00:08:22 <[bjoern]> phenny, tell sbp http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/07/unbreakable-fig.html - unfortunately they don't demonstrate wind resistance.
00:08:23 <phenny> [bjoern]: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
00:12:23 <[bjoern]> phenny, tell sbp http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/7505443.stm
00:12:24 <phenny> [bjoern]: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
00:14:24 <[bjoern]> .gc "Rechtsextreme Doofe"
00:14:26 <phenny> "Rechtsextreme Doofe": 40
00:14:30 <[bjoern]> .gc "Doofe Rechtsextreme"
00:14:31 <phenny> "Doofe Rechtsextreme": 0
00:34:28 <[bjoern]> bj0ern: necesse quod est?
00:34:30 <bj0ern> mid life hair cuts, i'd use s/(...)/f($1)/eg ..
00:59:12 *** JimJibber has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:04:51 *** ejot has quit ("Leaving")
01:11:13 *** MacTed (n=Thud@twentyfourmullen.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
01:13:31 *** zachb has quit (Remote closed the connection)
01:33:42 * Arnia decides Engadget wins the hair-tearing-out award for the day for comments threads
02:00:54 *** mzeltner (n=mzeltner@pool-71-190-28-33.nycmny.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
02:05:12 *** pixel_ (n=evitiell@74-130-194-182.dhcp.insightbb.com) has joined #swhack
02:05:13 <Monty> hi pixel_
02:08:00 <mzeltner> Monty didn't greet me.
02:08:07 <Monty> Which has helped me of poorly done. Because what was real estate agents trying to maintain that mean he keep them all uses, including payroll
02:08:41 <mzeltner> I'm sure Monty bought real estate in an imaginary place.
02:08:41 <Monty> K
02:54:54 *** TedThibodeauJr (n=Thud@twentyfourmullen.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
03:03:29 *** pixel_ has quit ()
03:03:53 *** MacTed has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
03:58:32 *** mzeltner has quit ()
04:00:26 <jsled> [[[ But the best part is, there are commenters on your blog post (and on others I've seen), that all say "don't feed the trolls!" Is that really the best you guys can do? Dude, fucking Miguel de Icaza himself links to this blog. He like fucking invented Gnome or something. Have you heard of him? You think he's a fucking idiot too? ]]] - http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/2008/07/dont-feed-trolls.html
04:00:28 <jsled> awesomes.
04:01:56 *** saml has quit ("leaving")
04:03:08 *** ja has quit ("leaving")
04:04:50 *** panni_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
04:05:29 *** spb_ (n=stephen@freenode/developer/exherbo.spb) has joined #swhack
04:09:14 *** spb has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
04:09:21 *** spb_ is now known as spb
04:13:30 <Arnia> "Wow. I must send the Guinness World Records guys an email because I think that's the longest version of "WORKS FOR ME!" that I've ever seen."
04:13:40 <jsled> heh
04:17:49 <jsled> If the left was clever they could undercut the right wing with http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0716/p06s02-woam.html
04:17:51 <jsled> .title
04:17:51 <phenny> jsled: Could an Obama win hurt Chávez? | csmonitor.com
04:19:23 <jsled> But they won't.
04:24:46 *** zachb (n=zachb@c-71-192-250-122.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
04:25:28 <zachb> Hey peoples?
04:26:31 <Arnia> Wow, maturity here:
04:26:33 <Arnia> "And yes, you're so brave because you post under the name "wingrunr21". Clearly, you are afraid of no man. Dumbass, the issue of anonymous posts has already been addressed in this blog's comments, and the result was YOU'RE A DUMBASS."
04:26:33 <jsled> hey?
04:26:47 <Arnia> So biting :p
04:26:53 * Arnia bites zachb
04:26:54 <jsled> Arnia: url?
04:27:00 <Arnia> http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/2008/07/k-pride.html
04:28:47 <nelix_> is that like white pride?
04:29:06 <Arnia> Yeah, but for FOSS
04:29:08 <zachb> Hey, Arnia: any good ideas for something to program in haskell? I tend to dive into languages like that, yet I notice how haskell has very distinct uses, and I'd like to do something that is haskell-like.
04:29:15 <zachb> Heh
04:29:26 * Arnia can't help but pronounce 'FOSS' as 'floss'
04:29:33 <jsled> hee hee [[[
04:29:34 <jsled> Radiohead (cool) collaborated with Google (cool) to create a music video using lasers (cool) and 3D scanning devices (cool) instead of cameras and then released some of the resulting data under a CC-license (cool) and put it up on Google Code (cool) to let the internets muck around with it (cool). With so much awesomeness, how could I possibly go to bed?
04:29:38 <jsled> ]]] - http://ano.malo.us/archives/radiohead-google-python
04:30:20 <Arnia> zachb: conceive of the most evil programming language possible and then write a compiler for it
04:30:37 <zachb> actually, that was my step 2
04:30:50 <Arnia> I always make perversity my step 1
04:31:12 <zachb> I started looking at some tutorial on making a basic Scheme, and I almost finished it
04:31:18 <zachb> then it stopped working, so I gave up on it ;p
04:31:54 <zachb> but it was mostly c/p'ing... (I typed it out by hand, though), I don't feel like I learned though
04:32:00 <zachb> Arnia: that's my step 0
04:32:16 <Arnia> zachb: E_NOT_A_NATURAL_NUMBER
04:32:29 <Arnia> right... hm... ooh, I know
04:32:50 <zachb> ooh, being erroneous is my step -1!
04:33:16 * Arnia raises zachb to the half
04:33:20 <Arnia> .title http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/HXT
04:33:22 <phenny> Arnia: HXT - HaskellWiki
04:33:27 <Arnia> oh, handy :p
04:33:32 * Arnia has bad luck with titles
04:33:42 <zachb> :P
04:34:15 <zachb> I'm liking it, BTW... I just don't feel that I know it at all, though
04:34:23 <zachb> err... double negative
04:34:36 <zachb> I think?
04:34:40 <Arnia> Actually, you probably know more than you think
04:34:45 <jsled> Wow. The Onion [News Network] has good production value. http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/07/fcc-explains-obscenity-laws.html
04:34:49 <Arnia> Haskell is a remarkably simple language
04:34:53 <zachb> Mm
04:35:03 <zachb> Like I got the syntax down pretty much
04:35:19 <zachb> although I'm confused with all the operators with either a < or > in them :P
04:35:44 <zachb> But the names of the builtins will get me, which is just something you get from time & tons of coding
04:35:45 <Arnia> It consists of two separate-but-related parts; the core language (which is a simple sugaring of lambda calculus) and the type language (which is a sugaring of a subset of System F)
04:36:22 <zachb> Hmm... makes sense
04:37:37 <zachb> ooh, interpreter!
04:37:52 <Arnia> The trick to understanding Haskell is to understand how these parts are related
04:38:29 <zachb> I'm getting the fact that its functional, and how to (ab)use this
04:39:00 <Arnia> Learn how to read type signatures, and you can actually understand a lot about what a function does. In a definite sense (a consequence of the Curry-Howard isomorphism), the type system defines (part of) the meaning of the functions
04:39:10 <zachb> Oh, I can
04:39:23 <zachb> for the most part, at least
04:39:36 <Arnia> (the Curry-Howard isomorphism states, in essence, that types : functions as theorems : proofs)
04:40:06 *** ja (n=c@c-98-216-15-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #swhack
04:40:47 <zachb> huhmm
04:40:53 <Arnia> In actual fact, it goes further and states that they are *the same thing*
04:41:19 <Arnia> A type is just a theorem, and a program is a constructive proof of that theorem
04:42:01 <Arnia> As well, in any topos logic, the Curry-Howard isomorphism holds.
04:42:37 <zachb> Wow... hmm
04:43:21 <Arnia> A monad is a scary word for a very simple idea; a structure built on another one which encapsulates internal properties
04:43:29 *** jessica has quit ()
04:44:14 <Arnia> Hence the slogan in category theory (where the concept of a monad comes from, although there it is often also called a triple, or a standard construction, for reasons which will become obvious shortly) that most structures of interest to maths as a whole are just monads.
04:44:33 <Arnia> A monad is pretty much defined as an 'interesting algebra'
04:44:45 <zachb> :-)
04:44:59 <Arnia> zachb: so, do you know what a monoid is?
04:45:41 <zachb> err... something that's like a monad?
04:45:55 <Arnia> No, monads are called monads because they are like monoids
04:46:01 <zachb> Damn
04:46:05 <aspect> the best article on monads I ever read was somewhere on sigfpe.blogspot.com, and tellingly titled something like "how you probably invented a monad yourself and didn't even realise it". Shortly before reading that I had needed a particular structure which I solved with an obvious construction I then discovered was a monad
04:46:16 <Arnia> aspect: indeed
04:46:18 <zachb> aspect: link?
04:46:39 <Arnia> aspect: I also like explaining them as spacesuits for structures and theorems (types) about those structures
04:46:39 <aspect> zachb: search for monads on that site. His other articles are excellent too, if a little less accessible
04:46:50 <aspect> spacesuits for structures is nice :)
04:47:00 <zachb> whose site?
04:47:55 <Arnia> aspect: the type multi-verse explanation tends to help people who think in types better
04:48:07 <Arnia> zachb: ah, you're in for a treat
04:48:10 <Arnia> Awesome site
04:48:47 <Arnia> Anyway, back to my pedagogical ramblings. A monoid is just about the simplest closed algebra you can construct.
04:49:05 <zachb> Arnia: which site?
04:50:11 <Arnia> A monoid M = (A, *, 1) is a set A together with a binary operator * :: A -> A -> A which has an identity element 1 :: A such that 1 * a = a * 1 = a for all a :: A
04:50:40 <Arnia> An example of a monoid is the integers under addition with an identity of 0
04:50:59 <Arnia> Or the monoid of lists on some other set
04:51:03 <zachb> k
04:51:17 <Arnia> (where the operator is ++ and the identity is [])
04:51:32 <Arnia> We'll return to the monoid of lists shortly.
