00:00:10 <nslater> 1/2 done
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00:01:08 <chandler> argh
00:02:19 <nslater> right, fuck it... 4/6 done... cba with the rest :)
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00:04:12 <nslater> hey j0shu
00:04:12 <j0shu> "where is that when one learns zen one loses his fear of death. each time nan-in told him the problem: "hear the sound of one hand." the pupil remained three years but could not very well kill the tea-master, so he gave up the idea. a merchant bearing fifty rolls of cotton goods on his face. he patted the wrestler's shoulder. "now nothing can disturb you," he said. "you are those huge waves sweeping everything before you." the same day o-nami entered the wres
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00:04:36 <chandler> uking bugs
00:04:40 <chandler> howdy k0an
00:04:40 <k0an> after this, soyen never slept again in the land.
00:04:57 <nslater> man, j0shu reads like surealist harold pinter
00:04:57 <j0shu> a student once asked him: "have you ever consider that?" "i never drink!" exclaimed unsho in anger. "then if i am home. have you something for me to eat?" "i have studied the tendai school used to study zen in china
00:05:16 <chandler> j0shu is much more verbose than k0an
00:05:16 <k0an> after gessen had these reasons for desiring money: a ravaging famine often visited his province. the rich man asked sengai to thank him for his pupils: living in a silk merchant live in a small temple in a temple.
00:05:16 <j0shu> the dissipations of the customary four
00:05:37 <nslater> chandler: yeah, i used 10 as the count variable
00:05:38 <chandler> what size parameter are you using?
00:05:39 <chandler> ah
00:05:56 <nslater> j0shu!
00:05:57 <j0shu> come back in and have not yet seen my whole body. take the robe and bowl
00:06:04 <nslater> j0shu: kinkeh
00:06:04 <j0shu> i know that much. if that is not far from buddhahood." when one goes to obaku temple in a futile endeavour to support herself and some of it she told to a servant: "fix those lamps." the second pupil was with him who had been with his pupils together. kasan confessed that he was expelled and shunkai was released from the temple. "i may have made the army men angry, as they were used with candles inside. a blind man
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00:06:40 <nslater> hmm... wonder how this affects it
00:06:42 *** j0shu (n=j0shu@bytesexual.org) has joined #swhack
00:06:45 <nslater> hey j0shu
00:06:46 <j0shu> the young doctor asked him to a disciple
00:06:51 <nslater> j0shu: orly?
00:06:51 <j0shu> went directly to ekido. knowing that he possessed in the world?" the master replied: "the head of a hero and the teaching made its way in its own particular shrine
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00:07:30 <nslater> j0shu: tell me moar about zen
00:07:30 <j0shu> then glance up at him with a large pot belly. after the introduction
00:07:38 <nslater> j0shu: oooookay
00:07:39 <j0shu> "i don't mean to do about this?" "whatever punishment the mistress wishes will be worse." he nodded and we would have been it, but worse was going to piss but instead white stuff shot out. it was really intense and pleasurable that i became frightened by the hair
00:07:53 <nslater> heh
00:08:11 <nslater> j0shu: should i try that while meditating?
00:08:11 <j0shu> i tried to fuck her without the car and the judge getting a blow-job from andy. all he could tell she was naked as a rock muscle and i have one thing to have me cum inside her for what seemed like hours, she eventually got use to the frilly sheets and decor of his erect cock, threw open the doors, and ran his super fat tongue up the boy's sweet aromatic odor of a hell raiser
00:08:25 <chandler> k0an: a little more verbose now?
00:08:25 <k0an> kame smashed it to him. but i want to know why. but if you understand that much, finished mokusen, you are no longer a wrestler who is rough and mean to me.
00:08:32 <chandler> k0an: kk
00:08:32 <k0an> you ought to, replied uzemu.
00:08:42 <nslater> "ran his super fat tongue up the boy's sweet aromatic odor of a hell raiser"
00:09:17 <nslater> j0shu: is "hell raiser" a euphamism?
00:09:17 <j0shu> he knew that once i got on top of the hotel entrance. i looked around and walked over to the pool. when mark opened the gate
00:09:39 <nslater> j0shu: k
00:09:39 <j0shu> i had girlfriends that i had learned long ago, even before we got into bed. i expected him to service their every diabolical sexual urges. his mind remembered the time as his tongue reached out and were worried for days. she made me shoplift a pregnancy test from the way she would come and seek me out and she would suck me. we had sex for the first one was over
00:09:42 *** j0shu has quit (Remote closed the connection)
00:10:27 <chandler> k0an: more words of wisdom?
00:10:27 <k0an> his pupils even at such a filthy mind, his work is done. how can i show you what i can let you remain as a way of collecting preaching material.
00:10:56 <chandler> k0an: nslater's the one with the filthy mind
00:10:56 <k0an> her poetical genius and alluring beauty were such that at seventeen she was quite young. later, after this took place, he was also a master of engaku in kamakura he required larger quarters, since those in which he would start to talk yamaoka would stop this lecture business. shut yourself up in a body.
00:11:00 <nslater> right... enough internets... im off to watch the might boosh
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00:11:24 <nslater> j0shu: parting shot pls
00:11:24 <j0shu> crossing the room, never looking at the bare, totally shaved lips as they were. odds were lisa would wake up and down on a lounge chair by the thought of spitting my husband's wonderful fucking of me when he stopped for a while but that did not go as far up to either side of her bowels
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00:11:42 <nslater> wat
00:11:45 <nslater> "bowels"
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00:41:04 <Arnia> nslater: are you in swig?
01:21:53 <nslater> Arnia: no, why?
01:22:13 <nslater> I should be in BED :p
01:24:00 <Arnia> nslater: oh the logs will make fun reading
01:24:32 <Arnia> From now back to about 0050
01:24:55 <nslater> okay... cool - well, im just watching my mighty boosh dvd :) will read when i'm done
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02:40:41 <nslater> Arnia: heh heh
02:41:27 <Arnia> It is very funny
02:41:31 <Arnia> I'm enjoying myself
02:42:49 <nslater> im confused, are the logs 1 hour forward of UTC?
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02:42:56 <nslater> UCT even
02:43:42 <Arnia> nslater: one hour ahead of BST atm
02:43:46 <nslater> right
02:44:20 <nslater> this took me back "tommorris is not convinced that it is within the remit of RDF to be a 100% mapping of natural language"
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06:20:22 <aspect> .ety gather
06:20:23 <phenny> "O.E. gadrian, gædrian 'to gather, collect, store up,' related to gæd 'fellowship,' and god 'good,' from P.Gmc. *gadurojan 'bring together, unite' (cf. M.L.G. gadderen, O.Fris. gaderia)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=gather
06:20:26 <aspect> .ety together
06:20:26 <phenny> "O.E. togædere, from to (see to) + gædere 'together' (adv.), apparently a variant of the adverb geador 'together,' related to gadrian (see gather)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=together
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07:10:06 <sbp> yo
07:10:34 <danja> yo sbp - how goes?
07:12:07 <sbp> cool thanks danja
07:12:14 <sbp> lots o' work today
07:12:22 <sbp> how are you?
07:13:07 <axod> morning sbp,danja
07:13:55 <sbp> [[[
07:13:56 <sbp> WELCOME TO THE INNOVATYF RE-BRANDINGE OF
07:13:56 <sbp> GEOFFREY CHAUCER HATH AN EXTREME BLOG: GO ENGLAND! IT YS RAD!
07:13:56 <sbp> ]]]
07:14:12 *** sbp changed the topic to: "GO ENGLAND! IT YS RAD!"
07:16:15 <sbp> [[[
07:16:16 <sbp> 2. Why is almost everyone involved with this named Thomas?
07:16:16 <sbp> Go to Canterburye and light yowerself a clue candle, doctor of theologie.
07:16:17 <sbp> ]]]
07:16:22 <sbp> 'morning axod
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07:17:35 <sbp> man this post is funny
07:17:37 <sbp> [[[
07:17:37 <sbp> When the lordes appellant fynde the source of the crakke ye are smokinge, in their grace and widsdam thei shall destroye it to make safe the healthe of the nacioun and to quell swich fables and ficcions.
07:17:38 <sbp> ]]]
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07:17:52 <Monty> hey phenny
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07:18:09 <Monty> howdy, Arnia
07:19:09 <phenny> Hey Monty!
07:19:11 <Monty> try http://www.editgrid.com/
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07:21:01 <sbp> phenny: tell Arnia http://houseoffame.blogspot.com/2008/07/new-order-by-lords-appellant-and-tho.html is one of the funniest things I've read in ages
07:21:01 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when Arnia is around.
