2008-07-23 Swhack IRC Log

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00:11:25 <jsled> Damnit, why doesn't emacs have a lorem ipsum generator, yet?
00:28:23 <BigJibby> Monty: please don't talk to me.
00:28:23 <Monty> Does talking about this bother you ?
00:28:54 <BigJibby> Monty: no. Does it bother you?
00:28:56 <Monty> As we all know, incense is speeding :(
00:29:21 <BigJibby> well said, Monty, well said
00:29:22 <Monty> s/did/does/, really worried
00:29:51 <BigJibby> Monty: that just won't work
00:29:52 <Monty> rofl: 29,700,000
00:30:00 <BigJibby> lolwut
00:33:32 <jsled> God damnit. http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/07/22/wipeout-hd-delayed-due-to-epilepsy-test-failure/
00:33:45 <jsled> I DON"T HAVE EPILESPY GIMME WIPEOUT HD NOW!
00:40:25 <clsn> .gs walking with *
00:40:26 <phenny> clsn: sorry, .gs no longer works
00:40:30 <clsn> Foop.
00:41:30 * BigJibby has a seizure reading ALL THE CAPS
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00:42:57 * BigJibby declares jsled an EPILESPY failure
00:45:19 <BigJibby> .gc epilespy
00:45:20 <phenny> epilespy: 18,000
00:47:24 <BigJibby> .gc epilepsy
00:47:25 <phenny> epilepsy: 13,700,000
00:48:23 <BigJibby> .gc lips
00:48:24 <phenny> lips: 101,000,000
00:48:32 <BigJibby> .compare lips lisp
00:48:33 <phenny> BigJibby: .compare has been replaced by .gcs (googlecounts)
00:48:56 <BigJibby> phenny: why can't you have aliases?
00:49:11 <BigJibby> .gcs lips lisp
00:49:12 <phenny> lisp (14,600,000), lips (6,390,000)
00:51:00 <BigJibby> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/lisp.jpg
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01:11:48 <saml> .gs i can't * without *
01:11:48 <phenny> saml: sorry, .gs no longer works
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02:44:54 <clsn> omfg http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1823766 is funny. I think it's a link from here from earlier today I finally followed.
03:10:11 <clsn> Yeah, something zachb said.
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03:36:57 <Monty> But what does to have to do with the price of fish?
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03:44:59 <Arnia> clsn: that was very good
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03:56:02 <Monty> hi intrigue, how ya doing?
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04:42:08 <Arnia> phenny, tell zachb to look at http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/llvm
04:42:09 <phenny> Arnia: I'll pass that on when zachb is around.
04:55:34 <jsled> phenny: tell sbp, *gasp* The Tenmen. http://www.achewood.com/index.php?date=07222008
04:55:35 <phenny> jsled: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
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04:56:58 <xover> «According to his sister, [Alexander] Pope would never go for a walk without the company of his Great Dane, Bounce, and a pair of loaded pistols in his pocket.»
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05:06:13 <jsled> Nifty: http://rrr.thetruth.de/2008/07/openssh-51-and-ascii-art-fingerprints/
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05:11:00 <xover> Nice.
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05:12:42 <Monty> bah, it's d3llboy again
05:37:34 <Mike_L_> Monty: I'm here, too
05:37:35 <Monty> has counting revolutions?
05:37:42 <Mike_L_> countdown
05:37:42 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 75, 2, 4, 5, 10, 10. Your target is 728. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
05:38:12 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
05:38:14 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 63 milliseconds. I found all 48 solutions in about 94 milliseconds.
05:38:15 <Monty> ibot (75 + 4 - 5)*10 - 2 - 10
05:38:16 <d8uv> .calc 75 + 2 + 4 + 5 + 10 + 10
05:38:26 <d8uv> T_T
05:38:38 <Mike_L_> .calc 75*10 - 10 - 10 - 2
05:38:41 <Mike_L_> oops
05:38:59 <d8uv> I think I still win
05:39:28 <Mike_L_> .calc (75 - 2)*10 - 10/5
05:39:37 <Mike_L_> your solution wasn't even close
05:39:52 <d8uv> Bullshit
05:39:58 <Mike_L_> and where's phenny
05:40:01 <d8uv> It was almost on the money!
05:40:14 <d8uv> I think
05:40:19 <Mike_L_> it was at least off by a factor of 6
05:40:33 <Mike_L_> phenny: what's wrong with your calculator?
05:40:41 <d8uv> I know! That's close, right?
05:41:03 <d8uv> I mean I could have typed 75*2*4*5*10*10
05:41:11 <d8uv> That would have been way off
05:42:00 <Mike_L_> I was off by a factor of 1.014
05:42:45 <Mike_L_> phenny: calc 1+1
05:42:52 * Arnia covers Mike_L_ with Weetabix
05:43:05 * Arnia douses him subsequently with gold top
05:43:07 <Mike_L_> phenny is nonresponsive :/
05:43:23 <Arnia> I should buy some gold top later
05:43:23 <d8uv> .g how to fix phenny
05:43:24 * Mike_L_ grabs a carton of 1% milk and a spoon
05:43:25 <phenny> d8uv: http://svg.jibbering.com/svg/2005-12-12.html
05:43:34 <Mike_L_> Arnia: gold top?
05:43:35 <Arnia> 1% milk?
05:43:37 <Mike_L_> .g gold top
05:43:38 <phenny> Mike_L_: http://www.gold-top.co.uk/
05:43:43 <Arnia> .wik gold top milk
05:43:45 <phenny> "Milk is an opaque white liquid produced by the mammary glands of female mammals (including monotremes)." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk
05:43:48 <Mike_L_> .title http://www.gold-top.co.uk/
05:43:50 <phenny> Mike_L_: Gold Top
05:43:51 * Arnia rolls his eyes
05:44:09 <Arnia> Gold top is the class of milk often called 'Channel Islands milk'
05:44:16 <Mike_L_> ah
05:44:27 <d8uv> Ugh, I don't think platypus milk can be considered milk
05:45:09 <phenny> d8uv: Sorry, can't calculate that.
05:45:25 <d8uv> ...
05:45:30 <phenny> Mike_L_: Sorry, can't calculate that.
05:45:43 <Arnia> Mike_L_: so called, because the foil cover code for it is gold
05:45:47 <d8uv> Way to be, Phenny
05:46:03 <Arnia> (as opposed to silver for full-fat milk, red and silver for semi-skimmed, etc.)
05:46:20 <phenny> Mike_L_: Sorry, can't calculate that.
05:48:28 <Mike_L_> Arnia: what percentage of milkfat is in gold-top?
05:50:07 <d8uv> calc is broke cause the webapp phenny uses to calc is broke
05:50:38 <Arnia> 5%
05:51:05 <Arnia> (according to www.gold-top.co.uk)
05:55:24 <Arnia> .c 5% of 1 pint times 1.3kg per decimetre cubed
05:55:24 <phenny> (5% of (1 US pint)) times (1.3 (kg per (decimeter cubed))) = 30.7564707 grams
05:55:34 <Arnia> .c 5% of 1 UK pint times 1.3kg per decimetre cubed
05:55:35 <phenny> (5% of (1 Imperial pint)) times (1.3 (kg per (decimeter cubed))) = 36.9369965 grams
05:55:58 * Arnia just guessed the density of milk
05:56:23 <Arnia> Your pints are tiny
05:56:34 <Arnia> .c 1 US pint in UK pints
05:56:34 <phenny> 1 US pint = 0.83267384 Imperial pints
05:56:43 <Arnia> .c 1 US pint in ml
05:56:43 <phenny> 1 US pint = 473.176473 ml
05:56:49 <Arnia> .c 1 UK pint in ml
05:56:50 <phenny> 1 Imperial pint = 568.261485 ml
05:56:55 <d8uv> music news: `M.I.A - Paper Planes` is a song I really, really want to hate, but can't
05:57:35 <Arnia> .c 1 US pint in fl oz
05:57:36 <phenny> 1 US pint = 16 US fluid ounces
05:57:41 <Arnia> .c 1 US pint in UK fl oz
05:57:41 <phenny> Arnia: Sorry, no result.
05:58:00 <Arnia> .c 1 UK pint in fl oz
05:58:01 <phenny> 1 Imperial pint = 19.2152068 US fluid ounces
05:58:14 <Arnia> hm
06:06:42 <Mike_L_> zomg 5% milkfat is a lot
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07:05:45 * jeanniecool has just discovered Teh Limerick Database
07:05:55 <d8uv> ...
07:06:14 <jeanniecool> howdy, d8uv!
07:06:16 <jeanniecool> http://limerickdb.com/
07:06:25 <jeanniecool> From Randall Munroe, the XKCD guy.
07:06:40 <jeanniecool> Some quite delightful ones: http://limerickdb.com/?top150
07:07:15 <xover> Does it have one that explains why my VM size is 74GB?
07:07:46 <xover> This box has 8GB of physical RAM and it's still bogged down in swapping.
07:08:12 <xover> Which, not to put too fine a point on it, is insane!
07:08:59 <Arnia> Mike_L_: only to someone from a culture which prefers watered down flavours :p
07:09:20 <Arnia> xover: you've exploded teh universe?
