00:00:38 <_bjoern> .gc "do what you can't not do"
00:00:40 <phenny> "do what you can't not do": 6,980
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00:13:42 <Monty2> hi chimezie
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02:52:14 <zachb> .gc and we shall make our own sun
02:52:15 <phenny> and we shall make our own sun: 11,300,000
02:52:58 <zachb> hmm
02:53:25 <zachb> You see, it just came to me... it was so beautiful... I know I didn't make it up... I want to find what its from...
02:54:11 <zachb> "And we shall make our own sun to light up the starry sky / And all will marvel in its grace" -- that's what's going through my head right now... although maybe s/grace/beauty/
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08:00:01 <sbp> yo
08:03:31 <sbp> [[[
08:03:31 <sbp> A man posing as a priest has been caught trying to hear confessions in St Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, a judge in the city-state has said.
08:03:36 <sbp> ]]] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7491851.stm
08:03:51 <sbp> and the picture caption is: ‘The fake priest was "caught by surprise in the basilica"’
08:08:11 <sbp> [[[
08:08:12 <sbp> Despite his pioneering work in the field of computers, Sir Clive told BBC Radio 4 he was not an internet user.
08:08:12 <sbp> "I don't use it myself directly," he said, explaining that as an inventor he tried to avoid "mechanical and technical things around me so they don't blur the mind".
08:08:17 <sbp> ]]] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7481940.stm
08:09:04 <sbp> hmm
08:09:05 <sbp> [[[
08:09:06 <sbp> US President George W Bush has signed a bill removing Nelson Mandela and South African leaders from the US terror watch list, officials say.
08:09:11 <sbp> ]]] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7484517.stm
08:27:11 <laplink> This you notice now?
08:32:28 <kwijibo> lol!
08:33:26 <sbp> I notice many things now
08:38:13 <laplink> OTOH, let me just say; Nelson Mandela is the spiritual leader of ANC, an organisation who fought for freedom using violent and asymmetric methods. By the current definitions he _is_ a terrorist.
08:39:26 <sbp> any current or former leader of any organisation that's in charge of an oil producing nation is, by current definitions...
08:39:50 <laplink> heh heh
08:40:14 <kwijibo> was his wife not involved with tire burnings?
08:40:41 <laplink> Lots of good petroleum product wasted there, yes.
08:41:18 * kwijibo googles
08:41:34 <kwijibo> ah not sure if she actually ordered any necklaces herself
08:41:44 <laplink> We should campaign to get Nelson Mandela put back on the no-fly list.
08:41:46 <sbp> necklaces?
08:41:55 <kwijibo> NYT just says "she has failed to explain away her approval of "necklaces" -- the gasoline-soaked tires used to execute suspected informers by burning them alive."
08:42:53 <sbp> ...
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09:02:35 <sbp> [[[
09:02:36 <sbp> When images of human faces are averaged together to form a composite image, they become progressively closer to the "ideal" image and are perceived as more attractive. This was first noticed in 1883, when Francis Galton, cousin of Charles Darwin, overlayed photographic composite images of the faces of vegetarians and criminals to see if there was a typical facial appearance for each. When doing this, he noticed that the composite images were more attractive compa
09:02:36 <sbp> red to any of the individual images.
09:02:41 <sbp> ]]] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty
09:08:57 * laplink averages sbp with the goatse.cx guy…
09:09:56 <sbp> awesome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Furenjieitai.jpg
09:36:16 <kwijibo> wow, didn't know that face composite beauty thing was done in 1883
09:37:21 * kwijibo read the other day that there's a bit of old bone from 6500 bc with a list of prime numbers carved into it
09:43:30 <sbp> heh, where'd you see that?
09:43:55 <sbp> ah, Ishango Bone
09:43:57 <sbp> .wik Ishango Bone
09:43:58 <phenny> "The Ishango bone is a bone tool, dated to the Upper Paleolithic era, about 18000 to 20000 BC." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishango_Bone
09:45:49 <sbp> pretty interesting
09:47:34 <laplink> Wow, Shapiro is good.
09:48:05 <laplink> If only he would have bothered to cite his sources, or even to just mention in prose where he gets the more remarkable facts.
09:48:26 <Mike_L> laplink: url?
09:49:24 <laplink> .wik James S. Shapiro
09:49:25 <phenny> "James S. Shapiro (born 1955) is Professor of English and Comparative Literature at Columbia University and non-fiction author." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_S._Shapiro
09:49:47 <Mike_L> ah
09:50:51 <laplink> I'm finally getting around to reading his «1599: a Year in the Life of William Shakespeare» and it's really very good.
09:52:00 <laplink> Well written, engaging, approachable… He explains the surrounding context in a way that turns a nominally scholarly work into a page turner.
09:52:09 <laplink> I'm quite impressed.
10:02:28 <sbp> kwijibo: see also http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/28/rosenberg.php
10:02:49 <sbp> laplink: yeah, he's like SS in that respect...
10:04:22 * kwijibo wonders exactly how improbable it is that the patterns are random
10:04:44 <kwijibo> SS?
10:05:15 <sbp> .wik S. Schoenbaum
10:05:17 <phenny> "David Schoenbaum (born 1935, Milwaukee, Wisconsin) is an American social scientist and historian." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Schoenbaum
10:05:19 <sbp> tsk
10:05:23 <sbp> .wik Sam Schoenbaum
10:05:24 <phenny> "Samuel Schoenbaum (6 March 1927 – 27 March 1996) was a leading 20th century Shakespearean biographer and scholar." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Schoenbaum
10:05:48 <laplink> And he was a truly remarkable fellow.
10:09:15 <kwijibo> At the english dept in the uni where i did my masters there used to be a professor that became a shakespearean scholar because he was stuck in a POW camp in WWII, and all he had to read was the complete works of WS
10:09:26 <kwijibo> so he read it 15 or 16 times
10:09:33 <sbp> heh
10:09:42 <kwijibo> and when he came out he was a shakespeare expert
10:09:49 <sbp> what was his favourite play?
