00:00:27 <nsh_> mmm
00:00:44 <Arnia> I know... I find it all rather odd to be honest. The hegemony of string theory doesn't help; nor does the huge government investment in Big Science experiments predicated upon string theory and its kin
00:01:05 <nsh_> btw
00:01:13 <nsh_> you should read Goertzles comment here: http://jurvetson.blogspot.com/2004/08/quantum-computational-equivalence.html
00:01:22 <Arnia> He claims that exotic probability approaches don't require renormalisation of infintesimal paths too
00:01:30 <nsh_> [[[ Alas, my practical work trying to create a thinking machine and decode cell dynamics and so forth doesn't leave me time to do so, but I think it would be possible to create a new theory of *probabilistic reasoning* using complex-valued probabilities rather than the ordinary real-valued ones. ]]]
00:01:35 <Arnia> (which is good)
00:02:01 <nsh_> tempted to email the chap and ask what's the deal
00:02:57 <nsh_> he published another paper in 2001 on the subject
00:03:00 <nsh_> http://en.scientificcommons.org/21357076
00:03:08 <nsh_> "published" meaning uploaded
00:04:09 <Arnia> The use of other fields as the basis of probability theory isn't exactly novel
00:04:23 <nsh_> mm
00:04:40 <Arnia> Jaynes goes over bits of it IIRC
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00:05:49 <Arnia> and the only axiom of probabilities which seems to require it is the Kolmorogov axiom requiring that the probability measure sum to 1 over the whole measure space
00:06:01 <Arnia> s/it/the reals
00:06:07 <nsh_> mmm
00:06:33 <Arnia> If you allow normed algebras on the reals, then that can be replaced by a requirement that the norm of the integral over the measure space be 1
00:06:49 *** lmorchard is now known as lmorchard|away
00:06:59 <Arnia> or even weirder requirements, depending on your personal epistemological leanings
00:07:01 *** Xanthor[aw] (n=Xanthor@ALyon-257-1-70-9.w90-15.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #swhack
00:07:23 <Arnia> (that requirement only serves to capture the idea that a probability measure is 'objective' really)
00:08:59 <Arnia> What intrigues me most about Yousef's idea is that it has a beautiful symmetry in the Clifford algebras
00:09:33 <Arnia> Relativity can be described in exactly the same fashion just by having one dimension with opposite signature
00:09:43 <Arnia> (so +,-,-,-)
00:10:03 <nsh_> can you explain the symmetry?
00:10:39 <Arnia> Relativity has three fairly conventional dimensions, and then this wonderfully bizarre one called time
00:11:11 <nsh_> right
00:11:55 <Arnia> The three spatial dimensions have basis vectors which multiply like quaternions (in fact pretty much can be considered the 'same thing' as quaternions — modulo any appropriate isomorphisms)
00:12:20 <Arnia> The temporal dimension behaves like the split complex numbers
00:12:21 <nsh_> the proper interval between any two points in minkowski space is x^2 + x^2 + z^2 - t^2
00:12:30 <nsh_> *x, y, z
00:12:33 <Arnia> Indeed
00:12:56 <nsh_> (which is simply beautiful to imagine)
00:13:31 <Arnia> Now, what I realised last night was that my embers are not that distinct from the split complexes after all
00:13:50 <nsh_> embers are some kind of number you've condocted?
00:14:01 <Arnia> Evidential nuMBER
00:14:10 * Arnia took lessons from Conway on that one
00:14:43 <nsh_> ah, ok
00:14:56 <nsh_> catchy name
00:16:01 <Arnia> If I have an ember of <w+,w->, then I can write a split-complex which multiplies, adds and subtracts exactly the same way
00:16:23 <Arnia> but it has a simpler modulus and division
00:17:03 <nsh_> what are the two components w+ and w-?
00:17:34 <Arnia> Moreover, the split complexes have exponentiation defined on them using an analogue of the Euler formula (but replacing cos and sin with cosh and sinh resp and the imaginary unity with the split-complex unit)
00:17:51 <Arnia> w+ is positive evidence, w- is negative evidence (for a proposition)
00:19:09 <nsh_> oh right
00:19:28 <nsh_> damn, i need to reread the split-complex numbers
00:19:28 * Arnia realises it is unlikely that anyone in that thread would raise Kolmorogov complexity and closes the tab
00:20:16 * nsh_ smiles
00:20:49 <Arnia> The split-complexes, being a Clifford algebra of a very simple sort and being useful in the representation of proper time, are much better studied than my embers ever would be
00:21:02 <nsh_> so, split complex numbers are complex numbers that respect the minkowski norm (x^2 - y^2) in multiplication rather than the euclidean norm (x^2 + y^2)
00:21:36 <nsh_> hence the hyperbolic functions in the exponentiation
00:21:53 <Arnia> and whilst the embers are still important — it is very difficult to argue for the intuition for the use of split-complexes without going through the route of matrix representations of the embers — they can be practically replaced with split-complexes
00:22:02 <Arnia> nsh_: yep
00:22:51 <nsh_> ok
00:22:52 <Arnia> Let w = w+ + w- (the total evidence regarding a proposition)
00:23:55 <nsh_> (remember this was leading into something about the symmetry between +,-,-,- relativity geometry and QM as complex probability theory)
00:24:06 <Arnia> The split complex equivalent of <w+, w-> is then [1/2(w + w+), 1/2w-]
00:24:48 <Arnia> nsh_: well, the symmetry is in the formalism. The idea that relativity and QM differ mainly because of that little signature
00:25:33 <nsh_> ah, ok
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00:26:32 <Arnia> The problem I see with attempts to integrate QM with GR is that they're written in utterly different languages
00:26:49 <Arnia> and the language of one, doesn't suit the description of the other
00:27:19 * nsh_ nods
00:27:36 <Arnia> I'm going to read some of the papers on geometric algebra and physics to see how good the prospects are that this will act as a lingua franca for mathematical physics
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00:28:09 <nsh_> perhaps the esperanto of lolcats
00:28:26 <Arnia> or polecats
00:28:30 * nsh_ smiles
00:28:52 <nsh_> there was a thing at some point
00:29:15 <nsh_> about doing science in that tri-logical language from the andes
00:29:21 <nsh_> the name of which i always forger
00:29:23 <nsh_> amaya
00:29:27 <nsh_> maybe
00:30:14 <nsh_> aymara
00:30:51 <nsh_> *ternary logic
00:31:40 <nsh_> anyway, read that novella when you get a spare hour or so, Arnia.
