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00:11:14 <Monty> But what does Schroeder have to do with the price of fish?
00:11:41 <Schroeder> have you ever seen two fish copulating?
00:20:27 *** jessica has quit ()
00:32:10 * MoiraA like so
00:54:45 *** nslater changed the topic to: "ok. i'm using it to pull off Alices mesh shirt and tank top and I get /sbin/rc: line 109: /sbin/dhcp: No such file or directory :( (:..:::: . :: ...:: :.:::::)"
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01:08:32 <BigJibby> hush there Monty
01:08:33 <Monty> mu-major
01:08:48 <BigJibby> mu-Monty
01:08:51 <Monty> In conclusion, urinal is superfluous!
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01:34:58 <BigJibby> Monty: where is twe?
01:35:03 <Monty> sbp annotated #63895 with things and cards and cruel, excited by the shape of lsd relaps
01:35:20 <BigJibby> I see
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02:54:01 <zachb> Whoo
02:54:31 <zachb> I wrote a genetic programming thingie, and it made a program that beats me in this game, continually
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02:56:47 <aspect> cool :-)
02:56:49 <aspect> what game?
03:01:42 <zachb> Some little thing I made up
03:02:12 <zachb> Im trying to wrap it up in an IRC bot right now
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03:05:23 <zachb> http://paste.lisp.org/display/63936 -- that's most of the code for the game. the two bots (home & away) basically they can eat, plant, steal, and poke
03:06:15 <zachb> I don't take too much credit for the genetic programming part, its based off something from Programming Collective Intelligence, yet I've done some pretty big modifications
03:07:05 * Arnia tries to think of a good structure for a series of mini-tutorials on category theory and its relevance to computer science
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03:07:31 <zachb> Ooh, that sounds interesting
03:09:45 <Arnia> I'm planning on making a series of such tutorials recorded using Keynote and putting them on my website
03:09:58 <Arnia> but, I need to devise a course outline first
03:10:20 <aspect> where do you want the students to be coming from, and where do you want to take them?
03:10:35 <Arnia> Aha, exactly the question I was asking myself :)
03:10:53 <aspect> damn, I thought I was being insightful :)
03:11:00 <zachb> Heh
03:11:03 <Arnia> Oh it is a very good question
03:11:17 <zachb> Just Arnia already thought of it :P
03:11:34 <Arnia> No, educational theory had already thought of it
03:11:48 <zachb> Arnia had already pondered it?
03:11:55 <Arnia> It is part of what was taught to us in our teaching course
03:12:54 <Arnia> Currently, I want to presume a basic handling of maths but nothing specific in the way of domain (so the ability to think rigourously but not detailed knowledge of theorems from say topology, or abstract algebra)
03:13:22 <aspect> bah, that's level not motivation
03:13:28 <Arnia> An understanding of what a graph is maybe helpful, and some basic data structures knowledge
03:14:29 <Arnia> aspect: students? motivation? ;)
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03:15:40 <Arnia> Ok, presume they've done a first year module in formal aspects like the one we offer
03:16:05 <zachb> Wow, that's pretty basic
03:16:15 <Arnia> maybe coupled with a first year module in data-structures
03:16:23 <zachb> What level is this at?
03:16:30 <deltab> on student motivation: http://www.jwz.org/doc/groupware.html
03:16:36 <aspect> again, come back to motivation: what's category theory going to give them?
03:16:51 <aspect> do they want to code or do math?
03:17:08 <aspect> what tools would you like them to be able to work with?
03:17:19 <Arnia> zachb: level one
03:17:24 <aspect> what's the key insight that makes category theory exciting enough for you to want to teach?
03:18:27 <Arnia> zachb: Formal Aspects of Computer Science is one of the compulsory first year modules.
03:18:28 <zachb> Arnia: oh, wow
03:18:52 <zachb> Have fun with that, I need cool sleep
03:18:59 <zachb> g'night
03:20:28 <Arnia> aspect: I want them to be able to understand the way that various disparate branches of maths relate to each other. The key insight of category theory is that it is all just computation in the end (constructivist mathematics) and so I want them to develop the insight and courage to use mathematical ideas in their code
03:20:44 <Arnia> zachb: early?
03:21:57 <Arnia> aspect: The intended audience is someone who currently knows that maths is important to computer science, but doesn't see its relevance to coding
03:22:48 <aspect> that sounds good. I'd like to watch the videos when you put them up :-)
03:23:04 <Arnia> aspect: I intend to use examples from Haskell and various dependently typed languages such as GF and Epigram to show how ideas have been imported from category theory, and also to show how one thinks 'categorically'
03:23:50 <aspect> I'd try to avoid the usual functional-programming "join our cult" mentality. Try and get things motivated using familiar languages first before demanding the learner abandon everything they already know
03:25:26 <aspect> starting with a useful algorithm in an imperative language, for instance; then showing properties of it mathematically, attempting to express them in code and before long needing a functional style and functional language to do so
03:25:46 * Arnia tries to think of a non-functional language which makes heavy use of category theory concepts in an obvious manner
03:25:48 * Arnia fails
03:25:58 <aspect> but that's the beauty of it
03:26:05 <aspect> it's not obvious but the concepts are still there
03:26:51 <Arnia> hrm, buried under tons of imperative shit. It would be an advanced course which introduced the semantics of a typical stack language in category theoretic style
03:27:06 <aspect> nonono don't get into semantics of the language
03:27:09 <Arnia> And it would be more a domain theory course than a category theory course...
03:27:09 <aspect> just the algorithm
03:27:23 <Arnia> Ah, there we have a problem because the two are linked
03:28:02 <Arnia> I cannot show that an imperative algorithm is an instance of a beautiful concept without relating it to its pure-functional semantics
03:28:32 <aspect> yep, that's the precondition and postcondition of the procedure
03:28:35 <Arnia> Which is going to be hideously messy due to the need to carry the world with me and analyse all the interactions the algorithm has with it
03:28:54 <Arnia> Not feasible to teach as a second year module
03:29:03 <aspect> or perhaps invarants. I think you can gloss over a whole lot of interactions. Isn't that what mathematicians do to understand complex systems?
03:29:23 <Arnia> Yes... broadly speaking. But not in this instance
03:29:23 <aspect> "we can avoid steps c to j because once they're complete this invariant holds and we've just traversed this arrow"
03:29:41 <aspect> s/avoid/ignore
03:29:48 <Arnia> You can't simplify out the world, when it is the changes to the world which the program accomplishes (updates to cells, etc)
03:29:59 <aspect> it's called abstraction
03:30:19 <Arnia> aspect: yes, but it is an abstraction which is very advanced and requires a lot of machinery
03:30:39 <aspect> does it really all need to be formally justified from the beginning?
03:30:42 <Arnia> machinery the student would have to understand to be able to relate the material to category theory at all
03:30:51 <aspect> I'm thinking top-down analysis rather than bottom-up
03:31:11 <aspect> but they don't know what category theory is until you tell them
03:31:21 <Arnia> Not formally justified, but formally understood yes
03:31:22 <Arnia> You have to be able to see that the algorithm is implemented by the construction, and that it is category theoretic
03:31:46 <Arnia> Correct, but I still need to be able to tell them 'look, this is an epimorphism'
03:32:04 <Arnia> and then show them how useful that concept is, and how it shows up in lots of places
03:32:18 <Arnia> I'm also presuming they've done a first year haskell module by the way
03:32:29 <aspect> but can't you say that of a block of code, without proving it by mathematical semantics of each line?
03:32:41 <Arnia> No
03:32:47 <Arnia> To put it bluntly
03:33:03 <Arnia> This is why formal analysis of imperative code is so very very hard
03:33:08 <Arnia> (even for experts)
03:33:24 <Arnia> The interactions, and expressions you get are anything but neat
03:33:44 <Arnia> There is nothing to point to and go 'that's an X' where X is a simple construct
03:33:52 <Arnia> Because everything rolls over each other
03:33:58 * kpreid disagrees
03:34:10 <aspect> I disagree
03:34:24 <kpreid> Well, hm, that's perhaps too strong
03:34:28 <aspect> black boxes are useful
03:34:44 <Arnia> aspect: that's the problem though! You don't have a black box :/
03:35:12 <aspect> you can treat it as such though
03:35:27 <kpreid> I believe that an imperative language with sufficiently strong modularity/encapsulation/optional-immutability guarantees is amenable to analysis, especially componentwise
03:35:41 <Arnia> aspect: structured programming and OOP are both leaky abstractions in that sense. There *are* nice ways to analyse them, but not such that they're suitable for teaching without confusing things for later
03:35:45 <kpreid> ...depending on what you want to prove, anyway...
03:35:52 <aspect> for the purposes of concentrating on the interesting bits, we're going to assume X is proved for now. you can go back later and prove it yourself if you want.