10:09:57 <kwijibo> dunno, never met the guy :(
10:10:01 <sbp> ah
10:10:55 <kwijibo> i wonder if ti changed from the 1st reading to the 16th
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10:13:20 <Monty2> yo libby!
10:14:41 <kwijibo> sbp: do you have a favourite?
10:14:48 <sbp> AMND
10:15:47 <laplink> Interesting choice.
10:15:54 <sbp> what's yours?
10:17:31 <kwijibo> not sure
10:17:40 <kwijibo> not read or seen that many
10:17:48 <sbp> was asking laplink :-)
10:18:00 <laplink> Me? AMND, but I'm not sufficiently well versed for it to be meaningfull to speak of a favourite.
10:18:36 <laplink> And my AMND is too coloured by Gaiman's take be entirely pure.
10:18:41 <sbp> heh, heh
10:18:53 <_bjoern> DIE SPINNEN DIE SWHACKER
10:19:05 <sbp> phenny: "DIE SPINNEN DIE SWHACKER"?
10:19:06 <phenny> sbp: "THE SPINNEN THE SWHACKER" (de to en, translate.google.com)
10:19:14 <sbp> well I knew that much...
10:19:17 <_bjoern> phenny, "Spinnen"?
10:19:17 <phenny> _bjoern: "Spiders" (de to en, translate.google.com)
10:19:55 <_bjoern> leo would know of course.
10:20:06 <sbp> leo says spinner
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10:23:03 <kwijibo> sbp: has amnd always been your favourite?
10:23:06 <_bjoern> .gs Die spinnen, die *
10:23:07 <phenny> Die spinnen, die *: amis (8), römer (7), engländer (7), australier (6), spinnen (5), briten (5), inselaffen (4), franzosen (4), finnen (4), dänen (4), belgier (4)
10:23:30 <sbp> since I've known it, yeah
10:23:32 <_bjoern> .gcs "die spinnen die amis" "die spinnen die römer" "die spinnen die engländer"
10:23:35 <phenny> "die spinnen die römer" (21,100), "die spinnen die amis" (17,100), "die spinnen die engländer" (2,730)
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10:29:02 <_bjoern> hmm seems my math was a little bit off! http://cpants.perl.org/author/BJOERN
10:29:24 <_bjoern> perhaps I assumed I had already fixed the readme problem
10:36:47 <sbp> ”in amongst all the moosic, life on the dairy farm just goes on” - accents are fun
10:40:32 <laplink> Quite amoosing, yes.
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10:54:30 <sbp> RCRRC
10:55:29 <laplink> ?
10:55:48 <sbp> Rain, Cloud...
10:55:52 <sbp> five day forecast
10:56:11 <sbp> this is the third week I've transcribed it
10:56:15 <sbp> nobody's asked before, oddly
10:56:37 <laplink> Hmm. Fulke Greville was Essex' cousin? Interesting.
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10:57:13 <sbp> everybody was everybody's cousin in the aristocracy... :-)
10:58:07 <laplink> The connections all the way up to Elizabeth are, if indirect, quite numerous.
10:59:00 <laplink> Figuratively or Literally? I take Shapiro to be literal here. Hard to tell when he doesn't fucking cite his sources.
10:59:01 <Monty2> potty mouth!
10:59:07 <sbp> yeah. also she was godparent to like a hundred kids (I think Shapiro says even)
10:59:42 <_bjoern> founding a new species with only a single male and a single female specimen and without incest is kinda difficult, I heard.
10:59:50 <_bjoern> So I suppose they didn't fell too bad about it.
10:59:58 <_bjoern> fell!
11:00:58 <sbp> what are we talking about, the cows?
11:01:05 <laplink> We should draw up these connections.
11:01:14 <laplink> Greville seems to pop up a lot.
11:01:37 <sbp> hmm, not a bad idea. Ian Wilson raises some interesting points about this
11:02:03 <sbp> that the Lord Chamberlain, for example, was not on good terms with one of the people whose marriage is suggested as the occasion for AMND's writing and first performance
11:02:52 <sbp> [[[
11:02:52 <sbp> Burghley had been pushing earlier for a match between Oxford's daughter Elizabeth Vere and Henry Wriothesley, Earl of Southampton. But 1595 saw the marriage of Elizabeth Vere to William Stanley, 6th Earl of Derby, the wedding associated with the performance of A Midsummer Night's Dream
11:02:53 <sbp> ]]]
11:03:00 <sbp> the Vere one, I think
11:03:24 <laplink> He didn't like William Stanley?
11:03:37 <sbp> can't remember the exact details
11:04:05 <sbp> Wilson is quite interesting on these accounts though; he goes in for a bit of the whole Elizabethan underworld conspiracy tinge, but he doesn't do it in the same way as everybody else. he seems more credible, less speculative
11:04:14 <laplink> Do we know how old Elizabeth was at the time?
11:04:27 * sbp checks
11:05:09 <laplink> That little triangle seems ripe for plot inspiration for Shaks, if not an excellent fancy to feed the Fair Youth/Dark Lady speculations.
11:05:31 <sbp> "the 1575 birth of Elizabeth Vere" says some random book
11:05:40 <sbp> by W. Ron Hess
11:05:56 <laplink> Hmm. 20 doesn't quite match my expectations of the Dark Lady, but fair enough.
11:06:19 <sbp> she's probably been suggested. everybody's been suggested
11:06:27 <laplink> Of course.
11:06:45 <laplink> But everyone having been suggested allready means everyone is suddenly on equal footing again.
11:07:04 <sbp> “These sonnets, beginning at 127, to his Mistress, are worse than a puzzle-peg. They are abominably harsh, obscure & worthless.” - Wordsworth on the Dark Lady sequence
11:07:32 <_bjoern> Random fact: empty documents cannot be transcoded by internet explorer's character encoding transcoding library.
11:07:54 <sbp> I think Emilia Lanier is the current favourite pet theory
11:08:07 <sbp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilia_Lanier#Shakespeare.27s_.22Dark_Lady.22.3F
11:08:42 <sbp> [[[
11:08:42 <sbp> She was for several years the mistress of Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon, first cousin of Elizabeth I of England. She was married to court musician Alfonso Lanier in 1592 when she became pregnant, and the marriage was reportedly unhappy.
