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00:12:52 <Monty> yo Xanthor|aw!
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00:48:46 <Monty> Thank goodness, nsh is back!
00:49:31 <nsh> i know, it was pretty rough going for a bit there Monty
00:49:34 <Monty> for a inner-ear-fluid-attracting hat magnet
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01:03:01 <nsh> phenny, tell Arnia about http://www.rac.es/ficheros/doc/00158.pdf and references therefrom
01:03:01 <phenny> nsh: I'll pass that on when Arnia is around.
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03:04:25 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's therethinker!
03:04:32 *** therethinker is now known as z^
03:10:21 * tonybaloney867 wonders if Monty will be able to assist him with a problem
03:10:22 <Monty> night and pie
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03:10:52 <Monty> Thank goodness, _bjoern is back!
03:11:18 <_bjoern> phenny, tell xover today being up already sucks badly!
03:11:18 <phenny> _bjoern: I'll pass that on when xover is around.
03:15:27 <z^> tonybaloney867: I think that explains it
03:15:57 * tonybaloney867 takes that as a "no"
03:16:11 <z^> yes
03:16:16 <tonybaloney867> Monty: You could have at least told me which flavor pie it was. :P
03:16:17 <Monty> it up again
03:16:47 <tonybaloney867> What's up again? If you threw my pie onto the ceiling.....
03:16:55 <tonybaloney867> Monty: Please tell me you didn't do that.
03:16:56 <Monty> eyp
03:17:07 <tonybaloney867> he does typos now :)
03:17:16 <tonybaloney867> Monty: Well thanks a lot!
03:17:19 <Monty> is sort of it wont be _THE_ masterpiece :)
03:17:36 *** _bjoern changed the topic to: "<Monty> is sort of it wont be _THE_ masterpiece :)"
03:17:55 <tonybaloney867> Monty: Well if this is your first attempt at abstract art (a pie on a ceiling), it probably won't be THE masterpiece.
03:17:58 <Monty> can attest to the therapist, as others see us!
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03:18:55 <tonybaloney867> Well, Monty, I think that you need to speak with your therapist about other things, such as your anger issues, if you keep throwing others' pies onto the ceiling without their permission
03:18:56 <Monty> stale steaming Iraq.
03:19:06 <tonybaloney867> Or that too...
03:20:06 <tonybaloney867> Monty: no need to be ashamed. Many people need to speak with their therapists about their fears of the unknown
03:20:08 <Monty> bigotrry: No definition found!
03:20:19 <tonybaloney867> (how appropriate)
03:20:49 * tonybaloney867 thinks Monty makes a very very strange kind of sense
03:20:49 <Monty> loggy into a condition where to start
03:20:52 <tonybaloney867> I'm scared...
03:21:21 <z^> Is it ironic that today its Passover & Hitler's birthday?
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04:02:06 <Mike_L> Monty: did you miss me?
04:02:06 <Monty> Do you wish to believe I miss you ?
04:02:13 <Mike_L> Monty: maybe
04:02:16 <Monty> delicious dovetailed spiffy tickles leguminous aluminium swearing...?
04:02:47 <Mike_L> Monty: did you ran around naked in the rain while singing a song about you?
04:02:48 <Monty> What are your feelings now ?
04:02:55 <Mike_L> Monty: did you see me?
04:02:56 <Monty> hah! I never got it!
04:03:02 <Mike_L> Monty: did you miss me?
04:03:04 <Monty> Steal your own lines.
04:03:14 <skwerl> lol
04:03:32 <Mike_L> Monty: you're too trixie for meee!
04:03:33 <Monty> craves IRC medical Tux-Kart ;)
04:03:59 <Mike_L> countdown
04:03:59 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 100, 2, 2, 3, 3, 9. Your target is 291. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:04:12 <Mike_L> .calc 3*100 - 9
04:04:17 <Mike_L> calc 3*100 - 9
04:04:17 <Monty> Mike_L: 291
04:04:23 <Mike_L> I win!
04:04:29 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:04:30 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 16 milliseconds. I found all 552 solutions in about 47 milliseconds.
04:04:32 <Monty> ibot 100*3 - 9
04:04:34 <Mike_L> countdown
04:04:34 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 75, 9, 1, 4, 6, 8. Your target is 863. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:05:05 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:05:06 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 15 milliseconds. I found all 7 solutions in about 47 milliseconds.
04:05:07 <Monty> ibot (75*8/6 - 4)*9 - 1
04:05:15 <Mike_L> that was hard
04:05:17 <Mike_L> countdown
04:05:18 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 25, 10, 5, 5, 7, 6. Your target is 698. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:05:48 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:05:49 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 0 milliseconds. I found all 20 solutions in about 31 milliseconds.
04:05:51 <Monty> ibot (25*5 - 7)*6 - 10
04:06:04 <Mike_L> countdown
04:06:04 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 75, 7, 3, 6, 4, 7. Your target is 559. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:06:14 <Mike_L> calc 75*6
04:06:15 <Monty> Mike_L: 450
04:06:34 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:06:36 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 0 milliseconds. I found all 56 solutions in about 31 milliseconds.
04:06:37 <Monty> ibot (75 + 4)*7 + 6
04:07:01 <Mike_L> calc 75*7 + 7*4 + 6
04:07:01 <Monty> Mike_L: 559
04:07:12 <Mike_L> countdown
04:07:12 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 100, 6, 7, 4, 5, 5. Your target is 640. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:07:40 <Mike_L> calc 6*100 + 4*(5+5)
04:07:40 <Monty> Mike_L: 640
04:07:42 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:07:44 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 0 milliseconds. I found all 76 solutions in about 31 milliseconds.
04:07:45 <Monty> ibot (7*4 + 100)*5
04:08:01 <Mike_L> countdown
04:08:01 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 50, 4, 5, 3, 4, 10. Your target is 762. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:08:31 <Mike_L> calc 50*(10+5) + 4*3
04:08:31 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:08:33 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 0 milliseconds. I found all 54 solutions in about 32 milliseconds.
04:08:34 <Monty> ibot (50*5 + 4)*3
04:08:36 <Monty> Mike_L: 762
04:08:46 <Mike_L> countdown
04:08:47 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 100, 9, 10, 9, 5, 6. Your target is 263. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:09:17 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:09:18 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 16 milliseconds. I found all 28 solutions in about 47 milliseconds.
04:09:20 <Monty> ibot (9 + 10 + 9)*6 + 100 - 5
04:09:51 <Mike_L> calc 100 + 10*(9+6) + 9 + 5
04:09:51 <Monty> Mike_L: 264
04:10:47 <Mike_L> countdown
04:10:47 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 100, 9, 9, 9, 8, 9. Your target is 408. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:11:04 <phenny> 3*100 - 9 = 291
04:11:17 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:11:19 <Monty> Oh bugger, I don't think I can solve that one!
04:11:37 <Mike_L> countdown
04:11:37 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 25, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7. Your target is 279. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:12:07 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:12:08 <Mike_L> calc 25*(7+3/3) + 4
04:12:09 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 0 milliseconds. I found all 160 solutions in about 31 milliseconds.
04:12:10 <Monty> ibot (5*7 - 4)*3*3
04:12:51 <Mike_L> calc 25*(5+3+3) + 4
04:12:52 <Monty> Mike_L: 279
04:12:56 <Mike_L> countdown
04:12:56 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 75, 6, 2, 10, 10, 6. Your target is 757. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:13:08 <Mike_L> calc 75*10 + 2
04:13:08 <Monty> Mike_L: 752
04:13:25 <Mike_L> calc 75*10 + 10 - 2 -6/6
04:13:26 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:13:28 <Monty> Oh bugger, I don't think I can solve that one!
04:13:47 <Mike_L> calc 75*10 + 10 - 2 -6/6
04:14:04 <Mike_L> calc 75*10 + 10 - 2 - 6/6
04:14:21 <Mike_L> so Monty doesn't do division?
04:14:21 <Monty> That is interesting. Please continue.
04:14:44 <Mike_L> Monty: you answer too quickly
04:14:47 <Monty> Hrm. Let's assume that piss is magenta :(
04:14:55 <Mike_L> countdown
04:14:55 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 100, 3, 2, 10, 7, 6. Your target is 249. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
04:15:25 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
04:15:26 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 0 milliseconds. I found all 106 solutions in about 47 milliseconds.