07:23:00 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7522335.stm
07:23:01 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | World | Americas | 'Wall Street got drunk' says Bush
07:23:11 <danja> chaucer - lol
07:23:20 <d8uv> Seriously?
07:23:22 <d8uv> Oh man
07:24:45 <sbp> "Google's Blogger service is responsible for 2% of the world's malware hosted on the Web, according to a new report from security firm Sophos." - /.
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07:39:20 * danja declines to upgrade wordpress right now, looks too much like hard work
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07:55:52 * danja has extra dose of valium in anticipation of mother's arrival
07:56:05 <d8uv> ...
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08:01:17 <danja> yay! I'd forgotten I'd booked a cleaner to come in this morning - one less thing to stress about
08:03:21 * danja puts on a Decca anthology of girlie music in celebration
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08:47:22 <danja> sbp, around?
08:47:48 <d8uv> sbp is around, is writing
08:48:21 <danja> ah. best leave him to it for now ;-)
08:48:30 <danja> if he has the muse
08:48:46 <d8uv> Nah, he's writing comedies, so the muse is a sexy clown
08:48:52 <d8uv> Sexy lady clown
08:48:56 <d8uv> Excuse me
08:49:05 <d8uv> What should I pass onto him?
08:49:43 <danja> "sexy lady clown"? isn't that a [enter posh word for contradiction]
08:50:06 <danja> nuffin urgent, just wanted his advice on licenses
08:52:02 <d8uv> I think I can speak for sbp on this: Eiffel Forum License v2 is probably what you want. You can also go GPL (but that's gay), or public domain (a little less gay than gpl, but still quite gay)
08:52:20 <cre8radix> heya
08:53:20 <cre8radix> d8uv: what kinda comedy?
08:54:13 <d8uv> Here comes the sbp
08:54:15 <d8uv> Hum
08:54:16 <d8uv> bum
08:54:18 <d8uv> hum
08:54:19 <d8uv> bum
08:54:25 <sbp> danja: if you have to use a license, the EFL 2 is indeed what I'd advise
08:54:43 <sbp> but lately I'm much against software licenses of all varieties
08:54:49 <cre8radix> :D
08:55:27 <sbp> I think that software licenses fuel a very strange and pointless set of social encumberances
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08:57:04 <sbp> the problem is that the need for complex software licenses seems to be propagated by two class of people: those who make money helping people create, and comply with, complicated copying conditions; and those who are philosophical undergraduate-level zealots trying to make the world a "better place" through adherence to copyleft &c. visions of misplaced social grandeur
08:57:59 <sbp> now I'm not opposed to copyleft as a doctrine, note; I'm opposed to the expression of it in such trenchantly annoying legalistic terms as we find with all software licenses
08:58:11 <sbp> the thing is: how often is a software license actually defended in court?
08:58:22 <sbp> if you write a module for a piece of code which is 500 lines in length
08:58:26 <sbp> and somebody steals a function from it
08:58:35 <sbp> will you take them to court? will they expect to be taken to court?
08:58:51 <sbp> I recall that there was an argument some time ago that GPL 2 was a failboat because it had never been defended in court
08:59:29 <sbp> and the GPL 2 is one of the most popular licenses! thousands, perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands, of pieces of code are licensed under it. and not a single one has had its honour defended in court?
09:00:22 <sbp> so you have to wonder where this focus on the requirement for software licenses comes from, and I'm fairly sure that my two groups of people (software lawyers and studentish activists) account this for the most part
09:01:12 <d8uv> But, if you don't pick a license, you'll start a conversation about software licenses. Don't start conversations about software licenses. Just pick the EFL, it's the right choice in 80% of everything. 10% is for GPL, 10% for public domain. EFL is a good balance between the wants of douchebag copyleft zealots, and the pure pragmatism of public domain
09:01:25 <sbp> as to why the programmers let it persist: it's the age old technobunkum problem. if there's a bit of mindwanking that can be done about any subject, programmers will fall afoul of it. it doesn't matter how unproductive or socially silly the problem, they'll fall for it
09:01:40 <sbp> yeah, exactly. though I'm trying a new tack
09:01:50 <sbp> nslater and I worked on a license which is written in English
09:01:56 <sbp> something I've been threatening to do for ages now
09:02:16 <sbp> “You may modify and share this work if you preserve attribution.”
09:02:19 <sbp> this is the "license"
09:02:32 <d8uv> OH GREAT ANOTHER SOFTWARE LICENSE
09:02:32 <sbp> http://bytesexual.org/miscellanea/license explains some of the rationale and how it works
09:03:01 <sbp> well it is a license, but it's not written in legalistic English
09:03:12 <sbp> it's written in just English. it's something that anyone can understand
09:03:28 <d8uv> FIRE THE FLARES, TIME TO CALL ALL THE WORLD'S DOUCHEBAGS IN TO PONTIFICATE ABOUT BORING SHIT THAT EVERYONE HATES
09:03:35 <sbp> hehe
09:03:48 <sbp> well we figured that the law (US and EU) already gives people the following rights:
09:03:53 <leobard> the party of the first party, from now on called party of the first party...
09:03:58 <sbp> * you can download the code if it's freely available online
09:04:02 <sbp> * you can use that code
09:04:10 <sbp> * you can make local modifications to that code
09:04:17 <sbp> * you can even distribute the patches of those modifications
09:04:24 <d8uv> You're forgetting that:
09:04:37 <sbp> really there's only two things that software licenses let people do that isn't already allowed by law, for the most part:
09:04:40 <d8uv> * The world doesn't need more software licenses. It needs less
09:04:48 <sbp> * redistributing the whole code with modifications
09:04:59 <sbp> * redistributing the code verbatim
09:05:08 <d8uv> * And, unless it's blessed by people with big beards, it won't ever be used ever
09:05:10 <sbp> d8uv: but this is just English
09:05:16 <sbp> yeah, I know it won't be used
09:05:28 <d8uv> Then... don't worry about it?
09:05:44 <sbp> but that's the magic of it. since I no longer care about programming, I no longer care whether my code will be used by people who are sucked into this subconscious conspiracy of technobunkum
09:06:02 <sbp> well, I don't mind people making copies of my code or modifications if they keep my name on it
09:06:06 <sbp> so that's all I'm saying
09:06:17 <sbp> you can modify and share this work if you preserve attribution
09:06:25 <sbp> which is the shortest way of expressing it that I could think of
09:06:40 <d8uv> As laudable as your goals are, you're still knee-deep in the mindwankfest
09:06:47 <sbp> why's that?
09:07:13 <d8uv> Because you made a software license, and are talking about software licenses!
09:07:34 <sbp> yeah, but only because I was asked about software licences
09:07:43 <d8uv> Nice going there, mini-stallman
09:07:50 <sbp> and people will continue to say "what's this code licensed under?"
09:08:14 <sbp> note that this license doesn't have a name, and it's not approved by any lawyer or legal organisation
09:08:21 <sbp> so I'm not sure how much of a "license" that makes it
09:08:26 <d8uv> Yeah
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09:08:43 <sbp> people will think of it as a license, but I just think of it as a bit of text which says what you can do with the code without making me grumble
09:08:47 <sbp> it's just an English sentence
09:09:24 <d8uv> And now you got me talking about licenses. Awesome
09:09:28 <sbp> heh, heh
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09:09:51 <d8uv> The point of licenses is to set up a legal scaffold so you can't spin around and sue us
09:10:03 <d8uv> That is why this exists
09:10:04 <Monty> thanx jsled should put that code like all my uncle once Voda, and weight of people think GNU vs non-copyleft maximises users a nice to xhtml has one never answered my mother bitch please, this article?
09:10:10 <sbp> yes, but if they're never used (if the GPL 2 has never been tried in court for example)...
09:10:14 <sbp> then what's the point?
09:10:27 <sbp> it's an insurance against being hit in the arse by a comet
09:10:42 <sbp> this is a sign of madness
09:10:56 <sbp> people who are mad completely misgague probabilities for some reason
09:11:03 <d8uv> GPL has been tested in court though
09:11:08 <sbp> they basically resort to solipsism
09:11:09 <sbp> oh yeah?
09:11:12 <d8uv> I think in germany
09:11:29 * sbp -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL#The_GPL_in_court
09:11:40 <d8uv> .title http://www.linux.com/articles/57353
09:11:42 <phenny> d8uv: Linux.com :: GPL passes acid test in German court
09:11:42 <Monty> xover: 09:26Z <sbp> the underlying meaning for contradiction]
09:11:55 <sbp> oh man:
09:11:55 <sbp> [[[
09:11:56 <sbp> In May of 2005, Daniel Wallace filed suit against the Free Software Foundation (FSF) in the Southern District of Indiana, contending that the GPL is an illegal attempt to fix prices at zero. The suit was dismissed in March 2006, on the grounds that Wallace had failed to state a valid anti-trust claim; the court noted that "the GPL encourages, rather than discourages, free competition and the distribution of computer operating systems, the benefits of which direct
09:11:56 <sbp> ly pass to consumers."[34] Wallace was denied the possibility of further amending his complaint, and was ordered to pay the FSF's legal expenses.