11:08:43 <sbp> ]]]
11:08:48 <sbp> Carey being the LC, of course
11:09:21 <sbp> by the time he became LC, Emilia was married to Lanier though
11:20:15 <laplink> Hmm. Are we currently favouring shade of hair, complexion, or metaphor for the Dark bit?
11:20:56 <laplink> Reading about the war with Spain I'm tempted by mediterrenean complexion, which would add a nice bit of drama to the thing.
11:21:16 <sbp> you mean, why is the Dark Lady considered dark? Wikipedia says:
11:21:17 <sbp> [[[
11:21:19 <sbp> Some readers have suggested that the reference to her "dun" (a dull, grayish, brown color) skin and "black wires...on her head" suggests that she was of African descent, as the trait described is uniquely African (as referenced in Anthony Burgess's novel about Shakespeare, Nothing Like the Sun).
11:21:23 <sbp> ]]]
11:21:37 <laplink> ah
11:22:20 <sbp> laplink: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/4081/DarkLady.html has a good summary
11:22:25 <sbp> quite a few references to blackness
11:22:52 * kwijibo has an edition of lanier's poems on his shelf
11:24:21 * kwijibo reads the preface and hastens to add, a modern edition - apparently there are only 4 existing copies of the original
11:25:00 <sbp> “Here, the lady is described as having dun breasts which now clearly describes the woman's skin-colour as either dark-brown or black.”
11:25:11 <sbp> this author seems to mistake the definition of dun...
11:25:15 * sbp checks OED
11:26:07 <sbp> “1. Of a dull or dingy brown colour; now esp. dull greyish brown, like the hair of the ass and mouse.”
11:26:45 <kwijibo> doesn't sound so attractive ...
11:26:54 <sbp> that's the whole point of the poem
11:27:08 <sbp> "If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
11:27:08 <sbp> If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head."
11:27:19 <sbp> note he's also contrasting her breast to snow
11:27:29 <kwijibo> not cigarette papers
11:27:30 <sbp> and "white" skin compared to snow may be considered dun
11:27:39 <laplink> [[[
11:27:39 <laplink> O, she doth teach the torches to burn bright!
11:27:39 <laplink> It seems she hangs upon the cheek of night
11:27:39 <laplink> Like a rich jewel in an Ethiope's ear;
11:27:39 <laplink> Beauty too rich for use, for earth too dear!
11:27:40 <laplink> So shows a snowy dove trooping with crows,
11:27:42 <laplink> As yonder lady o'er her fellows shows.
11:27:44 <laplink> The measure done, I'll watch her place of stand,
11:27:46 <laplink> And, touching hers, make blessed my rude hand.
11:27:48 <laplink> Did my heart love till now? forswear it, sight!
11:27:52 <laplink> For I ne'er saw true beauty till this night.
11:27:54 <laplink> ]]] — RJ, Act 1, Scene 5
11:27:57 <sbp> laplink: aye :-)
11:28:15 <sbp> also the darkness in AMND
11:28:17 <sbp> hmm, actually...
11:28:24 <sbp> that's interesting. LLL, RJ, and AMND
11:28:31 <sbp> they're all allied in time: 1594–6
11:28:47 <sbp> which is also one of the primary guesses for when the bulk of the sonnets were written
11:28:59 <sbp> (cf. old Swhack logs, wherein bancus asked the same question)
11:29:31 <laplink> (note to self: look for further plays that may be relevant to Dark Lady to identify possible LLW candidates)
11:29:49 <sbp> LLW candidates?
11:30:08 <sbp> they're already narrowed down quite strongly
11:30:22 <sbp> to, well, nothing
11:30:30 <sbp> because LLW co-occurs in two known lists
11:30:43 <sbp> which only leaves late plays; but we know LLW is early
11:30:51 <sbp> so it's almost certainly a now lost play
11:30:57 <sbp> LLWL
11:31:18 <laplink> If one presumes LLW would have been connected somewhat to LLL, a connection to the Dark Lady miht be one thread to tie them together.
11:31:47 <sbp> maybe the answers to the sonnet questions are in LLW
11:31:56 <sbp> which is why they didn't print it in the first folio... :-)
11:32:16 <sbp> lead characters, Emilia and Henry...
11:32:25 <laplink> Well, but if lost, why and how? Given we appear to have a great percentage of the rest of his output, how could this one have been so shamefully lost?
11:32:29 <laplink> Right.
11:32:35 <sbp> or Emilio and Henri to make it a thingy de clef
11:32:45 <sbp> there are two lost plays, in fact
11:32:53 <sbp> we have the great percentage only because of the first folio
11:33:02 <laplink> Right, but only two; and I've ssen few speculations that there might be more.
11:33:21 <sbp> well it's possible; but there'd have to have been no contextual mention of it
11:33:29 <laplink> (apart from folks much later who claim to have discovered one, of course)
11:33:39 <sbp> I think it's almost certain that he *contributed* to many that we don't know about now
11:33:44 <sbp> i.e. that Sir Thomas More can't be just a one off
11:33:56 <laplink> Oh sure.
11:34:08 <laplink> And wrote loads of stuff before he was famous enough to be named as author.
11:34:24 <laplink> And the stuff (mottos) on the shields in Whitehall.
11:34:27 <sbp> I'm not sure why Cardenio and LLW weren't printed in the first folio, but I think I read somewhere that rights may have been a consideration
11:34:35 <sbp> they had to get the rights for all the other plays
11:34:45 <sbp> then again, I don't think Cardenio and LLW were entered in the SR...
11:35:04 <laplink> Oh? I'm fairly sure the playing company owned the plays.
11:35:15 <laplink> And they were still sharers at this point, no?
11:35:20 <sbp> they sold them off and transferred them too
11:35:36 <sbp> there are SR entries that record the transfers
11:35:54 <laplink> Hmm. This sounds implausible to me.
11:36:10 <laplink> Why would they sell off their crown jewels?
