00:01:14 <cre8radix> that's funny
00:02:03 <cre8radix> ja: since i did two trax named "maybe not" and "probably yeah"
00:02:16 <cre8radix> peut-être
00:03:31 *** ja has quit ("leaving")
00:05:07 <cre8radix> like i said... NEIN
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00:13:29 <Monty> bah, it's cskaterun again
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00:28:04 <_bjoern> Great: [[[
00:28:04 <_bjoern> Dear Sir or Madam:
00:28:04 <_bjoern>
00:28:04 <_bjoern> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. ...
00:28:04 <_bjoern> ]]]
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00:31:53 <cre8radix> loggy: uri
00:31:53 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-06-19#T00-31-53
00:32:20 <cre8radix> # test 2
00:39:20 <_bjoern> .gc "63072000000"
00:39:21 <phenny> "63072000000": 1,650
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00:43:32 <zachb> _bjoern: did you send that?
00:43:53 <_bjoern> no.
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04:21:19 <_bjoern> .gs good *
04:21:20 <phenny> good *: housekeeping (6), magazine (5), samaritan (4), tilth (3), shepherd (3), parent (3), omens (3), leads (3), is (3), grape (3), governance (3)
04:21:22 <_bjoern> .gs good * to you
04:21:23 <phenny> good * to you: luck (80), morning (9), riddance (2), mroning (2), moleman (2), evening (2), day (2), assistant (2)
04:21:28 <_bjoern> .gs fair * to you
04:21:29 <phenny> fair * to you: play (5), winds (3), warning (3), representation (3), paly (3), offer (3), mean (3), isaac (3), for all personal (3), focks (3), fecks (3), dues (3)
04:21:49 <_bjoern> fair focks to you dudes!
04:24:59 <_bjoern> For debugging I turned off earlier today magix that bypasses sites like google analytics, and then turned on script debugging in my browser, now every other web site prompts me to debug the google analytics script, calling split where it should not.
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04:49:26 <_bjoern> hmm #9BAFB4
05:09:04 <_bjoern> .gc "Dear Aversary"
05:09:05 <phenny> "Dear Aversary": 0
05:09:11 <_bjoern> .gc "Dear Adversary"
05:09:12 <phenny> "Dear Adversary": 315
05:09:20 <_bjoern> .gc +Aversar
05:09:21 <phenny> +Aversar: 798
05:09:33 <_bjoern> .gc +aversa
05:09:33 <phenny> +aversa: 2,230,000
05:09:45 <_bjoern> .wik aversa
05:09:47 <phenny> "Aversa is a town in the Campania region of southern Italy, about 15 kilometres north of Naples." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversa
05:09:57 <_bjoern> groovy scenderlessness.
05:10:12 <_bjoern> "AVERSA is one of Estern Europe's leading manufacturers of centrifugal pumps." in .ro.
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05:15:59 <Monty> welcome, ja
05:22:47 <_bjoern> Okay, I just spent four minutes trying to draw some text in OO Draw.
05:22:50 <_bjoern> I could not find a text tool.
05:23:00 <_bjoern> Tried to activate all sorts of menus and such.
05:23:04 <_bjoern> To no avail.
05:23:17 <_bjoern> Now that I give up I see there is a toolbar *at the bottom*
05:23:20 <_bjoern> How insane is that!
05:25:00 <_bjoern> Okay done now. Had some difficulty because it would exit the "enter text mode"
05:25:14 <_bjoern> every time I activated the text tool and clicked on the page.
05:26:10 <_bjoern> I shall be bold now and try to color the text.
05:27:44 <_bjoern> format / character / font effects / color is grayed out ...
05:27:57 <_bjoern> ... i was gonna say, but apparently *that* color field is for underlines.
05:28:08 <_bjoern> There is another one way below "font color"
05:28:59 <_bjoern> the export function does not remember where I saved my file last time this session :(
05:49:37 <thelsdj> _bjoern: that is a weird place for the toolbar
05:50:16 <_bjoern> don't blame me, it seems to ship that way!
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06:05:37 <_bjoern> Okay, after LOTS of work I have a half-way decent latex letter layout for myself.
06:05:54 <_bjoern> Why oh why does everything have to be so ugly by default?
06:06:38 <ja> maybe using latex is the problem?
06:06:53 <_bjoern> word is much worse!
06:06:53 <ja> css is pretty slick for making stuff pretty (or exactly how you want it) once you understand it
06:07:07 <ja> plus, the other 99.9% of the world can render CSS+html :P
06:07:26 <ja> nothing is uglier than PS exported from PS rendered via some botched conversion in xpdf/gv/evince
06:07:53 <ja> i'd take windows XP with cleartype turned off and 10 point tahoma on a 640x480 screen before that
06:08:05 <_bjoern> Sending usb sticks in snail mail is kinda uncool though
06:08:15 <ja> send micro-SD
06:08:17 <ja> or whatever it is
06:08:24 <ja> or the USB one woo a dongle
06:08:35 <ja> its just the inner plug part.. on a single pcb w/ the memory
06:08:57 <ja> how do you know the NSA isnt opening your mail and cloning your private keys?
06:09:03 <ja> ive resorted ot personal handoffs
06:09:20 <_bjoern> a snail mail letter "Go to http://example.org/letters/addressee/2008-06-19/. Thanks."
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06:09:41 <ja> i put the stamp on teh wrong side
06:09:43 <ja> at hte post office
06:09:47 <ja> i had to walk around spying people in line
06:09:49 <ja> to see what side it goes on
06:09:56 <ja> i felt like such a crackhead
06:09:59 <_bjoern> cloning my private pgp key would be quite a feat
06:10:01 <ja> luckily it peeled off
06:10:01 <Monty> NEVAR
06:10:15 <_bjoern> I don't know where I put it myself, most likely it's on a demaged encrypted disk somewhere.
06:10:37 <_bjoern> Nobody ever sent encrypted mail to me, other than for testing.
06:34:16 <sbp> yo
06:34:33 <_bjoern> &sbp;
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06:39:18 <xover> <_bjoern>:Line 0, Column 0: character "&" is the first character of a delimiter but occurred as data.
06:39:56 <_bjoern> Pity I can't /nick !DOCTYPE
06:40:17 <_bjoern> <![XOVER[ yo ]]>
06:42:16 <xover> Hmm. Google Maps can overlay links to Wikipedia articles on each place/city?
06:43:43 <sbp> &me;
06:44:10 <sbp> hellos and beschnizzles
06:44:45 <_bjoern> Yet it can't overlay a simple km ruler.
06:44:55 <sbp> ha, yeah
06:45:08 <sbp> SWHACK FEATURE REQUEST
06:45:42 <_bjoern> I mean, you know, who would want to know the distance between things. Using a map app. That just never happens.
06:46:01 <_bjoern> throw new WTFWGException(ENOUSECASES);
06:50:10 <_bjoern> "We guarantee to store it unless the browser crashes" ... or freezes, or does one of the other things browsers do every day?
06:58:44 <_bjoern> I'd like to see usage statistics of switch statements listing how many programs actually make use of the fall-through semantics (where there is more than white space between two cases).
07:05:49 <xover> Ugh. And Google Earth seems to really suck at helping me document my plight when I want to bitch about the miles covered this last week.
07:06:22 <_bjoern> I wouldn't even dream about marking a whole path on google maps...
07:13:42 <thelsdj> _bjoern: re: switch fallthrough, yea in anything other than C its probably a bug
07:25:24 <_bjoern> Yesterday I noticed for some reason my firefox has some Windows Presentation Foundation 3.5 Plug-In installed.
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07:25:38 <Monty> hi idickinson, how ya doing?
07:25:50 <_bjoern> Apparently it can be used to run xbap thingies in Firefox, but there is next to nothing on the web about it.
07:26:09 <_bjoern> At least I could not find anything using the exact name / description of the plugin, other than forum posts.
07:26:56 <_bjoern> "At an event today on Microsoft's campus, Ian Ellison-Tayler, the WPF Product Unit Manager mentioned that XBAP support is coming to Mozilla Firefox as part of the .NET Framework 3.5 update that will ship with Visual Studio "Orcas"."
07:27:58 <_bjoern> I wonder whether it can run xaml files directly then?
07:29:20 <_bjoern> http://www.hanselman.com/blog/FirefoxWPFAndXBAP.aspx has a screenshot
07:33:15 <_bjoern> Oh I get why the google analytics script fails
07:33:21 <_bjoern> it's because I've turned off cookies there.
07:38:21 <_bjoern> .gc "urn:mpeg:mpeg21:2003:01-REL-R-NS"
07:38:22 <phenny> "urn:mpeg:mpeg21:2003:01-REL-R-NS": 1,670
07:40:50 <_bjoern> .gc "There are many intricacies of CAS stackwalks."
07:40:51 <phenny> "There are many intricacies of CAS stackwalks.": 1
07:41:30 <_bjoern> .gc stackwalks
07:41:30 <phenny> stackwalks: 193
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07:52:36 <_bjoern> This actually works quite nicely in Firefox.
