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00:08:46 <Arnia> nsh: depends whether you see them as errors or not. Being human and all, with human preferences and illusions of justice
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00:25:55 <_bjoern> phenny, tell sbp http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7342946.stm
00:25:55 <phenny> _bjoern: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
00:25:58 <_bjoern> countdown
00:25:58 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 25, 2, 10, 1, 2, 1. Your target is 254. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
00:26:07 <_bjoern> calc 10*25 + 2*2
00:26:07 <Monty> _bjoern: 254
00:26:28 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
00:26:30 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 16 milliseconds. I found all 648 solutions in about 94 milliseconds.
00:26:31 <Monty> ibot 25*10 + 1 + 2 + 1
00:26:34 <_bjoern> countdown
00:26:35 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 50, 6, 3, 10, 2, 2. Your target is 909. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
00:26:53 <_bjoern> calc 2*10*(50 - 3-2)
00:26:53 <Monty> _bjoern: 900
00:27:05 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
00:27:06 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 32 milliseconds. I found all 16 solutions in about 63 milliseconds.
00:27:08 <Monty> ibot ((10 + 2)*50 + 6)*3/2
00:28:00 <chandler> countdown
00:28:01 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 50, 7, 1, 6, 5, 6. Your target is 504. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
00:28:31 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
00:28:33 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 0 milliseconds. I found all 94 solutions in about 31 milliseconds.
00:28:34 <Monty> ibot (1 + 6 + 5)*7*6
00:28:42 <chandler> I'm no good at this.
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00:28:56 <_bjoern> this one was rather difficult
00:29:07 <_bjoern> you needed the big 6*7 number for the job
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00:29:26 <_bjoern> The 25, 2, 10, 1, 2, 1. Your target is 254. was a lot easier
00:29:39 <chandler> countdown
00:29:39 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 50, 2, 9, 6, 3, 9. Your target is 725. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
00:30:09 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
00:30:11 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 15 milliseconds. I found all 10 solutions in about 31 milliseconds.
00:30:12 <Monty> ibot ((2 + 6)*9 + 3)*9 + 50
00:30:27 <_bjoern> countdown
00:30:28 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 100, 9, 10, 6, 1, 1. Your target is 416. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
00:30:42 <_bjoern> Hmm
00:30:55 <_bjoern> That does not seem like it has a solution.
00:30:58 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
00:30:59 <Monty> Oh bugger, I don't think I can solve that one!
00:31:21 <chandler> calc 9/(1+1)
00:31:45 <chandler> hm. did I do it wrong?
00:31:55 <_bjoern> calc 9/(1+1)
00:32:13 <chandler> I was wondering if division was rational or truncation...
00:32:14 <_bjoern> calc 9^-1 * (1+1)
00:32:15 <sbp2002> you missed some!
00:32:27 <_bjoern> calc 1+1
00:32:28 <Monty> _bjoern: 2
00:32:31 <chandler> sbp2002: plz tell me what I missed
00:32:31 <sbp2002> I'd have to change the topic to: [Position Filled] Wanted: one off-log string for an IRC client doesn't recognize the comma as being it for real, vs. 16 that, well, didn't
00:32:32 <_bjoern> calc (1+1)
00:32:32 <Monty> _bjoern: 2
00:32:37 <_bjoern> calc 9/7
00:32:45 <_bjoern> odd
00:33:18 <chandler> countdown
00:33:19 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 50, 4, 1, 2, 8, 9. Your target is 476. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
00:33:35 <_bjoern> calc 9*(50 + 4) + 8
00:33:36 <Monty> _bjoern: 494
00:33:38 <chandler> 50*4*2+9*8
00:33:42 <chandler> calc 50*4*2+9*8
00:33:42 <Monty> chandler: 472
00:33:43 <_bjoern> calc 9*(50 + 4)
00:33:44 <Monty> _bjoern: 486
00:33:48 <_bjoern> calc 9*(50 + 4) - 8 - 2
00:33:48 <Monty> _bjoern: 476
00:33:49 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
00:33:51 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 0 milliseconds. I found all 266 solutions in about 47 milliseconds.
00:33:53 <Monty> ibot (50 + 2)*9 + 8
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00:39:47 <nslater> sbp2002: word up
00:39:48 <sbp2002> argh
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00:50:11 * therethinker finally found the gedit plugin repo
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01:05:29 <therethinker> .title http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-conduct-a-social-experiment-on-webcam-or-s/
01:05:29 <phenny> therethinker: How to conduct a social experiment on webcam (or simply play a joke on your friends) - Instructables - DIY, How To, life, tech
01:05:56 <therethinker> That's funny. Basically this person said that "she"'d show men her boobs if they could lick their elbow on camera
01:31:02 <aspect> only men?
01:31:13 <therethinker> Yeah...
01:33:13 <therethinker> Wow, did people see http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080411-vistas-uac-security-prompt-was-designed-to-annoy-you.html -- how UAC is designed to annoy!?
01:35:03 <aspect> that's quite a clever strategy
01:35:42 <aspect> usually things go the other way ... any semblance of a security model is removed or subverted to make the user experience less obtrusive
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01:48:34 <nslater> hey, anyone else using safari?
01:48:47 <nslater> nah, firefox on OS X
01:49:07 <nslater> therethinker: ?
01:51:50 <therethinker> nslater!
01:52:11 <nslater> nevermind, just got a really weird firefox bug where certain words start getting more and more bold
01:52:20 <nslater> but only if you select some text and giggle your mouse around
01:52:27 <nslater> ... I thought I was halucinating at first
01:54:53 <therethinker> Heh
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02:31:21 <Arnia> aspect: a security model which no one uses because it irritates too much is as bad as not having a security model at all. C.f. the post-it syndrome of frequently changing passwords
02:34:01 <aspect> Arnia: very true. Possibly it's worse. But that article makes it sound like MS is trying to place the irritation factor such that developers are encouraged to follow "more secure" practices.
02:35:04 <aspect> whether such practices lead to more security is another question altogether. It could lead to something like the old "nobody" user in unix
02:36:06 <aspect> cf. every daemon running as "nobody" and storing stuff in /tmp ... in fact, that sounds like exactly what it will encourage
02:36:31 <aspect> still, it's a step forward from every daemon running as root
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02:38:18 <Arnia> Meh... I'm not the biggest fan of the UNIX security model either
02:38:52 <Arnia> ACLs (whatever their form) aren't the best
02:39:29 * Arnia touts capability security a bit
02:42:19 <aspect> agreed.
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02:52:43 <Arnia> I've had the opinion voiced to me many times that UNIX is the perfect operating system; strangely I find it hard to believe that there is such a thing.
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02:59:16 <tonybaloney867> Arnia: I'd think *NIX to be much better if the command names didn't resemble noises from my digestive system
02:59:55 <Arnia> cdrmmvlscpcwd
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05:07:59 <tonybaloney867> okay, what is it called when a website uses a custom mouse cursor and/or custom scrollbars?
05:08:29 <bjoern_> Could you be more precise?
05:08:40 <bjoern_> Do you mean "annoying"?
05:09:02 <bjoern_> You can use the CSS cursor property for the former, and proprietary extensions for the latter.
05:09:46 <tonybaloney867> well, i'm visiting a website of a former employer and the mouse cursor changes to a little rhino with the redesign
05:09:57 <tonybaloney867> oh okay
05:10:45 <tonybaloney867> okay, yes it's the CSS cursor property according to the very messy source code....
05:10:52 <bjoern_> the proprietary scrollbar properties are called, like, scrollbar-3d-light-color
05:11:03 *** bjoern_ is now known as _bjoern
05:11:05 * tonybaloney867 still wonders what reasonable person approved the cursor property....
05:11:20 <_bjoern> You can use it to good effect
05:11:35 <_bjoern> I could dig up the list of people if you *really* care.
05:11:45 <tonybaloney867> no i don't really care
05:11:57 <tonybaloney867> but as long as someone uses it right, there's a reason for it :)
05:11:59 <_bjoern> It was before my time in the CSS WG anyway.
05:12:11 <tonybaloney867> ahhh gotcha
05:12:36 <tonybaloney867> However, this redesign is fairly bad
05:13:01 <_bjoern> Maybe the boss helped with the redesign
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05:16:13 <Monty> Likelihood of sporting events at large) with typesetting. Ultimately, it's a... lemme know / if [[ ("$TERM" = getattr(mod, name)
05:16:22 <_bjoern> shupfoo Monty
05:16:24 <Monty> "Screenshot of intarweb love.
05:16:34 *** _bjoern changed the topic to: "<Monty> jquery is I dunno if there's much sucks | <Monty> "Screenshot of intarweb love."
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06:18:27 <_bjoern> hmm http://qa-dev.w3.org/~bjoern/svgcc/?uri=http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-svg11-v.svg
06:18:37 <_bjoern> that used to work in Opera and Firefox but now works in neither...
