2008-05-01 Swhack IRC Log

00:00:26 *** _bjoern (n=bjoern@dslb-084-057-254-139.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
00:01:14 <_bjoern> phenny, tell sbp hardhax http://www.stuff.co.nz/4503907a10.html
00:01:14 <phenny> _bjoern: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
00:02:11 <_bjoern> .gc Schlangenöl
00:02:12 <phenny> Schlangenöl: 2,390
08:16:36 *** loggy (i=sbp@66.9.179.67) has joined #swhack
08:16:36 <kornbluth.freenode.net> Topic for #swhack is: Eric Tiedemann (est, e7est) was found dead Sunday night, probably of suicide. || OoOh! All of Morbus' columns for the print-rag MacTech have been made available: http://www.mactech.com/articles/mt_indices/H_Authors.html (Hemenway, Kevin)
08:16:36 <kornbluth.freenode.net> Users on #swhack: loggy idickinson +laplink +libby +cre8radix mmmmmrob KiYanWang Talliesin dmiles_afk xjrn +kpreid Xanthor|aw mahound +Arnia pwaring +sbp2002 JibbyBot Pierre jeffarch TedThibodeauJr cskaterun +sbp chandler aspect +nslater kwijibo xavier MoiraA swhask eel lisppaste2 beobal radii Tene dahut clsn plum maxkelley selggig Louie` tro zachb trotek Jonashdsf realist earle xover jsled Monty Morbus swhacker Mike_L procto tobbez CaptSolo Lumiere ido
08:16:36 <kornbluth.freenode.net> Users on #swhack: sr edsu mekano-pip jroes bancus Tracy_P +deltab phenny
08:17:12 <sbp> yo
08:17:12 <phenny> sbp: 00:37Z <_bjoern> tell sbp hardhax http://www.stuff.co.nz/4503907a10.html
08:17:13 <phenny> sbp: 01:43Z <kpreid> tell sbp loggy is missing
08:32:59 <laplink> Wow, that was one hell of a bug.
08:33:22 *** danieljohnlewis (n=danieljo@cpc5-oxfd2-0-0-cust8.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) has joined #swhack
08:35:21 <sbp> did you smack it with your shoe, or just let it out the window?
08:36:12 <laplink> I took the nuclear option.
08:36:20 <sbp> one of those great referrers: [sprite league breeding faries on sale]
08:39:22 * laplink sends loving thoughts to the Coca Cola Company…
08:44:12 <laplink> .g sprite league breeding faries on sale
08:44:13 <phenny> laplink: http://www.infinitas.com.au/Newsletters/InfinitasNewsletter2006December.pdf
08:44:26 <laplink> .gc sprite league breeding faries on sale
08:44:27 <phenny> sprite league breeding faries on sale: 17,600
09:08:07 <laplink> .title http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/29/jimi-hendrix-sex-tap.html
09:08:08 <phenny> laplink: Jimi Hendrix sex tape - Boing Boing
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09:40:27 <laplink> .weather Tromsø
09:40:29 <phenny> Clear ☼, 9℃, 1022mb, Light breeze 2m/s (4kt) (↑) - ENTC 11:50, 0950Z
09:47:43 *** danieljohnlewis has quit ()
09:59:44 <laplink> .weather Tromsø
09:59:46 <phenny> Clear ☼, 9℃, 1022mb, Light breeze 2m/s (4kt) (↑) - ENTC 12:20, 1020Z
09:59:46 <mahound> 40 yo sextapes, wow
10:00:07 <laplink> I wonder if that counts as Necrophilia?
10:00:13 <mahound> haha
10:01:22 <realist> Wonder how many people still think celebrety sex tapes are a *new* trend?
10:06:33 <mahound> i wonder how it is possible that this one hasn't come to light earlier
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10:13:25 <Monty> But what does laplink have to do with the price of fish?
10:25:16 *** nwalsh (n=ndw@66-189-4-239.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com) has joined #swhack
10:25:16 <Monty> it's nwalsh!
10:25:38 <nwalsh> No! It's Monty!
10:25:43 <Monty> ok, think I don't get too drunk again tonight, last time was hellish, being stuck on the weather like today?
10:26:03 <nwalsh> Meh. Been there.
10:26:08 *** _bjoern (n=bjoern@dslb-084-057-238-017.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
10:27:44 <_bjoern> "Someone needs to write an original article on Vatertag and Herrentag." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatertag
10:27:54 <_bjoern> im in ur chan postin ma linx
10:28:00 * Monty spots someone who needs to learn English...
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10:39:55 <laplink> .gc "im in ur chan postin ma linx"
10:39:56 <phenny> "im in ur chan postin ma linx": 0
10:41:40 <laplink> .gc Watertag
10:41:41 <phenny> Watertag: 529
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11:03:27 * Arnia wakes up
11:03:37 <Arnia> I really really need to sort out my sleeping patterns
11:05:58 <_bjoern> Me too!
11:06:07 <_bjoern> I am literally tired of it.
11:07:10 * nslater groans
11:08:19 * Arnia kidnaps nslater's groan and imprisons it with Monty's brother, plum
11:08:20 <Monty> Meh. Been there.
11:08:25 <plum> it might be too long, leaving it in a stupid place so thye pick it up and move it does too.
11:14:13 <nslater> plum: _you're_ stupid
11:14:18 <plum> acrobat won't let me copy from this pdf for some stupid reason, give me that x until you can learn not to ask stupid questions.
11:14:23 <laplink> Percentage of people on #swhack with sleep problems?
11:14:29 * nslater puts hand up
11:14:37 * Arnia does auch
11:14:45 <Arnia> also
11:14:52 <_bjoern> 75%?
11:14:55 <Arnia> uh... I need caffeine and something to eat
11:14:56 <_bjoern> Do we include bots?
11:15:02 <nslater> but at least it allows for late night swhacking
11:15:45 <laplink> I think we include bots by definition.
11:18:21 <nslater> plum, do yo have sleeping troubles?
11:18:25 <plum> heh, late last night i ditched antlr and started writing a plum parser in bnfc, at least its fake point.
11:20:13 <laplink> I think that's a “yes”.
11:28:58 <nslater> oooh, just realised it's May Day, fantastic
11:29:10 <Arnia> May Day and local election day
11:29:15 <Arnia> woo
11:33:12 <lisppaste2> _bjoern pasted "Quick Perl magix to recover ICQ password (v2)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/60021
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12:04:11 <sbp> SEXTAPES
12:13:19 *** _bjoern (n=bjoern@dslb-084-056-223-118.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #swhack
12:13:43 <_bjoern> Hello, this is _bjoern @ Knoppix
12:14:07 <_bjoern> I think I do hate XChat, from what I can see so far.
12:14:32 <clsn> I use XChat for here. Works for me.
12:15:10 <laplink> We all hate XChat.
12:15:14 <realist> phenny's one of the more practical bots on IRC
12:15:31 * Pierre loves xchat :)
12:15:34 <laplink> We just hate it slightly less than the alternatives.
12:15:52 <_bjoern> .bytes ?
12:15:52 <phenny> _bjoern: '?'
12:15:58 <_bjoern> yeah u sux
12:16:14 <laplink> .gs phenny's one of the more * bots on IRC
12:16:15 <phenny> phenny's one of the more * bots on IRC: No results!
12:16:23 <laplink> .gs phenny is one of the more * bots on IRC
12:16:23 <clsn> Did googlecode change or something??? My svn there suddenly doesn't work.
12:16:24 <phenny> phenny is one of the more * bots on IRC: No results!
12:16:33 <laplink> .gs phenny is one of the * bots on IRC
12:16:34 <phenny> phenny is one of the * bots on IRC: No results!
12:16:40 <laplink> .gs phenny is one of the * bots on IRC
12:16:41 <phenny> phenny is one of the * bots on IRC: No results!
12:16:42 <_bjoern> let's check out the gay messenger
12:16:46 <clsn> leave off the "on IRC"
12:16:58 <laplink> .gs phenny is *
12:16:59 <phenny> phenny is *: a (7), offline (3), noah (2), in (2)
12:17:23 <clsn> .gs phenny is a * bot
12:17:24 <phenny> phenny is a * bot: very intelligent, random utilities, general utility, friendly)
12:17:33 <laplink> _bjoern: sounds like the plot of a gay porno
12:18:06 <realist> clsn: hence why linus wouldn't trust code with google :-)
12:18:32 <clsn> I suppose, but I wasn’t asking Linus.
12:21:41 <clsn> *shrug* and now it's working. Go figure.
12:22:08 <clsn> Anyone here an expert SVN subversive?
12:22:19 <kpreid> clsn: why don't you ask #svn?
12:22:24 <_bjoern> Yes, I do hate GAIM aswell
12:22:46 <clsn> kpreid: Probably because my question is likely to be something like going to #microsoftWord and asking "how do I get boldface"?
12:23:22 <clsn> And besides, people here are so much sweeter... and they don't have lollipops on #svn.
12:23:53 <clsn> .gs there are no lollipops in *
12:23:54 <kpreid> clsn: But I'm there!
12:23:57 <phenny> there are no lollipops in *: the, f1)
12:24:03 <kpreid> Well, some of the time.
12:24:08 <clsn> Yeah but do you have lollipops?
12:24:16 <_bjoern> laplink, yes, plausible title
12:25:58 <clsn> I did a split for stupidish reasons, worked for a while on the “branch”, realized this is silly, want to merge the branch back in so it becomes the trunk. Apart from the brute-force method, what’s the Right Way to do this?
12:27:12 <kpreid> clsn: isn't that the same as any other merge-to-trunk? :)
12:27:18 * clsn doesn't think he fully groks the whole “branch” concept in version control.
