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00:34:21 <cre8radix2> -leo fertile
00:34:25 <cre8radix2> .leo fertile
00:34:27 <phenny> fertile a. = ergiebig, ertragreich, fruchtbar, reich
00:34:28 <phenny> Fertile Crescent (geog.) = fruchtbarer Halbbmond
00:34:29 <phenny> Fertile Crescent (hist.) = Fruchtbarer Halbmond
00:34:29 <phenny> — http://dict.leo.org/ende?search=fertile
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02:18:39 <cre8radix> .u for all
02:18:40 <phenny> U+2200 FOR ALL (∀)
02:24:56 <cre8radix> .u neutral
02:24:57 <phenny> cre8radix: Sorry, no results for 'neutral'.
02:25:17 <cre8radix> .u therfore
02:25:18 <phenny> cre8radix: Sorry, no results for 'therfore'.
02:25:27 <cre8radix> .u therefor
02:25:27 <phenny> U+2234 THEREFORE (∴)
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08:59:59 <sbp> yo
08:59:59 <phenny> sbp: 29 Apr 22:13Z <[bjoern]> tell sbp http://www.w3.org/mid/D1A7FC19-0CB9-4368-9DD8-FE3ABA5BC2B6@w3.org
09:00:01 <phenny> sbp: 29 Apr 23:46Z <[bjoern]> tell sbp http://media.newvoicemedia.org/banners/www/images/granburyspotlight.gif
09:00:04 <phenny> sbp: 01:14Z <nslater> tell sbp http://hackety.org/2009/04/29/aSelectionOfThoughtsFromActualWomen.html (some dude presented a couchdb talk at a big conf that used pornography to get his points across, blogosphere mayhem ensues
09:00:05 <phenny> sbp: 01:14Z <nslater> tell sbp )
09:02:06 <sbp> chox at semantic-web/2009Apr/0219
09:03:34 <sbp> phenny: tell [bjoern] and what is the answer to the banner?
09:03:34 <phenny> sbp: I'll pass that on when [bjoern] is around.
09:07:56 <sbp> okay, I've read through loads of these
09:08:02 <sbp> and I had no idea what the fuss was about until I got here:
09:08:03 <sbp> --
09:08:04 <sbp> Renae Bair: So big fucking deal if Matt Aimonetti showed you some chicks in thongs to make a somewhat amusing point. YES, Matt’s slides gave me major douche chills. It was odd and I didn’t quite like it. But I was not offended, nor did I care how professional/unprofessional it was.
09:08:07 <sbp> --
09:08:56 <_ulises> read other channels pls
09:09:24 <sbp> _ulises: well it doesn't make sense
09:09:28 <_ulises> wut?
09:09:32 <sbp> because you've got people saying they won't use ruby again and stuff
09:09:39 <_ulises> great then
09:09:43 <sbp> if it was a couchdb talk, that totally doesn't make sense
09:09:51 <sbp> enjoyed this one:
09:09:52 <sbp> --
09:09:52 <sbp> Leah Silber: (An organizer of GoGaRuCo.) I find the generalization that this offended women to be offensive. It offended people — not women selectively or by any majority. See? It’s a slippery slope and we’d best err on the side of being open-minded, rather than calling for book (or slide, as it were) burnings.
09:09:53 <sbp> --
09:09:59 <_ulises> i read about 5 comments before closing the tab
09:10:18 <sbp> reminds me how bad blog journalism is
09:10:18 <_ulises> it's just stupid
09:10:28 <sbp> even compared to regular journalism, which is pretty bad to start with
09:10:30 <_ulises> the guy showed tits and arses in his slides
09:10:33 <_ulises> big fucking deal
09:10:48 <sbp> you've seen the slide?
09:10:51 <_ulises> yes
09:10:59 <_ulises> at first i found them amusing
09:11:01 <_ulises> then no more
09:11:07 <_ulises> and then I just plainly didn't care
09:11:13 <_ulises> it's a non-issue if you ask me
09:11:30 <_ulises> "zomg! you python programmars all have beards ... and we womenz can't grow one! sexist!"
09:11:38 <_ulises> it's stupid
09:12:02 <_ulises> like the one comment about "nursing a project"
09:12:09 <sbp> haha. the IT Crowd slide inclusion is good
09:12:36 <_ulises> i've always said that we need moar unprofessional slides at conferences too
09:13:04 <_ulises> if i only had 1p per talk i've been too where the presenter has 1000000 slides full of text and bullet points and s/he reads them out loud ...
09:13:21 <_ulises> again: it's a non-issue
09:13:42 <sbp> not quite sure who you're telling that... :-)
09:14:31 <sbp> and anyway, I think Leah Silber's point is very good
09:14:40 <sbp> it comes up only very rarely, though there was another recent instance
09:14:51 <sbp> when... what's her name... oh, Katy Brand
09:15:10 <sbp> they were covering the whole Britain's Got Talent Scotswoman thing on HIGNFY
09:15:25 <sbp> and they were arguing about whether she should be tarted up or left ugly
09:15:29 <_ulises> i was just ranting :)
09:15:42 <sbp> and Brand was like "or you could just stop patronising her and let her do what she wants..."
09:15:50 <_ulises> heh
09:16:08 <sbp> (to stunned silence at first and then tentative politically correct applause)
09:16:28 <_ulises> ok, can you explain to me then what's the issue with those slides then?
09:16:33 <_ulises> because I just can't see it
09:16:46 <sbp> why do you think that I think there's an issue?
09:16:52 <_ulises> oh, no, dunno
09:16:55 <_ulises> i thought you did
09:16:57 <_ulises> sry
09:17:00 <sbp> yeah, why?
09:17:18 <sbp> all I've said about the slides is that I like the IT Crowd one
09:17:22 <_ulises> because you read through the comments and asked questions about whether it was about couchdb or ruby or ...
09:17:30 <_ulises> so it seemed as if you had an opinion
09:17:32 <sbp> oddly enough I saw that re... oh right, Linehan used it on his blog
09:17:44 <sbp> nah, it's a load of bollocks as usual
09:17:51 <_ulises> ah, cool
09:17:52 <sbp> come on, I wrote Technobunkum for goodness' sake
09:18:01 <_ulises> heh
09:18:07 <_ulises> techno-bum-bum
09:18:19 <sbp> if they weren't arguing about this they'd be arguing about licenses or method decorators
09:18:38 <sbp> but Silber's point is an interesting one sociologically speaking
09:18:42 <_ulises> we needz moar arguments ppl, let's flame ESR!
09:18:53 <sbp> so not a complete waste of an article, probably by accient
09:18:57 <sbp> *+d
09:19:07 <sbp> esr's all flamed out
09:19:33 <_ulises> yeah, i didn't get quite as far as that comment but what you pasted is interesting ...
09:19:41 <_ulises> im sure there's room for some moar flaming
09:19:43 <_ulises> there always is
09:20:39 <sbp> actually one extra point, it's interesting how many people are descriptifailing on their use of the word pornography. when I first read it, I thought that he'd been showing erotic vulvæ all over the place
09:21:09 <_ulises> i think there was a comment about that
09:21:12 <sbp> then again, the US has a famously wooly definition of indecent anyway
09:21:29 <_ulises> heh, yeah, a chick in thongs is hardly pornography id say
09:21:39 <_ulises> a viagra pill is hardly pornography
09:21:43 <sbp> hehe
09:21:52 <sbp> depends what you're doing with the viagra pill
09:22:00 <_ulises> africa starving to death is pornographic ... ill tell you that much
09:22:21 <_ulises> well, sugaring your grandpa's tea, that's what you do with it
09:22:25 <_ulises> then you run for cover
09:22:35 <sbp> also I'm impressed how bad slideshare is
09:22:45 <_ulises> fail?
09:22:46 <sbp> press button, make a cup of tea whilst the slide changes...
09:23:09 <_ulises> I'm surprised there's no "Let's flame ESR" site yet
09:23:10 <sbp> why is there even such a site as slideshare?
09:23:17 <sbp> back in the day we had things called HTML and PDF
09:23:22 <_ulises> like the list of things chuck norris is capable of but with flames to ESR
09:23:29 <sbp> we didn't need crappy flash interfaces to make things annoying
09:23:34 <sbp> we already had HTML and PDF to do that for us
09:24:09 <_ulises> HTML and PDF? fossil!
09:24:14 <sbp> oh, I just remembered something
09:24:15 <sbp> hang on
09:25:54 <sbp> lisppaste2: url?
09:25:55 <lisppaste2> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/swhack and enter your paste.
09:27:22 <lisppaste2> sbp pasted "Chesterton on Ideals and Realities (from Simmons and the Social Tie in Alarms and Discursions)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79450
09:27:36 <sbp> _ulises: chex
09:27:41 <_ulises> on it
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09:29:32 <_ulises> nice
09:29:38 <_ulises> should comment with just that eh?
09:29:55 <danja> can some translate
09:29:58 <sbp> heh, yeah
09:30:22 <_ulises> like "people, just bloody grow up, btw chexxor: [link]"
09:30:28 <_ulises> that guarantees nobody will
09:30:41 <danja> grin
09:30:42 <sbp> danja: what up?
09:30:49 <_ulises> gron
09:30:59 <sbp> phenny: "Inländerdiskriminierung ist freilich europarechtlich zulässig."?
09:31:00 <phenny> sbp: "Reverse discrimination, is Europe legally permissible." (de to en, translate.google.com)
09:31:02 <danja> in Aachen
09:31:08 <sbp> nice
09:31:12 <danja> people speak like that here
09:31:16 <sbp> heh
09:31:52 <danja> ooh, phenny has the smarts
09:32:59 <danja> how you sbp?
09:33:06 <sbp> cool thanks
09:33:19 <sbp> just musing about pornography which isn't pornography
09:33:28 <danja> ?
09:34:10 <_ulises> exactly
09:34:12 <danja> doesn´t that kind of defeat the object?
09:34:27 <_ulises> womenz aren't objects!
09:34:45 <danja> lol
09:34:48 <sbp> yeah we don't know either
09:35:06 <sbp> we decided to agree with Mrs. Buttons, I think
09:35:25 <danja> Mrs. Button ftw
09:35:53 <_ulises> i wonder if she knew how to poledance
09:36:10 <_ulises> I think all womenz should know how to do that
09:37:00 <sbp> maybe she had an inner poledancer
09:37:23 <danja> now that´s a weird concept
09:37:45 <_ulises> an unfulfilled dream you say sbp?
09:38:04 <_ulises> perhaps her dad wanted her to be a poledancer and she chose to be a solicitor instead, just to spite him?
09:38:15 <danja> hehe
09:40:14 <sbp> interesting thing about the Gurkha vote yesterday: it makes Brown "the first premier to lose an opposition day debate in the Commons in 30 years" according to http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8025658.stm
09:41:52 <sbp> “While 27 Labour rebels joined the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives on Wednesday, the real damage is the vast number of Labour MPs who decided to defy a three line whip and simply sit on their hands and abstain.”
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09:43:42 <sbp> ooh, vote on expenses today
09:44:15 <sbp> sounds interesting, I mean
09:44:54 <sbp> [[[
09:44:55 <sbp> But the real worry for Gordon Brown and his whips is that this could merely be the warm-up act for Thursday's vote on expenses.
09:44:55 <sbp> Lose that and we're into some very dangerous territory for the prime minister, something the whips know all too well warning - as they are - that it's tantamount to a vote of confidence.
09:44:56 <sbp> ]]]
09:45:34 <sbp> still, if they lose that they're hardly going to have a leadership confidence vote are they?
09:45:44 <sbp> where's Arnia when you need him. Arnia?
09:47:25 <_ulises> who needs Arnia ... ever?
09:47:39 <sbp> good point. perhaps you can answer then?