07:09:50 <Arnia> how curious :p
07:13:16 <xover> Hmm. I wonder if it's related to Parallels.
07:13:44 <xover> How does Parallels handle virtual memory for its virtual machines?
07:13:55 <Arnia> iduno
07:14:49 <xover> If it intercepts the virtual machine's VM and integrates it with the host OS's VM then I could understand it; one of the VMs is Windows Vista…
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07:16:07 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's danja_!
07:17:32 <Arnia> danja_: you are Windows Vista apparently
07:17:32 <danja_> morning Monty
07:17:41 <danja_> nononononono
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07:17:44 <Monty> usually requires a card with words, I think due to wait till i got kicked out there". It should launch ¹=<http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/07/21/scee-littlebigplanet-user-generated-content-free-at-launch/>. But penguins are
07:17:45 <Arnia> My commiserations
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07:17:48 <Monty> welcome, d8uv
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08:49:55 <sbp> yo
08:49:55 <phenny> sbp: 22 Jul 21:37Z <clsn> tell sbp does phenny have a convert to/from quoted-printable feature? And if not why not?
08:49:57 <phenny> sbp: 04:55Z <jsled> tell sbp *gasp* The Tenmen. http://www.achewood.com/index.php?date=07222008
08:52:19 <sbp> woah, Tenmen. sweet
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08:52:52 <d8uv> oh
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08:56:16 <d8uv> hey sbp
08:58:37 <cre8radix> hey d8uv
08:59:43 <cre8radix> got time for a new radio:trx script?
09:01:20 <cre8radix> moin:zen
09:03:36 <d8uv> I... yeah maybe?
09:04:01 <d8uv> I'm actually a little busy ATM, but... the weekend is GO
09:04:12 <d8uv> .calc 2+2
09:06:37 <d8uv> so sbp: frink in the .calc module is broken. Also write "Little known facts about bleach" for ohgodinternet.
09:08:34 <Arnia> sbp: eat bananas
09:10:13 <Arnia> Transferring links between channels: http://hexmen.com/blog/2008/07/microformats-dark-data-and-css-part-2/
09:10:16 <Arnia> .title
09:10:18 <phenny> Arnia: Ash Searle’s Blog » Blog Archive » Microformats, dark data and CSS - part 2
09:11:05 <phenny> d8uv: Sorry, can't calculate that.
09:11:54 <Arnia> Monty: Sorry, can't coruscate that.
09:11:55 <Monty> yay, N95
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09:26:05 <sbp> phenny: tell xover wow, did you see SHK 19.0426 Top 10 Books on Shakespeare From the 90s? I'm not tempted by a single book on that list... moreover I think it's a good example of what we were talking about the other day... :-)
09:26:05 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when xover is around.
09:37:23 <d8uv> ...
09:43:34 <d8uv> ?
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09:47:43 <Arnia> sbp: Now, have you already seen this? http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1823766
09:48:21 <Arnia> (from clsn earlier)
09:48:38 <sbp> oh man, chuckles
09:48:55 <d8uv> That video pisses me off, as noone should be happy about comic sans
09:49:44 <Jibbler2> i saw a canal barge near here called Ariel, but it was written in ms comic sans
09:49:47 <Jibbler2> i nearly drowned in irony
09:50:44 <sbp> man this is so much luls
09:51:19 <d8uv> .t sbp
09:51:20 <phenny> d8uv: Sorry, I don't know about the 'sbp' timezone.
09:51:24 <d8uv> !
09:51:24 <Monty> "I disagree." "Ginsperg's Law! HAH!"
09:51:39 <Arnia> d8uv: I take that as part of the irony
09:51:49 * Arnia hits Monty for relaying conversations between channels
09:51:49 <Monty> He could impose a problem. Assuming that means his audition tape, one bottle. Paracetamol, mouthwash, vitamins. Mineral water, Lucozade, pornography. One television series adapted by chance i should buy the api
09:52:23 <Arnia> Lucozade AND pornography?
09:52:26 * Arnia blinks
09:53:39 <sbp> http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44854000/jpg/_44854840_lesbos_afp226b.jpg
09:53:53 <d8uv> lol
09:53:55 *** sbp changed the topic to: "IF YOU ARE NOT FROM LESBOS YOU ARE NOT A LESBIAN"
09:54:06 * Jibbler2 is a lesbian trapped in a man's body
09:55:16 <sbp> ahahaha:
09:55:17 <sbp> [[[
09:55:17 <sbp> A campaigner against Heathrow Airport's third runway has attempted to glue himself to Gordon Brown at a Downing Street reception.
09:55:23 <sbp> ]]] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7520401.stm
09:55:23 <Monty> B(astard|unny)
09:55:27 <sbp> .title
09:55:28 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | Politics | Campaigner 'glues himself to PM'
09:56:07 <sbp> oh dear, BBC News is pulling a Mail:
09:56:09 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/7520057.stm
09:56:11 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | England | Tees | Stranded ducks are escorted home
09:57:10 * Arnia lobs a walking catfish at them
09:59:19 <Arnia> Lesbos from Lesbos
09:59:23 <Arnia> fun
10:00:05 <sbp> hehe
10:01:28 <cre8radix> .c 2+2
10:01:28 <phenny> 2 + 2 = 4
10:01:47 * Arnia murders cereal
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10:37:26 <Monty> hi danieljohnlewis
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10:38:39 <Monty> lo danieljohnlewis
10:57:05 <nsh-> .c 80 EUR in GBP
10:57:06 <phenny> 80 Euros = 63.1672026 British pounds
10:57:24 <nsh-> .c 1 EUR in GBP
10:57:25 <phenny> 1 Euro = 0.789590032 British pounds
10:58:03 <Arnia> .c 1 USD in GBP
10:58:03 <phenny> 1 U.S. dollar = 0.502411576 British pounds
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11:22:04 <sbp> FEEDBACKS PLEASE
11:22:07 <sbp> .title http://ohgodinternet.tumblr.com/post/43250909/facts-about-bleach
11:22:08 <phenny> sbp: ohgodinternet - Facts About Bleach
11:22:16 <sbp> - a d8uv and sbp comedy presentation
11:24:36 <cre8radix> bj0ern: there?
11:24:38 <bj0ern> monty
11:24:39 <Monty> Odd that kinda fun
11:24:48 <ragsagar> Monty,
11:24:48 <Monty> Well, OS X?
11:24:53 <ragsagar> Monty,
11:24:53 <Monty> ftw
11:24:56 <ragsagar> Monty,
11:24:58 <Monty> basically, the contract.
11:25:01 <ragsagar> Monty,
11:25:03 <Monty> Hangin out i would still undefeated
11:25:07 <ragsagar> Monty,
11:25:11 <Monty> If you had any friends, they would all kiss Danish slides!
11:25:16 <ragsagar> Monty,
11:25:22 <Monty> Amazon is almost as can bring him poetry in with qwerty's are not with 3g coverage, without the kicker
11:25:28 <cre8radix> sbp: nice
11:25:30 <sbp> ragsagar: shup foo
11:25:35 <ragsagar> Monty,
11:25:38 <Monty> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_gradation
11:25:42 <ragsagar> sbp, shup?
11:25:48 <sbp> yeah
11:25:51 <cre8radix> sbp: where's björn?
11:26:00 <sbp> cre8radix: we had him assassinated. didn't you see?
11:26:04 <sbp> he'll be back in a few months
11:26:05 <cre8radix> hrhr
11:26:06 <cre8radix> nope
11:26:10 <sbp> (we're not quite sure how that works)
11:26:53 <ragsagar> sbp, you are the author of phenny,isnt it?
11:27:01 <d8uv> And be "we", sbp means that he had me stand outside his house with water balloons and a tazer
11:27:09 <d8uv> No I am
11:27:32 <cre8radix> sbp: how would you say "the fear which the priviliged have of all the world and his brother"?
11:27:38 <ragsagar> O_o
11:27:44 <cre8radix> does that make sense?
11:27:50 <sbp> cre8radix: er. well. that's a pretty good way of putting it
11:27:52 <sbp> yeah
11:27:59 <ragsagar> sbp, your shellbot was really great
11:28:10 <sbp> thanks. hope it was usefuls
11:28:21 <cre8radix> in german it would be: Die Angst der Privilegierten vor Gott und der Welt
11:28:41 <sbp> the angst the priviliged for God and the World
11:28:49 <sbp> RIGHT ON
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11:29:15 <ragsagar> sbp, shelly is made from your shellbot
11:29:17 <ragsagar> :)
11:29:19 <sbp> 'k
11:29:53 <ragsagar> sbp, me and my friend added lot of functions to it
11:30:00 * Arnia looks askance
11:30:04 <ragsagar> shelly, say hi to sbp
11:30:06 <shelly> hi sbp
11:30:11 <Arnia> May I get the Book out?
11:30:18 <sbp> yes, please do...