09:11:58 <sbp> ]]]
09:12:48 <sbp> yeah, passed in German court
09:12:49 <sbp> great
09:13:44 <sbp> hmm. I wonder if it would be possible to roughly calculate the probability that a piece of code will have to be defended in court
09:14:01 <sbp> I suppose the thing to do would be to try to get insured against it
09:14:08 <d8uv> The benefit of having things written by lawyers, in legalese (even though half of the GPL is really just copyleft pretentious dickwaggling), is that their stuff generally will hold up in court
09:14:24 <sbp> because it's an insurance company's business to be a good risk assessor
09:14:43 <sbp> yeah, but are you really gonna defend it in court?
09:14:50 <sbp> I think you're living in a world of make believe
09:15:32 <d8uv> Am I gonna defend code I write in court? No, but that's because I don't write code, and even if I did, most of it would be public domain anyway
09:15:37 <sbp> hehe
09:16:45 <sbp> it's a similar belief system to the Semantic Web, and all other technobunkum things
09:16:46 <d8uv> But... even then, the GPL exists so that you can have lawyers say "Ok, do this, this and this, and we can't nail you. Otherwise, you're fair game"
09:17:08 <sbp> yes, but you'll never have to employ lawyers to do that
09:17:17 <sbp> or there might be literally a one in a hundred thousand chance or something
09:17:34 <sbp> also, think about it, when you use GPL 2 licensed code...
09:17:40 <sbp> do you ever actually read the whole license through?
09:17:44 <sbp> how many people do you think do that?
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09:17:56 <sbp> our understanding of what the GPL 2 allows and doesn't comes from Wikipedia or word or mouth etc.
09:18:01 <sbp> it's like EULAs
09:18:09 <sbp> nobody reads the damn things, they just click "Accept"
09:18:18 <sbp> "just get on with it, sheesh"
09:18:27 <d8uv> But, given time, and the growing scope of GPL code, it's inevitable that therw will be a legal test
09:18:43 <sbp> I don't think the probability will rise
09:18:56 <sbp> we're not suddenly going to see one in a thousand pieces of GPL code being defended in court
09:19:01 <d8uv> And, my understanding of the GPL2 text comes from an english description of the GPL, written by FSF
09:19:11 <sbp> if the probability were one in a thousand, then software licensing would be sensible
09:19:21 <sbp> there you. so it's not the legal code itself
09:19:41 <d8uv> Well, the legal code binds the code legally
09:19:48 <sbp> eh?
09:20:15 <sbp> so technically, it's your responsibility to know and understand it thoroughly
09:20:21 <sbp> if you're going to comply with it
09:20:28 <sbp> otherwise how do you know if you're complying with it?
09:20:42 <sbp> there might be something in there about your first born, for all you know
09:20:56 <sbp> (as I think was slipped into some EULA somewhere, though maybe that's an apocryphal story)
09:21:13 <d8uv> Like, the legal code was written by lawyers, for lawyers. It's what matters. The english code was written by the same laywers, means the same thing, but is written for non-laywers. That's for better understanding, so that you can better decode the legal code
09:21:26 <sbp> heh, what?
09:21:43 <sbp> if the English code was written for normal understanding, what's the point of the Legal code?
09:21:52 <sbp> do lawyers not have normal understanding?
09:22:03 <sbp> the point of a Legal code is to be precise in court
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09:22:10 <sbp> but there's no such thing as absolute precision in language
09:22:20 <d8uv> Lawyers have to write things in a stupid way. It's like a test or something
09:22:20 <Monty> dungeons+dragons, he-man, and for "non-markup-language content whose ``standard'' is full text -->
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09:22:46 <sbp> I'm not saying that legalese is a bad thing
09:22:56 <sbp> but it's only to be used in its proper context
09:22:56 <d8uv> Yes you are
09:23:22 <sbp> I don't think that ridiculous clauses for what you can and can't do with a bit of software that nobody cares about is a proper context
09:23:39 <sbp> a mortgage deed or something like that is a proper context
09:23:49 <sbp> a marriage certificate, an employment contract...
09:24:15 <d8uv> Yeah. And I agree that software isn't as important as those things but...
09:24:16 <sbp> "yeah, you can modify and distribute my code if you keep my name on it" doesn't require any more explanation than that
09:24:48 <sbp> when you visit my house, you don't have to sign a legal agreement not to drink my water or something unless I tell you that's okay
09:24:52 <sbp> it's the same level of triviality
09:25:13 <d8uv> Let's say someone does modify and distribute, without attribution. I'd guess you'd be mad, but wouldn't be so petty as to sue, right?
09:25:30 <sbp> it would depend on circumstance
09:25:46 <d8uv> Like... what circumstance?
09:26:11 <sbp> well as I say, I would guess that the probability of a circumstance arising where I would be compelled to sue someone for stealing my code is no greater than one in a hundred thousand
09:26:18 <sbp> so it's hard for me to think about what such a situation might be
09:26:33 <sbp> if it were a piece of code that, by having my name on it, made me very rich...
09:26:41 <sbp> or if someone used it to slander me really, really badly
09:26:45 <sbp> like in the national media or something
09:27:30 <sbp> perhaps you should look at existing cases where people have sued
09:27:42 <sbp> why have they sued?
09:27:57 <sbp> from the GPL thing, it seems to be basically only companies that do it
09:28:07 <d8uv> Let's say... Microsoft takes one of your wiki engines, and plagarises it, and sells it, making them a boatload of money. Would you sue then?
09:28:22 <sbp> yeah, a high probability there I think
09:28:33 <sbp> I mean I guess the first step is to talk to a solicitor about it
09:28:41 <sbp> and then they'd advise whether it would be a good step to sue
09:28:50 <sbp> but if that happened, I'd almost certainly see a solicitor about it
09:29:04 <sbp> and my guess is that they'd say to attempt to sue, if the facts were solid
09:29:10 <sbp> but of course I dunno coz I ain't a solicitor
09:29:53 <d8uv> Well in that case, if your license is just "oh yeah, use and modify, leave my name on it lol", or the EFL, which do you think would hold up in court more?
09:30:04 <d8uv> Or the GPL.
09:30:06 <sbp> oh, the former of course
09:30:23 <sbp> because it's much fuzzier than the EFL as you observe
09:30:31 <sbp> so it's much more risky on the behalf of the user
09:31:11 <sbp> it's going to be pretty hard for them to claim that it means they can do whatever they want with it, surely?
09:31:13 <d8uv> But because it's fuzzy, and not clear it's a license, there's a bunch of tricks that lawyers can do
09:31:31 <d8uv> Or something
09:31:53 <sbp> I would think that the worst case goes the other way
09:32:12 <sbp> i.e. that the main reason it's a bad thing is that people would think that the software *writer* can squirrel out of it
09:32:56 <sbp> "actually attribution means such-and-such-a-thing and you didn't circle your leg three times in the air and spit on a pine tree as I required so you infringed it and blah blah"
09:33:41 <d8uv> The point that I'm trying to make is, the courts are ultimately the final destination for arguments, and having something drafted by a lawyer in your corner is better than some vauge statement written by Some Dude.
09:33:43 <sbp> if “You may modify and share this work if you preserve attribution.” isn't clear then why do we even bother using language?
09:33:55 <sbp> well the courts, I like to believe, are reasonable
09:34:07 <danja> sbp, would joint efl 2 + w3c license work?
09:34:22 <sbp> you mean, are they compatible? as far as I know, yeah
09:34:23 <d8uv> danja: you're an asshole. efl2
09:34:36 <danja> ..?
09:34:53 <sbp> d8uv is basically saying "NO. EFL 2 ONLY. WTF"
09:34:55 <sbp> :-)
09:35:18 * danja appreciates d8uv->translation
09:35:31 <sbp> it's often required
09:36:23 <danja> ok, compromise, efl2 with note saying other licences may be considered if necessary
09:36:27 <d8uv> Making licenses important. Not super important, not nearly as important as everyone makes them out to be, but important enough to exist
09:36:39 <sbp> works too
09:36:56 <sbp> I think I had to release a piece of code once under like five different licenses
09:37:02 <sbp> because everybody wanted me to use their favourite license
09:37:05 * Arnia sniggers at Chaucer
09:37:05 <phenny> Arnia: 07:21Z <sbp> tell Arnia http://houseoffame.blogspot.com/2008/07/new-order-by-lords-appellant-and-tho.html is one of the funniest things I've read in ages
09:37:09 <Arnia> "How hangeth it, ladyes and lordes? This is nat Geoffrey Chaucer. Geoffrey Chaucer ys chubtastick and hath a smal woolen hat the which was cool back when round tables seemid lyk a fresshe idea."