09:47:43 <_ulises> sure can
09:47:46 <_ulises> what's the question?
09:47:54 <sbp> if the government lose the expenses row, are they likely to have a leadership confidence vote?
09:48:08 <_ulises> define leadership confidence vote?
09:48:35 <sbp> a vote held by the Labour party to determine whether they still have confidence or not in Gordon Brown as party leader and Prime Minister
09:48:45 <_ulises> right
09:48:50 <_ulises> i've no clue
09:48:59 <sbp> where's Arnia when you need him...
09:49:36 <sbp> (*expenses vote, not row. but both really)
09:50:04 <_ulises> heh
09:50:28 <_ulises> so you think that if the govmt loses this vote then nobody will trust them anymore?
09:51:39 <sbp> hmm, where's the parliament schedule
09:51:42 <Arnia> I'm here
09:51:53 <sbp> _ulises: well according to BBC News the whips are warning it's *tantamount* to a vote of confidence
09:52:01 <_ulises> yo Arnia
09:52:13 <_ulises> it's all ching chong wing wong to me
09:52:45 <_ulises> censorship
09:53:44 <sbp> hmm, running from 11:30am to as late as 5pm according to http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmagenda/sa90430.htm
09:55:30 * sbp studies http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmagenda/ob90430.htm carefully
09:56:12 <Arnia> The problem the Tories have is that they don't want to be government... what happens if a rebel (or a loyal) MP calls a vote of no confidence?
09:56:25 <Arnia> Not just a leadership vote, but over the entire government
09:57:30 <Arnia> I don't think there is anyone in the government right now who'd make an obvious leader
09:58:48 <sbp> oh, good point
09:58:51 <Arnia> So, calling a vote of no confidence would force the Tories to either accept that they're fucked (getting into power in the midst of a recession is hardly likely to give them longevity) or humiliatingly back the government
09:59:27 <sbp> so, consider the options for today's vote(s)
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09:59:48 <sbp> whether the government win or lose, you don't think there'll be a poll of confidence?
10:00:23 <Arnia> I think there might be... politicians are very selfish
10:00:36 <sbp> heh, heh
10:00:37 <Arnia> However, I also think that the Tories don't want one
10:00:53 <sbp> would they rather lose the votes today then?
10:01:09 <Arnia> I think yes
10:01:23 <sbp> eeenteresting
10:01:29 <Arnia> If they peak too soon, they'll have to actually follow through on their big ideas
10:01:44 <Arnia> If they wait until the country is recovering anyway, they can take the credit for the next boom
10:02:15 <sbp> true, but at this rate recovery is going to come well after the due date for a general election
10:02:21 <sbp> so they don't really have much choice
10:02:28 <Arnia> so really, I'd say that if the Tories do push to unseat the government before the next general election is required, that says a lot about the economic figures we don't see
10:02:47 <Arnia> sbp: yeah, but you don't want to have the system utterly broken do you?
10:02:59 <sbp> it has been interesting though, because before the bust we had so many calls for Brown to call an election; and then when the bust happened they all stopped
10:03:07 <sbp> which system?
10:03:19 <Arnia> Right now is critical. There is a lot of risk associated with implementing their policies made with the luxury of opposition
10:03:29 <Arnia> The economic system
10:03:51 <sbp> who's more likely to utterly break it?
10:04:14 <sbp> I'm not even entirely sure what the govt. are doing
10:04:20 <sbp> they're bound to be elected out
10:04:25 <sbp> so they might as well play honest
10:04:35 <sbp> and yet there's indication after indication that they're not playing honest
10:05:22 <sbp> all they've got to be concerned about now is their legacy
10:05:33 <sbp> like Bush's speech on his last day. and when you get to that point, it's too late
10:06:45 <sbp> this is why I concluded that Cameron was probably right when he said the govt. don't really have a clue what they're doing financially, they just seem to be wandering about aimlessly. (not that the Conservatives would necessarily be any better)
10:07:45 <Arnia> Yes, but the problem is that the conservatives don't know what to do really either. And even if they have a good idea what would be best, it is risky to actually implement it and take the blame if it fails
10:08:10 <sbp> if the Tories got in sooner rather than later, if they push for an election as you say, then indeed that would seem to indicate that the situation is recoverable more than we think. though it doesn't seem like they're doing that yet, certainly (and the govt. are doing bad so now might be a good time if they wanted to)
10:08:18 <Arnia> (I don't credit any politician atm with being high-minded and looking out for the best for the nation)
10:08:26 <sbp> sure. but the deadline is coming up
10:08:36 <sbp> the Tories can't get out of it, anymore than Labour can!
10:09:21 <Arnia> The point is, by next year we should have turned
10:09:40 <Arnia> Even though things will be bad for a while longer, the lowest point should have been reached
10:10:01 <sbp> ah, hmm
10:10:54 <sbp> alright, so what if the government does lose today and some power struggle happens within Labour that ends up in a general election within a few months...
10:11:06 <sbp> and the Tories would obviously get in if Labour just falls apart
10:11:33 <sbp> it would be too early for them. so say that they get messed up, and they're perceived in a year pretty much as Labour are now
10:11:39 <sbp> what would be the ramifications after that point?
10:11:57 <Arnia> A national government era most likely
10:12:32 <Arnia> I know quite a few people who *want* a national government period
10:12:37 <sbp> hmm
10:12:45 <sbp> just between Tories and Labour?
10:13:25 <Arnia> Tories, Labour, LibDem and potentially BNP
10:13:45 <Arnia> Unless the Greens pull off a miracle
10:13:57 <sbp> you're like me, you read too much history
10:15:39 <Arnia> :p history does tend to rhyme a lot
10:18:57 <Arnia> The BNP aspect does concern me
10:27:47 <sbp> hmm, didn't know that banknotes aren't legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland
10:27:58 <sbp> (they're promissory notes, according to Wikipedia)
10:28:29 <sbp> adding: “although Scots law requires any reasonable offer for settlement of a debt to be accepted”
10:42:13 <_ulises> all i know is that whenever i've tried to use a scots note abroad (including England) I've been given a funny look
10:42:18 <_ulises> but then again it might just be my face
10:42:24 <sbp> hehe
10:42:37 <sbp> yeah, not a good idea to try to use a Scots note in England
10:42:57 <sbp> maybe by the border it's not so bad?
10:43:54 <_ulises> you mean the mexican border?
10:44:21 <sbp> heh
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10:48:33 <sbp> question: are any bridleways in the United Kingdom adjoined to the side of the road?
10:48:45 <sbp> (side of a road)
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11:00:10 <[bjoern]> yo
11:00:10 <phenny> [bjoern]: 09:03Z <sbp> tell [bjoern] and what is the answer to the banner?
11:00:45 <[bjoern]> phenny, tell sbp Hey how am I supposed to recall what I phennyd you. Also, logs.
11:00:45 <phenny> [bjoern]: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
11:00:53 <_ulises> yo [bjoern]
11:00:54 <[bjoern]> also, l8r
11:01:15 <_ulises> l1r
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11:51:20 <sbp> currently in the Commons: Sri Lanka Statement
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12:06:43 <sbp> ooh, here we go
12:06:49 <sbp> Allowances Debate
12:07:00 <Arnia> eep
12:08:04 <cre8radix> sbp: there?
12:08:11 <sbp> oh man, she's starting already
12:08:21 <sbp> saying that Labour already made changes and they did a great deal of good
12:08:30 <sbp> obviously not that much good given the current outcry
12:10:51 <sbp> she's saying there will be no pre-empting of the Kelly Enquiry
12:10:58 <sbp> and that she'll explain in her speech
12:11:45 <Arnia> This Smith?
12:11:50 <sbp> Harman...
12:14:26 <sbp> ah, the first amendment is proposed by the chairman of the enquiry
12:14:30 <Arnia> hrrrm
12:14:32 <sbp> according to Hogg
12:15:58 <sbp> ooh, she's saying there are things they should do now
12:16:02 <sbp> quite a bit of uproar
12:16:35 <sbp> Duncan speaking, underlining the meaning of the amendment
12:17:15 <nsh> what's the parliabeef?
12:17:19 <sbp> "this is [background voice: car crash] not a car crash..."
12:17:36 <sbp> nsh: there's going to be an enquiry about the expenses row
12:17:47 <sbp> parliament are now debating whether to wait for the enquiry (opp.)
12:17:50 <nsh> more of a locomotive asplosion?
12:17:53 <sbp> or to pre-empt the enquiry (govt.)
12:18:02 <sbp> if the govt. fail, it will be a huge blow to them
12:18:13 <sbp> the whips are saying tantamount to a vote of confidence
12:18:29 <nsh> yayxcitement
12:18:39 * nsh wonders if i can webfeedx0r the parlichan
12:19:06 <sbp> haha
12:19:11 <sbp> Harman wanted to carry on
12:19:18 <sbp> then she had to give way to the chairman of the committee
12:19:28 <sbp> Sir George Young
12:19:49 <nsh> man
12:19:55 <nsh> mebbe i go watch on tellybox
12:20:00 <sbp> yeah, quite good this
12:20:23 <sbp> "usually the government is pleased when the govt. accept an amendment"
12:20:47 <sbp> er, no wait, he must have said something to the effect of: usually members are pleased...
12:20:56 <sbp> this was the speaker. not entirely sure what's going on about that
12:21:29 <nsh> my living room appears to have been squatted by an impromtue parish council meeting
12:21:49 <nsh> for the parish of middle engerfail
12:21:54 <nsh> never mind
12:22:04 <nsh> will suffice the sbpmmentry
12:22:47 <nsh> oh wait, mebbe bbc has feedsings
12:23:01 <nsh> oh, is work
12:23:14 <nsh> oh ffs
12:23:24 <nsh> some welshman died and it's all solemnityballs
12:23:49 <nsh> oh, it's back to revelry
12:23:52 <nsh> yayngland
12:24:03 <nsh> oh man
12:24:10 <nsh> dead on his brownpaws
12:24:28 <nsh> people are still choxelling at swineflus
12:26:06 * nsh should have invested in tami-flu when this started
12:26:13 <sbp> ha, yes
12:26:58 <Arnia> ARGH
12:27:01 <Arnia> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8026331.stm
12:27:02 <phenny> Arnia: BBC NEWS | Technology | Web tool 'as important as Google'
12:27:14 <sbp> oh dear, this is going to be Wolfram|Alpha isn't it?
12:27:18 <nsh> IS IT A WRENCH!??!
12:27:23 <sbp> yep!
12:27:46 <nsh> oh jaysus
12:27:48 <sbp> lot of shouting in the house
12:27:54 <Arnia> It removes 'linguistic fluff' apparently
12:28:21 <sbp> debate is quite complex, I should've looked into it in more detail
12:28:34 <nsh> HEY EVERYBODY LOOK LOOK LOOK AT ME - I'M GOING TO BE THE NEXT PERSON TO SPECTACUFAIL AT NATURAL LANGUAGE PROCESSING WEB QUERIES WITH ASTOUNDING OVERCONFIDENCE
12:28:47 <sbp> yeah, I'm really looking forward to it
12:28:48 <nsh> --Wolfram
12:28:51 * nsh too
12:29:16 <nsh> man, brown is repeating himself
12:30:09 <sbp> speaker tells the shouters to shut up
12:30:23 <nsh> if i was there i'd have voluminously overplay his original wordings each time he repeats himself
12:30:32 <nsh> because redundancy is annoying
12:30:46 <sbp> (argument being that if he transfers speaking to the shadow leader of the house, there'll just be shouting from the other side, and it'd be better if people were actually heard in a debate)
12:31:21 <nsh> mmm
12:32:51 <nsh> quite leary agreement going on
12:33:28 <nsh> it's the kind of "yeah" that makes your rapier hand twitch
12:33:30 <sbp> "in amidst all this..."