11:30:22 <ragsagar> shelly, fortune
11:30:24 <shelly> ragsagar: Life is like a tin of sardines. We're, all of us, looking for the key. -- Beyond the Fringe
11:30:45 * Arnia whistles for the Book, which comes flying into his hand knocking out cre8radix in the process
11:30:52 * Arnia juggles it a bit
11:31:01 <Arnia> Should have worn the gauntlets for this
11:31:01 <ragsagar> sbp, your bots are really cool
11:31:02 <cre8radix> hrhr
11:31:25 * Arnia carefully opens the Book and lets shelly be eaten
11:31:30 <cre8radix> sbp: so it does make sense?
11:31:46 *** r0hit (n=r0hit@122.167.64.81) has joined #swhack
11:31:58 <ragsagar> shelly, say hi to r0hit
11:32:00 <shelly> hi r0hit
11:32:07 <cre8radix> if i'd say it like that, you would understand that the privileged are scared of everything?
11:32:39 <cre8radix> priviliged
11:32:44 <d8uv> shelly, say hi to my penis, it's a happy penis
11:32:46 <shelly> hi my
11:33:03 <clsn> Oi, sbp, if you didn't see this yesterday when zachb mentioned it: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1823766 omfg....
11:33:08 <Arnia> shelly, say hi to oblivion
11:33:09 <shelly> hi oblivion
11:33:13 * Arnia nukes shelly
11:33:18 <sbp> yeah, Arnia showeded me it
11:33:28 <Arnia> .title http://codecave.org/?weblog_id=quadentry_in_clutter
11:33:28 <phenny> Arnia: codecave.org/
11:33:29 <Morbus> .c 58097/2193142 * 100
11:33:30 <phenny> (58 097 / 2 193 142) * 100 = 2.64903048
11:33:36 <sbp> cre8radix: yeah, makes sense to me
11:33:39 <cre8radix> shelly is on a joyride through the windshield of oblivion
11:33:40 <clsn> 'K. Dang that was good.
11:33:43 <Morbus> hrm. .02 percent every 100 points.
11:33:44 <Morbus> interesting
11:33:46 *** d8uv changed the topic to: "Stop linking to that font conference video, everyone has seen it. Thanks, the mgmt."
11:33:52 <cre8radix> sbp: thx
11:33:56 <sbp> heheh
11:33:57 <sbp> yw
11:33:59 <Morbus> wtf. it's a d8uv.
11:34:11 <sbp> not just any old d8uv either
11:34:16 <sbp> a direct descendant of the original!
11:34:18 <ragsagar> stupid shelly
11:34:19 <shelly> ragsagar, idiot
11:34:24 <d8uv> I know I showered!
11:34:26 <Morbus> i thought you were abducted by the little people.
11:34:39 <sbp> they let him go when they found out he smelled
11:34:45 <Morbus> good trick.
11:34:46 * nslater waves
11:34:47 <Arnia> Morbus: what? Noel Edmonds?
11:34:57 <sbp> then he showered, for itony
11:35:00 <sbp> ITONY
11:35:02 <d8uv> Please, call them freakish midgets, they hate it when you're all PC with them
11:35:03 <sbp> yo nslater
11:35:20 * Arnia shoves nslater into the Book auch
11:35:24 <clsn> .ety boy
11:35:25 <phenny> "1154, boie 'servant, commoner, knave, boy,' possibly from O.Fr. embuie 'one fettered,' from V.L. *imboiare, from L. boia 'leg iron, yoke, leather collar,' from Gk. boeiai dorai 'ox hides.' But it also appears to be identical with E.Fris. boi 'young gentleman,' and [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=boy
11:35:25 <ragsagar> shelly, say hi to phenny
11:35:26 <shelly> hi phenny
11:35:26 <phenny> Hello shelly!
11:35:34 <Arnia> shelly, curl up and die
11:35:48 <ragsagar> Arnia, tell it to get lost :D
11:35:49 <Arnia> Or at least achieve maximum entropy
11:35:49 <nslater> shelly: say hi to shelly
11:35:57 <d8uv> shelly, say hi to ##########rm%20-rf%20*
11:35:58 <ragsagar> shelly, goaway
11:35:58 <shelly> hi ##########rm%20-rf%20*
11:35:59 <shelly> ragsagar: Iam away
11:35:59 <clsn> Whaddaya think, sbp, wouldn't you have thought it might have something cognate with Russian? and Finnish poikan?
11:36:23 <nslater> shelly, say hi to 咒
11:36:24 <shelly> hi 咒
11:36:25 <ragsagar> shelly, get_lost
11:36:36 <ragsagar> bye shelly
11:36:38 <shelly> ragsagar:bye..c ya later
11:36:41 <sbp> what, boy? I would have thought it was Germanic for a start, though the -oi on the end does make it sound rather French
11:36:55 <ragsagar> shelly, say bye to sbp
11:36:56 <shelly> bye sbp
11:36:59 <sbp> bye shelly
11:37:01 <shelly> sbp:bye..c ya later
11:37:06 <nslater> wow, this is a pretty advanced bot
11:37:07 *** ragsagar has quit ("Born Free ,Taxed to Death :P")
11:37:12 <Monty> Woah, dude, chill out...
11:37:12 <clsn> Yeah... but I'm just musing on the similarity across several languages.
11:37:25 <sbp> Monty: NU
11:37:27 <Monty> pissy beard ;)
11:37:30 <sbp> hehe
11:37:33 <nslater> lol
11:37:40 <d8uv> You see if I remembered how to op myself I would have done that ages ago
11:37:44 <sbp> clsn: ah, but beware the old dog-syndrome
11:37:53 <clsn> Which one's that?
11:38:00 <clsn> Hmm, where's that link...
11:38:14 <sbp> some paper that found verbal similarities in the word dog across 80% of the world's languages or something, and then was later lolled at and discredited quite strongly
11:38:17 <clsn> .g chance resemblance among languages
11:38:18 <phenny> clsn: http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm
11:38:21 <clsn> That's the one.
11:38:24 * nslater has an email from someone at OSCON saying Leah Culver says hi <3
11:38:32 <sbp> neato
11:38:37 <clsn> I'd heard it with other words, but yeah.
11:38:40 <sbp> .pix Leah Culver
11:38:44 <nslater> hehe
11:38:51 <Arnia> .underwear Leah Culver
11:38:54 <nslater> oh man
11:38:59 <clsn> sbp, check that zompist article if you haven't already read it.
11:39:08 <sbp> -> http://cache.valleywag.com/assets/resources/2008/03/LeahFancy.jpg
11:39:17 <sbp> tell her I say hi too
11:40:03 <nslater> hehe, she's a python programmer and she's been playing with CouchDB apparently
11:40:17 <sbp> oh, a fetishist? bleh
11:40:25 <nslater> ehwhatnow?
11:40:35 <sbp> tinkering with CouchDB. gone off her already
11:40:50 <nslater> sbp--
11:40:55 <sbp> hehe
11:41:33 <Arnia> Documents Are Dead
11:41:33 <nslater> bah, I shouldn't have turned down those speaking invitations
11:41:46 <Arnia> nslater: you speak here already
11:41:48 <Arnia> That is enough
11:41:53 <nslater> Arnia: ur face is dead! zomg
11:42:23 * Arnia passes nslater through an endomorphism which renders him roughly equivalent to the Lurpak man
11:42:45 <sbp> ooh, oh man. what's that dude's name...
11:42:49 <sbp> Trevor... no...
11:42:51 <sbp> Billy? no...
11:42:53 <sbp> argh
11:42:55 <Arnia> # Build me up, buttercup...
11:43:02 <sbp> Douglas!
11:43:03 * nslater screams
11:43:22 <clsn> .wik Lurpak man
11:43:23 <Arnia> nslater obviously has an extreme dislike of the name Douglas
11:43:24 <phenny> "Fonejacker is a BAFTA award-winning British comedy programme broadcast on Channel 4 featuring a series of prank calls, which first appeared in May 2006." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonejacker
11:43:37 <sbp> .wik Douglas (Lurpak)
11:43:38 <nslater> Arnia: no, repressed memories of Durham bops
11:43:39 <phenny> "Penelope Anne Constance Keith, CBE, DL (born Penelope Hatfield on 2 April 1940) is an English actress well known in the United Kingdom for her television career." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penelope_Keith
11:43:42 <sbp> ...
11:44:00 <Arnia> She's the Lurpak man?
11:44:04 <Arnia> wow
11:44:27 <nslater> █▄ ███ █▄ █▄█▄█ █▄█ ▀█▀
11:44:46 <sbp> ▀█▀ ███ ███ ▀█▀ ▀█▀ ███ ███ ▀█▀
11:44:56 <nslater> ㋡
11:45:17 <d8uv> .rates
11:45:18 <phenny> d8uv: moon wanter. moOOoon wanter!
11:45:29 <d8uv> *snicker*
11:45:47 <nslater> haha
11:45:55 <nslater> damn, I should really get to work
11:45:58 * nslater -> afk
11:46:37 <nsh-> arghh
11:46:46 <nsh-> FRIENDS USELESS AND SHITEFUL
11:46:55 <sbp> nsh-: http://ohgodinternet.tumblr.com/post/43250909/facts-about-bleach
11:48:03 <clsn> nsh-: k, am I right in my observation, based on listening to that one stupid song too many times, that Finnish speakers often drop their final -n's, or else pronounce them as just nasalization of the syllable?
