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00:02:06 <nslater> i dont understand totally, but cool :)
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00:09:20 <Arnia> Sorry to gush like this
00:09:27 <nslater> dont be silly
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00:12:17 <Arnia> I should probably get a bit of sleep
00:12:29 <nslater> likewise, night .o/
00:12:33 <Arnia> Night
00:23:53 <MoiraA> night
00:24:00 <MoiraA> off to London t9omorrow
00:24:11 <MoiraA> BCS spring conference Arnia :)
00:24:19 <Arnia> Woo
00:24:23 <MoiraA> that wonderful email, remember?
00:24:25 <MoiraA> haha
00:24:27 <Arnia> Oh yeah
00:24:38 <Arnia> Any interesting talks?
00:24:47 <MoiraA> anyway my plane goes in a few hours so must get some sleep
00:24:58 <MoiraA> I'll let you know if there were any :)
00:25:12 <Arnia> cool
00:25:13 <Arnia> Night
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01:24:02 <Monty> it's kpreid!
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02:32:47 <z^> phenny, "Remplacez le chemin du sys.path.insert par le chemin complet du répertoire dans lequel se trouve votre projet."?
02:32:50 <phenny> z^: "replace the way of the sys.path.insert by the complete way of the repertory in which your project is." (fr)
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02:48:01 <procto> nslater: you mean firebird db server?
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07:03:03 <WarPhoenix> Monty: hi
07:03:04 <Monty> tits craves thermometer :P
07:03:11 <WarPhoenix> :P
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07:14:44 <thelsdj> just bought assdot.org, couldn't resist that domain name since it was available
07:15:28 <thelsdj> must have recently expired
07:15:35 <thelsdj> cause last time i checked it wasn't available
07:15:55 <thelsdj> third result on google is swhack logs discussing
07:16:12 <thelsdj> 17:43:42 <thelsdj> damn, theres not a porn blog at assdot.org
07:16:12 <thelsdj> 17:45:57 <sbp> bwahaha
07:16:12 <thelsdj> 17:46:11 <sbp> there's no slash at slashdot.org either
07:16:12 <thelsdj> 17:46:59 <perigrin> you could change that with some CmdrTaco / Pudge slash I'm sure
07:17:11 <WarPhoenix> do you also plan to use it for the same purpose now?
07:22:24 <_bjoern> .g Virgill Artcity
07:22:25 <phenny> _bjoern: http://www.last.fm/music/Virgill/_/Artcity
07:24:03 <thelsdj> not sure
07:24:49 <WarPhoenix> or you could republish slashdot news with all images replaced with pr0n.
07:30:05 <thelsdj> thats an idea
07:34:18 <sbp> <nsh> AaronSw is so cool that silver-halide does not register his image
07:34:18 <phenny> sbp: 22 Apr 21:50Z <cre8radix|afk> tell sbp cre8radix in the morning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqsqieIubdg&NR=1
07:34:20 <sbp> er
07:34:22 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<nsh> AaronSw is so cool that silver-halide does not register his image"
07:36:24 * sbp deletes nsh's [pff] line
07:38:30 <sbp> phenny: tell cre8radix hahahahaha. OOD
07:38:30 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when cre8radix is around.
07:41:41 <sbp> awesome. there's a rare Coleridge book I want to look at of which only 250 copies were made
07:41:44 <sbp> and my library has it
07:41:47 <sbp> MY LIBRARY FOR THE WIN
07:41:58 <thelsdj> PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTT OOOOOOOOOOD
07:42:08 <_bjoern> .gc "want a Coleridge Pony"
07:42:08 <phenny> "want a Coleridge Pony": 0
07:42:40 <_bjoern> .title http://business.theage.com.au/japans-hunger-becomes-a-dire-warning-for-other-nations/20080420-27ey.html
07:42:42 <phenny> _bjoern: Japan's hunger becomes a dire warning for other nations | theage.com.au
07:42:59 <WarPhoenix> don't be that happy. What happens if the library catches ... umm... flu or fire before you can reach for the book?
07:43:36 <sbp> well if it catches flu I'll just wait till it gets better
07:43:44 <sbp> if it catches fire I can have all the joy of crying really hard
07:44:15 <sbp> also HELLO WARPHOENIX
07:44:21 <WarPhoenix> hello :)
07:44:22 <sbp> welcome to Swhack, this is a publically logged channel
07:44:26 <sbp> please identify your purpose
07:44:30 <WarPhoenix> sbp: yes, I read about it.
07:44:34 <_bjoern> NO, U ARE PUBLICALLY LOGGED
07:44:37 <WarPhoenix> sbp: idle chatter.
07:44:37 <sbp> NU
07:44:41 <_bjoern> nu
07:44:47 <sbp> excellent. well that is what we do (NU) best
07:45:01 <_bjoern> I never chatter idle.
07:45:10 <thelsdj> I idle without the chatter
07:45:20 <sbp> you people tickle my brainbunnies
07:45:26 <WarPhoenix> I read on the website, and I understand well that it's publicly logged, and any stupid nonsense (or scientific proofs nobody will care about) I am going to deliver here will be available to my kids 20 years later.
07:45:37 <_bjoern> Your brainbunnies tickle us when you are not watching.
07:45:56 <WarPhoenix> may be the brainbunnies are not having enough sechs?
07:46:19 <_bjoern> That is always a possibility, considering enough sechs is illdefined.
07:46:43 <WarPhoenix> it is defined by the physical limits after which you pass out.
07:46:56 <_bjoern> So you are saying there is a limit...
07:47:19 * sbp wonders if The Friend is online somewhere
07:47:32 <WarPhoenix> as long as the brainbunnies can allow to be distracted by tickling...
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07:48:50 <sbp> “The project is said to have run into problems because Page complained that the orchestra didn't keep time in the Western style and some of them drank rather a lot.” — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_(Led_Zeppelin_song)
07:49:59 <_bjoern> "Austin police said Thursday that they are leaning toward a ruling of suicide in the death of a middle school teacher and activist whose body was found Wednesday in Lady Bird Lake with his hands and legs bound and tape over his eyes." - http://www.statesman.com/search/content/news/stories/local/04/18/0418body.html
07:50:35 <sbp> the web does not appear to have The Friend
07:50:40 <sbp> the web still really sucks sometimes
07:50:43 <_bjoern> try usenet.
07:50:56 <sbp> ugh, they're likely to have it even less
07:51:12 <sbp> if the web has it 0 times, usenet will have it -1 times. unless it's some obscure warez thing
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07:51:31 <_bjoern> So you are saying Usenet would suck copies in if you had any?
07:52:41 <thelsdj> i guess that rules out binding my hands and legs and taping over my eyes to make my suicide look like a murder
07:52:45 <thelsdj> they'd be too smart for me
07:53:08 <sbp> oh, archive.org has some stuffs
07:53:12 <sbp> ooh: “Victoria Library copy vol. 2 is Kathleen Coburn's personal copy with some marginalia”
07:53:14 <_bjoern> I think the real challenge is making it look like an accident.
07:54:27 <thelsdj> night all
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08:14:49 <laplink> Stupid ISC DHCP. DWIM!
08:17:08 * _bjoern discovers GIF collection CDs from October 1993
08:18:21 <_bjoern> Whoa is this is a Mac+PC CD? The iso has all sorts of weird Apple_partition_map Apple_HFS "The Personal RomMaker for the Macintosh, Version 1.0" stuffs in it
08:23:47 <_bjoern> many of the gifs include the BBS phone numbers
08:25:19 <_bjoern> it includes viewers for amiga, atari st, dec, mac, msdos, windows, next, os2, sgi, sparc, and x11
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09:17:49 <cre8radix> SBP!
09:17:49 <phenny> cre8radix: 08:07Z <sbp> tell cre8radix hahahahaha. OOD
09:18:16 <cre8radix> hrhr
09:18:25 <cre8radix> ffffffffff
09:18:28 <cre8radix> ood
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09:51:43 <nslater> procto: ping?
09:52:05 <_bjoern> In Soviet Swhack procto pings YOU!
09:54:46 <nslater> phenny: tell procto http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/
09:54:47 <phenny> nslater: I'll pass that on when procto is around.
09:55:01 <nslater> phenny: tell procto http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/11/04/yahoo-fireeagle-a-platform-service-for-geo-information/
09:55:01 <phenny> nslater: I'll pass that on when procto is around.
09:57:37 <_bjoern> hmm http://www.nestle.co.uk/OurBrands/AboutOurBrands/ConfectioneryAndCakes/Yorkie.htm
09:58:29 <nslater> _bjoern: hmm?
09:59:03 <_bjoern> Why is it that some people are prone to ask utterly unspecific questions, often nothing more than "?"?
09:59:13 <nslater> okay, why did you post that link?
09:59:33 <nslater> you could have infered as much ;)
10:00:17 <_bjoern> because the page made me "hmm", didn't I say as much?
10:00:29 <nslater> why did it make you "hmm" then?
10:00:41 <_bjoern> Why wouldn't it?
