readers wants to understand rather then find some quibble to invalidate it.
01:49:34 <sbp> yeah
01:49:45 <sbp> the counter-argument for bringing it to semantic-web is that it is the Land of Quibbles
01:52:00 *** therethinker (i=4c76cb46@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1cd5f6346b6d4dfe) has joined #swhack
01:52:11 <therethinker> Hey!
01:52:17 <xover> In any case, it looks good.
01:52:22 <sbp> howdy twootman
01:52:24 <sbp> thanks
01:52:30 <sbp> let's hope it actually achieves something, anything
01:52:32 <xover> .tw therethinker is here!
01:52:39 <sbp> at least it's a declaration of how things are
01:52:54 <therethinker> You do know that twoot isn't here...
01:53:01 * xover excuses himself to go fooding…
01:53:23 <sbp> what, you mean .tw is unnatural syntax?
01:53:29 <sbp> c'ya xover. thanks for the help!
01:53:35 <therethinker> why, is it?
01:53:45 <sbp> well did you notice an irregularity with xover's line?
01:53:53 <therethinker> no...
01:54:02 <xover> You should make it ".twit".
01:54:05 <therethinker> Oh
01:54:06 <sbp> why'd you point out that twoot isn't here then? :-)
01:54:22 <therethinker> There's several commands .twitter works too
01:54:33 <sbp> .twankee
01:54:40 <therethinker> Ooh, I get it
01:54:40 <sbp> .twixt
01:54:46 * therethinker slaps self
01:54:51 <sbp> .twyndyllyngs
01:56:11 <therethinker> Anyway, I'm trying to go social
01:56:18 <therethinker> I've tried before, and failed
01:56:21 <sbp> is that anything like going postal?
01:56:39 <sbp> what does it mean to go social?
01:56:42 <sbp> is going social a good thing?
01:56:47 <therethinker> sort of, but it doesn't require bubble wrap
01:56:47 <sbp> what compelled you to go social?
01:57:03 <therethinker> Yes, dunno
01:57:04 <sbp> .wik Go postal
01:57:05 <phenny> "Going postal is an American English slang term, used as a verb meaning to suddenly become extremely and uncontrollably angry, possibly to the point of violence." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_postal
01:57:20 <therethinker> Wow, didn't know that
01:57:25 *** laplink (n=link@193.157.66.227) has joined #swhack
01:57:49 <therethinker> Speak of the devil, it's laplink!
01:59:57 <sbp> yeah Monty, announce people more! you punctilative pantrybox of perfidinous porkings, pronkings, and pornkings
01:59:57 <Monty> hmm
02:00:08 <sbp> DO'T
02:00:34 <therethinker> porkings, promkings, and pornkings, interesting
02:00:48 <sbp> *pronkings*
02:00:56 <sbp> to pronk; it's a verb
02:02:23 <MoiraA> pronk? wonderful
02:02:27 <MoiraA> I could pronk kirkus
02:02:31 <MoiraA> his nick is in use
02:02:34 <therethinker> Oh
02:02:36 <MoiraA> yes because he's bloody using it
02:02:41 <MoiraA> people!
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02:02:44 <sbp> you could if it were a transitive verb
02:02:46 <therethinker> monsters!
02:02:48 <sbp> sadly it is not
02:02:52 <therethinker> .wik pronk
02:02:53 <phenny> "Pronking, or 'stotting', a behavior of gazelles involving leaping straight up during pursuit by a predator" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronk
02:03:25 <therethinker> so it doesn't take a D.O....
02:03:46 <sbp> 06:46:07 <sbp> cthompson: in college we had this book that had the craziest fucking science stuff in it, you know how science books always are, and one of the pictures was of this animal jumping and the caption was "A pronking springbok."
02:03:47 <sbp> 06:46:12 <sbp> you just don't forget that
02:03:47 <sbp> 06:46:21 <cthompson> excellent
02:03:51 <sbp> - http://swhack.com/logs/2008-02-26#T06-46-07
02:04:04 <therethinker> awesome
02:07:18 * sbp spots another typo in "ditching"
02:07:42 <therethinker> .calc 8GB / 200bytes
02:07:43 <phenny> 8GB / 200bytes = 8/25 (exactly 0.32) bit (information) frink.expr.BasicDateFormatterExpression()
02:07:53 <therethinker> err... what?
02:08:09 <therethinker> .calc 8GB in bytes
02:08:10 <phenny> 8GB in bytes = 8 frink.expr.BasicDateFormatterExpression() -> 8 bit (information) bytes
02:08:56 <therethinker> Hmm
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02:12:34 <sbp> use .c already
02:12:37 <sbp> .c 8GB in bytes
02:12:38 <phenny> 8 gigabytes = 8 589 934 592 bytes
02:12:42 <sbp> .c 8GB / 200 bytes
02:12:43 <phenny> (8 gigabytes) / (200 bytes) = 42 949 673
02:17:39 <therethinker> How was I supposed to know?
02:19:00 <therethinker> .c 1 ream
02:19:01 <phenny> therethinker: Sorry, no result.
02:20:13 <MoiraA> sbp this kirkus is a challenge big time
02:20:30 <MoiraA> can I help him make his nick stay offline until he's online
02:20:31 <MoiraA> really
02:23:11 <sbp> hmm?
02:23:12 <therethinker> .c 30 GBP in USD
02:23:12 <phenny> 30 British pounds = 59.95500 U.S. dollars
02:23:41 <therethinker> .c 11mm x 15mm in sq in
02:23:42 <phenny> (11 mm) x 15 mm = 0.255750512 sq in
02:24:26 <therethinker> .c 93.5 / 0.25575
02:24:27 <phenny> 93.5 / 0.25575 = 365.591398
02:24:51 <MoiraA> sbp I figure he's a troll
02:24:54 <MoiraA> he's unreal
02:25:09 <MoiraA> on the one hand clueless, then suddenly reveals that he actually knows more than he's letting on
02:25:16 <MoiraA> I think he's playing with us
02:25:23 <therethinker> .c 183 * 480
02:25:23 <phenny> 183 * 480 = 87 840
02:25:42 <therethinker> .c 43000000 / 87840
02:25:42 <phenny> 43 000 000 / 87 840 = 489.526412
02:26:12 <therethinker> .c 489.5 / 20
02:26:13 <phenny> 489.5 / 20 = 24.47500
02:26:50 <nslater> sbp: how hard would it be to get phenny to periodically watch a file and send notices to channel?
02:27:05 <nslater> sbp: in a similar vein to your referer bot
02:27:23 <therethinker> nslater: I'd take a hint from shellbot, not phenny
02:27:28 <therethinker> using tail
02:27:36 <nslater> therethinker: sorry, you lost me
02:27:43 <laplink> Use fam.
02:28:31 <MoiraA> I seem to attract these freaks like a magnet
02:28:52 <nslater> it's not the periodic watching that seems hard, it's the getting phenny to do something external to watching a channel
02:28:54 <therethinker> Wow, a 8GB microSD card holds 43,000,000 times more data than an equal amount of paper, and is 24 times more cost-efficient than paper
02:29:03 <therethinker> nslater: thread? :P
02:29:13 <therethinker> burn some CPU cycles
02:29:15 <nslater> therethinker: again, you lost me
02:32:41 <sbp> nslater: I don't know. you could use the refererbot's code
02:34:46 <nslater> sbp: sure, im interested in combining the functionality, ill let you know if i ever make any progress
02:40:30 <sbp> thankies
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02:46:16 <sbp> heh: http://www.leicestergalleries.com/provenart/dealer_stock_details.cgi?d_id=&a_id=12053
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02:47:18 <sbp> MoiraA: I tend to just kick 'em
02:47:24 <sbp> no scruples or messing around
02:47:52 <MoiraA> he has to be trolling
02:47:55 <MoiraA> he's unreal
02:48:02 <MoiraA> ive moved on
02:48:10 <MoiraA> decided to unravel flashfxp
02:48:15 <MoiraA> downloading a debugger
02:48:28 <MoiraA> I want to take out its timer, however just for fun
02:48:30 <MoiraA> I will buy it
02:49:07 <MoiraA> just want to see if I can reverse engineer it with XV1 2.51
02:49:28 <MoiraA> windows is a pain in the arse
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03:01:27 <MoiraA> sbp can I ask you something?
03:01:44 <MoiraA> I have a request from someone wanting to pay a programmer to build him a suduko game in python
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03:01:54 <MoiraA> is that a difficult task, time consuming, or easy
03:02:02 <sbp> I think it's fairly easy
03:02:05 <sbp> I once looked into it
03:02:05 <MoiraA> ok
03:02:20 <MoiraA> if you know of anyone interested in doing this for decent money, let me know?
03:02:28 <sbp> will do
03:02:44 <sbp> though it's unlikely I'd count any such person a friend... :-)
03:05:48 <sbp> hey, I just thought!
03:05:48 *** Charibo^aw is now known as Charibo
03:05:55 <laplink> .g python sudoku
03:05:56 <phenny> laplink: http://pythonsudoku.sourceforge.net/
03:05:56 <sbp> RDF is a bit like the Java of the formats world
03:06:05 <Charibo> cu guys
03:06:06 *** Charibo has parted #swhack ()
03:06:09 <sbp> people will argue and argue that it's useful for something, and successful
03:06:11 <MoiraA> ooh thanks
03:06:21 <sbp> and there's a big crowd *devoted* to it
03:06:28 <MoiraA> oh sbp, would you not want much to do with someone like that?
03:06:32 <sbp> but at the end of the day, its disutility is surely self-evident more than anything
03:06:38 <MoiraA> that's true
03:06:44 <MoiraA> never looked at it like that
03:07:01 <sbp> MoiraA: if you're asking why, because I hate Sudoku. the reason I looked into a solver for it was that I figured it probably wasn't very complicated
03:07:05 <MoiraA> however, if it gives some hard up student the chance to earn some money then I don't have a problem
03:07:11 <sbp> it's just like doing mental arithmetic or sometihng
03:07:14 * MoiraA also hates suduko
03:07:18 <MoiraA> quite
03:07:22 <sbp> I don't find *basic* puzzles very useful
03:07:24 <MoiraA> not what I choose to do with my free time
03:07:26 <kpreid> "...the little known unit of uninterest, the watt-ever."
03:07:42 <MoiraA> I can see where you're comingfrom
03:07:44 <sbp> it's not like physical exercise where you can do a little of some boring repetetive movement and gain the best benefits from it
03:07:52 <MoiraA> if you want to learn python, then it might be useful
03:07:55 <sbp> with mental exercise, there are always grandois alternatives
03:07:57 <MoiraA> but if you already know it
03:07:58 <sbp> +e
03:07:59 <MoiraA> like you
03:08:13 <sbp> hmm, yeah, might well be useful as a python teaching device
03:08:15 <sbp> good idea
03:08:16 <MoiraA> I remember one stunningly boring arcade game I made in vb
03:08:40 <MoiraA> first person I proudly sent it to didn't even have the dot net framework!
03:08:57 <sbp> heh
03:09:09 <sbp> kpreid: watt-ever: ahahaha
03:09:42 <kpreid> thankyou
03:09:49 <MoiraA> lol
03:10:01 <MoiraA> this guy is talking of paying £400
03:11:11 <MoiraA> haha he hates suduko to
03:11:12 <sbp> £400 for a Sudoku solver in python?
03:11:25 <MoiraA> why does he want to pay 400 for a suduko game he hates?
03:11:32 <laplink> .wik Easy Money
03:11:33 <phenny> "Easy Money (film), a 1983 film starring Rodney Dangerfield" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easy_Money
03:11:35 <MoiraA> sbp I attract these weirdos something bad
03:11:40 <sbp> heh. I was satisfied merely with knowing there was a simple iterative solution to it
03:11:41 <laplink> .wik Sucker
03:11:41 <phenny> "Sucker, also called a lollipop, a type of confectionery consisting mainly of hardened, flavoured sucrose with corn syrup mounted on a stick and intended for sucking or licking" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucker
03:11:54 <laplink> FAIL!
03:12:20 <nsh> Monorail!
03:12:23 *** cr`x (n=crux@user-12lcqh4.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #swhack
03:12:31 <sbp> mono... d'oh!
03:12:35 <nsh> someone point me to something cool
03:12:41 <nsh> right the hell now
03:12:42 <sbp> okay, hang on
03:12:59 <sbp> nsh: http://data.tumblr.com/XgKk0gEJx69j7d22RcqfGoMU_500.png
03:13:13 <sbp> sry for delay
03:13:23 <nsh> iz k
03:13:49 <nsh> (ulzlay)
03:20:50 <nsh> .ety solenoid
03:20:51 <phenny> "'coil of insulated wire carrying an electrical current and having magnetic properties,' 1827, from Fr. solénoïde, from Gk. solen 'pipe, channel' + comb. form of eidos 'form, shape' (see -oid)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=solenoid
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03:33:16 <cr`x> what letter is QI up to?
03:34:36 <sbp> nu
03:34:48 <nslater> what does nu mean pls?
03:35:00 <sbp> NO YUO
03:35:05 <nslater> okai
03:35:29 <cr`x> :(
03:35:37 <nslater> i thought it might be related to mu
03:36:22 <sbp> Johnny Wilkinson just set a record for points kicked in rugby
03:36:27 <nsh> .ety atavistic
03:36:27 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "atavistic". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=atavistic
03:36:44 <cr`x> lat. atavus, forefather
03:36:58 <nsh> .ety atavar
03:36:58 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "atavar". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=atavar
03:37:01 <nsh> mm
03:37:25 <nsh> .ety atavus
03:37:25 <nsh> the game is to find which derivation etymonline has
03:37:25 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "atavus". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=atavus
03:37:30 <nsh> so determine the pie root
03:37:42 <cr`x> oh dear i'm becoming hungry
03:37:50 * nsh is becoming cold-of-foot
03:37:52 * sbp eats foods
03:39:35 <nsh> .ety atavism
03:39:35 <phenny> "1833, from F. atavisme, coined 1830s from L. atavus 'ancestor,' from at- perhaps here meaning 'beyond' + avus 'grandfather,' from PIE *awo- 'adult male relative other than the father.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=atavism
03:39:40 <sbp> AWO
03:39:41 <sbp> well done
03:39:54 <nsh> treaclepartybear
03:40:10 <nsh> you know, the bear who always turns up uninvited to your treacle parties
03:40:17 <sbp> hehe
03:40:35 <nsh> and you try and explain that he can't play treacle-tub-mountain because he's all furry and it'll be a hassle to get off
03:40:37 <nsh> but he never listens
03:40:48 <nsh> never listens.. :-/
03:41:51 <nsh> [[[
03:41:52 <nsh> Some technologists advocate design; others, prefer evolutionary search algorithms. Still others would selectively conflate the two, hoping to incorporate the best of both paradigms while avoiding their limitations. But while both processes are powerful, they are very different, and they are not easily combined. Rather, they present divergent paths.
03:42:09 <nsh> ]]] -http://jurvetson.blogspot.com/
03:42:14 <nsh> idiot.