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08:32:58 <sbp> wow, retail sales up by 8%
08:33:09 <sbp> largest rise since 1986
08:33:20 <sbp> (this is a comparison between May 2007 and May 2008)
08:33:33 <sbp> food is the highest boost, clothing also up quite a bit
08:34:13 <sbp> it's so surprising because there's a lot of worry about food and stuff being way too expensive now, and the shops have been generally thought to be really complaining about low sales
08:34:29 <sbp> the economy's pretty strange at the moment
08:37:34 <_bjoern> tent sales are up though http://www.globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/06/tent-city-usa.html
08:38:15 <_bjoern> phenny, "Riksdagen röstade i kväll igenom det nya förslag till en signalspaningslag som försvarsutskottet presenterade i eftermiddag med siffrorna 143 mot 138."?
08:38:16 <phenny> _bjoern: "The Parliament voted this evening through the new proposal for a signalspaningslag as Defence presented this afternoon with the numbers 143 to 138." (sv to en, translate.google.com)
08:39:28 <_bjoern> Perhaps we can add a ipv4 header flag BITTENICHTDURCHSCHWEDENHINDURCHLEITEN?
08:42:16 <_bjoern> it could have a short name like SCHWEDEN VERBOTEN
08:43:58 <sbp> go tent sales!
08:44:08 <sbp> phenny: "BITTENICHTDURCHSCHWEDENHINDURCHLEITEN"?
08:44:09 <phenny> sbp: Language guessing failed, so try suggesting one!
08:44:14 <sbp> phenny: de "BITTENICHTDURCHSCHWEDENHINDURCHLEITEN"?
08:44:15 <phenny> sbp: "BITTENICHTDURCHSCHWEDENHINDURCHLEITEN" (de to en, translate.google.com)
08:44:25 <sbp> WELLDONEFORWINNINGTHEREGOOGLE
08:44:47 <_bjoern> add spaces like so: bitte nicht durch schweden hindurch leiten
08:44:58 <sbp> man, Carrie Gracie's going nuts in this interview with someone about abortion
08:45:11 <sbp> phenny: "bitte nicht durch schweden hindurch leiten"?
08:45:12 <phenny> sbp: "Please do not guided by Sweden through" (de to en, translate.google.com)
08:45:29 <sbp> yeah, I agree. do not guided by Sweden at all, in fact!
08:45:43 <sbp> that's pretty funny
08:45:48 <sbp> could have it on Usenet too
08:45:56 <sbp> X-BITTENICHTDURCHSCHWEDENHINDURCHLEITEN: true
08:46:22 <spb> what the fuck is going on here
08:46:28 <sbp> heh, she didn't even thank her guest. I don't think she liked her
08:46:32 <sbp> spb: love and honey
08:46:32 <Monty> hmm, sounds interesting, if that I'm so then goes BSOD
08:46:51 <_bjoern> excellent idea, despite Usenet becoming increasingly Usenot if posting stats are in any way accurate.
08:47:44 <sbp> well at this rate there will be negative users
08:47:44 <sbp> the post-apocalyptic cockroaches, perhaps?
08:47:44 <sbp> so you might be able to use the figures to predict the apocalypse
08:48:54 <_bjoern> When trying to predict the apocalypse I usually end up all I FOUND THE CURE FOR HOPE
08:49:02 <_bjoern> as the tentative date is too far in the future.
08:53:36 <_bjoern> court ordered denic (.de admin) to let Volkswagen have vw.de
08:53:47 <_bjoern> normally, by policy, they don't register two letter domains
08:54:16 <_bjoern> .head http://ix.de
08:54:18 <phenny> _bjoern: 301, text/html, iso-8859-1
08:54:26 <_bjoern> is the only example I know of...
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08:57:57 <sbp> you should ask them to give you de
08:58:01 <sbp> like, bj@de
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08:58:59 <_bjoern> That's actually the main reason why they don't assign two letter ones, cf. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1535.txt
09:02:17 <_bjoern> .title http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-me-cheaters18-2008jun18,0,1317744.story
09:02:18 <phenny> _bjoern: Teens face felony charges of computer break-ins, grade changes at Tesoro High School - Los Angeles Times
09:02:53 <_bjoern> proactive kids for the lose?
09:06:43 <sbp> they can't take the paradigms
09:07:05 <_bjoern> http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1434&category=Environment
09:07:15 <sbp> .title
09:07:17 <phenny> sbp: Earthfiles.com Environment | 2008 Barbury Castle Pattern is Pi to 3.14159265358
09:07:20 <_bjoern> (-> http://www.lucypringle.co.uk/photos/2008/jun.shtml)
09:09:24 <sbp> crop circles are teh funs
09:09:46 <melbel> to create or simply look at?
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09:10:04 <_bjoern> don't answer, it's a trick question!
09:10:33 <_bjoern> Now that you know, do answer, so as to raise no suspicion
09:10:45 <_bjoern> You might use the opportunity to cause some confusion.
09:11:11 <sbp> melbel: purple!
09:11:18 <sbp> _bjoern: how'd I do?
09:11:42 <_bjoern> sbp(mang great, but I should have written sekret msg :::((( )
09:11:43 <melbel> Purple!
09:12:07 <sbp> _bjoern(cast a lvl 8 retrospective secrecy on the lines!)
09:12:52 * _bjoern casts a lvl 9 FOG OF WAR spell
09:13:44 <melbel> you guys are crazy :]
09:14:17 <_bjoern> Actually we are just professional actors playing crazy people in our spare time.
09:15:00 <melbel> ummm sure
09:15:28 <sbp> well what else do you expect that professional actors would do in their spare time?
09:15:33 <sbp> it's not like we're good at anything else
09:15:43 <sbp> we can't take up painting or run for government office
09:15:58 <melbel> o.O
09:16:26 <_bjoern> We lack the austrian accent for the latter.
09:16:32 <sbp> ja
09:17:43 <_bjoern> .gc "Commercial Applications Research for Extraterrestrial Technology"
09:17:44 <phenny> "Commercial Applications Research for Extraterrestrial Technology": 156
09:17:54 <sbp> loeols
09:18:09 <_bjoern> (they are featured in http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1434&category=Environment)
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09:19:37 <sbp> “There are a total of 10 jumps (in 2008 Barbury Castle barley formation). So, I had to look up the value of Pi up to twelve digits, which is 3.14159265358.”
09:19:43 <sbp> pfft, even I've memorised it up to 20
09:19:46 <sbp> used to know it to 50
09:20:05 <_bjoern> I can "3.141592"
09:24:09 *** cre8radix (n=cre8radi@p54BE670C.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #swhack
09:38:11 <cre8radix> moin
09:44:32 <melbel> moin, cre8radix
10:02:06 <cre8radix> hey melbel
10:06:27 <melbel> g'night
10:07:01 * _bjoern tired too
10:07:26 <cre8radix> well
10:07:33 <cre8radix> sweet dreams then...
10:07:44 <_bjoern> Oh I wish!
10:07:51 <cre8radix> melbel, _bjoern
10:08:05 <cre8radix> _bjoern: gotta work?
10:09:02 <cre8radix> http://cre8radix.net/audio/radio_sickurity.mp3
10:09:33 <_bjoern> well, kinda, yeah
10:09:40 <cre8radix> hrhr
10:09:43 * cre8radix too
10:09:47 <cre8radix> BUT
10:09:58 <cre8radix> i is done with ye olde audioplay
10:09:58 <_bjoern> BUT you haven't been up for 20 hours already?
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10:14:41 <cre8radix> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Erste-kritische-Sicherheitsluecke-in-Firefox-3--/meldung/109676
10:15:04 <cre8radix> http://dvlabs.tippingpoint.com/blog/2008/06/18/vulnerability-in-mozilla-firefox-30
10:21:15 <_bjoern> http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/493387
10:25:13 <_bjoern> hmm new optipng version
10:32:10 <_bjoern> [[[
10:32:19 <_bjoern> We can't provide service under the Gmail name in Germany; we're called Google Mail here instead.
10:32:19 <_bjoern> If you're traveling in Germany, you can access your mail at http://mail.google.com.
10:32:19 <_bjoern> Oh, and we'd like to link the URL above, but we're not allowed to do that either. Bummer.
10:32:19 <_bjoern> For general information about Google, please visit www.google.com or www.google.de.
10:32:33 <_bjoern> ]]] - www.gmail.com
10:33:17 <_bjoern> OMG reddit becomes OSS! I heard about reddit once.
10:34:28 <_bjoern> .title http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gcc.patches/165063
10:34:30 <phenny> _bjoern: Gmane -- Mail To News And Back Again
10:34:52 <_bjoern> hmmm
10:35:06 <_bjoern> <script type="text/javascript">
10:35:06 <_bjoern> document.domain = 'gmane.org';
10:35:06 <_bjoern> document.title = 'gcc in cxx branch created';
10:35:06 <_bjoern> </script>
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10:36:11 <_bjoern> apparently there is a Spore penis monster contest.
10:37:37 <nslater> if you search youtube, there are hundreds of videos of spore peni
10:37:42 <nslater> also, spore goatse
10:37:54 <_bjoern> how do you know these things?