12:28:01 <kpreid> clsn: did you make any changes to trunk after branching?
12:28:06 <clsn> kpreid: I know how to use svn ci/co/diff/status/info. A little. Everything else is “that svn stuff”
12:28:22 <clsn> ohyeah, and add/del/mkdir/update
12:28:30 <clsn> I don’t think so.
12:28:38 <kpreid> ok, how did you create the branch?
12:29:40 <clsn> Looked it up; I think I did a checkout of the highest-level repo and did mkdirs and whatnot to create a branch subtree and whatever, and copied things over.
12:30:05 <kpreid> ok, and you committed that before making any changes to the branch?
12:30:16 <_bjoern> alllllright running ddrescue now, seems worky so far
12:30:41 <kpreid> (it's a better idea, btw, to use "svn copy <URL> <URL>", because that way you don't dump *every single branch and tag* onto your HD)
12:30:58 <clsn> Not sure... Possibly not, since the whole point was to make it different. I may well have done svn copy, I probably looked that up. It was a while ago.
12:31:01 <kpreid> (which, for sufficient numbers of such, will be a lot bigger than even the repository is)
12:31:32 <kpreid> clsn: ok, your first step is to have an unmodified (check svn status) working copy of the trunk.
12:32:52 <clsn> I can just checkout one of those, I presume. And then I suppose I can delete everything/most things and copy in the stuff from the branch by hand and checkin. That's what I would call “brute force”
12:33:29 <kpreid> clsn: dude...
12:33:49 <kpreid> clsn: you can do it the right way. you're running ahead and inventing messy ways.
12:35:23 <clsn> Yeah, like I said, I assume that isn’t the right way.
12:35:40 <nslater> .title http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/05/01.html
12:35:41 <phenny> nslater: Architecture astronauts take over - Joel on Software
12:35:41 <nslater> wow
12:35:42 <kpreid> So. Repeating.
12:35:44 <kpreid> clsn: ok, your first step is to have an unmodified (check svn status) working copy of the trunk.
12:35:47 * kpreid waits.
12:35:53 <clsn> But for the right way, I check out a working copy of the trunk.
12:36:03 <_bjoern> I clicked on the link, but it does not seem to open any browser
12:36:05 *** Arnia (n=jgeldart@0-16-cb-bd-57-e.it.wlan.dur.ac.uk) has joined #swhack
12:36:19 <_bjoern> okay rightclicked it and selected open in browser
12:36:26 <_bjoern> ahh that seems to do
12:37:09 <kpreid> clsn: Okay, find out the revision number in which you created the branch. (if you don't have it handy, svn log --limit 1 -r1:HEAD --stop-on-copy <branch URL> is an elaborate but mechanical way to do so)
12:39:07 <clsn> argh, mouse gone woogy, hold on.
12:40:45 <clsn> Had to kill firefox, bleah.
12:44:20 <clsn> Looks like r258
12:44:20 <_bjoern> ddrescue is doing very well so far
12:44:27 <_bjoern> in fact it found no errors at all after 3200 mb
12:44:37 <_bjoern> at 3700kb/s
12:44:40 <_bjoern> on average
12:44:50 <_bjoern> perhaps it gets worse with other dvds
12:45:27 <_bjoern> .g IceWeasel for Win32
12:45:28 <phenny> _bjoern: http://www.geticeweasel.org/useragent/
12:45:41 <kpreid> clsn: okay, now svn update in trunk, what revision does it print?
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12:46:07 <_bjoern> .head http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/2.0.0.1/whatsnew/
12:46:08 <phenny> _bjoern: 404, text/html, UTF-8
12:46:23 <clsn> r261.
12:47:06 <kpreid> clsn: so, in trunk, execute: svn merge -r258:261 <URL of branch>
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12:49:08 <clsn> Hmm... that would merge the current trunk with the beginning of the branch? Is that what I want?
12:49:25 <kpreid> Uh? no
12:49:32 <_bjoern> now we have an error!
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12:49:41 <kpreid> it applies the changes you made between 258 and 261 in the branch to the trunk.
12:50:19 <clsn> Oh OK...
12:51:37 *** TedThibodeauJr (n=Thud@63.119.36.36) has joined #swhack
12:51:54 <clsn> OK...
12:52:27 <kpreid> So after you've done that, you resolve conflicts (if any) and the commit.
12:52:31 <kpreid> and then commit.
12:52:41 <kpreid> Then svn delete <URL of branch>.
12:53:02 <clsn> Conflicts would have shown up with G or something in the update right?
12:53:12 <kpreid> No, C.
12:53:25 <kpreid> G means non-overlapping changes were merged together.
12:53:36 <clsn> Well, I saw only Us anyway.
12:53:54 <kpreid> So commit and then delete the branch.
12:56:12 <kpreid> Note that if you were planning to use the branch further, it would be a good idea to note in the commit of the merge which revisions you merged in.
12:56:34 <kpreid> (because the next branch-trunk merge would be a non-overlapping range)
12:56:47 <realist> Or start using a distributed VCS
12:56:53 <kpreid> or svn 1.5
12:57:03 <realist> kpreid: noted.
13:00:58 *** darobin (n=robinb@m57.net81-66-103.noos.fr) has joined #swhack
13:01:17 <clsn> OK... I should probably stop even THINKING about branching. For now it's not what I do.
13:02:35 <Morbus> is there a way in CSS to say "find me divs that DO NOT CONTAIN .class?
13:02:55 <sbp> .ety tranquil
13:02:58 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "tranquil". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=tranquil
13:03:27 <_bjoern> So it seems it found 2 errors
13:03:29 <laplink> Isn't there a :not() pseudo?
13:03:35 <_bjoern> some retrying seemed to fix those
13:03:46 <_bjoern> Yes there is :not pseudo class yes
13:03:51 <sbp> .ety tranquility
13:03:51 <phenny> "c.1374, from O.Fr. tranquilite (12c.), from L. tranquillitatem (nom. tranquillitas) 'tranquilness,' from tranquillus 'tranquil,' perhaps from trans- 'over' (here in sense of 'exceedingly') + a root related to quies 'rest' (see quiet)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=tranquility
13:04:04 <_bjoern> but I am not sure what the question is
13:04:10 <_bjoern> what does "contain" mean?
13:04:23 <kpreid> clsn: don't underestimate the power of keeping extra working copies around.
13:04:35 <Morbus> <div><h2 /><div class="content"></div></div>
13:04:44 <Morbus> i want to find all divs that have content but not an h2.
13:04:46 <clsn> Yeah... I can see that.
13:04:50 <kpreid> works fine if what you have is "unfinished work" in small enough chunks
13:05:04 <_bjoern> so the inner div but not the outer?
13:05:04 <clsn> Eh, everything I have is still small at this point.
13:05:12 <Morbus> _bjoern: yeah.
13:05:21 <kpreid> clsn: basically working copies, by keeping track of their 'base' revision, do the revision tracking and merging automatically.
13:05:33 <_bjoern> That's not possible
13:05:45 <Morbus> looks like there's a :not selector though.
13:06:11 <clsn> OK, gonna have to come to understand that later, kpreid. Gotta run out for a while tho. Thanks a lot!
13:06:11 <_bjoern> but it only applies to the element it is attached to
13:06:17 <Morbus> jrm. not only applies to attirbutes, it seems.
13:06:28 <darobin> proper native english speakers: is this what you would call a barge? http://www.laballeaubond.fr/images/global.jpg
13:06:34 <_bjoern> so you can say *:not(A) which would select all but "A" elements
13:06:49 <_bjoern> you cannot use it for structural criteria like yours
13:07:23 <darobin> anything that complicated calls for XPath
13:08:07 <Morbus> can XPath be used in CSS? ;)
13:08:14 <_bjoern> unfortunately no...
13:08:24 <darobin> well no, otherwise CSS might be a bit more useful
13:08:45 <laplink> .wik Barge
13:08:46 <phenny> "A barge is a flat-bottomed boat, built mainly for river and canal transport of heavy goods." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barge
13:09:22 <_bjoern> Don't the dishonoured dead klingons traval on one into their hell?
13:09:27 <laplink> darobin: I'd say “not really, but close enough”.
13:09:39 <darobin> laplink: ta
13:10:53 <laplink> Note that I'm not a “proper native english speaker”.
13:11:20 <darobin> _bjoern: this is a refurbished barge sitting across the Louvre and below the Pont des Arts in Paris, I don't think even dishonoured Klingons would agree
13:11:25 <laplink> Morbus: Sounds like a job for jQuery, perhaps?
13:11:29 <darobin> laplink: well, not proper that's for sure
13:12:11 <darobin> I love how Firefox has now copied Microsoft's top Windows feature — it asks me to upgrade every five minutes
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13:12:40 <_bjoern> IceWeasel didn't ask me anything a moment ago, you might consider switching.
13:13:00 <Morbus> hm.
13:13:04 <Morbus> what about sibling combinators? http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/CR-css3-selectors-20011113/
13:13:12 *** kpreid (n=kpreid@cpe-69-202-162-8.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
13:14:06 <darobin> Morbus: I don't think there's a generic solution there
13:14:13 <_bjoern> they would allow you to select divs following a h2 element, for example
13:14:13 <darobin> unless you can assume structure
13:14:28 <sbp> ...darobin! yo!
13:14:33 <darobin> sbp!!!
13:14:38 <MoiraA> hi
13:14:41 <sbp> I was getting worried that you were lost and gone forever and your shoes were number nine
13:14:47 <sbp> hey Moira
13:14:53 <laplink> .gc zero-width lookahead assertion
13:14:54 <phenny> zero-width lookahead assertion: 16,600
13:14:57 <darobin> my shoes are so not number nine!