06:18:55 <_bjoern> where now means using relatively recent development builds...
06:19:26 <_bjoern> (the element names should be in the dark yellow areas, properly scaled and rotated)
06:20:17 <_bjoern> If someone is bored and wants to figure out XHTML+inlineSVG stuff, I'd like to know why...
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06:21:20 <_bjoern> also, the spacing is borked in opera...
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06:22:05 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's dmiles_afk!
06:34:00 <_bjoern> http://g.photos.cx/opera950-after-4d.png
06:34:00 <_bjoern> http://g.photos.cx/opera950-before-3c.png
06:34:41 <_bjoern> That's how it looks in Opera, directly after loading the document (-before) and then restoring and remaximizing the browser window (-after).
06:35:01 <_bjoern> I filed a bug about at least part of this like 2 years ago
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06:36:26 <Monty> sbp: You asked me to remind you to WARNING
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06:49:50 <sbp> yo
06:49:50 <phenny> sbp: 00:45Z <_bjoern> tell sbp http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7342946.stm
06:49:56 <sbp> ooh, thanks Monty
06:49:57 <Monty> Please go on.
06:52:45 <_bjoern> .g RFC 2898
06:52:46 <phenny> _bjoern: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2898.txt
06:52:47 <_bjoern> .title
06:52:47 <phenny> _bjoern: Document isn't HTML
06:52:55 <_bjoern> too bad
06:53:01 <_bjoern> Guten Tag sbp.
06:53:13 <sbp> yo _bjoern
06:53:19 <sbp> oh, I knew something like this would happen
06:53:21 <sbp> *evil*
06:53:38 <sbp> Questia, upon me trying to cancel my free trial: “Your account could not be closed at this time. Please contact customer service at 713-358-2888. Thank you.”
06:53:58 <_bjoern> Of course that would happen.
06:54:03 <_bjoern> Why else make a free trial.
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06:57:37 * sbp sends them a firm but polite email via their Contact Us form, Subscriptions category
06:58:42 <_bjoern> [[[
06:58:53 <_bjoern> If you are migrating Silverlight applications that were created for the Microsoft Silverlight 1.1 Alpha September Refresh or earlier to the Silverlight 2 Beta 1 (MIX 08) release, the following strategy is recommended:
06:58:53 <_bjoern> 1. Get the newest version of Microsoft Silverlight 2 Tools for Visual Studio 2008. You can get these tools from the SDK or online at Getting Started. Make sure you uninstall any old tools you have on your machine before doing this install.
06:58:58 <_bjoern> 2. Create a NEW Silverlight application using the new tools from step 1 above.
06:59:01 <_bjoern> 3. Copy all your code/XAML over to your new project.
06:59:02 <_bjoern> 4. Debug.
06:59:04 <_bjoern> ]]]
06:59:18 <sbp> ah! this time it worked
07:05:10 <sbp> “While we’re at it, why do English people sound so weird when they’re on US TV shows? It’s a real phenomenon! I call it The Daphne Effect.” — Graham Linehan
07:06:40 <_bjoern> Silverlight 2.0 Beta supports socket-based communication to the same host but only pots 4502-4532; "Site of origin connectivity is intended only as an interim solution in Silverlight 2 Beta 1 until the full cross-domain model can be put in place for Silverlight 2."
07:08:47 <thelsdj_> phenny: "Ai, que coisa mais linda ! Amo cães , e esse tem um olhar meigo. É lindinho mesmo !"?
07:08:49 <phenny> thelsdj_: "ai, that prettier thing! i love dogs, and this has a look meigo. lindinho is same!" (pt)
07:09:05 <thelsdj_> i can't get a better translation of meigo and lindinho
07:09:09 <thelsdj_> its portugese
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07:12:58 <thelsdj_> sweet glance, still not sure what lindinho is
07:21:15 <jroes> phenny: "lindo?"
07:21:37 <jroes> ...inho is usually just an affectionate addition
07:22:07 <jroes> it's probably lindo: handsome
07:23:32 <jroes> so maybe "Such a pretty thing! I love dogs, and he looks so sweet. My little doggy is the same!" ?
07:24:08 * tonybaloney867 wishes people knew more about basic security :/
07:38:42 <_bjoern> hmm http://www.pfalzstorch.de/bilder/live1.html
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08:17:52 <xover> They have a Church Stork as well?
08:19:49 <_bjoern> The storks yes, and they live on top of theirs.
08:22:09 <xover> Ah, so the Church Storks have a Stork Church.
08:22:18 <sbp> hmm, another blue thing in the nest
08:22:24 <sbp> doesn't look like a piece of tissue this time
08:22:37 <sbp> looks more like a piece of paper or thin cardboard to me
08:22:59 <_bjoern> this was the hmm one http://g.photos.cx/nestz6we4f22827-44.jpg
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08:23:43 <sbp> hmm
08:23:47 <sbp> eat my arseshadow?
08:24:22 <_bjoern> EGG INCOMING LUL?
08:24:48 <xover> FORE!
08:25:50 <sbp> hehe
08:26:12 <sbp> check out current
08:27:08 <_bjoern> sbp http://wp1007209.wp014.webpack.hosteurope.de/bildgalerie_pfalzstorch/details.php?image_id=1621
08:27:25 <sbp> ooh!
08:27:39 <_bjoern> the image has turned into some kind of image map for me
08:27:44 <sbp> well found
08:27:48 * sbp checks
08:28:13 <sbp> oh yes, I see the link
08:28:31 <_bjoern> the beak's pointing at it
08:28:52 <sbp> hehe, yeah
08:28:52 <_bjoern> looks like portable coffee to me
08:32:33 <_bjoern> The name of the restaurant is "Lehrer Lämpel"
08:32:46 <_bjoern> that's the teacher (Lehrer) from Max und Moritz
08:32:52 <_bjoern> .wik Max and Moritz
08:32:56 <phenny> "Max and Moritz (A Story of Seven Boyish Pranks) is a German language illustrated story in verse." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_and_Moritz
08:33:50 <sbp> what kind of pranx do they play?
08:34:08 <sbp> “Many familiar with comic strip history consider it to have been the direct inspiration for the Katzenjammer Kids.”
08:34:19 <sbp> ah, I see the list of them
08:35:06 <_bjoern> How can anybody not know about Max and Moritz, that's, like, unpossible!
08:35:43 <sbp> dude I bet you don't know about... hmm let's think...
08:35:56 <sbp> Jimbo and the Jet Set!
08:36:32 <sbp> I was going to choose Postman Pat, but I figured that more likely had international showings
08:37:52 <_bjoern> Try to counter with something from 1865.
08:49:12 <sbp> all our old stuff is world famous! :-)
08:56:39 <xover> Postman Pat is still a classic for kids in .no.
08:56:55 <xover> Ask any kid of the right age and they'll tell you all about him.
08:57:15 * _bjoern ignored it after wikipedia had no de link for it
08:57:25 <xover> Various Disney/Pixar figures are slowly taking over, but…
08:57:44 <_bjoern> Pokemon is not disney/pixar...
08:59:10 <xover> Ugh. The Word “Document Map” uses like a 6pt font and keming.
09:07:51 <xover> That's just hideous.
09:14:16 <xover> Hmm. Could it be some kind of font substituation going on there?
09:15:55 <xover> Ugh. It's Tahoma 8pt.
09:16:18 <xover> And it seems it's actually set via a Style so you can change it.
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09:30:14 <thelsdj_> morning
09:30:40 <xover> No it's not! Why would you say that? Are you /trying/ to piss me off?
09:31:04 <thelsdj_> .yi
09:31:04 <phenny> Not yet...
09:31:11 <xover> Exactly!
09:31:13 <thelsdj_> its the morning after yi!
09:31:18 <xover> heh heh
09:31:41 <thelsdj_> i am/was drunk but i told my boss i would do some work tonight, so sobering up
09:32:05 <xover> Welcome to the show.
09:32:29 <thelsdj_> my gf just finally fell asleep and my sister is snoring like a bear
09:33:07 * xover is writing a policy document for technical security issues… :-(
09:34:44 <thelsdj_> glad i work in a 2 developer company where theres none of that crap
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09:36:35 <thelsdj_> ho darobin
09:36:41 *** thelsdj_ is now known as thelsdj
09:37:15 <thelsdj> ah now i know how to speak the language of ChanServ
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10:17:58 <Monty> But what does chris2 have to do with the price of fish?
10:18:07 <cre8radix> moin
10:19:51 <thelsdj> cre8radix: want to know what my favorite german hip-hop is?
