00:00:31 <MaienM> man, the colors in that paste are kinda annoying
00:01:03 <sbp> yeah, the mal-syntax highlighting adds to the experience though in a way
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00:03:13 * Arnia thinks Freenode is an odd place
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00:07:52 <MoiraA> sbp he played up to it so well
00:08:02 <MoiraA> true I eventually pushed it
00:08:43 <MoiraA> but you have no idea how kottizen and I scrambled frantically to get the promised python script to work
00:08:54 <MoiraA> neither of us could do it in OSX
00:09:08 <MoiraA> was a stroke of luck he used xchat
00:09:14 <MoiraA> and hadnt blocked ctcp
00:10:13 <MoiraA> do you know where I get a socks module?
00:10:23 <sbp> yes. it's called "sockets"
00:10:33 <MaienM> lol, just finished reading it
00:10:38 <sbp> :-)
00:10:40 <MaienM> and thats was pretty damn pathetic
00:10:50 <sbp> moderately good ending, yeah
00:10:55 <MaienM> yeah
00:10:55 <sbp> "SEE YA FREENODE!"
00:11:08 <MoiraA> you would think the people offering python would include sockets
00:11:15 <sbp> MoiraA: they do
00:11:20 <MaienM> "WHAT, YOU DON'T DO AS I SAY? SCREW YOU GUYS D:"
00:11:22 <sbp> as I just said, "sockets". that's the module name
00:11:27 <sbp> import sockets
00:11:30 <sbp> or socket. lemme check
00:11:33 <MoiraA> kept saying "no socks module found"
00:11:40 <MoiraA> MaienM
00:11:46 <MoiraA> hope you mean penguin
00:11:53 <sbp> yeah socket, sorry
00:11:55 <sbp> import socket
00:11:57 <MaienM> yeah, I do
00:12:05 <sbp> http://docs.python.org/3.1/library/socket.html
00:12:10 <MaienM> who else could I've meant?
00:13:46 <MaienM> so, what is the recommended python version nowadays?
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00:14:03 <sbp> dunno, whatever is latest on the python homepage I guess
00:14:11 <MaienM> I remember joining #python a while ago and seeing the topic state they advised against 3.0
00:14:13 <MaienM> mkay
00:14:16 <sbp> 2.6.4 and 3.1.1
00:14:31 <sbp> #python are berks extraordinaire
00:14:40 <MaienM> most stuff doesn't work with 3.x (yet)
00:14:56 <MoiraA> sbp I realize I have to learn *much* more python
00:15:09 <sbp> MaienM: well I tend not to use external modules because I don't like dependencies
00:15:24 <sbp> any dependency just adds a gutload of cognitive burden on both programmer and user
00:15:31 <MaienM> mhm, true
00:15:32 <sbp> note how phenny gets away with only using stdlib
00:15:36 <MoiraA> quitw
00:15:38 <MoiraA> e
00:15:41 <sbp> so that's no problem for me in 3.1
00:15:47 <MoiraA> but kottizen knows python
00:15:51 <MaienM> but well I wouldn't want to do what pygtk does manually :P
00:15:52 <sbp> only problem really is whether 3.1 is even available
00:15:54 <MoiraA> and he couldn't do it
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00:15:58 <sbp> sure
00:16:02 <MoiraA> OSX is the problem
00:16:07 <MaienM> but yeah, I avoid non-standard libraries/modules as much as I can
00:16:23 <sbp> easy_install has made things a bit better, but...
00:16:32 <MaienM> most of them time when you use a library you only use 1% of it
00:16:42 <MaienM> and the rest is just wasted space/cpu/memory
00:16:54 <MoiraA> it downloaded to where python couldn't find it
00:17:33 <MoiraA> then when I figured that it changed the name of his hastily made script to bot2-2l
00:17:33 * Arnia has gone off python a bit
00:17:50 <MoiraA> and of course osx had problems finding it
00:18:05 <MoiraA> I am not great with terminal commands under stress
00:18:20 <sbp> I don't like python as much as I used to
00:18:34 <sbp> but I don't think perl6 is a viable alternative for once python shaped tasks
00:18:45 <sbp> ruby may be closer, but that feels wrong too
00:19:32 <MaienM> any particular reason for that sbp?
00:19:54 <sbp> for which? not liking python? perl6 not being viable? ruby not being viable?