10:37:59 <nslater> reddit.com
10:39:33 <_bjoern> I was just talking about that.
10:39:42 <_bjoern> Perhaps that's why you say that.
10:39:45 <nslater> about what?
10:39:47 <nslater> what were they thinking: http://www2.kelloggs.com/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?product=8213
10:40:20 <_bjoern> You just said a single \w+, what else might I be referring to!
10:40:40 <nslater> you can be pretty cryptic sometimes
10:40:52 <nslater> <_bjoern> OMG reddit becomes OSS! I heard about reddit once.
10:41:09 <nslater> yeah, we had a big talk about that yesterday in here, looks like it's not really OSS
10:41:13 <nslater> but then again, IANAL
10:41:15 <_bjoern> It's my favourite artform.
10:52:45 <sbp> U ANAL
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10:53:34 <_bjoern> U R I
10:53:36 <nslater> ν
10:54:00 <nslater> r/e reddit licence, i found that the fsf approve it as free software, it's called the CPAL
10:54:22 <nslater> ... so I fired off a quick email, asking them "omg, r u sure about dis"
10:54:22 <sbp> well of course, the FSF approve anything
10:54:28 <sbp> they approved the GPL and that's non-free
10:54:39 <nslater> troll troll troll
10:54:52 <sbp> nah, I still don't really see the difference between the two points really
10:54:52 <_bjoern> You have to practise trolling more nslater
10:54:58 <sbp> the GPL is non free and you've got to include it
10:54:59 <_bjoern> You are insufficiently subtle about it
10:55:09 <sbp> so you hoisted it on your own petard
10:55:15 <nslater> _bjoern: you think im trolling?
10:55:44 <nslater> sbp: you dont have to include the gpl
10:55:45 <_bjoern> You said you are.
10:55:52 <sbp> yes you do, it says in the GPL itself
10:55:53 <_bjoern> I believe everything you say.
10:55:54 <nslater> no, i was saying sbp was
10:55:57 <sbp> you have to include a copy of it
10:56:02 <_bjoern> nuwerent
10:56:17 * sbp went through this with AaronSw yonks ago
10:56:35 <_bjoern> It doesn't say you have to include a copy.
10:56:37 <nslater> but it's a legal document! how can you licence something with a legal document that lets other people modify the legal document, that makes it totally and utterly pointless
10:56:40 <_bjoern> Not in my copy anyway.
10:56:41 <nslater> you're being absurd
10:57:35 <nslater> you asking for me to (hypothetically) licence something to you under conditions and terms that you are free to change at your whim, if you cant see the absurdity in that, YOU'RE CLEARLY BONKERS!
10:58:06 <_bjoern> n5h: bonker nslater
10:58:07 <n5h> i follow, but go ahead. nice. maybe we shouldn't mess with it, so you could do with this interesting quote: .
10:58:25 <sbp> I hate you people, you make me read the damn GPL
10:58:28 <sbp> “You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you [...] give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License along with the Program.”
10:58:29 <sbp> there
10:58:30 <nslater> lol
10:58:36 <nslater> yes
10:58:43 <sbp> so you have to include a non-free work
10:58:51 <sbp> which means that the license is non-free
10:58:53 <nslater> yes, because it's the licence that grants you the freedoms
10:58:56 <nslater> no it doesnt
10:59:09 <_bjoern> I agree with sbp (as always).
10:59:11 <_bjoern> You lose.
10:59:15 <sbp> yes it does. so what if the license grants you the freedoms? it's still non free!
10:59:23 <nslater> again, you're asking for the legal document, and hence the terms under which the software was distributed to you, to be modifyable
10:59:25 <sbp> you can't make exceptions because rms is spechiul
10:59:26 <nslater> which is absurd
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10:59:47 <sbp> everything must be free but not the GPL, it basically sounds like
10:59:57 <sbp> no, many licenses are in the public domain
11:00:05 <sbp> the BSD and MIT licenses are in the public domain, I think
11:00:06 <nslater> are you trolling or are you making a serious point?
11:00:12 <sbp> I'm making a serious point
11:00:20 <nslater> okay, well, seperate out the two types of licence
11:00:24 <nslater> copyleft and non-copyleft
11:00:34 <nslater> the non-copyleft ones, like the WTFPL, sure, modify it how you like
11:00:50 <nslater> but for copyleft to work, the licence HAS TO BE non-modifyable
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11:00:56 <nslater> otherwise it wouldnt work
11:01:01 <sbp> yeah. so all copyleft licenses are non-free
11:01:17 *** cre8radix|off is now known as cre8radix
11:01:18 <sbp> in and of themselves, I mean
11:01:26 <nslater> well, licences aren't really software, and "free" is only about software
11:01:29 <nslater> so i would still disagree
11:01:31 <sbp> and they're non-free in doctrine if they require that you distribute them in works released under them
11:01:40 <nslater> no
11:01:47 <sbp> free is only about software? really? what about all the fuss over documentation in ubuntu?
11:01:49 <nslater> free software is about the freedom of software, not the freedom of liences
11:01:56 <nslater> thats free documentation
11:02:00 <nslater> something different
11:02:15 <sbp> okay, well if you're right then the CPAL is a free software license
11:02:22 <sbp> because the image that it requires isn't software
11:02:25 <nslater> freedom means different thigns for different things
11:02:35 <nslater> i think you're trolling and i dont have the patience :(
11:02:49 <sbp> I'm not trolling. you've got a whacking great big inconsistency here!
11:03:00 <sbp> I fully agreed with you until procto pointed out the great big hole in your logic
11:03:12 <sbp> and when I thought about it, I figured that yeah, he's right
11:03:19 <sbp> and nothing you've said so far has convinced me to the contrary
11:03:30 <nslater> okay
11:03:38 <nslater> (grr, i hate you for pulling me back in)
11:03:41 <sbp> hehe
11:03:50 <sbp> well it doesn't matter, I hate all licensing anyway :-)
11:04:05 <sbp> so feel free to palm me the jolly palm of Ginsparg's Law
11:04:20 <sbp> but if you could convince me, that would be interesting, because procto's point seemed pretty damn good
11:04:28 <_bjoern> I could convince you.
11:04:31 <sbp> DO IT
11:04:38 <_bjoern> Where is the fun in that!
11:04:42 <sbp> true
11:06:11 <sbp> nslater: it may just come down to a point of philosophy. because I mean copyleft is basically going "all must be free, but to ensure this, we have to make the doctrine of freedom non free!". it's the most paradoxical act that they could have made really... it's like you come up with this grand rule, but the only way to make it work is by breaking it on itself
11:07:32 <nslater> the FSF's Free Software Definition and the GNU General Public Licence were designed to protect users freedoms when using software (and these days, the FSF is to a larger extent about Free Culture in general, though that is somewhat seperate) - so, the GPL's main goal is to ensure the freedoms of the users of X software, and to do that (if you subscribe to the copyleft model of licencing) it is important to make sure that subsiquent re-distributions ...
11:07:36 <sbp> but you have to be careful with things like that, because it's like the American govt. saying "to bring peace to our nation, we must suspend habeas corpus"; to bring peace and therefore freedom we have to wage war on liberty itself!
11:07:38 <nslater> ... are provided to users with the same freedoms. If Joe comes along and takes software X and strips out a bunch of freedoms granted by the licence and then redistributes it on joes-softwarez.com then clearly the users of his software are loosing out, they dont have the same freedoms as he did when he recieved the software. So, one of the most important things the GPL does is say "here, you can have THESE freedoms, but in exchange you MUST pass ...
11:07:44 <nslater> ... these on to other users) - that this requires some sacrifice in the "flexibility" (often misleadingly called freedom (talking about the freedom to remove freedoms from a licence is patently absurd)) is a sacrifice that many people are willing to make
11:07:54 <sbp> woah. suparline
11:08:04 <nslater> no it's not like that at all, it's like the Social Contact
11:08:08 <nslater> .wik Social Contract
11:08:09 <phenny> "The term social contract describes a broad class of philosophical theories whose subjects are implied agreements by which people form nations and maintain a social order." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Contract
11:08:19 <nslater> it's about giving up some freedoms for protection of more important freedoms
11:09:03 <sbp> well not really, because the freedom that it's giving up (modifiability) is one of the four fundamental freedoms that you mentioned the FSF as wanting to uphold
11:09:14 <sbp> and one of the ones that the GPL indeed grants
11:09:30 <nslater> yes, but it is required for that one file to grant the freedoms effectively for the rest of the software
11:09:37 <nslater> see the wikipedia page on Social Contract
11:09:40 <sbp> yeah, but therefore it's a paradox
11:09:59 <sbp> as I say, it boils down to "all must be free, but to ensure this, we have to make the doctrine of freedom non free!"