04:51:37 <zachb> k
04:51:52 <Arnia> (oh, and aspect posted the address in what he said: sigfpe.blogspot.com )
04:52:15 <clsn> I think I found the article.
04:52:16 <Arnia> Remember how I said that monads are sometimes called 'triples' in the category theory literature?
04:52:42 <clsn> http://sigfpe.blogspot.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html
04:53:28 <zachb> I found it, from wikipedia
04:53:31 <zachb> Yeah?
04:53:50 <Arnia> Ok, the formal definition of a monad is as follows: A monad is a triple of a functor T, a natural transformation join and a natural transformation unit
04:54:40 <Arnia> such that unit acts like an identity and join is associative
04:54:44 <zachb> Ah
04:54:50 <zachb> That actually makes sense
04:55:51 <Arnia> So a monad is very like a monoid
04:55:56 <Arnia> Just generalised
04:56:09 <Arnia> Now T, as a functor, takes objects from one category to objects of another
04:56:28 <Arnia> However to be a monad, T has to be an endofunctor
04:56:34 <Arnia> (otherwise we cannot define unit)
04:56:42 <Arnia> That is a functor from a category to itself
04:56:47 *** danja__ (n=danny@host179-251-static.12-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
04:57:07 <zachb> ..okay
04:57:28 <Arnia> A functor is a transformation which preserves the essence of a structure
04:57:34 <zachb> thanks
04:58:19 <Arnia> By the essence of a structure I mean that a functor maps objects from the source category to objects of the target, and arrows of the source to arrows of the target preserving identity arrows and composition
04:58:55 <Arnia> (so if f is an identity arrow in C, then a functor F : C -> D must have F(f) be an identity)
04:59:15 <Arnia> A natural transformation between two functors is a family of functions (one for each object of the target category)
04:59:57 <Arnia> A natural transformation captures the idea of moving between structures of different kinds
05:00:22 <zachb> Arnia: sorry to stop you, but question: why are monads so important?
05:00:40 <Arnia> Two reasons, one theoretical and one practical
05:01:06 <Arnia> The theoretical reason is that pretty much everything of interest is a monad, and monads have lots of nice properties for their manipulation
05:01:18 <zachb> Yeah, but practically?
05:01:31 <Arnia> You can learn a lot about a structure just by knowing how it can be thought of as a monad
05:01:35 <clsn> K, im gonna have to read the rest of this convo in log or backscroll since I'm going to bed. but I probably will read it.
05:01:55 <Arnia> Practically, monads provide a wonderful abstraction for hiding inconvenient data
05:02:10 <zachb> loggy: uri?
05:02:10 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-07-16#T05-02-10
05:02:28 <zachb> *saves*
05:02:40 <Arnia> More than that though, they provide a wonderful abstraction for talking about manipulation of abstract structures such as computations
05:03:43 <Arnia> Take the IO monad which is just a form of state monad. It hides the state (notionally the entire real world) and threads it through, producing an imperative-style sequential semantics within a pure, amenable to formal reasoning language
05:04:03 <Arnia> The Maybe monad captures computations with failure
05:04:25 <zachb> hm
05:04:26 <Arnia> The List monad captures non-determinism
05:04:56 <Arnia> Also, not only are monads powerful but you can build monad transformers
05:05:03 <Arnia> These allow you to stack monads on other monads
05:05:16 <zachb> wow
05:05:47 <Arnia> So, you could take the IO monad, and add nondeterminism, state and error handling just by layering these transformers
05:06:14 <Arnia> (which is just a matter of adding the appropriate types and lifting operations from a lower level to a higher one where necessary)
05:06:26 <Arnia> .g Modular monadic interpreters
05:06:27 <phenny> Arnia: http://haskell.org/papers/modular-interpreters.ps
05:08:02 <zachb> Hmm
05:08:26 <Arnia> actually, I'm using a lot of tricks from that paper at the moment
05:08:47 <Arnia> Particularly, the idea of type-safe union types
05:08:58 <zachb> Wow, I feel bad, but I feel as if most of this is going over my head. I plan to read it again once I understand this a lot more. Although some of it making sense, I don't think enough is.
05:09:11 <zachb> I'm wasting your ramblin' juices
05:09:22 <Arnia> No you aren't. It is good practice
05:09:35 <Arnia> I intend to teach functional programming (amongst other things) eventually
05:10:23 <Arnia> Oh, here is another cool thing... probabilistic computations form a monad
05:10:25 <zachb> Heh, good luck, you'd be good at it
05:10:37 <Arnia> Moreover, it forms a monad which isn't dependent on the probabilities being classical
05:11:00 <Arnia> So you can easily swap in complex numbers or quaternions and get an exotic probability system
05:11:07 <Arnia> .g exotic probability theory
05:11:07 <phenny> Arnia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_probability
05:11:10 <zachb> Fun
05:11:38 <Arnia> Please tell me where I lost you though
05:13:06 <zachb> Back when you were talking about monoids & monads. Although I figured it out later, mostly. Now its just random bits that I don't understand
05:13:44 <Arnia> Time for a pithy diagram I think
05:13:54 <zachb> Heh
05:16:30 <zachb> I'm gonna get some rest. Sorry to leave you, but you can pretend I'm here and keep rambling if you want. ;P I'll be tomorrow, though, which will probably be better.
05:16:32 <Arnia> Or a Youtube lecture: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2007/09/the_catsters_on_youtube.html
05:16:52 <zachb> yay
05:17:46 <Arnia> I can highly recommend the Catster lectures
05:18:06 *** danja__ has quit ("Leaving")
05:18:26 *** danja (n=danny@host179-251-static.12-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
05:18:48 * Arnia actually prefers using arrows over monads for many things
05:19:22 <Arnia> not in theoretical terms, because monads have more structure, but as a programming abstraction I find I can think better when I'm using arrows
05:21:51 <Arnia> All monads are arrows but not all arrows are monads...
05:23:29 <[bjoern]> Good Morning Arnia
05:23:39 <Arnia> Good morrow [bjoern]
05:24:30 <Arnia> I'm continuing the good work of driving all those with low determination away from swhack. You have to have a particularly strong constitution or stubbornness to cope with my category theoretic drivel
05:24:57 <[bjoern]> I find ignoring you most unchallenging!
05:25:41 <Arnia> Aww, that's so sweet
05:26:59 <[bjoern]> :-)
05:56:32 *** cskaterun (n=cskateru@cpe-24-30-130-132.san.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
06:09:34 <aspect> Arnia: thank you. I missed much of that in realtime as I went off to collect my new glasses part way through, but the early parts and what I skimmed as I copied it into a text file just now were unusually well presented. I'll read back later once I've got over the excitement of being able to see again
06:14:16 <Arnia> hehe
06:19:16 <aspect> being without specs when you're -4.25/-4.50 is huge
06:19:36 <Arnia> fair enough
06:19:45 <Arnia> Glad you found it comprehensible though
06:22:42 <aspect> I found your explanation a lot more meaningful than most articles that try to start with the monad laws and then try to justify them. The stuff you glossed over "pretty much everything of interest is a monad" didn't make me feel frustrated and stupid, but like it's something I would be able to comprehend later. There's something about the way you assume intelligence or at least theoretical interest on the part of your audience that all those other guys
06:25:48 <aspect> and I look forward to watching the catsters :-)
06:42:23 *** ja has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
06:58:01 *** JimJibber (n=jim@81-86-174-182.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #swhack
07:08:15 *** KiYanWang (n=KiYanWan@62.172.77.66) has joined #swhack
07:08:18 *** KiYanWang has quit (Remote closed the connection)
07:09:14 *** KiYanWang (n=KiYanWan@62.172.77.66) has joined #swhack
07:10:53 *** jessica (n=jpallan@66.92.66.26) has joined #swhack
07:13:12 *** nsh (n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi) has joined #swhack
08:00:31 *** libby (n=libby@92.237.82.160) has joined #swhack
08:03:51 <xover> .title http://www.boingboing.net/2008/07/15/time-machine-needed.html
08:03:51 <phenny> xover: Time machine needed to get iPhone? - Boing Boing
08:14:17 *** nsh has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
08:14:25 *** nsh (n=nsh@eduroam-80.uta.fi) has joined #swhack
08:29:25 *** idickinson (n=ijd@nat/hp/x-08558492c13e4970) has joined #swhack
08:50:19 <nsh> .gs parsimonious *
08:50:20 <phenny> parsimonious *: explanation (15), trees (6), model (4), to assume (3), neurofuzzy (3), gem (3), explana (3), roget (2), regression (2), parameterisation (2)
08:50:31 <nsh> PEW PEW PEW PEW
09:02:04 <sbp> yo
09:02:04 <phenny> sbp: 00:08Z <[bjoern]> tell sbp http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/07/unbreakable-fig.html - unfortunately they don't demonstrate wind resistance.
09:02:06 <phenny> sbp: 00:12Z <[bjoern]> tell sbp http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/7505443.stm
09:04:05 <sbp> not suspicious?!
09:05:28 *** cre8radix (n=cre8radi@hlh91.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #swhack
09:05:52 <sbp> SUPER UMBRELLA
09:05:53 *** cre8radix has quit (Client Quit)
09:06:05 *** cre8radix (n=cre8radi@hlh91.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #swhack
09:06:26 <cre8radix> heya
09:07:31 *** cre8radix|off (n=cre8radi@hlh91.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #swhack
09:08:04 *** cre8radix|off is now known as cre8radix|tourin
09:15:41 <sbp> l is too tall
09:15:44 <sbp> they should make a half-l
09:15:57 <sbp> or perhaps phi height...