13:15:05 <sbp> I should have suspected
13:15:25 <MoiraA> herring boxes without topses ...
13:15:42 <MoiraA> sandals were for clementine
13:15:59 <darobin> I foot 41, which I suspect must be around 7 in your derelict foot-measurement system
13:16:09 <MoiraA> sbp did I tell you what happened to me?
13:17:05 * nslater wibbles
13:17:29 <_bjoern> Yes, 41 sounds more like a decent size than 9, I mean, how would you stand on 9er feet?
13:17:34 <darobin> any thoughts on:
13:17:36 <darobin> [[[
13:17:37 <sbp> MoiraA: nope? what update?
13:17:39 <darobin> Irène + Robin are getting married.
13:17:40 <darobin> The wedding will be celebrated on July 26th 2008 shortly after 11h at the
13:17:42 <darobin> XIth arrondissement town hall in Paris. Much mirthful happenstance is expected
13:17:43 <darobin> to ensue, followed by the commandeering of a barge from 19h till dawn to rejoice
13:17:45 <darobin> and swing together throughout the night...
13:17:46 <darobin> ]]]
13:17:47 <nslater> VIOLENCE
13:17:48 <darobin> ?
13:17:52 <sbp> oops sorry. also WOAHAWESOME
13:17:59 <sbp> I'd use & not +
13:18:00 <MoiraA> car accident :/
13:18:12 <sbp> MoiraA: ...
13:18:12 <darobin> sbp: that discussion has already been had :)
13:18:16 <sbp> ha
13:18:21 <sbp> the plussists won?
13:18:29 <darobin> it looks good in the font
13:18:32 <darobin> yeah
13:18:37 <MoiraA> sbp, which sbp is you?
13:18:39 <darobin> cat+betrothed
13:18:39 <laplink> Exocet?
13:18:39 <MoiraA> in the list
13:18:45 <sbp> the plussists are always winning
13:18:52 <nslater> damn plussists
13:18:54 <sbp> MoiraA: pardon me?
13:18:56 <darobin> well they're always one plus
13:19:03 <sbp> sbp2002 is markov chained me from 2002
13:19:04 <sbp2002> really?
13:19:06 <sbp> yes
13:19:34 <laplink> you're marrying your cat?
13:19:35 <nslater> sbp: i thought it was just random snippets, not markov'd
13:19:35 <MoiraA> are you sbp or sbp2002 or neith ..... I know now :)
13:19:36 <sbp2002> so no, I don't know where their refresh button is, or how to write things. It's like people are downloading the code...
13:20:00 <MoiraA> what's the best one to PM anyway?
13:20:01 <darobin> laplink: no, but she has a say anyway
13:20:06 <sbp> nslater: markoved
13:20:11 <nslater> cooloes
13:20:13 <darobin> so doesn't read too bad?
13:20:15 <nslater> ies
13:20:20 <_bjoern> OMG OMG OMG
13:20:27 <laplink> Can you imagine? People all downloading the code and stuff.
13:20:28 <sbp> darobin: you should commission the greatest Parisian poet of the day to write you a grand epithalamium-cum-announcement!
13:20:41 <nslater> sbp2002: word up
13:20:42 <sbp2002> *** Ash sets mode: +b *!*@63.149.73.20
13:20:47 <darobin> well that's what I've done, sadly :)
13:20:49 <sbp> a huge 7,000 word epic invitation
13:20:49 <nslater> o_O
13:20:50 <sbp> hehe
13:21:11 <sbp> well I was thinking more of a cryptic work in a huge pamphlet
13:21:23 <sbp> where the invitation instructions are crypically hidden through mythical allusions
13:21:35 <darobin> hehehe
13:22:08 <sbp> MoiraA: well, not sbp2002 since it's a bot
13:22:10 <sbp2002> SpamzillaSwartz
13:22:10 <darobin> Irène is already going through hell designing a single page of the stuff, I think I won't push for more :)
13:22:14 <_bjoern> .gc Wer nicht stirbt zur rechten Zeit, tr?gt nicht bei, zu meiner Heiterkeit.
13:22:15 <sbp> hehe
13:22:23 <sbp> darobin: n3wayz, I like it
13:22:30 <darobin> coo ta
13:22:31 <sbp> modulo the fact that the plussists won, of course; but what can one do
13:22:38 <MoiraA> thats what I was hoping to avoid
13:22:42 <sbp> I like the sound of the barge thing
13:23:12 <laplink> Exocet!
13:23:18 <_bjoern> phenny!
13:23:20 * Arnia gets a cello, limon and raspberry
13:23:32 * nslater throws a bag of limons at Arnia
13:23:43 <sbp> Arnia: which element is that meant to be?
13:24:18 <Arnia> hm?
13:24:28 <darobin> sbp: if one could do anything the plussists would be two
13:24:47 <sbp> Arnia: oh, I thought it was a cocktail
13:24:49 <darobin> Paris has some nice refurbished barges, it's a nice way to party
13:25:04 <sbp> do they go up and down the river whilst you're on 'em?
13:25:05 <Arnia> sbp: Limoncello
13:25:08 <phenny> _bjoern!
13:25:09 <phenny> Wer nicht stirbt zur rechten Zeit, tr?gt nicht bei, zu meiner Heiterkeit.: 153
13:25:12 <sbp> are are they docked and berthed?
13:25:19 * Arnia is reminded of the Prince Bish
13:25:20 <laplink> .gs Paris has some nice refurbished *
13:25:20 <phenny> Paris has some nice refurbished *: No results!
13:25:29 <laplink> .gs Paris has some nice *
13:25:29 <phenny> Paris has some nice *: facilities (2)
13:25:35 <_bjoern> .gs paris has some ... right
13:25:35 <Arnia> .gs London has some nice *
13:25:36 <phenny> Query must have one "*" exactly
13:25:38 <phenny> London has some nice *: work too, work pictured, street names, restaurants, parts, pages, ones thougg, ideas, green bits, green, girls, bits, areas also with, areas, accessib)
13:25:40 <laplink> dull plavce
13:25:54 <Arnia> .gs Newcastle has some nice *
13:25:55 <phenny> Newcastle has some nice *: venues (2)
13:25:56 <darobin> they're docked, I'm not sure exactly how that's different from berthed :)
13:25:57 <_bjoern> .gs mannheim has some nicht *
13:26:00 <phenny> mannheim has some nicht *: No results!
13:26:03 <_bjoern> .gs mannheim has some nice *
13:26:03 <phenny> mannheim has some nice *: No results!
13:26:09 <_bjoern> .gs mannheim has some *
13:26:10 <phenny> mannheim has some *: public, of the best, fifteen suburbs)
13:26:14 <Arnia> .gs Durham has some nice *
13:26:14 <phenny> Durham has some nice *: parts (2)
13:26:19 <Arnia> Really?
13:26:29 * Arnia crams Logtalk
13:26:35 <_bjoern> ... in ur dreamz lol
13:26:37 <laplink> .gd dock
13:26:37 <phenny> dock: an enclosure in a court of law where the defendant sits during the trial
13:26:41 <laplink> .gd berth
13:26:42 <phenny> berth: position: a job in an organization; "he occupied a post in the treasury"
13:26:42 <darobin> .gs mannheim has some of the best *
13:26:43 <phenny> mannheim has some of the best *: No results!
13:26:51 <darobin> liar
13:26:59 <sbp> .gs mannheim is *
13:27:00 <phenny> mannheim is *: suprisin (3), celebrating (3), Ãpp (2), offline (2), notable (2), inaccurate (2), gelanceerd (2), dinsdag (2), diluted (2), convinced (2)
13:27:05 <Arnia> .g docking image
13:27:05 <phenny> Arnia: http://www.fotosearch.com/photos-images/dock.html
13:27:29 <laplink> mannheim is surprisin, indeed
13:27:36 <darobin> it's offline, too
13:27:37 <Arnia> Bah, was looking for something more interesting/nsfw
13:27:38 <kpreid> http://www.retrosabotage.com/ -- mangled classic games
13:27:45 <Arnia> Mannheim is offline?
13:28:14 <darobin> so sayeth google
13:29:24 <Arnia> wow
13:29:34 * Arnia takes Germany off the grid
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13:30:07 <sbp> now look what you did!
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14:04:09 <_bjoern> 3rd dvd is being read at 2KB/s...
14:04:21 <_bjoern> .c 4700 MB over 2KB/s
14:04:22 <phenny> (4 700 MB) over (2 (KB / s)) = 27.8518519 days
14:13:22 <_bjoern> .c 4700 MB over 3500KB/s
14:13:22 <phenny> (4 700 MB) over (3 500 (KB / s)) = 22.9180952 minutes
14:13:48 <_bjoern> .c 700 MB over (6 times 150 KB)/s
14:13:48 <phenny> ((700 MB) over (6 times 150 KB)) / s = 796.444444 hertz
14:13:58 <_bjoern> .c 700 MB over ((6 times 150 KB)/s)
14:13:58 <phenny> (700 MB) over ((6 times 150 KB) / s) = 13.2740741 minutes
14:14:09 <_bjoern> .c 700 MB over ((4 times 150 KB)/s)
14:14:10 <phenny> (700 MB) over ((4 times 150 KB) / s) = 19.9111111 minutes
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14:14:34 <_bjoern> I think my first cd-rom was double speed.