04:15:28 <Monty> ibot (100 - 10 - 7)*6/2
04:15:59 <Mike_L> calc (100 - 10 - 7)*6/2
04:16:11 <Mike_L> .calc (100 - 10 - 7)*6/2
04:16:16 <Mike_L> .calc (100 - 10 - 7)*6
04:16:17 <phenny> (100 - 10 - 7)*6 = 498
04:16:29 <Mike_L> calc (100 - 10 - 7)*6
04:16:29 <Monty> Mike_L: 498
04:16:32 <Mike_L> calc (100 - 10 - 7)*6/2
04:16:46 <Mike_L> .calc 75*10 + 10 - 2 - 6/6
04:16:47 <phenny> 75*10 + 10 - 2 - 6/6 = 757
04:17:06 <Mike_L> I think Monty has an error since he couldn't find that solution
04:17:06 <Monty> now :)
04:18:30 <Mike_L> Monty, stone
04:18:30 <Monty> I chose paper - I win! :o)
04:23:03 <phenny> (100 - 10 - 7)*6/2 = 249
04:33:53 <z^> .title http://cgi.ebay.com/A-WELL_W0QQitemZ130215102765
04:33:53 <phenny> z^: Image of Jesus on Napkin Rare Could it be a Miracle ? - eBay (item 130215102765 end time Apr-20-08 20:29:51 PDT)
04:33:57 <z^> def. worth seeing ;P
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06:09:47 <sbp> duderiobocks
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07:10:18 <Monty> hi shepazu
07:10:31 <xover> .val http://www.amazon.co.uk/
07:10:31 <phenny> xover: 03:37Z <_bjoern> tell xover today being up already sucks badly!
07:10:35 <phenny> xover: http://www.amazon.co.uk/ is Invalid (1731 errors)
07:11:02 <xover> Good call Amazon; that's a new record for you. Nice “Redesign”.
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07:32:07 <xover> .c GBP 36 in NOK
07:32:08 <phenny> xover: Sorry, no result.
07:32:15 <xover> .c 36 GBP in NOK
07:32:16 <phenny> 36 British pounds = 358.875811 Norwegian kroner
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08:25:15 <Monty> welcome, xover
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09:02:38 <xover> .gc "IOUSBFamily was not able to enumerate a device"
09:02:39 <phenny> "IOUSBFamily was not able to enumerate a device": 614
09:02:43 <xover> weird
09:03:05 <xover> The new Mac Pro isn't able to detect the iPod Touch; but the Mac mini finds it with no problems.
09:03:20 <xover> Same goes for an external USB disk.
09:03:37 <xover> But the USB keyboard, mouse, and headset all work fine.
09:04:41 <xover> The two obvious candidates for interfering — ControllerMate and Parallels, both of whom include a USB driver kernel extension — have been disabled (kext moved away) with no change.
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09:33:28 <Monty> yo idickinson!
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09:35:02 <Monty> howdy, MoiraA
09:55:51 <Arnia> Hm... strange night. I seem to have found myself with an appointment to see a venture capitalist
09:55:51 <phenny> Arnia: 19 Apr 20:07Z <kpreid> tell Arnia re equals, Java *should* work that way -- more info about how it isn't?
09:55:52 <phenny> Arnia: 01:29Z <nsh> tell Arnia about http://www.rac.es/ficheros/doc/00158.pdf and references therefrom
09:56:43 * Arnia fibers nsh over the empty topology
09:57:26 <Arnia> phenny, ask kpreid re re equals: should work which way?
09:57:26 <phenny> Arnia: I'll pass that on when kpreid is around.
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10:09:57 <Pierre> sbp, here?
10:10:07 <Arnia> There
10:10:14 * Arnia points vaguely
10:10:15 <Pierre> coffee++
10:10:17 <Pierre> ok :)
10:10:56 <Pierre> I knew "ping" would have been better
10:13:09 <Arnia> If you'd pinged, I would have boinged…
10:13:42 * Arnia should work, but hasn't woken up yet
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10:38:28 <Arnia> phenny, ask nslater if I can have a word with him in private at some point soon
10:38:28 <phenny> Arnia: I'll pass that on when nslater is around.
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11:06:09 <guysoft42> hey, does anyone know what function in phenny will run after every posting in the chat? because i want to build a logger
11:11:00 <Arnia> guysoft42: just give a regexp which matches everything
11:11:46 <guysoft42> Arnia, will r'(?i)' do? i am not good with regexp.. i am just guessing that
11:14:59 <Arnia> .*
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11:19:04 <xoverpod> sbp2002: what do you think about irc on a mp3 player?
11:19:05 <sbp2002> bet loopholes are great
11:20:05 <xoverpod> sbp2002: there are irc loopholes?
11:20:07 <sbp2002> old keys: blargh
11:20:46 <kpreid> Arnia: invoking the submost class's method of the same signature...
11:20:46 <phenny> kpreid: 10:24Z <Arnia> ask kpreid re re equals: should work which way?
11:20:57 <xoverpod> sbp2002: no the keys are actually quite new.
11:20:58 <sbp2002> this is a valid example. we'd actually base it upon AChord (A for Anonymous)
11:21:16 <kpreid> Arnia: Oh. Did you perhaps write class Foo { bool equals(Foo other) {...}}?
11:23:20 <xoverpod> hmm. no way to hide the virtual keyboard.
11:24:10 <xoverpod> and for some reason yo cant see the text as youre typing.
11:26:11 <Arnia> kpreid: Ok... say I have Foo and a subclass Bar. Now I have a method which accepts a Foo and calls equals on it. I want the equals defined at Bar to be invoked if the instance is a Bar instance
11:27:30 <xoverpod> ah, if you switch to the server list and back the keyboard goes away.
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11:29:25 <kpreid> Arnia: That's how it should work. Show me the signatures of your equals methods on Foo and Bar
11:29:57 <Arnia> Both are boolean equals(Object o)
11:30:29 <Arnia> I thought it should work like that too but posts online have made me doubt it
11:30:32 <kpreid> they should be public ...
11:30:56 <kpreid> (dunno exactly what happens in the event of overriding without the same visibility qualifier)
11:30:58 <Arnia> yeah
11:31:06 <Arnia> Sorry I missed that
11:31:24 <kpreid> is that a "yeah, I need to fix that", or a "yeah, they are already"?
11:31:37 <xoverpod> hmm. but this powersaving thing is going to get real annoying real fast.
11:32:28 <Arnia> yeah, they are already
11:32:47 <kpreid> ok, gimme a test case. or browsable code :-)
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11:34:28 <Arnia> I can't right now :) The problem is that this is part of the NAL stuff in my new OpenNARS. I can't test it until I get significantly more code, but it impacts on how I write the more code
11:34:54 <Arnia> Or rather, mentally I have to write it this way or I'll lose track of what I'm doing
11:35:09 <Arnia> (I'm not a coder damnit... grr)
11:35:45 <Pierre> sbp2002, hello, are you sbp too? :)
11:35:46 <sbp2002> Zone
11:36:46 <Arnia> sbp2002: how is 2002 today?
11:36:47 <sbp2002> they should hide the link for a while to update itself
11:37:06 <Arnia> sbp2002: They're updating 2002? Does it hurt?
11:37:07 <sbp2002> you're getting to have mis-attributed, according to CNN
11:38:03 <kpreid> Arnia: give me the relevant classes anyway. or just the bodies of the equals methods and the caller.
11:38:57 <Arnia> Well... Term doesn't actually override equals, and CompoundTerm does
11:39:50 <Arnia> lisppaste2, url?
11:39:50 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
11:40:07 *** nslater (n=nslater@bytesexual.org) has joined #swhack
11:41:57 <Arnia> I don't know it *won't* work, but I've had problems with inheritance and method invocation before in Java and Eclipse kept warning me about what I was doing so I searched to see if anyone else knew. Apparently the method invoked is chosen at *compile time* not run time.
11:42:22 <kpreid> Noooo....
11:42:35 <kpreid> There are two different things here
11:42:42 <Arnia> This was from a post on the Sun forums
11:43:06 <kpreid> There is overloading, which is compile time, and dispatch, which is run time
11:43:06 * nslater wibbles
11:43:07 <phenny> nslater: 11:05Z <Arnia> ask nslater if I can have a word with him in private at some point soon
11:43:09 <kpreid> Overloading happens when you have in the same class (possibly inherited) foo(Bar bar) and foo(Baz baz)
11:43:19 <kpreid> that is determined at compile time
11:43:39 <kpreid> but if they're both foo(Bar) and on different classes, *that* is ALWAYS runtime
11:44:04 <Arnia> ah, ok...
11:44:35 <Arnia> Hm... wonder why Eclipse kept saying 'This may not work!' and throwing a fit
11:44:45 <Arnia> Well... a fit meaning a mild sulk
11:45:11 <kpreid> Well, the working hypothesis is you have different signatures :-)
11:45:33 <kpreid> Code, please...
11:46:52 *** xoverpod has quit ()
11:48:54 <Arnia> I'm trying...
11:49:02 <Arnia> pastebin is erratic
11:49:13 <Arnia> (actually, my network connection is erratic overall)
11:49:57 <lisppaste2> Arnia pasted "CompoundTerm equals" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/59405
11:56:31 <kpreid> Arnia: are you sure components.equals compares the way you want?