09:18:57 <[bjoern]> I shall disconnect now. Maybe reconnect later for a quickie.
09:19:00 <[bjoern]> yo sbp
09:19:34 <spb> just make a drop-l
09:19:36 <melbel> bye [bjoern] :/
09:21:03 <nsh> hingey-mouth, eh?
09:21:07 <sbp> [bjoern]: c'ya mang...
09:21:09 <nsh> had a cousin with that
09:21:15 <nsh> took a lot of corrective surgery
09:21:28 <nsh> bj0ern HAIBAI
09:21:29 <bj0ern> calc 7*(100-3) + 7
09:21:30 <Monty> bj0ern: 686
09:21:31 <bj0ern> sweet
09:21:31 <melbel> I don't want it corrected though
09:21:38 <sbp> yay, bj0ern!
09:21:39 <bj0ern> then empty list and bcc the others, phenny
09:21:48 <nsh> if you have double-hingey-mouth
09:21:58 <melbel> :\
09:22:00 <nsh> you can probably do some kinda jacob's ladder funness
09:22:00 <melbel> kinda
09:22:46 <nsh> {^^^^_+_^^^^}
09:22:59 * nsh isn't too sure about this Future Sound Of London
09:23:27 <nsh> sounds a little bit like the past sound of primordially evil slinky toys
09:23:41 <sbp> nsh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Golden_triangle_and_Fibonacci_spiral.svg
09:24:12 <nsh> scalable vector graphics are a government conspiracy
09:24:15 <nsh> i'll have no part in them,
09:24:26 *** JimJibber is now known as JibberJim
09:24:32 <nsh> wait
09:24:46 *** cre8radix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
09:25:00 <nsh> so when they gave me that-shaped hat at school, they were really bestowing on me the cabbalistic rennaisance secrets of gematria?!
09:25:01 <nsh> cool
09:25:10 <sbp> ehheh
09:25:12 <sbp> you didn't notice?
09:25:26 <nsh> i was all facing the corner and ting
09:25:30 <sbp> ah
09:25:37 <nsh> and there was this portal there that no-one else could see
09:25:40 <nsh> so was a little distracted
09:25:57 <sbp> did the portal... speak to you?
09:26:00 <nsh> but the things that vortex of ignobility told me...
09:26:05 <nsh> indjeed
09:26:24 <nsh> sufficeittosay, sufficeittosay.
09:26:33 <nsh> s/,/:
09:26:55 <nsh> someone should do a zooming Hoff-balls version of that picture
09:26:59 <nsh> I COMMAND IT
09:29:26 * nsh wonders whytf he has iTulip forums open in firefox
09:29:34 <nsh> that must be why it decided to restart itself
09:30:02 <nsh> "Our Forums contain more than 4,200 threads and 39,000 posts from the best and the brightest among our more than 8,000 registered community members from 78 countries. "
09:30:14 <sbp> get d8uv on it when he comes back
09:30:14 <nsh> that has to be a lie: there is simply not that much to say about tulips
09:30:25 <sbp> hmm, I think there is
09:30:30 <nsh> .gs best and brightest *
09:30:31 <phenny> best and brightest *: minds (7), minority (4), « (3), startups (3), origniate (3), interns (3), young (2), scientists (2), halberstam (2), graduate students (2)
09:30:40 <sbp> .wik Tulip
09:30:42 <phenny> "Tulipa commonly called Tulip is a genus of about 100 species of bulbous flowering plants in the family Liliaceae." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip
09:30:47 *** d3llboy has quit (Remote closed the connection)
09:30:53 <nsh> now the word bulbous on the other hand
09:30:57 <sbp> there's all the differences between the hundred you can talk about, for a start
09:30:57 <nsh> is a veritable spring of ages
09:31:01 <sbp> hehe
09:31:05 <sbp> .ety bulbous
09:31:06 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "bulbous". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=bulbous
09:31:08 <nsh> .gs bulbous *
09:31:08 <sbp> .ety bulb
09:31:09 <phenny> "1568, 'an onion,' from M.Fr. bulbe, from L. bulbus 'bulb, onion,' from Gk. bolbos 'plant with round swelling on underground stem.' Expanded by 1800 to 'swelling in a glass tube' (thermometer bulb, light bulb, etc.)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=bulb
09:31:10 <nsh> .gs bulb
09:31:11 <phenny> bulbous *: plants (10), rattail (8), urethra (7), bouffant (6), bougie (5), nose (4), nasal (4), iris (4), glandis (4), tree (3), to bobblovelies (3)
09:31:12 <phenny> Query must have one "*" exactly
09:31:12 <melbel> what about tulip trees?
09:31:21 <sbp> .wik Tulip tree
09:31:22 <phenny> "Liriodendron is a genus of two species of tree in the Magnoliaceae family, known under the common name Tulip tree." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_tree
09:31:28 <nsh> "tulip people"
09:31:31 <nsh> .gc "tulip people"
09:31:32 <phenny> "tulip people": 361
09:31:37 <melbel> two lipped people?
09:31:37 <sbp> .gs tulip *
09:31:39 <phenny> tulip *: bulbs (6), inn amsterdam (4), seeb (3), quilt (3), photography (3), paterswolde (3), bubble (3), westduin (2), vena cava (2), varna (2), time (2)
09:31:40 <melbel> so common, ignore them
09:31:46 <sbp> tulip seeb
09:31:48 <nsh> .wik Carna
09:31:48 <phenny> "Carna refers to two distinct women from Roman mythology." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carna
09:31:52 <nsh> .wik Varna
09:31:52 <phenny> "Varna (Bulgarian: Варна) is the largest city and seaside resort on the Bulgarian Black Sea Coast, third-largest in Bulgaria after Sofia and Plovdiv, and 80th-largest in the European Union, with a population of 357,418.[1]| The actual daily population, including [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna
09:31:56 * nsh can't type today
09:32:07 <nsh> like bulgaria's a real place..
09:32:08 <nsh> pft
09:32:16 <nsh> everybody's in on that joke
09:32:18 *** d3llboy (i=d3llboy@gateway/tor/x-ea5ecae6d2f35382) has joined #swhack
09:32:21 <nsh> but they won't trick me
09:32:31 <nsh> i know, the minute i start believing in Bulgaria
09:32:41 <nsh> 50 dudes will jump out, pointing and laughing at me
09:32:50 <nsh> i've seen it my dreams, and the vortex of ignobility
09:33:14 <melbel> n5h, make more sense please
09:33:15 <n5h> "in 1705, the whigs having obtained the ascendency
09:33:27 <nsh> n5h, 5c, more story pls
09:33:28 <n5h> pees :-). root around :-). jsled, that's more producing information. kpreid
09:33:47 * nsh roots around in n5h's tables
09:33:47 <melbel> lol
09:33:48 <n5h> a little impractical. in a freak yachting accident. yacht is perhaps the most rec. ent evolutions in the business of selling anything. people seem to think the mental gymnastics helped a lot of enabling technology that we may know how it will dial and connect them
09:34:12 * nsh practices mental yachtnastics on n5h
09:34:13 <n5h> may have a common origin. the 'mess' variety is quoted in the fridge. i'd eat an art if it was possible to hypotise a bunch of pages that show transformations between what a diagnostic projectile point is, budditsoundscool! someone was talking about wrt psychology
09:34:43 <nsh> I bet I could eat 100 arts
09:35:05 <melbel> can you hypnotise pages though?
09:36:26 <nsh> with the correct wand
09:36:36 <nsh> and possibly a length of twine
09:36:40 <nsh> that always comes in handy
09:37:31 <nsh> oh yeah: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/7505443.stm WTFF
09:39:08 *** [bjoern] has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
09:41:49 <sbp> .wik Neoteric
09:41:49 <phenny> "The Neoteroi (νεωτερικοί, Greek for 'new poets'), Neoterics or the Neoteric period refers to avant-garde poets and their poetry, specifically those Greek and Latin poets in the Hellenistic Period (323 BC onwards) who propagated a new style of Greek poetry, [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteric
09:42:12 <sbp> nsh: yeah, bjoern showeded me that
09:43:11 <melbel> how very ordinary, why even post that as news?
09:44:08 *** jeffarch has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
09:44:17 *** jeffarch (i=HydraIRC@170-215-220-57.nas1.glv.ny.frontiernet.net) has joined #swhack
09:46:10 *** jeffarch has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
09:46:30 *** jeffarch (i=HydraIRC@170-215-220-57.nas1.glv.ny.frontiernet.net) has joined #swhack
09:47:35 *** chris2 (n=chris@p5B16B7D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #swhack
09:49:08 <sbp> .gd theologaster
09:49:08 <phenny> theologaster: No definition found!
09:49:14 <sbp> .ety theologaster
09:49:14 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "theologaster". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=theologaster
09:49:17 <sbp> .gc theologaster
09:49:18 <phenny> theologaster: 2,630
09:49:35 <sbp> [Formed like poetaster: cf. F. théologastre.]
09:49:35 <sbp> A pretender or quack in theology. [R.] Burton.
10:05:41 *** dpawson (n=dpawson@dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #swhack
10:11:56 *** danja has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:33:37 *** Noia is now known as Midicronica
10:45:06 *** cre8radix|tourin has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
11:38:38 *** d3llboy has quit (Remote closed the connection)
11:39:16 *** d3llboy (i=d3llboy@gateway/tor/x-5069a4caacb5ed46) has joined #swhack
11:44:35 <nslater> this is interesting, http://autonomo.us/about/
11:44:41 <nslater> [[[
11:44:42 <nslater> autonomo.us is an independent group of hackers and activists. Many of us create network services. All of us are concerned about their effects on user freedom and autonomy. autonomo.us is designed as a forum to explore the problems and issues raised by network technologies.
11:44:46 <nslater> What does freedom mean for the users and developers of web services? What is at risk? What should the free and open source software community do to ensure that software, and its users, stay free in this new technological environment?
