00:02:00 <nsh> Malcolm Gladwell is a dick
00:02:08 <nsh> and he was doing so well...
00:02:21 <nsh> (context: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2009/07/06/090706crbo_books_gladwell?printable=true )
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00:37:36 <Monty> hey Arnia
00:52:06 <kpreid> hey Arnia
00:52:12 <Arnia> hey
00:53:18 <nsh> hey Arnia
00:53:30 <nsh> (i just wanted to do what the cool kids are doing)
00:53:33 <nsh> nah, not really. what
00:53:36 <nsh> 's up?
00:53:44 <kpreid> what
00:53:49 * Arnia transfers his cramp to nsh
00:53:50 <kpreid> 're you doing these days?
00:53:50 <nsh> excepting the proximity of this keyboard's enter and apostrophe keys
00:54:02 <Arnia> That's teach you for trying to be cool
00:54:07 <Arnia> uh, that'll
00:54:11 <nsh> word.
00:54:49 <Arnia> kpreid: I'm working for a business intelligence start up applying my knowledge of various cool things in the real world
00:55:12 <Arnia> well, I say knowledge. I mean a rational series of beliefs based upon my embodiment
00:55:52 <kpreid> cool. any notable accomplishments yet?
00:56:39 <Arnia> not yet... although I'm having fun playing with existing crawler software (really, it all pains me)
01:04:27 <Arnia> What are you up to?
01:06:14 <kpreid> http://code.google.com/p/caja-captp/
01:09:59 <[bjoern]> .c -cos(0)
01:09:59 <phenny> -cos(0) = -1
01:15:35 <nsh> jesus
01:15:44 <[bjoern]> Yes?
01:16:13 <nsh> (re: arnia on knowledge.. you can go back to sleepyums and munchsnoozen)
01:16:22 <nsh> .gc munchsnoozen
01:16:23 <phenny> munchsnoozen: 0
01:16:34 <[bjoern]> I wish
01:16:36 <Arnia> kpreid: nice
01:16:58 <nsh> kpreid, what does your code do pls
01:17:14 <kpreid> Arnia: If only I had realized how my own plan was destroying my productivity sooner...
01:17:29 <kpreid> Turns out I can't work with a work/play distinction :-)
01:17:43 <Arnia> heh :)
01:17:52 <kpreid> Or rather, I tried to divide them and switch between, and it just meant I'd switch away from 'work'
01:18:12 <kpreid> The trick is to keep 'em together so I can interleave writing the code with talking to you while I wait for the compile
01:18:34 <nsh> Caja is some kind of "safe dynamic web-pages"
01:19:05 <kpreid> Caja is 'secure JavaScript' really
01:19:15 <nsh> and CapTP is?
01:19:19 <kpreid> It means you can pull in somebody else's fancy widget on your page without letting them take over everything else
01:19:24 <nsh> right
01:19:26 <kpreid> A distributed object protocol
01:19:38 <nsh> webzy condoms
01:19:40 <nsh> ok
01:19:44 <nsh> wait
01:19:49 <nsh> what's a distributed object protocol?
01:19:53 <kpreid> heh heh
01:20:43 <kpreid> Think about it this way: if you wanted to write an IM application that runs in people's web browsers, this would mean you only need write the UI and means of introduction, all the messaging is built in
01:20:45 <nsh> oh, a protocol that allows you to write code based on objects that live in different computers
01:21:03 <nsh> right
01:22:17 <deltab> finally, an answer to the question “What happens when Alice, Bob, and Carol are in three separate vats?”
01:22:17 * nsh decides that "means of introduction" is nevertheless hardly trivial
01:23:03 * Arnia throws a vat of custard at deltab
01:24:43 <Arnia> nsh: the difference with CapTP is that it uses a capability security model rather than an ACL-like security model
01:25:01 <nsh> what does that mean pls
01:25:07 <nsh> oh
01:25:24 <nsh> you offer capabilities to different objects/bits-of-code
01:25:38 <nsh> rather than having lists of what can access what?
01:25:44 * deltab nods
01:26:06 <nsh> and this is done through object-wrapper type dealies?
01:26:15 <nsh> whereto you pass references
01:26:18 <nsh> and such
01:27:41 <Arnia> Yes. The idea is that the reference IDs are so large that guessing them has such a tiny probability as to be acceptable as a risk
01:27:50 <nsh> right
01:27:56 <kpreid> Nono
01:28:02 <kpreid> That's a sparse-capability system.
01:28:08 <kpreid> Not an object-capability system.
01:28:10 <nsh> oh
01:28:24 <nsh> p2b demuddle-me-now thens
01:28:37 <kpreid> In an object-capability system there is *zero* probability.
01:28:45 <kpreid> It is basically OO with real encapsulation.
01:29:20 <deltab> because the capabilities are handled by some protective OS-like layer?
01:29:37 <kpreid> OS, language runtime, it's all the same
01:29:41 <nsh> because of unforgable originator addresses, presumably
01:30:09 <kpreid> "originator" is not a concept we care to use
01:30:33 <nsh> I read that in the voice of some earth-vising alien
01:30:37 <nsh> (fyi)
01:30:41 <kpreid> :-)
01:30:45 <nsh> *visiting
01:30:46 <Arnia> Ok, I've completely failed to grasp how this works then. How do you ensure there is no way for a reference to have been forged?
01:31:09 <Arnia> All schemes I can think of leave a vanishingly small, but present, probability of guessing the right magic number
01:31:11 <kpreid> Arnia: How do you forge a Java object reference?
01:31:16 <deltab> by not allowing references to come from untrusted sources
01:31:23 <kpreid> You can't without using some "number to pointer" operation
01:31:29 <kpreid> So if there are no such operations
01:31:35 <kpreid> then you're good.
01:31:49 <Arnia> Ok, but someone could spoof themselves as a real runtime
01:32:04 <kpreid> Erm
01:32:22 <kpreid> Irrelevant.