10:01:36 <nslater> well, I don't know, that chocolate is named after my home town and having been aware of it's existence for most of my life, there's not much about it that makes me go "hmm" - so when you posted the link I was interested to know what made you do so
10:01:40 <nslater> ... this is hard work :p
10:02:53 <_bjoern> Well everything from "man sized eat" to "IT'S NOT FOR GIRLS" including the logo I would think.
10:04:09 <nslater> meh, I guess I've kinda got used to it - on the train journey into York, there used to be a massive billboard saying "Welcome to York, where the men are hunky and the chocolates chunky." - what with Nestle having the UK headquarters here :p
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10:07:25 <cre8radix> nslater: heya
10:07:30 <nslater> hey
10:07:38 <cre8radix> howzit?
10:08:03 <nslater> um, fine, tired
10:08:14 <nslater> you?
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10:23:15 <KragenSitaker> hi. consider http://watchdog.net/p/henry_waxman.n3
10:23:36 <_bjoern> hmm Sony buys CDDB's Gracenote
10:23:43 <KragenSitaker> fucking sony
10:23:44 <KragenSitaker> fucking cddb
10:23:50 <KragenSitaker> fucking gracenote
10:23:54 <KragenSitaker> bunch of fucking thieves
10:23:55 <Monty> potty mouth!
10:23:55 <_bjoern> yo KragenSitaker
10:24:00 <_bjoern> long time no swhack!
10:24:03 <KragenSitaker> yeah
10:24:10 <KragenSitaker> i've been trying to get stuff done
10:24:18 <_bjoern> You don't say!
10:24:26 <KragenSitaker> Now I want to add a representation of interest groups' interests to that N3 file
10:24:37 <KragenSitaker> s/interests/ratings/
10:24:56 <KragenSitaker> like, the ACLU rated Waxman as 100% compliant with their values in 2006
10:25:29 <nsh> .c 120 gbp in euro
10:25:29 <phenny> 120 British pounds = 149.855236 Euros
10:25:55 <nsh> hey KragenSitaker
10:25:58 <nsh> nice to see you mang
10:26:04 <KragenSitaker> thanks
10:26:33 <KragenSitaker> I think what I want is something like :rating [:organization "ACLU"; :year "2006"; :rating "100"];
10:26:50 <KragenSitaker> but I'm too ignorant about RDF to be sure that that's the right approach
10:27:13 <KragenSitaker> let alone that I have the notation right
10:27:48 <KragenSitaker> but the idea is that there would be, say, 18 arcs out of Waxman's node, each of type :rating, to these anonymous nodes that have an :organization, a :year, and a :rating
10:28:08 <KragenSitaker> (i guess i should have different names for the two meanings of :rating)
10:28:21 <KragenSitaker> is that the right approach?
10:28:50 * nsh professes great ignorance of rdf
10:28:51 <_bjoern> sounds a bit like http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.microsoft.com;output=n3
10:28:54 <nsh> but why 18 nodes?
10:29:17 <KragenSitaker> suppose there are nine organizations, each of which have rated Waxman in each of two years
10:29:29 <nsh> ah
10:30:02 <KragenSitaker> (the other reason i haven't been in #swhack is that apparently sbp banned some of my favorite people: jcowan and kandinski in particular.)
10:30:36 <KragenSitaker> (and it makes me sad to think that he thinks of the channel as a space he has the right to ban people from because he doesn't get along with them.)
10:31:39 <nsh> 'tis a shame
10:32:46 <KragenSitaker> (i always sort of thought of it as being a community space, not a single person's fief. but i guess sbp felt differently, because afaict the ban wasn't because they were making the channel unpleasant; just because he had some private quarrel with them.)
10:32:54 * nsh does not feel entitled to raise an opinion, but does miss the conversational diversity
10:34:01 <_bjoern> Hmm Segate sold 79 Exabyte worth of storage, over 1 billion drives, over the last 29 years.
10:34:35 <nsh> but blood is like money; makes no sense to throw good after bad
10:34:57 * nsh wonders how many of those are still healthy bytes
10:35:19 <KragenSitaker> nsh: i think of you as being a major contributor to the channel as well, so i think you're entitled to raise an opinion
10:36:49 <nsh> nah, i'm just the sandwich guy. metaphilosophical ramblings sandwiched between institutionalisable randomness
10:37:05 <nsh> this is interesting though: http://www.panmere.com/?p=66
10:37:27 * nsh has to get around to reading Rosen's [Essays on] Life Itself
10:38:04 <nsh> so, you still roaming the americanos centrales, KragenSitaker?
10:39:08 <KragenSitaker> no, living in buenos aires
10:39:27 <KragenSitaker> looking for a temporary company president for the first few months for a company i'm starting
10:39:55 <nsh> what's the mandate?
10:40:04 <KragenSitaker> maybe a lawyer or something --- basically to sign contracts and so on on behalf of the company during the first few months, until I can get a work visa and take over
10:40:19 <KragenSitaker> develop software, teach, do research
10:40:26 <nsh> ah, all good things
10:40:41 <nsh> there should be open-source collaborative legal off-sourcing
10:40:49 <nsh> hiring lawyers is the first step to hell
10:40:53 <KragenSitaker> law is generally open-source
10:40:58 * nsh smiles
10:41:10 <KragenSitaker> contracts and briefs are held, in the US anyway, to be uncopyrightable
10:41:23 <KragenSitaker> i don't know if that's true in argentina too
10:42:01 <nsh> unfortunately the peripheral devices required to render the publically-accessible information are generally paid three figures by the hour
10:42:12 <nsh> *render ... into useful format
10:42:22 <KragenSitaker> that's true with open-source software too
10:42:38 <nsh> i guess
10:43:07 <nsh> but the internet has great potential for reducing redundancy and making previous results available for simple extension
10:43:29 <KragenSitaker> yeah, and that's true in law as well
10:43:34 <nsh> right
10:43:38 <KragenSitaker> which i guess is what you were saying ;)
10:43:44 * nsh smiles
10:43:55 <KragenSitaker> see, eventually i can grasp an idea ;)
10:44:11 <nsh> i get that occasionally
10:44:23 <nsh> but i try to avoid it happening too often
10:44:32 <nsh> ideas tend to avalanche
10:44:33 <nsh> .ety avalanche
10:44:34 <phenny> "1771, from Fr. avalanche, from Romansch avalantze 'descent,' altered (by metathesis of -l- and -v-, probably influenced by O.Fr. avaler 'to descend, go down') from Prov. lavanca 'avalanche,' perhaps from a pre-L. Alpine language (the suffix -anca suggests Ligurian)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=avalanche
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10:45:28 * nsh goes to add anti-bacterial agents to fly-food
10:47:18 <nsh> .wik Impredicativity
10:47:19 <phenny> "In mathematics and logic, impredicativity is the property of a self-referencing definition." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impredicativity
10:47:47 <nsh> .wik Closed timelike curve
10:47:47 <phenny> "In a Lorentzian manifold, a closed timelike curve (CTC) is a worldline of a material particle in spacetime that is 'closed,' returning to its starting point." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve
10:48:17 <nsh> .wik Lucasiewitz logics
10:48:18 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Lucasiewitz logics".
10:48:40 <nsh> .wik Lucasiewicz logics
10:48:41 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Lucasiewicz logics".
10:48:51 * nsh can never spell polish names
10:48:56 <nsh> .wik Lukasiewicz logics
10:48:57 <phenny> "In mathematics, Łukasiewicz logic is a non-classical, many valued logic." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81ukasiewicz_logic
10:50:32 <nsh> point is, the church-turing thesis does not apply in a universe manifesting impredicativity due to operating under multi-valued self-referencial logics of closed causal loops
10:51:52 <_bjoern> nice http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_02/playgraphicDM1406_736x800.jpg
10:52:40 <nsh> ironic
10:53:23 <_bjoern> I suppose I'm with the great grandfathers then, being allowed to ride my bike to my elementary school by myself (about 7km I think)
10:53:26 <nsh> as the daily mail is one of the papers whose business model appears to be pandering to the fear and intolerance required to finally reduce those loci to points
10:53:47 <_bjoern> fear of fear obviously here.
10:55:29 <KragenSitaker> hey, so speaking of impredicativity
10:55:40 <KragenSitaker> i ran into the following awesome paradox on wikipedia the other week
10:55:49 <KragenSitaker> "If this sentence is true, then Santa Claus exists."
10:56:31 <_bjoern> I don't see the paradox
10:57:14 * _bjoern goes read the definition of paradox again
10:57:16 <KragenSitaker> well, suppose the sentence is true. then what happens?
10:58:42 <_bjoern> then Santa Claus exists?
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11:00:59 <Monty> bah, it's nwalsh again
11:01:11 <aspect> only if the sentence is true!
11:01:50 <_bjoern> Yes?
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11:03:20 <KragenSitaker> well, that's what the sentence says
11:03:27 <KragenSitaker> so if you believe that the sentence being true would imply that Santa Claus existed
11:03:41 <KragenSitaker> then you believe that what the sentence says is true, right?