11:44:50 <nslater> ]]]
11:45:29 <nslater> I see the list of contributers includes MIT, FSF, CC, Novel.. and Aaron Swartz
11:45:59 <nslater> also:
11:46:01 <nslater> .title http://autonomo.us/2008/07/franklin-street-statement/
11:46:03 <phenny> nslater: Franklin Street Statement on Freedom and Network Services :: autonomo.us
11:47:53 <nslater> .title http://www.opendefinition.org/ossd/
11:47:54 <phenny> nslater: ossd - Open Knowledge Definition - Defining the Open in Open Data, Open Content and Open Information
11:48:06 *** dpawson has parted #swhack ("Don't follow me")
11:53:53 *** SinDoc (n=SinDoc@134.184.49.54) has joined #swhack
11:54:06 <nsh> AaronSw is too cool for autonomy
12:08:46 <Morbus> .calc 58327/2181617 * 100
12:08:47 <phenny> 58327/2181617 * 100 = 5832700/2181617 (approx. 2.6735673585235173)
12:08:50 * Morbus snighs.
12:11:33 *** SinDoc has quit (Remote closed the connection)
12:13:44 *** cre8radix (n=cre8radi@hlh91.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #swhack
12:14:18 *** cre8radix has quit (Client Quit)
12:14:30 *** cre8radix (n=cre8radi@hlh91.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #swhack
12:14:30 <Monty> But what does cre8radix have to do with the price of fish?
12:14:49 <cre8radix> i am the fishman
12:15:24 <cre8radix> Monty: what do you have to do with the price of sbp?
12:15:25 <Monty> gustaf: WOT! Conspiracy!
12:15:40 <aspect> .ety dispatch
12:15:41 <phenny> "1517, 'to send off in a hurry,' from Sp. despachar 'expedite, hasten,' probably opposite of O.Prov. empachar 'impede,' either from Gallo-Romance *impactare, frequentative of L. pingere 'dash against,' or ult. from L. pedica 'shackle' (see impeach)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=dispatch
12:16:00 <aspect> .ety despatch
12:16:00 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "despatch". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=despatch
12:16:20 <aspect> .gc dispatch
12:16:22 <phenny> dispatch: 46,100,000
12:16:24 <aspect> .gc despatch
12:16:24 <phenny> despatch: 8,360,000
12:19:57 <aspect> can anyone here get to a version of: http://ijl.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/7/4/307 ?
12:21:38 <TedThibodeauJr> ``This item requires a subscription* to International Journal of Lexicography Online.``
12:21:48 *** TedThibodeauJr is now known as MacTed
12:22:12 <aspect> yes, I just figured with the language geeks here someone might have access to an institution with a subscription :-)
12:22:37 <aspect> I'm trying through my university library's proxy now .. should have done that first
12:22:46 <aspect> no good :(
12:23:06 <aspect> thanks for trying :)
12:23:46 <MacTed> sure ... tho a better question might have been "does anyone have subscription/free access to the Oxford Journals Online Archive" (which I'd have known to answer "not it")
12:24:12 <MacTed> anyway -- time to commute.
12:24:16 *** MacTed has quit ()
12:24:32 <sbp> aspect: I tried, but my library is switching schemes
12:24:43 <sbp> it used to use a cookie based system, and is switching over to proxying
12:24:54 <sbp> all the old cookie based sites seem not to be working for some annoying reason
12:26:04 <aspect> MacTed: though you're gone, I wasn't sure there isn't another copy of the same article stored elsewhere
12:27:10 <aspect> a shame; my friend and I are miffed by the use of "despatch" in a form-email at work and it would be most entertaining to complain about it with such a reference to hand
12:27:34 <plum> so long, and thanks for all the fish
12:27:37 *** plum has quit (Remote closed the connection)
12:55:35 *** andersfeder has quit ("Leaving.")
13:00:17 *** idickinson has quit ("Leaving.")
13:07:51 <sbp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008
13:07:55 <sbp> rather a good news summary
13:08:06 <sbp> checking that every month might be much better than reading daily news
13:12:42 <nsh> much more economical, at least
13:13:15 <nsh> International year of Planet Earth's Potato-Sanitation Languages
13:14:09 <nsh> HOLY SHIT IT GOES INTO THE FUTURE
13:14:31 <sbp> note how it lists Deaths but not Births
13:14:43 <sbp> kinda silly that it doesn't list people it thinks are notable Births
13:14:59 <sbp> surely Wikipedia must be able to predict future statesmen and athletes by now?
13:15:11 <sbp> especially since most of them seem to be brothers or wives or sons of existing ones...
13:15:26 <sbp> it's all just one big clusterfuck with those celebrities
13:15:54 <clsn> That'd have to be on Wikileaks, since the Overloads of Big Entertainment don't generally release that information.
13:15:54 <nsh> yeah...
13:15:58 *** cre8radix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:16:03 <nsh> .wik Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao
13:16:03 <phenny> "The Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao (abbreviated ARMM) is the region of the Philippines that is composed of all the Philippines' predominantly Muslim provinces, namely: Basilan, Lanao del Sur, Maguindanao, Shariff Kabunsuan, Sulu and Tawi-Tawi, and the [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Region_in_Muslim_Mindanao
13:16:16 <nsh> alright, i'll let that one pass
13:16:30 <nsh> whoa, there's a formula zero!?!
13:16:34 <nsh> .wik Formula Zero
13:16:34 <phenny> "The 2008 Formula Zero Championship is the world's first hydrogen fuel cell race series." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Zero
13:16:39 <nsh> (please let it be on ice)
13:16:50 <nsh> i suppose that'd be formula subzero
13:17:03 <clsn> .wik Jewish Autonomous Oblast
13:17:07 <phenny> "Jewish Autonomous Oblast (Russian: Евре́йская автоно́мная о́бласть, Yevreyskaya avtonomnaya oblast; Yiddish: ייִדישע אווטאָנאָמע געגנט, yidishe avtonome gegnt[1]|) is a federal subject of Russia (autonomous oblast) [...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast
13:17:46 <clsn> Oblast sounds like a kind of blood cell.
13:17:52 <nsh> .wik Integrated Truss Structure
13:17:53 <phenny> "The Integrated Truss Structure forms the backbone of the International Space Station, with mountings for unpressurized logistics carriers, radiators, solar arrays, and other equipment." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Truss_Structure
13:18:08 <nsh> wait, it can't form the backbone if they haven't put it space yet
13:18:25 <sbp> ice yacht racing is awesome
13:19:12 <nsh> srs shortage of religious holidays in july
13:19:15 <nsh> for realz
13:19:34 <nsh> Saint Cyril and Methodius, pft
13:19:58 <sbp> "This article is largely based on an article in the out-of-copyright 11th edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica, which was produced in 1911." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_yachting
13:20:07 <sbp> Joshua Reynolds was born on this day
13:20:08 <nsh> [[[ # Isaac Asimov's 1955 short story Franchise takes place in 2008, the premise being that the U.S. president will be selected by a computer program looking for the "most representative citizen". ]]]
13:20:10 <clsn> Seventeenth of Tammuz is coming up on Sunday though. Not a really happy holiday.
13:20:13 <sbp> heh, yeah
13:20:15 <nsh> how did he know... :-/
13:20:21 <clsn> I remember that story.
13:20:26 <clsn> .wik seventeenth of tammuz
13:20:28 <phenny> "The Seventeenth of Tammuz (Hebrew: שבעה עשר בתמוז, Shiv'ah Asar b'Tammuz) is the seventeenth day on the Hebrew month of Tammuz." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_of_Tammuz
13:20:37 <clsn> Thank you captain obvious.
13:21:52 <nsh> <Captain Obvious> you have just thanks me.
13:21:55 <nsh> *thanked
13:22:18 <sbp> did Captain Obvious make the typo, or was it nsh?
13:22:51 <sbp> I suppose if it were Captain Obvious, he would have done:
13:22:55 <sbp> <Captain Obvious> *thanked
13:23:45 <nsh> hrmm
13:24:12 <sbp> Captain Ytpo
13:24:13 * nsh wonders if the extensive use of gravity-assist by human space probes could destabalise the solar system
13:24:17 <nsh> and destroy us the alls
13:24:21 <nsh> this would be cool
13:24:26 *** saml (n=saml@pool-71-249-69-95.nycmny.east.verizon.net) has joined #swhack
13:24:34 <sbp> the space probes would have to be pretty gigantic
13:24:42 <sbp> random comets and asteroids don't fuck things up much
13:24:50 <nsh> they're part of the system though
13:25:06 <saml> how did you successfully internationalized your python application using babel?
13:25:23 <sbp> it doesn't use babel
13:25:29 <nsh> do you have a virgin ram available?
13:25:30 <sbp> it uses the Google Translation API
13:25:34 <sbp> and the source code is fully available
13:25:43 <sbp> http://inamidst.com/phenny/modules/translate.py
13:25:46 <nsh> you will also require a ceremonial dagger
13:26:00 <sbp> a kukri, or however you spell that?