12:33:36 <sbp> Alan Duncan just said in amidst! heh
12:33:49 <nsh> you should sue for use of inadmist
12:33:52 <sbp> (first time I've heard it on telly as far as I can recally)
12:33:53 <nsh> *inamidst
12:34:02 <sbp> he'd making a good speech so far
12:34:12 <sbp> about the shape of parliament
12:34:17 * nsh is still on brown talking about ghurkas
12:34:26 <nsh> ghurkins
12:34:44 <nsh> oh
12:34:47 <sbp> nsh: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/playlive/bbc_parliament/
12:34:52 <nsh> cause i was watching questiontime not the live feed
12:34:53 <nsh> yeah
12:35:00 <_ulises> does anybody have access to Wolfram the dude? if so, could you kick him the nuts? kthx
12:35:03 <sbp> heh, heh
12:35:24 <_ulises> *in
12:35:31 <sbp> KICK HIM THE NUTS
12:35:33 <nsh> it's ok
12:35:54 <nsh> he's set himself up for the long kick nutsbye
12:36:16 <cre8radix> friends of noah
12:36:17 <cre8radix> :D
12:36:29 <nslater> whut?
12:36:54 <cre8radix> behold!
12:37:04 <nslater> wai mention my naem pls?
12:37:18 <sbp> Lembit Opik just called it an interesting speech too
12:37:29 <sbp> so I'm not the only one to think that. cheeky girls dude does too
12:38:03 <nsh> i do like duncan smith
12:38:25 <nsh> from the 3 minutes of reference ihow have
12:38:27 <nsh> *now
12:38:52 <cre8radix> nslater: "Welcome to the land of dead hiccups and extinguished light bulb"
12:38:54 <sbp> hehe
12:39:07 <sbp> Duncan Smith isn't speaking though
12:39:11 <sbp> but I expect you mean Alan Duncan
12:39:25 <sbp> presuming that now you're following the live feed?
12:39:29 <nsh> yeah that one
12:39:30 <nsh> yeah
12:39:39 <sbp> yeah. he's a bad comedian
12:39:44 <nsh> aye
12:39:45 <sbp> (he was terrible on HIGNFY the other day)
12:39:50 <nsh> oh, i keep missing that
12:39:54 <nsh> i hope someone's making a torrent
12:39:59 <sbp> this has been a good speech though
12:40:05 * nsh nods
12:40:06 <cre8radix> nslater: was just reading around on facebook
12:40:08 <sbp> much better than Harman's wittering on
12:40:30 <sbp> "will the (rt.) hn. mrm. give way?" "NO. oh, yes, of course I will"
12:40:44 <sbp> *mem.
12:43:01 <sbp> Duncan is basically saying: should we set our own terms and conditions, or leave it to an independent body? and his argument is that if they do it themselves, they cannot have the neutrality required to set it properly
12:43:59 <sbp> (therefore, independent body)
12:44:07 <nsh> in terms of quantum rather than principle?
12:44:22 <sbp> hmm?
12:44:32 <nsh> you might be behind me now
12:44:43 <nsh> the second body potentially looking into the matter
12:44:53 <nsh> some standards board
12:45:19 <sbp> the committee is I think what he means about the independent body
12:45:20 <nsh> monty remind me tomorrow to grep hansard for quantum
12:45:28 <nsh> monty, remind me tomorrow to grep hansard for quantum
12:45:36 <sbp> because basically the house can do what it wants
12:45:38 <nsh> meh
12:45:42 <sbp> or it can leave it to the committee
12:45:44 * nsh nods
12:46:10 <nsh> "let's admit it: timesheets are absurd"
12:46:11 <nsh> ++
12:46:21 * cre8radix hits teh roads
12:46:23 <sbp> aye, good this
12:46:25 <cre8radix> bye
12:46:27 <sbp> c'ya cre8radix
12:46:30 <cre8radix> :D
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12:46:34 <nsh> bainao
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12:47:33 <sbp> nsh: what's fun about following parliament is seeing then what the media say about it
12:47:39 <nsh> ah
12:47:51 *** d3llboy (i=d3llboy@gateway/tor/x-2bc9244706b71c4b) has joined #swhack
12:47:57 <nsh> it's a fine art of situationalist higher criticism
12:48:07 <sbp> and musing about the great big gulf introduced in the middle
12:48:13 <danja> so, what did they say sbp?
12:48:23 <sbp> they're still saying
12:48:47 <Arnia> The Guardian are reporting a government climbdown
12:48:57 <sbp> uri?
12:49:06 <Arnia> None yet... ticker
12:49:08 <Arnia> 'more soon'
12:49:10 <sbp> hmm
12:49:19 <nsh> "...if we're going to be any good at,, what we pretend to do"
12:49:29 <nsh> "if it's a (slightly camp voice) quickie"
12:49:37 <sbp> heh, heh. old fashioned sense of pretend, presumably...
12:49:57 <danja> :-)
12:50:12 <nsh> .ety pretend
12:50:13 <phenny> "c.1380, 'to profess or claim,' from O.Fr. pretendre 'to lay claim,' from L. prætendere 'stretch in front, put forward, allege,' from præ- 'before' + tendere 'to stretch,' from PIE base *ten- 'to stretch' (see tend)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=pretend
12:50:37 <danja> ...and politicians are born pretenders
12:51:28 <sbp> hmm. so as far as I understand it, members are not going to be whipped not to accept the main amendment
12:51:36 <sbp> members of the Labour party
12:51:50 <danja> does anyone trust Mandelson?
12:51:59 <sbp> of course not
12:52:02 <danja> he should be whipped
12:52:09 <sbp> yeah, Sir Stuart Bell just confirmed that
12:52:10 <Arnia> That's a sensible suggestion politically btw
12:52:13 <sbp> ah, I see the source of confusion now
12:52:21 <Arnia> If they whip them, then when the rebellion happens they look bad
12:52:32 <Arnia> If they make it a free vote, it is a free vote. They're not being directed
12:52:34 <sbp> because she carried on speaking as though they were going to make piecemeal changes, which is what the amendment goes against
12:52:55 <sbp> and that's what the chairman of the committee was annoyed about
12:52:57 <danja> what is the policy in question?
12:53:06 <sbp> danja: it's about the expenses row
12:53:10 <sbp> and how it should be treated
12:53:12 <danja> aha
12:53:20 <sbp> should they make changes (proposed by the govt.) now?
12:53:30 <sbp> or should they wait for a parliamentary committee to make suggestions?
12:54:01 <danja> I propose they log their expenses on twitter
12:54:12 <sbp> so the amendment's going to be accepted
12:54:23 <Arnia> I propose the dismantling of the party system :p
12:54:25 <sbp> what I don't get is why Harman was keeping up the anti-amendment rhetoric
12:55:00 <nslater> whats going on?
12:55:15 <danja> Arnia dismantled the state
12:55:54 <Arnia> I just put swhack in charge
12:56:03 <sbp> ooh, I see. okay, they're leaving other minor amendments in
12:56:17 <sbp> and some of the minor amendments can do things which are contrary to the major amendment
12:56:45 <sbp> so the house are going to have to vote on all the minor issues despite the fact that they're going to be voting on the major issue first!
12:56:47 <sbp> which is bonkers
12:56:51 <sbp> (as they've been saying)
12:56:53 <danja> heh
12:56:59 <sbp> (as the opp. have been saying...)
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12:57:18 <nslater> sbp: what are you talking about?
12:57:29 <sbp> nslater: the expenses row; see backscroll
12:57:39 <danja> no-one has a clue what sbp is on about
12:57:45 <nslater> okay
12:57:54 <danja> (usually)
12:58:22 <sbp> it's reasonably simple. again:
12:58:31 <sbp> the public are unhappy with the way MPs handle expenses
12:58:47 <sbp> the government lost a major vote, first of its kind for 30 years, the other day
12:58:55 <sbp> now they're holding a vote about the expenses thing
12:59:04 <danja> ooh, didn´t hear
12:59:05 <sbp> the govt. want to introduce a bunch of changes now
12:59:09 <nslater> a vote?
12:59:13 <sbp> the opp. don't want to introduce those bunch of changes
12:59:36 <sbp> whatever happens, a committee is going to look into it
12:59:46 <danja> hmm. Tories. Gravy Train.
12:59:47 <sbp> so the opp. want the committee, and only the committee, to handle it
13:00:24 <sbp> now, the committee members proposed an amendment to the text that the govt. proposed, and the government were going to whip its members to vote against it
13:00:36 <sbp> but now the govt. have said they won't bother whipping
13:00:50 <sbp> they've taken away their objection to the amendment
13:00:56 <danja> such commitment
13:00:58 <sbp> so as the Guardian say, there's been a climbdown
13:01:10 <sbp> *but*, there are also these minor amendments, which are basically pro-govt.
13:01:17 <sbp> and they're leaving those in, almost inexplicably
13:01:28 <sbp> and they're still supporting them
13:02:07 <sbp> so they're saying: we don't mind if you vote in the big anti-govt. amendment... but please vote in all the little pro-govt. amendments that completely contradict the other thing we don't mind you voting in favour of
13:02:19 <sbp> which as the opp. point out, makes somewhat of a mockery of the house!
13:02:21 <nslater> whippinh?
13:02:30 <Arnia> .wik whip politics
13:02:32 <phenny> "The whip is a role in party politics whose primary purpose is to ensure control of the formal decision-making process in a parliamentary legislature." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whip_(politics)
13:02:48 * Arnia is very anti-whip
13:02:54 <nsh> "there is such a thing as [?] that we passed in this house many years ago"
13:02:58 <nsh> what was that about sbp/arnia?
13:03:01 <nsh> "chipping"?
13:03:10 <sbp> sorry, missed that in having to explain
13:03:43 <nsh> ok
13:03:54 <nsh> ah, poor chap
13:03:57 <sbp> hehe
13:04:17 <nsh> what was he even trying to say
13:04:24 <sbp> no idea, chuckle
13:04:25 <nslater> hmm, whipping seems a bit, hmm...
13:04:27 <nsh> i could just hear some dude saying "keep talking"
13:04:30 <sbp> someone in the background sho... yeah!
13:04:42 <nslater> makes me wonder why I would ever vote for a local mp if he's going to mindless tow the party line
13:04:54 <nslater> *mindlessly
13:05:11 <sbp> nslater: do you know if yours does, for sure? across their voting record?
13:05:22 <sbp> on the issues that interest you, etc.
13:05:39 <nslater> nope, not looked into it, as ive never voted
13:05:41 <sbp> and can you know that for someone you're voting for if they have no house record?
13:05:49 <sbp> you could always ask a prospective member
13:05:50 <nslater> my local mp has not impressed me so far through personal correspondance
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13:06:11 <Arnia> The (supposed) benefit of whipping is to ensure that the house actually does something
13:06:24 <Arnia> Rather than descend into incoherence
13:06:49 <Arnia> However, what it really achieves (in my opinion) is the notion of safe seats
13:06:55 * nsh frowns
13:07:00 <nslater> http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/hugh_bayley/york%2C_city_of#votingrecord
13:07:02 <nslater> here we go
13:07:25 <nslater> "Voted very strongly for the Iraq war." :::(((
13:07:34 <nslater> "Voted strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws." :::(((
13:07:46 <nslater> "Voted strongly for introducing ID cards." :::(((
13:07:50 <Arnia> 'LibDem business manager'?
13:07:54 <sbp> hehe
13:07:57 <nslater> " Occasionally rebels against their party in this parliament. "
13:08:03 <sbp> .wik Liberal Democrats business manager
13:08:06 <phenny> "Lembit Öpik (pronounced [ˈlempit ˈøpˑik] in Estonian) (born 2 March 1965 in Bangor, Northern Ireland) is a British Liberal Democrat politician of Estonian descent." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lembit_%C3%96pik
13:08:08 <nslater> http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/1953#divisions
13:08:10 <sbp> ...what
13:08:12 <nslater> ^^ have you seen this?