11:04:02 <KragenSitaker> since the sentence says precisely that that sentence being true would imply that Santa Claus existed.
11:04:50 <_bjoern> I am following, but probably not really agreeing
11:05:00 <aspect> but if it were true, Santa Claus must exist
11:05:30 <KragenSitaker> well, if you're not agreeing, then perhaps we should go a little slower
11:06:01 <KragenSitaker> if the sentence is true, then what it says is true, which is that if it's true, then Santa Clasu exxists
11:07:07 <KragenSitaker> right?
11:07:30 <KragenSitaker> Or is there a way for the sentence to be true, without Santa Claus existing?
11:09:39 <_bjoern> Well obviously the statement is self-referential, like sub f { if ( f() ) { return true } } which would never terminate.
11:10:50 <KragenSitaker> It's certainly true that it is self-referential, but I'm not asking about how much time you might need to think about it, or do something else with it.
11:11:10 <KragenSitaker> I'm just pursuing the question of whether it's true or not.
11:11:36 *** crschmidt (i=crschmid@bia.crschmidt.net) has joined #swhack
11:11:41 <KragenSitaker> After all, the sum of 1/2^N for positive integer N doesn't "terminate" either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a value.
11:12:04 <KragenSitaker> So I ask again: is there a way for that sentence to be true, without Santa Claus existing?
11:12:29 <KragenSitaker> hi crschmidt
11:12:54 <_bjoern> But you need to know if it's true to decide whether it's true.
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11:13:45 <_bjoern> Well perhaps in that sense it is paradoxial
11:14:04 <_bjoern> It's similar to chicken <> egg in a way.
11:14:06 <KragenSitaker> I'm not asking whether you think the sentence is true; I'm asking whether it would be possible for it to be true in a possible world without Santa Claus.
11:14:49 <laplink> In an infinite universe, all manner of things is possible.
11:15:38 <KragenSitaker> Because it seems to me that it would embody a contradiction in such a world: it asserts that if it is true, then there is a Santa Claus; but there is no Santa Claus, and therefore if it is true it must be false, so it cannot be true.
11:15:56 <KragenSitaker> But it could be false in such a possible world, couldn't it?
11:17:06 <_bjoern> Schrödinger's Santa.
11:17:20 <KragenSitaker> Since if it is false, it doesn't matter what it asserts.
11:17:24 <nslater> hehe, http://www.movieplotgenerator.com/sampler.html
11:17:27 <KragenSitaker> Right?
11:17:47 <nslater> "A group of orthadox rabbis become pimps in two hours of the raunchiest hardcore porno action ever seen@
11:18:12 <nslater> pls be making your own movie plots and sharing them :)
11:18:59 <nslater> "A gangsta rapper discovers the wonders of self pleasure in the feel-good comedy of the year"
11:19:19 <nslater> pfft, it's only a sampler, not that many things to cycle through :(
11:20:17 <KragenSitaker> _bjoern: Do you agree that it would be impossible for the sentence to be true in a possible Santa-less world?
11:22:05 <_bjoern> I think I don't have the tools to answer that question, I would consider the statement to be malformed, invalid, and hence not approachable with the tools I have.
11:24:19 <KragenSitaker> Goodness, it's quite straightforward.
11:24:52 <nslater> "If this sentence is true, then Santa Claus exists." - seems like a variation on the liars paradox to me
11:25:12 <KragenSitaker> An implication whose conclusion is false either must be false or have a false premise.
11:25:21 <KragenSitaker> Or both.
11:26:16 <KragenSitaker> Is that not so?
11:27:13 <nslater> in fact, that sentence doesn't say anything at all, it's completely vacuous
11:27:36 <KragenSitaker> For example, if I say, "If the cat had thrown up on the couch, then it would have vomit on it," and you can see that the couch has no vomit on it, then you can conclude either that the cat didn't throw up on the couch, or that I'm making a false statement.
11:27:47 <KragenSitaker> (Maybe I cleaned the couch since the cat threw up on it.)
11:29:19 <nslater> KragenSitaker: how can that previous sentence have any truth value? it doesn't state anything
11:29:32 <KragenSitaker> nslater: With the cat and the couch?
11:29:36 <nslater> no, santa
11:29:43 <KragenSitaker> I haven't gotten there yet
11:30:01 <nslater> KragenSitaker: it's only statement is about it's self, which as it doesn't state anything doesn't mean anything, so it can't have a truth value
11:30:34 *** leobard has quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
11:30:57 <KragenSitaker> No, it makes a statement about Santa.
11:31:11 <nslater> no, I don't think it does
11:31:15 <KragenSitaker> But if it makes you feel better, we could incorporate other clauses.
11:31:30 <nslater> it makes a statement about santa on a conditional that has no meaning, so in effect makes no such statement
11:31:34 <KragenSitaker> For example, "If this sentence is true and the north pole is snowy, then Santa Claus exists."
11:31:41 <KragenSitaker> That's circular reasoning!
11:31:45 <nslater> that's totally different
11:31:55 <KragenSitaker> You're assuming that the sentence has no meaning in order to demonstrate that it has no meaning.
11:32:00 <nslater> you're making an assertion about something that has a truth value, the north pole's snowyness
11:32:19 <laplink> If I say so, Santa Clause exists; otherwise he doesn't. There. Settled.
11:32:29 <KragenSitaker> Okay. So let's consider this second sentence, with the extra clause.
11:32:37 <nslater> im not, I'm saying that as the only thing it is making a statement about it's self it effectively makes no statement
11:32:47 <KragenSitaker> Can it be true in a possible world where the north pole is snowy, but Santa Claus doesn't exist?
11:32:47 <Talliesin> "If this sentence is true, we will eventually have agreement on all questions about logical structure of sentences".
11:33:11 <nslater> KragenSitaker: yes, you could be a liar
11:34:25 <KragenSitaker> Where do I come into it? It's only really relevant whether the sentence is a lie or not.
11:34:30 <KragenSitaker> My character is totally beside the point.
11:34:35 <nslater> not at all, the person making the statement could be a liar
11:34:48 <nslater> or rather, the sentence could be a lie
11:34:50 <nslater> it's the same thign
11:34:59 <KragenSitaker> So if the sentence is a lie, then it's not true, is it?
11:35:07 <nslater> it could be half true
11:35:26 <KragenSitaker> Suggesting that it could be true by being a lie seems kind of crazy to me.
11:35:38 <nslater> you lost me
11:35:45 <KragenSitaker> And it's not really possible for it to be half-true in the usual sense, is it?
11:35:57 <nslater> sure, I could say "I like pizza and I am a girl"
11:36:02 <nslater> that's a half true statement
11:36:18 <KragenSitaker> Considered as a single statement, it's simply false.
11:36:28 <KragenSitaker> (Assuming you either don't like pizza or aren't a girl.)
11:37:24 <KragenSitaker> Okay, I'm going to run off now.
11:37:30 <nslater> hehe
11:37:47 <KragenSitaker> Since this is insufficiently interactive to be productive, but sufficiently interactive to be distracting.
11:37:55 <KragenSitaker> If anyone wants to talk about N3, I'd be delighted.
11:44:07 *** MorbusIff (n=morbus@c-24-34-64-110.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
11:45:47 <_bjoern> I posted a link to the Validator output that seemed similar to what you wanted KragenSitaker, in case you missed that.
11:51:12 *** jeffarch (n=jja@pdpc/supporter/active/jeffarch) has joined #swhack
11:51:28 <_bjoern> I've been trying to find a DeltaSync spec but there seems little about it on the web
11:53:39 * nsh senses that he missed a failtacular conversation
11:56:14 * sbp espies “N3” and agreeëth with nsh
11:57:01 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<nsh> metaphilosophical ramblings sandwiched between institutionalisable randomness"
11:58:33 <sbp> “i always sort of thought of it as being a community space, not a single person's fief. but i guess sbp felt differently” - yep
11:58:53 <sbp> OOD
12:03:19 <nslater> .define OOD
12:03:36 <sbp> nslater: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqsqieIubdg&NR=1
12:03:57 <sbp> (wherein is to be found ye definition of OOD)
12:05:04 <nslater> so sbp, are you the Swhack BDFL? :p
12:05:12 <_bjoern> .title http://www.upi.com/International_Security/Emerging_Threats/Briefing/2008/03/24/nsa_releases_new_version_of_linux_software/9918/
12:05:19 <phenny> _bjoern: NSA releases new version of Linux software - UPI.com
12:05:53 <sbp> phenny: tell KragenSitaker that a metaphor that may help is of me holding meetings of my friends in my drawing room. if certain people I fall out with on a spectacular level, then I do not invite them back. at the end of the day, your “feeling” or “opinion” doesn't carry any weight over the channel access list—this is how politics on IRC work. note also some extra formality to this notion in that we are +s now, as a channel
12:05:53 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when KragenSitaker is around.
12:05:56 * nslater wishes phenny had an old-news-auto-kick feature ;)
12:06:03 <sbp> nslater: no “B”, ironically
12:06:10 <nslater> sbp: heh heh
12:06:21 <sbp> I mean seriously people, get over it! tough shit! IRC IZ SRS BSNS!!!