03:43:02 <nsh> Compare, for example, Microsoft code to biological code: Office 2004 is larger than the human genome.
03:43:12 <nsh> (ibid.) retard.
03:43:24 * nsh should stop reading
03:44:15 <nsh> "In fact, biological evolution provides the only “existence proof” that an algorithm can produce complexity that transcends its antecedents."
03:44:45 <nsh> what does that even mean?
03:45:16 <nslater> that he's high as a kite?
03:45:33 <nsh> i bet if this guy was in the room with me right now, i could press that point for over an hour and he'd just end up waving his hands and looking ignorant
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03:45:51 <sbp> ROOSTER POTATOES
03:45:56 <sbp> - an advert at this stadium
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03:45:57 <nslater> his internets got hacked!
03:46:04 <nslater> he hcked ur internets d00d
03:46:08 <sbp> nsh: aw man, you missed the advert
03:46:15 <nslater> and the girls
03:46:28 <nsh> brmr
03:46:28 <nslater> it all happened in those 5 seconds you were gone
03:46:38 <nsh> loggy, pointer?
03:46:38 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-07#T03-46-38
03:47:04 <nslater> okay, so i lied about the girls
03:47:05 <nsh> awesome
03:47:08 <nsh> you're a lie about girls
03:47:33 <nsh> [[[
03:47:51 <nsh> But evolved systems have their disadvantages. For one, they suffer from “subsystem inscrutability”, especially within their information networks. That is, when we direct the evolution of a system or train a neural network, we may know how the evolutionary process works, but we will not necessarily understand how the resulting system works internally.
03:47:52 <nsh> For example, when Danny Hillis evolved a simple sort algorithm, the process produced inscrutable and mysterious code that did a good job at sorting numbers. But had he taken the time to reverse-engineer his evolved system, the effort would not have provided much generalized insight into evolved artifacts.
03:47:57 <nsh> ]]] -ibid
03:48:25 <cr`x> god, i suffered from subsystem inscrutability once, took me weeks to get rid of
03:48:29 <nsh> here the author decisively bridged the gap between intellectually wrong and morally wrong
03:48:35 <twe> And in the gap.
03:48:42 <sbp> nice bit of salve, works wonders
03:48:43 <cr`x> twe the twe twe
03:48:50 <twe> cr`x: Twe twe twe.
03:48:59 <cr`x> 'swhat i said, nearly
03:52:54 <tommorris> a simple but double-pronged question for the almighty #swhack: do developers prefer IRC to other chat protocols and why?
03:53:47 <MoiraA> aaargh
03:53:51 <laplink> Yes. The chicks.
03:53:53 <MoiraA> my blog has gone pear shaped
03:53:59 <nslater> I for one prefer IRC because you meet new people, my experience with other protocols is that you have to already know people.
03:54:06 <nslater> Also, hawt chix.
03:54:28 * MoiraA hates javascript and CSS so much
03:55:30 <tommorris> personally, it's because I can have 20 different channels going at once with interesting people discussing things I like in all of them
03:55:56 <MoiraA> or boring crap from the likes of me
03:55:58 <tommorris> the platform is also open, and the software I use is open-source and very straight forward and not-annoying
03:56:13 <cr`x> MoiraA, glad to see you've recovered your senses
03:56:18 <nslater> I never really used Jabber all that much so I may be wrong, but I like the fact that with IRC I can just hope over to irc.mozilla.org#jsapi if I am having trouble with compiling SpiderMonkey
03:56:31 <MoiraA> oh that
03:56:34 * MoiraA blushes
03:56:40 * MoiraA hangs head in shame
03:56:43 <nslater> ... for example
03:56:47 <cr`x> :D
03:56:47 <MoiraA> I'm still messed up cr`x
03:56:57 <MoiraA> and now I have become a technical dunce
03:57:01 <cr`x> Well you comport yourself much more nicely
03:57:10 <MoiraA> my website is broken
03:57:20 <MoiraA> I just can't grasp css and javascript
03:57:24 <cr`x> websites are made to be broken, didn't anyone ever tell you that?
03:57:28 <MoiraA> lol
03:57:38 <MoiraA> I've asked benji my index page designer to sort it
03:57:41 <tommorris> MoiraA: set yourself up a Gopher server instead
03:57:43 <MoiraA> he's paid enough
03:57:50 <nslater> MoiraA: URI?
03:57:50 <MoiraA> all I want is for it to work
03:57:56 <MoiraA> oh dear this will be embarrassing
03:58:04 <MoiraA> www.moiraatkinson.co.uk
03:58:06 <tommorris> I found gopher://seanm.ca/ today
03:58:20 * nslater finds it funny that gopher still exists
03:58:36 <MoiraA> well you can role around laughing at this
03:58:51 <MoiraA> and here's me saying before I was planning on reverse engineering flashfxp
03:58:53 <MoiraA> sheesh
03:59:26 <MoiraA> at least the link of kay works
03:59:46 <nslater> you link to the validator but you have ovar 9000 errors :p
04:00:05 <MoiraA> I do?
04:00:06 <MoiraA> hell
04:00:14 <MoiraA> all my wonderful web designer can offer is
04:00:15 <MoiraA> [16:19] « Benjy» ™: i can definately say something odd is happening
04:00:18 <tommorris> I'm thinking of moving my site over to a VPS - there's a nice Gopher server written in Python. It'd be great to rewrite my blog so I can access it over Gopher.
04:00:19 <nslater> well, 21
04:00:22 <MoiraA> Id got that far
04:00:34 <Arnia> hm
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04:00:43 <Arnia> .rirlw
04:00:45 <Arnia> uh
04:00:50 <Arnia> .title http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/jennifer.htm
04:00:50 <phenny> Arnia: Project Jennifer / Hughes Glomar Explorer
04:05:00 <cr`x> fuckn merkins amirite
04:05:07 * cr`x yernotwrong
04:05:41 <tommorris> this article is made of win: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~rohit/IEEE-L7-http-gopher.html
04:06:04 * sbp reads http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=466728 and chuckles
04:06:06 <sbp> poor nslater
04:06:12 <sbp> tommorris: YOU'VE BEEN PODCASTED
04:06:28 <sbp> haven't listened to it yet, watching Rugby. worth listening to?
04:06:37 <tommorris> huzzah!
04:07:04 <tommorris> It's kinda fun actually - just a tour guide of my ~/code/ directory
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04:10:54 * kwijibo curses apple for making him buy an expensive adapter to use a non-apple monitor with his laptop
04:11:55 <MoiraA> oh wonderful benji
04:11:57 <MoiraA> he fixed it
04:12:17 <MoiraA> what it was was that <div class="entry"> was not ended with a <div>
04:12:17 <MoiraA> so everything on the site was then placed inside that div.
04:12:18 <nslater> sbp: lol
04:12:49 <MoiraA> does it still have validator errors?
04:12:55 <tommorris> .g Firebug
04:12:56 <phenny> tommorris: http://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/1843
04:13:06 <tommorris> MoiraA: ^^ use Firebug!
04:13:19 <MoiraA> ok will do
04:13:20 <MoiraA> thanks
04:13:21 <sbp> .val http://www.moiraatkinson.co.uk/
04:13:22 <phenny> sbp: http://www.moiraatkinson.co.uk/ is Invalid (19 errors)
04:13:27 <MoiraA> oh crap
04:13:32 <MoiraA> phenny I hate you
04:13:36 <MoiraA> find them :)
04:13:39 <MoiraA> ok I will sort
04:13:54 <sbp> to see a full report, try http://validator.w3.org/
04:14:00 <sbp> phenny can't give a full report on IRC, of course
04:14:09 <nslater> .val bytesexual.org
04:14:11 <phenny> nslater: http://bytesexual.org is Invalid (4 errors)
04:14:15 <nslater> WHAT!
04:14:25 <nslater> it's only about 10 bytes
04:14:27 <cr`x> sbp, are there any palaeogrophy textbooks you particularly like?
04:14:35 <nslater> how could i fail so bad
04:15:06 <sbp> cr`x: nope, none I could recommend
04:15:13 <cr`x> pfah.
04:15:19 <sbp> I'm mainly interested in the transition period between secretary and italic
04:15:25 <sbp> and deciphering difficult secretary hands
04:15:25 <twe> Mainly in the x86 line.
04:15:27 <nsh> Wearing an "I'm probably lying" T-shirt in your police mug-shot: priceless
04:15:29 <nslater> .val bytesexual.org
04:15:31 <phenny> nslater: http://bytesexual.org is Valid
04:15:32 <sbp> and I think you get as much from experience as anything else
04:15:34 <nslater> woooo
04:15:38 <cr`x> aye.
04:15:39 <sbp> just look at loads of documents and their transcriptions
04:15:44 <nslater> HTML 4.01 Strict FTW.
04:15:44 <sbp> then practice on other documents
04:16:03 <cr`x> i'm not as interested in the practice of it, to be honest
04:16:38 <cr`x> as much as having a very rich resource/database/illustrated encylopedia/etc of the various hands
04:16:45 <nslater> .val bytesexual.org/shifter/
04:16:46 <phenny> nslater: http://bytesexual.org/shifter/ is Valid
04:16:59 <cr`x> For me it's a mostly aesthetic exercise
04:17:01 <sbp> yeah, that might be interesting
04:17:06 <nslater> .val bytesexual.org/couchng/
04:17:07 <phenny> nslater: http://bytesexual.org/couchng/ is Valid
04:17:14 <sbp> as a creative thing?
04:17:20 <cr`x> In a sense, yes.
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04:18:31 <cr`x> In the sense of 'creative thing' that quite a bit of my activity does fall under, ie, the creation and development of my own aesthetic framework, and the expansion/deepening of my frame of reference in every more concretely creative endeavour i *do* undertake
04:19:08 <cr`x> If you follow.
04:19:12 <nslater> plum: do you still want to embed the compsci dept into the toilet?
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04:19:30 <Arnia> I'm trying to remember where I saw that poster which showed all the different subjects in the sciences and how active they were and how they interlinked
04:19:38 <cr`x> There's actually one book that I know I very much do want, but is unavailable for under 50USD
04:19:43 <sbp> yeah
04:19:55 <sdkay> cr`x: torrent?
04:19:56 <sbp> Arnia: oh yeah, I saw that. hmm
04:20:18 <nslater> plum: do you still want to embed the compsci dept into the toilet?
04:20:26 <plum> william morris. a dream of john ball, all the other shoe.
04:20:28 <cr`x> sdkay: not as far as I've seen. I'm not sure the pirating community has any real interest in half-century old specialist books about typography
04:20:31 <sbp> Arnia: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/82/430561725_4eb7bc5d8a_o.jpg
04:20:33 <cr`x> .title http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0277-903X(196624)19%3A4%3C379%3ACT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-8
04:20:40 <phenny> cr`x: JSTOR: Renaissance News: Vol. 19, No. 4 (Winter, 1966), p. 379
04:20:41 <Arnia> Really need to have a shower though before going to the ball
04:20:44 <sdkay> cr`x: That would make sense.
04:20:47 <Arnia> Just had a haircut
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04:25:44 <Arnia> danke
04:27:52 <cr`x> bitte
04:28:44 <sbp> auch
04:29:51 <cr`x> My pipes rattle, whenever the heat comes on, so loudly that I am woken from sleep, or that I can't hear music playing at a reasonable volume.
04:30:12 <sdkay> The tubes? Maybe you should get more bandwidth.
04:30:40 <sdkay> <_<
04:31:50 <Arnia> I still like this advert, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3_hLTKiIZE
04:32:49 <cr`x> arnia, have you seen the royksopp video whence that is derived?
04:32:57 <Arnia> And of course, http://www.visual-literacy.org/periodic_table/periodic_table.html
04:33:11 <Arnia> cr`x: yes... although it is also just a form of infographic
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04:33:49 <Arnia> cr`x: but so was the video... those sorts of diagrams found in children's books and academic literature as well as in magazines
04:34:04 <cr`x> that periodic table is nearly mrdered by the typeface for me
04:34:36 <cr`x> (i'm also not sure it's technically periodic :/)
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04:49:09 <nslater> "But in as much as this reminds me of the airy nothinghood that the Semantic Web espouses, it's probably best to just start from scratch on the trendy terminology front as well."
04:49:17 <nslater> made me laugh :p
04:49:22 <sbp> hehe. good, good
04:49:35 <nslater> specifically "airy nothinghood"
04:49:36 <sbp> ja_ (*waves*) doesn't seem to have found it so funny
04:49:45 <nslater> i might append a "h" and use it as an ad hominem some time
04:49:46 * sdkay airs out your nothinghood
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04:49:58 <sbp> heh
04:51:15 <nslater> sbp: im not even sure how i feel about your essays, but they've cast me into a conceptual tumbolia of doubt, which is probably a good thing
04:51:36 <ja_> i find them boring and devoid of useful information :)
04:52:04 <sbp> why do you read them?
04:52:10 <ja_> maybe thats because i already thought the 'layer cake' was a pointless clusterfuck, though
04:52:17 <sbp> heh
04:52:41 <sdkay> Did somebody say cake?!
04:52:44 <ja_> will be interseting to see if it makes TWSW
04:52:49 <nslater> THE CAEK IS A LIE!
04:52:54 <ja_> danja links some random ass posts of mine
04:52:54 <sbp> yeah, I've been wondering that too
04:52:59 <ja_> so anything is possible
04:53:06 <sbp> and whether danja would ever interview me for Nodalities...
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05:00:48 <nslater> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/07/iphone-gpl
05:00:49 <nslater> .title
05:00:49 <phenny> nslater: Can GPL iPhone apps exist? [dive into mark]
05:01:44 <cr`x> sbp, i think 'thole' is a word you might have taken up as champion
05:02:04 <xover> I think Mark is looking for problems where there are none.
05:02:20 <sbp> cr`x: pizzardon me?
05:02:43 <cr`x> I'm rereading Seamus heaney's introduction to his Beowulf
05:02:48 <nslater> xover: I don't think he is, it's a valid concern. A lot of kickass OS X software is GPLd, it that's not going to be possible with the iPhone, well, that's interesting.
05:02:48 <sdkay> Why not? You'd just release the source on you site, and include the GPL either in the app's resources/ directory or in some user-agreement-looking screen when you download it.
05:02:49 <xover> Providing the AppStore as a service doesn't make Apple subject to the details of the GPL any more than the AppStore gives them Copyright interest in your code.
05:03:04 <nslater> xover: it does if they are distributing the software, which they are
05:03:23 <sbp> cr`x: I have that. which bit?
05:03:25 <nslater> xover: thats a pretty fundamental aspect of the GPL
05:03:32 <xover> nslater: Is AT&T bound by the GPL just because I get my DSL line from them?
05:03:44 <nslater> xover: thats conceptually and legally different
05:04:09 <xover> Is Earthlink bound by the GPL just because I host my binary downloads on their hosting service?
05:04:23 <nslater> No, the person responsible for the download is, legally.