14:14:57 *** plum has quit (Remote closed the connection)
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14:16:51 <_bjoern> Hello nihraguk
14:17:07 <nihraguk> hey
14:24:54 <kpreid> .bytes “
14:24:54 <phenny> kpreid: '\xe2\x80\x9c'
14:25:09 <kpreid> eel: 0xe2 & 0x7F
14:25:37 <kpreid> hum
14:26:03 <kpreid> yo sbp
14:28:09 <chris2> do you guys know a tool to proxy acesses to foo.com.bar.org/meh to foo.com/meh transparently (with link rewrites)?
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14:31:10 <jsled> apache as a (reverse?) proxy
14:31:31 <sbp> yo kpreid
14:31:51 * kpreid points to a failed use of eel
14:31:54 <sbp> hmm
14:32:06 <sbp> eel: 0xe2 & 0x7F
14:32:06 <eel> # value: 98
14:32:09 <kpreid> and I claim that it is more interesting to have the whole calculation in the channel than half :)
14:32:09 <sbp> huh, weird
14:32:21 <sbp> well I only vaguely remember +qing it
14:32:24 <chris2> jsled: can it do link rewrites?
14:32:28 <sbp> I think it was because someone was trying to paste something
14:32:32 <sbp> and it was setting off eel
14:32:34 <kpreid> naw
14:32:40 <kpreid> it was along with the moderation experiment
14:32:43 <jsled> yeah, there's another module for link re-writes; it's mentioned in the docs about setting up the proxying.
14:32:52 <jsled> i will now find the docs for you. :p
14:32:53 <chris2> thanks
14:32:58 <sbp> ah
14:33:00 <chris2> nah, can look myself
14:33:21 <sbp> eel: 0xe2 & 0x7F
14:33:22 <eel> # value: 98
14:33:24 <sbp> yay
14:34:25 <jsled> http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/mod/mod_proxy.html#forwardreverse
14:35:09 <chris2> you dont happen to know if lighttpd or nginx can do that as well?
14:35:12 <jsled> http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/mod/mod_proxy.html#proxypassreverse
14:35:33 <jsled> "A third-party module that will look inside the HTML and rewrite URL references is Nick Kew's mod_proxy_html." - ^
14:35:44 <jsled> don't know. I'd guess so.
14:36:05 <chris2> proxy yes, but rewrite the urls probably not
14:39:28 *** darobin (n=robinb@m57.net81-66-103.noos.fr) has joined #swhack
14:39:57 <darobin> does one say "invitation required" to say that people won't be let in unless they have their invites?
14:41:02 <_bjoern> .gcs "invitation required" "invited guests only"
14:41:04 <phenny> "invitation required" (34,300), "invited guests only" (17,700)
14:43:42 <_bjoern> hmm (_8^(|) is homer.
14:46:13 <laplink> “by invitation only”
14:46:45 <_bjoern> .gc "by invitation only"
14:46:46 <phenny> "by invitation only": 1,050,000
15:06:03 <laplink> Hmm. The Flash Gordon series remake isn't too bad.
15:06:52 <laplink> Some god awfull constumes, and clearly happy amateur hour in the writing department, but a nicely naive light entertainment.
15:07:17 <laplink> Three episodes in and I don't feel the need to tear my hair out yet.
15:07:39 <laplink> Better than the average, iow.
15:08:45 <laplink> The special effects people should be shot, of course, but they can probably hide behind budgetary constraints for most of it.
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15:23:20 <mahound> sbp2002, hey
15:23:21 <sbp2002> [gong]
15:23:28 <mahound> sbp, what?
15:23:35 <mahound> sbp2002, what?
15:23:37 <sbp2002> it'll probably turn out to get insulted, then you have a stiff drink."
15:23:49 <mahound> :D
15:24:17 * mahound must have a shaney of his own
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15:33:22 <veda> hi #swhack
15:34:24 <laplink> * #swhack growls noncomittaly…
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15:42:32 <_bjoern> dath veda?
15:42:44 <_bjoern> sbp2002, penis.
15:42:45 <sbp2002> there we go! it found lines of HTML... you propose some weird non-HTTP set up that no one working on CC" or something tomorrow
15:45:32 <_bjoern> sbp2002, penis.
15:45:33 <sbp2002> do you see the messages? :-)
15:45:44 <sbp> ( 8n(|) might be better
15:45:46 <sbp> hmm, it's not
15:46:02 <_bjoern> sbp, penis.
15:46:09 <sbp> do you see the messages? :-)
15:46:20 <_bjoern> (_8^(|)
15:46:41 <sbp> /--{ }--\ is a good one too
15:46:58 <_bjoern> nu
15:47:02 <sbp> k
15:47:12 <_bjoern> nok nok nok
15:47:16 <sbp> boook
15:47:24 <_bjoern> yip yip yippieeee
15:47:32 <_bjoern> jaiyeaj
15:47:36 <sbp> reminds me: any more suggestions for the wikifaq?
15:47:49 <_bjoern> is porngc in already?
15:47:54 <sbp> hmm, nope!
15:47:57 * sbp addeth
15:48:08 <_bjoern> storks?
15:51:06 <sbp> added porngc: http://swhack.jottit.com/faq
15:51:11 <sbp> adding storks
15:52:42 <sbp> added storks
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16:01:40 <nihraguk> what's (a?) trioquecostates?
16:02:10 <sbp> [[[ <- this
16:02:12 <sbp> and this -> ]]]
16:02:35 <nihraguk> oh ok. is that a real word?
16:03:11 <sbp> ...real?
16:03:22 <nihraguk> haha
16:03:51 <sbp> I used it, it's read
16:03:53 <sbp> er, real
16:03:58 <sbp> it's also read, of course
16:04:22 <nihraguk> alright
16:04:23 <sbp> it would not have passed most people's prescriptivist definitions of real though, no
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16:04:36 <sbp> on the other hand, it does have a clear etymology
16:04:46 <sbp> and actually, it may have been used before. I haven't looked it up
16:04:53 <nihraguk> oh okay, what's its etymology?
16:04:57 <sbp> it has a logical etymology, more to the point, unless I fucked it up
16:05:02 <sbp> well, cf. quinquecostate
16:05:23 <sbp> probably quinque is the number
16:05:29 <sbp> so I should have said triocostate
16:05:31 <sbp> or somesuch
16:05:36 <sbp> but that's not as funny
16:05:47 <sbp> especially given the context, which was “messed up English”
16:05:51 <sbp> so I didn't check too hard
16:06:18 <nihraguk> yeah, quinque looks like the number
16:11:34 <laplink> Quinqy.
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16:14:05 <nsh> it's ten to eight
16:14:21 <nsh> this is not generally considered a good time to be starting the day
16:14:54 <laplink> Hit snooze.
16:15:11 <bancus_> 10 to 8?
16:15:16 <bancus_> Are you in Hawaii?
16:15:19 *** bancus_ is now known as bancus
16:15:32 *** is has quit ("leaving")
16:15:33 <bancus> Or the opposite side of the world?
16:15:35 <nsh> .wik UTC+2
16:15:35 <phenny> "Eastern European Time" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC+2
16:15:37 <bancus> Ah.
16:15:43 <bancus> Damned 12-hour clock.
16:15:45 <nsh> hawaii would be better
16:15:47 <nsh> yeah, it's a chore
16:16:10 * bancus uses 24-hour on all of his clocks.
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16:16:57 <nsh> mmm
16:17:10 <sbp> “1) stream; 2) plants and flowers; 3) shade; 4) breeze: 5) erotic play; 6) presence of divinity; and 7) sleep”
16:17:34 <nsh> cool recipe
16:17:48 <_bjoern> I thought you have to pick one
16:18:28 <laplink> neither option aapears exclusive
16:18:41 <nsh> pick one to do in the context of another while desperately attempting to avoid a third
16:21:50 <nsh> hrmm
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16:28:26 <nsh> .ety cavalcade
16:28:27 <phenny> "1591, via M.Fr., from It. cavalcata, from cavalcare 'to ride on horseback,' from V.L. *caballicare, from L. caballus (see cavalier)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=cavalcade
16:28:33 <nsh> ety cavalier
16:28:44 <nsh> .ety cavalier
16:28:44 <phenny> "1589, from It. cavalliere 'mounted soldier, knight,' from L.L. caballarius 'horseman,' from L. caballus 'horse, a pack horse.' Sense advanced in 17c. to 'knight,' then 'courtly gentleman,' which led to adj. 'disdainful' (1657)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=cavalier
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16:49:02 <_bjoern> ddrescue is totally rad
16:50:25 * _bjoern abuses swhack logs to bookmark http://www.tar.hu/gamealgorithms/index.html
16:54:57 <sbp> heh. I just .title things to achieve the same effect
16:55:13 <sbp> as a kind of “hey guys, you might be interesting in this. (ahaha, totally abusing the logs)” thing
16:55:19 <sbp> s/interesting/interested/
16:56:28 <_bjoern> You wouldn't need the s/// if you'd bookmark wearables.
16:57:01 <_bjoern> I usually "hmm" them or indeed .title them, too, but in those cases less out of need.
16:57:10 <_bjoern> Still being on Knoppix, saving it elsewhere is kinda difficult.
16:57:22 <_bjoern> Which is why I made it explicit...
16:57:42 <sbp> you could have made a secret codeword for bookmarking a thing
16:57:52 <sbp> though then everybody would be all, what's $codeword?
16:58:05 <sbp> then again, you could search using <_bjoern.*$codeword still
16:58:05 <Monty> nice guy for "tranquil". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=tranquil
16:58:09 <_bjoern> hmm://http://example.com
16:58:16 <_bjoern> the hmm scheme
16:58:48 <kpreid> sbp: hey random idea I had: "phenny: tell-with-title <nick> <url>"
17:01:25 <_bjoern> I also gc things for archival purposes, like quote collections.