12:06:31 * nslater laughs
12:08:32 <sbp> so one meme that I've been going on about lately is brainbunnies
12:08:40 <sbp> I think I've used it in here once, but it's becoming a word of the week
12:08:49 <sbp> well anyway, I'm thinking about brainbunnies as I go into a meeting
12:08:51 <laplink> +s?
12:08:55 <sbp> and there, outside the building... is a rabbit
12:09:09 <sbp> I couldn't believe it. this is not a place where you'd normally expect to find rabbits
12:09:21 <_bjoern> secret, not in channel list, no access to /names etc. for people not on the channel.
12:09:21 <sbp> it was just stortling around nibbling the grass on the verge and stuff
12:09:27 <laplink> Metaphysical Brainbunnies!
12:09:29 <sbp> I'm like, woah dude. one got free!
12:09:48 <laplink> But… But… Neo85?!?
12:10:12 <sbp> yeah, well. we've sucked a bit at that lately
12:10:14 <nslater> what do brainbunnies do? what is their raison d'être?
12:10:32 <sbp> well for example, you might say that your brainbunnies are getting bored
12:10:39 <sbp> as I said today when I was waiting for a room to be opened
12:11:00 <sbp> or you might say that they've been working overtime, or are tired, or have been fucking at an outstanding rate of knots
12:12:15 <nslater> DAMN
12:13:43 <KragenSitaker> sbp: I understand your point of view. It's just disappointing to me that you think of #swhack as your drawing room, rather than a space that belongs to the group of people who use it.
12:13:43 <phenny> KragenSitaker: 12:35Z <sbp> tell KragenSitaker that a metaphor that may help is of me holding meetings of my friends in my drawing room. if certain people I fall out with on a spectacular level, then I do not invite them back. at the end of the day, your “feeling” or “opinion” doesn't carry any weight over the channel access list—this is how politics on IRC work. note also some extra formality to this notion in that we are +s now, as a channel
12:14:50 <KragenSitaker> I don't think it's accurate to say that "this is how politics on IRC work". Some channels are individual people's fiefs; most belong to a group of regulars, collectively.
12:15:00 <sbp> KragenSitaker: well my opinion is based on various formative events, of course; a very subjective thing. I'm just as entitled to my opinion as yours, only mine is technologically backed
12:15:21 <sbp> I don't mind discussing it with you, though I consider it a bit *banal* (pronounced: BAN-ahl. heh)
12:15:33 <KragenSitaker> sbp: you're not talking about your opinion, but about your chosen course of action.
12:15:56 <sbp> which is founded on my opinions about various social things, mang!
12:16:10 <sbp> I don't do things on autopilot, or look 'em up in a manual
12:16:11 <KragenSitaker> Hm, I probably shouldn't be talking about this right now. I'm a little sleepy and probably prone to misjudging things.
12:16:29 <sbp> as I say, I'm sorry you're upset...
12:16:41 <KragenSitaker> I'm not really upset. Just sad.
12:16:45 <sbp> but it's going to take a lot more than "don't do that" to convince me of how my opinion ought be different
12:16:55 <sbp> well I'm sad too
12:16:59 <sbp> TINOS, as usual
12:17:06 <KragenSitaker> hm?
12:17:10 <sbp> so I just do whatever. people are bound to be sad
12:17:15 <sbp> There Is No Optimal Solution
12:17:22 <KragenSitaker> Ah.
12:17:23 <nslater> hehe, you saved me a .define
12:17:26 <sbp> heheh
12:17:30 <KragenSitaker> No, but there are better and worse ones.
12:17:41 <KragenSitaker> Anyway, back to the RDF mines with me.
12:17:48 <sbp> yeah, but judging things that are so delicately socially bound and blah blah is muy difficul
12:18:20 * sbp made a qualitative decision to ditch working on or supporting RDF entirely
12:18:26 <sbp> and I encourage you to do the same! :-)
12:18:37 <sbp> but let's leave that argument for when you're less tired and I care a bit more, perhaps :-)
12:22:12 <sbp> -> [on]
12:22:16 <nslater> heh
12:22:18 <sbp> Morbus has a good point about acting in public
12:22:29 <nslater> oh?
12:22:45 <sbp> he noticed that if he's on a train or something and he needs to check the time, he always checks his watch very deliberately and tuts or whatever
12:23:11 <nslater> ...
12:23:12 <sbp> even little things like that can get acted. after he said that, I notice I do it too
12:23:32 <nslater> yes, it's true, we all do it
12:23:38 <nslater> nice observation
12:23:47 <sbp> plus I felt very awkward on the train today
12:23:52 <sbp> I read an hilarious joke about Kubla Khan
12:23:57 <nslater> it's even more profound when you're directly dealing with strangers all the time
12:24:00 <sbp> and I just couldn't help busting up laughing
12:24:08 <sbp> and the more I tried to hold it back, the more I laughed of course
12:24:13 <sbp> people just don't laugh on trains
12:24:13 <nslater> heh
12:24:20 <nslater> no no, it's not done :)
12:24:31 <sbp> it was just so funny. I'll write it up for Whits in a mo'
12:25:53 <nslater> heha
12:25:55 <nslater> hehe
12:28:48 <sbp> anybody remember that article that someone posted a while ago about funny things people do to ticket conductors?
12:29:16 <nslater> sbp: ever looked at nlp?
12:29:31 <sbp> nlp? the only nlp I know is natural language processing
12:29:44 <nslater> .wik nlp
12:29:44 <phenny> "Natural language processing, an area of computational linguistics" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nlp
12:29:48 <nslater> .wik nlp programming
12:29:54 <phenny> "Neuro-linguistic programming (usually shortened to NLP) is an interpersonal communication model and an alternative approach to psychotherapy[1]| based on the subjective study of language, communication and personal change.[2]| Some consider NLP to still be a set of [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
12:30:38 <KragenSitaker> kpreid: did they turn off the SOAP API?
12:30:39 <sbp> nslater: which thing did you mean?
12:30:47 <kpreid> KragenSitaker: yes
12:31:03 <KragenSitaker> oh, that's what simon's post is about
12:31:09 <kpreid> or wait, they stopped giving out keys; dunno if they turned it off
12:31:19 <sbp> yeah, I only heard they stopped giving out keys
12:31:26 <sbp> last I know is that the service still works for those with keys
12:31:29 <sbp> but I may be out of date on that
12:31:30 <KragenSitaker> phenny still has a key, no?
12:31:42 <KragenSitaker> .gc rdf-xml
12:31:42 <phenny> rdf-xml: 1,560,000
12:31:48 <sbp> well I still have a key, but that wouldn't be very helpful for the public distribution
12:31:56 <nslater> sbp: neuro-linguistic programming, it felt kinda related - sorta links with the concept of people acting, you can use this to subtly change things and get people to act differently, think derren brown, he uses a lot of NLP for his performances
12:32:03 <sbp> I could let people use my key, but it's limited to 1000 searches per day, if it even still works
12:32:20 <KragenSitaker> i didn't mean for public distribution
12:32:29 <KragenSitaker> just that phenny still works
12:32:32 <sbp> I'd like something that anybody can use, without ToS violation, especially now phenny is packaged for debian (thanks to nslater)
12:32:49 <sbp> yeah. I sort of quasi-flit between considering our phenny and considering the wider use...
12:32:57 <nslater> sbp: derren brown uses the NLP and related techniques to get away with not paying for stuff, cashing in on loosing lotery tickets, taking the wallet from someone by ASKING for it, etc etc
12:32:58 <sbp> I really only built her for us, but...
12:33:06 <sbp> nslater: lookin'...
12:33:57 <sbp> hmm, lists Korzybski as an influence
12:34:05 <KragenSitaker> maybe she could display the google logo URL
12:34:17 <KragenSitaker> or just "Google" with the correct colors
12:34:34 <sbp> it's funny how often I've mentioned NLP to people expecting them to divine that it's Natural Language Processing in context and they've gone "neuro-linguistic programming?"
12:34:42 <nslater> heh
12:34:57 <sbp> I keep wondering if they're all into neuro-linguistic programming, or if it's just the first expansion that they tend to find on Google. or both
12:35:10 <nslater> NLP is pretty common/popular/wellknown
12:35:12 <sbp> should ask the next person who does it
12:35:13 <KragenSitaker> so you should look up the lawsuit between Bandler and Grinder
12:35:20 <sbp> *which* NLP? :-)
12:35:26 <nslater> my one
12:35:33 <nslater> for local definitions of mine
12:35:34 <Monty> most bizzar of others. Essentially one meme that competition Arsenal's not in buenos aires
12:35:36 * sbp does so
12:35:53 <sbp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_neuro-linguistic_programming seems to have some background on the lawsuit
12:36:34 <sbp> what the...