00:31:48 <nsh_> (that i emailed you)
00:34:10 <nsh_> damn, seamonkey crashed
00:34:20 * nsh_ needs to sort out his box
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00:36:14 <Arnia> Will do
00:36:27 <Arnia> I'm sceptical of approaches that use countable truth values
00:37:25 * nsh_ is skeptical of approaches that use truth
00:37:27 <nsh_> :-)
00:37:39 <Arnia> Define 'truth'. I use it as a term of art.
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00:38:06 <Arnia> Not in the objectivist or realist senses
00:38:12 <nsh_> we've done this and it wasn't too productive
00:38:35 <nsh_> my basic qualm was that truth implies a dualism between truth and falsity (no matter how many "in-between"s)
00:38:41 <Arnia> I know... but I feel you misunderstand my use of the term. A truth value need not have any meaning independent of a particular observer
00:38:44 <nsh_> which is degenerate to true multivalue
00:38:45 <[bjoern]> phenny, tell sbp I posted http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Apr/0001.html - let's see if anyone picks it up...
00:38:45 <phenny> [bjoern]: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
00:38:58 <nsh_> ok, then it's probably semantics
00:38:58 <Arnia> nsh_: only if your truth values are drawn from R
00:39:05 <nsh_> how do you mean?
00:39:20 <Arnia> Well, let us draw our truth values from C instead
00:39:37 <nsh_> ok
00:39:55 <nsh_> but you're going to prove theorems about your system that draws truth values from C, right?
00:40:13 <nsh_> so you're still using boolean logic to create a system of purports to transcend it
00:40:37 <Arnia> And there is absolutely nothing, in any way shape or form, wrong with that
00:40:46 <nsh_> *that purports
00:40:54 <nsh_> well, that's where we differ :-)
00:41:12 <nsh_> i want to move past dualism definitively
00:41:15 <nsh_> ab initio
00:41:34 <Arnia> I think that is wrongheaded. It misses the point about what semantics is
00:41:44 <nsh_> how do you mean?
00:42:12 <Arnia> There isn't a perfect semantic system for all modelling situations
00:42:19 <Arnia> Different semantics suit different domains
00:42:38 <nsh_> i'm not sure what you mean by a semantic system
00:42:56 <Arnia> Maths happens to suit Boolean semantics very well, and you do NOT bake in Boolean truth if you construct a more nuanced semantics using mathematical formalisms
00:43:27 <Arnia> A semantic system is a way of assigning 'truth valuations' to propositions in some language (where the language need not be even countable)
00:44:29 <nsh_> but you don't know the limitations of a system until you escape them. people took it for granted that euclidean geometry was the only one possible...
00:44:48 <nsh_> this is just reaching further down the bough of the tree
00:44:52 <nsh_> to the roots.
00:45:37 <nsh_> there could be more in heaven and earth than are dreampt of in our boolean-rooted philosophy, horatio
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00:46:02 <nsh_> or there might not. but you can't say from within that construct
00:46:43 <Arnia> nsh_: that's trying to have your cake and eat it
00:47:01 <nsh_> in what respect?
00:47:10 <Arnia> nsh_: on the one hand, you want to eliminate objectivity, yet you also won't accept constructs which are relativist
00:47:23 <nsh_> i'm not sure i follow
00:47:46 <Arnia> nsh_: I am limited by my conception, my experience. All I can do is reach 'down the tree' and try and build things out of my world view.
00:47:56 <Arnia> nsh_: that is all *anyone* including yourself can do
00:48:12 <nsh_> perhaps
00:48:54 <nsh_> but if one can deconstruct the world-view to such a degree that there is no longer one, then one is no longer bound by ones limitations
00:49:09 <Arnia> nsh_: so why are you so scathing of anyone trying to do that? You reject these ideas on the grounds that they are grounded, embodied, yet you rail against the idea of objective truth with the same breath. And never, ever, have I heard you suggest an alternative methodology.
00:49:16 <Arnia> nsh_: that's a crock of shit :)
00:49:28 <nsh_> allow me to recant then :-)
00:50:08 <Arnia> nsh_: we're always bound by our world view, no matter what we do. The world view may shift, may twist and turn, but it is always there. It is our frame and it defines our every thought
00:50:52 <Arnia> nsh_: you can't deconstruct it out of existence, you can only reconstruct it into another form... maybe one you can't yourself see. I think getting to that point is dangerous, because that is exactly where Enlightenment realism started.
00:51:17 <Arnia> It is better to know the frame of your world view, than to be slave to a frame you can never perceive
00:51:24 <nsh_> well, there's a non-orientability to that: to presuppose that we cannot deconstruct completely our world-view is to assume that objectively external to our world-view there exists and immutable "I" which immutably has such a world-view
00:51:39 <nsh_> *an
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00:51:41 <Monty2> hi shepazu
00:52:24 <nsh_> it's akin to thinking that outside the confines of the universe inside ones skull there is ones skull and outside of that the universe, ad infinitum
00:52:28 <Arnia> nsh_: that's misunderstanding what I'm arguing. The world view is the "I"
00:52:38 <nsh_> mmm
00:52:52 <Arnia> The flowery prose notwithstanding
00:53:24 <Arnia> But I believe that it is better to have the I in sight rather than be under the delusion that one has become none
00:53:36 <nsh_> but they are not exhaustive options
00:53:52 <nsh_> why might it not be possible to reduce the I-view completely?
00:54:11 <Arnia> Oh I can do that for you if you like
00:54:16 * nsh_ smiles
00:54:16 <Arnia> I'll get a hitman booke
00:54:17 <Arnia> d
00:54:22 <nsh_> quite
00:54:52 <nsh_> but anyway, thoroughly derailed
00:55:38 <Arnia> I'm curious to know what I've recently read that made my prose style go like that...
00:56:39 <nsh_> oh, i missed completely your post mentioning enlightenment realism
00:57:19 <nsh_> it's an interesting question (what triggers different styles of prose)
00:57:37 <Arnia> I pick up writing styles from people I've read recently
00:57:46 <nsh_> if they ever get the technology to transcribe internal monologues continually without it being a distraction
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00:57:56 <nsh_> there would be some fascinating corpora
00:58:02 <nsh_> for linguistic analysis
00:58:22 <nsh_> obviously there are loads of reasons why this wouldn't work though..
01:00:18 <Arnia> loggy, pointer
01:00:18 <loggy> http://swhack.com/logs/2009-04-02#T01-00-18
01:00:33 <Arnia> phenny: tell sbp http://swhack.com/logs/2009-04-02#T01-00-18 and back
01:00:33 <phenny> Arnia: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
01:01:38 * nsh_ bbiab restart and config
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01:32:31 <clsn> http://www.botanicalls.com/kits/ : So your plants can twitter when they need water,.