09:37:10 <sbp> :-)
09:37:16 <sbp> hehe, yeah
09:37:27 <sbp> the whole questions and answers thing is just insanely good
09:38:14 <Arnia> Oh, did you see last night's strangeness on swig?
09:38:18 <sbp> nope
09:38:26 <Arnia> Worth a giggle
09:38:32 <Arnia> (I think at any rate)
09:38:41 <Arnia> Which of us to giggle at, I'll leave up to you
09:41:04 <sbp> <searke> trust me, im just fairly sure that theta roles are the wave of the future
09:41:07 <sbp> WAVE OF THE FUTURE
09:41:41 <d8uv> I like butter rolls but whatever
09:43:26 <sbp> <Arnia> searke: c.f. radical construction grammar
09:43:28 <sbp> (cf.)
09:43:39 <sbp> d8uv: no YOU like butter rolls
09:43:55 <Arnia> sbp: I use the excuse of it being some ridiculous hour :p
09:44:07 <Arnia> (and utter ignorance)
09:46:56 <d8uv> Also sbp, now that I'm done making you hulk-angry-smash, when you're done hurling around cars, will you finish the youtube rant/
09:47:01 <cre8radix> heya sbp
09:47:05 <cre8radix> 'sup?
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09:49:04 <sbp> wow, you guys have a very different understanding of the PI than I do
09:49:15 <sbp> d8uv: still reading the swig logs
09:49:45 <Arnia> PI?
09:49:50 <d8uv> K
09:49:55 <sbp> Philosophical Investigations
09:49:55 <Arnia> O
09:50:05 <Arnia> ah
09:50:08 <Arnia> R
09:50:20 * Arnia hums the Kiora theme
09:50:32 * sbp hums the Kia Ora advert theme
09:50:42 <Arnia> ugh
09:50:53 <Arnia> why am I so unable to type or spell today?
09:51:00 * Arnia sighs
09:51:01 <sbp> ah, you meant that too? heh
09:53:02 <sbp> heh, http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1030 is what I'm pretty good at avoiding
09:53:12 <sbp> except when it comes to summarising books for some reason
09:54:08 <Arnia> It isn't quite as bad as all that
09:55:34 * aspect is reminded of http://xkcd.com/451/
09:55:39 <sbp> oh, I got to the punchline: * tommorris is not convinced that it is within the remit of RDF to be a 100% mapping of natural language
09:58:39 <Arnia> aspect: in what way?
09:58:55 <sbp> ahahaha
09:58:55 <sbp> <searke> but god help you if im not satisfied because Ill come back....
09:58:59 <aspect> Arnia: comics. literature. That's about as deep as it went :)
09:59:04 <Arnia> ah
10:00:12 <axod> If Apple completely open sourced the iPhone software/firmware, gave away the phone free, with no contract, I think people would still complain
10:01:12 * Arnia blinks
10:01:20 <Arnia> apropos of?
10:01:58 <axod> O I just saw this over at hacker news: http://www.fuckingnda.com/
10:04:06 <sbp> mnot was the first, by the way
10:04:06 <sbp> http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/rdfig/2001-11-02.html#T04-14-00
10:04:15 <sbp> they didn't include #rdfig
10:04:46 <Arnia> Ah
10:10:44 <Arnia> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7522952.stm
10:10:45 <phenny> Arnia: BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | NZ judge orders 'odd' name change
10:11:05 <Arnia> "Officials had blocked Sex Fruit, Keenan Got Lucy and Yeah Detroit, he said, but Number 16 Bus Shelter, Violence and Midnight Chardonnay had been allowed."
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11:15:22 <nslater> loggy: pointer
11:15:22 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2008-07-24#T11-15-22
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11:16:48 <Monty> bah, it's danja_ again
11:21:21 <danja_> oh bugger off and learn about underscores Monty
11:21:23 <Monty> cool scripting language in to poke at me.
11:21:33 <danja_> quite.
11:24:50 <nslater> danja_: did you ever get your reverse proxy stuff workin?
11:26:48 <danja_> close...
11:28:17 <danja_> see http://n2.talis.com/wiki/DanjaTemp
11:28:31 <danja_> at least I can now get stuff on Planet RDF
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11:34:32 * Arnia blinks
11:34:37 <Arnia> 404 on your homepage
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11:35:19 <nslater> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7522334.stm
11:35:21 <phenny> nslater: BBC NEWS | Technology | Net firms in music pirates deal
11:35:36 <nslater> [[[
11:35:36 <nslater> Six of the UK's biggest net providers have agreed a plan with the music industry to tackle piracy online.
11:35:40 <nslater> The deal, negotiated by the government, will see hundreds of thousands of letters sent to net users suspected of illegally sharing music.
11:35:43 <nslater> ]]]
11:36:30 <nslater> ... I think I might switch to another ISP
11:37:31 <nslater> "There should be effective mechanisms in place (to deter file-sharing) and as long as they are effective, we don't mind what they are."
11:37:37 <nslater> le sigh, when will they learn
11:38:13 <Arnia> you're presuming you are correct of course, and it is they who must learn
11:38:19 <nslater> yes, it is
11:38:24 <Arnia> I'm not convinced either way
11:38:39 <nslater> "as long as they are effective" - this will never happen
11:38:40 <nslater> ever
11:38:46 <nslater> that's my point, not an ethical one
11:38:49 <sbp> Arnia: yeah, classic tension
11:38:55 <sbp> 6.8 million people illegally sharing files
11:39:22 <sbp> and a whole host of artists (and even more businessmen) who wanna be paid for their work
11:39:40 <sbp> it'd be interesting if they held a referendum on it or something
11:40:17 <sbp> I wouldn't be surprised if the file-sharers became the moral majority eventually
11:40:32 <sbp> but since there's big monies involved, the reverse wouldn't astonish me particularly either
11:40:50 <nslater> sbp: exactly, and even more interesting when this generation ends up in parliament
11:40:56 <sbp> happy mediums like In Rainbows and whatnot will probably happen more often, I would suspect
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11:40:59 <sbp> nslater: heh
11:41:14 <sbp> yeah, but only the politically isolated members of our generation will end up in parliament
11:41:14 <Arnia> It is social anyway. Make it easy for people to buy music and films conveniently and on-demand (iTunes, Amazon, etc.) to stop those who only share for convenience. Scare those on the fence.
11:41:16 <nslater> well, it's going to happen - and when it does become the moral majority, what then
11:41:34 <sbp> this is why we have the lords; to represent the commoners
11:41:38 <Arnia> Then hope that most people are not in the 'hardcore' group which will never change, and take them as an acceptable loss
11:41:38 <nslater> Arnia: thats still broken imho
11:41:48 <Arnia> nslater: why?
11:41:51 <nslater> sbp: hah
11:42:29 <nslater> Arnia: sorry, I misread you
11:43:26 <Arnia> Have to have a few high profile actions of course, otherwise there is no fear. But the basic principal is how Rule of Law works.
11:43:27 <nslater> if you make buying music an passive thing, like the way my buying pattern is an ambient part of my listening experience (thanks to iTunes), I expect many people would stop file-sharing
11:43:50 <nslater> Arnia: but Rule of Law doesn't make sense when it become the moral majority, as sbp pointed out
11:44:00 <Arnia> Most people are law abiding, whatever those laws are, some are on the fence and need to be scared, and some break the law anyway
11:44:09 <Arnia> nslater: but they aren't the moral majority now
11:44:10 <nslater> or rather, laws don't make any sense after they outlaw commonly accepted parts of society
11:44:13 <nslater> sure
11:44:15 <Arnia> so that's a canard
11:44:22 <sbp> to become a moral majority they'd have to go over the 50% line note
11:44:35 <sbp> it's not a matter of democractially weighing things up
11:44:41 <nslater> line note?
11:44:42 <sbp> I mean, there'll never be a referendum about file sharing
11:44:45 <sbp> line, note
11:44:48 <Arnia> They have to statistically significantly go over the line
11:44:49 <nslater> line note?
11:44:54 <nslater> line?
11:45:03 <sbp> 50% | <- line 50%
11:45:09 <nslater> E_MISSING_CONTEXT
11:45:09 <Arnia> Note, the 50% line.
11:45:18 <nslater> who would mesure this line?