13:08:44 <sbp> nslater: oh, interesting. didn't know about that, no!
13:08:46 <nslater> looks good, if I could understand what it meant
13:08:56 <sbp> it shows how often your MP goes against the whip
13:09:05 <sbp> actually, properly, rebels
13:09:14 <sbp> if you have a backbench MP then they might not be whipped
13:09:16 <nslater> sbp: theyworkforyou.com is made of win and boobs, and so is publicwhip.org.uk it seems. yeah, i understand what its meant to be showing me, but i cant make head nor tail of the actual data
13:09:20 <sbp> or whipped as often
13:09:27 <sbp> (they have whips for a certain number of rows, etc.)
13:09:32 <nslater> what does it mean "to whip"
13:09:41 <sbp> did you read the wikipedia article
13:09:41 <nslater> ... as in, to be whipped? is it a formal thing?
13:09:45 <nslater> well, i started...
13:09:49 <sbp> heh
13:10:06 <nslater> read the first three paras, and it seems to have many definitions
13:10:12 <Arnia> The Whips office is a formal thing
13:10:30 <Arnia> .wik House of Cards
13:10:30 <phenny> "House of Cards is a political thriller novel written by Michael Dobbs, a former Chief of Staff at Conservative Party headquarters, which was set at the end of Margaret Thatcher's tenure as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Cards
13:10:41 <nslater> hmm, reading the section on the united kingdom
13:11:02 <Arnia> Hm. David Heath isn't a great speaker :/
13:11:06 <sbp> nope
13:11:10 <sbp> waffling like a loon
13:11:38 <nslater> hmm...
13:11:56 <sbp> his only decent point so far is that if parliament can't manage their own expenses, then the public isn't going to have confidence in them to manage the country's expenses
13:11:57 <Arnia> 'People have different ideas' is not the most earth shattering statement
13:12:02 <sbp> heh, aye
13:12:17 <nslater> this whole thing seems a weird. i would like to think that an mp I have voted for would vote his mind on the important (non-administrative) issues, yet i can see the value in trying to maintain party coherence. dunno
13:12:33 <Arnia> As I've stated... I dislike the party system
13:12:49 <nslater> hmm, yeah - I can see why
13:13:10 <sbp> Alan Duncan seems to be reading a magazine. chox
13:13:20 <Arnia> I think it is unnecessary (damn David Heath putting a word in my head) given today's ability to watch and analyse voting records online
13:13:21 <sbp> presumably some parliamentary publication
13:13:23 <sbp> funny all the same
13:13:36 <nslater> heh, i really love this site:
13:13:38 <nslater> "This MP's speeches, in Hansard, are readable by an average 18–19 year old, going by the Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level score."
13:13:43 <Arnia> Finally given way
13:13:45 <nsh> to be fair though
13:13:48 <nslater> there's so much data here
13:14:05 <nslater> haha:
13:14:06 <nslater> "Has used three-word alliterative phrases (e.g. "she sells seashells") 248 times in debates — above average amongst MPs. (Why is this here?)"
13:14:08 <nsh> a case could be made that Mr Smith's porn film allowance is occassioned by parliamentary duties
13:14:11 * nslater clicks on that little link
13:14:34 <nslater> see:
13:14:34 <nslater> http://www.theyworkforyou.com/help/#numbers
13:14:40 <nsh> to wit: he's maried to a medusa
13:14:42 <Arnia> indeed
13:14:46 <Arnia> (to both)
13:14:49 <sbp> yeah
13:15:15 <Arnia> Oh the irony 'a matter of urgency' with this wittering
13:15:19 <sbp> heheh
13:15:26 <sbp> nice swipe at the PM
13:15:31 * nsh nods
13:15:37 <sbp> he seems to say something sensible once every five minutes
13:15:41 <sbp> and then it's a drone of filler words
13:15:55 <Arnia> ooh, that's interesting
13:15:55 <nsh> all patter no matter
13:16:00 <Arnia> LibDems courting Con
13:16:02 <nsh> .gc "all patter no matter"
13:16:03 <phenny> "all patter no matter": 0
13:16:05 <nsh> winrar
13:16:18 <Arnia> 'please invite us into a coalition'
13:16:24 * nsh doubts it
13:16:34 <nsh> oh...
13:16:36 <Arnia> Apparently? What
13:16:37 <sbp> "his own parliamentary party"?
13:16:40 <Arnia> That's weird
13:17:04 <Arnia> Translation: 'I don't like a presidential PM'
13:17:10 * nsh nods
13:17:21 <sbp> .wik David Brent
13:17:22 <phenny> "David Brent is a fictional white-collar office middle-manager and one of the principal characters from the BBC television mockumentary The Office, played by co-writer and director Ricky Gervais." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brent
13:17:25 <sbp> orite
13:17:26 <Arnia> hah
13:17:52 <sbp> he's getting quite good now
13:17:54 <sbp> weird guy
13:18:13 <[bjoern]> People of Swhack, hear my proclamation!
13:18:33 <sbp> we'll have to vote on whether we want to hear your proclamation
13:18:40 <nsh> dude's getting affect-y
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13:18:49 <Arnia> bollocks... stream got cut
13:18:52 <nsh> heiyo jeffarch
13:19:06 <sbp> "Earlier, David Cameron had said he would support the Committee's amendment"
13:19:13 <sbp> current caption. "duh"?
13:20:00 <_ulises> sbp: http://m.assetbar.com/achewood/uuabhwSBj
13:20:22 <nsh> ooo
13:20:23 <nsh> dissent!
13:20:48 <sbp> heh
13:21:00 <nsh> oh noes
13:21:15 <[bjoern]> And thus concludes my proclamation.
13:21:17 <nsh> sheerman: butthurt
13:21:26 <sbp> nsh: eh, yeah, just a boring Labour backbencher trying to get party favour
13:21:37 <sbp> brushed aside deftly by Heath, heh
13:21:39 * nsh nods
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13:22:03 <[bjoern]> "The U.S. prohibited an overflight by an Air France airliner because journalist Calvo Ospina was on board"
13:22:07 <sbp> note to Sheerman's constitutents: see what he did for you?
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13:23:49 <[bjoern]> so, anything exciting on teh intarwebs today?
13:23:59 <sbp> no, so we're all watching parliament
13:24:11 <nsh> WOFLRAM ALPHA HAS MADED INTARWEBS REDUNDANT
13:24:19 <sbp> oh yeah, that
13:24:21 <[bjoern]> parliament is watching you too, so, fair.
13:24:21 <nsh> WE ARE ALL WOLFRAMALPHA NOW
13:24:24 <sbp> but it's just anticipation
13:25:29 <sbp> Hugh Bayley!
13:25:53 <[bjoern]> why, is she hot?
13:25:54 <sbp> nslater: your MP just asked a question about Motion 4
13:26:24 <sbp> at least yours is actually there, then
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13:28:28 <[bjoern]> I heard Angela Merkel is to break through the roof in a ninja costume later today, and will then give a powerpoint presentation to parliament on the interesting subject of ... what was it?
13:28:37 <sbp> goblins
13:29:06 <[bjoern]> you could have tried harder
13:29:08 <[bjoern]> and still failed.
13:29:21 <sbp> [bjoern]: the government is having a bad time
13:29:32 <sbp> and it looked like they were going to stand up for a thing and get possibly defeated
13:29:38 <sbp> but they've done a kind of strange U-turn
13:29:41 <[bjoern]> As if I couldn't tell from Angela in a ninja costume.
13:29:51 <sbp> if they had have stood up and been defeated, it could have led to all sorts
13:30:02 <sbp> perhaps even an early general election, if it kept snowballing
13:30:27 <sbp> (hence the strange U-turn. the "strange" part stands for Labour)
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13:31:01 <[bjoern]> They could threaten to bring the middle east special envoy back.
13:31:35 <Arnia> nooooo
13:38:28 <sbp> hmm
13:38:48 <sbp> is there a parliamentary rule that says MPs other than your MP can't respond to you?
13:42:54 <Arnia> That would be weird with the cabinet
13:46:58 <[bjoern]> http://www.justice.gov.uk/news/newsrelease290409a.htm
13:47:11 <sbp> nice Whistler analogy
13:47:16 <Arnia> indeed
13:51:47 <Arnia> repeat repeat repeat
13:55:23 <Arnia> s/demand/command
13:56:16 <sbp> this committee will just waste more time? heh
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13:56:26 <Arnia> rather blunt
13:56:47 <[bjoern]> Having a plan is an achievement for many committees.
13:57:23 <Arnia> I love the government benches arguing amongst themselves
13:57:26 <danja> still talking uk parliament?
13:57:28 <sbp> aye
13:57:35 <sbp> and aye
13:57:51 <danja> .wik aye-aye
13:57:51 <phenny> "The Aye-aye (Daubentonia madagascariensis) is a strepsirrhine native to Madagascar that combines rodent-like teeth with a long, thin middle finger to fill the same ecological niche as a woodpecker." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aye-aye
13:59:34 <sbp> a Conservative farmer? get outta here...
13:59:43 <Arnia> heh
14:01:33 <Arnia> a Conservative asking for trade union input?
14:04:15 <Arnia> 'Nobody has used the words "legitimate expectation" in this debate.' wow, there is a surprise
14:04:23 <sbp> heh!
14:04:46 <sbp> and that's still true, he only mentioned them
14:04:48 <sbp> (ahem)
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14:04:54 <Arnia> :)
14:05:13 <sbp> hmm, didn't hear Hogg
14:17:09 *** Arnia has quit ()
14:19:26 <sbp> bugs me a little that they're calling the committee "independent"
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15:03:41 <sbp> Greg Mulholland seems a pretty sensible chap
15:04:42 <[bjoern]> remind me in 133 minutes to shop or starve - you decide.
15:05:07 <[bjoern]> somebody better remind me.
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15:08:07 <Arnia> She's nervous
15:08:30 *** mmmmmrob has quit ("we're off to see the wizard...")
15:10:02 <Arnia> VERY nervous
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15:11:05 <[bjoern]> She abducted Monty and afraid of getting caught
15:11:21 <nsh> sbp
15:11:33 <nsh> remind me what the government wants from this vote
15:12:28 <sbp> to push through their own initiatives for expenses reform
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15:12:35 <nsh> wow, more butthurt
15:12:51 <sbp> mainly because (yeah, this lady is funny) the headlines are corrosive right now
15:13:08 <sbp> so they want to apply a quick salve
15:13:12 <[bjoern]> .gc "british spanking"
15:13:13 <phenny> "british spanking": 14,700
15:13:16 <nsh> oh
15:13:32 <[bjoern]> Blitzlegislation.
15:13:33 <sbp> (the nervous lady was funny too. not sure why she scripted herself)
15:13:37 <nsh> from the sound of things, this is not going to end well for
15:13:40 <nsh> the proposals
15:13:46 <nsh> then again, room is pretty empty
15:14:03 <sbp> I'm always suspicious of scriptings
15:14:03 * nsh doesn't understand why people are allowed to have an equal vote without attending the debate
15:14:15 <sbp> yeah, dunno. pretty silly
15:14:23 <sbp> perhaps because of the old security problem
15:14:27 <sbp> they still lock the doors and whatnot
15:14:34 <nsh> mmm
15:15:10 <nsh> commute ffs
15:15:14 <nsh> it's not difficult
15:15:30 <sbp> on whether it'll end well for the proposals, I'm not sure
15:15:42 <nsh> mmm
15:15:43 <sbp> the problem is that some of the proposals seem to be getting quasi-accepted, and some are controversial
15:15:48 <sbp> so I have a feeling that some will pass and some won't
15:16:03 <nsh> but doesn't the whole thing swing one way or the other?