03:36:46 <aspect> it's perfectly possible to write a functional procedure whose contents are imperative
03:36:54 <aspect> then to treat that procedure as functional
03:37:05 <Arnia> aspect: it clouds things. I've used similar techniques when teaching Haskell and trying to relate it to imperative programming and it invariably fails
03:37:27 <aspect> okay, I'll buy that objection
03:38:04 <Arnia> aspect: the students either get the wrong end of the stick and think that mathematical variables can be updated (it is hard enough disabusing them of that notion in the first place) or find the whole mess over-wrought and impractical
03:38:32 <Arnia> Especially those who have joined the agile cult (which is even more evangelical than the FP cult ;)
03:38:56 <kpreid> I wanna join the Use-What-Works Cult
03:38:58 <Arnia> "Why don't we just use unit testing? This maths is pointless, how does it help us write code?"
03:39:20 <kpreid> Whack them over the head with a type checker
03:39:23 <aspect> heh. I thought trying to adopt the system wholesale is what makes it seem over-wrought and impractical. Your direct experience speaks more than my conjecture though :)
03:40:08 <aspect> I'm going to have to get back to writing this ugly proposal for work though; hopefully I've helped you with some idea at least of what you don't want to do ;-)
03:40:36 <Arnia> aspect: to be fair, we teach things arse backwards I feel. But a lot of that comes entirely from the desire to make things 'practical'. The students pick up all sorts of impressions about what the maths is but never any of the clarity or elegance
03:40:45 <aspect> kpreid: I've found a cult close to that, it's called Tcl :-)
03:40:46 <Arnia> aspect: heh, thanks ;)
03:41:14 <aspect> Arnia: aye, I've often complained about exactly that problem
03:41:35 * Arnia tries to think about how to make things practical without losing the clarity and elegance which are the advantages of mathematical models
03:41:46 <Arnia> I think a running example would be helpful
03:42:30 <Arnia> Something we build stage by stage using concepts from category theory. Hm. Maybe actually build an interpreter for a programming language?
03:42:58 <Arnia> that way we'd gradually build up to the complexities of imperative modelling without confusion
03:43:30 <Arnia> That suggestions starting off with abstract algebra and logic though, rather than the axiomatic presentation of a category
03:43:52 <Arnia> Which mirrors the historical development better actually (and I'm a big fan of historical presentations)
03:44:31 <aspect> just don't build a toy scheme interpreter; that's already been done
03:44:49 <aspect> actually what would be really nice, in my opinion at least
03:45:01 <Arnia> aspect: I was thinking more building up to an interpreter for an agent-oriented or OO language
03:45:11 <aspect> is to build up a toolkit for mathematical analysis following historical development
03:45:24 <Arnia> but showing how other languages can be constructed by tweaks
03:45:39 <aspect> play down the programming language side of it, build it more as a theorem prover, perhaps
03:45:55 <Arnia> although... ok, start off with basic abstract algebra, untyped lambda calculus and order theory. A couple of lectures should be able to cover the core of those. Enough to build on at any rate
03:45:56 * aspect isn't mathematically versed enough to know what he's asking
03:46:22 <Arnia> aspect: they'll question building a theorem prover more than building an interpreter for a DSL
03:46:31 * Arnia has to think about this though
03:46:50 <aspect> I'm thinking something you can use to demonstrate or apply the mathematical principles as you learn them, directly
03:47:33 <Arnia> If I start with a description of a monoid, a partial order and a deductive system then I have three very different things I can show are all very similar underneath and use that as an entry point to the course content
03:47:35 <aspect> and letting the students work out that it's building towards a powerful programming language by themselves, as the patterns begin to fit together
03:48:15 <Arnia> aspect: ah, I'm supposed to signpost things like that and include it in the 'learning outcomes' section of the module description required by HEFCE and HEA
03:48:36 <Arnia> Takes all the mystery out of it in my opinion
03:49:07 <aspect> argh. I didn't realise you were seeking approval or sanction for this; that makes being interesting a lot harder :P
03:51:04 <kpreid> Arnia: ooh, monoid
03:51:38 <Arnia> Remember, a category can be thought of as a generalised monoid, a generalised partial order and a generalised deductive system all at the same time
03:51:40 <kpreid> A nice simple algebraic thingy which when I saw it I immediately saw how a lot of programmy stuff fits it
03:51:48 <kpreid> (as shown in Haskell anyway)
03:51:54 <Arnia> yeah
03:52:03 <kpreid> ...on the other hand, I have hardly ever actually wanted to abstract over all monoids.
03:52:49 * Arnia points to m-sets again
03:53:07 <Arnia> finite state machines ftw :p
03:53:43 <kpreid> your references have no referent for me
03:54:51 <kpreid> I know what a FSM is, but not what interesting monoid there might be related, or what a m-set is
03:58:46 <Arnia> A finite state machine is a monoid paired with a set together with a transition function M x S -> S
03:59:06 <kpreid> Ah, got it
03:59:21 <Arnia> such that the transition function (called an action of the monoid on the set) respects the monoid structure
03:59:51 <kpreid> Yep yep
04:00:31 <Arnia> Also, monads are a generalisation of monoids allowing many (most?) interesting data structures to be given a monoidal structure
04:00:41 <kpreid> 'Tis now past midnight...
04:00:43 * kpreid z
04:00:59 <Arnia> It simplifies things because monoids are really easy to handle
04:04:27 <Arnia> night
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06:15:35 <Monty> Thank goodness, cskaterun is back!
06:23:26 * Arnia glances balefully at Monty
06:23:26 <Monty> nsh, note down shared templates
06:27:57 <Arnia> Oh, and relating to the problems giving a composition point functor earlier... I've found that there is a strong relation with Yoneda's lemma, and in particular the Yoneda embeddings Y : C^op -> Fun(C,Set) and J : C -> Fun(C^op, Set)
06:28:44 <Arnia> There is also a strong relation with rough sets, but I'm not sure if that is independent or part of a bigger picture.
06:30:57 <Arnia> (Y sends every object A of C to the hom-functor C[A,-] and every arrow f : B -> A to the natural transformation f* : C[A,-] -> C[B,-] and J acts dually)
06:33:28 <Arnia> What is important about this is that a covariant hom-functor like C[A,-] entirely expresses the intension of an object A (those arrows leaving A) whilst a contravariant hom-functor C[-,A] expresses the extension of A
06:37:33 <Arnia> So a pair of functors, C[-,A] x C[A,-] expresses the full meaning of an object A in a sense made precise by Yoneda's lemma which basically states that for a functor F : C -> Set, F(A) is isomorphic to all the natural transformations from C[A,-] to F
06:37:55 * Arnia revives everyone knocked out by boredom using a convenient nuke
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06:51:32 <thelsdj> .gc "the hammer is my penis"
06:51:34 <phenny> "the hammer is my penis": 801
06:51:41 <thelsdj> quite a few references already
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07:31:50 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's danja!
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07:40:16 <Monty> But what does sr have to do with the price of fish?
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07:56:59 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's mmmmmrob!
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08:06:35 <thelsdj> oh man, whedon used 'sheeple' in dr horrible
08:07:25 <sbp> yo
08:07:34 <xover> oy
08:07:36 <thelsdj> sbp: have you watched dr horrible yet?
08:08:46 <sbp> nopes
08:08:53 <thelsdj> http://drhorrible.com/
08:08:55 <sbp> .wik Dr Horrible
08:08:56 <phenny> "Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog is a 40-minute, 3-part musical comedy produced for the Internet, telling the story of a low-rent supervillain, the hero who keeps beating him up, and the cute girl from the laundromat he's too shy to talk to." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr_Horrible
08:08:57 <Monty> anyone been repeated
08:09:24 * jeanniecool LOVES Joss Whedon
08:09:28 * jeanniecool HATES Joss Whedon
08:09:34 <jeanniecool> Sigh.
08:09:37 <thelsdj> jetscreamer: i agree
08:09:40 <thelsdj> but have you watched dr horrible yet?
08:09:49 <thelsdj> er that was supposed to be to jeanniecool
08:09:59 <jeanniecool> Yes, just finished 3.
08:10:19 <jeanniecool> (And have you heard about "Dollhouse," thelsdj?)
08:10:28 <thelsdj> yea, eagerly awaiting
08:10:33 <jeanniecool> Which is why I loate him.
08:10:37 <jeanniecool> haove?
08:10:53 * jeanniecool sighs again
08:10:58 <thelsdj> i still have a season of angel i haven't watched
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08:11:24 <jeanniecool> Just scored the Angel box set via Amazon lightning deal.
08:11:40 <jeanniecool> I watched only sporadically last 3 seasons, so most will be new. w00t!
08:11:46 <jeanniecool> crap
08:11:54 <jeanniecool> 0111. How does that happen?
08:12:21 <jeanniecool> Gotta to be at work in ~6 hrs. So with that, I bed y'all sweet dreams!
08:12:28 <thelsdj> night
08:13:09 <sbp> phenny: tell clsn actually written language is basically *one* dimensional when you think about it, but interestingly some sign language transcription methods are two dimensional! Arnia and I thought about making a two dimensional language once
08:13:10 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when clsn is around.
08:14:46 <sbp> phenny: tell clsn (or, if phonemes/pitch do give it a second dimension, then perhaps the sign language transcription methods are three dimensional because they encode three dimensional movements? hmm. like the way that you can draw a cube in 2d?)