11:45:27 <Arnia> Well, it is 50% of the population
11:45:41 <sbp> right. a referendum is the normal political measurement we use
11:45:46 <Arnia> (probably more like 60% actually to account for survey biases)
11:46:46 <Arnia> And add another 10% on to justify a change to law
11:47:07 <Arnia> So you'd need to measure a majority of 70%
11:47:11 <sbp> in reality, if there were no referendum, we'd probably see something like the blasphemy law
11:47:36 <Arnia> Emasculated laws are fun
11:47:41 <sbp> where it would "stay on the books" but slowly have bits of it phased out by later parliament acts, european laws, and case law
11:48:35 <sbp> until it eventually no longer becomes prosecutable according to a house of lords report that nobody's ever heard about, and only a few "oh this law is so evills" (even though it doesn't exist) zealots go out 'n' prove that it's gone once and for all
11:48:41 <nslater> ... I still don't understand why the industry isn't embracing the file-sharing generation
11:49:06 <nslater> like, compare iTunes, they really missed a trick
11:49:14 <Arnia> nslater: maybe they have more information than you do
11:49:16 <sbp> presumably they can't make as much money out of embracing hippie file sharing as they can sending out a hundred thousand warning letters and lobbying the government to crack down on it yet
11:49:25 <Arnia> being that their livelihoods depend upon it
11:49:28 <nslater> Arnia: I don't think it's about that
11:49:29 <sbp> yeah
11:49:42 <nslater> no, I really, really don't think it's about that
11:49:46 <sbp> I'll bet they have plenty of think tanks and number crunchers devoted to this
11:49:56 <sbp> and each of 'em will have one opinion based on their context and set of facts
11:50:03 <sbp> and the industry heads have to decide what to do based on that
11:50:19 <Arnia> If the risks of change of business model were low and the benefits manifest, then they'd do it
11:50:31 <sbp> businesses are pretty good at being businesses
11:50:33 <nslater> I disagree, I think it's an industry out of touch, trying to keep it's choke hold on old revenue streams... the constant legal dancing they do are just the death throes of a dying behemoth
11:50:36 <Arnia> Or if they didn't, then they'd get fired and someone else would do it
11:50:56 <Arnia> nslater: nice rhetoric. A bit prolix
11:51:01 <sbp> yeah
11:51:08 <nslater> well, you both have a pretty rose tinted view of how business work
11:51:46 <sbp> well I don't disagree with such things as "the industry is out of touch" or even "trying to keep its choke hold on old revenue streams"
11:52:02 <nslater> executive management at notoriously out of touch with reality, advisors be damned - large companies constantly do braindead things because someone "up top" thought it was a good idea
11:52:11 <sbp> just pointing out that they must believe it's objectively worth choke-holding those streams
11:53:03 <sbp> well, look what happened to In Rainbows
11:53:07 <sbp> didn't they pull the download now?
11:53:15 <sbp> they're selling a boxed set of it now. no more online download
11:53:37 <sbp> the business case doesn't seem all that clear cut
11:54:14 <sbp> it might take quite a bit of experimentation before a company can do the whole hippie-file-sharing thing in such a way that's crafted to bring them in as much or more revenue than they get from the "antiquated" way they're doing it now
11:54:34 <sbp> it's like a drying track at a grand prix
11:54:46 <sbp> nobody goes on to intermediate tyres, they all stay on the full wets
11:54:57 <sbp> until someone *low down the order* takes it as a gamble
11:55:15 <sbp> and then everybody else sees he's five seconds per lap quicker and whoosh, they're all in to get intermediate tyres... :-)
11:55:21 <nslater> yes, but again, my experience of business is that things are not as clear cut as the theory would dicate - you think that they would be maximising revenue from detailed studies and research, but oftentimes you have systemic dysfunction and power mad, out of touch execs running the shop - large companies frequently make absolutely huge, and avoidable mistakes because of the way they broken
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11:55:41 <sbp> you have experience of business at a managing-EMI level?
11:56:05 <sbp> I'm not really sure I feel like being convinced by argument-from-authority here... :-)
11:56:15 <nslater> this is an argument from authority?
11:56:25 <sbp> yeah, you're backing up your claims by experience
11:56:52 <sbp> which I'm just mentally deleting
11:56:57 <nslater> ... I have experience of working with and for enterprise executive management teams
11:57:01 <nslater> or whatever
11:57:04 <nslater> nothing as big as EMI
11:57:05 <sbp> and letting you know about it, because this is a friendly argument :-)
11:57:06 <nslater> natch
11:57:11 <sbp> aye
11:57:15 <nslater> but, you know...
11:57:30 * sbp is *really* just trying to avoid working... sigh
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11:57:59 <sbp> I would like it if they moved more revolutionarily
11:58:03 <sbp> but I can't see it happening
11:58:10 <sbp> if you were Prime Minister or something, what would you do?
11:58:19 <nslater> smoke pot and hire some stripers
11:58:24 <sbp> someone in a position of influence but not connected with... good idea
11:58:24 <nslater> (FACT)
11:58:30 <Arnia_> How do you know, for example, that the new revenue streams are sufficient?
11:58:32 *** Arnia_ is now known as Arnia
11:58:32 <sbp> not connected with the industry
11:58:34 <Arnia> sbp: slowly and carefully
11:58:40 <Arnia> Unintended consequences and all
11:59:05 <sbp> yeah. I was just talking whilst you were netsplit about people not wanting to make the first radical move first
11:59:33 <nslater> sbp: but regardless of my perhaps limited experience with corporations the size of EMI, it is reasonable to suspect that systemic dysfunction pervades the majority of large organisations
11:59:39 <Arnia> Hm... half of what I said was lost
11:59:42 <Arnia> bollocks
11:59:57 <sbp> pervades all organisations with more than one person, in *my* experience... :-)
12:01:06 <sbp> nslater: again, how would you overcome it if you were in a position of neutral influence?
12:01:32 <sbp> better than Prime Minister question, say you had £50m to spend on campaigning/lobbying/etc.; you could only spend it on this situation
12:01:39 <sbp> no blackjack and hookers on the moon
12:01:55 * sbp has to have gone to do work by now
12:02:03 <sbp> super procrastination FOR EARTH WINS
12:02:29 * sbp grumbles out of self-discipline, wanders off, waving distractedly
12:02:38 <nslater> hehe
12:02:48 <nslater> sbp: dunno, I will mull it
12:03:26 <Arnia> I'd like to know what the business case is
12:03:33 <nslater> hmm?
12:03:35 <nslater> for what?
12:03:37 <Arnia> I mean, how much more money will they make?
12:03:49 <Arnia> Not just 'oh they will', but *how much*
12:04:12 <nslater> well, iTunes is good place to start - they really nailed the online music thing
12:04:17 <Arnia> Re-education is expensive, as is rebranding and running down of undischarged investments
12:04:24 <nslater> though, I guess it would need to be completely DRM free for it to count
12:04:30 <Arnia> nslater: not an answer. How much?
12:04:39 <nslater> I said a good place to start...
12:04:49 <Arnia> It isn't a place to start
12:05:01 <Arnia> It is a qualitative statement. I'm looking for a quantitative one
12:05:17 <Arnia> If you're to convince them you need justified argument, which means a business plan
12:05:19 <nslater> yes it is, because you can look at iTunes as make some assesments of the online for-money music market place
12:05:25 <nslater> and you're not going to get quantitative figures
12:05:30 <nslater> until you actually do it
12:05:32 <Arnia> You can estimate them
12:05:37 <nslater> from what?
12:05:46 <Arnia> But base the estimates on as much concrete market research as possible
12:06:29 <nslater> well, it's a tricky area, how many people are going to be completely candid about their personal (and oftentimes illegal) internet activities
12:06:54 <Arnia> Well, the burden is really on you if you're hoping to convince them to take a massive risk
12:06:58 <nslater> "oh yes mr person in a suit, I download 3 holiwood dvds and 6 pornos per week"
12:07:15 <Arnia> and there are sampling techniques which get around that problem as well
12:07:36 <nslater> really? how so?
12:07:38 <Arnia> (otherwise mental health and sexuality assessments would be pointless)
12:07:43 <nslater> hmm
12:08:08 <nslater> I wonder how many scholars already think they *are* pointless :)
12:08:14 <Arnia> There are double blind sampling techniques for a start, where neither the interviewer nor interviewee knows who the other is
12:08:37 <chandler> so all you're left with is people lying to themselves
12:08:42 <chandler> which is a non-trivial problem
12:08:42 <nslater> yeah...
12:08:57 <Arnia> chandler: non-trivial, but dealable
12:09:07 <Arnia> chandler: you can lower significance appropriately
12:09:21 <chandler> I still take sex-related surveys with a huge grain of salt as a result
12:09:28 <nslater> of course!
