00:01:10 <nsh> read something today in this mathematical proof guide that gave me pause
00:01:15 <nsh> while talking about proof by induction
00:01:57 <nsh> "Suppose that we think of the integers lined up like dominoes. The inductive step tells us that they are close enough for each domino to knock over the next one, the base case tells us that the first domino falls over, the conclusion is that they all fall over.
00:01:58 <nsh> "
00:02:11 <nsh> which had a footnote
00:02:37 <nsh> "The fault in this analogy is that it takes time for each domino to fall and so a domino which is a long way along the line won't fall over for a long time. Mathematical implication is outside time."
00:02:55 <[bjoern]> so visual studio 2008 seems to do better
00:03:03 <[bjoern]> it also compiles a shitload faster than gcc...
00:03:41 <nsh> that's because they kill an amazonian tribeschild every time they commit a change to the source tree, [bjoern]
00:03:59 <nsh> "Mathematical implication is outside time."
00:03:59 <[bjoern]> gcc or microsoft devs?
00:04:03 <nsh> the latter
00:04:21 <[bjoern]> Well, it does seem to work.
00:04:32 <nsh> that's what i keep trying to tell RMS
00:05:13 <Arnia> nsh: it is better to think of it as being *without* time. A mathematical proof doesn't make the thing so. It merely explicates a truth that is already there in the system
00:05:44 <Arnia> nsh: mathematical logics typically having a static, a-temporal semantics and an axiomatic nature
00:05:52 <Arnia> nsh: so the analogy is false for an entirely more interesting reason
00:06:04 * nsh nods contemplatively
00:06:11 <Arnia> nsh: the fact that the dominoes are moving whilst mathematics is 'done'
00:06:51 <nsh> well, what i was thinking was something similar: that mathematical 'proof' at some level of understanding is the basis of physics
00:06:53 <Arnia> (perhaps I should denote the body of truths that mathematicians mine out of the axioms they've defined as Mathematics, and the ones they've already discovered as mathematics)
00:06:58 <nsh> wheeler: it from bit
00:07:07 <Arnia> In which case, Mathematics is done, whilst mathematics is an ongoing process
00:07:14 <nsh> quite
00:07:26 <nsh> but that has interesting consequences for the chain of dominoes idea
00:07:33 <Arnia> but it is so easy to get confused between the two
00:07:42 <nsh> in that the lower-case mathematics that underlies physical events has then locality
00:07:54 <nsh> which means that domino-chains can be intersepted, can intersect
00:07:55 <nsh> etc.
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00:08:09 <Arnia> and most mathematicians, philosophers, journalists and 'pop science' commentators fail to appreciate the difference between Mathematics and mathematics
00:08:26 <[bjoern]> whoo progress, normally the best ones are like this
00:08:27 <[bjoern]> 23153 scored by 23589
00:08:30 <[bjoern]> now i got one
00:08:34 <[bjoern]> 23158 scored by 23384
00:09:12 <[bjoern]> almost all time spent on compiling... 50000 per minute
00:09:14 * nsh raises a crisp to toast [bjoern]'s arbitrary-seeming-but-cool-by-imputation figures
00:10:29 <[bjoern]> i need 23169
00:11:34 <nsh> Arnia, but is logical implication is _ontologically_prior_ to temporal ordering, and what then (ahem)...?
00:13:42 <nsh> and what if the underlying propositional elements are not atomic and static, but wavemechanical and dynamic, autopoietic?
00:14:31 <nsh> if "truths" that are persistant over (physical) time are such due to being dynamically regenerated
00:14:46 <nsh> akin to physical objects
00:14:58 <nsh> their most likely successors are (slighly imperfect) copies of themselves
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00:18:48 <bsh> not funny
00:19:08 <bsh> i can't work if the computer turns itself off every 20 minutes
00:19:25 <nsh> :-?
00:19:30 <nsh> :-/ even
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00:38:17 <bsh> Well there is a remote chance that the cpu is overheating, but it's very remote
00:38:52 <bsh> just ran a batch and it increased less than 10C, and it's quite normal to run at 100% utilization for much much longer
00:39:50 <bsh> well let's check the bios anyway...