01:33:09 <[bjoern]> is there a good way to @stfu @twitter?
01:33:34 <[bjoern]> .swhack (.)(.)
01:33:34 <phenny> [bjoern]: http://swhack.com/logs/2009-03-14#T23-54-39
01:33:52 <[bjoern]> .swhack \(\.\)\(\.\)
01:33:54 <phenny> [bjoern]: http://swhack.com/logs/2008-09-21#T00-29-10
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01:38:40 <[bjoern]> .c 0b111111111 in decimal
01:38:41 <phenny> 0b111111111 = 511
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01:46:30 <Monty2> Thank goodness, [1]jeanniecool is back!
01:46:46 <[bjoern]> Monty2: tell Monty UNPOSSIBLE
01:46:46 <Monty2> That is interesting. Please continue.
01:46:55 <[bjoern]> tell Monty UNPOSSIBLE
01:46:56 <Monty2> obviously there
01:47:01 <[bjoern]> hmm
01:47:12 <[bjoern]> Monty2: lick my pirates.
01:47:12 <Monty2> Your pirates ?
01:47:17 <[bjoern]> Monty2: yes.
01:47:22 <Monty2> see if presented with chunked-mode, perhaps make that updates the route of in france, and our wiki?
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01:47:31 <[bjoern]> Monty2: no.
01:47:34 <Monty2> explanation's someha scratches terrifying ships.
01:47:46 <[bjoern]> Monty2: yes.
01:47:50 <Monty2> nope, I pasted, being deaf... and ask what's your email, Arnia?
01:51:13 <clsn> phenny: tell Arnia the WP page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_algebra is, as usual, detailed and comprehensive... and utterly useless in trying to learn anything about it.
01:51:13 <phenny> clsn: I'll pass that on when Arnia is around.
01:54:51 <[bjoern]> did /. use to include every bad apr joke?
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02:15:35 <[bjoern]> Monty: what do you do with half a ton of mad hairy cow?
02:15:35 <Monty2> mmmm
02:15:46 <[bjoern]> Monty: other than that?
02:15:48 <Monty2> pft, i appologise to hardware
02:16:20 <[bjoern]> Monty: before, after, or the moment it is failing?
02:16:22 <Monty2> after compaction, it done to frenchtek
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03:01:41 <jeanniecool> Thanks, Monty2 - nice to see you, too.
03:01:43 <Monty2> ongoing excessiveness kisses epigraphic kids.
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03:57:35 <Monty2> yo jeffarch!
03:57:37 <Monty2> Thank goodness, paulproteus is back!
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05:17:09 <Monty2> But what does The_Pot have to do with the price of fish?
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05:56:50 <Monty2> Speak of the devil, it's pierpa!
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07:25:12 <cre8radix> heya
07:27:12 <_ulises> yo cre8radix
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07:40:56 <cre8radix> _ulises: :D
07:43:15 <_ulises> grr
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08:00:26 <cre8radix> _ulises: didn't you get my friend request?
08:00:40 <_ulises> cre8radix: I was about to say, I never did :O
08:01:02 <cre8radix> name again?
08:01:07 <_ulises> Aristo Constabular
08:02:48 <cre8radix> _ulises: it says "Friend Requested"
08:02:55 <_ulises> strange
08:02:57 <cre8radix> my name's bruder
08:02:59 <_ulises> lemme check again
08:03:55 <_ulises> Danny?
08:04:13 <cre8radix> yeah
08:04:24 <_ulises> stupid FB, when I searched for you it gave me the option to confirm you as friend
08:04:30 <_ulises> but I never got a notification of any sort
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08:05:28 <cre8radix> pft
08:05:37 <cre8radix> they all suck
08:06:28 <cre8radix> youoobmyassfacebitch
08:06:31 <cre8radix> ;P
08:06:36 <_ulises> this might brighten your day though: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3427/3403264801_cf090fae7e_o.jpg
08:07:46 <cre8radix> :D
08:08:03 <cre8radix> let's kill husbands
08:08:07 <_ulises> heh
08:08:22 <_ulises> the war of the roses would've also been appropriate in that ad
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08:13:17 <cre8radix> yeah
08:13:19 <cre8radix> true
08:13:21 <cre8radix> so
08:13:27 <cre8radix> welcome to my crew!
08:13:46 <cre8radix> (that stoopid pirate shit is giving me the shivers)
08:14:00 <cre8radix> i'm actually playing that bull
08:14:07 <cre8radix> i never play games
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08:18:45 <_ulises> heh, same here and I just came across yet another game I'm not supposed to play
08:19:12 <_ulises> via Morbus: http://legendsofzork.com/
08:27:43 <cre8radix> izzit fun?
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08:28:53 <_ulises> so far so good :0
08:28:58 <_ulises> :)
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08:34:31 <Monty2> hi JimJibber
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08:51:34 <Monty2> But what does The_Pot_ have to do with the price of fish?
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08:57:20 <cre8radix> "Ye get keelhauled in the fight, losing 6 experience points."
08:57:26 <cre8radix> fucccer
09:06:17 <sbp> yo
09:06:17 <phenny> sbp: 00:38Z <[bjoern]> tell sbp I posted http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Apr/0001.html - let's see if anyone picks it up...
09:06:18 <phenny> sbp: 00:47Z <Morbus> tell sbp http://legendsofzork.com just launched
09:06:20 <phenny> sbp: 01:00Z <Arnia> tell sbp http://swhack.com/logs/2009-04-02#T01-00-18 and back
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09:11:21 <sbp> 1 GB / s!
09:12:21 <sbp> "most of them are rather scary" - hehe
09:13:58 <_ulises> yo sbp
09:18:54 <sbp> 'ello _ulises
09:19:08 <_ulises> feeling charitable today?
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09:30:56 *** sbp changed the topic to: "http://caledonianchallenge.com/donate/Matambritos - Sponsor the Ulises!"
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11:01:54 <sbp> [[[
11:01:55 <sbp> While most other major religions lost ground, Wiccan -- whose members, Wiccans, sometimes refer to themselves as witches -- and other so-called "New Religious movements" grew by more than a million members since the last ARIS survey was published in 2001. They're now an estimated 1.2 percent of the adult population.
11:02:00 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.suntimes.com/lifestyles/religion/1501781,CST-NWS-witch30.article
11:02:55 <sbp> ah!
11:03:04 <sbp> remember the woman in Cardiff on street view?
11:03:05 <sbp> [[[
11:03:06 <sbp> Google’s Laura Scott told the Echo: “The mystery has been revealed.
11:03:06 <sbp> “We dressed up a real person in a Mary Poppins costume and she was photographed by the car as it went past.