11:10:04 <nslater> in our society i give up my freedom to rape and murder people in exchange for health care and the police force
11:10:17 <nslater> this is a form of freedom exchance
11:10:21 <sbp> again, you're not exchanging one freedom for another kind of freedom here
11:10:21 <nslater> social contract
11:10:38 <sbp> you're giving up modifiability of the GPL so that the GPL can allow things to be modifiable
11:10:44 <nslater> yes
11:10:48 <nslater> and there is no other way to do it
11:10:53 <nslater> so you're faced with two options:
11:10:54 <sbp> therefore, it boils down to "all must be free, but to ensure this, we have to make the doctrine of freedom non free!"
11:10:59 <nslater> two options:
11:11:12 <nslater> 1) let the licence be modifyable, but then freedoms of the software can be taken
11:11:26 <nslater> 2) let the licence be unmodifyable, ensure the freedoms of the software
11:11:30 <nslater> stupid spelling
11:11:40 <nslater> so
11:11:46 <nslater> ... its not really a paradox
11:11:48 <sbp> well, I thought that wasn't the case actually?
11:11:56 <nslater> it comes down to a value judgment
11:11:59 <sbp> because you can't modify the license that a work is licensed under
11:12:00 <nslater> which do you consider to be more important
11:12:07 <nslater> sure you can, see the WTFPL
11:12:10 <sbp> all the GPL protects against is people making GPL variants
11:12:12 <nslater> in fact, see any of them
11:12:23 <sbp> well the WTFPL allows literally anything
11:12:27 <sbp> but say you used the CDL
11:12:37 <sbp> but it has a clause saying "this license is public domain"
11:12:48 <sbp> that doesn't mean you can relicense the work under the BSD license
11:13:01 <sbp> it just means that you can make a license which is like the CDL but with whatever changes you like to it
11:13:06 <nslater> so you're arguing that the the gpl's copyright serves no purpose?
11:13:07 <sbp> and then release work under that
11:13:19 <sbp> not that it serves a purpose, just that it is hypocritical
11:13:25 <nslater> what purpose does it serve?
11:13:25 <sbp> er, not that it serves no purpose
11:13:59 <sbp> well I've not heard a very good defence, but as I understood it they were trying to protect against people making slight perversions of it and therefore duping people into using a non-free license
11:14:44 <nslater> aha
11:14:45 <sbp> which is hypocritical because works under the GPL aren't protected against small pejorative modifications. I can download Python and add an os.unlink('/') in the sys module when it imports and redistribute it
11:14:52 <sbp> and yet the GPL itself is
11:15:00 <nslater> actually, it's not hypocritcal, if you will bare with me one moment
11:15:19 <nslater> the FSF's free software definition is very, very specifically only about software
11:15:25 <sbp> well note that even if this was essential for maintaining freedom, it'd be a very contentious point; but that it's not is even worse!
11:15:34 <nslater> when RMS talks about freedom, he is very, very specifically talking about software
11:15:36 <sbp> okay. so is an image software?
11:15:46 <nslater> hang on, reading backscroll
11:16:02 <nslater> let me get to my point :)
11:16:13 <sbp> because if only software ought to be free, under the FSF's doctrine, then the CPAL is surely a permissible license
11:16:26 <sbp> because the only non-free inclusion is of the image
11:16:41 <sbp> (which is not a part of the software. it's not code, and the software still works without it)
11:16:51 <nslater> the FSF and by extension RMS also talk about free documentation, as a totally seperate matter - and in fact, if you press them about free other-thing they will likely tell you that it is not the same as software and documentation and that the issues were different
11:17:20 <sbp> okay. so the contention is that including a non-free image is bad, but including a non-free document is okay?
11:17:48 <nslater> in fact, i was at a talk with RMS when members of the audience were asking similar questions, like "i think this should be free" and RMS was shooting them down explaining how different it was to software
11:18:02 <nslater> who said including a non-free document was okay?
11:18:05 <nslater> oh, the licence
11:18:15 <sbp> yes
11:18:39 <nslater> well, i really dont know, i dont represent the fsf and the fsf seem to have aproved the CPAL as a free software licence, so maybe they dont see a problem with it
11:18:48 <nslater> from my own _personal_ perspective i see a difference
11:19:02 <sbp> right, but what is that difference?
11:19:05 <nslater> documents should be free, but a licence used to provide the freedom is exempt from that
11:19:35 <nslater> but hang on
11:19:37 <nslater> ... gah
11:19:50 <nslater> i found something ive been meaing to paste for the last 10 minutes
11:19:53 <nslater> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#ModifyGPL
11:19:54 <nslater> [[[
11:19:55 <sbp> hehe
11:20:02 <nslater> Can I modify the GPL and make a modified license? You can use the GPL terms (possibly modified) in another license provided that you call your license by another name and do not include the GPL preamble, and provided you modify the instructions-for-use at the end enough to make it clearly different in wording and not mention GNU (though the actual procedure you describe may be similar).
11:20:09 <nslater> If you want to use our preamble in a modified license, please write to <licensing@gnu.org> for permission. For this purpose we would want to check the actual license requirements to see if we approve of them.
11:20:13 <nslater> Although we will not raise legal objections to your making a modified license in this way, we hope you will think twice and not do it. Such a modified license is almost certainly incompatible with the GNU GPL, and that incompatibility blocks useful combinations of modules. The mere proliferation of different free software licenses is a burden in and of itself.
11:20:18 <nslater> ]]]
11:20:43 <nslater> seems fair enough, if you ask me
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11:20:47 <sbp> alright, but that's still not a simple "you may modify this document"
11:20:53 <nslater> no
11:21:02 <sbp> but we're past that point anyway, it seems
11:21:15 <nslater> i also feel like you've backed me into a corner i didnt want to be in
11:21:17 <sbp> because of the contention that documentation isn't subject to the same types of freedom as code
11:21:24 <sbp> well, it was procto's argument
11:21:33 <sbp> as I say, I agreed with you until he raised it
11:21:39 <sbp> and now I want to understand it
11:21:55 <sbp> I couldn't shake it off; it made and still makes sense to me
11:21:55 <Monty> Nobody ever sent encrypted disk somewhere.
11:21:57 <sbp> but I think that this:
11:22:04 <sbp> <nslater> documents should be free, but a licence used to provide the freedom is exempt from that
11:22:10 <nslater> ive been trying to argue the case why the gpl's "non-free"ness isn't SO bad but at the same time, if I were to make a licence i would make it free
11:22:15 <sbp> best answers it so far now that I have all the context of this discussion
11:22:16 <nslater> ... in fact, i DID make a licence, and it IS free
11:22:17 <nslater> http://bytesexual.org/licence
11:22:37 <sbp> mmm... saurce
11:23:15 <nslater> which is why i feel a little flustered that the discussion has ended up here, ive been tricked into defending something i dont really agree with, but also dont really see that much of a problem with :)
11:23:41 <sbp> well it does seem an odd thing, to me, to adhere to
11:23:52 <sbp> that documentation should be free... except for licenses
11:24:00 <nslater> well
11:24:00 <nslater> ...
11:24:07 <nslater> http://www.stallman.org/
11:24:09 <sbp> when you could just as easily say that licenses should be free too
11:24:21 <nslater> "Verbatim copying and redistribution of this entire page are permitted provided this notice is preserved."
11:24:24 <sbp> because there's no rationale for why the GPL license should not be free
11:24:26 <nslater> is THAT non-free?
11:24:37 <sbp> you were arguing before that the GPL has to be non-free because that's how it preserves freedoms
11:24:41 <nslater> yes
11:24:42 <nslater> i was wrong
11:24:47 <sbp> but it seems that that isn't the case. that it would be entirely free and would still defend freedoms
11:24:49 <nslater> so, appologise
11:24:49 <_bjoern> ppl, I'm glad there is a /CLEAR feature in my client.
11:24:54 <nslater> ν
11:24:58 * sbp looks at the stallman.org license
11:25:31 <sbp> well, yes, it's non-free if we're using software freedom equivalence on documentation
11:25:38 <sbp> all I'm saying is, you should be *consistent*
11:25:40 <_bjoern> This is a fabulous style and color combination, it makes my eyes bleed. Yours?
11:25:45 <sbp> that licenses don't need to have exemption
11:25:49 <nslater> sbp: no, i disagree "consistent" is misleading
11:26:34 <nslater> in this case, the "copy verbatim" licence is used on work which is considered person opinion
11:26:46 <nslater> .. in that case, i dont think the four software freedoms carry over
11:26:55 <nslater> there are many places that perhaps the four software freedoms dont apply
11:27:04 <nslater> for example, how can you "study how it works"
11:27:04 <sbp> sure, okay. but could that document be distributed in Debian?
11:27:06 <nslater> it's just a html document
11:27:13 <nslater> no
11:27:23 <sbp> yet the GPL could?
11:27:24 <nslater> but thats no big suprise, debian doesnt allow any gnu manuals
11:27:31 <nslater> interesting point
11:28:00 <nslater> very interesting point
11:28:09 <nslater> but
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11:28:28 <nslater> ... when i think about it, there is a part of my brain that is screaming "licences dont count, it's obvious they dont count"
11:28:48 <sbp> I don't think they have to though. imagine the GPL was released under cc-by
11:29:04 <sbp> or even the GFDL, though I don't know what freedoms that gives. I'll assume it's pretty cc-by-ish
11:29:14 <sbp> wouldn't that be cooler?