17:01:27 <_bjoern> .gc "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
17:01:28 <phenny> "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.": 70,900
17:02:04 <sbp> “his house in Thebes was spared by Alexander the Great in recognition of the complimentary works he composed about and for his ancestor, king Alexander I of Macedon” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindar
17:02:10 <sbp> kpreid: mishuffmanised, I think
17:02:17 <sbp> as with the majority of phenny suggestions that I get
17:02:23 <kpreid> well, ...yeah.
17:02:32 <clsn> mishuffmanised?
17:02:33 <kpreid> I made it up on the spot
17:02:42 <clsn> poor Huffman coding?
17:02:45 <sbp> clsn: yeah
17:03:00 <sbp> so, too much effort and prominence to a function that will be used only sparingly
17:03:12 <clsn> Ooooh. You mean Zipf-violating.
17:03:24 <sbp> ...hmm, that would be a better way to put it, aye
17:03:29 <kpreid> sbp: what of doing that automatically for tells which are only urls?
17:03:32 <kpreid> .wik Zipf
17:03:32 <phenny> "George Kingsley Zipf (pronounced /ˈzɪf/), (1902-1950), was an American linguist and philologist who studied statistical occurrences in different languages." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipf
17:03:51 <clsn> .wik Zipf's Law
17:03:52 <phenny> "Zipf's law, an empirical law formulated using mathematical statistics, refers to the fact that many types of data studied in the physical and social sciences can be approximated with a Zipfian distribution, one of a family of related discrete power law probability [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipf's_Law
17:04:04 <_bjoern> .gc "leave luck to Heaven"
17:04:05 <phenny> "leave luck to Heaven": 22,200
17:04:11 <_bjoern> .gc "leave luck to Heaven" -Nintendo
17:04:11 <phenny> "leave luck to Heaven" -Nintendo: 17,400
17:04:27 <sbp> kpreid: in some instances that may spoil a joke
17:04:39 <sbp> _bjoern has been known to %HH encode URIs so as to hide jokes
17:04:43 <sbp> (for example)
17:04:57 <kpreid> ah. Zipf speaks of proportions of frequencies, whereas Huffman speaks of frequencies to lengths
17:05:16 <sbp> heh. a deltabian summary
17:05:17 <_bjoern> I even wrote a script for it
17:05:21 <sbp> awesome
17:05:55 <kpreid> sbp: elucidate?
17:06:09 <sbp> kpreid: I'll try to find an example or three, hang on
17:08:29 <sbp> sbp's three favourite deltabian explanations!
17:08:29 <sbp> * * *
17:08:29 <sbp> 1) phone cord twisting: http://swhack.com/logs/2004-06-01#T04-45-11
17:08:29 <sbp> 2) temperature: http://swhack.com/logs/2004-04-16#T09-56-41
17:08:29 <sbp> 3) bag hand: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-26#T18-47-31
17:08:30 <sbp> * * *
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17:12:34 <kpreid> sbp: I don't fully get it, unless you just mean 'well-said'
17:13:17 <sbp> kpreid: I mean that the conception of explaining something as an act of *explanation* seems kind of rare to me. you don't often get people iterating and iterating over ideas until the best way to explain it falls out
17:13:46 <sbp> with deltab, it seems to be a pattern that he's always thinking of the most vivid and clear way to explain it, and given that he's so good at it, I watch his examples to see what commonalities there are between them
17:14:24 <kpreid> ah.
17:14:52 <sbp> so far, it seems that every good Explanation that he gives is a new perspective on a problem that you can't get to just by logically thinking about it. it seems that explanation is on the same axis as poetry and discovery and so forth rather than of mere calculation or logical analysis
17:15:00 <laplink> aha. Flash Gordon == Gay Porn
17:15:06 <sbp> aha
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17:16:08 <sbp> kpreid: Al Gilman is very in the deltabian mode too
17:16:29 <sbp> you might know him as the author of the nntp URI scheme RFC...
17:17:24 <sbp> hmm, or maybe not
17:17:36 <kpreid> sbp: it is not particularly related, but this discussion made me think of "A Technical Explanation of Technical Explanation", which is a rather nice title
17:17:51 <sbp> .g "A Technical Explanation of Technical Explanation"
17:17:52 <phenny> sbp: http://yudkowsky.net/bayes/technical.html
17:17:54 <sbp> .gc "A Technical Explanation of Technical Explanation"
17:17:55 <phenny> "A Technical Explanation of Technical Explanation": 575
17:18:04 <_bjoern> wai pf would be closer memorycircuitwise
17:18:08 <_bjoern> allrightseeyoubackonwindows
17:18:15 <_bjoern> enoughlinuxfornow
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17:19:45 <sbp> ‘I should rather compare it to the random guessing of Greek philosophers, such as Heraclitus who said "All is Fire", and fancied it his theory of everything.’ - bet he's not being a very good historian...
17:22:13 <sbp> I like Feynman's story about the measurement of some subatomic value
17:22:24 <laplink> “And it burns-burns-burns…”
17:22:28 <sbp> one famous physicist made it 1.5 or whatever, and so people went into their labs and checked it
17:22:49 <sbp> and they were like... 1.5! yep, 1.5. 1.51, 1.5, 1.52, 1.53...
17:22:53 <sbp> and over the years the value drifted...
17:23:02 <sbp> 1.54, 1.55, 1.58, 1.59, 1.58
17:23:20 <sbp> the actual value was like 1.585 or whatever, and the original physicist had simply got it wrong
17:23:43 <sbp> so why, Feynman wondered, did the subsequent experimenters also get it wrong in the same way, only gradually finding the value wrong?
17:24:22 <sbp> and he figured that it was because they'd *fudged* their results, consciously or sub-consciously, because they believed the right value was different from the one that they were getting and sought to get rid of their perceived, but actually phantom, error
17:24:51 <sbp> moral of the story: if you get bad results, you have to present them too
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17:25:31 <laplink> Hmm. Or the ones who couldn't make the result be 1.5 simply didn't report their results? Selection bias?
17:25:49 <sbp> yeah, could be that too
17:25:59 <kpreid> sbp: there is a reason Yudkowsky now posts on a blog titled 'Overcoming Bias'... :)
17:26:08 <sbp> heh
17:26:34 <sbp> note that I haven't checked into Feynman's story
17:26:41 <sbp> I did check into one of his other stories, the one about his rats
17:26:45 <sbp> as I think I reported here on Swhack
17:26:52 <clsn> .g GNU lesser general public license
17:26:53 <phenny> clsn: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl.html
17:26:54 <sbp> took me like a whole morning to get roughly towards his source
17:26:59 <kpreid> "...check in, but they don't check out!"
17:27:01 <sbp> and I wasn't able to find the specific paper he mentioned
17:27:39 *** libby (n=libby@colbert-ext.lid.theveniceproject.com) has joined #swhack
17:28:08 <clsn> .g svn
17:28:08 <phenny> clsn: http://subversion.tigris.org/
17:31:30 <deltab> reuters.com has one of those news tickers that displays headlines letter by letter, but it wasn't completing the headlines before going onto the next for me: I saw OBAMA TRIES TO MOVE and FED LOWERS RAT
17:31:45 <_bjoern> sbp2002: I saw OBAMA TRIES TO MOVE and FED LOWERS RAT
17:31:46 <sbp2002> As we all know, Mr. Iff
17:31:59 <sbp> hehe
17:32:01 <_bjoern> sbp2002: Err, no, I'm not ... oh forget it.
17:32:02 <sbp2002> the HTML notabug logs from after 2002-06-04, it'll do it too
17:33:38 <Arnia> Do it do it
17:35:30 <sbp> [[[
17:35:31 <sbp> ...............a company of ragged knaves,
17:35:31 <sbp> Sun-bathing beggars, lazy hedge-creepers,
17:35:31 <sbp> Sleeping face upwards in the fields all night,
17:35:31 <sbp> Dreamed strange devices of the Sun and Moon;
17:35:33 <sbp> And they, like Gypsies, wand'ring up and down,
17:35:37 <sbp> Told fortunes, juggled, nicknamed all the stars,
17:35:39 <sbp> And were of idiots termed Philosophers
17:35:42 <sbp> ]]] - Winter on Philosophers. Thomas Nashe, Summer's Last Will and Testament
17:36:27 <_bjoern> I sense a Thomas Nashe vs Thomas Paine quote off coming.
17:36:43 <clsn> And maybe Ogden Nash too, for added spice.
17:36:44 <sbp> oh, Nashe would win by a country mile
17:37:11 <sbp> Nashe is like the patron saint of brainbunnies
17:37:17 <_bjoern> I claim british bias.
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17:37:49 <_bjoern> Nashe was pretty green, according to Wikipedia
17:37:51 <sbp> I would doubt that anybody could beat him, from what I know of the best writers in other languages even
17:37:56 <sbp> green?
17:38:01 <_bjoern> see for yourself!
17:38:14 <sbp> huh, freaky
17:38:34 <sbp> Nashe is probably my favourite writer
17:39:43 <_bjoern> "Richard Lichfield\rquote s grober Holzschnitt (1597) von Thomas Nashe aus der feindseligen Schrift "The Trimming of Thomas Nash Gentleman", gedacht als boshafte Karrikatur, um Thomas Nashe als "Knastbruder" in Misskredit zu bringen."
17:40:27 <sbp> phenny: de "Richard Lichfield's grober Holzschnitt (1597) von Thomas Nashe aus der feindseligen Schrift 'The Trimming of Thomas Nash Gentleman', gedacht als boshafte Karrikatur, um Thomas Nashe als 'Knastbruder' in Misskredit zu bringen."?
