00:07:04 <Arnia> Pet Philosophical Peeves: discuss
00:09:06 <Arnia> For me, the main four are dualism, objectivism, temporal provincialism and confirmation bias (e.g. 'scientific method is a good tool for answering certain questions, therefore any question which can't be answered via scientific method is not worth asking or thinking about at all')
00:09:17 <Arnia> nslater: yours?
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00:10:44 <procto> Arnia: as peeves you mean that you disagree with those things?
00:11:12 <Arnia> Yes. Quite profound disagreement.
00:11:45 <procto> you disagree wthi confirmation bias? or think it's a bad thing?
00:11:46 <Arnia> I might reterm the latter 'ostrichism'
00:12:01 <procto> ah
00:12:18 <procto> care to explicate the third one?
00:12:49 <Arnia> I think that the tendency to dismiss any question which is beyond scientific method's remit is counter-productive and shows lack of intellectual awareness (serendipity, etc.)
00:13:09 <Arnia> The third one is the habit of many (most?) to treat the history of an idea as irrelevant
00:13:53 <Arnia> When I'm teaching I always at least start with a historical perspective as it is how the idea was originally conceived. I feel it shows far more about how the idea grew and helps understand the idea
00:14:06 <procto> Arnia: just to clarify, serendipity is an example of such a question?
00:14:29 <Arnia> No, serendipity is a reason why it is a good idea to ask questions you can't answer with the tools you have
00:14:53 <Arnia> The thinking about the 'impossible' question often (in my experience at least) offers greater insight into the related possible ones
00:14:57 <procto> con you give me an example of such a question?
00:15:22 <procto> the only ones that come to mind for me are theological
00:15:24 <Arnia> Any general 'why' question is outside scientific method
00:15:56 <Arnia> By this I mean a 'why' which can't be reformed as a 'how' or a 'what'
00:16:12 <procto> I am approaching understanding
00:16:16 <Arnia> Lots of them are theological, but many are just broadly philosophical
00:17:43 <procto> so, those questions that people calling themselves philosophers tend to handle, and "science people" often disdain
00:17:51 <procto> is that what you're refering to?
00:17:58 <Arnia> Serendipity helps because the chance flowing together of thoughts which thinking about 'impossible' questions leads to, causes deeper changes in understanding of even the most trivial questions
00:17:59 <Arnia> Yes
00:18:13 <procto> in that case I agree
00:18:14 <Arnia> I explicitly count my subject as natural philosophy
00:18:33 <procto> i took a year off my undergrad studies
00:18:35 <Arnia> Not computer science, cognition, maths, linguistics or anything else in which I dabble.
00:18:57 <_bjoern> .gc swhack porn
00:18:58 <phenny> swhack porn: 1,430
00:18:58 <procto> ond the first thing I did, even before looking for work, is pick up and intensely study material on philosophy and economics
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00:19:21 <procto> two subjects that I found were very foreign to the "science" world I've been raised in
00:19:56 <Arnia> Yes. I'm fortunate in that I've been raised by a family of polymaths so I've always been exposed to different perspectives
00:20:23 <Arnia> I find it difficult, in fact, to understand people who can't consider a problem from more than one perspective at once :/
00:20:26 <procto> my parents are as close to that as you can get when you're raised in the soviet union
00:20:37 <procto> but my father's a soviet physicist
00:20:47 <procto> and that leaves you fairly rigid intellectually
00:22:06 <procto> but I freed myself :>
00:22:20 <Arnia> Not that it is necessarily bad to be rigid and sharp and deep... but I think there is a need for a mix of approaches. What I'm really complaining about are those people (who I must confess, and this is bad, I think of as being dangerous pseuds) who dismiss all other ways of looking at the world entirely
00:22:21 <procto> I very much agree with your multiple points of view outlook
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00:22:31 <Monty> hey BigJibby_lap
00:22:49 <procto> it is what I try to inculcate in myself
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00:23:55 <Arnia> What worries me is that current popsci tends to encourage such a monoculture of approach
00:24:02 <procto> yes
00:24:03 <procto> very muchly
00:24:09 <Arnia> "Woo Scientific Method! Nothing Else Counts!"
00:24:12 <procto> i've been fighting that whenever I can
00:25:16 <Arnia> Sorry, scientific method is immensely clever and powerful but it still is just one tool in the philosopher's arsenal and I feel that any intellectual must be a philosopher of some stripe, even if a very narrowly focussed one
00:25:50 <procto> my cat's giving me a weird look
00:25:56 <procto> oh, he wants belly rubz
00:26:40 <Arnia> I was having a conversation with someone the other day where we were both trying to pin down why we dislike Dawkins so much. One atheist, one rather strangely philosophied gnostic catholic trying to capture all the gut emotion and instinctual intellectualism which goes into such a judgement.
00:27:33 <procto> (why is russel brand famous?)
00:27:48 <procto> Arnia: that's the reaction I've had to him as well
00:28:10 <Arnia> We agreed on most of our reasons actually, and they can be summed up quite neatly in those four pet peeves of mine (with a few added for seasoning). Not surprising he makes me want to scream when he irritates all my dislikes in modern intellectualism.
00:28:42 <procto> Arnia: I have a red A on my blog, but his rhetoric makes me mildly nauseousC[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C
00:29:11 <Arnia> It is penny-dreadful rabble rousing
00:29:18 <procto> yes
00:29:31 <procto> thing is, he acknowledges that
00:29:31 <Arnia> But so many people seem to worship him
00:29:40 <procto> it's "for the cause"
00:30:06 <Arnia> Oh, the cause of dragging us into the dark ages again with blind devotion to a single mode of philosophy?
00:30:14 <Arnia> Yeah, that's great that one :p
00:31:29 <procto> I tend te agree with his criticisms of Gould though
00:31:42 <procto> another one of these overrated oft-worshipped figures
00:32:10 <Arnia> Hm. Not sure about that one.
00:34:00 <procto> as far as dawkins goes, southpark put it rather aptly, imo
00:35:32 <Arnia> Anyway, I feel that Dawkins does the exact opposite of promoting public understanding of science because he doesn't portray its genuine weaknesses, its inapplicabilities and its space of appropriateness. One of my aims in life is to bring to the public consciousness something more balanced than the kneejerk reactions of fundamentalists in a bind :p
00:35:42 <Arnia> (sorry, grouchy, bad day and really tired)
00:36:34 <procto> see, when i'm in the science quad of my university I have to fight the blind belief in Science
00:36:39 <procto> but everywhere else
00:36:56 <procto> I have to champion Science as a potential point of view
00:37:02 <procto> maybe your surroundings are different
00:37:17 <procto> but even in the intellectually rich waters of eastern massachusetts
00:37:39 <procto> people fear and disdain curiousity about the natural world, and even more, a structured approach to its study
00:38:00 <procto> and dawkins approach and ideas are flawed
00:38:21 <procto> but I believe it is better than the currently extant alternative
00:38:30 <procto> but it varies from place to place
00:38:54 <procto> which is where that multiple points of view enters into it
00:39:21 <procto> I'm not talking about religion necessarily. I know many atheist/agnostic people who are fervently anti-scientific
00:41:42 <Arnia> I don't see that you have to choose any one system
00:41:49 <procto> certainly not
00:41:59 <procto> I just want to introduce this new system
00:42:12 <procto> but people do tend to believe in The One Ideology
00:42:30 <procto> and confirmation bias means they will try to stick to theirs
00:42:38 <Arnia> I believe in a God (although qualifying exactly what my theology is to someone else would take years of discussion) but I use scientific method as one of my tools.
00:42:48 <Arnia> I just don't pin myself to any single tool
00:43:00 <Arnia> Then again, I view science as an art.
00:43:33 <procto> as far as natural phenomena, the scientific method is the most useful one I know
00:43:38 <Arnia> It is only recently I think that science has lost its connection to its artistic side, tending to attract people who are almost vehemently anti-art
00:43:45 <procto> but it's certaily an art
00:44:14 <Arnia> Like all arts it requires subtlety in its application
00:44:33 <kpreid> Arnia: I am currently thinking about whether if I said "...how can science *not* be an art?" I would be honestly saying it
00:45:52 <Arnia> Durham is quite good for this sort of thing incidentally... not as good as it used to be (with the increase in size and the transformation of the bachelors into something which is almost purely a job certificate) but still there is a good interplay between the disciplines
00:46:08 <Arnia> It's one of the reasons I love being here
00:46:20 <Arnia> kpreid: how do you mean?