13:26:06 <sbp> .wik Kukri
13:26:07 <phenny> "The khukuri (Devanāgarī: खुकुरी) is a heavy, curved Nepalese knife used as both tool and weapon." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kukri
13:27:01 *** MacTed (n=Thud@63.119.36.36) has joined #swhack
13:27:38 <nsh> MESSENGER made a flyby of Mercury on 14 January 2008 (closest approach 200 km above surface of Mercury at 19:04:39 UTC)
13:27:40 <nsh> that's pretty nuts
13:27:49 * nsh wonders what velocity it had
13:27:57 <sbp> Mercury's a lot smaller
13:28:05 <sbp> so you can get a lot closer without smacking into it
13:28:12 <sbp> but also, 200 km is quite a way
13:28:18 <sbp> it'd be even considered low earth orbit, I think
13:28:37 <sbp> I mean, you'd get quite a parabola out of it even with a scramjet
13:29:27 <nsh> (swotshesed)
13:30:04 <sbp> ALRIGT
13:30:07 <sbp> LET'S WORK THIS OUT
13:30:16 <sbp> r = h + Rm
13:30:18 <sbp> h = 200 km
13:30:37 <sbp> Mean radius 2,439.7 ± 1.0 km[3][4]
13:30:37 <sbp> 0.3829 Earths
13:30:39 <sbp> - Wikipedia
13:30:48 <nsh> .wik Scarp
13:30:48 <phenny> "Scarp, Scotland, an island in the Outer Hebrides of Scotland" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarp
13:30:55 <sbp> .c 2439.7 + 200
13:30:55 <phenny> 2 439.7 + 200 = 2 639.7
13:31:02 <nsh> .wik Escarpment
13:31:02 <sbp> so r = 2639.7 km
13:31:02 <phenny> "In geomorphology, an escarpment is a transition zone between different physiogeographic provinces that involves a sharp, steep elevation differential, characterized by a cliff or steep slope." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escarpment
13:31:18 <sbp> speed is:
13:31:33 <sbp> v = sqrt(G m-mass / r)
13:31:47 <sbp> .c G * mass of mercury
13:31:48 <phenny> gravitational constant * mass of Mercury = 2.2034246e13 m3 / s2
13:31:52 <sbp> radcakes
13:32:09 <sbp> .c (2.2034246e13 m3 / s2) / 2639.7 km
13:32:09 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, no result.
13:32:14 <sbp> failcakes
13:32:22 <nsh> wordtrue
13:32:28 <sbp> .c (G * mass of mercury) / 2639.7 km
13:32:29 <phenny> (G * mass of Mercury) / (2 639.7 km) = 8 347 253.85 m2 / s2
13:32:48 <sbp> .c ((G * mass of mercury) / 2639.7 km) in km / s
13:32:49 <phenny> sbp: Sorry, no result.
13:32:52 <nsh> (btw, you're working out the velocity of a circular orbit at that height; flyby will have been significantly higher)
13:33:02 <sbp> yeah, I know
13:33:08 * nsh thought so
13:33:49 <sbp> man, why is it giving me units of wank?
13:34:58 <sbp> presumably m2 / s2 cancels out to m / s?
13:35:12 <sbp> .c sqrt(8347253.85 / 1000)
13:35:13 <phenny> sqrt(8 347 253.85 / 1 000) = 91.3633069
13:35:24 <sbp> that doesn't sound right
13:36:30 <nsh> numbers hurt nsh brain today
13:36:54 <sbp> oh
13:37:01 <sbp> .c sqrt((G * mass of mercury) / 2639.7 km)
13:37:02 <phenny> sqrt((G * mass of Mercury) / (2 639.7 km)) = 2 889.16144 m / s
13:37:21 <sbp> so 2.9 km/s
13:37:25 <sbp> which sounds most reasonable
13:37:38 <sbp> .c 2889.16 m/s in mph
13:37:39 <phenny> 2 889.16 (meters / second) = 6 462.86686 mph
13:38:44 <nsh> looks korek
13:38:57 <nsh> Oll Korek
13:39:09 <sbp> we could totally orbit planets with our knowledge
13:39:19 <nsh> which my Big Book of Amazing Facts told me was how some american president came up with OK
13:39:25 <nsh> i remember being seven and dubious
13:39:37 <sbp> yeah
13:39:49 <sbp> oll korrect is the korrect etymology though, oddly
13:40:01 <sbp> but only popularised by the president
13:40:26 <nsh> hmm
13:40:33 <nsh> well whadjaken
13:40:55 <sbp> https://www.courses.psu.edu/aersp/aersp055_r81/orbits/orbits.html
13:41:00 <sbp> - where I got the equation from, by the way
13:41:35 <nsh> you didn't consult the vortex!?
13:41:42 <nsh> they DECIEVED you have been!
13:42:29 <nsh> .ety rasp
13:42:29 <phenny> "c.1300, 'to scrape,' from M.Du. raspen, O.Fr. rasper 'to grate, rasp,' from a W.Gmc. source (cf. O.E. gehrespan) akin to the root of raffle (q.v.)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=rasp
13:42:35 <nsh> .ety raffle
13:42:35 <phenny> "c.1386, from O.Fr. rafle 'dice game,' also 'plundering,' perhaps from a Gmc. source (cf. M.Du. raffel 'dice game,' O.Fris. hreppa 'to move,' O.N. hreppa 'to reach, get,' Ger. raffen 'to snatch away, sweep off'), from P.Gmc. *khrap- 'to pluck out, snatch off.' The [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=raffle
13:43:05 <nsh> brings whole new meaning to my father's entreatment that i ought raffle myself
13:45:23 <sbp> http://messenger.jhuapl.edu/news_room/MercuryFlyby1PressKitFINAL_1_10_08.pdf has some speeds
13:45:26 <sbp> but not the one we're after
13:47:36 * nsh will hax it from the subethanet
13:49:04 <sbp> [[[
13:49:04 <sbp> MESSENGER was expected to swing by Mercury at a speed of about 16,000 mph (25,749 kph) and use the planet's gravitational pull to slow down by about 5,000 mph (8,046 kph).
13:49:11 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080114-messenger-flyby-wrap.html
13:59:32 *** ejot (n=magnus@pub66-139.public.vxu.se) has joined #swhack
13:59:33 *** kpreid has quit ()
13:59:34 *** kpreid (n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
14:10:05 *** saml has quit ("leaving")
14:11:37 <nsh> hmmm
14:11:44 <nsh> cool
14:13:14 <nsh> but that makes me wonder, because it requires still a second velocity-reducing flyby, and even after that will orbit highly eccentrically, meaning it'd still be going much faster than circular orbit velocity at its closest point (again 200km)
14:13:27 <nsh> so i wonder if we overestimated the velocity a little
14:14:11 <clsn> Well, remember we read the other day about that earth-orbit asteroid whose name I forget, that's in orbital resonance with earth? And every few hundred years they fly by and exchange momentum?
14:14:24 <clsn> And the earth's orbit shifts by like 1.3cm...
14:14:58 <clsn> .g asteroid orbital resonance earth
14:14:59 <phenny> clsn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_resonance
14:15:00 <Monty> ughhh how could undercut the field!"
14:15:30 <clsn> phenny, "matalii ja mustii"?
14:15:30 <phenny> clsn: "low-and-ink" (fi to en, translate.google.com)
14:15:31 <nsh> Monty, that's what i was afraif of
14:15:33 <Monty> copulating males!
14:15:48 <clsn> I heard it was "sad and mournful" but okay.
14:16:14 <nsh> accents maybe
14:17:40 <nsh> no accents, apparantly
14:19:08 <clsn> Whatever
14:19:25 <nsh> i don't think they're proper finnish words
14:19:38 <nsh> or their inflected weirdly
14:19:41 <sbp> .gs Les astres de *
14:19:43 <phenny> Les astres de *: douala (22), ta vie influaient (3), laurent firode (3), feu (3), bourbon (3), peur tremblans (2), nombreuses fois (2), madame toutou (2), lumiÃre (2)
14:19:49 <nsh> matala is low
14:19:55 <nsh> and musta is dark
14:19:59 <nsh> (black)
14:20:32 * clsn ran the lyrics to Matalii ja Mustii through Google API. Um. Weird.
14:22:06 <clsn> Lemme get a screenshot, which might be somehow easier than actually capturing the text.
14:22:52 <nsh> clsn: http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3530822107858565475
14:23:29 <nsh> okies
14:25:01 <clsn> Yeah but isn't it more fun to ask a faulty translation system?
14:25:49 <clsn> Wherez an image pastebin I should use?
14:25:50 <nsh> pl(total)
14:25:54 <nsh> .g imagebin
14:25:55 <phenny> nsh: http://imagebin.org/
14:26:27 <sbp> clsn: photos.cx is the Swhack favourite
14:27:15 <clsn> Who am I to argue with swhack favoritism?
14:29:34 <clsn> wtf? lemme try again.
14:30:39 <clsn> I upload it, and get redirected to a page saying "whoops that image is no longer available"
14:31:05 <nsh> weak
14:31:10 <sbp> at photos.cx?
14:32:53 <nsh> meh, i goes hoem nao
14:33:06 *** nsh has quit (Client Quit)
14:47:41 *** clsn has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:48:19 *** clsn (n=shoulson@pi.meson.org) has joined #swhack
15:05:45 <clsn> So, having listened to it at slow speed, I have determined among other things that Finnish speakers tend to drop final -n's, or maybe just nasalize.
15:05:46 *** nwalsh (n=ndw@97-81-36-117.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com) has joined #swhack
15:07:35 *** chris2_ (n=chris@p5B169A21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #swhack
15:09:49 *** chris2 has quit (Nick collision from services.)
15:10:07 *** chris2_ is now known as chris2
15:17:06 *** RichiH (i=richih@freenode/staff/richih) has joined #swhack
15:18:26 <RichiH> hi all. did MoiraA tell anyone in this channel that he was freenode staff? either now or in the past?
15:18:43 <MoiraA> fuck sake
15:18:53 <clsn> Dunno... I suppose you could check the logs.
15:21:05 <Tene> http://www.reddit.com/info/6rzcj/comments/
15:21:07 <MoiraA> RichiH please
15:21:15 <MoiraA> every fucking channel suddenly highlighting me
15:21:22 <MoiraA> don't do that
15:22:12 <Tene> RichiH: why?
15:23:44 <RichiH> Tene: something that was mentioned, but it seems to be sorting itself out, now
15:24:59 <clsn> Oh, OK. That narrows it down then.