15:16:04 <sbp> so the government's U-turn will half succeed
15:16:10 <nsh> hmm
15:16:12 <sbp> well it's meant to, yeah
15:16:36 <sbp> what remains to be seen is how whatever is accepted now compares against the finding of the committee. that will be very interesting
15:16:43 <sbp> so let's say they vote to drop that 25 mile zone
15:16:52 <sbp> and then the committee says hey, wait, it was a good idea
15:16:57 <sbp> then what? that'll be very interesting
15:17:14 <nsh> mmm
15:17:22 <sbp> and that's one of the things that's been a recurring motif of the debate
15:17:31 <sbp> that when the committee comes back, the house is not obliged even then to listen
15:17:48 <sbp> and the PM always (regardless of party) votes to do what is going to get them votes
15:17:58 <sbp> which is to not give MPs more salary
15:18:02 <[bjoern]> Half a U-Turn is ...
15:18:32 <sbp> which has led to this situation, that MPs are getting way underpaid, so they lean heavily on this expenses system, and now that's erupted in scandal because some have leaned on it a little *too* hard. (okay, a lot too hard)
15:19:02 <sbp> so what they want now is that whatever the committee says, the house will just accept it without stuffing around trying to chip it away with whips and loopholes
15:19:28 <sbp> they being mainly backbenchers...
15:19:52 <[bjoern]> All this hardness is really an obscure reference to the porn payment scandal earlier, right?
15:20:06 <sbp> hardness?
15:20:34 <nsh> 65,000 pa is underpaid?
15:20:56 <sbp> nsh: yes, I think so
15:21:02 <Arnia> nsh: two homes and 15-16 hour days
15:21:03 * nsh would be willing to step in for anyone who'd feel more bouyant in the private sector
15:21:12 <[bjoern]> well heavily erupted to *hard*, according to you.
15:21:13 <nsh> borrow a tent from climate camp
15:21:21 <nsh> everyone's a winner
15:21:23 <sbp> as much as some of them are complete idiots, they do work very, very hard
15:21:25 <sbp> even the idiots
15:21:29 * nsh nods
15:21:37 <[bjoern]> especially the idiots.
15:21:57 <sbp> especially if that's a euphemism for the cabinet, yes
15:22:45 <Arnia> I don't think the presumption that they're corrupt is helpful
15:22:54 <nsh> no, it's essential
15:23:12 <nsh> (60% glib)
15:23:19 <Arnia> If you assume people are corrupt, they will feel they have nothing to lose by being corrupt
15:23:44 <nsh> and this is why cash-registers are on the customer side of the desk
15:23:51 <nsh> wait
15:24:37 <sbp> if you assume they'll all be corrupt, sure
15:24:42 <Arnia> That's a strawman... corruption is not the same thing as theft. Corruption is more about exploitation and tends to be hidden. Less immediate observation.
15:24:44 <sbp> but only a newspaper would make that assumption, surely?
15:24:50 <nsh> the point is to make it moot, arnia
15:25:01 <nsh> to minimalise the potential for corruption
15:25:06 <nsh> where its potential serves no purpose
15:25:43 <Arnia> But the proposal to eliminate second home allowance won't do that... it will unfairly disadvantage the backbenchers from London
15:25:46 <nsh> or is there a purpose served by tieing the purse-strings to the heart-strings of members?
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15:26:06 * nsh apathetic on second homes; in favour of independent review
15:27:40 <Arnia> I'm in favour of the independent inquiry. I do worry about the idea of adopting the inquiry's recommendations without debate
15:28:03 <sbp> oh man, we're having the same debate parliament is having
15:28:05 <Arnia> nslater: your MP
15:28:35 <sbp> he's on the same issue as earlier
15:28:42 <nsh> it would seem participation in the debate might be better a compenent of the review, than a subversion of its independence consequence to it
15:28:47 <sbp> clearly rather pepped about pensions
15:28:59 <nsh> (participation of members)
15:29:01 <Arnia> sbp: as pepped as he can get
15:29:05 <sbp> heh, heh
15:29:16 <Arnia> I liked the point about employees
15:29:19 <Arnia> (earlier)
15:31:37 <sbp> nsh: note also that it isn't really independent
15:31:41 <sbp> I don't know why they keep calling it so
15:31:46 <sbp> it's very misleading. it's not independent
15:31:50 <sbp> it's made up of members of the house
15:31:58 <sbp> it's *cross-party*, yes
15:32:00 *** kpreid has quit ()
15:32:03 <sbp> but not at all independent
15:32:12 <Arnia> What about the Lords?
15:32:33 <sbp> what about the Lords?
15:32:34 <nsh> did he just say he thought something was "amphibious"?
15:32:37 * nsh only half listening
15:32:42 <Arnia> invidious
15:32:47 <nsh> ah, makes more sense
15:32:49 <nsh> .ety invidious
15:32:50 <phenny> "1606, from L. invidiosus 'envious,' from invidia 'ill will' (see envy)." - http://etymonline.com/?term=invidious
15:32:56 <Arnia> sbp: are the Lords represented on the committee?
15:32:58 <nsh> .oed invidious
15:32:58 <phenny> invidious (ety. ad. L. invidiōs-us (see -ous...) * 1. Of a charge, complaint, report, etc.: Tending or fitted to excite odium, unpopularity, or ill feeling against some one. Now rare., * 2. Of an action, duty, topic, etc.: Entailing odium or ill will upon the person performing, discharging,...
15:33:00 <sbp> Jo Swinson, uses Twitter, boos at new technology. chuckle
15:33:11 <sbp> "[the PM] hasn't quite got the hang of it"
15:33:20 <sbp> dear oh dear
15:33:25 <nsh> how old is this swinson?
15:33:29 <sbp> if she's a representation of what MPs are going to be like in 10 years...
15:33:35 <nsh> oh man
15:33:40 <sbp> "the PM shouldn't have disabled his youtube comments!!!"
15:33:45 <nsh> she's complaining about disabling the youtube comments...
15:33:48 <nsh> oh man
15:33:51 <nsh> i hope they enable them in future
15:33:54 <nsh> and discuss them in the house
15:34:01 <sbp> heh, heh
15:34:01 <Arnia> Diane Abbott always looks considered
15:34:05 <Arnia> It is quite a skill
15:34:27 <Arnia> She also always looks permanently cold
15:34:36 <Arnia> .wik Jo Swinson
15:34:38 <phenny> "Jo Swinson (born 5 February 1980) is the Liberal Democrat Member of Parliament for East Dunbartonshire constituency, to the north of Glasgow in Scotland." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_Swinson
15:34:45 <Arnia> bloody hell
15:34:51 <nsh> aye
15:34:51 <sbp> she has a sympathy with the leader of the house?
15:34:52 <Arnia> She's only three years older than me :/
15:35:05 <nsh> bwaha sbp
15:36:43 <[bjoern]> Our youngest are younger, I believe.
15:36:44 <Arnia> Ow... she's making enemies
15:36:58 <sbp> or would be if anyone were listening
15:37:09 <Arnia> 'you're all idiots' is the import I get
15:37:17 <[bjoern]> pedia has perrible pix
15:38:00 <nsh> oho
15:38:04 <Arnia> 'sure it wouldn't be impossible' is an awful argument in my opinion
15:38:07 <nsh> house of commons property portfolio
15:38:12 <nsh> it's not an argument arnia
15:38:13 <nsh> newb
15:38:16 <nsh> it's a turn of phrase
15:38:29 <nsh> not that i think this idea will be well recieved
15:38:57 <Arnia> It is an argument... she's (part) justifying that position by that phrase. That makes it an argument
15:39:22 <Arnia> The East Midlands and Scotland are getting lots of house time
15:40:12 * nsh frowns
15:40:14 <Arnia> ooh, he called Tony Benn his mentor
15:40:21 <Arnia> That's interesting
15:40:24 <sbp> yeah. polling station and police station, two checks
15:40:40 <sbp> which was true before the Damian Green controversy :-)
15:41:13 <sbp> oh man, he's got a bath plug prop
15:41:20 <Arnia> ...
15:41:21 <sbp> hahaha
15:41:26 <sbp> good line though
15:41:30 <[bjoern]> British Prime Minister just announced Free Boobs for Everyone.
15:42:15 <[bjoern]> "Israel has told the European Union to stop criticising Benjamin Netanyahu's government or risk being excluded from future Middle East peace negotiations." - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8026941.stm
15:42:22 * Arnia blinks
15:42:39 <sbp> wow, only twenty mins to go till voting
15:42:41 <Arnia> Bath plugs, dear me
15:43:28 <Arnia> absolute ban on outside interests :/
15:43:35 <Arnia> Depends how you define 'interest'
15:43:48 <Arnia> And that was a Conservative saying that...
15:43:55 <Arnia> weird debate this
15:43:58 <sbp> yeah, but look at his tie
15:44:05 <sbp> that is not a conservative tie
15:44:13 <Arnia> True... but he is MP for Buckingham
15:44:23 <Arnia> That's very conservative
15:44:34 <sbp> a man of many contradictions
15:45:08 <Arnia> What was Widecombe saying?
15:45:16 <Arnia> and to whom?
15:45:18 <sbp> she was talking about her book wasn't she?
15:45:28 <nsh> lol
15:45:48 <sbp> oh, she was also saying about her staff
15:45:52 <Arnia> Shadow Deputy Leader of the House... that has to be one of the lowest positions in the Commons
15:46:06 <sbp> when she retires, next year, her staff would want to go too
15:46:18 <sbp> not be transferred, as might be the case if their loyalty is to the house
15:46:29 <[bjoern]> 'Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has so far refused to back the principle of a Palestinian state while Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has said the Israeli-Palestinian peace process is a "dead end".'
15:46:33 <sbp> as one of the resolutions proposed today would say
15:46:50 <sbp> one of the motions
15:46:57 * Arnia does think constituency staff should have loyalty to the MP
15:47:16 <Arnia> They have to do so much cover work
15:47:35 <Arnia> Or at least to the constituency rather than the house
15:48:44 <sbp> aye
15:48:50 * nsh agree
15:49:33 <Arnia> otherwise, we may as well abandon the constituency system; if everything is done centrally by parliament
15:50:00 <sbp> how would we elect people to a central parliament?
15:50:08 <sbp> vote for anyone you like in the country?
15:50:09 <Arnia> PR?
15:50:16 <Arnia> Regional lists?
15:50:26 <Arnia> STV?
15:50:38 <Arnia> ugh
15:50:47 <sbp> I'd quite like to be able to vote for anyone
15:50:58 <sbp> but I don't really want David Beckham ending up as PM
15:51:01 <sbp> which is what would happen
15:51:04 * Arnia prefers a constituency
15:51:18 <Arnia> But without parties and whips
15:51:43 * Arnia thinks parliamentary terminology is reminiscent of that of an S&M club
15:51:46 <sbp> she looked pleased with herself
15:51:57 <Arnia> missed that
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15:52:08 <sbp> "aww yeah, the shadow deputy leader of the house — the shadow deputy leader! — gave me a shout out!"
15:52:17 <Arnia> who was that?
15:52:25 <sbp> dunno, he didn't shout very loud
15:52:34 <sbp> member for... east derbyshire?
15:52:36 <sbp> something like that
15:52:44 <Arnia> .wik MP East Derbyshire
15:52:47 <phenny> "North East Derbyshire is a county constituency represented in the House of Commons of the Parliament of the United Kingdom." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_East_Derbyshire_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
15:53:05 <sbp> yes, Natascha Engel
15:53:30 <Arnia> He sounds really bad
15:53:38 <sbp> yeah, stumbling and bumbling
15:53:42 <Arnia> Like he knows he's lost
15:53:51 <Arnia> Harman looks smug
15:53:56 <sbp> she always does
15:54:05 <Arnia> Even more so than normal
15:54:08 <sbp> heh, heh
15:54:14 <cre8radix> re:hi
15:54:18 <sbp> yo
15:54:38 <Arnia> He's really picking out phrases and missing context
15:54:41 <sbp> she's telling him not to give way
15:54:52 <Arnia> That was loud and blatant
15:54:57 <sbp> yeah
15:55:23 <Arnia> Does Harman have a PPS?