11:57:02 <Arnia> They're two lists
11:57:14 <Arnia> However, there is one fix
11:57:46 <Arnia> I need to check this.isCommutative() and if true, convert the lists to sets before comparing
12:00:29 <kpreid> Arnia: What exactly do you mean by 'lists'?
12:02:31 <Arnia> this.components is a List<Term>
12:03:06 <kpreid> and List documents its equals(Object) to behave how?
12:04:09 <Arnia> Same length, component-wise equality
12:04:21 <Arnia> Which is the behaviour I want
12:04:59 *** ebel (n=rory@89.100.92.33) has joined #swhack
12:06:49 <kpreid> Ok, my last idea is print statements...
12:06:59 <kpreid> see if your equals is getting invoked when it should
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13:19:45 <nslater> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_hci9vrvfw
13:20:16 <nslater> vacuum implosion on a large scale...
13:21:03 <MoiraA> hello
13:21:27 * nslater waves
13:22:27 * MoiraA waves back and gets something to eat, having just got in from work
13:22:29 * Arnia prepares a transfer of consciousness to Cuth's Bar
13:22:50 <Arnia> It's all very ood
13:29:52 <z^> good or odd?
13:35:26 *** cre8cell is now known as cre8radix|afk
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13:44:54 <Arnia> Ood
13:44:54 <Monty> Steal your own lines.
13:45:06 * Arnia drips Monty in mouth tentacles
13:45:06 <Monty> Arnia: are already"?
13:45:15 <Arnia> oh, fair enough
13:46:10 <z^> Does AM-nty react to "ood" or something?
13:46:14 <z^> *Monty
13:46:15 <Monty> Tell me more about that.
13:46:43 *** Arnia has quit ()
13:52:54 <sbp> z^: he goes off at random now too
13:52:58 <sbp> since about two weeks ago
13:53:21 <z^> Ah
13:56:54 <nsh> PIMPLOSION
13:58:29 <sbp> now that would be cool
13:58:35 <nsh> ahahahaha
13:58:43 <nsh> Prescott suffers from Bulemia
13:58:44 <sbp> though admittedly the wagon imploding was cool too
13:58:55 <nsh> "Former deputy prime minister John Prescott confesses to suffering from the eating disorder bulimia." -BBC
13:59:04 <sbp> yeah. irony factor: one tetratrillion quintillion billion
13:59:29 <nsh> i think he just suffers from bouts of conscience that cause nervous vomitting
13:59:31 <sbp> only case of bulimia where the sufferer doesn't sick it back up again?
13:59:34 <sbp> hehe
14:01:23 <sbp> just when you thought he was out of the news for good
14:02:21 <nsh> yeah, convenient that
14:03:12 <sbp> “In the British Isles, dock leaves are a traditional remedy for the sting of nettles, and suitable larger docks (such as broad-leaved dock Rumex obtusifolius or curled dock Rumex crispus) often grow conveniently in similar habitats to common nettle (Urtica dioica)”
14:03:18 <sbp> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumex
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14:03:35 <sbp> I used this trick today. I wasn't entirely convinced that it wasn't an old wives' remedy
14:03:50 <sbp> though I did read some support of it in Notes & Queries just recently
14:04:09 <sbp> and anyway, I was trying to take a photograph of a farm and I knelt in some accidentally
14:04:14 <nslater> hmm... so I just got an email with a PIF file that is actually a RAR
14:04:20 <sbp> so I had somewhat of an occasion to try it out
14:04:24 <sbp> and it bloody well does work
14:04:26 <nslater> ... I opened it up and it has a bunch of bat files and DLLs
14:04:28 <sbp> so now I want to find out how
14:04:59 <sbp> http://www.kew.org/ethnomedica/reports/dock.html
14:05:03 <nslater> ... so, looks like a trojan etc, but interestingly enough it also has some mirc configuration to auto connect to a bunch of servers with channel names, administrator user names etc
14:05:28 <nslater> I just joined one of the servers and sure enough there was a user that matched one in the config file
14:06:08 <sbp> “The nature of the toxin secreted by nettles is not settled. The stinging hairs of most nettle species contain formic acid, serotonin and histamine; however recent studies of Urtica thunbergiana (Fu et al, 2006) implicate oxalic acid and tartaric acid rather than any of those substances, at least in that species.”
14:06:10 <sbp> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nettle
14:06:37 <sbp> Wikipedia says it's unproven
14:06:45 <sbp> “The alkalinity of the sap may counteract the nettle's acids. Nettle itself will release alkaline sap when macerated. While there is no scientific proof that this remedy works, searching for and using a dock leaf at least takes the mind off the stinging pain somewhat.”
14:06:47 <sbp> - ibid.
14:07:18 <sbp> in my case, I didn't have to search very far: there were dock leaves about a yard and a half or two yards away
14:07:34 * nsh smiles
14:07:34 <nsh> you've found your first illegal botnet
14:07:43 <nsh> BEGIN SEAMY#INTERNET#UNDERSIDE CHOOSE-YOUR-OWN-ADVENTURE!
14:07:52 <sbp> “This species have spiny hairs, or stinging trichomes, whose tips come off when touched, transforming the hair into a needle that will inject a cocktail of poisons: acetylcholine, histamine, 5-HT and possibly formic acid.”
14:07:57 <sbp> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinging_nettle
14:08:17 <nsh> If you report the servers' IP addresses to the relevant authorities, go to page 106
14:08:50 <nsh> If you lurk and try to determine the possibility of taking control of the drones for some as yet undetermined purpose, go to page 243
14:09:13 <sbp> at least I can answer this question: “Whether younger people would have heard of nettle/dock leaf, I don't know; do people today get much opportunity of being stung by nettles?” - http://www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2868&start=0
14:09:15 <sbp> um yes, and um yes
14:09:34 <nsh> If you reverse engineer the mirc scripts looking for remotely exploitable bugs, go to page 312
14:09:40 <sbp> this was the first time in like fifteen years, admittedly
14:09:51 <sbp> I only just brushed it too, but it really set in
14:13:23 *** z^ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:14:47 * nslater misses CYOA books...
14:15:30 <sbp> [[[
14:15:31 <sbp> Apparently the origin of this old wives’ tale is the similarity
14:15:31 <sbp> between docce, the old English name for the dock leaf, and the Latinate doctor
14:15:31 <sbp> (and the fact that they happen, providentially, to grow alongside stinging nettles).
14:15:42 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.imprint.co.uk/pdf/Polymathy.pdf
14:16:27 <sbp> welp, I can't find any decent scientific experiments done to test this
14:16:57 <sbp> so I've no way of determining whether it was a) placebo, b) would have worn off anyway, c) the alkalinity of the nettle, d) the soothing action of the juices, or e) something else
14:17:00 <nslater> have you seen the new holodrives? came acccross a link on reddit this morning
14:17:09 <sbp> nope?
14:17:16 *** jewel has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
14:17:23 <nslater> 300GB per disk...
14:17:40 <nslater> http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=313
14:18:14 <nslater> $18,000 per disk drive :p
14:18:35 <sbp> ah, here's the source for that: http://cogprints.org/1078/0/placebopaper3.htm
14:18:51 <sbp> some guy very shakily intimates that it's only a placebo
14:19:21 <sbp> but like, multiple controlled environment double blind experimentation anyone?
14:21:28 <sbp> .ety hapless
14:21:28 <phenny> "'unfortunate,' 1568, from hap (q.v.)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=hapless
14:21:31 <sbp> .ety haphazard
14:21:31 <phenny> "1573, from hap 'chance, luck' (see hap) + hazard 'risk, danger, peril.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=haphazard
14:22:57 <dpawson> sbp, always worked for me (dock leaves on nettle stings. Pre-conditioning perhaps?)
14:28:58 <sbp> yeah, I'm not sure what to believe
14:29:20 <sbp> I've just looked through a heapload of resources about it, but none of them have used a proper scientific study to determine what goes on
14:29:47 <nslater> I "believe" it works :p
14:29:50 <sbp> *including* all the pages that dismiss it as a placebo
14:30:23 *** Arnia (n=jgeldart@0-16-cb-bd-57-e.it.wlan.dur.ac.uk) has joined #swhack
14:31:14 <sbp> from introspection of the event, I'm more convinced that it is some physiological rather than psychological effect. for example I noticed that one small patch was still burning for a few minutes after; a part that I hadn't applied the dock leaf to
14:31:47 <sbp> but that still would only narrow it down to either rubbing action, soothing of the juice, or the alkaline (or some other chemical) theory
14:32:02 <nslater> what werw you doing to get stung in the first place?