05:04:23 <cr`x> he talks about þolian; the anglo-saxon 'to suffer', which he picked up in his ulster aunt's regional speech, and then found again in 20th century American South poetry, brought over by the scots-irish
05:04:38 <cr`x> page xxv
05:04:39 <sbp> ha
05:04:44 <sbp> I see now
05:04:49 <sbp> I'd been misparsing it as t-hole
05:04:58 <cr`x> what!?
05:04:59 <sbp> “YOU FUCKING T-HOLE”
05:05:02 <sbp> yeah
05:05:05 <cr`x> haha
05:05:20 <xover> Apple is providing you, the developer, with a “Virtual Webshop” service. License compliances is your problem, not theirs.
05:05:34 <xover> (above normal due dilligence)
05:05:38 <cr`x> sbp, my dear man, you as a man of letters and wide ranging interests, i cannot help sway myself from the notion that you would be singularly enraptured by the appelation 'T-Hole'
05:05:43 <nslater> xover: but that still doesnt change the concern, that GPL software might not be possible
05:05:56 <xover> nslater: I see not the slightest problem here.
05:06:03 <nslater> xover: with no GPL software?
05:06:15 <sbp> once I work out what a T-Hole is, I will most likely be dispensing it as an insult freely
05:06:21 <nslater> xover: do you not use any GPL software?
05:06:38 <sbp> EFL2 tw
05:06:41 <sbp> ...ftw
05:06:47 <sbp> I totally t-holed that
05:06:50 <sbp> hmm. no, that doesn't work
05:06:54 <xover> nslater: I intend to relase my GPL software through the AppStore at sme point.
05:07:09 <nslater> xover: how do you intend to distribute the source code?
05:07:18 <xover> Like I always have.
05:07:19 <nslater> xover: are you sure Apple is not legally required to offer the same?
05:07:25 <nslater> xover: just like linux distros are?
05:07:53 <xover> The Linux distros are creating a derivative work, plus some “mere aggregation”.
05:07:59 <xover> Apple aren't.
05:08:16 <nslater> But the GPL doesn't require that, it only requires re-distribution.
05:08:19 <cr`x> Dear friends: I think it is time to switch from Scala.
05:08:50 <xover> nslater: If you're really that worried, put the source code on the .dmg with the .app; problem solved.
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05:09:06 <xover> I repeat, there is no problem here.
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05:10:25 <nslater> meh, the whole thing seems very wrong an broken to me, but oh well, such is life
05:10:54 <xover> nslater: Yes, it tends to rub many people the wrong way when Apple insists on maintaining control over their platform.
05:11:15 <nslater> xover: where you see "their" I would like to see "our" :p
05:11:27 <sbp> ahahaha
05:11:29 <nslater> xover: and that's where it breaks for me
05:11:32 <sbp> woah, how did I not hear about this before?
05:11:40 <sbp> Portsmouth kicked Man U out of the FA Cup!
05:11:44 <sbp> 1-0, at Old Trafford!
05:11:54 <xover> nslater: They realise this. And they do respect their customers. So they go as far as they can in catering to them, without giving up that control.
05:12:23 <nslater> xover: you mean as far as they wish to go, they could go a lot further if they decided to
05:12:36 <xover> nslater: Not without losing that control.
05:12:56 <nslater> xover: well yes, but my issue is with them having control in the first place, no in how they pursue it as a goal
05:13:17 <xover> Why wouldn't they have control?
05:13:25 <xover> Or “shouldn't” if you prefer.
05:13:47 <sdkay> control, quality, Free, pick two?
05:13:53 <xover> Once the device is in your hands you have the ultimate control. SMash it with a brick if you like.
05:13:56 <nslater> they can do what they like, just like microsoft is free to make and distribute windows, but i prefer a free platform
05:14:14 <sdkay> Oh, wait. that doesn't work for MS.
05:14:16 *** darobin (n=robinb@m57.net81-66-103.noos.fr) has joined #swhack
05:14:18 <nslater> also, "control vs. quality" is clearly bogus
05:14:19 <xover> Oh preference, is it? Well, I'll not argue with your preference. It is, after all, yours.
05:14:59 <xover> nslater: Ask Linus Torvalds about control at some point.
05:15:10 <nslater> im not sure what that is supposed to mean
05:15:27 <nslater> the linux kernel is totally free
05:15:32 <xover> The Linux kernel is probably one of the most tightly controled projects out there; closed source r open.
05:15:56 <xover> I'll grant Steve Jobs is probably more of a micro-
05:16:03 <nslater> not really, it's a differrent definition of controled though. linus controls his own army of developers very tightly, or so you say (I really wouldn't know) but his product is totally free
05:16:08 <xover> -managing control-freak than Linus, but... :-)
05:16:10 <nslater> I can take it and do whatever I like to it
05:16:18 <nslater> and thats the kind of freedom I am interested in
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05:17:01 <xover> Right. And Apple wants the freedom to tightly couple their hardware and software in order to make both shine.
05:17:36 <nslater> and that's fine, but I will stay away because it doesnt fit into my view of how a platform should be operated
05:17:41 <cr`x> Borges Gris will take its place! Ta-dum!
05:17:52 <xover> nslater: Your choice.
05:17:57 <nslater> natch
05:18:22 <xover> You'll be depriving yourself of a good tool for what I think are the wrong reasons, but it's most certainly your choice.
05:18:58 <nslater> but I value freedom over utility, so for me it is a great choice :p
05:19:16 <xover> Certainly.
05:19:22 * nslater smiles
05:20:07 <xover> Then again, I don't think the lack of freedom is a practical concern in this case; only a philosophical and political one.
05:21:11 <nslater> but for someone who values philosophy and politics over practicality, that makes sense, right? heh
05:21:21 <xover> And in that sense I'm much more concerned that Apple hasn't released sufficient hardware specs to replace OS X with some Linux-based variant.
05:21:23 <nslater> anyway, I am sure there are plenty of practical ways this could effect someone
05:21:33 <nslater> are you kidding?
05:21:51 <nslater> I am currently running Ubuntu on a dual-core PowerMac
05:22:01 <nslater> ... and it's great! :)
05:22:05 <xover> On the iPhone?
05:22:13 <nslater> you said OS X
05:22:23 <xover> Yes, you're talking about Mac OS X. :-)
05:22:35 <nslater> im confused now
05:22:47 <nslater> are you talking about hardware specs for the iphone?
05:22:50 <nslater> or for powerpcs?
05:22:59 <nslater> or macs or whatever, with the move to intel
05:23:29 <xover> They haven't release the hardware specs for the iPhone.
05:23:30 *** cthompson (n=ct@cpe-65-27-254-58.cinci.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
05:23:47 <xover> Which doesn't make it impossible, but it does make it a lot harder.
05:23:56 <nslater> http://code.google.com/p/iphone-linux/
05:23:57 <nslater> heh
05:24:05 <xover> On their general purpose computers the need for specs is much less.
05:24:25 <nslater> yes, it is a concern, either way, linux on the iphone would be pretty sweet
05:24:39 <nslater> I love apple hardware! well, until it breaks and costs you £500 for a replacement psu
05:24:54 <nslater> (true story)
05:25:14 <cthompson> that's why you pay $200 up front for applecare
05:25:32 <nslater> well, i have read in many places that extended warrenty type deals are usually a net loss
05:25:49 <cthompson> buying computer hardware is a net loss
05:26:02 <cthompson> you can thank Moore and his law
05:26:06 <nslater> yeah, if you only use them for p40n and mp3 collections :p
05:26:50 * sdkay makes a joke about Comcast being a 'net loss
05:27:12 <cthompson> June of 1987 I bought, for my Atari 520ST, a 20meg hard drive. $985
05:27:24 <nslater> niiice
05:27:43 <cthompson> but man that machine would play a mean game of Starglider
05:27:53 <cthompson> and connect over my 300baud modem to all the cool BBSs
05:27:57 <cthompson> dear god I'm old
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05:28:15 <nsh> anyone having trouble connecting to gmail?
05:28:30 <cthompson> it's up here
05:28:41 <cthompson> from the heart of the blizzard in ohio
05:28:41 <cr`x> their imap server works, anyway.
05:28:41 * nsh shakes angry fist at leak wi-fi
05:29:32 <nsh> leak with a w
05:30:51 * nslater imagines leak powered wi-fi
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05:32:20 <nslater> .title http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001072.html
05:32:21 <phenny> nslater: Coding Horror: A Question of Programming Ethics
05:32:22 <nslater> wtf
05:32:41 <nsh> pft
05:32:46 <nsh> "as an acm member..."
05:32:54 <nsh> what a joke
05:33:12 <nslater> that's pretty epic
05:42:15 <sdkay> Now I'm never going to trust third-party aim clients anymore, thanks.
05:42:16 <sdkay> :P
05:42:35 <sdkay> s/anymore/again/
05:49:19 <cthompson> http://www.femaleleadguitarists.com/q/classicsolo/index.aspx
05:49:32 <cthompson> You are a Master! You're either an old man or a serious throwback!
05:50:15 <cthompson> I got 13/15
05:57:15 <cr`x> i dint know that mcartney played that solo.
05:57:43 <cthompson> I got that one wrong too
05:57:57 <cthompson> knew the song, clicked Harrison
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06:05:13 *** leobard (n=Miranda@rtr-u.ae.krakow.pl) has joined #swhack
06:07:00 *** xjrn (n=xjrn@c-76-102-228-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
06:08:17 <deltab> "Narrator: FI GLOVER"
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06:13:02 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's crschmidt!
06:13:08 <crschmidt> sbp: ping?
06:14:03 <crschmidt> something is using up a lot of disk on bia -- to the tune of 4MB/s. I don't know what it is. I notice that you have a hypercalc process running, which is the only thing out of the ordinary that I can see.
06:14:09 <crschmidt> does it possibly use disk?
06:14:12 *** leobard41 (n=Miranda@rtr-u.ae.krakow.pl) has joined #swhack
06:14:12 <Monty> But what does leobard41 have to do with the price of fish?
06:14:12 *** leobard41 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
06:15:19 <crschmidt> I see that your 'tmp' in your homedir is at 19GB
06:16:01 <nslater> wow, heh
06:16:12 <crschmidt> all of it in the hc_log file
06:16:16 <nslater> crschmidt: wont lsof tell you what you need to know?
06:16:21 <crschmidt> I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to remove that file
06:16:33 <crschmidt> I've got about 15 seconds until the machine is out of disk again
06:17:19 <nsh> make it dead.
06:18:22 <crschmidt> It appears that every thing is just I2=
06:19:55 <sbp> crschmidt: pong
06:19:59 <sbp> yeah, I've noticed this...
06:20:11 <sbp> hmm, hypercalc shouldn't be doing anything evil
06:20:29 <crschmidt> hypercalc was writing several htousand lines of "I2=" to tmp/hc_log every second
06:20:36 <sbp> hmm!
06:20:46 <sbp> bloody hell. sorry
06:20:53 <sbp> I'll remove this functionality
06:21:01 <sbp> post haste. doing it now
06:21:06 <crschmidt> the perl process that was running at the time was "hypercalc g64"
06:21:12 <crschmidt> If that helps you at all.
06:21:25 <sbp> aye, I've got it
06:21:29 <crschmidt> Anyway,, I had to kill it; removing the file unfortunately doesn't clean up the actual disk since the proess holds the file open
06:21:42 <sbp> no problem at all
06:22:00 <nsh> mmm
06:22:05 <sbp> it's basically an errancy of the program
06:22:16 <sbp> I didn't know it was saving to a log file somewhere. it wasn't in the documentation as far as I saw
06:22:29 <sbp> and in tests, when I'd piped it output and headed it, that seemed to exit the program
06:22:50 <sbp> alright, shouldn't happen again now
06:23:03 <crschmidt> THanks
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06:25:58 <cre8radix> sbp: you gonna port the timer.py?
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06:29:12 <sbp> cre8radix: nope, but you can if you like
06:29:14 <sbp> it's very easy
06:29:17 <sbp> add this to the top of the file:
06:29:21 <sbp> from tools import deprecated
06:29:26 <sbp> then put this above the function:
06:29:28 <sbp> @deprecated
06:29:39 <sbp> and if it uses group(1), change that to group(2)
06:29:40 <sbp> done
06:35:00 *** nsh_ (n=nsh@d85-194-245-82.cust.wlannet.com) has joined #swhack
06:35:19 <sbp> !
06:35:22 <sbp> Garnsley hoal!
06:35:32 <sbp> #@^&
06:35:35 <sbp> Barnsley scored
06:40:35 <nsh_> .wik FAI
06:40:35 <phenny> "Fatal Accident Inquiry, a Scottish legal aspect, used when a fatal accident has occurred." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAI
06:40:43 <nsh_> .wik UFAI
06:40:44 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "UFAI".
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06:44:10 <cr`x> I think cricket should be seeing a renaissance in this modern age
06:44:22 <cr`x> It is a game more perfectly suited to never have one's full attention devoted to it.
06:44:25 <nsh_> (un)friendly artificial intelligence
06:44:46 *** nsh has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
06:44:52 *** nsh_ is now known as nsh
06:48:53 <nsh> .w framster
06:48:54 <phenny> I couldn't find 'framster' in WordNet.
06:49:10 <cthompson> .w cromulent
06:49:11 <phenny> I couldn't find 'cromulent' in WordNet.
06:49:15 <cthompson> FAIL
06:50:19 <nslater> .wik cromulent
06:50:20 <phenny> "'Lisa the Iconoclast' is the sixteenth episode of The Simpsons' seventh season, and is probably the most important episode for Jebediah Springfield since 'The Telltale Head'." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromulent
06:50:36 <cthompson> a noble spirit embiggens us all
06:51:22 * nsh wonders why someone decided that the introductary sentence required a mention of how the episode stands in the list of importance to a fictional character from the show
06:52:03 <cthompson> the biggest strength of wikipedia is that anyone can edit pages
06:52:12 <cthompson> the biggest weakness of wikipedia is that anyone can edit pages
06:56:30 <cr`x> There is an insidiously pro-Jebediah Springfield cabal of editors who are systematically working to undermine Wikipedia as a method to spread their propaganda.