11:36:22 <sbp> [[[
11:36:23 <sbp> The First Folio's publishing syndicate also included two stationers who owned the rights to some of the individual plays that had been previously printed: William Aspley (Much Ado About Nothing and Henry IV, Part 2) and John Smethwick (Love's Labor's Lost, Romeo and Juliet, and Hamlet). Smethwick had been a business partner of another Jaggard, William's brother John.
11:36:24 <sbp> ]]]
11:36:36 <sbp> for money, presumably :-)
11:37:23 <sbp> I think it was only printing rights, not acting, note
11:37:34 <laplink> Hmm. 2 Heny IV. That's the one where Shapiro describes the alternate epilogues, and puts the Whitehall one in Shaks own mouth. No?
11:37:34 <sbp> not like now, where rights are a big clusterfuck of privileges
11:37:45 <sbp> yeah
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11:38:09 <sbp> the one that talks about Falstaff returning in H5; and then he doesn't
11:38:18 <laplink> Hmm. And FF includes both versions?
11:38:32 <sbp> both versions of what? it doesn't include two versions of any play
11:38:41 <laplink> Of the speech
11:38:41 <Monty2> Of the weather like today?
11:38:46 <sbp> oh, yeah
11:39:12 <laplink> Hmm. Interesting that they should have preserved both.
11:39:34 <sbp> ‘18 Henry IV, Part 2 — uncertain: some combination of manuscript and quarto text.’
11:39:38 <laplink> I wonder if that was an accident on their part.
11:39:50 <sbp> probably. they made loads of bizarre mistakes
11:40:01 <sbp> and just assembled texts from wherever they could get them from
11:40:07 <sbp> often even the earlier quartos!
11:40:11 <laplink> Shapiro's speculation that Shaks, in person, made the entire court kneel with him is fascinating.
11:40:15 <sbp> you'd think they'd have more of the foul papers
11:40:21 <sbp> yeah, I like that
11:40:32 <sbp> very clever suggestion
11:41:01 <laplink> Well, it probably saved a lot of time and money to use the previously published copies as the source rather then assemble foul papers.
11:41:12 <sbp> true. well they did use fouls in some cases
11:41:18 <laplink> And we also need consider the claim that Shaks “never blotted a line”.
11:41:23 <sbp> guess it mattered whether they had them to hand or not
11:41:32 <sbp> I think that was hyperbole
11:41:35 <laplink> How did that particular mythos get started I wonder.
11:41:39 <sbp> Hand D crosses out line
11:41:56 <sbp> presumably they just meant that he rarely had to emend
11:42:24 <laplink> Right, but I think we can safely assume his foul papers were, uhm, quite foul.
11:42:52 <sbp> don't think we can assume that. for example, we have Milton's foul papers for Comus
11:42:59 <sbp> and they're quite wonderfully neat
11:43:00 <laplink> hmm
11:43:10 <sbp> they're online somewhere; hang on
11:44:06 <sbp> here we go: http://www.mith.umd.edu/comus/final/trinity01.htm
11:44:22 <sbp> the big X over the first page is the biggest change in the whole manuscript
11:44:31 <sbp> and it's hardly untidy
11:44:59 <sbp> I like how Shaks ruled between each change of character
11:45:06 <sbp> if Hand D is anything to go by
11:45:14 <laplink> BTW, if Shapiro's kneeling incident is even remotely related to what actually happened, Shaks must have been a not insignificant player in the game of the court; no way would he have gotten away with such a trick without some kind of currency of power.
11:45:38 <sbp> well don't forget the rumour that they sent for Shakespeare to come when James was at Wilton
11:46:04 <sbp> EKC actually interviewed Lady Pembroke about that
11:46:17 <laplink> I think I recall that one.
11:46:19 <sbp> but by then she was in very old age, and not mentally competent enough to answer properly
11:46:23 <sbp> yeah, think we went through it
11:46:32 <kwijibo> EKC?
11:46:43 <sbp> .wik E. K. Chambers
11:46:44 <phenny> "Sir Edmund Kerchever Chambers (1866–1954) was an English literary critic and Shakespearean scholar." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._K._Chambers
11:47:00 <sbp> another one of the giants
11:47:26 <kwijibo> what would a lady pembroke in 19thc know about it?
11:47:35 <laplink> None have as yet matched him, in his particular niche, as far as I've been able to determine.
11:47:39 <kwijibo> family legends?
11:47:44 <sbp> she had a letter
11:47:58 <sbp> she mentioned the letter to a passing antiquarian
11:48:04 <sbp> who noted its contents
11:48:14 <sbp> then EKC went back decades later to check it out
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11:48:37 <sbp> nothing's been seen of the letter since. Lady Pembroke said she thought there was a copy in the British Library or Public Record Office
11:48:47 <sbp> all Shakespearean research is like this, really. i.e. infuriating :-)
11:49:17 <laplink> We should double check that later scholars have really exhausted all possible trails of that letter, btw.
11:49:30 <sbp> very much agreed
11:49:41 <sbp> I wonder what happened to the Pembroke family library
11:49:49 <sbp> and whether EKC went through it all; doubt it
11:49:50 <nsh> BIGSPLOSION
11:49:53 <sbp> yo nsh
11:50:00 <nsh> iggidy boo
11:50:15 <nsh> what's tempering in the chalices?
11:50:22 <laplink> cf. the trail of possible Shaks papers that were removed after his death, and whose trail seems to peter out a bit too quickly and with little mention in the literature.
11:50:34 <sbp> yeah, that's very annoying
11:50:39 <sbp> so many stories about that
11:51:00 <sbp> laplink: oh, Records and Images has a few good things on that by the way
11:51:11 <sbp> it surveys the books with Shakespeare's signature in it
11:51:19 <sbp> and, being SS, he's exceptionally critical about them all
11:51:22 <sbp> except three
11:51:24 * laplink curses Amazon's lack of JOHP copies…
11:51:41 <sbp> hmm? isn't there a what's-its-name reprint of Outlines?