15:55:43 <Arnia> Jo Swinson looks utterly perplexed
15:55:50 <sbp> I presume she does
15:56:12 <[bjoern]> established electoral systems come from a time when there were polymaths.
15:56:38 * Arnia elects Stephen Fry
15:56:53 <sbp> hmm. can't find who, if so
15:57:11 <sbp> used to be Martin Linton, apparently
15:57:54 <Arnia> Why are the deputy leaders speaking?
15:57:58 <sbp> unsure
15:58:19 <sbp> gives them some exercise, perhaps
15:58:23 <[bjoern]> to pass the time til the vote.
15:58:28 <sbp> seems the wrong time to give them that exercise though
15:58:34 <Arnia> .wik Chief Whip of the House of Commons
15:58:36 <phenny> "The Chief Whip is a political office in some legislatures assigned to an elected member whose task is to administer the whipping system that ensures that members of the party attend and vote as the party leadership desires." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Whip
15:59:17 <sbp> ooh, he's repeating a call to vote for the motions
15:59:43 <sbp> voting
15:59:50 <sbp> aye for amendment j
16:00:00 <sbp> that was the major amendment, accepted by the government
16:00:36 <sbp> question about the subsequent similar amendments
16:00:51 <sbp> they must be voted on
16:01:00 <sbp> haha
16:01:28 <sbp> Widdecombe pushing the point
16:01:39 <sbp> speaker is obliged by the house to put the motions
16:02:13 <sbp> follow along here: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmagenda/ob90430.htm
16:02:31 <sbp> motion 2
16:02:43 <Arnia> Good grief... this reminds me of badly chaired JCR meetings
16:02:45 <sbp> voting on 2
16:02:51 <Arnia> 'is everyone clear what we're voting on?'
16:02:54 <sbp> hehe
16:04:28 <Arnia> Good that the BBC know
16:04:41 <Arnia> although the squashed picture is upsetting
16:05:27 <sbp> I have an odd feeling this'll be ayed
16:05:39 <Arnia> yeah, same
16:07:15 <sbp> why didn't they vote on the amendments to it?
16:07:16 <Arnia> this is whipped?
16:07:19 <sbp> were they withdrawn?
16:07:25 <sbp> there's a Conservative front bench whip
16:07:28 <sbp> not sure about Labour
16:08:59 <cre8radix> Arnia: wanna help me spread free licensing for music works in germany?
16:09:05 <cre8radix> :)
16:09:29 <nsh> what did i miss?
16:09:36 <cre8radix> http://www.pledgebank.com/gemahacksupport | http://www.pledgebank.com/gemahacken
16:09:40 <nsh> been choring about on paypal for the last 20 minutes
16:09:41 <nsh> oh yeah
16:09:43 <nsh> need to chore about some more
16:11:27 <sbp> locking
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16:14:18 <Arnia> cre8radix: mm?
16:14:21 <sbp> high turnout
16:14:26 <sbp> here we go
16:14:27 <sbp> returns
16:14:31 <nsh> here comes teh dissent
16:14:35 <Arnia> There weren't that many there before I'm sure
16:14:36 <sbp> 355 aye
16:14:39 <sbp> 39 no!
16:14:51 <[bjoern]> no not nay?
16:14:56 <nsh> aha
16:15:06 <sbp> noe
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16:15:40 <sbp> okay, motion 3
16:15:49 <sbp> ugh, it's going to be a procession of government mini-victories
16:15:58 <nsh> weaknass
16:16:02 <cre8radix> .wik GEMA
16:16:02 <phenny> "Georgia Emergency Management Agency" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEMA
16:16:08 <cre8radix> lol
16:17:20 <cre8radix> arnia: the GEMA is the german society for musical performing and mechanical reproduction rights
16:17:33 <sbp> this is a really stupid one
16:17:38 <sbp> bet it's going to go through anyway
16:17:45 <sbp> if the first passed 355/39 for goodness' sake
16:17:50 <cre8radix> they don't allow their members to use creative commons licenses
16:18:29 <cre8radix> Arnia: since it's the only society for musical performing and mechanical reproduction rights in germany, they have a monopoly
16:18:57 <cre8radix> Arnia: i want to arouse public interest and hold a press conference
16:19:08 <Arnia> ah, to accomplish what?
16:19:56 <cre8radix> so i am looking for people from the international community to support me by signing the pledge
16:20:22 <cre8radix> Arnia: to put pressureon the gema
16:20:46 <cre8radix> so they allow their members to use cc-licensing
16:20:59 <Arnia> cre8radix: but how will that put effective pressure?
16:23:51 <sbp> locking
16:24:58 <cre8radix> because 1.) there is a large number of free culture activists in germany
16:25:01 <cre8radix> Arnia: ^
16:25:15 <cre8radix> and i was a member for 15 years
16:25:54 <Arnia> cre8radix: there may be so, but I do not see how a press conference on its own will further your goals
16:25:58 <sbp> returns
16:26:05 <Arnia> You need a political plan to harness numbers
16:26:06 <sbp> ayes to the right 305
16:26:08 <sbp> noes to the left 31
16:26:30 <cre8radix> because the gema has a bad image by now and it's getting worse
16:26:30 <Arnia> and to make it impossible for GEMA to keep their position
16:27:06 <cre8radix> they are telling lies about creative commons
16:27:35 <Arnia> Yes, but you have to make it politically embarrassing for them
16:27:39 <sbp> oh, this is the one about being subject to the house
16:27:41 <cre8radix> they are restricting the use of their own members works
16:27:51 <sbp> but they're voting on the amendment
16:27:58 <Arnia> cre8radix: yes, but that's not going to win you the debate
16:27:59 <sbp> so basically on just a bit of the motion
16:28:06 <Arnia> cre8radix: just stating things isn't how you win
16:28:24 <cre8radix> that's how i put public pressure on them
16:28:54 <cre8radix> i had an article in the spiegel before and they didn't really like that
16:28:56 <sbp> so ayes here would be a defeat against the government proposal
16:29:23 *** jeffarch (n=jeff@70-41-156-138.cust.wildblue.net) has joined #swhack
16:29:54 <cre8radix> Arnia: i know a lot of successful bands in germany
16:30:18 <jessica> Does anyone else ever feel like the Internet has lost its pall?
16:30:20 <cre8radix> i can't possibly make a song with them without losing all rights on the work
16:30:38 <cre8radix> only because they are members of the gema
16:30:44 <Arnia> cre8radix: yes, you're explaining why you're right
16:30:53 <Arnia> cre8radix: that doesn't win a debate in the public eye
16:30:56 <cre8radix> people must know that
16:31:14 <Arnia> cre8radix: to win, you have to be emotionally resonant and remove all respect for your opposition
16:31:28 <Arnia> Otherwise they'll do that to you, and in spite of you being more reasoned you'll lose
16:31:29 <cre8radix> i'll probably go all the way to the supreme court
16:31:52 * Arnia has a rather harsh approach to politics
16:31:56 <Arnia> well, cynical
16:32:10 <cre8radix> :)
16:32:33 <cre8radix> i will drag them through the dirt, arnia, 'tis gonna be a blast
16:32:37 <nsh> jessica, in which respect?
16:32:48 <jessica> nsh: I dunno, just doesn't really have any zip to it anymore.
16:32:59 <nsh> then yes, i agree
16:33:10 <sbp> since about 2001
16:33:18 <nsh> it's all flacidly econolined and homogelamed
16:33:34 <nsh> it is a gammy leg of its former self
16:33:49 <nsh> and nothing short of a corpoectomy will save it
16:33:57 <nsh> *corporectomy
16:34:22 <nsh> also, there are not nearly enough revolving flame skulls
16:34:22 <sbp> ah, BBC corrected themselves and now display information about the amendment
16:35:25 <sbp> locking
16:36:07 <jessica> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6194874.ece ... donkey suicide patrols?
16:37:05 <sbp> returns
16:37:11 <sbp> ayes to the right 96
16:37:15 <sbp> noes to the left 285
16:37:20 <sbp> sigh
16:37:21 <cre8radix> Arnia: :)
16:37:27 <[bjoern]> will my swine flu mask protect me from donkey bombers?
16:37:35 <Arnia> fuck
16:37:44 <[bjoern]> Okay.
16:38:18 <nsh> what did he shout?
16:38:26 <sbp> nsh: "NO", I think
16:38:32 <nsh> but people laughed
16:38:36 <sbp> yeah, unsure why
16:38:39 <nsh> hrmm
16:38:46 <sbp> maybe it was just because he was so violent about his confirmation
16:38:49 <nsh> i think there are FREAKIN LAYERS to this we're not aware of
16:38:51 <nsh> LAYERS MAN
16:38:53 <[bjoern]> "NU" then perhaps
16:38:54 <sbp> aye, heh
16:39:40 <sbp> so now it's going to be like 300 - 2
16:39:58 <[bjoern]> good movie title
16:40:10 *** MoiraA (n=MoiraA@pdpc/supporter/active/moiraa) has joined #swhack
16:40:25 <jessica> "Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit Tamiflu."
16:40:49 <nsh> sbp
16:40:55 <nsh> what's all this "teller" stuff about?
16:40:59 <nsh> i has not teh knows
16:41:03 <sbp> nsh: the tellers are the people who count the votes
16:41:07 <[bjoern]> .leo Teller
16:41:08 <phenny> teller = der Automat, der Bankangestellte (ein Bankangestellter) | die Bankangestellte, der Bankkassierer, der Erzähler, der Kassier (Österr.; Schweiz; Süddt.)
16:41:09 <phenny> fortune-teller also: fortuneteller = der Wahrsager | die Wahrsagerin
16:41:10 <nsh> oh right
16:41:10 <phenny> der Teller - Pl. die Teller = dish
16:41:11 <phenny> — http://dict.leo.org/ende?search=Teller
16:41:45 <jessica> Is there as much concern over Aporkalypse 2009 on that side of the pond?
16:42:02 <nsh> and what is the main question?
16:42:08 <[bjoern]> Eurovision is soonishly.
16:42:22 <nsh> jessica, i'm concerned that egypt is wasting all their baconchop incubators
16:42:44 *** panni_ (n=hannes@77-21-94-72-dynip.superkabel.de) has joined #swhack
16:42:52 <jessica> In a Muslim country, you're looking for ham?
16:42:56 <nsh> and that there will not be a spectacularly consequential population reduction
16:43:09 <nsh> 10% christian minority does a lot of pork farming
16:43:15 <nsh> but it is not looked on approvingly
16:43:19 * jessica notes that the number of Copts in Egypt are estimated as 12%, whereas the number of churchgoing Swedes a few years back was counted at 10%.
16:43:26 <nsh> point is, 200,000 pigs are going to not become food
16:43:29 <sbp> nsh: question they'd voting on now is:
16:43:30 <nsh> and that's a terrible terrible thing
16:43:30 <sbp> (1)
16:43:30 <sbp> That, in the opinion of this House, staff who work for an hon. Member should be employed by the House, as a personal appointment and managed by the hon. Member; and
16:43:30 <sbp> (2)
16:43:30 <sbp> That the House of Commons Commission shall consider this decision and make recommendations for its implementation, including any transitional provisions which may be necessary, by 29 October 2009.