15:25:44 <sbp> RichiH: welcome. this is a publically logged channel
15:25:53 <sbp> RichiH: you might want to speak to tomaw about this matter
15:27:07 *** lordi (n=hannes@sedanet0.sedan.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE) has joined #swhack
15:28:15 <RichiH> spb: in that case, don't speak about assasination in the topic :p
15:28:45 <spb> wat
15:29:35 <jeanniecool> RIP, Bjoern.
15:29:38 <spb> RichiH has either mistabbed or is falling into the old trap
15:29:49 <sbp> I vote old trap
15:30:02 <MoiraA> I can't believe he hadn't heard sbp
15:30:09 <MoiraA> I'm so sorry
15:30:10 <MoiraA> RichiH please
15:30:15 <MoiraA> it's history
15:30:22 <MoiraA> ask tomaw and JonothanD
15:30:23 <spb> it does sort of look that way
15:31:05 *** d3llboy has quit (Remote closed the connection)
15:31:48 <sbp> RichiH: give us a +P whilst you're here, would you?
15:32:21 <spb> haha
15:32:45 <sbp> if he's confused, might as well take advantage
15:33:00 <clsn> If he's confused, at least he's in the right place for it.
15:33:05 <clsn> I know I am confused.,
15:33:13 <clsn> No confusion about my state of confusion.
15:33:42 <MoiraA> what is +P
15:33:47 <MoiraA> sbp: sorry
15:33:49 <sbp> it's the Flag of Irony
15:33:58 <sbp> you only get it when you don't need it
15:34:12 <sbp> i.e. when you've surpassed a certain ironic limit
15:34:13 <MoiraA> I didn't mean to bring this in here
15:34:38 <sbp> the fact that it's called +P rather than +I just adds to the whole "air"
15:36:21 <sbp> hmm. the fact that we don't have +P might be regarded as a meta-irony
15:36:31 <sbp> but if we did have one that could be both an irony and a meta-meta-irony
15:36:33 <nslater> wtf
15:36:52 <nslater> who is RichiH and what is going on in here?
15:37:02 <clsn> Is there a daily requirement of meta-iron? Do you get meta-anæmic if you don't get enough?
15:37:04 <spb> confusion
15:37:05 <spb> as always
15:37:19 <clsn> nslater: I bet I'm more confused than you are, so nyah.
15:37:20 <sbp> I'm trying to prestidigitate a mode out of some mark
15:37:27 <spb> wait, he won't see that, will he
15:37:32 <spb> someone tell him that it's confusing
15:37:34 *** ejot has quit ()
15:37:40 <RichiH> nslater: atm, i am thinking of ways to make fun of spb
15:37:47 <spb> sif
15:37:49 <RichiH> which is what i usually do
15:38:16 *** panni_ (i=hannes@ip-88-152-22-213.hsi.ish.de) has joined #swhack
15:38:22 <nslater> oh thats easy, you just post links of those "candid" photos we all found a while back
15:38:28 * Arnia looks strange
15:38:34 <Arnia> ih, +ly
15:38:47 <nslater> nah ah, you said strange first
15:38:55 <jeanniecool> SPB + SBP == my head spinning
15:39:05 <nslater> oh wait
15:39:07 <spb> jeanniecool: good, isn't it
15:39:17 <clsn> jeanniecool: I hadn';t noticed, and you shouldn't either. Treat them as interchangeable.
15:39:19 <nslater> spb is active in here? I have him on ignore
15:39:26 <spb> lol at failure again
15:39:39 * nslater checks to logs to see if it helps him make any more sense of the backscroll
15:39:46 <nslater> loggy: pointer
15:39:46 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-07-16#T15-39-46
15:39:49 <sbp> doubt it
15:39:50 <RichiH> as spb is red and sbp is green, they are easy to keep apart
15:39:52 <spb> (he ignores me because sbp + spb confuses him, then gets even more confused when i talk and he can't see it)
15:39:59 <Arnia> Who is RichiH then?
15:40:00 <spb> (and i find this hilarious)
15:40:01 <nslater> RichiH: not if you use a proper client
15:40:16 <sbp> Arnia: dude who won't proffer the ancient and noble right to +P unto our bold magnificence
15:40:26 <RichiH> nslater: i would argue that a client without nick colors (or a script to do it) is not proper
15:40:28 <Arnia> Everyone is peach to me... I like peaches, they're good.
15:40:32 <jeanniecool> Well, the head spinning is kinda enjoyable - but it could make me hurl if it goes on too long.
15:40:42 * Arnia distributes apricots because he has run out of peaches
15:40:54 * jeanniecool gets Peaches in her head
15:41:04 <RichiH> sbp: the thing is that either you are so small that you would need it and thus not deserve it or that you are large enough that you don'tneed it
15:41:15 <RichiH> it is useful for staff work, but not for normal channels
15:41:16 <sbp> yes, that's why we deserve it
15:41:23 <RichiH> it is vanity if channels want it
15:41:23 <sbp> because we're the most Ironic Channel on Freenode, I believe
15:41:29 <sbp> irony
15:41:30 <clsn> My client does nick colors, but colors 'em both the same anyway.
15:41:34 <RichiH> freenode, not Freenode
15:41:34 <Arnia> We're the most bizarre at any rate
15:41:40 * jeanniecool could never ignore SeanB
15:41:53 <sbp> .title http://freenode.net/
15:41:54 <phenny> sbp: About the Network
15:41:55 <nslater> RichiH: #fsf and #gnu have it
15:41:58 <clsn> All is vanity.
15:41:59 <sbp> .title http://www.freenode.net/
15:42:01 <phenny> sbp: About the Network
15:42:08 <nslater> if #fsf have it we should too
15:42:10 <sbp> interesting. Google has "Freenode" as the title of that page
15:42:19 <nslater> we're bigger than #fsf to boot
15:42:21 <spb> freenode is properly spelt with a lowercase 'f'
15:42:31 <spb> but this causes problems when you want to capitalise an entire sentence
15:42:43 <nslater> sbp: it is probably taking the title from the ODP
15:42:43 <sbp> but even in the cached version the title is "About the Network"
15:42:52 * jeanniecool trusts SeanB to fix everything, and blithely carries on with her day
15:43:00 <sbp> could be. or a prevalence of inbound link texts
15:43:14 <nslater> nah, google will take titles and descriptions from the ODP by default if they exist
15:43:15 <Arnia> .g +P
15:43:16 <phenny> Arnia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus
15:43:18 <RichiH> nslater: i don't mind a channel having it per se, but i don't think it is useful, either
15:43:21 <Arnia> hm
15:43:24 <nslater> unless you add a special link thingy
15:43:29 <Arnia> RichiH: who cares about useful?
15:43:31 <sbp> of course it's not useful. that's the point of having it!
15:43:37 <RichiH> as i said, the channels who would need it don't merrit it and the others don't need it
15:43:40 <RichiH> Arnia: /me
15:43:42 <sbp> an æsthetic commodity
15:43:44 * clsn doesn't trust sbp to fix a dog that was already neutered.
15:44:22 <clsn> Are we trying to spell something out with our flags maybe?
15:44:30 <Arnia> RichiH: but useful is so bland and lacking in creativity. Anyone can do useful. It takes a genius to really fuck things up
15:44:48 <RichiH> Arnia: or a hammer
15:45:03 <Arnia> No, the problem with hammers is that the often fix things
15:45:16 <Arnia> The moment you fix something you fail
15:45:27 <Arnia> There is an art to a catastrophe
15:45:40 <Arnia> mmm... cats
15:45:40 <RichiH> Arnia: only if they are misused
15:45:50 * Arnia gets distracted by category theory again
15:46:02 <sbp> I had an avant garde hammer once
15:46:24 <Arnia> sbp: interpretative carpentry?
15:46:33 <sbp> well it was a mindfuck
15:46:38 <sbp> the head kept flying off
15:46:49 <sbp> and the only way to properly reattach it was to hammer it back on
15:46:59 <Arnia> Ooh, irony
15:47:05 <sbp> see? we rule at it
15:48:07 <Arnia> Is it more ironic if you also make the thing out of iron?
15:48:14 <spb> no, that's ferrous
15:48:35 <sbp> what if you made it out of steel? steely?
15:48:41 <Arnia> Ferociously ironic?
15:48:58 <clsn> .title http://the-minusworld.com/2008/06/16/5-lego-video-games-that-will-never-happen/
15:48:58 <procto> it's ironic if you iron it?
15:48:59 <phenny> clsn: 5 LEGO Video Games That Will Never Happen : : The -Minus World : Your Distinguished Source For Video Game Comedy
15:49:07 <clsn> I didn't see enough of the movies to truly appreciate them though.
15:49:18 <sbp> clsn: bleh, this is just based on ZP I'll bet
15:49:31 <clsn> Could be; I never watch ZP.
15:50:26 <sbp> they should make a hammer out of alum
15:51:14 <procto> clsn: it's... just not very funny. why? because it's too easy, there are many movies that wouldn't make any KIND of good game.
15:51:51 <clsn> That's true also. Seems to me they could have done it better, too, even if/though/because it's so easy.
15:52:41 <Arnia> I use LEGO to explain natural deduction sometimes
15:52:47 <procto> someone in my semantic class did his final work on the semantics of humor
15:52:52 <procto> semantics*
15:53:28 <procto> I only caught the 2nd half of his presentation (walked for 30 mins through half a meter of snow to even make it that early)
15:53:35 <procto> but it was pretty cool
15:53:37 <clsn> There's a bizarre SF story (Asimov?) about the origins and purposes of humor...
15:53:51 <procto> there was a show on NPR about humor, uh, yesterday
15:54:12 <procto> but it seems that over the past few weeks NPR has chosen to only have utterly banal interviewees
15:54:31 <procto> couldn't listen to it past the first 5 mins
15:54:31 <Arnia> Like badgers?