14:32:30 <sbp> and it still may have been a kind of placebo thing going on there: did I notice the patch still burning and *then* figure that I didn't rub the dock there, or vice versa? the former as far as I can tell, but I didn't really think that hard about it at the time
14:32:40 <sbp> I was taking a photo of a pretty entrance to a farm
14:33:06 <sbp> and I knelt down in the verge of the lane, with bluebells (and white bluebells!), daffodils, narcissi and stuff
14:33:21 <sbp> ...right onto some nettles. not right in them though, but they pushed all up my shin
14:33:44 <sbp> dock leaves were about two yards away, as noted, so it wasn't just a wearing off of the symptoms
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14:34:32 <dpawson> mind over matter? I 'know' (== believe) it works, so it does. Anyway, doing something stops you thinking how much it stings
14:34:46 <sbp> well that's another thing. I didn't know it worked
14:35:03 <dpawson> I've always 'known' it to work :-)
14:35:13 <sbp> in fact, I was more inclined to believe it was an old wives' tale, except for what I had read in N&Q recently, but that's hardly a modern medical journal of repute
14:35:17 <nslater> what would be the evolutionary advantage of them working and being in such regular close proximity?
14:35:31 * Arnia wonders why people are so dismissive of placebos
14:35:33 <dpawson> But then again, I used to sell warts to my grandmother at ha'penny a time.
14:35:42 <sbp> I think the defence is more against animals eating than of accidental human contact
14:35:43 <Arnia> As if it matters *why* it works…
14:36:03 <dpawson> True
14:36:07 <nslater> Arnia: have you read Derren Brown's book "Tricks of the Mind"?
14:36:10 <dpawson> (or how)
14:36:14 <Arnia> No
14:36:14 <nsh> As if it matters *why* the planets move the way they do...
14:36:22 <sbp> I'm certainly not dismissing the effect of placebo
14:36:29 <Arnia> nsh: well, we don't know why do we?
14:36:31 <nslater> Arnia: he spends the last half of it talking about placebos, there physcological effect and there place in society
14:36:46 <sbp> I know that placebo is very strong. if dock leaves are “just” a placebo effect then it wouldn't particularly surprise me
14:36:48 <nslater> pls be ignoring my spealing
14:36:50 <Arnia> nsh: all we know is that they move in a certain way and we have some equations which happen to match those motions
14:37:03 <Arnia> (to a certain degree at least)
14:37:11 <sbp> but considering all the evidence from today, I am swayed a bit more towards the idea that it is not a placebo in the case of dock leaves and stinging nettles
14:37:23 <sbp> as I say though, I'd really like to know for sure, in some controlled tests. it's just kinda interesting
14:37:28 <Arnia> The how and the why are not things which are generally accessible to scientific method, which is just a good way to determine the what
14:37:47 <nsh> Arnia, the point was that we got to those equations by believing it matters why
14:38:16 <dpawson> ((It's only our science bent these days that makes us ask. Super rational beings that we are ))
14:38:18 <nslater> Arnia: part of Derren's thesis is that placebos CAN be harmful when they prevent people from seeking tested medical attention for things that are serious because they believe that crystals and sounds of the rainforrest are going to cure bowel cancer etc
14:38:21 <Arnia> nsh: really? I thought it was the asking *what*.
14:39:02 <Arnia> dpawson: strange, since the logic we use isn't rational (in the traditional sense)
14:39:07 <aspect> the what is manifest. the why attempts to explain the what.
14:39:19 * Arnia is going to write a paper called 'A Truly Rational Logic'
14:39:23 <sbp> manifest?
14:39:35 <nsh> .gd manifest
14:39:35 <phenny> manifest: attest: provide evidence for; stand as proof of; show by one's behavior, attitude, or external attributes; "His high fever attested to his illness ...
14:39:37 <Arnia> aspect: we can't answer the why through scientific method
14:39:42 <dpawson> I'm pretty convinced that belief is stronger (for most of us) than rational logic.
14:39:45 <nsh> ugh
14:39:55 <Arnia> aspect: we can only very occasionally see some of the how
14:40:02 <Arnia> aspect: and we can barely agree on the what
14:40:17 <sbp> Arnia: who was being dismissive of placebo, or do you just mean in general?
14:40:24 <aspect> sbp: I'm taking the "what" as being the experiential or experimental evidence. An apple falls. The why is trying to explain it through gravity
14:40:28 <Arnia> sbp: I mean in general
14:40:34 <sbp> aha. yeah
14:40:42 <Arnia> dpawson: well, depends whether you believe there is a fundamental difference between belief and knowledge
14:40:54 <sbp> aspect: I think that's what we're calling the what
14:40:58 * Arnia skips *that* debate before he goes mad
14:40:58 <sbp> aspect: it's all very confusing
14:40:59 <dpawson> Arnia, yes, I think there are rough bounds.
14:41:10 <aspect> Arnia: to a workable extent we can agree on what, and we have Ockham's razor to help us decide which "why" to prefer. The "how" is all just handwaving :-)
14:41:12 <Arnia> dpawson: I don't think there is such a difference
14:41:35 <Arnia> dpawson: also, I use rational in the sense of 'ratio'
14:41:38 <aspect> sbp: who's on first?
14:41:42 <sbp> heh, heh
14:41:48 <sbp> Dr. Who
14:41:57 <sbp> followed by the Who
14:41:57 <Arnia> aspect: can we agree on the what? I don't believe we can. In fact, I believe we fundamentally *cannot*
14:41:59 <dpawson> My view: We can step through logical items to explain knowledge, Belief is ... just belief, sometimes quite irrational, but convincing for the believer?
14:42:02 <sbp> followed by president Hu
14:42:15 <Arnia> dpawson: not using in the philosophical sense then
14:42:24 <Arnia> dpawson: in that sense knowledge is 'true' belief
14:42:36 <nsh> this is now officially a pointless discussion of wilfully noncoincident semantics
14:42:37 <nslater> faith perhaps would be a better word
14:42:39 <Arnia> Which is so arse backwards...
14:42:40 <nsh> enjoy.
14:42:47 <dpawson> Arnia, Both might convince me, but for different reasons?
14:42:56 <Arnia> meh
14:43:19 <sbp> Arnia: you're the only person here trained in philosophy, I think
14:43:30 <sbp> presumably nsh and I have some measure of it from various extra-curricular sources
14:43:33 <Arnia> nsh: it isn't pointless… it is *very* important to me and to my attempt to understand what it is to be intelligent
14:43:36 <nslater> can you be trained in philosophy?
14:43:36 <sbp> actually I did take a philosophy course once
14:43:46 <Arnia> I'm not trained in philosophy
14:43:50 <sbp> and I've taken many a philosophy of mind course... but no general introduction to philosophy stuff
14:43:51 <aspect> Arnia: well all communication is conditional of course .. I have to presume that you exist in order to converse with you. But it's practical and useful for us to each agree that we both exist, despite the fact that I know perfectly well that may not be true
14:44:00 <Arnia> I'm of a philosophical bent, but I have undergone no formal education in the subject
14:44:03 <sbp> well you're the only person with equivalent knowledge then :-)
14:44:15 <Arnia> aspect: that isn't exactly what I meant
14:44:24 <Arnia> dpawson: I take issue with your definition of knowledge actually
14:44:47 <Arnia> dpawson: but I also take issue with the epistemological definition much of the time, so…
14:45:02 <dpawson> Arnia, my definition of knowledge. Something happens and I can explain it logically, perhaps scientifically.
14:45:07 <Arnia> aspect: What I mean is that we can never determine that we share the same model
14:45:10 <sbp> my first philosophy course put me off because they started with the ancient Greeks
14:45:24 <dpawson> Arnia, +1
14:45:31 <sbp> and I was thinking "hey what? we're being taught things that were believed over *two thousand years ago*?!"
14:45:35 <dpawson> "We talk past each other"
14:45:54 <sbp> but now that I'm kinda getting in to it again, I'm thinking it makes sense to go through the history a bit first
14:46:00 <sbp> you sorta have to, it looks like
14:46:03 <Arnia> sbp: a lot of the ideas are still very valid, and you know as well as I do the importance of at least awareness of the history of a subject
14:46:05 <sbp> so that's ironic
14:46:09 <sbp> indeed
14:46:13 <nslater> sbp: is history of philosophy the only part of philosophy that can be taught?
14:46:24 <nslater> sbp: s/is/is not/
14:46:38 <sbp> well, you could teach all the philosophical ideas that have arisen in the past century
14:46:45 <sbp> and the modern summary of the state of affairs
14:46:46 <nslater> is that not just a history lessen?
14:46:48 <Arnia> dpawson: perhaps the best way to characterise my idea of knowledge is as communicable belief
14:46:50 <dpawson> sbp, Chinese medicine is a good example for me. No 'science' as defined today; but for it to have stood a few thousand years test of time, there must be something there surely
14:46:51 <nslater> lesson
14:46:55 <Arnia> (where communication includes 'action')
14:47:07 <sbp> er yeah, but I was talking about going back to the Greek (didn't you see?)