11:49:24 <nsh-> give example, clsn?
11:50:19 <nsh-> sbp++
11:50:29 *** danja_ (n=danny@host65-52-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
11:50:31 <nsh-> (++)
11:50:41 <sbp> (thanks happened.)
11:51:04 <clsn> Hmm... Well, istr that "niinhä" sounded more like "niihä", which is only syllable-final... I should probably listen to it Yet Again for other examples...
11:51:38 <clsn> It's also possible that my lyrics text is faulty; I wouldn't know correct Finnish from badly typoed Finnish if they were wearing signs,
11:51:40 <clsn> .
11:53:16 <nsh-> ah, in puhukieli (speaking-language), especially with urbanites (helsinki in particular) the ends of common words are often ommited
11:53:45 <nsh-> well, not just the ends, often the middle syllable too
11:53:49 <nsh-> (instead, even)
11:53:59 *** r0hit has parted #swhack ("QnllIGd1eXMK")
11:54:13 <clsn> Ah, OK. Makes sense. So it's a spoken-language colloquial dialect kinda thing.
11:54:31 <clsn> This isn't dropping *suffixes*, though, just the odd phoneme here and there, right?
11:54:44 <clsn> (dropping suffixes in Finnish is presumably a stunningly bad idea)
11:54:54 <sbp> ˚̈/\‾/\‾ <- unicode donkey, or cow, or something
11:54:56 <nsh-> "nii, meeskome sin bileeks vai ei?" ought to be "niin, mennaankome sinne bileetiin vai ei?"
11:55:10 <nsh-> (so, shall we go to that party or not?)
11:55:31 *** d8uv has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
11:55:37 <nsh-> clsn, yeah, most inflectional changes are suffixes, so the grammar of the sentence can be lost or made ambiguous by dropping the end of one word)
11:55:58 <clsn> oog, more extensive than I thought. but makes sense, and not worse than a lot of languages do.
11:56:21 <clsn> right, what little I know about Finnish includes the fact that it has 4.3 bazillion noun cases.
11:56:23 <nsh-> in second version, should have been bileeksiin, sorry
11:56:33 <nsh-> yeah, i dispair of ever knowing them all
11:57:04 *** tav (n=tav@78-86-158-143.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #swhack
11:57:22 <clsn> The one formal linguistics class I took in college was taught by a Finn. Her specialty was verbs of sufficiency in Finnish.
11:57:41 * nsh- wishes he knew what that meant
11:58:23 <nsh-> oh, right
11:59:36 <nsh-> yeah, there are lots, like ehtii (have time to), mahtuu (fit), jaksaa (have the will/energy to)
11:59:50 <clsn> The only two I remember are "tarkene" for "to be able to sufficiently withstand cold" and "viisti" for "to be bothered to", sorta.
12:00:06 * nsh- nods
12:00:09 <clsn> Right, there's a "rich lexical field" in verbs of sufficiency, as linguists like to say.
12:00:16 * nsh- smiles
12:00:23 <clsn> She put it as "to have enough energy to overcome my innate laziness"
12:01:01 <clsn> Oog, someone's going to be here in a minute, so I'll probably go idle, but I'll likely mumble more Finnish with you later.
12:02:34 * nsh- nods
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12:23:08 * sbp roffles at all the made up words
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12:34:13 <nslater> .title http://blog.vidoop.com/archives/139
12:34:16 <phenny> nslater: Email Address to URL Transformation (EAUT) specification now available! | The Vidoop Blog
12:34:17 <nslater> le sigh
12:35:03 <sbp> 1. Concatenate the unicode string "mailto:" with the email address in question.
12:35:06 <sbp> 2. DONE.
12:35:48 <nslater> but sbp, thats not very useful for identity endpoint management on a go forward basis using XRI's, XRDS and all the other Technologies Of Tomorrow
12:36:03 <sbp> whoops, sry
12:36:37 <nslater> ugh, they cant even get their terminology correct
12:37:40 <nslater> wow, this is an XRI: xri://$xrd*($v*2.0)
12:38:04 <sbp> note that one of the main XRI people is RIGHT HERE ON SWHACK by the way
12:38:06 <nslater> someone should get Larry Wall of the OASIS board
12:38:10 <sbp> so if you want to shout at him...
12:38:17 <nslater> *off
12:38:31 <nslater> sbp: point him out to me so I can prepare my defenestration tools
12:38:41 <sbp> we already had a big chat about it
12:38:52 <nslater> define "we"
12:39:28 <sbp> me and him. I can't find the discussion though
12:39:35 <sbp> hmm, maybe it was on SWIG
12:39:53 <nslater> did he convince you that XRI's *weren't* totally pointless?
12:40:10 <sbp> wow, back in 2005
12:40:23 <sbp> see for yourself: http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2005-04-20.html#T00-55-27
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12:41:16 <nslater> "people will author bad URIs, so we need to change the scheme... it'll help in the following way: [handwave]" hehe
12:41:30 <sbp> 01:12:16 <sbp> the oh man was mainly because I didn't mean to be dissin' yo stuff too blatantly in front of you
12:41:30 <sbp> 01:12:21 <GabeW> thats ok
12:42:15 <nslater> it annoys me that the XRI board is still peddling that nonsense about the permiency of URIs
12:42:38 <nslater> and that somehow, because something thats with "http://" it nessesarily has to be dereferencable
12:42:48 <nslater> *starts with
12:43:08 <nslater> "dense and opaque for persistence" oh man
12:43:39 <nslater> "* sbp whistles, walks away" hehe
12:43:58 <sbp> phew, this gets quite involved quite quickly. a lot of issues
12:44:30 <nslater> TC chair, haha
12:44:41 <sbp> 01:38:57 <sbp> so how does that link to the XML used in the authority look-up in XRIs?
12:44:41 <sbp> 01:39:04 <GabeW> cool, glad you asked
12:44:46 <sbp> - hehe, I like this bit for some reason
12:46:16 <nslater> ah yes, the old argument about the Problem With DNS
12:46:37 <nslater> reminds me of nwalsh's essay about "my monies on the DNS system outlasting yours" thing
12:46:43 <nslater> money's
12:46:53 <sbp> 01:58:19 <GabeW> I haven't had a conversation like this about XRI with anyone at this level of detail outside the TC
12:46:55 <sbp> - for wins!
12:46:59 <nslater> heh
12:47:51 <sbp> shame the chat wasn't longer really
12:47:58 <nslater> still reading
12:48:00 <sbp> got to the end of it already and there are sooo many more possible questions
12:51:20 <nslater> sbp: whats your views on XRIs?
12:52:04 <sbp> [[[
12:52:06 <sbp> The first part of this article considered over 100 HTML 4 attributes and came to the conclusion class was the only one suitable for storing machine data (i.e. data specifically inserted and intended for machine parsing.)
12:52:14 <sbp> ]]] - http://hexmen.com/blog/2008/07/microformats-dark-data-and-css-part-2/
12:52:17 <nslater> oh my
12:52:22 <sbp> nslater: same as you read at the bottom of those chatlogs
12:52:27 <nslater> what about the "data" attribute
12:52:33 <sbp> I didn't do any subsequent work chatting about or deciphering XRIs
12:52:37 <nslater> k
12:52:38 <sbp> so I don't have any further opinion
12:52:43 <nslater> not got there yet
12:53:08 <sbp> ah. summary is, some of the structural ideas that Gabe presented and that I read about were interesting; but they'd have to be very well grounded in use cases
12:53:09 <Monty> nslater: same as you asked
12:53:41 <sbp> I'm also still suspicious about yet another URC-like thing when so many have fallen flat in the past, not to mention alternative naming schemes in general; and why tag: is unacceptable etc.
12:53:55 <nslater> "unacceptable"?
12:54:07 <sbp> well, what does XRI have to offer over tag:s?
12:54:32 <nslater> also, using XRI's to avoid dependancy on DNS and HTTP seems a little odd when the primary resolution method involves converting to a series of DNS->IP lookups, HTTP GETs and then XML parsing to boot
12:54:33 <sbp> a well specified resolution chain would appear to be the answer
12:54:44 <sbp> but then one can question whether it's too over-complicated, as it appears to be, and so on
12:54:50 <sbp> endless scope for further discussion, really
12:55:00 <sbp> nslater: heh, yeah, definitely
12:55:08 <sbp> actually I'm surprised I didn't raise that point in the 2005 logs
12:55:12 <nslater> I guess, XRI feels like a problem looking for a solution
12:55:29 <sbp> yes, prima facie
12:56:17 <nslater> well, at the point I am in these chat logs, I thought you were pulling a socrates trick of getting him to realise the absurdity of the above point about avoiding (but not really) DNS and HTTP
12:56:39 <sbp> yeah, but not very well. I think I could've just said it
12:56:43 <nslater> heh
12:56:51 <sbp> actually I do that twice; I do it about the URCs "this didn't work so well in the past" thing too
12:56:57 <nslater> yeah
12:57:06 <sbp> but then I don't bother driving it home. probably I was distracted by various other things that were said and that I read
12:57:17 <sbp> reading the chatlogs back is a lot different to actually being in the conversation when it happens
12:57:25 <nslater> it always is
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12:59:06 <nslater> hmm
12:59:13 *** ragsagar (n=ragsagar@59.93.11.62) has joined #swhack
12:59:16 <nslater> is tag: a registered scheme?