12:09:36 <chandler> if there's any area where people are going to lie to themselves, it's about that :-)
12:10:12 <Arnia> Anyway, this doesn't affect my argument
12:10:21 <Arnia> It just affects the chances of you being able to convince them
12:10:25 * chandler reads scrollback to determine exactly what is being debated here
12:10:28 <nslater> bah, eben moglen did a really good essay on all this
12:10:48 * Arnia notes that quality assessment is biased by prior agreement
12:10:53 <nslater> Arnia: I'm not trying to convince them, if they keep getting it wrong (asuming they are, and that I am correct), someone else will come and steal the thunder and they will die
12:11:04 <Arnia> Indeed
12:11:08 <nslater> which is the joy of free market
12:11:20 * nslater hopes he's not abusing the term
12:11:39 <Arnia> Or they adapt slower and more conservatively and don't change in every way you think
12:11:58 <Arnia> But regardless, I think file sharing will still be frowned upon
12:12:08 <Arnia> And many fewer people will do it
12:12:28 <nslater> well, I think that's contentious - but hey
12:12:45 <Arnia> If for no other reason than PCs are going to fade over the next fifty years into a nostalgic memory
12:12:47 <Arnia> (IMO)
12:13:08 <Arnia> So the idea of downloading something onto your own computer will be a little archaic
12:13:13 <chandler> I'd like to see a good study comparing the prevalence of file sharing now to people handing around copied CDs 10 years ago
12:13:15 <nslater> I think the moral gap between our (and younger) generations and the older generations is widening if anything, not converging... and file-sharing is a prominant part of that
12:13:32 <Arnia> Eh?
12:13:42 <Arnia> [CITATION NEEDED]
12:13:46 <nslater> "I think"
12:13:54 <Arnia> Still need justification
12:13:58 <chandler> 1) nslater's brain
12:14:01 <nslater> my personal experience :/
12:14:12 <Arnia> so, which bits of your experience?
12:14:22 <Arnia> I cannot take that statement at face value
12:14:32 <Arnia> Seems a massive leap to me
12:14:32 <nslater> the bits where adults are like "omg file sharing" and the youth are like "zomg, give me filz pls"
12:14:58 <chandler> it's not clear to me that more people are casual pirates now than ten or twenty years ago; I think the technology has just made it easier to do more of it
12:15:14 <nslater> yeah... my father has said something similar actually
12:15:18 <Arnia> I don't see a moral gap at all
12:15:28 <nslater> okay
12:16:19 <nslater> meh, perhaps you're right... okay, hmm
12:16:38 <Arnia> Anyway, I find the subscription services more interesting
12:17:04 <Arnia> Can you imagine having a subscription which gave you access to all the books on Amazon?
12:17:26 <nslater> actually, I agree with both you and chandler... it makes more sense to imagine that the public has been pretty apethetic to the whole thing for many years
12:17:33 <chandler> subject to "reasonable use limitations", yes
12:17:58 <nslater> Arnia: if I could pay like £30 a month to listen/watch/read whatever I wanted I would sign up right now
12:18:25 <Arnia> well, I think that would be a more sensible campaign then
12:18:29 <nslater> provided I could GET whatever I wanted with a few clicks of my mouse
12:18:54 <Arnia> Getting all the major media producers to co-operate and offer subscription services
12:18:55 <nslater> and provided I wasn't forced to use non-free microsoft fuck-me-harder drm infested spyware shit
12:19:14 <Arnia> er... you don't own the material though
12:19:16 <Arnia> In any sense
12:19:21 <nslater> why not?
12:19:31 <Arnia> You're renting it
12:19:38 <Arnia> Most definitely, in the subscription model
12:19:50 <nslater> why not charge £30 a month to download as much as you wanted? as in, actually download and own
12:20:20 <nslater> you're going to get the same amout of money out of me either way
12:20:55 <nslater> everyone else who really cares about getting the content they want is going to subscribe, for the convenience
12:21:08 <nslater> so you're still, probably, going to take the same revenue
12:21:14 <Arnia> This has always puzzled me... 'freedom' campaigners use the argument that software is information, as is music and films, etc. But in that case, how can you 'own' it. You can definitely specify a contractual obligation to have access to it for a time, but you cannot physically own it
12:21:19 <nslater> sure, some people will share the files, but hey, what's the real insentive
12:21:22 <Arnia> So the most that you can do is rental
12:21:38 *** MacTed has quit ()
12:21:38 <nslater> Arnia: please dont go off on the whole anti freedom thing :(
12:21:56 <Arnia> nslater: I'm not. I'm just struck by the incoherence there, and it is relevant
12:22:01 <Arnia> You can't have it both ways
12:22:09 <nslater> well, mentioning 'freedom' campaigners got my back up
12:22:21 <Arnia> I couldn't think of another term for the group
12:22:25 <Arnia> Hence the quotes
12:22:27 <nslater> I am making an argument based on revenue
12:22:40 <chandler> oh the hypocrisy!
12:22:44 <nslater> hmm?
12:22:52 <chandler> (sorry, I'm lagging in this conversation)
12:23:33 <Arnia> chandler: it isn't hypocrisy I'm accusing them of. Just incoherence in what I read in their arguments
12:23:55 <nslater> this isnt about "omg freedom haters" - this about pragmatics. firstly, drm doesnt work, really. secondly, the people who were going to pay for the service are still going to pay for the service, so what good does it do to shackle the formats to drm?
12:23:58 <Arnia> chandler: since nslater has been active in this area, I wanted to see what he thought of that
12:24:03 <nslater> Arnia: who is this mystical "them"?
12:24:17 <Arnia> nslater: broken-by-design argumenters
12:24:22 <Arnia> Arguers?
12:24:27 <nslater> drm is broken by design? yes, it is
12:24:37 <nslater> because, squarely, it doesnt work as advertised
12:24:48 <chandler> Arnia: I think they're guided by principles which are different than the ones they espouse, which at times results in the appearance of incoherence
12:24:50 * Arnia wasn't aware that DRM was advertised
12:24:51 <nslater> it doesn't prevent sharing, and it inconveniences "inocent" users
12:25:14 <Arnia> I don't think the intent of DRM is to *prevent* sharing
12:25:16 <chandler> it inconveniences the most technically illiterate file sharers
12:25:22 <Arnia> It is a stick for the middle of the roaders
12:25:51 <chandler> I think the goal was to make sure that people who were *sharing* were dedicated to it, so there'd be fewer of them sharing more content
12:25:53 <Arnia> those who need a bit of 'encouragement'
12:25:55 <nslater> right... getting side tracked - I don't want to talk about the merits of drm as a technological solution for a social problem, I want to talk about revenue for out little model we are developing
12:26:01 <chandler> which brought it into the realm of feasible litigation
12:26:09 <chandler> it doesn't do a thing about downloaders
12:26:13 <nslater> so, you offer a service for £30 a month
12:26:45 <nslater> now, you're going to get the money from me regardless of the drm you use
12:27:02 <nslater> even if I share those files, the people who also want the convenience of the service will pay
12:27:09 <chandler> the problem with the $60/month (sorry, no GBP key here) subscription is that such a service will never spring fully formed from Amazon/the RIAA/the MPAA's forehead, so at some point you'll have a service with a quarter of the content at some fraction of the price
12:27:11 <Arnia> nslater: ah, don't agree there
12:27:12 <nslater> so, your revenue stream is largely unaffected
12:27:22 <chandler> and that service is just another annoying walled garden ala ACM / IEEE
12:27:32 <nslater> Arnia: why not? I use iTunes even though I can get all the music free from file sharing
12:27:39 <nslater> Arnia: because it's EASIER
12:27:53 <Arnia> nslater: and so the file sharers make their side easier
12:27:54 <nslater> Arnia: so, the challeneg is to make it easier to use this service than to share files
12:27:54 <chandler> (for what it's worth I'd be just as content to keep buying CDs)
12:28:00 <Arnia> i.e. high risk
12:28:08 <nslater> well, iTunes has it nailed
12:28:09 <Monty> IT TAKES UP PRECIOUS TIME WHICH WE SPEND ON THE GAY BATMAN
12:28:14 <chandler> haha
12:28:28 <nslater> I'M THE GODDAMN BATMAN, MONTY
12:28:29 <Monty> 'sup?
12:28:33 <nslater> 'sup
12:28:46 <chandler> I thought Arnia was the gay Batman
12:28:53 <nslater> who's robin then?
12:28:55 <chandler> have *you* ever seen them in the same room?
12:29:02 <nslater> no that you mention it...
12:29:10 <chandler> ah hAH
12:29:34 <chandler> Monty: thx for disrupting that serious conversation
12:29:39 <Monty> gigantic ejaculating diary scratches desensitised outrage and male falsified portaloos, apparently.