14:47:13 <aspect> Arnia: no, but we can identify correlating phenomena. What I call "red" and what you call "red" may be completely different physiological experiences, but when we find that we often point to the same things and call them "red" it becomes useful to work with this shared sample point.
14:47:13 <sbp> Greeks, even
14:47:21 <dpawson> Arnia, belief that the chain of logic is correct and provable?
14:47:24 * nsh frowns
14:47:25 <Arnia> aspect: er... actually we can't
14:47:40 * nslater is confused
14:47:41 <aspect> then how do I understand what you're saying?
14:47:49 <Arnia> aspect: please be reading Putnam and Gärdenfors
14:48:06 * sbp loves Gärdenfors
14:48:09 <sbp> (his name)
14:48:17 <Arnia> aspect: you don't understand what *I*'m saying. You understand what *you* are hearing.
14:48:30 <Arnia> Which is a very important distinction
14:48:31 <sbp> nslater: I mean, I was gonna be taught everything from the Greeks onwards
14:48:33 <nslater> sbp: maybe I misunderstood you, I read what you said as history of philosophy is important grounding before you study it properly, but I was trying to say that I have always thought of philosphy a bit like art, you can only teach it's history, the rest is up to you
14:48:43 <dpawson> "The message is that received, not necessarily the one sent"
14:48:49 <sbp> nslater: whereas I was like, just teach me what we know now, thinking that all the old stuff has been long superceded
14:48:55 <nslater> sbp: aha
14:49:30 <sbp> Hegel seems to have had the strongest word on this
14:49:43 <sbp> but I don't know much about Hegel. you kinda have to read him completely, it appears
14:49:55 <nslater> sbp: well, again, drawing parallels with art, the current state of afairs is grounded very definately in the past, so to understand it properly you really need to know it's reference points, or something like that :p
14:50:22 <sbp> what I've gathered from him so far is that he thinks of philosophy as nucleated but slightly transformational, so that new theories accumulate around the old theories and transform them a little
14:50:31 <Arnia> And Swhack comes full circle back to temporal provincialism
14:50:40 <aspect> Arnia: yes, but the fact that I think that you're saying it, and even more so that we can have a bi-directional dialogue, means there's a useful mapping between what I think I'm saying and what you think you're hearing. All conditional of course -- including so on my assumption that you actually exist.
14:50:57 <sbp> so that actually it's a bit of both. there is a modern perspective which has somewhat "obsoleted" the old perspective, *but* it also, wonderfully, depends on that old perspective!
14:51:09 * nslater nods
14:51:12 <sbp> but of course that's just what Hegel said, centuries ago. perhaps we've added to and transformed that now :-)
14:51:17 <Arnia> aspect: you're viewing communication as an all or nothing thing… something I take great umbrage with in the literature
14:51:22 * sbp really, really needs to read more about this
14:51:26 <Arnia> aspect: or at least you appear to be
14:51:30 * nsh frowns
14:51:54 * nslater finds nsh ammusing ;)
14:52:06 <nsh> glad someone's amused
14:52:13 <nslater> do you mean ammmused?
14:52:15 <Arnia> aspect: what I'm trying to say is that you can never define knowledge with reference to an external world precisely because we cannot definitely agree on a model. All we can do is communicate
14:52:15 <sbp> I TOO AM AMUSED
14:52:34 <Arnia> (hence the idea of knowledge as communicable belief)
14:52:43 <sbp> I asked somebody today what a pheasant sounds like
14:52:45 <dpawson> Arnia, how about 'try to communicate' based an assumed common model
14:52:47 <Arnia> It isn't knowledge unless I can communicate it with high fidelity
14:52:50 * nsh frowns
14:52:50 <sbp> and they said that they couldn't make the noise
14:52:59 <sbp> so I said “use your words to describe it!”
14:53:00 <Arnia> dpawson: too many details
14:53:05 <sbp> and they said it sounds like a cockerel gone wrong
14:53:10 <sbp> which I thought was awesome
14:53:14 * nsh smiles
14:53:15 <nslater> heh
14:53:18 <Arnia> dpawson: I always try and describe these things in semantic-agnostic terms
14:53:46 <Arnia> dpawson: mainly because I work in much more than model-theoretic semantics I want to be able to compare these systems
14:53:50 <dpawson> The level of language(complexity of terms etc) is one necessary shared model?
14:53:54 <nslater> sbp: ftfpl, have you looked at that when you were evaluating licences?
14:54:10 <Arnia> dpawson: No, that presumes that there is a model, and it can be shared
14:54:11 <sbp> doesn't ring a bell, unless you meant wtfpl
14:54:13 <aspect> Arnia: interesting. I was coming from the direction that communication requires some sort of shared model but I think I see the distinction you're trying to make.
14:54:25 <nslater> sbp: (from another channel where you are refered to as "palmer" much to my ammmusement)
14:54:38 <Arnia> dpawson: there are several semantic systems which do not have models or sharing
14:54:43 <dpawson> Taken to extremes, how can I communicate with you if we dont' share the same language?
14:54:51 <sbp> what channel?
14:54:55 <Arnia> dpawson: but we can
14:55:02 <Arnia> dpawson: we do not share the same language
14:55:10 <nslater> couchdb, you just came up in conversation to my suprise
14:55:11 * aspect boggles at the idea of a semantic system without models or sharing
14:55:11 <dpawson> Or vocab
14:55:14 <sbp> yeah, I can't find ftfpl so I'll assume you meant wtfpl
14:55:25 <sbp> in which case I have indeed. I think we even discussed it before! :-)
14:55:31 <Arnia> It just happens that we can communicate with high-enough fidelity for our own individual purposes
14:55:34 <nslater> yes, they meant wtfpl...
14:55:38 * nslater smiles
14:55:38 <Arnia> Not with reference to another's purpose even
14:55:42 <sbp> heh, heh
14:55:47 <nslater> sbp: can you remember your reason for not going with it?
14:55:50 <dpawson> Arnia, +1, its all shades of gray
14:55:55 <Arnia> aspect: yeah. It has taken me years to get my head around my own ideas :p
14:56:03 <sbp> as far as I recall, it's just a humorous statement of the public domain
14:56:09 <Arnia> dpawson: higher-order shades of grey at that
14:56:10 <sbp> so it doesn't have the "keep my name on this" clause
14:56:13 <nslater> sbp: okay...
14:56:15 * nsh frowns
14:56:25 <sbp> nsh: it's only politeness, really!
14:56:32 <sbp> licenses on this level just enforce politeness
14:56:41 <nsh> i'm still frowning at Arnia
14:56:46 <sbp> oh, hehe
14:56:47 <nsh> you're on smile level
14:56:55 <sbp> status: win
14:57:00 * nsh smiles
14:57:05 <Arnia> nsh: why are you frowning?
14:57:16 <nsh> if i could be bothered to explain i wouldn't just be frowning :-)
14:57:29 <sbp> nslater: the best wtfpl-class license is Talliesin's license
14:57:32 * dpawson reminds me of deep and sincere conversations in the common room. Set the world to rights before the next tutorial
14:57:39 <nslater> hmm, Arnia, from what I read about Wittgenstein he describe communication as the process of infering what the speaker/doer must have been feeling/thinking to have taken whatever action in order to "understand" - what do you think about this?
14:57:54 <sbp> nslater: "I really couldn't care less what anyone does with this, but claiming that they wrote it would be just sad and in asserting my right of intellectual property I assert my right to publicly ridicule anyone who does." - http://www.hackcraft.net/rssvalid.xsl
14:57:59 <nslater> Arnia: i.e. when you say "i am hungry" I only understand because I can infere what would have made ME say such a thing
14:58:08 <Arnia> Then I'll strike you from my record… I really don't have time for content-less criticism right now
14:58:15 <nslater> Arnia: and hence without shared experience real or imagined there can be no understanding
14:58:35 *** nsh changed the topic to: "<Monty> is sort of it wont be _THE_ masterpiece :) d…"
14:58:42 <nsh> hmm
14:58:47 <aspect> mmm there was that book by that Rothschild woman talking about awareness of other coming from empathy or projection in animals
14:58:49 <nsh> that doesn't even render in my title bar
14:58:51 <Arnia> nslater: hrm… I agree partially. But I believe you can do without invoking anything 'shared'
14:58:52 <sbp> *d...*
14:58:55 <sbp> o
14:58:55 <nsh> oh
14:58:57 <nsh> ffs
14:59:03 <sbp> actually you used an ellipsis it seems
14:59:07 <sbp> .u …
14:59:07 <phenny> U+2026 HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS (…)
14:59:08 <sbp> yes
14:59:18 <nsh> using unicode to replace keys that are already on the keyboard...
14:59:25 <Arnia> nslater: however, see the communicon model :)
14:59:28 <dpawson> Arnia, yes, shared is OK for less abstract stuff, but gets pretty rare the more abstract we get.