12:59:32 <sbp> yeah
12:59:45 <nslater> pfft
12:59:49 <sbp> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc4151.html
13:00:01 <sbp> pfft?
13:00:10 <nslater> well, whats the point?
13:00:30 <sbp> well it was supposed to end all this nonsense about creating yet another scheme
13:00:41 <nslater> by creating another scheme? seems a little absurd
13:00:55 <sbp> ah, yes, but it delegates making a "new scheme" to your email address or domain name
13:01:09 <nslater> AtomPub abuses this, much to my annoyance, see the following example:
13:01:18 <nslater> <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/07/22/a-helluva-thing" />
13:01:21 <nslater> <id>tag:diveintomark.org,2008-07-23:/archives/20080723030709</id>
13:01:22 <nslater> - http://feeds.feedburner.com/diveintomark/all
13:01:25 <sbp> so you don't have to wait for anyone's approval etc.
13:01:31 <sbp> yeah, I know. Atom abuses tagURIs
13:01:33 <nslater> mm, perhaps
13:01:58 <sbp> mainly I figured tagURIs were useful in RDF when you couldn't be arsed to publish a namespace
13:02:02 <sbp> in XML too
13:02:11 <nslater> so, you have to use a http URI and then invent some tag URI thing for every Atom entry
13:02:25 <sbp> yeah, it's stupid
13:02:28 <nslater> well, I am bending the truth a little, you don't HAVE to, but it's certainly recomended
13:02:55 <nslater> and I appreciate that's more the fault of AtomPub, not the tag URI editors
13:03:05 <nslater> hmm
13:03:18 <nslater> couldn't be arsed to publish a namespace? what, like http://justmadethisup.lol
13:04:32 <sbp> right
13:05:29 <nslater> "Some people say class has an object-oriented use as though (X)HTML and CSS are object-oriented languages, with inheritance based on class values."
13:05:39 <nslater> and those people need to be round up and banned from the internets
13:06:02 <sbp> hehe
13:06:11 <nslater> where did you find this article?
13:06:30 <sbp> recent #swig logs. figured I'd check to see what's going on nowadays
13:06:44 <nslater> was it pasted as a joke or a serious link?
13:06:48 <sbp> guess
13:07:13 <nslater> well I dunno, I would like to think the latter, for lolz value only
13:07:20 <sbp> apparently so, yeah
13:07:25 <nslater> whaa
13:07:36 <sbp> http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2008-07-23.html#T08-56-06
13:07:36 * nslater brings up the swig logs
13:08:08 <nslater> oh wow
13:08:13 <nslater> that place is really going down hill :p
13:10:38 <sbp> the draw of technobunkum seems to get stronger and stronger
13:12:02 <sbp> it's funny that this article even has to warn against ordered class value dependence
13:12:14 <sbp> what do people think that "class" means?
13:12:35 <nslater> sigh, le ginsparg
13:12:51 <nslater> did you see the recent proposal for a data attr to be added to HTML5?
13:12:55 * nslater digs for a link
13:12:57 *** saml has quit ("leaving")
13:13:13 <sbp> nope?
13:13:13 <nslater> .title http://ejohn.org/blog/html-5-data-attributes/
13:13:15 <phenny> nslater: John Resig - HTML 5 data- Attributes
13:13:34 <nslater> still broken imho
13:13:37 <sbp> in all this time I've only thought of one decent idea for a microformat. mind going through it with me in a moment? gotta go out for about 15 mins
13:13:41 <sbp> will check that link in a bit too
13:13:42 <nslater> but it's better than overloading class ffs
13:14:02 *** kpreid has quit ()
13:14:04 <nslater> oh, well, I was just about to nip of for a break
13:14:13 <nslater> back in five?
13:14:33 *** kpreid (n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com) has joined #swhack
13:14:37 <nslater> or just brain dump whateverz
13:17:54 * Arnia is in the HTTP-should-dereference camp
13:18:14 <Arnia> The use of URIs kind of went a bit crazy
13:18:33 <Arnia> and now we need the hell that is Follow-your-nose
13:19:35 * Arnia loves how they've eliminated namespaces and now they have to reintroduce them :p
13:19:53 <Arnia> Just with a more fragile specification, and probably more complex parser
13:20:01 <Arnia> (it having to special-case the data- prefix)
13:20:17 <nslater> sbp: ??
13:20:50 <nslater> Arnia: yeah, heh
13:21:04 <Arnia> "The addition of this prefix completely routes around both issues (including any extra markup for validation or needing to be valid XHTML) with this effective addition."
13:21:33 <Arnia> WHY is my big question
13:21:41 <Arnia> Why not just use XHTML and be done with it
13:21:49 <nslater> because xml has failed on the web
13:22:07 <Arnia> Well HTML 5 is hardly HTML :p
13:22:19 <nslater> oh, you wont find me advocating html5 either
13:22:45 <Arnia> so I don't accept that argument. XML has at least got adoption outside of the core rabble-rousers
13:23:16 <nslater> but xhtml has failed, it doesnt work
13:23:18 <Arnia> The only thing I'd quite like is for XML Infoset to be destroyed
13:23:22 <nslater> I don't see the problem with HTML 4.01
13:23:30 <Arnia> nslater: who is to say that HTML 5 will?
13:23:40 <Arnia> And define 'failed' for XHTML?
13:23:45 <nslater> hmm? who is to say that HTML 5 will fail?
13:23:46 * Arnia has lots of places he uses it
13:23:57 <Arnia> nslater: who is to say that it won't
13:24:34 <Arnia> nslater: you can't use a 'Y is better because X failed' unless Y has succeeded and Y addresses the causes of X's failure
13:24:44 <chandler> using XHTML is easy, provided you can write off the most popular browser on the internet or constantly test to make sure that it's parsing your XHTML-as-tag-soup the way you intended. Granted, that's not much worse than any of the other aspects of trying to support IE
13:25:15 <nslater> Arnia: one second
13:25:15 <Arnia> And the main cause of X's failure is browsers, which unless HTML 5 mandates the One True Browser, isn't going to change
13:25:34 <Arnia> chandler: I never said I used it for serving things to people
13:25:51 <chandler> then what would you use it for?
13:26:08 <Arnia> serving things to people remotely in the open I mean
13:26:09 <nslater> .title http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/07/21/dive.html
13:26:10 <phenny> nslater: XML.com: XML on the Web Has Failed
13:26:14 <nslater> .title http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experiment
13:26:15 <phenny> nslater: Thought experiment [dive into mark]
13:26:17 <nslater> http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml
13:26:17 <Arnia> I use it sometimes as a document format
13:26:19 <nslater> etc etc etc
13:26:53 <Arnia> and it is on the Web even if it isn't being served over HTTP to web browsers btw
13:26:59 <Arnia> So that argument is bullshit
13:27:09 <nslater> maybe, but the largest use case of XHTML is in the browser
13:27:10 <Arnia> Hasty generalisation
13:27:18 <Arnia> nslater: largest according to whom
13:27:19 <nslater> coming up with some obscure use case where it works doesn't chaneg that
13:27:26 <chandler> s'ok, XML is bullshit too, so any arguments about it are unlikely to exceed the quality of the subject material
13:27:27 * Arnia hits nslater for over-eager ME-FIRST
13:27:41 <Arnia> chandler: XML is better than HTML5
13:27:46 <Arnia> in my mind at least
13:27:59 <nslater> Arnia: are you arguing that the non-browser web is larger than the browser-web?
13:28:14 <Arnia> there isn't a single decent document format in existence so...
13:28:21 <chandler> Arnia: I don't disagree, but I was making the statement in a vacuum
13:28:32 * Arnia gesticulates wildly around at the world
13:28:34 <Arnia> nslater: YES
13:28:39 <nslater> XHTML served up as XML a) doesnt work in the most popular browser and b) uses draconian error handling in the remaining - so fail on both counts
13:28:52 <chandler> for actually writing documents, I actually find texinfo to be the least objectionable system out there, followed by LaTeX
13:28:57 <nslater> Arnia: can you back that up? :/
13:29:07 <Arnia> nslater: we've had this discussion before
13:29:15 <nslater> we've had many discussions before :)
13:29:23 <nslater> I can't remember this one though
13:29:25 <Arnia> The Web is anything which may be given a URI
13:29:31 <nslater> sure, sure
13:29:37 <Arnia> any file on your computer may be given a URI
13:29:41 <nslater> sure
13:29:52 <nslater> what is XHTML primarily designed for? browsers, right?