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02:19:55 <[bjoern]> okay Tiny C Compiler compiles *a lot* faster than my others
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02:56:23 <[bjoern]> 23162 scored by 22863
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03:14:35 <[bjoern]> .c 169-128
03:14:36 <phenny> 169 - 128 = 41
04:08:49 <[bjoern]> phenny, tell sbp http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/apr/09/shipping-pollution
04:08:50 <phenny> [bjoern]: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
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07:53:04 <sbp> yo
07:53:05 <phenny> sbp: 04:08Z <[bjoern]> tell sbp http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/apr/09/shipping-pollution
07:53:28 <_ulises> yo sbp
07:53:47 <sbp> yo _ulises!
07:53:49 <sbp> what ups?
07:54:02 <_ulises> wo-wee!
07:54:04 <_ulises> not much
07:54:11 <_ulises> brb - coffee
07:54:13 <_ulises> got shit to share
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10:12:50 <sbp> “CPS: Damian Green will not be charged”
10:12:55 <sbp> — BBC News caption
10:13:03 <sbp> (surprise, surprise)
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12:13:13 <sbp> Lord Mandelson says people will fall in love with electric cars
12:13:51 <sbp> of course, it would help if people stopped designing them like berks
12:14:17 <sbp> there was that interesting one that May tested; I think it was a Honda
12:14:24 <sbp> that looked okay, because it looked just like a...
12:14:26 <sbp> well a Honda
12:14:47 <sbp> that was hydrogen powered though
12:14:54 <sbp> they're talking about plugin cars here
12:14:59 <sbp> which seems a bit silly
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12:15:05 <sbp> since charging takes soooo long
12:15:17 <sbp> and hydrogen is just a matter of pumping, which is quick and people are used to it
12:15:23 <aspect> how about that chinese guy's batteries
12:15:24 <sbp> (though you have to lock a hydrogen pump)
12:15:39 <sbp> (because you don't want supercool hydrogen on your shoes)
12:15:45 <sbp> aspect: oh yeah? advances being made?
12:16:26 <sbp> .gc empbankment
12:16:26 <phenny> empbankment: 21
12:16:55 <aspect> trying to find a source that's not tertiary or worse
12:17:27 <aspect> http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/battery-material-0311.html
12:17:47 <aspect> [... a small battery that could be fully charged or discharged in 10 to 20 seconds (it takes six minutes to fully charge or discharge a cell made from the unprocessed material)]
12:20:09 <sbp> is it capacitative?
12:20:48 <sbp> ah, nope
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12:47:09 <sbp> guided buses: interesting
12:48:47 <sbp> .c 26km in miles
12:48:48 <phenny> 26 kilometers = 16.155651 miles
12:50:38 <sbp> "Dennis made Team Principle in ..." - BBC
12:51:15 <[bjoern]> yo
12:51:40 <sbp> ounyounyounyo
12:52:05 <[bjoern]> XXX XXX XXXXX
12:52:05 <[bjoern]> X X X X
12:52:05 <[bjoern]> X X X X
12:52:05 <[bjoern]> X X X X
12:52:05 <[bjoern]> X X X X
12:52:06 <[bjoern]> X XXXXX
12:52:08 <[bjoern]> X
12:52:10 <[bjoern]> XX
12:52:38 <sbp> nuXX
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12:54:11 <[bjoern]> I wonder about buying Wärmeleitpaste. I recall running short last time i re-installed the cpu fan.
12:54:45 * sbp prepares for leofail:
12:54:47 <sbp> .leo Wärmeleitpaste
12:54:48 <phenny> die Wärmeleitpaste = heat-conductive paste (tech.), thermal conductance paste (tech.), thermal conducting industrial glue (tech.), thermally conductive paste
12:54:49 <phenny> — http://dict.leo.org/ende?search=W%C3%A4rmeleitpaste
12:54:52 <sbp> ooh
12:55:14 <sbp> just use mayonnaise
12:55:21 <sbp> it acts in much the same way
12:55:29 <sbp> and it's the only thing that mayonnaise is good for
12:56:25 <[bjoern]> cpu now at 58C-62C ~idle, i did manage to get it to 80C during bit hax finding, i assume compiling -> pc goes off might have resulted from that
12:56:43 <[bjoern]> although it's always been running at about that temperature with no issues whatsoever
12:56:55 <sbp> you said it was going down every 20 minutes
12:57:03 <sbp> so I thought you might have a shutdown script on cron
12:57:33 <[bjoern]> well that was a rough estimate, and its always during compiling massive amounts of c code
12:57:49 <sbp> yeah, spread some mayo on it
12:58:11 <[bjoern]> yesterday idle temp was also more like 68, not sure why that would be
12:59:38 <[bjoern]> only alternative expl would be that my cpu has a bug triggered by one of the generated files that, curiously, manifests itself either only after a couple of minutes, or during compilation of c code, with multiple compilers
12:59:43 <[bjoern]> though that sounds unlikely
13:00:17 <sbp> check all the wires for mousebites
13:00:38 <[bjoern]> I use teethless mice.