00:20:21 <MaienM> not liking python
00:20:28 <sbp> oh yeah, a few things
00:20:41 <MoiraA> I stupidly said I could make a python clonebotnet
00:20:46 <MoiraA> why god knows
00:21:02 <MoiraA> then frantically scrambled to do it annd got someone to help
00:21:13 <sbp> for example, python 3 was a good opportunity to do some nice changes, but instead the only thing they really did well was the text / bytes division. everything else is only improved in dramatically small ways, like dict comprehensions
00:21:26 <sbp> the biggest annoyance for me is the stdlib, ironically
00:21:37 <sbp> python's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness
00:21:44 <sbp> some modules are really, really horrible
00:21:50 <MoiraA> sbp I wondered if there was a better language for macosx
00:22:17 <sbp> argument parsing for example. two argument parsing modules and they're both pathetic. and the web handling stuff is on almost another level of terrible. everybody knows this but they don't update it!
00:22:37 <sbp> and when they do add something radical, they do it in a kind of crazy way
00:22:53 <sbp> I'm still not really pleased about decorators. they just don't feel pythonic to me, in syntax
00:23:10 <sbp> I mean, they're operations which happen after a function is made
00:23:12 <sbp> but they appear before it
00:23:19 <MaienM> decorators?
00:23:25 <sbp> @decorator
00:23:29 <sbp> def function(blah):
00:23:29 <MaienM> ah, like @static_function?
00:23:34 <sbp> ...
00:23:34 <sbp> yeah
00:23:57 <MaienM> meh, never really thought about them
00:24:19 <MaienM> I mean, I'm used to defining type (and static) before a function so I never thought of it as weird
00:24:21 <Arnia> sbp: they were very useful for some of the metaprogramming I used to do
00:24:32 <Arnia> particularly with my dissertation, if you recall
00:24:35 <sbp> I'm not saying decorators are not useful
00:24:40 <sbp> I am saying the syntax is *shit*
00:25:04 <Arnia> what would you suggest?
00:25:29 <sbp> possibly:
00:25:35 <sbp> def function(blah) decorator:
00:25:37 <sbp> ...
00:25:44 <sbp> at least it comes after the function name then
00:26:02 <Arnia> hmm
00:26:08 <sbp> dunno. might be one of those "anything is better than what we got" situations
00:26:12 <Arnia> but would get confusing if the decorator took arguments
00:26:15 <sbp> note how this then parallels classes too
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00:26:33 <sbp> well not really, because decorators are basically inheritance for functions anyway
00:26:40 <sbp> so kinda makes sense to me to have a similar syntax to that
00:26:55 <Arnia> ... if you view inheritance as being like metaprogramming with closures
00:26:57 <sbp> I think somebody proposed to put in an -> or something
00:27:02 <Arnia> which... is a possible viewpoint actually
00:27:10 <Arnia> but fits more with prototype OO than class OO
00:27:18 <sbp> yeah...
00:27:32 <Arnia> maybe it is that they adopted class OO that's the problem
00:27:40 <Arnia> if they'd gone for prototype, the language would be cleaner
00:27:56 <MaienM> what is the difference?
00:28:21 <Arnia> MaienM: prototype OO is functional OO
00:28:28 <sbp> with prototypes you just clone an initial instance to make new ones
00:28:33 <sbp> there is no class definition as such
00:28:39 <sbp> just an instance that others take after
00:28:40 <MaienM> ah, right
00:29:00 <Arnia> Python's semantics seem oddly in the middle
00:29:06 <sbp> I found this a bit of a crap to implement when I tried it
00:29:15 <sbp> I really need to look up methods for prototype implementation
00:29:18 <MaienM> so instead of each object being an instance of the type that is the class, each is a copy of one instance of a generic object type, right?
00:29:26 <sbp> cloning = expensive, in my mind
00:29:31 <sbp> somebody must have solved this...
00:29:37 <Arnia> sbp: you don't clone everything
00:29:42 <Arnia> sbp: you use obscuration
00:29:43 <sbp> MaienM: right
00:29:58 <Arnia> so you follow the clone chain
00:30:01 <sbp> just point back in a chain and then modify what needs modifying, yeah
00:30:14 <sbp> but I somehow managed to make even that suck, in memory tests
00:30:25 <Arnia> impressive...
00:30:37 <Arnia> Pluvo?
00:30:55 <sbp> yeah
00:31:18 <Arnia> anyway, to see techniques for prototype OO implementation look at current Javascript and Scheme compilers
00:31:43 * Arnia wonders if you could use a Javascript VM for Scheme...
00:31:57 <Arnia> the languages are quite similar
00:34:08 * sbp tries to find the Pluvo prototype stuff
00:34:53 <sbp> hmm. I didn't chain at all
00:34:57 <sbp> guess that would be the problem then
00:35:03 <sbp> but I thought I implemented chain lookups!
00:35:04 <Arnia> How did you do it?
00:35:14 <sbp> I... you might want to look away now
00:35:17 <sbp> this is quite brutal
00:35:18 <sbp> proto, args = args
00:35:19 <sbp> proto = proto.copy()
00:35:26 <Arnia> ...