08:14:46 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when clsn is around.
08:14:49 <thelsdj> joss whedon is great when he can write lines like 'The Hammer is my penis.'
08:17:53 <sbp> argh:
08:17:55 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7514458.stm
08:17:57 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | Wales | South East Wales | Cigar blunder minister quits job
08:18:08 <sbp> people really need to stop resigning over minor errors
08:18:32 <Arnia> I like their resignations... I can then kidnap them and turn them into functors
08:18:41 <sbp> devious
08:18:42 * Arnia prepares the Yoneda machine
08:18:52 <sbp> .wik Yoneda
08:18:53 <phenny> "Isao Yoneda, gymnast" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoneda
08:18:59 <sbp> even more devious
08:19:02 <Arnia> .wik Yoneda lemma
08:19:03 <phenny> "In mathematics, specifically in category theory, the Yoneda lemma is an abstract result on functors of the type morphisms into a fixed object." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoneda_lemma
08:27:22 <sbp> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Snowflake_300um_LTSEM%2C_13368.jpg
08:30:00 <thelsdj> where is that linked from?
08:37:51 <sbp> thelsdj: Rime frost, I think
08:37:59 <sbp> .wik Selective Inverted Sink
08:38:00 <phenny> "The selective inverted sink or SIS is a device used by farmers to protect plants from frost, developed by Uruguayan Rafael Guarga in the late 1990s." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Inverted_Sink
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09:08:06 <MoiraA> morning
09:10:20 <sbp> yo MoiraA
09:11:36 <MoiraA> sleeping a hell of a lot better now
09:11:41 <MoiraA> just woken up in fact
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09:26:08 <danja> any Apache config gurus around?
09:26:08 <danja> I want to proxy every thing from port 80 onto 8080
09:26:08 <danja> *except* I want a 302 from
09:26:08 <danja> http://dannyayers.com/.rss => http://hyperdata.org/blog/feed/rdf/
09:26:08 <danja> and
09:26:09 <danja> http://dannyayers.com/feed/rdf/ => http://hyperdata.org/blog/feed/rdf/
09:26:11 <danja> I've got the proxying going but am stuck on those redirects
09:26:13 <danja> see http://pastebin.com/d5ceb190a
09:27:14 <sbp> yo danja. Morbus might be able to help when he comes online
09:27:27 <sbp> actually, if he comes online. not sure he's around on Saturdays
09:27:36 <danja> 'k ta
09:27:47 <sbp> not sure about the precedence ordering...
09:27:56 <sbp> have you tried using mod_rewrite rules instead of Redirect?
09:28:15 <danja> hmm...don't think so
09:28:23 <sbp> might be worth trying
09:28:29 <danja> right, ta
09:30:25 <danja> beh, better get some air - starting to get a headache....
09:30:28 <danja> biab
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09:50:39 *** nsh (n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi) has joined #swhack
09:51:39 <MoiraA> morning nsh
09:52:54 * nsh waves
09:53:17 <nsh> NOTE: DESCRIPTIVISM DOES NOT MEAN IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO USE WORDS INCORRECTLY AND IDIOTICALLY.
09:54:05 <sbp> kk
09:55:13 * nsh smiles
10:04:41 *** sbp changed the topic to: "“The mingent dog amused the children but not the owner of the flower garden.”"
10:06:05 <nsh> Texbook piracy: it's not just an option - it's a duty.
10:07:42 <nsh> bah, this day is starting with too many things to be angry about
10:08:01 <sbp> just throw Ginsparg's Law at it all and move on to funs
10:08:52 *** danja_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:09:14 <nsh> GOTT IDEA, HERR SBP
10:09:42 <nsh> .gc fuckrod
10:09:42 <phenny> fuckrod: 1,920
10:09:43 <Monty> potty mouth!
10:09:44 <nsh> ++
10:09:54 <nsh> Monty, shut up
10:09:55 <Monty> :]
10:10:48 <d8uv> goddamn "ugly duckling" (the hip-hop group) is genius
10:10:48 <nsh> oo, autoload copier
10:11:00 * nsh will test this hypothesis empirically
10:11:39 <nsh> hrm
10:11:52 <MoiraA> empiracally?
10:11:53 <nsh> firefox backslash escaped my quotes on tpb instead of urlencoding them
10:11:58 <nsh> that's never happened before
10:12:03 <nsh> .ety empirical
10:12:03 <phenny> "1569, from L. empiricus, from Gk. empeirikos 'experienced,' from empeiria 'experience,' from empeiros 'skilled,' from en- 'in' + peira 'trial, experiment.' Originally a school of ancient physicians who based their practice on experience rather than theory." - http://etymonline.com/?term=empirical
10:12:19 <MoiraA> cheers#
10:12:26 <MoiraA> good job we have the bot dictionary
10:13:15 <d8uv> Does phenny have like a wordnet/proper dictionary in it?
10:13:30 <nsh> A DOG A MONKEY AND A SNAKE
10:13:38 <nsh> .dict wordnet
10:13:40 <phenny> nsh: Sorry, no definition found.
10:13:50 <nsh> .wn dictionary
10:13:50 <d8uv> TOGETHER, FIGHTING CRIME
10:13:58 <nsh> INSIDE A SACK WITH A CONVICT
10:14:06 <nsh> .w marbles
10:14:07 <phenny> marbles n. 1: A hard crystalline metamorphic rock that takes a high polish
10:14:08 <phenny> marbles n. 2: A small ball of glass that is used in various games
10:14:09 <phenny> marbles v. 1: Paint or stain like marble.
10:14:19 <nsh> no, marbles isn't a verb, wordnet
10:14:21 <nsh> be less stupid.
10:14:49 <d8uv> Well I'm the genesis of this particular line of stupid
10:14:53 <d8uv> So yell at me
10:15:09 <nsh> sw[ee]t
10:15:14 <d8uv> (Hell, earlier, I tried to make had boiled eggs. Failed twice)
10:15:25 <nsh> did you get runny eggs?
10:15:36 <nsh> because that's the kinda fail that tastes like win
10:15:40 * nsh wants eggs
10:15:49 <nsh> i wonder if my measly pennies will buy me breakfast
10:16:06 <d8uv> Look OK I still don't like eggs, unless they're hard and boiled
10:16:26 <nsh> wow
10:16:30 <d8uv> Or in nog form
10:16:39 <nsh> BIGEGGOT!
10:17:22 <d8uv> I also hate rice.
10:17:36 <nsh> shit, you've wiped out 40% of my diet by weight
10:17:56 <d8uv> (The correct response to that is RICEIST)
10:18:13 * nsh isn't allowed to respond correctly :-/
10:18:50 <d8uv> And... truthfully, long grain rice can go to hell. All other kinds of rice are welcome in my mouth
10:19:38 <nsh> that's cool
10:19:44 <nsh> i'm leaning toward risotto these days
10:21:15 <d8uv> RISOTTO
10:21:21 <d8uv> That's like
10:21:25 <d8uv> rice
10:21:28 <d8uv> and broth
10:21:30 <d8uv> cooked
10:21:32 <d8uv> s
10:21:33 <d8uv> o
10:21:35 <d8uv> that
10:21:40 <d8uv> it resembles
10:21:42 <d8uv> something
10:21:45 <d8uv> close to
10:21:51 <d8uv> DELICOUS PUDDING
10:22:30 <d8uv> (incidentally, i want monty to exclaim "DELICIOUS PUDDING" one day)
10:22:34 <Monty> Is it not possible to act rather like George W Bush's plethora!!!
10:24:17 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<nsh> because that's the kinda fail that tastes like win"
10:25:05 <sbp> farm animals are funny
10:25:56 <d8uv> maaaah
10:26:06 <sbp> yeah
10:26:25 <sbp> there is a certain comedy to that
10:26:50 <d8uv> sbp: comment on http://worldtv.com/wipe_out_tv
10:27:46 <sbp> stunning professionalism
10:27:57 <d8uv> or, you know. get on googletalk
10:28:06 <d8uv> either one
10:28:51 <d8uv> (or skype, if i can remember my skype detailz)
10:44:01 *** libby (n=libby@92-237-82-160.cable.ubr17.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
10:53:50 <d8uv> http://www.p01.org/releases/DHTML_contests/files/DEFENDER_of_the_favicon/ <- So damn cool
11:02:35 <MoiraA> sbp
11:02:37 <MoiraA> or anyone
11:02:39 <sbp> MoiraA
11:02:48 <MoiraA> can you ask robocop
11:02:59 <MoiraA> no
11:03:02 <MoiraA> RobotGuy
11:03:07 <MoiraA> if he has a paypal account
11:03:14 <sbp> I have not seen RobotGuy for ages
11:03:19 <MoiraA> if I do it will look obvious
11:03:20 <sbp> I don't think he comes in here any more
11:03:26 * MoiraA invites sbp to #WALTER
11:03:46 <sbp> there, done
11:04:59 <MoiraA> he has no money, no food, can't pay the rent
11:05:03 <MoiraA> in is words
11:05:04 <MoiraA> supposed to go to a conference that starts next week (OSCON) and show W.A.L.T.E.R. to a fellow who could be important to further development (Lead Developer for Gentoo Embedded), and have no clean clothes, or money, and my power chair is getting increasingly cranky.