11:03:06 <sbp> “We’re always looking for fun stuff to include in our products – and well done for spotting her.”
11:03:12 <sbp> ]]] - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009/03/26/google-s-ghostly-mary-poppins-mystery-solved-91466-23235039/
11:03:15 <sbp> Google planted her
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11:26:44 <[bjoern]> dark1(u there)
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11:30:16 <dark1> me?
11:30:28 <[bjoern]> dark1(perhaps)
11:35:15 <sbp> hai 2u dark1
11:35:31 <sbp> dark1(u being around is lvl 3)
11:35:36 <sbp> pls u pay to duckslot
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11:37:26 <sbp> dark1: is this u?? http://www.romancescam.com/blog/blog-bid-2370
11:37:31 * [bjoern] ponders updating HTML Tidy so it handles element names et al. in XML documents according to the latest XML 1.0 edition...
11:37:46 <[bjoern]> they sneaked in lots of additional characters there...
11:37:56 <sbp> [bjoern]: such as what? ㋡?
11:38:53 <[bjoern]> .u ㋡
11:38:53 <phenny> U+32E1 CIRCLED KATAKANA TU (㋡)
11:39:21 <[bjoern]> yes, actually that was not but is now allowed
11:39:39 <[bjoern]> <㋡/>
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11:53:25 <sbp> aw yeah
11:53:37 <sbp> <㋡ ㋡="㋡"/>
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11:56:57 <[bjoern]> <?冗?>
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12:13:53 <sbp> bet encoding names have to be in us-ascii?
12:13:59 <sbp> that would be quite funny otherwise
12:14:11 <sbp> you'd need to specify the encoding of the encoding name
12:14:24 <[bjoern]> with a more limited set of allowed characters than the iana registry allows for, yes
12:15:07 <[bjoern]> oh if you mean at the byte level, then no
12:15:11 <[bjoern]> consider UTF-16
12:15:38 <sbp> nah, I meant in the registry
12:16:17 <sbp> I was going to propose encoding="㋡"
12:16:53 <sbp> and was vaguely alluding to the hypocrisy of not extending i18n everywhere
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13:08:28 <MoiraA> sbp, are you there?
13:08:35 <MoiraA> [bjoern]?
13:08:48 <MoiraA> anyone?
13:08:58 <MoiraA> Jibbler?
13:10:40 <JimJibber> I can be an anyone!
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13:11:12 <Monty2> But what does shepazu have to do with the price of fish?
13:11:12 <MoiraA> aaaah fantastic
13:11:18 <MoiraA> can you solve this:
13:11:20 <MoiraA> 0.5 = 2.1701 x (2/sqrt(X))
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13:13:28 <JibberJim> x=(2/(0.5/2.1701))^2
13:13:40 <MoiraA> oooooh fantastic!
13:13:42 <JibberJim> which appears to be +/- 75.3493442
13:13:45 <MoiraA> thanks JibberJim
13:13:50 <JibberJim> but I could be useless :) it's been awhile :)
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13:14:09 <MoiraA> no, youve been a massive help
13:14:11 <MoiraA> thanks
13:16:22 <MoiraA> JibberJim, this guy who was stuck was very grateful
13:16:33 <MoiraA> he needs an answer higher than 76 though
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13:18:24 <JibberJim> that suggests I screwed something up
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13:19:06 <MoiraA> no, he seems happy, anyway I suggested he came here
13:19:16 <MoiraA> I made sure I didn't take the credit for this :)
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13:20:03 <MoiraA> what he said is
13:20:07 <MoiraA> ah here he is!
13:20:14 <MoiraA> JibberJim, meet bassgoon
13:20:22 <bassgoon> >.< i said i'm good
13:20:24 <bassgoon> sheesh
13:20:26 <MoiraA> JibberJim was the brains behind my answer bassgoon
13:20:39 <MoiraA> yeah but you said this
13:20:40 <MoiraA> [14:18] <bassgoon> MoiraA, it's a stat problem, and .5 is our maximum margin of error
13:20:41 <MoiraA> [14:18] <bassgoon> x is sample size
13:20:41 <MoiraA> [14:18] <bassgoon> 2 is standard deviation and 2.1701 is the Z value
13:21:10 <bassgoon> yes, because I know what I'm doing >.<
13:21:13 <bassgoon> that's why I said that
13:21:46 <JibberJim> you're liable to get far away from my dimly remembered maths
13:22:20 <MoiraA> bassgoon, as I said, I'm sorry if I came across as insulting
13:22:32 <bassgoon> like i said MoiraA I just needed to make sure I had the algebra right
13:22:35 <MoiraA> I just thought you'd enjoy talking to equally expert mathematicians
13:23:18 <bassgoon> buahaha
13:23:21 <MoiraA> I remember my daughter's abstract algebra she came home from her first term at Oxford with
13:23:22 <bassgoon> i know crap about math
13:23:29 <MoiraA> it was so abstract it was off the planet
13:23:34 <bassgoon> i took calc for noobs and cheated by using a calculator on the tests
13:23:43 <bassgoon> ti-89 saved my life
13:24:11 <MoiraA> :)
13:24:18 <MoiraA> you still know your stuff
13:24:30 <MoiraA> I find maths fascinating, but I wish I was more gifted at it
13:25:20 <sbp> yo bassgoon
13:25:34 <MoiraA> hi sbp
13:25:39 <sbp> yo MoiraA
13:25:52 <bassgoon> sbp, where do I know you from
13:26:14 <MoiraA> I think I made bassgoon a bit defensive, because I realize I worded my remarks as though I considered him a total n00b
13:26:29 <bassgoon> lol no i'm just frustrated
13:26:33 <MoiraA> sbp has written and had about 12 books published
13:26:35 <_ulises> yo
13:26:38 <MoiraA> perhaps you read one?
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13:27:06 <bassgoon> no it's some chan i used to hang out in
13:27:41 <sbp> bassgoon: what channels do you hang out in?
13:27:59 <sbp> (or did you used to hang out in...)
13:28:04 <bassgoon> atm ##socialites ##windows and #defocus
13:28:06 <sbp> I'd list the ones I've been in, but we'll he here all day
13:28:11 <sbp> *be here
13:28:40 <sbp> maybe you've seen me on #freenode on one of the rare occasions I've visited?
13:28:45 <bassgoon> did you used to hang out in otw?