10:20:46 <cre8radix> hell yeah
10:21:14 <thelsdj> Blumentopf - Saftig
10:21:15 <thelsdj> hehe
10:21:42 <cre8radix> hrhr
10:21:47 <cre8radix> they're funny
10:21:59 <thelsdj> kinda lame, not very original, but it seems to fill a craving i have
10:22:12 <cre8radix> :D
10:23:03 <thelsdj> the most annoying thing about that song is, they say 'super nintendo, playstation 2' when obviously the original is 'super nintendo, sega genesis' but maybe it rhymes better or theres some other reason i can't tell not knowing what the rest of the lyrics are
10:24:15 * cre8radix searches for the song
10:29:12 <cre8radix> ah thx
10:30:51 <cre8radix> thelsdj: back in 10mins
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10:39:43 <xover> Vaguely reminds me of <http://www.gatasp.no/mp3/Holdning_Over_Underholdning/Gatas_Parlament_11_Tredagern.mp3>.
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10:49:13 <Stwange> funny how things take off isn't it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7343833.stm
10:49:13 <Monty> <Ash> AHAHAHAHAHA TCS GIVE YOU
10:49:30 <xover> .title
10:49:35 <phenny> xover: BBC NEWS | England | London | Astley fans' rush hour 'flashmob'
10:49:58 *** leobard (n=Miranda@88-134-42-63-dynip.superkabel.de) has joined #swhack
10:49:58 <Monty> hi leobard
10:51:26 <xover> [[[
10:51:26 <xover> A British Transport Police spokeswoman said: "We monitored the incident. There
10:51:26 <xover> were no problems, no arrests. They did what they had to do and then left."
10:51:26 <xover> ]]]
10:51:56 <xover> I like how she phrases it “did what they /had/ to do”. :-)
10:52:02 <thelsdj> sbp2002: whats up?
10:52:03 <sbp2002> what's so interesting about his foot? has it had booted me off again
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11:24:57 <xover> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmkVWuP_sO0
11:24:57 <phenny> xover: YouTube - The Shining Recut
11:28:11 <Stwange> .title http://www.feministgamers.com/?p=373
11:28:14 <phenny> Stwange: Feminist Gamers » Blog Archive » Authorities bust illegal Pokémon fighting ring
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11:36:19 <nslater> .gc syllabogram
11:36:20 <phenny> syllabogram: 199,000
11:36:27 <nslater> .w syllabogram
11:36:30 <phenny> I couldn't find 'syllabogram' in WordNet.
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11:38:13 <Monty> bah, it's ebel again
11:38:38 <ebel> Monty, :P
11:38:43 <Monty> existent Murray Walker's shuttle has sex with documented lungs and whispering wonderful lightning ;)
11:43:47 <cre8radix> phenny: "supernintendo playstation 2, als wir noch pleite waren hatte niemand so ein teil"?
11:43:49 <phenny> cre8radix: "supernintendo playstation 2, as we still broke was not participated anybody so" (de)
11:44:28 <cre8radix> when we were still broke nobody has had such a gadget
11:44:32 <cre8radix> thelsdj: ^
11:45:15 <cre8radix> flatscreen and crocodile leather sofa
11:46:15 <cre8radix> my appartment is so large, i go to the toilet by moped
11:46:18 <cre8radix> hrhr
11:46:19 <cre8radix> well
11:46:22 <sbp> ehheh
11:46:33 <Stwange> that's how you end up large cre8radix
11:46:48 <cre8radix> lol
11:47:06 <Morbus> .
11:47:35 <cre8radix> whacky D is in da house
11:48:08 <cre8radix> thelsdj: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POZXbISwf44
11:48:21 <Stwange> ok afk
11:48:25 *** Stwange is now known as stwange_
11:48:30 <cre8radix> dance in my pants and in your face
11:48:44 <cre8radix> :D
11:50:17 <sbp> .ety supplicate
11:50:18 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "supplicate". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=supplicate
11:50:22 <sbp> .ety suplicate
11:50:23 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "suplicate". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=suplicate
11:50:30 <sbp> .ety supplication
11:50:30 <phenny> "1384, from O.Fr. supplication, from L. supplicationem (nom. supplicatio), from supplicare 'plead humbly' (see supple)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=supplication
11:52:26 * Arnia reads about OSGi
11:52:59 <sbp> phenny: ask nsh if he thinks there are any geysers on the moon. moon geysers
11:52:59 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when nsh is around.
11:53:13 <sbp> phenny: ask nsh and if so, what are they geysing?
11:53:14 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when nsh is around.
11:53:38 <sbp> soon humanity will have answers
11:54:27 <cre8radix> lol
11:54:33 <cre8radix> O_O
11:54:38 <cre8radix> OMG
11:54:54 <cre8radix> 42's the answer
11:55:00 <cre8radix> we need questions
11:55:28 <sbp> Hawaaaiiii
11:55:39 <sbp> 'i
11:55:54 <cre8radix> don't forget yer towel
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12:00:49 <xover> Cheese Fondue?
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12:19:58 <Arnia> "Writing specifications which spawns more specifications in some kind of cosmic meta-universe is what seems to be the primary purpose of specification writing committees, but I digress." — http://www.tensegrity.hellblazer.com/2007/03/distributing_osgi_differences_1.html
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12:34:40 <nsh> .wik flux quantum
12:34:40 <phenny> nsh: 12:13Z <sbp> ask nsh if he thinks there are any geysers on the moon. moon geysers
12:34:41 <phenny> nsh: 12:13Z <sbp> ask nsh and if so, what are they geysing?
12:34:43 <phenny> "The magnetic flux quantum Φ0 is the quantum of magnetic flux passing through a superconductor." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_flux_quantum
12:34:56 <nslater> .title http://www.datawrangling.com/google-paper-on-parallel-em-algorithm-using-mapreduce.html
12:35:00 <phenny> nslater: Google Paper on Parallel EM Algorithm using MapReduce » Data Wrangling Blog
12:35:53 <nsh> phenny, tell sbp if there aren't actively geysing geysers therealready, i demand geysification asap.
12:35:53 <phenny> nsh: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
12:40:17 <nsh> Quantization is a familiar phenomenon in systems
12:40:18 <nsh> where the boundary conditions give rise to standing waves.
12:40:28 <Arnia> nslater: let you tackle *some* large scale machine learning, in a certain way, with limited prospects for extension...
12:40:38 <nsh> if i was the kind of person who had bumper stickers, i would have that written on one
12:40:59 <nslater> Arnia: we have already established that we are in agreement :)
12:41:16 <Arnia> nslater: that's no fun :p
12:41:32 <nslater> Arnia: heh, I'm too tired to argue this morning :p
12:41:44 <nslater> morning? shit.. that went fast
12:41:47 * Arnia grumbles
12:42:03 <nslater> why would you grumble?
12:42:27 <sbp> .u place of interest
12:42:27 <phenny> sbp: 12:55Z <nsh> tell sbp if there aren't actively geysing geysers therealready, i demand geysification asap.
12:42:28 <phenny> U+2318 PLACE OF INTEREST SIGN (⌘)
12:43:51 *** nsh changed the topic to: "<Monty> jquery is I dunno if there's much sucks | <Monty> "Screenshot of intarweb love. | PLACE OF INTEREST SIGN (⌘)"
12:43:52 <nslater> .title http://www.interactivearchitecture.org/swarming-structures.html
12:43:54 <phenny> nslater: Interactive Architecture dot Org » Blog Archive » Swarming Structures
12:43:55 <Arnia> nslater: too little time
12:43:55 <nsh> ah
12:44:15 <nslater> Arnia: ah, every day.. every day :(
12:44:35 <nsh> (mirc's unicode-fu isn't as strong as titlebar's unicode-fu
12:44:36 <nsh> )
12:45:04 * Arnia hands nslater his thesis
12:45:15 <Arnia> Well, the abstract idea of it
12:45:24 <Arnia> Since I haven't written any of it yey
12:45:28 <Arnia> *yet
12:45:39 <nsh> what's the abstract idea?
12:45:53 <nsh> (bonus marks for nsh-comprehensible-english)
12:46:19 <nslater> .title http://validator.nu/
12:46:20 <phenny> nslater: Validator.nu
12:46:27 <nslater> hmm, any one know of this ^^?
12:46:43 <nslater> [[[
12:46:44 <nslater> In 2005 Validating a Custom DTD was published on A List Apart and illustrated how you could add custom attributes to HTML and have them validate. The problem with the approach outlined in that article is that DTDs are a thing from the past and that only the W3C validator cares about them. (Newer validators, such as Validator.nu, don’t have this issue.)
12:46:49 <nslater> ]]] - http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/04/custom-data
12:47:00 <Arnia> nsh: Requirements are developed by humans, wouldn't it be smart to analyse them as cognitive artefacts, rather than in terms of formal logic?
12:47:28 <xover> nslater: What about it?
12:47:33 <nsh> Arnia, ah
12:47:55 <nslater> xover: first I've heard of it, thats all - the article seems to be implying that it's quite well known
12:47:58 <nsh> using a model of cognition stated in terms of what?