11:52:25 <laplink> kwijibo: That's…
11:52:27 <laplink> .wik James Orchard Halliwell-Phillipps
11:52:28 <phenny> "James Orchard Halliwell-Phillipps (June 21, 1820 - January 3, 1889) was an English Shakespearean scholar." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Orchard_Halliwell-Phillipps
11:52:32 <laplink> …for reference. :-)
11:52:34 <sbp> .title http://amazon.co.uk/dp/0766128229
11:52:37 <phenny> sbp: Amazon.co.uk: Outlines of the Life of Shakespeare Vol. 1 (1889): v. 1: J.O. Halliwell-Phillipps: Books
11:52:38 <sbp> heh, heh. another giant!
11:52:48 <sbp> .title http://amazon.co.uk/dp/0766135918
11:52:52 <phenny> sbp: Amazon.co.uk: Outlines of the Life of Shakespeare Vol. 2 (1889): v. 2: J.O. Halliwell-Phillipps: Books
11:53:02 <laplink> «Availability: Temporarily out of stock»
11:53:04 <sbp> ooh, this looks interesting:
11:53:06 <sbp> .title http://amazon.co.uk/dp/1584560517
11:53:09 <phenny> sbp: Amazon.co.uk: James Orchard Halliwell-Phillipps: The Life and Works of the Shapearean Scholar and Bookman: Marvin Spevack: Books
11:53:12 <sbp> stock: oh, crud
11:53:18 <kwijibo> ta laplink
11:53:35 <laplink> ooh. The Bio of the Biographer? Interesting.
11:53:46 <sbp> wonder if it's better than SS's bio of JOHP
11:53:51 <sbp> (in Shakespeare's Lives)
11:53:59 <laplink> SS wrote a bio of JOHP?!?
11:54:00 <laplink> Oh.
11:54:13 <sbp> he wrote a biography of everybody... except himself :-)
11:54:48 <laplink> Which is annoying as hell. That damned “S” would have infuriated him if he was researching himself.
11:54:54 <sbp> hehe, yeah
11:55:02 <sbp> almost seems like he did it on purpose
11:55:12 <sbp> seemed to avoid photographs and stuff
11:55:15 <laplink> heh heh, I wouldn't put it past him.
11:55:25 <sbp> probably making sure that only a good scholar would cover him!
11:55:38 <_bjoern> .wik subjunctive
11:55:39 <phenny> "In grammar, the subjunctive mood (sometimes referred to as the conjunctive mood) is a verb mood that exists in many languages." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive
11:55:43 <sbp> cue SS conspiracy theories
11:55:49 <sbp> Chambers lived on as SS? :-)
11:56:05 <_bjoern> I must say I find "mood" here rather odd, in german it's "mode" (modus)
11:56:08 * sbp shouldn't even joke... some fool out there will believe it
11:56:21 <sbp> moode
11:56:35 <laplink> A secret decendant of Shaks, publishing based on the secret family archives.
11:56:40 <sbp> hehe
11:56:53 <_bjoern> Don't shit with me, I'm in a rather indicative imperative mood.
11:57:05 <laplink> I wonder if I could get that published somewhere (under a pseudonym, of course).
11:57:19 * sbp turns _bjoern into a subordinate conditional
11:57:37 <_bjoern> I shall conjungate your subjunctions.
11:57:41 <sbp> nooOOo
11:57:46 <_bjoern> U ASKED 4 IT
11:57:55 <sbp> laplink: all kinds of possibilities for all kinds of Shakespearean "study" parodies...
11:58:24 <sbp> could probably make some damn fun ones. if people are so easily suckered by people who don't even seem to know better...
11:58:29 <laplink> Wasn't there a famous example of a paper getting published that was (deliberately)just plausible sounding nonsense?
11:58:36 <sbp> yup! Sokal affair
11:58:38 <sbp> .wik Sokal affair
11:58:39 <phenny> "The Sokal affair (also Sokal's hoax) was a hoax by physicist Alan Sokal perpetrated on the editorial staff and readership of the postmodern cultural studies journal Social Text (published by Duke University)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair
11:58:41 <laplink> Recently, I mean. … right
11:58:57 <sbp> thing is though, it was postmodern
11:59:04 <sbp> and postmodernism is the destruction of meaning
11:59:08 <laplink> Can't have that, no.
11:59:10 <sbp> so actually it was a perfectly valid article
11:59:10 <Monty2> hmm
11:59:37 <sbp> so I dunno what all the fuss was about
11:59:47 <_bjoern> I want a tool like http://www.archives.nd.edu/words.htm for english (and german)
11:59:51 <_bjoern> help. NOW!
12:00:27 <laplink> Hmm. The S is really for “Shakespeare”, and all males in his family were so named. Hid their bloodline to avoid the Bavarian Iluminati, which were really behind Nazy Germany.
12:00:39 <laplink> Right, this could work.
12:01:14 <_bjoern> Don't you think historic facts are a bit too dry?
12:01:20 <laplink> Target somepeer-reviewed jurnal that likes to publish Authorship stuff.
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12:02:36 <sbp> not a bad idea...
12:02:42 <laplink> Oh, and then vigorously attack in on shaksper.net and letters to editors to see if we can't get someone to stand up and champion it.
12:04:05 <_bjoern> Oh I see you might get into some trouble here, "The Bavarian Illuminati has been around for centuries in one way or another. It's presence in the 20th century is the direct result of the Nazis." - http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/project_paperclip.htm
12:06:02 <_bjoern> the Microsoft <-> Bavarian Illuminati connection seems popular.
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12:06:24 <laplink> Oh yes precious. Let us hence go forth and clusterfuck their brainbunnies.
12:07:20 <_bjoern> http://www.illuminatiarchives.org/ufo/did-hitler-escape-to-antarctica-in-a-ufo/
12:07:46 <_bjoern> seems they took the video off
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12:11:32 <_bjoern> I cannot find a tool that takes some english word and tells me whether it's a word or a noun and what form it is in
12:11:47 <_bjoern> Can't be there is one for latin but none for english!
12:12:38 <kwijibo> wordreference.com ?
12:14:08 <_bjoern> When I say "search" among the results should be "imperative"
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12:15:10 <sbp> a word or a noun?