11:06:37 *** libby has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
11:08:53 <sbp> MoiraA: that didn't work as well as I'd hoped
11:09:12 <MoiraA> lolol
11:09:13 <MoiraA> no
11:09:16 <melbel> afternoonings
11:09:17 <MoiraA> not to worry
11:09:22 <sbp> mellbell!
11:09:32 <MoiraA> he has gone to sleep
11:09:36 <MoiraA> I want to help him somehow
11:09:39 <melbel> essbeepee!
11:09:50 <MoiraA> but right now I need to get on
11:23:02 <sbp> .ety supernal
11:23:03 <phenny> "1447, 'heavenly, divine,' from O.Fr. supernal (12c.), formed from L. supernus 'situated above, celestial' (from super 'above, over;' see super-) as a contrast to infernal." - http://etymonline.com/?term=supernal
11:25:23 <melbel> infernal :D
11:25:30 *** danja_ (n=danny@host195-11-dynamic.8-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
11:45:59 <nsh> .ety premises
11:45:59 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "premises". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=premises
11:47:45 *** kpreid has quit ()
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11:48:22 <Monty> Thank goodness, kpreid is back!
11:48:44 <nsh> .ety premesis
11:48:45 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "premesis". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=premesis
11:49:54 <kpreid> Thank goodness, Monty is still here!
11:50:01 <Monty> number of reducing things about exactly the Christmas Lectures, and repeatedly kick people die their component entities, and 8125
11:56:46 *** chris2 (n=chris@p5B16A860.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #swhack
12:02:34 <nslater> who runs lisppaste?
12:03:47 <kpreid> chandler
12:04:37 <kpreid> and me and nyef(? iirc) for some things
12:05:19 <nslater> thanks
12:07:12 <MoiraA> back
12:07:18 <MoiraA> err
12:07:24 <MoiraA> sorry is sbp around
12:07:29 <sbp> yes...
12:07:45 <MoiraA> I wonder what I can do for poor RobotGuy
12:07:54 <sbp> dunno. sorry, bit busy at the moment
12:08:02 <MoiraA> k not to worry
12:21:24 <d8uv> mmmmpudding
12:49:47 <Arnia> mmmmstringtheoristbarbecue
12:53:50 <kpreid> string theorists? aren't those extinct?
13:03:17 <nsh> nah, just endangered
13:04:04 <nsh> and entrenched
13:04:22 <nsh> occasionally, edudite
13:04:22 <nsh> *erudite
13:04:46 <Noia> hai melbel
13:05:37 <nsh> .ety occasion
13:05:38 <phenny> "1382, from O.Fr. occasion, from L. occasionem (nom. occasio) 'opportunity, appropriate time,' from occasum, pp. of occidere 'fall down, go down,' from ob 'down, away' + cadere 'to fall' (see case (1))." - http://etymonline.com/?term=occasion
13:08:49 <melbel> Noia: bitch
13:09:27 <Noia> stops its >.>
13:15:53 *** danja (n=danny@host99-251-static.12-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
13:16:06 <Monty> hey danja
13:31:19 *** martiancode (n=martiani@unaffiliated/martiancode) has joined #swhack
13:31:19 <Monty> yo martiancode!
13:33:04 <Arnia> urp... http://mises.org/Community/blogs/tokyotom/archive/2008/07/10/lubo-motl-3-this-lover-of-freedom-and-hater-of-irrationality-can-t-stand-discourse-and-fantasies-about-elimination.aspx
13:33:27 <sbp> nice uri
13:33:39 <Arnia> Motl said, "I am normally against euthanasia but it simply seems to me that there is no other help for the people who are writing most of the stuff above. It's literally pandemics. The society should urgently put these people into quarantine, hoping that it is not too late"
13:33:54 <Arnia> stuff above = anthropogenic climate change
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13:36:15 <nsh> motl is a grade A troll
13:36:35 <nsh> he went through all the trouble of getting a PhD in physics just to be a massive dick
13:36:42 <nsh> ++++
13:37:57 <nsh> that's dedication
13:38:09 <sbp> heh
13:38:43 <sbp> Swhack saultes everybody who did it for the luls
13:38:58 * nsh nods solemnly
13:40:57 * nsh supports farmers who do it for the culls
13:41:10 <nsh> also, beastialists who do it to the gulls
13:41:14 <sbp> hehe
13:41:41 <nsh> because everything that rhymes is on a similar vector of agreeability for nsh
13:41:52 <nsh> (FACT)
13:43:05 * nsh wonders when his books are going to arrive
13:43:05 *** dpawson (n=dpawson@dpawson.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #swhack
13:43:19 <nsh> dpawson: STATE PEARFLAX
13:43:29 * nsh wonders if you can make flax from pear fibres
13:43:40 <nsh> someone should look into that
13:44:54 <nsh> Shipped Jul 10 2008
13:44:54 <nsh> Expected to arrive by Jul 28, 2008
13:45:17 <nsh> wtf, it could turn up by brownian motion more rapidly
13:45:40 <nsh> i could be dead by then
13:45:50 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<nsh> wtf, it could turn up by brownian motion more rapidly"
13:45:57 <sbp> you're coming up with a lot of topicables today
13:46:20 <nsh> it's because i ate a symposium for breakfast
13:48:46 * nsh need sugar
13:48:56 <nsh> ah, i could make some icing
13:48:57 <nsh> or microwave merrengues
13:49:20 <nsh> merr-, mera-, ah fuck french
14:02:01 *** chris2 has quit ("Leaving")
14:12:20 <MoiraA> sbp
14:12:45 <MoiraA> I know you're busy
14:13:00 <MoiraA> but if you could just tell someone trying to help me that I am genuine
14:14:12 <sbp> okay. who?
14:14:46 <MoiraA> verden
14:14:56 <MoiraA> verdict sorry
14:15:35 <MoiraA> if you went to #defocus
14:15:43 <MoiraA> I will ask him to pm you
14:16:12 <MoiraA> [15:10] <verdict> you could be one of those arse baskets who enjoy to fuck with my brain and play this role here of a female with a sad real life
14:16:12 <MoiraA> [15:11] <MoiraA> let me see how I can prove this
14:16:12 <MoiraA> [15:11] <verdict> and while i am stupid and buy this story the chat log could be live on the web for the giggles of people
14:16:37 <sbp> okay, done
14:16:44 <MoiraA> huh?
14:16:57 <MoiraA> how did I miss that
14:17:21 <MoiraA> I know you are an amazing person
14:17:29 <MoiraA> but that was somewhat awesome
14:17:35 <MoiraA> you mean you spoke t5o him
14:18:10 <sbp> yeah, it's sorted
14:19:11 * MoiraA hugs sbp
14:19:16 <MoiraA> cheers
14:19:20 *** martiancode is now known as martianixor
14:19:26 <sbp> yw
14:25:34 *** jetscreamer has quit ()
14:29:56 <nslater> if anyone knows of a tool that you can pipe emails to and it will generate an atom feed, please let me know
14:30:13 <nslater> alternately, if you think you could hack something up using python, I will pay dollar for it
14:30:23 <nslater> I would do it my self, but I just cba
14:31:22 <nsh> you can pay me dollar to shout at you until you cba
14:31:27 <sbp> hehe
14:31:37 <nsh> i'll berate for extra
14:31:38 <sbp> .g email to atom
14:31:39 <phenny> sbp: http://www.massmailsoftware.com/
14:31:41 <sbp> .g email2atom
14:31:42 <phenny> sbp: No results found for 'email2atom'.
14:31:44 <sbp> .g mbox2atom
14:31:45 <phenny> sbp: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/mod_mbox/branches/surgery/module/mod_mbox_out.c
14:31:49 <sbp> 'k
14:31:50 <nslater> at the moment I am using this: http://www.mailbucket.org/nslater.xml
14:32:01 <nslater> but it converts the lovely html emails from google into plain text
14:32:20 <nslater> which is next to useless for me as I am aggregating this into planet bytesexual and it requires me to copy and paste urls etc
14:33:44 <nsh> you're a copied and pasted url
14:33:50 <nslater> your mum
14:36:08 *** Alex (i=hauntedu@goatse.co.uk) has joined #swhack
14:36:13 <Alex> HUULK.