06:57:05 <cthompson> cr`x, they're all from shelbyville
06:58:08 <nsh> hrmm
06:58:35 <nsh> this overcomingbias blog
06:58:58 <nsh> tastes faily
06:59:21 <nsh> but it has some nice sauce on bits of it
07:00:11 <nsh> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/reject-random-b.html
07:00:30 <nsh> this post especially has the acrid flavour of nuubarb
07:03:30 <sbp> Barnsley have knocked Chelsea out
07:04:20 * nsh pictures massive parallel hockey-style fight
07:04:31 <nsh> or, better
07:04:51 <nsh> each team acrobatically assembles into a leviathon-type formation
07:05:06 <nsh> and they begin fighting man-pyramid-mecha stylee
07:07:25 <nsh> .gs * bedfellows
07:07:26 <phenny> * bedfellows: strange (54), strange space (2), unfortunate, stranger, sinister, seed strange, mostly strange, imdb strange, for story strange, estranged, dark, bizarre, bipartisan
07:07:40 <cthompson> unfortunate bedfellows
07:07:41 <cthompson> been there
07:08:13 <cthompson> of course, everyone experiments in college
07:08:20 <nsh> fortune fed bellows would be cool
07:11:28 * nsh frowns
07:11:28 <nsh> there's a university of oxford badge on this blog
07:11:56 *** sbp changed the topic to: "balls deep awesome"
07:11:56 <nsh> ugh
07:12:23 <nsh> "tenured professor" just lost another seven esteem echelons
07:12:56 <nsh> .ety echelon
07:12:57 <phenny> "1796, from Fr. échelon 'level, echelon,' lit. 'rung of a ladder,' from O.Fr. eschelon, from eschiele 'ladder,' from L.L. scala 'stair, slope,' from L. scalæ (pl.) 'ladder, steps.' Originally 'step-like arrangement of troops,' sense of 'level, subdivision' is from WWI." - http://etymonline.com/?term=echelon
07:15:55 *** chris2 has quit ("Leaving")
07:20:39 * nsh needs to apply for a visa to russia
07:23:09 <sbp> K9 is playing the Weakest Link
07:23:11 <sbp> and doing quite well so far
07:23:15 <cr`x> русский
07:23:31 <sbp> Pisskii to you too
07:23:41 <cr`x> all told, i'm not a huge fan of cyrillic
07:23:44 <cr`x> i think greek is much nicer
07:23:47 <sbp> me neither
07:23:52 <sbp> nah, Greek is... hmm
07:23:55 <sbp> maybe not worse
07:25:36 <cr`x> Καφενέ!
07:25:54 <sbp> poor K9
07:26:00 <cr`x> is K9 a dog?
07:26:09 <sbp> yeah
07:26:24 <cr`x> I don't imagine a dog could be that good at any quiz show.
07:28:14 <sbp> hope Arnia's watching this. it's actually pretty good
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07:46:50 <cr`x> JÅ
07:46:57 <cr`x> Ȝå
07:47:11 <cr`x> ȜȝȜȝȜȝȜȝ
07:47:48 <_bjoern> .gs I'm a doctor, not *
07:47:48 <phenny> I'm a doctor, not *: a bricklayer (8), a (8), otherwise specified (2), captain obvious (2), a doorstop (2), ¯ 13 ¯wbr¼«¼¯¤, verified -- 0116, space junk, some pansy, some kind, some ips, santa claus, p
07:47:54 <_bjoern> .gs I'm a doctor, not a *
07:47:55 <phenny> I'm a doctor, not a *: lawyer (4), nightlight (3), mechanic (3), magician (3), insert (3), botanist (3), scriptwriter (2), prostitute (2), priest (2), prehistoric (2), mathematician (2), forklift (2), fi
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07:48:59 <cr`x> o.o
07:49:19 <cr`x> i am seeing phenny respond before björn asks the question. that's fuckt.
07:50:00 <sdkay> Heh, sweet.
07:51:45 *** est (n=est@adsl-71-142-71-85.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack
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07:53:41 <_bjoern> .comp "suicide booth" "agony booth"
07:53:43 <phenny> "agony booth" (29,200), "suicide booth" (18,200)
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07:55:50 *** nsh_ is now known as nsh
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08:05:45 <_bjoern> .gs your * is speaking to you
08:05:45 <phenny> your * is speaking to you: mother (5), spouse (3), soul (3), president (3), intuition (3), conscience (3), spirit (2), prospect (2), partner (2), husband (2), higher self (2), gut (2), father (2), dog (2), c
08:05:56 *** curler is now known as ja
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08:08:10 *** ja has quit ("leaving")
08:10:07 <nsh> sbp: http://www.zenatode.org.uk/ian/misc/omphalos.xhtml
08:10:29 <nsh> (read from bottom up)
08:11:12 <sbp> awesome
08:11:18 <sbp> yeah, I slowly figured that out myself. heh
08:11:54 <cthompson> Every time you say "accretive," a douchebag gets his wings.
08:13:54 <nslater> Anyone remember when nsh said "ah, the good ol' wind-up chalky toasdstool is back"?
08:14:38 <_bjoern> Yes, and it wasn't funny at all.
08:15:52 <sbp> _bjoern's just standing up for Monty
08:15:53 <Monty> dahut aint here
08:15:53 <nsh> memeforcing will not be tolerated
08:16:02 <nsh> dahut, you here or not?
08:16:02 <sbp> yes he is!
08:16:11 <sbp> he might not be speaking, but he's here
08:16:17 <_bjoern> paper
08:16:17 <Monty> I chose stone - You win :(
08:16:18 <dahut> I had rock, _bjoern wins.
08:16:26 <sbp> man, _bjoern pwnz
08:16:32 <nsh> acronym hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
08:16:55 <_bjoern> Xtr4l33t
08:17:00 * nslater puts his meme back on the self for future usage
08:17:25 <sbp> personally I'm trying to instill "probable biscuits"
08:17:26 <cr`x> i really, really don't get the toadstool meme
08:17:31 <sbp> slowly, slowly though
08:17:36 <sbp> so that nsh doesn't notice and cry wolf
08:17:45 <sbp> though I have to admit that I have probably fucked it up now by going all meta
08:17:52 <sbp> that's the problem with meta. you just can't avoid it
08:18:00 <nslater> cr`x: nsh said it one day with no explanation, then quit swhack
08:18:04 * sbp shakes fist at meta
08:18:08 <nslater> cr`x: which was enough to put me into tears
08:18:18 <_bjoern> TO DESTROY META, ZOOM IN
08:18:19 <nslater> cr`x: then sbp changed the topic and i actually cried with laughter
08:18:39 <nslater> s/enough/almost enough/
08:19:06 <nslater> cr`x: also, it's toasdtool :p
08:19:14 <cr`x> oh. Well… fair enough.
08:19:19 <cr`x> At least there's nothing to get.
08:19:20 *** Morbus has quit ("http://www.disobey.com/")
08:19:34 <nslater> cr`x: nothing apart from sublime absurdity
08:19:39 *** Morbus (n=morbus@c-24-34-64-110.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
08:19:40 <sbp> cr`x: nsh made nslater cry. I think this is an event worth commemorating once in a while
08:20:00 <cr`x> I think I still get nsh and nslater mixed up :/
08:20:12 <nslater> .swhack toasdtool
08:20:20 <sbp> nsh = provider of salmiakki, sayer of witticisms
08:20:28 <nsh> now would be a bad time to reveal true identities
08:20:31 <sbp> nslater = porter of phenny, defender of free software
08:20:32 <nslater> i will probably get the giggles seing the original logs, it really is that powerful
08:20:35 <phenny> nslater: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-05#T05-08-42
08:20:42 <sbp> no, wait! open source. free software?
08:20:48 <sbp> one of those things, anyway. doesn't matter which
08:20:49 <cr`x> FOSS.
08:20:53 <nsh> trebor softwares
08:20:58 <nsh> twice as minty
08:21:02 <cr`x> free as in anarchism
08:21:03 * nslater puts on his gnu hat and beard and weilds the sword of freedom
08:21:07 <sbp> Treeebot mints are a minty bit stronger
08:21:14 <sbp> Stick 'em up yer bum and they'll last a bit longer
08:21:17 <cr`x> i just amuse myself by parsing the name as 'ns later'
08:21:23 <sbp> (I'm also going to let the typo stand)
08:21:28 <nsh> it isn't?
08:21:54 <cr`x> It... might not be.
08:21:57 <nslater> omg lol
08:21:59 <nslater> cr`x: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-04#T04-33-44
08:22:18 <nsh> ns'later > n'slater any day of week
08:23:08 <sbp> nsh: so is it ns'h or n'sh?
08:23:13 <cr`x> Good Old Wind Up Chalky Toasdstool.
08:23:15 <nsh> nsh isn't voiced.
08:23:16 * cr`x repeats to self.
08:23:28 <nsh> it's a silent syllable
08:23:29 <sbp> fine, fine...
08:23:37 <nsh> and it'll stay silent if it knows what's good for it
08:23:39 <sbp> nsh: so *now* is it ns'h or n'sh?
08:23:44 <nslater> cr`x: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-04#T04-37-22
08:23:47 <nsh> eek, i've been anti-Smithed
08:23:50 * cr`x set mode +v nsh
08:23:54 <nslater> cr`x: it seems i waqs laughing for a solid 4 minutes, thats quite a record
08:24:13 * sbp watches Crufts
08:24:19 <sbp> lots of pretty dogs
08:24:31 <cr`x> It also seems I was there, even; I just didn't understand what was happening
08:24:32 <nsh> {"!"}kolera
08:24:33 * cr`x still don't
08:25:49 <cr`x> bet you wish you had kicked her dog, eh?
08:25:54 <cr`x> er
08:26:05 <cr`x> yeah, THAT doesn't make any sense in the logs
08:26:07 * nsh snickers
08:26:17 <nsh> LOGS LOG ALL CONVERSATION
08:26:27 <sbp> that's alright, fits perfectly for you
08:26:31 <nslater> YOU'VE EXPOSED ME AND MY DOG KICKING HABBITS!
08:26:34 <cr`x> haha oh I see
08:26:41 <cr`x> Fits my emerging profile as a clueless american?
08:27:16 <nsh> Twe, do you have anything emerging?
08:27:26 <sbp> sure, just flip in the odd off-the-cuff remark about Republican overlording and it'll all be nice and consistent
08:27:26 <twe> nsh: What is an emerging field of discourse is going to have you.
08:27:42 <cr`x> I am very much a citizen of the world, you know
08:27:46 <cr`x> I've been to Europe and everything
08:28:05 <sbp> England doesn't count, we're too Americanised now
08:28:11 <cr`x> Oh I know
08:28:15 <cr`x> I meant THE CONTINENT
08:28:16 * sdkay is a citizen of The Democratic Republic of The Internets
08:28:19 <sbp> you have to go to a country without a McDonalds
08:28:21 <cr`x> Never been to your isles actually
08:28:25 <nslater> you mean Americanized?
08:28:33 <sbp> no, I'm resisting
08:28:46 <cr`x> I may or may not want to note, by the way, that the font I have settled on is Arno Pro
08:28:47 <sbp> and doing a bloody good job! sometimes
08:28:51 <nslater> i staunchly write all my software in en_GB as a political statement
08:28:54 <sbp> .g Arno Pro
08:28:54 <cr`x> not my very first choice, design-wise, but it's got yoghs
08:28:55 <phenny> sbp: http://www.adobe.com/type/browser/landing/arno/arno.html
08:29:03 <cr`x> ȝȜȝȜȝȜ
08:29:07 * cr`x ȝȜȝȜȝȜ
08:29:14 <cr`x> even wiggly ones.
08:29:19 <sbp> something I just noticed about the ladies on Crufts
08:29:19 <nsh> we'll start using your random letter substitutions when you start pronouncing those letters correctly
08:29:25 <sbp> they all have impeccable shoes
08:29:38 <nslater> women in gernal have impeccable shoes, at least on telly
08:29:50 <nslater> ive always held that you can tell a lot about a person from the shoes
08:30:11 <nslater> i judge people on choice of footware, i readily admit
08:30:21 *** nsh has parted #swhack ()
08:30:21 *** nsh (n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh) has joined #swhack
08:30:36 <sbp> cr`x: ezhes too?
08:31:34 <sbp> Halogen Lights: heh
08:31:35 <cr`x> Hm, dunno. I don't think about those as much, since they're so ahistorical and all
08:31:44 * cr`x looksitup
08:33:18 <cr`x> It does not have the Ezh, no; though the ones that I do are the motleyest crüe
08:33:27 <cr`x> ƷȜ
08:34:44 <cr`x> nslater: What is the general layout of your footware judgments?
08:35:03 <nslater> cr`x: they are too complex to provide summary
08:35:11 <cr`x> Gosh.
08:35:17 <nslater> cr`x: you are free to question me about specific cases
08:35:27 <cr`x> Jump boots?
08:35:53 * sdkay wears high heels just to throw nslater off
08:36:31 <nslater> tbh, i think i will withold comment, except to say that i do tend to make snap judgements based on footware alone
08:36:45 <nslater> you can see a guy in a really nice suite, but his shoes will often tell another story
08:36:48 * nslater laughs
08:37:33 * nslater curses his spelling
08:37:33 <sbp> http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/mahmahbaeh/drawings/eeeep.jpg
08:38:32 * nslater puts on his socks and sandals and goes to the shop
08:38:39 *** libby (n=libby@77-101-209-30.cable.ubr04.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
08:38:39 <Monty> Thank goodness, libby is back!
08:39:50 <nsh> hrmm
08:39:59 <sbp> any ideas?
08:40:05 <nsh> i should read more Robert Wilson
08:40:15 <sbp> looks Mexicanesque
08:40:15 <cr`x> I can say for sure that you needn't, nsh
08:40:22 <sdkay> Is it a map?
08:40:22 <sbp> .wik Robert Wilson
08:40:23 <cr`x> As long as you are past the age of 15
08:40:23 <phenny> "Robert J Wilson (Born 1988), Professional British actor and musician in local band 'The Craft'" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wilson
08:40:33 <nsh> it never occurred to me that the militant green/animal rights factions might be the consequence of agents provocateur
08:40:39 <nsh> *(be in part)
08:40:40 <sbp> might be
08:40:44 <cr`x> .wik robert anton wilson
08:40:46 <phenny> "Robert Anton Wilson or RAW (born Robert Edward Wilson, January 18, 1932 – January 11, 2007) was a prolific American novelist, essayist, philosopher, psychologist, futurologist, libertarian, and conspiracy theory researcher." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Anton_Wilson
08:40:46 <sbp> not sure if there's any treasure though
08:40:49 <nsh> Robert Anton Wilson, that is
08:41:14 <nsh> i just always assumed that some activists were nutters
08:41:26 <nsh> and they nutterised other people
08:42:07 <cr`x> I must confess I believe that to be an utterly reasonable assumption in the proportion of cases so overwhelming that its counterexamples are statistically insignificant
08:42:21 <nsh> well
08:42:30 <nsh> when you push a rock down a hill
08:42:32 *** tav (n=tav@91.84.103.124) has joined #swhack
08:42:44 <sdkay> You could kill someone?
08:42:49 <nsh> at all stages after the push it's patently obvious that the rock is going down the hill because it has going-down-hill momentum
08:42:56 <nsh> an inherent feature of that rock
08:43:00 <_bjoern> .wik Metahumor
08:43:00 <phenny> "Meta-joke refers to three somewhat different, but related categories: 'self-referential jokes', 'jokes about jokes' (see meta-) also known as metahumor, and 'joke templates'.[citation needed]|" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metahumor
08:43:11 <cr`x> I also must confess I fail to see the relevance of our downhill rock
08:43:15 <nsh> but the push need only be tiny
08:43:18 <sbp> .gc mosbunall
08:43:19 <phenny> mosbunall: 470
08:43:25 <sdkay> To kill someone, you mean?