01:32:24 <Arnia> Basically, there is always some level of attack
01:32:39 <deltab> e.g. file descriptors in a unix kernel
01:32:40 <Arnia> just make it as small and improbable as possible
01:32:43 <kpreid> What I'm saying is, the hypothetical Java-with-some-constraints implementation *is* an object-capability runtime
01:32:58 <kpreid> *within* it there is protection
01:33:04 <kpreid> outside it is a different question
01:33:05 <Arnia> Yes, and that's one level. But there are other levels
01:33:16 <Arnia> and so I feel my point stands
01:33:18 <kpreid> Unix file descriptors are another example of nearly-capabilitires
01:33:50 <nsh> and the butlers, (the ones that carry the little reference-telegrams in silver covered dinner-platters), what type of hat do they wear?
01:34:23 <Arnia> ones made from badger pelt
01:34:36 <deltab> you can't just create a file descriptor, even if you know the device and inode numbers; you have to ask for it
01:35:00 * nsh bookmarks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model for journey-reading
01:35:07 <deltab> so object capabilities are limited to a single system
01:35:16 <kpreid> yes!
01:36:33 <nsh> heh @ [[[
01:36:33 <nsh> See also:
01:36:33 <nsh> Special relativity (specifically, Relativity of simultaneity) and Quantum physics, for some physical motivation for the Actor model theory
01:36:33 <nsh> ]]] -ibid
01:36:44 <nsh> sounds right up my street
01:36:52 <Arnia> deltab: I know that... my point is mainly that it is unwise to discount even small probabilities of attack (and extravagant ways to accomplish an attack.) Since so many attacks now are aimed at disruption, they don't even need to be particularly constructive or directed in order to accomplish their goals
01:37:15 <Arnia> deltab: and I'm not saying capability security is bad; just that it isn't perfect (like nothing is perfect)
01:38:04 <Arnia> I much prefer the capsec model... I just don't believe in impenetrable systems
01:38:07 <deltab> you have a trade-off between security and distributedness
01:38:49 <nsh> kpreid, can you expand on your "yes!" please?
01:39:04 <nsh> or deltab
01:39:08 <kpreid> busy
01:39:10 <nsh> ok
01:39:14 <Arnia> deltab: I know
01:39:25 <kpreid> back
01:39:30 <Arnia> deltab: but I like being explicit :)
01:40:12 <kpreid> deltab, nsh: so, exactly, object-caps are limited to a single system which implements capability rules (see the Actor Laws of Locality for one statement) within them
01:40:47 <kpreid> You can also extend to a containing object-cap system. For example if I have something like a JVM it could have primitive objects which wrap Unix FDs
01:41:09 <kpreid> But to communicate over a network, for example, you must use big random numbers and get only probabilistic security
01:41:17 <kpreid> We call that a crypto capability system
01:41:35 <kpreid> (it must use encryption, not just sparse numbers, assuming the network is open)
01:41:37 * nsh reads at http://www.erights.org/history/actors.html
01:42:11 <deltab> because otherwise someone could just copy the number?
01:42:19 <kpreid> eavesdrop on it, yeah
01:42:26 * deltab nods
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01:43:01 <kpreid> In a crypto-cap system, knowing the big number (we call 'em Swiss numbers after the alleged Swiss bank accounts) constitutes authority to use the designated object
01:44:09 <nsh> like good ol'fashioned modem dail-ins to mainframes
01:44:10 <Monty> webzy condoms
01:44:13 <nsh> *dial
01:44:17 <nsh> right on, monty
01:44:19 <Monty> You must cuddle undressed Mika Hakkinen :P
01:44:59 <kpreid> Monty: No thanks.
01:45:06 <Monty> mention it were a work trip so why Judaic polygamy had doughnuts and means you consider proper grammaring or compliment.
01:45:29 *** nsh changed the topic to: "Swhack: why Judaic polygamy had doughnuts"
01:45:57 * nsh muses some more
01:46:09 <nsh> probably to late and brainfrazzled to really understand this stuff on a deep level
01:46:13 <nsh> *too
01:46:58 <nsh> though i wonder if someone has tried taking actor model theory and reapplying it as a framework for new physical theories
01:47:13 <nsh> under the rubric of physics as computation
01:47:43 <Arnia> Mm... so, for the most part, unifying relativity and QM ;)
01:47:48 <Arnia> Sounds easy enough
01:47:50 * Arnia runs
01:48:09 * kpreid runs in the other direction, while still remaining entangled
01:48:21 * nsh reads about the following, (again)
01:48:23 * Arnia rings the bells
01:48:26 <nsh> .wik Zeno machines
01:48:27 <phenny> "In mathematics and computer science, Zeno machines (abbreviated ZM, and also called Accelerated Turing machine, ATM) are a hypothetical computational model related to Turing machines that allows a countably infinite number of algorithmic steps to be performed in finite time." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_machine
01:48:56 <nsh> (apparently, the law of discreteness in actor-model theory rules them out)
01:49:01 <[bjoern]> .c -cos(0)
01:49:01 <phenny> -cos(0) = -1
01:49:55 <deltab> “VatB picks up the reference to Carol deposited by VatA at [nonce, swissHash] in VatC's from-VatA-for-VatB table. *** Doesn't work until the WormholeOp is implemented.”
01:50:37 <nsh> i wonder if i can convince greg egan to popularise actor-model theory in his next book
01:50:45 <nsh> then i might understand it
01:50:47 <kpreid> deltab: yeah, that's because it was thought that WormholeOp required a nasty layer-breaking interaction with the stream encryption layer
01:50:54 <nsh> without having to read actual academiberks
01:51:35 <[bjoern]> .c sin 0
01:51:36 <phenny> sin(0) = 0
01:51:42 <kpreid> deltab: I pointed out that as long as you have sequence numbers, you can encrypt the wormhole data entirely separately rather than extracting a portion of the TLS encrypted data
01:52:16 <nsh> TLS?
01:52:27 <kpreid> but none of us have actually implemented that refinement, because it just doesn't come up a lot in practice
01:52:29 <nsh> transport layer stream?