12:36:45 <sbp> heh, I love reading Wikipedia articles when suddenly there's an unexpected sentence
12:36:50 <nslater> sbp: as I read more about NLP I start noticing more things about my inter-personal relationships which really amuse me, like NLP has a big thing about "rapport" which is the physical and non-verbal matching or paring of behaviours
12:36:52 <sbp> here it was the final one in “In 1980 Bandler's collaboration with Grinder abruptly ended and also Leslie Cameron-Bandler filed for divorce. Bandler, Grinder and their group of associates parted ways. Matters were not helped by Bandler's trial for murder.”
12:37:18 <sbp> nslater: what work(s) did you use to get into it?
12:37:39 <nslater> I start to notice that when Im talking to someone I like I will shift my body into the same position without being aware of the decision to do so, and when they lift an arm to put on the back of the head I will do the same - but I always notice AFTER the event
12:38:10 <nslater> sbp: Derren Brown's Tricks of the Mind got me into it, it's a really very funny and fascinating book
12:38:43 <nslater> see the section "Techniques" on the main article
12:38:51 <nslater> .g tricks of the mind amazon
12:38:52 <phenny> nslater: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tricks-Mind-Derren-Brown/dp/1905026269
12:38:53 <sbp> I'm not sure I feel so great about a social programming method whose two main inventors/proponents/whatever fell out massively and convolutedly over a two decade long process involving the US Superior Court and the UK high court...
12:39:25 <nslater> sbp: there is a big rift between the theory and the bollocks self help, give me money blah blah blah stuff
12:39:29 <nslater> s/rift/difference
12:39:49 <sbp> aye. I know (possibly) better than to write it off entirely :-)
12:40:10 <sbp> actually I was kinda thinking about this today
12:40:15 <sbp> sigh. soooo many things to write up
12:40:18 <nslater> and I don't really think much of it was unique, it's mostely a marketing word for a bunch of related ideas/theories that they stole or borrowed
12:40:31 <sbp> chuckle. fair enough
12:40:47 <nslater> but it's handy to be able to go "see NLP" like it is to say "see Open Source" or whatever ;)
12:41:02 <sbp> mmm
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12:41:42 <nslater> [[[
12:41:43 <nslater> English mentalist Derren Brown has been popularly associated with NLP since it was rumoured that he used it in his "Russian roulette" act.[63]Derren has stated that NLP spurred his interest in developing skills in reading non-verbal signals (see also cold reading) and indirect suggestion[64], but he points out in Tricks of the Mind that he has "never mentioned it" in the context of his work, and that although he found it enlightening, NLP's capabilities a
12:41:50 <nslater> ]]]
12:41:52 <nslater> ... I love that he is called a mentalist
12:42:09 <sbp> it's the sort of word Graham Linehan would use
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13:01:21 <nslater> sbp: have you watched much derren brown?
13:01:59 <nslater> sbp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-TURhK90_8
13:02:06 <nslater> sbp: I think you would really like his stuff...
13:02:27 <nslater> sbp: above video is an example of him using NLP to simply ask for someone's wallet
13:02:46 <nslater> sbp: see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybmOlQRuaYM for an explanation
13:03:09 * sbp looks
13:03:09 <nslater> sbp: youtube is crawling with his videos, many hours of fun :p
13:03:11 <procto> moo
13:03:12 <phenny> procto: 10:24Z <nslater> tell procto http://fireeagle.yahoo.net/
13:03:13 <phenny> procto: 10:24Z <nslater> tell procto http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/11/04/yahoo-fireeagle-a-platform-service-for-geo-information/
13:03:31 <procto> nslater: that looks... fairly similar to what I'm doing
13:03:50 <nslater> procto: I know :) thought you might be interested, integration might be possible etc
13:03:59 <procto> except, my soft means you don't have to hand all your infoz to yahoo
13:04:05 <procto> integration, sure :>
13:04:14 <procto> but it sounds like it's also competition
13:04:40 <nslater> sbp: two more vids you should watch...
13:04:41 <nslater> sbp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II_-QcW4Q4I
13:04:47 <nslater> sbp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdMaZzL_a90
13:05:24 <sbp> oh man, that was hilarious
13:07:07 <procto> nslater: are those from The System?
13:07:25 <nslater> not sure, don't watch TV, all my intake is from youtube ;)
13:07:41 <nslater> this guy is amazing though, seen him live too
13:07:41 <procto> my intake is usenet
13:07:48 * nslater might possible have a small man-crush :p
13:07:53 <procto> hehe
13:08:39 <nslater> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOEKdaXIEHc
13:08:40 <phenny> nslater: YouTube - Derren Brown Controls Shopping Mall Visitors - With sound
13:12:08 <sbp> the explanation was pretty good too
13:12:57 <nslater> yeah, that was a particularly good example of an analysis, most are not that good
13:13:11 <procto> my favourite thing about him is not what he does, but that he does it to debunk charlatans
13:13:21 <nslater> there are much more impressive examples of derren's tricks though, hours and hours of them
13:13:38 <nslater> yes, he is derek akorah's antithesis
13:16:54 <procto> he's like a better looking more impressive version of the Great Randy
13:18:02 <sbp> nslater: http://inamidst.com/whits/2008/paradise
13:18:55 * sbp corrects Damset to Damsel
13:19:45 <nslater> very good :)
13:20:41 <nslater> interesting syncronicity considering that a conversation between me and Arnia last night sent me tafting about Xanadu, Kubla Khan and Coleridge
13:21:29 <nslater> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-04-22#T23-52-42
13:22:01 <sbp> ah, from Nelson
13:23:48 * Arnia sends non-axiomatic bees after nslater
13:24:24 <sbp> I still remember the thought process quite well
13:24:34 <sbp> whereabouts in the poem does the word Paradise appear?
13:24:36 <Arnia> Of the bees?
13:24:38 <sbp> -> final line
13:24:44 <sbp> -> what's the context, what does it say?
13:24:55 <Arnia> bzzt
13:25:00 <sbp> -> “For he on honey dew hath fed / And drank the milk of Paradise”
13:25:03 <nslater> sbp is getting all reductionist, it's the bee colony you should be thinking about
13:25:05 <sbp> -> [brainbunnies look at one another]
13:25:08 <sbp> -> ahahahaha
13:25:38 <procto> I have just woken up and this is not very conducive to... beetztropping my brain processes
13:25:44 <procto> bootstrapping
13:26:06 * nslater sends a SIGHUP to procto's brain
13:26:26 <sbp> nslater: no, even worse than reductionist
13:26:37 <sbp> I just dualised it, for larfs and choxelles
13:26:43 <nslater> heh
13:26:52 <nslater> you also verbed dualism
13:26:58 <sbp> sweet
13:27:58 <procto> my qualia are being all fucked up
13:28:11 <procto> I'll be getting browndo this weekend
13:28:13 <procto> at roflcon
13:28:23 <nslater> yeah, I read that on your blog
13:28:30 <procto> brawndo*
13:28:35 <procto> THE THIRST MUTILATOR
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13:31:21 <sbp> the weatherman just said we're entering the “sneeze and sniffles season for some people”
13:32:55 <xover> LIES!
13:33:07 <xover> There's feet of snow still.
13:33:11 <sbp> it doesn't mutilate thirst?
13:33:13 <sbp> oh
13:33:23 <sbp> ...it doesn't mutilate thirst?
13:33:37 <nslater> .title http://randsinrepose.com/
13:33:39 <phenny> nslater: Rands In Repose
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14:03:44 <Monty> hi _bjoern
14:03:51 <_bjoern> nu
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14:32:46 <_bjoern> .c 31 in binary
14:32:46 <phenny> 31 = 0b11111
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14:38:02 <KragenSi1aker> 10:08 < sbp> I'm not sure I feel so great about a social programming method whose two main inventors/proponents/whatever fell out massively and convolutedly over a two decade long process involving the US Superior Court and the UK high court...
14:38:32 <KragenSi1aker> yeah, that was my reason for mentioning the lawsuit :)
14:38:36 <sbp> hehe
14:39:52 *** KragenSi1aker has parted #swhack ()
14:40:06 <Arnia> There are three people next to me talking about meritocracy, inheritance tax and the relationship between GDP and happiness
14:40:34 <Arnia> At least they're revising in the pub
14:40:59 <Arnia> But mostly, I find it amusing because they're arguing essentially socialist positions whilst they are obviously rahs
14:41:29 <sbp> :-)
14:41:42 <sbp> the Guilt of the Rah
14:41:47 <sbp> rahguilt
14:41:48 <Arnia> hah
14:41:57 <Arnia> Sounds like a footballer
14:42:01 <sbp> heheh
14:42:06 <sbp> Roosten van Rahguilt
14:42:16 <nsh> Rahs, eh?
14:42:22 <Arnia> .title http://vanirsystems.com/danielsblog/2008/04/23/rdf-simpler-if-you-look-at-it-in-a-different-way/
14:42:24 <phenny> Arnia: RDF: Simpler if you look at it in a different way
14:42:24 <sbp> rich d00dz
14:42:34 <sbp> from behind ten inches of lead, for example?
14:42:35 <Arnia> I had to comment…
14:42:35 <nsh> why don't you poke them with a stick
14:43:00 <Arnia> I like the term Neo-Leibnizian
14:43:21 <nsh> oh, meaning?