08:43:35 <cr`x> Still not getting you.
08:43:39 <cr`x> I have started drinking, though.
08:43:41 <sbp> nsh: Charles Fort
08:43:49 <sdkay> cr`x: He's a murderer.
08:43:55 <nsh> sbp: Henry Castle
08:43:55 <cr`x> Charles Fort!?
08:43:56 <sbp> recipe: buy the Complete Works, read them, be happy
08:44:02 * nsh smiles
08:44:10 <nsh> (i though we were playing a name game)
08:44:21 <cr`x> Peter Kingdom!
08:44:24 <nsh> cr`x: rock on the top of a hill is just waiting to start rolling down
08:44:25 <sbp> Henry Castle would have been a good move
08:44:27 <nsh> but it still needs a push
08:44:42 <cr`x> I saw Fay Grimm. It was pretty wretched.
08:45:17 <nsh> sbp, good rook development, anyway
08:45:25 <sbp> yeah
08:45:28 <sbp> O-O-O
08:45:28 <cr`x> Nsh, but if I'm reading you right here, your analogy only makes sense if no one in the history of animal lib/env. activism had ever thought about blowing something up until some undercover fed did it first.
08:45:43 <cr`x> Which I find implausible.
08:45:45 <sbp> s/Nsh/nsh/
08:45:50 <cr`x> 'strue.
08:45:53 <nsh> cr`x, certainly
08:46:08 <nsh> but it's not as simple as a round hill
08:46:11 <cr`x> Sbp, when I want your Help I'll Ask For It
08:46:23 <nsh> there are many potential wells when it comes to human collective actions
08:46:26 <sbp> I just have vauge recollections of being shouted at for calling him NSH once on #esp in like 2004
08:46:32 <sbp> such things sink in
08:46:37 <cr`x> Did you do it on your MAC computer?
08:46:37 <nsh> I NEVER SHOUT AT SBP
08:46:54 <sbp> .wik MAC
08:46:54 <phenny> "Macintosh, a brand of personal computers" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC
08:47:06 <_bjoern> I REGULARILY SHOUT AT SBP
08:47:06 <sbp> no, I didn't have it then
08:47:07 <cr`x> I interviewed a fellow a couple weeks ago for a position at my store who referred to them as MAC on his CV. Bad sign.
08:47:12 <sbp> I CAN CONFIRM THIS
08:47:13 <_bjoern> USUALLY FOR TEH LULZ
08:47:26 <_bjoern> BUT I ALSO LIKE SHOUTING GENERALLY SPEAKING
08:47:38 <_bjoern> SO THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME PLEASURE IN LIFE AFTER ALL
08:47:46 <sbp> ESPECIALLY IF IT CONFUSES PURPLE
08:47:50 * nsh puts head closer to screen so that bjoern gets even louderer
08:47:52 <_bjoern> YES I LIKE THAT
08:48:03 <nsh> bah
08:48:05 <sbp> on OS X you can just Ctrl+scroll
08:48:10 <nsh> lack of focus muffled your voices
08:48:12 <nsh> :-/
08:48:13 <sbp> to ZOOOoooooo ... in
08:48:14 <deltab> curious yellow, confused purple
08:48:18 <cr`x> nsh, in any case, I believe that false flag and various conspiracy type things do go on, and they do go on more than the general public is aware, but I also believe that in the grand scheme of things there are quite a few things higher on the list of Why Things Are The Way They Are than 'govt conspiracy'
08:48:20 <sdkay> sbp: You mean on a MAC?
08:48:38 <nsh> cr`x, right on brother
08:48:50 <cr`x> You're my brother from a different mother, man.
08:48:50 <sbp> sdkay: jag är nyfiken - gul
08:48:58 * nsh smiles
08:49:12 <nsh> one of my best friends from high-school used to call me his "Big bald brother from another mother"
08:49:20 <nsh> (when I had spell of alapecia)
08:49:27 <nsh> but i always assumed he was saying "Big-balled"
08:49:27 <sdkay> phenny: "jag är nyfiken - gul"
08:49:29 <cr`x> Incidentally this beer is delicious
08:49:33 <sdkay> phenny: "jag är nyfiken - gul" ?
08:49:33 <nsh> because i have huge balls, you see.
08:49:48 <sdkay> phenny: fuck you?
08:49:51 <nsh> *alopecia
08:50:00 <cr`x> If you folks on your Isles ever see a bottle with an adorable red cartoon owl on it, I suggest you acquire it and drink it
08:50:11 <sbp> sdkay: no space before the question mark
08:50:26 <sdkay> phenny: "jag är nyfiken - gul"?
08:50:27 <phenny> sdkay: I think it's Swedish, which I can't translate.
08:50:33 <sdkay> phenny: fuck you?
08:50:38 <nsh> "Can't", or "Won't", phenny
08:52:28 * cr`x sigh
08:52:40 <nsh> anyway, cr`x: http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/connor.htm
08:52:46 <cr`x> I suppose at the end of the day I'm just glad that I never got any tattoos involving the Hassan I Sabbah
08:52:55 <nsh> scroll to: "Give me some background information on the Gandalf Trial."
08:53:40 <nsh> GA = Green Anarchist (underground magazine, from what i can gather)
08:54:26 <deltab> speaking of people called John Connor: “A new episode on Thursday, but next we ease you back into the story so far, like an episodic shoehorn.”
08:54:44 *** jewel_ (n=jewel@dsl-242-144-167.telkomadsl.co.za) has joined #swhack
08:54:57 <cr`x> Yeah, I mean, honestly, I believe that stuff with little resistence
08:56:11 *** libby has quit ("Leaving")
08:56:37 <cr`x> But even in that context—animal rights + green activism has been unsuccessful because of its general lack of support, because of its lack of internal organization, because of its general lack of political savvy; not because the governments of the USA and the UK have conspired to turn them into terrorists. You say 'animal rights' and people think about marginal whackos throwing paint at rich people and hiring naked models to get into cattles
08:56:39 <_bjoern> .gs row row row your *
08:56:39 <phenny> row row row your *: boat (91), scull (2), nucanoe (2), elebethiel (2), dragon boat (2), concrete boat (2), boatalone (2), boat lyrics (2), boa (2), b (2), teckel, rowbot, piroque, goat goat, goat, cur
08:57:06 * nsh smiles
08:57:26 <sdkay> ...lyrics?
08:57:35 <cr`x> I don't suppose phenny could say "foo (91) {bar, foobar, brar, frar, foor} (2), blower, booble, tooper"
08:58:53 <_bjoern> .gs twinkle twinkle little *
08:58:54 <phenny> twinkle twinkle little *: star (122), bat (5), quasar (3), minmini (3), star board book (2), monstar (2), taggie, store, starrrrrrrrrr, star were written, star rebus, star coloring, star 2005, star - wikipe
08:59:11 <sdkay> starrrrrrrrrr!
08:59:29 <cr`x> So THAT'S how you learned English, eh bjoern?
09:00:03 <nsh> oh man
09:00:18 <nsh> who was that oldoldschool character from unix computing
09:00:23 <cr`x> see nsh I find this interview very interesting
09:00:30 <nsh> what spoke with LOTS of random CAPITALISED words!?
09:00:34 <cr`x> yow
09:00:36 <JibbyBot> PARDON me, am I speaking ENGLISH?
09:00:38 <cr`x> Zippy the Pinhead
09:00:42 <nsh> aha
09:00:45 <nsh> wins!
09:01:06 <_bjoern> .gs what are little * made of
09:01:08 <phenny> what are little * made of: girls (33), boys (31), husbands (4), babies (4), texts (3), girl (3), fags (3), commandants (3), aliens (3), worms (2), trees (2), niilos (2), monsters (2), jacks (2), hoys (2), cd
09:01:31 <nsh> oh, it was a comic strip character
09:01:53 * nsh wonders why he remembers it from a hacker context
09:01:56 <cr`x> er anyway, I find it interesting because among all this talk about false flags and the like, this fellow is also talking about all the trivial, juvenile infighting and smear campaigns he had to suffer from OTHER folks within his various movements.
09:02:09 * nsh nods
09:02:25 <nsh> one of the defining aspects of these moments is a high degree of emotion
09:02:30 <cr`x> but also:
09:02:38 <nsh> *movements
09:02:51 <cr`x> At some point leftist causes have drifted far enough outside the mainstream that they are taken up in the greatest proportion by avant-garde artists, squatters, etc
09:03:00 <nsh> ah
09:03:02 <nsh> fortune(1)
09:03:23 <nsh> mmm
09:03:31 <cr`x> the sort of people who are exceedingly bad at turning their particular principles into movements, because they also feel the need to release magazines with names like 'Cunt'
09:03:52 <cr`x> But yeah man, hackers love that Zippy shit. yow has been around for ever.
09:03:56 <_bjoern> phenny, de "两隻老虎，两隻老虎， 跑得快，跑得快， 一隻没有耳朵，一隻没有尾巴， 真奇怪，真奇怪!"?
09:03:57 <phenny> _bjoern: "?????????? ???????? ?????????????? ???????!" (de)
09:03:57 * nsh smiles
09:04:01 <_bjoern> err
09:04:04 <_bjoern> phenny, "两隻老虎，两隻老虎， 跑得快，跑得快， 一隻没有耳朵，一隻没有尾巴， 真奇怪，真奇怪!"?
09:04:06 <phenny> _bjoern: "Two □tigers, two □tigers, run quickly, runs quickly, one □does not have the ear, one □does not have the tail, really strange, is really strange!" (zh)
09:04:36 <nsh> i think we might have a new source of language-entropy in swhack
09:04:43 <cr`x> ahhh there we go
09:04:45 <nsh> chinese proverbs translated through phenny
09:04:45 <cr`x> Emacs
09:04:48 <cr`x> M-x yow
09:05:01 <cr`x> I think that's where I was introduced, even before fortune.
09:05:11 *** _27b[6] (n=cp@c-66-31-245-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
09:05:12 <nsh> i think i used fortune before emacs
09:05:16 <_bjoern> Actually it's not a chinese proverb but Frère Jacques.
09:05:21 <nsh> BOT NICK DETECTED
09:05:27 <nsh> COMMENCING COUNTER-MEASURES
09:05:35 <_bjoern> What, /quit?
09:06:25 <nsh> _27b[6]: PLEASE INFORM THE CHANNEL OF YOUR OPINIONS REGARDING CARNIVAL FOLK
09:06:44 <nsh> _27b[6]: OR PRE-EMPTIVE ANTI-BOT STRIKES WILL BE LAUNCHED..
09:06:51 * sbp waves
09:06:53 <sbp> 'night!
09:06:59 <nsh> night
09:07:01 <nsh> :-)
09:07:03 <cr`x> KEEP THE FAITH SOLDIER
09:08:13 <nslater> _27b[6]: asl pls
09:08:45 <_27b[6]> nslater: allow me to google 'sam lowry' first
09:09:16 <cr`x> whoa... good bot.
09:09:28 <nslater> based on one response, i feel that is premature
09:09:30 <nsh> LAUNCHES BELAYED
09:09:44 <nsh> .ety belay
09:09:45 <phenny> "O.E. bilecgan 'to lay a thing about' (with other objects), from be- + lecgan 'to lay' (see lay)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=belay
09:09:52 <cr`x> LAUNCHES LAYED ABOUT
09:09:53 <nsh> .gs belay that *
09:09:54 <phenny> belay that *: order (5), talk (4), piracy (3), yay (2), yarn (2), stupid (2), question (2), nose-picking cadet (2), delay (2), you lubber, you, tylenol, thy, thought, spoutin, spam, something, s
09:09:56 <nslater> .u heart
09:09:57 <phenny> U+2766 FLORAL HEART (❦)
09:10:14 <nsh> floral heart looks like left-overs from home-butchery
09:10:28 <nsh> i would not eat that, nor present it to an amourous interest
09:10:39 <cr`x> I knew a girl in high school with a similar name; one of my great could-have-beens.
09:10:50 <nsh> you knew a girl called Floral Heart?
09:11:15 <nsh> .gs Floral *
09:11:16 <phenny> Floral *: arrangements (9), designs (8), and (6), decorators (5), park (4), design (4), wallpaper patterns (3), shop (3), haven (3), wallpaper (2), tattoos (2), tapestry (2), tapestries (2),
09:11:16 <_27b[6]> Umi Koda but i just called her Unicode
09:11:43 * nslater giggles
09:11:45 *** _27b[6] is now known as ab_
09:12:03 <nsh> }"{__++__}"{
09:12:13 <nsh> \''##@@####/
09:12:24 <nsh> well, i give up on being an ascii artist
09:12:24 <cr`x> nslater: along those lines.
09:12:30 <cr`x> Have you guys ever seen http://willrad.com/~wwoods/garfield/ ?
09:12:34 <nslater> yes
09:12:38 <cr`x> Liar.
09:12:44 <nslater> @}-'-,---
09:12:47 * nslater rules at ascii art
09:13:08 <nslater> cr`x: i totally have seen this meme about one hundred times
09:13:15 <nsh> i don't get it
09:13:16 <nslater> cr`x: it's about 2 months old
09:13:36 <cr`x> I know it's about 2 months old! I guess around here that means it's definitely been covered
09:13:38 <nsh> is it funny because garfield isn't funny and if you remove non-funny it becomes funny in some ironic way?
09:13:41 <nslater> nsh: it's meant to be funny with john obviously being batshit crazy
09:13:50 <nsh> oh
09:13:52 <cr`x> No, it's not the ones where you remove garfield
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09:14:18 <cr`x> It's a similar rewriting, but much more convulsively funny
09:14:26 <nsh> oh, i hadn't noticed the eyes
09:14:32 <cr`x> the eyes have it, nsh
09:14:35 <nslater> i highly doubt john would say fuck
09:14:46 <nsh> now i kinda gets a elulzions
09:14:56 <nsh> but they be week
09:15:29 <cr`x> Whatever, man. I will sit here and drink my beer and giggle at ()(.)
09:15:32 *** chimezie (n=chimezie@adsl-66-72-193-42.dsl.clevoh.ameritech.net) has joined #swhack
09:15:46 <nslater> there are many more examples in the wild you know
09:15:47 <deltab> nsh: B1FF
09:15:51 <cr`x> nslater, i know
09:15:52 <nslater> another variation is just removing garfield
09:16:00 <cr`x> yeah, those are pretty good too
09:16:08 <nsh> deltab, B4SH B00M
09:16:13 <nslater> it's not as good as the flickr album meme
09:16:14 <nsh> no wait
09:16:17 <cr`x> But I think this particular sequence really distills the art form to its essence
09:16:23 <nsh> who was the other guy from back to the future?
09:16:27 <cr`x> Marty?
09:16:30 <nsh> small, had a skateboard
09:16:33 <cr`x> M4RTY.