01:52:33 <kpreid> .g tls
01:52:34 <phenny> kpreid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security
01:52:37 <nsh> right
01:52:38 <deltab> SSL’s replacement
01:53:17 <kpreid> (also, the primary implementation doesn't use TLS yet anyway, 'cos the TLS libs available at the time (like, 1998) weren't flexible enough)
01:53:30 <kpreid> we have a lot of ideas and not enough programmer-hours :)
01:53:35 <kpreid> er, :(
01:53:48 <nsh> primary implementation of CapTP?
01:54:02 <kpreid> yah
01:54:07 <nsh> ok
01:54:08 <kpreid> or of E, same difference as yet
01:54:43 <nsh> mm
01:56:33 <nsh> how do promises minimise delays due to network latency?
01:56:40 <nsh> (as claimed in wikipedia's E article)
01:56:55 <kpreid> because you can talk to an object that you don't have yet
01:57:05 <nsh> because the computation proceeds with the promise, rather than blocking while awaiting the result as in an immediate call?
01:57:18 <kpreid> yes, sort of
01:57:31 <kpreid> to be precise, comparing it to a asynchronous message-passing system *without promises*...
01:57:48 <kpreid> there you might send a message, get a response, and then send a message to an object mentioned in the response
01:57:51 <kpreid> that's 3 trips
01:58:00 <kpreid> with promises, you can send a message to the result of the first message
01:58:03 <kpreid> that's 1 trip
01:58:03 <nsh> oh, i see
01:58:04 <nsh> right
01:58:39 <deltab> and that's routed on the remote side?
01:58:43 <nsh> this is not-too-dissimilar to that thing in the news this week, about lattice-cryptography and analysing data while it remains encrypted
01:59:09 <kpreid> deltab: yes
01:59:15 <deltab> “To: the result of my previous request”
01:59:33 <nsh> except that in this case, you're proceeding with the results of a computation before it has (necessarily) been executed
01:59:39 <nsh> ++
01:59:52 <kpreid> when I send a message to you, I allocate an index on our connection by which I refer to the result of that message. so I don't have to wait to find out what you call the result
02:00:14 <kpreid> you can later tell me "ok, what you called "question 56" is the same thing as my "export 93"
02:00:20 <nsh> right
02:00:22 <nsh> awesome
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02:02:09 <nsh> .wik Privacy homomorphism
02:02:10 <phenny> "Homomorphic encryption is a form of encryption where one can perform a specific algebraic operation on the plaintext by performing a (possibly different) algebraic operation on the ciphertext." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_homomorphism
02:02:11 <nsh> that one
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02:03:41 <nsh> apparently, IBM had a breakthrough showing it's feasible (though scales painfully)
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02:04:04 <kpreid> I don't think that's especially related
02:06:20 <nsh> no, i guess not. i was imagining that you continue to compute locally with your name for the result, which is like the encrypted data of that result in privacy-homomorphism, then when you receive the response, you can decrypt it again
02:06:46 <nsh> so you can keep working while awaiting the result of the calculation, despite later code being dependent on its value
02:07:24 <kpreid> promises are also really neat for constructing circular references in entirely local object graphs
02:07:38 <kpreid> which you wouldn't think is so common, but it turns out it is if you
02:07:57 <kpreid> (a) avoid mutability ("construct A. construct B referring to A. Set A.b = B")
02:08:18 <kpreid> (b) break things up into distinct-function parts, as we tend to do for security purposes
02:08:25 <nsh> hmm
02:09:13 <nsh> how do you use this circular reference?
02:09:31 <[bjoern]> .o wa (pi² n sin(pi n) - cos(pi n) + 1) * cos(nx) + (n² - pi n - sin(pi n) + pi n cos(pi n))*sin(nx)
02:09:42 <phenny> (pi^2 n sin(pi n)-cos(pi n) 1) cos(n x) ((n^2-pi n-sin(pi n) pi n cos(pi n)) sin(n x));n->, 0->0, 1->(1-pi) cos(x) sin(x), 2->-(4-2 pi) cos(2 x) sin(2 x), 3->(9-3 pi) cos(3 x) sin(3 x);n->, 0->, 1->, 2->, 3->;-1/2 n (-2 n+pi sin(2 pi n)+2 pi) sin(n x) cos(n x) (pi^2 n sin(pi n)-cos(pi n));pi^2 n^3 sin(pi n) sin(n x) cos(n x)-pi^3 n^2 sin^2(pi n) co
02:09:45 <nsh> seems analogous to replacing a particle with a string (though in this case a loop)
02:10:10 <kpreid> nsh: well, that's just it. you don't have to think about it much
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02:12:18 <[bjoern]> oh fun http://www56.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28%28pi%C2%B2+n+sin%28pi+n%29+-+cos%28pi+n%29+%2B+1%29+%2A+cos%28nx%29+%2B+%28n%C2%B2+-+pi+n+-+sin%28pi+n%29+%2B+pi+n+cos%28pi+n%29%29%2Asin%28nx%29%29+%2F+%28pi+n%C2%B2%29
02:12:42 <[bjoern]> It's supposed to be periodic in 2pi, not 2pi/n. oh well...
02:13:26 <nsh> just scale it by n
02:13:51 <nsh> (replace theta with n . theta)
02:14:28 <[bjoern]> It's supposed to be a fourier expansion of a 2pi periodic function
02:14:37 <nsh> oh, nm then
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02:19:01 <Monty> lo JibbyBot
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03:35:29 <[bjoern]> .c 3^(3/2)
03:35:29 <phenny> 3^(3 / 2) = 5.19615242
03:35:33 <[bjoern]> .o wa 3^(3/2)
03:35:38 <phenny> 3^(3/2);3 sqrt(3);5.1961524227066318805823390245176171008284157614311418841674...;[5; 5, 10^_]
03:38:13 <[bjoern]> .c 415 + 184 + 131 + 180 + 150
03:38:13 <phenny> 415 + 184 + 131 + 180 + 150 = 1 060
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03:43:40 <[bjoern]> .c 440+3*240
03:43:41 <phenny> 440 + (3 * 240) = 1 160
03:47:04 <[bjoern]> .c 18 * sqrt(50² + 50²)
03:47:05 <phenny> UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc2 in position 12: ordinal not in range(128) (file "/var/www/inamidst.com/htdocs/phenny/tools.py", line 20, in new)
03:47:11 <[bjoern]> .c 18 * sqrt(50^2 + 50^2)
03:47:11 <phenny> 18 * sqrt((50^2) + (50^2)) = 1 272.79221
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04:12:03 <kpreid> Your last will and key distribution (what happens to your encrypted data): http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jun/30/data-protection-internet
04:12:51 <[bjoern]> That's something I've already taken care of.