13:29:53 <Arnia> any email
13:29:57 <nslater> or rather, used by
13:30:01 <nslater> might be more acurate
13:30:28 <Arnia> nslater: this is where you have an iffyness. You can't say 'the greatest use-case' because use-cases are even more subjective than normal
13:30:41 <Arnia> nslater: what your greatest use-case is, is not the same as mine
13:31:03 <nslater> I'm not talking about MINE per se, I'm talking about the most common, which is viewing XHTML in the browser
13:31:03 <Arnia> and a system can succeed without being popular
13:31:13 <chandler> right, that's why I use Common Lisp :-)
13:31:26 <chandler> we've already met the successor to HTML4, and it's neither HTML5 nor XHTML
13:31:28 <Arnia> (if it fulfils a given person's usecase well enough it has succeeded to them)
13:31:30 <nslater> and for the most common use case, XHTML fails
13:31:32 <chandler> it's Flash, and everyone loves to gripe about it
13:31:44 <Arnia> nslater: yes... I just said that was irrelevant
13:31:48 <nslater> Flash!? I hope you're trollin' :p
13:31:54 <nslater> Arnia: erm...
13:31:58 <chandler> I wish I were...
13:32:06 <Arnia> nslater: Common is irrelevant
13:32:14 <nslater> Arnia: how is the common utility of a technology irrelevant?
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13:32:25 <nslater> that's a pretty extreem position to take
13:32:30 <Arnia> nslater: because everyone's needs are different.
13:32:53 <Arnia> nslater: a technology cannot be judged as successful or not by a ballot
13:32:54 <Monty> yeah, but yet
13:32:59 <chandler> I'm using "Flash" here as a stand-in for "non-markup-language content whose ``standard'' is defined by a single company"
13:33:16 <nslater> I realise this, but you can't discount the failings of a technology because there are some cases where it useful
13:33:21 <Arnia> chandler: sometimes I wish for more of those... beats this interminable design by committee
13:33:41 <Arnia> nslater: you have yet to give an objective failing of the technology itself
13:33:45 <Arnia> Please provide one
13:33:56 <nslater> define "objective"
13:34:06 <Arnia> Independent of observer
13:34:17 <nslater> well no, I can't give you one
13:34:24 <chandler> Arnia: yeah, well, everyone wants to use it as a control point to push their authoring software, so it's unlikely that any of those will ever be good technology even if they do what people actually want better than HTML5
13:34:51 <Arnia> Good technology is an oxymoron
13:35:13 <nslater> I never said that XHTML fails independant of observer, my argument all along has been that XHTML has failed for it's largest use case, namely, humans browsing the web with documents authored with XHTML
13:35:30 <Arnia> nslater: my point is that complaining about XHTML being bad because it doesn't work in IE is like complaining about the blacks because of the Ku Klux Klan
13:35:39 <nslater> not at all
13:35:46 <Arnia> Mistargetted abuse
13:36:10 <nslater> you're doing the whole perfect world thing... the fact of the matter is that deploying XHTML on the web as it stands today doesn't work
13:36:22 <Arnia> No, it doesn't work for the browser web
13:36:31 <Arnia> I never debated that
13:36:34 <nslater> pragmatically, therefor, XHTML fails on the (browser) web
13:36:45 <Arnia> I was debating the use of the term 'fails'
13:36:56 <nslater> 14:36 < Arnia> No, it doesn't work for the browser web
13:37:01 <Arnia> It is non-value-neutral and implies that XHTML is a bad technology in and of itself
13:37:03 <nslater> ^^ so we are in agreement? (confused)
13:37:18 <Arnia> This is fuel for arguments like those for HTML5 which then go about reinventing XML and RDF badly
13:37:34 <nslater> so your issue is with my careless use of english? :)
13:37:43 <Arnia> Careless rhetoric
13:37:58 <Arnia> The English was fine, it was the rhetoric which caused me concern
13:39:22 <nslater> well, I would argue that my choice of words is dependant on the forum and context I use them in, if I was writing a white paper or preenting a paper I would have chosen more precise wording, IRC is more of a place for light conversation than anything else and "fail" is meant to be humorous in most instances
13:39:23 <chandler> nslater: deploying XHTML works fine; I do it all the time
13:39:28 <sbp> back, reading mighty backscroll...
13:39:42 <chandler> you need to get over the idea that you can only deploy something to a conforming user agent
13:39:54 <nslater> chandler: do you serve it with the correct media type?
13:39:55 <chandler> no such beast exists, so you might as well let the nonconforming browsers parse your content as tag soup
13:39:58 <nslater> chandler: what do you do with IE?
13:39:59 <chandler> no :-)
13:40:04 <sbp> data-blah: oh. how. splendid
13:40:11 <chandler> hack until it works, same as any other web author
13:40:12 <nslater> so, essentially you are serving tag soup HTML? :)
13:40:15 <chandler> IE doesn't conform to CSS either
13:40:16 <chandler> of course
13:40:26 <nslater> well, hardly "XHTML" then :)
13:40:35 <Arnia> nslater: but it IS XHTML
13:40:46 <nslater> not if you serve it with the incorrect media type it aint
13:40:54 <chandler> the content-type isn't set in the document
13:40:58 <nslater> why opt to serve tag soup HTML instead of validating HTML 4.01?
13:41:05 <Arnia> In the same way that just because I don't understand all of Geordie, I can still recognise someone from Newcastle as speaking English
13:41:10 <nslater> chandler: but you presumably set it at the HTTP level
13:41:17 <Arnia> A Geordie can do more of course, but that doesn't stop me doing enough
13:41:24 <chandler> right, but that doesn't change the fact that the document is XHTML
13:41:33 <nslater> Arnia: we're talking about the semantics of HTTP which are pretty clear, not spoken english
13:41:37 <chandler> it just changes how I'm telling the browser to interpret it. anyway, splitting hairs now
13:41:49 <chandler> hah. HTTP semantics clear. I hope *you're* joking now :-)
13:41:54 <Arnia> nslater: Sorites
13:41:57 <nslater> hah
13:42:03 <Arnia> No such thing as a clear classification system
13:42:19 <chandler> nslater: I serve tag soup XHTML because producing XHTML is billions of times easier than producing HTML
13:42:24 <nslater> chandler: why do you chose to brokenly serve xhtml? does it afford you anything over html 4.01?
13:42:30 <MacTed> wait. so it's XHTML's fault that IE can't render it right?
13:42:31 <nslater> oh
13:42:40 <nslater> MacTed: no, it goes deeper than that
13:42:45 <Arnia> nslater: uh, yes
13:42:49 <MacTed> speaking of mistargeted abuse...
13:42:52 <nslater> MacTed: see http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experiment
13:42:56 <Arnia> XHTML allows me to use namespaces, which sensible systems can use
13:42:59 <chandler> making my documents conform is pointless. as long as the browser renders it correctly, it works
13:43:10 <nslater> XHTML demands draconian error handling, which is wildely inapropriate imho
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13:43:22 <MacTed> chandler - depends on your definition of "works"
13:43:35 <Arnia> MacTed: doesn't everything?
13:43:40 * nslater chuckles
13:43:47 <MacTed> chandler - if all you want is a rendered page, then, OK ... but if you want some of the other benefits XHTML can provide over HTML, there's good reason to make it conform
13:43:50 * xover puts #swhack on ignore…
13:43:51 <phenny> xover: 09:26Z <sbp> tell xover wow, did you see SHK 19.0426 Top 10 Books on Shakespeare From the 90s? I'm not tempted by a single book on that list... moreover I think it's a good example of what we were talking about the other day... :-)
13:43:52 <chandler> "requires minimal maintenence over time". there's no guarantee that a validating HTML 4.01 document is always going to be rendered the way I expect, either
13:44:18 <nslater> chandler: why is xhtml easier to construct than html?
13:44:27 <sbp> xover: see also my BCC'd reply
13:44:44 <chandler> oops, gotta run, will resume discussion later
13:44:44 <Monty> XHTML and it delegates making a well enough :)
13:44:54 <Arnia> nslater: does it matter if it is easier for him?
13:45:01 <Arnia> He has a perfect reason to use XHTML
13:45:08 <nslater> actually, I was just curious :)
13:45:12 * sbp wonders what bj0ern thinks of all this
13:45:14 <nslater> wondering what his setup is
13:45:14 <bj0ern> you have xaml code like if we can get my data is way off obviously, negative
13:45:41 <Arnia> In the end, Content-Type headers are a fiction at the best of times.
13:45:59 <Arnia> Actually that's something I consider to be incredibly brittle about the way the Web is defined
13:46:12 <Arnia> but it is a problem with how we think about information in a wider sense
13:46:25 <nslater> that sounds like a flimsy argument to justfy ignoring them
13:46:31 <Arnia> Content-Type is just the irritating itch of the condition
13:46:35 <sbp> .ety comport
13:46:36 <phenny> "c.1385, from M.Fr. comporter 'endure, behave,' from L. comportare 'to bring together,' from com- 'together' + portare 'to carry' (see port (1))." - http://etymonline.com/?term=comport
13:46:56 <xover> That's isane. Feminists, LGBT activists, Communists, … Not a one of them were even litcrit or theatre, much less bio, books.
13:46:59 <Arnia> nslater: we trust information to comply to normative designs
13:47:10 <sbp> xover: see also my reply... :-)
13:47:22 <Arnia> nslater: why?