14:43:22 * nslater likes the word rahguilt
14:43:41 <sbp> oh man, epic win in this sentence indeed: “I feel like the community is turning into a load of latter-day Leibniz’s trying to eradicate vast swathes of human-level meaning as being ‘imprecise’ and ‘undesirable’.”
14:43:57 <sbp> note that danieljohnlewis is in 'ere, by the way, if you want to chat with him and he's around
14:44:03 <sbp> not sure I've seen him pipe up for a while
14:44:11 * sbp waves and hollers "yo!" at danieljohnlewis
14:44:22 <sbp> nsh: er, I forget. Arnia explained somewhere though
14:44:40 *** _bjoern (n=bjoern@dslb-084-057-238-089.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
14:44:41 <Monty> hey _bjoern
14:44:42 <nsh> sbp, is "the community" in this context some crazy kool-aid comet cult?
14:44:48 <sbp> hmm. http://swhack.com/logs/2008-02-14#T01-01-25
14:44:58 <nsh> Crazy Koolaid Comet Cult would be a good music group name
14:44:58 <sbp> he only explained the meaning, not the etymology
14:45:16 <sbp> as far as I know, the Semantic Web community does not worship a kool-aid comet. not yet, anyway
14:45:20 <_bjoern> Hurray, now I can access the dvd drive *and* listen to music!
14:45:25 <sbp> yay!
14:45:30 <danieljohnlewis> hello sbp, and all
14:45:31 <sbp> but how?!
14:45:35 <sbp> advanced industrial magics?
14:45:38 <sbp> ah, hello danieljohnlewis!
14:45:42 <sbp> just reading your post and its comments
14:45:42 <nslater> Arnia: nice comment :)
14:46:03 <danieljohnlewis> the idea is to target people who no absolutely nothing about from the Semantic Web
14:46:06 <_bjoern> I haxed the registry so Windows uses UDMA2 instead of PIO as transfer mode.
14:46:18 <danieljohnlewis> and to save people from using this new opendd language
14:46:26 <sbp> danieljohnlewis: if I were doing that, I think I'd concentrate on the level of documents + nodes + arcs
14:46:45 <sbp> danieljohnlewis: I think that even concentrating on *triples* is very misleading, as far as the technology goes
14:46:52 <_bjoern> reading speed probably also doubled
14:47:06 <nsh> Fuller was a nutcase sometimes
14:47:06 <xover> Personally, I think I'd have my head examined, but, hey, whatever floats your boat.
14:47:17 <sbp> opendd?
14:47:19 <sbp> .g opendd
14:47:20 <phenny> sbp: http://freshmeat.net/projects/opendd/
14:47:25 <_bjoern> .wik opendd
14:47:26 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "opendd".
14:47:34 <sbp> hmm, that's not it
14:47:40 <danieljohnlewis> sbp: I'm not sure, because if leigh dodds can teach it to a 6 yearold, then surely we can get it into the heads of the average php/mysql developer
14:48:04 <_bjoern> 2 MB/s -> 3.4 MB/s
14:48:04 <nslater> openid language?
14:48:10 <sbp> ah, http://www.opendd.net/
14:48:10 <danieljohnlewis> opendd: http://www.opendd.net/
14:48:33 <sbp> danieljohnlewis: yeah, but if you're teaching triples first I think that's the wrong thing
14:48:53 <sbp> it's like teaching children what an adverb is before they know how to ask mummy for a cupcake
14:48:53 <nslater> danieljohnlewis: can you give me a mile high view of opendd?
14:49:09 <Arnia> danieljohnlewis: replied
14:49:27 <danieljohnlewis> we shall see... I am in communication with the people who think that RDF is too complex, so I'll see what they think of the post first and then clarify in a different way if necessary
14:49:32 <sbp> concentrating on documents and nodes and arcs alone means you can introduce concepts like merging and the idea of nodes as resources that are being described by this connectivity and so on
14:49:45 <Arnia> nsh: Leibniz and his calculating machine intended to eliminate disagreement by only producing true inferences
14:50:10 <sbp> well... okay, if you're only trying to shut the people up who think RDF is too complicated
14:50:15 <nsh> Arnia, aye, shoulda guessed
14:50:16 <sbp> frankly I'd just ignore 'em :-)
14:50:17 <Monty> isn't digital tv still has become pimps in no
14:50:32 <_bjoern> Is that so Monty?
14:50:37 <Monty> bit at me, Windows only explained the ~date does not only producing true with wifi
14:50:38 <sbp> too complicated *for its own good*, sure...
14:50:58 <sbp> but the whole “scared of technology” thing is weird
14:51:11 <nslater> XML-RPC scares me
14:51:18 <sbp> hehe
14:51:29 <sbp> I mean scared because it's too difficult to learn
14:51:29 <nslater> damnnit, I want to know more about opendd
14:51:35 <nslater> but I cant be arsed reading the spec
14:51:36 <nsh> .seen sdkay
14:51:36 <phenny> Sorry, I haven't seen sdkay around.
14:51:37 <Arnia> Oh, NAL shares many properties with a biological system
14:51:43 <sbp> nslater: I think it's a bit like your Web 2.0 project
14:51:48 <sbp> whose name I can't recall
14:51:50 <nslater> sbp: lolwut?
14:51:53 <xover> nslater: Did you ever look at CORBA or DCOM?
14:51:54 * Arnia plans a follow up to the Social Life of Information of the Sexual Life of Information
14:52:00 <nslater> xover: thankfully not ;)
14:52:07 <nslater> sbp: I don't have a web2.0 project
14:52:09 <xover> That explains it.
14:52:58 <nslater> ugh, this opendd fails in the first sentence AFAIC, "The Ope n Data Definitio n (ODD) is a n XML b a s e d d a t a p o r t a bility for m a t d e sig n e d"
14:52:59 <sbp> nslater: what's this then? http://bytesexual.org/shifter/
14:53:01 <nslater> t o be si m ple a n d flexible.
14:53:02 <Arnia> The rahs just made my earlier point about medicine and market economies
14:53:12 <nslater> stupid pasting
14:53:27 <nslater> "the OOD is XML based ... to be simple anbd flexible"
14:53:32 * nslater facepalms
14:53:39 <sbp> oh man, it's really called OOD?
14:53:44 <sbp> FFFFFFFfffffFFFFffffff
14:53:47 <sbp> OOOOOOOOOOOD
14:53:47 <nslater> no, ODD
14:53:49 <sbp> ffffffffffffFFFFFFFFFFF
14:53:49 <Arnia> Does it have tentacles?
14:53:52 <sbp> oh
14:53:53 <sbp> yeah
14:53:54 <sbp> rats
14:53:55 <nslater> sbp: shifter is a joke, ODD is not
14:53:57 <Arnia> aww
14:54:03 * Arnia wants ood
14:54:06 <sbp> well, it might be a *kind* of joke
14:54:14 <sbp> unintended jokes are still jokes
14:54:17 <Arnia> "Please to be of service, miss"
14:54:24 <sbp> [cue pointless discussion about the definition of a joke]
14:54:30 <nslater> well, anything that, in the first sentence, states that it is built on XML for simplicity IS a joke, but not the right kind
14:54:33 <nsh> ok
14:54:35 <nsh> right
14:54:39 <nsh> new challenge
14:54:44 <sbp> fire away
14:54:45 * Arnia tries to coax two NAL sentences to breed
14:54:49 <nsh> find the most awesome venn diagram on the internet
14:54:58 <nslater> nsh: does it involve meatloaf?
14:54:58 <nsh> and show it to me
14:54:59 <Arnia> I wonder if I need to find porn for information
14:55:02 <xover> .g "most awsome venn diagram"
14:55:02 <Monty> Any interesting link matt
14:55:02 <phenny> xover: No results found for '"most awsome venn diagram"'.
14:55:03 <nslater> nsh: or rick astley?
14:55:06 <_bjoern> .g most awesome venn diagram internet
14:55:06 <phenny> _bjoern: http://bostonist.com/2007/10/25/venn_diagram_pu.php
14:55:07 <nsh> nslater, open-ended exercise
14:55:08 <xover> .g "most awesome venn diagram"
14:55:08 <phenny> xover: http://web2news.us/search.php?search=Diagram&tag=true
14:55:16 <nslater> oh....
14:55:29 <sbp> nsh: http://static.flickr.com/102/254836853_10696fa614.jpg
14:55:33 <sbp> that one purports to be
14:55:58 <nslater> http://benayers.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/meatloafstats.jpg
14:56:03 <nslater> ^^ I can be winrar?