04:14:02 <sivy> kpreid! long time no see
04:14:15 <sivy> <-- formerly known as redmonk
04:14:26 <kpreid> no no, long no time see *you*
04:14:28 <kpreid> er, wait
04:14:32 <kpreid> whatever. hi.
05:03:36 <[bjoern]> .c 46 / 60
05:03:36 <phenny> 46 / 60 = 0.766666667
05:04:29 <[bjoern]> .c 40/65
05:04:30 <phenny> 40 / 65 = 0.615384615
05:04:34 <[bjoern]> .c 42/65
05:04:34 <phenny> 42 / 65 = 0.646153846
05:04:39 <[bjoern]> .c 43/65
05:04:39 <phenny> 43 / 65 = 0.661538462
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05:36:02 <[bjoern]> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2009/jun/30/internet-freedom-of-information
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08:40:41 <Monty> howdy, Talliesin
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09:05:13 <CaptSolo> hi Talliesin
09:05:29 <Talliesin> Hey CaptSolo. How goes with you?
09:13:14 <nelix> http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/ancient-languages-perl
09:13:17 <nelix> thoughts?
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09:54:59 <cre8radix> phenny: tell [bjoern]: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/US-Musikindustrie-gewinnt-Rechtsstreit-mit-Usenet-Zugangsanbieter--/meldung/141351
09:54:59 <phenny> cre8radix: I'll pass that on when [bjoern] is around.
09:55:01 <phenny> cre8radix: 30 Jun 20:02Z <[bjoern]> tell cre8radix http://asset.soup.io/asset/0369/8807_42b7.jpeg
09:55:33 <cre8radix> http://asset.soup.io/asset/0369/8807_42b7.jpeg
09:55:40 <cre8radix> good 1
09:57:07 <sbp> yo
09:57:38 <_ulises> yo sbp
09:57:42 <_ulises> bloody chrome
09:57:52 <_ulises> anybody using chrome in linux?
10:00:50 <nsh> OH HOLI WHADUPATCHA
10:00:55 <nsh> chromium
10:01:07 <nsh> it is fast and kinda good and not very complete
10:01:15 <nsh> chrome kinda bugged out on me
10:01:19 <nsh> but that was a few weeks ago
10:01:36 <sbp> and the tabs just sorta disappear off to the right
10:02:40 <_ulises> well it was made by google so there
10:02:49 <_ulises> anyhoo, now it just refuses to browse
10:02:55 <_ulises> "aw, snap" is all I get
10:02:58 <_ulises> SNAP
10:04:05 <sbp> bad google
10:08:47 <_ulises> bad indeed
10:09:21 <_ulises> ok, google can go google itself
10:09:25 <_ulises> back to FF
10:09:49 <sbp> no Safari for Linux?
10:14:14 <_ulises> not that I know of ...
10:15:01 <_ulises> konqueror is as close as it gets
10:16:07 <_ulises> bleh, they say "run safari for windows in wine zomg"
10:20:01 <griff> browse youtube in links
10:20:15 <griff> all the comments, none of the content
10:20:18 <griff> pretty much my favorite site
10:20:55 <_ulises> ugh, bad google, it doesn't recognise konqueror as a supported browser
10:21:03 <_ulises> mang google is ruining my life
10:21:40 * _ulises tries epiphany
10:23:53 <_ulises> fail
10:23:58 <_ulises> back to FF indeed :(
10:26:39 <sbp> blindsearch is an interesting site
10:26:45 <sbp> imagine it without the Google column
10:26:52 <sbp> bing in one column, yahoo in another column
10:26:57 <sbp> I think it'd be as good as Google
10:27:20 <sbp> when you think about it, Google wastes all that space
10:27:32 <sbp> it has one column of results, and then a few ads to the right
10:27:37 <sbp> and a crapload of space in the middle
10:28:05 <sbp> ah! I got the left-padding that [bjoern] saw
10:28:28 <sbp> anyway, two columns
10:29:38 <_ulises> lnk pls
10:29:46 <sbp> link to what?
10:29:51 <_ulises> blinksearch?
10:29:57 <sbp> .g blindsearch
10:29:58 <phenny> sbp: http://blindsearch.fejus.com/
10:29:59 <_ulises> blindsearch
10:30:10 <_ulises> thx
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10:45:04 <sbp> _ulises: what do you think of it?
10:45:36 <nsh> I THINK YOU'LL FIND: URFACE
10:45:40 <nsh> what's up sbp?
10:45:49 <_ulises> about the voting? the idea? the what?
10:45:56 <sbp> nothing's up me, young man
10:46:07 <sbp> _ulises: any aspect that you fancy to talk about most
10:46:24 <sbp> nsh: currently looking up how best to remove blackfly
10:46:36 <nsh> .wik Blackfly program
10:46:38 <phenny> "A black fly (sometimes called a buffalo gnat, turkey gnat, or white socks) is any member of the family Simuliidae of the Culicomorpha infraorder." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_fly
10:46:41 <nsh> nop
10:46:45 <nsh> or, yes?
10:46:52 <nsh> from garden?
10:47:23 <sbp> yeah
10:47:30 <_ulises> well, there are a few things there
10:47:34 <nsh> i think lindy-hop at 110 decibels with slightly over-heavy mid-top and a squarewave filter should do it
10:47:40 <_ulises> the voting bit, to see the trademark bias, is an interesting one
10:47:42 <sbp> sodding things get everywhere if you let them
10:48:47 <_ulises> hrm
10:48:58 <_ulises> what was I saying ... or actually, what did I want to say
10:49:00 <sbp> [[[
10:49:01 <sbp> Aphids breathe through their skin. Spraying with diluted washing up liquid clogs up their skin and causes them to literally suffocate. Their brains are unable to detect pain according to the majority of research, so don't worry unduly about any pain this may cause!