12:15:44 <_bjoern> I do not understand the question.
12:15:46 <sbp> British GP good so far
12:15:58 <sbp> [ word { noun } ]
12:16:09 <sbp> so word || noun doesn't make sense
12:16:26 <_bjoern> Oh I wanted to write "verb"
12:16:36 <_bjoern> and adjective and whatever.
12:16:44 <sbp> you should feel free to do what you want!
12:16:50 <sbp> don't let your fingers boss you around
12:17:00 <sbp> once they start playing up, they'll just do it more and more...
12:17:20 <_bjoern> If you cannot say what you mean, then do not say anything at all.
12:17:30 <laplink> As you like it.
12:17:40 <sbp> actually, what would be nice is a set of probabilities of word classes
12:19:48 <_bjoern> % words ama
12:19:48 <_bjoern> am.a N 1 1 NOM S F
12:19:48 <_bjoern> am.a N 1 1 VOC S F
12:19:48 <_bjoern> am.a N 1 1 ABL S F
12:19:48 <_bjoern> ama, amae N (1st) F [XXXDO] lesser
12:19:49 <_bjoern> bucket; water bucket; (esp. fireman's bucket);
12:19:51 <_bjoern> am.a V 1 1 PRES ACTIVE IMP 2 S
12:19:53 <_bjoern> amo, amare, amavi, amatus V (1st) [XXXAO]
12:19:55 <_bjoern> love, like; fall in love with; be fond of; have a tendency to;
12:20:32 <_bjoern> I am looking for something like this.
12:20:54 <sbp> y'oughtta ask Arnia, he'll be likely to know
12:21:19 <sbp> look for "taggers" meanwhile
12:21:28 <sbp> they go through texts annotating words with their classes
12:23:03 <sbp> (so they probably come with databases you might be able to use)
12:25:17 <Arnia> You want pretagged corpora
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12:25:41 <Arnia> The most commonly used is probably the Penn Treebank
12:26:12 <Arnia> lots of libraries which read PTB files
12:26:23 <Arnia> lots of taggers too
12:27:02 <Arnia> .g probabilistic tagger
12:27:03 <phenny> Arnia: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/334781.html
12:27:11 <Arnia> .g probabilistic tagger library
12:27:12 <phenny> Arnia: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=991886.991913
12:27:21 <Arnia> .g probabilistic tagger program
12:27:22 <phenny> Arnia: http://www.english.bham.ac.uk/staff/omason/software/qtag.html
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12:45:38 <Arnia> _bjoern: see also http://nltk.org/doc/en/tag.html
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12:50:51 <_bjoern> I take it there is no good ready made one yet
12:50:53 <_bjoern> .ety research
12:50:54 <phenny> "1577, 'act of searching closely,' from M.Fr. recerche (1539), from O.Fr. recercher 'seek out, search closely,' from re-, intensive prefix, + cercher 'to seek for' (see search)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=research
13:01:01 <Arnia> _bjoern: ready made how? There are lots of tagger programs. Many many many
13:01:33 <Arnia> _bjoern: but to understand how to use them (and when they go wrong, why) you need to know at least a little about what theyd o
13:01:38 <Arnia> uh, they do
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13:09:54 <_bjoern> I am looking for a command line program where I pass, say, "act" and the program tells me this could be a verb (imperative, present subjunctive, infinitive, ...) or a noun (...)
13:10:18 <_bjoern> Your pointers did not immediately lead to such a program, for all that I could tell.
13:15:07 <Arnia> .g part of speech tagger software
13:15:08 <phenny> Arnia: http://nlp.stanford.edu/software/tagger.shtml
13:16:43 <Arnia> http://www.ims.uni-stuttgart.de/projekte/corplex/TreeTagger/
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13:41:00 <Monty2> yo Arnia_!
13:41:35 <sbp> Lewis leading the British GP...
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13:41:43 <sbp> first British driver to lead it since 2000, I think
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13:41:53 <sbp> well, to win, when he does
13:42:38 <sbp> whoo
13:48:55 <bjoern_> How many times did Schumacher win it?
13:49:16 <bjoern_> Or germans in general, compared to englishpeople?
13:52:37 <sbp> good question. I will check!
13:53:15 <bjoern_> Once the semweb takes off, we could find out with a one liner!
13:53:29 <sbp> Jim Clark and Alain Prost have won it the most times
13:53:36 <sbp> (UK and FR)
13:53:53 <bjoern_> frog brit pwnage
13:54:38 <sbp> UK 21-4 DE
13:54:40 <sbp> I count
13:54:48 <sbp> three of the DE ones by Schumacher
13:55:14 <bjoern_> That would have been my guess aswell.
13:56:04 * sbp worries about what the one liner would look like...
13:56:58 <sbp> .semanticweb query <http://www.w3.org/2010/01/05/grand-prix/05drivers/query> <http://purl.org/ab/cd/dc/ab/be/0.7/Drivers> ...
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14:57:49 <bjoern_> .c 0x20ac in decimal
14:57:50 <phenny> 0x20ac = 8 364
14:58:44 <bjoern_> .u ₪
14:58:44 <phenny> U+20AA NEW SHEQEL SIGN (₪)
14:58:44 <Monty2> "you"
15:00:15 <bjoern_> SQL for "exactly one of a,b is null"?
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15:09:18 <zachb> (a = NULL OR b == NULL) AND NOT (a = NULL AND b = NULL)
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15:10:31 <bjoern_> You need "is null" and I was looking for something more elegant.
15:10:43 <bjoern_> null != null
15:10:51 <sbp> man, Nadal two sets up to Federer
15:11:06 <zachb> w/e
15:11:11 <zachb> You got the point ;P
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15:32:28 <nslater> n5h: yo mah man, give us something for the topic
15:32:29 <n5h> which paper you reading? fuck not-scaring people.
15:32:35 <nslater> nevermind
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15:40:06 * nsh wishes his nose would stop leaking vital fluids
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15:45:47 <sbp> which fluid?
15:45:59 <sbp> how many decilitres?