11:29:27 <sbp> it wouldn't harm any freedom, I think, only give over a more consistent message
11:29:38 <nslater> gfdl is a copyright licence, but allows you to include manditory front cover and back cover texts
11:29:43 <nslater> something that is hotly debated
11:30:05 <sbp> I suppose rather than give freedoms to people, the FSF idea should be to only retain those priviliges that you can fully defend
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11:30:26 <sbp> that's what I'd advocate, if I were a zealot! :-)
11:30:29 <nslater> you lost me
11:30:38 <sbp> unrelated point really, was just musing
11:30:58 <nslater> also, mr troll, it's posible to be a free software supporter without resorting to zealotry
11:31:03 <sbp> hehe
11:31:06 <nslater> (hard, but possble)
11:31:09 <sbp> all swans are white
11:31:10 <spb> then why has noone managed it?
11:31:16 <sbp> all FSFers are zealots
11:31:24 <nslater> hahahaha, hey, hang on now, i try my best
11:31:27 <spb> sbp: racist
11:31:45 <sbp> common induction joke :-)
11:31:52 <nslater> sbp: am I a zealot? :(
11:31:58 <sbp> nslater: there are black swans
11:32:06 <nslater> yup, so?
11:32:08 <sbp> they were discovered in Australia in the Nth century
11:32:17 <sbp> so the idea is that before then, we induced that all swans are right
11:32:31 <sbp> s/right/white/
11:32:49 <sbp> I don't think you're a white swan, no; but I also don't think you're a swan...
11:33:08 <nslater> you're speaking in riddles mr palmer
11:33:13 <sbp> mmm... riddles
11:33:21 <nslater> you dont think im an FSFer?
11:33:27 <sbp> not particularly, no
11:33:32 <sbp> not a common-or-garden one
11:33:41 <nslater> dude, I have the bottable membership card in my wallet
11:33:44 <nslater> bootable
11:33:50 <sbp> you're an ÆSFer in your heart!
11:33:56 <nslater> yes, yes i am <3
11:33:59 <sbp> hehe
11:34:29 <nslater> so, in summary, open saurce LOL
11:34:35 <sbp> pretty much, yeah!
11:34:38 <nslater> heh
11:34:45 <sbp> but all the best conversations have conclusions like that
11:34:50 <nslater> true true
11:35:44 <sbp> --- OTHER PEOPLE MAY TALK NOW ---
11:36:04 <nslater> (except spb)
11:36:08 <sbp> yeah, wtf
11:36:12 <sbp> he already spoke
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11:50:08 <nslater> that americans bastardised aeroplane into airplane says SO much to me
11:53:49 <spb> what annoys me is that they remove the 'and' from pronunciation of large numbers
11:54:06 <sbp> .ety orange
11:54:07 <nslater> yeah, and the phrase "I could care less"
11:54:07 <phenny> "c.1300, from O.Fr. orenge (12c.), from M.L. pomum de orenge, from It. arancia, originally narancia (Venetian naranza), alt. of Arabic naranj, from Pers. narang, from Skt. naranga-s 'orange tree,' of uncertain origin." - http://etymonline.com/?term=orange
11:54:28 <spb> and the bastardisation of 'aeroplane', and 'could of', and 'could care less' when they mean the opposite
11:54:30 <nslater> and also, "herbs" has a motherfucking "H" in it
11:54:33 * nslater breaths
11:54:50 <spb> and the idiotic names for perfectly simple vegetables
11:54:57 <nslater> lol eggplant
11:55:18 <spb> and not knowing what a pint or a gallon are
11:55:39 <nslater> im not sure what a gallon is ether, i would guess at about 6-8 pints
11:55:49 <nslater> .c 1 gallon in pints
11:55:49 <phenny> 1 US gallon = 8 US pints
11:55:53 <nslater> woah
11:56:01 <spb> .c 1 pint in ounces
11:56:02 <phenny> 1 US pint = 16 US fluid ounces
11:56:10 <spb> and there's the fail
11:56:10 <nslater> "US"?
11:56:28 <spb> 20 is not a very difficult number to remember
11:56:34 <nslater> .c 1 UNITED KINGDOM OF FANTASTICALNESS gallon in pints
11:56:34 <phenny> nslater: Sorry, no result.
11:56:38 <nslater> :(
11:57:24 <nslater> also "british english" lol ;)
11:57:25 <spb> .c 1 UK pint in ounces
11:57:26 <phenny> 1 Imperial pint = 19.2152068 US fluid ounces
11:57:32 <spb> .c 1 UK pint in UK ounces
11:57:32 <phenny> 1 Imperial pint = 20 Imperial fluid ounces
11:57:39 <spb> there we go, not so hard was it
11:57:42 <nslater> .c 1 uk gallon in uk pints
11:57:42 <phenny> 1 Imperial gallon = 8 Imperial pints
11:58:40 <nslater> yeah, i know, i understand the need to qualify american stuff with "whatever pints" or whathave you but i dont like having to qualify british stuff
11:59:03 <spb> 'british english' is either redundant or nonsensical
11:59:08 <nslater> both, probably
11:59:21 <_bjoern> .gs download mature *
11:59:22 <phenny> download mature *: porn (7), stuff (3), content (3), women (2), taboo (2), sexe (2), redhead (2), rated (2), kink orgy (2), dvds (2), demos (2), bbw (2), 1video (2)
11:59:27 <spb> yeah
11:59:31 <_bjoern> k
11:59:37 <nslater> download mature women, upgrade your internets today
11:59:39 <spb> england is a part of britain, so it's redundant in that sense
11:59:52 <sbp> nslater: æroplane...
11:59:57 <nslater> actually, no
11:59:58 <sbp> don't bastardise it into aero-!
12:00:06 <nslater> no, it's not æ :)
12:00:09 <spb> but it's nonsensical in that the dialects in use across britain vary wildly
12:00:15 <nslater> let me cite my self
12:00:20 <spb> æroplane
12:00:23 <_bjoern> .gc ængland
12:00:24 <phenny> ængland: 11,300
12:00:26 <sbp> no self-citations. bad acadmeic form!
12:00:31 <nslater> haha
12:00:39 <nslater> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences#Simplification_of_ae_.28.C3.A6.29_and_oe_.28.C5.93.29
12:00:45 <sbp> .gc œngland
12:00:46 <phenny> œngland: 874
12:00:47 <nslater> "There is no reduction of Latin -ae plurals (e.g. larvae); nor where the digraph <ae>/<oe> does not result from the Greek-style ligature: for example, maelstrom, toe. British aeroplane is an instance"
12:01:06 <_bjoern> œ is lousy.
12:01:11 <nslater> ν
12:01:21 <sbp> .ety aeroplane
12:01:22 <phenny> "1866, from Fr. aéroplane (1855), from Gk. aero- 'air' + stem of planer 'to soar' (see plane (1))." - http://etymonline.com/?term=aeroplane
12:01:33 <sbp> from Greek
12:01:44 <nslater> hmm
12:01:52 <nslater> wtf is wikipedia going on about then
12:02:02 <sbp> checking the OED just to make sure
12:02:29 <spb> wikipedia is full of crap
12:03:01 <nslater> s/wikipedia/internets/
12:03:03 <sbp> ah, it used to be spelled aëroplane
12:03:08 <nslater> it's a good a place for crap as any other
12:03:09 <spb> that too
12:04:07 <nslater> so whats the virdict?
12:04:15 <sbp> aëroplane
12:04:20 <nslater> cool
12:04:34 <spb> what was that question mark meant to be
12:04:44 <nslater> hmm?
12:04:45 <sbp> [[[
12:04:46 <sbp> In most words containing the element aer- (chiefly in the combining form aero-, but also in aeri-, aerate, aery, etc.) N.E.D. (1884) gives for the initial element a disyllabic pronunciation ({emac}·{schwa}r-) or ({emac}:{schwa}r-) /{sm}e{shti}{schwa}r-/ or /{smm}e{shti}{schwa}r-/, which is also reflected in the formerly common practice of writing aër- with a diaeresis. Compare also AERIAL adj.
12:04:46 <sbp> ]]]
12:05:13 <nslater> what question mark?
12:05:17 <spb> a?roplane
12:05:29 <nslater> also, i like it when disputes are resolved by both parties being wrong
12:05:34 <sbp> yeah, hehe
12:05:35 <nslater> i didnt see a questionmark
12:05:36 <sbp> .u ë
12:05:48 <spb> nslater: as happens whenever neither party is me, hth
12:05:52 * sbp prods phenny...
12:05:53 <nslater> its an e with a direresis
12:05:56 <spb> ok
12:05:58 <nslater> or whatever
12:05:58 <phenny> U+00EB LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH DIAERESIS (ë)
12:05:59 <sbp> diæresis!
12:06:02 <nslater> spelling LOL
12:06:22 <sbp> spb: better unicode font needed? 咒
12:06:25 <nslater> woah, spb spoke again
12:06:26 <spb> i love the way americans can't seem to get their heads around combinations of vowels
12:06:29 <sbp> or is it an encoding problem?