14:36:16 * nslater prods sbp
14:36:23 <Alex> O I get it :(
14:36:24 *** Alex has parted #swhack ("sbp")
14:36:29 * nslater laughs
14:36:42 * nsh is offendised
14:36:51 <nsh> whoa
14:36:52 <nsh> i got that as one lagspike
14:36:55 <nslater> nsh, internet is srs bsns
14:37:01 <nsh> was like drive-by newbing
14:37:21 <nslater> heh
14:37:55 <sbp> hehe
14:38:50 <nslater> .title http://webscripts.softpedia.com/script/Internet-Browsers-C-C/RSS/mbox2rss-36397.html
14:38:51 <phenny> nslater: Download mbox2rss 0.8 - mbox2rss allows you to export files from an UNIX-MBOX-Format as RSS feeds. - Softpedia
14:38:53 <nslater> looks promising
14:39:03 <nslater> GPL... Linux... could this be it
14:39:11 <sbp> ooh
14:39:15 <sbp> .g mbox2rss
14:39:16 <phenny> sbp: http://sourceforge.net/projects/mbox2rss/
14:39:20 <nslater> PHP... ugh
14:39:25 <nslater> hmm!
14:39:36 <sbp> AaronSw did something like this
14:39:42 <nslater> yes, but the other way around
14:39:46 <nslater> I was running it for a while, email2rss
14:40:07 <nslater> sigh, I dont want to install pgp
14:40:08 <nslater> php
14:40:20 <sbp> ah
14:41:10 <nslater> man, sourceforge is such a failboat
14:41:45 <nsh> we could sink it
14:41:55 <nsh> and then have it as an underground tourist attraction
14:42:09 <nsh> phenny, en fi "market stall"
14:42:11 <nsh> phenny, en fi "market stall"?
14:42:12 <phenny> nsh: "markkinoiden stall" (en to fi, translate.google.com)
14:42:24 <nsh> phenny, en fi "stall"?
14:42:25 <phenny> nsh: "stall" (en to fi, translate.google.com)
14:42:32 <nsh> phenny, fi en "koju"?
14:42:32 <phenny> nsh: "koju" (fi to en, translate.google.com)
14:42:37 <nsh> you suck google
14:43:08 <sbp> no I don't!
14:43:15 <nsh> phenny, fi en "markkinakoju"?
14:43:15 *** danja_ (n=danny@host14-206-dynamic.19-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
14:43:15 <phenny> nsh: "markkinakoju" (fi to en, translate.google.com)
14:43:29 <nsh> you might one day, sbp. don't sell yourself short mang
14:43:53 <nslater> FUCK!!!!
14:44:05 <nslater> source forge has crashed my browser with it's shite ad network bollocks
14:44:05 <Monty> potty mouth!
14:44:10 <nslater> h8 h8 h8 h8 h8 h8
14:45:02 <sbp> HUULK.
14:45:07 <nslater> heh
14:45:21 <nslater> they see me hulkin', they be hatin'
14:45:49 *** Schroeder (i=1000@unaffiliated/unclejimbob) has joined #swhack
14:46:07 <nsh> Schroeder: STATE PASSPORT
14:48:45 <sbp> good title: "Field Marshal His Grace"
14:49:01 <sbp> (Field Marshal His Grace The Duke of Wellington KG, KP, GCB, GCH, PC, FRS)
14:49:29 <MoiraA> I think I'll just have to send some money to RobotGuy and tell him from the start
14:49:37 <MoiraA> I can't think how to do it anonymously
14:49:46 <MoiraA> maybe
14:49:50 * MoiraA schemes
15:00:03 <nslater> quick question, you have a collection of documents that are date ordered. is the oldest document the "first" or the "last" in the collection (thinkging specifically about html rel values)
15:01:24 *** danja has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:03:10 <sbp> it depends. author's choice
15:03:24 <sbp> prev/next in HTML rel doesn't define your ordering
15:03:32 <nslater> okay, in the context of "last", "prev", "next", "first" I would argue that "first" is most recent
15:03:45 <sbp> doesn't have to be
15:03:48 <nslater> sure
15:04:04 <nslater> is either one more correct than the other in your opinion?
15:04:09 <nsh> sbp, need word
15:04:24 <sbp> nslater: well I'd decide per application. so what's your application?
15:04:29 <sbp> nsh: shootfire
15:04:32 <nslater> think "blog"
15:04:36 <nslater> but not nessesarily
15:04:49 <nsh> "...making <blanket> statements about what we are necessarily incapable of..."
15:04:58 <nsh> something ebtter than blanket, to express unreasonable confidence
15:05:04 <nslater> sweaping
15:05:15 <nsh> like, a factual statement instead of a cautious guess
15:05:27 <nsh> that's pretty good, nslater, not sure if it's what i was reaching for
15:05:29 <nslater> self-assured
15:05:53 * nsh shakes head
15:05:56 <nslater> k
15:06:01 <nsh> one syllable i think
15:06:13 <sbp> bold?
15:06:21 <nsh> hmmm, close
15:06:35 <nslater> bombastic (any excuse to use that word)
15:06:35 <nsh> i think the word specifically relates to stating something as a fact
15:06:39 <nsh> when it is a supposition
15:06:44 <sbp> brash?
15:06:45 * nsh smiles
15:06:50 <nsh> ah, there we go
15:06:54 <nsh> thanks
15:06:58 <nsh> .ety brash
15:06:58 <phenny> "1824, of obscure origin, originally Amer.Eng.; perhaps akin to Scottish brash 'attack, assault' (1533), or Fr. breche 'fragments,' especially of ice, from a Gmc. source (cf. O.H.G. brehha 'breach,' from brehhan 'to break'), or to Ger. brechen 'to vomit.'" - http://etymonline.com/?term=brash
15:07:04 <nsh> sweet
15:07:43 <sbp> :-)
15:07:52 <nsh> and what's the actual word for "hubrous"?
15:08:04 <nslater> hubris
15:08:05 <nsh> hubritic?
15:08:10 <nsh> no, adjective
15:08:13 <nslater> hyperbolous
15:08:17 *** danja__ (n=danny@host28-200-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
15:08:25 <nsh> hubristic
15:08:26 <nsh> i think
15:08:36 <sbp> yeah, I'd go for hubristic
15:08:52 <nsh> man, dissing richard dawkins is a chore
15:08:56 * nsh smiles
15:09:23 <sbp> just call him "The Devil's concubine: Rationality" and be done with it
15:09:33 <nsh> for realz
15:09:49 <nslater> dawkins hate? in my swhack?
15:11:04 <sbp> everybody in here hates Dawkins
15:11:06 <sbp> (except for you)
15:11:10 <nslater> why?
15:11:14 <nslater> give me explanations
15:11:45 <nslater> also, sbp, you should avoid those brash statements disguising your suppositions
15:11:52 * nsh chuckles
15:11:58 <sbp> hehe
15:11:59 <nsh> sbp is exempt from all restrictions
15:12:06 <nslater> oh, k
15:12:14 *** danja__ has quit (Remote closed the connection)
15:12:18 <nsh> everything he utters is a priori factual
15:12:24 <nsh> he has an implicit (FACT)
15:12:33 <nsh> you get it on one of the bonus levels
15:12:34 <sbp> even when I say "sbp is wrong"
15:12:38 <nsh> a lot of cloud-jumping involved too
15:12:39 <nsh> yep
15:12:42 <sbp> I am totals a level breaker
15:12:46 <nsh> the structure of logical determination yields to sbp
15:12:51 <nsh> reals+
15:12:52 <nslater> richard dawkins is a pretty cool guy, eh fights creationists and doesnt afraid of anything
15:12:59 <sbp> gordian-slicing through the layers of paradox
15:14:25 <nsh> richard dawkins is the 21th century embodiment of the adage "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you through experience"
15:14:40 <nsh> but when he's talking to other smart people, he's generally pretty cool
15:14:59 <sbp> hmm. I'd just typed out a big line, but nsh put it better
15:15:12 <sbp> I get the feeling that Dawkins could just as easily have become a Creationist
15:15:17 <nslater> well you prolly have more experience of him than I do, seems pretty cool to me
15:15:20 <sbp> if he were raised in a different place
15:15:37 <sbp> that he's of the fundamentalist mindset, if you will
15:15:47 <sbp> quâ whatever makes it disagreeable
15:16:14 <nslater> I'll quâ your face if you're not careful
15:16:42 <nsh> quá urs4lf
15:16:44 <sbp> as nsh and I observed yesterday, subject material doesn't seem to be the main factor: we found a Jewish thread where they were arguging over the most insanely specific details of scripture without veering into "homosexuality" this and "abortion" that every five seconds
15:17:18 <sbp> and, when you think about it, that seems to be true of Judaism in general. it's a very scholarly language, fundamental in the same sense that people think of Creationist Fundamentalists as being fundamental, and yet is much less culturally disagreeable
15:17:32 <sbp> so the disagreeable aspect must be coming from elsewhere
15:17:39 <sbp> which nsh characterised yesterday as...
15:17:41 * sbp rummages
15:17:53 <nsh> .wik Barkaan
15:17:54 <phenny> "The Dir (Somali: Diir, Arabic: دير) is a Somali clan whose members live mostly in northern, southern and central Somalia, as well as Djibouti and the Ogaden." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dir_(clan)
15:17:58 <nsh> .wik Barkaan dune
15:18:00 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Barkaan dune".