14:59:37 <sbp> the dots are like a micron further apart or something
14:59:43 <nslater> Arnia: hmm.... :)
14:59:45 <Arnia> I don't think it is ok at all
14:59:50 <sbp> also less byt... oh wait
15:00:23 <dpawson> Not even on a shared experience of hunger for example?
15:00:42 <sbp> ich bin hungrig
15:00:44 <aspect> Arnia: how can you have communication without sharing?
15:00:44 <Arnia> nslater: Everything I splurge here is connected in some fashion, even if only by virtue of me applying my self-same prejudices to the subject.
15:01:08 <nslater> Arnia: I started to notice that pattern a long time ago, there is no need to be explicit about it :)
15:01:40 <nslater> Arnia: oh, and that's a good thing in case my intonation doesnt carry over IRC :p
15:01:57 <Arnia> aspect: imagine for a moment that the other agent doesn't *really* exist, or rather that their existence is irrelevant. How would you define communication in an entirely self-centred fashion?
15:02:03 <sbp> ( Arnia )---( Arnia )---( Arnia )---( Arnia )--( Arnia ) <- multiple Arniæ connected together in a conceptual bubble structure; a work of avant garde ascii art by sbp, 2008
15:02:21 <Arnia> sbp: Good God. Do you want multiple me?
15:02:36 <sbp> yes, as long as they're in interwoven conceptual ascii bubbles
15:02:38 <nslater> Arniae, I like it
15:02:45 <sbp> *Arniæ*
15:02:55 <nslater> HEY, I STRUGLE ENOUGH WITH OS X'
15:02:58 <nslater> bah
15:02:59 <Arnia> sbp: what was that five-vowel word you came up with?
15:03:01 <nslater> KEYBOARD AS IT IS
15:03:01 <sbp> hehe
15:03:03 <nslater> ^^ PROOF
15:03:12 <aspect> Arnia: as construction and contemplation of a model
15:03:14 <sbp> five vowel... hmm. I don't recall. grepping!
15:03:23 <Arnia> sbp: Arniaouerve I think
15:03:25 <dpawson> <sbp>Unicode geek</sbp> (or does he have a 512x512 kbd?)
15:03:40 <Arnia> dpawson: Switch to the Welsh layout
15:03:54 <nsh> .gd decennium
15:03:54 <phenny> decennium: decade: a period of 10 years
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15:03:58 <Monty> Thank goodness, jeffarch is back!
15:04:01 <nslater> I have resorted to copying and pasting octothorps from my IRC window when I need to comment things out
15:04:03 * dpawson I have trouble with simple text!
15:04:13 <Arnia> nslater: Uh, option-3?
15:04:16 *** shepazu has quit ()
15:04:28 <nslater> Arnia: that takes me to my 3rd 'Space'
15:04:39 <Arnia> …
15:04:54 <nslater> now you're just showing off
15:04:58 <Arnia> Then change the shortcut keys for Spaces
15:05:40 <Arnia> “I have nothing to declare but my love of exuberant use of unusual characters.”
15:05:44 *** dpawson has parted #swhack ("ttfn")
15:05:49 <nslater> woot, it works now :)
15:05:58 <sbp> hmm, can't find it. only ‘Arniaistic’ and ‘Arniaesque’
15:06:04 <sbp> perhaps it was whilst the logs were down
15:06:09 <Arnia> It was in PRIVMSG
15:06:12 <sbp> ah!
15:06:36 <nslater> sbp: how do you grep for sylables?
15:06:38 <sbp> yep! Feb 28 14:30:14 <sbp> some kind of way of pointing people so as to say, "here, look at all this cool Arniaoeuvre"
15:06:48 <sbp> nslater: grep for syllables?
15:06:54 <aspect> Arnia: besides, by definition there is no communication with an agent that is irrelevant.
15:07:02 <nslater> sbp: my mistake
15:07:22 <nslater> sbp: I read vowels as sylables and was confuzzled when you said you would grep
15:07:44 *** Arnia_ (n=jgeldart@0-16-cb-bd-57-e.it.wlan.dur.ac.uk) has joined #swhack
15:08:21 <sbp> Arnia_: funny thing is, you didn't even comment on it at the time and yet I was all rapturing about it. and now you remember the context and I don't!
15:08:27 <Arnia_> silly network
15:08:29 *** Arnia has quit (Nick collision from services.)
15:08:31 *** Arnia_ is now known as Arnia
15:08:41 <sbp> (I found it. it was Arniaoeuvre)
15:09:15 <Arnia> I have a strange memory
15:09:31 <sbp> better than a bottom memory or a down memory, I guess
15:09:39 <Arnia> aspect: I don't think it is as irrelevant.
15:09:45 <Arnia> -as
15:10:40 <Arnia> aspect: It is about focusing attention to ask interesting questions; here the interesting question is 'what does communication look like to *me*, ignoring who I'm communicating with'
15:11:04 <aspect> but you can't! the point of communication is that it's transitive!
15:11:15 <Arnia> Is it? Who said?
15:11:16 <sbp> you're transitive
15:11:17 <aspect> if I do something without any expectation of a result, there's no communication there
15:11:31 <nsh> ur doin it [wrong] agen
15:11:46 *** nsh has parted #swhack ()
15:12:04 <aspect> (mind you, I count breathing as a form of communication. with my immediate atmosphere for a start, also with various parts of my own anatomy)
15:12:10 <nslater> lol, flame war in the GNU channel again
15:12:10 <Arnia> aspect: strange you say that you can’t… because I just have. I can’t know what you’re thinking, right?
15:12:31 <aspect> if I were irrelevant, you wouln't expend the energy typing at me
15:12:33 <Arnia> Oh action in an environment is definitely communication
15:12:53 <Arnia> aspect: *irrelevant for the purpose of asking the (meta)theoretical question*
15:13:58 <aspect> but the question is about communication, which is all about me ... it's like asking why we don't fall to the centre of the earth and ignoring the ground
15:14:29 <Arnia> aspect: uh, not really. It is about asking what parts of the system are interesting to eliminate
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15:15:02 <Arnia> aspect: And since we cannot invoke a shared model, we *must* develop a theory of communication which doesn't require one
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15:15:36 <aspect> hold on, I don't think we've got to shared models yet
15:16:02 <Arnia> Ugh, I'm talking out of order
15:16:35 <Arnia> Wait a second. I need to think about how to explain this in a fashion which can be expressed in a linear medium like IRC.
15:16:58 <aspect> thanks, I'll take a moment to top up my tea and collect my thoughts as well :-)
15:19:35 <sbp> sbp's guide to writing on IRC
15:19:52 <sbp> 1) At breakfast, write all the things that you want to say on IRC today on post-it notes.
15:20:04 *** guysoft42 (n=guysoft@85-250-201-150.bb.netvision.net.il) has joined #swhack
15:20:18 <sbp> 2) Fling the post-it™ notes randomly about the room. Some might even land on the dog. This is normal; this is acceptable.
15:20:57 <sbp> 3) ...all the rest of my post-it notes™ for this guide landed on the dog, and he's out in the yard. Sorry!
15:22:09 <sbp> it occurs to me that this is a subtle evolution of the “my dog ate my homework” excuse
15:25:17 <xover> There are non-linear mediums?
15:25:28 <Arnia> xover: a painting
15:25:32 <sbp> Spock
15:26:11 <xover> Arnia: I don't understand. Explain it to me. Paint me a picture. No, wait… :-)
15:26:13 <sbp> xover: there are even non-linear languages
15:26:22 <sbp> e.g. (well, i.e.; I don't know any other examples) sign language
15:26:47 <Arnia> sbp: non-linear conlangs
15:26:49 <sbp> that's not as non-linear as painting, admittedly
15:26:58 <sbp> ah, are there some? makes sense that there would be...
15:27:00 * sbp doesn't know of any
15:27:15 <Arnia> I'll chase a link
15:31:00 <aspect> mm I've been curious about sign since reading Sacks on it
15:31:23 <aspect> not taken up the effort to learn any, though
15:32:33 <Arnia> Ow: http://ouwi.org/writing.html
15:34:17 <sbp> ...ouch indeed!
15:34:56 <Arnia> I'd also like to mention Sowa's Conceptual Graphs here
15:35:27 <Arnia> And, as an intermediary between the linear and non-linear, Word Grammar
15:35:49 <sbp> “These chocolates are for the girl who helped me with math.”
15:36:31 <sbp> “(From now on, `I' = Dick Hudson.)”
15:37:00 <sbp> which is funny because he then continues: “It is still changing in detail”
15:37:14 <sbp> which obviously expands to “Dick Hudsont is still changing in detail”
15:37:14 <Arnia> He is an interesting bloke
15:37:40 <sbp> some vibe from him reminded me of...