17:40:28 <phenny> sbp: "richard lichfield's rough woodcut (1597) meant from thomas nashe from the hostile writing ' the trimming of thomas nash gentleman ', as malicious karrikatur, in order to bring thomas nashe as ' knastbruder ' in discredit." (de)
17:40:35 <sbp> yeah
17:40:42 <sbp> that's why it shows him in chains and fetters
17:40:49 <sbp> but irritatingly it's the only known portrait of him
17:41:00 <sbp> not too surprising, in a way. he was a really, really biting satirist
17:41:42 <sbp> in one work he lampoons his enemy's name so many times that we're still finding some of the lampoonings now, centuries later
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17:43:16 <sbp> oh, and he coined the word "dildo"
17:43:27 <sbp> amongst many others
17:43:38 <clsn> .ety dildo
17:43:39 <phenny> "c.1593, perhaps a corruption of It. deletto 'delight,' or (less likely) of Eng. diddle (q.v.). 'Curse Eunuke dilldo, senceless counterfet' ['Choise of Valentines or the Merie Ballad of Nash his Dildo,' T." - http://etymonline.com/?term=dildo
17:43:53 <sbp> see
17:44:00 <clsn> neet. That's a great résumé-stuffer.
17:44:15 <sbp> Choise of Valentines was one of the earliest pornographic textual works in English
17:44:24 <sbp> it was written for Lord Strange, I think, and circulated only in manuscript
17:45:07 <sbp> [[[
17:45:08 <sbp> Although Thomas Nashe's poem "The Choise of Valentines" is often considered the most pornographic work to survive from a major author of the English Renaissance, the nature and intent of the poem are perhaps less simple than they first appear. The likelihood that Nashe may have had Chaucer very much in mind as he wrote his own work suggests, for instance, that his poem may have been intended as more than an exercise in sexual titillation. Instead, Nashe may have b
17:45:08 <sbp> een attempting to achieve something of the same comic irony so often associated with Chaucer.
17:45:12 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.geocities.com/katacheson/nasheevans.html
17:45:37 <ido> hrm
17:45:52 <sbp> ‘John Farmer, in his privately printed edition of the poem, glosses this term as alluding to the noun "'Nick,' female pudendum; hence nickery, copulation" (6 n).’
17:46:05 <sbp> .ety knickers
17:46:06 <phenny> "'short, loose-fitting undergarment,' now usually for women, 1881, shortening of knickerbockers (1859), said to be so called for their resemblance to those of Dutchmen in Cruikshank's illustrations from Washington Irving's 'History of New York' (see knickerbocker)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=knickers
17:46:37 *** is (n=c@c-98-216-15-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
17:47:05 <sbp> "pudendum" has always sounded, to me, a far, far ruder word than "cunt", based merely on its phonology-sense binding
17:47:19 <sbp> even though "cunt" is of course arragined against because of its Saxon heritage
17:48:07 <sbp> it kinda bugs me that words like fuck and cunt are perceived as rude through to some millennium old racism
17:48:26 <nsh> [[[ Will Jesus Christ return to Earth in the year 2015?
17:48:26 <nsh> And can studying NASA's website provide evidence for such a scenario?
17:48:26 <nsh> A minister who promotes the Old Testament roots of Christianity suggests a rare string of lunar and solar eclipses said to fall on God's annual holy days seven years from now could herald what's come to be known as the "Second Coming" of Jesus.
17:48:31 <bancus> Pretty sure I could get really into an au jus-flavored energy drink. I'd market it as "Beef'd-Up™" or maybe "Steer Slammers!™" -- Merlin Mann
17:48:32 <nsh> ]]] http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=63076
17:48:35 <bancus> Whoops.
17:48:41 <nsh> is cl mng
17:48:45 * bancus covers his bare arse and steps down from the conference table.
17:48:52 <_bjoern> why?
17:49:24 <sbp> _bjoern: who're you whying?
17:49:46 <clsn> I was definitely disappointed when I found that the Jones Soda "thanksgiving turkey" specialty flavor didn't taste like carbonated gravy.
17:49:52 <clsn> savory, dudes, not sweet!!
17:49:59 <nsh> ooo
17:50:02 <nsh> carbonated gravy
17:50:13 <nsh> Patent It.
17:50:16 <clsn> .gc "carbonated gravy"
17:50:17 <phenny> "carbonated gravy": 83
17:50:20 <sbp> man, imagine how long it would take for the bubbles to escape
17:50:20 <nsh> damn
17:50:21 <_bjoern> bancus of course, what's subtile about it mang
17:50:33 <nsh> first we must destroy the prior art
17:50:38 <nsh> then the profit shall return
17:50:46 <sbp> can we use te power of our words to destroy stuff?
17:50:56 <_bjoern> nu
17:51:19 * clsn has got to talk to some actual hw and ip geeks about patenting the scanner idea he has... been improving it.
17:51:36 <nsh> scannar?
17:51:43 <_bjoern> scanner?
17:51:45 <nsh> do what wiv scannar?
17:51:47 <bancus> _bjoern: what?
17:51:52 <nsh> wut?
17:51:55 <kpreid> clsn: mmmph! grr!
17:52:01 <_bjoern> so many questions all of the sudden.
17:52:01 *** jewel has quit (Success)
17:52:03 <bancus> I interrupted a quote-dealy.
17:52:07 <sbp> why?
17:52:16 <kpreid> clsn: (I want to ask, but I shouldn't)
17:52:17 <bancus> So I covered my bare arse.
17:52:24 * nsh chuckles
17:52:25 <_bjoern> Yes. why?
17:52:26 <bancus> As the rules have specified.
17:52:36 * bancus wonders if that rule is even still up.
17:52:39 <_bjoern> You and your rules lol.
17:52:45 <sbp> bancus++ # swhackcitizenry
17:52:57 <bancus> Yeah, there we go.
17:52:57 <_bjoern> Swhack Compliant. ISO Certified.
17:53:04 <bancus> The Golden Rule: "[You shall not f]uck with someone's quote deely. When someone types '[[[', you will remain quiet whilst the quote is pasted, and resume talking only when the complimantary [sic!] ']]]' is entered. Violating this rule is equivalent to getting up on the table during a board meeting and waving your bare arse in the air." - from The 1st Swhack FAQ (c.2002)
17:53:08 <clsn> Hrm... of *course* you're going to find a lot of lunar eclipses on passover and succot and solar eclipses on rosh hashanah. They're always at full and new moons, respectively. It's a lunar calendar.
17:53:18 <clsn> So it's hardly surprising those happen alot.
17:53:22 <_bjoern> Yes but there is no rule about covering your arse.
17:53:35 <bancus> Sure.
17:53:38 <sbp> clsn: hehe
17:53:44 <sbp> _bjoern: a man cannot innovate?
17:53:52 <bancus> But I did what I would have done had I actually done that thing that it says I'd be doing.
17:53:55 <sbp> bancus was following the spirit of the law
17:54:14 *** jewel (n=jewel@dsl-242-162-202.telkomadsl.co.za) has joined #swhack
17:54:18 <sbp> nsh: moon say WHA?!
17:54:30 <_bjoern> I can get dressed to catch my train to buy a train ticket and return.
17:54:41 <sbp> but that would suck
17:54:44 <nsh> moon say JESUITS COMEN!
17:54:55 <nsh> or sumfit
17:54:58 <sbp> hehe
17:55:05 <bancus> M-O-O-N. That spells moon.
17:55:31 <nsh> this article
17:55:37 <nsh> reminds me of something
17:55:39 <sbp> _bjoern: why would you even travel on a train at like 20:31 or 21:31 or whatever crazy moontime it is there!
17:55:42 <clsn> ISTR Bullwinkle once spelled it M-U-N-E.
17:55:48 <nsh> about people who make stuff up making up arguments about their made-up stuff
17:55:49 <sbp> ooh
17:55:51 <sbp> TEH MUEN
17:55:55 <nsh> but i can't remember what 'tis
17:56:22 <clsn> nsh: yeah, there are some articles I've seen that are like that, in a way which I'm understanding what you said which likely has no relationship to what you meant.
17:56:41 * nsh smiles
17:56:45 <nsh> "He mentioned not only Israel's birth as a political state in 1948, but the increase in tensions with Muslims, the rise of Russia, China and the European Union, which he says is even "calling itself the revived Roman Empire."
17:57:21 * nsh wants to go to a roman empire revival meeting
17:57:35 <clsn> Like the guy who had a long article discussing how Jesus could have been an incredibly rare genetic anomaly: not only born of parthenogenesis, but that bizarre case of a male phenotype without a Y chromosome (which he couldn't have gotten, being parthenogenetically born).
17:57:39 <sbp> who would be the current HRE?
17:58:04 <clsn> Dude, if you're going to bother believing the Bible in first place, why not go ahead and believe what it said?
17:58:16 <bancus> What does herft mean?
17:58:37 <nsh> .gs herft means *
17:58:38 <phenny> herft means *: No results!
17:58:53 <bancus> .ety herft
17:58:53 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "herft". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=herft
17:58:55 <sbp> .gs herft to the *
17:58:55 <phenny> herft to the *: left lean, defendant)
18:00:55 <nsh> .wik Hal Lindsey
18:00:55 <phenny> "Harold Lee 'Hal' Lindsey (born November 23, 1929) is an American evangelist and Christian writer." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Lindsey
18:01:10 <sbp> “his height is well known to have been seven times the length of his foot” - Einhard on Charlemagne
18:01:30 * nsh chuckles
18:01:33 <nsh> "Bah, out of all professions, doomsday prophets have pretty much the worst track record ever, so pardon me if I don't get my 'the end is nigh!' cardboard banner out just yet.
18:01:39 <nsh> -fark comment
18:02:05 <nsh> i wonder who has the very worst track record?