15:18:12 <sbp> 15:20:29 <nsh> it takes another factor entirely to cause the negative aspects of literal adherence
15:18:13 <sbp> 15:20:50 <nsh> something either explicitly political or a collective unconscious abreaction to some societal change
15:18:21 <sbp> 15:21:04 <nsh> which then takes the text as its precipitation point
15:18:26 <nsh> .wik Barchan
15:18:27 <phenny> "A barchan dune is an arc-shaped sand ridge, comprising well-sorted sand." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barchan
15:18:30 <sbp> - http://swhack.com/logs/2008-07-18#T15-20-29
15:18:48 <nsh> Barchans are migrating sand-dunes!
15:18:50 <nsh> ++
15:18:55 <sbp> nice
15:19:01 <nslater> erm
15:19:03 <nslater> ... wtf
15:19:14 <nslater> I was watching a video yesterday that talked about migrating sand dunes
15:19:20 <sbp> hehe
15:19:25 <nslater> it may have been a richard dawkins video actually
15:19:29 <nslater> which would be double weird
15:19:29 <nsh> YOU HAS BEEN PHENOMENISED
15:19:33 <zachb> They do migrate!
15:19:36 <sbp> Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon for wins
15:19:38 <nsh> or, a simple explanation
15:19:45 <nslater> you watched the same video?
15:19:46 <nsh> because i'm watching the same talk
15:19:48 <nsh> but let's stick with weird
15:19:54 <sbp> chuckle
15:19:58 <nslater> aha, still it's one level of Baader-Meinhof
15:19:58 <zachb> chortle
15:20:03 <nslater> zachb: shut up fo
15:20:14 <nsh> snortlecakes
15:20:20 <sbp> .gc snortlecakes
15:20:21 <phenny> snortlecakes: 0
15:20:24 <sbp> want
15:20:26 <nslater> I might make a zachb bot
15:20:31 <sbp> do not want
15:20:39 <zachb> I'm not particularly quotable...
15:20:51 <nslater> every 12 hours it will pipe up to say "erm, what are you guys talking about?" or "lol"
15:20:56 <sbp> hehe
15:21:01 <zachb> I don't really say "lol", though
15:21:08 <zachb> nor "erm"
15:21:09 <nslater> well, paraphrasing ftw
15:21:23 <nslater> I could make it say "asscakes" for all I like
15:21:33 <zachb> shortlecakes!
15:21:34 <sbp> 08:03:16 <therethinker> lol @ topic
15:21:41 <sbp> - 2008-02-25
15:21:44 <zachb> That's once!
15:21:54 <nslater> dont tempt him to grep logs
15:21:54 <Monty> firefox
15:21:58 <nslater> opera
15:22:02 <sbp> IEEEEEEEEEE
15:22:03 <zachb> epiphany
15:22:10 <nslater> amaya (lol)
15:22:10 <zachb> E_INVALID_BROWSER
15:22:43 <zachb> nslater: some might not be valid cases of me actually laughing out loud. It could just be me referring to the phrase itself
15:23:06 <sbp> rump-fed: fat butt
15:23:06 <sbp> runnion: skag, mangy woman
15:23:11 <sbp> - http://utenti.lycos.it/Rocco_Pollina/Shakes.htm
15:24:37 <sbp> We Regret to Announce that your Face is Mingin'
15:24:45 *** danja (n=danny@host80-23-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
15:24:45 <Monty> hi danja, how ya doing?
15:25:05 <nsh> damn you dawkins
15:25:05 <nsh> giving me productivity-tempting ideas
15:25:06 <danja> pretty good ta Monty
15:25:09 <Monty> since hinges are anything but showing that problem
15:25:26 <sbp> danja: is iand still there?
15:25:50 *** danja_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:25:56 <nslater> :(
15:26:03 <danja> nah - was flying back today I think (night over in Pisa)
15:26:19 <sbp> ahas
15:26:28 <sbp> hope he took the obligatory leaning tower picture
15:26:46 <danja> heh, I know the one
15:26:54 <sbp> actually, a little Talis doll holding it up would have been funny
15:27:12 <danja> mr. potatohead you mean?
15:27:15 <sbp> Talis: Keeping the Leaning Tower Up with RDF POWERS
15:27:15 <sbp> hehe
15:27:24 <zachb> Hah!
15:27:46 * nslater defenestrates zachb
15:28:05 <sbp> it was better than an "erm"
15:28:07 <zachb> You have to clean up the glass
15:28:49 <zachb> Oh, you know who I haven't seen on IRC in a while?
15:28:57 <sbp> RobotGuy?
15:29:06 <zachb> Yes, but twoot too
15:29:16 *** nslater has parted #swhack ("facepalm.jpg")
15:29:18 <sbp> twoot was here just the other day!
15:29:21 <sbp> seen twoot
15:29:22 <Monty> twoot (n=twoot) was last seen by me coming from c-76-118-203-70.hsd1.ma.comcast.net on Sat Jul 12 05:05:33 BST 2008 quitting from the server with the following reason: Remote closed the connection
15:29:30 <sbp> one week ago
15:29:46 <zachb> he was?
15:29:50 <zachb> is swhack fixed?
15:29:55 <zachb> *.swhack
15:30:04 <sbp> http://images.google.com/images?q=facepalm.jpg
15:30:06 <sbp> nope
15:31:27 *** nslater (n=nslater@bytesexual.org) has joined #swhack
15:31:32 <nslater> is he gone yet? >XD
15:31:49 <zachb> ...thats an odd face
15:32:03 <nslater> it's an evil grinman
15:32:04 <sbp> not as odd as (:<
15:32:16 <zachb> not really
15:32:19 <sbp> yip yip yip
15:32:22 <sbp> bj0ern: yip yip
15:32:24 <bj0ern> from what i wsnted, i don't think like is the smallest
15:32:25 <nslater> PHWEEP
15:32:37 <zachb> >B-B is the oddest
15:32:50 <zachb> evil dork with glasses
15:33:02 <sbp> and two tongues?
15:33:11 <zachb> those are his buck-teeth
15:33:13 *** danja_ (n=danny@host1-177-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
15:34:59 <nslater> aha..
15:35:01 <nslater> .. found it
15:35:07 <nslater> absolute best emoticon ever
15:35:12 *** dpawson has parted #swhack ("+++ OK ATH OK")
15:35:34 <nslater> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-04-22#T23-55-00
15:35:38 <nslater> 23:55:00 *** nsh has quit ("~~~~@:}{")
15:36:13 <nsh> ah, all-time A+++ ascii quit
15:36:47 <sbp> spectacuwin
15:46:10 <MoiraA> sbp quick
15:46:25 <MoiraA> if you were to delete someone's home directory
15:46:33 <MoiraA> what would be the first thing to do?
15:46:37 <MoiraA> I'm not btw
15:46:39 <MoiraA> theory
15:46:53 <nslater> "first" thing?
15:47:08 <MoiraA> how would you do it
15:47:10 <nslater> as in, how do you do it? or what do you do if you did all ready?
15:47:20 <MoiraA> I have an arrogant twat who is 14 pestering me
15:47:20 <Monty> potty mouth!
15:47:34 <nslater> well, if you are the super user or they have global write perms you would "rm -rf /home/user"
15:47:37 <MoiraA> really needs taking down a peg or two and learning a bit of respect
15:47:55 <MoiraA> that will do nicely
15:47:55 <MoiraA> thanks
15:47:55 <nslater> but...
15:48:00 <nslater> ... that would likely fail in 99% of cases
15:48:38 <nslater> in any situation where you share a machine with someone else (and hence you have access to their home directory) they would have the proper permisions set up to prevent you from doing that command
15:48:51 <nslater> the only way would be if you were the super user
15:48:59 <MoiraA> great stuff
15:49:20 <nslater> if someone's griefing you, just give them a shellbomb XD
15:49:45 <nslater> or send them a zip'o'death :p
15:50:11 <nslater> or apply force to their body using some hilariously heavy real world object
15:50:47 *** danja has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:51:20 <nslater> .c (61333/54876)*100
15:51:21 <phenny> (61 333 / 54 876) * 100 = 111.766528
15:51:55 <nslater> .c (61333/(61333 + 54876))*100
15:51:55 <phenny> (61 333 / (61 333 + 54 876)) * 100 = 52.7781841
15:52:10 <nslater> sweet
15:54:44 <MoiraA> nslater thanks
15:54:48 <nslater> np
15:54:50 <MoiraA> it was fine
15:55:03 <MoiraA> now he is totally silent because I gave him Netcat in the Hat to solve
15:55:18 <MoiraA> he wont find that so easy
15:55:31 <MoiraA> I hope to hell I can work it out
15:55:43 <MoiraA> I can half remember people sitting doing it and what they said
15:55:56 <MoiraA> http://www.ethicalhacker.net/content/view/84/2/
15:56:58 <MoiraA> oh dear
15:57:07 <MoiraA> any intelligent geeks here?