00:46:25 <Arnia> loggy, pointer
00:46:25 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-04-30#T00-46-25
00:47:28 <Arnia> (sorry, want to record this conversation so that I might refer to it in a couple of the essays I've got planned as well as my aim of producing a living reference to my philosophical biases)
00:47:46 <kpreid> Arnia: Genuine inability-to-imagine-otherwise, or the much weaker yup-that-sounds-right-at-the-moment
00:49:05 <Arnia> Well, I feel the current heavy weight placed on mechanical deductive research is a historical accident rather than an integral part of inevitable progress.
00:49:15 <Arnia> Another point where Dawkins and I differ.
00:49:17 <procto> Arnia: to summarize, I am more worried about people utterly uninterested in the intricacies of the world than I am about people overestimating the capabilities of the scientific method. A problem though that is
00:49:42 <Arnia> procto: I'm worried about both equally. I think they're both as dangerous as each other.
00:50:09 <procto> than that would be our point of disagreement there :)
00:50:12 <procto> then*
00:50:26 <Arnia> Not dangerous in the same way, but still dangerous.
00:52:55 <Arnia> And I feel that over-application of the scientific method (or over-feteing of it) will lead to a loss of imagination and interest which will stunt our ability to grow in understanding of the world.
00:53:17 <Arnia> That plays with my dislike of self-segregation though, as well.
00:53:36 <Arnia> Hm. Anyway, I should probably sleep at some point tonight. Thank you for this discussion.
00:53:59 <procto> and vice versa
00:54:08 <procto> do you like the Mighty Boosh?
00:54:26 <Arnia> Yes. I like surrealist humour (unsurprisingly)
00:54:40 <Arnia> Surrealist and absurdist
00:54:51 <procto> Mei aussi
00:54:54 <procto> moi
00:54:57 <kpreid> procto: you made me think of this: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/beauty-settled.html
00:55:23 <procto> I rather like overcoming bias
00:55:35 <procto> sometimes I want to stab eliezer, though
00:55:41 <kpreid> well, do you like it or do you ...never mind then
00:56:11 <procto> he really likes to belabor his points
00:56:54 <kpreid> yeah, well, I don't read OB for the *other* posts :-)
00:56:56 <procto> kpreid: i tend to agree with material on that blog most of the time
00:57:06 <procto> by whatever author
00:57:22 <procto> I've read some of yudkowsky's essays before finding the blog
00:57:45 <kpreid> I find it interesting to try to integrate Yudkowsky and Arnia's respective opinions on the nature of reality and knowledge :)
00:57:46 <procto> especially during my thankfully short singularitarian period
00:57:56 <procto> kpreid: yes, me, too :>
00:58:08 <Arnia> kpreid: good grief, you must like headaches ;)
00:58:22 <procto> Arnia: those headaches are rather painful
00:58:36 <procto> a bit like reading Pynchon
00:58:41 <procto> it hurts, but it's rewarding
00:58:49 <procto> like physical exercise
00:58:51 <kpreid> Arnia: I think the actual distance is less than you think
00:59:00 <Arnia> Any good examples? (you must understand, that it will naturally look different to me as a process)
00:59:20 <Arnia> Any good examples of a headache inducing tension, or of less distance
00:59:27 <Arnia> ... I mean
01:00:35 <kpreid> Arnia: Sorry, I don't seem to have an index for that classification
01:01:14 <Arnia> Suspected not :)
01:01:25 <procto> Arnia: next time i see something that clashes strongly I'll link you
01:01:42 <Arnia> That would be an interesting index though; indexing tensions between academic views
01:02:08 * procto has to write a question answering system by friday
01:02:10 <Arnia> Wonderful for understanding the balance of positions
01:02:16 * procto gets back to it
01:02:53 <kpreid> procto: when you say short singularitarian period: do you mean that you no longer think it is possible, or that it *will* happen, or that you Ought To Tell Everyone?
01:03:06 <kpreid> Or that the term is non-useful?
01:03:41 <procto> kpreid: I mean that I'm no longer "must prepare for our robot overlords who are coming in 2053"
01:03:45 <procto> lasted maybe 2 months
01:03:51 <kpreid> Ah
01:04:26 <procto> have you read/heard yudkowsky's 3 singularities taxonomy/
01:04:27 <procto> ?
01:04:36 <kpreid> I'm not an enthusiast, exactly, but I have failed to find a justification for a singularity being *impossible*
01:04:43 <kpreid> URL?
01:04:52 <kpreid> Er, that didn't come out right
01:05:20 <procto> kpreid: http://itc.conversationsnetwork.org/shows/detail3386.html
01:05:22 <kpreid> ...justification for *believing* that there cannot be a singularity ...
01:05:40 <kpreid> That's longwinded, there ought to be a shorter word
01:05:47 <Arnia> "There is no falsifiability in the philosophy of science, and yet you seem to fully embrace a very specific and contestable doctrine within the philosophy of science and epistemology, namely, Popperian falsificationism. What experimental evidence do you think would falsify falsificationism? Could a physicist falsify this theory by playing around with cloud chambers or particle accelerators?"
01:06:01 <Arnia> — http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/consolidated_na.html#comment-66794494
01:06:12 <procto> kpreid: as a shortcut to sorta understand my views, one can very carefully call me an extropian
01:06:25 <Arnia> Now there is a mind-bending thought. Can just imagine the funding proposal.
01:07:22 <kpreid> I think that's more a job for a mathematician than a physicist...
01:08:36 <procto> Arnia: I finally found a BIG pet peeve of *mine*
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01:08:52 <procto> Arnia: it the same thread
01:08:56 <Arnia> Oh?
01:09:00 <procto> "It is striking to me that people who want to think more carefully about moral issues seem to feel little inclination to read the academic literature on this subject. There are in fact specialists who consider these issues; why reinvent the wheel?" --Robin Hanson
01:09:32 <procto> whenever things come to morality, politics, ethics, economics, language, and other "soft" things
01:10:08 <procto> everyone becomes an expert. no, the experts don't provide tablets from heaven, but at least be familiar with prior thinking
01:10:35 <Arnia> I'd consider that to be a form of temporal provincialism
01:10:36 <procto> or begin discussing from a point of acknowledged ignorance
01:10:57 <procto> yes, I guess that fits into your description of the term
01:11:00 <kpreid> procto: what I spoke of not being impossible is specifically the 'technological advance -> superhuman minds -> unprecedented abilities to affect / nearly-rewrite the world (at least as humans-now care about it)' scenario
01:11:47 <procto> kpreid: i believe that is a plausible scenario, though I am currently net equipped to discuss its liklihood with *any* level of authority
01:12:15 <kpreid> me either. I just have not yet falsified it :-)
01:12:15 <procto> not*
01:12:30 <Arnia> I'm tempted to raise my hands and point out that proving a negative is extremely difficult, especially within an inherently constructivist framework such as scientific method aspires to be (yeah, I'm eliding all the differences between scientific methods here, but I'm quite tired ;)
01:12:51 <kpreid> "Are you net equipped?" -- tagline from some silly advertising campaign, perhaps?
01:12:55 <Arnia> Interesting relation with the non-first-order representability of 'most'
01:13:23 <procto> that's another good point btw, there is more than one scientific method
01:14:21 * Arnia looks at the biologists who seem to invent a new protocol each and every day
01:15:14 <procto> hehe
01:15:42 <procto> i tend to like yudkowsky's bayesian approach
01:15:52 <procto> though anything with bayes in it can be very dangerous
01:16:04 <procto> that danger can be expressed in one word: priors
01:16:08 <Arnia> Bayesianism is better than logical positivism, but it is still lacking
01:16:41 <Arnia> Mainly because it is a subjectivist semantics, which still presumes total knowledge is possible.