10:49:02 <sbp> ]]]
10:49:19 <_ulises> ok, I'm not impressed, in the sense that I feel "meh" about it
10:49:34 <_ulises> not long ago I saw this website that compared google and yahoo side by side
10:49:39 <_ulises> in a sort-of-graph way
10:49:59 <_ulises> so you searched for X and it showed you the overlapping results and their different positions in both yahoo and google
10:50:02 <_ulises> that was interesting
10:50:16 <_ulises> now this blindsearch is interesting to see the bias in judging search results, that's cool
10:50:17 <sbp> “If you hate using chemicals to get rid of greenfly then try using washing up liquid mixed with water.” — HOW IS THAT NOT USING CHEMICALS?!
10:52:28 <sbp> ah, here we go:
10:52:29 <sbp> .title http://rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles0406/aphids.asp
10:52:31 <phenny> sbp: Royal Horticultural Society - Advice: Aphids
10:52:34 <_ulises> sbp, I don't know, what do YOU think of that thing?
10:53:44 <sbp> well, I think it's great at busting people's Googlecentricity
10:53:56 <sbp> if they go and use this and find they're clicking mainly on the non-Google columns
10:54:08 <sbp> so the question is: why do we use Google?
10:54:18 <sbp> is it more to do with branding and habit?
10:54:28 <sbp> or is it actually because the results are far superior to everything else?
10:54:36 <sbp> in the early days the latter may have been the case
10:54:42 <sbp> but I suspect now that it's swung far towards the former
10:54:50 <_ulises> today it's just a marketing thing
10:55:01 <_ulises> and habit, as you say
10:55:15 <sbp> well, that's what you can *empirically* test with this site!
10:55:19 <_ulises> yes
10:55:26 <sbp> keep doing searches on it, tally up which column you click most...
10:55:38 <_ulises> do I get my own personal stats?
10:55:45 <sbp> nope. that would be handy though
10:55:52 <sbp> maybe you should suggest that to 'em
10:56:34 <_ulises> yeah
10:56:39 <_ulises> I'd like to see my own stats
10:56:49 <_ulises> together with a label like "you iz a google whore"
10:56:58 <_ulises> or "you are yahoo's bitch"
10:57:00 <_ulises> etc.
10:58:19 * _ulises emails the chaps
11:04:03 *** tav_ is now known as tav
11:06:29 <_ulises> right, desisted of emailing the chap
11:06:41 <_ulises> why? because I don't care enough for this thing ... call me selfish
11:26:43 <nsh> hey
11:26:56 <nsh> not caring about the right things is what makes us special
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11:33:28 <Monty> hi MorbusIff
11:33:39 <MorbusIff> .
11:37:02 <Talliesin> Anyone going to Edinburgh for the Fringe?
11:41:34 <Talliesin> sbp: re. google
11:41:57 <Talliesin> I think it's totally the switch from superior product to superior brand suggested above
11:42:24 <Talliesin> The interesting thing is where the brand strength came from, in that it started as the nerds search engine (certainly that was my experience)
11:42:43 <Talliesin> Non-nerds started using it because the techie people they knew used it.
11:43:03 <Talliesin> Good example of something becoming mainstream on the back of a strongly convinced subculture
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11:56:55 <sbp> hmm, yeah, interesting point
11:57:04 <sbp> not sure how much of a nerd I was when Google started becoming popular
11:57:15 <nsh> 24%
11:57:17 <sbp> but I definitely recall people being shocked that I wasn't using Google
11:57:22 <sbp> and it was like, oops, faux pas
11:57:27 <sbp> probably more into the 30s
11:57:34 <sbp> also: aphids: controlled
11:57:50 <sbp> went with a commercial bug spray supposedly derived from natural fatty acids...
11:57:56 <nsh> but you had a -10 cowboy bonus in effect
11:58:06 <nsh> good ol lipids
11:58:06 <sbp> aha, ...good!
11:58:16 <sbp> yeah. I guess it does that thing which I quoted above
11:58:23 <sbp> also, aphids are really weird
11:58:29 <sbp> I mean, when you look at the mass of them
11:58:52 <Talliesin> Ladybirds (Ladybugs to our American friends) can help
11:59:16 <sbp> hardcore: “The hardiest species is T. polyphyllum from Chile, the perennial roots of which can survive underground when air temperatures drop as low as -15°C (5°F).” — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeolum
11:59:30 <sbp> Talliesin: yeah, I saw you should grow certain plants around the affected ones
11:59:34 <sbp> but, bit too late for that now
11:59:47 <sbp> (certain plants to attract ladybirds and other aphid predators)
11:59:54 <nsh> or hire local ruffian kids to romp about in ladybird costumes
11:59:58 <nsh> i imagine that would help
11:59:58 <sbp> ahahaha
12:00:04 <sbp> Hire-a-Chav
12:00:13 <nsh> ++
12:00:20 <nsh> man, Chav->Ladybird
12:00:25 <nsh> that's a reality tv show i'd endorse
12:00:39 <nsh> briefly, before losing interest and playing with some string
12:00:43 <nsh> string is fucking awesome
12:00:49 <sbp> yeah. cat's cradle and all that
12:00:53 <nsh> totals
12:01:00 <nsh> have you ever done dance-floor cat's cradle?
12:01:10 <nsh> it's pretty intense at 130 BPM
12:01:31 <nsh> and neon twine motherfucker
12:01:47 <nsh> (ok, haven't tried the neon twine, but it's way up on my list mang)
12:02:02 *** cre8radix has quit ()
12:02:25 <sbp> oh that is a good idea
12:02:29 <sbp> blacklight twine
12:02:42 <nsh> totals
12:02:46 <nsh> .g blacklight twine
12:02:47 <phenny> nsh: http://www.mookychick.co.uk/diy_ethic/decorate_black_light_party.php
12:03:26 <nsh> arghpcics
12:03:54 *** nsh changed the topic to: ""Do you want a sophisticated, considered look? If so, use fluoro fake fur, but wisely...""