13:04:22 <sbp> oh, clever
13:04:31 <sbp> except when you want them to act as attack-mice
13:04:35 <sbp> fending off intruders
13:04:47 <[bjoern]> Starvation is also a problem.
13:05:05 <sbp> starvation is always a problem with you
13:05:13 <[bjoern]> I knew you'd gonna say that.
13:05:24 <sbp> you'd knew correctful
13:05:53 <[bjoern]> I hardly could have knewed more correctfully.
13:06:38 <sbp> I'm annoyed that you called your box old and out of date and shitty on the mailing list, by the way. because now that I see the spec from the benchmark test docs, I see that it's better than mine
13:06:56 <sbp> and I like to be under the delusion that I'm still relatively up to date hardwarewise
13:08:31 <[bjoern]> I ordered my cpu 12 Nov 2004
13:08:37 <[bjoern]> very shortly after my notebook died
13:08:48 <sbp> oh, maybe you have less transistors then actually
13:08:53 <sbp> your chip speed is higher though
13:09:12 <[bjoern]> it cost 77 EUR at the time
13:09:18 <sbp> heh
13:09:47 * sbp wonders what the latest djb box is
13:09:48 <[bjoern]> Considering what I payed for my Pentium 200MHz (no MMX) I would say with much confidence that it's old and low end
13:10:08 <sbp> ah, there's a new one!
13:10:11 <sbp> .title http://cr.yp.to/hardware/build-20090123.html
13:10:11 <phenny> sbp: How to build the 2009.01.23 standard workstation
13:10:45 <[bjoern]> so what is your cpu?
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13:12:01 <sbp> djb: 2.83 GHz, 8GB RAM, 750 GB hard drive
13:12:18 <sbp> mine is a 2 GHz Intel Core Duo
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13:13:42 <[bjoern]> i recently disconnected my dvd drive. it's buggy and i only ever use it when setting up the system
13:14:50 <sbp> .c (282 + 92 + 25 + 22 + 8 + 255 + 11 + 53 + 53 + 120 + 10 + 8) USD in GBP
13:14:51 <phenny> (282 + 92 + 25 + 22 + 8 + 255 + 11 + 53 + 53 + 120 + 10 + 8) * U.S. dollar = 628.345824 British pounds
13:16:45 <sbp> [bjoern]: do you have ECC or non-ECC memory?
13:17:02 <[bjoern]> I tell you if you tell me how to find out
13:17:16 <[bjoern]> my order just lists "DIMM 512 MB (für PC)"
13:17:31 <[bjoern]> Also, not sure what the other 512 MB block is
13:18:04 <sbp> no idea. I guess you'd need to look up the full spec
13:18:12 <sbp> from the memory type name
13:18:27 <[bjoern]> the other block is "DIMM 512 MB DDR-400 (für PC) I9ID15"
13:18:39 <sbp> .g I9ID15
13:18:40 <phenny> sbp: http://suche.chip.de/fujitsu%20siemens%20d%201607%20.html
13:19:40 <[bjoern]> that's shop specific id
13:19:47 <sbp> .title http://web.archive.org/*/http://www.alternate.de/html/shop/productDetails.html?artno=I9ID15
13:19:47 <phenny> Can't connect to http://web.archive.org/*/http://www.alternate.de/html/shop/productDetails.html?artno=I9ID15
13:20:55 <[bjoern]> there do not seem to be decent cpu side-by-side comparison services
13:21:44 <sbp> and CPU benchmarking really sucks
13:22:38 <[bjoern]> they are both infenion blocks
13:24:26 <sbp> djb's computer names:
13:24:27 <sbp> --
13:24:27 <sbp> grumpy
13:24:27 <sbp> muncher
13:24:27 <sbp> cruncher
13:24:28 <sbp> twog
13:24:30 <sbp> silverton
13:24:32 <sbp> gggg
13:24:34 <sbp> crystal
13:24:36 <sbp> stoneport
13:24:38 <sbp> forcewall
13:24:40 <sbp> thoth
13:24:42 <sbp> --
13:24:44 <sbp> source: http://cr.yp.to/hardware/funding.html
13:27:08 <sbp> http://cr.yp.to/hardware/ui.html also mentions a fireball
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13:46:12 <[bjoern]> I take it dmidecode would tell me, but starting with my operating system, that no longer works on windows...