01:16:57 * Arnia bangs the evidential semantics gong a few more times
01:17:37 * procto doesn't know enough about evidential semantics te comment
01:17:40 <procto> but summer is coming
01:17:45 <procto> it's when I learn the most
01:17:50 <procto> i learn most when I'm out of academia
01:18:26 <Arnia> Simple summary; evidential semantics is based on AIKIR — Assumption of Insufficient Knowledge and Insufficient Resources
01:18:34 <procto> in school, I'm too busy with assignments to indulge with true education, plumbing the depths of my profs' minds
01:18:39 <plum> if i assign a humanreadable there is a big chance of collision, but its in the same category of value assignment. haha
01:18:53 <Arnia> plum, you worry me
01:18:55 <plum> its not my wife im worried mate, you probably should be worried lol.
01:19:08 <Arnia> Ok... but I'm not married :p
01:19:44 * Arnia is working on extending evidential semantics to a full theory of knowledge
01:19:56 <Arnia> A theory theory is always fun to theorise about :p
01:21:41 <Arnia> At least if you're as warped as I am.
01:21:49 <procto> is it bad that i am impatient to get out of university so I can actually learn?
01:22:07 <Arnia> uh, yes
01:22:11 <procto> I don't think it's a fault of my current uni, I'm pretty sure I'd feel the same about most others
01:22:35 <Arnia> You should come and take my BPhil once I set it up
01:23:10 <procto> bphil is bachelor's of philosophy?
01:23:57 <procto> I think when I'm done with these degrees I'm going to stick with graduate degrees, if any
01:24:24 <Arnia> Bachelors by Research
01:24:24 <Monty> too good or that shizzle :)
01:24:29 <Arnia> Part of my grand plan :p
01:25:23 <procto> WHAT?!?! they made a sequel to The Net
01:25:40 <procto> why?! why!?
01:26:04 <procto> even straight to video...
01:26:29 <procto> Arnia: next semester I have several Independent Study "courses", so hopefully I'll be learning more
01:27:18 * Arnia doesn't get how teaching at university level can be done in blocks as short as a term
01:27:30 <Arnia> it puzzles me
01:27:54 <procto> not very well
01:28:01 <procto> the classe where I actually learn stuff
01:28:09 <procto> the profs can talk at amazing speeds
01:28:18 <procto> and the readings are hundreds of pages a week
01:28:38 <procto> it's hard, but it sticks
01:29:32 <Arnia> I've never learnt well in lectures
01:29:53 <procto> it varies wildly based on the lecturer, for me
01:29:59 <Arnia> When I was an undergrad I rarely went to them, and spent my time reading books from the library and papers from people's websites
01:30:16 <procto> my philosophy prof was very engaging
01:30:32 <procto> classes did include a lot of discussion
01:30:41 <Arnia> In the fifty minutes of a lecture I could read the entire module's lectures and a bit of a book and take it all in :p
01:30:45 <procto> mostly me against a dualist....
01:30:51 <procto> though I tried to tone myself down
01:31:16 <procto> I wish I had the time to take more courses with him
01:31:27 <procto> I will definitely audit them when I graduate
01:31:27 <Arnia> Unsurprisingly I didn't used to do the module requirement work until about now... the three weeks of revision before exams
01:31:39 <Arnia> Possibly less than that...
01:32:13 <Arnia> Anyway, remember a materialist is a dualist who lives in their head and an idealist is a dualist who lives in the physical world
01:32:33 <procto> heh
01:32:42 <Arnia> And I'm sure that made very little sense to anyone but me. I'll think about how to rephrase it when I'm awake
01:32:47 <procto> I was also the resident computationalist
01:33:07 <procto> my final paper was arguing against Searle's chinese room
01:33:23 <Arnia> yay
01:33:27 <procto> I rather like some of searle's other stuff, but I strongly disagree with his anti-strong-ai views
01:33:38 * Arnia locks Searle in a chinese room with a load of blue jumpsuited friends
01:34:11 * Arnia locks locke in there as well, for purely homophonous reasons
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01:40:10 <procto> I have just agreed on a Bacon pot luck for next semester
01:40:15 <procto> everything will be bacon
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01:41:40 <procto> ok, I really should get back to work now. Damn you all for being so interesting
01:42:32 <Arnia> Hm. I've just thought of another term to describe my position. I'm an endorelativist. That is, someone who believes there is an external reality but who also believes that the semantics of any given language must be defined in terms of the language itself (a logic is its own metalanguage)
01:43:07 *** is (n=c@c-98-216-15-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
01:43:19 <Arnia> Wonderful case of the shear between infinitary and finitary models actually...
01:43:34 * Arnia looks meaningfully at Gödel
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01:43:52 <Arnia> Right. BED
01:44:01 <is> g'mornin
01:44:04 * Arnia will actually fall asleep on the floor at this rate
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01:44:34 <Arnia> phenny, tell sbp 'see here'
01:44:35 <phenny> Arnia: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
01:44:58 <Arnia> A Swhack Log Treasure Hunt
01:45:13 <kpreid> Yargh
01:45:22 <kpreid> That'll teach me to have less unsaved state...
01:45:32 <Arnia> hm?
01:45:41 <kpreid> Total GUI wedge-up
01:46:34 <Arnia> whee
01:46:46 * Arnia wedges plum and Monty together between two widgets
01:46:46 <Monty> re:bound
01:46:48 <plum> tell monty twe. why did monty talk?
01:46:56 <Monty> plus time say short singularitarian period: do people to, since I covert into html4, like a proper security test on linux (even with no way around and prometheus
01:46:57 * kpreid wishes Apple's OpenGL implementation was more robust
01:47:42 <kpreid> rather, I wish it exhibited defensive consistency
01:48:28 <procto> Arnia: have you every used a voice bredige? or phone bbs?
01:48:32 <procto> ever*
01:48:38 <Arnia> no
01:48:50 <procto> I was thinking that I might like one for swhack
01:49:06 <Arnia> Oh God... I'd end up talking on swhack whereever I went
01:49:10 <procto> so I could wolk out of my house now and cotinue the conversation
01:49:14 <procto> yes, exactly
01:49:27 <Arnia> I'd even get a headset to allow me to do it
01:49:34 <procto> yes
01:49:36 <Arnia> Get some funny looks though
01:49:41 <procto> I already have one
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01:49:48 <procto> and my nokia n800 has skype on it
01:50:04 <Arnia> But I have considered using spatial discrimination to represent multiple information channels in an auditory space
01:50:11 <kpreid> I'm surprised by the number of people I see out on the street with cell headsets
01:50:18 <kpreid> bluetooth, even
01:50:21 <procto> Arnia: me, too!
01:50:37 <Arnia> Actually, it is something I intend to construct
01:50:42 <procto> kpreid: I'm not sruprised. there are MANY here. it's totally socially acceptable
01:51:02 <procto> Arnia: i have a bluetooth headset that's stereo, and can pair to multiple devices
01:51:34 <procto> so I can listen to mp3s on my player, but when the call comes in gets switched
01:51:38 <kpreid> Arnia: I've heard people say that SL-voice is good at that
01:51:51 <procto> kpreid: SL voice?
01:52:32 <procto> second life?
01:53:13 *** Timrit (n=scott@97-86-122-94.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com) has joined #swhack
01:54:09 <Timrit> good day. i am trying to run the irc bot
01:54:56 <Arnia> Which one? There are so many to choose from here
01:55:00 <Arnia> Monty, say hi
01:55:01 <Timrit> good day. i am trying to run the irc bot phenny and it keeps leaving the channel but shows running in the cli. are there any logs that may show why it is leaving or are there any known reason why
01:55:03 <Monty> I reckon colours + porn = criticised Charles Martinet!
01:55:11 <Arnia> plum, hit on Timrit
01:55:16 <plum> Timrit, moar ppl to cyber with? she has her breasts out. does that turn you on?
01:55:23 <Arnia> loggy, pointer
01:55:23 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-04-30#T01-55-23
01:55:26 <Arnia> etc
01:55:42 * Arnia drags himself away and waves good night
01:58:00 <kpreid> bye!
01:58:27 <Timrit> i have had it running from my work computer for weeks but when i try to run it from home it drops from the channel after about 3 minutes. i have tried it on two different computers on my network with the same results.
01:58:57 <kpreid> Timrit: well, what do other users in the channel see?
01:59:09 <Timrit> they see it leave as well.
01:59:16 <kpreid> er.
01:59:25 <kpreid> is it a part or a quit, and what is the message?
01:59:39 <Timrit> it becomes unresponsive after a minute or so.