12:48:20 <nsh> because i sense the danger of a certain degree of circularity in that rhetorical
12:48:45 <nslater> cf. http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/04/11/SVG-and-MathML-Annexes-to-HTML5
12:48:46 <nslater> .title
12:48:47 <phenny> nslater: Sam Ruby: SVG and MathML Annexes to HTML5
12:48:48 <xover> nslater: It is to the Hixiites; they needed a Validator to legitimise their CrackML.
12:48:57 <nslater> xover: lol :p
12:48:59 <xover> nslater: And Anne is solidly in that camp.
12:49:02 <nsh> CrackML sounds like a hit
12:49:35 <nslater> xover: hmm, Anne's essays always seemed pretty clued up, but it's been a while
12:49:45 <nslater> [[[
12:49:46 <nslater> The former feels OPMLish to me. I predict it won’t be long before we see escaped HTML inside data attributes “in order to validate”. And the RDF/A proponents will (correctly) point out that this isn’t enough information to reliably identify subjects, predicates, and objects.
12:49:52 <nslater> ]]]
12:49:53 <nslater> - Sam Ruby
12:50:14 <xover> Yes, Anne (and a few of the rest of them) are very good at making it sound like they have a clue.
12:50:21 * nslater grins
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12:53:14 <xover> Ah, yes. An excellent example.
12:54:02 <xover> Anne talks about named (character) entities; how they used to be defined in a DTD, but now that the web has got so big it's time to “formalise” them better and pull them into the spec directly.
12:54:38 <nslater> hmm, doesn't that break XML?
12:54:48 <xover> What she's actually saying is that it's the _browser_ that gets to define what entity references you have available to you; authors shoudl use whatever is supplied by the UA.
12:54:50 <Arnia> nsh: stated formally, but the difference is that the formal cognitive model is informed by evidence rather than being ad hoc
12:54:52 <nslater> well, I suppose HTML5 is not meant to be XML
12:55:01 <Arnia> nsh: and that is a crucial difference.
12:55:19 <xover> And when thinking about that it helps to know that Anne works for Opera.
12:55:28 <nslater> hmmm
12:56:24 <nslater> but, that does fit in with the vision that (in the best of my inderstanding) HTML5 is a reverse engineering of current behaviour, and then some
12:57:01 <Arnia> nsh: the formal cognitive model is an abstraction of the situation, but one which behaves the same way for all tests we've done so far. By contrast, formal analysis not only cuts things up differently, with differing primitives and division of labour, but also has total freedom to describe things however they want.
12:57:23 <xover> The facts is, the browser vendors have been so hell bent on ignorig standards and refusing to implement the bits they don't like, that they've created some kind of bizarro world where the W3C _Charters_ the HTML WG to only codify what the browser vendors want; the cart is so far before the horse that they couldn't fin eachether with advanced satellite surveillance any more.
12:57:55 <nslater> bwahahaha
12:58:02 <nsh> Arnia, interesting
13:00:45 <nslater> .yi
13:00:48 <phenny> Not yet...
13:00:51 <nslater> :(
13:03:30 * Arnia reads Anne's article
13:03:36 * Arnia bursts out laughing
13:05:25 <jsled> sbp2002: html5?
13:05:27 <sbp2002> interrobang is 203D
13:05:36 <jsled> .u ‽
13:05:36 <phenny> U+203D INTERROBANG (‽)
13:05:47 <jsled> sbp2002: correct!
13:05:48 <sbp2002> ♖♘♗♕♔♗♘♖
13:06:10 <Arnia> Who's going to play against him?
13:06:15 <xover> Oh god, that's right.
13:06:30 <xover> sbp2002: If you should happen to run across Hixie, do the world a favour and murder him before he can do serious damage.
13:06:31 <sbp2002> dp seems to be fairly easy to type
13:06:32 <Arnia> xover: yeah, scary until you realise it looks like one word to him
13:07:06 <Arnia> xover: question, why is Hixie so venerated?
13:08:39 *** darobin (n=robinb@m57.net81-66-103.noos.fr) has joined #swhack
13:08:46 <xover> I'm trying to think of some way I can answer that in public.
13:09:38 * nsh gives xover a soapbox
13:10:15 <xover> He's very very good at getting his way, and in deriding and belitteling his opponents without being obvious about it.
13:11:07 <xover> He's worked (briefly) with most of the Big Name companies; and right now is squeezing his Google association for all it's worth
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13:12:07 <Arnia> but that doesn't explain what feels like fawning to me
13:12:24 <xover> It lets him get away with making bombastic statements about The Web (without showing his data or methods) and poo poos everyone that questions it.
13:12:49 <xover> And when you get to make such statements with nobody calling you on it, you start to amass groupies.
13:13:16 <xover> And all of a sudden you've got a localized hype cycle going.
13:13:18 <nsh> a significant fraction of people are psychologically predisposed towards deferance to an authority figure
13:13:20 <jsled> hasn't he shown a lot of data and methods, though?
13:13:28 <nsh> this fraction varies only slightly in various fields of inquiry
13:13:35 <jsled> And challenged others to do the same when they make (somethings ludicrous) claims?
13:13:41 <jsled> s/things/times/
13:13:45 <xover> jsled: No, he's show his _conclusions_, never his data (it's Google proprietary).
13:14:36 <xover> Ah, yes. He likes to demand hard data for any change or suggestion he doesn't immediately feel is self-evident (as most of his own apparently are).
13:14:36 <jsled> good point. Do you believe he's making stuff up?
13:14:38 * nslater loves it how when Hixie talks about the HTML5 WG he used the word "me" or "I"
13:15:03 <nslater> *uses
13:15:59 <xover> jsled: No, I think he just… doesn't guard against biases etc., and probably feels he's been rigorous enough since nobody has ever been able to challenge him on it.
13:16:12 <sbp2002> heh, this is what I'm looking for RDF. if you're doing what they said
13:16:28 <nslater> [[[
13:16:29 <nslater> The Web is a big place, it's not the place to have a tiny, usually self-selected, group of self-proclaimed experts making the decisions for everyone based on their personal (or corporate) biases.
13:16:33 <nslater> ]]] - http://realtech.burningbird.net/semweb/accessibility-and-microformats/
13:16:38 * nslater nukes nsh
13:16:58 <nslater> - Ian Hickson
13:17:17 <xover> Granted, it's probably true that nobody that doesn't have Google's wast resources available to them would never be able to replicate his results even with access to the data.
13:17:52 * nsh read that in elmer fudd voice
13:17:55 <nsh> (because of the wast)
13:18:14 <nsh> made the conversation much more applicable to my interests
13:18:23 <nsh> mostly being laughter and imagination
13:18:26 <xover> Rule 34?
13:18:33 * nsh smiles
13:18:51 <nsh> don't tempt me to search for elmer fudd porn on other people's wifi connections
13:19:10 *** nslater changed the topic to: "<plum> am going out to lunch with my mum and an old implementation."
13:21:17 <nsh> but with the correct spelling and junk
13:22:48 <nslater> not from me you aint buddy
13:22:51 <nslater> oops
13:23:06 <nslater> [on] sorry for breaking the log continuity
13:23:21 <nsh> that's what judas said
13:23:28 * nsh chuxells to self
13:23:35 <nsh> actually, you've made me want a sauna
13:23:37 * nsh looks into that
13:23:49 <nslater> nah, I'm from a totally different part of the bible
13:23:55 <nsh> oh man
13:24:08 <nsh> that would be a cool imaginathing
13:24:22 <nsh> mmorpg of bibletimes!
13:24:30 <nsh> everyone has to inhabit a blockworld rendition of biblical history
13:24:50 <nsh> with all the temporal crazyness and divine intervenfuns it would entail
13:25:18 <nsh> there could be battles for jerusalem THROUGHOUT THE AGES
13:25:22 <nsh> all the time, all the place
13:25:48 <nsh> eventually, we could virtualise the whole fertile cresent religious crisis
13:25:56 <nsh> and then cancel the game due the patent dispute
13:26:09 * nsh wonders why he isn't in politics sometimes
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13:29:52 <nslater> phenny: tell darobin that sixtusXY in #couchdb wants to speak with him about using CouchDB with RDF
13:29:52 <phenny> nslater: I'll pass that on when darobin is around.
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13:41:36 <nsh> who's side are you on mangh
13:41:50 * nsh shakes the fist of goloch at sbpsaur
13:41:57 <nslater> darobin, speak!
13:42:07 <nslater> darobin darobin darobin
13:42:16 <nslater> plum, hit on darobin
13:42:21 <plum> theyd no need to be upset if i hadnt hit a nerve, them logging the hit is not the problem its publishing the link.
13:43:13 <sbp> mekano-pip: hit on darobin
13:43:14 <mekano-pip> darobin: THERE MUST BE MOAR T YU THAN YOAR TUMMUH.
13:44:40 <darobin> mmmmmm?
13:44:40 <phenny> darobin: 13:49Z <nslater> tell darobin that sixtusXY in #couchdb wants to speak with him about using CouchDB with RDF
13:45:01 <sbp> lol ambushed
13:45:02 <darobin> hey I don't want to use CouchDB with RDF
13:45:05 <nsh> mekano-pip, what's a tummuh?