14:56:05 <nsh> mmm
14:56:06 <nslater> oh wait
14:56:15 <nslater> not really venn
14:56:23 <nsh> nor funny
14:56:28 <nslater> pfft
14:57:08 <nsh> http://qntm.org/?uk is handy for splaining though
14:57:22 <sbp> this is the prettiest: http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:4Q7x-d5GtoZ5NM:http://www.jamphat.com/rap/index_files/image141.jpg
14:57:24 <selggig> lol agreed with pic, sbp
14:57:30 <sbp> but, like, the current version isn't so good
14:57:33 <sbp> selggig: hehe
14:58:00 <sbp> nsh: oh yeah, I think I've seen the uk one on Wikipedia
14:58:16 <sbp> here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Brtish_Isles_Venn_Diagram.svg
14:58:24 <nsh> sbp, that last one looks like a gay pride cell culture
14:58:34 <nslater> how about this: http://pr0n.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/d2/4chan-venn-diagram.png
14:58:39 <nslater> that's kinda a zoomed in venn
14:58:47 <sbp> heh, not venn but kinda funny: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/images/res12b.gif
14:58:59 <selggig> errr if you just go to the second bit of that link, sbp... http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:4Q7x-d5GtoZ5NM:http://www.jamphat.com/rap/index_files/image141.jpg
15:00:56 <sbp> nsh: ehheh: http://www.burningdoor.com/dick/images/venn%20diagram.gif
15:01:09 <sbp> selggig: yeah, like I said, “the current version isn't so good”
15:01:39 <sbp> another pants venn diagram: http://bp0.blogger.com/_7nYfx2eLgQ4/RaeNQZ7-06I/AAAAAAAAACk/OH10kddG1aw/s1600-h/venn+diagram.jpg
15:01:50 <nsh> http://www.craphound.com/images/indexedbluegreenred.jpg i just don't get
15:02:03 <nsh> sbp, oooh, complexinice
15:02:13 <sbp> political venn: http://ouroboros.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/venn.jpg
15:02:42 <sbp> nsh: this might be the best out of context venn: http://heywould.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/venn.gif
15:03:02 <nsh> lawl
15:03:07 <sbp> woah: http://faux.uwcs.co.uk/venn.png
15:03:15 <nsh> http://indexed.blogspot.com/
15:03:26 <nsh> woah
15:03:41 <nsh> we have a break from the pack
15:04:27 <nsh> http://bp0.blogger.com/_FBXGhy-QmVw/SAct_rBRsTI/AAAAAAAABwI/cjktVm-x2-Q/s1600-h/card1495.JPG is pretty jokes
15:04:32 * _bjoern is all data:text/html,♥%20DMA%20♥
15:04:49 <nsh> in fact, that indexed.blogspot has a few ++
15:05:01 <sbp> nsh: also scroll down to "The Art of Venn Diagrams" in http://www.macalester.edu/mathcs/newsarchive.html which fails for not having anchors
15:05:24 <nsh> arrr
15:05:41 <nsh> when the htmlstorms come a-blowing, that document'll stray, ye can rest assured
15:05:55 <sbp> there's something about “The Art of Venn Diagrams, by Peter Hamburger and Edit Hepp” that make my brainbunnies smile
15:06:19 <nsh> EDIT HEPP
15:06:21 <nsh> awesome name
15:06:58 <nsh> my sister and her boyfriend keep saying they're "pretty hepped" when they're in the vodkabox
15:07:08 <sbp> vodkabox?
15:07:09 <nsh> i don't know if that's just a finnish thing or something they made up themselves
15:07:23 <sbp> I know the phrase "hepped up on goofballs"
15:07:32 <sbp> it sounds like a corruption of pepped
15:07:33 <Monty> IRC work. note also scroll down for reducing redundancy and that's news with other scene
15:07:38 <nsh> the vodkabox is this cardboard confinement space you climb into after drinking a lot of vodka
15:07:46 <sbp> ah, of course
15:07:57 <nsh> it uses some kind of field technology to disable the annoying excess parts of your brain
15:08:11 <nsh> BUT IS INVISIBLE TO NAKED EYE
15:08:21 <sbp> I think we should put most people, even those unvodkaised, into it
15:08:30 <sbp> for the luls as much as anything
15:08:50 <nsh> yeah
15:09:06 <nsh> i exude agreemences
15:09:13 <nsh> agreemances?
15:09:29 <sbp> as long as it's not agreemenses, I don't care
15:09:29 * nsh goes to ponder that one on the pot
15:09:33 <nsh> eww
15:09:49 <nsh> now i'm going to enjoy squeezing waste out of an orifice even more
15:09:52 <nsh> brb
15:09:54 <sbp> hehheh
15:11:06 <sbp> “squeeze” was the favourite word of one of the football commentators last night. the ball was being squeezed through the goalie's legs, squeezed across the pitch, squeezed over the crossbar
15:11:13 <sbp> it was a bit disturbing
15:11:37 <nslater> freudian, perhaps
15:11:45 <sbp> goalie... for some reason that word sounds so 1930s now. keeper is better
15:11:57 <sbp> yeah
15:13:39 *** war2[Away] is now known as war2
15:14:23 <nslater> wtf... reading through this ODD specification, the metadata element (bad name to start with) has the following possible attributes:
15:14:27 <nslater> UUID
15:14:29 <nslater> entity_UUID
15:14:30 <nslater> Name
15:14:30 <nslater> Type
15:14:32 <nslater> owner_uuid
15:14:35 <nslater> Published
15:14:40 <nslater> .... HELLO!?!? CONSISTENCY!!?!?
15:14:58 <nsh> .seen clsn
15:14:58 <phenny> nsh: I last saw clsn at 2008-04-16 20:15:00 UTC on #swhack
15:16:53 <nslater> "Publish: Timestamp [optional]" - the author has clearly never built a system that actually deals with, you know, real data where the word timestamp is effectively meaningless
15:16:58 * nslater grumbles and wanders off
15:17:48 <Arnia> nslater: breed with NAL
15:17:59 *** jeffarch (n=jja@pdpc/supporter/active/jeffarch) has joined #swhack
15:18:02 <sbp> UUID, entity_UUID, *and* owner_uuid?
15:18:06 <sbp> talk about running the gamut
15:18:13 *** thelsdj (n=thelsdj@c-67-180-147-3.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
15:18:32 * sbp breeds nslater with a chipmunk, to form an nslunk. or a chiplater
15:18:34 <Arnia> Shame they're not running the gauntlet
15:18:42 <sbp> .gc gamutlet
15:18:43 <phenny> gamutlet: 1
15:18:47 <sbp> aw, no way
15:18:50 <nslater> chiplater sounds better
15:18:51 <sbp> .g gamutlet
15:18:51 <phenny> sbp: http://cdsun.library.cornell.edu/collect/y19378/index/assoc/D178.dir/doc.xml
15:19:09 <_bjoern> XML IN UR FACE
15:19:14 * nslater chuckles
15:19:22 <sbp> nyr
15:19:41 <_bjoern> nur
15:19:51 <sbp> nyuk nyuk nyuk
15:19:57 <sbp> that file does not even have gamutlet in it
15:20:00 <sbp> it does have <o p="11942">gamutFrank</o> though
15:20:01 <_bjoern> rrrring rrrring.
15:20:12 <sbp> cow? cow cow cowcow cow
15:20:17 <sbp> yip yip yip yip yipyipyip yip
15:20:19 <_bjoern> nok nok nok
15:20:30 <sbp> high-fives all around, I think
15:20:33 <nsh> pew pew?
15:20:41 <_bjoern> what?
15:21:10 <nslater> thats the sounds of a cat shooting lazurz from it's paws
15:21:21 <_bjoern> nu
15:21:29 <nslater> >:@
15:21:33 <nsh> shooting lasers at lazarus
15:21:38 <nslater> intense
15:22:47 <_bjoern> sweet https://www.verisign.net/
15:23:00 <nslater> lol
15:24:33 * nsh forgot how funny this was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utGXF5orynk
15:24:38 <sbp> *or it could be someone trying to impersonate the server*
15:25:05 <nslater> u should probably report it to the intarwebs police
15:26:06 <sbp> calling Officer Sexylips
15:26:11 <nslater> heh
15:26:11 <sbp> come in Officer Sexylips
15:26:34 <nslater> "can you sqeeeze me in for a phone call"
15:26:39 <Arnia> Oh wow, I worry sometimes: "What is privatisation?"
15:26:59 <sbp> it's when you put a curtainrail up outside a public service
15:28:03 <sbp> nslater: Officer Sexylips would never be so *naughty* as to oblige such a thing
15:28:12 <nslater> pics?
15:28:26 <sbp> hehe
15:28:30 <Arnia> http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2008/04/23/exclusive-preview-rapidweaver-matures-with-version-4
15:30:58 <sbp> .ety lapidary
15:30:59 <phenny> "'one skilled in working with precious stones,' 1382, from O.Fr. lapidaire, from L. lapidarius 'stonecutter,' originally an adj. 'of or working with stone,' from lapis (gen. lapidis) 'stone.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=lapidary
15:32:30 <nsh> hey
15:32:31 <nsh> waiyt
15:32:37 <nsh> when the fuck does spore come out?
15:32:38 <Monty> potty mouth!