01:59:42 <Timrit> ummm hang on
02:01:05 <Timrit> AP-Bot [n=AP-Bot@unregistered.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
02:01:59 <Timrit> yet on the cli window it reads: Connecting to irc.freenode.net:6667... connected!
02:02:14 <Timrit> it never shows disconnected.
02:02:15 <Monty> sward++
02:02:23 <Timrit> it never comes back either.
02:03:10 <Timrit> i ssh'd into my work box and copied the default.py here and it made no difference.
02:04:40 <kpreid> Timrit: sounds like you have NAT
02:04:56 <kpreid> that is, you have NAT with a short timeout
02:05:07 <Timrit> yes. is there a port i would need to open to let it stay connected?
02:05:22 <kpreid> no, it's not an incoming-port problem
02:05:30 <kpreid> it's that the nat forgets about the *connection*
02:05:51 <Timrit> is there a fix?
02:05:54 <kpreid> what you need to do is ensure there is incoming *or* outgoing traffic on the connection more often than 3 minutes
02:06:23 <kpreid> add a module that sends a irc PING command every two minutes, say.
02:07:17 <Timrit> is this common? there is a nat router at work and it doesnt happen there. maybe the router here it too old.
02:07:36 <Timrit> dunno. talking out my behind now.
02:07:52 <kpreid> maybe the one at work has a longer timeout.
02:08:02 <Timrit> oh ok.
02:08:15 <Timrit> will have to do some investigation. thank you very much.
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07:20:04 <sbp> yo
07:20:04 <phenny> sbp: 29 Apr 23:27Z <_bjoern> tell sbp <Monty> Make me drink tits
07:20:05 <phenny> sbp: 02:19Z <Arnia> tell sbp 'see here'
07:20:06 <Monty> Morbus: I'll let us are flawed
07:20:25 <sbp> bwahaha
07:21:10 <Mike_L> Monty: who's Morbus?
07:21:15 <Monty> fibre-glass doubtful pawnbrokers twists wriggling Pacific Miss Piggy, apparently.
07:21:36 <Mike_L> Monty: you end your sentences with ', apparently.' a lot
07:21:37 <Monty> unicode porn
07:21:43 <Mike_L> heh
07:25:21 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7371660.stm
07:25:23 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | Technology | Web in infancy, says Berners-Lee
07:29:29 <sbp> [[[
07:29:30 <sbp> Having dropped off his girlfriend at her house in Rio de Janeiro on Monday night, the 2002 World Cup winner picked up three prostitutes.
07:29:30 <sbp> When they all booked into a motel, the AC Milan striker discovered that the prostitutes were in fact men.
07:29:30 <sbp> According to Rio police, he alleges that the transvestites then tried to extort money from him.
07:29:30 <sbp> Local press reports quoted one of the prostitutes, Andreia Albertine - otherwise known as Andre Luiz Ribeiro Albertino - as saying that Ronaldo had threatened to hit him, on discovering that he was a transvestite.
07:29:35 <sbp> ]]] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7374317.stm
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07:37:21 <xover> .weather Tromsø
07:37:23 <phenny> Clear ☼, 6℃, 1018mb, Light air 1m/s (2kt) (↑) - ENTC 9:50, 0750Z
07:37:39 <sbp> fridgariffic!
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08:25:27 <xover> .weather Tromsø
08:25:29 <phenny> Clear ☼, 8℃, 1019mb, Light air 1m/s (2kt) (↻) - ENTC 10:50, 0850Z
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08:58:30 <xover> .weather Tromsø
08:58:32 <phenny> Clear ☼, 9℃, 1019mb, Light air 1m/s (2kt) (↻) - ENTC 11:20, 0920Z
09:04:54 *** chimezie (n=chimezie@adsl-99-165-247-196.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) has joined #swhack
09:04:54 <Monty> But what does chimezie have to do with the price of fish?
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09:31:47 <Monty> hi is, how ya doing?
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09:40:40 <nslater> Monty: you scared is away
09:40:40 <Monty> aha
09:41:10 <nsh> guess we have to talk in E-Prime now
09:42:06 <_bjoern> .gc noes porn
09:42:08 <phenny> noes porn: 356,000
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09:55:09 <LOLdemort> .gc nascent noes porn
09:55:10 <phenny> nascent noes porn: 417
09:55:12 * LOLdemort grins
09:58:48 <_bjoern> .gc trivially nascent noes porn
09:58:49 <phenny> trivially nascent noes porn: 108
09:59:08 <LOLdemort> you br0rked the pattern
10:00:30 <_bjoern> words starting with n?
10:00:36 <LOLdemort> yus
10:00:43 <_bjoern> lame pattern but okay...
10:00:49 <_bjoern> .gc neutral nascent noes porn
10:00:50 <phenny> neutral nascent noes porn: 448
10:00:54 <LOLdemort> better than words starting with n or t
10:01:04 <LOLdemort> .gc neutral nascent noah noes porn
10:01:05 <phenny> neutral nascent noah noes porn: 151
10:01:17 <_bjoern> .gc needlessly neutral nascent noah noes porn
10:01:18 <phenny> needlessly neutral nascent noah noes porn: 83
10:01:31 <LOLdemort> .gc needlessly neutral natural nascent noah noes porn
10:01:32 <phenny> needlessly neutral natural nascent noah noes porn: 83
10:01:36 <LOLdemort> ..
10:01:44 <_bjoern> .gc neverending needlessly neutral nascent noah noes porn
10:01:45 <phenny> neverending needlessly neutral nascent noah noes porn: 27
10:02:32 <nslater> you missed my word
10:02:35 <nslater> natural
10:02:47 <LOLdemort> ... oops, i mean my word
10:03:24 <_bjoern> noes!
10:03:41 <_bjoern> .gc neverending needlessly neutral natural nascent noah noes porn
10:03:41 <phenny> neverending needlessly neutral natural nascent noah noes porn: 27
10:03:54 <LOLdemort> .gc neverending needlessly neutral noby natural nascent noah noes porn
10:03:54 <phenny> neverending needlessly neutral noby natural nascent noah noes porn: 26
10:04:09 <_bjoern> .gc necrophilic neverending needlessly neutral noby natural nascent noah noes porn
10:04:09 <phenny> necrophilic neverending needlessly neutral noby natural nascent noah noes porn: 22
10:04:22 <LOLdemort> .gc necrophilic neverending needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn
10:04:23 <phenny> necrophilic neverending needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn: 22
10:04:37 <_bjoern> .gc necrophilic neverending needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn nectarine
10:04:38 <phenny> necrophilic neverending needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn nectarine: 20
10:04:51 <LOLdemort> .gc necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn nectarine
10:04:52 <phenny> necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn nectarine: 20
10:04:56 <LOLdemort> ...
10:05:16 <_bjoern> it's funny
10:05:30 <_bjoern> we have ne, no, na, ni, but not nu words.
10:05:54 <_bjoern> .gc necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn nectarine noodles
10:05:55 <phenny> necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn nectarine noodles: 20
10:06:23 <LOLdemort> .gc necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn nectarine nuisance noodles
10:06:24 <phenny> necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn nectarine nuisance noodles: 20
10:06:29 <LOLdemort> NU
10:07:09 * LOLdemort throws some noodle porn at plum
10:07:11 <plum> haha, is this without porn this time? orwell died at 47?
10:07:12 <_bjoern> .gc necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn nectarine nuisance noodles niveau
10:07:12 <phenny> necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes porn nectarine nuisance noodles niveau: 2
10:07:28 <LOLdemort> .gc necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes nubile porn nectarine nuisance noodles niveau
10:07:28 <phenny> necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes nubile porn nectarine nuisance noodles niveau: 2
10:08:24 <_bjoern> .gc necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes nubile nano porn nectarine nuisance noodles niveau
10:08:25 <phenny> necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes nubile nano porn nectarine nuisance noodles niveau: 0
10:08:31 <LOLdemort> FAIL
10:08:47 <LOLdemort> bah, and my next word was going to be nullstellensatz
10:08:59 <_bjoern> Oh yeah Mr Always-the-same-gc, lecture me on failure!