16:43:36 <sbp> per http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmagenda/ob90430.htm
16:43:51 <sbp> merely a formality really
16:43:59 <sbp> amendment a was to delete (1)
16:43:59 <nsh> oh, borings
16:44:04 <sbp> but that didn't pass
16:44:12 <sbp> so the whole thing is obviously going to go through
16:44:26 <nsh> weak
16:44:53 <jessica> sbp, have I sent you to (IM)agna Carta before?
16:44:59 <jessica> I was thinking it was a major d8uv/sbp type thing.
16:45:02 <sbp> nope?
16:45:35 <cre8radix> .calc 10 Pound in Euro
16:45:38 <phenny> 10 Pound in Euro = 10 Pound -> 1.32459 dollar (currency) Euro
16:45:51 <cre8radix> .calc 10 Pound in Euros
16:45:53 <phenny> 10 Pound in Euros = 10 Pound -> 1.32364 dollar (currency) Euros
16:45:53 <jessica> sbp: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2008/4/25rhode.html
16:46:06 <jessica> best line: IOHANNESRex: chek out my facebook, im under chad divineright ... its a faker!!!
16:46:43 <sbp> locking
16:47:01 <[bjoern]> apparently one contestant for eurovision may be "Gipsy.cz"
16:47:07 <[bjoern]> .wik Gipsy.cz
16:47:07 <phenny> "Roma Hip hop artists Gipsy.cz played at Glastonbury 2007 festival." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gipsy.cz
16:47:40 <sbp> so anyway, yeah
16:47:52 <sbp> they said earlier if they pass 1 and all the others, they'll look pretty damn stupid
16:48:00 <sbp> and one has to conclude: they look pretty damn stupid
16:48:03 <cre8radix> sbp: what's that dollar stuff?
16:48:19 <sbp> inuo
16:48:22 <sbp> try using .c
16:48:34 <cre8radix> .c 10 Pound in Euros
16:48:35 <phenny> 10 British pounds = 11.182463 Euros
16:48:40 <cre8radix> ah
16:48:58 <[bjoern]> that rate used to be different
16:49:04 <cre8radix> yep
16:49:05 <Arnia> .c 80 euro in pounds
16:49:05 <phenny> 80 Euros = 71.5405898 British pounds
16:49:29 <sbp> returns
16:49:35 <sbp> ayes to the right 280
16:49:38 <sbp> noes to the left 100
16:49:55 *** lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
16:50:04 <sbp> 5...
16:50:18 <[bjoern]> ...<°><<<
16:50:37 <sbp> this is on having to note every little expense regardless of size
16:50:57 <[bjoern]> So they want that size does not matter.
16:51:05 <sbp> yea
16:51:14 <sbp> ...h
16:58:42 <sbp> locking
16:59:41 <sbp> I guess MPs don't want to have to explain why they voted against this stuff
16:59:54 <sbp> "so, Mr. Blah Blah, why did you vote against accountability for MPs?"
17:01:03 <[bjoern]> "They threatened to bring Blair back if I do"
17:01:12 <cre8radix> lol
17:01:13 <cre8radix> http://imgur.com/27K39.jpg
17:01:18 <sbp> returns
17:01:25 <sbp> ayes to the right 348
17:01:27 <sbp> noes to the left 22
17:02:02 * sbp turns over and watches The Simpsons
17:02:35 <[bjoern]> Yeah, let Wogan finish the reporting.
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17:23:35 *** lmorchard is now known as lmorchard|away
17:23:44 *** lmorchard|away is now known as lmorchard
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17:31:55 *** kpreid (n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net) has joined #swhack
17:34:24 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8027606.stm
17:34:26 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | Politics | Brown wins expenses reform votes
17:37:15 *** sqrt2 (n=ben@laforge.ip6.krummgasse.at) has joined #swhack
17:37:20 <nslater> hello sqrt2
17:38:27 <sbp> hey sqrt2
17:38:55 <sqrt2> that's funny
17:39:00 <nslater> what is? where?
17:39:02 <sqrt2> i've been idling here for a week or so
17:39:19 <sqrt2> now i have a unvoluntary disconnect and on rejoin i'm greeted twice :)
17:39:32 <sbp> yeah we couldn't be bothered to pay attention to you before
17:39:36 <nslater> we're very busy people
17:39:38 <sbp> mainly I was just following nslater's lead
17:39:52 <sbp> anyway, welcome to Swhack
17:39:56 <sbp> this is a publically logged channel
17:40:07 <nslater> publiclly erotic, too
17:40:07 <sqrt2> i believe this is the home of phenny, right?
17:40:19 <sqrt2> and publically german
17:40:26 <nslater> DOWN WITH GERMANS!
17:40:26 <sbp> not the home of phenny, no
17:40:31 <nslater> that would be #phenny
17:40:32 <sbp> phenny is unsupported, as it says on the phenny website
17:40:52 <nslater> your best hope for support is me or sbp
17:41:02 <sqrt2> i don't run a phenny
17:41:07 <nslater> ... your chances are a function of your breast size
17:41:19 <sqrt2> i've been just pointed here indirectly. and i stayed because of the /topic
17:41:29 <nslater> you stayed for the topic!?
17:41:32 * nslater blinks
17:41:32 <sbp> weird. the topic isn't always German
17:41:45 <sqrt2> it's weird enough for me to stay
17:41:54 *** sbp changed the topic to: "<nslater> ... your chances are a function of your breast size"
17:42:10 <sbp> good idea: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01394/traffic-cop-screcr_1394152i.jpg
17:42:24 <nslater> bwahaha
17:42:32 <sbp> except that the Telegraph call it a “cop”
17:42:35 <nslater> sbp: did you see my comment about breast buds? did you know about this!?
17:42:37 <sbp> when they should know better, really
17:42:44 <sbp> yeah
17:42:47 <nslater> totally mental
17:43:11 <nslater> what would happen if you swapped a man's breast buds with a girl
17:43:16 <nslater> both ways, if you see what i mean
17:43:21 <nslater> which person would end up with boobies?
17:43:42 <nslater> i.e. is it all hormonal, or partially down to the breast buds themselves
17:44:07 <nslater> i should totally post this to answers.yahoo.com
17:45:53 <sbp> or make a youtube video about it
17:45:57 <sbp> and open up the comments
17:47:21 <nslater> i actually wasn't joking, for ultimalulz:
17:47:23 <nslater> .title http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090430104710AAWTFMH
17:47:25 <phenny> nslater: If you swapped the breast buds of a girl and a boy before puberty, which one of them would develop breasts? - Yahoo! Answers
17:48:11 <nslater> HOW IS BOOBBY FORMED?
17:48:14 <sbp> .title http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8027629.stm
17:48:16 <phenny> sbp: BBC NEWS | Politics | What were the MPs arguing about?
17:48:35 <sbp> see, we worked it out for ourselves
17:48:43 *** sqrt2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
17:48:44 <sbp> we don't need confused schoolkids
17:49:03 <sbp> despite the fact that it was utterly mad
17:49:35 <nslater> hmm...
17:49:37 <nslater> .wik Thelarche
17:49:38 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Thelarche".
17:49:48 <nslater> are you kidding me? phenny bug! phenny bug!
17:50:00 <nslater> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelarche
17:50:08 <sbp> .title http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelarche
17:50:08 <phenny> Can't connect to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelarche
17:50:11 <sbp> .head http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelarche
17:50:12 <phenny> sbp: 200, text/html, utf-8, 2009-04-24 17:34:32 UTC, 7262 bytes
17:50:36 <sbp> .wik Thelarche
17:50:37 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Thelarche".
17:50:48 <nslater> hmm, men and women both can get them, which makes sense...
17:50:59 <nslater> my question clearly doesn't though. good job I did it for teh lulz
17:51:41 <sbp> yeah good job you didn't tattoo your question onto the lips of a celebrity pollack
17:52:14 *** sqrt2 (n=ben@laforge.ip6.krummgasse.at) has joined #swhack
17:52:21 <sbp> hey sqrt2
17:52:47 <nslater> hey sbp
17:52:53 <nslater> damn, stupid jokefail
17:53:07 <sqrt2> now i know. when i want to be greeted, i'll just crash my usb controller again and reboot
17:53:08 <sbp> hi nslater
17:55:29 <nslater> sbp: got two answers already!
17:55:51 <sbp> three
17:55:59 <nslater> wow. heh
17:56:31 <sbp> report them for abuse
17:56:36 <sbp> they all used dirty words
17:56:55 <sbp> one of them even said "naturally"
17:57:37 <nslater> fucking perverts.
17:57:54 <sbp> the person who deals with abuse reports on Yahoo! Answers must have a pretty bad job
17:58:02 <nslater> .oO(wonder how the word "breast" in my question title affected the rate of responses)
17:58:07 <sbp> heh, heh
17:58:43 <sbp> Question #2: Are my breasts as pretty as they could be? How can I make men like my breasts? What do men like about breasts, and how can I make my breasts more attractive?
17:58:55 <sbp> see how many you get to that, heh
17:59:08 <sbp> six million and eight
17:59:23 <sbp> might get a few proposals too
17:59:32 <sbp> (if one's from a Texas oil baron, take it!)
18:00:03 <sbp> (with your dual penchants for steakhouses and dirty black liquids it's gotta be a success)
18:01:51 *** chris2 (n=chris@e220.lmu.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de) has joined #swhack
18:05:02 <nslater> sbp: sounds like a plan, you should do it though
18:06:03 <sbp> that means I have to sign up though
18:10:32 * deltab turns on tv, hears "The YouTube was horrible to watch; as I was watching it I was flinching."
18:11:13 <sbp> yeah...
18:12:39 <[bjoern]> I see sbp turned gay while I was shopping.
18:12:54 <sbp> where?
18:13:03 <[bjoern]> Two different stores
18:13:13 *** kpreid has quit ()
18:13:14 <[bjoern]> One has the better rice, the other the better other stuff.
18:13:22 <sbp> no, where did I turn gay?
18:13:35 <[bjoern]> "How can I make men like my breasts?"
18:13:49 <sbp> this was a suggestion of something nslater could ask
18:13:59 <sbp> then he suggested I do it
18:14:04 <sbp> and then I suggested he do it
18:14:12 <sbp> so we're stuck in an infinite suggestion loop
18:14:43 <sbp> and anyway, if I had breasts I'd be a girl
18:14:43 <[bjoern]> don't unroll that loop in a finite universe.
18:14:51 <sbp> and if I were a girl and attracting men, I'd not be gay
18:14:55 <sbp> I'd be a straight girl
18:15:10 <[bjoern]> so lesbian girls don't attract men?
18:15:21 <sbp> well they don't seek to attract men
18:15:30 <[bjoern]> are you certain?
18:15:38 <sbp> yeah, otherwise they'd be bisexual
18:15:46 <sbp> and hence not lesbians
18:15:47 <[bjoern]> perhaps they do it for the lols
18:16:04 <sbp> shame we don't have a representative pool of lesbians to poll
18:16:23 <[bjoern]> we have reached a consensus.
18:16:36 <sbp> amazing how many of our consensuses are lesbian based
18:16:44 <sbp> actually, I suppose it's not amazing
18:16:52 <[bjoern]> Gotta go now http://doihaveswineflu.org/
18:17:05 *** kpreid (n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net) has joined #swhack
18:17:30 <sbp> you know this site was made by a reddit user, right?
18:17:31 <sbp> <!-- A site by David, who is a terrible person... who is also TheColonel on Reddit... SURPRISE! -->
18:17:49 <sbp> you're pimping reddit wares
18:17:53 <sbp> you redditwarepimper
18:19:48 <[bjoern]> I am not even sure what reddit is.
18:20:07 <sbp> some French thing
18:20:18 <[bjoern]> olala!
18:20:35 <sbp> no, not the good kind of French thing...