13:47:26 <nslater> I mean, a lot of the technologies the web is built on are pretty broken, may as well just serve up Word documents with HTTP 1 then?
13:47:34 <Arnia> Strawman
13:47:55 <nslater> not really, I read your argument as "it's a bit broken, so there's no harm in ignoring it"
13:48:08 <Arnia> Content-type is broken because it rigidly couples interpreters to documents
13:48:18 <nslater> interpreters? how?
13:48:24 <Arnia> nslater: you misread in your eagerness to find something to poke at
13:48:32 <nslater> hmm?
13:48:36 <Arnia> A browser is an interpreter
13:48:49 <nslater> but how are media types linked to specific interpreters?
13:49:21 <Arnia> Any automata which accept the same language are, from the perspective of the standard, the same
13:49:35 <nslater> hmm, interesting idea
13:49:47 <Arnia> Not really... bog standard idea of abstraction
13:49:53 <nslater> so, if you could do away with media types, what would you replace it with?
13:49:56 <Arnia> In standards it is called 'a conforming agent'
13:50:02 <sbp> badgers
13:50:06 <nslater> IN SPACE
13:50:15 <sbp> bj0ern: ...IN A ROBOT
13:50:17 <bj0ern> yeah, but i haven't noticed then was that directx does not suck. i am clearly #1 for that is not a sun
13:50:19 <Arnia> nslater: systems which don't just gibber when fed something they're not familiar with
13:50:34 <Arnia> nslater: fault tolerant systems which extract as much information as possible
13:50:45 <sbp> or "Partial Understanding" as timbl calls it
13:50:53 <sbp> .g "Partial Understanding" site:w3.org
13:50:54 <phenny> sbp: http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-webarch-extlang
13:50:54 <nslater> data extraction isnt always what you want, data presentation is a different kettle of fish
13:51:16 <Arnia> nslater: not really. We couple too tightly there as well
13:51:19 <nslater> are you suggesting a user agent that can "guess" how to display any random document?
13:51:29 <Arnia> As I said before "It is information, stupid"
13:51:34 <Arnia> nslater: actually, yes
13:51:38 <nslater> o_O
13:51:40 <Arnia> One of the little things I'm working on
13:51:42 <Arnia> shh
13:51:46 * nslater smiles
13:52:04 <nslater> seems pretty ambitious
13:52:05 <Arnia> sbp: didn't know timbl had written a note on the subject. Will read it later
13:52:12 <sbp> yup, and a design issue I think
13:52:18 <sbp> nslater: alright, so this microformat
13:52:18 <Arnia> nslater: uh, if there is anything I lack it isn't ambition :p
13:52:24 <sbp> often I write papers in HTML
13:52:25 <nslater> hehe
13:52:31 <nslater> sbp: academic papers?
13:52:33 <sbp> and then use CSS to format them for printing. so far so good
13:52:33 <sbp> yeah
13:52:43 <nslater> k
13:52:45 <sbp> now, I'll often have ancilliary files to the main document
13:52:52 <sbp> so I might have some data output that I want to include
13:53:03 <sbp> paper.html will need to include data.txt then
13:53:10 <sbp> data.txt is often produced by a Makefile
13:53:18 <sbp> so when I update data.txt, I want to automatically update paper.html
13:53:20 <sbp> with me so far?
13:53:20 <nslater> line bases text data I presume
13:53:24 <nslater> based
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13:53:29 <sbp> yeah, something that looks alright in a <pre>
13:53:36 <nslater> that was my thinking, cool
13:53:45 <Arnia> XInclude in a microformat?
13:53:49 * Arnia blinks
13:53:50 <sbp> exactly
13:54:03 <nslater> but why microformat?
13:54:04 <sbp> so what I normally do is provide a hint in one of the two following ways:
13:54:06 <Arnia> add a dependency management microformat too
13:54:06 <sbp> 1)
13:54:12 <sbp> <blockquote cite="data.txt">
13:54:14 <sbp> <pre>
13:54:14 <sbp> ...
13:54:15 <sbp> </pre>
13:54:17 <sbp> </blockquote>
13:54:19 <sbp> 2)
13:54:24 <sbp> <pre title="Source: data.txt">
13:54:26 <sbp> </pre>
13:54:42 <nslater> why not use xhtml and xsltproc/xmlint or some shizzle?
13:54:55 <sbp> because I'm not using xhtml, I'm using "HTML 5"
13:55:04 <nslater> why, xhtml has a lot of great uses!
13:55:05 <sbp> or HTML 4.01, or whatever
13:55:11 * nslater grins
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13:55:27 * sbp waits for luls to end... this is serious business!
13:55:30 <sbp> microformats, dude!
13:55:30 <nslater> sorry
13:55:36 <sbp> hehe. alright
13:55:42 <nslater> .. I couldn't resist (genuinely) contradicting my self
13:55:46 <sbp> so I was thinking about submitting this system to the microformats group
13:55:50 * Arnia downmarks nslater for irreverence, poor rhetorical style and a jeering/mocking tone
13:55:53 <sbp> because. well
13:55:56 <Arnia> Five minors so far
13:55:57 <nslater> owe man
13:56:04 <nslater> awe
13:56:07 <Arnia> Please demonstrate a U-turn
13:56:19 <nslater> sbp: why do this in the browser? why would it not be done as a pre-processing step?
13:56:35 <sbp> "I will not resign as Prime Minister before my term is over."
13:56:52 <sbp> "I am resigning tomorrow, with one year of my term still to serve. (You've forgotten I said I wouldn't do that, right?)"
13:57:02 <sbp> nslater: browser?!
13:57:26 <sbp> the actual process of inclusion has nothing to do with the browser
13:57:26 <nslater> sbp: well, what are you intending to consume your html?
13:57:32 <sbp> a python script
13:57:35 <nslater> oh
13:57:38 <sbp> to do the inclusion process
13:57:42 <sbp> and then a printer to print the paper
13:57:45 <nslater> so....
13:57:49 <sbp> and if I upload the paper to the web, a browser to read the paper
13:57:54 <nslater> ...
13:58:05 <nslater> ... so, by the time it hits to web, the process is complete
13:58:10 <nslater> so no need for a microformat
13:58:15 <nslater> *the
13:58:20 * Arnia points out that the browser is not really a part of the definition of the web
13:58:21 <nslater> DAMN FUCK STUPID FINGERS
13:58:21 <sbp> ah, but the data is still useful iff the files have been uploaded with the paper
13:58:28 <Arnia> At least not these browsers
13:58:31 <sbp> also, why weed information out if it's not private?
13:58:43 <Arnia> The idea of a user agent is, but that can be a human pecking on telnet :p
13:58:53 <sbp> a third way of doing it would be:
13:58:53 <nslater> well, why publicly standardise something that's private?
13:59:09 <Arnia> nslater: ah, I ask that about HTML5 all the time
13:59:18 <sbp> ... also available as a single <a href="data.txt">file</a>:</p>
13:59:19 <sbp> <pre>
13:59:20 <sbp> ...
13:59:21 <sbp> </pre>
13:59:29 <sbp> oh, but with an @class on the <a> of course
13:59:35 <nslater> hmm
13:59:48 <sbp> I already intimated why I would like this standardised
13:59:48 <nslater> I would do it like this fwiw:
13:59:51 <Arnia> E_RAPIDLY_APPROACHING_ERDF
14:00:01 <nslater> <pre href="data.txt"/>
14:00:17 <sbp> okay, but that's not microformats compatible
14:00:21 <nslater> why?
14:00:33 <sbp> because pre doesn't have an @href attribute
14:00:38 <sbp> the point is that this is an obvious and interesting microformat, right?
14:00:47 <Arnia> also, what is the meaning of the href
14:00:49 <sbp> so it would be interesting to see how it progresses through the microformats registration process
14:01:08 * Arnia thinks it ridiculous, but needs must right now
14:01:10 <nslater> Arnia: my understanding is that this is how TimBL intended the href to be originally used
14:01:23 <sbp> needs must?
14:01:27 <nslater> and I can site that if I could be arsed
14:01:29 <nslater> cite
14:01:30 <nslater> fuck
14:01:36 <Arnia> Doesn't mean I won't stop hitting things until they look more like a decent system
14:01:47 <Arnia> nslater: yes, but my point was that the href has little meaning
14:01:51 <Arnia> It could clash
14:02:03 <Arnia> Hence the needs must bit, because we have a brittle approach to computing right now
14:02:05 <nslater> hypertext reference, mang
14:02:17 <Arnia> Which means things need disambiguation in circumstances of clash
14:02:23 <sbp> there are many kinds of reference. see XLink arc types
14:02:25 <Tene> clsn: http://blog.plover.com/lang/finnpar.html and http://blog.plover.com/lang/finnpar-2.html
14:02:30 <Arnia> (explicit disambiguation I mean)
14:02:39 <sbp> this is why we have @src as well as @href
14:02:48 <sbp> surely @src would make more sense in this context, in fact
14:02:52 <sbp> <pre src="data.txt">
14:02:52 <sbp> ...