10:09:09 <LOLdemort> .gc necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes nubile porn nectarine nuisance noodles niveau nullstellensatz
10:09:10 <phenny> necrophilic neverending nocturnal needlessly neutral noby natural nascent nitpicking noah noes nubile porn nectarine nuisance noodles niveau nullstellensatz: 2
10:09:13 <LOLdemort> hehe
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10:52:36 <Morbus> .c 32910/1101360*100
10:52:37 <phenny> (32 910 / 1 101 360) * 100 = 2.98812377
10:52:41 <Morbus> OH YEAH.
10:52:53 <Morbus> phenny, tell sbp I"M IN 2.9% IN THE STATES. WOOOOo.
10:52:54 <phenny> Morbus: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
10:53:03 <Morbus> .c 63725/2003851*100
10:53:03 <phenny> (63 725 / 2 003 851) * 100 = 3.18012667
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11:41:26 <_bjoern> .gc forbig
11:41:27 <phenny> forbig: 12,900
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12:08:25 <_bjoern> countdown
12:08:26 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 75, 9, 1, 2, 6, 7. Your target is 253. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
12:08:55 <_bjoern> Well thats rather tricky Monty
12:08:56 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
12:08:57 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 0 milliseconds. I found all 37 solutions in about 63 milliseconds.
12:08:59 <Monty> ibot (6 - 2)*9*7 + 1
12:09:00 <Monty> Dear Sir or am currently 2008, spb)
12:09:14 <_bjoern> Yes, I can confirm that Monty.
12:09:16 <Monty> Mozart is cold and Pacific, apparently.
12:10:18 <sbp> yo
12:10:18 <phenny> sbp: 11:28Z <Morbus> tell sbp I"M IN 2.9% IN THE STATES. WOOOOo.
12:10:22 <sbp> congratz
12:10:25 <Morbus> YAYAYAYAY
12:11:49 <nsh> what means this talk?
12:12:49 <_bjoern> You mean what it is meaning?
12:13:34 <Morbus> countdown is very much like krypto.
12:13:44 <Morbus> we played that in school. i loved it.
12:13:46 <Morbus> countdown
12:13:47 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 100, 1, 1, 7, 6, 7. Your target is 574. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
12:14:16 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
12:14:18 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 16 milliseconds. I found all 4 solutions in about 47 milliseconds.
12:14:19 <Monty> ibot (100 - 1 - 1)*6 - 7 - 7
12:22:31 <sbp> Morbus: it's from a very long running British TV series called Countdown
12:22:37 <sbp> they have this as one of the puzzles on the show
12:22:45 <sbp> they alternate between this puzzle, basically, and word puzzles
12:22:56 <sbp> where you have to derive words from random sequences of letters
12:22:57 <Morbus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krypto_%28game%29
12:22:59 <sbp> longest word winning
12:25:50 <sbp> man, Wikipedia has another winning sentence
12:25:52 <sbp> “During the Victorian era, it became the fashion to describe Sappho as the headmistress of a girls' finishing school.”
12:32:08 <_bjoern> .gc secuentially
12:32:08 <phenny> secuentially: 462
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12:40:30 <sbp> wow, major web fail
12:40:41 *** kpreid (n=kpreid@cpe-69-202-162-8.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
12:40:44 <sbp> try getting a complete site of the fragments of Sappho
12:41:01 <_bjoern> what's the non-gui linux magic to use german keyboard mappings on the console?
12:42:24 <nsh> apropos keyboard
12:42:31 <_bjoern> debian magix would suffice
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12:43:47 * sbp was about to make hella fun of _bjoern for using linux, but then realised he's using a stunted BSD variant so...
12:45:58 <sbp> heh
12:46:15 <sbp> many sites about Sappho have some kind of feminine cliché on them
12:46:16 * _bjoern tries dpkg-reconfigure console-data
12:46:49 <_bjoern> I have little choice for this, I'm trying to backup old dvds and win2k3 keeps crashing on read errors...
12:47:51 <_bjoern> well that's not quite right still but at least / and : work
12:47:57 <aspect> _bjoern: http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/441
12:48:20 <aspect> install-keymap perhaps
12:50:23 <_bjoern> thanks but the above will do for now
12:50:59 <_bjoern> there we go, got ddrescue compiled
12:51:08 <_bjoern> kinda smart not including that one in knoppix...
12:52:55 <_bjoern> But then the latest cd knoppix also doesn't boot here
12:53:10 <_bjoern> it hangs trying to treat my music hard drive as cd
12:54:48 <_bjoern> there should be a wput tool to complement wget.
12:57:40 <aspect> wget --post-file ?
12:57:59 <kpreid> curl -T?
12:59:08 <_bjoern> Personally I'd probably use POST -m PUT, from the libwww-perl dist.
12:59:36 <_bjoern> trouble is I lack the store for my files...
12:59:49 <aspect> nc :-)
13:00:06 <_bjoern> nah counting the bytes is a pita.
13:00:25 <aspect> you need to count bytes for nc?
13:00:39 <_bjoern> for http
13:00:57 <_bjoern> to set the chunk size or the content-length
13:01:30 <aspect> I was thinking nc to an nc -l
13:01:49 <aspect> doesn't wget --post-file do what you want
13:01:50 <aspect> ?
13:02:30 <_bjoern> "use the POST method; send contents of FILE."
13:02:34 <_bjoern> that's not PUT
13:02:46 <aspect> ah
13:03:54 * aspect back in box
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13:11:33 <sbp> .u alpha tonos
13:11:33 <phenny> U+03AC GREEK SMALL LETTER ALPHA WITH TONOS (ά)
13:11:34 <Monty> "you"
13:11:48 * sbp thwaps Monty
13:11:48 <Monty> aye, you're such lists them when i'm not right to _bjoerns gcs i thought we'd find I'd get relegated, that's actually about now... the planet being spunky
13:11:59 <sbp> .u small sigma
13:12:00 <phenny> U+03C3 GREEK SMALL LETTER SIGMA (σ)
13:12:02 <sbp> .u small lambda
13:12:02 <phenny> U+019B LATIN SMALL LETTER LAMBDA WITH STROKE (ƛ)
13:12:08 <_bjoern> .gc relegated porn
13:12:09 <phenny> relegated porn: 153,000
13:12:10 <sbp> .u gr small lambda
13:12:11 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, no results for 'gr small lambda'.
13:12:15 <sbp> .u gr lambda
13:12:16 <Monty> "you"
13:12:16 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, no results for 'gr lambda'.
13:12:30 <_bjoern> .u lamda
13:12:31 <phenny> U+03BB GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA (λ)
13:12:47 <sbp> .u λ
13:12:48 <phenny> U+03BB GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA (λ)
13:12:51 <sbp> sheesh
13:12:58 <sbp> thanks
13:13:03 <_bjoern> I rock!
13:13:09 <sbp> .u ς
13:13:09 <phenny> U+03C2 GREEK SMALL LETTER FINAL SIGMA (ς)
13:13:15 <sbp> THAT YOU DO
13:15:03 <_bjoern> "In the Sailor Moon manga, the character Sailor Cosmos claimed to have the ultimate "Lambda Power." "
13:15:51 <_bjoern> hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ChibiChibiManga.gif
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13:17:49 <Arnia> _bjoern: he was a Haskell programmer?
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13:24:12 <sbp> hmm... Lobel-Page
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13:25:10 <sbp> ah, this? Poetarum Lesbiorum fragmenta. Ediderunt Edgar Lobel et Denys Page. Consisting of the works of Sappho and Alcaeus, with fragments by other unknown authors by Edgar Lobel and Denys Lionel Page (1955)
13:25:22 <sbp> hmm
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13:27:38 <sbp> hmm, http://amazon.co.uk/dp/1844080811 seems passable
13:27:40 <sbp> .title
13:27:43 <phenny> sbp: Amazon.co.uk: If Not, Winter: Fragments of Sappho: Anne Carson: Books
13:36:47 <sbp> “Sappho is a mystery. Her life is a mystery and so is her work because of its incompleteness. It is partly what is missing in the poems, what we don't know, to which we bring our own desires and interpretations, that enhances its erotic spell.”
13:36:52 <sbp> - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E05E6DC103CF935A1575BC0A9649C8B63
13:38:52 <sbp> all translation should be presented as original, literal, and liberal in three columns!
13:39:14 <sbp> why is such a structure so very rarely used?