15:47:17 <nsh> 96 percent of them
15:52:49 <bjoern_> Most of them are overrated anyway.
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16:14:14 <Arnia> It's the fluoridation
16:21:08 <deltab> bjoern_: a is null xor b is null
16:21:57 <deltab> hmm, mysql has xor, postgresql doesn't
16:22:13 <bjoern_> sqlite neither
16:22:21 <bjoern_> (http://sqlite.org/lang_expr.html)
16:22:58 <deltab> (a is null) <> (b is null)
16:24:12 <bjoern_> thanks
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16:30:17 <zachb> deltab: cleva
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16:54:37 <bjoern_> .u √
16:54:37 <phenny> U+221A SQUARE ROOT (√)
16:57:10 <sbp> U+221 A SQUARE ROOT
16:57:58 <bjoern_> I'm completing my magic string search sql stuffs, new list is 33 34 97 96 94 124 91 8730 (decimal and not yet complete)
16:58:18 <bjoern_> the last one is the square root
16:58:23 <sbp> ooh
16:58:44 <bjoern_> !"a`^|[√ is the string
16:59:06 <bjoern_> I kinda dislike having " in there, it's a bit too special
16:59:08 <sbp> heh, thanks. was just printing that
16:59:18 * sbp confirmz !"a`^|[√
16:59:20 * bjoern_ can do ALT+numpad
16:59:25 <sbp> NU
16:59:28 <sbp> I can do a similar thing
16:59:29 <bjoern_> so it was just a few keypress :)
16:59:35 <sbp> but I figured it might be quicker in python
16:59:49 <sbp> because I'd have to switch keyboard blah
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18:13:52 <zachb> what is !"a`^|[√ ?
18:15:43 <bjoern_> I want a short string that is encoded differently in very many encodings, that is a substring of a candidate.
18:31:22 <sbp> man, this men's final is absolutely insanely cool
18:31:47 <bjoern_> what are they finalizing?
18:32:12 <Alex> sbp: They're barely trying!
18:35:02 <spb> bjoern_: wimbledon
18:35:33 <sbp> bjoern_: “finalising”... ㋡
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18:41:35 <bjoern_> now running with only 7/8 bit encodings...
18:43:23 <bjoern_> Debug: Round 1, # of rows left: 1005504
18:43:23 <bjoern_> Debug: -------- new code point: 33
18:43:23 <bjoern_> Debug: ### of eliminated pairs: 4346
18:43:23 <bjoern_> Debug: Round 2, # of rows left: 449048
18:43:24 <bjoern_> Debug: -------- new code point: 34
18:43:26 <bjoern_> Debug: ### of eliminated pairs: 3842
18:43:28 <bjoern_> Debug: Round 3, # of rows left: 439328
18:43:30 <bjoern_> Debug: -------- new code point: 97
18:43:32 <bjoern_> Debug: ### of eliminated pairs: 3778
18:43:34 <bjoern_> Debug: Round 4, # of rows left: 436422
18:43:36 <bjoern_> Debug: -------- new code point: 96
18:43:38 <bjoern_> ...
18:44:20 <kpreid> anyone have a recommendation for a channel to ask a mac os x filesystem permissions question?
18:44:33 <bjoern_> end user or dev question?
18:46:07 <kpreid> end-user but possibly unixy. I'm not writing code but I'm using shells and multiple accounts
18:46:35 <nslater> kpreid: whats your question?
18:46:44 <kpreid> I just upgraded to Leopard
18:46:57 <kpreid> one of my accounts can now no longer read a folder it should be able to
18:47:11 <kpreid> I've looked at access flags and ACL and they don't say it shouldn't
18:47:39 <nslater> whats the permisions on the folder and user/group?
18:47:56 <nslater> output from "ls -l" would be good :)
18:48:36 <kpreid> drwxr-xr-- 34 kpreid admin 1156 Jul 4 10:03 External
18:48:40 <kpreid> that's the problem folder
18:48:48 <nslater> what account cant access it?
18:48:58 <kpreid> uid=504(eel) gid=504(eel) groups=504(eel),98(_lpadmin)
18:49:14 <nslater> there you go :) that account needs to be in the "admin" group
18:49:18 <kpreid> but this is even more bizarre: eel can 'ls' it, but can't cd into it
18:49:25 <kpreid> but the dir is world-reada...oh
18:49:31 <nslater> yeah, you're missing the x bit on the other part
18:49:38 <kpreid> okay, shoot me
18:49:40 <nslater> hehe
18:49:54 <kpreid> or whack me over the head with a unix manual
18:50:09 * nslater chmods kpreid 666
18:50:48 <kpreid> I wonder why the leopard installation caused this, though
18:51:10 <nslater> iirc os x upgrades run a permision correction script, it may have flagged that dir for correction for some reason
18:51:24 <nslater> you can do the same through the disk utility
18:52:02 <kpreid> but that only (used to?) affect things from installed packages
18:52:08 <nslater> yeah, I'm not too sure
18:52:10 <kpreid> and this dir is a dir I invented on my own
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18:54:02 <sbp> aw man, rain suspended play again
18:54:12 <sbp> not sure they'll be back out tonight
18:55:11 <nsh> :@@@@@:
18:55:37 <kpreid> nslater: thank you
18:55:43 <nslater> np
18:56:04 <nsh> what's tickin' clarky-cats?
18:57:35 * sbp watches Top Gear, wary though that the final may restart...
18:59:54 <nsh> final of whatnow?
19:00:40 <spb> wimbledon
19:00:44 <nsh> oh
19:00:47 <nsh> that one
19:00:52 <spb> two games all in the fifth set
19:01:06 <sbp> "it gave me some idea of what it would be like to park the moon" - Clarkson on a Bentley
19:01:12 <nsh> hehe
19:01:18 <nsh> if only he knew...