15:54:47 <Arnia> And the assassin we've hired for bjoern
15:55:18 <sbp> .title http://m.assetbar.com/achewood/uuafFh5FM
15:55:21 <phenny> sbp: Yo Mama's So Fat
15:55:24 <sbp> - this is all you need to know about the semantics of humour
15:55:41 <clsn> That seltzer is funny?
15:55:57 <Arnia> alka
15:56:45 <clsn> Found it. At least its WP article.
15:58:01 <clsn> I wonder if YouTube has a clip of "Make 'em Laugh" from Singing in the Rain. Also good as representative humor.
15:58:18 <clsn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokester_(short_story)
15:59:02 *** Schroeder (i=1000@unaffiliated/unclejimbob) has joined #swhack
16:00:43 * Arnia pours monadic battery acid on clsn
16:00:51 <clsn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW02c5UNGl0
16:02:45 <procto> to summarize what I learned during the presentation is that humor can be wildly generalized into:
16:02:52 <sbp> .title
16:02:53 <phenny> sbp: YouTube - Singing in the Rain
16:02:55 <procto> premise -> advancement of premise -> neation of premise
16:03:01 <procto> negation*
16:03:19 <sbp> Let us consider that your mama is not fat.
16:03:23 <sbp> Your mama is not fat.
16:03:32 <sbp> Your mama, contrary to my previous statement, is fat.
16:04:18 *** idickinson (n=ijd@88-108-133-68.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) has joined #swhack
16:04:31 * Arnia turns to the next slide
16:06:32 * clsn finally looks at sbp's achewood link. Oh yeah. I forgot we'd already established that achewood totally doesn't hit my humor module.
16:08:54 <Arnia> clsn: u needz upgraed
16:09:25 <clsn> Mebbe
16:10:04 <Arnia> 14CAD
16:11:19 <sbp> hehe
16:18:55 *** idickinson1 (n=ijd@nat/hp/x-c63771f279a2105c) has joined #swhack
16:21:42 * clsn reads last night's backscroll... Argh, Arnia, you got sidetracked just when it was getting useful...
16:22:02 <Arnia> clsn: Give me the point and I'll pick up again
16:22:22 <clsn> In mid-explanation of wtf a monad is and how it does what it does, to go off and say "oooh, we have this cool monad and that cool monad..." yeah, but how do they monadically do what it is they do?
16:22:32 <clsn> (Maybe I need to learn from examples more than some people)
16:23:39 <clsn> I have that a monad consists of some domain and a thingy that maps elements from it to other elements in it, such that function relationships are maintained (right?)
16:25:00 <Arnia> Ok. I described that a monad consists of three parts; a functor and two natural transformations
16:25:27 <clsn> right; go through the transformations & their naturalness again?
16:27:02 <Arnia> I'll use the proper symbols this time so that you can look stuff up if you need to. The unit natural transformation, η, is from 1 (the constant functor) to T (the monad functor). That is, it takes any object of the underlying category to its monad transformed version.
16:27:11 <kpreid> !src Monad
16:27:11 <swhask> Maybe you meant: arr ghc url
16:27:14 <kpreid> :(
16:27:38 <Arnia> Think of it as a 'lift' operation. It allows you to take stuff from the underlying world to your new world.
16:28:07 <Arnia> Uh, 1 is the identity functor not the constant functor
16:28:18 <Arnia> (or, to use the spacesuit metaphor, it stuffs something into the spacesuit)
16:28:30 <clsn> Hmm... I think I'm starting from the wrong place here.
16:29:13 <Arnia> The join natural transformation μ : T^2 -> T
16:29:18 <clsn> The functor maps stuff in D onto other stuff in D. Wouldn't the identity functor map something onto itself?
16:29:25 <Arnia> Yes
16:29:46 <Arnia> So the identity functor takes an object to itself, and a morphism to itself
16:30:08 <clsn> Right... and now you're talking about transformations acting on the *functors*...
16:30:30 <Arnia> Join takes two applications of the functor to a single application, in other words it collapses levels
16:30:34 <Arnia> clsn: yes
16:30:43 <zachb> Ooh, more haskell
16:30:48 <Arnia> I'm trying to think about how to properly explain what a natural transformation is
16:31:21 <Arnia> (in the spacesuit metaphor, join essentially says that if you're wearing two spacesuits you may as well be wearing only one)
16:31:30 <clsn> OK... Join is transitive application of the functor then, which can be applied repeatedly
16:31:43 <kpreid> Stop me if I'm wrong:
16:32:19 <kpreid> η : 1 -> T, so η : 1 x -> T x, so η : x -> T x
16:32:35 <clsn> So the unit transformation is essentially applying the functor, but viewed as the space where you mess with functors.
16:32:38 <Arnia> Almost, not quite
16:32:43 <Arnia> (to kpreid)
16:33:13 <Arnia> kpreid: a natural transformation is a family of morphisms, one for each object of the target category of the functors
16:33:13 <clsn> And the unit transformation doesn't really apply to anything else but 1?
16:33:40 *** kpreid changed the topic to: "Almost, but not quite η : 1 -> T => η : 1 x -> T x => η : x -> T x"
16:33:46 <clsn> The target category has to be the same as the source category, we already stipulated, iirc.
16:33:53 <Arnia> clsn: yes
16:33:54 <zachb> Its not that funny?
16:33:58 <clsn> otherwise iz no identity.
16:34:44 <clsn> the unit transformation is an encoding of the functor T
16:35:00 <jsled> !arr
16:35:00 <swhask> Ahoy mateys
16:35:04 <Arnia> clsn: the unit transformation says that for any object of the underlying category, there is an object of the 'monadic' category
16:35:34 <Arnia> (that is the category which consists of only those things which are in the image of T)
16:35:55 *** jetscreamer (n=jetscrea@unaffiliated/jetscreamer) has joined #swhack
16:36:12 <clsn> The image of T being a subset of the underlying category, since it might not map to everything.
16:36:22 <clsn> or subcategory or whatever
16:36:23 <Arnia> clsn: join then gives you a way of combining these things. The idea of a monad is closely related to that of an action of a monoid on a set.
16:36:27 <Arnia> clsn: yes
16:36:57 <Arnia> Ok, to see how this relates to, say, computation
16:37:07 <clsn> All right... Sorry, just keeps confusing me when you talk about these other categories as if there are multiple spaces when we already said there was only one. I'll get the hang of it.
16:37:54 <clsn> μ encodes the functor, and the join is transitive application of it.
16:38:15 <Arnia> That's the main problem with category theory; lots of level jumping. I'm trying to define natural transformations in general, rather than just the natural transformations which define a monad. A natural transformation can exist between any functors which map between the same categories (so any pair F,G : C -> D)
16:38:26 <Arnia> clsn: join is mu
16:38:31 <Arnia> clsn: eta is unit
16:38:47 * Schroeder hums the DSCH motif
16:39:00 <Arnia> (think of join as being multiplication and you'll see why that was chosen as the convention)
16:39:23 <Arnia> Imagine you have some finite state language. This language consists of sentences which are strings of symbols.
16:39:23 <clsn> Oh ok. ε encodes T then.
16:40:18 <Arnia> clsn: sort of, yes. You can reconstruct one from the other in a very definite sense (due to 1 being a terminal object and blah blah, I'll go into that more another time if people want)
16:40:38 <clsn> A natural transformation encodes a functor, but looks at it in a different way, as being a transformation from the identity functor (or theoretically any other one) into the one we're talking about...
16:41:38 <clsn> So it's considered an operation on functors, like considering "7" to be an operation that you apply to 0 to get the number 7 (by addition). Something like that.
16:41:49 <Arnia> clsn: actually, the identity functor is a bit special in that regard. But it would take too long to go down that route and it won't help you to understand what monads *do* (although it is an important category theoretic concept)
16:42:10 <Arnia> clsn: wow... you have just grasped global elements without knowing what they are
16:42:13 <Arnia> That's impressive
16:42:36 <Arnia> Sure you don't want to take the tutorial? ;)
16:42:44 <clsn> Wait, what??? I thought I was being embarrassingly slow and stupid!
16:43:31 <Arnia> You've realised exactly the intuition behind global elements (morphisms from a terminal object) and their significance in reasoning with categories
16:43:50 <clsn> I felt like I was out of my depth, talking about "functors" when I really figured they were just what I called functions and hoping the differences weren't too much...
16:43:56 <clsn> OK then.
16:44:29 <Arnia> Functors are morphisms between categories (so really they are pairs of functions, one acting on objects and the other on morphisms)
16:44:57 <Arnia> Ok, back to the exposition. Now, a string of symbols is just a list composed out of an underlying set of symbols. I've already mentioned that lists on an arbitrary underlying set form a monoid
16:45:00 <clsn> So the central coolness of all this is these transformations which let you view what you thought were functors on the category as essentially operations on functors.
16:45:06 <clsn> OK, still listening then...
16:45:14 *** libby has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
16:45:14 <Arnia> (with append as the operation)
16:45:23 <clsn> right.
16:45:43 * clsn is also reading http://sigfpe.blogspot.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html between Arniadumps.
16:45:51 <Arnia> The set of all strings on an underlying set is called the free monoid on that set
16:46:33 <Arnia> We can also term this the free language on the set
16:46:58 <clsn> Σ*
16:47:11 <Arnia> So, we want to give this language an interpretation. We're treating it as a finite state language, so we should be able to progress symbol by symbol
16:47:52 <clsn> All right...
16:48:13 <Arnia> Now, since we're (at least pretending to be) functional programmers we should be able to write a type down for our interpreting function
16:48:33 <Arnia> Now, say we want to interpret our monoid, M, over some state space S
16:49:04 *** KiYanWang has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:49:16 <Arnia> Our interpretation should take a sentence from M, and a start state from S and produce a final state from S
16:49:33 <Arnia> so, interp :: (M, S) -> S
16:50:01 <clsn> OK, that makes sense. What you're interpreting and the start state, into the end state.