12:29:48 <nslater> quite
12:31:27 <chandler> right now I'm seeing my preferred music genre being destroyed by free, legal podcasts
12:31:39 <Arnia> nslater: I'm being crude in dividing this into three, but accept that I'm just making discrete a continuous thing. DRM is a social piece of technology. Sort of like having a burglar alarm. It primarily works by making someone have a brief moment of indecision. Some would never do it anyway
12:31:45 <Arnia> nslater: some would do it anyway
12:31:59 <Arnia> nslater: some are on the fence, and a moment's pause is enough to put them off
12:32:12 <chandler> the problem is that I like mix CDs, which really only exist as a vehicle for promoting a DJ or a club, not so much for the home listener, and podcasts work just as well for that and are cheaper to produce to boot
12:33:40 <chandler> so I've fallen through a gap in the market and am unable to comment intelligently about what would work for the vast majority of music listeners
12:33:43 <Arnia> nslater: now, I do not like DRM for its inconveniences, but I accept that it is perfectly rational for them to insist on it from their perspective
12:34:24 <chandler> as Arnia says, DRM exists to create that moment of indecision which ultimately reduces the number of file sharers, but even that is just a means to an end
12:34:31 <Arnia> nslater: and until (unless?) alternatives arise which will allow the same effect, I do not believe it is rational for them to change
12:34:46 <chandler> the goal is to reduce the number of sharers until it's feasable to launch lawsuits against all of them
12:35:25 <nslater> Arnia: agreed
12:36:10 <Arnia> So rather than complaining that DRM is 'broken by design' it would be more rational for those who feel like that to work towards an alternative with the desired properties
12:36:24 <chandler> with whose desired properties?
12:36:42 <nslater> so, ultimately, like I said, perhaps not in very good words, earlier, the record industry needs to embrace the new revenue landscape (what a wanky phrase) by deploying systems that make it easier for me to funnel my money to them than share files instead of having a hissy fit and taking 11 year old girls to court for $40,000 for downloading the new NSYNC album
12:36:47 <chandler> the people who are complaining about DRM have desired properties that conflict with the desired properties of the music publishers
12:36:59 <Arnia> chandler: then negotiation will be needed
12:37:08 <chandler> I want control over my software and hardware, and I don't want what I'm listening to monitored
12:37:19 <Arnia> It isn't an either-or thing. That's a matter of compromise on both sides
12:37:35 <nslater> well, not really
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12:37:49 <Arnia> If you don't compromise, you'll just be ignored
12:37:54 <Arnia> Or ridiculed
12:37:54 <nslater> as long as file sharing is easy people are going to do it, it's the record industry that needs to distract US with something else
12:37:58 <Arnia> Either way, you lose
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12:38:14 <Arnia> DRM will still exist
12:38:20 <nslater> something else that's easier and funnels money to them
12:38:34 <chandler> Arnia: as I said, I'm losing anyway, so I don't really have a dog in this fight
12:39:00 <chandler> I can get all the music I want as long as I'm OK with a hastily produced mix distributed as a 128kbps MP3
12:39:04 <nslater> Arnia: I don't think that's nessesarily true
12:39:33 <nslater> if the music industry starts making money without drm, they will drop it
12:39:42 <Arnia> nslater: If you knew you could be imprisoned for up to six months (magistrate's court say) for file sharing, and that there was a 10% chance of you being caught, would you do it?
12:40:00 <nslater> Arnia: no, I would develop some software that made the probability 0.001%
12:40:13 <Arnia> nslater: uh... how?
12:40:33 <Arnia> I'm not presuming DRM here
12:40:36 <nslater> well, hypothetically, using super coding powers
12:40:50 <Arnia> Just stating a detection rate
12:41:08 <chandler> so now you've moved all the file sharing out of the UK and into China
12:41:10 <nslater> yes, and if it was that high, someone would come up with a technological way to lower it again
12:41:11 <chandler> now what?
12:41:25 <Arnia> nslater: oh the Magic Technology argument?
12:41:32 * Arnia wonders if that is a listed fallacy
12:41:36 <nslater> Arnia: well, it's been true so far
12:41:47 * Arnia looks at climate change
12:41:50 <Arnia> O rly?
12:41:54 <chandler> the other lesson of file sharing is that people don't give a rat's ass about audio quality
12:41:57 <nslater> every time they try to supress the flow of information someone manages to circumvent it
12:42:05 <chandler> so the worst case is always just to de-DRM the file by recording the output from your computer
12:42:20 <nslater> I think that "fighting" it on a technological front is doomed to failure, every time
12:42:32 <Arnia> chandler: my argument has no bearing on whether or not it is possible to break DRM
12:42:48 <Arnia> chandler: just as long as DRM needs to be broken, that's enough
12:42:58 <Arnia> (psychologically speaking)
12:43:37 <Arnia> pair that with lots of media stories and you're away
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12:43:49 <Monty> howdy, jetscreamer
12:43:55 <nslater> but... I will concede your hypothetically (yet highly improbable) situation and say that no, I would not risk it
12:44:11 <nslater> but, so what?
12:45:12 <nslater> the point is that (pure speculation) the detection rates will never get that high because people will always route around the technical measures used to stop file sharing, so it will always moderately easy and risk free
12:45:47 <nslater> which means that the only real "solution" for the industry is to provide something that's lower risk and higher gain
12:46:25 <nslater> if that costs be a few quid per month, they have me as a happy customer
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12:47:07 <Monty> Thank goodness, spb is back!
12:48:23 <nslater> whaa
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12:48:38 <Arnia> You're missing the psychology
12:48:51 <nslater> oh?
12:48:53 <Arnia> The point isn't that it is possible
12:49:24 <nslater> well... quite
12:49:26 <Arnia> It is that by doing it, you make people have to jump through a hoop and fully commit in their minds to doing something prohibited
12:49:41 <Arnia> Which even if it is 'easy' is a massive deterrent
12:49:46 <nslater> yes, but even on that front, I think they must be fighting a lossing battle
12:50:03 <nslater> those warnings you get at the beginning of films these days are so over top it makes me laugh
12:50:08 <nslater> .... I'm sure I'm not the only one
12:50:11 <Arnia> The sociological evidence is otherwise
12:50:32 <Arnia> Hm. There was an article by Stephen Pinker on this I posted here a few months ago...
12:50:38 <Arnia> or someone else posted
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12:51:09 <Arnia> Basically it noted that people massively alter their decisions if they have to actively do something
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12:51:28 <Arnia> The commitment to the action significantly alters their behaviour
12:51:36 <nslater> sure... makes sense
12:51:45 <Arnia> Even if it is still easy
12:51:56 <Arnia> it is just having to do something that matters
12:52:16 <Arnia> So DRM still works, it just doesn't work how you seem to expect it to
12:52:31 <Arnia> (namely making breaking it impossible)
12:52:39 <Arnia> Same goes for security systems
12:52:47 <nslater> I will concede your argument (as usual, heh) - it's an angle I had not considered before
12:53:11 <Arnia> No security system is unbreakable, because if it were then no one could use the system (using the system is breaking it for a given time)
12:53:28 <Arnia> But they're effective in that they reduce the risk
12:53:38 <Arnia> Effectiveness isn't an all-or-nothing thing
12:53:46 <nslater> sure
12:53:59 <Arnia> and mostly it is psychological, because we're dealing with humans here
12:54:20 <nslater> have you ever read kevin nitnick?
12:55:19 <Arnia> Which is why, in a nutshell, I disagree with 'broken-by-design' arguments. It is broken by the design presumed, sure, but that doesn't mean it is broken by the design of the designers. Different goals and all.
12:55:22 <Arnia> nslater: no
12:55:54 <nslater> well, that's certainly given me something to think about
12:56:15 * Arnia is a corrupting influence
12:56:18 <nslater> oh, I read his The Art of Deception a while back, was a good read I think
12:56:25 <nslater> bit of a tangent
12:56:33 * nslater appreciates being corrupted
12:58:08 <Arnia> There is a whole interesting area of research into why so many technologically minded people can only see things from the perspective of technology. I wonder if the level of bias in approach is the same as those seen by say a musician only being able to see things in terms of musical performance
12:58:40 <nslater> Arnia: it takes on a particularly ugly perspective in a corporate environment :(
12:58:57 <Arnia> If so, why it seems so much more obvious. Oh, that's probably because they have a ready communication channel to promote their positions... forget that comment :)
12:59:02 <nslater> where developers seem to have a TOTAL disconect with the business needs
12:59:31 <nslater> but that's an [off] discussion for another day, heh
13:00:00 <Arnia> nslater: it isn't just business needs though... see the argument last night. searke found it very difficult to see that pragmatics was just as relevant, if not more so, as semantics
13:00:16 <nslater> actually... second
13:00:50 <nslater> Arnia: I liked this: http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/confessions/technologist-manifesto-or-things-everyone-in-it-should-know-7715
13:00:56 <Arnia> nslater: from his perspective, a good logic is one without any chance of ambiguity. Does computer science disproportionately attract people who need absolute certainty, correctness and no dissent?