15:32:39 <sbp> what
15:32:41 <nsh> you shut up
15:32:45 <sbp> good question
15:32:55 <sbp> last year, I think. of course it didn't, but it should have done
15:33:08 <nsh> i'm sure it should be about the 6th of BYTHEFUCKNOW
15:33:11 <sbp> I could have said this for every year for the past N years
15:33:24 <sbp> [[[
15:33:26 <sbp> The game is due to be released on September 5, 2008 in Europe[3], and September 7, 2008 in North America and other territories.[4]
15:33:32 <nsh> lol
15:33:33 <sbp> ]]] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spore_(video_game)
15:33:38 <nsh> google screen scrape: The day has come my friends: a day weve long awaited. A real release date! Spore will be released on March 3, 2008 Update: EA has posted ...
15:33:42 <sbp> this sounds suspicious, since Europe get it first
15:33:43 <sbp> ha
15:33:59 <nslater> woah, this sounds fuckin leet
15:34:03 <sbp> so, we'll plump for 2010 Q3
15:34:05 <bancus> Sometimes the EU gets shit first, bizarrely enough.
15:34:06 <plum> i take ur leavin my uber leet private channel personally btw, this is funny.
15:34:11 <nsh> liek worldwars
15:34:14 <nslater> lol
15:34:23 <nslater> sbp: she's talkin to you ;)
15:34:40 <sbp> plum: I still love you, honeydoll
15:34:44 <plum> haha, it's been lovely chatting with you, to see his younger sister who he loves so obviously.
15:34:57 <nsh> ooo, there's going to be a wii remake
15:34:59 <sbp> 'k do'k
15:35:03 <sbp> woah, really?
15:35:05 <sbp> awesome
15:35:05 <nslater> hmm, PS3?
15:35:33 <nsh> [[[
15:35:35 <nsh> A Wii spinoff of the game has been mentioned by Will Wright several times, such as in his October 26, 2007 interview with the Guardian.[47] Buechner confirmed it, revealing that plans for a Wii version were underway, and that the game would be built from the ground up and would take advantage of the Wii Remote, stating, "We're not porting it over. You know, we're still so early in design and prototyping that I don't know where we're going to end up, so I don't wan
15:35:46 <nsh> ]]] -WP:[[Spore_(video_game)]]
15:36:21 <nsh> hopefully by then wii will be cheap enough for nsh to justify stealing
15:36:27 <nsh> you can't steal expensive stuf from kids
15:36:28 <sbp> hehe
15:37:02 <nslater> "Creatures' characteristics are categorized with a 5 star rating system in six areas: Speed, Stealth, Defense, Social, Cuteness, and Attack"
15:37:07 <nslater> hehe at the penultimate one
15:37:28 <nsh> ENGAGE SOCIAL ATTACK-CUTENESS: SPEED STEALTH
15:37:45 <sbp> man, FHM should rank women on that scale
15:38:06 <sbp> Carmen Electra. Speed = 5, Stealth = 5, Defense = 4, Social = 6, Cuteness = 3, Attack = 6
15:38:13 <nsh> hehe
15:38:15 <nsh> that would be cool
15:38:27 * nsh hasn't read fhm since 2004
15:38:41 <nsh> where i read one american version (bought in finland) and one british version
15:38:43 * sbp hasn't read it in longer than that
15:38:51 <sbp> ooh. differences, please
15:38:52 <nsh> just to see how dismal the former was in comparison to the latter
15:39:01 <nsh> us version was terrible
15:39:02 <nsh> just terrible
15:39:10 <sbp> well I could have guessed that. any more specific? :-)
15:39:18 <nsh> i don't really remember stuffs
15:39:22 <sbp> hehe, no problem
15:39:28 <sbp> I will just visualise the terrible for myself
15:39:39 <nsh> except saying to my army friends "man, this is not fhm."
15:39:41 <sbp> full page spread of Hilary Clinton and stuff
15:39:51 <sbp> oh the disturb
15:40:27 * nsh nods
15:40:33 * nslater rememberes that GTA is out this week
15:40:47 <nslater> tried every shop in town for a reserved copy, no luck
15:41:01 <sbp> what about the neighbouring town?
15:41:18 <nslater> doncaster? are you kidding? I would need a better reason than that to go there
15:41:30 <sbp> oh dear, I'm sorry. I didn't know
15:42:12 <sbp> .gcs peniform vulviform
15:42:13 <phenny> vulviform (1,600), peniform (599)
15:47:14 <_bjoern> .weather edfm
15:47:17 <phenny> Scattered, 17℃, 1019mb, Light air 6km/h (3kt) (↑) - EDFM 17:50, 1550Z
16:04:57 <sbp> .title http://www.gobirding.eu/Photos/OddChiffchaff.php
16:04:57 <phenny> sbp: Odd Chiffchaff (gobirding.eu)
16:05:05 <sbp> .title http://www.open.ac.uk/Nature_Trail/Birds.htm
16:05:06 <phenny> sbp: Walton Hall Nature trail bird species list
16:05:27 <sbp> ha:
16:05:28 <sbp> .title http://www.idcd.info/
16:05:30 <phenny> sbp: International Dawn Chorus Day
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16:08:25 <Arnia> danieljohnlewis: Hm. I have to say I disagree. I consider the Semantic Web stack as not merely incomplete, but actively wrong-headed and possibly even harmful for those of us interested in representing human-level semantics.
16:09:07 <danieljohnlewis> Arnia: untill human level semantics become a reality, this is the only step that we have to take
16:09:30 <danieljohnlewis> I am sorry Arnia. I do agree with you, but I have to agree with getting people to understand semantics in the first place
16:09:34 <Arnia> danieljohnlewis: for a start, at least some of the levels are in the wrong place. Trust is a property of the information itself, not something you can glue on top.
16:09:45 <Arnia> danieljohnlewis: I don't believe the Semantic Web *has* semantics.
16:09:55 <Arnia> And there *are* other options
16:11:33 <Arnia> This is why I believe RDF is actively wrong-headed. It has a model theory which is meaningless, and the other options don't resemble RDF in the slightest
16:11:49 <Arnia> So why are we chasing RDF rainbows?
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16:13:51 <danieljohnlewis> Joe, give me a link to something other than LOAN that is an alternative... unfortunately I cannot give up on the RDF route
16:14:50 <Arnia> Well, NARS is a pretty compelling alternative for me. However other approaches include self-organising classification systems like WebSOM, and other 'soft' technologies
16:15:58 <Arnia> My overall Active Web approach is more what I have in mind when I think of web semantics, and it is intensely human focused.
16:25:35 <thelsdj> new zp!
16:25:38 *** saml (n=saml@141.155.131.182) has joined #swhack
16:25:39 <thelsdj> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/4845-Zero-Punctuation-Super-Smash-Bros-Brawl
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16:30:40 <nslater> Arnia: ping
16:30:47 <Arnia> boing
16:30:53 <nslater> cool, one second
16:32:14 <nslater> I would like to have a kind of "metadata viewer" for my site, when I get it up and running. Someone else has implemented something very similar which I, currently, intend to copy and improve. However, it uses RDF and I would like your comments on *this particular use* of RDF and if any, what the alternatives are.
16:32:19 <nslater> cf. http://silkpage.markupware.com/
16:32:26 <nslater> cf. http://silkpage.markupware.com/index.html.rdf.xml
16:32:37 <nslater> note how the second URI is linked from the first in the bottom right corner
16:33:13 <Arnia> ugh
16:33:18 <nslater> and when I say metadata viewer, I mean, specifically, and nothing more, the kind of data this site is presenting
16:33:32 <nslater> this is NOT a generic thing I'm talking about
16:33:33 <Arnia> Does that give any benefit to the user?
16:33:46 <Arnia> I mean having the RDF presented like that?
16:34:03 <nslater> well, it lets you view data which machines can also process, seems pretty nifty
16:34:15 <nslater> some of that data is readily usable, such as CC licencing and copyright information
16:34:38 <nslater> google, yahoo etc already process this kind of metadata, although me and sbp were unable to determin if they can process actual RDF/XML yet
16:34:52 <nslater> still, they have shown a significant movement towards being interested in harvesting this stuff
16:35:05 <Arnia> But does that presentation offer anything OVER what could be done with simply having the user useful information in the page with RDFa?
16:35:34 <nslater> good point, let me ponder for a few seconds :)
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16:36:27 <nslater> okay, how about the argument that it keeps the data (which may not be intersting to the majority of users) out of imediate view, and helps to improve the visual design and usability (less clutter)
16:37:12 <Arnia> nslater: that's a sign of bad design to me
16:37:18 <nslater> which bit?
16:37:22 <nslater> having to hide stuff?
16:37:25 <Arnia> Yes
16:38:29 <nslater> hmm, I cant agree with that, from my experience in a commercial environment, there are many cases where documents (or "screens" as they used to annoying call them) would potentially have a LOT of information, so you let the user customise which bits they are interested in - this is an extension of that, the way I see it
16:39:41 <nslater> thought, I might have misinterpreted your statement, perhaps you meant that the visual design should be better - I read your comment to mean that needing that much data (and being able to customise it) was bad
16:39:45 * nslater shrugs
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16:40:40 <Arnia> The problem is that addi