13:45:06 <mekano-pip> nsh: TRY SEARCHIN TEH OPEN DIRECTORY.
13:45:10 <darobin> at least, I don't want to use RDF!
13:45:17 <nsh> mekano-pip, I'll search you, goddamnit
13:45:17 <mekano-pip> nsh: WOULD YU RECOMMEND THIZ ACSHUN TO FRIEND?
13:45:20 <nslater> darobin: oh, well, I was summarizzzzing
13:45:30 <nsh> you just can't fault mekano-pip man
13:45:50 <nslater> darobin: he's a semweb researcher and I mentioned that you might be doing something semwebbby
13:46:04 <nslater> darobin: and he was like OMG WHERE IS HE?
13:46:29 <nslater> but for summarizering RDF == semweb
13:46:37 * nslater ducks
13:49:16 <darobin> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/12/opinion/12perrottet.html?ex=1365739200&en=1250d847503ee3c0&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
13:49:20 <darobin> .title
13:49:21 <phenny> darobin: Beware of Greeks Bearing Placards - New York Times
13:49:35 <darobin> nslater: hehehe
13:49:48 <darobin> well, I'll be more active in that channel soonish
13:49:56 <darobin> right now I need to sort my apartment
13:50:01 <darobin> and find a a job :)
13:50:55 <nslater> heh
13:52:41 * Arnia throws the Active Web at darobin
13:52:57 <Arnia> I'd offer you one, but I don't know if I've got the funding yet :(
13:54:17 <nsh> jobs are for wage-slaves
13:54:35 <nslater> which translates as "jobs are for people who want money"
13:54:41 <nslater> which seems like a tautology to me :p
13:54:45 <Arnia> and people who need some bankrolling for travel expenses etc
13:54:56 <nsh> jus sayin'
13:55:02 <nsh> if you're not doing it because it simply has to be done
13:55:15 <nsh> you're a wage-slave
13:55:51 <nslater> it depends where you stop on the causal chain, what if the wage is needed to feed your 12 starving kids?
13:55:59 * nsh smiles
13:56:26 <Arnia> plus, who said being a wage-slave was necessarily a bad thing
13:56:47 <nsh> it's a great thing compared to starvation or homelessness
13:56:49 <Arnia> There are lots of jobs out there which need doing and yet people wouldn't do them unless they were compensated appropriately
13:56:58 <nsh> it's a pretty poor susbtitute for freedom and actualisation though
13:57:10 <nsh> but don't listen to me, read Bob Black
13:57:21 <nsh> he was a far more eloquent writen than i'll ever be
13:57:46 <Arnia> Well, depends on how strongly you believe that freedom is a fundamentally good thing
13:59:24 <nslater> freedom is a misleading word to use as it's meaning depends heavily on context and priorities
13:59:33 <nslater> or value system, rather
13:59:52 <nslater> and one freedom always trades another type of freedom
14:02:07 <Arnia> It also depends upon what level of society you're looking at
14:02:20 <Arnia> Emergence and all
14:02:26 * nsh smiles
14:02:41 <nsh> i would suggest that all it really takes is a keen sense of introspective positivism
14:03:36 <nsh> most people ought to be able to percieve the contrast through the faculty of memory between feeling free and uninhibited, and feeling necessitation towards application which doesn't result in such positive experience
14:04:20 <nsh> to deny that there is a vast experiencial spectrum between compulsion and liberation is sad
14:04:39 <nsh> *saddening
14:05:56 <Arnia> nsh: I'd disagree... you're pushing your value system onto others. The notion of being uninhibited is very much of your moral system.
14:06:09 <Arnia> +I think you're
14:06:10 * nsh frowns
14:07:41 <nsh> i cannot imagine that you're denying that such a spectrum is universal, quite irrespective of the conditions particular to each individual's location upon it
14:08:07 <nsh> what makes one person feel liberated can of course make another feel suffocated
14:08:24 <Arnia> I am denying it is universal. In fact, I'd require evidence to demonstrate that the notion of freedom even makes sense in all value systems.
14:08:26 <nsh> but that does not counter the fact that everyone is capable of feeling both, in degrees
14:08:31 <nslater> and so the word freedom is only meaning full given a locality on the spectrum, nsh
14:08:39 <nsh> very interesting
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14:09:21 <nsh> you appear to be starting from a value system, and then working inward to the experiences of a person holding it. whereas i am taking experience to be fundamental
14:09:55 *** idickinson (n=ijd@88-108-221-149.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #swhack
14:10:08 <nsh> it is only through the faculty of empathy that i am able to state that the differences in feeling at universal
14:10:15 <Arnia> nsh: no, I'm saying that the experience you're describing is *generated* by the value system you hold. It isn't an experience generated from outside, even if it is triggered by an outside event
14:10:24 <nsh> i involve no value-systems or situations in the analysis
14:10:38 <Arnia> nsh: yes you do. You just haven't recognised that
14:10:54 <Arnia> nsh: you've used the term 'freedom' which is a value judgment term
14:11:05 <nsh> i would beg to differ
14:11:07 <nslater> nsh, freedom inherently implies a perspective on the world, which reqires a value system
14:11:19 <nsh> i am using the term to refer to, for want of a better word, a quale
14:11:25 <nslater> o_O
14:11:31 <Arnia> nsh: I don't believe there is a quale of freedom
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14:11:56 <Arnia> nsh: freedom is a cognitive concept
14:12:03 <nslater> Arnia: what about that "natural state of things" w/r wild animals etc
14:12:11 <nsh> i would further argue that feelings are available to experience long before there is any conceptual system formed in development
14:12:17 <nslater> Arnia: is that not "pure" freedom?
14:12:23 <Arnia> nslater: animals have cognition...
14:12:24 <nsh> Arnia, i would politely propose that you are here conflating the map with the territory
14:12:38 <nsh> Arnia, the cognitive concept of freedom is created to refer to the experiencial fact
14:12:47 <Arnia> nsh: I'd politely propose you're doing the same thing
14:12:58 <nsh> well, you first, good sir
14:12:58 <Monty> legally priviliged, rofl
14:13:09 <nsh> quiet, monty
14:13:11 <Monty> dangerous profession, camerapeopling
14:13:23 <nslater> nsh: if what you're saying holds true, how can two people hold different interpretations of the same thing
14:13:31 <Arnia> nsh: you're taking some value judgement you cannot introspect and assigning it to the world outside of consciousness
14:13:47 <nslater> nsh: for example, me and Arnia disagreeing over software freedom?
14:13:48 <Arnia> nsh: more than that, you're assigning it outside of cognition
14:13:57 <nslater> nsh: we are both correct from the perspective of our own value system
14:14:18 <nslater> nsh: but that does not imply there is a universal "truth" of software freedom
14:14:30 <nsh> Arnia, i'm afraid i don't follow. i am speaking, again, of experiences, as being ontologically prior to conceptualisation about them
14:14:46 <Arnia> nsh: now this, I believe is a mistake, because sense of freedom has been well localised within the moral bits of the cortex.
14:14:59 <nsh> Arnia, my arguement being that before there can be a value-system, itself predicated upon concepts, there must be experiences which inform the generation of those concepts
14:15:02 <Arnia> nsh: I don't believe for one second there is a raw experience of freedom
14:15:10 * nslater nods
14:15:19 <Arnia> nsh: and you know that argument is holey
14:15:22 <nsh> Arnia, that would seem to me to be a defining-out-of-existence
14:15:46 <Arnia> nsh: you can have conceptualisation which informs perception (vis a vis visual illusions)
14:16:01 <nsh> Arnia, but whence the conceptualisation?
14:16:04 <Arnia> The illusion doesn't exist in the world... it exists in the brain
14:16:11 <nsh> it cannot, surely, arise from nothing
14:16:17 <nsh> but must be informed by something prior to it
14:16:26 <Arnia> nsh: not from nothing, but there are more options that just the external world
14:16:30 <nsh> unless you would propose that we are born with a priori concepts
14:16:41 <Arnia> s/that/than
14:16:50 <Arnia> The brain is full of loops for example
14:16:56 <Arnia> In fact, it relies on them
14:17:04 * nsh nods
14:17:23 <Arnia> You might as well say language is out there in the world independent of any speaker, and then I'd have to hit you for being a neo-cartesian
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14:17:45 * nsh frowns
14:17:53 <nsh> you've lost me again, i'm afraid
14:18:34 <Arnia> nsh: what you're talking about is almost identical to the ideas in philosophy of language
14:18:46 <nsh> go on, please
14:19:22 <Arnia> Language is complicated, and self-evident so where does it come from? How did language arise? Well, we must be experiencing it in a raw sense. Obviously :p
14:19:33 <Arnia> Anyway, that's the idea of I-Language and E-Language
14:19:45 <nsh> (internal and external?)