15:37:51 <sbp> some guy on www-rdf-interesting from years ago whose name I can't remember. hang on
15:38:05 <Arnia> RDF and interesting in the same sentence?
15:38:11 <Arnia> Without a negation?
15:38:13 <Arnia> Wow
15:38:13 <sbp> Richard H. McCullough
15:38:19 <Arnia> Ah yes...
15:38:28 <sbp> www-rdf-interesting?! ehheh
15:38:33 <Arnia> Not sure the comparison is fair
15:39:03 <sbp> well note that this is based on having seen the top *screen and a half* of Hudson's page. not much to go on. also presumably much of this is just from the name similarities
15:39:25 <Arnia> Richard Hudson is a good linguist, whereas McCullough is a self-proclaimed knowledge engineer
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15:39:48 <Arnia> Another term I don't like that
15:39:55 <Arnia> hm... I need more flapjack
15:40:02 <sbp> well, I think McCullough had a long and distinguished regular engineering career
15:40:14 <sbp> in the aerospace industry. I get the sense that what he's doing now is a retirement project
15:40:21 <Arnia> Yeah, I just don't like the term knowledge engineering :)
15:40:26 <sbp> ah. heh
15:40:31 <sbp> how about knowledge farming?
15:40:37 <sbp> that's a metaphor I've been thinking about lately
15:40:45 <Arnia> sbp: oddly, I've heard that term before
15:40:49 <sbp> oh?
15:40:50 <Arnia> William came up with it
15:41:01 <sbp> which William? your supervisor?
15:41:04 <Arnia> As a description of what I'm proposing with the Active Web
15:41:05 <Arnia> Yeah
15:41:11 <sbp> aha. înteresting
15:41:37 <Arnia> What I'm doing is trying to grow these clouds
15:41:47 <sbp> .gc "cloud farm"
15:41:53 <phenny> "cloud farm": 12,100
15:41:55 <Arnia> Or to build a system which tries to grow these knowledge clouds
15:42:15 <Arnia> And I use 'knowledge' as I defined it
15:42:41 <sbp> yeah, I know roughly what you mean
15:43:14 <sbp> though I get distracted by your ever roving focus
15:43:51 <Arnia> aspect: actually I don't think I can explain this very well right now. Low blood sugar. Could I direct your attention to the Information Flow Framework and the idea of local logics?
15:44:07 <Arnia> aspect: otherwise I'll have to explain that as well :)
15:44:52 <Arnia> sbp: my focus isn't ever roving. It is just I *really* don't think linearly
15:45:01 <sbp> .gc "iff and only iff"
15:45:02 <Monty> DeadEd
15:45:02 <phenny> "iff and only iff": 142
15:45:17 <sbp> Arnia: what's the difference?
15:45:26 <kpreid> .gc "ifffy
15:45:27 <phenny> "ifffy: 1,820
15:45:33 <xover> .wik IFF
15:45:33 <phenny> "if and only if, a mathematical and logical connector indicating that either both statements are true or both are false" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IFF
15:45:39 <kpreid> .gc iff ifffy
15:45:39 <phenny> iff ifffy: 51
15:45:40 <xover> bah
15:45:52 <Arnia> sbp: I think about all of this stuff at once, not one bit at a time
15:46:05 <sbp> ah, parallelisation
15:46:22 <sbp> your focus is ever perl6-junctive
15:46:25 <sbp> heh
15:46:47 <Arnia> sbp: no... not parallelisation, more probability wavefunction-like
15:46:53 * nsh smiles
15:47:03 <sbp> fine! your focus is ever superpositional!
15:47:22 <sbp> or superpositionalesque
15:47:30 <Arnia> difficult to describe though what it feels like… consciousness is still serial, but I can relax and just let everything flow through me and not cling to any point
15:47:50 <sbp> sounds like what artists go through when they produce art
15:48:30 <Arnia> if I need a particular idea, I can grab it from the morass usually
15:48:34 <xover> Absinthe?
15:48:40 <sbp> choxelle
15:49:18 <Arnia> Sometimes, I fail though. The idea remains out of reach. Often this in the sense that I cannot focus on it. I can feel it, but not explain it. That is frustrating.
15:50:12 <sbp> hmm. perhaps this is like what happens to me when I'm trying to formulate what I call “themata”
15:50:34 <Arnia> Anyway, I find it difficult to describe these things to people. A lot of people I meet, especially in the sciences, cannot understand non-linear, non-deductive thought
15:50:35 <sbp> like, for example, I'm trying to munge together the etythesaurus, haibun, and fragmentary modes of composition
15:50:58 <sbp> into a particular thema, which is something I'd write an essay on, or make a piece of art using, or so on
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15:51:32 <Arnia> Yeah
15:51:44 <Arnia> But you and I both approach science as an art.
15:51:45 <sbp> another thing I've noticed (and see also the farm metaphor) is that a lot of my thoughts actually quite literally grow
15:51:57 <sbp> so my earliest ideas on a subject will just be a seed of an idea scribbled somewhere
15:52:03 <sbp> then I'll subconsciously develop it
15:52:08 <sbp> then write about it somewhere
15:52:14 <Arnia> This is seen as atrocious to many.
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15:52:30 <sbp> and then come across the old note that I wrote about it and go "wow, I didn't know I've been working on it this long", because it's been very subconscious
15:52:35 <Arnia> Some people get really… funny about deduction.
15:52:39 <Arnia> Yeah
15:52:53 <Arnia> sbp: what is important is to become a good farmer.
15:53:03 <sbp> yeah...
15:53:22 <sbp> can't just dope yourself up to the eyeballs and scream at the moon
15:53:23 <Arnia> To let go, and let the mind do what it does best, and only intervene consciously when one must.
15:53:44 <sbp> (well, some can. heh)
15:53:54 <sbp> I don't think I quite take it to that level
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15:54:00 <sbp> not in history/philosophy/science at least
15:54:06 <sbp> in art it's pretty necessary
15:54:16 <Arnia> To be honest, I can't imagine pure-deductive thought
15:54:41 <sbp> well, you can imagine narrative thought though, I presume?
15:54:51 <sbp> Feynman was a narrative thinker
15:54:53 <Arnia> The idea of thinking linearly like that seems impossible to me. I mean I know people do, but still
15:55:08 <sbp> Tukey and Tesla were imagistic thinkers
15:55:38 <Arnia> Yeah... I narrative think when I'm trying to explain an idea to someone else. It is useful at times
15:56:02 <Arnia> My primary mode is gumbo though
15:56:10 <sbp> Newton and the gravity thing is a nice example of your farm-gumbo, perhaps
15:56:22 <sbp> him sitting in the garden, seeing the apple drop, and wondering how high gravity's influence goes
15:56:26 <sbp> that's just a great example
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15:56:56 <sbp> you can't logically come up with these things. you have to have some kind of background stuff going on that gets triggered then by an event like the apple falling
15:57:32 <sbp> heh. farm-gumbo
15:57:58 <Arnia> Gumbo gumbo voicewar
15:58:27 <sbp> phenny always wins
15:58:33 <sbp> one day ChanServ's gonna go postal
15:59:00 <Arnia> like xover smiling at work
15:59:05 <sbp> hehe, yeah
15:59:21 <sbp> one day ChanServ will do something sensible and we'll all be like "shit, fire in the hole!"
15:59:56 * sbp just got spam from “Joshua Siegfred Hayes”
16:00:11 <Arnia> oh?
16:00:36 <sbp> yeah. I just thought the name was funny
16:00:49 <sbp> it's like “Peter F. Patel-Schneider”
16:01:03 <sbp> especially given the Hayes element
16:01:43 <sbp> man, Ouwl makes me dubious
16:01:49 <sbp> can even the deviser really natively speak it?
16:01:55 *** jeffarch (n=jja@pdpc/supporter/active/jeffarch) has joined #swhack
16:01:55 <sbp> will he understand his notes from five years ago?
16:02:11 <sbp> I made a language in 2006 that consisted only of notes written in the language itself
16:02:32 <sbp> I just scanned all the notes in, and obviously I got intrigued as to what it said, because it encoded a lot of my philsophical meanderings of the time
16:02:56 <sbp> and it was significantly hard to reconstruct. about a third I remembered, a third I gagued from context and other clues, and a third is still uncertain or lost
16:03:01 <sbp> which is kinda cool, really
16:03:16 <sbp> because it was also being developed very ardently
16:03:43 <sbp> so the lost words are a mix of words that I did intend to mean, and words which were part of the evolutionary process of the language, draft words, æsthetic trials, and so on
16:04:00 <sbp> in fact, I remembered some of what those words meant too
16:04:33 <sbp> especially the ones with a more logical design, though I tried to avoid being too... you know. oversimplistic and unrealistic
16:04:58 <sbp> though it's hard to make a particularly realistic language without using it, of course...