13:39:27 <sbp> really annoying
13:39:59 * sbp considers going to bookshops tomorrow
13:40:04 <sbp> for the first time in... ages
13:40:15 <sbp> funny how online bookshops so pervade now
13:40:28 <sbp> but they don't let you browse books beforehand as much as they should
13:40:34 <Arnia> I still prefer the real world ones
13:40:36 <sbp> which seems to be a particular problem here
13:40:40 <Arnia> I love the feel of bookshops
13:40:51 <sbp> I'm still upset that my favourite bookshop shut down
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13:41:21 <sbp> and I agree
13:42:15 <sbp> there must be a good book about Sappho out there somewhere
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13:47:14 <Monty> lo is
13:47:24 <sbp> wow, Yopie Prins writes a good bit of metacomment on the fragmentary state of the works
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13:53:37 <sbp> exceptional
13:58:09 *** tschaub (n=tschaub@72-173-122-185.cust.wildblue.net) has joined #swhack
13:58:13 <sbp> [[[
13:58:13 <sbp> The Suda is alone in claiming that Sappho was married to a "very wealthy man called Cercylas, who traded from Andros"[17] and that he was Cleïs' father. This tradition may have been invented by the comic poets as a witticism, as the name of the purported husband means "prick from the Isle of Man."[18]
13:58:18 <sbp> ]]] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sappho
13:59:19 <sbp> um wow, this was a real citation
13:59:20 <sbp> [[[
13:59:21 <sbp> A single example. We are told over and over again that Sappho "was married to Kerkylas of Andros, who is never mentioned in any of the extant fragments of her poetry" (Snyder). Not surprising, since it's a joke name: he's Dick Allcock from the Isle of MAN. It's been over 139 years since William Mure pointed this out and it is there in Wilamowitz and easily accessible in the Real-Encyclopädie.
13:59:27 <sbp> ]]] - http://mkatz.web.wesleyan.edu/Images2/cciv243.Parker.html
13:59:57 <sbp> though twisted somewhat to make it funnier in the Wikipedia version
14:00:58 <sbp> I get it now, too. Andros... Man...
14:01:02 <sbp> that's just hilarious
14:02:59 <tschaub> hey, I'm trying to troubleshoot a connection error with phenny - socket.gaierror: (-2, 'Name or service not known')
14:03:02 <tschaub> any tips?
14:03:25 <sbp> woah: http://www.stoa.org/sol/
14:03:26 <sbp> .title
14:03:27 <nsh> oh, those GAI errors are an arse to debug
14:03:28 <phenny> sbp: Stoa | Welcome to the Suda On Line (SOL)
14:03:39 <sbp> tschaub: er yeah, that's something to do with your connectivity
14:03:52 <sbp> apparently a DNS lookup problem
14:03:53 <nsh> sbp: sweet
14:04:28 <sbp> yay: http://www.stoa.org/sol-bin/search.pl?db=REAL&search_method=QUERY&login=guest&enlogin=guest&user_list=LIST&page_num=1&searchstr=Kerkylas&field=any&num_per_page=100
14:04:29 <tschaub> thanks - odd that I was connected w/o problem and then just tried to restart phenny
14:04:37 <tschaub> guess dns could have changed
14:04:55 <sbp> [[[
14:04:55 <sbp> [4] "Kerkylas from Andros": these names seem to be bawdy puns. "Kerkylas" is unattested elsewhere and is apparently derived from kerkos, penis; Andros, while a real island, also means "of [a] man". Thus, the Suda claims that the famous Lesbian poet was married to "Dick Allcock from the Isle of Man," in Holt Parker's translation (309). Sappho appeared as a character in numerous Greek comedies (see Campbell, 27), and Aly suggests that these may be the original sourc
14:04:55 <sbp> e of "Kerkylas from Andros."
14:04:56 <sbp> ]]]
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14:06:00 <sbp> what! “And she first discovered the plectrum.”
14:06:03 <sbp> awesome
14:06:24 <sbp> footnote: “The present claim is a very odd one; Campbell suggests that there may be a confusion with pectis, a type of harp; cf. West, op.cit. 71-2.” - hehe
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14:08:02 <sbp> .gc antistoichia
14:08:02 <phenny> antistoichia: 154
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14:18:14 <sbp> “A paradox involving alkahest is that, if it dissolves everything, then it cannot be placed into a container, because it would dissolve the container.” — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkahest
14:20:40 <Arnia> A paradox involving YOU
14:20:47 <kpreid> sbp: bah! fields!
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14:20:55 <Arnia> I don't see why that's a paradox though... just means it can't be contained
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14:21:37 <nslater> "It was much sought after by alchemists for what they thought would be its invaluable medicinal qualities."
14:21:42 <nslater> ... what, instadeath?
14:23:59 <nslater> also, edited to removed the word "paradox" :p
14:29:03 <Arnia> nslater: instadeath is underrated by badgers
14:30:06 <nslater> I want to see some cold hard statistics to back up that claim.
14:30:07 <Arnia> Right. Paper submitted
14:32:07 * nslater hands Arnia a celebratory glass of alcoholic plum juice
14:32:10 <plum> what about a plum-drawn map? where do you buy these glasses from?
14:32:18 <nslater> what paper anyway?
14:32:22 <Arnia> nslater: plum brandy?
14:32:27 <plum> hehe, i just cannot find this paper, as i if it doesnt really replace my paper workflow then its not good enough.
14:32:27 <nslater> sounds good!
14:33:14 <nslater> Arnia: what paper? :)
14:33:18 <Arnia> nslater: anyway, the title is "The Automatic Integration of Ontology and Folksonomy with Non-Axiomatic Logic"
14:33:21 <nslater> heh
14:33:26 <nslater> hmm
14:33:56 <nslater> that's an interesting concept
14:34:17 <nslater> what do you call the synthesis of ontology and folksonomy?
14:34:30 <Arnia> fonomy
14:34:34 <nslater> lol
14:38:56 <nslater> JibberJim: hey, is the sentence "and it had a large cock in it this time" on your home page a typo or a lack in my understanding? ;)
14:39:35 <Arnia> nslater: get down the pub and explanations will be forthcoming
14:39:42 <nslater> oh okay :p
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14:44:56 <Arnia> Right. I'm going to take a couple of hour's break and then get to work on the next paper
14:46:04 <Arnia> (this one will be easier because I already have a lot of the material in note form, and good explanations in other papers I've written so it more of a glue job with expansion of certain points)
14:50:02 <nslater> excuse my ignorance, but what's the purpose of publishing papers?
14:51:06 <nslater> is it financial, for reputation, for your PhD or just because it's something fun to do?
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15:00:11 <Arnia> Financial, because you need evidence of the acceptance of your ideas to get funding. Reputation, because it shows evidence that you come up with ideas that others follow. For my PhD, because it reduces the amount of peer review in the viva. But it is also fun.
15:01:06 <Arnia> Hm. They inventing cocktails for the four elements over at the bar, and then they're going to do the Zodiac Challenge (one cocktail for each sign of the zodiac) which they just invented
15:03:05 <Arnia> The one for Earth is quite nice: gin, raspberrycello, lemonade and a dash of bitters.
15:03:15 <Arnia> Tastes like raspberry slush puppy
15:04:21 <Arnia> They're designing Fire now... cinnamon and orange are being suggested
15:06:50 <sbp> mmm... slush puppies
15:07:00 <sbp> that's a pretty good idea
15:09:41 <clsn> When Germany invaded Denmark in World War II, the Hungarian chemist George de Hevesy dissolved the gold Nobel Prizes of Max von Laue and James Franck into aqua regia to prevent the Nazis from stealing them. He placed the resulting solution on a shelf in his laboratory at the Niels Bohr Institute. It was subsequently ignored by the Nazis who thought the jar—one of perhaps hundreds on the shelving—contained common chemicals. After the war, de Hevesy retur
15:09:42 <clsn> ned to find the solution undisturbed and precipitated the gold out of the acid. The gold was returned to the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences and the Nobel Foundation presented new medals to Laue and Franck.[3]
15:09:54 <clsn> -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_regia
15:10:04 <clsn> Fucking brilliant. :)
15:10:31 <nslater> Arnia: cool, thanks for explaining :)
15:10:57 * nslater is very excited about having picked up a copy of GTA in town today :D
15:11:07 <Arnia> Fire is a red aftershock with orange juice floated on top
15:11:41 <clsn> Too bad the obvious cocktail for water is so boring.