14:19:53 <Arnia> I-Language is language as we have in our heads, E-Language is language external to any speaker
14:19:59 <nsh> ah right
14:20:06 <nsh> and you have no truck with this distinction?
14:20:26 <nsh> (don't agree with it)
14:20:38 <Arnia> It is a load of crap. We now know why language works like it does. It is internally generated, self-organising pattern matching on sem-arbitrary temporal patterns plus reinforcement
14:20:50 <Arnia> s/sem/semi
14:21:19 <nsh> but the contents of a novel you would not consider to be external language?
14:21:27 <nsh> it only becomes language when i read it?
14:21:43 <nsh> or is this a semantic confusion
14:21:49 <Arnia> I believe morals (including sense of freedom) are exactly the same thing... they're just internal entities we naturally project into the world due to the way cognition works.
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14:22:10 <Arnia> nsh: it only gains meaning and becomes language whilst you're reading
14:22:29 <Arnia> nsh: otherwise, it is just a load of metal oxides on dried wood pukp
14:22:31 <Arnia> pulp
14:22:32 <nsh> ah, that's an understandable position
14:22:58 * nslater drinks some pushing-potion
14:23:11 <Arnia> pushing potion?
14:23:14 * Arnia blinks
14:23:14 <nsh> but this is itself, almost, a relic of (subject-object) dualism. as you're denying the information meaning outside of subjectivity
14:23:37 <nsh> Arnia, Godel Escher Bach
14:23:40 <nsh> (the dialogues of which nslater is alluding to)
14:23:47 <Arnia> Ah
14:24:11 <nslater> Arnia: you drink pushing potion to jump up a level of abstraction
14:24:24 <nslater> Arnia: or down perhaps, who can tell
14:24:31 <nsh> but what say you to my accusation that you are restricting meaning on the basis of a cartesian dichotomy
14:24:43 <nsh> that of subjective and objective worlds
14:27:35 <Arnia> I'm not, is the simple answer. I'm not 'restricting meaning'... I'm merely saying that meaning is the relationship between sign and signified (in some form) and this only can occur whilst you're reading the damn thing
14:28:13 <Arnia> I haven't restricted meaning more than it is already. I've just pointed out that a book on a shelf unread cannot have its internal words be meaningful
14:29:12 <nsh> which implies that {being meaningful} necessitates {being meaningful to a subject}
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14:29:47 <sbp> PUSHER ROBOT
14:30:10 <nsh> *chuxXxell*
14:30:24 <nsh> WE WILL SAVE YOU
14:30:27 <Arnia> Yes. It isn't dualist as I haven't invoked an external perspective. And I haven't restricted meaning beyond its essential nature anyway.
14:31:58 <nsh> but you are saying that essential nature of meaning is meaning something *to* someone, right? that meaning cannot stand apart from its relationship to a recepticle of meaning, for want of a better term
14:32:20 <Arnia> correct
14:32:22 <nsh> that music is not music when it is unheard
14:32:32 <nsh> and a tree falling in the forest makes no sound
14:32:36 <Arnia> no
14:33:01 <Arnia> It makes sound... but the sound is not meaningful unless it is observed
14:33:11 *** BigJibby (n=matt@ip5-146.eyrkonaeac03.dialup.ca.telus.com) has joined #swhack
14:33:11 <Arnia> I'm not saying observed by what :p
14:33:14 <nsh> ah, ok
14:34:19 <nsh> would, however, the sybols of a python script be meaningful to the computer running it?
14:34:37 <Arnia> Yes, in a cursory fashion
14:34:53 <Arnia> I'm a monist remember...
14:34:53 <nsh> i'm not sure what you mean by cursory
14:35:18 * nsh remembers that you identify as such, at least
14:35:20 <nsh> :-)
14:35:21 <Arnia> As in, it isn't necessarily as meaningful as it is to a human who can make more inferences
14:35:27 <nsh> ah, ok
14:35:36 <nsh> this i'm much more sympathetic too
14:35:48 <nsh> a continuum of meaningfulness
14:35:57 <nsh> rather than a modality
14:36:55 <nsh> i have always had a vague idea that one could define meaning in terms of ability to affect future change
14:37:08 <nsh> the words in the book can't really affect how it sits on the shelf
14:37:08 <Monty> read further argue strongly enough to SEK
14:37:23 <nsh> but with a reader involved, the difference in symbols is amplified
14:37:59 <Arnia> I'd say meaning is capacity to provoke useful inferences
14:38:25 <nsh> i can't say i like the idea of inference at all
14:38:29 <nsh> it seems very artificial to me
14:38:36 <Arnia> I'd say inference is more real than meaning
14:38:48 <Arnia> I'd also say that it is more natural than time, or truth
14:39:05 <nsh> truth i'll give you
14:39:09 <nsh> that's definitely a relic
14:39:14 <nsh> but i'd argue that inference is a relic also
14:39:17 <nsh> of the notion of proof
14:39:21 <Arnia> No
14:39:31 <Arnia> You're looking at it from a classical logic point of view
14:39:49 <Arnia> As inference as being the stuff we write down to make proofs
14:40:07 <Arnia> That isn't so... you can inference without proof
14:40:07 <Monty> okay, I mean.
14:40:08 <nsh> well, if you define it only as a modification of understanding on the basis of new evidencial input
14:40:11 <Arnia> Your body is an inference
14:40:13 <nsh> then i agree
14:40:27 <nsh> and perhaps understanding isn't required either
14:40:27 <Arnia> it is also an inference process ongoing
14:40:35 <nsh> rather a modification of reaction
14:40:41 <Arnia> understanding is tricky to define...
14:40:44 <Arnia> I'd stay clear
14:40:45 <nsh> right
14:40:47 <nsh> forget i said it
14:41:13 <nsh> this converges upon a modern physicalist conception of nature as a self-reflexive system
14:41:20 <nsh> a system that models itself
14:41:41 <nsh> although the notion does have a little taste of evolutionary teleology about it
14:41:59 <nsh> which i would suggest we can excuse
14:42:00 <Arnia> hm... maybe if you broadened beyond the purely physicalist
14:42:18 <nsh> right, there's another word that's a bit tainted
14:42:47 <nsh> i'm quite leaning towards physics-as-information at the moment
14:42:57 <nsh> but under a few caveats about what we define as information
14:43:09 <nsh> for example, i am not at all convinced about the discrete nature of information
14:43:45 * nslater eats a plum
14:43:49 <plum> you were my first choice mr im-eating-my-dinner-n-stuff, trusted second roundabouts eats atlantic sentiments and vile bright keybindings? lol
14:43:50 <nsh> and think that indeed discrete and continuous are themselves epiphenomenal to the type of logic employed
14:44:25 <nsh> but that until the leap is made to transfinite cardinalities this will not be immediately evident
14:44:52 * nsh goes to check the sauna
14:45:51 <Arnia> nsh: see information flow
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15:02:34 <therethinker> hehe @ topic
15:03:25 *** kpreid changed the topic to: "<Arnia> You might as well say language is out there in the world independent of any speaker, and then I'd have to hit you for being a neo-cartesian"
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15:14:19 <therethinker> .title http://www.bigzaphod.org/cow/
15:14:22 <phenny> therethinker: COW - Programming for Bovines
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15:34:52 <sbp> man, bia's cranky again
15:35:26 <sbp> looks like chimezie's doing schtuff
15:35:59 <nsh> is that where you snort pure bits from the cpu register?
15:36:40 * nsh not sure why he read an n in schtuff
15:37:01 <xover> Geographic Osmosis?
15:38:14 <nsh> mustabean
15:38:20 <nsh> .gc mustabean
15:38:22 <phenny> mustabean: 6
15:38:39 * nsh wonders if any of those 6 are offers of mustabean salads
15:38:44 <nsh> because that would go down nice right now
15:40:16 <nsh> someone draw me an ascii sea-urchin plskthx
15:40:57 <nsh> .ety urchin
15:40:58 <phenny> "c.1290 yrichon 'hedgehog,' from O.N.Fr. *irechon (cf. Picard irechon, Walloon ireson, Hainaut hirchon), from O.Fr. herichun 'hedgehog' (Fr. hérisson), formed with dim. suffix -on from V.L. *hericionem, from L. ericius 'hedgehog,' from PIE base *gher- 'to bristle' (cf. [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=urchin
15:44:14 <nsh> [[[
15:44:16 <nsh> A brain, at level 1, 2, or 3 is so a very complicated, very large dimensional nonorientable space, it is a device using a large space to make order. That is, lowering entropy in a smaller dimensional domain. Topological orientability is the property used to tag each kind of space. Well, entropy looks reduced in the low dimensional, orientable space and that violate the thermodynamics second law. In fact, the closed system includes the high dimension number, nonori
15:44:17 <nsh> ]]]
15:44:27 <nsh> if that was in english, it would probably be quite profound
15:45:16 <nslater> snipped at nonori?