16:50:24 <Arnia> Now, obviously we want to use the structure of the monoid to give our interpretation some relevance
16:50:26 <clsn> Which essentially sums up the operation of a putative finite state machine processing.
16:50:37 <clsn> OK
16:50:43 <Arnia> So, what laws do we want interp to obey?
16:51:09 <Arnia> Think about the definition of a monoid
16:51:09 <sbp> Stigler's Law of eponymy
16:51:57 <Arnia> Well, we want interp to respect identity for a start
16:51:59 <clsn> IIRC, we need an identity and transitive closure?
16:52:08 <Arnia> interp (1, s) = s
16:52:36 <Arnia> (in the case of the free monoid, 1 is actually the empty list)
16:53:02 <Arnia> We also want interp to respect the monoid operator
16:53:13 <clsn> Oh right, has to maintain relationships.
16:53:26 *** Schroeder has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:54:25 <clsn> wait I got it.interp(xy, s) =
16:54:30 <MoiraA> arnia
16:54:33 <MoiraA> the world is so stupid
16:54:39 <MoiraA> tossers
16:54:56 <clsn> interp(xy, s)=interp(y, interp(x,s))
16:55:00 <clsn> Or is that trivial.
16:55:02 <Arnia> MoiraA: I thought that, but I'm impressed with clsn
16:55:10 <Arnia> clsn: no, that is exactly the right law
16:55:13 <MoiraA> this channel is leet
16:55:21 <MoiraA> I just rid freenode of a warez leech
16:55:26 <MoiraA> and quakenet
16:55:41 * clsn blushes. And here I always feel embarrassed talking with Arnia, feeling stupid, and it isn't something I'm used to feeling.
16:55:42 <MoiraA> [17:49] <MoiraA_> type say
16:55:43 <MoiraA> [17:49] <MoiraA_> @find beatles
16:55:43 <MoiraA> [17:49] <MoiraA_> now I hve a massive list of music
16:55:43 <MoiraA> [17:49] <MoiraA_> try it
16:55:43 <MoiraA> [17:50] <Expletive> @find GhoulTown
16:55:43 <MoiraA> [17:50] * Expletive (~YumTraps@pool-71-105-36-176.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) Quit (G-lined)
16:55:48 <Arnia> clsn: In this case, S is called an M-set and interp is an action of M on S
16:55:57 <clsn> ack phone
16:56:03 <MoiraA> they never work out why I don't get glined
16:56:56 <jsled> MoiraA: so, you have it setup if that if someone asks about downloading music, you trick them into getting G-lined?
16:57:09 <MoiraA> yes
16:57:14 <jsled> s/trick them into/tell them to do something that/
16:57:15 <MoiraA> but I'm excluded as an op
16:57:26 <MoiraA> network admins fall for it even
16:57:28 <MoiraA> amazing
16:57:41 <MoiraA> I do not like people who think its clever to pirate software
16:57:48 <MoiraA> I buy mine
16:58:19 <Arnia> clsn: I'll take this opportunity to grab some food. Let me know when you're back and we can resume. We're almost there now :)
16:59:22 <jsled> MoiraA: that seems really harsh, and deceitful.
16:59:30 <Tene> It's rare for me to find commercial software that I have a use for.
16:59:48 <MoiraA> we warn in the topic
17:00:26 <jsled> what "doing what MoiraA tells you to will get you banned from the network"?
17:00:37 <MoiraA> @find = gline''
17:00:39 <Tene> It's really confusing to me that people never read the topic, but it's true.
17:00:58 <clsn> yeah thisll take a while.
17:01:02 <MoiraA> then I demonstrate
17:01:11 <MoiraA> and don't get glined
17:01:22 <MoiraA> sorry but he got what he asked for
17:01:27 * Arnia really is impressed with clsn's natural grasp of this material
17:01:43 <MoiraA> what you doing clsn?
17:01:50 <Arnia> zachb: do you have any comments about what I've described so far?
17:01:58 <jsled> except ... you've demonstrated that the topic is untrue.
17:02:08 <Arnia> zachb: anything you want me to go over again?
17:02:08 <jsled> Why wouldn't they believe what they just saw.
17:02:08 <zachb> truth be told, I wasn't paying attention much, this is mostly over my head
17:02:16 <zachb> I payed attention early on
17:02:25 <zachb> and I plan on reading this again, once I have a better understanding
17:02:35 <jsled> Especially when you *tell them to do it*. You don't say "I wouldn't" or "please don't do that here", but trick them.
17:02:49 <jsled> Or even try to reason why they shouldn't.
17:03:19 <zachb> Oh, you guys seemed to get into stuff I understand, I'm rereading right now
17:03:44 <MoiraA> jsled, I don't do it unless I meet an arrogant, "how can I hack hotmail" kind of person
17:03:55 <MoiraA> who is leet because they can use someone elses crack
17:04:07 <MoiraA> he is zlined from most networks
17:04:28 *** pixel has quit ()
17:04:30 <MoiraA> asking for warez on irc is dumb anyway
17:06:09 <MoiraA> plus it is useful to take in there someone who would like +m on our channel and see how "with it" they are
17:06:10 * clsn catches up backscroll. Arnia, ready for the home stretch?
17:07:02 <Arnia> clsn: can you give me fifteen minutes to get food sorted? In the meantime I recommend you quickly skim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_transformation
17:07:27 <clsn> Yeah I'll do the same.
17:07:28 <Arnia> Don't worry about not understanding bits, but just get a feel for the notation because it will make explaining things easier :)
17:07:36 <clsn> right.
17:08:31 * MoiraA reads too
17:08:50 <MoiraA> clearly considered too stupid to even bother answer when I asked what clsn was learning :(
17:14:38 <Tene> He's learning how to bake a chocolate cake!
17:15:52 <MoiraA> no, hes earning category theory
17:15:54 <MoiraA> *learning
17:16:32 <procto> oh geeez category theory in the channel
17:16:34 <procto> EVERYONE DUCK
17:18:09 * zachb ducks
17:18:11 *** Schroeder (i=1000@unaffiliated/unclejimbob) has joined #swhack
17:25:26 <nslater> MoiraA: "pirate" is a non-value-neutral word, best avoided :)
17:25:54 <MoiraA> nslater ad
17:25:57 <MoiraA> and sbp
17:26:08 <MoiraA> I has asked tomaw to please kick me off this server
17:26:10 <MoiraA> til tomorrow
17:26:18 <MoiraA> I just feel not in control
17:26:28 <MoiraA> he can't find a command
17:26:30 <MoiraA> brilliant
17:26:48 <nslater> MoiraA: why would you gline someone for the above example?
17:27:07 <nslater> MoiraA: why is copying music and sharing it with your neighbours nessesarily a bad thing?
17:27:10 <MoiraA> sorry which example?
17:27:21 <MoiraA> ask in #help on quakenet
17:27:31 <nslater> where you trick someone into "searching" for music and then gline them
17:27:38 <MoiraA> they have sponsors who they can't upset by distributing warez on the network
17:27:41 <nslater> seems like a pretty cruel and pointless game
17:27:56 <MoiraA> I have had cruel and pointless games thrown at me
17:28:02 <clsn> just tell them to delete their tree files
17:28:11 <Arnia> clsn: right, just got back from the shop with a pizza and the oven is being used :/
17:28:15 <MoiraA> pardon?
17:28:19 <Arnia> clsn: time to resume I guess
17:28:20 <nslater> well, to illusrtate my point, if sbp told me that phenny will send me urls of music to download if I type "phenny: find beatles" I would give it a shot
17:28:23 <clsn> ok....
17:28:37 <MoiraA> you know sbp
17:28:45 <nslater> MoiraA: yes, I have had people troll me two, thats no justification for me trolling
17:28:46 <MoiraA> sorry
17:28:51 <MoiraA> I know what you're saying
17:28:57 <MoiraA> I just feel like before the hospital
17:28:57 <clsn> WP article has a lot of terminology I'm not quite up on.
17:29:04 <Arnia> As I said, don't worry too much. It will make sense
17:29:05 <MoiraA> I need to get out of here
17:29:09 <clsn> ok...
17:29:46 <Arnia> Ok. So, we've seen the definition of an action of a monoid on another set and that it turns a monoid and a set into a state-transition system
17:30:02 <nslater> MoiraA: if I went into a random channel and someone told me about a feature like that I would undoubtedly give it a try
17:30:29 <clsn> right... I realized that the rule about interp(xy,s) is what makes it a sequential scanner...
17:30:51 <Arnia> We'd like to be able to define the notion of an action across many sorts of structure. However, not everything is defined as a monoid.
17:31:20 <nslater> MoiraA: also, you said you glined someone from freenode, you have the power to do that!?
17:31:47 <MoiraA> I said that?
17:31:51 <Arnia> Monads are, in a sense, a generalisation of the notion of a monoid across a vast swathe of sorts of structure
17:32:08 <jsled> it sounds like the channel or something is setup to look for @find and apply the g-line.
17:32:21 <clsn> OK, we only worked with monoids so far... Of course, a monoid not using concatenation as its operator would have... less intuitive meanings to the action.
17:32:42 <Arnia> Their utility is that they allow you to define a notion of an action across any such structure.
17:32:59 <nslater> jsled: yeah, sounds like a pretty shitty way to regulate a network if you ask me
17:33:19 <Arnia> Since an action is, essentially, an interpretation of a structure; the notion of a monad allows you to define an interpreter for any monadic structure
17:33:44 <clsn> OK…
17:34:24 <Arnia> (if the structure is a list, you get a finite state machine, if the structure is a tree you should — although I haven't checked — get a push-down automata)
17:34:43 <clsn> OK...
17:34:52 <MoiraA> @find is a well known way to query a warez bot