09:16:39 <nsh> developed a comical disease
09:16:55 <cr`x> M4RTY THE FUCK MCF|_Y, OK
09:17:00 <deltab> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B1FF
09:17:03 <nslater> .title http://www.flickr.com/groups/cdcovermeme/
09:17:03 <phenny> nslater: Flickr: CD Cover Meme
09:17:12 <nslater> 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
09:17:14 <nslater> The first article title on the page is the name of your band.
09:17:17 <nslater> 2. www.quotationspage.com/random.php3
09:17:17 <nslater> The last four words of the very last quote is the title of your album.
09:17:19 <nslater> 3. www.flickr.com/explore/interesting/7days/
09:17:21 <nslater> The third picture, no matter what it is, will be your album cover.
09:17:39 <nsh> deltab, ah, a more 'nother memory
09:18:03 <nsh> B1FF became...
09:18:09 <nsh> um
09:18:12 <cr`x> NSH!
09:18:21 <nsh> (but before that)
09:18:22 * cr`x rofl, drinkz, rofl
09:18:38 <nsh> damnit
09:19:18 <deltab> nslater: yeah. the CK is in a different font
09:21:14 *** umi (n=derosaj@cpe-74-71-113-223.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
09:21:42 *** umi has parted #swhack ("Ex-Chat")
09:22:46 <nsh> JeffK!
09:22:53 <nsh> B1FF becamse JeffK
09:23:00 <nsh> but with less esse
09:23:01 <nsh> s
09:28:56 <cr`x> Ok, swhack, what music should I listen to?
09:29:02 <nslater> manu chao
09:29:06 <cr`x> yikes
09:29:13 <nslater> what?
09:29:24 * nslater puts on manu chap
09:29:28 <nslater> chao
09:29:28 <cr`x> Just wouldn't be my first choice.
09:29:39 <nslater> well, you know who he is, which is pretty surprising
09:29:45 <cr`x> But the record that comes up when I search for Manu Chao is 'Maple Cross', so we'll go with that
09:29:51 <nslater> um...
09:29:53 <nslater> wat?
09:29:57 *** tommorris_ is now known as tommorris
09:30:07 <cr`x> well, not 'search', as much as 'type'
09:30:25 <nslater> what are you searching?
09:30:33 <cr`x> Strictly speaking it's 'Many' but that's only one artist on the Skampler comp
09:30:48 <cr`x> I'm just clicking on my artists list in iTunes and typing 'Manu Chao'
09:31:02 <nslater> search for "me gustas tu"
09:31:06 <cr`x> yikes. 128kbps.
09:31:10 <nslater> one of the best songs he ever did
09:31:20 <nslater> album "clandestino"
09:31:35 <cr`x> Hey, I KNOW Manu Chao, I just don't have any of his records
09:31:51 <nslater> woah, chill, im just recommending my favourite song :p
09:32:21 <nslater> okay, how about a bit of buena vista social club?
09:32:59 <cr`x> Uch. I can't do this 128 stuff. I'll do BVSC.
09:33:49 <cr`x> Buena Vista Social Club, Buffalo Daughter, Bugs, Built To Spill… and then Bunkur, the first band I actually feel like listening to
09:34:51 <nslater> are you accessing some sort of shared music library?
09:34:57 <cr`x> Nope
09:35:05 <nslater> do you have any People Under The Stairs?
09:35:33 <cr`x> Not a one.
09:35:38 <nslater> shame
09:35:43 <cr`x> Closest thing is Pere Ubu.
09:35:57 <nslater> close in name only, i assure you
09:36:14 <cr`x> To PUTS' detriment, I'm sure
09:36:23 <nslater> i dont think so :p
09:37:01 *** sdkay has quit ("blech.")
09:37:04 <cr`x> I've never been particularly interested in hip hop, sad to say
09:37:38 <nslater> it depends which subgenre you're looking at, most of it is terrible
09:38:07 <nslater> PUTS, Tribe Called Quest, Pharcyde, Jurassic 5 rule etc etc
09:38:25 <cr`x> I'm just not a particularly lyrically inclined person
09:38:37 <cr`x> I don't listen to what people are saying, so when it comes to hip hop they're aiming over my head
09:39:37 <nslater> How about reggae, dub, ragga?
09:41:19 <cr`x> Can't stand reggae. Dub i'm more down with. The less human the better. The long, bassy, drawn out, barely there stuff, I love.
09:41:54 <nslater> how about the bristol sound?
09:43:52 <cr`x> Nah…
09:44:01 <cr`x> Not for a good 5 years, anyway.
09:44:15 <nslater> theivery corporation rock my world :p
09:44:31 <thelsdj> my uncle makes a living off of selling his reggae vinyl from the 70's heh, one or 2 records here or there
09:44:38 <nslater> nice
09:44:46 <cr`x> Though there was a time when I was fucking obsessed with Ninja Tune
09:44:49 <thelsdj> he still djs too
09:45:08 <nslater> have you heard much of Nightmares On Wax?
09:45:15 <thelsdj> http://midnightdread.com/
09:45:15 <cr`x> About the same time I was reading a lot of RAW in fact
09:45:33 <cr`x> nslater: oh yeah, sure. to be honest I was not a big fan even when I was listening to a lot of downtempo
09:45:37 <cr`x> a little too pat for me
09:46:03 <nslater> shifting genres here, soulwax?
09:46:34 <cr`x> I've been around them a lot. I'm not sure I could name a single track though.
09:46:49 <nslater> ETalking was probably the biggest...
09:47:00 <nslater> ... though I tend to listen to the full sets they do, much more entertaining.
09:47:16 <nslater> do you have Brainfreeze?
09:47:32 <thelsdj> mmm brainfreeze
09:47:35 <thelsdj> and product placement
09:47:41 <thelsdj> i saw the new one live
09:47:44 <thelsdj> but haven't got on cd yet
09:47:45 <nslater> yes, i have both :)
09:47:55 <nslater> i also have a collection of the original cuts on lp
09:48:00 <thelsdj> (the hard sell)
09:48:00 * nslater grins from ear to ear
09:48:15 <thelsdj> hard sell live kinda sucked, i haven't heard the release though
09:48:25 <thelsdj> i think when i heard it they were just starting playing it
09:48:29 <thelsdj> so didn't have it down yet
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09:48:32 * nslater laments the breakup of jurassic 5
09:48:32 <cr`x> I do have brainfreeze, and product placement, but again I haven't really listened to them for a good 5 or 6 years
09:48:56 <nslater> cut chemist is in Juno, which really made me chuckle when I saw him
09:48:57 <thelsdj> hmm, doesn't seem like hard sell is out yet
09:49:45 <thelsdj> 70 minutes of madness is a classic
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10:01:59 <nsh> .gs the prospect of immanent *
10:02:00 <phenny> the prospect of immanent *: terrorist, satisfactions, fulfilment, forms, fission, drowning, death, danger
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10:02:15 <_bjoern> phenny, tell sbp http://www.break.com/index/mentos-boosts-your-confidence-with-ladies.html
10:02:15 <phenny> _bjoern: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
10:02:53 <nsh> .gs Nothing concentrates the mind like a *
10:02:53 <phenny> Nothing concentrates the mind like a *: hanging (11), threat (2), tax cut (2), deadline (2), tax cut local, sudden shortage, sneak, small dose, quiet corner, meeting, letter, gun pointed, good assessment, bullet whizzing
10:04:23 <cr`x> .g Nothing concentrates the mind like a hanging
10:04:24 <phenny> cr`x: http://www.internetevolution.com/messages.asp?piddl_msgthreadid=183341&piddl_msgid=154321
10:05:03 <cr`x> Johnson, ah.
10:05:39 <nsh> but he stole it from the buddha
10:05:46 <_bjoern> nu
10:06:15 <nsh> no, i stole the buddha's lima beans
10:06:32 <nsh> and they were sublime-a beans, mmmmm
10:08:40 <cr`x> phenny, de "nu"?
10:08:41 <phenny> cr`x: "nu" (de)
10:08:46 <cr`x> ahso.
10:09:38 <nsh> .ety cornucopia
10:09:39 <phenny> "1508, from L. cornu copiæ 'horn of plenty,' originally the horn of the goat Amalthea, who nurtured the infant Zeus." - http://etymonline.com/?term=cornucopia
10:11:24 * thelsdj listens to hard sell again
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10:23:01 <nsh> .wik Ecdysis
10:23:02 <phenny> "Ecdysis is the molting of the cuticula in arthropods and related groups (Ecdysozoa)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecdysis
10:23:13 <nsh> .w ecdysis
10:23:13 <phenny> ecdysis n. 1: Periodic shedding of the cuticle in arthropods or the outer skin in reptiles.
10:23:30 <nsh> hmm
10:23:46 <nsh> .g "On Ecdysis" essay
10:23:47 <phenny> nsh: http://lemming.mahost.org/johnmoore/ecstacy-ecdysis.htm
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10:35:38 <_bjoern> .gs The Weak Will *
10:35:38 <phenny> The Weak Will *: perish (5), suffer (4), fall (4), die (4), rise (3), not despise (3), inherit (3), become (3), prevail (2), lose (2), lament (2), invariably drown (2), flee (2), flag (2), drift (2
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10:36:45 <Monty> hi dmiles_afk
10:37:00 <_bjoern> It's a trick Monty!
10:37:07 <Monty> sure, im confused now would ever played, right now, i am i dunno where you're gloating and mazrim Taim's little bit... trite.
10:37:26 <_bjoern> Monty, I think twe can fill you in on the details.
10:37:31 <Monty> USUALLY FOR TEH BLONDE SAYZ "FUR HUNDRED BUCKZ ILL TAKE U HUM AND SAYZ "I WAZ TALKIN T TEH WURRLD.
10:37:31 <xover> Monty! Chaneling Robert Jordan!
10:37:33 <twe> Details on the french terms.
10:37:36 <Monty> @@@ http://fogonazos.blogspot.com/2008/03/most-amazing-natural-mirror-in-world.html
10:40:29 <_bjoern> great pix http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:KirkRomulan.jpg
10:40:43 <_bjoern> phenny, tell sbp http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:KirkRomulan.jpg
10:40:43 <phenny> _bjoern: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
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11:03:11 <nsh> .ety imbroglio
11:03:11 <phenny> "1750, from It. imbroglio, from imbrogliare 'confuse, tangle,' from in- 'in' + brogliare 'embroil,' probably from M.Fr. brouiller 'confuse' (see broil (2))." - http://etymonline.com/?term=imbroglio
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11:15:10 <_bjoern> .gs quantum *
11:15:11 <phenny> quantum *: mechanics (11), computation (6), physics (5), leap (5), computing (5), view (4), rehab (4), dots (4), tunneling (3), loyalty (3), electronics (3), diaries (3), view manage (2), the
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11:28:10 <_bjoern> .gs life is *
11:28:11 <phenny> life is *: good (11), beautiful (9), crap (6), short (4), rubbish (4), precious (4), peachy (4), fleeting (4), fine (4), adrip (4), wild's (3), wild (3), sacred (3), like (3), xampericious (2
11:28:29 <_bjoern> .gc xampericious
11:28:29 <phenny> xampericious: 131
11:30:36 <MoiraA> this is good
11:30:46 <MoiraA> the who
11:30:54 <MoiraA> tp-oku tommy
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11:31:12 <MoiraA> right behind youI see the glory
11:32:08 <MoiraA> huh? how is that possible
11:32:09 * MoiraA shrugs
11:32:25 <MoiraA> of you, I hear the story o you
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11:51:44 <bjoern_> .gs your * will be purged
11:51:46 <phenny> your * will be purged: transcripts (3), thoughts (3), email address (3), web server cache (2), schedule (2), resume (2), registration (2), profileapplication (2), print jobs (2), kind (2), data (2), book
11:54:25 <clsn> .gs god cannot *
11:54:26 <phenny> god cannot *: lie (12), exist (8), do (6), forgive (4), contradict (4), lie 1966 (3), be tempted (3), be (3), wait (2), penetrate (2), indwell (2), err (2), die (2), coerce (2), actualize (2), w
11:54:36 <clsn> .gs jesus cannot *
11:54:37 <phenny> jesus cannot *: save (6), move (4), heal (4), possibly (3), guarantee positions (3), exist (3), wither (2), win (2), solve (2), overcome (2), open (2), lose (2), forgive (2), fill (2), escape (2),
11:55:07 <nslater> .gs god can *
11:55:08 <phenny> god can *: judge (15), save (4), jugde (4), heal (4), forgive (4), explain (4), be (3), judgeme nass23q (2), explain lyrics (2), dwell (2), dumbness (2), dispense (2), bluestreak (2), bestow
11:56:11 <cthompson> one that's missing from that list, not many people know this, but jesus cannot tapdance
11:56:26 <nslater> prove it
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11:56:47 <cthompson> you cannot prove the absence of something
11:57:07 <cthompson> ipso facto
11:57:12 <nslater> prove it
11:57:12 <bjoern_> of course you can.
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12:20:39 * nsh_ frowns
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12:39:15 <Monty> hi Stwange, how ya doing?
12:39:39 <Stwange> I don't want to talk about it with a bot :)
12:39:51 <bjoern_> Who's a bot?
12:40:23 <Stwange> well that's a script if not a bot... there's no way he could greet me so fast otherwise, especially considering he doesn't know me
12:41:21 <bjoern_> Why not, you just write prepare the line, wait for someone to join, autocomplete the nick, and send it.
12:41:28 <bjoern_> That takes a lot less than a second surely.
12:41:48 <bjoern_> Of course it'd mean you are very very bored, but that's not unusual around this time of the day.
12:42:46 <Stwange> :)
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13:01:50 <cthompson> Monty gives a better conversation than many humans I know
13:01:51 <Monty> Ferrari == crocodile;
13:01:55 <cthompson> see?
13:06:38 * cr`x just mostly failed at making a beurre blanc
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13:09:15 <cthompson> it separate?
13:09:50 <cr`x> no actually
13:09:53 <cr`x> no problem at all with that
13:10:08 <cr`x> but it came out too vinegary by quite a bit
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13:11:48 <cthompson> live and learn
13:12:00 <cthompson> only cooking I did today was 4 cups of rice in the rice cooker
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13:36:06 <bjoern_> .gs space, the great *
13:36:07 <phenny> space, the great *: avenger (5), vegetable rebellion (4), gatsby (3), commons (3), beyond (3), thing (2), sciatic (2), sandworms (2), imitator (2), hall (2), extinction (2), escape (2), debaters (2),
13:36:58 <aspect> phenny: source?
13:42:39 <Stwange> I don't suppose any of you have any experience with SSH tunnelling do you? I'm struggling to get it working
13:43:05 <clsn> sbp has been falsely (afaik) accused of being a bot sometimes, owing to prompt greeting.
13:44:13 <kpreid> Stwange: I've used it a bit.