13:28:46 <sbp> or, more than likely, you're confusing me with spb
13:28:52 <sbp> nope, I don't know what otw is
13:28:57 <bassgoon> OH
13:28:58 <bassgoon> you're right
13:28:59 <bassgoon> lmao
13:29:04 <bassgoon> I am SO out of it today
13:29:11 <sbp> spb is here too, incidentally
13:29:26 <sbp> sometimes I get his messages. sometimes he gets mine
13:29:33 <sbp> not sure which direction is most blackmail worthy
13:29:39 <sbp> so we tend to just keep it quiet
13:30:16 <MoiraA> phone bvr
13:30:23 <MoiraA> bah, aol
13:30:34 <MoiraA> hehe sbp
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13:31:50 <bassgoon> guh i need a summer job
13:32:48 <bassgoon> it's been a long time since i didn't have work lined up for summer this late in the year
13:33:22 <sbp> yo [nsh]
13:33:35 <MoiraA> hi [nsh]
13:34:07 <MoiraA> bassgoon: sbp is one person I'm glad the internet allowed me to cross paths with
13:34:14 <MoiraA> not something I say about many people
13:34:17 <bassgoon> HA
13:34:25 <bassgoon> eer caps on sorry
13:34:29 <MoiraA> he's awesome
13:34:38 <bassgoon> the last 4 girls i dated i met online...
13:34:48 <MoiraA> 4?
13:36:08 <bassgoon> Yyeah...
13:36:22 <bassgoon> since november of 07
13:36:31 <bassgoon> which is crazy for me
13:36:32 <MoiraA> popular guy you must be!
13:36:38 <bassgoon> cause before that i dated 2 girls...both for 2 years
13:37:23 <bassgoon> well, i got a lot of things going for me, like i'm fairly smart, i attempt to be funny a lot, and I'm the kind of ass hole that many girls seem to be attracted to
13:37:54 <bassgoon> and as far as I can tell...there are other certain areas I don't...let them down >.<
13:38:09 <sbp> your cock, right? the way you drive your cock into them?
13:38:15 <sbp> am I right? am I right? eh? my friend? eh?
13:38:17 <sbp> am I right?
13:38:18 <sbp> eh?
13:38:20 * MoiraA puzzles over what bassgoon could *possibly* mean
13:38:22 <bassgoon> well
13:38:27 <sbp> hehe
13:38:45 <MoiraA> you describe sbp when you describe yourself
13:39:05 <MoiraA> smart, funny and the kind of lovable asshole
13:39:13 <sbp> oh, I remember where I got the "my friend" meme from
13:39:15 <MoiraA> I don't know about the "other areas" mind
13:39:24 <sbp> Father Ted, of course. that Cuban priest who comes to stay
13:39:34 <sbp> that was a great episode
13:39:45 <sbp> Passion of St. Tibulus, I recall
13:40:17 <bassgoon> frankly, I've never met a girl who can satisfied solely by 'normal' sex
13:40:36 * MoiraA is getting embarrassed
13:40:46 <MoiraA> this isn't an xxx channel :)
13:41:02 <MoiraA> = female
13:41:30 <bassgoon> i don't think this is XXX material
13:41:34 <bassgoon> pg-13, R at best
13:41:51 <bassgoon> what's to be embarrased about? are you 16 or something?
13:42:37 <bassgoon> hint: if it weren't for sex, there wouldn't be people...what's the big deal??
13:43:02 <MoiraA> heh, chill
13:43:10 <MoiraA> I wasn't being serious
13:43:13 <bassgoon> >.<
13:43:17 <bassgoon> on which level
13:43:17 <MoiraA> and no, I'm 51 actually
13:43:22 <bassgoon> well!
13:43:22 <sbp> yeah, FUCKING CHILL YOU MOTHERFUCKER
13:43:27 <sbp> AAAAAAAAh. CALM THE SHIT DOWN
13:43:30 <bassgoon> lmao
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13:43:49 <bassgoon> in essence...I'm a slut
13:43:54 <[bjoern]> I would have bought SGI for 25 million USD too. What's that in real money anyway?
13:44:03 <sbp> [bjoern]: two cockerels
13:44:05 <[bjoern]> pix plz bassgoon
13:44:14 <bassgoon> my friend says I'm a man-slut, but I think the distinction is lame
13:44:18 <bassgoon> >.<
13:44:21 <bassgoon> right..
13:44:33 <sbp> androslut
13:44:55 <[bjoern]> .gc dataslut
13:44:55 <phenny> dataslut: 205
13:45:00 <bassgoon> one girl i dated had an internet exhibitionist streak
13:45:11 <MoiraA> sounds a bit like me
13:45:16 <[bjoern]> s/^/the/
13:45:23 <bassgoon> i discovered she dedicated a nice vid of herself to her long distance ex 3 days before she broke up with me..
13:45:39 <MoiraA> sucks :(
13:45:46 <[bjoern]> (gur nobir vf vagrearg pbqr gb znxr h ybbx fgbbcvq)
13:45:48 <bassgoon> which frankly wouldn't have bothered me other than all the other factors around the situation
13:46:01 <[bjoern]> pix or ur no slut
13:46:10 <bassgoon> like how we only dated for a month...february...and she had been made fun of for being a virgin...which I cured her of...
13:46:30 <bassgoon> [bjoern], wtf are you talking about
13:46:39 <[bjoern]> Yes.
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13:46:44 <bassgoon> do you really want pics of a fat guy that sleeps around a lot?
13:46:59 <[bjoern]> Mein englisch is not very good.
13:46:59 <Monty2> yeah.
13:47:16 <MoiraA> yes bassgoon!
13:47:21 <bassgoon> >.<
13:47:42 <bassgoon> prepare to lol
13:47:42 <bassgoon> http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1193/34/1/16908022/n16908022_38481357_7582.jpg
13:48:21 <MoiraA> cool
13:48:27 <MoiraA> that's ok
13:48:31 <bassgoon> 50 points if you can name the instrument
13:48:44 <[bjoern]> testicle drum.
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13:49:04 <MoiraA> hmm, can't see much of it
13:49:07 <MoiraA> bassoon?
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13:49:10 <bassgoon> close
13:49:27 <MoiraA> I have qualifications in music :)
13:49:39 <bassgoon> think Nicaraguans
13:49:45 <bassgoon> famous group of Nicaraguans
13:50:13 <bassgoon> Reagan era...
13:51:37 <MoiraA> don't think I know any ....
13:51:42 <MoiraA> google isn't helping
13:52:18 <bassgoon> contrabassoon
13:52:32 <MoiraA> ah
13:52:40 <MoiraA> well bassoon was a reasonable guess
13:52:45 <bassgoon> indeed
13:52:52 <bassgoon> contrabassoon is an octave lower
13:52:58 <bassgoon> freaking beast of an instrument
13:54:27 <MoiraA> is that not the same as the double bassoon?