15:45:34 <nsh> ...In fact, the closed system includes the high dimension number, nonorientable space and entropy get simply diluted in all possible dimensions. That reduce it for each dimension, not the sum for all dimensions. You could have guessed it: Computing don't violate the thermodynamics second law.
15:46:00 *** nslater changed the topic to: "Computing don't violate the thermodynamics second law."
15:46:31 <nslater> sauce?
15:46:58 <nsh> mustabean sauce, medium peppery
15:47:21 <nsh> something called "the fractal report", a hobbiest magazine from the 90s, it seems
15:47:24 <nsh> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/5113/fr38.htm
15:48:07 <nslater> .gcs "tid-bits" "tit-bits"
15:48:09 <phenny> "tid-bits" (486,000), "tit-bits" (135,000)
15:48:16 <nslater> .ety tid-bits
15:48:16 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "tid-bits". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=tid-bits
15:48:18 <nslater> .ety tit-bits
15:48:18 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "tit-bits". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=tit-bits
15:48:21 <nslater> .ety titbits
15:48:23 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "titbits". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=titbits
15:48:30 <nslater> .w tit-bits
15:48:31 <phenny> I couldn't find 'tit-bits' in WordNet.
15:48:35 <nsh> .ety tidbit
15:48:35 <phenny> "c.1640, probably from dialectal tid 'fond, solicitous, tender' + bit 'morsel.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=tidbit
15:48:36 <nslater> .define tit-bits
15:48:43 <nslater> hmmm
15:48:49 <nslater> hmmmmmm
15:49:03 <nsh> Monty, you're a solicious morsel
15:49:06 <Monty> we meet on webcam (or a a watermelon?
15:49:28 <nslater> Monty: please learn to use parenthesiseses
15:49:32 <Monty> XFM-like slurping treehouse craves falsified mushy Sony.
15:49:38 <nsh> Monty, we meet on watermeloncam
15:49:39 <Monty> spam it yey
15:49:51 <nslater> plum, hit on monty
15:49:54 <plum> douglas hofstadter is at the meeting on tuesday? what do you do on it? lmao
15:49:55 <Monty> Simpsons was refering to each continent stuffed in an inference is such as saying.
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15:52:46 <Monty> hey darobin
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16:05:05 <nsh> .wik stuff
16:05:05 <phenny> "Stuff (cloth), a type of cloth or fabric used to fills pillows and other item" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuff
16:08:11 *** BigJibby (n=matt@ip6-3.eyrkonaeac07.dialup.ca.telus.com) has joined #swhack
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16:19:53 <nsh> .ety "roadmap to dystopia"
16:19:53 <phenny> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'encode' (file "/var/www/inamidst.com/htdocs/phenny/modules/etymology.py", line 80, in f_etymology)
16:20:02 <nsh> .gc "roadmap to dystopia"
16:20:03 <phenny> "roadmap to dystopia": 0
16:20:04 <nsh> silly
16:20:09 <nsh> .gs * to dystopia
16:20:10 <sbp2002> just a lazy programmer
16:20:11 <phenny> * to dystopia: superhighway (2), road (2), antidote (2)
16:20:13 <nslater> .ety "wtf"
16:20:13 <phenny> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'encode' (file "/var/www/inamidst.com/htdocs/phenny/modules/etymology.py", line 80, in f_etymology)
16:20:23 <nsh> oo
16:20:25 <nslater> heh *
16:20:26 <sbp2002> heh, oierw's had an IRC client full stop
16:20:29 <nsh> .g "superhighway to dystopia"
16:20:30 <phenny> nsh: http://curezone.com/art/read.asp?ID=144&db=1&C0=11
16:20:51 * nslater types another *
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16:43:03 <sbp> test * test
16:43:04 <sbp2002> heh
16:43:20 <sbp> sbp2002: YOU SHOULDANT BE DOEING THAT
16:43:20 <sbp2002> to be snappy, elegant, cuddly, celtic, inspirational, and connote speed, reliability, and the lightbulb
16:43:31 <sbp> okers dokers
16:45:41 <sbp> calling Arnia, xover, nslater, and other design oriented peoples
16:46:02 <sbp> come in peoples
16:46:13 * Arnia boings
16:46:21 <sbp> yo
16:46:28 <sbp> new inamidst.com design
16:46:35 <sbp> wondering if I could get a few people to take a look
16:46:46 <sbp> make sure nothing's broken, sanity check, any feedback at all really
16:47:08 <sbp> don't worry too much about content and links and stuff; it's mainly the design details
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16:48:53 <Arnia> hm... couple of points
16:49:09 <kpreid> sbp: loaded it, my first impression is "colorful *SPLUTCH*"
16:49:16 <Arnia> First, the masthead's text looks eroded due to the edging you've put on
16:49:54 <kpreid> sbp: the color borders of the sections' boxes don't hold together -- look random
16:49:57 <Arnia> I'd lose the edging and make the masthead text stronger
16:50:25 <sbp> Arnia: just have a cut instead of a fade at the edges?
16:50:29 <Arnia> Also, the use of centring on the boxes' content and header makes it look scattered and off balance
16:50:33 <sbp> kpreid: would you make them all grey or something?
16:50:47 <sbp> ooh, yes, I see that now
16:50:52 <sbp> huh, odd how I didn't notice that
16:50:53 <Arnia> sbp: no, I'm talking about around the text itself... the outline of the glyphs
16:50:58 <kpreid> sbp: all one color, I think
16:51:03 <kpreid> possibly a light or dark shade of either the inside or outside background
16:51:10 <sbp> ah! right, I follow
16:51:25 <sbp> I thought it was an optical illusion or something, the eroded text
16:51:29 <sbp> guess it's not just me
16:51:33 <kpreid> the splashy stuff at the top isn't quite right, but I'm not sure what to do about it
16:51:53 <kpreid> sbp: bad alpha channel on the text, probly
16:52:10 <kpreid> sbp: make the image data all black and put the text rendering in the alpha channel, and it'll blend in properly
16:52:18 <kpreid> or you could just let the browser render it :-)
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16:52:37 * sbp is amazed Arnia could even see the edging; it's a really small gaussian blur
16:53:01 <sbp> kpreid: perhaps there's too much of the splashy?
16:53:07 <sbp> I thought about making it less heightful
16:53:08 <kpreid> sbp: naw, it's growing on me
16:53:11 <Arnia> sbp: lots of design experience :p
16:53:25 <kpreid> ok, next squawk: the two columns shouldn't be fixed to the width of the header
16:54:08 <sbp> what do you mean by fixed to the width of a header?
16:54:19 <kpreid> oh, I see, the whole page is 750px
16:54:28 <kpreid> change that width: to max-width:
16:54:40 <kpreid> that way the two colums will scrunch instead of requiring messy scorlling
16:54:45 * sbp uploads a few fixes
16:54:47 <kpreid> (gah, bad typing, sorry)
16:55:00 * sbp tries max-width, and increases the icon right-margin
16:55:24 <kpreid> masthead looks better
16:56:01 <sbp> okay, using max-width, and left-justified the texts now
16:56:04 <kpreid> ah! good! less horizontal scrollbar now!
16:56:24 <kpreid> suggest max-width on div.translucent too
16:56:41 * sbp fiddles with spacing a bit more
16:57:25 <sbp> kpreid: done
16:57:53 <kpreid> excellent
16:58:00 <MoiraA> hello
16:58:26 <kpreid> oh, except for that with the way it is now, there is no margin around the unboxed text at the bottom
16:58:42 <kpreid> one way to fix that would be to put left/right margin on p
16:59:00 <kpreid> (on the default p, not the specialzied one like div p)
16:59:30 <sbp> unboxed text at the bottom? you mean the paragraphs starting with "..."?
16:59:40 <sbp> if so, I've not treated those at all yet: those will be entirely different
16:59:45 <kpreid> right
16:59:59 <kpreid> this is not so much a 'layout of that page' thing as 'how to make a robust stylesheet'
17:00:03 <sbp> hmm. should I make the boxes' h2s left-aligned?
17:00:09 <sbp> oh, gotcha
17:00:10 <kpreid> robust as in looks good on more document structures
17:00:11 <kpreid> hmm
17:00:26 <kpreid> I think centered is good
17:01:00 <sbp> it doesn't look too bad left. lemme show you left a moment, hang on
17:01:17 <kpreid> ok, when I look at the page at its max width, what's bugging me is that the icons have different distances to all three of the left, top, and bottom sides
17:01:43 <kpreid> part of that is because the titles are centered and short, none of them overhang the icons, so it's all whitespace
17:01:46 <kpreid> maybe left would be good!
17:01:56 <kpreid> ...yep!
17:02:04 <sbp> kpreid: there
17:02:17 * sbp is undecided now...
17:02:30 * sbp tries center again
17:02:35 <kpreid> left is ood
17:02:40 <kpreid> left is god
17:02:58 <sbp> Eric Claptop is Left?