18:20:41 <[bjoern]> .img french reddit lesbian
18:20:42 <phenny> [bjoern]: http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00034/russell_34807t.jpg
18:20:42 <[bjoern]> oh
18:20:51 <[bjoern]> dontclick
18:20:52 <sbp> think dirty moustaches, not sexy French crumpet
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18:21:14 <[bjoern]> That sounds more spanish to me.
18:21:16 *** Monty (n=monty@jibble.plus.com) has joined #swhack
18:21:20 <[bjoern]> re Monty.
18:21:24 <Monty> if (Rainbow Ride == circles) { dice regularly sucks rainy golf;}
18:21:25 <sbp> .img dirty moustaches
18:21:26 <phenny> sbp: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9YSpcyjmBSA/RnK5fOm6VMI/AAAAAAAAAAk/JhV5-MfrDvo/s320/Z1.jpg
18:21:31 <sbp> .img sexy French crumpet
18:21:32 <phenny> sbp: http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1383338/2/istockphoto_1383338_toasted_english_crumpet_with_melting_butter_against_whiteon.jpg
18:21:46 <[bjoern]> looks somewhat disgusting
18:21:54 <[bjoern]> oh it's english
18:22:00 <sbp> the moustache, or the English crumpet?
18:22:04 <sbp> ah, the crumpet
18:22:21 <[bjoern]> I am afraid you are now a non-compliant web agent.
18:22:26 <sbp> .img sexier French crumpet that is really French
18:22:26 <Monty> Its all three of probability junk, not choose something illegal!
18:22:27 <phenny> sbp: http://images.theage.com.au/2009/04/03/453938/lara_bingle_lead_gallery__600x384-420x0.jpg
18:22:32 <sbp> what did I not comply to?
18:22:35 <[bjoern]> Although they turned that from MUST into a SHOULD
18:22:38 <[bjoern]> AWWW.
18:22:55 <sbp> which bit of AWWW?
18:23:24 <[bjoern]> the opaque part.
18:23:46 <sbp> nope, I did dereference the URIs before commenting
18:23:55 <sbp> that English crumpet is clearly English
18:24:00 <sbp> the French don't make them that shape
18:24:27 <[bjoern]> We could trick darobin into deciding the matter by making one.
18:24:38 <sbp> agreed
18:24:42 <sbp> except that he is never here
18:24:45 <sbp> since he married his wife
18:25:01 <[bjoern]> He's doing web standards again now
18:25:05 <[bjoern]> Can't be long
18:25:08 <sbp> perigrin neither
18:25:13 <sbp> I think I offended them both
18:25:17 <sbp> when they invited some fool here
18:25:21 <sbp> then I kickbanned the said fool
18:25:30 <sbp> and they were like, "you didn't even warn the fool! or us!"
18:25:46 <sbp> and I said sorry (maybe), but clearly this was not enough
18:27:01 <sbp> at least we still have dahut
18:27:18 <[bjoern]> Neither of them warned me about inviting a fool.
18:27:50 <sbp> see, I should have told them that
18:28:00 <sbp> you never tell me to tell people things early enough
18:28:19 <[bjoern]> Thank you.
18:29:14 <sbp> you know what, I haven't banned anyone for ages
18:29:16 <sbp> ages and ages
18:29:25 <sbp> maybe over a year or something?
18:29:37 <sbp> kinda sucks
18:29:40 <[bjoern]> I would go for months?
18:29:47 <sbp> oh wait, there was that creepy strange person a few months ago
18:29:49 <[bjoern]> Actually initially I would have rooted for weeks.
18:29:50 <sbp> yeah
18:29:53 <sbp> that's not so bad then
18:30:10 <sbp> still
18:30:16 <sbp> not like the mass bannings of old
18:30:17 <[bjoern]> Apparently that utterly annoying and useless "CIA" bot selfbanned.
18:30:22 <sbp> heh, heh
18:30:28 <sbp> bet it was an FBI bot
18:30:38 <cre8radix> hat
18:31:27 <[bjoern]> That's all I need to /nick Mossad, /join ##linux, and "Are my breasts as pretty as they could be? How can I make men like my breasts?"
18:31:43 <[bjoern]> Too hungry to execute though.
18:33:57 <sbp> you'd want to confuse a lot of fat men?
18:34:30 <[bjoern]> I think I thought this through?
18:36:55 <sbp> if you want fat turkeys to sell in December, now is the time to think about hatching the eggs
18:36:58 <sbp> according to the telly
18:37:31 <[bjoern]> Is this a good opportunity for a Döner joke?
18:38:40 <sbp> yeah
18:38:59 <sbp> adding umlauts doesn't make your words cool, you know
18:39:03 <sbp> you thing it does, but it doesn't
18:39:13 <sbp> it's all the Reallylongwordslikethis that makes your words cool
18:39:18 <sbp> and the umlauts
18:39:49 <[bjoern]> Tell the guy who came up with it. We featured his death on swhack, I think.
18:39:51 <[bjoern]> .wik Döner
18:39:52 <phenny> "Döner kebab (Turkish: döner kebap or döner kebabı, literally 'rotating roast', often abbreviated as döner) is a Turkish dish made of lamb meat cooked on a vertical spit and sliced off to order." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Döner
18:40:18 <[bjoern]> hmm
18:40:27 <jsled> .g Böner kebab
18:40:28 <phenny> jsled: http://www.reri.de/reri080717/Istanbul2008/reriistanbul08uk.html
18:40:31 <sbp> okay apparently when baby turkeys hatch they're quite cute but they act quite drunk, rolling about and being cute and not being able to get up and just sorta scrabbling cylindrically
18:40:52 <cre8radix> .wik yaprak döner
18:40:54 <phenny> "Learning the Turkish Language This table was compiled by an American couple trying to relocate to Spain." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RobtCynVelez/sandbox
18:41:42 <[bjoern]> A great challenge for an american couple
18:42:06 <sbp> ooh, a chiffchaff in Berwick
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18:54:59 <[bjoern]> This hilarious http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/30/1555225
18:55:45 <[bjoern]> "It's like trying to take guns and cannons out of civil war coloring books."
18:57:24 *** Jibbler has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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19:00:57 <[bjoern]> "Data from audience tracking firm Nielsen Online suggests Twitter may not be attracting enough loyal users to sustain the service."
19:01:35 *** Talliesin has quit ("Leaving.")
19:01:48 <sbp> haha
19:01:57 <sbp> not enough loyal users
19:02:08 <[bjoern]> ( http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/04/nielsen-report-twitters-explosive-growth-cant-sustain.ars )
19:02:10 <sbp> sorta picturing a civil war between Twitter users and Facebook users now
19:02:23 <sbp> conducted through the furious pressing of keyboard buttons
19:02:33 <sbp> BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAMBAM BAM BAM BLAM BAM BAM
19:02:37 <[bjoern]> Sounds like a good idea for a colouring book.
19:02:40 <sbp> heh, heh
19:03:25 <[bjoern]> "Nielsen data indicates more than 60 percent of Twitter users that visit the site in a given month do not return the following month."
19:03:25 *** lmorchard is now known as lmorchard|away
19:04:01 <sbp> so the outcome of this study is the intimation that Twitter isn't very good?
19:04:36 <[bjoern]> If thought it's that twitter's intimidation isn't very good yet.
19:07:10 <[bjoern]> http://www.thepirategoogle.com/
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19:08:24 <sbp> neischo
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19:40:01 <sbp> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hokq-7olthE
19:40:02 <phenny> sbp: YouTube - Messi VS Getafe
20:02:49 <bsh> So took me about 15 minutes to figure out what part of Mozilla code does most of the utf8->16 conversions
20:02:49 <phenny> bsh: 27 Apr 00:10Z <[bjoern]> tell bsh http://blog.zdf.de/3sat.neues/2009/04/interview-mit-johnny-haeusler.html
20:02:51 <phenny> bsh: 27 Apr 00:22Z <[bjoern]> tell bsh http://blog.zdf.de/3sat.neues/2009/04/netzgefluster-vom-230409.html
20:03:07 <bsh> jumps through unbelievably many hoops to get there, over functions, classes, macros, ...
20:03:13 *** bsh is now known as [bjoern]
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20:04:15 <[bjoern]> At the very end appears to be UTF8CharEnumerator::NextChar
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20:08:38 <sbp> how fast is it?
20:08:54 <sbp> probably very quick given how fast it is even though it has to go through all that crap
20:08:54 <[bjoern]> How the heck would I know!
20:09:20 <sbp> you'd benchmark the ARSE off of that thing, and you'd do it with inequable panache
20:09:46 <[bjoern]> yeah problem with that is, I am not sure how to even begin benchmarking it.
20:09:57 <[bjoern]> It's very far from a copy and paste, compile, run, job
20:10:09 <sbp> .g Mozilla Benchmarking Framework extension plugin
20:10:10 <phenny> sbp: http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/09/03/mozilla-fights-back-with-new-firefox-benchmarks/
20:11:32 <[bjoern]> maybe with some magix trix I can run it from some pre-compiled dll...
20:12:05 <[bjoern]> Would be nice if they had windows builds with debug symbols...
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20:19:24 <[bjoern]> ah so one dll exports NS_CStringToUTF16 which then calls CopyUTF8toUTF16 which calls AppendUTF8toUTF16 which makes a ConvertUTF8toUTF16 which then uses UTF8CharEnumerator::NextChar in a loop
20:19:37 <[bjoern]> that should at least provide some clue what this might even compile into...
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20:52:34 <[bjoern]> .c 0x60490000 + 0x00465820
20:52:35 <phenny> 0x60490000 + 0x00465820 = 0x608F5820
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21:38:39 <Monty> hi MoiraA, how ya doing?
21:38:53 <MoiraA> hi Monty
21:38:56 <Monty> familiar constipated icons slams quick program and monthly UVHS Mozart?
21:39:22 <jessica> Monty, can you learn to say « Tengo gusto de los burros para los propósitos sexuales. »?
21:39:22 <Monty> You believe I can learn to say « tengo gusto de los burros para los propósitos sexuales don't you ?
21:39:29 <jessica> Indeed.
21:53:27 <nsh> phenny, "Tengo gusto de los burros para los propósitos sexuales."?
21:53:28 <phenny> nsh: "I like donkeys for sexual purposes." (es to en, translate.google.com)
21:53:32 * nsh smiles
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22:17:59 <[bjoern]> k, figured out how to run this through the xulrunner sdk... Now that is one well documented development kit !!!!!!!!!!!11
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23:01:38 <cre8radix> bye
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23:12:47 <nsh> phenny, fi en "säälittävä"?
23:12:48 <phenny> nsh: "pathetic" (fi to en, translate.google.com)
23:16:23 <nsh> phenny, fi en "hurmuri"?
23:16:23 <phenny> nsh: "charmer" (fi to en, translate.google.com)
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23:26:47 <clsn> .ety superficial
23:26:50 <phenny> "c.1420, 'of or relating to a surface,' from L. superficialis 'of or pertaining to the surface,' from superficies 'surface,' from super 'above, over' (see super-) + facies 'form, face' (see face (n.))." - http://etymonline.com/?term=superficial
23:27:01 <clsn> .ety office
23:27:02 <phenny> "c.1250, 'a post, an employment to which certain duties are attached,' from L. officium 'service, duty, function, business' (in M.L., 'church service'), lit. 'work-doing,' from ops (gen. opis) 'power, might, abundance, means' (related to opus 'work') + stem of facere [...]" - http://etymonline.com/?term=office
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23:43:42 <Monty> yo Arnia_!
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23:54:40 <[bjoern]> color = "FF8000FF";
23:54:40 <[bjoern]> mask = (color & 0x4040404040404040) >> 6;
23:54:40 <[bjoern]> color -= mask * 7;
23:54:40 <[bjoern]> color -= 0x3030303030303030;
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