13:54:37 <bassgoon> it is
13:54:40 <MoiraA> which is an octave lower
13:54:49 <MoiraA> well! I'd have recognised that name
13:54:52 <bassgoon> double bassoon, contrabassoon, kontrafaggotti
13:55:22 <MoiraA> you must be familiar with the bass and tenor clefs then?
13:55:44 <bassgoon> I'm sorry controfagotto
13:55:46 <bassgoon> yes
13:55:55 <bassgoon> kontrafagott :p
13:55:59 <bassgoon> italian and german
13:56:14 <bassgoon> contrebasson in french
13:56:42 <bassgoon> Контрафагот in russian :p
13:57:10 <bassgoon> suprisingly important to know at least the german and italian
13:57:59 <MoiraA> definitely!
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14:54:41 <[bjoern]> remind me in 20 minutes to !
14:54:41 <Monty2> [bjoern]: Okay, I'll remind you about that on Thu Apr 02 16:14:38 BST 2009
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14:57:22 <[bjoern]> .wik Larrabee
14:57:23 <phenny> "Charles H. Larrabee (1820-1883), a U.S. congressman" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee
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15:14:53 <Monty2> [bjoern]: You asked me to remind you to !
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16:38:30 <Monty2> hi cre8radix, how ya doing?
16:38:55 <cre8radix> Monty2: i'm fine... how' YOUR MAMA!?
16:38:57 <Monty2> Good morning/afternoon...
16:39:12 <cre8radix> and bad evening, ey, monty2?
16:39:13 <Monty2> portaloos == castration;
16:39:17 <cre8radix> lol
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17:55:26 <MoiraA> what happened to Monty1?
17:55:29 <Monty2> nslater, sbp: I tried, a ridiculous default.
18:04:22 <clsn> To ponder: Isn't your head SUPPOSED to be over your heels?
18:04:22 <phenny> clsn: 14:41Z <Arnia> tell clsn that I tried, a year and half ago, to read that page and it didn't explain anything to me. I read the primer on GA the night before last and I got it in ten minutes. WP should employ mathematical sub-editors.
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18:40:36 <[bjoern]> .u cancel tag
18:40:37 <phenny> [bjoern]: Sorry, no results for 'cancel tag'.
18:40:38 <[bjoern]> .cp cancel tag
18:40:39 <phenny> [bjoern]: .cp has been replaced by .u
18:40:45 <[bjoern]> .pc cancel tag
18:40:45 <phenny> [bjoern]: .pc has been replaced by .u
18:40:45 <Monty2> "you"
18:41:01 <[bjoern]> .codepoint cancel tag
18:41:01 <phenny> E007F: CANCEL TAG
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18:43:51 <Monty2> yo d3llboy_!
18:55:28 <sbp> ooh, a thing about the Severn tidal bore on the telly
19:03:29 <[bjoern]> c printf magic to print two unsigned 16 bit ints in hex?
19:03:29 <Monty2> UAs will screw you feel free position' value when clsn that sleeps around for mixing lowercase with farmers which video?
19:03:48 *** [bjoern] changed the topic to: "UAs will screw you feel free position"
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19:12:21 <[bjoern]> so adapted my code to make a utf8 to utf16 transcoder
19:13:00 <[bjoern]> had to jiggle the automaton a bit so I don't have to have a codepoint > 0xFFFF comparison
19:14:08 <[bjoern]> also prettied the tables a bit by sorting char classes...
19:34:44 <procto> clsn: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/head_over_heels
19:34:55 <procto> clsn: no references, but makes sense to me
19:35:01 <clsn> OK...
19:36:52 <procto> .ety head
19:36:53 <phenny> "O.E. heafod 'top of the body,' also 'upper end of a slope,' also 'chief person, leader, ruler,' from P.Gmc. *khaubuthan (cf. O.S. hobid, O.N. hofuð, O.Fris. haved, Ger. Haupt, Goth. haubiþ 'head'), from PIE *kauput- 'head' (cf. Skt. kaput-, L. caput 'head'), also [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=head
19:37:01 <procto> poo truncated
19:37:51 <procto> clsn: source dor that claim of reversal is Ernest Weekley
19:38:03 <clsn> hrumph.
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20:18:40 <sbp> http://reprobate.se/pics/animated/thief.gif
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20:28:47 <[bjoern]> .bytes €
20:28:47 <phenny> [bjoern]: '\xe2\x82\xac'
20:31:18 <sbp> whoo, the daily eurobytening
20:32:11 <[bjoern]> I know the code but the utf-8 ... I only know important sequences like ed9fbf and f48fbfbf
20:33:23 <[bjoern]> Still quite curious how my code compares to say http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/intl/uconv/src/nsUTF8ToUnicode.cpp
20:33:48 <[bjoern]> not curious enough though to actually code code that would compare them
20:34:13 <[bjoern]> also hard as its kinda important what else is going on in the process
20:34:24 <[bjoern]> like what you do in addition to decoding with the results
20:34:34 <sbp> I recognise some sequences but don't remember them
20:34:36 <sbp> especially this one:
20:34:41 <sbp> .bytes —
20:34:41 <phenny> sbp: '\xe2\x80\x94'
20:34:59 <sbp> actually, I don't recognise that one
20:35:00 <[bjoern]> the dreaded long dong.
20:35:07 <sbp> bwahaha
20:35:09 <sbp> yeah
20:35:18 <sbp> oh, what you said earlier was flipping hilarious by the way
20:35:25 <sbp> the testicle drum era comments
20:35:29 <sbp> didn't want to say anything at the time
20:35:34 <sbp> since I figured it'd ruin the humour
20:35:44 <sbp> so I thought I'd save it up and ruin the humour later on
20:35:46 <sbp> i.e. now
20:35:52 <[bjoern]> I hadn't actually clicked the pix
20:36:01 <sbp> ehheh, awesome
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20:50:19 <MoiraA> lol sbp that's a good gif you posted earlier!
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20:54:25 <sbp> yeah, wonder where that was
20:56:15 <clsn> sbp: I think I have discovered (independently, as I'm certain hundreds of programmers have done the same) an elegant piece of Python:
20:56:52 <clsn> Given variables x and y. They might have different values, or the same; but if either one is set to None (or any false value) I want it to take on the value of the other.
20:56:53 <sbp> bet it's not as elegant as // in perl6
20:57:04 <clsn> (x,y)=(x or y, y or x)
20:57:25 <sbp> yeah. not sure that comes up very often. heh
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20:57:35 <clsn> I'm not up on perl6 yet.
20:57:36 <sbp> x = x or y does sorta happen a lot
20:57:47 <sbp> but x,y xory yorx is kinda odd
20:57:54 <clsn> It happened that I needed it, which is how it came up.