18:03:17 <bancus> W?
18:03:51 <sbp> wWWWWWWWWWWWWWwww
18:03:52 <nsh> is the maybe
18:03:54 <sbp> WwWWWWWW
18:03:58 <sbp> wwWwWWWwWwWwWwwww
18:04:02 <sbp> w is awesome
18:04:07 <nsh> pwwwWwwwwWWwwwWwwwwariiiiiiiiiiiiiiing
18:04:10 <sbp> hehe
18:04:17 <nsh> it is a very versatile letter though
18:04:21 <sbp> yeawh
18:04:45 <nsh> wi mwight stwart uwsing wit iwn awl mwy words
18:04:48 <sbp> making noises on IRC is fun
18:04:50 <sbp> like:
18:04:54 <sbp> mrroooooooooooooooouge
18:05:01 <sbp> or BROOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWGAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRR
18:05:11 <sbp> or GLOMGLOMGLOMGLOMGLOMGLOM
18:05:20 * nsh chox hard
18:06:11 <nsh> http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Kris/gazing.png
18:06:12 <sbp> hmm, I wonder if Wikipedia has a page of Second Coming predictions...
18:06:27 <sbp> ehheh
18:06:45 <sbp> ah! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming#Date_reckoning.2FPredictions
18:06:54 <nsh> there should definitely be one
18:07:24 <nsh> http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/skeptic/predictions.shtml
18:07:49 <nsh> and links therefrom
18:08:11 <nsh> http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm ftw
18:08:11 <sbp> -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_religious_prophecies
18:08:24 <nsh> [[[
18:08:26 <nsh> According to Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts (1979), an Assyrian clay tablet dating to approximately 2800 BC was unearthed bearing the words "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common." This is one of the earliest examples of the perception of moral decay in society being interpreted as a sign of the imminent end.
18:08:29 <nsh> ]]] -http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm
18:08:33 <sbp> ooh, ftw indeed
18:08:58 <nsh> oh man
18:08:58 <clsn> Aprés moi, le déluge!
18:09:02 <nsh> this would make a cool video game
18:09:08 <nsh> you travel through fucking time
18:09:13 <nsh> averting the apocalypse
18:09:20 <nsh> for each time is NEARLY DAMN WELL happened
18:09:22 <nsh> *it
18:09:27 <sbp> ‘"Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)’
18:09:34 <nsh> you have to infiltrate each apocalyptic cult in time order
18:09:39 <nsh> (or some order...)
18:09:45 <sbp> isn't that what started Prester John and/or the Wandering Jew ideas?
18:09:51 <nsh> and prevent the eschaton through crazy magics and stuff
18:09:59 <sbp> nsh: that would be good
18:10:07 <sbp> and then at the end
18:10:07 <nsh> yehit'dbefreakinawesome
18:10:15 <sbp> when you've saved the world about a hundred times
18:10:20 <sbp> on white letters on black
18:10:23 <sbp> it would say:
18:10:27 <sbp> AND NOW YOU MUST GO FORTH
18:10:29 <sbp> AND END THE WORLD
18:10:35 <nsh> freakin lush
18:10:43 <sbp> or AND SAVE THE WORLD AGAIN
18:10:45 <sbp> if parent lock is on
18:10:53 * nsh choxelles
18:11:09 <clsn> sbp: yeah, that's the start of the Wandering Jew thing. Which strikes me as one of the lamer excuses out there.
18:11:17 <nsh> i'm going to totally pitch this game to some suits
18:11:24 <clsn> Even if that's really what he meant, you have to admit that it's SERIOUSLY misleading to say that.
18:11:24 <nsh> and get like dollarmoneys
18:11:43 <sbp> [[[
18:11:44 <sbp> Feb 1, 1524 The End would occur by a flood starting in London on February 1 (Julian), according to calculations some London astrologers made the previous June. Around 20,000 people abandoned their homes, and a clergyman stockpiled food and water in a fortress he built. (Sound familiar? It's just like the doomsday cultists and Y2K nuts of today!) As it happened, it didn't even rain in London on that date. (Randi p.236-237)
18:11:44 <sbp> ]]]
18:12:01 <nsh> damn weather!
18:12:19 <nsh> Philip K. Dick had an interesting take on that verse, iirc
18:13:05 <sbp> [[[
18:13:06 <sbp> Feb 1, 1624 The same astrologers who predicted the deluge of February 1, 1524 recalculated the date to February 1, 1624 after their first prophecy failed. (Randi p.236-237)
18:13:06 <sbp> ]]]
18:13:09 <nsh> the second coming being an event in a tangetial timeline to our linear time
18:13:32 <nsh> or somefrit to that affect
18:14:29 <sbp> ‘Jesus said "no man knows the day or hour", but apparently the month and year were not covered.’
18:14:29 <sbp> - http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/skeptic/predictions.shtml
18:14:45 <clsn> nsh: however you read it so it works, it has to be admitted that for the average person listening at the time, such a sentence would be understood to mean "it's going to happen within 1 human lifetime in ordinary measurement." Any other meaning is non-Gricean prestidigitation.
18:15:17 <clsn> No matter how you explain it, it can only be seen as at the very least misleading to those present.
18:15:22 <sbp> clsn: pfft, you non-believer!
18:15:28 <clsn> sbp: um, yeah..?
18:15:31 <sbp> hehe
18:15:31 <nsh> those sure some purty words you a-usin' thar
18:16:06 <nsh> clsn, personally, i'm very sympathetic to the notion that most of jesus' (attributed) messages were multi-level ciphers
18:16:32 <bancus> .g "non-Gricean prestidigitation"
18:16:33 <phenny> bancus: No results found for '"non-Gricean prestidigitation"'.
18:16:47 <clsn> That may be so, and it's defensible. But then you have to deal with the fact that such messages comprise wilful misleading of the uninitiated.
18:17:13 <nsh> well
18:17:18 <clsn> Which probably wouldn't be a problem with other personalities.
18:17:18 <nsh> i think it's like a well-made film
18:17:22 <sbp> .title http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/literal.htm
18:17:24 <nsh> it can tell a simple story on a base level
18:17:27 <nsh> which many will appreciate
18:17:34 <phenny> sbp: Do You Interpret the Bible Literally?
18:17:35 <nsh> but at a more subtle level it can be telling a completely different story
18:17:36 <sbp> six tests to see if you do!
18:17:41 <bancus> Just go baha'i.
18:17:41 <nsh> which the base level only serves to illustrate
18:17:55 <sbp> Bernard Ramm says, "We use the word 'literal' in its dictionary sense"
18:18:00 <sbp> that would be... its literal sense?
18:18:07 <bancus> The saviour has already come and gone; you can stop killing each other for his return. Be groovy and live in peace, yeah?
18:18:14 <nsh> the multiple possible appreciations of the meaning are not necessarily antithetical
18:18:18 <clsn> Well, viewed as a story, that's reasonable. And in that case it's the storytellers that are allowing the masses to believe mistaken things.
18:18:29 * nsh nods
18:18:43 <bancus> If it weren't for their objection to homosexuality, I might be interested in Baha'i.
18:18:56 <bancus> Also I think they disdain drinking.
18:18:59 <clsn> But if you consider it literally, that a person said that to a group of random people, then you can only conclude that such a person was interested in deliberately misleading them (or else was wrong).
18:19:02 <nsh> that's the problem with trying to preserve by structuralisation a dynamic function
18:20:01 * nsh hmms
18:20:42 <sbp> if Christ returned at 16:28 UTC, that'd be kinda cool
18:20:51 <sbp> on... is there a St. Matthew's day?
18:21:04 <nsh> hehe
18:21:11 <nsh> probably somewhere in the canonisphere
18:21:12 <clsn> If it's in the context of a tale, certainly the tellers of the tale might have reasons to make it work on many levels, etc. Even in an actual event it might make sense to say that. But it still amounts to misleading the ordinary grunts, for whatever reason.
18:21:29 <bancus> .g st. mathew's day
18:21:30 <sbp> the ordinary grunts who were literate?
18:21:30 <phenny> bancus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_the_Evangelist
18:21:38 <bancus> .g "st. mathew's day"
18:21:38 <phenny> bancus: http://stthomasseattle.org/calendar.html
18:21:49 <sbp> I wonder if it was part of the oral tradition, or the Q document, or etc.
18:22:10 <clsn> Ordinary grunts being the people in the audience when he verily said it unto them.
18:22:14 <bancus> Does anyone know how I can force my Mac to downmix all audio to mono?
18:22:15 <sbp> ah! Feast 21 September (W), 16 November (E)
18:22:23 <bancus> My left speaker is broken.
18:22:50 <bancus> Oh hell.
18:22:51 <bancus> It's not.
18:22:57 <bancus> I had my balance all the way to the right.
18:22:59 <bancus> What the fuck.
18:23:04 <bancus> Awesome, though.
18:23:08 <bancus> Now I don't have to get it repaired.
18:23:24 <nsh> .ety petard
18:23:24 <phenny> "1598, 'small bomb used to blow in doors and breach walls,' from Fr. pétard (1580), from M.Fr. péter 'break wind,' from O.Fr. pet 'a fart,' from L. peditum, properly neut. pp. of pedere 'to break wind' (in M.L. pettus)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=petard
18:23:30 <nsh> wtf
18:23:33 <bancus> Heh.
18:23:40 <sbp> clsn: he said it only to his disciples apparently
18:23:48 <bancus> My grandpa used to use the phrase "let a pete"
18:23:52 <sbp> one of 'em must've told
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18:24:11 <nsh> bancus, in reference to the anatomical release of gases?
18:24:16 <bancus> Yeah.