13:01:10 <nslater> yes.... from personal experience
13:01:47 <Arnia> nslater: any idea why?
13:01:51 <nslater> I was attracted to computer programming because of it's certainty, it's absoluteness, it's clear cut nature - realising this was totally false has been a long and painful journy for me
13:02:16 <Tene> Where did you get that idea from in the first place?
13:02:31 <nslater> I was a teenager, my only experience were movies and the BBC Basics my school had
13:02:53 <Tene> Which one of those did you get that idea from?
13:02:53 <Arnia> I often find it difficult to explain why evidential logics are so important, because to the person I'm explaining it to the idea that people can disagree and both be rational and correct (relative to their experience) is nonsense
13:02:53 <Monty> Er. Top Gnu Sequel?
13:03:05 <nslater> dunno, the desire for certainty seems inexorably linked to my adhd, ocd, aspergers
13:03:08 <Arnia> They want to legislate against disagreement, in effect
13:03:28 <Arnia> cf. Leibniz's universal calculators
13:03:42 <Tene> BUT WHAT ABOUT AUMANN?!?!
13:03:57 <nslater> as a kid, the world was a fascinating, but very confusing place for me (still is, heh) and I found this kind of "safe" feeling in computers, I could understand them, they seemed simple and logical
13:04:29 <nslater> so that desire for absolutes, certainty and correctness stems from that
13:04:38 <nslater> it's like a security blanket
13:05:06 <Tene> Interesting.
13:05:22 <nslater> I would not be suprised if other ass pies said similar things :)
13:06:24 <Arnia> For me the world is a complex, chaotic, glorious place to learn from and computers are a tool for helping me manage the complexity of understanding
13:06:51 <Arnia> (as well as being a beautiful example of it themselves — look at the theory of computation and particularly complexity theory)
13:07:00 <nslater> sure... from a computing angle, thats something I am learning to embrace, slowely
13:08:01 <nslater> man, if I had a website I would write an essay on this :)
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13:22:28 <Arnia> nslater: get a blogspot or wordpress account
13:22:47 * Arnia has been painfully reminded of his own website needs
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13:31:49 <nslater> Arnia: well, did I mention, I'm working on some software.....
13:32:20 <Morbus> NP: 'Toxic (Armand Van Helden Remix Edit)' from Britney Spears's album 'Greatest Hits: My Prerogative'; Rating: 4/5; http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006284JQ/disobeycom/
13:32:23 * Morbus bobs.
13:32:27 * nslater boobs
13:32:38 <nslater> Morbus: good song, the original
13:33:11 <Morbus> i sign it on signstar.
13:33:13 <Morbus> loudly.
13:33:17 * Morbus bobs some more.
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13:56:30 * Arnia bobs backwards just to confuse things a little
13:58:02 <Morbus> hrm.
13:58:11 <Morbus> i have two commands that i want to pipe into one mail message.
13:59:07 <Jibbler2> (cmd1 && cmd2) | blah
13:59:19 <Morbus> doh. obvious.
13:59:30 <nslater> brackets?
14:00:01 <Morbus> Jibbler2: thanks. fine.
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14:01:49 <Jibbler2> nslater: well yeah, otherwise it'll just run cmd1 and only pipe cmd2 to blah
14:01:53 <nslater> boo, I don't like the new facebook
14:02:11 <nslater> hmm
14:03:37 <nslater> http://www.new.facebook.com/profile.php?a=2915120374
14:07:17 *** Schroeder (i=1000@unaffiliated/unclejimbob) has joined #swhack
14:07:17 <Monty> hey Schroeder
14:08:43 <Morbus> man, i haven't done bash in forever
14:08:48 <Morbus> how do i concat to a variable, again?
14:08:55 <Morbus> I have a multiline EXPLANATION I need to write.
14:09:05 <Morbus> EXPLANATION=EXPLANATION . ""
14:09:06 <Morbus> ?
14:09:07 <nslater> $var="$var extra"
14:09:17 <nslater> or you can use EOF
14:09:28 <Morbus> EOF may work well. example?
14:09:28 <Monty> interesting. Will have added to better
14:09:41 <nslater> hmm, not sure how you do it with variables...
14:09:45 <nslater> but you can do this
14:09:48 <nslater> cat << EOF
14:09:49 <nslater> foo
14:09:51 <nslater> bar
14:09:52 <nslater> baz
14:09:53 <nslater> EOF
14:10:03 <nslater> you could wrap that up in a $()
14:10:11 <nslater> multiline=$(cat << EOF
14:10:11 <Morbus> hrm. yeah, i need to put it in a variable for passing to mail.
14:10:12 <nslater> foo
14:10:13 <nslater> bar
14:10:13 <Monty> same difficulty with mibbit widget to not into mark]
14:10:14 <nslater> )
14:10:17 <Arnia> nslater: why my profile?
14:10:24 <nslater> Arnia: yours? thats mine
14:10:35 <Arnia> Comes up as mine here...
14:10:45 <nslater> weird... it's mine, I don't even have you!
14:11:34 <nslater> Morbus: what do you intend to use the multiline variable for?
14:11:44 <nslater> Morbus: as in, the command syntax?
14:11:45 <Morbus> preface to a generated mail message.
14:11:52 <nslater> Morbus: you might be better served using a tempfile
14:11:57 <nslater> tempfile=`tempfile`
14:12:03 <nslater> cat > $tempfile << EOF
14:12:05 <nslater> stuff here
14:12:06 <nslater> EOF
14:12:10 <nslater> mail < $tempfile
14:12:25 <nslater> rm -f $tempfile
14:12:50 <nslater> yeah, that would work
14:13:12 <nslater> set up the tempfile with the header then do "cat > $tempfile < $more_stuff"
14:13:15 <nslater> erm
14:13:20 <nslater> "cat >> $tempfile < $more_stuff"
14:13:44 <Morbus> i don't have 'tempfile'
14:14:01 <nslater> os x?
14:14:07 <nslater> sec
14:14:25 <nslater> mktemp
14:14:38 <Morbus> no, some old RHEL4
14:14:45 <Morbus> mktemp works
14:14:47 <nslater> oh, there WILL be a tempfile stype utility
14:14:52 <nslater> $ apropos temp file
14:15:04 <nslater> k, not sure of the mktemp option syntax
14:15:42 <Morbus> so far so good.
14:15:46 <Morbus> hrm. wait.
14:15:48 <Morbus> no, this wont' work.
14:15:55 <Morbus> i need to make multiple tempfiles with the same header.
14:15:55 <Morbus> heh
14:15:56 <nslater> if this is just a little script for your self you could just use "/tmp/morb.is.ace" etc, tempfile is used to prevent security vulns on shared systems
14:16:02 <Morbus> ah well, it'll work well enough.
14:16:18 <nslater> with the same header hmm
14:16:19 <nslater> okay
14:16:28 <nslater> cat > /tmp/header << EOF
14:16:31 <nslater> stuff here
14:16:32 <nslater> EOF
14:16:40 <nslater> cat /tmp/header > /tmp/newmsg
14:16:48 <nslater> cat $stuff >> /tmp/newmsg
14:16:54 <nslater> mail < /tmp/newmsg
14:18:47 <Morbus> hrm. cat isn't doing newlines.
14:18:51 <Morbus> MESSAGE=$(cat << EOF
14:18:51 <Morbus> Generated by http://dev.trellon.org/users/morbus/coder_reviews/coder
14:18:51 <Morbus> For more verbose explanations, choose your module from that list.
14:18:51 <Morbus> )
14:19:12 <Morbus> is one line in the eventual message.
14:21:30 *** axod (i=56aa482f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ffabb6a7ca2e9ce0) has joined #swhack
14:21:30 <Monty> yo axod!
14:21:34 <nslater> erm
14:21:38 <nslater> you missed the EOF
14:21:49 <nslater> also, got a better idea
14:22:01 <nslater> function new_message {
14:22:07 <nslater> cat > $1 << EOF
14:22:10 <nslater> foo
14:22:11 <nslater> bar
14:22:13 <nslater> EOF
14:22:14 <nslater> }
14:22:14 <Morbus> wtf. now there's *no* newlines.
14:22:39 <nslater> then you can called new_message /foo/bar to create the message header on /foo/bar
14:22:49 <Morbus> http://feast-or-fa.mine.nu:325/~morbus/mail_reviews.txt
14:23:01 <Morbus> comes in as one gigantic string, no newlines.