12:03:59 <nsh> +++++
12:04:10 <nsh> .g fluoro twine
12:04:10 <phenny> nsh: http://www.mookychick.co.uk/diy_ethic/decorate_black_light_party.php
12:04:11 <sbp> “If you've got a bit more cash to spend, get some fluorescent fun fur.”
12:04:13 <nsh> bah
12:04:32 <sbp> .g blacklight muff
12:04:32 <phenny> sbp: http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/tracywjl/product-detaildMRJskDbLuWB/China-Black-Light-CCD-Camera-BS-995-.html
12:04:37 <nsh> man this page is awesome
12:05:50 <sbp> one drawback with the plant spray
12:05:54 <sbp> is that my hands now reek of it
12:06:07 <nsh> "If you don't want to decorate the whole of your room in black light, just decorate the toilet."
12:06:08 <sbp> this despite the fact that I've cleansed the arse out of them
12:06:09 <nsh> whut
12:06:18 <nsh> she has a toilet in her room!?
12:06:22 <sbp> seriously, I think I could merely point at an aphid and it would keel over and die
12:06:25 <nsh> eek
12:06:29 <nsh> that would eb cool though
12:06:41 <nsh> people would declaim your adventures far and wide
12:06:45 <sbp> hehe
12:06:59 <sbp> people could hire me for parties
12:07:03 <sbp> especially garden parties
12:07:08 <nsh> i'm going to start a declaiming society at glasgow
12:07:18 <sbp> okay
12:07:22 <sbp> make me an hon. mem. please
12:07:23 <nsh> and we'll do stuff like the shipping forcast, in iambic pentameter, in the city centre
12:07:26 <nsh> word.
12:07:54 <sbp> if you need a script for that, can do
12:08:00 <nsh> totals
12:09:07 * nsh back after foodmunchens
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13:26:01 <Monty> howdy, sivy
13:26:25 <sivy> hi monty
13:26:25 <Monty> ahahaha
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13:53:13 <sivy> sbp: ping
13:56:07 * sivy waves @ deltab Morbus thelsdj
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14:03:15 <sbp> sivy: yo!
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14:07:38 <sivy> hi sbp - i've got a copy of phenny running now in #monkinetic
14:07:50 <sivy> playing around with it
14:07:53 <Morbus> WHAT THE HELL DO YOU WANT?!~
14:07:54 <phenny> Morbus: 30 Jun 13:43Z <sbp> tell Morbus totally stole 2 iron from youi
14:07:55 <phenny> Morbus: 30 Jun 13:43Z <sbp> tell Morbus for some reason, you never seem to be able to steal stone
14:08:04 <Morbus> what the.
14:08:08 <sivy> would you guys be interested in a twitter module
14:08:11 <Morbus> i don't know know sivy. i know a redmonk.
14:08:18 <sivy> native, not via .o
14:08:28 <Morbus> i don't twitter, so it'd be irrleevant to me.
14:08:45 <sivy> ok
14:08:49 <sivy> and hi Morbus
14:08:55 <sivy> how's life treating you
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14:09:27 <sivy> sbp: i'm getting some weird warnings on os x
14:09:28 <Morbus> a lot worse now that you're back
14:09:31 <sivy> from phenny
14:09:32 <Morbus> ;)
14:09:41 <Morbus> sivy: hey, try out my bot too! ;)
14:09:45 * sivy shakes a trout at Morbus
14:09:45 <Morbus> it requires Drupal ;)
14:09:55 <sivy> there's a shocker
14:10:11 <Morbus> tis the official drupal bot, is in nearly 30 channels, etc., etc.
14:10:14 <sivy> sbp: "The process has forked and you cannot use this CoreFoundation functionality safely. You MUST exec()."
14:13:59 <jsled> EXEC! EXEC!
14:14:10 <jsled> FORK YOU< BUDDY>
14:14:43 <sivy> "I'll fork-give you if you fork-get. heh heeheh heh"
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14:15:55 <sbp> sivy: yeah, that's weird
14:16:01 <sbp> I suppose you're using a stupid python?
14:16:05 <sbp> try using normal python
14:16:12 <sivy> heh
14:16:15 <sivy> i was thinking about that
14:16:22 <sivy> i'm using whatever ython ships on ops x
14:16:24 <sivy> i guess
14:17:16 <sivy> fairbairn-sykes-2:~ sivy$ python -V
14:17:16 <sivy> Python 2.5.2
14:17:17 <sivy> fairbairn-sykes-2:~ sivy$
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14:50:17 <sbp> sivy: try doing "python" alone and then printing the first few lines
14:50:20 <sbp> also: $ which python
14:50:50 <sivy> /opt/local/bin/python
14:50:57 <sivy> Python 2.5.2 (r252:60911, Dec 4 2008, 16:04:39)
14:50:58 <sbp> hmm. should be okay
14:51:47 <sbp> .gc "this CoreFoundation functionality"
14:51:47 <phenny> "this CoreFoundation functionality": 362
14:51:49 <sbp> .g "this CoreFoundation functionality"
14:51:49 <phenny> sbp: http://code.google.com/p/iphonedisk/issues/detail?id=3
14:51:49 <Monty> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Size_of_English_Wikipedia_broken_down.png
14:53:39 <sbp> hmm, this is some Leopard thing apparently
14:53:40 <sbp> weird
14:54:50 <sivy> yeah
14:56:00 <sbp> sivy: where is the error happening exactly?
14:56:05 <sbp> what's the traceback? where's the problem?
14:56:41 <sivy> no traceback
14:56:49 <sivy> it's just a console msg
14:56:50 <sbp> grumble
14:57:01 <sbp> and it fails after that, right?
14:57:23 <sbp> or is it just a warning?
14:57:42 <sivy> just warnings
14:57:46 <sbp> ah, good
14:57:54 <sivy> IT IS UGLY MAKE IT STOP
14:57:58 <sbp> still, shouldn't ... right
14:58:08 <sbp> 2> /dev/null
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14:58:29 <sivy> heh
15:01:08 <sbp> Murray wins QF 1st set
15:01:09 <Monty> so...