18:24:19 <nsh> sweet
18:24:23 <bancus> He'd say "Whoops, I let a pete."
18:24:33 <bancus> Where pete is pronounced pe-TAY.
18:24:40 <nsh> ah, right, was just about to ask
18:24:44 * sbp reads the beginning of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_9
18:24:56 <bancus> Quebecois-American
18:24:59 *** lordi (n=hannes@sedanet0.sedan.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE) has joined #swhack
18:25:02 <nsh> cool
18:25:04 <sbp> it looks like the Transfiguration is given as the usual explanation
18:25:04 <bancus> From Southern Illinois.
18:25:16 <clsn> sbp: in which case it couldn't have been "one who was here today" unless the Wandering Jew was one of the disciples too.
18:25:46 * nsh vaguely remembers the wandering jew story metamorphising from the roman solider who lanced jesus on the cross
18:26:08 <nsh> or there being some nontrivial connection therebetween at any rate
18:26:10 <clsn> Probably had several origins, yeah.
18:26:36 <sbp> clsn: well it could if he was referring to the Transfiguration
18:27:09 <clsn> Which is that some/all of the disciples didn't "die" but were transported to heaven or something? Hence they didn't taste death?
18:27:13 <clsn> Just making sure.
18:27:28 <sbp> nope
18:27:29 <sbp> [[[
18:27:29 <sbp> The Transfiguration of Jesus is an event reported by the Synoptic Gospels in which Jesus was transfigured upon a mountain (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36). Jesus becomes radiant, speaks with Moses and Elijah, and is called "Son" by God.
18:27:35 <sbp> The transfiguration put Jesus on par with the two preeminent figures of Judaism: Moses and Elijah. It also supports his identity as the Son of God. In keeping with the Messianic secret, Jesus tells the witnesses (Peter, James and John) not to tell others what they saw.
18:27:36 <Monty> acrobat won't let me cos I'd bought a scenario?
18:27:41 <sbp> ]]] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus
18:27:44 <sbp> bad Monty
18:27:46 <Monty> salacious dtm's Judge Judy.
18:28:02 <nsh> Monty, *you're* salacious
18:28:03 <clsn> Oh..... so it isn't referring to the Second Coming, but something that happened there.
18:28:06 <Monty> Even if that's why do dvi. So commit and pickup a major author of help I even
18:28:15 <sbp> clsn: that appears to be the most commonly given explanation
18:28:30 <sbp> clsn: but see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism for a conflicting view
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18:29:24 <clsn> Fair enough. Then it's "our" own fault if we insist on thinking it refers to the Second Coming. There's room to argue about how misleading that is, but yeah.
18:29:47 <sbp> to really settle it, you'd need to go back to the connotations of the words in the original and blah blah, I suppose
18:30:14 <clsn> Hmm. If he told them not to tell people about it, it looks like someone really screwed that up.
18:30:30 <nsh> i think
18:30:32 <sbp> he actually said not to tell anybody until he had risen from the dead, I think
18:30:34 <nsh> it's pretty obvious
18:30:52 <clsn> worse than connotations, there's pragmatics to deal with blah blah blah. It isn't reasonable to pin that down from just a reading.
18:30:53 <nsh> that a shitlot got screwed up in the development of the christian church, from the view point of its originator
18:30:59 <sbp> clsn: “On the way down Jesus tells them to keep what had happened to themselves until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. They are confused as to what he means but do not ask him to clarify himself.” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_9
18:31:15 <clsn> Like today, the 5th anniversary of the infamous "Mission Accomplished" photo-op.
18:31:46 <sbp> the mentality of the time was really different
18:31:57 <clsn> The White House is admitting that maybe they were a touch hasty in all that, and yet at the same time they're saying that the "Mission Accomplished" banner actually was supposed to refer to *that battleship's mission* which was finished, and it was on the way home.
18:32:14 <sbp> it's interesting that Christianity should have flourished but, say, Manicheanism didn't
18:32:44 <clsn> nsh: no argument on that score (that later Christianity is way screwy compared to its originator's ideas)
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18:33:10 * nsh nods
18:33:12 <sbp> clsn: ooh, check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winged_word
18:33:37 <clsn> I sometimes wonder about that too. Tho part of that is my inherent bias against Christianity; I think I have a harder time with it than with others.
18:34:17 <sbp> the history of Early Christianity, up to like the start of the 3rd century, is really interesting
18:34:22 <sbp> difficult though
18:34:27 <nsh> there are lots of things that don't piss me off solely due to the fact that i've not had to spend any length of time dealing with them
18:34:47 <nsh> sbp, cool article mang
18:35:25 <sbp> this still bugs me, as an amateur:
18:35:26 <sbp> 17:07:19 <sbp> so if the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke depend on the Gospel of Mark and the Q document...
18:35:26 <sbp> 17:07:37 <sbp> and if the Gospel of Mark was a major new literary mode (the gospel)
18:35:26 <sbp> 17:07:46 <sbp> whence the non-synoptic Gospel of John?
18:35:26 <sbp> 17:08:10 <sbp> and how does the Egerton Gospel fit with the Johannine tradition?
18:35:31 <sbp> - http://swhack.com/logs/2008-03-28#T17-07-19
18:36:51 <clsn> I thought John was written significantly later.
18:37:12 <clsn> But I don't know that much about the history and the details and I don't even know what an Egerton Gospel is, so I don't know what I'm talking about.
18:37:27 <nsh> .ety strafe
18:37:27 <phenny> "1915, 'punish, attack,' picked up by British soldiers from Ger. strafen 'to punish' (from P.Gmc. *stræf-), in slogan Gott strafe England 'May God punish England,' current in Germany c.1914-16 at the start of World War I." - http://etymonline.com/?term=strafe
18:39:15 <sbp> clsn: it was only written a decade or two later, I think; but the point is that it doesn't seem to depend on the synoptic gospels at all, so the compositor of John was presumably unaware of them (for him to have not used material from them at all, whereas the compositor of Matthew and Luke had no such qualms)
18:39:55 <sbp> so I don't quite understand that, and I'm not sure anybody else does either
18:40:02 <sbp> it may be one of those things we just won't ever know
18:40:03 <Monty> <div><h2 /><div class="content"></div></div>
18:41:05 <sbp> another weird thing is that all of the early patriarchs seem to have not left an historical record
18:41:19 <sbp> St. Paul never saw Christ, the writers of the Gospels weren't apostles, etc.
18:41:37 <sbp> there's this missing period of a few decades which must have been an oral tradition
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18:41:46 <sbp> hence the Q document and the Gospel of Thomas
18:41:54 <sbp> though the Thomasine tradition is itself very interesting
18:42:17 <sbp> shame that so much of the documentation that may have existed in India was lost
18:42:58 <clsn> Maybe the compositor of John was just a lot more original a writer.
18:43:28 <sbp> well that's where the bit about the Egerton Gospel comes in
18:43:39 <clsn> OK! I think the pyBlazon pages are all appropriately updated and linked to the googlecode repository and everything
18:43:59 <sbp> the Egerton Gospel is a variant gospel that sounds a lot like the Gospel of John but isn't. so it appears to be a separate document from a Johannine tradition
18:44:22 <clsn> Oh ok.
18:44:48 <sbp> so if there was a tradition... was it based on some common predecessor of the Gospel of Mark that then split off and mutated and sucked in other sources, for example?
18:44:49 <nsh> .gs misbeggoten *
18:44:50 <phenny> misbeggoten *: war (2), sounds (2), man (2), and (2)
18:44:51 <sbp> lots of possibilities
18:44:56 <sbp> but not much evidence
18:45:48 <clsn> .gs misbegotten *
18:45:49 <phenny> misbegotten *: swoosie (4), oath (4), notions (4), tickets (3), son (3), prognostications (3), orlagh (3), vox balaenae (2), vegetables (2), starring (2)
18:45:58 * clsn nods.... I see what you mean.
18:46:21 <sbp> also the Gospel of Thomas is very interesting because a lot of its quotes are in a more rudimentary phrasing, so that it seems to be a more original text that what we find in the other gospels
18:46:26 <sbp> but we don't know the date
18:46:39 <sbp> so it may be later. nothing to rule it out as being early, though, too
18:47:15 <sbp> I think I read that there's some evidence to suggest that the Johannine tradition was refuting something of the Thomasine tradition, so there may have been communication between those two traditions, if that's an accurate way to characterise it
18:47:28 <sbp> which might give a pointer to how this stuff all spread
18:47:43 <sbp> but it's also interesting because it's a saying gospel, of the kind that Q is supposed to be
18:47:52 <clsn> Right, I heard of Thomas.
18:48:08 <sbp> (Q is the hypothetical source document for Matthew and Luke)
18:48:17 <sbp> (er, *a* hypothetical source. the other source being Mark)
18:48:19 <clsn> Only insofar that the teacher in high school noted that there existed this gospel of Thomas which demonstrated that a book like Q could exist.
18:48:25 <sbp> aye
18:48:38 <sbp> or it didn't even have to be a book. might've been oral
18:48:43 <clsn> Right, I remember this from the bit we did on Christianity in my high school. Which wasn't very much mind you.
18:48:54 <clsn> Yeah. A *source* of speeches.
18:49:05 <sbp> sounds much more historically interesting than what I learned, at least
18:49:17 <sbp> I had to learn all of this later
18:49:27 <sbp> which is probably a good thing, since I could get to do it properly
18:49:55 <laplink> Oh *now* he's citing Thomas.
18:50:01 <sbp> well, more properly than if I'd been sullied by school anyway
18:50:11 <sbp> what do you mean, *now*...
18:50:22 <laplink> `nuffink