15:11:43 <Arnia> Water is a blue WKD with a creme de menthe depth charged; tastes wonderful and is a brilliant colour which changes in the first thirty seconds
15:12:03 <nslater> Arnia: ever tried cheaky vimto?
15:12:05 <Arnia> Air is a sex on the beach without the cranberry
15:12:07 <nslater> cheeky
15:12:08 <Arnia> nslater: yes
15:12:12 <nslater> i love those things
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15:12:43 <sbp> .gd apercu
15:12:43 *** _bjoern has quit ("Quit")
15:12:44 <phenny> apercu: a short synopsis
15:13:06 <Arnia> We just invented the Pagan Wheel of the Year drinking game
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15:33:47 <sbp> .title http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/Humanities/OntheNewThought.html
15:33:48 <phenny> sbp: On the New Thought
15:33:50 <sbp> good essay
15:33:54 <sbp> (means: read it, dude!)
15:35:41 <nsh> good like what kinda insect doing what kinda dramatic plot resolution from popular film?
15:38:37 <sbp> good like the dragonbeetle Trömpfel from the classic 1933 German interwar film Das Kaupft, who in the final five seconds of the film lands on the German leader's face and the leader obliterates its beauty not realising that he has been mortally stung by his callousness
15:39:45 <nsh> that's pretty damn good good
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15:40:11 <nsh> sbp++
15:41:58 <nslater> so, marcus garvey suffered a stroke, a newspaper thought he had died, published an obituary describing him as "broke, alone and unpopular", marcus read his obituary, was so shocked that he had a second stroke and died - how sad is that
15:42:13 <nslater> .wik List of premature obituaries
15:42:14 <phenny> "A premature obituary occurs when someone's death is reported while they are still alive." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_premature_obituaries
15:46:14 * Arnia distributes nslater across the field H
15:46:25 <nslater> .wik field H
15:46:27 <phenny> "In physics, a magnetic field is a field that permeates space and which exerts a magnetic force on moving electric charges and magnetic dipoles." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field
15:46:51 * nslater kicks Arnia in the southern dipole
15:48:49 <Arnia> Uh... quaternions
16:02:23 *** thelsdj (n=thelsdj@c-67-180-147-3.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
16:09:25 <sbp> .gd metope
16:09:25 <phenny> metope: A decorated panel found between the trigyphs on the Frieze of a Doric entablature.
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16:27:56 <sbp> .wik Kadmaean
16:27:57 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Kadmaean".
16:28:03 <sbp> .gc Kadmaean
16:28:03 <phenny> Kadmaean: 5
16:28:16 <sbp> hmm
16:30:54 <Arnia> Hm. The BCS formatting template is ugly
16:33:51 <clsn> Kadmus or Cadmus is credited as the inventor of the alphabet in Greek myth.
16:33:55 <clsn> .wik cadmus
16:33:55 <phenny> "Cadmus, or Kadmos (Greek: Κάδμος), in Greek mythology, was a Phoenician prince[1]|, son of Agenor and the brother of Phoenix, Cilix and Europa.[2]| Cadmus founded the city of Thebes, and its acropolis was originally named Cadmeia in his honor." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus
16:35:05 <sbp> thanks clsn!
16:53:34 <Morbus> sbp would you be interested in playing a play-by-forum-post ghyll rpg?
16:57:40 <sbp> forum post?!
16:58:25 <sbp> why forum post?
17:07:29 * Arnia just explained cladogenesis using town planning
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17:23:29 <Monty> yo _bjoern!
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17:25:35 <_bjoern> yo Monty.
17:25:36 <Monty> off it *is* prophetic
17:25:43 <_bjoern> It is indeed Monty.
17:25:49 <Monty> plum: do you not using MFC for internet people idiots. someone in loads the "WHATWG" Wiki.
17:25:52 <plum> wait hsbc beck has internet banking, is the faq page a plum yet?
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17:55:00 <cre8radix> re
17:58:10 <Arnia> or
17:58:18 <Arnia> phenny!
17:58:18 <phenny> Arnia!
17:58:24 * Arnia hugs phenny
18:05:11 <sbp> .wik Cladogenesis
18:05:12 <phenny> "Cladogenesis is an evolutionary splitting event in which each branch and its smaller branches forms a 'clade', an evolutionary mechanism and a process of adaptive evolution that leads to the development of a greater variety of sister organisms." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladogenesis
18:09:17 * Arnia is still trying to integrate exotic probabilities and non-axiomatic logic
18:09:55 <Arnia> I'm hoping to provide a metatheoretical framework for physics which can be analysed using NARS
18:10:49 <Arnia> This can then also be used to provide a model for how scientific theories spread through communities, which I hope will also lead to a dynamics of various scientific methods
18:11:38 <Arnia> ahem. I should stop getting distracted by weird thoughts
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18:19:07 <thelsdj> new zp: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/4862-Zero-Punctuation-God-of-War-Chains-of-Olympus
18:22:46 <thelsdj> "Congruous! A word I can't illustrate"
18:24:01 *** KiYanWang has quit ()
18:24:34 * Arnia looks non-plused
18:24:49 <Arnia> Uh, congruency is a geometric concept so surely illustrate it like that
18:25:31 <sbp> .u o tonos
18:25:35 <sbp> .u gr sigma
18:25:37 <sbp> .u gr alpha
18:25:56 <sbp> oh sweet, ZP
18:25:58 <phenny> U+03B1 GREEK SMALL LETTER ALPHA (α)
18:25:59 <phenny> U+03C3 GREEK SMALL LETTER SIGMA (σ)
18:26:00 <phenny> U+03CE GREEK SMALL LETTER OMEGA WITH TONOS (ώ)
18:30:13 <sbp> CONGRUOUS
18:30:27 <sbp> not omega you dipshit
18:30:32 <sbp> .u omi tonos
18:30:33 <phenny> U+03CC GREEK SMALL LETTER OMICRON WITH TONOS (ό)
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18:32:56 <Arnia> Anyone else writing anything for http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=nav.9878
18:32:57 <Arnia> .title
18:33:02 <phenny> Arnia: International Academic Research Conference : BCS
18:34:15 <procto> Arnia: you haven't confirmed me as a friend on brightkite!
18:34:27 <procto> how darest thou!
18:36:59 <Arnia> procto: I haven't done much with it yet. Been busy papering
18:37:14 <Arnia> Just started writing one of two papers I intend for the BCS conference
18:37:56 <Arnia> (which will take me up to six papers this year, one journal, four conference and one workshop; a bit less than I was aiming for by August)
18:38:12 * sbp grumbles at not being able to translate όσα
18:38:51 <sbp> sites keep saying "as much as"
18:39:10 <bancus> osa?
18:39:15 <sbp> yeah
18:39:19 <bancus> (My terminal kinda hoses it up.)
18:39:20 <sbp> well, ósa
18:39:25 <bancus> Yeah.
18:39:50 <sbp> I'd paste the original context, but I guess your term would hose that up *more*
18:40:02 <sbp> well, here's the transliterated version:
18:40:03 <bancus> Actually.
18:40:03 <sbp> Espere panta pherôn, osa phainolis eskedas Auôs,
18:40:03 <sbp> Phereis aiga, phereis oïn, phereis apu mâteri paida.
18:40:12 <sbp> I have a translation for it, but I want to check the translation basically
18:40:15 <sbp> word-by-word
18:40:45 <bancus> Ωερε τε βρεατινγ μαρκ
18:40:46 <bancus> ωοοπ
18:40:54 <bancus> Where's the breathing mark?
18:41:02 <sbp> Espere is Hesper (evening star), panta is all, pherôn seems to be transport or somesuch verb, Auôs is Dawn, phereis is bears, mâteri is mother...
18:41:10 <sbp> the what-now?
18:41:25 <bancus> Every initial vowel must have either a soft-breathing mark or hard-breathing..
18:41:39 <bancus> Based on that transcription, it should probably be soft-breathing.
18:41:41 <sbp> on which word? όσα?
18:41:57 * sbp knows pretty much nothing about Greek, making this exercise somewhat hard
18:41:57 <bancus> Yeah.
18:42:05 <bancus> Any word starting in a vowel.