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00:35:46 <Arnia> I wonder whether you could use supercombinator compilation with Javascript if you used something like Caja
00:35:58 <Arnia> and whether it would be effective
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00:36:15 <Arnia> .wik supercombinator
00:36:16 <phenny> "A supercombinator is a mathematical expression which is fully-bound and self-contained." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercombinator
00:36:26 <Arnia> .g supercombinator javascript
00:36:27 <phenny> Arnia: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1864
00:36:42 <Arnia> ooh, haven't looked at LtU for a while
00:37:39 <Arnia> hm
00:37:46 <Arnia> oh well, might do a search another time
00:38:11 <sbp> Anton van Straaten's reply is interesting
00:39:33 <Arnia> Think of a supercombinator compilation strategy as like compiling but with memoization
00:39:55 <Arnia> sort of like constant folding but taken to an extreme
00:40:21 <Arnia> It is how GHC works, for example
00:44:33 * Arnia stares at a mass of javascript and gently weeps
00:47:52 * MaienM offers Arnia a (unused) tissue
00:47:58 *** MaienM is now known as MaienM|Sleep
00:48:21 <MaienM|Sleep> and with that, I'm off
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02:28:22 <[bjoern]> phenny, tell sbp Hey sbp, I found this thing that's perfect for work, church, and meeting the parents, see http://www.hussyhats.com/
02:28:22 <phenny> [bjoern]: I'll pass that on when sbp is around.
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06:43:15 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's jeanniecool!
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14:31:34 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's cre8radix!
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16:59:22 <Monty> Thank goodness, nwalsh is back!
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20:09:46 <Monty> yo cre8radix!
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20:09:53 <Monty> howdy, ammok
20:11:32 <cre8radix> heya Monty
20:11:33 <Monty> in columbus
20:11:52 <cre8radix> ok... heya monty in columbus
20:11:56 <Monty> mothers's hardcore company puts his hands on JPG's succulent Master System?
20:13:05 <cre8radix> yeah, monty, shoula hidden yer pornmag better than ya did
20:13:07 <Monty> .t http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0301727/
20:13:16 <cre8radix> should,a even
20:20:26 <ammok> announce an alternative for www.exploit-db.com and milw0rm.com
20:23:23 <ammok> anyone?
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21:09:32 <Monty> Speak of the devil, it's [[sroracle]]!
21:09:46 <[[sroracle]]> hey Monty
21:09:46 <Monty> What does that suggest to you ?
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21:44:36 <[bjoern]> countdown
21:44:36 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 50, 10, 3, 1, 1, 3. Your target is 680. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
21:44:53 <[bjoern]> .c (10+3)*(50+1+1)
21:44:53 <phenny> (10 + 3) * (50 + 1 + 1) = 676
21:45:03 <[bjoern]> .c (10+3)*(50+3)
21:45:03 <phenny> (10 + 3) * (50 + 3) = 689
21:45:07 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
21:45:08 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 94 milliseconds. I found all 4 solutions in about 109 milliseconds.
21:45:10 <Monty> ibot ((1 + 1)*3*3 + 50)*10
21:45:10 <phenny> (((1 + 1) * 3 * 3) + 50) * 10 = 680
21:45:18 <[bjoern]> I was coming to that
21:45:20 <[bjoern]> countdown
21:45:20 <Monty> One large one and five small numbers: 50, 1, 4, 4, 7, 3. Your target is 211. You have thirty seconds, tick, tock, tick, tock...
21:45:35 <[bjoern]> .c 4*(50+3) - 1
21:45:35 <phenny> (4 * (50 + 3)) - 1 = 211
21:45:50 <Monty> Duh dum, duh dum, duh-da-da-dum! Your 30 seconds are up!
21:45:52 <Monty> I found a solution in approximately 0 milliseconds. I found all 338 solutions in about 15 milliseconds.
21:45:53 <Monty> ibot 50*4 + 4 + 7
21:45:54 <phenny> (50 * 4) + 4 + 7 = 211
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23:05:12 <BigJibby> Monty, I found all 339 solutions in 14 milliseconds!
23:05:14 <Monty> Shockwave is fantastic for 1.
23:05:43 <BigJibby> Monty, for 1 what?
23:05:46 <Monty> d8uv: no native access was very tiny, and Machines
23:06:03 <BigJibby> Monty, that's what she said!
23:06:05 <Monty> meanwhile I always with curl, no?
23:18:08 <sbp> what have I told you before about verbs Monty?
23:18:11 <Monty> smelly leather scrapes anal newsreading :(
23:18:28 <sbp> didn't quite put it like THAT...
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23:59:24 <jetx> monty++
23:59:25 <Monty> s/tend/lean/