19:01:59 * nsh has snoturated 1.3 rolls of toilet paper with his left nostril today
19:04:04 <sbp> it has a sport button
19:04:13 <sbp> "that's as silly as putting a sport button on the Albert Hall"
19:05:36 * nsh imagines what a sport button does
19:06:06 <nsh> according to the majnashun enjin it makes the car unfold into a lacrose game
19:06:33 <sbp> "you've got to compare it to Edward Elgar. and he wouldn't do 185"
19:07:04 <nsh> .wik Edward Elgar
19:07:06 <phenny> "Sir Edward William Elgar, 1st Baronet, OM, GCVO (2 June 1857 – 23 February 1934) was an English Romantic composer." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Elgar
19:07:29 *** Enki-2 is now known as EnkiTTY-2
19:09:33 * bjoern_ does [[[
19:09:34 <bjoern_> SELECT "Debug: The code point isn't in: " || group_concat(name, ' ')
19:09:34 <bjoern_> FROM (SELECT 1 AS one), hasntcp$num INNER JOIN enc2num ON (encoding = num)
19:09:34 <bjoern_> GROUP BY one
19:09:36 <bjoern_> ]]]
19:09:47 * bjoern_ ... because SQlite won't let him group by 1
19:09:57 <bjoern_> calling 1 an aggregate function, oh well
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19:19:24 <bjoern_> Hmm I wonder when CPAN started using google analytics
19:20:16 <nsh> i am in real and grave danger of drowning in mucus-permiated tissue paper
19:20:17 <Monty2> mcscruff: what's tickin' clarky-cats?
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19:23:17 <sbp> play resumes!
19:23:30 <bjoern_> rezumez
19:25:45 <nslater> haha
19:25:59 <nslater> >>> from __future__ import braces File "<stdin>", line 1
19:25:59 <nslater> SyntaxError: not a chance
19:27:24 <deltab> bjoern_: you don't need a gorup clause for that
19:27:39 <bjoern_> alternative?
19:28:05 <deltab> leave it out, and aggregate the whole result set
19:28:23 <deltab> select count(*) from t
19:29:32 * bjoern_ isn't following
19:30:05 <deltab> you can use group_concat without grouping: it'll apply to all the rows
19:30:22 <bjoern_> Hmm, I will try that
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19:31:56 <bjoern_> nice
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19:50:05 <bjoern_> .c 0x27 in decimal
19:50:06 <phenny> 0x27 = 39
19:54:55 <bjoern_> deltab, ah, there seems to be a difference though, selecting from an empty table the grouping version generates an empty result, while your version generates a null value.
19:56:16 <deltab> I don't understand how that could be
19:56:53 <deltab> when you group an empty table the group won't have any more rows in it than an empty table
19:59:34 <bjoern_> but using group by you have a row per group, zero rows if the table is empty.
19:59:48 <bjoern_> whereas your version generates a single row always, no?
20:01:09 <bjoern_> select count(*) from (select 1 where 1 = 0), (select 1 as one);
20:01:09 <bjoern_> select count(*) from (select 1 where 1 = 0), (select 1 as one) group by one;
20:09:35 <sbp> Nadal breaks!
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20:13:19 <bjoern_> into pieces?
20:16:16 <deltab> bjoern_: ah
20:16:17 <sbp> Nadal wins!
20:16:30 <deltab> bjoern_: does that affect what you're doing?
20:16:48 <bjoern_> well it's just debug prints, so not really
20:20:59 <spb> boo!
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20:27:20 <sbp> longest singles' final in history
20:27:36 <spb> no apostrophe thar
20:28:45 <sbp> hmm, indeed. no anthropomorphisation
20:29:02 <sbp> well, it'd be metonymy
20:31:10 <sbp> .c ((5 * 24) - 1.6) * 60
20:31:11 <phenny> ((5 * 24) - 1.6) * 60 = 7 104
20:31:20 <sbp> Monty: remind me in 7104 minutes to watch Top Gear
20:31:20 <Monty2> sbp: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Fri Jul 11 19:56:22 BST 2008
20:31:52 <sbp> Monty: remind me in 7105 minutes to watch Top Gear. SRS PLS. ON VRY SOON KTHX
20:31:53 <Monty2> sbp: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Fri Jul 11 19:57:54 BST 2008
20:32:25 <bjoern_> Monty: remind me in 7101 minutes to sense that sbp should prepare to watch Top Gear
20:32:25 <Monty2> bjoern_: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Fri Jul 11 19:54:27 BST 2008
20:32:35 <sbp> heh, heh
20:32:39 <sbp> thx
20:32:46 <bjoern_> urwelcomz
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20:43:03 <chandler> Monty2: remind me in 7095 minutes to whinge about not being able to watch Top Gear except through somewhat shady sources
20:43:06 <Monty2> though, for geeks is probably come with python
20:43:16 <chandler> aw.
20:43:20 <chandler> Monty: remind me in 7095 minutes to whinge about not being able to watch Top Gear except through somewhat shady sources
20:43:21 <Monty2> chandler: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Fri Jul 11 19:59:22 BST 2008
20:45:34 <zachb> loggy: uri?
20:45:34 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-07-06#T20-45-34
20:45:42 <zachb> Monty: remind me in 92838 minutes to be surprised that you remembered to remind me! http://swhack.com/logs/2008-07-06#T20-45-34
20:45:44 <Monty2> meh, opera mobile, wirelessirc is fascinating.
20:45:56 <zachb> Monty: remind me in 9288 minutes to be surprised that you remembered to remind me! http://swhack.com/logs/2008-07-06#T20-45-34
20:45:58 <bjoern_> zwnbsp
20:46:00 <Monty2> Target somepeer-reviewed jurnal that take *time* to time and multiple accounts
20:46:06 <zachb> DAMMIT
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21:29:26 <nsh> n5h, facemy is complete fallpart
21:29:27 <n5h> when all music ever recorded can be embedded into a few simpler sentences. unfortunately most people aren't supposed to convert everyone who learns it to a mysterious ip address. it's too late to amend the paper?
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22:23:09 <Monty2> lo ja
22:30:09 <bjoern_> note to self: there are suggestions in the es4 wiki that various browser apis could accept generators in addition to function objects, like settimeout and addeventlistener. that is dangerous, don't do it.
22:38:28 <bjoern_> .gc +authoriative
22:38:29 <phenny> +authoriative: 13,100
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