12:06:30 <nslater> oh
12:06:31 <nslater> wait
12:06:34 <nslater> i see my confusion
12:06:39 <sbp> <- me
12:06:45 <nslater> i was like "omg wtf, sbp asking what the ë was"
12:06:49 <spb> i've been talking for the last fifteen minutes
12:06:52 <sbp> yeah, as if
12:07:23 <nslater> wait
12:07:23 <nslater> ...
12:07:25 <nslater> i just realised
12:07:26 <spb> sbp: it's putty on XP, so probably just shitty font
12:07:31 <sbp> aha
12:07:40 <nslater> ive being mostly having a conversation with spb
12:07:45 <nslater> omg, total fail
12:07:48 <spb> yes, yes you have
12:07:57 <nslater> i didnt even realise you were speaking
12:07:59 <sbp> before I mentioned the aëroplane spelling, yes
12:08:25 <spb> so what does ë show up as for you people
12:08:34 <sbp> it shows up as nothing
12:08:39 <sbp> I see a double space between does and show
12:08:40 <nslater> right, im taking drastic measures
12:08:51 <nslater> spb, im putting you on /ignore - sry d00d, nice knowing you etc
12:09:04 <sbp> now you won't know when he says something funny!
12:09:12 <nslater> hahahahaha, sorry, what? :p
12:09:31 <_bjoern> .gc +ybeb
12:09:33 <phenny> +ybeb: 7,760
12:10:49 <nslater> sbp, let me know if your brother in metathesis says anything noteworthy pls
12:10:53 <sbp> kk
12:10:54 <spb> nslater: pwnt by your own failure
12:11:12 <sbp> spb: should I tell him that? do you think it's noteworthy enough?
12:11:19 <nslater> ha
12:11:35 <spb> sbp: sure
12:11:37 <sbp> it's going to take me a while to get used to
12:11:43 <sbp> okay
12:11:48 <nslater> grr
12:11:54 <nslater> stop making me want to check the logs
12:11:54 <sbp> nslater: he said something, but then he said it was worth telling you, so it's probably not
12:11:56 <spb> we should probably have an spd bot that just relays everything i say with 'nslater: ' prepended
12:12:06 <sbp> spd... oh man
12:12:48 <_bjoern> .wik SPD
12:12:49 <phenny> "The Social Democratic Party of Germany (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands — SPD) is Germany's oldest political party and its largest in terms of membership." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPD
12:13:01 <sbp> PArtei!1
12:13:03 <sbp> .yi
12:13:04 <phenny> Not yet...
12:13:07 <sbp> pfft
12:13:08 <nslater> awe mang
12:13:13 <_bjoern> .pfft
12:13:21 <nslater> ive been waiting for yi for so long
12:13:23 <nslater> keep missin it
12:13:29 *** spd (n=stephen@freenode/developer/exherbo.spb) has joined #swhack
12:13:32 <sbp> I think it's only been yi once when I've used .yi so far
12:13:33 <spd> oh hi
12:13:35 <nslater> oh jeez
12:13:39 <sbp> o hai what up plz
12:13:41 *** _bjoern is now known as bsh
12:13:42 <nslater> IGNORED!
12:13:42 <sbp> welcome to Swhack spd
12:13:50 <spd> thank you sbp
12:13:58 <bsh> tla day
12:14:03 <sbp> yes
12:14:05 <spd> why is nslater being so mean to me
12:14:17 <spd> i've only just joined and he says he's ignoring me :(
12:14:31 <sbp> nslater already has too much love
12:14:36 <sbp> he does not need any further love from you
12:14:42 <sbp> otherwise he will have a love surplus
12:14:49 <bsh> He's a collapsing love black hole, so to speak.
12:14:53 <sbp> which is unfair to all the love starved children in Iowa
12:14:57 <nslater> im not sure i want to know what he other side of this conversation sounds like
12:15:11 <sbp> nslater: probably for the best, yes
12:15:31 <spd> wait, he has love?
12:15:34 <spd> where does that come from
12:15:40 <spd> apart from a 12 year old girl
12:15:46 <sbp> sundry metaphysical orifices
12:15:54 <nslater> heh
12:16:36 <nslater> .ety sundry
12:16:36 <phenny> "O.E. syndrig 'separate, apart, special,' related to sundor 'separately' (see sunder)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=sundry
12:16:48 <nslater> see, i always thought it was related to "sun dry"
12:16:51 <nslater> or "sun dried"
12:17:03 <sbp> yeah, that's the main annoying thing about the word
12:17:07 <sbp> silly accidental connotations
12:17:11 <nslater> folk etymologies ftw
12:17:16 <sbp> perhaps I should start using syndrig
12:17:24 <sbp> but then people will be all "lol wut u say plz"
12:17:27 <nslater> sounds too scaninavian
12:17:35 <sbp> and I will be all "shup foo"
12:17:36 <spb> it's old english
12:17:38 <sbp> and all will be well
12:17:42 <spb> which means anglo-saxon stroke norse
12:18:13 <bsh> lol wut you say plz, it's tla day man
12:18:21 <sbp> spb: you'd have to prove its further etymology for me to consider that worth relaying
12:18:35 <spb> < ~phenny> "O.E. syndrig
12:18:49 <sbp> yes, but was it from the Angles, Saxons, Danes, Vikings, or what?
12:19:02 <bsh> yes
12:19:10 <spb> i'd guess at vikings or danes
12:19:14 <spb> they're basically the same
12:19:23 <sbp> the OED doesn't say, but it suggests a correspondance with MHG
12:19:28 <sbp> so perhaps more likely Anglo-Saxon
12:19:30 <spb> that usage of a trailing 'g' is fairly scandinavian
12:19:31 <nslater> half conversations --
12:19:38 <bsh> vik ing for the win
12:19:39 <nslater> spb, go away pls
12:19:46 <sbp> what about spd?
12:19:49 <nslater> him too
12:19:51 <spb> sbp: please to tell nslater "lol."
12:20:21 <bsh> nslater: your ridicilously long nickname messes up my conversation rendering.
12:20:32 <nslater> suck it up
12:20:34 <sbp> nslater: spb says "lol." - not sure what the trailing full stop is all abouts
12:20:38 <bsh> nu
12:20:43 <sbp> also, best alternative spelling of sundry recorded by the OED: soondrie
12:20:44 *** cre8radix|off (n=cre8radi@p54BE670C.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #swhack
12:20:51 <nslater> the trailing full stop on irc always means srs bsns
12:20:53 <bsh> yo cre8radix
12:20:55 <sbp> kk
12:21:08 <sbp> nslater: also bsh said that your nickname is too long
12:21:22 <bsh> finally something's too long!
12:21:24 <nslater> i dont have bsh on ignore
12:21:32 <nslater> but i should do, probably
12:21:34 <spb> sbp: that one looks like someone attempting to write glaswegian
12:21:43 <sbp> spb: hehe
12:21:48 <nslater> i wish you could ignore like you ban
12:22:00 <spb> what does he mean 'like you ban'
12:22:09 <sbp> nslater: what do you mean?
12:22:26 <bsh> shall I ban someone?
12:22:36 <spb> ban nslater for being mean
12:22:40 <sbp> bsh: do't if 'twill not speak
12:22:44 <nslater> /ignore *!*@some/annoying/mask/*
12:22:48 <spb> you can
12:22:51 <spb> if your client is not shit
12:22:55 <sbp> nslater: oh, you can't? I think you can in X-Chat
12:23:02 <sbp> what client are you using? the '50s thing still?
12:23:05 <nslater> maybe you can, not tried
12:23:06 <nslater> yeah
12:23:10 <nslater> irssi
12:23:11 <Monty> yeah...
12:23:16 <sbp> yeah
12:23:18 <bsh> we could play the look-whos-not-voiced game again.
12:23:18 <nslater> shut it Monty
12:23:21 <Monty> nope, [[[ ]]] - Politics on irc always hit the old.
12:23:22 <nslater> yes
12:23:26 <nslater> we could
12:23:29 <spb> i find it highly amusing
12:23:35 <nslater> n5h, thoughts?
12:23:36 <bsh> whoa balanced marks from Monty
12:23:36 <n5h> i avoid that by not knowing where one root ends and understanding begins. rofl. realist, right.
12:23:39 <spb> the way nslater keeps saying "i wish there were a way to do this"
12:23:43 <spb> and then i tell him how to do it
12:23:44 <Monty> yes, you have those plans. Strange ... when we induced that case why am going with lexical forms the buttons "me" and head during certain Jewish kids for "line"
12:23:46 <spb> and he says "oh"
12:23:46 <Monty> sec
12:23:55 <nslater> k.
12:23:57 *** kpreid has quit ()
12:24:14 <bsh> now you've done it, kpreid left.
12:24:23 <nslater> never liked him anyway
12:24:24 <sbp> he'll be back
12:24:24 <spb> it's all nslater's fault
12:24:35 <nslater> um, i mean, yeah, what a shame
12:24:35 <sbp> he can't resist Monty's animal magnetìsm
12:24:35 <Monty> What does that suggest to you ?