15:57:11 <sbp> nope
15:57:13 <nslater> nope
15:59:03 <MoiraA> is thing one dd
15:59:18 <nslater> dd is a tool for copying data from device to device
15:59:53 <nslater> tell this guy to `sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda`
16:00:11 <sbp> the BSD man page for it summarises it thus: "dd -- convert and copy a file"
16:00:16 <nslater> (but dont blame me when he wants to kill you for tricking him into wiping his hard disk)
16:00:22 *** swhask has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
16:00:30 <sbp> us3
16:00:35 <sbp> use /dev/random
16:00:39 <MoiraA> it is riight
16:00:46 <sbp> then it might restore the same hard drive, by fluke
16:01:04 <nslater> hahaha
16:01:04 <nslater> or it might restor YOUR hardrive, sbp
16:01:05 <sbp> or, like, the same hard drive but with an extra note file saying "lol haxd" in it
16:01:08 <sbp> omg
16:01:57 <nslater> if you really want to wipe your disk, and you dont have access to something that implements the Gutmann alorithm, you should probably do /dev/random, /dev/zero and /dev/random again
16:02:10 *** SinDoc (n=SinDoc@88.82.49.246) has joined #swhack
16:02:11 <sbp> at least eight times
16:02:20 <nslater> no, not really
16:02:25 <nslater> .wik Gutmann alorithm
16:02:27 <phenny> "The Gutmann method is an algorithm for securely erasing the contents of computer hard drives, such as files." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutmann_method
16:02:27 <nslater> a few times maybe
16:02:37 <nslater> hmm
16:02:48 <nslater> actually, you are correct, the Gutmann method does a random pass 8 times
16:02:56 <nslater> 4 at each stage, start and finnish
16:03:33 <nslater> sry sbp
16:03:48 <sbp> I know because DoD compliance requires 7 passes
16:03:49 <sbp> [[[
16:03:50 <sbp> -m, --medium
16:03:50 <sbp> overwrite the file with 7 US DoD compliant passes (0xF6, 0x00,
16:03:52 <sbp> 0xFF, random, 0x00, 0xFF, random)
16:03:54 <sbp> ]]] - man srm
16:04:01 <nslater> cool
16:04:11 <sbp> Gutmann has 35 passes of course
16:04:14 <sbp> which is what srm uses
16:04:32 <nslater> the whole thing is a bit like vodoo though, not a single data recovery outfit will tell you that they can recover data from a disk that has been wiped even once
16:04:40 <sbp> yeah
16:04:46 <sbp> police forensics can though
16:04:47 <nslater> thats not to say that the nsa probably has better tools, but still
16:04:58 <nsh> i can't recover data that hasn't been deleted once
16:04:59 <nsh> :-)
16:05:05 <sbp> hehe
16:05:32 <nslater> with stuff like this, I think that comercial outfits are probably on the same par as the authorities, as they usually are with non-military technology
16:05:41 <nsh> he
16:05:42 <nsh> h
16:06:06 <nsh> what you don't know about military technology should not be surprising
16:06:15 <nslater> of course
16:09:04 * sbp surprises nslater with military technology
16:09:16 <nslater> EEK!
16:09:38 <sbp> .gcs "military trick bits" "military trick bitz" "military trickbits"
16:09:40 <phenny> "military trickbits" (0), "military trick bitz" (0), "military trick bits" (0)
16:09:45 <sbp> oh come on
16:09:58 <sbp> continual battle against googlecount zero and all that
16:10:57 <nsh> FIGHT ON, IRISHLY
16:11:03 <sbp> nu
16:11:20 <nslater> hahaha
16:11:33 <nslater> you know why pwaring left #bytesexual, a while back now?
16:11:44 <nslater> "because people say 'nu' so much, it's stupid"
16:12:05 <nslater> so much pent up srs bsns
16:12:38 <sbp> wow, cool
16:12:45 <sbp> nu is like Darwindust
16:13:08 <nslater> nu is pointful
16:13:11 <nslater> (FACT)
16:13:18 <sbp> nu
16:13:22 <nslater> ｎｕ
16:14:17 <nsh> okey:_{
16:14:17 <nsh> i thought it was because we weren't discussing RDF enough for him
16:14:17 <nsh> my FOAF metadata can be accessed by RPC-XML from an OWL repository
16:14:17 <nsh> (FACT)
16:14:17 <nsh> god, i hate the semantic web
16:14:18 <Monty> Fridays piss take my cake from Gk. empeirikos 'experienced,' from him into if Noia needs to 26
16:14:18 <nsh> oOo?
16:14:20 <nsh> .gc Dawindust
16:14:20 <phenny> Dawindust: 0
16:14:22 <nsh> like pixie dust for survival of the fitest?
16:14:31 <nsh> .gc Darwindust
16:14:31 <phenny> Darwindust: 5
16:14:33 *** kpreid has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:14:35 <sbp> nsh: right
16:14:37 <nsh> .g Darwindust
16:14:37 <phenny> nsh: http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/1_group_presentation/darwindust.htm
16:14:44 <MoiraA> oh I am brilliant
16:14:46 <nslater> part of swhack's ant-noob arsnel
16:14:46 <MoiraA> sbp
16:14:50 <MoiraA> nslater
16:14:51 <nslater> anti-noob
16:14:59 * nslater facepalms
16:14:59 <nsh> all ants are newbs
16:15:02 <MoiraA> do you think I could solve the netcat puzzle
16:15:11 <sbp> I don't know, I haven't read it
16:15:17 <nslater> im not interested in solving it, though I'm sure I probably could given sufficient time
16:15:36 <MoiraA> well, I couldn't
16:15:48 <MoiraA> for a start I don't have sufficient time
16:15:57 <MoiraA> oh ffs
16:16:02 <MoiraA> brain!
16:16:11 <MoiraA> I just copied you nslater
16:16:18 *** eel has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:16:21 <MoiraA> I don't have the programs and linux setup I mean
16:16:46 <MoiraA> I ought to show this to destillat who is asking me how to become a hacker :)
16:16:54 <MoiraA> if he looked at the page
16:17:01 <MoiraA> well, nearby page
16:17:07 <MoiraA> there is a link to the winning answer
16:17:15 <nslater> he's asking you how to become a hacker?
16:17:21 <MoiraA> they are all dumbstruck in #defocus
16:17:31 <nsh> s/dumbstuck/idiots/
16:17:40 * nslater joins for lolz
16:17:41 <MoiraA> nslater
16:17:46 <MoiraA> don't give the game away
16:17:49 <nslater> okay
16:17:53 <MoiraA> it was all chat before
16:17:58 <MoiraA> freefull showing off
16:18:06 <MoiraA> now nobody has spoken for ages
16:18:11 <MoiraA> freefull is strangely silent
16:20:04 <sbp> chuckle. sbp and nslater immediately turn on the charm
16:21:18 <MoiraA> chuckle
16:21:20 <MoiraA> lame excuse
16:21:29 <MoiraA> he just couldn't type the answer in fast enough
16:21:44 <MoiraA> I am usually quite nice
16:22:05 <MoiraA> but I can't stand people who think they can be rude because they are so much more leet and superior to me
16:23:57 *** danja__ (n=danny@host56-239-static.12-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
16:24:20 <MoiraA> heh freefull is saying nothing much at all now
16:24:30 <MoiraA> before it was PMs everywhere
16:24:39 <MoiraA> for 14, very cheeky
16:24:55 <MoiraA> I have already got one ircop and one other person PMming me to ask how I did it
16:25:53 *** sbp changed the topic to: "█̈▄̈ █̈█̈█̈ █̈▄̈ █̈▄̈█̈▄̈█̈ █̈▄̈█̈ ▀̈█̈▀̈"
16:26:04 <nslater> oh man, i cant see that on my shitty client
16:26:11 <sbp> it's extremely winful
16:26:37 <nslater> i suspect it's lol wut in block letters with multiple combiners
16:26:42 <nslater> which sounds pretty winful
16:27:06 <sbp> nslater: http://g.photos.cx/lolwut-61.png
16:27:16 <nslater> oh man...
16:27:21 <nslater> i am taking that for my black book too
16:27:57 <nslater> what client do you use, looks cool
16:28:07 <sbp> X-Chat Aqua
16:28:12 <sbp> for total wins
16:28:18 <sbp> except that you can't reorder tabs
16:28:32 <sbp> but its unicode support is just outrageously good
16:30:15 *** panni_ (i=hannes@ip-88-152-22-213.hsi.ish.de) has joined #swhack
16:31:11 <sbp> more lollery: Ħeħ
16:31:12 <nsh> panni_: STATE POSSUM
16:35:56 *** cskaterun has quit ()
16:38:43 <sbp> [[[
16:38:44 <sbp> Fatal error: SELECT command denied to user 'nurface'@'localhost' for table 'users' query: SELECT u.*, s.* FROM users u INNER JOIN sessions s ON u.uid = s.uid WHERE s.sid = 'd0d0d67269337474fa1ad1beeb3c9925' AND u.status < 3 LIMIT 0, 1 in /home/nurface/public_html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 125
16:38:49 <sbp> ]]] - http://nurface.com/
16:38:54 <sbp> (software: drupal)
16:40:50 <Monty> nslater: You asked me to remind you to rent Primer (film)
16:40:56 <nslater> oh shit...