13:47:04 <Stwange> kpreid, ok I have a some machine ServerA that is running a program on port 8003, but only opens that port to other machines on the same LAN. I need to somehow get to that port from outside the LAN. I've got a shell account that allows port forwarding, and I'm hoping to get ServerA to SSH into ServerB, and open a reverse tunnel to listen on ServerB:8003, forwarding it through the tunnel to ServerA:8003
13:47:37 <Stwange> I've tried: ssh -i ~/.ssh/tunnel -R 8003:machine.only.accepts.local.connections:8003 user@some.shell.net
13:48:11 <kpreid> ok, and what machine are you trying to connect from?
13:49:01 <Stwange> any machine, for this example I'm using this machine (which isn't either of the two), I'm trying to connect an RMI client to the RMI server running on port 8003 on ServerA
13:49:35 <kpreid> ok, a ssh forward by default listens only on the loopback interface
13:50:28 <kpreid> to make it bind to all interfaces you write -R :8003:machine.only.accepts.local.connections:8003
13:50:50 <kpreid> that is, a fourth parameter, which is either empty or '*', or an address to bind to
13:51:12 <kpreid> this is all documented in man ssh, -R
13:54:13 <aspect> Stwange: can you make a connection to 8003 from localhost?
13:54:40 <aspect> ah, beaten by kpreid
13:55:00 <Stwange> kpreid, I tried the : but came up with the same error. I'm not even sure if this port is open or not on ServerB :-S a port scan didn't show it as such
13:55:09 <Stwange> aspect, localhost on which machine?
13:56:48 <aspect> Stwange: ServerB -- that's both the machine you're sshing to and the machine running the service?
13:58:05 <Stwange> no, sorry aspect. ServerA runs the service, I can SSH to either. I'm trying to SSH ServerA->ServerB and then put a tunnel back of ServerB:8003 -> ServerA:8003 if that makes sense?
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14:03:24 <aspect> ah ok
14:03:39 <aspect> can you connect to localhost:8003 on serverA?
14:05:43 <Stwange> erm... I'm sure how to answer that anymore now I've done a bit of investigating
14:05:53 <Stwange> I can use an RMI client to connect to localhost:8003
14:05:58 <Stwange> but nmap doesn't show it open
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14:09:14 <Monty> hi xjrn, how ya doing?
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14:15:07 <Stwange> aspect, yes I can connect to localhost:8003 using telnet on ServerA (it just doesn't show as open with a portscan)
14:23:56 <Stwange> $ ssh -i ~/.ssh/tunnel -R :8003:some.server.com:22 stwange@some.server.com - I'd expect to be able to SSH into some.server.com on port 8003, but I can't - am I doing the whole port forwarding thing wrong?
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14:47:25 <cthompson> I just use SSHKeychain for OSX
14:47:31 <cthompson> point click, drag drop :)
14:48:03 <Stwange> :) it's not the SSH that's causing an issue, that works fine. It's forwarding the port
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15:04:37 <aspect> the leading : doesn't look right to me
15:07:24 <bjoern_> .gs I bet she gives great *
15:07:25 <phenny> I bet she gives great *: helmet (69), head (8), helment (2), blowjobs (2), smurf, shmooze, oo, microphone, jobs, head too, handjobs, hand, gifts, diva, brain
15:07:52 <bjoern_> .gs I bet he gives great *
15:07:52 <phenny> I bet he gives great *: head (10), hugs (4), helmet (4), massages (2), gummy (2), face (2), tongue nicci, thread, talks, skull zzzing lol, phone sex, pedicures, leg drops, kisses, hug's, helmet juggernaut
15:07:59 <bjoern_> .gs I bet it gives great *
15:07:59 <phenny> I bet it gives great *: head (7), results (2), views, exp, boobage
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15:13:13 <bjoern_> .gs light will become *
15:13:14 <phenny> light will become *: brighter (6), steady (3), elliptically (3), depolarized (3), void (2), visible (2), symbiotic (2), stable (2), scintillating (2), famous soon enough (2), ellipti (2), ceo effective
15:13:21 <bjoern_> .gs darkness will become *
15:13:21 <phenny> darkness will become *: light (17), darker (3), like morning (2), lights (2), famous soon enough (2), deeper (2), bright (2), your weapon, your ally, wu-wei, wu, very very important, thicker, the hushed,
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15:45:42 <nslater> if anyone is in the mood for some tafting, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Out-of-place_artifacts
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15:59:44 <Stwange> ok, in case anyone is curious as to the SSH tunnelling problem I was having earlier, you can only bind a port on the server you connect to to listen on 127.0.0.1, ie. if the IP is 225.0.0.2 and you bind 8000, 225.0.0.2:8000 won't work, but 127.0.0.1:8000 from that machine will
16:00:17 <aspect> nslater: damn you
16:00:39 <nslater> aspect: sorry :p
16:05:14 <deltab> nslater: souvenirs?
16:05:31 <nslater> deltab: im sorry, you lost me
16:05:42 <deltab> nslater: out-of-place artifacts
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16:13:35 <bjoern_> phenny, tell sbp http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h0pbwTY3JEyukOOwZnxTtzJBRQRQ ...
16:13:35 <phenny> bjoern_: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
16:28:24 * nslater has ended up at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Sunshine_of_the_Spotless_Mind
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16:38:58 <therethinker> Hallo!
16:39:07 <nslater> hei
16:39:18 <therethinker> .title http://garfieldminusgarfield.tumblr.com/
16:39:19 <phenny> therethinker: garfield minus garfield
16:39:23 <therethinker> Its... awesome
16:39:33 <bjoern_> .gs therethinker is *
16:39:33 <phenny> therethinker is *: glad sbp, dead, afraid, a
16:39:35 <nslater> ugh, not again with this meme :p
16:39:47 <therethinker> Its a meme?
16:39:55 <nslater> yes, an old one ;)
16:39:58 <therethinker> .gc "therethinker is glad sbp"
16:39:59 <phenny> "therethinker is glad sbp": 1
16:40:04 <therethinker> Hmm... never saw it
16:40:08 <nslater> .g "therethinker is glad sbp"
16:40:08 <phenny> nslater: http://swhack.com/logs/2007-11-04
16:40:14 <therethinker> .g "therethinker is dead"
16:40:14 <phenny> therethinker: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/10/19/%23ubuntu-mythtv.txt
16:40:43 <bjoern_> .gs nslater is *
16:40:45 <phenny> nslater is *: a (5), located (3), there, now, not, having, embarassed, around
16:40:56 <nslater> interesting
16:40:56 <therethinker> Hmm
16:41:05 <nslater> .g "nslater is located"
16:41:06 <phenny> nslater: http://www.factbook.org/wikipedia/en/s/sl/slater__missouri.html
16:41:12 *** bjoern_ is now known as _bjoern
16:41:34 <nslater> nSlater is located at 39°13'18" North, 93°3'45" West (39.221658, -93.062529)1.
16:41:45 <therethinker> Ha!
16:41:52 <nslater> .g nslater embarassed
16:41:52 <phenny> nslater: http://dev.pocoo.org/projects/pocoo/irclogs/2007/07/14
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16:43:29 <therethinker> nslater WoahLookAResult
16:43:34 <nslater> huh?
16:43:52 <therethinker> now when you do .gs again, later, that will show up
16:44:16 <therethinker> aren't I clever
16:44:49 <therethinker> aren't I!?!?!?
16:44:55 <therethinker> Interrobang!?
16:45:03 <nslater> .u Interrobang
16:45:04 <therethinker> Shabang#!
16:45:04 <phenny> U+203D INTERROBANG (‽)
16:45:25 <therethinker> bang bang she goes...
16:46:21 <therethinker> Oh well, I'm off, again
16:46:22 <therethinker> 'night
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16:46:26 <nslater> .o/
16:46:27 <nslater> bah
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18:16:20 <pierpa> .gs sedicente *
18:16:21 <phenny> sedicente *: traceur (4), filosofo (4), repubblica (3), realeza homÃrica (3), stupido (2), preteÃrico (2), neutralismo (2), medium - arcana (2), esteta (2), anarchico (2), ambrogio fusella (2),
18:16:43 <pierpa> .gs * sedicente
18:16:48 <phenny> * sedicente : No results!
18:16:58 <pierpa> .weather
18:16:59 <phenny> TypeError: len() of unsized object (file "/var/www/inamidst.com/htdocs/phenny/modules/weather.py", line 87, in f_weather)
18:17:06 <nslater> wooops
18:17:14 <nslater> sbp: ".weather" is broken
18:17:17 <nslater> oops
18:17:21 <pierpa> .weather lirf
18:17:29 <phenny> Clear ☼, 5℃, 1012mb, Light breeze 4kt (↑) - LIRF 7:20, 0620Z
18:17:30 <nslater> phenny: tell sbp ".weather" is broken (with no suffix)
18:17:30 <phenny> nslater: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
18:17:36 <pierpa> pfiuuu
18:18:26 <pierpa> .weather helsinki
18:18:28 <phenny> Cloudy, 2℃, 1006mb, Light breeze 6kt (↑) - EFHF 8:20, 0620Z
18:18:42 <pierpa> .weather north pole
18:18:44 <phenny> Clear ☼, 28.4℉ (-2℃), 29.94in (1011mb), Light breeze 4kt (↑) - KDRO 22:53, 0553Z
18:18:52 <pierpa> hmmm
18:18:53 <nslater> Light breeze
18:19:02 <pierpa> .g KDRO
18:19:03 <phenny> pierpa: http://www.kdro.com/
18:19:06 <nslater> .weather hell
18:19:07 <phenny> HELL: no such ICAO code, or no NOAA data
18:20:08 <pierpa> KDRO: Flughafen Durango/La Plata County
18:21:33 <pierpa> DURANGO LA PLATA USA KDRO USA (COLORADO)
18:21:47 <pierpa> .weather south pole
18:21:48 <phenny> SBSR: no such ICAO code, or no NOAA data
18:21:57 <pierpa> .weather north pole
18:21:58 <phenny> Clear ☼, 28.4℉ (-2℃), 29.94in (1011mb), Light breeze 4kt (↑) - KDRO 22:53, 0553Z
18:22:07 <pierpa> .weather milano
18:22:07 <phenny> LIMB: no such ICAO code, or no NOAA data
18:22:14 <pierpa> .weather malpensa
18:22:15 <phenny> Cloudy, 7℃, 1010mb, Mist, Calm 0kt (↑) - LIMC, 7:20, 0620Z
18:22:23 <pierpa> .weather orio
18:22:23 <phenny> ORIO: no such ICAO code, or no NOAA data
18:22:28 <pierpa> .weather orio al serio
18:22:29 <phenny> Scattered, 8℃, 1011mb, Mist, Light air 3kt (↻) - LIME, 7:20, 0620Z
18:22:38 <pierpa> .weather catullo
18:22:39 <phenny> Scattered, 6℃, 1012mb, Mist, Light air 2kt (↑) - LIPX, 7:15, 0615Z
18:22:48 <pierpa> .weather pratica di mare
18:22:49 <phenny> Clear ☼, 5℃, 1012mb, Light breeze 5kt (↑) - LIRE 6:55, 0555Z
18:23:06 <pierpa> phenny: thanks!
18:23:39 *** est has quit ("leaving")
18:27:56 *** est (n=est@adsl-71-142-71-85.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #swhack
18:39:01 *** tobbez has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
18:41:42 *** tobbez (n=tobbez@85.8.4.157.static.se.wasadata.net) has joined #swhack
18:49:11 <_bjoern> .weather edfm
18:49:12 <phenny> Clear ☼, 5℃, 1007mb, Gentle breeze 13km/h (7kt) (↑) - EDFM 7:20, 0620Z
18:50:47 <_bjoern> .gs the * will perish
18:50:47 <phenny> the * will perish: wicked (10), sword (7), skins (5), unrighteous (4), weak (3), nations (3), wise (2), ungodly (2), unfit (2), unbeliever (2), tusk (2), sinners (2), philistines (2), law gentiles (2
18:51:10 <_bjoern> .gs * is fu
18:51:11 <phenny> * is fu: silverman (4), tither (2), owl, nardil, kimmel's girl, kimmel, chamers, budden, anither
19:48:15 <_bjoern> .gs expectations were *
19:48:16 <phenny> expectations were *: disappointed (9), exceeded (6), realized (5), fulfilled (5), too high (4), surpassed (4), entertained (4), unreasonable (3), unre (3), unfounded (3), dashed (3), belied (3), unreal
20:02:58 *** jewel_ (n=jewel@dsl-242-144-167.telkomadsl.co.za) has joined #swhack
20:16:01 <_bjoern> .help
20:16:04 <_bjoern> phenny, help
20:16:04 <phenny> _bjoern: Hi, I'm a bot. Say ".commands" to me in private for a list of my commands, or see http://inamidst.com/phenny/ for more general details. My owner is sbp.
20:17:07 <_bjoern> That does not work very well...
20:25:28 <_bjoern> .ety specimen
20:25:28 <phenny> "1619, 'pattern, model,' from L. specimen 'indication, mark, example, sign, evidence,' from specere 'to look at' (see scope (1))." - http://etymonline.com/?term=specimen
20:27:11 <thelsdj> woa this is pretty cool
20:27:18 <thelsdj> watching Eve Online tournament
20:27:29 <thelsdj> http://eve-online.tv/tournament.aspx
20:34:45 *** kwijibo (n=kwijibo@87.113.10.93.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #swhack
20:40:45 *** cre8radix|off is now known as cre8radix
20:42:03 <cre8radix> hey thelsdj
20:43:56 <sbp> yo
20:43:56 <phenny> sbp: 08 Mar 22:22Z <_bjoern> tell sbp http://www.break.com/index/mentos-boosts-your-confidence-with-ladies.html
20:43:58 <phenny> sbp: 08 Mar 23:00Z <_bjoern> tell sbp http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:KirkRomulan.jpg
20:43:59 <phenny> sbp: 04:34Z <bjoern_> tell sbp http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h0pbwTY3JEyukOOwZnxTtzJBRQRQ ...
20:44:00 <phenny> sbp: 06:38Z <nslater> tell sbp ".weather" is broken (with no suffix)
20:44:04 <_bjoern> p
20:46:20 <cre8radix> hey sbp
20:50:16 <_bjoern> phenny is not authed
20:50:22 *** chris2 (n=chris@p5B16B685.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #swhack
20:51:45 <sbp> so was that an actual advert that airs in the states?
20:52:13 <sbp> phenny: tell d8uv http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:KirkRomulan.jpg
20:52:13 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when d8uv is around.
20:52:22 <_bjoern> Oh you know everything is possible in the "U.S."
20:52:37 <sbp> “faith and globalization”
20:52:42 <sbp> yes, good point
20:52:51 <sbp> I hear that people even use RDF there
20:55:58 <_bjoern> Romulan Data Forgery?
20:56:55 <sbp> .title http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/03/08/180252.shtml
20:56:56 <phenny> sbp: Slashdot | Sun Is Porting Java To the iPhone
20:57:08 *** _bjoern has quit ("Quit")
20:57:20 *** _bjoern (n=bjoern@dslb-084-056-240-049.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
20:58:13 <_bjoern> Hmm, that didn't help. Most uppercase letters are rendered all weird...