12:24:41 <nslater> incest
12:24:48 *** kpreid (n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
12:24:56 <nslater> bah, it's kpreid again
12:25:03 <bsh> Speak of the kpreid, it's kpreid.
12:26:04 <kpreid> greetings
12:26:08 <kpreid> I see two greetings
12:26:20 * sbp greets kpreid in the face
12:27:14 * kpreid is not especially surprised
12:27:45 <sbp> what, you mean I have to greet some more surprising body parts in future?
12:27:49 * sbp greets kpreid in the elbow
12:27:50 <sbp> hmm
12:28:20 <bsh> .g png dSIG
12:28:21 <phenny> bsh: ftp://ftp.simplesystems.org/pub/libpng/png-group/documents/png-dSIG-proposal-20080402.pdf
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12:41:24 <Monty> But what does danieljohnlewis have to do with the price of fish?
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12:42:12 <kpreid> Monty, this is #swhack, not #priceoffish
12:42:15 <Monty> filth's spanner fornicates with frosted bogroll!
12:42:20 <kpreid> plum, this is #swhack, not #priceoffish
12:42:24 <plum> haha, so swhack means software hack or something else? to place over our land so that you'd know it was swhack!
12:42:45 <nslater> what set of plum?
12:42:49 <nslater> oh
12:42:51 <plum> i would set them to be owned by set the group to apache and chmod 644, i have sgi stuff set up may fiddle with that.
12:42:53 <nslater> /ignore me
12:43:14 <spb> plum: nslater fails
12:43:22 <spb> plum, nslater fails
12:43:24 <plum> lol, i'd rather be ignored than hugged by rms, join that conference for chat about how nslater fails at life.
12:43:29 <plum> it's another of nslater's failed vapourware projects, nslatcan anyone explain to me why nslater doesn't believe me?
12:44:08 <mahound> plum: don't say that about gnu publish
12:44:12 <plum> is sekrets pls no be publishing url, i didn't say i don't know what they are saying.
12:44:17 <bsh> plum, hit on plum
12:44:25 <plum> plum, i love how the horse has a cock drawn on, speaking of breast i had the idea of selling breast-milk extraction toolkits as a weight-loss tool. does that turn you on?
12:44:36 <mahound> hahaha
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13:33:16 <bsh> .gc +cracktube
13:33:17 <phenny> +cracktube: 146
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14:00:38 <Arnia> Hm... this is a nice one: http://web.aspasia.net/pls/cathedrl/slide_show?pcontid=1665
14:01:30 <Arnia> So is this: http://search.robinsonsestateagents.co.uk/clients/Robinsons/details.asp?PropertyID=P1513&min=0&max=750&beds=0&area=DURHAM
14:06:34 *** chris2 has quit ("Leaving")
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14:09:47 <nslater> Arnia: first one looks cool, lovely bedroom
14:10:17 <Arnia> yeah... second one is a lot closer though
14:10:24 <Arnia> (to the Science Site)
14:10:53 <Arnia> The first is up next to Johnston school, but it is only £475pcm and council tax band A
14:11:00 <nslater> yeah... which is pretty important in durham (those hills kill you)
14:11:35 <nslater> postgrads should get complimentary mobility scooters
14:12:06 <nslater> with priority lanes through campus etc
14:15:04 *** cskaterun has quit ()
14:17:38 <Arnia> just going to arrange viewings
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14:31:28 <Arnia> Grr... the first one has gone today :(
14:31:34 <Arnia> I really quite liked that one
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14:35:55 <nslater> "Swhack Sub-Committee After Dinner Club [See Draft Annex 3.7 (Proposed)] Member" ha
14:36:09 <kpreid> Monty: seen crschmidt
14:36:09 <Monty> crschmidt (i=crschmid) was last seen by #swhack coming from bia.crschmidt.net on Mon May 05 14:47:34 BST 2008 parting from the channel.
14:36:16 <kpreid> hm.
14:36:39 <nslater> ahaha http://lists.swhack.com/swhack/2005-December/000011.html
14:37:18 <nslater> "Assistant Vice Assistant CEO for Swhack Enterprises (A Non-Incorporated Entity)" oh man
14:41:22 <procto> there was a swhack list?
14:41:37 <procto> kpreid: I met his wife on another channel the other day
14:41:42 <procto> :>
14:42:03 <Morbus> i should send an email to the list.
14:42:07 <Morbus> see how many bounces i get.
14:42:18 <Morbus> weird. it's archived at mail-archive.com?
14:42:22 <Morbus> that's subscribed.
14:43:07 *** KiYanWang has quit ()
14:47:36 * Morbus sends email.
14:48:09 <Morbus> http://www.mail-archive.com/spamassassin-talk@lists.sourceforge.net/msg00218.html
14:48:15 <Morbus> the only mention of swhack on mail-archive.com
14:48:19 <Morbus> [[[
14:48:19 <Morbus> BTW I like swhack, http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/ . ghod only knows
14:48:19 <Morbus> how I never found that before. Is there a way to see more than 1 day's
14:48:19 <Morbus> bloggage?
14:48:20 <Morbus> ]]]
14:51:27 <nslater> hah
14:52:50 *** darobin (n=robinb@m57.net81-66-103.noos.fr) has joined #swhack
14:53:14 <Morbus> hey, the list still works.
14:53:17 <Morbus> heh
15:00:48 <sbp> Arnia: ping
15:00:56 <Arnia> pong
15:01:08 <sbp> okay, so adjectives come in comparative and superlative forms
15:01:17 <sbp> but is there any special term for the raw adjective?
15:01:27 <sbp> i.e. for adjectives that are neither comparative nor superlative
15:01:39 <Arnia> Two classes of adjective: predicative and attributive
15:01:47 <sbp> (William Loughborough just asked me this)
15:01:58 <sbp> aha, thanks. so no name for the union thereof?
15:02:47 <Arnia> adpositional would be the union of adjectives and adverbs
15:03:08 <sbp> hmm. he'll probably appreciate knowing that too
15:03:15 <sbp> many thanks!
15:03:17 <Arnia> np
15:03:53 <sbp> when's your next (first?) house viewing?
15:04:40 <Arnia> Monday at 3.15 for the house in Merryoaks
15:05:25 *** SinDoc (n=SinDoc@88.82.49.248) has joined #swhack
15:05:29 <Arnia> Council tax band C (£1100 to £1200 pa without single resident discount), bond at £700 and £150 in application fees
15:05:43 <sbp> furnished?
15:09:13 *** mmmmmrob (n=mmmmmrob@80.195.117.82) has joined #swhack
15:25:19 <Arnia> Part-furnished
15:25:31 <Arnia> sbp: http://search.robinsonsestateagents.co.uk/clients/Robinsons/details.asp?PropertyID=P1513&min=0&max=750&beds=0&area=DURHAM
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15:55:01 <nslater> hey, i have the official FSF position on the CPAL (licence used by reddit)
15:55:13 <nslater> loggy: url
15:55:18 <nslater> ha
15:55:20 <nslater> lisppaste2: url
15:55:20 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
15:56:03 <lisppaste2> nslater pasted "Re: [gnu.org #365031] Potential problem with FSF's endorsement of CPAL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/62494
15:56:08 <nslater> sbp: see above
15:56:53 <chandler> that seems like a fair position to me
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15:57:45 <nslater> yeah, I guess
16:00:35 <clsn> They should supply the logo in SVG so it's easier to scale.
16:02:44 <zachb> Everything should be in SVG
16:03:45 <chandler> especially photos
16:04:40 *** melbel (n=selggig@67.60.44.13) has joined #swhack
16:05:49 <zachb> yes
16:05:57 <zachb> I want a camera that takes SVG pictures
16:08:08 * Arnia provides zachb with an affine transformed version of himself
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16:11:21 <Arnia> Hm... everything has gone up so much
16:11:29 * Arnia flicks through Ikea
16:16:16 <zachb> Heh
16:16:36 <zachb> Someone's been playing too much w/ matrix algebra!
16:16:37 <chandler> Arnia: use the walkthrough: http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/how_to/the_nonexpert_ikea.php
16:16:54 * zachb takes Arnia's matrices away
16:17:03 <Arnia> MINE!
16:18:01 <zachb> [0,1;1,0].owner = "zachb"
16:18:35 <zachb> seriously, is that what you've been working on in the last few weeks?
16:18:48 <zachb> How many bottles of asprin have you gone through?
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16:23:11 <Arnia> Too few
16:23:29 <Arnia> Need more hardy stuff to numb the pain
16:23:44 <Arnia> Or a shopping spree in Ikea
16:23:50 <Arnia> Equivalent really
16:24:15 <kpreid> .title http://www.defectiveyeti.com/archives/002541.html
16:24:17 <phenny> kpreid: defective yeti: Typical Infographic
16:24:36 <kpreid> Tufte fans must see
16:26:44 <Arnia> heh
16:27:14 <nslater> kpreid: nice :)
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16:35:37 <nslater> .names
16:35:54 <Arnia> .sticksAndStones
16:35:54 <nslater> /msg sbp wanna cybur?