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13:59:30 <[bjoern]> do you have a 65nm or 45nm core2?
14:01:45 * JibberJim gets his ruler out
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15:13:17 <[bjoern]> byte >> !(byte & 0x80); creates a (semi-)compatible partitioning, but with 192 classes.
15:13:52 <[bjoern]> (I say semi because I currently do not check whether the class numbers can be used to strip the top bytes as the current arrangement can be)
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15:43:57 <nsh> clsn
15:43:58 <nsh> [[[
15:43:59 <nsh> "We're ready for you," he said. "Who's first?"
15:43:59 <nsh> Rasmah said, "Tchicaya hasn't smeared himself in goat fat yet, so it'll have to be me."
15:44:12 <nsh> ]]] --Greg Egan's novel Schild's Ladder
15:44:13 <[bjoern]> ((byte & 252)/4) would nicely split them into groups of four, with a way to remove the collisions around special bytes ala f4, ed, ...
15:44:16 <nsh> is this a Toranical reference?
15:45:15 <nsh> (the context is that two representatives of one faction of scientists are to present the case for a moratorium to another set of scientists)
15:47:25 <nsh> it seems there is ritual smearing of goat _blood_ but not fat, and while Egan is usually very careful with his references, this may have been a slip-up, or an intentional misreference (as the speakers are from 20,000 years in the future, and a level of historical inaccuracy has already been alluded to)
15:47:30 <[bjoern]> hmm
15:48:12 <nsh> .oed invidious
15:48:12 <phenny> invidious (ety. ad. L. invidiōs-us (see -ous...) * 1. Of a charge, complaint, report, etc.: Tending or fitted to excite odium, unpopularity, or ill feeling against some one. Now rare., * 2. Of an action, duty, topic, etc.: Entailing odium or ill will upon the person performing, discharging,...
15:48:22 <nsh> .ety invidious
15:48:23 <phenny> "1606, from L. invidiosus 'envious,' from invidia 'ill will' (see envy)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=invidious
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16:06:56 <nsh> .ety frisson
16:06:56 <phenny> Can't find the etymology for "frisson". Try http://etymonline.com/?search=frisson
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17:11:08 <nslater> woo, all purdy and aligned
17:11:21 <MoiraA> hello nslater
17:11:27 <nslater> hello MoiraA
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18:23:17 <[bjoern]> byte = (byte ^ 1) & 254; does it into 128 classes
18:24:44 <[bjoern]> eek, no, fails 4
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18:48:26 <[bjoern]> Open http://www.hotbot.com/ with Opera. Move the cursor out of the input field (click the blank or whatever), then press space.
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19:05:57 <[bjoern]> .gc profficy
19:05:58 <phenny> profficy: 64
19:19:38 <thelsdj> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90VsKu8RbzU
19:20:10 <thelsdj> David Wolman visits Google's Mountain View, CA headquarters to discuss his book "Righting the Mother Tongue: From Olde English to Email, the Tangled Story of English Spelling."
19:20:42 <[bjoern]> .leo richten
19:20:43 <phenny> dressing = das Richten
19:20:44 <phenny> flattening (tech.) = das Richten
19:20:45 <phenny> lay = das Richten
19:20:45 <phenny> — http://dict.leo.org/ende?search=richten
19:20:51 <[bjoern]> funny
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21:23:11 <[bjoern]> phenny, tell sbp http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/14/MN10172HH8.DTL
21:23:12 <phenny> [bjoern]: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
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23:57:45 <Arnia> phenny, tell sbp about http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/destinations/england/article5815885.ece
23:57:45 <phenny> Arnia: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.