15:01:17 <sbp> so he's up 1-0
15:01:45 <sivy> Quiddich Finals?
15:02:40 <sbp> don't make me bring out the splutching implement
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15:07:03 <sbp> "you ever been there and hung out? on your hill?"
15:07:20 <sbp> — John McEnroe to Tim Henman
15:30:39 <sbp> hehe
15:30:47 <sbp> Murray wins 2nd set with a string of aces
15:31:30 <sbp> guessing Murray-Roddick for SF
15:34:50 <sbp> .gcs unmolish unmolishing
15:34:51 <phenny> unmolish (1), unmolishing (0)
15:35:56 <sbp> .gcs molish molishing
15:35:57 <phenny> molish (11,400), molishing (804)
15:39:40 *** manny (n=manny@ip68-104-180-227.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #swhack
15:39:45 <sbp> hi manny
15:39:46 <manny> Hi sbp!
15:39:51 <sbp> what's up?
15:39:56 <sivy> manny: help
15:39:56 <manny> sivy: Hi, I'm a bot. Say ".commands" to me in private for a list of my commands, or see http://inamidst.com/phenny/ for more general details. My owner is sivy.
15:40:02 <sbp> aha
15:40:20 <sivy> .tw everyone, say hi!
15:40:20 <manny> tweeting "everyone, say hi! (from irc)"
15:40:21 <sbp> there's me, chatting away to my own bot...
15:40:22 <manny> http://twitter.com/monkinetic/statuses/2421602468
15:41:01 <sbp> .yi
15:41:01 <phenny> Not yet...
15:41:01 <manny> Not yet...
15:41:10 <sivy> .tw blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
15:41:10 <manny> "Brevity is the soul of wit." (Pelonius, in _Hamlet_, 1603). 129 characters, please.
15:41:21 <sbp> ...Pelonius?
15:41:39 <sivy> the irony was lost on him
15:41:50 <sbp> .wik Polonius
15:41:50 <phenny> "Polonius is a character in William Shakespeare's Hamlet." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonius
15:41:51 <manny> "Polonius is a character in William Shakespeare's Hamlet." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonius
15:42:01 <sivy> oops
15:42:04 <sivy> better turn that off
15:42:08 <sbp> :-)
15:42:11 <sbp> or just fix the typo
15:42:18 <sivy> oh i see
15:42:19 <sivy> pheh
15:42:28 <Morbus> *this* is hilarious: http://www.passiveaggressivenotes.com/2009/06/22/soyfckers-anonymous/
15:42:32 <Morbus> i mean, that's fucking awesome.
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15:42:55 <sbp> sivy: yeah, you can just remove the modules you don't want to use
15:43:11 <sivy> sbp we need a wya to make module shcannel specific
15:43:20 <sivy> modules channel-specific
15:43:38 <sbp> vegan-curious makes me chox
15:44:07 <sbp> or, if input.channel == '#swhack': return
15:44:13 <sbp> in each command you wanna disable
15:44:16 <sbp> or something like that
15:44:19 <sbp> but yeah, would be nice
15:44:24 <sbp> am thinking about phenny3
15:44:26 <sbp> in python3
15:44:32 <sivy> nice
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15:48:03 <Monty> But what does swhacker have to do with the price of fish?
15:50:40 <sbp> Murray breaks in 3rd set
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15:56:06 <sbp> 2nd break
15:56:07 <sbp> ace...
15:58:21 <sbp> wins
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16:28:57 * Morbus installs a fresh copy of 3.5.
16:33:25 <Morbus> wtf.
16:33:32 <Morbus> it freaking changed my default browser prefs without telling me.
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16:42:05 <[bjoern]> yo maybe
16:42:05 <phenny> [bjoern]: 09:54Z <cre8radix> tell [bjoern] http://www.heise.de/newsticker/US-Musikindustrie-gewinnt-Rechtsstreit-mit-Usenet-Zugangsanbieter--/meldung/141351
16:42:16 <[bjoern]> surprise!!!
16:42:35 <[bjoern]> ah aber noch nicht rechtskräftig
16:43:35 <[bjoern]> somewhat worse than it sounds
16:44:13 <[bjoern]> Apparently they got their lawyer from a Futurama episode.
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16:59:45 <Monty> howdy, manny
16:59:49 <sivy> sbp: how do you keep phenny's connection from timing out?
17:00:38 <sbp> I don't
17:00:46 <sbp> phenny doesn't timeout
17:00:54 <sivy> huh
17:00:57 <sbp> and if something disconnects her, she reconnects automatically
17:00:58 <sivy> too much to do, huh
17:01:06 <sbp> the only time I have to restart her is when the server goes down
17:01:16 <sbp> I did have someone else asking this recently
17:01:17 <sivy> i wonder why manny isn't re-connecting?
17:01:18 <sbp> but, works for me!
17:01:24 <sivy> heh
17:01:34 <sbp> what version of phenny did you download?
17:01:34 <sivy> i ownder if that fork bug is responsible
17:01:42 <sivy> latest, i thought
17:01:44 <sbp> oh, yes, could be!
17:01:53 <sbp> try running it with nohup
17:02:36 <sivy> how do i di that
17:02:42 <sivy> <-- moraon
17:02:45 <sivy> lol
17:02:52 <sbp> just put "nohup" before the usual phenny command
17:02:57 <sbp> e.g. $ nohup ./phenny
17:03:00 <sbp> or whateverz
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17:05:59 <sivy> thanks
17:06:02 <sbp> yw
17:06:11 <sbp> I did tell the other guy to do that too
17:06:20 <sbp> but he was like "OMG WHY U NOT HELP ME"
17:07:15 <sbp> also he was going on about phenny.py
17:07:23 <sbp> even though there isn't a phenny.py in the distribution
17:07:27 <sbp> which was a bit odd
17:07:31 <sbp> maybe he had an old version
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17:09:25 <sbp> phenny3 should just be one file
17:09:49 <sbp> and it should have size-checking built into everything
17:09:52 <sbp> so people can't extend it
17:10:04 <sbp> then again, that would mean I couldn't extend it either
17:10:28 <sivy> heh
17:20:15 <[bjoern]> single file distributions I like.