18:42:23 <sbp> it has a tonos though, if that answers what you ask
18:42:31 <bancus> I believe that this is why, BTW, we don't consider words starting with h as starting with a consonant for the a/an rule.
18:42:33 <sbp> how else would it be denoted?
18:42:38 <bancus> Tonos is separate from breathing.
18:42:47 <bancus> The breathing mark looks more like an apostraphe.
18:42:50 <bancus> You'd have both on htere.
18:42:57 <bancus> http://wiki.epicurus.info/iurl/index.php?title=Template:GED:ὅσα
18:42:59 <sbp> oic
18:43:04 <bancus> that has both
18:43:18 <bancus> Greek didn't have a letter for H.
18:43:18 <sbp> gotcha. looks like a piece of schmutz on my screen
18:43:26 <sbp> but yeah, no breathing mark in the original!
18:43:27 <bancus> It was only on vowel-initial words that the sound could occur.
18:43:48 <bancus> And they still "started with a vowel".
18:43:58 <bancus> Hence shit like "an historic occasion"
18:44:12 <sbp> oho, I see
18:44:14 <bancus> My good lexicon is at home, sadly.
18:44:31 <sbp> .u ὅ
18:44:31 <phenny> U+1F45 GREEK SMALL LETTER OMICRON WITH DASIA AND OXIA (ὅ)
18:44:32 <Monty> "you"
18:44:50 <jsled> Monty: Nö, Ŭ.
18:44:51 <Monty> £££
18:44:51 <sbp> nu, Monty
18:44:54 <Monty> Lots of fecal torment, ranging from home it easy
18:44:55 <sbp> heh
18:44:59 <bancus> :o
18:45:02 <bancus> "fecal torment"?
18:45:05 <bancus> Wait.
18:45:06 <bancus> :x
18:45:16 <bancus> Let me close my mouth before asking that.
18:45:20 <sbp> yeah...
18:51:44 <sbp> phenny: "Vespre! Te'ns enduus tot el que ens portà la fúlgida aurora"?
18:51:46 <phenny> sbp: I think it's Catalan, which I can't translate.
18:51:52 <sbp> phenny: es "Vespre! Te'ns enduus tot el que ens portà la fúlgida aurora"?
18:51:58 <phenny> sbp: "vespre! téns enduus tot the one that ens portà the fúlgida aurora" (es)
18:53:50 <Arnia> sbp: want me to get my friendly ancient history PhD student to have a look?
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19:07:23 <sbp> Arnia: ooh, that would be nice
19:07:25 <sbp> thanks!
19:07:34 <Arnia> Email me it and I'll forward it on
19:09:24 <sbp> done
19:21:48 <sbp> .gd Weltanschauung
19:21:48 <phenny> Weltanschauung: A German term referring to a person's worldview or philosophy.
19:21:49 <Monty> _bjoern: Sorry, can't get royalties for work, is there may depend on mac, but close)
19:24:20 <Arnia> Right, forwarded
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19:32:48 <clsn> Yannis Harambolous somewhere has an article about minimal pairs in Greek based on placement of breathing marks.
19:34:05 <sbp> .u ups tonis
19:34:06 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, no results for 'ups tonis'.
19:34:10 <sbp> .u ups tonos
19:34:11 <phenny> U+03CD GREEK SMALL LETTER UPSILON WITH TONOS (ύ)
19:34:12 <Monty> "you"
19:47:19 * sbp memorises an Ezra Pound poem
19:50:55 <clsn> .g aulos aulos
19:50:56 <phenny> clsn: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/43200/aulos
19:51:01 <clsn> .title
19:51:02 <phenny> clsn: aulos -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
19:51:08 <clsn> .g "aulos aulos"
19:51:09 <phenny> clsn: http://www.thefind.com/instruments/info-aulos-aulos-classroom-recorder
19:51:33 <clsn> .g αυλος
19:51:34 <phenny> clsn: http://www.websters-dictionary-online.org/translation/Old+Greek/%25CE%25B1%25CF%2585%25CE%25BB%25CF%258C%25CF%2582
19:51:41 <clsn> .g yannis aulos
19:51:42 <phenny> clsn: http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/fmr653.htm
19:59:53 <clsn> http://omega.enstb.org/yannis/pdf/aulos-aulos.pdf But I can't make sense of it either.
20:01:03 <clsn> I think it's the fact that ἄυλος and αὐλός are pronounced differently and mean different things.
20:04:16 <bancus> I believe that, in the second one, ay is a diphthong.
20:04:24 <bancus> but not in the first one
20:06:30 <clsn> Yes. Like aulos vs ahulos.
20:06:53 <clsn> And since most accent marks are dropped when capitalized in Greek, this can be a problem... Something about that.
20:08:54 <kpreid> Arnia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYUay3dCWBc might be interesting; a scheme for anytime answers on certain kinds of relational database queries
20:11:59 <Arnia> Danke
20:22:18 <mahound> .etym cookie
20:22:18 <phenny> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'encode' (file "/var/www/inamidst.com/htdocs/phenny/modules/etymology.py", line 80, in f_etymology)
20:22:21 <mahound> aha
20:22:23 <mahound> :D
20:22:24 <bancus> ahulos is not possible in greek
20:22:37 <bancus> The h only ever appears at the beginning.
20:23:11 *** TedThibodeauJr has quit ()
20:23:17 <bancus> Try more like A,ulos vs aulOs
20:25:00 <mahound> sbp, it seems phenny needs a fix in the etymology module :)
20:25:19 <sbp> yes, but the command is .ety
20:25:20 <phenny> sbp: 20:59Z <mahound> tell sbp to fix your etymology module ;)
20:25:24 <sbp> .ety cookie
20:25:25 <phenny> "1703, Amer.Eng., from Du. koekje 'little cake,' dim. of koek 'cake,' from M.Du. koke (see cake)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=cookie
20:25:25 <Monty> bphil is based on generators...
20:25:28 <mahound> oh
20:25:29 <mahound> cool
20:25:37 <sbp> you're welcome :-)
20:25:45 <sbp> I need to fix it triggering on .etym
20:25:46 <mahound> so, it's not the etymology module :P
20:25:51 <mahound> ok
20:26:14 <sbp> thanks for ye report
20:26:53 <mahound> u're welcome
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20:33:57 <Monty> lo nwalsh_
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20:36:05 <zachb> batch is sooo weak
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21:53:27 <kpreid> phenny: tell Arnia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faJ8N0giqzw&NR=1 -- compositional GUI
21:53:27 <phenny> kpreid: I'll pass that on when Arnia is around.
21:53:52 <Arnia> Damn you, more fun stuff :)
21:53:52 <phenny> Arnia: 22:29Z <kpreid> tell Arnia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faJ8N0giqzw&NR=1 -- compositional GUI
21:54:00 * Arnia queues it all up for later
21:54:42 <kpreid> I think I need to incorporate these ideas into my ui project
21:55:01 <kpreid> Visualization of functions (provided the object I have is in fact a function)
21:56:18 <Arnia> Everything is a function ;)
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22:46:15 <deltab> .swhack up early out
22:46:38 <deltab> .swh up early out
22:46:43 <phenny> deltab: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-04-29#T07-58-20
22:47:29 * bancus considers trying to buy something.co.ma sites
22:47:38 <bancus> Like diabetic.co.ma to discuss sugary goods
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23:09:36 <procto> bancus: heh. I see someone already registered dog.ma
23:10:02 <procto> bancus: you're supposed to have a local contact. I wonder how that guy got around that. I doubt that "cliff" is morrocan
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23:11:14 <bancus> Heh.
23:11:28 <procto> dotmaroc wants 25 euros
23:11:32 <procto> a year
23:11:34 <procto> a bit step
23:11:38 <procto> steep
23:21:12 <jsled> Oh, echochrome for the PS3 out tomorrow.
23:21:26 <bancus> I downloaded the demo last night, but forgot to play it.
23:21:33 <jsled> the demo is very short.
23:21:43 <jsled> I quite liked it.
23:23:00 <jsled> Oh my. [[[
23:23:01 <jsled> The goal of Paulville.org it to establish gated communities containing 100% Ron Paul supporters and or people that live by the ideals of freedom and liberty.
23:23:05 <jsled> ]]] - http://paulville.org/
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