20:57:59 <sbp> aye
20:58:14 <sbp> one of the nice things about python is that it shortcuts
20:58:23 <sbp> or whatever the proper technical name for it is
20:58:24 <sbp> so...
20:58:27 <sbp> if you do this:
20:58:30 <sbp> x() or y()
20:58:31 <clsn> Yes, I *definitely* rely on the shortcircuiting feature.
20:58:35 <sbp> and x() is true, it won't evalu... right
20:58:39 <clsn> Most decent programming languages do that.
20:58:42 <sbp> oh right, shortcircuiting
20:58:48 <sbp> sure, but python does it best
20:58:56 <clsn> To the extent that if it doesn't, you better make sure I know it.
20:59:04 <sbp> heh, heh
20:59:33 <clsn> C's bitwise & and |, naturally, do not.
20:59:55 <[bjoern]> okay ported http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/xpcom/string/src/nsReadableUtils.cpp#544 to work outside mozilla... just does validation, but good start...
21:00:15 <clsn> Perl uses shortcircuiting frequently in place of if statements. Other languages can do that; I don't see it as often except in Perl and maybe sh.
21:00:32 <clsn> open "file","w" or die "Waaah, couldn't open the file!!!";
21:00:49 <Arnia> procto: http://modelingnts.la.asu.edu/pdf/ZBW_I_QM.pdf
21:00:52 <sbp> you don't have to do that anymore
21:00:58 <sbp> open in perl6 fails with an error
21:01:30 <clsn> I'm sure there are other cases where you'd do it though.
21:01:34 * bancus does that kinda stuff in ruby.
21:01:37 <clsn> If you're not necessarily dying, frinstance.
21:01:50 <bancus> Also fun stuff like "this unless that"
21:02:05 <clsn> I have the perl6 docs open on my browser somewhere; I need to grok them better.
21:02:15 <bancus> Speaking of Perl, I'm trying to use Net::SNMP and having what appear to be basic perl problems.
21:02:21 <clsn> Yeah, perl's "unless" statement, and its postfix modifiers, make for cool reading.
21:02:36 <clsn> (if ruby does that as well I don't know about it)
21:02:53 <bancus> A tutorial mentions to use "new SNMP::Session", but perl is bitching and saying that maybe I forgot to import the module SNMP::Session)
21:02:58 <bancus> clsn: Ruby does.
21:03:03 <bancus> postfix if and unless
21:03:05 <clsn> ....and now I do know about it.
21:03:08 <bancus> Probably others.
21:03:18 <clsn> Does it do postfix while and until like perl also?
21:03:47 <bancus> I think so.
21:03:50 <bancus> Haven't used them.
21:04:01 <bancus> lisppaste2: pointer?
21:04:06 <bancus> lisppaste2: help?
21:04:06 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
21:04:47 <sbp> lisppaste2: url?
21:04:48 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
21:04:48 <lisppaste2> bancus pasted "Net::SNMP attempt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77950
21:05:06 <sbp> #!/usr/bin/perl
21:05:06 <sbp> #!/usr/bin/perl
21:05:06 <sbp> ?
21:05:16 <bancus> A mistake in pasting.
21:05:19 <bancus> It's not in the original, at least.
21:05:51 <clsn> #?/usr/bin/perl (i.e., ask the OS, should I really be using this?)
21:08:45 <clsn> So the difference between || and // is that // stops on anything *defined*, whereas || needs it to be non-false. This is so?
21:09:21 <clsn> (I would not have thought that a short-circuit xor was possible, but go fig.)
21:10:49 <sbp> clsn: as far as I know
21:11:20 <sbp> what's nice too is that you can open a file handle that's already open
21:11:20 <clsn> mmkay.
21:11:46 <sbp> so this works:
21:11:47 <sbp> my $f = open(@*ARGS[1] // $*IN);
21:13:17 <clsn> I guess I should try Once Again to get perl6 to compile. And then find some purpose to use it for.
21:13:34 <sbp> clsn: rakudo was fairly easy on debian and OS X
21:13:38 <sbp> once I upgraded Xcode...
21:13:44 <[bjoern]> hmm only three times as fast, and mine is slower than what I remember...
21:13:46 <sbp> but I recommend doing it the second way
21:14:29 <clsn> I got rakudo working (once, then it wouldn't build again). And it was SLOW with a capital W.
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21:14:58 <sbp> clsn:
21:14:58 <sbp> $ git clone git://github.com/rakudo/rakudo.git
21:14:59 <sbp> $ cd rakudo && perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
21:14:59 <sbp> $ gmake
21:15:06 <sbp> only takes 15 or 20 minutes or something
21:15:13 <clsn> yeah yeah, I know, I know, I've been through this a few times.
21:15:17 <sbp> kk
21:15:26 <clsn> But something is always weirdoid about my system.
21:15:38 <sbp> mine too, but I just needed to upgrade Xcode
21:15:46 <sbp> needed help from a German, of all things, to do it
21:16:25 <lisppaste2> xover annotated #77950 "Working Net::SNMP example." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77950#1
21:16:42 <sbp> Swhack. code fixed whilst-u-wait
21:16:43 <clsn> Tene helped me get it working once. Then when I upgraded it didn't. Oops.
21:17:07 <Tene> clsn: you need --jitcapable=0 in your Parrot configurej
21:17:16 <Tene> and --optimize
21:17:26 <clsn> I think I tried that one, rebuilt parrot... Oh maybe --optimize.
21:17:27 <clsn> Let's see.
21:17:48 * clsn does updates an' all first.
21:18:00 <sbp> Tene: what do you work on w.r.t. perl6?
21:18:26 <Tene> sbp: most recently I wrote an implementation of leave()
21:18:36 <Tene> there's still debate on whether it's the right way to do it, though
21:18:44 <sbp> hehe
21:18:53 <clsn> What's leave() supposed to do?
21:19:11 <Tene> Mine uses exceptions, and adds some overhead (an extra exception handler) to every block.
21:19:16 *** lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
21:19:50 <Tene> the most common thing I've worked on has been exceptions
21:20:02 <Tene> I wrote placeholder variables ages ago
21:20:29 <Tene> I mostly do parrot-level stuff these days.
21:20:48 <Tene> The other big thing I work on is HLL interoperation
21:20:55 <clsn> I like the idea of parrot being so easy to write interpreters in.
21:21:24 <[bjoern]> .c 12432ms / 778ms
21:21:24 <phenny> (12 432 milliseconds) / (778 milliseconds) = 15.9794344
21:21:33 <[bjoern]> that's speed difference in debug build
21:21:41 <Tene> clsn: yes, // is defined-or
21:21:58 <Tene> backported to perl 5.10
21:22:03 <clsn> gotcha.