20:58:20 <sbp> .title http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/08/03/08/1650259.shtml
20:58:21 <phenny> sbp: Slashdot | HD-DVD and the Early Adopter Premium
20:58:22 <_bjoern> like, too big, too bold
20:58:24 <sbp> - is an interesting one
20:58:38 <sbp> .gc plithering
20:58:39 <phenny> plithering: 22
20:59:16 *** panpot (n=panpot@dslb-088-068-213-060.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
21:01:53 <sbp> interesting car accessory: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44478000/jpg/_44478998_islington_tree203.jpg
21:01:58 <sbp> panpot: welcome to Swhack
21:02:03 <sbp> this is a publically logged channel
21:02:31 <_bjoern> On Swhack, the weak perish quickly.
21:03:33 <_bjoern> It's a recreational asset, for business people who want to combine working in their car and working under a tree.
21:04:15 <sbp> http://es.geocities.com/samarcantro/eeeep.jpg
21:04:38 <_bjoern> What have we done to you that you post that?
21:04:41 <sbp> heh, heh
21:04:46 <_bjoern> .gs you look like the * himself
21:04:47 <phenny> you look like the * himself: devil (10), wolverine, weary pilgrim, sand monster, master, man, good man, big man
21:04:49 <_bjoern> .gs you look like the * herself
21:04:51 <phenny> you look like the * herself: rain queen, mummy, moon spirit, may queen, goddess parvathi, dame, bride, blond girl said to
21:06:30 *** jewel_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
21:07:06 <sbp> headline of the day:
21:07:08 <sbp> .title http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=110259&in_page_id=2
21:07:08 <phenny> sbp: Japanese model gets off thanks to large breasts | Metro.co.uk
21:08:17 <_bjoern> .ety bairn
21:08:18 <phenny> "'child' (of any age), O.E. bearn, probably related to beran ('bear (v.), carry, give birth')." - http://etymonline.com/?term=bairn
21:09:33 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7266624.stm
21:09:36 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Indonesia spray paints commuters
21:09:45 <sbp> THE YOUNG ARE EXCEPTIONAL:
21:09:47 <sbp> .title http://au.news.yahoo.com/080306/2/162g1.html
21:09:49 <phenny> sbp: Boy, eight, aces Brazil law school exam - Yahoo!7 News
21:09:56 <sbp> THE OLD ARE EXCEPTIONAL:
21:09:59 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7275861.stm
21:10:00 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | England | London | Man, 101, to run London Marathon
21:10:39 <_bjoern> You know, all your uppercase letters come out at different heights...
21:10:45 <sbp> SoRRy
21:10:53 <_bjoern> SO YOUR SCREAMING IS RATHER WAVY IN APPEARANCE
21:10:57 <sbp> what did you do to break your client so?
21:11:12 <_bjoern> I suspect it's fontforge's fault
21:11:20 <_bjoern> not properly creating the font i'm using
21:13:04 <sbp> it was working before though? why did you recreate it?
21:13:10 <sbp> were you adding codepoints or something?
21:13:53 <_bjoern> http://g.photos.cx/wavy-07.png
21:14:07 <_bjoern> Well, as you remember, some time ago I tried to merge Verdana und Arial Unicode MS
21:14:18 <sbp> that's hilarious. I'd just keep it like that
21:14:27 <_bjoern> That did not work in fontforge, so I merged Verdana and ... Lucida Unicode I think
21:14:27 <sbp> WOAH DUDE IT LOOKS SO TRIPPY AND STUFF
21:14:53 <sbp> SCREAMING is especially good
21:14:58 <_bjoern> And every other month the glyphs come out weird like this
21:15:10 <_bjoern> For no apparent reason
21:15:24 <sbp> phase of the moon bug!
21:15:51 *** chris2_ (n=chris@p5B16B685.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #swhack
21:19:32 <sbp> .gc semi-legendary
21:19:38 <phenny> semi-legendary: 72,200
21:22:43 *** chris2 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
21:50:29 *** chris2_ is now known as chris2
22:06:13 *** jewel (n=jewel@dsl-242-144-167.telkomadsl.co.za) has joined #swhack
22:10:43 * sbp finds http://www.mail-archive.com/couchdb-user@incubator.apache.org/msg00000.html
22:21:08 <thelsdj> BAN NSLATER THEY ARE IS SPY!
22:22:04 <sbp> .gc phreno-mnemotechnic
22:22:05 <phenny> phreno-mnemotechnic: 83
22:23:30 <thelsdj> being a philisophical classification of all the homophonic words of the english language
22:25:16 <sbp> yep
22:25:20 <sbp> it's pretty great
22:25:40 <xover> Hmm. No Java on the iPhone. I wonder if they've included Perl on there…
22:25:41 <thelsdj> these eve tournament videos are awesome
22:25:46 <thelsdj> xover: nope
22:25:53 <xover> You checked?
22:25:54 <sbp> python?
22:25:58 <thelsdj> nope
22:26:08 <thelsdj> you couldn't even port those if you wanted
22:26:13 <xover> Oh?
22:26:14 <thelsdj> no interpreted code allowed
22:26:20 <sbp> I CHARGE APPLE WITH GRAND ARSENEY
22:26:27 <xover> EXPN?
22:27:20 <thelsdj> http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2008/03/06/apple-bans-firefox-spidermonkey-lisp-lua-ruby-python-rhino-java-opera-gcc/
22:27:29 <thelsdj> "Apple Bans Firefox, SpiderMonkey, Lisp, Lua, Ruby, Python, Rhino, Java, Opera, .NET, Squeak, Quake, Unreal, Second Life, GCC, GDB, GNOME, KDE, Photoshop, Word, Excel, Flash, Freetype and Zork"
22:28:12 <xover> Hmm.
22:29:32 <xover> I think that targets more run-time plugins, and ways to circumvent Apple's runtime (and hence its restrictions), than “Interpreted Code” as such.
22:29:44 <thelsdj> also, for me the bigger pissoff is that theres no way to run code in the background, unless you are the foreground app running on the phone, your program is dead, absolutely no support i've seen so far for any way to notify the OS that your app might want to do something at some other point in time, unless some other app calls your app using a url
22:30:12 <xover> Yeah, that's fairly limiting.
22:30:42 <thelsdj> but, i'm drinking the koolaid anyways
22:37:20 <xover> Hmm, yes. The above blog post is a bit sensational; it seems very likely that this prevents an app, once installed on the iPhone, from downloading executable code directly, but not, say, using CamelBones to develop an iPhone app.
22:38:19 * sbp sends a note about the Phreno-Mnemotechnic Dictionary to Paul Collins
22:38:41 <xover> Of course, if Perl isn't available on the iPhone allready, porting it will be quite a job. Would be nice to get confirmation from Apple on what that license restriction actually means before starting.
22:38:49 <thelsdj> i dunno, i think you'd have a hard time convincing apple to distribute any app that isn't just linked against their frameworks and not much else
22:39:11 <thelsdj> and yea theres the issues that apple might refuse to distribute gpl'd apps
22:39:37 <xover> The GPL thig is a non-issue.
22:40:25 <xover> Unless and until Apple actually refuses to distribute a GPL'ed app, that's just FUD with no basis in anything but paranoia.
22:40:32 <thelsdj> agreed
22:40:58 <xover> Hmm. But loads of apps link to an internal framework.
22:41:19 * sbp watches Countryfile
22:41:57 <xover> Hmm. No. Read the quoted bit of the license again.
22:43:04 <xover> [[[
22:43:05 <xover>  No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for
22:43:05 <xover>  code that is interpreted and run by Apple’s Published APIs and builtin
22:43:05 <xover>  interpreter(s)… An Application may not itself install or launch other
22:43:05 <xover>  executable code by any means, including without limitation through the use of
22:43:05 <xover>  a plug-in architecture, calling other frameworks, other APIs or otherwise.
22:43:07 <xover> ]]]
22:43:49 <sbp> .gc "sea bed sanctuary"
22:43:50 <phenny> "sea bed sanctuary": 0
22:43:55 <thelsdj> so i guess the question is whether apple will support more than just objective-c code, if not, its not 'apples interpreter(s)'
22:44:04 <xover> This says, once your app is installed on the iPhone, it is not allowed to download interpreted code (i.e. JavaScript) except if you're embedding WebKit and using JavaScriptCore to interpret it.
22:44:46 <xover> It also says your app, once installed, may not go out and download other executables off the Internet and install those on the phone (bypassing the AppStore etc.).
22:44:52 <sbp> .title http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/07/conservation.water
22:44:54 <phenny> sbp: Arran community imposes no-fishing zone | Environment | guardian.co.uk
22:45:21 <xover> It does _not_ say you cannot distribute Perl through the AppStore.
22:45:39 <xover> It does _not_ say you can distribute an app through the AppStore that relies on the previous Perl package.
22:45:58 <xover> It does _not_ say that you cannot have Perl embedded inside your .app bundle.
22:45:58 <thelsdj> hmm interesting
22:46:09 <sbp> .gc "Cloudspotter's Guide"
22:46:10 <phenny> "Cloudspotter's Guide": 23,400
22:46:16 <xover> It does _not_ say that you cannot have a CPAN module inside your .app bundle.
22:46:35 <xover> There may of course be other things that prevent all those, but the quoted bit of the license isn't it.
22:47:17 <xover> If anything, that would seem to prevent Java applets in web pages, Flash in web pages, etc.
22:47:28 <thelsdj> well, here's the questionable bit to me, the second half of that quoted bit, 'an application may not itself laucnh other executable code by any means'
22:48:00 <xover> “You're not allowed to Jailbreak the phone”
22:48:06 <sbp> rabbits cause £100m of damage per year, according to DEFRA
22:48:13 <sbp> can you jailbait it?
22:48:26 <xover> You mea the iPhone isn't by definition Jailbait?
22:48:52 <sbp> hmm, the Scottish executive are thinking about banning snares
22:49:36 <xover> Anything inside your .app bundle is fair game; but anything external to you (including on the phone or over the net) is off limits (executable code, not data).
22:51:02 <xover> Launching another app is through the use of URLs (you ask the iPhone OS to resolve the URL, I'm guessing); which means you can't easily be tricked into running “SIM Unlock.app” or similar.
22:51:47 <sbp> which sounds like a good idea, judging by this report alone
22:51:53 <xover> Hmm. Yeah. Without further data to the contrary, I think the license arts of this are probably fine.
22:52:39 <xover> But without Perl allready on there, it's going to be a PITA to distribute.
22:52:58 <thelsdj> well, heres a basic problem to your plan
22:53:12 <xover> Either all CamelBones apps will need to say “Install Perl.app first”; or they'll have to embed Perl.
22:53:14 <thelsdj> its actually not possible to run a program inside your app with the existing api
22:53:47 <thelsdj> and if your main entry point has to be objective-c theres no way to get _out_ to your perl
22:53:58 *** est has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:54:48 <xover> You don't launch perl.exe and feed it a string of text, as you would on the *nix command line.
22:55:08 <xover> Take a look at perlembed for one approach.
22:55:18 <xover> Sorry "perldoc perlembed".
22:55:32 <thelsdj> hmm, i guess if you can link against a perl framework should work
22:55:48 <xover> Right, which is the whole point of CamelBones.
22:56:19 <xover> But right now it still relies on the system having Perl installed (libperl.dylib, say).
22:56:43 <xover> And the alternative is to distribute the severel many megs of libperl.dylib with every single app.
22:56:53 *** darobin (n=robinb@m57.net81-66-103.noos.fr) has joined #swhack
22:58:00 <thelsdj> and then you have the problem of actually building libperl.dylib for the iphone
22:58:23 <xover> Yeah, that's where I see the challenge here..
22:58:46 <xover> Perl is quite cross-compileable, and the iPhone SDK + Emulator are nothiong but a big x-compile setup.
22:59:15 <xover> But the two aren't exactly speaking to one another, so there'll be a significant porting job there.
22:59:37 <xover> Then again, Jarkko did get Perl to run on Symbian, so it's definitely doable.
23:00:30 <xover> Hmm. And then there's a bootstrap problem with it.
23:00:51 <xover> Some modules need to be built with the version of Perl they'll be running in.
23:01:15 <xover> And you building a module _on_ the iPhone is probably right out.
23:03:49 *** iand has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:07:04 <xover> Oh, wait a minute…
23:07:37 <xover> Apple's frameworks have probably either disabled exec() and friends or wrapped them in the code signing thingy.
23:07:49 <thelsdj> totally disabled i think
23:07:53 <xover> What happens if you go by way of Perl's exec()?
23:08:07 <xover> Hmm.
23:08:28 <xover> There's some kind of an issue there, either at build-time or at run-time, I suspect.
23:12:11 <sbp> .gc piglifts
23:12:13 <phenny> piglifts: 1
23:12:18 <thelsdj> .gc shitrude
23:12:19 <phenny> shitrude: 150
23:12:23 <thelsdj> .g shitrude
23:12:24 <phenny> thelsdj: http://shitrude.com/
23:12:56 <sbp> SHITRUDE>
23:13:15 <xover> Oh, it jumped?
23:13:46 <sbp> appazzarrezzently
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23:17:26 *** darobin (n=robinb@m57.net81-66-103.noos.fr) has joined #swhack
23:17:48 <sbp> .dict laying
23:17:49 <phenny> laying -
23:17:54 <sbp> .dict lay
23:17:55 <phenny> lay -
23:17:59 <sbp> .w lay
23:18:00 <phenny> lay n. 1: A narrative song with a recurrent refrain
23:18:01 <phenny> lay v. 1: Put into a certain place or abstract location
23:18:02 <phenny> lay a. 1: Characteristic of those who are not members of the clergy.
23:18:02 <sbp> .wik Laying
23:18:04 <phenny> "Laying is the skill of making equipment level." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laying
23:19:00 <sbp> .ety lay
23:19:06 <phenny> "O.E. lecgan 'to place on the ground (or other surface),' also 'put down (often by striking),' from P.Gmc. *lagjanan (cf. O.S. leggian, O.N. leggja, O.Fris. ledza, M.Du. legghan, Du. leggen, O.H.G. lecken, Ger. legen, Goth. lagjan 'to lay, put, place'), causative of lie [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=lay
23:19:37 *** MoiraA has quit (Remote closed the connection)
23:20:40 *** MoiraA (i=moira@tor/regular/pdpc.supporter.active.MoiraA) has joined #swhack
23:21:13 <sbp> .wik Slacklining
23:21:14 <phenny> "Slacklining is a balance sport which utilizes nylon webbing stretched tight between two anchor points." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slacklining
23:21:20 <twe> A is in balance.
23:30:08 <_bjoern> .gc swhacklining
23:30:08 <phenny> swhacklining: 0
23:37:22 <sbp> .gc shishkin
23:37:22 <phenny> shishkin: 330,000
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23:56:40 *** xjrn has quit ("distraction complete.")
23:58:52 <MoiraA> morning