17:03:04 <sbp> ...Claptop! ahahaha
17:03:22 <sbp> damn, I like left and center
17:03:23 <kpreid> sbp: put an empty element at the bottom of the boxes styled clear:left, so that the icons don't overhang the bottoms
17:03:27 <sbp> but I think I like left marginally more
17:03:36 <sbp> empty element?
17:03:40 <kpreid> left is good because it ties in with the icon positioning
17:03:54 <kpreid> ...</p>
17:03:54 <kpreid> <div class="hack-for-clearing"></div></div>
17:04:16 <kpreid> to see what I mean, reduce text size way down
17:04:31 <sbp> so, like this?
17:04:33 <sbp> --
17:04:33 <sbp> <p class="icon"><img src="phennyicon" alt="" /></p>
17:04:33 <sbp> <div class="hack"></div>
17:04:33 <sbp> <p>Written in python, phenny is a modular IRC bot with search, calculator,
17:04:35 <sbp> and other facilities.</p>
17:04:37 <sbp> --
17:04:39 <kpreid> no
17:04:42 <kpreid> after the text
17:04:58 <sbp> --
17:04:59 <sbp> <p class="icon"><img src="phennyicon" alt="" /></p>
17:04:59 <sbp> <p>Written in python, phenny is a modular IRC bot with search, calculator,
17:04:59 <sbp> and other facilities.</p>
17:04:59 <sbp> <div class="hack"></div>
17:05:00 <sbp> --
17:05:01 <sbp> ?
17:05:04 <kpreid> yes
17:05:21 <kpreid> the reason it's a hack is that it really ought to be specifiable entirely in the css
17:05:45 <kpreid> but there's no way to say of a box "expand around interior floats" or point to a virtual box at the end of an element
17:06:21 <sbp> you'll have to tell me whether it worked or not. Command+- doesn't do that for me anymore because it's using the new fluid resize where the images get smallened as well as the text
17:06:25 <sbp> uploaded
17:06:30 <sbp> woah. heh
17:06:32 <sbp> hang on
17:06:35 <kpreid> heh indeed
17:06:39 <nslater> .gc smallened
17:06:40 <phenny> smallened: 594
17:06:59 <deltab> .gc emsmallened
17:07:00 <phenny> emsmallened: 9
17:07:05 <nslater> .gc ensmallened
17:07:06 <phenny> ensmallened: 114
17:07:18 <nslater> sounds like a perfectly crumulant word to me
17:07:22 <nslater> CROMULANT!
17:07:26 <nslater> stupid fingers
17:07:29 <deltab> .gc crumulant
17:07:29 <phenny> crumulant: 65
17:07:38 <nslater> CROMULENT!
17:07:38 <Monty> argh
17:07:44 <nslater> yes, I feel the same emotion
17:09:12 <sbp> kpreid: dones. is beink fixed for you?
17:10:02 <kpreid> you forgot the css rule for the hack :)
17:10:16 <sbp> div.hack { clear: both; } ?
17:10:17 <kpreid> .hack { clear: left; }
17:10:19 <sbp> ah
17:10:21 <kpreid> well, yah, both
17:10:50 <sbp> done. though it's broken for me now
17:10:54 <sbp> adds extra padding at the bottom
17:11:00 <MoiraA> sbp, I'll email you in a second sbp, but when anyone has a minute, I have a question
17:11:08 <MoiraA> - one of the sbp's
17:11:12 * sbp has to pause for dinner
17:11:28 <sbp> thankies Arnia, kpreid. keep goin' if you've got more comments!
17:11:42 <MoiraA> it's hardly urgent or important, just something I'm curious about
17:11:43 <kpreid> sbp: probably because it's pushing the bottom past the padding-bottom of the icon floating p
17:11:48 <MoiraA> don't worry
17:13:17 <sbp> ooh right, I don't need the padding-bottom
17:13:52 <sbp> MoiraA: feel free to just ask. don't be upset if nobody has time to answer just now though
17:14:11 <sbp> I'm dinnaring and seeing to this webpage SIMULTANEOUSLY LIEK A FOX
17:14:20 <sbp> kpreid: yeah, that fixed it
17:15:39 <MoiraA> sbp: I'm hardly going to burst into tears about this :) I don't expect anyone to know the answer tbh but I thought it worth a try
17:16:05 <MoiraA> I was trying to set a permanent, strong ban to keep r4ndy out of the channel
17:16:11 <MoiraA> he has another nick, newtripper
17:16:17 <MoiraA> so I did this:
17:16:36 <MoiraA> [18:04] -> *Q* permban #everyonedoesit *!*newtripper*@*
17:16:53 <MoiraA> sorry, that's what I got back from Q
17:16:55 <MoiraA> I typed this
17:17:00 *** RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #swhack
17:17:20 <MoiraA> no I was right first time
17:17:27 <MoiraA> I typed the above and Q gave me this
17:17:29 <MoiraA> * Q sets mode: +b *!*wtripper*@*
17:17:40 <MoiraA> what happened to the "ne"?
17:17:46 <MoiraA> hi RobotGuy
17:17:53 <sbp> on Freenode you do /mode +b #channel newtripper!*@*
17:17:55 <kpreid> there's probably a limit on how many characters a ban pattern can have
17:18:09 <kpreid> take off the asterisks
17:18:24 <MoiraA> that's a point
17:18:27 <sbp> why are you banning the username rather than the nickname?
17:18:30 <sbp> guess you could ban both
17:18:33 <MoiraA> I think you're right
17:18:44 <RobotGuy> MoiraA: Hi there.
17:18:52 <MoiraA> username is nick name
17:19:02 <MoiraA> I'm banning everything I can
17:19:16 <MoiraA> if anyone can think of a stronger ban than that I'd like to know
17:19:24 <MoiraA> short of banning everyone
17:19:49 <RobotGuy> Ban the world! ;)
17:20:05 <RobotGuy> +b *@*
17:20:29 <RobotGuy> Or +b *!*@* maybe
17:21:06 <sbp> yeah. dirty kuh-nig-uhts
17:21:46 <MoiraA> if I did that RobotGuy, I wouldn't be able to get in myself
17:22:06 <RobotGuy> Hee hee, I know. Nobody would get in the channel.
17:22:19 <MoiraA> anyway, once again, #swhack has proved to be full of super intelligent people and come up with the answer
17:22:20 <nslater> MoiraA: does he connect from the same IP each time?
17:22:21 <MoiraA> cheers
17:22:27 <MoiraA> no not really
17:22:33 <MoiraA> his IP changes but not very often
17:22:35 <nslater> how about the same subnet?
17:22:45 <MoiraA> I'd say so, for definite
17:22:51 <nslater> so, it might always start with 134.245.234 but the last 3 digets might change
17:22:56 <nslater> in which case just ban the whole subnet
17:22:56 <MoiraA> can you ban a subnet?
17:22:58 <MoiraA> yes
17:23:03 <nslater> yeah... you can on freenode
17:23:12 <MoiraA> won't that ban everyone with the same router and ISP?
17:23:26 <RobotGuy> It will ban everyone on that subnet
17:23:29 <nslater> yeah, but the chances of that mattering for a medium channel is very small
17:23:53 <nslater> plus, on free node you can do ban exceptions
17:23:56 <RobotGuy> It's a complete class C network ban
17:23:57 <nslater> so specific people are allowed in
17:24:08 <MoiraA> of course, I need to find out what his IP is
17:24:09 <nslater> you might be able to do the same on quakenet
17:24:16 <nslater> MoiraA: is he in the channel right now?
17:24:24 <MoiraA> hard when he either sets +x on qnet or uses tor
17:24:31 <nslater> hmm
17:24:32 <MoiraA> no
17:24:36 <MoiraA> I kicked him out
17:24:45 <MoiraA> I could try sweet talking an ircop into giving me his IP
17:24:46 <nslater> why dont you do what spb did?
17:25:02 <nslater> make the channel moderated and voice people
17:25:17 <nslater> then if he does come in, he's talking to him self
17:25:19 <MoiraA> what did he do?
17:25:28 <RobotGuy> You would have to +v everyone except the intruder
17:25:39 <sbp> [[[
17:25:41 <sbp> THIS IS A SYATEM GENERATED ALERT
17:25:41 <sbp> We Request You Not To Respond To This Message!
17:25:41 <sbp> Dear sir /Madam
17:25:41 <sbp> Welcome to London school of Business and Ecommerce Ltd
17:25:42 <sbp> ]]]
17:25:49 <MoiraA> the trouble is, I get a lot of complete novices to both computers and IRC in there
17:25:50 <nslater> ha!
17:26:05 <MoiraA> they simply wouldn't understand and would never come back
17:26:07 <nslater> MoiraA: have you gone to #help and asked about it?
17:26:13 <MoiraA> I'll see if what I've got here works
17:26:18 <RobotGuy> You could