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16:05:29 *** cre8radix|off is now known as cre8radix|afk
16:06:11 <Arnia> yeah
16:06:44 <sbp> I was thinking about another language design last night. it was going to have a non-linear element: to introduce new terms, you'd encircle a new term with synonyms, a bit like a ruby run. I was gonna make it hangulesque to facilitate that
16:07:11 <sbp> the Ouwl stuff is actually very uncannily timed
16:07:21 <sbp> good bit of inspiration, even though it is kinda batty
16:07:30 <Arnia> I've been thinking about my crazy tense system
16:07:42 <sbp> your time travellers' tenses?
16:07:58 <Arnia> Yeah
16:08:21 <Arnia> I was thinking about Piercean notation and Conceptual Graphs and Word Grammar and NARS
16:08:31 <sbp> $ pump agent: Arnia for: information
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16:09:29 <Arnia> and how one would write down statements in a language which disconnected viewpoint and current temporal location utterly (including the causal connections between them)
16:10:19 <Arnia> I've realised it would look like graphs of graphs, where each statement is written as a conceptual graph, and the threads of causality would be drawn explicitly
16:10:39 <sbp> I suppose both of these gedankenexperiments are part of a bigger question: what is the best way to encode farm-gumbo style thoughts, for example as notes to self?
16:11:16 <sbp> are there natural non-linear mental shorthands?
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16:11:39 <sbp> (graph of graphs... heh)
16:11:40 <Arnia> Yeah. My usual method is just to scribe down short paragraphs summarising a point in the gumbo
16:12:08 <sbp> I've been using things that end up looking like contemporary poetry
16:12:11 <sbp> all disconnected
16:12:13 <sbp> voices
16:12:15 <Arnia> These can be read in any order, and that's one reason I've switched to A6 notebooks. The amount of room I have on a single leaf is just enough to fix a point
16:12:18 <sbp> meandering
16:12:23 <sbp> thoughts of spaces
16:12:28 <sbp> questioning:
16:12:31 <sbp> (why?)
16:12:49 <sbp> yeah, I love miniscule notebooks
16:12:53 <sbp> mine are even smaller than A6!
16:12:55 * sbp hugs them
16:12:57 <Arnia> wow
16:13:08 * Arnia hms
16:13:27 <Arnia> I'm now intrigued to actually produce a language like I've just described
16:13:29 <sbp> (the practical advantage is that you can put them pretty much anywhere)
16:13:47 <sbp> heh. make it so that I can use it, if you do? :-)
16:14:14 <sbp> I just googled for non-linear language, incidentally
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16:14:29 <sbp> all of the results are about modelling staochoistic blah this and whatever that
16:14:35 <Arnia> I can imagine certain stories would look very beautiful written in it, with the lines arcing around describing the complex temporal blends
16:14:44 <sbp> it's all programming languages rather than natural lanugages, in other words
16:14:57 <sbp> cf. Bernstein and hypertext stories
16:14:57 <Arnia> Would be a wonderful language for calligraphy
16:15:02 <Arnia> Yeah
16:15:04 <sbp> have you seen about Milorad Pavic's stuff?
16:15:09 <Arnia> No…
16:15:09 <sbp> Dictionary of the Khazars
16:15:15 <sbp> .wik Dictionary of the Khazars
16:15:16 <phenny> "Dictionary of the Khazars: A Lexicon Novel is the first novel by Serbian writer Milorad Pavich (Milorad Pavić), published in 1988." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_the_Khazars
16:15:26 <Arnia> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/nonlinear-programming-faq/
16:15:30 <sbp> it's a novel written as a dictionary, but the cool thing is that it has three sections
16:15:38 <sbp> it's a record of an ancient slavic culture
16:15:58 <sbp> and it's written from the point of view of the three local religions (Christianity, Islam, and... Judaism I think)
16:16:19 <sbp> so you have to reconstruct what actually went on from these three different viewpoints of lots of different events
16:16:28 <sbp> it's a nifty idea
16:16:41 <Arnia> Oh, I like
16:16:44 <Arnia> I really like
16:16:52 <Arnia> I'll have to buy that
16:16:56 <sbp> not only that, but there are two versions of the book!
16:17:13 <sbp> a female version and a male version (these are just names; I'm not sure there's any gender significance)
16:17:18 <sbp> and they differ only by a few words
16:18:05 <sbp> I think it would have been better if it were a lot longer
16:18:10 <Arnia> There is a link with the differences
16:18:14 <sbp> but it took him a lot of effort as it is, he says
16:18:16 <Arnia> They are gender related
16:18:17 <sbp> link: yeah, found that
16:18:22 <sbp> oh. forgot that :-)
16:19:52 <Arnia> .swhack %0.9%
16:20:01 <phenny> Arnia: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-04-04#T06-10-49
16:20:29 <Arnia> Huh... so LOAN has been coming since 2006? Wow
16:20:41 <sbp> (dinnar)
16:20:53 <Arnia> .swhack truth value syntax
16:21:16 <phenny> Arnia: Sorry, no results found.
16:21:26 <Arnia> .swhack syntax for truth values
16:21:49 <phenny> Arnia: Sorry, no results found.
16:22:00 <Arnia> .swhack %1;0.9%
16:22:25 <phenny> Arnia: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-02-03#T13-23-18
16:22:52 <Arnia> Oookay... 2005?
16:26:45 <kpreid> er, that's almost-Narsese
16:27:02 <kpreid> ...uh, not even almost
16:29:29 <Arnia> Oh, that was a different oookay. I was thinking about my ramblings about NARS
16:30:08 <Arnia> I mean I was introduced back in 2005, but I'm trying to reconstruct my thought processes
16:30:16 <Arnia> When I started having certain ideas
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16:30:39 <Monty> yo chris2!
16:40:10 <Arnia> sbp: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/conscripts.htm
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16:43:12 <mahound> hello
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17:09:45 <Pierre> sbp, ping?
17:10:05 <nslater> .title http://rubinsteyn.com/comp_photo/texture/
17:10:06 <phenny> nslater: Texture Synthesis
17:10:09 <nslater> Pierre: phenny help?
17:10:24 <Pierre> no :)
17:10:29 <nslater> okies :)
17:10:37 <Pierre> question about some code he wrote using GD
17:10:52 <Pierre> what is phenny btw? :)
17:10:57 <nslater> an IRC bot
17:11:08 <Pierre> oh, may need one for #libgd
17:11:10 * Pierre looks
17:13:14 <Pierre> nice bot :)
17:13:21 <nslater> very nice :p
17:13:32 <nslater> phenny!
17:13:32 <phenny> nslater!
17:13:37 <Pierre> :D
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17:49:25 <sbp> Pierre: hi!
17:49:28 <sbp> GD?
17:51:21 *** nsh (n=nsh@d85-194-245-82.cust.wlannet.com) has joined #swhack
17:51:21 <Monty> hey nsh
17:51:22 <Pierre> sbp, hello!
17:51:40 <Pierre> sbp, the seam carving sample code
17:51:58 <sbp> aha
17:52:23 <sbp> for the logs, http://inamidst.com/code/seamless.c
17:52:29 <Pierre> :)
17:52:33 <sbp> what's the question?
17:53:03 <Pierre> sbp, I'm the gd maintainer and I was wondering if I can commit it in gd cvs. There was a couple of requests for this feature but I did not get the time to play with the algos
17:53:14 <Pierre> sbp, your version may be a good start for someone :)
17:53:27 <sbp> you certainly may as much as I can authorise that
17:53:36 <Pierre> sbp, the question is which license do you use for it?
17:53:36 <sbp> as the code notes, it was massively influenced by another guy's code
17:53:42 <Pierre> oh right
17:53:42 <sbp> and I didn't get *his* permission
17:53:58 <sbp> presumably my license would be contingent on his license... :-)
17:54:06 * Pierre checks :)
17:54:16 <sbp> he didn't give it one as far as I know
17:54:28 <sbp> I kinda just assumed fair use; or more like: he probably wouldn't care less
17:54:37 <sbp> I mean, it's fairly trivial code
17:54:49 <Pierre> yup, why I like it :)
17:54:55 <sbp> I realise my modifications into the public domain
17:55:03 <sbp> (or if that's not legally possible, Creative Commons Zero)
17:55:04 <Pierre> easy to get the idea and improve it, for anyone willing to get a more advanced implementation
17:55:11 <sbp> s/realise/release/
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17:55:17 <Pierre> gd is under BSD, would it be ok?
17:55:21 <sbp> yeah
17:55:24 <Pierre> goodie :)
17:55:26 <Pierre> thanks :)
17:55:43 <sbp> no problem. would probably make an effort to trace down this Arthur B. though!
17:55:55 <sbp> and, major caveat: the code is buggy
17:56:03 <sbp> as it notes in the docstring, it crashes on large images...
17:56:10 <sbp> it was some pointer bug that I didn't quite work out