16:36:23 <nslater> 17:36 <sbp> hey big boy
16:37:13 <sbp> can't prove it was me. which is why when I cyber with a chick, I get her to digitally sign it
16:38:46 <spb> what is nslater doing
16:39:27 <sbp> supernova!
16:39:46 <spd> if i didn't know better i'd say he was raging and hulking on irc
16:40:10 * Arnia rages on the incredible hulk
16:40:25 <sbp> lucky you know better then!
16:40:34 <spb> i'm not sure i do
16:40:47 <sbp> ㋡
16:41:18 <spb> he appears to be trying to kill #bytesexual
16:41:51 <spd> i'm unsure why
16:42:11 <Arnia> So, we have sbp, spb and spd?
16:42:12 <sbp> yes, you're missing about twelve twelfths of the story
16:42:16 <sbp> Arnia: yeah!
16:42:18 <sbp> new innovation
16:42:26 <spb> what is the rest of the story
16:42:27 <Arnia> my poor eyes
16:42:40 <spb> Arnia: the best part is that two of us are the same person
16:42:47 <spb> and one isn't
16:42:52 * nslater suspects spb is talking
16:43:02 <nslater> high levels of half conversations goin on
16:43:50 <sbp> spb: yeah, at least eight donkeys
16:43:53 <sbp> possibly even more!
16:43:59 * Arnia eats donkeys
16:44:02 <sbp> good question
16:44:10 <sbp> well, I think so
16:44:15 <sbp> hehe. yeah
16:44:26 <sbp> if you like, but don't forget the bison's place in all this
16:44:48 <spb> i loled
16:44:51 <sbp> nah
16:44:56 <sbp> it would be though
16:47:11 <spb> sbp: so, do you know what actually brings on the raging and hulking?
16:47:48 <sbp> of course. I am privy to many instruments delectable and serpentine, and equivocal equities both serene and haberdashed
16:48:04 <sbp> it's not raging and hulking for a start
16:48:19 * nslater choxelles
16:48:27 <spd> do tell
16:48:38 <sbp> it was carried out with all the precise calm precision of a Tory backbencher on a caravan holiday in the Patagonian Fells just outside Humberford
16:48:43 <sbp> but!
16:48:58 <sbp> and here's the really interesting part of the story
16:49:19 <sbp> you'll have to wait a moment. I am fatigued from laughing somewhat
16:49:26 <nslater> hahaha
16:49:39 <spb> quite understandable
16:49:40 <sbp> look, don't make me laugh more nslater
16:49:43 <nslater> oh man, this is funny, even only hearing one side of the discussion at hand
16:49:46 <nslater> sorry mang
16:49:51 <spb> this is the most lol i've seen on irc in a while
16:50:27 <sbp> alright so here's the haps
16:50:40 <sbp> nslater got a telegram the other day, slipped under his front door
16:50:50 <spb> retro style
16:50:53 *** lordi (n=hannes@sedanet0.sedan.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE) has joined #swhack
16:50:55 <sbp> it was from an anonymous contact at the Ministry of Agriculture
16:51:12 <sbp> this is a rough paraphrase of its whole and true contents:
16:51:28 <sbp> SIR STOP YOUR CHANNEL IS INFECTED BY ALIEN BIOGENICS STOP
16:51:38 <sbp> WE WILL INFORM YOU IN DUE COURSE OF THE APPROPRIATE ACTION STOP
16:51:54 <sbp> REGARDS MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND TAMPON DISPOSAL
16:52:11 <spb> does he intensely dislike alien biogenics?
16:52:15 <sbp> obviously nslater was much astounded by this message!
16:52:26 <sbp> well, nslater I have always considered to be an agnostic
16:52:37 <sbp> he's cool with this and that, you know w'msayin'?
16:52:45 *** melbel has parted #swhack ()
16:52:53 <sbp> so on this matter I naturally expected that he would prevaricate
16:53:55 <spb> was your expectation borne out, or crushed?
16:54:22 <sbp> well unfortunately the message was confirmed to be valid the very next day when an evil cultist by the name of Captain Sherville contacted nslater in person and managed to convince him of the veracity of the MoA's claim
16:54:37 <sbp> now at this point, nslater, he's a cool cat, but he doesn't know what to do!
16:54:44 <sbp> he's in a tizzy six ways from Sunday
16:54:58 <sbp> so he gets on the blower and he screams into the mouthpiece GET ME THE PRIME MINISTER!!
16:55:04 <sbp> but it dun't do no good!
16:55:07 <sbp> phone's disconnected!
16:55:08 <nslater> yes, I was much astounded, and I would formally clasify my self as an onanist, anti-rape, anti-murder, indescribable, leftist conservative liberal biggot who looks like a fly at distance
16:55:13 <sbp> suddenly, an explosion is heard outside
16:55:19 <sbp> was it just a car backfiring?
16:55:24 <spb> the prime minister was too busy talking to a truck driver from hull about tax policy
16:55:28 <sbp> he'll never know, because he hid immediately under his bed
16:55:37 <sbp> yeah, what's up with Brown and truck drivers? serious wtf
16:55:58 <spb> he has to phone them up to ask how to run the country
16:56:07 <spb> but anyway, enough about brown
16:56:11 <sbp> well, it's probably a good idea when you think about it
16:56:13 <spb> what did nslater do while hiding under his bed?
16:56:17 <sbp> nobody's going to do a worse job really
16:56:18 <nslater> srs
16:56:31 <sbp> oh, well that part is censored. I mean we must give the gentleman some of his due privacy and dignity
16:56:41 <spb> he has dignity?
16:56:59 <sbp> suffice it to say that he masturbated furiously over various "items", let's just call them Action Man dolls, long into the night
16:57:06 <sbp> now
16:57:11 <nslater> wat
16:57:15 <sbp> the next morning, the sun came up, the cock crew, all was good with the world
16:57:27 <sbp> nslater: protecting your private moments, dude
16:57:33 <nslater> kk, thx
16:57:33 <sbp> so he was like, was it all just a dream?
16:57:35 <spb> the cock crew is his mates from the pub, right?
16:57:41 <jsled> heh
16:57:41 <sbp> or am I truly the special appointed one?
16:57:52 <sbp> I'm not sure. I'm just telling the story as I received it, from the Daily Star
16:58:03 <chandler> did you know that laughing until you can't breathe can inhibit typing?
16:58:09 <sbp> so anyway... hmm this story needs a heroine
16:58:18 <nslater> RMS?
16:58:19 <sbp> chandler: would you like to play the heroine? you're nubile enough
16:58:28 <nslater> rms is nubile
16:58:34 <nslater> dont make me break out the ascii art
16:58:37 <chandler> sbp: I would but I can't afford the sex change operation
16:58:41 <sbp> rms is nubile but quite bovine
16:58:50 <chandler> perhaps you should cast n5h in that role
16:58:51 <nslater> pearesque
16:58:51 <n5h> (child porn entrapment^wsting operation. but i haven't typed on such a question mark and engaged the randomotron. or.
16:58:55 <spb> chandler: 'sok, i know someone who can lend you a wig and a dress
16:58:57 <nslater> wat
16:58:59 <sbp> okay. well let's just say that there was a lady involved by the name of chandlerina then
16:59:24 <sbp> now this broad was hot. she'd walk by men and they'd close their umberellas; I'm tellin' you, she was HOT!
16:59:45 <sbp> so when she knocked on nslater's day on that cold and crazy summer's morning, he knew that this must be special
16:59:58 <sbp> "lol hai", she said, in a mysterious Arabian accent
17:00:02 <sbp> "wtf up lol plz"
17:00:15 <sbp> nslater was taken aback with her sheer beauty, and asked her name
17:00:26 <sbp> "clangader... lol sry. chandlerina. xxx"
17:00:30 <sbp> it was game on!
17:01:00 <sbp> immediately they hopped into her Ford '58 Thunderbird station wagon t-rip convertible, and blasted off down the Amazonian highway into the... okay this is the point where I need to concentrate
17:02:18 <chandler> kk. so my first acting gig is as a hot chix with a station wagon convertible? this is everything I'd hoped it would be
17:02:26 <sbp> alright, back
17:02:33 <sbp> so after a few days they get to the MoA
17:02:40 <procto> MoA?
17:02:47 <procto> ministry of ?
17:02:51 <sbp> Ministry of Art! pay attention
17:02:55 <sbp> um, Agriculture
17:03:06 <chandler> procto: Achtung!
17:04:37 <sbp> sorry, distracted by televisual comedies
17:04:47 <sbp> you dudes can make up shit for a while
17:04:58 <spb> damn you
17:05:00 <chandler> I'm going to make me up a nice lunch
17:05:04 <spb> irc comedies are far more important
17:05:06 <thelsdj> Morbus: i'm up for some PBP scholarly adventuring
17:05:42 <procto> ja wohl
17:07:26 <Morbus> thelsdj: good to know, thanks.
17:08:09 <thelsdj> i've developed an addiction to rpgmp3.com
17:08:22 <zachb> sbp: that was an awesome story
17:08:30 <th