21:23:37 * clsn thinks there should be a programming language named timecube. There probably is.
21:23:49 <clsn> But it needs to be incomprehensible.
21:23:56 <sbp> Java is roughly equivalent
21:24:52 <Tene> clsn: did you finish watching my PCT presentation video? I don't remember.
21:25:24 <clsn> I don't remember either. I think I didn't. The question is, did I ever download the whole thing oto watch later. I think so.
21:25:44 <Tene> http://www.opensourcetv.tv/video/15.html
21:26:26 <clsn> Yep, I got it. But mplayer won't play it. But I think I downloaded something else that did.
21:27:22 <clsn> Ohyeah. VLC can do it.
21:27:42 <Tene> The second time I gave that presentation was much better, but wasn't filmed.
21:28:18 <clsn> Ain't it always like that.
21:31:02 <Tene> clsn: leave is kinda like return, but you can specify which block you're leaving.
21:31:08 <Tene> defaults to the innermost block
21:31:34 <clsn> OK... well, if it's leaving blocks, it's more like break (or rather, last), innit?
21:31:48 <clsn> Whereas return climbs up the invocation stack.
21:31:51 <Tene> break and last are loop-specific
21:31:58 <clsn> True.
21:32:10 <clsn> So leave is more a generalization of break.
21:32:26 <Tene> they'll go out until they find a block that catches them specifically (a loop) or a block that catches CONTROL exceptions
21:32:32 <Tene> Yeah.
21:33:21 <clsn> Sounds similar to exceptions, except that exceptions also climb the stack.
21:33:35 <Tene> they *are* exceptions.
21:33:51 <clsn> Oh. OK, then. Exceptions I understand.
21:34:21 <Tene> a loop is just a block that has default exception handlers for next/redo/last and such
21:34:37 <Tene> gather/take is exceptions too
21:35:14 <Tene> the discussion about leave is that maybe leave isn't an exception, but some kind of lower-level primitive instead.
21:36:07 <clsn> Yah. one thing I liked about Java was its while loops could totally generalize for()s. Such that continue statements skip out and execute a special block before going on.
21:36:25 <clsn> I don't remember if perl5 could do that; I expect perl6 can.
21:36:52 <lisppaste2> bancus annotated #77950 "New Version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77950#2
21:37:18 <Tene> I implemented all of the loop stuff. It's pretty cool.
21:37:28 <Tene> Well, the exceptions part of it.
21:38:01 <clsn> Kewl.
21:40:51 <Tene> It was really satisfying the first time I was able to call 'next' in ruby to iterate a loop in Perl.
21:42:02 <clsn> Heh. Interlanguage communication fþƿ.
21:51:55 <[bjoern]> phenny, tell sbp http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1481892,00.jpg
21:51:55 <phenny> [bjoern]: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
22:05:49 <clsn> Tene! I'm reading S02 of perl6, trying to get a grip on the language oging thru things i norder. In the test cases for embedded comments, is it your doing that the sample comments are Lojban numbers??
22:06:25 <clsn> .u ᚛᚜
22:06:26 <phenny> U+169B OGHAM FEATHER MARK (᚛)
22:06:26 <phenny> U+169C OGHAM REVERSED FEATHER MARK (᚜)
22:15:21 <Tene> clsn: no, wasn't me. I don't remember who it was.
22:15:26 <Tene> you could svn blame it, though
22:15:30 <Tene> svn does blame, right?
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22:16:10 <clsn> Uh, I think so. For a given VCS I'm lucky if I remember how to do checkins and checkouts and status and diff, which is 90% of what I ever need to do.
22:16:26 * Tene runs blame
22:16:44 <Tene> stephenpollei
22:17:08 <clsn> And anyway, that's in rakudo isn't it? And rakudo is git I think.
22:17:22 <Tene> no, the spectests are in the pugs repository
22:17:25 <Tene> which is svn
22:17:39 <Tene> and has a very open policy for giving commit privs
22:18:05 <Tene> 'make spectest' in rakudo uses svn to checkout the tests
22:18:36 <clsn> Oh. I don't even have that one downloaded/
22:18:41 <clsn> Ah, K.
22:18:47 <Tene> I think I'm the one who gave him commit privs and got him to work on it in the first place
22:18:53 <Tene> so kinda indirectly responsible
22:19:06 <Tene> decent unicode support in rakudo is coming RSN
22:19:09 <Tene> This month.
22:19:14 <clsn> (perl6 built, btw)
22:20:10 <clsn> yay for Unicode. My .XCompose file has to be good for something. And I should be able to name variables þursday or hƿæt...
22:20:52 <clsn> Hm, are token names processed with NFC or NFKC or something? e.g. is $s different from $ſ ?
22:21:25 <Tene> I remember hearing that acronym in relevant discussions, but that's all I know.
22:22:36 <Tene> It's possible that things like that might vary depending on locale, too, iirc.
22:23:30 <Tene> clsn: can you explain why they should be the same?
22:24:14 <clsn> My example may be ill-chosen, since I don't remember the details, but the thing is that some Unicode characters have canonical or compatibility decompositions to others.
22:24:44 <clsn> For example, é (precomposed) vs é (e + accent) are canonically equivalent. No fair treating them different.
22:24:50 <clsn> .u é
22:24:50 <phenny> U+00E9 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE (é)
22:24:55 <clsn> .u é
22:24:55 <phenny> U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E (e)
22:24:56 <phenny> U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT (◌́)
22:25:11 <Tene> That example I do know. Yes, they're the same.
22:25:31 <clsn> And sometimes there are single-letter cases, like Å and the Ångstrom symbol wherever it is.
22:26:00 <clsn> There are also *compatibility* equivalences, where they're not REALLY the same, but similar in first approximation.
22:26:33 <clsn> I believe my example was apt after all.
22:27:15 <clsn> So ſ is compatibility equivalent to s. If you replace it with s, you won't get something that everyone agrees is the same, but you'll get something that everyone agrees retains the basic information.
22:28:23 <clsn> the ij ligature is compatibility equivalent to i + j... check for <compat> in Unicode.txt. Other things I think also flag it.
22:29:36 <clsn> NFD and NFC normalize canonical equivalences; NFKC and NFKD fold compatibility equivalences together also.
22:34:30 <[bjoern]> .codepoint ij.*<com
22:34:30 <phenny> 0132: LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE IJ (IJ)
22:34:31 <phenny> 0133: LATIN SMALL LIGATURE IJ (ij)
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