16:41:01 <nslater> okay, thanks Monteyface
16:41:07 *** danja_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:42:13 *** nslater changed the topic to: "█̈▄̈ █̈█̈█̈ █̈▄̈ █̈▄̈█̈▄̈█̈ █̈▄̈█̈ ▀̈█̈▀̈ | swhack, we're all 13 years old"
16:42:30 <nsh> (toatz)
16:42:33 <melbel> >_>
16:42:36 <sbp> hehe
16:42:43 <nsh> 13 is the new black
16:42:57 <sbp> ¿nu?
16:43:00 <nsh> sadly, i had more computer skils at 13 than i do now
16:43:05 <nsh> *skills
16:43:09 <sbp> sadly? that's good!
16:43:20 <sbp> that means that past you can build the foundation on which you can live your computer life
16:43:25 <nsh> all sadly is good mang
16:43:32 <sbp> also you can outsource your coding problems to the past
16:43:37 <nsh> SWEET
16:43:46 <nslater> bah...
16:43:53 <nsh> we should get veture capital for this proposal
16:44:04 <sbp> Aspectualisation 2000™
16:44:07 <nsh> nslater, get some veture capital while you're at blockbusters
16:44:12 <nslater> nsh, I can dontate internets
16:44:22 * nslater packs up and heads for the video store
16:44:59 <nsh> i'll take eleventy
16:45:14 <sbp> .wik Primer (film)
16:45:15 <phenny> "Primer is a 2004 science fiction film about the accidental invention of time travel." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primer_(film)
16:45:30 <sbp> how apperappose
16:45:45 *** lordi (i=NOUSER@89.166.194.76) has joined #swhack
16:46:47 <nsh> is too awesome for wikipedia
16:48:31 * nsh definitely needs sugar
16:50:46 <nsh> .ety gluttaral
16:50:47 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "gluttaral". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=gluttaral
16:50:53 <nsh> .ety gluttural
16:50:54 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "gluttural". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=gluttural
16:50:54 * sbp transmutes nsh into a sucrose-glucose syrup
16:50:57 <nsh> nu
16:51:06 <nsh> mmmmmm
16:51:21 <nsh> .ety gluttoral
16:51:22 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "gluttoral". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=gluttoral
16:51:27 <nsh> DIENAO
16:51:32 *** cskaterun (n=cskateru@cpe-24-30-130-132.san.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
16:52:14 <nsh> cskaterun: STATE PENDULUM
16:52:30 <cskaterun> PENDULUM
16:53:04 <nsh> .ety glottal
16:53:05 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "glottal". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=glottal
16:53:24 <nsh> .ety glottis
16:53:25 <phenny> "1578, from Gk. glottis 'mouth of the windpipe,' from glotta, Attic dial. variant of glossa 'tongue.' Glottal is first recorded 1846." - http://etymonline.com/?term=glottis
16:56:41 <sbp> ▀█▀ ███ ███ ▀█▀ ▀█▀ ███ ███ ▀█▀
16:56:45 <sbp> (toot toot)
16:56:50 <sbp> █ █▀█ ▀█▀ █▄█ █ ▀█▀ █ ███ █▀█
16:56:52 <sbp> (intuition)
17:01:33 <nsh> wtfwtfwtfwtf
17:01:34 <nsh> .wik Amoeba dubia
17:01:35 <phenny> "The Amoeba dubia is the largest species of the genus Amoebozoa, more commonly referred to as Amoeba." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoeba_dubia
17:01:46 <nsh> ^^ genome is 200 times the size of human
17:02:38 <nsh> http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/02_01/Sizing_genomes.shtml
17:04:05 <nsh> .wik Archea
17:04:06 <phenny> "The Archaea [ɑrˈkiə] (help·info) are a group of single-celled microorganisms." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archea
17:04:15 <nsh> 'ancient ones'
17:05:12 * nsh watching:
17:05:20 *** cskaterun has quit ()
17:05:26 <nsh> .g enriquez TED talk new zoo
17:05:27 <phenny> nsh: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/juan_enriquez_on_genomics_and_our_future.html
17:07:18 <nsh> and sneezin' like it ain't no thang
17:09:31 <nsh> ugh
17:09:38 <nsh> he had to ruin it by being an idiot
17:09:52 <sbp> he didn't turn out to be a chick after all?
17:10:08 <nsh> nah :-/
17:21:09 *** nsh- (n=nsh@d85-194-245-82.cust.wlannet.com) has joined #swhack
17:24:29 <MoiraA> huh?
17:24:31 <MoiraA> you are nsh
17:24:46 <MoiraA> I mean you didn't leave
17:24:46 <MoiraA> you arrived
17:24:49 <MoiraA> and then arrived again
17:24:50 <MoiraA> ah
17:24:51 <MoiraA> -
17:26:36 *** kpreid (n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
17:26:37 <Monty> welcome, kpreid
17:29:26 *** swhask (n=swhask@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
17:30:31 *** eel (n=PircBot@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
17:32:40 <kpreid> h> do map <- mapM (\c -> (c, ['a'..'z'])); s <- map (\c -> fromMaybe c (lookup c map)) "welcome, kpreid"; guard ("monty" `isInfixOf` s); return s
17:32:41 <Monty> spectacuwin
17:32:41 <swhask> ghc: failed with error code 127
17:33:29 *** nsh has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:34:57 <sbp> .ety inhere
17:34:58 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "inhere". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=inhere
17:58:55 <nslater> wtf
17:59:00 <sbp> nurwtf
17:59:09 <nslater> why did swhask pipe up
17:59:09 <sbp> &c.
17:59:17 <sbp> because kpreid invoked it
17:59:25 <sbp> see two lines above
17:59:39 <nslater> oh
17:59:47 <nslater> ▀█▀ ███ ███ ▀█▀ ▀█▀ ███ ███ ▀█▀
18:00:00 <nslater> so, the video shop dinne have tha film
18:00:07 <sbp> ônoez̈
18:00:09 <sbp> what did you do?
18:00:31 <nslater> i got rickey gervais live instead, as like a booby prize for having walked there
18:00:38 <nslater> ive seen all the good films they have in stock :(
18:01:02 <sbp> Ricky Gervais is awesome
18:01:05 <sbp> that man has nuts
18:01:09 <nslater> oh man, my emopart earlier has put swhack on window 10
18:01:27 <nslater> also, i have hawt chix commin' round in T-59 minutes, so comedy is good
18:01:43 <nslater> this be same hawt chix who gave me like two hours notice last time too
18:01:45 <sbp> especially if it's comedy which the last joke of is... romantic
18:01:56 <sbp> en guard
18:02:01 <nslater> totally
18:02:13 <nslater> i like that hawt chix lined up
18:02:27 <sbp> not in my uberfont
18:02:37 <nslater> lrn2monospace
18:03:02 <sbp> lrn2nolonger1953
18:03:21 <nslater> but with monospace i can dump rms's head in the channel for the winz
18:03:33 <sbp> yeah, but nobody else can see it
18:03:37 <sbp> it's like a secret rms head
18:03:38 <Monty> Dialekt: really? nice uri
18:03:43 <sbp> shup foo
18:03:49 <nslater> well, all the othr leet open saurce haxers can
18:04:03 <sbp> but they already know what rms's head looks like
18:04:08 <sbp> they're the ones who need it least
18:04:17 <nslater> touche
18:06:02 * nslater touches sbp
18:06:19 <sbp> you manlick
18:06:36 <sbp> .wik Cowlick
18:06:37 <phenny> "A cowlick appears when the growth direction of the hair forms a spiral pattern." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowlick
18:06:40 <sbp> .wik Manlick
18:06:42 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Manlick".
18:09:06 <nslater> oh man...
18:09:10 <nslater> I was about to type
18:09:11 <nslater> erm
18:09:17 <sbp> ( o ) ( o )
18:09:28 <nslater> "right, I must off to ready my boudoir" but I decided to check the meaning of the word first...
18:09:35 <nslater> "Boudoir is a French word whose original meaning was "pouting room." In earlier times, if a young lady was sulky, she was sent to her boudoir where she could pout in private."
18:09:42 <sbp> bwahaha
18:09:44 <nslater> thats so awesome
18:10:21 * nslater -> afk
18:11:15 <sbp> have wins
18:13:19 <nslater> thx
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18:26:21 <deltab> speaking of time travel movies, Timeline is on Film4
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18:57:28 <sbp> nsh: what news hath ye of berkspace?
19:03:43 *** darkmatter (n=gmt@216.147.139.234) has joined #swhack
19:03:44 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's darkmatter!
19:03:54 <sbp> hi darkmatter. welcome to Swhack
19:03:59 <sbp> this is a publically logged channel
19:04:14 <sbp> what up?
19:04:30 <darkmatter> same old, same old
19:04:41 <sbp> what brings you to Swhack?
19:05:02 <darkmatter> nothing better to do
19:05:10 <sbp> okay. how did you hear about us?
19:05:32 <darkmatter> been here before sbp
19:05:40 <sbp> ah. under what nickname?
19:06:05 <darkmatter> smith-something
19:06:26 <darkmatter> so what's going on? slow day?
19:06:56 <