14:02:54 <sbp> </pre>
14:02:54 <Arnia> nslater: Hypertext reference has little meaning
14:02:59 <nslater> argh
14:03:03 * nslater digs for citations
14:03:04 <sbp> though @src shouldn't be duplicated by inner content
14:03:50 <nsh-> ouy6fn b9678df9 6frbn0 67f 9ytuf uioyf [90y] -0y9t8v7954asc46234562243!rxcvlpuig 9p-8 -0 i[uopihy[ o08 y[-08 y/(+*(g/8gh0=8h.0ihg[oug piyf7r d6795de 9 6845dslgydtsi6er4aryweahywE4TQhSNHDFZ
14:03:53 <Arnia> nslater: I'm merely quoting the complaints of the network information theorists
14:03:57 <sbp> [[[
14:03:58 <sbp> #
14:03:58 <sbp> Pete Forde (July 13, 2008 at 2:44 am)
14:03:58 <sbp> *rubs nipples*
14:04:03 <sbp> ]]] - http://ejohn.org/blog/html-5-data-attributes/
14:04:19 <nslater> sweet
14:04:23 <Arnia> nslater: that href lacks sufficient meaning for describing patterns of knowledge
14:04:38 <nslater> sbp: I don't think you would get very far with your uf
14:04:46 <nslater> "Remember, we're paving the cowpaths (http://ifindkarma.typepad.com/relax/2004/12/microformats.html)- before you do that you have to find the cowpaths."
14:04:49 * nslater vomits
14:04:52 <Arnia> Which imposes a limit on automated analysis techniques at this time
14:05:16 <sbp> well I use this system all the time
14:05:18 <Arnia> It is exactly like replacing all constructions in English with the genitive
14:05:29 <nslater> sbp: I don't think a single use case would count
14:05:42 <sbp> ah, but then how else would I find an approach which doesn't step on other people's toes?
14:05:50 * nsh- sics analogy police on Arnia
14:05:52 <nslater> "Your examples should be a collection of real world sites and pages which are publishing the kind of data you wish to structure with a microformat. From those pages and sites, you should extract markup examples and the schemas implied therein, and provide analysis.
14:05:52 <Arnia> So that we could only speak like: My document's dog's walking's in's the field
14:06:03 <Arnia> nsh-: it is a pretty close analogy
14:06:27 <Arnia> nsh-: the genitive captures unspecified relationships
14:06:27 <sbp> in practice, I see very few microformats that are developed that way
14:06:33 <nslater> sbp: if actually do this a lot, I would just use xmlproc
14:06:43 <sbp> how can you use xmlproc with HTML 5?
14:06:51 <nslater> well, I wouldnt be using the html5 failboat
14:07:03 <sbp> so why are you applying that comment to a system which does?
14:07:21 <nslater> because in my comment was the implicit suggesttion that you shouldnt!
14:07:27 <nsh-> (Discl: Arnia, not even going to bother trying to work out what you all're harping on about)
14:07:30 *** danieljohnlewis (n=danieljo@82-46-89-37.cable.ubr10.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #swhack
14:07:30 <nslater> but you could always convert to xhtml and back again
14:07:40 <nslater> also, I think xmlproc has an html parser in it
14:08:03 <sbp> I don't think you can round trip convert HTML 5 <-> XHTML 5
14:08:28 <nslater> hmm
14:08:29 <nsh-> this is one of those situations that arise quite often where i am 100% confident that there's no point at all paying heed to how people are approaching a problem because they are inevitably doing it completely wrong
14:08:30 <sbp> at any rate, you'd still need to have some markup in the HTML 5 to indicate the included file
14:08:35 <nslater> man xmllint shoes me it has an html parser
14:08:37 <sbp> so, double fail
14:08:41 <nslater> I think you could do xinclude with that
14:09:07 <nslater> (note: I am now giving up all hope of correcting such things as "shoes" for the day)
14:09:28 <sbp> with what?
14:09:34 <nslater> hmm?
14:09:53 <sbp> xinclude. you're still not addressing my points:
14:10:15 <sbp> 1) I am using HTML 5 because it's the ubermensch; the chosen race of the new species of markup languages on the web
14:10:22 <MoiraA> hello,
14:10:23 <nslater> fail
14:10:27 <sbp> 2) I wish to hint in the HTML 5 a file to include
14:10:30 <MoiraA> sorry to interrupt you sbp
14:10:34 <sbp> hey MoiraA
14:10:45 <MoiraA> do carry on :)
14:10:46 <nslater> sbp: please provide me with a sample document and data file
14:10:49 <sbp> 3) I wish not to tread on other peoples' toes with respect to alternative microformats and so on
14:11:00 <sbp> well, I've just shown you three possible ways of doing it
14:11:10 <nslater> can you provide samples?
14:11:17 <sbp> I guess?
14:11:19 <sbp> hang on
14:11:23 <nslater> okay, nm
14:11:23 <Arnia> why be needing plz?
14:11:53 <Arnia> Concepts, not concretes, intuitions, not just ideas
14:12:19 * Arnia deletes the extensional world from under nslater to force him to think more flexibly
14:12:45 *** danja has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:13:36 <Arnia> In my case, I'm deleting external reality in a few minutes with a period of that thing some call 'sleep
14:13:39 <Arnia> ;
14:13:42 <Arnia> grr '
14:13:51 <nslater> bai
14:13:52 <Arnia> yes, sleep; grr
14:14:03 <Arnia> I'm not leaving yet
14:14:05 <Arnia> I'm waiting
14:14:08 <nslater> for?
14:14:14 <Arnia> the answer
14:14:21 <nslater> to what?
14:14:28 <Arnia> voodoo
14:15:18 <jsled> sbp: clearly, you need to render data.txt to an image, then use <img src="data.png"> (or better, "data.jpg" for Maximum Text Fuzziness™!). There's no need to invent new stuff OMG>
14:15:34 * Arnia sighs and realises that only someone permanently scarred at a young age by the image of Bowie in skin tight leggings would get the reference enough to complete the joke
14:15:58 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "HTML 5 Academic Paper Example (Approach 1)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64093
14:16:07 <nslater> sbp: or use a real document markup language like docbook
14:16:33 <Arnia> Ooh, is (X)HTML imaginary being now?
14:16:35 <lisppaste2> sbp annotated #64093 with "HTML 5 Academic Paper Example (Approach 2)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64093#1
14:16:44 <nslater> Arnia: yup, figment of your imagination
14:16:48 <Arnia> good
14:16:56 <Arnia> that way I can define it how I damn well please
14:17:18 <Arnia> and I define HTML 4 out of existence along with HTML 5 for shits and/or giggles
14:17:31 <lisppaste2> sbp annotated #64093 with "HTML 5 Academic Paper Example (Approach 3)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64093#2
14:17:32 <nslater> xinclude doesnt work btw
14:18:04 <nslater> sbp: I don't like method three at all
14:18:07 <lisppaste2> sbp annotated #64093 with "(note)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64093#3
14:18:21 <lisppaste2> sbp annotated #64093 with "script.py" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64093#4
14:18:28 <sbp> nslater: there, done
14:18:44 <nslater> hahaha
14:18:45 <sbp> jsled: hmm, good idea
14:18:49 <nslater> ... I know how the uf guys would do it
14:18:59 <nslater> <abbr title="data.txt"/>
14:19:07 <nslater> <abbr class="include" title="data.txt"/>
14:19:33 <nslater> because, in essencem, the abbr element is a stand in for the real data
14:19:42 <nslater> <abbr class="include" title="data.txt">mah data</abbr>
14:20:15 *** danja__ (n=danny@host69-203-dynamic.33-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #swhack
14:20:25 <Arnia> <a class="-cite-SourceCode" href="script.py>space badger survey script</a>
14:20:34 <nslater> hmm
14:20:47 <nslater> actually... in seriousnes (srs bsns tiem) how about:
14:20:56 <Arnia> Plus the missing "
14:21:31 <nslater> <a class="inline" href="data.txt">result data</a>
14:21:51 <sbp> er, that's approach 3
14:21:56 <nslater> hmm!
14:21:57 * Arnia wonders why the µformats crowd don't just use ERDF
14:21:59 <sbp> which is the one you "didn't like"
14:22:05 <nslater> hmm...
14:22:07 <Arnia> At least ERDF style names
14:22:08 <sbp> though there's no alternative for it; it serves a specific purpose
14:22:16 <nslater> oh...
14:22:17 <Monty> apparently so, yeah got to brokenly serve it delegates making the road and banned from com- 'together' + portare 'to carry' (see port (1))." - HTML 4.01, or rather, used to poke at http://paste.lisp.org/display/64093#1
14:22:17 <sbp> (which is to give people a hyperlink to download the source easily)
14:22:21 <nslater> erm?
14:22:36 <nslater> nah, there is a slightly difference
14:22:41 <sbp> and the problem with 1) is that the file might not be present
14:22:43 <sbp> hence 2)
14:22:47 <nslater> I would intend for the whole <a> element and it's children to be replaced inline
14:22:51 <sbp> so they each three have their specific utilities
14:23:08 <sbp> ...what?
14:23:12 <sbp> that wo