17:21:04 <sbp> perhaps phenny3 should also be in C
17:21:34 <[bjoern]> system("phenny.p6");
17:21:44 <sbp> hehe
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18:22:09 <[bjoern]> .wik Kategorischer Imperativ
18:22:10 <phenny> Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Kategorischer Imperativ".
18:22:15 <[bjoern]> fail
18:22:50 <clsn> .wik Categorical Imperative
18:22:51 <phenny> "The categorical imperative is the central philosophical concept in the moral philosophy of Immanuel Kant, as well as modern deontological ethics." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_Imperative
18:23:08 <clsn> (get it, "KANT" find anything in WP???)
18:23:50 <[bjoern]> the article is written as if he didn't publish in german.
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18:30:10 <[bjoern]> "Actually I'm taking a graduate diploma in 'understanding women' and saying blatantly self-contradictory things is part of my curriculum." - /.
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18:40:51 <[bjoern]> .leo Willkür
18:40:52 <phenny> die Willkür = arbitrariness, disposal
18:40:53 <phenny> — http://dict.leo.org/ende?search=Willk%C3%BCr
18:40:58 <[bjoern]> .leo Wille
18:40:59 <phenny> der Wille = volition, will
18:41:00 <[bjoern]> .leo Kür
18:41:01 <phenny> Wo ein Wille ist, ist auch ein Weg. = Where there's a will there's a way., Where there's a will, there's a way.
18:41:01 <phenny> erklärter Wille = declared intention
18:41:03 <phenny> — http://dict.leo.org/ende?search=Wille
18:41:03 <Monty> am too
18:41:04 <phenny> die Kür (Eiskunstlauf) = freestyle (sport.), free skate (sport.), free skating (sport.), freestyle event (sport.)
18:41:05 <phenny> — http://dict.leo.org/ende?search=K%C3%BCr
18:41:21 <[bjoern]> fail on Kür
18:44:56 <[bjoern]> [[[
18:44:56 <[bjoern]> There's a *ticking bomb of some sort* (oh no!) but We, (the Good Guys) have caught the Bad Man who knows *The Secret Code*. But we would NEVER
18:44:56 <[bjoern]> torture for the information; we're Good People, after all. So instead we set up an elaborate, expensive, time-consuming mind-game sham act to
18:44:56 <[bjoern]> trick the captive into thinking that he's escaped, forgotten he's escaped, and that the person who helped him escape should be told *The
18:44:57 <[bjoern]> Secret Code*! But alas, the captive sees through the whole act at the last moment and laughs his cruel Bad Guy laugh, enraging us. And we, the
18:45:00 <[bjoern]> Good Guys TRIED so hard! --Can anybody blame us for bowing as the ALPHA MALE character of the show who stomps in and sets to work on the
18:45:03 <[bjoern]> captive's finger nails with a pair of pliers, retrieving the information in under five minutes and *Saves The Day*? Heck no! We cheer!
18:45:06 <[bjoern]> ]]] -- /.
18:45:36 <clsn> Wow, in ref to what?
18:45:56 <[bjoern]> ~ http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1286207&cid=28525703
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19:11:21 <deltab> Morbus: do you mean your preference of which browser to open, or something else?
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19:39:50 <[bjoern]> xover?
19:41:18 <[bjoern]> .u ݕ¬
19:41:18 <phenny> U+0755 ARABIC LETTER BEH WITH INVERTED SMALL V BELOW (ݕ)
19:41:19 <phenny> U+00AC NOT SIGN (¬)
19:41:36 <[bjoern]> .u ݕ¬
19:41:37 <phenny> U+0755 ARABIC LETTER BEH WITH INVERTED SMALL V BELOW (ݕ)
19:41:38 <phenny> U+00AC NOT SIGN (¬)
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20:24:08 <[bjoern]> apparently there is a bug in OpenSP UTF8CodingSystem.cxx line ~ 145 which makes it replace (all?) astral code points by the replacement character
20:26:45 <[bjoern]> the comparison is basically, if MAX_UNICODE < 0x200000 - 1 then replace
20:26:55 <[bjoern]> .c 0x200000-1
20:26:56 <phenny> 0x200000 - 1 = 0x1FFFFF
20:27:09 <[bjoern]> but since Unicode goes only to 0x10FFFF ...
20:29:43 <[bjoern]> .c 0xc0 in binary
20:29:44 <phenny> 0xc0 = 0b11000000
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21:05:55 <[bjoern]> Fixing that did no good, there is some crazy character mapping stuff in MappingDecoder::decode that I do not understand, it turns all astral chars, whether from utf-8 or 16, into zeros.
21:09:17 <[bjoern]> http://de.indymedia.org/2009/06/254985.shtml
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23:32:08 <sivy> ugh.
23:32:25 <sivy> i hate web browsers.
23:35:21 <[bjoern]> Mutual feeling.
23:36:44 <sivy> i don't suppose you know why a cookie in the http header is not set when the onload event fires?
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23:47:59 <[bjoern]> Many possibilities.
23:48:32 <[bjoern]> May have expired, may have been overridden, may have been rejected, cookies may be disabled, insufficient disk space to store cookies, malformed cookie, ...
23:48:47 <[bjoern]> I'd be debugging it in Wireshark
23:49:11 <sivy> well, the cookie seems well formed, and I can see it in firebug
23:49:20 <sivy> in the network tab, i can see the set-cokie header
23:49:51 <[bjoern]> how about entering "javascript:alert(document.cookie)" into the address bar?
23:49:54 <sivy> but when the browser's onload function fires, document.cookie returns the old value from the previous page
23:50:19 <sivy> i'm using firebug's console, but yeah
23:50:29 <sivy> i set a break point at the start of the onload handler
23:50:41 <sivy> then did "document.cookie" in the console
23:51:07 <sivy> :(
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